Racial profiling will only lead to more racial tensions and waste of police resources on simple checks because the officer thinks a person who can’t speak english well deserves to be checked for being an illegal immigrant. It is a blow to human rights and civil rights and this should not be happening.

See my point also, Bill.  It is easier to see people as being serious in finding solutions to the problem if they are at least willing to see the problem with the eyes of others. 

I have a lot of family in AZ.  They never expressed any racism or adversity to the Latino presence in the area.  Now all they talk about is that it is becoming like a war zone.  They see the present situation as a “crime” problem, not an immigration problem.  The illegal immigration has been with them for years, and was not locally a destablizing factor to any extent.

What has changed?  Drug gangs with outrageous, vicious mentalities and firepower. 

I don’t believe it is profitable to integrate the immigration issues with the crime issues.  They are not the same problem, and must be addressed separately. 

To combine them as one problem is an additional insult to the “legitimate” illegal immigrant (no pun intended) who is just looking for a decent job.  Two completely different issues, which must not be confused.

You flatter yourself, Dave.  I’m not uninformed:  we simply disagree about the propriety (and efficacy) of the proposed ‘solution’ for the problems that you describe.

My example was not intended to minimize the severity of some of the issues:  it was a direct refutation of your sweeping generalization that people had no right to object to ANY criminal legislation without offering an alternative.

Clearer now?

You are totally uninformed, Bill.  I am talking about murder and ransom kidnappings, not petty theft.  Count the numbers.  It is totally out of control.  The people of Arizona have the constitutional right to defend themselves.  They are going bankrupt just responding to the almost 1 ransom kidnapping per day.  Why is no one posting on this ridiculous number? 

At some point, they could declare martial law and curfews, and check ID at will.  They do have the right do defend themselves, and they will do it.

Sorry, DaveZ.  We could pass a law that anyone convicted of theft, however small, would have their hands cut off:  that might well reduce crime, but I’d criticize the hell out of it without feeling any need to offer up an alternative.

Some ‘solutions’ are worse then the problems they purport to solve, and should be rejected out of hand.

Everyone continues to skirt and conveniently ignore the crime factor.  This bill is really about crime, not immigration.  People have a right to defend themselves against murders and kidnappers. 

There is so much concern about rights, but what about responsibilities?  There is a responsibility to cooperate with law enforcement in the reduction of crime.  It is not responsible to criticize a bill enacted to reduce crime, unless you can put forth better solutions yourself. 

Solve the crime problem, and the immigration problem will solve itself.  America has always thrived on hard-working, law abiding immigrants.  But anyone who comes to this country for the purpose of committing crimes, is not welcome, in my opinion.

So quit talking about your rights until you are ready to live up to your responsibilities.

Unfortunately, LL’s public display of ignorance and incompetence is no longer anything unusual in today’s political climate.  But it still merits correction.

The Constitution makes very clear distinctions between ‘persons’ and ‘citizens’, and most of the ‘rights’ which it guarantees (save for, e.g., the right to vote and hold high office) apply to all PERSONS within U.S. jurisdiction, whether citizens or not.  Even our fascist-leaning Supreme Court recognized this recently for prisoners at Guantanamo:  it’s really not a debatable issue.

As for the relative merits of a ‘multi racial rabble’, it’s instructive to recall that that’s precisely what built the U.S. into the world’s premier power and (until recently, anyway) a beacon of liberty.  And it may well now be our best hope for avoiding decadence and decline:  new arrivals have often been the strongest proponents of ‘duty, honor, and country’, and we’re certainly not seeing anything like that kind of principled behavior coming from our political and business leaders these days.

The concept of ‘illegal’ immigration nearly didn’t exist when the country was founded:  virtually everyone was welcome, and we thrived on their contributions.  While more controls may be necessary now, new infusions of people remain less a problem than a solution.

It’s really amusing to see how consistently over the centuries each new wave of immigrants has soon thereafter turned around and scapegoated the next waves as interlopers.  Humans are a tribal species at heart, which is why we’re so easily manipulated.

Gambling, May 3 at 12:41 pm,

So, you reiterated what I said, what is your point?

bill, May 2 at 12:45 pm,

I agree with your post, stopping people on the street and checking their papers and checking for licenses to drive is not the same.  One is a Hitler type campaign to round people up, and the other is precautionary; the former is a violation of one’s constitutional rights.

Oppressing and tyrannizing these undocumented workers is a propaganda tactic being used by Republicans to make it appear they are clearing out the unwanted, but when business and industry want really cheap labor to maximize their profits, the unwanted undocumented workers will be OK, because no laws have been made or will be made and enforced that will levy extremely high taxes against corporations, businesses, industries and citizens using undocumented workers, in order for there to be NO PROFIT in exploiting the undocumented workers.  You can figure our state and federal governments are no longer practicing theatrics to fool the populace whenever high taxes and strict law enforcement effectively stops the use of undocumented workers for citizens, business and industry.  As long as government, business and industry, citizens and law enforcement are only building a fence, checking papers and harassing the undocumented, business will go on as usual and all this news coverage about controlling the border is just theatrics for election.

Point Taken.

Just to provide a quick answer to one of Tom’s questions:

Yes, there is a major difference between being stopped on the street and asked for identification and being stopped at a sobriety checkpoint and asked for your driver’s license.  The first, lacking probable cause, constitutes unreasonable search and seizure and thus violates a Constitutional right; the second (debatable though it may be) is part of what you agree to when you drive a car (because driving a car is not a right but a conditional privilege licensed by the state).

Before each action, politicians make a calculation:

Number of individuals motivated minus number of individuals offended; when
the number is positive, they do it; if it’s negative, they have surrogates handle it
(e.g. the Republican’s TeaBaggers).

The Repubs decided to take this action on their own; I believe they made a
mistake.

They’ll stir up their base, but alienate most.

This action’s going to result in a negative number for the Republican -, no
matter how Fox, Cato, Hoover, David Brooks and others try to spin it for them.

Over the last year, going out and losing voter support has been the Democrats
strong suit, but as the election nears, the Republicans seem to be veering off
into self-destruct mode.

Tom Peters, May 2 at 12:07 am,

You must not have read my post, or didn’t understand for some reason that all this checking is theater only.  These undocumented workers will continue to be exploited for cheap labor for high profit by business and industry because this is a capitalist nation that is only concerned about commerce and profit; or business and industry would be TAXED at a high enough rate that there would not be any profit in hiring undocumented labor and all the undocumented workers would have to go home or starve and police would only have to check on business and industry, which would make their job easier.

As I try to understand this debate, I keep asking myself questions, among
them:

Is an unlocked door, say at your home, automatic permission for someone to
enter without an invitation?

If you come back to your unlocked home, and find a stranger there, say in your
kitchen, obviously scared and hungry, of apparently no immediate threat to
you, taking some leftovers from the refrigerator, what should you do? Do you
ask them to leave (the moderates)? Call the police (the far right)? Or hire them
to clean your bathroom (the Democrats and Republicans)?

Are the above questions that much different than our nation (your house) and
our border (the unlocked door to your house) and what is happening with
people walking in without permission?

Why is it alright to overlook the fact that an individual crossed an international
border without permission? Why is it O.K., that these individuals bypassed the
most rudimentary safeguards, at our border, set up for our collective
protection? Protections like minimum public health screenings and background
checks prior to entering the country? You know, the very international laws and
sense of fairness that our armed forces, both immigrant and natural born are
fighting to insure.

If you find out that your next door neighbor of 20 years is a bank robber (stole
the money, but no human was hurt or killed, just money taken) and he was
never caught, and because his last 20 years have been exemplary both as a
neighbor and community leader, should you still insist that this “good
neighbor” be given a free pass?

Is there any reason now that these “Illegal Immigrants” are here, that they
should not be allowed to continue here, they just need to reconcile their
disrespect for U.S. and international laws (i.e. crossing a border without a
passport, bypassing our immigration regulations) with a reasonable
fine/punishment and get them properly participating in our system?

It is very “Fox News” like to invoke hate rather than corrective actions. Using
the commentary “show me your papers” takes us back to some iron curtain
dictatorship, yet in the normal routine of life, is asking for a Green Card any
more unreasonable than asking for a drivers license when you have been
observed driving a car into a sobriety check point? Is a sobriety check point any
more constitutional? After all, you have not yet been observed as having had
anything to drink, yet both the left and right wing seem to think that these
checks are reasonable.

As I try to reconcile myself with the above questions, someone reading my
questions will believe that I am inclined to be in support of the Arizona
legislation, that would be wrong! The matter is Federal in nature, Period. In
fact, I would just as soon see the borders open, you get a social security card,
valid id, public health inoculations, a quick background check, and a drivers
license at the border on crossing. Welcome to the U.S.A., now if you can find a
job, have at it. No more under the table pay, no more tax cheating, and no
more exciting police chases!

My problem is that I am disappointed that no one in this argument is acting
like the symbol of the lady on the side of the court house building. She is
blindfolded and weighing facts on a scale. You will not find any of our leaders
or many journalists weighing facts in this manner. Neither side is being fair, in
fact both the political right and left are cheating, they are peaking under the
blindfold and putting their thumbs on the scales, and not helping solve the
problem.

Actually this NAZI authoritarian cleaning up of the undocumented is only theater, because a capitalist government will NEVER eliminate the undocumented cheap labor, that’s what they want.

If the United States government was a socialist government, then an extremely high tax would be levied against the corporations and businesses that exploit these undocumented workers and it would not be feasible for them to hire the undocumented and the undocumented would go home, but since the United States is capitalist, capitalism relies on commerce and capitalism will NEVER go against commerce; therefore, the undocumented worker is here to stay.

It’s a farce, all this authoritarian NAZI stuff is oppressive, tyrannical theater for show at the expense of the undocumented workers to fool the United States populace.  There ought to be laws against it, but it’s capitalism.

The people who brought you the Inquisition, the drive-by-shooting, gangland culture, human trafficking, drug murder, home invasion and kidnapping for profit want you to have your very own RACECARD!!

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. He’s “—-not prejudiced, he just don’t like white people—-”.

Arizona is merely doing what the constitution states.
I have lived in California, the problems of gangs, drugs, sex trafficing are visible not just at the border but in the streets and schools in LA.
Agribusiness likes illegal immigrants and has fought reform, as has the construction industry that likes cheap roofers and laborers. It is time now to have smart cards given to temporary immigrants, who can stay earn a living wage if there is a job.
The rest have to respect our laws.

By diamond, April 30 at 4:41 am #

“As for this Arizonan outburst of Nazism sinking the Republicans for good - oh, Lord, if only.”

Diamond, you are part of the problem when you make such statements.  Associating Nazism with the Arizona border situation is inciting and misleading.

The Nazis rounded up all the Jews, legal or not.  And they did not deport them, they murdered them.

Is that not slightly different than what is going on in Arizona?  I am tired of everyone squealling nazism everytime someone decidees to enforce a law, which is already on the books.  Enforcing laws is not nazism.  Rounding up peacful, innocent citizens and putting them in gas chambers is nazism. 

You got that distinction yet?

Based on the reasoning of this article, when searching for a rapist in the neighborhood, police should look with equal suspicion at women as well as men lurking about.  Otherwise, it is sexism.  To say that lawbreakers should be sought randomly seems a bit disingenuous.

Arizona’s authoritative type of profiling is what Hitler did to criminalize the Jews, and others he didn’t want in his society.  When you have to show your papers it makes it easy to profile.

All it would take is steady strict enforcement of current law and the arrest and jailing of those who hire illegals.

It would take more than waving a magic wand to solve the illegal immigrant problem. The cost of catching, holding, processing, and deporting an illegal is over 40 thousand dollars. With over 20 million illegals, it would cost 8 trillion dollars to do the job.  Americans have no choice except to make them feel at home, because they are here to stay.

70% of Arizonans want the legislation. Those who have not experienced the invasion first hand should wake up and smell the tacos. I’m tired of contending with armed thugs and crime. In the last decade I’ve watched illegal driven crime skyrocket and street safety disappear.

  What part of human trafficking, gun crime,illegal document, drug trade, murder, gang war, Balkanization don’t you understand??

Accusing Republicans of bigotry is a sure-fire losing
attack. Most Republicans I know are actually pretty
nice people, who aren’t bigots, or at least don’t
think of themselves that way.

What Republicans cannot deny is the Arizona precedent establishes undeniably that the Republican Party is
VERY comfortable with a HUGE, powerful, and highly
intrusive federal government, and that their claims
to the contrary are simply calculated disinformation
to get Republican power to the threshold where it
can’t be defied, even by the party’s supporters.

The only element missing from the Arizona bill to
make the power-grab complete would have been a
provision to levy harsh criminal penalties on critics
(us)—who’d be abetting criminals, you see. Bush
tip-toed to that point in threatening anyone for
criticizing his self-assumed war powers.

So, the evidence of Arizona and the Bush
administration reveal the true intent of the
Republican Party regarding “less government”.

Tea Party peeps and true Republicans should be as
inflamed about this flimflam, as they are about the
Wall Street one. The Republican Party is lying to it
own so-called base, and is actively working to NOT
deliver what they claim they want.

God, Sirota, stop snoring and wake up! 9/11 did not remove their ‘rhetorical filters’ it did exactly what it was meant to do. It unleashed fascism on America by the likes of Dick Cheney who loves wars but never fights in them (that’s for suckers) and George W. Bush who is so stupid he gives imbeciles a good name and Donald Rumsfeld, a war criminal of this parish. And anyone like Carl who thinks laws like these are only aimed at brown people needs to also wake the hell up. The neo cons always wanted to introduce exactly these laws to be used on anyone they considered to be opposed to their insane, fascist policies and their 21st century colonial wars. That’s what 9/11 was FOR and for the fascists it has definitely been the gift that goes on giving.
As for this Arizonan outburst of Nazism sinking the Republicans for good - oh, Lord, if only.

Why does “truthdig” post articles that start with an obvious lie:
“requiring police officers to demand citizenship papers from anyone they believe is in the country illegally”
That is a lie. A decent “news” organization would print a correction.
The rest of the article is rambling BS. It seems truthdig’s corporate sponsors are demanding they “sweep it all up” as Dick Cheney liked to say, and publish all pro-illegal immigrant/anti-American worker article they can find in hopes of fooling most American workers to accept the absurd notion that allowing millions of illegal aliens to steal jobs from American workers and drive down wages is actually good for them.

Yes, we are all greedy and lazy, none of us want to work, and we don’t need money.