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One Guantanamo Trial That Will Be Held in New York

Posted on Apr 5, 2011

On the same day President Barack Obama formally launched his re-election campaign, his attorney general, Eric Holder, announced that key suspects in the 9/11 attacks would be tried not in federal court, but through controversial military commissions at Guantanamo. Holder blamed members of Congress, who he said “have intervened and imposed restrictions blocking the administration from bringing any Guantanamo detainees to trial in the United States.” Nevertheless, one Guantanamo case will be tried in New York. No, not the trial of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed or any of his alleged co-conspirators. This week, the New York state Supreme Court will hear the case against John Leso, a psychologist who is accused of participating in torture at the Gitmo prison camp that Obama pledged, and failed, to close.

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The case was brought by the New York Civil Liberties Union and the Center for Justice and Accountability (CJA) on behalf of Steven Reisner. Reisner, a New York psychologist and adviser to Physicians for Human Rights, is at the center of a growing group of psychologists campaigning against the participation of psychologists in the U.S. government’s interrogation programs, which they say amounts to torture. Unlike the American Medical Association and the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the largest association of psychologists in the world, has refused to implement a resolution passed by its membership barring APA members from participating in interrogations at sites where international law or the Geneva Conventions are being violated. Reisner, a child of Holocaust survivors, is running for president of the APA, in part to force it to comply with the resolution.

John Francis Leso is a U.S. Army major, formerly chief of the clinical psychology service at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, D.C. According to CJA, Dr. Leso “led the first Behavioral Science Consultation Team (BSCT) at ... Guantanamo from June 2002 to January 2003,” where he “co-authored an interrogation policy memorandum that incorporated illegal techniques adapted from methods used by the Chinese and North Korean governments against U.S. prisoners of war.”

Reisner filed a complaint with the New York state agency that governs licenses of psychologists, the New York Office of Professional Discipline (OPD), asking for an investigation and appropriate disciplinary action. He took this route, Reisner told me, because “health professionals are privy to private information, to weaknesses, to psychological and physical compromises, and they are privy to that information because they take an oath not to abuse that information to cause harm. So when health professionals use that very information ... to cause harm, we want to make sure that those people are held accountable and have their licenses revoked, if necessary.”

The OPD declined to investigate, so Reisner is seeking a court order to force the agency to do so.

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Maj. Leso recommended three categories of interrogation severity at Guantanamo, depending on the prisoners’ ability to resist. “Category III” included “daily use of 20 hour interrogations; the use of strict isolation without the right of visitation by treating medical professionals or the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC); the use of food restriction for 24 hours once a week; the use of scenarios designed to convince the detainee he might experience a painful or fatal outcome; non-injurious physical consequences; removal of clothing; and exposure to cold weather or water until such time as the detainee began to shiver.”

Leso is alleged to have participated in the interrogation of Mohammed al-Qahtani, a young man captured in Afghanistan and referred to as the “20th hijacker.” Al-Qahtani’s interrogation was so harsh that his charges were dropped. He is represented by the Center for Constitutional Rights, which said in response to Holder’s announcement: “The Obama administration all but admitted political failure today as it announced it would try the 9/11 defendants before the deeply flawed military commission system rather than in Article III civilian courts as originally planned.  ... In the same breath that the U.S. is calling for the rule of law in the Middle East, it is subverting it at home.”

The roll call of U.S. officials implicated in torture is long, yet not one of them has been held accountable: George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, John Yoo, Alberto Gonzales, psychologists Col. Larry James and John Leso, among others. As an Arab Spring is celebrated around the world, we should turn over a new leaf in the United States and celebrate an American Spring as well, one that rejects torture and is not afraid to use its judicial system, whether trying accused terrorists or torturers.
 
Denis Moynihan contributed research to this column.

Amy Goodman is the host of “Democracy Now!,” a daily international TV/radio news hour airing on more than 900 stations in North America. She is the author of “Breaking the Sound Barrier,” recently released in paperback and now a New York Times best-seller.

© 2011 Amy Goodman

Distributed by King Features Syndicate

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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, April 12, 2011 at 7:27 am Link to this comment

Manchild, - Months ago GRYM claimed “he was a blue collar self-employed member of the building trades.

-

LOL…I think you should locate that thread and show us that claim, Fairytale boy.

You’re the only individual on this entire thread which I have openly called a liar.  With an open conscience I can repeat the label today.

You truly are an idiot…LOL

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By ardee, April 12, 2011 at 6:53 am Link to this comment

One cannot be against torture and condone it, all in one breath, excepting of course if one is Grym, purveyor of fairy tales. Just as today he claims to be “an investigator of 25 years experience” while a few short months ago, in a thread about economics and the working class, he was a blue collar self-employed member of the building trades.

Stay tuned as tomorrow this crepuscular plague upon our nations morals and ethics claims to be Queen of the May.

As to the “value” of intelligence gained through use of torture, several members of the intelligence community have come forward and stated firmly that such methods provide poor intelligence and garner mostly nothing of value. People under such conditions merely tell the torturer whatever he or she wants to hear.

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By drbhelthi, April 12, 2011 at 5:26 am Link to this comment

“Do you believe the United States has tortured and murdered hundreds of people since 2001?” by “go right young man”

It is past time to be specific with ideation when using the words, “United States,” “tortured and murdered” and other related concepts. 

“United States”. In ones thought, does it represent all persons, legal and illegal residing in the U.S.?  Does it represent all legal citizens residing in the U.S.?  Does it represent only all active, voting residents of the U.S.?

As far as “tortured and murdered hundreds of people” is concerned, does the idea include all people around the earth, or only Moslem-types in the Mid-East, or only American insiders who publicized the truth about the activities of the CIA, NSA, FBI, MOSSAD, Blackwater-
Ex, Haliburton, and their operatives, the U.S. Military?

The word “hundreds” is plural, but could be delimited to only two hundred, or increased to nine hundred. If you are entertaining the idea of all persons who have died from the murderous activities of all the agencies mentioned above, since Sep 11, 2001, a denomination of more than “hundred” is appropriate.  The denomination of “million” would be a better fit. 

And in such a case, the American citizenry was involved only to the extent that Americans populated the agencies mentioned above. The general citizenry of the United States exercised little influence- if any- on the murderous activities. “We” were neither asked, nor have we been accurately informed.

Further, numerous persons who have attempted to accurately inform us have died from unpredictable heart attacks, have died in car accidents, their airplanes have crashed under questionable circumstances. Then there are those persons reported to have committed suicide, unpredictably. Of course, unpredictably - - .  Then there was one man, involved in official testimony, who “stabbed himself” 22 times with a letter opener, and died in his hotel room.

It is reported that the MOSSAD has a few beautiful, female agents. The CIA and FBI have many more. All of whom are trained in seduction, and “extermination” as the goal of the process. “Extermination”, which the legal system classifies as 1st degree murder. For such cases, take away ten points from the ladies. Excuse me, not the ladies, but rather, “the females.”

In such cases, the agents receive written promise from their “president” or his representative, another WWII NAZI-type, that they will be protected from prosecution.  Sad.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 11, 2011 at 9:54 am Link to this comment

garard,

Do you believe the United States has tortured and murdered hundreds of people since 2001?

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By gerard, April 10, 2011 at 11:53 pm Link to this comment

GRYM: In regard to your last post:  “garard,
I do still believe you posed some excellent questions (although you, typically, proffered no answers), and I wrote what I meant and meant what I wrote; under the color of law.

“If memory serves, I once clued you in on my profession.  I am a 25 year veteran investigator. - To act “under color of law” means to act beyond the bounds of lawful authority.”

My dear sir:  My questions answer themselves for anyone who has thought deeply about values.  My questions were posed to show the extreme danger of misinterpretation of ideas.  Too tight an interpretation—or too loose an interpretation—both lead to catastrophe.
  Words like “actual”  and “color of law” and “simulated” etc. etc. do not guarantee anything except the interpreters “right” to interpret those words any way he or she likes. Too often, matters of life and death depend upon loose or strict interpretations, as you well know.
  Torture is something that we cannot afford to interpret loosely.  There must and should be a law absolutely forbidding torture in any form, and torture should be strictly defined as “doing harm” to others, causing pain or psychological distress sufficient to force people to do or say
things which they otherwise might not be willing to do or say. To cause pain, fear or prolonged stress which “breaks people down” into victims incapable of self-control.
  The laws under Bush were loosened in what was thought to be an expediency and turned out to be a whole new “can of worms”—as you also know.  The dog that was supposed to bite “terrorists” turned around and bit the “terrorizers.”  Which is the very nature of the reverse of the Golden Rule :  DO NOT DO TO OTHERS WHAT YOU WOULD NOT WANT OTHERS TO DO TO YOU. It seems to me that that is sufficient guidance
for any humane person, and would prevent torture if obeyed to the letter.
  In addition, torture turns on its administrators in a very adverse way, as we can see from the amount of credence and reputation the U.S. has lost as a result of Guantanamo et al.  Once the U.S. was repected among countries, particularly western countries, as a defender of justice and humane behavior.  Now it is widely regarded as a betrayer of its own ideals and preachments, a pretender, a
false advocate, and one not to be trusted. 
  I loved the U.S. as it once was—or seemed to be.  I believed in its supremacy and leadership toward a better world.  The behavior of personnel in the Army who are trained to know better (and many of whom had Christian upbringing to boot!) has proven that ideals meant nothing in the face of fear, force, the desire for revenge, and the lure of conquest and domination.  We are a fallen nation and I wish our errors were correctible, but I doubt it so long as people who know better, deep down, keep on supporting cruelty and injustice in the name of a false patriotism.

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By Cliff Carson, April 10, 2011 at 11:52 pm Link to this comment

GRYM

I have faced your kind before and I’m sure I will again.  It is interesting and laughable how you argue a point - by not arguing the point.

My point was and is that those who dwell on Water Boarding don’t do the victims of Torture any justice.

And you tried to frame the question to the minutiae of Water Boarding.  I sure am glad that you aren’t half as clever as you suppose yourself to be.

Take this and remember it.  Those who torture are vile evil people, those who cover for the torturers are even worse.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 10, 2011 at 9:59 pm Link to this comment

garard,

I have more respect for you than you are willing to accept.  I believe your intentions are noble.  As noble, I hope, as my own.

I do still believe you posed some excellent questions (although you, typically, proffered no answers), and I wrote what I meant and meant what I wrote; under the color of law. wink

If memory serves, I once clued you in on my profession.  I am a 25 year veteran investigator. - To act “under color of law” means to act beyond the bounds of lawful authority.

-

Carson,

For the time being I must ignore you.  Perhaps we can try another time.

Your insistence on petty and petulant discourse is truly too torturous to be subjected to for any length of time (smile). 

Good luck to you.

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By Cliff Carson, April 10, 2011 at 9:32 pm Link to this comment

GRYM

Sorry to open your pores and get the sweat flowing.  Well maybe I jest.  I didn’t “actually” do any thing wrong and if I did I didn’t “actually” mean to do it so I guess that means I didn’t - do it.

But I understand you.  When I was young, a long time ago, I also lived in another Galaxy -  I was a Republican.  But that was before I began to read and observe.  I then thought Democrat was the way to go, but then I realized they were Siamese Twins - never anything good for the common man unless it was profitable for them.

As to you reading the links I provided, somehow I didn’t think you would be impressed, because I think you didn’t “actually” read them.

So the Japanese Water Boarding was different from the American Water Boarding, and I guess the people that our Government has tortured to death are not “Actually” dead because our Government wouldn’t commit torture?  Would they?

Maybe Bush and Cheney and their bunch could come up with new names for their depravity so it wouldn’t be torture “Actually”.

Let me suggest a good Republican name - “Enhanced Interrogation”.  Now that wouldn’t be torture since it is vastly different from what the “Enemy” does.

I hope we Americans don’t wake up some morning and find that we are the Government’s enemy.  We might have to face some Enhanced Interrogation, but at least it wouldn’t be torture.

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By gerard, April 10, 2011 at 8:51 pm Link to this comment

GRYM:  Your comments, other than being utterly defensive and imprecise, never cease to amaze me.  Now you’ve come up with another teaser:  “under the color of law.”  Without jumping to conclusions that you meant (under the cover of law” (which raises even more questions!) let’s just (jest) consider “the color of law” for a moment. 
  Any law colored red must be ........?  You guessed it!  And what about “black laws” and “white laws”  Any trouble with that one?  Then of course there were the infamous “blue laws” of yesteryore.
  But let’s move on to “under cover of law”—well, law pretty much covers itself even if it doesn’t cover anybody else?  It is always right—if you have enough money to hire a good lawyer—or pay off the judge?  Women are not covered by the same laws of men, which causes a good deal of trouble.  And in spite of laws trying to cover all races and nationalities equally, they seldom succeed, and that is how lawyers make their money—by trying to make any given law cover their argument and not the opponent’s.  It’s called “justice” and it often
“miscarries” which doesn’t mean it accidentally loses babies, but it more or less stupidly drops innocent people into death row cells—by mistake, of course, not on purpose.  But the effects are “actually” as bad or worse than intentional effects, sometimes if not always.
  Well, I could go on.  The law is pretty much of a mess—especially since the Bush presidency—and Obama hasn’t done much to improve it. As a result, along with their jobs, their houses and their retirement savings, many have lost their senses of humor, which is perhaps the greatest loss of all.
Guess the people whom the law is supposed to protect are going to have to go to court and sue for their rights—if that’s not asking too much.
  Don’t die laughing over that one!
  Yours for happy commenting,  The Sinister Minister

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By Go Right Young Man, April 10, 2011 at 8:22 pm Link to this comment

Carson,

BTW: The water-boarding employed by Japan during WWII resembled nothing like what the United States devised after Sept. 11.

Study the subject yourself and you’ll understand your error.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 10, 2011 at 8:16 pm Link to this comment

Carson,

I have read from the links you’ve provided.  Both of late and in the past.  To date you’ve not shared information I have not already studied.  At length. - I remain unmoved as of yet.

Are you under the impression that if you dare me, even double dare me, this will have some magical effect?  Do you believe that if another simply studies the material you believe in, that this will miraculously change opinions?

-

I believe the information garnered from the interrogation of Mr. Zabayda was more than significant.  I believe the information he was able to provide, after being interrogated, likely saved thousands of lives.  You disagree.  In fact, you appear to have dismissed my post on the subject out-of-hand, with little compunction.  How stupid and myopic is that? wink

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By Go Right Young Man, April 10, 2011 at 8:01 pm Link to this comment

garard.

Excellent questions. 

Some people believe that any criminal prison is, de facto, state sanctioned torture.  Others see the entire capitalist monetary system as torture.  Others still understand torture as the mere threat of capital punishment. - There are several legal definitions of torture; dependent on the nation of origin.

In the United States the definition commonly refers to an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control.

I pose the following question only half in jest.  Considering the above definition; would it be considered “torture” to forcibly mandate a person view 100 hours of Dancing With The Stars?

In my view the very definition of torture would be met in having to read all of MarthA’s comments on this Web space. - Absolutely frightening mental anguish. wink

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By Cliff Carson, April 10, 2011 at 7:53 pm Link to this comment

Well gerard you are absolutely right.  I wish GRYM had at least read some of the links I provided but I have learned from posting comments over the years that those who don’t want to know will make sure they never know.

GRYM reminds me of an old acquaintance of mine who used to talk politics with me.  During the Wilbur D Mills episode, specifically the AMPI milk scandals, Mills had a lady running against him.  She was a Republican and of course Wilbur was old guard Democrat.

Anyway, on election day I went and voted for Judy Petty instead.  Speaking with the acquaintance I asked did he vote for Ms. Petty.  No he said he didn’t.  Why I asked would you refuse to vote for a woman and vote for a proven known thief and crook?  Well, he said at least I know he is a crook.

Too many people vote Party ( He was a Democrat) and they will always excuse their corrupt Party leader for any crime to vote the Party Line.

Torture is torture.  And as I informed GRYM, the United States was instrumental in hanging Japanese POW’s who had water boarded Americans.

It’s not that GRYM can’t see the light, he just refuses to admit the obvious, and he will go to lengths, including deluding himself, so that he can support the Party Line.

Party Loyalty is killing America

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By gerard, April 10, 2011 at 7:14 pm Link to this comment

One final question:  What does “not actual torture” mean?  Who decides what it means?  What are their qualifications?  What is the unquestionable eidence?  Is “actual torture” really better than “not actual torture”?  Who says so?  On what grounds? 
  Is it possible that what is “not actually torture” to one person might be “actually torture” to another? If so, why and to whom? Is there a clear distinction between “not actually torturing” and “actually torturing” that can be relied on as a universal standard?  If not, why not?  What are the extenuating circumstances, if any?  And so on and on.
  And after that come the questions of effects on others than those “not actually tortured” and/or “actually tortured.”  Does “almost torturing” people have side-effects on some “almost-torturers” but not on others?  If so, on whom, what effects, how serious are the effects, and why?
  And what about the families of those who are “not actually tortured” versus those who are “actually tortured?” 
  And the families of those who do the “not actually torturing”?
  You get the idea.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 10, 2011 at 5:28 pm Link to this comment

Mr. Carson,

I felt no sense of real anguish over your attempts to insult.  It’s simply unnecessary to making your views known. 

Unfortunately you display the same habit as many on this Web space.  From your writings it appears you hold the opinion that people who fail to see the world as you do are simply stupid.  That’s a mistake.

I could easily respond on how I see everything you have written as horribly misguided and lead easily by the nose by the mainstream media.  But, then, what would that accomplish?  We are already clear on how and where we disagree.

-

We see the world from different starting points.  We choose our sources and take what we will, then dismiss what doesn’t fit.  It’s not stupid.  It’s human.

I believe I have several solid reasons to think that water-boarding is not actually “torture”.  I also believe I have reasoned, confirmed, demonstrable evidence that suggests the technique can be an effective tool in extreme situations when the goal is to save lives.

Do I believe the United States is the world’s Knight In Shinning Armour?  Absolutely not.  Nor do I believe the United States is the cause of the world’s ills.  Do I believe you go too far in your accusations?  I surely do.

We can disagree on many things.  But we can disagree as adults can and will.

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By Cliff Carson, April 10, 2011 at 4:01 pm Link to this comment

GRYM

You are not going to defend your post?  Or try to negate the link I posted?

But you are right ( no pun intended ) I shouldn’t insult you.  That’s not nice.  Of course torture and the cover-up and “spin” of its good results are not nice either.

Please accept my apology for the harsh words I have used.  I will not stoop to that again.

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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, April 10, 2011 at 3:46 pm Link to this comment

Mr. Carson,

While it has been in a few newspapers, you may not fully realize that Bush and Cheney are no longer in office. 

Are you able to make your points of view known less the childish insults and petulant jousting?  It’s foolish and unnecessarily provocative.

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By Cliff Carson, April 10, 2011 at 1:42 pm Link to this comment

Oh My GRYM you have swallowed the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld worm, i. e. taken the bait.

I said earlier that you need to get out and learn more.  Please read this link in its entirety and you would do yourself a favor if you followed the links within this link.

Now you have taken the Abu Zubdaydah story and failed to read about this farcical story presented by the authors of torture and how it has been debunked totally and completely.  If you don’t read this link you will still have your head in the sand.

There was a documentary on TV exposing this farce by Bush and the boys and those testifying in the film included most of the people who questioned Zubdaydah before and after torture was applied to him.

Take a read about that supposed information obtained by torture and what the truth about it is.  GRYM you listen to Rush Limbaugh too much.

http://www.fff.org/comment/com0903m.asp

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By Go Right Young Man, April 10, 2011 at 9:55 am Link to this comment

Critics claim that enhanced interrogation techniques do not produce good intelligence because people will say anything to get the techniques to stop. But as Abu Zubaydah himself explained with respect to enhanced techniques, “Brothers who are captured and interrogated are permitted by Allah to provide information when they believe they have reached the limit of their ability to withhold it in the face of psychological and physical hardship.”

Consider the Justice Department memo of May 30, 2005. It notes that “the CIA believes ‘the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason why Al Qaeda has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.’ … In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including (Khalid Sheik Mohammed) and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques.” The memo continues: “Before the CIA used enhanced techniques … KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, ‘Soon you will find out.’ ” Once the techniques were applied, “interrogations have led to specific, actionable intelligence, as well as a general increase in the amount of intelligence regarding Al Qaeda and its affiliates.”

The memo notes that “interrogations of (Abu) Zubaydah — again, once enhanced techniques were employed — furnished detailed information regarding al Qaeda’s ‘organizational structure, key operatives, and modus operandi’ and identified KSM as the mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks.” This information helped the intelligence community plan the operation that captured KSM. It went on: “Zubaydah and KSM also supplied important information about al-Zarqawi and his network” in Iraq, which helped our operations against Al Qaeda in that country.

Just as the memo begins to describe previously undisclosed details of what enhanced interrogations achieved, the page is almost entirely blacked out. The Obama administration released pages of unredacted classified information on the techniques used to question captured terrorist leaders but pulled out its black marker when it came to the details of what those interrogations achieved.

Yet there is more information confirming the program’s effectiveness. The Office of Legal Counsel memo states “we discuss only a small fraction of the important intelligence CIA interrogators have obtained from KSM” and notes that “intelligence derived from CIA detainees has resulted in more than 6,000 intelligence reports and, in 2004, accounted for approximately half of the (Counterterrorism Center’s) reporting on al Qaeda.” The memos refer to other classified documents — including an “Effectiveness Memo” and an “IG Report,” which explain how “the use of enhanced techniques in the interrogations of KSM, Zubaydah and others … has yielded critical information.”

All of this has lead President Obama to retain the option to employ enhanced interrogation tools in cases of emergency.

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By drbhelthi, April 10, 2011 at 2:29 am Link to this comment

” - -  torture tactics is that it is impossible to prove that they
saved any lives at all,- - ” gerard

One former CIA agent, an expert in studies of “terrorism”, clearly
states that torturing prisoners produces what the torture-agents
want to hear, rather than the truth:
http://mindsimedia.wordpress.com/2011/02/13/former-fbi-agent-and-
counter-terrorism-expert-michael-german-speaks-out/

Former CIA station chief, Col. John Stockwell gives more explicit
detail of CIA activities:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3ioJGMCr-Y&feature=related

The idea that torturing prisoners saves lives is simplistic
disinformation initiated by the NAZI/GHWBushSr-entourage element of
the CIA. 

Congratulations to former and current CIA, FBI and NSA genuine
Americans, who tell it like it really is, and who do not suck up to
the anti-American, WWII NAZI propagandists !!!
LIVE LONG & PROSPER !

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By gerard, April 9, 2011 at 3:26 pm Link to this comment

The purpose of SERE-type training is surely not to teach soldiers to empathize with their victims! That would be quite a stretch, wouldn’t it?
  SERE used as a training method for future administrators of torture might also serve as a “bonding” method because surely if the victim trusts his faux-torturers enough to permit them to waterboard him, he must really trust them a lot because he’s literally putting his life in their hands.
  “Enemy combatant” victims scarcey have such a luxury of choice, do they? No, they are forced to put their lives in the hands of their captors. That’s why inculcating “learned helplessness” is so easy—and so despicable.
  Of course the purpose of the original SERE program differs from the purpose of restructuring SERE to use it to teach people how to waterboard “suspects” and/or “enemy combatants” (whatever that means).    Using waterboarding for training purposes probably serves as a “trial run” for all parties concerned, to show when to stop before someone actually dies and makes perpetrators guilty of actual murder.
  One big problem with recent waterboarding etc. torture tactics is that it is impossible to prove that they saved any lives at all, since there are too many complicated variables in war and espionage. The entire endeavor is by nature clouded with mixed motives, uncertainties, fear, anger, and the consequent and inevitable errors of judgment.
  On the other hand, there is some evidence that torture has made situations worse, for torturers as well as for the tortured. This is not even to mention the twisted psychology of “black” operations in general.
  The sooner we get rid of torture and “black” operations, the better for all concerned.  One factor that keeps them going is, of course, the very juvenile mind-set that actually enjoys “edgy” behavior and doing bad stuff to “see what happens.” Much of the world, including American citizens, is locked into this mind-set more or less deliberately because the “parents” operating the “systems” want to keep the kids “busy, amused and entertained.”
  Might seem misanthropic to say so in cold words, but it’s a factor to be considered and dealt with.

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By Cliff Carson, April 9, 2011 at 3:01 pm Link to this comment

Where to start GRYM

You claim you are against torture, yet you continually ignore the torture to death of detainees.  You ignore the torture I posted in my last comment, You did not read the link that I posted in my last comment that addressed 44 documented cases of torture to death of detainees.  Had you read the article you would find that not a single one of these detainees died from water boarding, and if you read enough you will find that there is no documented case of a detainee dying from water boarding.

Is it therefore torture?  Before you answer, why didn’t you read the link I provided referencing the study performed by Professor Mark Denbeaux concerning the detainees at Gitmo?  Had you read it you would have found that the report showed that 93% of the detainees there at that time were there for the simple reason that they were sold to the U S Forces by bounty hunters for the bounty.  You would also have found that for those there for bounty the U S had no evidence that they had ever been on the battlefields or done anything against the U S Soldiers.  Had you read the Denbeaux report you would have found that the U S admitted such. But in fact GRYM a great many of those detainees were tortured - some to death.

But there you are wailing against anyone who says Water Boarding is torture.  And you say you are against torture.  Yet you talk about “the method of water boarding only”.  Wonder if some of those who were tortured to death got water boarded first. I’ll bet they did.  And when the “torture” wasn’t bringing forth the answers or information wanted, more “hurtful” torture was initiated.

Did you know that after WWII prisoners who had administered Water Boarding to American Soldiers were executed?  The U S called it torture then.

But then people, who you seem to parrot, decided that the American style “Water Boarding” wasn’t really cruel, because well the U S Interrogators wouldn’t be cruel would they?  But would those interrogators kill detainees who didn’t give the information sought?  If not then why did they kill them?

Are those interrogators guilty of war crimes?  If so why haven’t they been so charged?  GRYM you are a sad case, everything you do and say screams that you approved of torture except your simple sentence that “You don’t approve of torture”.

Just think, if those interrogators who killed god only knows how many detainees during torturing sessions, could be absolved of guilt simply by saying “I don’t believe in torture”, you know just like you say it, would they really be innocent of torture? 

How many of those people who died during torture were absolutely guilty of nothing except being Non-Americans?

If you are against torture, start writing about those killed while being tortured-like I do.  Stop trying to divert attention away from those facts by claiming only those who know the minutiae of Water Boarding” know anything about torture and if they don’t know the minutiae, then torture doesn’t occur.  That is the impression you leave.

GRYM you need to change your act, redeem yourself, ask forgiveness, and start thinking and being moral. Join those Americans who really are moral.  Torture of any type is immoral.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 9, 2011 at 10:22 am Link to this comment

garard, - “I hope this charge against Dr. Leso leads to a conviction….”

-

I as I wrote at the very start of this thread.  Garard is in no way interested in humane justice.  He writes it very clearly himself.  He wishes only one outcome.  Pain and the loss of freedoms for those who don’t see the world as he does.

I remain appalled by the two sets of morals.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 9, 2011 at 10:14 am Link to this comment

garard - “It would seem that people who have allowed themselves to be brutalized are then “entitled ???” to brutalize others? Or “immunized”?  What shall we call it?”

-

Let’s call it prudent, smart, illustrative and/or instructive. 

Only those bent on one very narrow point of view would suggest that the motivation behind having interrogators undergo the same procedure would be to give those individuals the “right” to, or “immunization” from, “brutalizing” suspects.  Only the most sinister of minds would not, or could not, fathom that it’s a training exercise. Period.

The point is two-fold.  Having interrogators undergo the very same procedure would be one extremely instructive way to imbue both empathy and how NOT to bring real harm upon others.  Also, how torturous is that procedure when tens of thousands of U.S. troops undergo a very similar procedure which today’s interrogators go through themselves?  And who requests to be “tortured” or “brutalized” a second time? 

Garard, and many others here and elsewhere, desire to label the technique a brutal, Medieval, torture for political purposes.  Not, I repeat, not for humane reasons.  It’s born of either phoniness or ignorance.

Yes, water-boarding, as devised in the United States after Sept. 11, is a trick.  It’s a simulation.  The procedure resembles NOTHING LIKE I MEDIEVAL TORTURE! Let us, at the very least, get that part correct.

Lastly, why is that I am the only individual here who actually took the time to understand the technique before forming an opinion or judgment of said procedure?  I ask again.  Why am I the only one who thought it important enough to take the time?  It seems to me I am the only one who actually cared enough for these suspect’s treatment.

-

Let no one make the mistake in believing that I am defending torture.  I abhor torture.  I would never defend torture.  I am defending any nations right to use coercive and extraordinary methods to scare and make uncomfortable those who would target and kill thousands of civilians if it has even half a chance of saving the lives of thousands more.

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By gerard, April 8, 2011 at 9:57 pm Link to this comment

Cliff Carson:  Of course I am with you on this issue. And I hope this charge against Dr. Leso leads to a conviction and beyond that, to vastly extended investigations, exposures and prosecutions. The forces attempting to prevent it are very powerful, however, and everything will be done to try to prevent both the publicity and a conviction.   
  Nevertheless, contributions to support extended litigations are vitally important, plus any and all publication of accurate information.  Glenn Greenwald has been invaluable in this situation.
Psychologists for Social Responsibility are doing all they can, in addition to older organizations like ACLU and Amnesty and Courage to Resist and FiredogLake.com. 
  We have to keep on keeping on, though I often feel as if we are in some demented NoMan’s Land at the dead of night.  Onward!

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By Cliff Carson, April 8, 2011 at 8:28 pm Link to this comment

gerard,
My complaint was, and is, that when the subject of torture comes up all the effort of discussing torture is funneled to the “mild” torture.  No one seems to want to address the real issue about the depravity of those who authorize torture, do the torturing, or who should report it.  The Government is not going to, the Media is not going to, therefore it falls to moral people on the Internet to bring it out into the open.  Do you agree?
This was posted in 2005 in CounterPunch and is copied verbatim from the posting. 
The link to the posting http://www.counterpunch.org/phillips12022005.html
The following is an excerpt from that article, the Author Peter Phillips
A recent American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) posting of one of forty-four US military autopsy reports reads as follows:
“Final Autopsy Report: DOD 003164, (Detainee) Died as a result of asphyxia (lack of oxygen to the brain) due to strangulation as evidenced by the recently fractured hyoid bone in the neck and soft tissue hemorrhage extending downward to the level of the right thyroid cartilage. Autopsy revealed bone fracture, rib fractures, contusions in mid abdomen, back and buttocks extending to the left flank, abrasions, lateral buttocks. Contusions, back of legs and knees; abrasions on knees, left fingers and encircling to left wrist. Lacerations and superficial cuts, right 4th and 5th fingers. Also, blunt force injuries, predominately recent contusions (bruises) on the torso and lower extremities. Abrasions on left wrist are consistent with use of restraints. No evidence of defense injuries or natural disease. Manner of death is homicide. Whitehorse Detainment Facility, Nasiriyah, Iraq.”
A thorough check of Nexus-Lexus and Proquest electronic data bases, using the keywords ACLU and autopsy, showed that at least 95percent of the daily papers in the US didn’t bother to pick up the story. The Los Angeles Times covered the story on page A-4 with a 635-word report headlined “Autopsies Support Abuse Allegations.” Fewer than a dozen other daily newspapers including: Bangor Daily News, Maine, page 8; Telegraph-Herald, Dubuque Iowa, page 6; Charleston Gazette, page 5; Advocate, Baton Rouge, page 11; and a half dozen others actually covered the story. The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Seattle Times buried the story inside general Iraq news articles. USA Today posted the story on their website. MSNBC posted the story to their website, but apparently did not consider it newsworthy enough to air on television.
gerard This is what I mean by Torture and that the documented “Deaths by Torture” runs into the hundreds, what the count of the undocumented Deaths is,  can only be guessed about.

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By gerard, April 8, 2011 at 7:09 pm Link to this comment

Just one more point or two that need emphasis in this very interesting and troubling series:

Note:  The words used by GRYM is his authentic description of waterboarding:  “The subject being interrogated is tricked into the sensation of drowning—CO2 asphyxiation.”
  Emphasis on “tricked into the sensation” —that is, he’s not really tortured; it’s just a trick, and it’s okay because the “sensation” induced is “not really drowning”—only the sensation of drowning.  And presumably a bit later since the victim doesn’t really drown, it’s not torture.
  Also, emphasis on the statement that all those who waterboard victims must qualify by being waterboarded themselves, as part of their training.
It would seem that people who have allowed themselves to be brutalized are then “entitled ???” to brutalize others? Or “immunized”?  What shall we call it?
  All depends on the vocabuary, folks.  To hell with the reality.
  At any rate, it seems something you wouldn’t want to do on a Sunday morning under the beautiful bright sunshine.  That would be too incongruous, or something.
  Fascinating from a psychological point of view, no?

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By Cliff Carson, April 8, 2011 at 11:16 am Link to this comment

From the Goodman Article

“The roll call of U.S. officials implicated in torture is long, yet not one of them has been held accountable: George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, John Yoo, Alberto Gonzales, psychologists Col. Larry James and John Leso, among others. As an Arab Spring is celebrated around the world, we should turn over a new leaf in the United States and celebrate an American Spring as well, one that rejects torture and is not afraid to use its judicial system, whether trying accused terrorists or torturers.”

This is the essence of what this article was about and it is the essence of why these people can operate with impunity - plus they have their sympathizers.  To me nothing is so evil as some of the depravity that these “leaders” have championed and gone unpunished for those deeds.

If you really want to realize the extent of the problem just start googling.  That’s what I have done over the years and I found every excess that I have spoke of in my comments.  Hundreds of detainees tortured to death, tens of thousands of detainees tortured in one form or another, renditions, millions of people dead and uprooted for nothing other than their home sits on a valuable resource and yet the perpetrators go unpunished.

Punishment if swift and sure puts the brakes on inhumane depravity and lack of punishment encourages it.

Amy hit the nail on the head in this article.  We in America need an American Spring.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 8, 2011 at 8:47 am Link to this comment

Manchild,

Do you not understand after all this time that it’s simply not possible for me to care any less about what you think of me or any other subject?

As usual you offer nothing of substance.  You’re a child screaming to be heard.

Good luck to you.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 8, 2011 at 8:37 am Link to this comment

Cliff Carson,

Calm yourself.  I never asked for the minutia of the water-boarding technique.  Your imagination, coupled with emotion, has clearly gotten the best of you.

-

Torture victims of Medieval times were forced to both ingest and inhale water then had someone pounce on the subject as to cause aspiration (vomiting).  This technique was then repeated numerous times. - Torture victims were also forced to ingest dry rice or beans to the point filling the stomach cavity before water was ingested, then the mouth was forced closed by various methods.  Correct, yes?

What you describe resembles nothing like the torturous Medieval images you conjure.  Is that not correct?

The subject being interrogated doesn’t actually inhale or ingest water.  Is that not correct?

The subject being interrogated is tricked into the sensation of drowning (CO2 asphyxiation).  Is that not correct?

It was mandated that no physical harm be done to the subject under the interrogation technique.  Is that not correct?

There was always present a team of fully equipped medical staff in an adjacent room ready to move if harm were to come to the subject.  Is that not correct?

There was always present a team of observers to ensure the technique caused no real physical harm to the subject.  Is that too not correct?

It was mandated that each interrogator undergo the water-boarding technique themselves before he or she could apply the technique to detainees.  Is this correct?

One interrogator was immediately removed from the room, never allowed to return, after he failed to apply the technique as strictly outlined.  Is that not correct?

As far as we know, no physical harm came to any subject who had undergone the technique.  Is this not correct?

A similar technique, not to be confused with Medieval tortures, had been applied to tens of thousands of American military personnel during training with no lasting physical or emotional effects.  Is this too not correct?

As far as we know only three suspected “High Value” detainees were subjected to the technique.  Is this not correct?

According to Obama Administration Intelligence officials hundreds, even thousands, of lives were likely saved as a direct result of the technique being employed.  Is this not also correct?

You and others are complaining about the U.S. Government scaring three individuals suspected of killing thousands of people in an attempt to avert the deaths of thousands more.  Is this too correct?

Lastly:  The television reporter you witnessed having the technique employed on him was so tortuously harmed by the process that he requested the technique be applied a second time.

No one requests to be “tortured” a second time.  Is this too not correct?

-

I am opposed to torture. I am not opposed to making mass murderers uncomfortable or scared if it saves lives.

If any of the above is not correct I would sincerely be interested in learning more.  What I am not interested in is your opinion on the evils of the United States.  Not at this time, anyhow.  That’s an entirely different subject.

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By ardee, April 8, 2011 at 7:49 am Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man, April 7 at 1:10 pm Link to this comment


How about you, manchild?  Can you simply describe for us the torture in the technique referred to as “waterboarding” as devised immediately following Sept. 11?

I believe you are unable.

...and I believe you to be the most arrogant and ,ultimately, ignorant fool to post on these boards. You are blissfully unaware that your responses to those who respond to your piles of bullshite label you rather well. You glory in your ill repute as a pig glories in wallowing in its sty.

As it happens I am very aware of the technique of Waterboarding, as I am also aware that you are little else but an egotistical fool.

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By drbhelthi, April 8, 2011 at 6:03 am Link to this comment

The answer to why the USGOV has been using the CIA to terrorize the world and topple governments that do not suck-up to the CIA, since 1949, is contained in the following links,
and additional links provided. The NAZIs in the USGOV and Germany moved their HQ from Berlin to Wash D.C., Huntsville,AL, and Ft. Bliss, TX, beginning late 1945.

Mubarek was toppled because he refused to support a war against Iran. Gadhafy is similar.  The concept of “democracy”?  Right. The kind that israeli Zionists are bestowing on Palestinians.

http://www.nogw.com/cia.html

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By Cliff Carson, April 8, 2011 at 12:02 am Link to this comment

GRYM

I am interested in the fact that our Government is doing depraved things to innocent people.  I don’t give a rat’s ass about the intimacies of water boarding.

This thread is about torture not your whining about wanting to know the time between pours or the type of material placed over the face or the angle of inclination of the body during the torture.  Whether its 11 degrees or 15 degrees, makes no difference whether its torture or not, what is important is whether there are people being tortured to death.
Or simply being tortured for that matter

You have no valid argument about anything yet you hang on like a leach to the only thing that your little brain has the capacity to grasp.  Nobody has, and neither have I explained to you, to your satisfaction, the detailed description of the Water Boarding procedure.

The detainee is laid down on his back on a board or surface and he is restrained ( how makes no difference ) the surface is tilted with his head lower than his feet, a cloth is placed on his face and water is poured on the cloth so as to affect his breathing.  To breath he must intake the water.  The method simulates drowning.

Palestinian Hanging is where a detainee is handcuffed behind his back or his hands are tied behind his back and a rope, cable, or something is tied to the cuffs or tied hands and his body is lifted off the floor.  This puts great pressure on the shoulders and ribs ( often breaking the ribs).  Manadel Al-Jamaidi drowned in his own blood from crushed ribs.

Torturing detainees Children in front of the detainee can take many different forms.  Use your imagination.

Detainees have been suffocated, beaten to death,thrown out of airplanes without a parachute, starved to death, shot, sparked with electric probes, and many other gruesome ways to kill.

Tens of thousands of detainees were tortured by a nation that claims the moral high ground, but then there are people like you who, while turning a blind eye to whats going on, obfuscate about whether its happening by claiming that it can’t be happening if someone can’t explain to your satisfaction how it is done in the most minute detail. Even that would be OK if you really were open to reality.  What you have done is take the Ostrich route and stick your head in the sand all the time exclaiming how great you are.

You deny what you know is true.  Shame.

Just go crawl back under your rock and let the knowledgeable people on this thread discuss the Torture question.  I’ve wasted too much time conversing with a spoiled child.

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By gerard, April 8, 2011 at 12:02 am Link to this comment

I have a sneaking suspicion at this point in the commentaries that GRYM has himself been waterboarded?
And that that is why his estimation is that nobody else has been able to “describe” it.  In other words, he is the only one who “knows” what it is really like.  Of course that makes his experience superior to all of our speculations or everything we have read about the experiences of others.
  He says that he himself does not “approve of torture” and perhaps he has very profound reasons for that statemtnt.  Perhaps he is not as ignorant as he sounds—or as he would like us to believe.
  My feeling that at the same time I thank God that we have not experienced it, I am profoundly sorry for him that he has—if such is the case.  It would account for a lot of his Truthdig efforts.
  We need to be tender with each other, friends.  At the same time, I feel I owe an apology to any who may have been offended by my humorous twist to the subject a while back.  I have that kind of mind, unfortunately—attempting to escape from horrors by reducing them to the ridiculous, a la Franz Kafka, Orwell and other satirists.  Mr. Fish knows well what I am talking about.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 7, 2011 at 10:13 pm Link to this comment

Cliff Carson, - “I have seen water boarding done on TV both in documentaries and as demonstrations and I’ll bet you have too.  And if you were nearly as informed as you seem to think you are, you would know that water boarding goes back to the Holy Inquisitions in Medieval times.”

-

What you have seen on television is not nearly good enough.  What you saw on television was a fraction of the workings of the technique referred to as water-boarding employed in the United States immediately following Sept. 11.  What was actually done resembles nothing like a Medieval torture.  That is precisely my point.  Conjuring up centuries old images and watching television doesn’t cut it.

I don’t wish to move on and I don’t wish to change the subject.  What I’m looking for is a concise description of the torture in the technique referred to as “waterboarding” as devised immediately following Sept. 11. 

What does it tell us that no one here, including yourself, has been able to describe the technique in detail?

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By Cliff Carson, April 7, 2011 at 9:10 pm Link to this comment

GRYM

I have seen water boarding done on TV both in documentaries and as demonstrations and I’ll bet you have too.  And if you were nearly as informed as you seem to think you are, you would know that water boarding goes back to the Holy Inquisitions in Medieval times.  A minutia description of the act is not what is needed in this discourse.  What we need is for you to quit playing the fool and join the conversation. I’m sure you have knowledge about what we have been discussing here, after all you are an investigator.

What we really need to be talking about is the gutter immorality of torture and the people who do it, plan it, and GRYM, those who support it.

What I’ve been illustrating is the utter depravity of the act being perpetrated on innocent people.  Keep in mind that when someone is tortured to death it is because the interrogator didn’t get the information he wanted.

Just about every detainee who spent even one day at Abu Gharib, Bagram, Gitmo, or the hundreds of other torture centers around the world suffered some form of torture.  Remember I noted the Mark Denbeaux Senate report that found that almost 93% of all detainees were innocent of everything except being an Arab.

The first death by torture incident I mentioned, Manadel Al-Jamaidi, was killed by Palestinian Hanging.  How about an investigator like you describing to the readers here what that entails and how it got its current name?  I’ll give you a hint.  This torture also started in the Middle Ages during the Inquisition.  Seems to me the Catholic Church was running that madness then.  Who is running it today.

Can you imagine anyone brutal enough to torture children if front of the parents to force them to confess to something.  Would you confess to everything if someone was torturing your children?
I would ask what I needed to confess to and then I would do it before they laid the first hand on one of my children.

And you are wanting a minutia description of how water boarding is done.  What’s wrong with you GRYM?  How about realizing your mistake and turn left?

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By Go Right Young Man, April 7, 2011 at 8:10 pm Link to this comment

Cliff Carson,

You’re agitated that I wish to discuss the base issue of torture while you wish to change and expand the subject.

So far there have been thousands of words of protestations on torture but it seems impossible for even one individual here to describe the actual torture.  Why is that?

At this minute it’s my opinion that no one here yet understands what torture is or how it’s defined.  Shouldn’t this first be the issue?

I asked, what ought to be, a simple question.  Can anyone here describe for us the torture in the technique referred to as “waterboarding” as devised immediately following Sept. 11?

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By berniem, April 7, 2011 at 7:20 pm Link to this comment

Does anybody think that this Dr. Mengele of the pyche world will ever get convicted? Not if there’s any chance of his ratting out those above him who sanctioned and approved of his “techniques”! He’ll either walk for lack of (unclassified) evidence or suffer a pre-emptive “heart attack” ala Ken Lay. Obama and Holder are complicit in the cover up of past bush/cheney crimes as well as those committed under their own watch and surely don’t want any troublesome cats sneaking out of the bag!

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By Cliff Carson, April 7, 2011 at 6:40 pm Link to this comment

GRYM

You really need to get out and about and learn somethings.  You keep ranting about water boarding.  I keep talking about detainees murdered while being savagely tortured.

To all who read this comment:

Since GRYM is not about to go read anything that doesn’t meet his sordid agenda ( apologizing for the use of Torture by his heroes), would the rest of you go google “Taxi to the Darkside”.  This is a very well researched Documentary and even has some of the U S soldiers who tortured people to death making statements in the film ( admitting they did it).

About the taxi driver who was beaten about the thighs until he died.  The doctor who examined the body said the soldiers over days had beaten his legs so bad that the bones were the consistency of mush before he died.

If you happen to watch the film, this may be the one also where a blind man was sold to the U S forces as an enemy combatant.  Also I think this is the one where the interrogators would bring the detainees children in front of him and make him watch the torture of his children.

What kind of person would defend this?

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By gerard, April 7, 2011 at 2:49 pm Link to this comment

GRYM:  Please, please ... Laugh!  Just once, laugh.
When we were kids in Pittsburgh almost 100 years ago, we used to say to kids who never seemd to understand anything less than full-front assault,  “Don’t smile! You might crack your face!”

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By Go Right Young Man, April 7, 2011 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment

garard, - “you still think torture is reasonable and sane.”

-

If you took the time to listen you would understand well that I do not condone torture.  And, from the sound of it, I am more against torture than you appear to be.

Turn the faucet on and place my nose under the water?  I assumed correctly.  You have no idea what was being done.  You should be ashamed.  You don’t appear to know enough to call the practice “torture”.

At the very least I have taken the time to understand the technique of water-boarding as practiced in the United States after Sept. 11.

Perhaps you may stop pretending to be against torture.  At least until you know what it is you’re pretending to be against?

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By gerard, April 7, 2011 at 1:24 pm Link to this comment

Suggestion for GRYM:  Go to the nearest water faucet. Turn your head around so your mouth and nose are under it.  Turn on the water.  Don’t come up for air until you feel you are almost drowned.  Repeat as many times as necessary until you are ready to repeat after me:  “I bombed the Goldarnina Embassy in
Checkfististan.  Two people helped me and their names are ............... and .................. So sorry, please.”
  Of course it is crude to make jokes about such matters—but not making jokes—even about such matters—is also a kind of fatal crudity more crude than crude. It means that somewhere in the shadows of your mind you still think torture is reasonable and sane. Humor offers a natural escape from madness, and truly nutty people seldom have a sense of humor.
  But enough already!  I’m outta here.  Gotta go manage my own behavior.

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By Jacke, April 7, 2011 at 11:46 am Link to this comment

So what lives have been saved? Torture is against U.S. federal law so why isn’t Obama doing his job which is to enforce federal law?

“If Gitmo is still open when I take office I will close it.” Mighty words from a war monger corporate fascist that considers “war is peace.”

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By Go Right Young Man, April 7, 2011 at 9:10 am Link to this comment

How about you, manchild?  Can you simply describe for us the torture in the technique referred to as “waterboarding” as devised immediately following Sept. 11?

I believe you are unable.

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By ardee, April 7, 2011 at 8:03 am Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man, April 7 at 9:44 am Link to this comment


gerard,

I think if we’re going to use words like torture, evil, constitution and United States all in one sentence we should describe precisely what you’re talking about.

Can you simply describe for us the torture in the technique referred to as “waterboarding” as devised immediately following Sept. 11?  Also, while we’re on the subject, can you highlight the number of lives that have been saved, according to President Obama’s Intelligence Director and CIA director, by employing the technique?

The point is I believe you have very strong opinions about an issue you little understand.

How any civilized human being can pass by this putrid excuse for a reasonable political topic sans comment is beyond my understanding.

I wonder if any excrescence who defends waterboarding has ever experienced the nearness of drowning. I doubt he has or he might show some small bit of humanity and understand why waterboarding is, beyond any doubt, an act of torture.

The guilt or innocence of Manning is not at all the question, as anyone with a shred of decency might conclude. It is the inhumane treatment he and so many others receive either at the direct hands of our nation or in its behalf by others.

After Bush/Cheney demonstrated their unfitness for office in so many ways of course but chiefly by allowing, no insisting upon, the use of torture any defense of our prosecution of this phony “war on terror” was lost forever.

Anyone defending the use of torture, under any circumstance, deserves the calumnies heaped upon him.

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By drbhelthi, April 7, 2011 at 6:43 am Link to this comment

“Also, while we’re on the subject, can you highlight the number of
lives that have been saved, according to President Obama’s
Intelligence Director and CIA director, by employing the technique?”
gorightyoungman

Stooges who either repeat his mouthings or who mouth similarly are
appointed by the Kenyan, Mr. H.B.Obama.  Former administrators in the
CIA, who were not political appointees, have gone on record to state
that the torture methods in subject have not produced the truth.
Rather, these methods have consistently resulted in mouthings that
were suggested to the victims, all of which were fraudulent.

There is no evidence that any lives have been saved by the torturing
of victims held in illegal captivity by the USGov. Conversely, these
victims are misused as scapegoats to continue the destruction and
pillaging of the oil-resource countries being destroyed by the follow-
on puppetry to the GHWBushSr entourage, via misuse of the U.S.Military
and the resources of the United States of America.

Of course, pawns of the administration support the administration´s
disinformation and its debauchery of humane principles. Not to mention
violation of international laws and treaties signed by the “USGOV”.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 7, 2011 at 5:44 am Link to this comment

gerard,

I think if we’re going to use words like torture, evil, constitution and United States all in one sentence we should describe precisely what you’re talking about.

Can you simply describe for us the torture in the technique referred to as “waterboarding” as devised immediately following Sept. 11?  Also, while we’re on the subject, can you highlight the number of lives that have been saved, according to President Obama’s Intelligence Director and CIA director, by employing the technique?

The point is I believe you have very strong opinions about an issue you little understand.

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By drbhelthi, April 7, 2011 at 5:34 am Link to this comment

“- involved isolation techniques in an attempt to engineer “learned
helplessness” as a way to enforce conformity.  Anybody who knows
anything about it at all recognizes it as torture, plain and simple.”
gerard, April 6 at 2:22 am

Not knowing the intricacies of the situation, I cannot disagree with
the choice to decline. However, I disagree with the idea that it
constitutes “torture, plain and simple.”

Simple isolation for a period of time, when properly used, can spare
a child years of future, social torture as response to unsocial
behaviors. Many persons, who are adjudicated “criminals”, would have
been spared their maladaptive lives if they had received properly
applied “behavior modification protocols” in their childhood years.
Having been a certified school psychologist for over ten years after
the Ph.D. in 1970, I regret having not used behavior modification
protocols on more children. (Sometimes their parents, a few teachers,
and some principals had it been possible.)

The type of isolated deprivation that is being used on Bradley
Manning falls well outside the category of appropriate techniques
that are applied to improperly socialized or maladaptive children.
Just consider how many of our current and former USGOV, elected
leaders (Americans and the world) would have benefitted from behavior
modification techniques during their childhood. I wonder how many of
them stuck sticks into the anuses of their pets - - ?

My view is that any psychologists who have participated in devising
and implementing the torture techniques used by the USMilitary should
be delicensed and punished as criminals.

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By gerard, April 7, 2011 at 12:57 am Link to this comment

grym:  Look it up.  It’s public information. Your problem is mainly that you are trying to defend
evil and illegality simply because the U.S. is doing it.  The fact that torture has been against U.S. law—at least until recently when Mr. Bush decided to throw a monkey-wrench into the Constitution.  This fact seems to have escaped your information filter. 
  Boils down to this:  Accepting national crime as “false patriotism”—the last refuge of scoundrels, as somebody said once. On top of all that,the fact is that torture of captives to try to force information is not only wrong under long-established U.S. and international law, but is counterproductive as well. Inflict enough pain, and anybody will say anything just to get you to stop.  In addition, if you use it against others, that entitles others to use it against you.  So by supporting it, you are digging your own grave.

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By Cliff Carson, April 6, 2011 at 11:21 pm Link to this comment

A good article Amy

When regarding “Torture” the conversation seems to always turn to “sleep deprivation,water-boarding, forced nudity, and humiliation.

Why not talk about the torture that has killed many, many detainees.  How did these people ( yes Arabs are people ) die, more to the point, what manner of torture killed them?

I watched a Senate hearing a few years ago concerning the detainees at Gitmo.  The Senate had commissioned an investigation by a Professor Mark Denbeaux of Seton Hall.  He formed a team to pour over Government data and their report to the Senate showed that almost 93% of the detainees then at Gitmo were there because they were sold to the U S Forces for the bounty that the U S promised for delivering suspects to them.

There was no proof needed other than those people who were delivering the people and collecting the bounty.  The great majority of detainees there had never been on a battlefield anywhere.  Even children were sold as “enemy combatants”.

If that percentage holds true today of the more than 200 detainees still there only 14 would be guilty of anything.  That is probably why the Government won’t hold open and public trials - the Government knows that less than the fingers on your hand can count the number of detainees who were actually caught on a battlefield. 

If you want to know the horror of the torture put on innocent people during the “War of Terror” start by googling Manadel Al-Jamidi.  He was killed by Navy Seals using a torture called Palestinian Hanging at Abu Gharib on Nov 4, 2003.  He wasn’t the only one tortured to death that night a Abu Gharib.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 6, 2011 at 8:55 pm Link to this comment

gerard,

What do you know of the so-called Enhanced Interrogation Program as devised in the United States, by people not unlike Dr. John Leso, immediately following 9/11?  Very specifically, what do you know of the technique commonly referred to as “Water-Boarding”?

Are you able to explain, in some detail, the torture.

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By gerard, April 6, 2011 at 6:19 pm Link to this comment

GoRightYoungMan:  Re: “this military psychologist is guilty of crimes before trial.”
  The question with the psychologists who helped devise and promote the torture techniques (and were paid to do so, incidentally) is that they chose to break their professional oaths to “Do No Harm”—a fundamental essential that absolutely must be maintained by all “health professionals” under all circumstances. 
  It is an oath solemnly and voluntarily taken by all members of medical an psychological professions
—a deeply conscientious promise to uphold widely agreed upon ethical standards.  When even one professional breaks that oath (honored universally by medical and psychological professionals for centuries) the professiona of medicine, psychology and psychiatry are degraded and betrayed.  It is the enormous significance of this lapse in ethics that is vitally important. 
  The trial and judgment in this case represents an attempt to restore the essentiality of “Do No Harm” as a professioinal standard that will affect thousands of professionals, and the millions of people in their care.
  Those doctors who cooperated with the torture programs leaned on the reason (excuse?) that, although they might be “doing harm” to some people, they were “saving from harm” a lot of innocent bystanders. This, of course, is the “slippery slope” of moral murkiness and rationialization that is involved in all violence. The difference between the military and health professionals is that the military never promises to “Do No Harm” in the first place.  In fact, quite the contrary; they promise to do much harm to thousands while they are “saving” many other thousands—a long-accepted moral equivocation of extremely suspicious ambiguity.
  True moral integrity does not depend upon “whose ox is gored.” This is THE great moral issue of our time, and how it is worked out and decided will impact all humanity for better or for worse.
  To the degree that Bradley Manning is suffering mistreatment and humiliation before he has been tried, and if psychologists/psychologists/physicians
are permitting this mistreatment, they are also
“doing harm” and weakening both professional standards and standards of justice and equality.
If it can happen to Bradley Manning, it can happen to you.  This is a point which you seem reluctant to understand—that you are part of the human race as dependent upon standards of justice and equality as anyone else.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 6, 2011 at 4:07 pm Link to this comment

CenterOfMass, - “Regardless of Manning’s guilt or innocence, the issue is that he ought not to be mistreated in custody.  This seems clear from gerard’s post.”

-

We will simply disagree.  I believe it could not be more clear, reading garard’s comment, that he imagines Manning innocent before he’s been tried, however, this military psychologist is guilty of crimes before trial.

I remain curious about the two sets of morals.

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By gerard, April 6, 2011 at 2:11 pm Link to this comment

CenterofMass:  Thanks for clarification and support.  GRYM is, as his moniker indicates, a grim sort of guy with an unrelenting determination not to acknowledge the creepiness of our current Janus-faced “democracy.”

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By CenterOfMass, April 6, 2011 at 1:53 pm Link to this comment

@Go Right Young Man:

Regardless of Manning’s guilt or innocence, the issue is that he ought not to be mistreated in custody.  This seems clear from gerard’s post.

The psychologist, in contrast, is not being mistreated, and is simply under scrutiny for his professional conduct.  This scrutiny is certainly deserved, and we can all hope for an objective outcome.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 6, 2011 at 8:47 am Link to this comment

gerard,

How are you able to forgive pfc. Manning his oath while simultaneously condemning military psychologists in not keeping theirs?

You seem certain Manning is innocent before he’s been tried, however, you seen equally certain this military psychologist is guilty of crimes before a trial.

You never fail to keep me wondering why the two sets of morals.

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By gerard, April 5, 2011 at 10:22 pm Link to this comment

This participation of some behavioristic-oriented psychologists in the US military torture program is expremely reprehensible but not surprising, considering that for some years punishing brands of mind-altering technique have been in favor by “behavior-management” psychologists. They need to be made public and investigated in detail, especially since under Bush the procedures have “advanced” under the military into the barbarity of “waterboarding” etc.
  An unknown number of “unmanageable” children have been enrolled in “behavior management” programs by parents who have “lost control” of recalcitrant kids, and they have paid money to have their kids’ behaviors “managed” by methods they might not approve if they knew the details.
  I ran into this years ago when a brain-damaged child was in my care, and fortunately, I turned it down as it, too, involved isolation techniques in an attempt to engineer “learned helplessness” as a way to enforce conformity.  Anybody who knows anything about it at all recognizes it as torture, plain and simple. 
  Bradley Manning, the Iraq vet accused of leaking the State Dept. cables, (before even being tried) is undergoing isolation and forced nudity at a military prison at present.  Such treatment should be outlawed without any ifs ands and buts.  All psychologists and others who participate in that kind of program should be ordered to cease and desist, and the techniques should be outlawed as breaches of the Geneva Convention and of human decency.
  America loses much respect throughout the world by permitting such barbarous procedures.  It is particularly inappropriate for psychologists to be involved in this sort of “sanctioned” betrayal of their professional oath to “Do No Harm.”

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