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Occupy Draws Strength From the Powerless

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Posted on Feb 13, 2012
AP / Evan Vucci

An Occupy demonstrator sprawls beside a police car in Urbandale, Iowa, during a protest last December outside Republican presidential campaign offices in the Des Moines suburb.

By Chris Hedges

There is a recipe for breaking popular movements. I watched it play out over five years in the war in El Salvador. I now see these familiar patterns in the assault against the Occupy movement. It goes like this. Physically eradicate the insurgents’ logistical base of operations to disrupt communication and organization. Dry up financial and material support. Create rival organizations—the group Stand for Oakland seems to be one of these attempts—to discredit and purge the rebel leadership. Infiltrate the movement to foster internal divisions and rivalries, a tactic carried out consciously, or perhaps unconsciously, by an anonymous West Coast group known as OLAASM—Occupy Los Angeles Anti Social Media. Provoke the movement—or front groups acting in the name of the movement—to carry out actions such as vandalism and physical confrontations with the police that alienate the wider populace from the insurgency. Invent atrocities and repugnant acts supposedly carried out by the movement and plant these stories in the media. Finally, offer up a political alternative. In the war in El Salvador it was Jose Napoleon Duarte. For the Occupy movement it is someone like Van Jones. And use this “reformist” to co-opt the language of the movement and promise to promote the movement’s core aims through the electoral process. 

Counterinsurgency campaigns, although they involve arms and weapons, are primarily about, in the old cliché, hearts and minds. And the tactics employed by our intelligence operatives abroad are not dissimilar to those employed by our intelligence operatives at home. These operatives are, in fact, often the same people. The state has expended external resources to break the movement. It is reasonable to assume it has expended internal resources to break the movement.

The security and surveillance state has a vast arsenal and array of tools at its disposal. It operates in secret. It dissembles and lies. It hides behind phony organizations and individuals who use false histories and false names. It has millions of dollars to spend, the capacity to deny not only its activities but also its existence. Its physical assets honeycomb the country. It can wiretap, eavesdrop and monitor every form of communication. It can hire informants, send in clandestine agents, recruit members within the movement by offering legal immunity, churn out a steady stream of divisive propaganda and amass huge databases and clandestine operations centers. And it is authorized to use deadly force.

How do we fight back? We do not have the tools or the wealth of the state. We cannot beat it at its own game. We cannot ferret out infiltrators. The legal system is almost always on the state’s side. If we attempt to replicate the elaborate security apparatus of our oppressors, even on a small scale, we will unleash widespread paranoia and fracture the movement. If we retreat into anonymity, hiding behind masks, then we provide an opening for agents provocateurs who deny their identities while disrupting the movement. If we fight pitched battles in the streets we give authorities an excuse to fire their weapons. 

All we have, as Vaclav Havel writes, is our own powerlessness. And that powerlessness is our strength. The survival of the movement depends on embracing this powerlessness. It depends on two of our most important assets—utter and complete transparency and a rigid adherence to nonviolence, including respect for private property. This permits us, as Havel puts it in his 1978 essay “The Power of the Powerless,” to live in truth. And by living in truth we expose a corrupt corporate state that perpetrates lies and lives in deceit.

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Havel, who would later become the first president of the Czech Republic, in the essay writes a reflection on the mind of a greengrocer who, as instructed, puts up a poster “among the onions and carrots” that reads: “Workers of the World Unite!” The poster is displayed partly out of habit, partly because everyone else does it, and partly out of fear of the consequences for not following the rules. The greengrocer would not, Havel writes, display a poster saying: “I am afraid and therefore unquestioningly obedient.” And here is the difference between the terror of a Josef Stalin or an Adolf Hitler and the collective charade between the rulers and the ruled that by the 1970s had gripped Czechoslovakia.

“Imagine,” Havel writes, “that one day something in our greengrocer snaps and he stops putting up the slogans merely to ingratiate himself. He stops voting in elections he knows are a farce. He begins to say what he really thinks at political meetings. And he even finds the strength in himself to express solidarity with those whom his conscience commands him to support. In this revolt the greengrocer steps out of living within the lie. He rejects the ritual and breaks the rules of the game. He discovers once more his suppressed identity and dignity. He gives his freedom a concrete significance. His revolt is an attempt to live within the truth.”

This attempt to “live within the truth” brings with it ostracism and retribution. Punishment is imposed in bankrupt systems because of the necessity for compliance, not out of any real conviction. And the real crime committed is not the crime of speaking out or defying the rules, but the crime of exposing the charade.


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By heterochromatic, April 8, 2012 at 9:35 pm Link to this comment

if you didn’t complete it and fully present it here, even if it were 9900 pages, none
of us would ever be able to live with the disappointment.

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By Justin Case, April 8, 2012 at 9:28 pm Link to this comment

Ed, I’ve written up 9900 characters of reply so far regarding the Marx link’s contents. I think it’s good stuff. I’m sure you won’t agree with it (at first) but I think you’d at least admit the counter-points are worth consideration. It is however very long & I’ve barely scratched the surface. I’m only 15% through the document itself while providing rebuttal, proof & suggestion of how Marx is in error. Would you actually want me to use this space to reply? It would be lengthy but I can do so if no one objects…

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By Justin Case, April 8, 2012 at 3:55 pm Link to this comment

Ya, link is working today. Oddly I did merge the line fragments before & got no result but meh. I shoved it into google this time to ensure any partial match also gave me a cached web-site option. Got it, thanks Ed.

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By Justin Case, April 8, 2012 at 3:53 pm Link to this comment

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/america-government-out-control#comment-2326464

something interesting: one criminal trying to screw an entire segment of the chemical industry & how a response was used to, using market forces, fight back, and then be able to continue to survive when the conditions were yet again changed. I’m not overly familiar with the situation so if something is not genuine or not explained very well, I apologize for any misunderstanding

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By Ed Romano, April 8, 2012 at 7:43 am Link to this comment

Justin, I think the link might not have worked because the entire address was not highlighted. The last part of the address went onto the following line.
I sincerely suggest that you try again.

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By Justin Case, April 7, 2012 at 10:43 pm Link to this comment

Of course, Ed, I meant no misunderstanding. Nothing about capitalism offers a magical good-heartedness. If it’s done right it’s “fair” with consent. That doesn’t mean that everyone gets the best deal, doesn’t mean that people are free of errors, and doesn’t mean that magically assholes are socially or emotionally chained from being… supreme assholes.

Believe me, if there’s a way to contain assholes from doing major damage to the rest of us from any position of leadership or influence I’ll be all over it & let you know. For the time being… assholes get away with shit because that’s what assholes do. Some of those assholes also happen to be economic vampires. But don’t be fooled, I assure you that more varieties of asshole exist than donuts at Crispy Creme or Tim Horton’s.

Nature is a meat-grinder. Capitalism can’t divorce itself from nature. I think what perhaps some may misunderstand me is that I accept my survival instinct is to maximize the time between “now” and “grinding” and to maximize the benefit of each moment in life, while accepting also that it is nature’s purpose to kill us all, even just by aging, and we can not escape it. No market, technology or psychology can change this inevitability.

“Before we could ever have a meaningful discussion about it I would have to know that you have read, at least moderately, the criticism of capitalism by Marx. He is justly criticized, I think, for some of his grandiose predictions about the demise pf capitalism and what would replace it. “

Fair enough, and I have not read too much of Marx. I have a really big problem with central-controlled fiat currencies & I have a real problem with “capitalism” being “based on” the use of them without consent. Generally the gist of what I’ve got from Marx is that money is that same fiat, which really makes a huge difference. Just imagine 2 teams of engineers working with the same blueprints to make the same airplane but one team only gets rubber-rulers and the other team gets real ones. I think we can both contend the outcome will not be identical for both teams.

I tried your link. It didn’t work. That’s okay, I’m sure I’ll find what I’m looking for.

“I think we might find common ground in a belief that the well being of human beings should be the criteria by which all systems are judged”
That sounds very reasonable.

“we should be doing something in the brief time we’re here other than watching American Idol. “
Indeed. I have never seen it, nor Jersey Shore. I spend my time reading zerohedge & producing stock-predicting models, keeping up on news, a few prepping efforts, that kind of thing.

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By Ed Romano, April 7, 2012 at 7:31 am Link to this comment

Justin, After some of the jousting that took place between us in the past I was surprised to read your thoughtful and informative posts concerning your experience in the capitalist meat grinder. It is always promising to read about a worker who takes matters into his/her own hands and fights back at the injustices the higher ups try to foist on him, and I applaud you for it. It’s not always possible to do this, as you know, for example, when a company pulls up stakes in the US and moves the business to Bangladesh.
  I often call capitalists, in the abstract, names like “vampire” etc. But I understand that, given the dynamics and demands of the system, they are just as much prisoners of that system as the worker is - inasmuch as they must operate according to those demands or go out of business. Which is why, in a final analysis, workers cannot depend on the good heatedness of a capitalist for their well being. ...Before we could ever have a meaningful discussion about it I would have to know that you have read, at least moderately, the criticism of capitalism by Marx. He is justly criticized, I think, for some of his grandiose predictions about the demise pf capitalism and what would replace it. This is what the enemies of Marxism point to in their defense of capitalism…. But they avoid, like the plaque, his analysis of the foundation of capitalism….how it actually works, because he presents a picture that is difficult to argue with. A good short synopsis can be found at:
http://pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/shared/pdf/ess_
marxanalysis.pdf—
  I am not a fanatic. I can accept and even appreciate , for example,the guy who opens a car repair business and hires four or five people to work in the enterprise. I reserve my criticism for outfits like General Electic, Monsanto, Halliburton, the munitions industry and the like….. But these are all general comments and hardly touch the base of what an in depth discussion might reveal….I think we might find common ground in a belief that the well being of human beings should be the criteria by which all systems are judged. From there, hopefully, we might go on to reach some common understanding….This difference this would make to the reality that we are living in is probably comparable to adding a pebble to the Rocky Mountains…..but, hey…we should be doing something in the brief time we’re here other than watching American Idol.

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By Justin Case, April 6, 2012 at 8:40 pm Link to this comment

I try to look at everything in a fair but accurate light, Ed. I’ll disregard Ardee & John because they without a doubt are polar opposites to this style of living life. You aren’t, Ed. I don’t know about heterochromatic. The recent postings are something else but when I was reading comments initially to this article, those from heterochromatic seemed reasonable & calm. Strange now to see the opposite, so I question if it’s a group-think group-bullying mentality that some are prone to.

This is a situation I was in.

I worked for an out-sourcing company that itself was trying to outsource for an even cheaper rate, lower quality work & keeping a marginal profit in the middle instead of handing off the contract directly to the next out-sourcer. As it happens, where I worked did specific things from the start. We invented the technology & contacts needed, the company we out-sourced for did not. No one anywhere in any other company - paying us or paid by us - could do the work that I did nor of my fellow employees.

They wanted us replaced. They wanted us fired. They wanted those who remain to take a pay cut. Sure, in the corporate world this happens but only after 1 critical step: someone has to be available to replace us. As it happens there was only ONE path to this result. We had to train our own replacements. I’m sure you don’t really doubt my smarts, Ed, so I’ll be up-front: I saw the pattern without delay & I told everyone I worked with that we have no reason to co-operate.

I made my case very clearly: we lose our jobs as soon as we finish the training for our replacements. We don’t get paid to do this training anything extra to our normal jobs. We CAN’T be replaced while no one’s able to do the work. Therefore don’t fucking train them. They CAN’T stop us. We just need to put down our feet all at once & say NO. No need to make a union, just act like one. No one give in, no one crack, no one do the training and we’re all good.

End result: while I had something to say, no one got punished, no demotions, no firings, no wage cuts, no cut hours and no replacements. We kicked the exploiters in the nuts but the exploiting employer still made $2 profit for every $1 paid to us so they had nothing to cry about.

You don’t know me Ed and don’t seem to like me. I don’t know you, Ed, but I have nothing against you. One thing I’m sure of is that you hate exploiters for employers. Given the situation if you were in my place, wouldn’t you have been happy to pull off this same end result?

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By Justin Case, April 6, 2012 at 5:29 pm Link to this comment

“My Dear Justin, Call him whatever you like, but when someone is getting rich off MY labor ,and that of my comrades”
Then quit. Or demand a re-negotiation.
They are vampires.

Ed, we can agree on this.
I can’t respect anyone that is a parasite & I think no one should have any protected right NOR opportunistic fraud, exploitative power, to get rich off your labor while you get not nearly enough. If you both get rich - good for you both.

I assure you I am the precise opposite of a vampire because I am a real capitalist AND I am respectful of society because I am ALSO a real socialist.

I believe in the true benefits of real socialist collectivist activity and the real value of capitalist individual trade based on equality & fighting fraud. Never in my life have I had profit from the work of another unless I have deeply contributed to that work. For example: if I figure out how to get a person’s work to cost only 20% of what it used to cost in time, make it easier to organize, help pull the weight doing all the basics of the job like any other employee, then I appreciate if I get something extra for my efforts. I fully appreciate if the other people have nothing else to offer, but I also know when I create something extra to offer. Everything is voluntary & consenting so if I can’t get anything extra for myself, I will help only on the basis of a favor for someone who needs help, if I can spare it, not as employment for which I expect to be paid.

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By Justin Case, April 6, 2012 at 5:25 pm Link to this comment

The continued failure of central planning
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/central-planning-update-theory-and-practice-you-are-here

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By Ed Romano, April 6, 2012 at 1:48 pm Link to this comment

My Dear Justin, Call him whatever you like, but when someone is getting rich off MY labor ,and that of my comrades, he is what has traditionally been called a capitalist.Personally, I prefer the name -Vampire.

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By heterochromatic, April 6, 2012 at 12:32 pm Link to this comment

and all that was heard…..

http://tinyurl.com/6mydr3z

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By Justin Case, April 6, 2012 at 12:12 pm Link to this comment

Ardee & John: You are the most self-congratulating nonsense-talking propagandists to ever write anything. Ever.

Ed certainly doesn’t qualify in that category with you. We don’t agree but he’s not a fucker. Ardee, John: you are fuckers. Ed is merely misled about what capitalism is, that’s all.

Sad, so pathetic & childish that you attack me then claim I am the attacker, that you lie then claim I am the fraud, that you scream then claim I am the child.

So shameful.

If the rest of the world goes with your ways, it’s suicide for all. Thankfully people are not that dumb.

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By heterochromatic, April 6, 2012 at 6:25 am Link to this comment

@ardee—- good luck and come back every now and then, tell the folks how your
doing.


I think that working at the local level to build a decent alternative party is a great
thing and i hope that it brings you a huge measure of satisfaction along with the
usual frustrations.

all the best.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 6, 2012 at 6:15 am Link to this comment

I’m really sorry o see you go Ardee. 

I know you and She have a heck of a time, and I think I understand the ‘party right or wrong’ culture.  You need to cultivate the Democrats who are willing to step back and be introspective.  They need internal QC, and must be willing to throw out personal opportunists.  The Republicans are too far gone into their ideology for this introspection and cleansing. 

In my view, blind party loyalty is the major factor in giving license to corruption that hands government over to private interests.  Before you go, email me privately and let me know where you might go off to so I can assist if I can. 

I know there are what I call ‘rabid Greens’ like rabid Republicans and Rabid Democrats, but I get the feeling you are not one of them.  If your thinking is to have a green candidate when the Democrat is unacceptable, and fully back them, great.  If a Dem is adequately good and the Greens back that Dem, that’s great too.  I hope you’re not going to build a party just for the sake of it, although, there is some value in that as well, de-concentrating power. 

So, If I may contribute, my sole credential is that I belong to the party George Washington suggested in his farewell address, the ‘No Party Affiliation’ party.

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By Ed Romano, April 6, 2012 at 5:32 am Link to this comment

Ardee, Best of luck. Give ‘em hell.

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By ardee, April 6, 2012 at 4:55 am Link to this comment

John Best asks, “What IS Progress”?,

Hi and goodbye,John

I have been coming to this forum since 2007 and now have accepted a coordinating position with a Green Party registration drive that will better serve my political interests than this zoo ever has.

With a self involved and sophomoric moron like Justin one simply should ignore and move along. His only purpose here is self gratification and that might better be served by using his right hand and a lubricant.

With time I have come to see that this forum serves only to boost the Democratic Party and some of its propagandists are better at it than others. One broom riding witch has proven to be so vile and contemptible that one can only shake ones head at her lack of self image. I am glad to note that more are rising up to object to her mangling of truth, her sophomoric insults and her holier than thou personality void.

Some commenters here will be missed, you among them. Most will not. I wish you goodbye and good luck and suggest that real world activities serve your goals and this nation far better than hanging here with the mouth breathers.

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By Ed Romano, April 6, 2012 at 4:47 am Link to this comment

Good Morning Comrades, Just happened to be passing the zoo and thought I’d say hello.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 6, 2012 at 4:03 am Link to this comment

Het, Shall I speculate farther, or drop it?  I’m not one who tries to help every hopeless cause, but on occasion…..

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By heterochromatic, April 5, 2012 at 7:25 pm Link to this comment

JB—he’s totally a Head Case.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 5, 2012 at 6:42 pm Link to this comment

fubar?

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By heterochromatic, April 5, 2012 at 6:38 pm Link to this comment

JB—- the best response.


that one really is crazy.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 5, 2012 at 6:26 pm Link to this comment

(crickets chirping)

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By Justin Case, April 5, 2012 at 3:35 pm Link to this comment

“That the black death was peculiar to a continent (which to most inhabitants did constitute the known world) is “
... is a lie.

If you check up on the real world population, what was known only to the Europeans is irrelevant. -30% loss to global population never happened.

FACT.
Ardee: shut your yapping pie hole of lies.
John: shut yours too.
Ed: hi, Ed, how’s your day going?

Others: meh. You can read, you don’t need me to tell you what’s what.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 5, 2012 at 5:33 am Link to this comment

Sorry Ardee, we must have been writing our posts at the same time.  I’ll stop, but it seems the decent thing to try and help Justin’s case.  Online culture I think can be as vicious and petty as squabbling teenagers, yes.  We see spillover (to some degree) in adults all the time.  The anonymity and ability to strike out are irresistible to some.  I think this is damaging to our ability to appreciate other people, and this is not an appreciation we can lose in these very new times.  The interconnection of our individual minds by this ‘social network’ is really the brave new world.  We are neurons in a big new collective brain, and the influence of each neuron on the others is going to influence the overall evolution of the thing, and the aggregate attitudes about other people.  The extrapolations are frightening.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 5, 2012 at 5:21 am Link to this comment

That the black death was peculiar to a continent (which to most inhabitants did constitute the known world) is immaterial. 

Your additional comments twist the facts, I never, ever, have made any threat whatsoever.  Check the facts.  By contrast, you did once describe piercing my neck with a sharpened pipe.  You are (at present) a vicious and crude bully.  How could anyone suggest anything like a ‘buckshot mouthrinse’?  I am not of tender psyche, but for god-sake, there are those who are.  Have a little decency.  Do you realize how absolutely un-civil your degraded comments are? 

Gentlemen, Not a 12 years old or ‘madman’, but rather a victim of long-standing abuse and trauma.  The instant rise to violent graphic imagery is a clue.  The rather quick friend-foe judgment, and removal any and all barriers of decency toward foe.  The need to control at all costs…..even this forum, by twisting facts and clear intimidation.  I say it is a defense mechanism of a badly damages psyche.

Justin, take a good look at yourself.  You’ve been psychologically battered, likely physically battered as well.  You’ve adopted a hyper-defensive approach to others, and have adopted fantasies of violence against perceived aggressors.  People who challenge your ideas are not an aggressors.  There is no need for a ‘win at any cost’ or ‘submit or violence’ mentality.  If there is any shred of decency inside you, think about how mean you have become, probably as a defensive response.  Being offensive may seem like a good defense, but it is only short term.  In the long run, it will isolate you and add to your dissatisfaction and frustration.  You can change.  I hope for your sake, you can let go of the horrors you’ve experienced and seen so you do not become the very thing you hate.  Step back from the keyboard and take a walk before you reply.  Think perhaps there may be a better way.  Good Luck.

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By ardee, April 5, 2012 at 4:55 am Link to this comment

John Best

Please John, I beseech you to cease communicating with this useless and quite possibly disturbed and certainly sophomoric clown.

If you stop he will have lost his only audience and quite possibly we will be rid of him once and for all.

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By Justin Case, April 5, 2012 at 2:54 am Link to this comment

IN all written human history, since humans used fire and writing, there has never ever been a 30% global die-off.

Ever.

Also, you threatened, John, that I be forced to endure my family members being tortured to force me to do things which I would refuse, only to then claim that would prove that I can be turned evil even though I can not.

You are vicious pure evil, John. You owe no one an apology. You owe yourself a buckshot mouthrinse because you’re a stain on all human civilization.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 4, 2012 at 4:35 am Link to this comment

Why bother?  Because you are rude.  Because you have no respect for others.  Mostly because you selectively pull ‘facts’ out to use as proof of some grand world vision only you possess.  When they are questioned, rather than defend reasonably, you storm off into a tantrum like either a 12 year old, or a madman, possibly a megalomaniac.

We have seen in recorded history die offs in the range of 30%.  This is not trivial, but it is not a collapse.  I question your understanding of the nature of cascade failures and present dependence on, and nature of the underlying economy.  So do your thing…....it makes my day. 

By the way, your talk pf ‘sharpened pipes to the carotid’, and ‘playing with dead animals’, and yourself as some ‘teacher’ in a new world?  Uh, I hate to break this to you, but they came from your imagination.  Who’s the sick one?

Apologies everyone, I shouldn’t be indulging this sickie.  Those last few posts were to see how long he could go and maintain some reasonableness.  Apparently as soon as a challenge is issues…....KA-BOOM!

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By Justin Case, April 3, 2012 at 11:06 pm Link to this comment

John Best aka psycho-boy wrote this:
“By comparison to collapse (or implosion), a war or pandemic which killed only 2 billion would be considered an orderly population shrinkage.”

In reality this would be the most disorderly loss of life recorded in all human history. No pandemic or war has done this. At this point in human history a loss of 2 billion would be the biggest total body count ever as well as the biggest % population loss (over 28% loss of global population).

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By Justin Case, April 3, 2012 at 11:02 pm Link to this comment

John, I was even agreeing with you in one of the last comments.
For you to then refer to me as 12 or mad makes you an insane fraud liar.
Why do you even bother?
Go play with your animals in the backyard you already killed, Dahmer boy. you’re not fooling anyone here.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 3, 2012 at 3:06 pm Link to this comment

12 years old or mad…....yep.

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By Justin Case, April 3, 2012 at 1:38 pm Link to this comment

we’re above 7 billion now, so I guess it’s up to those people who would be lost, to reduce to 5 billion, if that’s a “collapse” or not.
The immigration issue is a really big one on this. If any region is under-utilized immigration helps take care of that. If any skills, materials or money are with those immigrating then removing restrictions on immigration means a lot of benefit happens to the immigrants & to those living near them in their new home.
It’s hard to quantify how many may travel with invention-ideas and/or investing assets, farming skills, etc., that can greatly improve where they move to that mitigates a collapse ... if immigration is permitted.

That’s one issue where I feel a city-state is better than a nation-state. Nation-state central control over immigration has far too little knowledge of regional economics to benefit every city from a singular immigration policy, and then there’s backlogs of central-planners not adequately handling influx of immigrants.

De-centralizing actually helps a lot to alleviate this situation.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 2, 2012 at 6:12 pm Link to this comment

5 billion?  Perhaps this is semantic, but 5 billion is not what I call a ‘collapse’.  That’s a kill-off or a pandemic.  Collapse means implosion

By comparison to collapse (or implosion), a war or pandemic which killed only 2 billion would be considered an orderly population shrinkage.  And that sort of ‘orderly’ shrinkage is not likely to occur without disturbing some lynch pin of the oil economy, so, a cascade failure might result. 

It may indeed be that doing various resource calculations might have allowed for a population of 5 billion, had we approached that number in building sustainable infrastructure as we go, but falling back to 5 billion after having overshot is probably another matter, far less probably I’d guess.

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By Justin Case, April 2, 2012 at 5:45 pm Link to this comment

I estimate the sustainable population to be about 5 billion. If people ease up on immigration restrictions & widely spread knowledge & tools for sustainable living maybe the total population can increase. I totally agree about it being a regional issue. Every solution will look different.
Sadly some governments find themselves to be “stable” by strongly restricting immigration while happy to use trade imbalances and/or military power to deprive other regions. Hm, not very nice, that move.
Maybe we can win if we all admit that we can win - and then refuse to co-operate any further with the corporate banksters & government mafia all around the world trying to breed a new generation of slaves that resists less & will live with even more debt & perhaps have smaller stomachs. SO much better that we borrow for food instead of earn & grow our own. Better yet, borrow to infinity for iPads & x-box and rob each other for food.

We can defy their plans if we admit we have the power.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 1, 2012 at 7:42 pm Link to this comment

To what levels will populations likely collapse?  By region or gross temperate zone of course, assuming some short period of stabilization due to migration and regional environmental advantages.

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By Justin Case, April 1, 2012 at 6:57 pm Link to this comment

No worries. I can see that no one wants to address the real proof I brought up about execution by pepper spray, no one wants to admit the real truth that police are your most likely cause of death in the coming collapse, no one wants to admit that Occupy is merely the beginning of an immune response but does NOT have the power to stop the infection because real force is required, and no one wants to admit (who is writing here) that they are wrong, brutally and several times proven wrong.

Hey, no skin off my nose. I WILL be prepared & anyone following up on what I shared will be prepared with me & will survive the onslaught.

For the jackasses that deny this - early & painful death is your future. Hey, you still have a choice to stop that, I don’t overly care. The herd has to get thin somehow, that’s nature’s way.

This is a harsh world & if you’re lucky you get ONE chance to survive calamity. I am that chance for you. Good luck for you jackasses. You’re putting a gun in your mouth and insisting it’s delicious cotton candy.

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By Foucauldian, April 1, 2012 at 6:20 pm Link to this comment

Comments like these don’t make any kind of sense. 
They indicate total breakdown of communication.  This
thread has been an example par excellence of what
transpires whenever parties to a dialogue go through
the motion of communicating while refusing to own up
to the fact that they’re just talking past one
another.

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By heterochromatic, April 1, 2012 at 5:06 pm Link to this comment

Justin is either 12 years old or quite mad.

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By ardee, April 1, 2012 at 3:35 pm Link to this comment

By Justin Case, April 1 at 2:27 pm Link to this comment

Nothing’s changed. Trolls & illiterates still trying to pretend they can slip one by me, me still using solid facts & multiple sources to prove that I’m right and winning every time.
Meh.
Literate readers will see the difference & come to the correct conclusions.

Wow, you are really and truly an egomaniac of the first water. You write as if you were a literate twelve year old.

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By Justin Case, April 1, 2012 at 3:27 pm Link to this comment

Nothing’s changed. Trolls & illiterates still trying to pretend they can slip one by me, me still using solid facts & multiple sources to prove that I’m right and winning every time.
Meh.
Literate readers will see the difference & come to the correct conclusions.

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By Ed Romano, April 1, 2012 at 9:06 am Link to this comment

Just thought I’d stop in for a moment and see how things are going at the zoo. Nothing much changed I see.

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By heterochromatic, April 1, 2012 at 8:56 am Link to this comment

Justin——write out the meaning of “consent decree” on the blackboard or just
stand in the corner.

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By Justin Case, April 1, 2012 at 8:54 am Link to this comment

Clearly the meaning of “consent decree” is we’ll fucking shut you down and empty your budget if you don’t do what you’re told.

That’s the facts, ma’am.

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By heterochromatic, April 1, 2012 at 8:49 am Link to this comment

no Justin ....not “decree”..... “consent decree”....... BOTH WORDS TOGETHER…. like
a grown-up would do .... now run along and do the homework correctly, little
man.


and shut the keyboard down until you fill the cranium up.


you can post things wither better effect when you actually understand the
meaning of what you’re posting.

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By Justin Case, April 1, 2012 at 8:41 am Link to this comment

Clearly I understand what “decree” means. It means no choice. Doesn’t matter what you say.

Disobedience from the decree will result without QUESTION in the take-over of Oakland PD.

That’s how it works. That’s not “consent” or “agreement” that’s take-over & shut-down.

You’re far far too off base to tell me what’s what. I’m the one who will teach you, apparently. I didn’t want to assume anything, heterochromatic, but really, you’re repeatedly showing you can’t read. Your ignorance is your problem.

I notice, of course, once I proved my claim about police using pepperspray for executions you had no further comment on the matter.
Maybe you thought you’d be “clever” and challenge me and somehow thought I’d come up with nothing, but you ended up with nothing. Then you had nothing to say.

What say you of this execution torture by police using pepper spray? Legally acceptable? Homicide? Turn your back? Or put those cops in jail on death row? Firing squad? I say executions for all the officers, no question. Bullets through skulls & make it public on TV to restore accountability to law enforcement.

Nothing replaces the true accountability of public executions of murderers who are police.

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By heterochromatic, April 1, 2012 at 8:31 am Link to this comment

Justin——- if nothing else, look up the meaning of “consent decree’.....


you’re not understanding this on even a high-school level.

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By Justin Case, April 1, 2012 at 7:36 am Link to this comment

“In a hearing that exposed the breadth of the problems facing Oakland, a federal judge blasted the Oakland Police Department Thursday for failing to make court-ordered changes designed to reduce police misconduct and abuse.”

This is not “agreement”. This is a COURT ORDER. This is MANDATORY. Officers in violation should be ARRESTED. The police force in violation can be SHUT DOWN. That’s right, the entire police force FIRED.

“Shortly prior to the assault on Occupy Oakland, the superintendent of the OPD resigned – after the scathing report by the federal judge – and Howard Jordan was appointed as interim chief of police. What was Jordan’s prior role as assistant chief of the OPD? According to the San Francisco Chronicle, Jordan:

has been the Police Department’s top authority on bringing the force into compliance with a consent decree ordered after four officers were accused more than a decade ago of systematically beating and framing suspects.”

“a federal judge warned last week that the city faces the possibility of having its Police Department placed in federal receivership due to its failure to fully comply with the court order. Such a move could result in the city losing control over its police budget, its biggest general fund expense.”

This is not an agreement. This is A LEGAL REQUIREMENT. OBEY OR BE SHUT DOWN. No more Oakland Police.

LEARN TO READ.
No budget control, no municipal control, any officer can be shut down & replaced with NO warning & NO union refusal. The entire operation is cut off at the knees.

“the accord that the OPD was compelled to reach in 2004, which prohibits the use of potentially lethal and harmful suppression techniques against peaceful crowds”

PROHIBITS.

Learn to read. NO EXCEPTIONS. PROHIBITED.

“There’s a thin blue line in law enforcement between enforcing the law and breaking the law. It’s clear to US District Court Judge Henderson that the OPD keeps crossing that line.”

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By Justin Case, April 1, 2012 at 7:27 am Link to this comment

The police are definitely found in violation in Oakland. 100% confirmed, you can not read, they broke the law and are in contempt of court for the lawsuit. This has been pointed out already by many lawyers in Oakland. There is no one to arrest the Oakland police except the National Guard. There is a chance the police WILL Be arrested. Department of Justice is considering full shut down of several police forces.

I am so very glad I’m completely literate and completely aware - unlike some very badly misled individuals with a high sense of self-esteem and a low regard for the facts.

http://occupytheplanet.org/2011/11/02/federal-judge-threatens-oakland-police-department-with-court-takeover-over-ongoing-abuses/

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By Justin Case, April 1, 2012 at 7:23 am Link to this comment

For those who do not resist this is the future:
police marching up and down the street murdering entire families.
They will not coldly murder.

They will murder with great pride, say that everyone they killed is a terrorist and give themselves giant hero-parades and medals of honor ... for shooting your babies in the face and you and planting evidence of terrorism.

Hope you’re ready for it. City-wide parades and voluminous speeches will honor the hero-police who shoot all your babies.

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By heterochromatic, March 31, 2012 at 10:27 pm Link to this comment

Justin—- I’m sorry that you’re a bloody idiot and can’t tell the difference between
not using shemweapons in certain ways and not being allowed to use them at all.


nothing can be done for you as you’re unable to read and understand or simply
too crazy to take seriously.

Oakland PD still uses tear gas, Case, and you can ‘t find anyone saying that the
judiciary found them in violation of their obligation from the agreement.


I’m sorry for you…... and your problems.

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By Justin Case, March 31, 2012 at 10:13 pm Link to this comment

I have complete understanding here.
Any use whatsoever by Oakland PD of chemical weapons is in violation of the LAWSUIT. It’s not an agreement, it’s a LAW ENFORCED JUDGEMENT by A COURT OF LAW.
Oakland PD has no choice in the matter - disagreement / refusal is illegal. Period.
Glad we can clear that up. I’m 100% in the right on this & your dissent is noted as wrong-headed from this point on.

Every officer of Oakland PD is in contempt of the legal judgment who is now using chemical weapons on protesters and should be arrested. Every such officer also exposes Oakland PD to further losses in court for new claims.

I’m trying not to read between the lines too much but it sounds like you’re 100% defending the violent actions of the police.

These violent actions are repugnant at all times to all people & should be stopped by ANY means.
If police can “lawfully” execute citizens like this, and torture them in public, then we have no law, we have no police. We may as well all have Mexican drug lords or Sicilian mafia for our local law enforcement. It is just as sane & just as safe.

Maybe safer. At least the mafia respects Family, so they say.

I say those officers are evil and should be stopped using deadly force. They should be given a chance to be arrested at gun point without shots fired. They should never ever be allowed to use mass pepper spray attacks on the public ever again.

Every such incident is a terrorist attack by police and all the people have every legal right to use any violent force to stop this terrorist act at any time. Every time.

I promise you this: if the cops keep it up then the new wave of protesters will show up with guns and just execute the police. Is that what you want?

This outcome is 100% assured if the police do not back down. This is the lesson of history: the people have been pushed so far that they have no choice but to be murdered or to KILL their oppressors. Once you see 10 guns aimed at every officer at every protest/uprising site you’ll see what I mean - you’ll see that cops get murdered 100 at a time and civilians too.

We can avoid all of that if we use force SOONER. Or… as I mentioned, escape entirely. I do not shun any Jew, black or anyone else who evaded murder at the hands of the “lawful” Nazi SS police whose orders were to murder civilians. Those who left Germany before the war survived & made the right choice. Those who died but did so fighting to the death also did the right thing.

This kind of evil must be stopped. Arrests, killings, trials for terrorism and crimes against humanity, overthrow of government. This MUST happen or all is lost. Your children & children’s children will grow up with a gun in their mouth & an early grave before age 20 if you make the OTHER choice.

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By heterochromatic, March 31, 2012 at 7:03 pm Link to this comment

Justin—- what you have is an agreement reached with the Oakland PD arising
from cases where actions of THAT particularPD were found abusive of police
authority…. not a damn thing about any general restrictions on police
departments around the nation telling them that they may never use tear gas or
pepper spray .


read your links carefully, ALL of them show an agreement to LIMIT Oakland PD
use of things because they were not PROPERLY used by the department and
limited to those situations where the chemical weapons may be LAWFULLY
employed .

OAK PD agrees to LIMITS and lawfully use, bill and not anything major….and
nationwide.


hope that helps correct for misunderstanding.

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By Justin Case, March 31, 2012 at 6:17 pm Link to this comment

The last time I was corrected & was wrong was almost 2 years ago. I had somehow bought into the hype about fossil fuels being used for all fertilizers because that’s a common myth & didn’t check it out. I was told off, asked to cite which chemicals & while looking it up very deeply for the first time I realized I had been duped.

Hey, it can happen. I learned my lesson & research more deeply before I try to tell others what’s what due to that incident.
http://blog.buzzflash.com/node/13109
Oakland Police Violated 2004 Agreement Limiting Use of Militarized Weapons to Disperse Crowds

“Oakland police will no longer indiscriminately use wooden or rubber bullets, Taser stun guns, pepper spray and motorcycles to break up crowds, under an agreement announced Friday.”
OAKLAND
Agreement reached on crowd-control tactics

Henry K. Lee, Chronicle Staff Writer

Saturday, November 6, 2004

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/11/06/BAGHR9MTMV1.DTL#ixzz1qkO4qy1B


This article appeared on page B - 5 of the San Francisco Chronicle

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By Justin Case, March 31, 2012 at 6:13 pm Link to this comment

Back in the day, Japanese descendent American citizens were interned during WWII though they had been good citizens, not criminals. Also, Mussolini and Hitler each lawfully empowered officers to kidnap & summarily execute various citizens without explanation.
I’m not reading between the lines about the future, I’m saying we ought never to allow that part of the past to be repeated. We have solid solutions on how to stop it: physical force IS required. Evasive tactics ARE REQUIRED. Being heavily armed IS REQUIRED. At some point those who can only run to survive MUST RUN.

I have a habit of not being misinformed. In the last 10 years of keeping others informed online I’ve been successfully corrected 4 times. I accept informed correction but I am not mistaken about Oakland PD.

“119 people pressed civil rights lawsuits for unlawful beatings and detention, ultimately settling for $11 million with an agreement that the Oakland Police Department would implement significant reforms”

http://web.archive.org/web/20091020060244/http://geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/2398/police_lawsuits.htm

http://www.ktvu.com/news/1990095/detail.html

Riders’ Cop Case Settlement Will Cost $10.9 Million
POSTED: 6:05 a.m. PST February 19, 2003
UPDATED: 1:41 p.m. PST February 20, 2003
OAKLAND, Calif.—City officials have agreed to pay nearly $11 million and implement police reforms to settle civil rights lawsuits brought by more than 100 people who claimed they were victimized by a group of rogue police officers known as The Riders. While some reforms were in place before The Riders scandal broke, Oakland Police Chief Richard Word said Wednesday the policies will strengthen the department’s supervision, training and internal affairs.

http://web.archive.org/web/20100315131342/http://articles.sfgate.com/2003-02-19/news/17478682_1_corruption-scandal-settlement-plaintiffs

“U.S. District Court Judge Thelton Henderson approved the settlement in the civil cases Jan. 22 after 18 months of negotiations, but the settlement was under seal until Tuesday night”

The original web articles are partly gone. HOWEVER, checking court records with the date & the judge & the jurisdiction leaves no question this is solid fact.

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By heterochromatic, March 31, 2012 at 4:31 pm Link to this comment

Justin—-if you can post a court case that ruled that police are not allowed to
use chemical weapons, I’ll be quite happy to read it.


perhaps you’re mistaken about it or the case simply held that OaklandPD
illegally used the weapons in the case at issue.


There was certainly not any grand sweeping ruling debarring all police from
using tear gas or pepper spray that I’ve ever seen ofr that is in force in the
country.


but please post the link and I’ll help explain it for you so that you’re no longer
misinformed.

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By Justin Case, March 31, 2012 at 3:38 pm Link to this comment

Oakland police lost a 2003 lawsuit demanding forever after that the police are NOT legally empowered to use chemical weapons on protesters.
Around the world, when violence by police on the masses is “legally empowered” then the result is always the same: mass murder and mass torture by police. Destruction of all freedom, all rights, and at some point, warlords and gangsters control the entire nation.
I can demonstrate people killed by police for LESS than talking - Oscar Grant - and for talking -
http://youtu.be/9nssw1bzBic
62 year old tied up & executed using pepper spray.

This execution murder worthy of the KGH at the height of the Soviet Era means the police officer who did it should be killed by firing squad. Period. I would happily personally do it. It’s the right thing to do.

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By heterochromatic, March 31, 2012 at 3:15 pm Link to this comment

Justin——if you can demonstrate the police using lethal force against someone
for doing no more than talking, please do.


when you can’t seem to see any difference between the Syrians killing masses of
protesters and the cops here scattering people with tear gas, I worry about you.

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By Justin Case, March 31, 2012 at 9:17 am Link to this comment

Hetero, I think more of us will end up on slabs & permanently injured near-death from following your direction.
This one isn’t a hard science so I’m not going to tell you what’s “fact” as we are conjecturing on the future.

How about this: given the dangerous & lethal actions of police using this force to stop people just from TALKING about what is really happening to us all ... if anyone is unwilling to take physical action for survival defense against these terrorists wearing badges, get a passport & get yourself safely to another nation that is NOT treating its citizens like this.

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By heterochromatic, March 30, 2012 at 8:58 pm Link to this comment

Justin Case—- i’m perfectly fine with using pepper spray or even tear gas, as their
use is a substitute for clubbing and shooting people…..

and anyone who thinks that the police aren’t empowered to use these things and
doesn’t believe the cops are using them correctly in most situations…..and wants
to think that the answer to improper usage is recourse to force against the cops
rather than resort to law ....then good luck to you and I hope you’ll apologize to
anyone listening to your nonsense and inheriting a slab in the morgue in
consequence.

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By Justin Case, March 30, 2012 at 8:46 pm Link to this comment

Are you afraid to give your opinion? I don’t want to harass it out of you.
I don’t like chemical weapons being used on people. I feel it’s a high crime like rape and kidnapping and should be punishable by death or life sentences.

Comment?

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By heterochromatic, March 30, 2012 at 4:57 pm Link to this comment

Justin—- are those weapons banned by the geneva convention to use in war time?


—-

of course they are not.

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By Justin Case, March 30, 2012 at 2:57 pm Link to this comment

heterochromatic : are those weapons banned by the geneva convention to use in war time? If so then would you consider it permissible on a nation’s own civilians? I don’t consider it acceptable. It’s resulted in serious unlawful injury (Oakland PD lost a lawsuit over this in 2003 actually, directing them to NEVER do it again, and they have), and due to allergic reactions pepper spray can lead to death.
Surely this violent police action must be stopped or at least the damage avoided with physical action by civilians.
It’s not like that’s calling for violence against police, given that avoidance tactics & gas masks is physical action. Even distracting police to deploy with those weapons to the wrong locations thereby avoiding actual use at the actual intended protest-site is a viable non-violent physical action.

Surely I`m not offending anyone by suggesting such options… am I?

How about if I suggest that any such chemical weapon deployed on peaceful protesters justifies removal of these weapons by any nearby civilians who are able-bodied & willing. Is that too far?

Severe attacks en masse to peaceful protesters upon both their eyes and respiratory systems is extremely offensive and dangerous. Would you otherwise suggest we just take it until more people are blinded, choked, maybe killed, all needlessly?

Pretty open to useful suggestions about how to reduce harm while remaining non-violent.

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By heterochromatic, March 30, 2012 at 2:30 pm Link to this comment

Justin Case——Chemical weapons are over the line & necessitate physical
action,....
———————————

WTF are you saying?
are you calling tear gas and pepper spray chemical weapons that allow the
population to take physical action against the police??????

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By Justin Case, March 30, 2012 at 12:52 pm Link to this comment

oh no, I wrote a comment that was 100% on topic to the article. Now I’ve really done it.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, March 30, 2012 at 8:53 am Link to this comment

You win.  People, hear me!  Justin wins.  Apparently we will have, as a component of our energy and raw material economy, the mining of landfills.  He’s done the research, so it’s time to be trustin Justin on this and all matters.  Why think about it?  Justin has done that for us.  Just Trust Justin! All hail the Justin! He made the case!

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By Justin Case, March 30, 2012 at 8:12 am Link to this comment

http://www.mail-archive.com/cypherpunks@minder.net/msg42610.html - Black Bloc non-violence & unarresting - 20 Mar 2003

2008 Unarrest in action http://rnc08report.org/archive/263.shtml

This is no cancer - this is the immune system. The police are the cancer. They can choose to act lawfully & without chemical weapons. Chemical weapons are over the line & necessitate physical action, more than any speaking can do, just to stay safe & to continue protesting.

Standing against this by calling the Black Bloc a cancer serves only the bankster mafia masters in killing and enslaving us all.

I’m sure Chris Hedges doesn’t want that but rather than really tell people they need to question their virtues & do some self-reflection, I suspect his style of writing is to kick the hornet’s nest & see what happens.

Not that I put that down - that actually can be very effective for forcing self-reconciliation of personal & collective problems in mentality. It also can forge together the working virtues to continue to strive forward.

Collective & individual vandalism upon cars & businesses serves no purpose. Bank of America is a mafia operation, clearly proven thousands of times now - it steals & is not a business. I would not have defended Al Capone if other citizens wanted him out of their neighborhoods because of his violence & stealing, I will not defend Bank of America either & no one else ought to.

JP Morgan Chase, Bank of America, Citibank, all guilty of fraud & theft, all costing people their lives, all bribing police to promote severe unlawful beatings, unlawful kidnappings & unlawful arrests. It flat out ISN’T LAWFUL for police to direct people into roadways (Brooklyn Bridge) then arrest them for being there - the police can lawfully direct people for their safety to any part of the sidewalk or roadway & bear full legal responsibility for the people. Resisting unlawful arrest in such a situation (didn’t happen) is 100% lawful & I highly recommend it.

EVERYTHING That fights the corruption of the police-state is the cure, not the cancer.

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By Justin Case, March 28, 2012 at 12:14 am Link to this comment

“I only came after you in an attempt to break through the cement wall into that chamber, where you keep your all pontifical pronouncemnts and your armory of slings and arrows”

There is no such chamber. I look at the world around me & connect the points. You’re one of them, and on the other side are the proofs that what you’ve claimed are wrong. I connected them. Anyone else could have. Maybe one day you’ll be willing to connect the data-points without me in the middle. Without any doubt the world is MORE than willing to do it for you, especially at your inconvenience. It’s only a matter of time.

I need not have said a word but for the sake of others reading I felt it would be helpful.
If fewer people will read from here on then the impetus to continue is diminished.

“But you frame all your ideas in language that would have given Moses pause when the Almighty presented him with the ten commandments.”
Not religious. Has no personal meaning to me.

“You often refer to some entity called “we” in an attempt to make it seem that there are others who share your opinions…”
There are. On finance virtually everyone agrees with me who knows that paper is not money. On freedom virtually everyone agrees with me except those who LIKE government to hurt / rob Peter to pay Paul ... because it’s Paul giving that opinion.

EVERYONE agrees with what I’ve had to say that’s about math or science ... except people who dismiss math & science.

“but I think it’s worth considering, is to take a deep breath and ask yourself if what you have to say might not be more palatable if it was presented with a dab of hummility”
NO.

I HATE Being palatable. It’s opposite to what’s useful. If you can’t tolerate the taste of reality as it is then you need more sugarcoating than is EVER going to be available.

If you were younger the best reply would be “this is the real world, son, and you best learn it’s the school of hard knocks”
but of course I’m very sure you’re the elder so that doesn’t quite work. You ought to know.
There’s a time to be polite & palatable.
I think I can be both polite AND allow people to see there’s an ugly throat-eating world out there that can ONLY be defended against if you don’t sugarcoat the truth.

“You certainly don’t win over an opponent by calling him/her a fraud, liar or pied piper for the devil”
Yes, I do in fact. I win OVER the opponent, not to win that person’s will or mind, but to win the minds of everyone else. That person who is the fraud HAS NO PURPOSE. I have zero benefit from “convincing” John Best in his fraud. He KNOWS better. I care not a whit for what he has to say or believe. Ever. I care only what OTHERS will read and conclude ABOUT HIM & his fraudulent claims. The moment I stop repeating the proofs of his fraud is the moment I believe no one else will be reading it. I care not at all if he reads it.

“And civilized folks who see you doing that will not bother to investigate your ideas because of it.”
Wrong. Only ignorant folks will refuse to search. It has nothing to do with being civilized, Ed.

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By Justin Case, March 28, 2012 at 12:06 am Link to this comment

“So, you’re finally backing off the energy solution of mining landfills/TDP great”
NO I am not, John, and that’s why I must keep at this. Not giving you a chance to mislead anyone in my absence.

Your constant fraud, John, can not be tolerated.
Mining landfills for energy & for conserving food-growing land is the single most important thing for ALL civilization.

There is no entropy problem: the biomass & needed aluminum, nickel, silver & copper in landfills FAR exceeds any losses from super large scale thermal depolymerization methods. The thermal & kinetic cost of getting the same energy & materials ELSEWHERE is far, far more expensive. Mining has huge energy inputs, moves a lot of rocks around we have NO use for & sometimes you don’t even find what you’re looking for.
The energy & copper, silver & carbon are THERE in the landfills. No discovery-failures, no lack of energy. The entropy calculation is very very good: you will not at any scale run out of power extracting from landfills. From dozens of factory-size units to single truck-loads you will always have excess energy.

The reason for this is recycling: in the past, which is how we got most of our landfills, NO ONE was recycling.
CURRENTLY if people switch to biomass diversion away from landfills this leaves brand new landfills with little energy to extract as natural gas. This is such a small portion of all landfill that it can be COMPLETELY ignored for now.

“Practically, all the available methane we get comes from old bio-deposits, coal and oil which break down into methane”
You can’t prove that.
Look at all the methane all around the solar system & beyond that has nothing to do with photosynthesis.
Nice theory but I think you ought to back it up with some facts.

Keep in mind that despite your bitter attacks on me, on that claim I’m not calling you a fraud. Just saying you aren’t proving your point but you could try harder.

“turn methane or natural gas) into electricity, it is not a huge solution.  A niche product at best.  Tapping into the natural gas supply with local bloom boxes may decentralize electricity distribution, but you still have to distribute natural gas”

Worrying about how that might be difficult is like worrying how we might get sunshine tomorrow morning. The gas is plentiful as are the pipe materials & no one’s burying them so deep we can’t reach them. It’s not a problem by any measure.

“The more fundamental technology than the bloom box is bio-reactors (or other technologies) which allow sunlight to be converted to potential energy”
No, that’s the niche application. The total solar input available on land is too small to be sustainable for our current levels of populations. Unless we convert more to food AND retain more land for food-growing AND reduce the population DRAMATICALLY… that won’t work. I’m talking minus 3 billion planet-wide.

“if hastily and widely deployed might be counterproductive and merely enrich the exact same oil infrastructure which controls the economy at present”
That actually isn’t any kind of problem as far as I’m concerned.
The only problem with the oil industry is how close it is to the WAR industry. Divorce those powers & I think it will be just fine. Without government / mafia force, no one will be murdered for oil fields, no new wars will exist for stealing oil, mass poisoning of farm lands & fishing areas will end because no army will get guns to kill the locals who fight back.

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By Ed Romano, March 26, 2012 at 7:21 am Link to this comment

Justin, I never wanted to be the a member of the language police.In fact, I find those snobs somewhat detestable. I only came after you in an attempt to break through the cement wall into that chamber, where you keep your all pontifical pronouncemnts and your armory of slings and arrows, ....I came after you in an attempt to break through that seeming impenetrable wall… and help you realize that every little aberation that flits your head is not bestowed on you from above. It’s not so much that everything you say is bizarre. Some of it actually makes sense…almost. But you frame all your ideas in language that would have given Moses pause when the Almighty presented him with the ten commandments. You often refer to some entity called “we” in an attempt to make it seem that there are others who share your opinions….or say that “everybody knows” what it is your trying to convey….My advice, and it my not be worth much, but I think it’s worth considering, is to take a deep breath and ask yourself if what you have to say might not be more palatable if it was presented with a dab of hummility and not as a dictate from on high…. You certainly don’t win over an opponent by calling him/her a fraud, liar or pied piper for the devil. And civilized folks who see you doing that will not bother to investigate your ideas because of it. Who am I to be giving you advice? You have a right to ask. But try to look beyond who it is that’s saying this. For your own sake…ask if the advice is something that would elevate you and your ideas to a point where people might actually begin to pay attention.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, March 26, 2012 at 5:11 am Link to this comment

So, you’re finally backing off the energy solution of mining landfills/TDP great.  AS I said, there may be niche applications, but the entropy and economics are not there for a large-scale, long term solution.  It is similar to the ethanol scam.

“Methane is a product of photosynthesis”  Practically, all the available methane we get comes from old bio-deposits, coal and oil which break down into methane.  You are correct, though misleading in saying it might exist without photosynthesis, and I conceed it probably does, however, the matter at hand concerns methane we can use, so I will restate:  “Practically all the methane available to mankind is the product of photosynthesis”.

I also concede that the bloom box is a fuel cell, not a ‘battery’, that is, it is indeed a conversion device, not a storage device.  My bad, I’d seen the bloom box years ago, and catagorized it as a nice building block.  HOWEVER; if it does reliably (for years of use) and economically (eco-friendly and inexpensive manufacturing) turn methane or natural gas) into electricity, it is not a huge solution.  A niche product at best.  Tapping into the natural gas supply with local bloom boxes may decentralize electricity distribution, but you still have to distribute natural gas. 


The more fundamental technology than the bloom box is bio-reactors (or other technologies) which allow sunlight to be converted to potential energy.  Methane is potential energy, bloom boxes release it, and so would a methane powered turbine/generator. 

Without the sunlight-to-methane technologies readily available and locally manufactureable and sustainable, technologies such as the bloom box make it easier to use fossil-fuel based natural gas will help us deplete the supply faster.

That is, it is entierly possible that a device like a bloom box, if hastily and widely deployed might be counterproductive and merely enrich the exact same oil infrastructure which controls the economy at present.  Serious questions need answered before something like the bloom box can be held up as a magic bullet.  For instance, what chain of interrelated technologies go into it’s manufacturing, and what by-products are produced?  How long will it last?  etc. 

As for your imagined speculation as to my motives, and attempted character assassination by innuendo, this amounts to an ad hominem attack.

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By Justin Case, March 25, 2012 at 9:40 pm Link to this comment

We all know there’s nothing I wrote that’s “rabid”. Everyone can see I simply point out the facts, which now include the John Best fraud-attempt using both a psychopathic deference & perhaps a financial incentive not yet fully revealed. The nature of the constant attack on useful solutions for people has gone far beyond some personal grudge & certainly ignores clear proven science anyone can check on.

The Bloom Box is not a storage device of any sort. I never made the claim. So now will you pretend that you can’t read, or will you pretend that your interpretation is to be held as fact?

I advocate nothing special about thermal depolymerization: it’s useful for various reasons & the cost of us NOT using it means we have less energy available and more landfills, both of which appear to be damaging to us.

“Methane is a product of photosynthesis”
NO it is not. Methane has existed since far before photosynthesis existed and continues to exist in environments that so far appear to have never had life.

“The bloom box stored energy, then releases it.”
Fraud? Misreading? Absolutely opposite of the facts.

The Bloom box is a CHEMICAL CONVERSION device receiving natural gas and releasing electricity. Right off the bat it’s been delivered with a wireless transmission induction system so no electrical grid is needed to use the power converted from the natural gas source.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/18/60minutes/main6221135.shtml
The way you make things up, John, is disgraceful.

I understand if some readers think I belabor the point too much about your fraud but you write 100% lies and apparently the only 2 conclusions possible is that you can read and you are a prolific liar, or…
that you can’t read.

Which of these conclusions is logical? One of these conclusions MUST be true. You’ve simply painted yourself into too tight of a corner to get out of this one, John.

Ed: ““emigrate”, not immigrate. A person cannot immigrate into an area they already occupy”
the only policies that exist in law are “immigration policies” and that’s what I referred to. A person can “immigrate into” a new area.
Look, Ed, if you’re already resorting to spelling-police & grammar-police because you want so badly to attack me on anything, any scrap at all, you ought to look yourself in the mirror & ask yourself what you’re all about.

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By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, March 24, 2012 at 8:15 pm Link to this comment

Most of your post is Ad Hominem. 

Methane is a product of photosynthesis.  So is coal, and oil.  Since the sun is a nuclear ‘source’.  The bloom box stored energy, then releases it.  The energy going in had better come from a renewable source, or the long term problems will remain.  The bloom box I assume works well, since it is deployed, but as a storage device it may indeed be a good buffer, like a battery, or a flywheel, to smooth demand.

You advocate TDP as some ‘energy of the future, right?  Well, it is in fact untrue that TDP (Thermal DePolymerization) can be practical for individuals
whether or not the government or a corporation
provides the power required to run the process.  Suppose the power were ‘free’....as multitudes start TDPing, eventually the supply of suitable plastics (which are made from oil) would dry up.

We as a species have a few years to get on a sustainable energy footing.  Wasting time with partially thought through or misapplied processes like TDP waste time and resources from better pursuits.

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By Ed Romano, March 24, 2012 at 9:40 am Link to this comment

Justin, Regarding the post that preceded your rabid attack on John…the word you were looking for was “emigrate”, not immigrate. A person cannot immigrate into an area they already occupy, except perhaps in your world….In your scurrilous attack on John you called him a “hoax”. A person can perpetrate a hoax, but they cannot BE one…again, except perhaps in your world.

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By Justin Case, March 23, 2012 at 10:26 pm Link to this comment

John, you are a hoax, a fraud, a psychopath, a dangerous operative acting to cause people to submit to corporate slavery.
The technology I speak of is something so powerful any SINGLE person could make and use it with NO corporate control and NO government control of ANY SORT.
Your lies can not defeat the real truth: John, you work for THEM, the corporations. You want everyone to stop all solutions and OBEY THEIR MASTERS. You are the enemy.
It’s very clear now.
Obey. Obey. Obey. Obey all the Masters who tell you how you MUST accept ONLY the on-grid money and on-grid energy must be paid for and accepted. Forever.

We are not all so foolish, you dangerous psychopath.

“And the bloombox is a fancy battery at best, not a ‘source’.  Noting, the sun and nuclear are the only sources,”

Methane is NOT sourced from the sun. Nuclear materials are sourced from the heavy-element production of a supernova but we don’t get any refills. The bloombox is a GRID replacement. The natural gas it uses has no shortage whatsoever.
Even if every human used natural gas forever after we CAN NOT deplete it all - not with REAL use as opposed to burning it into the air for no purpose & not caring.
Thanks to the 100% rock solid science of thermal depolymerization AND harvesting it from biomass, we simply can not run out. Ever.

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By Justin Case, March 23, 2012 at 10:18 pm Link to this comment

http://youtu.be/e8rT76vNmxc
when capitalism is removed you MUST:
#1 lose all food except the meals the state or fuedal lord says you may have
#2 lose all property but live in a box allocated by your state or feudal warlord
#3 go to prison for life if you disobey
#4 you can never immigrate

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By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, March 23, 2012 at 11:23 am Link to this comment

no time for this fun BS…..but EVERYBODY!!!  ANTENNAE UP!  This TDP scam may be coming your way.    They have pilot plants.  They have tapped into taxpayer funded revenue streams.  They will find the valves (corrupt politicians) and pry them open.

In the latest on-going saga, a guy named ‘Justin Case’ fights toot and nail for a miracle technology (apologies for the sarcasm) called Thermal DePolymerization.

I ask, “I’m curious how you imagine I’m getting personal benefit from supposedly misleading others?  Do tell?”

Justion replies, “at the very minimum I think you enjoy seeing others misled, others suffering.
Given your determination I am willing to question if you actually have a financial incentive.”

I reply to the reply, “but couldn’t I use that argument as well?”  My question stands. 

And I will state my ‘benefit’, as I have indeed realized why I’m carrying on this idiotic ‘conversation’.  Because at some point thick-headed me realized something like that ethanol scam could happen again at any time.  There is HUGE money to be made by ‘the traditional players’.  A landfill mining/TDP (love that buzzword, Thermal DePolymerization sounds like our salvation) could be a massive energy shell game fueled by the US government, that is, taxpayer money intended for schools, medical care, social security, defense and the like. 

Now on to some of your very poor ‘arguments’...

Your landmark reference article http://discovermagazine.com/2006/apr/anything-oil has nothing on the quantifications and calculations necessary to evaluate the landfill mining you advocate.  It doesn’t even go into economics of the turkey pant, except for the $4 per barrel profit due to subsidies.  In fact, it has some fairly telling references at the end to basic problems with even that plant where the input materials are nicely concentrated.

You dismiss out-of-hand economic and environmental arguments which require more than a reference to an superficial and largely inapplicable article. 

With ethanol, it got to the point of nationwide deployment and integration into the food economy and energy economy.  My statement that we had an inadequate BS meter way back when it would have done some good stands.  Many of us were asking the right questions at that time and were poo-pooed by politicians armed with junk science, a political agenda, and the smell of money to be made at public’s expense.  The ethanol scam is exactly, exactly the same scam as the ‘TDP’ scam.  Even the science sounding name and acronym help sell the scam.

Conflating your ‘plastics from plants’ example is actually the same tactic of which you falsely accuse me.  You say “The key failure is that processing complexity required more energy & material inputs than just getting plastic from oil.”  This is exactly the argument I am making.  But actually, you can get ‘plastic like’ stuff from plants.  There is research going along nicely which produces a thick bio-product sort of a wood/plastic from the a new breakdown process of lignin.  I think the PI’s name is Brown?  There is some damn good science going on out there…....the last thing we need is to desperately grab ‘pseudo-science’ then run full speed ahead and misapply it.  Pseudo-science is doomed to fail, and it makes science look bad. 

The problem, Foucauldian, is not science itself, it’s the desperate and illogical, political ways science is applied. 

By the way, all real engineers have extensive math, physics, and a little from many very tough disciplines before going into their particular area of specialization. 

And the bloombox is a fancy battery at best, not a ‘source’.  Noting, the sun and nuclear are the only sources, really everything is a way to store energy from one of these sources.  Oh, it may be a very, very useful storage technology, but it is not truly big-picture stuff.  A nice building block.

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By Justin Case, March 23, 2012 at 10:11 am Link to this comment

“I hate to tell you, but you can bullshit engineers, too. ” - Anarcissie
Outside their field, perhaps. Any human can have faults but it’s up to each person to seek expertise that is not their own & to work together.
I don’t expect the kind of engineer who builds bridges or skyscrapers to also be an expert chemical engineer for biopolymers, right? Right.

“if only to offset our exorbitant faith in science which is so emblematic of our day and age.”
indeed Foucauldian, NO FAITH BELONGS IN SCIENCE.
Everything needs to be proven, many times over & any time the proof fails a deep investigation MUST happen or we are not adhering to the scientific method.

For example, someone tried to make plastic from plants. It was a clever idea. It failed.
The key failure is that processing complexity required more energy & material inputs than just getting plastic from oil. The plants were genetically engineered to literally grow plastic polymers. However, without full processing, this was merely a scientific curiosity. Perhaps similar is the attempt to get spider-silk from goat-milk using genetic engineering. It’s not an energy benefit being sought there, however. Spider silk is more than 1000x stronger than steel per radial cross-section so if we can actually get a huge amount of it, the potential to build powerful tension structures & armor is…. amazing. IF we can do it. So far ... BUBKISS. Hey, shit happens but I can’t blame them for trying.

“But, yes, a balance is desirable.  Given the ethanol scam, it demonstrates a lack of BS detecting metrology”
Not whatsoever.

Everyone involved KNOWS it’s a scam. NO one is fooled. It’s a matter of money & politics. Sure, customers at pumps may be fooled for a bit but some have TESTED their fuel efficiency with & without ethanol & found the ethanol has NO benefit. The added cost to corn for food is then a huge burden. The only beneficiary is the farmer OR the futures-broker, depending on market-dynamics at the time.

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By Justin Case, March 23, 2012 at 10:10 am Link to this comment

“I’m curious how you imagine I’m getting personal benefit from supposedly misleading others?  Do tell?”
at the very minimum I think you enjoy seeing others misled, others suffering.
Given your determination I am willing to question if you actually have a financial incentive.

“consider how much energy is required to build the landfill mining and separating machinery and refineries?”
No more than to attempt to clean & remediate the landfills to build over them - which we already do - and no more than to drill for oil or natural gas - which we already do.

“Then, how much energy is required to adequately separate an appropriate range of polymers for depolymerization?  Not to mention the energy of depolymerization itself”
Very little using a trick mentioned in the article: pressure. Boil under high pressure, remove water in the follow vacuum chamber.

“provide a link” - IT’S IN THE ARTICLE. http://discovermagazine.com/2006/apr/anything-oil

“Step back and imagine the processing factories and mining equipment to mine landfills.  Sure, you could use the existing bulldozers and such, but you have to transport the stuff to some rather expensive separation and processing site.  “
Never. It can all be done on site. All of it.

“In this case, the entropy isn’t there for anything other than a curiosity.  “
And the article proves you wrong. The energy IS there just from natural gas. In case you hadn’t noticed, people are pumping methane off-gassing from landfills on its own for energy extraction but leaving behind the oil & metals while just generating power from burning the methane. Thanks to the bloombox we can get more out of the gas. Thanks to the thermal depolymerization units we can actually get oil & other materials out. It’s less energy extracting already processed steel, carbon, copper, silver from landfill like this than mining for more using discoovery methods. Those discovery methods are heuristic, meaning often you come up with nothing after doing all the digging. With landfills we are ASSURED the goods are in there.

This is one of the best energy policies possible on all the Earth, saving energy at every stage.

“In each case they get their incoming material stream from a pre-concentrated source, a tire collection center, a sewage plant, and a turkey processing plant.  “
You KNOW this is not a scam. EVERY Landfill is a pre-concentrated source, that’s why it’s worth digging.

Conflating your ethanol argument is a fraud. I’ll make it clear: you know it’s a fraud and you lie deliberately.
Ethanol has NOTHING To do with this topic. Not one molecule.
The issue is 100% separate.
Those producing methanol fuel engines & diesel fuel engines already pointed out the lack of efficiency for ethanol fuel before it was ever subsidized. The farming subsidy is a politics game with Mexico.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, March 23, 2012 at 8:45 am Link to this comment

Kat, yes, seepage removal to avoid further groundwater contamination.  No more than that.  Expending fossil fuels to remove the solid (more stable) wastes would take effort from building more renewable sources that actually make sense.

Ana, yes, you can bullshit engineers, but not in certain critical areas which pertain to our technological dependency.  But, yes, a balance is desirable.  Given the ethanol scam, it demonstrates a lack of BS detecting metrology.

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By Foucauldian, March 23, 2012 at 8:35 am Link to this comment

I don’t know whether I should take that as a
compliment, JD, that’s about the size of it:  behavior
does affect physiology, especially if it’s willful.

As to it being commonplace, I have no doubt, but it
still needs reiterating now and then, if only to
offset our exorbitant faith in science which is so
emblematic of our day and age.

Man still is the measure of all things.

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By Anarcissie, March 23, 2012 at 8:04 am Link to this comment

I hate to tell you, but you can bullshit engineers, too.

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By katsteevns, March 23, 2012 at 7:49 am Link to this comment

I agree that the garbage we have dumped into the ground so far is going to have to be dealt with at some point in the future….if there is one.

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By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, March 23, 2012 at 7:47 am Link to this comment

What is the saying about those who do not learn from history?

Great big-picture view of ethanol scam:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-ethanol-scam-20110323

It’s more than the two scams (TDP (thermal depolymerization)  and ethanol) having the entropy and economic warning signs.  The mechanisms for a mob-politician-trucking-building web of corruption are perfect matches.  It would indeed be a fantastic way for corrupt interests to build a pipeline into public coffers.  Basically, just scale up the hidden energy scam you see in the japanese video.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-Lg_kvLaAM

Bravo.  Clever and gutsy.  Get some seed money, some respectable looking but phoney investors, find a couple politicians to push it through the system, claim you’ll provide jobs, and away you go!  Damn, you could do a pump-and-dump with the stock to boot!  Think of all the ‘rich liberals’, the eco-crowd yo could scam into investing.  Just listen to how soothing and nice the Japanese man is in the video above! 

Look to what they do in China.  In China all but one of the nine members of the Politburo Standing Committee are engineers.  No bullshitting there as you can with all the lawyers in the US congress and state-houses.

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By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, March 23, 2012 at 5:56 am Link to this comment

Promo video for TDP (thermal depolymerization) scamsters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtS6K43np9o

In each case they get their incoming material stream from a pre-concentrated source, a tire collection center, a sewage plant, and a turkey processing plant.  This is nothing new, and it is environmentally sound to extract useable materials from these potential waste streams.  (Except in the case of ‘pink slime’. 

What is different than the ‘landfill mining’ implication is that the waste streams are already concentrated.  God help us if some politician is duped into having the public pay for landfill mining and separation so these scamsters can have a source of raw materials at the publics expense. 

Similar thing happened to food and gas prices because of the ethanol scam.

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By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, March 23, 2012 at 5:43 am Link to this comment

I’m curious how you imagine I’m getting personal benefit from supposedly misleading others?  Do tell?

But back to your landfill mining operation…..consider how much energy is required to build the landfill mining and separating machinery and refineries?  Then, how much energy is required to adequately separate an appropriate range of polymers for depolymerization?  Not to mention the energy of depolymerization itself.

You say this is all calculated, fine, please provide a link and I will review the quality of the calculations. 

That vision of building an expensive infrastructure to mine garbage is mining a limited resource!  It’s non-renewable if we start making less garbage.  The same investment, made in wind, solar, and other renewable technologies speaks for itself. 

Step back and imagine the processing factories and mining equipment to mine landfills.  Sure, you could use the existing bulldozers and such, but you have to transport the stuff to some rather expensive separation and processing site. 

Hey, this ‘idiot’ didn’t say thermal depolymerization doesn’t work.  I said specifically anything can be converted to another chemical form with the right amount of energy   In this case, the entropy isn’t there for anything other than a curiosity.  It’s not part of a large scale energy pursuit, and would detract from real policies if we go too far down that road.

Look again at how we wend down the ethanol path.  Look at ALL the pieces of the puzzle.

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By Justin Case, March 22, 2012 at 9:45 pm Link to this comment

If I didn’t know better I’d be shocked at the severe allergy John has to the truth. Of course I do know better. The person knows what lies are being told yet continues to do so for the purpose of misleading others & getting personal benefit from the result.

Mining landfills is the single most important thing possible for all human-kind. Unless you want your food always poisoned, your water always poisoned & having nowhere further to expand farmland or living-space, you must empty the landfills. This is not a choice. It’s suicide not to do it.

“Get people to de-privatize the electric grid and pass strong laws to assist small electricity generators to get online and sell back to the grid”
No, this is highly wasteful.
The more efficient path is fuel-cells & home-made batteries as well as smaller overlapping grids of gas-to-electric distribution such as using the Bloom Box & wireless power transmission via induction. Definitely more than 3x as efficient for transmission & cost reductions while adding robustness to the grids instead of having ONE central grid (always a bad idea).

“and I don’t believe the calculations are in place.”
They are. Search terms “thermal depolymerization” and everyone can find it, all calculated.

You, a fraud crackpot psychopath, can not debunk proven science.

“It’s much, much better to sort through the stuff before it goes into the ground. “

IDIOT. IT’S ALREADY IN THE GROUND. This is not a choice. It’s there NOW.

“See?  how can anybody do proper calculations unless they know what the energy density is of the stuff and how much stuff there is with an energy density above oil? “
Already done. Sampling & removing already performed. Go look it up.

“I can imagine what would grow in the soil a the bottom of a landfill.  The stench would be forever.”
IDIOT. THERE WILL BE NONE.
Everything that was ever there, every possibly contaminated, is BURNED. ALL OF IT. Into the machine it goes. Out comes metals, minerals, natural gas, oils. All of it. Not one MOLECULE is left behind that may be contaminated. AND in the future no more landfills need be made. That’s how efficient this is.

“what you consume from the natural-gas energy that’s also in there being used to keep the process going.”  Says who?  Show me the calculations”
I DID.
IT’S IN THE ARTICLE.

In fact for any price of oil more than $22/barrel in 2006-dollars (inflation adjusted for purchasing power is $40/barrel in 2012 dollars) the operations are profitable.

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By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, March 22, 2012 at 6:30 pm Link to this comment

Justin says, “.... you can get more oil energy out of the garbage than what you consume from the natural-gas energy that’s also in there being used to keep the process going.”  Says who?  Show me the calculations. 

Justin says, “The real benefit is that with landfills empty that leaves productive land to live on, grow food with & this removes tons of solid & liquid pollution.” 
I can imagine what would grow in the soil a the bottom of a landfill.  The stench would be forever.  You might want to carefully, very carefully attempt liquid recovery for some neutralization or separation just to keep it out of the ground water, but better to entomb the solid stuff.  ‘Mining’ it would be a natural disaster in itself.  I can imagine running into a pocket of 55 gallon drums of god-knows-what.

See?  how can anybody do proper calculations unless they know what the energy density is of the stuff and how much stuff there is with an energy density above oil?  Neglecting mining and separation costs of course. 

Naw, the whole idea is a fools chase.  It’s much, much better to sort through the stuff before it goes into the ground.  Establish consumer practices that make throw-away planned obsolescence crap illegal.  Force manufacturers to guarantee stuff for a long, long time, and guarantee a supply of replacement parts.  Make packaging and so forth so you can do energy recovery right in the home to avoid transportation losses.  That is, burn the paper in your fireplace/woodstove and spread the ashes on your garden.  Eliminate all metals and toxic dyes from consumer packaging. 

Mining landfills is just doesn’t make sense, and I don’t believe the calculations are in place.  Sounds like another crackpot idea to give people false hope for a magic bullet and their attention diverted from the real issues which prohibit real people/planet oriented solutions.  Yep, the purpose of crackpot ideas like this is to keep a small percentage occupied with false hope while Haliburton fracks away.  It seems like there are hundreds of ideas like this in these ‘infotainment articles’ to, er, uh, keep people info-tained. 

You really want to do something productive?  Get people to de-privatize the electric grid and pass strong laws to assist small electricity generators to get online and sell back to the grid.  Peoples electric car batteries would be an enormous reservoir in which to buffer energy.  And they need paid for what goes in and out of their batteries that isn’t by themselves.  Economy of scale took a back seat to private greed.  We need to start de-centralizing and take control of our electricity infrastructure.

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By Justin Case, March 22, 2012 at 3:20 pm Link to this comment

You can’t ever beat entropy. However, you can get more oil energy out of the garbage than what you consume from the natural-gas energy that’s also in there being used to keep the process going.
Sorry, Kat, but the guy’s continuing to be a fraud so why stop saying it? Wouldn’t that only be validating the guy as if I no longer think he’s a fraud? He is.
The real benefit is that with landfills empty that leaves productive land to live on, grow food with & this removes tons of solid & liquid pollution. Adding energy recovery to this, instead of throwing unprocessed energy into the ground and with poison, is a smart move.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, March 22, 2012 at 7:51 am Link to this comment

Just examine the entropy of the particular situation.  There is no reason to lie.  The real truth is that false hopes distract human energies from more worthwhile endeavors.  There are sensible technologies ones out there, and more to be invented, but in these two? The entropy is wrong for anybody to to pin hopes on.

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By katsteevns, March 22, 2012 at 6:53 am Link to this comment

“Nobody says you can’t get oil from plastic,”

What?!? I was under the impression that plastic was a byproduct of oil, as is most of our carpeting.

Justin, I think you have called him a liar and a fraud enough times. You sound a little like a bible thumper.

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By katsteevns, March 22, 2012 at 6:47 am Link to this comment

You two should really go out to a bar some Friday night and get totally wasted. I have a feeling you will be friends by Sunday morning.

Don’t forget to invite me along when you do. smile

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By Justin Case, March 22, 2012 at 6:28 am Link to this comment

FULL of facts.
EVERY kind of garbage is processed, not just turkey carcasses. Your misleading lies are stomped.
Everything in every landfill can be processed and is processed into metals, oils & natural gas.
You just want to discourage people from reading all the article AND full references inside of it.
Shame on you John.
Liar and fraud.
This is 100% proven science, the truth of all truth, core of all facts.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, March 22, 2012 at 5:18 am Link to this comment

The Discover article refers to turkey carcases, a good-old fashioned rendering plant. 

Nobody says you can’t get oil from plastic, or from any organic material, it’s a matter of economics.  Energy in = Energy out + Waste.  The problem is there are people who point to various novel processes as the solution to our energy problems.  Meanwhile the general public is mesmerized into either lethargy or mis-directed activity.

Good science and engineering in context should contain references to actual percentages for this energy balance (Energy in = Energy out + Waste) issue.  Also, specifics about the composition and percentages of all materials in both the input and output streams is required for a convincing argument. 

I am going to have to modify Granddads advice (believe half of what you read and 10% of what you hear) the half of what you read needs downgraded seriously in the age of biased, unedited, non fact checked, superficial, internet based ‘public interest/infotainment’ fluffy articles. 

“Full of ‘facts’”, so that’s what passes for facts.

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By Justin Case, March 21, 2012 at 8:14 pm Link to this comment

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/presenting-american-sweatshop-infographic-online-retail-warehouse-temp-job
The bright future of economic recovery - as long as you’re the best-paid slave just shut up.
Hm.
Doesn’t look too good to me.

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By Justin Case, March 21, 2012 at 8:00 pm Link to this comment

Once again I am full of facts, http://discovermagazine.com/2006/apr/anything-oil , and you are filled with lies.
Converting plastic & other garbage into oil is beyond proven science - it’s been used commercially.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, March 21, 2012 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment

Ed, did I ever even imply in any way that you are ‘off your rocker”?  I thought not.

Hey, the plastic-to-oil link posted by Mr. Case is probably a sham.  I saw this a year ago and suspected it was too good to be true, so I double checked with a friend who is a professor of organic chemistry.  He says it’s bogus.

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