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Sarah Palin, Neocon Messiah

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Posted on Mar 30, 2010
Sarah Palin
AP / Jae C. Hong

Sarah Palin speaks at the “Showdown in Searchlight” tea party rally in Searchlight, Nev., on Saturday.

By Robert Scheer

Judge them by their enemies. More evidence that Barack Obama might be shaping up as a good president is that Norman Podhoretz hates him so much. In a Wall Street Journal column Monday the guru of the neoconservatives declared: “I would rather be ruled by the Tea Party than by the Democratic Party, and I would rather have Sarah Palin sitting in the Oval Office than Barack Obama.”

I know that does not properly address all of the serious questions raised about the Obama presidency by progressives, myself included, and as of today we must now add offshore oil drilling to the list. But it is somewhat reassuring that the surviving father of the neocon movement should be left so totally unglued. He is joined in this embrace of the Palin rage by Bill Kristol, whose late father, Irving, was Podhoretz’s comrade in the long march from the far left to the far right. That shift brought the neoconservatives to the pinnacle of power in the Bush administration before they flamed out over the distortions of fact and logic they peddled as justification for the invasion of Iraq.

Among other things—and this was particularly important for Podhoretz, who for 35 years had edited Commentary, a leading journal in the Jewish community—the elimination of Saddam Hussein was supposed to leave Israel more secure. Instead, just the opposite has occurred as a consequence of the vastly increased power of Iran in the region thanks to the elimination of its most feared local adversary. Any effort to contain the power of Iran has been compromised by the leading role of the disciples of the Iranian ayatollahs in the politics of Iraq.

Obama had opposed that war, but he has certainly done his bit to carry on the Bush policy and has furthered it in Afghanistan as well. There is no sign of Obama abandoning those failed adventures, and his fitful efforts to contain Iran while negotiating a much needed settlement of the Israel-Palestine conflict are quite consistent with those of previous administrations. Indeed, the U.S. policy agenda for the region seems to be set by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who, as her warm reception at the recent AIPAC conference indicates, has long been regarded as a fervent friend of Israel.

Indeed, from health care, the banking bailout and on to Mideast peace, it is difficult to find a single policy proposal from Obama that Bill and Hillary Clinton had not both previously embraced. So why the particularly strident animus toward Obama? The answer lies in that fear so common to the tea party core—that Obama is a false prophet leading the good God-fearing folk astray. Since Podhoretz claims to be writing out of the Jewish tradition he does not embrace the possibility of Obama being the Antichrist, but his language is as descriptively bizarre.

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In a WSJ article from last September headlined “Why Are Jews Liberals?” which is also the title of his latest book, Podhoretz complained bitterly, “One of the most extraordinary features of Barack Obama’s victory over John McCain was his capture of 78% of the Jewish vote.” What followed was a self-hating tirade against his own: “Jews are by far the most liberal of any group in America.” In support of that view he quotes the sociologist Nathan Glazer, who argued that Jews, as opposed to any other immigrant group in America, have ignored their improving economic status and instead consistently supported “increased government spending, expanded benefits to the poor and lower classes, greater regulations on business, and the power of organized labor.”

What a great testament to the enduring decency of Jewish values that they have proved so capable of embracing social goals that transcend narrow class interest. What a wonderful refutation of historical anti-Semitism that Jews so consistently ignore personal economic gain to serve the larger good. Not so in the eyes of Podhoretz, who was immensely disappointed that the commitment of Jews to those enlightened views did not dissipate with the nomination of Obama but rather increased somewhat.

He bemoans the fact that the vast majority of Jews did not share his fear that Obama was too liberal or anti-Israel, but instead of chalking that up to an honest disagreement he invokes the language of the devil’s deception: “I am hoping against hope that the exposure of Mr. Obama as a false messiah will at last open the eyes of my fellow Jews to the correlative falsity of the political creed he so perfectly personifies and to which they have for so long been so misguidedly loyal.”

So what does that make Sarah Palin—the true messiah?

Click here to check out Robert Scheer’s book,
“The Great American Stickup: How Reagan Republicans and Clinton Democrats Enriched Wall Street While Mugging Main Street.”


Keep up with Robert Scheer’s latest columns, interviews, tour dates and more at www.truthdig.com/robert_scheer.



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By nemesis2010, April 12, 2010 at 12:34 pm Link to this comment

@ Calabashe:

It’s all a misnomer because all the land has been their homeland—for almost 2 millennia—until Europe decided to fix its prejudice against Jews problem by passing it on to others who hate them even more. But what the hey; they’re non-white and non-Christian so who really GAF?

And we all know why Israel doesn’t define its borders. It is determined to seize all the land that “god gave to them.”

Any revenge seeking Palestinian need only be patient and do nothing because now that a precedent has been set it won’t be long before the Jews’ new found lovers—the evangelical Christians—will make the same claims for the same patch of god-forsaken ground. They’ll trump the Jews’ claim using the Book of the Revelation—written by an unknown Jew-hating Jew—which says that real Jews are only those that believe in Jeebus.

I can see it all now; the messiah—Sarah Palin—mounted on her white horse, leading the crusade for the holy land and Jeebus, driving both Jew and Muslim into the sea. They say that history repeats itself, do they not?

Religion is the bane of humanity!

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By nemesis2010, April 12, 2010 at 12:32 pm Link to this comment

There you go again. You’re putting labels on me that simply do not stick. I haven’t made a single derogatory statement against Jews. I haven’t made a statement or inferred that Israel should give the land back or anything like that.

All I’ve done here was to ask two simple questions that exposed you and your ilk’s bias for that particular segment of human’s known as Jews and the act of establishing a modern day Israel based on such idiotic reasoning as “god gave them the land” or “Europeans have a Jew problem that it can’t handle so we’ll pass the problem on to the Muslims because they’ll know what to do with them.” There’s no way that there wasn’t going to be problems.

As for my vacating my house and “moving back” to where my ancestors came from, that would require a genius to figure out because I’ve one Jewish grandmother, one aboriginal grandmother and two Irish grandfathers. All have been dispossessed and subjected to imperial tyranny. The bigger question is what does that make me? Am I Jewish, aboriginal, Irish, a real Amurikan, or just a big brained ape? When one considers the entire family tree we are more like Heinz ketchup; 57 varieties! I prefer big brained ape myself.

You’re a bigot ITW! You fit the definition. By your own statements here it is easily inferred that you have no qualms dispossessing brown Muslims in favor of Jewry but get all tied up in knots when your own illogic is applied to you personally.

I’ve simply questioned the reasoning behind the establishment of modern day Israel and how a Palin presidency might affect our foreign policy in that region and you’ve gone absolutely berserk! You’ve labeled me a racist, a bigot, a Cossack, and a number of other things. None of it fits. You don’t even know me.

Show me—if you’re able to—a single derogatory statement that I’ve made against Jews.

The problem with Messiahs is that they’re not!

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By Calabashe, April 10, 2010 at 6:48 pm Link to this comment

Below is a link to a Ha’aretz report that the IOF will now begin mass “deportations” of West Bank Palestinians, which is a misnomer since one is not deported from one’s home land but rather exiled.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1162075.html

Un-friggin-believable!

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By Calabashe, April 10, 2010 at 2:40 pm Link to this comment

LLL       OOOOO       LLL
LLL       OOO OOO     LLL
LLL       OOO   OOO     LLL
LLL       OOO   OOO     LLL
LLLLLLLL   OOO OOO     LLLLLLLL
LLLLLLLL     OOOOO       LLLLLLLL

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By JDmysticDJ, April 10, 2010 at 2:08 pm Link to this comment

I despise intolerant people. People who refuse to agree with my superior pronouncements regarding all issues are intolerant “@$$#oles.” I find them to be intolerable, and I have no tolerance for them.

I do not suffer fools lightly. Nor do I suffer smart people lightly. In fact, I don’t suffer anybody lightly. They’re all a bunch of @$$#oles.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 10, 2010 at 11:10 am Link to this comment

Nemesis:

I’m not going to waste any more of my time on you.

Apologists for the “Cossacks”, like you are ALWAYS around to justify what inevitably turns into yet another pogrom.  Now that there’s a nation that fights back, the vehemence and desire for a GIANT pogrom has become a psychopathic necessity for your kind.

If you are so determined to give back stolen land, then vacate your house and move to wherever your ancestors came from, because EVERY SQUARE INCH of America, Canada and Mexico—all of North America, was STOLEN and the people displaced.

Clean your own house first, hypocrite!

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By nemesis2010, April 10, 2010 at 10:58 am Link to this comment

@ ITW & Calabashe:

Actually, ITW, you are the bigot. Do you even know what the word means or do you just throw it out at anyone intrepid enough to expose your hypocrisy and duplicitous nature?

(Bigot: One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.)

I simply took your reasoning (?), applied that criteria to your own back yard, and the two of you get your panties all knotted up and start biotching like a couple of PMS deranged vaginas.

Apparently, neither one of you has a problem dispossessing people from their land as long as those being dispossessed aren’t you and yours. Your position on the “right” of the Israeli state to exist is ludicrous and you know it. Did anyone bother to ask the Palestinians what they thought about being dispossessed before doing it? Had those being dispossessed had a voice, European Jewry would still be in Europe or Israel would have been established in an area less problematic than ancient Canaan, Assyria, Philistia, Edom, Israel, Samaria or Judah.

The establishment of Israel is a hornet’s nest for humankind exactly because of the reasons that I have demonstrated here with two simple questions. If you attempt to defend that action with the U.N. mandate you are taking a stand that the U.N. is—in essence—the owner of the planet and can dispossess one people from a territory in favor of any other people it deems more worthy. Using your criteria the aboriginal peoples of the Americas have a much stronger case for territorial rights than the modern day Jews. People that both of you have claimed are nothing more than a religious group.

You have both stated that the term Jew does not denote nationality or race but rather a religious affiliation. You don’t get a nation because you are of a certain religious group. It simply doesn’t work that way. What’s to follow; Jehovah Witnessland and Apocalyptica? And don’t come here with the holocaust excuse; it’s estimated that over 90 million aboriginals were exterminated dispossessing them.

Your only other option is to fall back on the “god gave them the land” reason; which is to claim rights based on a higher authority. That’s the Palin position and one of the many reasons why a president Palin would be an even bigger disaster than the Bush/Cheny regime. Once one claims god—an imaginary psychopath—as the authority one then has to provide proof that:

1. There is a god
2. That the god that exists is the same psychopathic god of the Hebrews who supposedly gave the land as an inheritance forever…
or
3. Provide proof that whatever god it is, for example: the FSM, did indeed give the land in question to the people that now inhabit it
and
4. Get him/her/it to prove that he/she/it is indeed the owner of the planet and that he/she/it can evict people off of certain territories at will as there’s always the chance that there is an even higher god who trumps your god.

Not a very enviable position to be in. I can almost understand your having your panties all twisted up because they now match your convoluted positions.

The real problem with the establishment of the modern state of Israel is; by whose authority was it established? Once you agree that a certain body politic has the authority over territorial rights it retains that authority as long as it remains a body politic. It also sets a precedent that can, and usually does, return to bite you in the arse!

You clowns would be much better off with a “possession is 9/10ths of the law” defense. Of course the problem comes right back to bite you in the arse because the Palestinians were in possession of the land when it was wrenched from them.

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By Calabashe, April 9, 2010 at 4:22 pm Link to this comment

Christain – I can easily respect you your beliefs – the path you have chosen for yourself. It is noble. I too draw inspiration of the teachings of Christ as opposed to the dictates (dogma) of St Augustine.

You have a point in that if we all believed the same, there would be less conflict. I think it would be grand if we could even only respect the commonality of all our chosen paths as in “Do unto others …”

Problems arise when we highlight the differences in our chosen paths. For example, as stated below, I’m Agnostic when it comes to the ultimate patriarch theory. Yet I find no offence in the phrase “God bless you.” I even use it myself because I accept that that combination of sounds and syllables, above all, means well wishes.

I also regularly say, “gung hey fat choy” to Chinese friends and neighbors around the end of January and “eid mubarak,” to my Muslim friends and neighbors at the end of Ramadan, or “mosoltov” to Jews in my life, “hare Krishna” to local Hindus. The use of these words is just a small personal symbolic gesture that I hope conveys at least a respect for cultures and practices different than my own.

So to you, Christian, in an attempt to broaden understanding, I say a heartfelt, “Allahu akbar!”

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By Calabashe, April 9, 2010 at 3:33 pm Link to this comment

ITW - Good for you! Don’t ever let anyone push your buttons. There is a big difference between those who seek a legitimate discussion on points of view and those who’s only intent is get jollies from slapping pseudo intellectual nonsense in your face.

When one starts slapping you around - get out of their game cuz it ain’t gunna go no where no how ‘cept in a circle.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 9, 2010 at 2:25 pm Link to this comment

C96:
It’s not in the Torah.  But it is the result of interpretation of the Talmud, which is the commentaries on the Law and what it means in various situations.

Nemesis—I stand by what I posted, whether you read it all the way through or not.  You may not like it but I’m not interested in whether a bigot like you likes what I wrote.

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By christian96, April 9, 2010 at 12:58 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind—-Where in the Torah does it
mention the correct way to put on your socks and
shoes?  My God, I may be putting them on incorrectly!
God forbid!

The Road Map To Peace was layed out approx. 2,000
years ago by a carpenter’s son from Nazareth, Israel
named in Hebrew, Yeshua(Jesus in English). The road
is paved with LOVE. I know “love” has become an
alien concept lately but it use to exist.  If you
love your neighbor you won’t sleep with their spouse.
If you love your neighbor you won’t covet their
stuff(property, vehicle, ear-rings, toilet paper,
etc.) Yeshua taught us to forget about ourselves
and to concentrate on others.  Now, that’s a BIGGY!
If you listen to little children speak you will
hear the words “I, me, my, and mine” quite often.
When they become big kiddies called adults you still
hear the same words. Can you just try to imagine what
it might be like in Israel if the Israeli’s said
something like, “You know those Palestians are just
like me.  They eat, drink, talk, put on clothes,
use their toilets and sleep.  Today, I am
going to love them, forget about myself, and ask
them what they need and how might I help them?”
Ditto for the Palestians! They would say, “You know
those Israeli’s are just like me.  They eat, drink,
talk, put on clothes, use their toilets and sleep.
Today, I am going to love them, forget about myself,
and ask them what they need and how might I helpp
them?”  WOW!  You talk about a Road Map To Peace.
If all people would follow the teachings of Yeshua
we would have THE Road Map To Peace.  Not only Israel and Palestine. The Road Map To Peace could
pave the earth with love, kindness, gentleness,
forgiveness, denial of self and service to others.
If people would only listen but sadly 2,000 years
of history proves they won’t.  Like little children
they will continue to use words like “I, me, my, and
mine.”

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By nemesis2010, April 9, 2010 at 11:26 am Link to this comment

I’ll begin by saying that you, ITW, are completely wrong. I’m not an ”@$$#ole” (<- your vulgarity, not mine), bigot, or racist. I have been civil with both you and Calabashe only to have both of you resort to name calling and vulgarity. Calabashe, unless you’re George W. Bush, you cannot be the village idiot whose administration is responsible for the so-called Road Map to Peace. Duh and double DUH!

Furthermore, my questions have not been circular, leading or sophist. They are legitimate questions whose answers may come into play should that female George W. Bush ever be elected as president. Palin, like Dubya, is possessed of a Christian evangelical bias that will have an effect on foreign policy—especially with respect to foreign policy in the Middle East.

Your pirouetting around legitimate questions about the “Jews” has produced some interesting statements. Both of you have basically said that “Jew” doesn’t describe a nationality but rather a religious group. Calabashe went as far as to say a religious group with a sense of nationality.

Jews were what the people of the Kingdom of Judah were called. They were not Israelis. Israel ceased to exist as both a nation and people after the completion of the Assyrian invasion in about 720 BCE. That’s why religious nuts can make a fortune off of books about the “10 Lost Tribes of Israel.”

Jew was both a nationality and an indication of religious beliefs –a Bronze Age tribal religion with a psychopathic god named YHWH or Jehovah or the one who could not be named, which came to be known as Judaism. The “Hebrew” civil war was about religion and ascension rights to the throne. Please note that until the civil war those people that made up the 12 tribes were known as Hebrews. When they split they then named their separate kingdoms Israel and Judah. One nation and its people ceased to exist as an economy almost 3,000 years ago. The other ceased to exist as an economy almost 2,000 years ago.

My questions have been simple ones:

1. Is Jew a nationality or a race?

2. On what basis do these so-called people have a right to dispossess those who have possessed the land (Palestine) for almost 2 millennia?

Both of you have said that Jew is not a nationality. Both of you have said that it is term indicating religious beliefs. The modern rogue state isn’t even named Judah but rather Israel and its citizens are called Israelis. (Israel–IMO–is a rogue state because it refuses to define its borders; there are many reasons for it not wanting to do so.) So if I’m to accept both of your positions this is what I’m to believe is right and just: That the U.N can mandate that a religious group of mixed race and varied nationalities can lawfully dispossess a group of people—with a common religion, a sense of nationality, and probably with a much more common racial makeup than anything modern Jewry can provide—occupying a territory where a previous race of people who provide the origins of their modern day counterparts’ religious beliefs and sense of nationality once existed. Does that about sum it up? If so, I’ve a few more questions for you.

What would your positions be if the U.N. should mandate that the Hopi, the Apache, and the Cheyenne can dispossess those on their ancestral lands and set up their own legitimate nations? What about ETA and Chechnya? What about Africa? How should all those many peoples be allowed to set up their nations? What we see there today reflects European colonialism and nothing ancestral. European division of that continent is one of the major causes of all the turmoil we see there today. Can all of those different tribes and tongues and peoples make the same claims that you allow for the religious practitioners of Judaism?

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By Calabashe, April 8, 2010 at 7:50 pm Link to this comment

I know. Just as you know I’m no Jew-hater. There are fanatics within all –isms, those who twist logic with circular arguments, mis-interpretation and a lot of assumptions and guess work.

I hope these Neo-Zionists – the worst of the so-called Neo-Cons – don’t destroy Israel or 7th century architectural masterpieces. Perhaps that’s why the President is hinting at an American plan. I’m afraid it might need to be imposed. Maybe Bibi needs to be able to say, “they made me do it” ... like he did with Wye River.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 8, 2010 at 7:21 pm Link to this comment

Calabashe:
I am no defender of the neo-Zionists.  They are driven by Torah Orthodox who are no different than the Islamic leadership of Iran.  They actually have rules for how to put on your socks and shoes, and what order to do it in. They defile what was and is beautiful about the State of Israel.  If she is destroyed, then they will be responsible for it.

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By Calabashe, April 8, 2010 at 5:14 pm Link to this comment

@ ITW and to whom else it may concern.

I’m the “village Idiot” she spoke of in connection to the Road Map. LOL

At that time my letters described the situation as a ball of knots that needed to be carefully undone, maybe one at a time, so as not to increase tension on connecting knots.

The Road Map was a flawed bureaucratic interpretation of specific steps (knots) necessary. The phasing of the Roadmap was interpreted by the Neo-Zionists step by step, which meant they didn’t have to stop coveting thy neighbor’s property until the Palestinians accepted the Neo-Zionists as thy lord thy god. LOL

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By Calabashe, April 8, 2010 at 4:17 pm Link to this comment

Nemesis you do shove words and concepts down peoples throats.

Ok - I’m highly secular in my personal path and very Agnostic concerning the God-thing in particular; so your conclusions are false whether in beliefs you assign me or your interpretations of history.

I think you’re the kind of person who’s panties moisten by pushing buttons and I don’t think I’m gunna play with you any more while you so engage in such cyber sex. You can accurately call me a buzz-kill if you’d like.

Nostradamus? Small talk. I’m good.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 8, 2010 at 2:35 pm Link to this comment

i] nemesis2010, April 8 at 1:24 pm #

@ Inherit The Wind:

The artwork is addressed to a single individual who opined that everyone having this discussion was acting like a rectum.

I never asked you “are all Israelis evil or criminal.” You are confused because of your bias against anyone who refuses to accept your position that all Jews are godlike beings incapable of wrong-doing.
************************************************

First off, this is a flat-out bare-faced lie. I’ve never claimed ANYTHING of the sort.  In fact, I’ve been constant and adamant in my condemnation of what Calabashe labels the “neo-Zionists”—those that want to expand Israel and drive out every Arab who isn’t also a Jew, or at least a Christian (Yes, one can be either and be an Arab).  But it’s inconvenient and destroys your whole mythology if
a) I fully accept Jews as fallible human beings.
b) I do not and will not blindly defend the actions of a government that is even more right-wing that Bush’s.

You are a liar and anyone who has read my posts knows it, including Shingo.

************
Israelis are Homo sapiens—big brained apes—just like the rest of us. They are not a chosen people because there is no god to have chosen them! They are human beings; so are all of their neighbors.
*********************************************

Already answered this.
************
The turmoil that exists in that troublesome land is due to the forced establishment of that rogue state and the inflexibility of the different groups of Homo sapiens to work out a peaceful solution to that problem.
************

Let me see…Israel was established under a UN mandate, the SAME UN whose Article 242 is the touchstone of what Israel must do (according to the Arab nations) to achieve peace and recognition.

“Rogue State” is one of those value-laden phrases USUALLY used by Republicans to define nations that actively and (sometimes) violently oppose their interpretation of what American foreign policy should be.  “Rogue State” also implies that total eradication of that state and its people is justified.  So if you use that term to define Israel, while not using it to define Qaddaffi in Libya, or Bashir in Sudan, it’s nothing but anti-Semitic BULLSHIT to justify slaughtering Jews once more.

************

You were asked on what do you base “the state of Israel’s—not the Jews—right to exist?” (Jews are people, not a state.) You were asked that because until 1948 there hadn’t been an Israel for almost 3 millennia. The Israel of antiquity ceased to exist in about 720 BCE. What makes the Jews any different from the innumerable other tribes, nations, kingdoms, etc. in history that have ceased to exist as an economy? By what right can all those people be dispossessed and a state that hasn’t existed for almost 3,000 years be reestablished? Why can’t other peoples claim the same right?

Answer those questions if you the courage.

************

When did you stop beating your wife, Nemesis? Answer THAT question if you have the courage!

It takes courage NOT to answer loaded leading questions like the ones you ask.  It’s bullshit. Israel is surrounded by 22 Arab Muslim states with little to NO religious tolerance of ANY religion but Islam.  Israel IS tolerant of other religions, more so than ANY ME nation you can name.  It’s easy to say “Jews are a religion, not a people” but I’m a Jew yet a non-believer and I have spent my LIFE facing racism and bigotry from @$$#oles like you.  I can’t say, as a former Catholic or Baptist or Muslim can, “I used to be Jewish, but I’m not.”  YOUR bigoted world doesn’t allow it.  There’s a French Cardinal, in the Catholic Church, who is, to THIS DAY described as “The Jewish Cardinal” because he was born a Jew and converted.  Despite that, when he dies he’ll be remember as…A Jew!

You and your ilk MAKE Jews more than a religion. You MAKE us a people!

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By omop, April 8, 2010 at 11:13 am Link to this comment

Sarah Palin has been tagged with a variety of negative characterisstics.

The link to a photo of hers shows Ms. Sarah meditating on the complex issue of
when to wear the American flag lapel pin along with her Israeli flag lapel pin.

As one can tell from the photo it looks like the photographer insisted that she
wear neither one. When asked why she could not wear the pins, the photographer
was overheard saying that she would look more pensive without them.

You be the judge.

      http://mantiqaltayr.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/sarah.jpg

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By nemesis2010, April 8, 2010 at 10:24 am Link to this comment

@ Inherit The Wind:

The artwork is addressed to a single individual who opined that everyone having this discussion was acting like a rectum.

I never asked you “are all Israelis evil or criminal.” You are confused because of your bias against anyone who refuses to accept your position that all Jews are godlike beings incapable of wrong-doing. Israelis are Homo sapiens—big brained apes—just like the rest of us. They are not a chosen people because there is no god to have chosen them! They are human beings; so are all of their neighbors. The turmoil that exists in that troublesome land is due to the forced establishment of that rogue state and the inflexibility of the different groups of Homo sapiens to work out a peaceful solution to that problem.

You were asked on what do you base “the state of Israel’s—not the Jews—right to exist?” (Jews are people, not a state.) You were asked that because until 1948 there hadn’t been an Israel for almost 3 millennia. The Israel of antiquity ceased to exist in about 720 BCE. What makes the Jews any different from the innumerable other tribes, nations, kingdoms, etc. in history that have ceased to exist as an economy? By what right can all those people be dispossessed and a state that hasn’t existed for almost 3,000 years be reestablished? Why can’t other peoples claim the same right?

Answer those questions if you the courage.

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By nemesis2010, April 8, 2010 at 10:20 am Link to this comment

@ Calabashe:

I do believe you’re being more than just a little disingenuous aren’t you Calabashe? Even a casual perusal of my comments presents one with a good bit of accurate history. The one “statement” that you cherry-picked is an opinion and it is also history. Unless of course the Camp David Accords, the Oslo Accords, and the village idiot’s “Roadmap to Peace” are agreements on proper table etiquette. A “hornet’s nest” is an allegory to the tumultuous state of affairs that exist in that region of the world between Israel and its neighbors since its creation in 1948.

I’ve been completely civil with you Calabashe and I have not accused you of not providing information. I challenged you to counter, with evidence, any error in my historical presentation. Remember, you made the absurd remark about “baffle with bullshit.” Speaking of bullshit; Nostradamus? GMAFB!

You’re absolutely wrong about your religious affiliation or lack thereof not being relevant to public discussion. If the truth is that your pro-Israel stance is based on “god gave the land to Israel” it is very relevant. There are millions of delusional evangelical Christians who hold that opinion and that position is a major reason why Israel can get away with just about anything and not fear the wrath of American public opinion. Basing foreign policy on a book of contradictory fables and myth is not wise.

I have not presented any conclusion. What I have done is demonstrate that using your illogic any group of religious peoples claiming a “sense” of nationality with a land mass that earlier was a homeland to their ancestors can demand that they be allowed to dispossess current populations in order to reestablish their economies. If the Jews, who weren’t Israelis, can claim that right, why can’t the descendants of the Apache, the Hopi, the Aztecs, the Maya, the Inca, Cheyenne, etc, make the same claims? At least in the aforementioned cases those people are only a few hundred years out of their pre-Colombian economies; unlike Israel which hadn’t existed since approximately 720 BCE! That’s almost 3,000 years!

It appears, and admittedly this is inference on my part, that what you are truly basing your “right for Israel to exist” on is “God gave them the land.”  You simply lack the courage to admit it.

ITW and you call anyone who refuses to accept the absurdity that all Jews are angelic like beings as anti-Semites, anti-Jew, etc. That simply is not the case. Israel—as an ally—has been a scoundrel. It has destroyed one naval vessel, killed several U.S. seamen, interfered in our internal and foreign politics, been caught spying on us several times, and who knows what else. Israel is also willing to fight its enemies to the very last American and dollar. It’s way past time that the U.S. cut its financial and unqualified support of Israel. Without the U.S. standing behind it Israel will adjust its attitude and either reach a peaceful resolution with its neighbors or be driven into the sea. Like it or not, Israel’s neighbors are out-breeding them, world opinion of that rogue state is lower than it has ever been due to their atrocities against their neighbors, and their empire big-brother is fast fading into a third world economy. Reality can be a biotch! 

With friends like Israel the U.S. doesn’t need enemies.

Khazar? WTF?

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By Inherit The Wind, April 6, 2010 at 12:48 pm Link to this comment

Back around 1978 when Al Stewart wrote “The Eyes of Nostradamus” I became interested in it.  AS based it on the work of Erika Hawkins.  So I looked up a couple of her books and it was AMAZING the things that were there in her translation from French to English.

But I knew and know a little French, enough to be able to read it with great difficulty and and I started struggling with the French, which was next to her English translation.  What I found was her translations were, well, hard to put it any other way: Bullshit.  She was reading in whatever she wanted and the translations were, to put it mildly, loose.  There’s talk of “The Three”.  EH assumed this must be the Kennedys brothers, ignoring that there were FOUR brothers.  She swallowed hook, line and sinker Goebbells’ wife’s interpretation that “Hister” meant Hitler, rather than the river Ister.  And so on…

Thus ended my brief fling with the supernatural.  Logic, reason and fact took over.

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By Calabashe, April 6, 2010 at 12:22 pm Link to this comment

Dude - That was just a little harsh, man.

I, too, am not a Bible literalist. In fact, IMHO, all of today’s religions are like 60% dogma, 30% legend or myth, leaving only about 10% for truth and wisdom, which can be worth seeking.

Also, I’m in a position that I cannot deny a touch of the divine (spiritual). My Guardian Angel remains just a thought away, in true nature and persona, with a friendship that has come full circle now.

Remember the Nostradamus prophecy about the New City @ 45 degrees? (Ottawa perhaps? - LOL) Seriously, look at the 9-11 videoss and notice that everyone is looking up at a 45-degree angle watching the terror from the sky. I’m not a Nostradamus freak either but that being revealed was pretty trippy.

LOL

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By Calabashe, April 6, 2010 at 11:52 am Link to this comment

Thanx ITW or maybe I should thank Nemie too for being clearer. This seems to have become a bit of a background threat so I’ll come out some.

After 9-11, a friend felt compelled to pick up a weapon to defend US. I was compelled to pick up a pen for the same reason. The question was: what, if any, Israeli policies could further complicate or inspire expanded hostilities breaking out.

Being plagued by a demon of such magnitude that only one could really know and comprehend, I could relate to the plight of the Palestinian. The mailing list was impressive; world leaders and respected news outlets.

Circa March 2002, I started to realize my letters had an effect when I was engaged in a series of interviews conducted by a person of obvious intelligence. It was sexy and intriguing to think Marty was Mossad. Looking back, likely, he was ADL.

‘Bout 2 weeks after the interviews, Abe Foxman issued his opinion that government criticism wasn’t necessarily anti-Semitic. He also advised that such could be hidden in said same criticism. I hope I have respect Foxman’s words and advise honorably.

What set off bells was Foxman’s inclusion of Zionism being open to object criticism. So I looked into it. Got a clear picture of life under the Pogroms that inspired the movement. The exchange between Chaim Wiezman and Emir Faisel ibn Husien al Hashem was encouraging. World politics of the time did help sour all that.

I can’t go so far as to say Haganah was terrorist but surely Irgun and Stern were. Still, in 1948, I would have been right there doing the Hava Tequila (:-P) along with the Zionists. I later came to appreciate al Naqba as well, regardless of who may have started what.

After Oslo, 1992, Arik Sharon yelled, “Grab the hilltops.” IMHO, that was kristallnacht, when it could no longer be denied that the Zionist goal turned from establishing the state to expanding it.

These Neo-Zionists, mostly extreme Right and militant, began practicing lebensraum and adopting tactics that to clearly mirrored National Socialism with a lot of Apartheid mixed in.

Never again! Not with European Jews, not in Bosnia-Herzegovina and not to the Palestinians.

I hold ordinary Israeli citizens no more responsible than I hold Germans post WWI. Israeli democracy is flawed. Not having representative districts or constituencies means you can’t get rid of any one politician except by scandal. When the street, or a player, gets angry the government falls but it’s the same people playing musical portfolios so no real change ever comes. The Neo-Zionists are as entrenched as were the National Socialists.

Sharon came to see this as well. Going after Omri was a warning that Sharon was moving too far from Neo-Zionism. Arik eventually crushed the worst of the Neo-Zionists of the time, his own Party, Bibi and the Likud. Well look whose back and with Lieberman - or is that Doberman - playing the part of the junkyard dog!

So now the Neo-Zionists have managed to piss off its one true friend – US. Will Bibi become as great as Sharon? I doubt it. Will there be a stop payment on the check? It’s possible if not already fact.

Thanx for letting me get winded.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 6, 2010 at 9:35 am Link to this comment

C96:

What you talk about is a matter of faith, which you are welcome to. 

But it is not a matter of reality. Disasters falling on people are always attributed after the fact to “sins” that particular preachers see.  Remember Pat Robertson after 9/11? And again after Katrina?  He claimed the USA was being punished for tolerance.

This makes no sense.  Why does He punish us and not the Taliban or the Islamic Republic?  Why are the leaders of China or Putin untouched?  Why is Qaddaffi allowed to remain if He actually intervenes?

While I do not accept the existence of God, as I get older it becomes clearer and clearer that if God exists He/She MUST be ruthlessly logical, not whimsical or capricious.  In science and nature we ALWAYS find that when we are wrong about something, the answer is MORE, not less logical than what we had presumed.

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By christian96, April 6, 2010 at 7:01 am Link to this comment

For those of you not familiar with the Bible, God
chose Israel not because it was a mighty nation
but because it was least among the nations.  It
would be the nation through whom the messiah would
enter the earth in a flesh body.  Because of their
rejection of the commandments of God Israel was
dispersed throughout the nations but God did promise
a day when Israel would be re-gathered to the land
he had given them.  That occurred on May 14, 1948
when Israel once again became a nation.  However,
because they continue to rebel against the commandments there will come a day the Bible refers
to as the “day of Jacob’s trouble” when great
tribulation will fall upon Israel.  We are nearing
that time.  I hear preachers on TV trying to kiss-up
to Israel but I don’t hear any following the dictates of Isaiah 58:1, “Cry aloud, spare not, lift
up thy voice like a trumpet, and show my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their
sins.”  When I was in Jerusalem for three weeks in
September 1999 I saw porn shops.  Just one of many
sins but no preachers following the commandment of
Isaiah 58:1.  If Israel would first clean up their
act I believe God would assist them.  Until that time you will continue to see problems and great
tribulation coming to Israel.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 6, 2010 at 5:02 am Link to this comment

IMHO, The Neo-Zionists have perverted the original basic accomplished goal into an excuse for colonialism in violation of international law. Further, IMHO, these Neo-Zionists have adopted Nazi tactics and practices in an attempt to cleanse and annex land that was never a part of the modern state resulting in a wound that has festered too long and clearly threatens regional and world security.
**********************************************

There is not one word in this paragraph that I disagree with.

I like “neo-Zionism” as a word to differ from Zionism: the desire for a safe and secure homeland for Jews.  As “neo-Con” describes a perverted, destructive, malignant mutant version of Conservatism, so does “neo-Zionism” accurately describe the same for Zionism.

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By Calabashe, April 5, 2010 at 10:47 pm Link to this comment

Nemie - If I get the gist; you’ve been setting up the question that at least some Jews, the Ashkenazi in particular, have no special right or privilege, regardless of cultural heritage (be that religion, nationality, or race - whatever) to establish a “homeland” in the region of the historic homeland of that culture.

I disagree with that view, for whatever reason. You won’t change my mind no matter what you might try to call me. If fact, IMHO, that part of Zionism is noble. The determination to accomplish such a goal is admirable.

Guess what? That’s exactly what was accomplished. Israel became fact in 1948. Live with it. Work from there without going back to the Big Bang.

IMHO, The Neo-Zionists have perverted the original basic accomplished goal into an excuse for colonialism in violation of international law. Further, IMHO, these Neo-Zionists have adopted Nazi tactics and practices in an attempt to cleanse and annex land that was never a part of the modern state resulting in a wound that has festered too long and clearly threatens regional and world security.

The neighborhood is no longer the tempest it was. In fact, Israel is now the primary hostile combatant.

All 22 Arab nations have agreed to accept Jewish Israel with full regional cooperation if Israel returns to its ‘67 borders, likely adjusted. An adjusted map generated by the Geneva Accord -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Accord

- is acceptable to most of the Israeli and Palestinian streets. It’s the Neo-Zionist, which includes the majority of militant colonials that will have nothing to do with any plan beyond Allon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allon_Plan

Then there is also the issue of Gaza where 1.4 million people are regularly used for target practice by the IOF - Israeli Occupation Force.

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By Calabashe, April 5, 2010 at 4:24 pm Link to this comment

You can be a funny guy/gurl Nemie. LOL

“The creation of a Jewish state was the creation of a hornet’s nest…”

That’s opinion not history. My religious affiliation, or lack thereof is irrelevant to public discussion.

As predicted you accused me of not providing information but did avoided actual name-calling. Instead you only suggested said same such in implying a child-like outlook different than your own, which I think is arrogant and ignorant.

I’ve not doubted your historic accounts - just your conclusions.

I do believe Israel has a right to exist there as a Jewish State for whatever reason. I also believe the Neo-Zionist government is as evil as the National Socialists and seriously threatens world security.

BTW - I liked the artwork - very clever - so you do have your moments but your logic, IMHO, remains as confounding and circular as Neo-Zionist arguments.

What? No thanx for the Khazar info? LOL!

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By Inherit The Wind, April 5, 2010 at 2:42 pm Link to this comment

That’s why ITW didn’t dare to answer any of the questions posed to him and why you skirted around most of them.
**************************************

Point your artwork at yourself, Nemesis. I don’t answer leading questions like: “Are all Israelis evil or criminal? Pick one or the other!” and, then, if I don’t answer say “ITW’s afraid to answer the question!”

Point your finger at yourself.

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By nemesis2010, April 5, 2010 at 1:02 pm Link to this comment

@ Calabashe:

If there is anyone trying to baffle others with bullshit; it’s you Calabashe. If you find yourself doubting your own beliefs, convictions and knowledge of history it’s due to your convoluted and biased position confronting reality.

If what I have said is bullshit why haven’t you presented evidence to counter? The history that I’ve presented is recorded and easily verified. Perhaps the problem here is that you also are a believer in fairy tales? Are you a Christian?

The creation of a Jewish state was the creation of a hornet’s nest and if we use the same reasoning that you use to validate that action we can use it to establish religious states all over the world. That’s why ITW didn’t dare to answer any of the questions posed to him and why you skirted around most of them.

If you’ve anything other than “God gave the land to Israel” then let’s see it. If you don’t, at least have the courage to state your true motives. This is a major problem with Palin and her ilk; they’re fundamentalists and in any dispute between the modern state of Israel and its neighbors the Christians won’t give a damn about what’s right but rather what their mythology—as interpreted by each of the many thousands of sects—says about Israel and/or the Jews.

Super-power foreign policy should not be based on fairy tales!

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By nemesis2010, April 5, 2010 at 1:00 pm Link to this comment

@ Rodger Lemonde:
........................./´¯/)
......................,/¯..//
...................../..../ /
............./´¯/’...’/´¯¯`•¸
........../’/.../..../......./¨¯\
........(’(...´(..´......,~/’...’)
.........\.................\/..../
..........’‘...\.......... _.•´
............\..............(
..............\.............\

Is there someone twisting your arm to read the comments?

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By NadePaulKuciGravMcKi, April 5, 2010 at 2:04 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

dear sarah has a very brown nose
we have an american holocaust
never question 9/11 lies
israel firsters
bloodthirsty
bomb iran
blood lust

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By Rodger Lemonde, April 4, 2010 at 4:59 pm Link to this comment

Folks GET A LIFE. Even those I generally side with here
sound like Aholes. All complain and no positive
suggestions.
By the way politicians and Messiahs should never be
spoken of in the same sentence.

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By Calabashe, April 4, 2010 at 12:59 pm Link to this comment

Khazar is the name I was trying to recall - about present day Kazakhstan.

While googling I found a number of other proposals. Maybe you can use some of this information.

Happy, happy!

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By Calabashe, April 4, 2010 at 12:46 pm Link to this comment

ITW, I have a theory about the violence you speak of and the damage to religious and cultural centers.

In My Dogmatic Anti-Neo-Zionist Opinion:

For what ever reason some governments tried taking on the mantle of Jewish Pope. (collectively) There were pronouncements that certain people didn’t even exist. Yet there they were smack dab ruining an otherwise perfect hill top view where they had been for generations if not centuries.

Seriously, it got so that if you disagreed with a decision or policy, according to the government you were either anti-Jewish Religion or self-loathing.

I think people with less knowledge or understanding took protest and violence against innocents, people and places. Better they should have just burned the flag. The all-omnipotent government/papacy exposed those outlets, IMHO. Just a theory and maybe only some kind of contributing factor.

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By Calabashe, April 4, 2010 at 12:19 pm Link to this comment

Congratulations Nemesis.

You have managed the style of Zionist argument and hasbarah with perfection. It’s interesting to note you use the style as an anti-Zionist. Perhaps an attempt to further confuse and cause doubts in my own beliefs, convictions and knowledge of history.

If the political war does not go well, baffle ‘em with bullshit, like Fatah and Hamas did in Doha.

Great Video – Thanx TD.

I would guess your next offering is to insist I still haven’t answered some question and perhaps even call me a name. Likely one associated with the style of non-debate you’re currently using. I like the historical references, real nice touch. There are truths in all the Big Bang theories.

Do you know the one about the supposed first modern Jewish State? I forget the name, off hand, but it was somewhere in southern Czarist Russia. Serious!

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By nemesis2010, April 4, 2010 at 11:00 am Link to this comment

@ Calabashe:

Your response makes my head hurt. That’s one helluva lot of cognitive dissonance in less than 250 words.


Let’s try and put your comments into an easier to understand format, okay? 

Your position is that a mish mash of believers in Bronze and Iron Age tribal mythology, from many nations and race mixtures, possessed of a “sense” of national cohesion due to their mythology can lawfully displace millions of others from their homeland. Is that correct?

You do realize that there is no such thing as holy or sacred land, don’t you?

Based on your stated position the descendents of all the aboriginal tribes, nations, etc. in the U.S. of A. can displace all those of European, Asian, African, etc. ancestry because they—unlike the Jews—are a race, have a sense of national cohesion, share common mythological beliefs, and the land mass in question is their ancestral home! In their favor; their nations, tribes, communities, etc. were thriving just a few hundred years ago and their history is not mostly exaggerated invention in a book of mythology but well recorded history from numerous sources.

Then there’s the problem of how to define “homeland” or “native.” Those born in that territory known as Palestine are “native” to that territory. Most of the migration of Jews to Palestine between the early 1900s and shortly after WWII was of European Jewry, was it not? If so, how the hell are they native to Palestine? Wouldn’t you consider their homeland to be the country of their birth or at least the one in which they were raised?

I’d be willing to bet money that it would have been easier to find a needle in a hay stack than a blue-eyed, German, French, or Polish speaking Jew in Judah in 40 BCE, wouldn’t you? Do you realize that using the New Testament you can prove that not even the Jews of the Kingdom of Judah considered Israel a state or a people?

In the New Testament the people occupying what had been the northern kingdom are called Samarians and the land mass is called Samaria. And there was more than just a little animosity between them albeit they shared the same basic religion! Go read the mythological story of Jesus at the well with the Samarian woman.

Do you see the hornet’s nest getting larger and the hornets more agitated? The establishment of the modern state of Israel—at least in the way the world went about it—was a really bad idea that is going to cost the humanity much more than it already has.

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By omop, April 4, 2010 at 7:40 am Link to this comment

Is this guy like a Nazi or an antisemitic? Or maybe he cannot count op to 66?


    The So Called ‘Only Democracy in the Middle East’

    April 4th, 2010 12:54 AM    
    by Gilad Atzmon


In Israel, the so called ‘only democracy in the Middle East’, a journalist has
been held under house arrest since December for leaking a story of Israeli
barbarism. In the Jewish Democracy another prominent Journalist had to run for
his life for telling the truth about Israel’s murderous policies and its chief war
criminals.

The Guardian reported today that Anat Kam, 23, an Israeli journalist “has been
under secret house arrest since December on charges that she leaked highly
sensitive classified military documents that suggest the Israeli military
breached a court order on assassinations in the occupied West Bank.”

SEEMINGLY , IN THE “JEWS ONLY DEMOCRACY”, PEOPLE ARE PUT UNDER HOUSE
ARREST EVEN WHEN THEY ARE TRYING TO SUGGEST A BREACH OF THE STATE’S
HIGH COURT’S ORDERS. [ EVEN KOSHER CITIZENS

Anat Kam, 23, goes on trial in two weeks on treason and espionage charges
and could face up to 14 years in jail. In the ‘democratic’ Jewish state, a court-
imposed gagging order is preventing media coverage of the arrest and charges
in Israel. I am left puzzled here as it seems Israelis can be prosecuted for
reporting illegal activities.

A Haaretz leading journalist, Uri Blau, who has also been linked to the case,
has had to escape Israel. He is now in London, apparently for fear he will be
targeted for his reporting.

In November 2008, Blau reported in Haaretz that the IDF had been carrying out
assassinations of Palestinian militants in the West Bank in contravention of an
Israeli high court ruling, which said efforts should be made first to arrest
suspected militants rather than assassinating them.

According to Blau the IDF chief General Gabi Ashkenazi allegedly approved the
assassination operations. The Haaretz piece was accompanied by copies of
military documents but it was approved by the military censor before
publication.

I am here to suggest that if America still insists to ‘democratize the world’, it
may have to start with its ‘best ally’. Time may also be ripe for Neocon British
Foreign Secretary David Miliband who advocates ‘liberal interventionalism’, to
face the fact that the Jewish state, the state that lists him as one of its
Propaganda (Hasbara) authours, is no less than a Tyranny inspired by a deep
Talmudic intolerance.
-###-

by Gilad Atzmon http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/the-so-called-only-
democracy-in-the-middle-east-by-gilad-atz.html

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By Inherit The Wind, April 4, 2010 at 4:03 am Link to this comment

Thanks, Calabashe.  I realize we differ on some things. But I want you to know: Omop is EXACTLY the type of person who creates paranoia in Jews.
“Just because you’re paranoid…..”

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By drbhelthi, April 3, 2010 at 11:09 pm Link to this comment

Outstanding comment and reference. 
It is refreshing to know that at least one “israeli” newspaper publisher and one senior,
adult “israeli” possess and demonstrate logic ability.

“By omop, April 3 at 3:12 pm #
Leaave it to Haaretz, one of the worlds supreme news paper, and published in Israel summarize it for its readers.
  http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1159849.html  ”

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By Calabashe, April 3, 2010 at 7:17 pm Link to this comment

ITW - I think he might be a she as in close-minded and ignorant to explained concepts ei calling all Arabs terrorists.

You and I obviously have different perceptions on Zionism and what it has become in particular. No need to get your buttons pushed by name-calling and goy hasbarah.

Regardless of our (political) differences - I will stand with you when it comes to anti-Semitism whether blatant or subtle.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 3, 2010 at 6:45 pm Link to this comment

Omop STILL cannot say “STALIN”. He just cannot do it. History tells us that THE ultimate mass murderer in Soviet history is Stalin, not Jews, but Omop can’t even write the name.

So, rather than ADMIT that he is falsifying history to justify his neo-nazi hatred of Jews, he instead tries to question MY rationality.

I have never claimed “Jewish innocence”, never used such a term, which seems to be the latest “code word” for them to (wink,wink) communicate with each other. “International Finance” has been revealed as a code word, so I guess they need a new one.

“88”, Omop?

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By omop, April 3, 2010 at 4:09 pm Link to this comment

Its is quite obvious that ITW"s hysterics and personal insults reflect the mindset
of “absolute innocence” commonly used by some people of the Jewish faith.

  Zionist Jews principally cannot conceive bearing any responsibility for their
  atrocities.( as a prime example the killing of over 1600 defenseless men, women
  and children in the Gaza Gulag ) THEY are only victims, only “scapegoats” in a
  hostile world.

  Sad, very sad.

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By Calabashe, April 3, 2010 at 3:37 pm Link to this comment

omop – Guess I’d have to disagree with this French Historian if he assigns a stereotype to any particular culture or heritage. Sounds xenophobic, IMHO.

Don’t Christians and Muslims also profess a “we’re the best” cheer as well? Judaism is not a political project. Zionism is. Many Jews in America, Europe and in Israel itself don’t agree with this Neo-Zionist persecution of Palestinians.

The IOF (Israeli Occupation Force) is an organ of the Neo-Zionists – or is it that the GOI is an organ of the IOF? Sometimes I’m not sure which.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 3, 2010 at 3:09 pm Link to this comment

So..Omop can recognize a Jew by his appearance.  Also Omop CONTINUES to pretend Joseph Stalin never existed, like the idiots in Texas pretending Thomas Jefferson never existed.

Actually, if Omop wasn’t such a neo-Nazi, he’d quote ANOTHER Frenchman, Jean-Paul Sartre, who addressed EXACTLY that point.  Sartre had a friend, a Jew, who liked to live dangerously.  Sartre said that to any Frenchman, his friend was “clearly” Jewish.  But, having blond hair and blue eyes, to the Nazi occupiers it never even OCCURRED to them that he was Jewish and the friend would frequently sit down and drink with the Nazis…living dangerously.  It’s related in “Anti-Semite and Jew”, Sartre’s book following the War.

Omop: Can you say S-T-A-L-I-N?  Or do your teeth crack when you try to say it? Tell me, do you write “88” on things, too?

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By omop, April 3, 2010 at 2:45 pm Link to this comment

Calabashe.

You might be interested in what a French historian has written about the Jews,

      One of his statements is to the effect thar Judaism is not merely a
      “religion,” as many Jews are overt atheists or agnostics, and they do not
      consider themselves less Jewish for all that.

      Jewry is also not a race even if it is true that a “trained eye,” most of
      the time, can recognize a Jewish appearance, that is to say, a
      characteristic pattern which is the result of their strict observance of
      endogamy for centuries.

      Jews see themselves as the “chosen ones” of God, and marriage outside
      the community is strictly frowned upon. He concludes his expositio by
      making the statement that “Judaism is a political prject”.

      That Haaretz articke i mentioned before led me to a quote by
      a Ms. Frida Berrigan quoting what an Israeli soldier said of the last
      invasion of Gaza by the IDF:-

                “You feel like a child playing around with a magnifying
                glass, burning up ants.”

                That is how one Israeli soldier described Operation Cast Lead.
                The Israeli Defense Force’s (IDF) invasion of the Gaza Strip
              . from: ‘Aiding and Abetting War Crimes
:
                The Israeli military tested new weapons in Gaza with U.S.
                support’ –

                Frida Berrigan.
                Check it out on Wikipedia..


                And so it goes in war.

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By Calabashe, April 3, 2010 at 1:04 pm Link to this comment

Nenesis - just to further clearify your first question - natioanlity or race.

Considering the existence of the Askenazi and the Sephardi for examples. Jew cannot accurately be a single race, IMHO. At least not in this day and time.

OK - I’ll shut up for now. LOL

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By NYCartist, April 3, 2010 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment

Nope, that’s backwards: judge him/someone by their friends and what someone does,not what s/he says.  Obama,too.

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By Calabashe, April 3, 2010 at 12:49 pm Link to this comment

omop -

Ha’aretz is considered the Israeli Daily of record like the NYT here. It is a Left leaning publication (decidedly not Neo-Zionist) and respected worldwide.

The Jerusalem Post is more Right leaning. Wolf Blitzer used to write for the Post. Blitzer can be called somewhat conservative but he certainly is NOT a (Neo-)Zionist.

Y-net claims to be Center.

Aretz-7 is a Zionist rag.

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By msgmi, April 3, 2010 at 12:44 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Sarah Palin, Norman Podhoretz and all the other neoCONS have taken the preambles of the nazi-hate machine and bolshevik communism into the 21st century. What should have been buried with these two rogue regimes has been resurrected into a political ideology. These vultures feed on frenzy, homophobia and paranoia.

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By Calabashe, April 3, 2010 at 12:25 pm Link to this comment

Nemesis, thanx for wanting me to be more direct.

1. Is Jew a nationality or a race?

IMHO, mostly a religion that has historically had a sense of national cohesion.


2. Your use of the term “Wafq;” is it not to relay the thought that the region in question is “sacred” or “holy” to Jews also?

Yes. I used Wafq as a way of conveying just that.

3. Exactly what “Israel” are you referring to?

That depends upon context. Most of the time I refer to the modern state (Green Line). Other times the historic Kingdoms. I’ll try to be clearer from now on.

4. What is the basis of your claim that Israel has legitimate rights to the region too?

Because it is the ancestral homeland of Jews as well. You’ve pointed out some accurate history leading to Diaspora, although it came across a bit like Golda declaring there’s no such thing as Palestinians. Many Jews did manage to stay or to return over the last 2000 years prior to Zionism.

I also believe Kurds and Tibetans deserve, at the very least, some kind of autonomy as well.

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By omop, April 3, 2010 at 12:12 pm Link to this comment

Leaave it to Haaretz, one of the worlds supreme news paper, and published in
Israel summarize it for its readers.

  http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1159849.html

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By Calabashe, April 3, 2010 at 11:57 am Link to this comment

Look - IMHO a line has been crossed here. I have no fondness of (Neo-)Zionism but I am NOT an anti-Semite.

Blaming the world’s ills on Jews is the same as saying all Muslims are terrorists or all Germans were Nazis. Even allowing for some indoctrination, it just ain’t true.

The Zionist government (entity) may act like it has a direct line to God exempting themselves in practicing inhumanity, like the Wahobi or Pat Robertson but such serves only to encourage the defacing of temples and noble community centers and charities in the name of misguided political protest that has nothing to do with religion.

I believe the Zionist government is no better than National Socialists because they treat Palestinians worse than European Jews were treated under National Socialism – short of the death camps. But being a Jew has nothing to do with it. Jews come in as many flavors as do Christians from the conservative to the liberal, even the secular.

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By nemesis2010, April 3, 2010 at 11:36 am Link to this comment

@ Calabashe:

At this point I will have to respectfully disagree. I think we’re a lot further apart than it might appear.

While Zionism isn’t considered a religious doctrine; Judaism and Zionism fit like a hand and glove. Zionism and Judaism dovetail much in the same way that the Iraq War and Christian evangelical end time beliefs dovetail –only more so.

Since neither you nor ITW have answered any of the questions posed in my comments, I’ll attempt a somewhat different approach.

From approximately 720 BCE to 1948 CE there was no Israel and subsequently, no Israelis. From After the splitting of the Iron Aged Kingdom of Israel, c.1200 - 1000 BCE to 70 CE there was a very small, troublesome, and religiously fanatical Kingdom of Judah—thus the Jews—that was obliterated from existence in 70 CE by the Roman Empire. From 70 CE to 1948 CE there was a race of people called Jews, but there was no kingdom, nation, or state known as Judah. So, with that in mind, my questions to you are:

1. Is Jew a nationality or a race?

2. Your use of the term “Wafq;” is it not to relay the thought that the region in question is “sacred” or “holy” to Jews also?

3. Exactly what “Israel” are you referring to?

4. What is the basis of your claim that Israel has legitimate rights to the region too?

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By omop, April 3, 2010 at 8:25 am Link to this comment

Selective amnesia is necessary for a people who ceaselessly proclaim their
“innocence” of any provocative acts as one regularly notes in their writings and
name calling of individuals who do not completely buy into their histrionics.

  In referencing to the 30 million deaths of Christian Russians and Ukrainians
liquidated in the Communist adventures of 1917 to 1947. One can never say
enough about the appalling role of Jewish ideologues, Jewish bureaucrats, and
Jewish torturers that historians note were directly involved.

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By Grousefeather, April 3, 2010 at 8:22 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

There’s no doubt about it, republicans hate anything that’s good for average Americans.

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By bogi666, April 3, 2010 at 7:09 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Dvg55, The pom-pom president of Palin, we just had a cheerleader president,Bush. It’s the logical continuation of the same mindset that brought us Bush and as pointed out it only takes 20% of the eligible electorate to be president, and not even that much for a Repubican candidate. Remember they own the voting macnhines.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 3, 2010 at 4:41 am Link to this comment

So now in the panoply of all the “crimes” of Jews the TDNazis add the Soviet Revolution against the tyranny of the Tsars.  Lenin, a minor noble, is given the inevitable unprovable “Jewish grandmother” (Hitler was given a phony one too) and all mention of the REAL killer, the one who actually MURDERED the millions, Joseph Stalin is omitted. As is Stalin’s virulent HATRED of Jews…

Then, if as Jew I say I feel threatened by the continual and perpetual listing of supposed “crimes” by Jews, implying we are all greedy, money-hungry bankers, or slaughtering-Bolsheviks…I’m told I’m being a paranoid Zionist!

The threat being generated here against Jews is just as real, just as vitriolic, and just as violence-inciting as the Sarah Palin and the Tea-Baggers’ campaign against Blacks, Latinos, Asians and Muslims.  The litany of attacks, leads right back to Hitler’s “Final Solution”.  Every thread becomes yet another attack on Jews and/or Zionism.

Every half-century the Jews get scapegoated once again for the world’s troubles.  Since 1945, it has been delayed an extra 15 years, but it’s back once again.

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By omop, April 2, 2010 at 5:37 pm Link to this comment

FIREFLY.

You are the first commentor on any website that has pointed out the role of
Russian Jews during tee Bochevik Revolution and subsequent conditions in
Russia.

The following views and critique are by a French historian and suggest a major
role by the Jewish Community in Russia.

  The following are excerpts from his book

  “Many Jews, played an absolutely huge role in the Soviet tragedy 1917-1991
and the thirty million deaths that marked this era. Let us remember that Karl
Marx was born into a Jewish family and that Lenin himself had a Jewish
maternal grandfather, that Leon Trotsky, the Bolshevik founder and head of the
Red Army, was born a Bronstein, while Kamenev (real name: Rosenfeld) and
Zinoviev (real name: Apfelbaum) were running the two Bolshevik-conquered
capitals of Moscow and St. Petersburg.

. But the list of Jews who stood out in the mega-crimes of Communism is
endless. It must be said and it must be repeated: Jewish officials and Jewish
torturers bore a very heavy responsibility in this tragedy. The “perfect” world
they concocted and which was supposedly “historically inevitable” turned out
from the very beginning to be a nightmare for the Russian population.

  It was not until 1948 when the Jewish intellectual elite Jewish began
distancing itself from the Stalinist government, and this was only because
Stalin had launched his “anti-Zionist” campaign, meant to purge pro-Israel
Jews from senior leadership positions.

  This indisputable Jewish guilt for the gigantic crimes of Bolshevism is now
systematically being shoved down the Memory Hole (the phrase from George
Orwell’s 1984).

  In Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s 2002 book Two Centuries Together, the Nobel
Laureate and 11-year veteran of the Bolshevik gulag expresses outrage that
Jewish intellectuals were still refusing to recognize their ethnic responsibility in
the slaughter of millions of Christians. Solzhenitsyn also denounces modern
Jews who pose as victims of an “antisemitic” Bolshevik government when that
government was in fact heavily Jewish and Jews were among the worst
perpetrators.
 
  Whether these interpretations are historically correct or not they do challenge
and remind one that no one under the sun on this planet is blameless in being
a participant by either ommission or commission of perpetuating crimes
against hi/her fellow (wo)man

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By Inherit The Wind, April 2, 2010 at 4:33 pm Link to this comment

firefly, April 1 at 2:24 pm #

Many of the greatest progressive social movements were started by Jews (Marx, Lenin, Trotsky). In fact, communism was founded by the Bolsheviks 95% of whom were Jewish. Jews have historically been intellectuals and knowledgeable (in fact, it is this very fact that has so often made them unloved by the uneducated and resentful mob). It is no surprise that many Jews (despite their increasing wealth and dominance) still retain that innate social conscience. What is more remarkable is why Israel doesn’t. Where have Israeli Jews gone so wrong when it comes to free-thinking, intellectualism? Israel (and yes, I’m generalizing) has become more closed-minded, bigoted and conservative as has much of mainstream America. It’s all to do with education, education and education. It’s also to do with the power of propaganda and the power of fear
***************************************

Firefly: First off, Lenin was NOT a Jew—he was a minor noble.  Second, it should be blatantly obvious what happened in Israel: Enough Orthodox and Chassids immigrated that they hold a plurality in elections.

To paint all Jews as Liberals is insane.  While many Jews ARE liberal, the very religious ones mostly are not.  They are not ecumenical, they are isolationist and dictatorial.

Remember: In 2004, George W. Bush received 63 million votes (if we assume Diebold only fixed SOME machines). Yet the nation had well over 300 million—so Bush was elected by 20% of all Americans—one FIFTH!  Yet he got to pretend he represented all of us.  In Israel, it’s the same.

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By balkas, April 2, 2010 at 8:51 am Link to this comment

To me, it is unacceptable to array landtheft; with intent to murder-expel and steal more land thereafter, as an “ism”; i.e., as an ideology.

Adding to this fact, the fact that the ‘zionists’ had no connection whatever with zion, palestine, or hebrews, renders such labeling even more wrong.

In fact, the slavo-germano-khazarians with the cult have not behaved different than the europeans with another cult have behaved in americas since early 16th century!
It also seems that this a non-people with the cult or some connection with it, do not reside in palestine.
One cannot make money in palestine, but can in europe and anericas.
Israel is now vastly shemitic and with three cults. tnx

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By omop, April 2, 2010 at 8:47 am Link to this comment

Sarah Palin as a Neocon Messiah.

http://mantiqaltayr.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/sarah.jpg

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By EdWatters, April 2, 2010 at 7:50 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Apparently, Scheer becomes a heretic, to many on this thread, when he says, “…Barack Obama might be shaping up as a good president…”...It’s up to us to make him “shape up.””

The kid gloves treatment Obama’s received here from a stalwart voice of the left in the past two weeks is hardly going to induce him to ‘shape up’ or encourage people to put some pressure on him. If people want to read rationalizations for Obama’s hard right turn, they can go to NYT on-line and get the bells and whistles interactive features too.

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By dsmith, April 2, 2010 at 4:38 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Congratulations Mr. Scheer on a great article.

Unfortunately this blunt and fearless exposure of Jewish zealots and their desire to control US foreign policy is why the LA Times fired Mr. Scheer and replaced him with neocon watchdog and Israeli Firster…Jonah Goldberg!

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By drbhelthi, April 2, 2010 at 4:25 am Link to this comment

Perhaps, writing copy that strokes as many neocon political elements as possible, while attacking personages who do not suck-up to them, is where one thread of today´s journalism is presently hovering.  Is it a conglomeration of written trash, similar to the alleged “health reform” bill, that allows the current, US-NAZI/CIA administration to initiate a type of civilian “Hitler Youth” under the guise of “US Gov, hired reinforcers” of the legislatively-mandated “health insurance” ??

“What a great testament to the enduring decency of Jewish values that they have proved so capable of embracing social goals that transcend narrow class interest. What a wonderful refutation of historical anti-Semitism that Jews so consistently ignore personal economic gain to serve the larger good.”
    How ?  By bull-dozing 20.000 more houses of legitimate Palestinians in order to create stolen, land-space for the announced 16,000 israeli dwellings ?  While telling the U.S. Vice-President where to stick it?  Of course, as long as he supports continuation of the daily, 15-18 million US dollar stipend to Israel, he is permitted to “smile and be happy,” while sticking it ?

“Indeed, the U.S. policy agenda for the region seems to be set by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who, as her warm reception at the recent AIPAC conference indicates, has long been regarded as a fervent friend of Israel.” 
Certainly !  As long as she supports the daily, +15 million $US stipend for israelis.
Certainly !  As long as she supports Israel´s 5,000 yr history of genocide of neighbors, currently, Palestine. 
Certainly !  As long as she promises “Israel” USAF delivery of underground, bunker-busters against Iran. (Plus additional bennies.)

Historical vagabonds, the israeli tribe possess 200 of “Uncle Sugar´s” nukes, in spite of their warring history and their current genocide against Palestinians.  However, Iran, who attacked on orders of G.H.W. Bush Sr., not of their own volition, is not allowed to own its own nuclear generator, much less its own nuke ?  Just what does Iranian leadership think Iran is?  A sovereign nation ?  Who would ever guess? 

Commenters, who post such concepts as, ” Palin is, in my opinion, shallow, ignorant, and mean spirited. I believe that Podhertz and his ilk are evil, because they are real politic Machiavellians, who value false pragmatism over morality,”  describe US leadership since Mr. Jimmy Carter.  Certainly not Mrs. Sarah Palin.

Palin´s record in Alaska does not place her among the machiavellian-dictator-types who have ruled the U.S.  She does not have the support of either major party, is not a pimp of the New World Order, is not an “outside of wedlock” offspring of a Rockefeller, who have not promised her the US presidency, nor has she begged for AIPAC support.  Nor has she fulfilled twenty years of servitude to the CIA.  Perhaps she is too clean ?

While S. Palin is not a “messiah” of any type, neither is she a pimp or member of the “elitist group”.  Is it little wonder, that she is barraged from all sides with slanted accusations and propaganda ? 

Certainly, none of the groups in power want a comparatively clean person, who sucks up to none of them, to become U.S. President.

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By Mike, April 2, 2010 at 3:08 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

If Sarah Palin ever became President,  and hopefully she never will,  they would have no problem finding a new storage facility for “Air Force One”.  They could park it in her mouth.

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By JDmysticDJ, April 2, 2010 at 2:00 am Link to this comment

Palin is, in my opinion, shallow, ignorant, and mean spirited. I believe that Podhertz and his ilk are evil, because they are real politic’ Machiavellians, who value false pragmatism over morality.

Scheer’s article was, I believe, cogent regarding the question of American Jews. I’ll ask, are elitist corporate Neocon Jews evil because they are Jews, or are they evil because they are elitist corporate Neocons? Knowledgeable people know that the most credible and enlightened critics of Israeli policies are Jews. When evaluating our society, I’ll suggest that about 30% of Americans are hard core authoritarian corporatist /fascist types, which correlates with the 30/70 ratio that Scheer points out when evaluating American Jews. That being said, I believe, his pronouncements about Iran are slanted, and shaped by counter productive, unrealistic, ethnic paranoia. Clearly Iran has problems, but don’t we all?

Apparently, Scheer becomes a heretic, to many on this thread, when he says, “…Barack Obama might be shaping up as a good president…” Good, can be a relative term. I would not say Obama is a “good president,” because of his national security and foreign policy actions, and because of his lackluster domestic policy accomplishments. I am most concerned with Obama’s foreign policy actions. His foreign policy actions are, I believe, as wrong headed and harmful as those of Lyndon Johnson. (Without elaborating, I’ll only say that using the word “harmful,” is a gross understatement.) Regarding Johnson, the democrat, his conscience bothered him to the point where he refused nomination for a second term, while Nixon, the republican, pursued the war with extreme prejudice, and the war continued for another 6 years.

Good being relative, I’ll maintain that Obama is our best option, at the present time, and that he is more likely to “shape up” than any of the current viable alternatives. It’s up to us to make him “shape up.”

Political reality can be hard; abandoning Obama will only guarantee the victory of a more “harmful” alternative. Obama’s advocating health care reform, and his criticisms of Wall Street may be perceived as political theater by some, but he’s the best actor we have, at the present time.

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By christian96, April 1, 2010 at 11:42 pm Link to this comment

“A democracy ALWAYS collapses over loose financial
policy and is ALWAYS followed by a dictatorship.”

                      Alexander Tyler

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By Calabashe, April 1, 2010 at 6:05 pm Link to this comment

Nemesis, We’re probably not far off from each other on this, just not quite speaking exactly the same either.

I used the word Wafq to Arabs I was speaking to because the word had clear meaning as to my point that Israel has legitimate rights to the region too.

Yes, History is littered with facts of indigenous people suffering at the hand of Imperialism. The US is guilty too. Here in CA awareness of that is one reason the CA Tribes pretty much get whatever they put on the ballot. No p5roblem here with that. We also know it was the border that crossed many of our Hispanics and not the other way around – for the most part.

We also agree that fanatics (albeit not limited to just religious) cause too many of the world’s problems with narrow-minded ideology. Zionism is NOT a religious doctrine. Never was. Although a Jewish movement, it is political doctrine and one that has become as much a threat to world security as was National Socialism.

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By nemesis2010, April 1, 2010 at 5:30 pm Link to this comment

@ Calabashe:

Wafq, an Arab word that translated literally means: a magic square. Is that not correct? If I’m not mistaken it is also the name of any group—such as a council—of officials responsible for the so-called Wafq, isn’t it? Whatever your meaning of Wafq, your comments serve as a perfect example of the pitfalls of mythological beliefs as a basis for social structure and law.

The aboriginals occupying what now constitutes the U.S. of A. was full of different tribes and tongues of people who all had their sacred lands—according to their mythologies—given to them by their various gods. Are those ancient mythological rights enough to displace the current possessors and take control of lands that they once possessed? You can’t answer without making the hornet’s nest of fatally flawed logic larger and the hornets more agitated. Anyone can take that illogic as far back as they find it convenient. The problem is that another group can take it even further into the past until it trumps the first group’s position. If Mexicans claim right to the lands seized by the U.S. during the Mexican American War the descendents of the aboriginals of the same lands can claim a right to the land based on pre-Colombian possession.

Fanatical religious fundamentalism was the major cause of Judeans losing their land and fanatical religious fundamentalism just may prove to be the reason they suffer yet another Diaspora.

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By EdWatters, April 1, 2010 at 3:32 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“More evidence that Barack Obama might be shaping up as a good president…”

When I read this in the opening paragraph, I figured it was written before the sell-out to big oil by Obama,R-Ill. Come on Robert! Last week you were putting a positive spin on the atrocious, pro-industry HC reform bill and this week Obama is looking good? Domestic oil extraction does next to nothing for our balance of trade or the price at the pump and puts sensitive marine ecologies at increased risk for disaster.

The only plus in this sell-out is for big oil. They get to sell the much-cheaper-to-bring-to-market domestic oil at inflated world market prices. No one on the left should give a crap about any improved negotiating position for upcoming environmental legislation because cap and trade is just another gift to corporate America and does next-to-nothing to alleviate global warming.

Just because the Repubs are become more rabidly reactionary with each new day is no reason to go easy on the centrist, corporatist Obama. You’ve built an impressive reputation as an outspoken critic of morally bankrupt status quo, and I thought I’d never find myself writing this, but Robert Scheer, you need to check yourself. You’re sounding like an apologist lately.

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By Hulk2008, April 1, 2010 at 1:47 pm Link to this comment

To jackwbarnes1:

Looks like you are still logging in via an old mainframe to do your blogging.  Ever hear of lower case letters ?  They invented them quite soon after that Roman Empire you mentioned. Ask your grandson to teach you where the shift key is .... and USE it.

There are those of us who served in later wars and prefer to believe war is no good answer except for the mortuary industry. The dead have no economy. 

Consider this:  if Bush had not had a “head start” with a good economy and the surpluses from the Clinton years, we would have entered the Greatest Depression long before the last election.  You don’t need to apologize to Obama and the Dems. 

Just say a polite Thank You for pulling the US back from the brink.  And tell Bob Scheer he hit the mark once again.

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By Calabashe, April 1, 2010 at 1:30 pm Link to this comment

Nemesis - as I have written many times to Arab friends, that region is also Jewish Wafq (Holy Land) and the Jews have the right to a homeland there. Because of the 2000 year history when most Jews were in Diaspora, Jews don’t have the right to all that was the Kingdom of Israel. The last legal demarcation recognized by the whole planet is the Rhodes Green Line.

I do believe the Old City is and ought to be Israeli - so long as all of the children of Abraham are allowed to freely worship there and 7th century architectural masterpieces are not destroyed. Otherwise the Green Line is the legal place to start in determining a final border.

Unilateral colonial settlement activity is pure lebensraum and as repulsive now as it was in the 1930’s.

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By Calabashe, April 1, 2010 at 12:56 pm Link to this comment

ITW, just to clarify albeit off-topic.

Early Zionism, IMHO, was noble and just, although not totally kosher - “a land with no people for a people with no land.”

Circa 1992, after Oslo, Sharon (pre-epiphany) shouted “grab the hill tops” in order to prevent the emergence of a Palestinian State. That’s when Zionism turned me off and began to turn so militant that (Neo-)Zionism became comparable to National Socialism, IMHO.

There are Christian Zionists as well - a.k.a. Revelationists. Those who want to destroy a 7th century architectural masterpiece in the belief that the Christ will return. Revelations is a story of such madness that it warrants planet-cide. It’s not that Christ will join us it’s more we would join Christ, as I read it.

Sharon’s epiphany came after Christmas circa 2002. Arafat was allowed an op ed piece in the NYT where he wrote of his vision of Israeli and Palestinian children playing together in peace. Sharon’s response was that he should have pulled the trigger when Arafat was in his site.

That was so embarrassing to Arik that he actually joined the other side, eventually crushing the Likud. It was an amazing thing to witness Sharon maneuver the political battlefield with the same tenacity he did the military battlefield. IMHO, Arik was the last great King of Israel.

Abe Foxman, head of the ADL Circa March 2002, said that criticism of the GOI, its policies or of Zionism, is not, in itself, anti-Semitic.

IMHO, the extreme Right path of deceit and elitism, as represented by Palin, ignorant Tea Baggers and others in order to bring on Har Megiddo is not the path I choose.

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By nemesis2010, April 1, 2010 at 12:47 pm Link to this comment

@ Inherit The Wind:

Zionism presents the world with a hornet’s nest of fatally flawed logic and problems.

According to history the original state of Israel was destroyed by the Jews in a civil war which split the original kingdom into two smaller kingdoms. Those two resulting nation states were known as Israel (comprised of the “ten tribes”) and Judah. This is a very important, albeit never mentioned, point in any discussion about the so-called Jewish homeland. The Jews destroyed their original homeland through their civil war.

The resulting northern kingdom was conquered and, as was the custom of the day, the conquered people were carried off into captivity and dispersed among other populations never to exist as a unique group again. This conquering and dispersing of the Kingdom of Israel took place about 720 BCE. The date depends on how one views the conquering since it took the Assyrians approximately 20 years to complete the task. That left the Jews with only the very small, problematic, and troublesome Kingdom of Judah which was later conquered and sent into exile by the Babylonians. The Judean exiles were allowed to return—in stages—to their occupied homelands several decades later under edicts by Persian emperors. This reestablishment of the Judean kingdom was slow and not problem free. Read the history and consider the problems after less than a hundred years absence. How much more can one expect after almost 2,000 years?

In 70 CE, the Roman Empire, after a two year siege of Judah’s capital, destroyed the city, dispersed the people throughout its empire, and renamed that territory Palestine (after another group of original peoples known as Philistines). The Kingdom of Judah no longer existed; it was obliterated and the land that once comprised Judah was occupied by other peoples who came to be known as Palestinians. Those peoples and their descendents have occupied the land approximately 2000 years. How long must a people occupy a land before it becomes their homeland? Think hard before answering because European occupation of the western hemisphere is typically dated back to the late 15th century.

Your statement: “…like myself, who believe a safe homeland is not unreasonable…” demonstrates your—and those like-minded—myopic thinking. Have you and those like-minded ever asked the people occupying their homeland how they felt about surrendering their homeland to other people who do not share a common language, common religion or many other factors that work against a peaceful repatriation to a non-existent homeland? How many Jews—prior to 1948—would you estimate were actually born in the territory that once comprised the Kingdom of Judah? 

How would those born into all the territory that belonged to Mexico before 1845 feel about returning that territory to Mexico? How would those born into the former Mexican territory and the Mexicans feel about rendering control of those territories to the few descendents of those who occupied the lands before the Spanish conquered all those unique peoples and consolidated their empires, nations, states, etc., into a Nueva España?

Does the land mass known today as Australia belong to the white European descendents or to the aboriginals that possessed the land for millennia before the European conquest? How about New Zealand? What’s your position on the land mass comprising the modern state of Canada; to whom does it rightfully belong? Have you any thoughts on Taiwan? 

Those aren’t sophist questions. They are questions that demonstrate what a hornet’s nest the reestablishment of a Jewish homeland, after almost 2,000 years, in the territories of the original Jewish homeland presents to the world. This is not going to end well for many; especially once Americans wake up to the fact that the Jews are willing to fight their enemies to the last American.

With a friend like Israel, America doesn’t need an enemy.

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By nemesis2010, April 1, 2010 at 12:33 pm Link to this comment

@ Christian96:

Jeebus on my grilled cheese sandwich! Don’t you know that daemons have no power over those not dumb enough to believe in them? OPPS!

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By prole, April 1, 2010 at 11:54 am Link to this comment

“Judge them by their enemies. More evidence that Barack Obama might be shaping up as a good president is that Norman Podhoretz hates him so much”  …actually, that’s just about the only “evidence”. So no, obviously “that does not properly address all of the serious questions raised about the Obama presidency by progressives” - but when did Scheer ever raise any such serious questions about it? And now Scheer is back to his old tricks again, looking for new ways to exonerate his own tarnished messiah Obama by making the bizarre case that if the odious Poedhortz doesn’t like Obama then he can’t be all bad. So like maybe Stalin was a “good president” because Hitler hated him so much?
  But it’s true though that Pohdhortz shouldn’t complain so bitterly about the last election. After all, why is it such an extraordinary feature of David Axelrod & Rahm Emanuel’s “victory over John McCain was [their] capture of 78% of the Jewish vote”? No imaginary “self-haters” there, just voting for ‘Podhoretz’s own’. “What a great testament to the enduring decency of Jewish values that they have proved so capable of embracing social goals that”...reflect their own class interests and their disproportionate benefit in expanding the power of federal government, allowing them to leverage their tiny numbers in a way that they never could do at the state level. Jews have hardly “consistently ignore[d] personal economic gain to serve the larger good” – in fact, they’ve made out better than any other ethnic group in the country, by far. Not so in the eyes of Podhortz, who was immensely disappointed that the commitment of Jews to those enlightened views did not dissipate with the nomination of Obama but rather increased somewhat”...as did the number of Jewish appointees in the new administration which increased quite a bit as well, particularly at the Dept.’s of State and Treasury and their ancillaries. Jews own the Democratic Party lock, stock and barrel, so you could never imagine Hussein Obama threatening to suspend loan guarantees to Israel over settlement expansion the way Bush, Sr. & James Baker did in ’92. In fact, aid to Israel was also suspended by Eisenhower and Dulles in ’53 over the planned Jordan River canal project and they threatened to again during the ’56 Suez crisis. Even Poedhortz’s own favorite prez, Ronnie Ray-gun suspended cluster bomb shipments to Israel after the invasion of Lebanon in ’82. So,‘Podhoretz’s own’ have actually fared slightly worse under Republican regimes than under Democratic dictators. But that certainly doesn’t make Sarah Palin the true messiah.  As Palin sputtered this week in her Facebook rant, “In a week when events in the Holy Land thousands of years ago are on the minds of millions, we would all do well to include Israel’s security in our prayers as we encourage our government to do all it can to ensure there is never a nuclear Iran able to threaten our interests or our allies.” Sarah, like Podhoretz, appears intent on the Second Coming, sooner rather than later so it’s not surprising that Podhoretz “would rather have Sarah Palin sitting in the Oval Office than Barack Obama.”. But enough of the lesser-of-two-evils “devil’s deception”.  At least Podhoretz is right to try and “open the eyes of my fellow Jews to the correlative falsity of the political creed [Obama] so perfectly personifies” - even if Jews have been “loyal” for very self-interested guiding reasons. “The commitment of Jews to those enlightened views did not dissipate with the nomination of Obama”…but disappeared almost altogether. “What a great testament to the [alleged] enduring decency of Jewish values” it would be if it proved as “capable of embracing” a Cynthia McKinney or a Ralph Nader or a Jesse Jackson, instead of always trying to torpedo them in order to serve their “own” through the Democratic Party machine.

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By firefly, April 1, 2010 at 11:24 am Link to this comment

Many of the greatest progressive social movements were started by Jews (Marx, Lenin, Trotsky). In fact, communism was founded by the Bolsheviks 95% of whom were Jewish. Jews have historically been intellectuals and knowledgeable (in fact, it is this very fact that has so often made them unloved by the uneducated and resentful mob). It is no surprise that many Jews (despite their increasing wealth and dominance) still retain that innate social conscience. What is more remarkable is why Israel doesn’t. Where have Israeli Jews gone so wrong when it comes to free-thinking, intellectualism? Israel (and yes, I’m generalizing) has become more closed-minded, bigoted and conservative as has much of mainstream America. It’s all to do with education, education and education. It’s also to do with the power of propaganda and the power of fear.

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By christian96, April 1, 2010 at 10:39 am Link to this comment

ALERT! ALERT! ALERT!——Completely ignore any
comments about Christianity made by Nemesis2010
and Lennerd.  They are possibly possessed and agents
of Satan. Their comments could possibly harm you
for ETERNITY.

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By P. T., April 1, 2010 at 10:02 am Link to this comment

While large numbers of Republicans may love Israel, they are not necessarily fond of Jews.  The Republican Party is not known for its tolerance.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 1, 2010 at 4:12 am Link to this comment

Calabashe, April 1 at 1:00 am #

Gotta agree with ITW. Jew bashing is not a sport I endorse in any way. It’s ignorant. If you gotta bash - bash the Zionists. Theirs is political doctrine, not religious.

‘Course, IMHO, some here throw around terms like liberal, progressive even Left and Right without knowing what these terms actually mean.

Others seem to be so internally angry that when they see a riot, they think it’s a party and join for the opportunity just to party.
*************************************
Calabashe puts it perfectly.
Zionism, while highly connected to being Jewish, and to deny that would be foolish, it is a political view, that ranges from the very moderate, like myself, who believe a safe homeland is not unreasonable, to extreme crazies, whom I abhor as much as anyone, who don’t recognize the humanity of other people living there.

Just as the GOP ranges from Charlie Crist to Sarah Palin (Sane and capable to dangerously insane and incompetent), and as the Left ranges from Senator Nelson to, well, say, Marxists, so does Zionism.  It isn’t black or white.

So while I am attacked for not desiring the extermination of Israel, I cannot and will not defend the racist policies of the Netanyahu government.  His foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, makes Sarah Palin and the Tea-baggers look like Liberals. He is a monster.

Yet the racist idea that people who share a common heritage shouldn’t celebrate that (unless it’s the racists’ heritage) is revolting and the stuff Hitler and the Nazis fed and fed on.

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By bogi666, April 1, 2010 at 4:03 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

McCain, a war criminal and traitor, is really just so stupid it’s obvious alzheimers has set in he doesn’t even remember 2008 election that he lost and that Palin contributed to his losing BIG TIME. So, McCain solicits Palin thinking who did him no good in 2008, to help him in 2010. Palin spent all the time at a rally with McCain talking about herself, surprise. She’s playing McCain for the fool that he is and has always been. McCain’s doing the same thing that made him lose in 2008, Palinism, and you know what A DEFINITION OF INSANITY BEING THAT THE INSANE KEEP DOING THE SAME INSANE THING OVER AND OVER EXPECTING A DIFFERENT RESULT.Wrong!Insane McCain

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By dgvb55, March 31, 2010 at 11:20 pm Link to this comment

Sarah Palin is no messiah. She’s barely an apostle. She’s, at most, a pom-pon girl. She has to keep the team pumped-even if it means incitement to violence. That doesn’t even matter. 2010 will be the initial test on just how toxic a Tea Party endorsement is to the GOP candidate with the general voting public. Once 2012 rolls around you’ll see the “adults” running for the nomination not so much distance themselves from the “Palin Party” as never even mention them, or her. They’ll take their votes and even their money, but NOT their platform. Same as they’ve done with the fundamentalist christains. After all, none of these wack-jobs has anywhere else to go. If violence erupts as a result of Palin’s exhortations, well, that’ll be Palin’s fault and her problem. If the Dems can keep the connection intact by going beyond Palin and associate her effectively with Bachmann, Boehner, McCain and other GOP’s the more toxic the Tea Party becomes in more voters’ minds. THAT’S how the Dems need to handle this. Ram, jam, and cram as many major republican players into the Tea Party as they can get away with.

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Russian Paul's avatar

By Russian Paul, March 31, 2010 at 11:06 pm Link to this comment

ITW wrote Scheer writes one of his better columns here.

This is one of his worst. More obfuscation of the central issue: Obama is
continuing and in some instances expanding all the horrid policies of the Bush
administration. Because Norman Podhoretz would rather be led by Palin than
Obama, that means Obama is on the right track?! No, how about we honestly
evaluate Obama solely on his actions? Yes, he inherited a bunch of bullshit, but
he is not attempting to fix any of it, he is only doing what his corporate
sponsors expect from him. We are now technically at war with 5 muslim
countries and Israel is blatantly disregarding international law while spitting in
the US faces. The insurance companies and the banks are happy as clams.
I think a good illustration of the two administrations can be summed up by
their unmanned drone policy. In just his FIRST YEAR, Obama was responsible
for 51 unmanned drone attacks in Pakistan, while Bush did 45 over the course
his ENTIRE presidency. We are seeing an even more nefarious administration,
but behind a much more pleasant mask.

Look, who cares what the teabaggers think? It’s a movement of manipulated
ignoramuses who do nothing to challenge the status quo because they do not
understand that corporate control and a bloated military will be our downfall.
They are too busy protesting a socialist boogeyman that doesn’t exist.
Democrats love the teabaggers because in comparison, it makes them look like
the egalitarian reformers. Such bullshit.

Corporations control our politicians. The same people that funded Bush,
funded Obama. It’s not that complicated guys.

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ApprxAm's avatar

By ApprxAm, March 31, 2010 at 11:00 pm Link to this comment

Who ever said that Mr. Obama was a liberal, Robert.  And yes, compared to the Quasi-Lib Clintons and masters of disaster Cheney/Bush and the Palinite, tea-baggin’ RePugZ, Obama is pretty damn A-OK.  He never promised you a LibGarden.

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Calabashe's avatar

By Calabashe, March 31, 2010 at 10:00 pm Link to this comment

Gotta agree with ITW. Jew bashing is not a sport I endorse in any way. It’s ignorant. If you gotta bash - bash the Zionists. Theirs is political doctrine, not religious.

‘Course, IMHO, some here throw around terms like liberal, progressive even Left and Right without knowing what these terms actually mean.

Others seem to be so internally angry that when they see a riot, they think it’s a party and join for the opportunity just to party.

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By P. T., March 31, 2010 at 9:29 pm Link to this comment

To me it seemed like what angered Norman Podhoretz and some of those guys who jumped into the neo-con movement was the New Left’s criticism of Israel, Third World sympathies, anti-imperialism, and so forth.  What is remarkable is how extreme their reaction would be.

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By lennerd, March 31, 2010 at 8:42 pm Link to this comment

@ Christian96:

“Beside being a Christian
I am also a Counseling Psychologist.  I suggest you
study the Bible to learn more about spiritual matters.  Without that knowledge you are manipulated
by evil spirits like a puppet.”

Ya know, this stuff never happens to me; I mean that manipulation by evil spirits and stuff. It just doesn’t happen to me! And I attribute this immunity I have to the tin foil hat that I wear to bed at night: those spirits just can’t gain access to my perfectly protected brain cells! You should try it—it works!

During the day (when the Sun, another tool of the Devil himself, that Sun) beats down and tries to kidnap my brain cells for nefarious purposes, I keep a cast iron skillet on my head using a padded, rolled cloth and that really works, too! You should try it. I never, ever have to worry about the Devil and his attendant evil spirits getting to me—I’m just too well protected. You should try it—it really works!

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By Inherit The Wind, March 31, 2010 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment

The number and passion of neo-nazi racist Jew-haters on this thread is enough to make me SICK!  It’s enough to make me want to get a pump-action shotgun to defend my family from these swastika lovers.

Scapegoating rather than facing problems—and your OWN inadequacies.

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By nemesis2010, March 31, 2010 at 5:29 pm Link to this comment

@ jackwbarnes1:

Wow, what a load of bullshit. What was your being willing to die for your country in the 40s have to do with anything? Haven’t multiples of millions been willing over the course of the past 230+ years? It’s not like you’ve been the only one.

Have you ever bothered to study the origins of neo-conservatism? Are you aware that Leo Strauss was a devoted socialist? Where were you between 2000 and 2008 while the Bush/Cheney regime ran the nation off a cliff? Did you feel like vomiting every time that village idiot opened his mouth and lied to the nation on behalf of his neo-con and corporate masters? Did you complain about the runaway train that little Dubya was engineering to record high deficits, budgets, unemployment, gas prices, dollar devaluation, two publically funded and unwarranted invasions and occupations of nations whose resources were coveted by corporations for exploitation and private profit? Did you vomit every time he and Cheney enhanced the “imperial presidency” at the expense of our constitutional form of government? Did you vote for the Bush/Cheney regime? Because if you did you should vomit at what you see in the mirror!

You seem to have swallowed the kool-aid Jackie boy because your little dig about everyone either being on the ”GOVERNMENT PAYROLL OR SOME FORM OF WELFARE” is a typical Reich-wing technique for implying that all liberals. Progressives, left-wingers, etc. are lazy and just want to live off the labor of all those “real Americans.” Do you even realize that all those Republican politicians live off the government dole too? Even the republican holy trinity of Reagan, Bush, and Cheney! As a matter of fact two members of that unholy trinity weren’t willing to die themselves for their country but had no problem sending others to die.

Have you read the latest figures on the state of Alaska after its turmoil with Jeebus’ self-proclaimed fiscal conservative quitter governor? She left it with the 70 percent debt-to-GDP ratio. That’s only the highest state debt burden in the United States! Some say she’s knowing but Bush in drag and they just might be right!

All empires go the way of the Roman Empire because all empires die.

Try switching your kool-aid for a single malt, 12 year old Scotch whiskey Jack; it’ll clear all that fluff from your head and having you thinking like a man in no time.

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By nikto, March 31, 2010 at 4:33 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

mlb,

Beautifully said!

How eloquent and insightful you are.

I’d buy you a beer (or coffee), anytime.

But I’m sure we live 2000 miles apart.

Sigh.

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By prosefights, March 31, 2010 at 4:32 pm Link to this comment

Let’s see what cnn moderators do.


Your comment is awaiting moderation.

We continue to believe that settlement with Iran is the best idea.

Iran, the US, and most of the world needs additional electricity.

We all appear to have a problem with increased electricity usage, costs and possible future shortages.

Bombing Iran’s nuclear generation electricity facility may make matters worse.

Like WWIII?

Posted by: bill payne

Should be facilities rather than facility.

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By msgmi, March 31, 2010 at 3:47 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Sarah Palin a neoCON Messiah? How about Lucifer in disguise. Palin’s capital rests with disinformation and denial; nothing less.

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By omop, March 31, 2010 at 3:39 pm Link to this comment

jackwbarnes1

Befure you try to throw uo better read and read the link below.

The reason were going down unless we change,180 degrees is due to the
chickenhawk neocons and the Israeli lobby that made a plan for Bush to invade,
Iraq, Syria, Iran and Afghanistan.

Would be interested in your comments after you read and re-read why we are
in the mess we are in. Americans dying and getting crippled by the thousands
just so that Israel stays top dog in the Middle East.

Time to wake up and smell the reality. Sarah Palin is a comic book female
mouthing off bs. If she had an honorable and moral upbringing she would not
have looked the other way when her daughter was getting laid in the bedroom
next to hers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean_Break:_A_New_Strategy_for_Securing_the
_Realm

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By jackwbarnes1, March 31, 2010 at 2:43 pm Link to this comment

ROBERT SCHEER SAID A MOUTHFUL WHEN HE ADMITS TO BEING A
PROGRESSIVE. WHEN I READ MOST OF THE COMMENTS ON THE ABOVE
SUBJECT I WANT TO THROW UP.I’LL BET MOST OF THESE RESPONDENTS
ARE EITHER ON THE GOVERNMENT PAYROLL OR SOME FORM OF WELFARE.
I AM NOW 82 YEARS OLD; WAS WILLING TO DIE FOR MY COUNTRY IN THE
FORTIES AND NOW SEE MY COUNTRY GOING THE SAME WAY AS THE
ROMAN EMPIRE. UNLESS WE CHANGE THIS RUN AWAY TRAIN IN NOV.YOU
CAN WAVE OUR FREE ENTERPRISE GOODBY.

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By nemesis2010, March 31, 2010 at 12:35 pm Link to this comment

Sarah Palin is nothing more than a part of the opening act of panem et circenses until the main event—the national elections—begins in earnest next year. Unless Big Media Corp has strict hands-off orders from Big Corp, Sarah will be exposed for the utterly uninformed, fundamentalist Christian buffoon that she is. Sarah cannot outshine a 40 watt bulb and anyone thinking that she can is even dimmer than she. 

Any Teabagger action can be quickly squashed by having Wal Mart have a sale on guns, all camouflage apparel, and plaid flannel shirts—especially the XXX sizes—on any day that a Teabagger function is to take place.

As for the neo-cons; everything that they’ve put their hands to has ended in complete and utter disaster. Neo-cons are—more than any other entity other than the state of Israel itself—more responsible for what I believe is easily the most negative view of Jewish people, outside of Muslim countries, since pre-WWII.


@ christian96:

Writing a book to help impressionable teenagers believe in mythology as fact is not a service to one’s community; it’s a disservice! Religion is a scourge to humanity.

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By taikan, March 31, 2010 at 12:09 pm Link to this comment

“Indeed, from health care, the banking bailout and on to Mideast peace, it is difficult to find a single policy proposal from Obama that Bill and Hillary Clinton had not both previously embraced.” 

What an interesting admission for Mr. Scheer to make.  Does this mean he will display greater sympathy for the many Democrats who supported Obama in the primaries because they thought there was a significant difference between Obama and Hilary Clinton, and who are now upset with Obama?

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Calabashe's avatar

By Calabashe, March 31, 2010 at 11:45 am Link to this comment

“And all presidents in a classroom are either good while presiding or become good eventually!”

IDK, balkas - How about Hoover and Nixon? Dubbya has a good chance of makin’ the shit list as well.

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By glagadec, March 31, 2010 at 11:22 am Link to this comment

Please, somebody tell me I’m wrong and why; I want to be wrong, really. My ego can take it, but are we spinning out of control in this country? Was Orwell correct when he a said ” I have seen the future- it is a boot crushing a human face”....or something like that. I am by nature a pretty cynical man in the short run and an optimist in the long view…but I live in the short run, not the theoretical abstractions of the future when all this craziness will hopefully run down into the pudding of grime and nonesense that it is. Sarah Plain is in an historical position to be actually listened to? What about Curley and Moe?? You know devolution is close behind when irony becomes increasingly impossible.

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By Bushfatigue, March 31, 2010 at 10:23 am Link to this comment

It must really grind the neo-cons that a majority of Israelis still think that Obama is “fair” or “friendly” to Israel (mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/03/19/so_what_do_israelis_think_of_it_all_by_daniel_levy) and nearly 70% of American Jews support his role of peace-maker in Palestine, even if it means criticizing Israel as well as the Palestinians.

The neo-cons are increasingly on an island of their own imagining, regarding where Jews, both in Israel and here, not to mention world opinion, are on questions of peace and justice in the Middle East.

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