By rico, suave, December 24 at 3:53 pm

” That does NOT mean I am satisfied that first responders are being adequately, let alone generously, taken care of!”

“Fix the problem for everybody or nobody. That’s only fair.”

Cool. So you are saying you won’t be “satisfied” until it is fixed? And then, only in a fair, “everybody or nobody” Fashion?

So you are for guaranteed medical care for all?

Or are you saying we cannot help the 911 responders, or we’d have to help everyone?

Arraya, to continue to insist that there were hi-jacked planes, hi-jackers turning off transponders, warnings from foreign sources, shows that you have yet realized what actually happened.  Odd, because you are so close with your mention of Able Danger and have so many other pieces.  I’m sure that you are aware that the military has been able to remote control specially-equipped passenger planes since at least the early sixties.  You must also be aware that our intelligence spooks often plant stories in the compliant foreign press as part of their usual dirty tricks.  And you must also be aware of the other US military operations that day, Vigilant Warrior and Vigilant Guardian [US Red Team (bad guys like the CIA’s Mohammed Attah) vs. US Blue Team (good guys)] among other overlapping exercises that involved…  wait for it!  Hi-jacked Passenger Planes used as missiles. Most military personnel would believe that they were involved in a military exercise, and who is going to open their mouth to admit they were involved in a massive fraud?  Only a few key people would be needed to allow the safeguards to drop away. Cheney’s comment in front of Inhofe is a clue as to who was giving orders, who was among those key people, the real perps.  Add military-grade thermate, compliant TV stations and TV newsreaders, blame the CIA’s former asset Osama “Bourne” Laden, and the show is on while the US grabs the oil fields lay the pipelines and grow the poppies while the US taxpayer is made to pay the bills and supply the kids to be killed. 

But here’s the rub:  There’s no plane at the Pentagon (but a nice hole in the newly-reinforced wall they just finished building there), and none in the hole they dug in Pennsylvania (but there was one blown out of the sky into little pieces over the Pennsylvania countryside), and the only people who saw passenger planes hitting the WTC saw them on TV.

England’s recalcitrant population, largely against foreign military adventures, was treated to their own state-sponsored act of false-flag terrorism with their 7/7 “bombings” in London, that, like ours, occurred right in the middle of and exactly corresponding to emergency “drills” they were having THAT DAY at THOSE LOCATIONS involving JUST THOSE subways and buses to make sure England’s population (and the rest of us) got the message.  Guess all those CCTV cameras and x-ray machines and check-points and loss of privacy and habeas corpus and due process won’t keep you safe after all, not when the State decides it needs a pretext for war. 

Think the US/Anglo empire would not kill its own citizens to incite the population to war?  Think the US would refrain from false-flag operations?  Think the US is opposed to terrorism?  Then you do not know your own history.

As if the repub/baggers needed more bad publicity on this. One of their major mouths from the fringe Batshitcrazy Shelley Bachmann- she of the family farm taking a quarter of a mill in subsidy payments- terms this a “new entitlement program”. As always it’s Interesting how, to the right, these men and women were all “heroes"until it came time to compensate them for injuries or illnesses sustained as a result of their heroism then they become expendable.

Well of course 911 was allowed to happen and given technical assistance.

1998: Future 9/11 Commission Executive Director Zelikow Says
‘Public Assumptions’ Shape Views of History
In his opening remarks at a conference on contemporary political history
organized by the Miller Center of Public Affairs at the University of Virginia,
future 9/11 Commission Executive Director Philip Zelikow emphasizes that the
public understanding of history is shaped by what are sometimes referred to as
“public myths.” “[U]nderstanding contemporary political history is extremely
important and constantly alive in public discourse. ...  ...’ Such
presumptions are beliefs (1) thought to be true (although not necessarily
known to be true with certainty), and (2) shared in common within the relevant
political community. The sources for such presumptions are both personal
(from direct experience) and vicarious (from books, movies, and myths).”
Zelikow says that public assumptions often grow out of “searing events”:
“particularly ‘searing’ or ‘molding’ events take on ‘transcendent’ importance
and, therefore, retain their power even as the experiencing generation passes
from the scene.

Zelikow is signatory of PNAC as well as the rest of the neocons

From 1999

“While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate
justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf
transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein ...
“the process of [military] transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change,
is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a
new Pearl Harbor ..

Able Danger was the CIA op that tracked and identified the plot at least as early
as 98.  Whether the helped guide it in any way is unclear.  But intelligence does
have a long history of working with extremists to achieve geopolitical goals
going back a long way.

The FBI investigation into the flight schools was squashed by senior
management as well as John O’Neil’s investigations into the Saudi connections
causing him to quite the FBI.  Ironically, he used is connections to get a job as
head of security for the trade center, he started in sept 2001 and died the day
of the attack.

When the Bush administration came into office the first thing the did was refocus
intelligence away from AQ.  Wolfowitz actually told Richard clark that they were
“nothing to worry about”.  Remember, Wolfowitz just openl stated the need for a “new pearl arbor” to garner public support for an aggressive ME reconfiguration.

Warnings came from 15 countries, some of them very specific and at least five
FBI investigations were, coincidentally, squashed - Along with a multitude of
war games being play same day which scrambled jets to Canada and evacuated
of America’s spy satellite control center (NRO).

The hijackers inexplicab ly turned off their transponder signals. Which meant,
the planes remained visible to radar; the transponders merely ID’d. “Vigilant
Guardian”: the live-fly simulation of hijackings in the US Northeast staged by
the Joint Chiefs and NORAD the very morning of the attacks caused, at one
point on 9/11, as many as 22 aircraft appeared to be hijacked. Suddenly, the
virtue, now verging on necessity, of switching off the transponders becomes
evident. With loss of transponder signals the planes became bogies, and
discrimina ting real from simulated hijackings became next to impossible .

Gen. Ralph Eberhart, commander of NORAD on 9/11 was promoted to head the
new “Northern Command” after the biggest defense failure of all time

FF:

Sorry if I misunderstood you. Glad you think they deserve it. I’m sure they’ll appreciate it. 

But having to spend many years suing when the person may well be DEAD is insane.  My brother had a WC lawsuit…took 5 YEARS to get to settlement.  That’s a good thing?  Please explain how. (and his union really helped protect him during that time)

Freddy:

Of course 9/11 didn’t happen in a vacuum. I’ll agree that the attackers were responding to our baleful (in their eyes) presence in the Mideast. So, then we should have just said, “Ok, we’re even,” and let it pass? With that logic, you could say we brought Pearl Harbor on ourselves by refusing to sell Japan any more scrap metal for their war machine, or because the American-led Flying Tigers helped the Chinese against Japan.

...where you have to SUE just for a shot at proper compensation.

Next time I’ll read your ENTIRE comment.

But still, that’s the way our system works. They shouldn’t need an Act of Congress. It should be more easily settled in court. Unless, of course, you think politicians should be allowed to earn brownie points from the Unions.

Inherit The Wind

Where did I say they didn’t deserve it? I specifically said that they did.

From my earlier comment:

The workers are entitled to the money, either way. The question is, where is it going to come from, The City of New York, or the Federal Government?

Please DO NOT misrepresent my position.

Thank you.

rico, suave

Sure, it’s a bit of a stretch, but you can’t deny a good part of the cause of the 9-11 attacks was blowback for our operations in the Middle East through, at least, the past 50 years. Whether it’s sending money to Israel, installing a ruler in Iran, or supporting the Saudi Prince, America has at least some blood on its hands for the 9-11 attacks. The US has no right to interfere with the internal workings of other sovereign nations. Trade, is different. Manipulating and controlling governments is a different story. And I bet some hot-shot lawyer could make a pretty damned good case.

As far as wounded veterans, 1st responders and other public safety professionals, we as a society owe these persons open ended health care for injuries sustained while in actions defending the populace including those doctors, laywers and insurance pricks who would otherwise try to deny it to them.
************

You forgot the ultimate pricks: The politicians who use their sacrifice for their political and financial enhancement, and to advance illegal wars and excursions abroad, and to curtail our freedoms.

Rico:
You fix a problem one piece at a time, and start with what is most pressing.  You know that.

Like I said Rico the jury is still out and the numbers are still growing as the evidence still is comming in.  The official investigation was a farce and another is required to put this issue to rest, this time with public oversight.

http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll

As far as wounded veterans, 1st responders and other public safety professionals, we as a society owe these persons open ended health care for injuries sustained while in actions defending the populace including those doctors, laywers and insurance pricks who would otherwise try to deny it to them.

It is the focusing on the WTC victims without the thought of others who have died violently or others who died a slow agonizing death.

What about the girl who dies at the hands of a rapist during the act?  Does her family get a million dollars of terrorist money as the victims of the WTC did? 

Rico is right.  All victims should be treated equally.  And remember, First responders choose those careers.  No one held a gun to their head and told them to go out and risk their lives.  Just as no one told that construction worker to work on a monster cliff side scaling rocks off to build a dam and whose sling fails and he sails to his death.

No, Pat, it’s not. Maybe the “why” is up for debate, but the “who” is not.

Just one more strong arguement for nationalized medicine.

Capt Suave, the jury is still out on “who did it”.

ITW:

“I think that people who, in times of extreme crisis, risk their lives and health for their fellow Americans DESERVE more than just our gratitude and typical, ineffective WC and DI”

Wait. I completely agree. But not passing this bill to help the WTC responders is not the same as “cutting them off”. And how does this bill help firemen in Des Moines? How does it fix WC and DI for everyone? That does NOT mean I am satisfied that first responders are being adequately, let alone generously, taken care of!

The scale of the WTC tragedy should not be justification for special treatment of the first responders. Should soldiers wounded on the beaches on D-Day have gotten better benefits than those wounded later, simply because they went through a more historically significant and horrific battle?

One more time, the fireman in Des Moines is just as dead or disabled as the one in Manhattan for having done the same job. And to the young children who have lost a father, the knowledge that he was one of hundreds killed is no comfort at all. How do you explain to the child of the Des Moines fireman that her father won’t be getting the same treatment as a fireman in New York, simply because her dad was at the wrong fire?

Fix the problem for everybody or nobody. That’s only fair.

Just another fire?  When was the last time nearly 3000 Americans died in one place? D-Day? Antietam?  The environmental conditions created by the unplanned collapse of two of the tallest buildings in the world in a confined and unprotected space was unprecedented.  It was nothing like the controlled demolition of far, FAR smaller buildings.

Then thousands of construction workers descended on lower Manhattan within hours to lend their expertise, and numbers to the rescue effort. In this attack on our nation, they heeded the call.

And many paid for it. Dearly.

Firefighting is a necessary service.  Yet it’s still one of the most dangerous professions in the world, up there with pearl diving. 

Not to take care of firefighters injured in the line of duty is morally reprehensible.  It’s like not taking care of soldiers injured in the line of duty.

Oh! Wait!  Turns out under Bush we weren’t doing THAT either—that men and women injured in the line of duty weren’t being properly taken care of by the V.A.  And they STILL aren’t—those with brain injuries are being referred to private charitable institution funded by a billionaire with a conscience.

See, unlike Rico or FF, I think that people who, in times of extreme crisis, risk their lives and health for their fellow Americans DESERVE more than just our gratitude and typical, ineffective WC and DI, where you have to SUE just for a shot at proper compensation.

But 9/11 heroes and NYFD ball caps are now passe. They aren’t “sexy” to the Re-thugs anymore, so…time to cut them off!

Freddy:

If you taught your kid to shoot a gun and a decade later he went nuts and killed his boss, would you be culpable or liable for the murder?

For the argument, I’ll concede that the CIA taught bin Laden to blow things up. But I won’t concede they did it thinking they were creating an accomplice to help them in a future crime against the US.

@Rico
“You have no idea what Rico thinks”
My point exactly - The thinking is totally obscure.
it’s about morality - not politics.

rico, suave

OK. Let’s look at it this way: The 9-11 attacks were “blowback”, and “unintended consequences” for our involvements in the Middle East, particularly with the Mujaheddin in the late 70s. If bin Laden did receive training and/or funding from the CIA, that makes the US governemnt culpable or liable in the 9-11 attacks.

The republicans not supporting this bill only proves that 9/11 was, and always will
be for republicans, a political myth that they use to promote their own agenda. To
republicans, 9/11 was never about strengthening America, it was just a way to
finally have a “reason” to invade other countries and go after supposed
“terrorists”—to promote the myth and shove it down our throats. They are not
interested in helping the U.S. and good Americans, unless it is to their advantage.
It’s neo-conservatism 101: promote the myth and use that myth to your OWN
advantage, because the myth is what matters, not the people that the myth affects
and destroys. Republicans and neo-conservatives will do whatever they can to
destroy the lives of anyone, and everyone, in order to keep their money and
denigrate the masses.

Freddy:

Let it go. Please. Extremist Muslims did it in the name of Allah and jihad. Period. Let it go.

RayLan:

I’m sorry you can’t understand that I’m leaving politics completely out of this discussion. It’s about a fire and a building collapse. No more, no less. Leave the conspiracies for another discussion. You have no idea what Rico thinks.

Rico thinks the enormity of the difference between 9/11 and a Molotov cocktail comes down to press coverage. He generously demonstrates how his broadness of mind is far beyond any possible rational education.

However, it speaks to all of us, as a nation, that we are unwilling or unable to take care of our sick and infirmed.

No, it speaks to us as a people, that we must rely on an institution based on coercion (government) to take care of our sick and infirmed. But that’s part of how government maintains control and power over its citizens.

“You can’t kill the beast while sucking at its teat.”

(Well, maybe you can.)

rico, suave

There’s always the possibility that the federal government had some role in the 9-11 attacks. That would, technically, make them, at least, partially liable. But I never said that.

RayLan:

Let’s say you were sitting in your house and a neo-Nazi anti-abortion wacko threw a Molotov cocktail through your window because he just hated your guts. Big headlines in the newspaper. A fireman responding to your fire suffered major burns and chronic lung problems.

At the same time, your neighbor’s house across the street suffered a kitchen grease fire. Small note on page B6 of tomorrow’s paper. A fireman responding to his fire suffered major burns and chronic lung problems.

Should the FEDERAL government offer your fireman special treatment because your fire was the result of a political hate crime?

The fact that airplanes caused the destruction, as opposed to a grease fire in the kitchen of Windows on the World restaurant, is totally irrelevant to the subsequent suffering of the WTC responders, and they should not be specially compensated.

Right - Two planes crashing into towers over 100 stories tall isn’t signficantly different from other office building fires. What’s all the fuss about?

I feel about 9/11 first responders as I do about wounded soldiers, you volunteered for that job, you got paid to do it, you knew what would happen to you if you were hurt on the job (especially you military guys) so why is it a shock that you have been tossed aside like so much used kleenex?

However, it speaks to all of us, as a nation, that we are unwilling or unable to take care of our sick and infirmed. But hey, that’s the new (old) repug/liberetarian way, pull yourself by your bootstraps you lazy scumbags and stop expecting society to take care of you, where do you think you are, Europe?

Fucking commies!

I’m going to go waaaaaay out on a limb here.

Environmentally speaking,and from a fire/rescue/recovery/cleanup perspective, how did the WTC differ from any other major big building disaster?

From a strictly clinical point of view, what you had was a major building fire which police and firemen responded to as they would any other such event. In most cases, no one is hurt or killed. In some cases, there is injury and death. In this case hundreds died horribly. After a fire and collapse, the debris is cleaned up. Again, apart from the collossal and tragic scale of the disaster, from a technical/material point of view, how did the WTC differ from any other highrise building fire and collapse.

With this bill we are required to believe that the first responders were exposed to environmental conditions unique in the history of building fires/ collapses, and should therefore be specially and uniquely compensated. How do a fireman or policeman in Des Moines, say, injured or sickened from responding to a major office building fire differ? The fact that hundreds have been affected as opposed to a few is no rationale for this bill.

Maani

Let me explain to you the difference between Worker’s Comp and disability, in NJ. I’m sure NY is very similar.

Disability is a state run program, similar to unemployment insurance. If you break your leg playing a game of backyard football, and can not work, disability will pay you a certain percentage of your average weekly salary for up to 26 weeks. It is funded through both employee and employer contributions.

Worker’s Comp, is a type of liability insurance a business purchases from a private insurance company. It protects the employer from lawsuits by employees who are injured on the job, similar to the way general liability insurance protects a business from lawsuits from clients, and other non-employee citizens. It is similar to automobile liability insurance. There may, or may not be, upper limits. If the award of a settlement by jury is more than the limit, the employer is responsible for the difference. Liability on a worker’s on-the-job injury covers the entire cost of all medical care, plus, compensation for pain and suffering if there was any negligence on the part of the employer. There may also be punitive damages awarded.

If the total amount of the liabilities is greater than the limit of coverage, in the case of the 9-11 responders, the City of New York is responsible for the difference, since they were City employees. So, now that I think about it, this fund is more of a bailout to the City of NY, than the Worker’s Comp insurance company. The workers are entitled to the money, either way. The question is, where is it going to come from, The City of New York, or the Federal Government?

Maani

(You may be confusing WC with disability.)

No. I live in one of the few states with disability. But that’s the problem. Laws vary from state to state. Disability is for people who are injured that can not work. Worker’s Comp is for people who are hurt on the job, and can not work. See the difference?

If you want to play politics (R vs D), fine. I choose neither. If you want a solution to help people who are hurt on the job, I say, let them sue the insurance company. That’s what it is there for, and that’s why employers purchase it.  If you want to make changes in the judicial system to make it easier for hurt workers to sue, fine, let’s talk about that.

If you want to talk handouts, the line forms over there

————————————————————————>

Fat Freddy:

Actually, you are not entirely correct.  Workers Comp is a limited resource; i.e., one can only collect a limited amount over a limited time period.  (You may be confusing WC with disability.)  This bill - as unconscionably castrated as it was by the GOP - will provide a much greater amount of compensation over a longer time period.

That said, the evisceration of the bill by the GOP is particularly repugnant given that they had no trouble ramming through a tax cut bill that included EIGHT HUNDRED billion in tax cuts for the wealthy (which are NOT paid for by revenue offsets, and will thus add to the deficit - which the GOP is ALSO (hypocritically) screaming about), while removing THREE billion (from an original total of $7.4 billion, and then a pared total of $6.2 billion) from a bill that was paid for entirely through revenue offsets.

This has got to be the single most obnoxious thing the repugnicans have done since Obama became president - and they did it to people who not only really need it, but truly earned it, since at least SOME of their conditions could have been avoided if Christine Toad Witless had not proclaimed on 9/13 that “the air is safe to breathe.”

Peace.

In this use-it-up-and-throw-it-away “culture,” why would anybody among the domesticated peoples expect not to be subject-to the same cynical exploitation to which they so slap-happily subject the rest of our Living Arrangement?  What goes around does indeed come around.  It is oftentimes much bigger, harder, and faster on returning, too, because of all the amplifiers built-into ‘the system.’

Anyhow, apparently some eleventh-hour “compromise” was reached, and a reduced amount has been appropriated for meeting this particular need among the “heroes” and others affected.  Meantime, of course, there are and will remain unaddressed more-and-more dire CONsequences of the “civilization” disease’s relentless progression toward its DEAD END “prognosis.”

Not only is “money” no Medicine, however, it is probably one of the most destructive agents of the disease process.

HokaHey!

A Christian nation? Shun the obvious question: What would Christ have done? Granted, Christ had the powers. Nonetheless, a gesture of kindness when appropriate is more than befitting the Yuletide.

I’m appalled at the alacrity to push for 26 billion in Chinese debt alloted to 6600 of the wealthiest with no strings attached other than a pretty red ribbon.

It’s my understanding that these responders were/are covered by Workman’s Comp insurance. That’s where the problem lies. There was a time when Worker’s Comp was the best healthcare you could get, but it’s been turned into “managed care”, with co-pays and deductibles, and all the other bullshit that goes along with HMOs. Another problem, is when you are in a Union, you have to work a minimum number of hours to keep your company healthcare benefits. If you are injured and can’t work, you lose your health insurance. Your recourse is to sue the Worker’s Comp provider, and that could take years, and, of course, the lawyers get their “cut”.

So, this Bill is sort of a “backdoor bailout” for the Worker’s Comp insurance company, if I am reading this correctly. However, I do understand that these people need the money now. I would rather see the insurance companies forced to pay, now, rather than being bailed out on a future lawsuit.

A friend of mine is an Iron Worker, and he went through similar problems after his fall. Eventually, he did win a lawsuit and recouped all of the money he put out, plus some. However, laws vary from state to state. Why the insurance companies won’t put the money out up front, is beyond me. The more a person suffers before the actual lawsuit gets to court, is the more sympathetic a plaintiff appears to a jury, thus, the higher the award.

In fact, I do not understand the Republican’s opposition to the Bill. It’s just the
kind of thing that both sides of the aisle normally jump on.. But I’m glad it isn’t
being driven through Congress on the usual glory train that’s brought out for these occasions!

We need universal, public option, Medicare type health care for all.. Remember?
If we had it then those responders.. and everybody else including very many not
specifically identified in their claims and lawsuits would be covered.

This bill is a specific appropriation for yet another temporary fix for a subset of
Americans.. they are deserving Americans, great. When it comes to quality,
affordable, available health care we shouldn’t be picking and choosing who
gets it.

And about the disability and compensation parts of the bill.. Nonsense.. If the
claimants have any case for mistreatment or injury on the job let them sue the
responsible parties. Sue them into the stone age!  It would be great to get guys
like Giuliani and Bush in a courtroom under oath! Though I guess there is some
law that prevents that happening.. Let the Congress fix that!

I won’t say the bill in question is a bad bill.. it’s just not a great bill and it’s a
temporary salve on a larger problem. Want to further assuage our national conscience over the botched cleanup? .. and 9/11? Get the profiteering corporations out of health care.. if Congress has found some billions that need to be spent.. use that as a start on universal health coverage.

Adios!

This is classic Rep hypocrisy - Dare to critize the war - or resist condemning all of Islam for the 9/11 holocaust and we are found un-patriotic - out come the flags and choirs of ‘God Bless America’.
As soon as some hard cash is called for to follow up on these nationalist tear-jerkers - the true colors show - callous asshole greed.