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Rape and Spillage

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Posted on Jun 15, 2010
oil spill
AP / Eric Gay

The Transocean Deepwater Discoverer drilling rig, center, and support vessels operate over the site of the Deepwater Horizon oil spill on Sunday.

By Robert Scheer

What’s with the president’s war analogy on the oil spill? It’s as if some alien force, “The Invasion of the Slippery Sludge,” suddenly attacked us. “Abroad, our brave men and women in uniform are taking the fight to al-Qaida,” President Barack Obama said Tuesday in his White House speech, “and tonight, I’ve returned from a trip to the Gulf Coast to speak with you about the battle we’re waging against an oil spill that is assaulting our shores and our citizens.”

What nonsense. The oil was minding its own business until some multinational corporations, enabled by a dysfunctional government regulatory regime, decided to wage war on the ecological balance of the oceans by employing technology that they were not prepared to control. Cleaning up the oil spill mess we made by raping the environment to satiate our consumer gluttony is not a glorious battle against evil but rather obligatory penance for the profound error of our ways.

You wound Mother Nature by punching a hole deep in her pristine ocean where you have no business going and when she bleeds uncontrollably you dare blame her for the assault? This from a president who shortly before this disaster had given the oil companies permission to pillage in the deep seas at will. At least now he admits to having been extremely naive in his belief that they knew what they were doing:

“A few months ago, I approved a proposal to consider new, limited offshore drilling under the assurance that it would be absolutely safe—that the proper technology would be in place and the necessary precautions would be taken. That obviously was not the case on the Deepwater Horizon rig, and I want to know why.”

He already knows why! It’s the same ideological obsession that led to the deregulation of the banking industry based on the assumption that the unfettered pursuit of multinational corporation profits would somehow serve the public good. In every area of federal governance the story is the same; the mammoth corporations, through their lobbyists and campaign contributions, end up controlling the government agencies ostensibly regulating the activities of the military/industrial, health, financial and communications complexes. Why be surprised that the oil conglomerates are also in bed with their pretend Washington regulators? 

Obviously Obama cannot be blamed for the bipartisan endorsement of the Reagan Revolution’s siren song, a call to make the world safe for multinational corporations. The radical anti-regulation campaign—endorsed by Bill Clinton as well as the father-and-son Bush team—corrupted rather than improved the efficiency of the entire private sector, and what happened with the oil industry was the rule and not the exception. 

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In explaining the failure of the Minerals Management Service, responsible for regulating the oil drillers, Obama stated: “Over the last decade, this agency has become emblematic of a failed philosophy that views all regulation with hostility—a philosophy that says corporations should be allowed to play by their own rules and police themselves. At this agency, industry insiders were put in charge of industry oversight. Oil companies showered regulators with gifts and favors, and were essentially allowed to conduct their own safety inspections and write their own regulations.”

That damning indictment of the corporate corruption of our political process should stand as a cautionary tale to those like the majority in those red states now suffering so because of the offshore drilling of which their voters previously approved. Hopefully they, and the president who catered to such impulses, will take away from this very costly mess a justifiable skepticism about the risk assessments of plunderers who treat natural treasures as nothing more than potential profit centers. 

The public goes along because, as with the jobs created by military spending and the false wealth of financial bubbles, it is blinded by lavishly funded corporate PR to the true costs of such reckless corporate behavior. It is understandable that folks struggling to get by would fall for that line, but it is inexcusable when the political elite in Washington that know better goes along with such chicanery. 

The war that needs to be fought and won is against corporate dominance of every important aspect of our political culture. I hope this disaster, its impact revised upward by the government on Tuesday to represent an Exxon Valdez-size spill of oil into the Gulf every four days, will facilitate that. The difference between the new estimate, 60,000 barrels of oil a day, and BP’s original claim of 5,000 barrels a day is just another example of the systemic corporate deceit that has characterized this immense catastrophe. This is the wakeup call to fight corporate arrogance that we, and our president, desperately needed. 

Click here to check out Robert Scheer’s book,
“The Great American Stickup: How Reagan Republicans and Clinton Democrats Enriched Wall Street While Mugging Main Street.”


Keep up with Robert Scheer’s latest columns, interviews, tour dates and more at www.truthdig.com/robert_scheer.



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BR549's avatar

By BR549, June 18, 2010 at 6:40 pm Link to this comment

Re:  Night-Gaunt, June 18 at 5:50 pm
“Remember a barrel of oil is 660 gallons.”

As Truthdigger3 has stated, a barrel of oil, as used in the oil industry, is 42 US
gallons, not even the 55 gallons that most of us might have thought (even me).

As far as who would benefit from this debacle, it all depends how far down the
rabbit hole one wishes to look. Sure, it could very well be that this was nothing
more than some bizarre concatenation of events (we’d call it a cluster-fuck),
but what is worse, having a group of elitists who are intent on decimating 80%
of the world’s population through some elaborate scheme brought forth from
the Nazi regime, ....... or having a gaggle of political buffoons and
dysfunctional hemophilic pseudo-royals who have only gotten as far as they
have through a series of bizarre and totally unplanned events that have so far
allowed them to take near total control of the world’s money supply?

On one hand we have the devil incarnate; on the other we have the elitist
version of Barney Fife.

I tend to view it from intention. When I see Obama and Gore trying desperately
to force the Carbon Tax through, whether we need it or not, Rep. Rosa
DeLauro trying to make it illegal for Granny to grow tomatoes in her own back
yard, Sen. Russ Feingold pulling a bait-and-switch maneuver with a save the
Great Lakes bill that allows the Feds to take control of all the agricultural ponds
across the US, then I start to ask myself what is going on. And while we are at
it, let’s look at the origins and history of Codex Alimentarius, and how it came
back onto the scene after the the Bilderburg commission was formed and the
last of the I.G. Farben executives were released from prison. Couple that last
part with the multiple assaults on the supplement industry after commercial
agriculture has all but decimated the trace mineral profile from our soil profile
and the picture gets a little clearer as to how Monsanto has gained such a
disproportionate piece of the agricultural pie and why GMO crops are one of
the most dangerous things our technology has produced.

When I was flying out of Denver in ‘97, I was wondering why there were so
many acres (probably hundreds of acres) of construction materials and PILES of
excavated dirt near the airport, it just didn’t make any sense. But when I later
found out that an entire city was being built under the airport, I wondered if
the average citizen was going to ever see this city. And with all the economic
problems we are facing now, the government is still still using our tax dollars
to build, fast and furious, not only the Denver facility, but the recent discovery
of the underground construction under Chicago (I think) and the countless
detention facilities that too many people are still in near total denial about.

On that last issue, one of my client’s mother-in-law had driven about an hour
to check out a rumor of one of those “detention facilities” just north of where
she lived on the East Coast, only to find that it was all true. Here was a
converted college campus with a skeleton staff and a double row of barbed
wire, both FACING INWARD, around the entire facility. That matches pretty well
with the two I located in California, all with the barbed wire facing inward. And
there’s supposed to be about 850 of them, from last count; on converted
campuses, old municipal buildings, existing military bases.

So, while some people are still sighing and rolling their eyes back over yet
another seeming onslaught of conspiracy fodder, I would ask you to explain
what conditions would produce a situation where both the dollar AND the price
of gold are going up at the same time.

Are we all the unwitting sheep in some elaborate plan to depopulate the planet
.... or are these people who profess to be able to manage this population really
that inept and incapable of running a lemonade stand? Enlighten us.

Report this

By ofersince72, June 18, 2010 at 6:01 pm Link to this comment

Just when you think it can’t get worse , more depressing
news gets leaked out….
I believe the website is The Helium,,not sure but Helium
is the key word.

  It seems that 12 months before this happened they were
warned that the Horizon was drilling right above a huge
methane depostit also, and that this is what may have
caused the blow,
  It is an enourmous deposit with 100,000psi
They said warnings that this got breached would be
cracks in the ocean floor , these have already been
revealed.  And if it this blows, tidel waves tsunami
of a size never seen before…Crap, not to mention
all the poisonous gases..Damn…
PropheCy or PropheSy
which is your desire?
PropheCy and PropheSy
they’re setting the
world on fire….........

Report this

By Alan MacDonald, June 18, 2010 at 5:51 pm Link to this comment

How can BP possibly pay for their ‘negative externality costs’ which may destroy all our world’s oceans?

CorExit is real life “Ice-Nine” from Kurt Vonnegut’s existential, ‘black-comedy’ novel “Cat’s Cradle” (1963).

And this video of a U.S. Air Force crew flying ‘on the deck’ and spraying CorExit for BP corporation looks exactly and eerily like the B-52 cockpit scenes with ‘Major Kong’ (Slim Pickens) approaching their nuclear target ‘on the deck’ in Stanley Kubrick’s 1964 ‘black comedy’ anti-war film “Dr. Strangelove”.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/ybenjamin/detail??blogid=150&entry_id=65552

The only difference between the film and the video is that one is ‘fictional’ and supposedly dropping a 30 megaton nuclear bomb on the Soviet Empire and being done by the American Empire, while the other is ‘factual’ and actually dropping tons of CorExit on our own earth and being done by the global corporatist EMPIRE.

Here’s a great article, from a trusted Maine marine toxicologist about this truly ‘existential’ damage being done by CorExit, BP, and the entire ruling-elite Global corporate/financial/militarist EMPIRE—which is killing us, the US, our democracy, our fragile blue earth, and our species.

http://www.examiner.com/x-10438-Human-Rights-Examiner~y2010m6d15-Gulf-residents-gassed-Fl-prepares-evacuation


You may enjoy reading Kurt Vonnegut’s prescient ‘back-humor’ novel “Cat’s Cradle” in which he envisions a former atomic bomb scientist working at GE Research labs inventing an isotope of natural water with surface chemistry altered to make it solid at 114 degrees—- and which causes the ‘fictional’ end of the world, when it accidentally falls into the ocean during the death of a ‘fictional’ dictator’s funeral in San Lorenzo. Quite a story. Quite an ending! (as Vonnegut might have said).

Anyway, you may also enjoy Googling and checking out the real life ‘Surface Chemist’ Nobel laureate at GE (Irving Langmuir) who Vonnegut used as a model for his fictional Dr. Hoenikker in “Cat’s Cradle”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat’s_Cradle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Langmuir

The book is a great read, the analogy between fictional “Ice-Nine” and real ‘CorExit’ shows that truth is stranger than fiction, and Vonnegut’s mastery and miracle of what Berkeley’s leading cognitive scientist, George Lakoff, describes as ‘analogy-thinking’ will blow your mind.

Best,
Alan MacDonald
Sanford, Maine

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By truedigger3, June 18, 2010 at 5:47 pm Link to this comment

Re:By Night-Gaunt, June 18 at 5:50 pm #


Night-Gaunt wrote:
“Remember a barrel of oil is 660 gallons. So whatever number of barrels times 660 will give you an idea of how much is out there”
_________________________________________________

Night-Gaunt,

One barrel of oil is equal to Forty two(42) gallons.
Of course, what is happenig in the Gulf is still a catastrophe.!

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, June 18, 2010 at 1:50 pm Link to this comment

Remember a barrel of oil is 660 gallons. So whatever number of barrels times 660 will give you an idea of how much is out there. If I recall correctly- one quart of oil can contaminate 1,000 gallons of water. So do some more math on that. It is dizzying.

Believe me when I say there is no good reason for this happening except for BP’s chinzy moves to cut corners and save money. Also most such companies have done little R&D on this for such a likelihood. So what was done in 1979 is being done now and failing in much deeper water. Only the cross relief well worked on the Ixtoc in 200’ of water. We hope it works again today. But if the deep fracturing of the strata is proven it could mean the death of the Gulf of Mexico for many decades if not centuries to come.

Who will profit from this debacle? BP? No. The US gov’t and sitting president? No. The ecology? No. All the businesses and homes on the shorelines up and down the coast from Matagorda to the Keys? I think not. Whatever benefits will be short lived and temporary from the cleaning jobs because of it but at a steep price. Such conspiracy hypotheses are without merit. Nothing is good coming out of this except after the fact. Maybe all oil/methane drillers will need to prove they can handle such a wreck in such deep waters or they can’t drill.

Over the years starting in 1979 the restraints on business have been lessened and lifted. Also the various gov’t organizations have been under funded and staffed with those who are hostile to any regulation. So in a way many aspects of business (right wing) Libertarianism has been put into motion and found wanting. Why? Because we got to see what happens when businesses regulate themselves and it is exemplified in the BP/Trans Ocean Mega-disaster unfolding for the foreseeable future.

Donald Nygaard, NPR is lukewarm but is still mostly supported by the upper class and corporate money unlike Pacifica Radio which I would recommend you finding if you want something truly alternate to the present Corporate owned MSM. Start on the InterNet with Democracy Now.

ofersince72, you do exaggerate when you say that TruthDig; “I would so like to see a relentless vilification of the White House press corp, spearheaded by Robert Scheer and the Truth Dig journalists, not letting them up for air.” Is so melodramatic and hyperbolic into the purple prose extremity. TruthDig will do nothing no matter what they write to affect the gov’t anymore than the last one. But I am with you for them to go ahead—you never know what may happen.

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By ofersince72, June 18, 2010 at 1:32 pm Link to this comment

Was it really lightning, or just another small
  blowout,
  We will never know, because
  We have been lied to
  from the very instant that
  the rig blew up and killed
  eleven crew members and
  they keep a “no fly zone”
  on the Gulf of Mexico as if
  it was a war zone. But listening
  to our president, that is what it is,
  war on our beaches, like we are being
  attacked by some unknown aggressor

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By dbmetzger, June 18, 2010 at 12:36 pm Link to this comment

Getting back to raping, pillaging and gushing…With the oil spill we’re paying less attention than ever about the dangerous toxins being released into our air and water. At the top of an EPA list of toxins being “gushered” into the air Exxon/Mobil is near the top of the lists. Michael Ash, co-director of the Corporate Toxics Information Project, argues that the EPA needs more regulation, not just “inform the public.” He points to the European policy of preemptive regulation as a model for American policymakers.
http://www.newslook.com/videos/221189-100-top-toxic-air-polluters-in-usa?autoplay=true

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By ofersince72, June 18, 2010 at 12:10 pm Link to this comment

I would like to see by journalists, starting here on
Dig, instead of contrast and comparison of the Capitol
Hill lawmakers,

  a likeness and likeness comparison exposing the
good guy, bad guy routine that has trapped american
voters for decades, that infects the whole journalism
industry to a real TRUTH DIG.

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By ofersince72, June 18, 2010 at 12:03 pm Link to this comment

I would so like to see a relentless villification
of the White House press corp, spearheaded by
Robert Scheer and the Truth Dig journalists, not letting
them up for air.

Report this

By Donald Nygaard, June 18, 2010 at 11:32 am Link to this comment

By archivesDave, June 17 at 9:10 pm

I believe your point was to cast aspersions on the integrity of NPR when you commented:

“Good luck in getting NPR to jump on any of this before it hits mainstream Fox, MSNBC, etc. I think deep down you know full well that all these guys are bought and sold by the elitist Globalists.”

May I remind you of this quote from the news report found at my previous link?

At NPR’s request, experts examined video that BP released Wednesday. Their findings suggest the BP spill is already far larger than the 1989 Exxon Valdez accident in Alaska, which spilled at least 250,000 barrels of oil.” To this reader, it looks like NPR was first to call bullsh*t on the stories emanating from British Petroleum and echoed so faithfully by what Sarah Palin calls the “lame-stream” media (did I just quote the moron from Wasilla?). Thank goodness NPR did dig deeper because their doing so raised the curtain of secrecy surrounding current spill estimates, ultimately leading to the truth.

I’m not one for conspiracy theories but the “elitist globalists” at NPR seem to do credible journalism in an age of corporate-owned media you rightfully despise. Your conflating listener-funded NPR with the likes of FOX or MSNBC seems a stretch. Near as I can tell, they do the “three actuals” of truth seeking: They go to the actual place, see the actual thing in progress, and talk to actual people who know something. In other words, they don’t just interview one another to elicit biases and approved story lines. Nor do they argue an agenda with guests. They ask questions and rely upon listeners to decide, based upon the merits. For me, NPR provides a reasonable overview to the key issues of our times. No, it’s not the whole story. That’s where intellectual curiosity comes in, along with a diverse reading list of not only the periodical literature, but stuff what comes in books.

Mr. Archives, I agree with you one may be under informed by paying sole attention to a narrow slice of the journalistic spectrum. Like you, I come here to TruthDig in order to get a healthy dose of well-written opinion and counterpoint (some, but not all of which is useful). 

Perhaps where TruthDig and I diverge is it feeds a steady angry diet of “red meat” to righteously disaffected readers who get confirmation of their similarly angry viewpoint(s). Thus, we get drawn out diatribes about theories of governance and conspiracy, rarely constructive alternatives to solving real problems (in other words: Just because I’m angry doesn’t mean I’m wrong doesn’t bring us closer to a solution).

In closing, it seems to me we should be putting wind over the wings of credible news sources, not tearing them down (bad metaphor). I would like to see this discussion group become a force for change. Is it possible for us to come together and articulate a vision based upon actual fact?

As I said in another post, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

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tropicgirl's avatar

By tropicgirl, June 18, 2010 at 11:27 am Link to this comment

archivesDave—

totally got you on that….

(my caution to them… you’d better kill us all because what doesn’t kill us will
make us ferocious)

Report this

By archivesDave, June 18, 2010 at 11:05 am Link to this comment

Tropicgirl:
Thanks for the input, will continue to check this out.
About your query as to why the MSM doesn’t cover a lot of this, I think you do intrinsically know the answer.
If not, then all u need do is to engage in some gumshoeing on the G-20, IMF, etc, platform objectives.
Control of the media is right up on top and they’re
performing magnificently.

Report this

By archivesDave, June 18, 2010 at 10:45 am Link to this comment

EH and BR:
Yeah, I understand your point but over the past few months as I’ve attempted to stay abreast of a few blogs like this, I observe the same philosophical issues being hammered on over and over by many who don’t truly seem to be searching but instead are intent on cerebrally jousting as if this were some type of chess match. 
When they throw ad homen spears at each other, it’s quite apparent they have no intention of empathetically listening and are totally driven by their kindergarten ego.
My purpose in these blogs is to lay aside my competitive armor and earnestly try to walk in the
other guy’s shoes as the old Indian quote goes.

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tropicgirl's avatar

By tropicgirl, June 18, 2010 at 10:43 am Link to this comment

There are many references on the web for this report from the Minerals Dept.

Although you will not find the actual story on the MSM, you will find the story if
you try, from legit sources.

http://www.businessinsider.com/mms-documents-show-bp-was-
struggling-to-fix-cracks-as-early-as-february-2010-6#ixzz0r8kzEMDF

Don’t be afraid to visit the underground internet press. There you will find the
story linked to the MSM sources that originally reported on it. Check out the
sources yourself. Just Google some of the phrases, and viola, many articles
often appear from legit sources regarding so-called secret information, being
withheld on the MSM. Judge the actual sources, not the reporting vehicle.

No one can explain, (we have an idea, though) why the MSM keeps refusing to
pick up on these important stories about the way BP and O-Stupid continue to
misrepresent what is happening.

The toxic chemicals are not being reported either.

And now some are saying the running video of the spill is does not reflect the
actual intensity of the spill, therefore, a staged video. Don’t know but someone
said they took the video down now.

If we don’t get some eyewitnesses down there, with investigative equipment,
videos and testing, we will never be told the real truth, I feel.

But again, I don’t really know how they expect to hide this stuff eventually. The
best thing here is to get the actual report, like others have already done.

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By ofersince72, June 18, 2010 at 10:26 am Link to this comment

so we go libitarian stupid ideology
      republican stupid ideology
    an ideology of stupid to support democrats

we’re screwed, no doubt about it

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Ed Harges's avatar

By Ed Harges, June 18, 2010 at 9:34 am Link to this comment

re:By BR549, June 18 at 1:22 pm:

I agree, BR549. Refuting the anti-regulatory ideology that got us here is not a
trivial side issue. And libertarianism is merely the most religiously pure form of
this stupid ideology.

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BR549's avatar

By BR549, June 18, 2010 at 9:22 am Link to this comment

Re:  archivesDave, June 18 at 12:49 pm
“I’m amused how certain ones here continue down the rabbit trail chasing each
others tails as well as their own.”

That’s because some people see the interrelation between all these events .....
and others don’t. Those can only deal with one concept at a time.

..... and that is EXACTLY what the problem is in Washington. Their individual
and collective myopia, if not outright greed, has brought about a regulatory
system that actually serves the entities which were needing to be regulated,
and a dishonest system of governance for a constituency which has ceased to
be the prime focus for too long.

Everyone here has been contributing in their own way so that we can all
understand that there are others out there who aren’t as blind and stupid as
the MSM would paint the general public out to be. Some of us may disagree on
some things here and there, but the beauty of sites like this is that we can see
how many people are really pissed off at what is happening.

I don’t think it necessary to have every post include output and cleanup data in
order for us to also understand how this problem developed.

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Ed Harges's avatar

By Ed Harges, June 18, 2010 at 9:15 am Link to this comment

re:By archivesDave, June 18 at 1:38 am:

This think tank, “The Oil Drum,” seems pretty reputable.
Wouldn’t it be nice if its findings could find their way onto
Rachel Maddow or some other high-profile media venue,
to be debunked if nothing else.

I mean, if these analysts are even half right, we are all toast!

Report this

By samosamo, June 18, 2010 at 8:51 am Link to this comment

Don’t know how this would work but check it out.

But my old brain cells have me to thinking about a submarine
sinking in the pacific, russian, and the US Navy along with
howard huges, I believe, clausdestinely were able to salvage
some things from it 5 km down in the pacific.

http://rusnavy.com/news/othernavies/index.php?
ELEMENT_ID=8716

“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”
15.02.2010
CIA declassified secret salvage operation of Soviet submarine K-
129.

Project 629A diesel-electric submarine K-129 of Soviet Pacific
Fleet sank in 1968 northwest of Hawaii in unclear circumstances.
On board the sub were three R-21 ballistic missiles armed with
nuclear warheads.

American intelligence has not promulgated even the minutest
particulars of so called Project Azorian (erroneously called
Project Jennifer by press) – lifting of K-129 sub in 1974.
Industrial tycoon Howard Hughes sponsored for the operation
about $1.5 bln in today’s money.

However, U.S. National Security Archive sent a request based on
Freedom of Information Act and consequently CIA issued a
report last Friday which illuminates those events but does not
disclose all secrets of Project Azorian though.

In particular, the 50-page report published in 1985 in CIA in-
house journal says that the US President Richard Nixon with
intention to gain samples of Soviet nuclear weapon and
cryptographic equipment made a decision to lift K-129 despite
advices of top-ranking military chiefs and the fact that the sub
was laying at the depth of 5,000 meters.

Even enormous cost of operation and anxiety of worsening
relations with the USSR did not make Nixon to wash out his plan.
In shortest term a special vessel Hughes Glomar Explorer was
launched. To conceal the real purpose of the platform, it was
built as a drilling vessel and named after manufacturer Howard
Hughes.

Hughes Glomar Explorer was permanently in the spotlight of
Soviet ships and helicopters. Being afraid that the Soviets would
try to storm the vessel, the crew blocked heliport of Hughes
Glomar Explorer with crates, says the CIA report.

With military honors the Americans buried at sea bodies of six
Soviet submariners found inside the sunken K-129 and took
away submarine wreckage. It is uncertain what exactly fragments
were taken, what were the results of study and whether the
project recovered its budget. According to Lockheed’s engineer
who took part in the operation, they could not lift either missiles
or cryptographic hardware with codebooks which might be
useful for intelligence; they only managed to pick up two
torpedoes with nuclear warheads.

The report says Project Azorian provided the U.S. with
“incorporeal benefits” – strengthening morale of intelligence
officers and improvement in lifting techniques of submerged
heavy wreckage.

“Lifting a 1,750-ton sub from 5-km depth had never been
carried out before. Government or authority which is frightened
of undertaking responsibility for foreseeable risks while
pursuing an objective would not be true both to themselves and
people they serve for”, says the reporter.

From the viewpoint of historians and journalists, this statement
is a bureaucratic excuse of another not-worth-powder-and-
shot expensive venture, summarizes FOX News.

Source: RusNavy.com, photo: Hughes Glomar Explorer at
California on Aug 29, 1975 (AP)

So who should be in charge of this? People who have done what
is posted above or should we just let bp keep’ jacking off the
mule’, dilly dallying around acting intelligent?
The technology and equipment is available though it would take
some effort to bring it ‘online’, so to speak.

Matter of fact, several of these should, at the expense of oil
industry, be available and at the ready.

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By archivesDave, June 18, 2010 at 8:49 am Link to this comment

tropicgirl:
Excellent points: Would like more references if possible.
Thanks for getting us back on track.  I’m amused how certain ones here continue down the rabbit trail chasing each others tails as well as their own.

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BR549's avatar

By BR549, June 18, 2010 at 8:24 am Link to this comment

Re:  John Ellis, June 18 at 11:43 am #
ALL GOVERNMENTS — BRAINPOWER DICTATORSHIPS

“So, never has there been a government on earth that was not a brainpower
dictatorship ruled by the fastest minds of those who wanted to compete for
power and wealth.”

Here is where we differ. What motivates that “fastest mind” concept you speak
of is the problem. To the point where those fastest minds feel that the whole
system functions around them, rather than the reverse, that is the ultimate
disconnect. Hopefully, these people, who had been able to this point convince
everyone that they were up to the task, in reality, were only more proficient in
their cunning. So, in essence, we are still stuck back in Neolithic times, except
we’ve replaced ICBMs for spears and factory farms for grazing.

Does that mean we should all just say fuck it and throw in the towel, leaving
our destiny in the hands of a band of socially dysfunctional ne’er-do-wells?
No, but we have to start seeing where the real problem is.

Our founding fathers, taking aspects of the Magna Carta and the writings of
John Locke, came very close, but I don’t think they had ever envisioned the rate
of change that was to take place. I’m not sure which one said this (perhaps
Jefferson) but our Constitution was going to have to be revised at some point.
That much they did see. I think that banking troll just commandeered the
bridge far to early in the game.

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tropicgirl's avatar

By tropicgirl, June 18, 2010 at 8:13 am Link to this comment

BP was aware of cracks appearing in the Macondo well as far back as February,
right around the time Goldman Sachs and BP Chairman Tony Hayward were
busy dumping their stocks in the company on the eve of the explosion that led
to the oil spill, according to information uncovered by congressional
investigators.

The Mining and Mineral Services agency released documents to Bloomberg
indicating that BP “was trying to seal cracks in the well about 40 miles (64
kilometers) off the Louisiana coast,” according to the report.

The fissures, which BP began to attempt to fix on February 13, could have
played a role in the disaster, though this is a question still being explored by
investigators. Improperly sealed, the cracks cause explosive natural gas to rush
up the shaft.

“The company attempted a “cement squeeze,” which involves pumping cement
to seal the fissures, according to a well activity report. Over the following week
the company made repeated attempts to plug cracks that were draining
expensive drilling fluid, known as “mud,” into the surrounding rocks,” states
the report.

As previously highlighted, eyewitness evidence indicates that Deepwater
Horizon managers knew that the BP oil rig had major problems before its
explosion on April 20. A crew member who rescued burning workers on the rig
told Houston attorney Tony Buzbee of a conversation between Deepwater
Horizon installation manager Jimmy Harrell and someone in Houston.

According to the witness, Harrell was screaming, “Are you f-king happy? Are
you f-king happy? The rig’s on fire! I told you this was gonna happen.”

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By ThomasG, June 18, 2010 at 7:44 am Link to this comment

BR549, June 18 at 11:14 am,

I have been advocating an institutionalized Multi-Party Political System for the United States together with coalition governance, so that all political factions can be represented in the making and enforcing of legislated law and order in the United States.

This type of a system would allow political factions that are not politically represented in the making and enforcing of legislated law and order to elect their own representatives, so that all political factions would have a part in the making and enforcing of legislated law and order in the United States.

With a Multi-Party Political System the problems you expressed in your post would be effectively negated by the will of the people not being tied to entrenched political parties; i.e, the Democratic Party and the Republican Party.

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By ofersince72, June 18, 2010 at 7:42 am Link to this comment

The analogy I see of the libertarian movement is that
of the pervert hanging around the schoolyard offering
lollypops.
The performance of both the Democrat and Republican
parties over the last decade was bound to create many
feeling disenfranchized. Even the spoon fed sheeple saw
through the corporate control of both parties creating
a large herd without direction.
  And guess who was there for them; “here , take some of
my candy sheeple”, creating this faux populist movement.
A group of smooth talking business men offering less
government because now sheeple, you can see ALL government
is bad.  Now they are all are sucking all their all day
suckers.

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By BR549, June 18, 2010 at 7:14 am Link to this comment

Re:  ThomasG, June 18 at 10:36 am #
BR549, June 18 at 10:22 am,

“Are you comparing Libertarianism to cancer cells in a human body having the
freedom to do as they please without regard for the human body to which they
are attached as a parasite?”

Actually, I was referring to any form of government that loses sight of what its
ultimate function should be. I happen to see Libertarianism as a potentially
dangerous follow up to the myopic focus of the Bush Administration, although
having now seen how Obama has been emasculated, does it really make any
difference as to which party we are talking about? The parties have nothing to
do with the direction of this country. Maybe a one point they did.

So, to answer your question, ANY part of the body that becomes physiologically
disenfranchised from the larger picture is going to start hoarding resources for
its own purposes, whether it is the brain, a lung, or the pancreas. In this case,
the brain (Washington) has been off doing its own thing for far too long. Any
government that doesn’t recognize the earlier and subtler symptoms of social
dysfunction is doomed to suffer from the cancer it helped to foster. We have
for far too long elected a group of people who are better qualified to be used
car salesmen, and who certainly are not qualified to handle any degree of
power or wealth. That goes for all the parties.

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By Ed Harges, June 18, 2010 at 6:43 am Link to this comment

Fat Freddy asks me: “What’s wrong with private property ownership?”

Fat Freddy reminds me of Christians who want to know why non-Christians “hate
Jesus”.

Failing to worship Jesus is the same as hating Jesus, just as failing to worship
private property is hating private property.

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By ThomasG, June 18, 2010 at 6:36 am Link to this comment

BR549, June 18 at 10:22 am,

Are you comparing Libertarianism to cancer cells in a human body having the freedom to do as they please without regard for the human body to which they are attached as a parasite?

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By ThomasG, June 18, 2010 at 6:26 am Link to this comment

Fat Freddy, June 17 at 10:19 pm,

Isn’t Libertarianism a trope for individual freedom to benefit from the communal resources of others without being compelled to contribute to that from which benefit is being taken, in the same manner, essentially, as a Laissez-Nous-Faire Economy attaches itself to communal resources like a parasite to take benefit as welfare, rather than to pay the so called Free Market Price of communal resources that are used at the expense of the American Populace as a community???????

The freedom of Libertarianism to claim benefit at someone else’s expense is oppression for those who provide benefit without compensation.

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By BR549, June 18, 2010 at 6:22 am Link to this comment

Re:  Ed Harges, June 18 at 9:35 am #
“That’s like saying that my garden has been overtaken by weeds
and destructive insects, which shows that gardens are bad. Or I have lung
cancer, so lungs are bad. Libertarianism makes as little sense as any other
religion.”

I think your point is that if your garden is overtaken by weeds, were you too
busy watching the ball games over the last five years to pay any attention to
the soil? The garden isn’t bad, unless we don’t do anything to correct it if we
were desiring a different outcome, and then we can see that the problem with
corporations is that, like our TV set, it is too tempting for the legislature to dive
into the deep end of the corruption pool head first. The legislature is so
absorbed with immediate gratification (like staying addictively glued to the
wide screen) that it ignores any holistic approach to sustaining itself.

As in the human body, healthy cells will take care of the whole body and
indeed possess a higher level of connection in order to meet that end, whereas
unhealthy cells spend too much time having to take care their own needs and
may ultimately turn feral, as in cancer, and resort to feeding off its own host to
take care of those need that the host had been ignoring for so long. In this
case, our government is the brain thinking that it is the only organ in the body,
while our crime rate and voter dissatisfaction continue to grow, the latter being
being symptoms of a disconnected and self absorbed governing body.

As much as Bob Barr had some good things to say, he just couldn’t convince me
that a Libertarian platform would be any better than the Republican free-for-
all that took place under the Bush Administration. Of course, now we realize
that it doesn’t make any difference which party gets into office. When anyone
gets into office, the first question we should be asking is what did the powers
that be have on this individual such that he or she passed muster? Exceptions
exist of course; Paul, DeFazio, Wellstone, maybe Fleming, but the vast majority
of those in Washington are THE PROBLEM.

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By Ed Harges, June 18, 2010 at 5:35 am Link to this comment

The government is being overtaken by corporations.

Freddy agrees that this is bad, but says it only shows that government is bad.

This is nonsense. That’s like saying that my garden has been overtaken by weeds
and destructive insects, which shows that gardens are bad.

Or I have lung cancer, so lungs are bad.

Libertarianism makes as little sense as any other religion.

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By truedigger3, June 18, 2010 at 3:39 am Link to this comment

Fat Freddy wrote,
“So, you think the government is protecting us from the evil corporations? Take a look around, they’re doing a hell of a job!”
___________________________________________________

Fat Freddy,

Because that government is by the corporations,  from the corporations and for the corporations and is letting the corporations running amock unhindered by any regulations and these corporations have become so big and powerful because all regualtions were watered down gradually and now the corporations are too big and powerful that they own and control the government.
You are full of shit and you damn well know it. You are not discussing in good faith but you are going round and round in circles, repeating the same trite bullshit that have been refuted before.!!
I will not waste any time or energy with you any more. Get Lost.!!

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By truedigger3, June 18, 2010 at 3:07 am Link to this comment

Fat Freddy wrote:
“The Federal Reserve system is chartered by the government. It was created by the Congress with the Federal Reserve Act of 1913”
__________________________________________________

Fat Freddy,

It is still a PRIVATELY OWNED BANK, which will take care of its owners’ interests ahead of the country. Each corporation in the country was chartered by the government(Federal or State), but still, each corporation is privately owned.
I am all for abolishing the Federal Reserve Bank and putting the issuance and control of money in the Treasury Department.
Backing the currency by gold has never worked and it will never work in a modern society based on the continuous flow of credit and financing.
Why don’t you come down to earth from your ivory tower up in the sky and think realistically about how a modern society functions, and the impact of human nature on your pipe dreams and imaginations.

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By archivesDave, June 17, 2010 at 11:38 pm Link to this comment

ofersince:
Yeah, yu did certainly walk into the ‘heyseed’ and it still brings a chuckle to me as well…Don’t get that opportunity very often so have to make the best of it.
Did u get a chance to check out Matthew Simmons’ comments yet?  Sounds like the peak of insanity to me.
Don’t know that we disagree that much but not sure how much you’ve read up on Hegel and some of the founders of modern freemasonry such as Albert Pike, Blavatski and Manly Hall.
Most of the ‘elitists’ almost consider them ‘gods’
and their philosophy is ubiquitous.

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By ofersince72, June 17, 2010 at 11:11 pm Link to this comment

I have been monitoring the BP live feeds, thats what
several of the sites I get the feeds from call them, but
all you have to do is go to BP website they have several
different shots.

The oil drum article is disturbing from another perspective also.  During all of BPs kill attempts all
of the experts always sounded positive, explaining to
the audience exactly what BP was doing in very scientific
language and kind of brushed a skeptics aside. They
always ended up being quite wrong, for a while I was
believing that the oil industry was trolling into the
oil drum.  So now that they are coming out with some
pessimistic predictions is not good.

It still brings a smile to my face when I think about
that grass seed,  I walked into that one didn’t I ?
I thought you were referring to Dr Strangelove, that is
the reference to NG is was talking about,  I am going
to take ur advice and read a little Segolovich,
usually you and I only have a few disagreements about
the future.

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By archivesDave, June 17, 2010 at 10:54 pm Link to this comment

ofersince:
Spillcam?  I’m kind of green…tell me more.
Also, where is the N.G. comment on Segalovich?

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By ofersince72, June 17, 2010 at 10:30 pm Link to this comment

Hey Dave,  Night-Guant did earlier…

  Have you looked at the spillcam tonight?

  It gets wilder everyday.

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By archivesDave, June 17, 2010 at 10:22 pm Link to this comment

OK Gang,
Here’s another zinger that brings another perspective
recommending the use of a TACTICAL NUKE…
Comments by Matthew Simmons, founder of Ocean Energy Institute.
Go to:  video.godlikeproductions.com
and search:  “matthew simmons”

Is anyone else recalling Kubrick’s ‘Dr Strangelove’..?

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By archivesDave, June 17, 2010 at 10:02 pm Link to this comment

ocjim:
Your comments and link referral on Joe Barton do give
me a glimmer of hope that We The People still have a little bit of clout.
This is one of the few victories that I’ve witnessed
that carries substantial significance.  It brings to mind an FDR anecdote.  He campaigned promising Social
Security but after being elected, was pressured by big industry Globalists to back off.  When confronted by The People to make good on his promise, he calmly stated, “I can’t do it, you’ll have to MAKE me…” The People did and thus trumped the Banksters and Corpsters.
Sadly, I’m afraid the Corpsters have much more influence today over President Obama and he’s pretty much a puppet on a string.

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By archivesDave, June 17, 2010 at 9:38 pm Link to this comment

Ed Harges et al:
Thanx Ed for the oildrum link….pretty well documented from what I’ve seen so far.
Another I am trying to research is a pretty well known Russian scientist by the name of Segalovich whom the
Air America talk show host, Mike Malloy has been referring to in his dire comments.  Cannot find much on him by Googling and wonder if someone here can do some ‘gumshoeing’.
Also the subject of this deposit being abiotic is highly debatable but sometimes the mainstream group
winds up ‘eating some very unpalatable crow’.
Medical science is a perfect example of this: The
typical doc is still taught that middle age or older folks have TOO MUCH stomach acid when the opposite
has been proven true.

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By ocjim, June 17, 2010 at 9:20 pm Link to this comment

http://www.joebartonwouldliketoapologize.com/: This website provides deserved irony for Joe Barton and the Republicans. We need to pass it around to everyone.

The apology of Republican representative, Joe Barton, to BP actually says it all. He and the Republicans, including a number of wimpish Democrats, are the reason BP is despoiling our whole Gulf coast.

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By Ed Harges, June 17, 2010 at 7:20 pm Link to this comment

More on The Oil Drum (theoildrum.com)—

(This think tank is the basis of the article I cite several times in posts below,
the article which offers an astoundingly grim analysis of the gulf blowout,
concluding that this oil geyser can never be stopped—ever):

Wikipedia:

The Oil Drum is a web-based, interactive energy, peak oil and sustainability
think tank and community devoted to the discussion of energy issues and their
impact on society. The Oil Drum is facilitated by the Institute for the Study of
Energy and Our Future, a Colorado non-profit corporation.[1] The site is a
resource for information on many energy and sustainability topics, including
peak oil, and related concepts such as oil megaprojects, Hubbert Linearization,
and the Export Land Model. The Oil Drum has over 25 online contributors from
all around the globe.

The Oil Drum was rated one of the top five sustainability blogs of 2007 by
Nielsen Netratings,[2] and is read by a diverse collection of public figures,
including Roscoe Bartlett,[3] Paul Krugman,[4] James Howard Kunstler,[5]
Richard Rainwater,[6] Matthew Simmons,[7] and Radiohead.[8] In 2008, the site
received the M. King Hubbert Award for Excellence in Energy Education from
the U.S. chapter of the Association for the Study of Peak Oil and Gas
(ASPO).[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oil_Drum

And here, once again, is the link to their frightening article:

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6593/648967

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By ThomasG, June 17, 2010 at 7:12 pm Link to this comment

Fat Freddy, June 17 at 10:19 pm,

My guidance for economics is Paul A. Samuelson the winner of the 1970 Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences and I accept Samuelson’s definitions.

I have published a proposal on Truthdig’s thread “Financial Meltdown 101” and other Truthdig threads for social capital and socialized capitalism to be used as an institutionalized means of competition with privatized capitalism, so that social capital will never have to be used again to bail out private capital and privatized capitalism.

If you want to argue the Libertarian Doctrine of Free Market Privatized Capitalism, Laissez-Nous-Faire Economics, that has been cyclically dying and being brought back to life as a zombie since its origin as God’s Will, your argument is a “dead horse argument” that I don’t want to be bothered with.

Otherwise, make your case.

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By Ed Harges, June 17, 2010 at 7:03 pm Link to this comment

re:By Donald Nygaard, June 17 at 8:21 pm:

Sorry, didn’t mean to sound snarky. All your points are well taken, and thanks for
forwarding that oildrum.com material. Maybe it’s nothing, and I’m no expert; but
it’s seems to me worth looking into.

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By Fat Freddy, June 17, 2010 at 6:53 pm Link to this comment

ThomasG

Yes Thomas, there is a difference between Chicago School (freshwater) and Austrian School. And the Chicago School basically ended in 1971 when Richard Nixon declared, “we are all Keynesians, now”. We have never really had an Austrian School economy in this country. So, the only thing you can really blame, is the failed, and flawed, Keynesian policies, because that’s what we’ve had at least, for the past 39 years.

You can believe the liberal propaganda all you want, but it is Keynesianism that is responsible, the facts do not lie. 

Keynesianism encourages debt, spending, and investment in worthless paper, while Austrian School encourages savings, and investment in production.

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By Fat Freddy, June 17, 2010 at 6:33 pm Link to this comment

the largest number of Ellis Island immigrants to RETURN to Europe were Italians (over 50% went back).

I believe that number is more like 1 in 4, depending on what time period you look at. And most of them came here with the intention of returning.

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By Fat Freddy, June 17, 2010 at 6:19 pm Link to this comment

ThomasG

...what is your solution with regard to creation of a new machine, the operation of that machine, and how the product of that machine is used???????

Well, interesting point. I’m glad you asked. The government has every right to “coin” money. It’s in the Constitution. But that’s not the issue, is it? Do you understand the difference between “fiat” money, and “commodity” money? That’s the issue. If you could explain to me the difference, I’d be happy to continue this discussion. Perhaps, while we’re on the subject, you could explain to me the difference between “Labor Value Theory”, “Marginal Utility”, and “satisfaction of needs”. I’ll assume you already understand “supply and demand”. And one more thing, the difference between “monetary inflation”, “price inflation”, and “loss of purchasing power”.

I don’t mean to be condescending, here, but these are very important terms.

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By ThomasG, June 17, 2010 at 6:14 pm Link to this comment

Fat Freddy, June 17 at 9:21 pm & BR549, June 17 at 5:55 pm,

Are you talking about the Chicago School of Libertarianism and the apostles of Laissez-Nous-Faire Economics as defined by Frank Knight (1885-1972), Henry C. Simons, Friedrich Hayek, and Milton Friedman, the advocates of the Free Market Economy as God’s Divine Will that resulted in destruction of the U.S. Economy on September 18, 2008????— Is this the Libertarianism that “you people” advocate?—Or, is it some amorphous subjective form of Libertarianism apart from the Chicago School of Libertarianism?

Isn’t radical Libertarianism a form of anarchism? —And, if so, how is anarchy going to benefit the United States and the U.S. Economy?

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By Fat Freddy, June 17, 2010 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment

truedigger3

Who will protect the average folks if the government has hands off policy and leave the field for the powerful rich corporations to do what they want.

The same people that protect us from drugs, terrorists, child molesters, pornography, foul language, trans fat, illegal aliens, cigarettes, salt, fish pedicures, and don’t forget…...cupcakes.

The same people that will clothe you, feed you, house you, and buy that new iPhone 4 for you.

So, you think the government is protecting us from the evil corporations? Take a look around, they’re doing a hell of a job!

Look, I know this is a hard concept for liberals to grasp, but free and fair competition benefits workers and consumers. The more choices that you have, the better your chances to earn a higher wage, and pay less for some gadget. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but over the past 20 years or so, corporations have been going through significant consolidation. That is not a function of a free and fair market. It is a function Socialism/Fascism, and governmental favoritism. The corporate business model is a flawed business model. It can not survive without governemnt intervention. It can not profit or properly function without help from the government. Don’t you get it? Free and fair markets do not produce monopolies, the government does.

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By BR549, June 17, 2010 at 5:48 pm Link to this comment

Re:  Maani, June 17 at 8:10 pm

Maani,
The use of the toxic dispersant Corexit to “clean up” the oil spill, despite the
existence of far less toxic compounds available through other companies, was
done to dump the existing roughly 89,000(?) gallon inventory of the unmarketable
Corexit. So rather than have to “deal” with an out of date and controversial and
toxic product, Halliburton and BP have been racing to get the stuff onto the site
before Congress or anyone can put a stop to it.

This whole disaster is just the epitome of human greed and corruption.

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By Fat Freddy, June 17, 2010 at 5:21 pm Link to this comment

ThomasG

I have no idea who this Rodney Petersen is. Perhaps you should read F.A. Hayek, Ludwig von Mises or Joseph Schumpeter, instead. Libertarians are not corporatists, we are entrepreneurs. You do know the difference, yes? If you actually took some time and did some research, you’d see that it is Libertarians that are screaming the loudest for the heads of Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, et al. You are too stupid or too pig headed to realize it. It was your Socialists that saved the Too Big to Fail, not Libertarians.

If you want to discredit Libertarians, why not go after an easy target, like Ayn Rand?

And Libertarians are not Dominionist Christian Fascists, we are mostly atheist/agnostic. I am agnostic.

But please, please tell me why you hate freedom so much? Does it scare you? Are you afraid of being left out on your own?


Note: As you can see, I did not use bold text once.

Here’s some other HTML tags that work.

italics

del

ins

blockquote

<a>anchor</a>
(a href=“URL”>[text])

This is a link

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By archivesDave, June 17, 2010 at 5:10 pm Link to this comment

Donald Nygaard et al:
Good luck in getting NPR to jump on any of this before
it hits mainstream Fox, MSNBC, etc.
I think deep down you know full well that all these guys are bought and sold by the elitist Globalists.
Just check out the overt platform objectives of such organizations as G-20: CONTROL OF THE MEDIA!!!!!

Get real guys & get off the Demo/Repub, Right/Left,
Progressive/Conservative Boogie Men Bandwagon and find out who your REAL enemy is: ‘Ordo ab Chao’...
Hegel was ONE BRILLIANT DUDE, (no matter how nefarious he was…)

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By Fat Freddy, June 17, 2010 at 4:48 pm Link to this comment

Ed Harges

Almost forgot.

You seem to have some confusion between property rights, and intellectual property rights. Libertarians do not support intellectual property rights.

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By Fat Freddy, June 17, 2010 at 4:39 pm Link to this comment

Ed Harges

What’s wrong with private property ownership? Do you think it’s OK for the government to just come and throw you out of your home, at gunpoint, because they want to sell it to some big developer for “community enhancement”? Is that OK with you? How about taking someone’s only means of livelihood (a private store) for the same reason? Is that OK with you? That’s what we mean by private property rights.

But I’ll continue your ridiculous argument. That computer you are typing on, is it not your private property? Did you not buy it with money that you earned? Is it OK for someone to come into your house and take it, or use it? Is that an “abstraction”? Why would that be any different with land, or a private business? I own my business. I saved the money, that I earned, and borrowed a little, and bought the tools and the means of production. What gives you, the government, or anybody else the right to take my property, or use it whenever they want, which I bought? Can I come and take your property? Can the government? Can some sniveling little piss ant? Even a 3 year-old understands which toys are theirs, and which ones are not. Why don’t you?

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By Donald Nygaard, June 17, 2010 at 4:21 pm Link to this comment

I give up, Ed. My comment was only to reinforce Mr. Scheer’s point that corporations (and just about everybody) hates to be seen in the wrong, i.e., human nature. Some will lie, cheat, and steal in hopes of not getting caught, as appears to be the case with British Petroleum. Sadly, their actions have a way of ruining it for the rest of us. BTW: Don’t get all self-righteous in your pride of paying attention to the internet. It’s not the only source of information and it may not be the most reliable, either.

As for The Oil Drum article, you bring some interesting information to the discussion. Of course, being from the internet it’s highly suspicious until wiser people with actual knowledge weigh in on the subject. (No. An oil policy think tank is not a wholly credible source. Especially when the author makes no mention of credentials to actually have a grasp of the facts of the matter.) Anyone here a geologist? Anyone a member of the National Academy of Sciences? Any Nobel laureates? I didn’t think so. Any actual scientists? I doubt it. Otherwise, there would be a least a sop to scientific method. Mostly, this discussion board is filled with unvarnished opinion and little fact. (Yes, that’s my opinion.)

So, is there anything accomplished by all the figurative lip-flap on this board? No! Mostly, it’s the same old folks grinding their axes, ad nauseum. Kind of boring.

How about we actually band together and do something instead of bitch from our respective foxholes? Liberals suck. Conservatives suck. Libertarians suck. All people who hold extremist views suck. The truth is, the truth lies somewhere in the middle and the more we attempt to polarize the discussion, the harder it gets to take the arguments here with any semblance of seriousness. It also makes it nigh on to impossible to actually frame an issue for definitive action that has a chance of solving problems.

Adios!

P.S. I’m going to forward The Oil Drum link to Richard Harris of National Public Radio. Perhaps he’s sniffed out this ‘bombshell’ in his search for the truth. I think you’d have to admit that’s more proactive than posting it here several times.

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By Fat Freddy, June 17, 2010 at 4:11 pm Link to this comment

truedigger3,

Here, you are right, but you forgot to mention that the Federal Reserve Bank is not owned by the federal government, but it is PRIVATELY OWNED by the major banks in the country for example: citi bank, Morgan Stanley Chase….etc.
It is like the fox is guarding and taking care of the hen house.!!!!

The Federal Reserve system is chartered by the government. It was created by the Congress with the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 and additionally The Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC) was formed by the Banking Act of 1933. It’s Board members are nominated by the president and approved by Congress. It is the ultimate collusion of public and private interests. End the Fed, end the collusion.

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By Maani, June 17, 2010 at 4:10 pm Link to this comment

Tom:

I would also encourage people to “follow the money.”  I posted the following on another thread, but it seems apropos here as well:

In early April 2010, a company named Boots & Coots was sold.  B&C is an expert at oil rigs and oil spill clean-ups.

(http://www.boots-coots.com/)

The company that bought B&C?  None other than Halliburton, one of the three companies in charge of the Deepwater Horizon rig.

(http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63907A20100410)

Almost exactly three weeks later, on April 24th, the rig exploded, creating the largest oil spill in history.  Need I tell you that B&C is one of the lead companies helping to contain the spill?  This one doesn’t take a genius to figure out - Halliburton is making money from cleaning up the spill that IT helped create…

That, of course, would be enough to raise some serious suspicion about the spill.  But it gets even uglier.  You know who one of the largest investors in BP is/was?  Goldman Sachs, and particularly Lloyd Blankfein.  And you know what Mr. Blankfein (and others at GS) did at the time that B&C was bought by Halliburton - i.e., three weeks prior to the explosion?  He sold off almost all of his BP stock - before it dropped precipitously.

(Shades of shorting stocks on 9/11…)

Oh, and the outgoing chairman of BP, Peter Sutherland?  He happens to be “Non-Executive” Chairman of Goldman Sachs.  (Oh yes, he is also personal financial adviser to…the Pope.)

No kidding.

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By truedigger3, June 17, 2010 at 2:41 pm Link to this comment

Fat Freddy wrote:
“But yet we have huge, multi-national, monopolistic mega corporations. Where did they come from? Not from us. Liberals and Conservatives have fucked up this country, not Libertarians. You betcha! So, keep arguing your false dichotomy, and soon, we’ll all really be fucked.”
____________________________________________________

Fat Freddy,

Liberals, Conservatives, Democrats, Republicans, Tea Baggers and yes, Libertarians are different names for the same Corporatist party.
Deffinitely, the Libertarians are corporatists who want Corporate America to run amock unfettered by any laws and regulations, exploiting their workers and polluting the environment and dumping shoddy products on the defenseless consumers.
Who will protect the average folks if the government has hands off policy and leave the field for the powerful rich corporations to do what they want.

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By tom, June 17, 2010 at 2:40 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

All posters here, should take a look at theoildrum.com.

Tells you about the 450 ton “containment vessel” that Tony has ordered placed above the oil volcano, which is now tipping dangerously in the loose seabed around the wellhead, and the seepage all around it. Too much force for it to work, anyway. It would have to be secured about 500-1000 feet under the seabed, where there is stable soil and rock. Won’t happen, my geologist daughter says. “Dad, the Gulf is done,” the sweetie says. She has experience about the sea floor around the Macondo drill site, and the Mississippi Canyon, where it is. Unstable for 500-1000 feet. Eons of silt from the river, has not created a stable seabed, where oil and gas companies put in wellheads, etc.

Nothing will work, and you can blow it up as Simmons says, but that will just accelerate the disaster. Let it flow, and let Gulf residents go elsewhere, while they still have some money in their pockets, and hope for alternative careers. New Orleans may be in jeopardy, both economically and healthwise (remember benzene is a byproduct of loose oil).

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By tom, June 17, 2010 at 2:30 pm Link to this comment
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Tony knows he is a marked man. BP will be bankrupt in a few years, as will the Gulf of Mexico.

The dude has blood on his hands. His steady rise through BP has always been cost-cutting, at the expense of safety. On his watch, BP has committed 97% of the safety violations that various agencies, including the FBI, and local law enforcement in Alaska, have cited the company for, compared to other oil & gas companies.

He started as a 22-year old geology PHD on the deck of an off-shore rig. In 1989, he was an exec in charge of the “containment” and “cleanup” for BP (not Exxon, by the way, they had contracted it out to BP). 20 years later, our Business Supreme Court cut the punitive damage award from 500$ billion to 500$ million. Most recipients of that measly sum, are dead, bankrupt, living with relatives, or in a home.

Because of bonuses, etc., he took in $36 million in compensation of various forms, last year from BP. Rewarded for his criminal behavior. Even now, there is a bonus arrangement at the North Slope, implemented by Tony, to reward supervisors, etc. if they DON’T dip into their maintenance budgets to maintain the pipes, pumps, etc. at the Prudhoe Bay facilities, controlled by BP and its subcontractors. All Tony’s policies, approved by BP’s Board of Directors, whoever they may be.

Look it up, if you don’t believe me. The ‘Net is a wonderful thing. Just have to dig.

Why was all the cost-cutting and undermining of safety standards going on at the Deepwater Horizon site? Tony’s policies. BP is self-insured, and worth a trillion $$$, if you count all the oil and gas reserves they have under lease. They have done what they want, under Tony’s rule, until now. He should be in jail (again).

Bring them down, and hang him up, eh?
Tony’s rules, and bonus practices.

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By tom, June 17, 2010 at 2:10 pm Link to this comment
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If all facts were examined this week, like the trial was in its most important phase, 4 things would stand out:
1) Shortcuts for weeks before the actual blowout, have led to the weaknesses, and failures “down hole”;

2) “It” (the gusher) cannot be stopped. Recent calculations, and ROV views show oil seeping up all around the wellhead. 1000 feet down, under the seabed, the pipe is failing, failed and failed; cheap, nono-idustry standard activities, controlled by BP, done by Halliburton (the cement man), have caused this disaster to be far deeper in the seabed, than the wellhead, BOP, mud, “kill” activities, etc.;

3) Tony Hayward led the cost-cutting atmosphere, and policies of BP, which led to this disaster. He should be in jail. Just look at his record in Alaska—- not only that he was in charge of “containment” and “cleanup” in Prince William Sound, but of the other disasters (and pending on the North Slope; ask anyone who knows about BP politics; Tony rose up through the ranks, for cost-cutting, risk-taking and not having a conscience.

4) He knew all along what had happened, and why. MMS can’t be sued. He and BP took advantage of the lax supervision, regulations, etc., and created this disaster, eh?

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By BR549, June 17, 2010 at 1:55 pm Link to this comment

Re:  ThomasG, June 17 at 3:57 pm

Regarding your criticism of Fat Freddy over his not providing you with a
solution for the Federal Reserve problem, one needn’t be a mechanical
engineer to realize why it’s not wise to cross a busy highway at night wearing
dark clothing.

His statement was in the middle of just a list of points he was addressing and
not meant to be a structured thesis on any one topic. Lighten up! While he may
have been at least extolling the virtues of Libertarianism, I think any party is
corruptible, but I got his point.

I happened to like listening to Bob Barr a couple years back, but not enough to
vote for him. As long as we have a culture where people are so disconnected
from their core, their representatives will likewise be disconnected, enough to
abandon their constituency in favor of their own ideals. And therein lies the problem with all these forms of government; size.

Regarding the Federal Reserve, mankind seems to have survived for
thousands of years without it. The Federal Reserve represents is all that is evil
with usury and the first thing people have to grasp is that it’s a private bank
run by international elitists. So rather than trying to choke the living shit out of
Freddy, why don’t you propose to the rest of us exactly how you’d solve the
problem?

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By Ed Harges, June 17, 2010 at 1:31 pm Link to this comment

By Donald Nygaard, June 17 at 3:19 pm:

Donald, that’s interesting but kind of old news to those of us who’ve been
following this on the internet.

Theoildrum.com is even grimmer, asserting that it’s now clear that the inner
structure of the well is collapsed or collapsing, that there is or will be soon a
total breakdown of the pipes and the bore-hole column itself, far, far below the
well opening.

These guys say the well is almost certainly never going to be capped. They
say that if we did plug the top, it would just send oil spewing out of the ground
all around the well site.

The deeper breakdown of the well’s structure can never be fixed, and so
the blowout can never be stopped

They also say the rate of oil spewage will probably increase
“exponentially”, and that there’s nothing we can do about that, either:

“We need to prepare for the possibility of this blow out sending more oil into
the gulf per week then what we already have now, because that is what a
collapse of the system will cause. All the collection efforts that have captured
oil will be erased in short order. The magnitude of this disaster will increase
exponentially by the time we can do anything to halt it and our odds of actually
even being able to halt it will go down.

The magnitude and impact of this disaster will eclipse anything we have known
in our life times if the worst or even near worst happens…”

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6593/648967

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By archivesDave, June 17, 2010 at 12:37 pm Link to this comment

Fat Freddy:
SOON.. We’ll all be f^cked??...Soon????
“Take a look around ya boy,
It’s bound ta scare ya boy…”
Better dust the cobwebs off that big black book
cause yousa gonna be needin it soon.
That there floor level ‘leak’ has turned into several gushers that may not be fixed and we may be looking at an ‘implosion’ to boot if enough oil eventually comes out. Check out Lindsey William’s comments.

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By ThomasG, June 17, 2010 at 11:57 am Link to this comment

Fat Freddy, June 16 at 1:13 pm,

Who is to blame with a Counterfeiting Scheme, the machine that prints the money or those who operate the machine and spend the money?

The Federal Reserve is the machine that prints the money, but those who operate the machine, the Federal Reserve, who spend the money are responsible for how the machine is used.

The visual in your post decries the machine, advocates tearing down the machine, the Federal Reserve, and does not propose a solution, as regards a machine to replace the Federal Reserve, and a solution that will hold those who operate the machine and spend the money accountable.

It is easy to use propaganda, binary emotional rhetoric, to accuse, condemn, denounce, and demonize, as your visual does.  Aside from propaganda decrying the machine that is called “The Federal Reserve”, what is your solution with regard to creation of a new machine, the operation of that machine, and how the product of that machine is used???????

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By Hulk2008, June 17, 2010 at 11:51 am Link to this comment

Right on again, Robert Scheer !!!

I get SO sick of war analogies that I could puke.  War on Poverty.  War on Drugs.  War on the Oil Spill.  Let’s have a War on War Analogies followed swiftly with a War on War Itself. 

Paraphrasing Abraham Maslow, “if the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to treat everything as a nail.”  Surely an intelligent society can come up with OTHER solutions and analogies.  And to paraphrase Palin (yuck) “How’s the Preachy-War thing working out for ya?”

    More striking are recent suggestions to nuke the oil spill so that the ocean floor would be sealed off by nuclear glass.  (Yup - trade a thousand years of pollution for ten-thousands of years of nuclear waste.)
    One of Ed Harges’ posts suggests that the oil spill is far worse than anyone can guess.  I truly think that is just the tip of the iceberg (the melting ones, of course).  Mankind may have accomplished with one oil spill all the planet-killer theories of science rolled into one.  The spill could kill off all the plankton and larger sealife for the rest of natural time.  Who needs to argue about cap and trade or carbon dioxide when the oceans are all dead and there is no more sea life to generate oxygen?  Maybe some corporation will provide canned oxygen (ala Spaceballs). 
  The large corporations of the world continue to resist regulation and perform the most vile pollution practices - they won’t stop until we are all dead.  Funny how their stock prices will drop when there are no more living consumers.

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By Night-Gaunt, June 17, 2010 at 11:43 am Link to this comment

Yes, reports of oil leakage from the surrounding ground near the bore hole is ominous. If the strata is indeed fractured we could see a continuous flow that can’t be stopped. It would last as long as there is pressure in the well to force the oil up through the cracks. We could be seeing the early stages if the death of the Gulf of Mexico right now. Now if we just had equipment for not only skimming oil but scooping it up in those mile long plumes that flow under the surface. They have found at least three so far. This mess can be a problem for decades. That should be anticipated.

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By Ed Harges, June 17, 2010 at 11:30 am Link to this comment

From theoildrum.com: it’s much, much worse than you think:

“Over the next 2 months the mechanical situation also cannot improve, it can
only get worse, getting better is an impossibility. While they may make some
gains on collecting the leaked oil, the structural situation cannot heal itself. It
will continue to erode and flow out more oil and eventually the inevitable
collapse which cannot be stopped will happen. It is only a simple matter of who
can “get there first”...us or the well.

We can only hope the race against that eventuality is one we can win, but my
assessment I am sad to say is that we will not.

The system will collapse or fail substantially before we reach the finish line
ahead of the well and the worst is yet to come.

Sorry to bring you that news, I know it is grim, but that is the way I see it….I
sincerely hope I am wrong.

We need to prepare for the possibility of this blow out sending more oil into
the gulf per week then what we already have now, because that is what a
collapse of the system will cause. All the collection efforts that have captured
oil will be erased in short order. The magnitude of this disaster will increase
exponentially by the time we can do anything to halt it and our odds of actually
even being able to halt it will go down.

The magnitude and impact of this disaster will eclipse anything we have known
in our life times if the worst or even near worst happens…”

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6593/648967

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By Donald Nygaard, June 17, 2010 at 11:19 am Link to this comment

Perhaps the following link provides corroborating evidence of chicanery on behalf of British Petroleum and their apologists (note the date). As I recall at the time, there was a huge disinformation and ‘discredit the message’ campaign waged over these independent science-based estimates of the actual spill volume. Funny, these scientist types may know something after all, given the most recent reports of spill volume.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126809525

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By ejreed, June 17, 2010 at 10:39 am Link to this comment

It’s not difficult to compare the Union Carbide Explosion in Bhopal,  India back in 1984 to the Current Oil leak in the Gulf.  Of course the Bhopal disaster eventually resulted in approximately 25,000 deaths. After 26 years 11 men involved in that explosion were convicted of criminal negligence and sentenced to 2 years in prison and a pittance of a fine. Several of those men have already died and with the appeals process continuing all the rest may be gone before the judicial process comes to an end. The Families of the victims are not happy with the decision.  Here’s the story as reported in the Guardian in the UK. Does this piece of information sound familiar? 
The Bhopal disaster has deep resonance in a country where the interests of poor or marginalized communities are regularly sacrificed in the name of development, and where enforcement of safety regulations is haphazard at best. Many Indians are deeply suspicious of foreign companies looking to invest.
A separate action is still pending against Union Carbide and its then chairman, Warren Anderson. Anderson, who lives in the US, has refused to return to India to face charges against him.
It makes me wonder (not too hopefully) how soon the Chairman of BP Tony Hayward might be leaving the country for friendlier shores. For the complete story you might want to try this website called Women Etcetera
http://www.womenetcetera.com/ViewBlog.asp?memberID=3828&ID=5530

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By Ed Harges, June 17, 2010 at 10:37 am Link to this comment

Check out this scary info site, which I found through Counterpunch.

The writer, who claims a depth of knowledge on the subject, says that a close
examination of the evidence leads to a very frightening conclusion: that we
have here a “nightmare scenario”, on a scale far beyond even the disaster that’s
been so far reported.

According to this source, you can forget about ever capping this leak by
any means. It’s unfixable.

Why?

Because the leak isn’t just at the top. It’s “down well”. The entire structure of
the well’s bore column, its deepest pipes, the entire hole is shattered within, far
“down well” - like at least 1,000 feet below the surface. That means that if the
cap were ever successfully sealed, countless leaks would spring up all around it
through the fractured ground. It’s like a leaky garden hose - if you stop it at
the end, you only force more water out of the countless holes elsewhere.

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6593/648967

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By ThomasG, June 17, 2010 at 9:32 am Link to this comment

Fat Freddy, June 17 at 8:49 am,

A Libertarian is far to the Right of the Conservative Right-Wing EXTREMIST Republicans along with the Dominionist Christian Fascists.

Are you really a Libertarian?  I have a book by Rodney Petersen, a self described Libertarian, “The Philosophy of a Peasant” that advocates population control by life termination and describes the philosophy of Libertarianism.  Libertarianism as described by Rodney Petersen does not seem like much of a solution to me that would have “constructive without destructive purpose” for society as a whole.

Because I am a part of the American Peasant Populace, I was and still am offended that Rodney Petersen called his book “The Philosophy of a Peasant” when in fact it is “The Philosophy of a Libertarian Corporatist”.

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By noscetepsum_, June 17, 2010 at 9:27 am Link to this comment

FYI READ THE MYSTERIOUS VANISHING LETTER HERE:
http://www.scientificblogging.com/chatter_box/bp_gis_and_mysterious_vanishing_open_letter

Visit http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6593#comment-648967 for details concerning it’s disappearance and other information regarding the oil disaster.

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By bookmark dofollow, June 17, 2010 at 9:26 am Link to this comment

I think, the oil was minding its own business until some multinational corporations, enabled by a dysfunctional government regulatory regime, decided to wage war on the ecological balance of the oceans by employing technology that they were not prepared to control. Cleaning up the oil spill mess we made by raping the environment to satiate our consumer gluttony is not a glorious battle against evil but rather obligatory penance for the profound error of our ways.

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By BR549, June 17, 2010 at 9:07 am Link to this comment

Re: Night-Gaunt, June 17 at 12:33 pm
“It would be better for him if he were in custody now.” For a moment I had
fantasized about having Obama in custody. We can only HOPE.

I do agree with Fat Freddy that Bush/Cheney were able to get things done, ....
but that’s only because the majority of the voting public were only just learning
of the political atrocities that that administration was perpetrating on us.
Bush/Cheney managed to get as far as they did because they were organized
(to a point) and set the stage to stifle their opposition.

I could give the Bush/Cheney administration credit for implementing their plan,
however sociopathic it was, but it might be right alongside of those of Hitler,
Lenin, Mao and the rest of the sick twisted fucks that manage to sleaze their
way into controlling populations of innocent well-meaning people.

We’ve all seen these people. In the schoolyard, there would always be some
blowhard who did all the talking, but was otherwise inept. He’d always want to
be in charge, but couldn’t manage a one-person lemonade stand. Bush’s
Phillips Academy sports history is a classic example; he couldn’t interface with
his teammates, so they allowed him to stay in the limelight by being a
“cheerleader”, while the rest of the all male secondary schools in the New
England area, during that time, didn’t have cheerleaders. What does that tell
you? It says that little George didn’t know how to play well and he always had to
be the center of attention. How fucking pathetic is that? I went to one of
Phillips’ competitor schools; none of them had “cheer leaders”. If you weren’t
playing sports, you were either too sickly or you carried the ball bags and
clipboards. Participation was mandatory.

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By Night-Gaunt, June 17, 2010 at 8:33 am Link to this comment

Yes Fat Freddie, Obama was the Liberal “hope” but it was a scam. I saw it, it was easy, I wasn’t fooled by his rhetoric. The two only officially sanctioned parties are run by the same crypto-fascists who have been spending decades tearing down the Republic from the inside out. (After failing in 1934, they have been circumspect, methodical and careful in what they do. Death of a thousand cuts will still bleed you dry.) Considering that Obama is a Conservative at best and a crypto-fascist as worse is immaterial considering he is building on what was laid down before and making it harsher. [He went beyond Bush/Cheney sending out death squads world wide to hunt down anyone, including Americans who appear to be against them like Julian Asonge of Wikileaks and they have the license to torture & kill. It would be better for him if he were in custody now.]

“At least Bush/Cheney got things done.”* Yes Fat Freddie and that ominous list you give is an example of what was done by them. So what is your point? Obama has been quite busy whether by sitting back and doing nothing or behind the scenes he is doing something and it isn’t good for us.

*Dictators are very efficient in getting things done and they are rarely to help the people if it interferes in their lives. Only someone trustworthy like Dennis Kucinich would I want being fast and effecive in office. He is in the minority and marginalized as much as Ron Paul & Doug Feingold.

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By mrfreeze, June 17, 2010 at 6:34 am Link to this comment

Fat Freddy - I have business partner who always says:

“The longer the story, the dumber the deal.” Well, let me quote YOU:

“At least Bush/Cheyney got things done. I don’t agree with what they did, but at least they weren’t fucking cowards. I will never vote for a Democrat or a Republican again.”

Why didn’t you just write that incredibly revealing (and utterly ridiculous) statement about 100+ comments ago? You would have revealed your infantile, condescending and utterly sophomoric view of the world (and government) early on and a lot of other people could have had an adult conversation without you.

One other thing: You mentioned somewhere down the thread that your family immigrated to the U.S. back around the turn of the 19th Century and they apparently lived “the American Dream” until the 70’s (when some demon “government” destroyed their way of life). Well, let me remind you (I’m guessing your family like mine is Italian), the largest number of Ellis Island immigrants to RETURN to Europe were Italians (over 50% went back). Lots of other immigrants at that time went back to all those “commie/socialist” countries because they saw, that life here in the States wasn’t all that good. My family in Italy has a standard of living materially as good as the average American AND they don’t eat filth and have to listen to libertarian baloney day-in-and-day-out.

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By Ed Harges, June 17, 2010 at 6:08 am Link to this comment

Re:By Fat Freddy, June 17 at 7:10 am:

Freddy complains that the government did a “piss-poor job” of regulating the
oil industry, and so that’s why the government shouldn’t regulate the oil
industry!

This is ever the economic conservatives’ game: do everything you can to
weaken government oversight of banking or oil or whatever, and then after you
succeed in weakening that oversight, and some disaster happens, point to the
disaster as proof that government oversight doesn’t work.

What doesn’t work is their stupid ideology.

And besides, it’s a lie that libertarians and other “free market” ideologues are
“anti-government”.

They are in fact totally dependent on the existence of a powerful government
that intrudes deeply into our lives to enforce the abstraction of “private
property”, which is constantly being expanded to benefit already ultra-rich
people and corporations, who are even expanding their “property rights” to our
very DNA, to our common air and water, to the seeds of the seeds of the seeds
of everything a farmer plants and may blow in the wind into any field anywhere,
ever.

The libertarians would have us all completely imprisoned in a world of “private
property” where we have to ask some company for permission to breathe or to
walk, where there is no freedom of speech because we’re always in some
privately owned space, where the restaurant owner or the shopping mall
management can throw us out because we’re black or blond or Jewish or
wearing a t-shirt with a slogan the proprietor doesn’t like.

And all of this, in a complex, technically advanced modern society, is
necessarily defined into law and enforced by the legislature, courts, and police
of a very, very powerful, intrusive state.

“Limited government” libertarians are no different from everyone else in their
desire for limited government. We all want government to do some things,
and not do other things, so we’re all in favor of limited government.

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By ofersince72, June 17, 2010 at 5:49 am Link to this comment

Fat Freddy, I will catch up on your comments later,
there are many things we agree on…the ex coming to
take me to store…..I still refuse to burn gasoline
still haven’t cut grass.

But , it doesn’t matter, we are well beyond political
repair.  There isn’t going to be a fix outside of some
form of social revolution , everyone united.
There is absolutly no voting a political fix for America.
The overlords know this, so do the heads of both parties.
So most of our dialogue is really moot. We are stuck in
a fascist state, no voting our way out. We will have to
muddle through it the best we are able..good luck, peace

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By Fat Freddy, June 17, 2010 at 5:21 am Link to this comment

ofersince72

Gotta go to work, catch up later.

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By ofersince72, June 17, 2010 at 5:20 am Link to this comment

Libertarians don’t answer the wages either.

No SS, am I going to make enough money to live, send
kids to college and save for retirement? Is everyone?
and pay bills, go to doctors, get my kids teeth fixed
here and there.. all those things,

We have seen that employers do not provide those living
wages on their own.

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By Fat Freddy, June 17, 2010 at 5:19 am Link to this comment

ofersince72

Ron Paul ran for president as a Libertarian, I forget which year, but yes, he did return to the Republican Party. Republicans fuck with Paul more than Democrats. Actually, Paul has found an ally in Democrat Alan Grayson. But Paul’s getting old. It’s difficult to find a true Libertarian candidate. Libertarians have been relentlessly attacked by the Republicans and Democrats. Americans are locked into their false dichotomy mindset, and Keynesian economics. There are some good Libertarian thinkers and Austrian economists, but no real Libertarian politicians. Like I said, the Tea Baggers have hijacked the Libertarian Party. I won’t vote for them, either.

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By ofersince72, June 17, 2010 at 5:15 am Link to this comment

My only differnce with Nader is the stock market, there
I kind of agree with Libs…screw regulations.

If someone wants to play that roulette wheel, play it
at your own risks, just keep my damn retirement out of
it , your hear me employers!!!!!!!!!

and if someone wants to do a 401k , believing that is
their retirement, then lose it, tough luck, should have
put it in your pillow, or bought gold, or diamonds,
but you wanted to play casino, thats how casinos work
you might win or you might just lose.
and it shouldn’t be my problem to pay it back if you do!!!

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By Fat Freddy, June 17, 2010 at 5:10 am Link to this comment

archivesDave

What’s your solution? Like I said earlier, Libertarians have had no real political power since the early 1950s, and even that was marginal, thanks to Harry Truman and Thomas Dewey. But yet we have huge, multi-national, monopolistic mega corporations. Where did they come from? Not from us. Liberals and Conservatives have fucked up this country, not Libertarians. You betcha! So, keep arguing your false dichotomy, and soon, we’ll all really be fucked.

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By ofersince72, June 17, 2010 at 5:00 am Link to this comment

then there is the leadership. Ron Paul is leading the
charge. However he is not a Libertarian, he is a
Republican….that is his party..If you are attached to
it , that is what you are no matter what you profess.
Kind of like Kuckinach, you are a Democrat, don’t ever
come after my vote again.  I feel the same about Paul,
you are a Republican, a most, most repulsive party that
tied our government up for two years over a blow job.

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By archivesDave, June 17, 2010 at 4:56 am Link to this comment

Fat Freddie:
Libertarians want to have it both ways and they are all over the map just as Dems, Republicrats, Conservatives and Progressives.
I’d sum them up with laissez faire: Private corporations are moral enough to monitor themselves?
Ya sure u betcha!...“har har hardy har”

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By ofersince72, June 17, 2010 at 4:54 am Link to this comment

Fat Freddy, they are also the very same things
Ralph Nader supports and I am much more inclined to
to that way because he doesn’t look to tear down our
whole government to get there.

Basically they have taken his platform, only differernce
Ralph sees the need for good regulation of some
business so do I. Ralph also has answers for job creation.

Listen , I have read and contributed to Libertarian
causes that I believe in, but they don’t need to be
running the show, they have installed some pretty slick
talkers and are taking advantage of the populist
movement. For instance, they have no answers on how they
are going to employ the thousands, maybe millions now
employed in some form or other by the MIC. Every district
in the country is depentent on MIC contracts, not to mention all the military overseas coming home.
They have no answer for health care, if it is private,
how are they going to insure that wages are high enough
for people to go to a doctor, have tests done maybe some
hospitalization, they can’t answer those questions and
many more.

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By Fat Freddy, June 17, 2010 at 4:49 am Link to this comment

The Typical Libertarian is hated by conservatives  because he wants the freedom to snort coke off a teenaged hookers ass while smoking pot and watching a movie full of boobies and cuss words in preparation for sodomizing his illegal immigrant housekeeper, Carlos. The Typical Libertarian also wants criminals, terrorists and Mexicans to roam freely about causing all manner of social chaos, and has no interest in forcing people to love Jesus Christ. The Typical Libertarian is a traitor to the GOP and America because he failed to support the war in Iraq, the PATRIOT Act, the Stimulus, and both Bush and McCain, despite the fact that both men once said something at a cocktail party about maybe possibly lowering taxes on some people some day.

The Typical Libertarian is hated by liberals because he is a crypto-archconservative who wants poor people to go without education, medical care, police protection, food, shelter, and oxygen. The Typical Libertarian spends his weekends running down endangered species in his monstrous, gas-guzzling SUV before stopping off to smoke a pack of cigarettes in a daycare. The Typical Libertarian wants the world to be run by unaccountable multinational conglomerates instead of unaccountable governments. The Typical Libertarian is a racist, sexist, profit-driven nihilist who failed to mark the ascendance of the Chosen One, and has never protested for Union rights nor worn a T-shirt with the word Darfur on it.

Despite clinging to a hopelessly unworkable, idealistic and marginal political philosophy, the Typical Libertarian has recently been discovered as the cause for the downfall of Western Civilization.

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By Fat Freddy, June 17, 2010 at 4:27 am Link to this comment

Almost forgot,

Libertarians DO NOT support Sarah Palin, or Michelle Bachman, and have serious questions about Rand Paul.

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By Fat Freddy, June 17, 2010 at 4:24 am Link to this comment

Let’s get something clear. I am not a tea bagger. Libertarianism has been around a long time. Tea Baggers are nothing but neo-cons masquerading in Libertarian clothes.

Some differences between Libertarians and Tea Baggers:

Libertarians support a policy of open borders.

Libertarians support a foreign policy of non-interventionism.

Libertarians support an immediate closure of Gitmo and repeal of the Patriot Act.

Libertarians support an immediate end to the two Gulf wars.

Libertarians support a return to sound money and a closure of the fraudulent banking institutions of the Federal Reserve and the FDIC, and a return to sound, honest banking principles.

Libertarians oppose ALL government subsidies to corporations.

Libertarianss oppose the War on Drugs, the War on Terror and all other “wars”, that are wars on the American people.

Libertarians oppose bullshit (not all) regulations that place barriers on new businesses that wish to enter the market, and that place unfair burdens on smaller competitors.

Libertarians oppose the weakening of the 4th, 5th and 6th amendments.

Most Libertarians support the reproductive rights of women.

Libertarians do not oppose gay marriage. Some Libertarians oppose ALL state sanctioned marriage, gay and straight.

Libertarians do not necessarily support the Tea Party movement, even though it was Libertarians who started them in the late 90s. The REAL Tea parties were hijacked by neo-cons.

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By ofersince72, June 17, 2010 at 4:02 am Link to this comment

C. Curtis Dillon,,,,MFreeze,,,,

just who are you to wish this disaster down South??

Are you real proud of your vote???

You all have elected Pelosi, Reid, Obama, and on and on

Who in the hell are you to point fingers about a vote

and wish a disaster becase of it ?? as Freddy said,
a filibuster proof Senate, big, big majority in the House
and the President, we are no beter off, we keep your
finger pointing right back at yourselves a your rediculous
comments about this disaster to yourselves.!!!!

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By archivesDave, June 17, 2010 at 3:57 am Link to this comment

Don’t know how many of you noted comments made recently by Thom Hartmann and Mike Malloy on the fact there are SEVERAL fissures and sites where oil is gushing out possibly up to TWENTY MILES AWAY!
Malloy cited his research coming from a Russian by the name of Segalovich who apparently has much insider info.  (Research abiotic oil which if true, hints at the very real possibility of an unlimited pool down there..) GOOD NIGHT NURSE!
Also, 2 or 3 days ago, Ian Punnet on Coasttocoastam,
interviewed one Lindsey Williams who was a chaplain
during the construction of the Alaskan Pipe Line and
divulged confidential data given him by an ‘elitist’ he got to know there some twenty years ago. This elitist oil source also concurs that this oil is abiotic and possibly an unlimited source as well.  To make matters far worse, he also affirms there are SEVERAL other toxic chemicals being emitted into the water and air that are WORSE than the oil due to the fact that they are hundreds, if not thousands of times beyond the acceptable parts per billion.

The ‘cat is now out of the bag’ but as usual, we don’t hear any of this reported by mainstream media* including NPR, Fox, Limbaugh, Beck, and Medved.

* One of the G-20 platform issues is ‘control of the media’.  (Another is a new global currency.)

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Ouroborus's avatar

By Ouroborus, June 17, 2010 at 3:50 am Link to this comment

Sorry, haven’t been following the posts at all, BUT!

That picture at the beginning of the
article/thread/editorial could’ve come straight out of
Water World or Mad Max; hmmmmmmm…...

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By truedigger3, June 17, 2010 at 3:46 am Link to this comment

offersince72 wrote:
“So keep those stupid comments about where this disaster should take place to yourselves, you were duped as much as the tea baggers have been!!!!!!!!!”
_________________________________________________

offersince72,.

That is exacltly my thinking too.

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By ofersince72, June 17, 2010 at 3:46 am Link to this comment

You are exactly right Fat Freddy,

because the liberals didn’t know what change they really
wanted, Just “feel Good” change.

You have every right to pile on these “feel good”
liberals.

I just believe your answers arn’t with the Libertarians.

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By Fat Freddy, June 17, 2010 at 3:38 am Link to this comment

mrfreeze

I’m sorry. Are you upset because I didn’t come play with you? You say Libertarianism is crap? Well, liberalism is crap. You have the great liberal hope in the White House, a filibuster proof Senate, and a huge majority in the House. So, what has liberalism done? 

We still have two perpetual wars in the Middle East.

We still have prisoners in Gitmo who are being deprived of Habeas Corpus and due process.

We still have the Patriot Act. And to make matters even worse, we now target American citizens abroad for assassination, with no judicial oversight, or due process.

We still have federal raids on medical marijuana clinics.

We still have Too Big to Fail.

We still have a closed border policy.

We still have an economy in the crapper, and it is getting worse.

We still have no real energy policy.

We still have no real health care reform.

We still have a huge federal deficit, that is getting bigger by the day.

We still have no real tax reform for the Middle Class.

We still have no real financial reforms, and no audit of the Federal Reserve.

We still have weak regulatory agencies who only seem to care about what people eat and smoke.

We still have a never ending War on Drugs.

We still have no campaign finance reform.

We still have no term limits.

We still have botched paramilitary SWAT team raids on citizens where innocent children and bystanders, and family pets get shot and killed for no reason.

No, it’s not Libertarianism that is crap, we have no real political power. It is liberalism that is crap. You fuckers have the power, and you have done nothing. All you do is blame Bush, and cry about how mean those nasty Republicans are. I was tricked into voting for Obama. I can see that was a mistake. Liberals are WEAK. Yeah, you guys talk a good game, but when push comes to shove, you cower down into your little cubby holes and hope everything gets better. Well, there is no hope, and there is no change. So fuck you. At least Bush/Cheyney got things done. I don’t agree with what they did, but at least they weren’t fucking cowards. I will never vote for a Democrat or a Republican again.

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By ofersince72, June 17, 2010 at 3:30 am Link to this comment

To Fat Freddy responding to Harges

The government used to have some of the best professionals
in the field working for them, our government quite
capable of doing almost anything they care. However
starting around the Reagon years deregulation, and
slaming the government became the way.  Agencies like
the FDA, were handed over to CEOs from the pharma companies, or Monsanto had their hands on another agency
ect.  Then it got to be popular, with the very good help
of the AM airwaves to trash the government at anything
they did.  This became a norm, it carried into the Clinton
years as he also stacked agencies with CEO heads, and
government bashing became the way of government, the press
the airwaves ect.
  I remember the days that if an OHSA inspection was
coming, foreman, supertendents, and the CEOs of a mill
would be shaking for a whole month before hand, this was
back in the seventies.
  Our government used to be one if not the most efficient
beaurocracies in the history of governments. A good case
in point was the Social Security Administration, before
the Tip O’Neil and Reagon master plan to wreck it and rob
it.  Up until the mid eighties, it was never a part of
the Annual Federal Budget, but stood on its own, even with
some fraud and graft, ran surpluses every year, big ones.
Big enough that Democrats and Republicans on Capitol Hill
salvitated looking at the accumulated wealth of that
administration, a shining example of how well government
can work and a slap in the face to those that were trashing the government.  So both the Dems and Pubs had
their vote to incorporate S.S into the federal annual
budget so they could get to the surpluses, and they did,
went through that money in just a few years, then year
after year taking the supluses a spending it. Now , today
our debt collectors count on this money so it can’t be
taken back out of the budget like it was meant and used
to be. Yes, if Americans would examine the people they
elect to office a little more carefully, we can do just
about anything and have a great government.

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By truedigger3, June 17, 2010 at 3:21 am Link to this comment

By Fat Freddy, June 16 at 11:39 pm #

Fat Freddy wrote:
Banks are not unregulated. The next time you go into your bank ask the manager what it’s like to have to comply with Sarbanes-Oxley.
____________________________________________________

Fat Freddy,

Of course there is some nominal regulations to keep appearances but they are full of loopholes.
As I said the main reason for the debacle, were the following:
1) The repeal of the Glass-Steagall act.
2) The completely unregulated hedge Funds.
3) All these financial innovations and tricks, 
for example the CDS ( Credit default swaps) which allowed anybody to insure any transaction. It is like you are allowed to insure your neighbour’s house against fire for a million dollar???!!
4)Completely unregulated short selling of financial papers and stocks.

Fat Freddy also wrote:
“By far, the leading cause of the crisis was the unprecedented expansion of credit and “money” by the Federal Reserve Bank”
____________________________________________________

Fat Freddy;

Here, you are right, but you forgot to mention that the Federal Reserve Bank is not owned by the federal government, but it is PRIVATELY OWNED by the major banks in the country for example: citi bank, Morgan Stanley Chase….etc.
It is like the fox is guarding and taking care of the hen house.!!!!

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Fat Freddy's avatar

By Fat Freddy, June 17, 2010 at 3:10 am Link to this comment

Ed Harges

The question isn’t whether or not the government wants to regulate the oil industry, (or even if I want them to regulate it)the questions is, is the government capable of regulating it? It’s obvious they did a piss poor job regulating the oil industry, it’s also obvious they did a piss poor job regulating the financial industry. The government has no real financial stake in regulating the oil industry. AND a federal employee can not be held criminally liable for negligence. Gee, they can get fired.

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By ofersince72, June 17, 2010 at 2:52 am Link to this comment

So Fat Freddy, I well understand your disenchantment
with liberals, however, the libertarian movement is
filled with slick talking business men that want your
vote but don’t really give a rats ass about you.

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By ofersince72, June 17, 2010 at 2:46 am Link to this comment

From what I have seen on Truth Dig, you all are going
to get duped again , and again and are little more
sophisticated than the tea bag counterparts that Hedges
and the rest lead you against. The finger pointing at
Isreal (well deserved), but leaving the U.S. completely
out of criticizm on this debate goes a long way to
making my point.

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