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Posted on Apr 4, 2012
AP/Charles Dharapak

Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney.

By Robert Scheer

The Republicans are a sick joke, and their narrow ideological stupidity has left rational voters no choice in the coming presidential election but Barack Obama. With Ron Paul out of it and warmongering hedge fund hustler Mitt Romney the likely Republican nominee, the GOP has defined itself indelibly as the party of moneyed greed and unfettered imperialism.

It is with chilling certainty that one can predict that a single Romney appointee to the Supreme Court would seal the coup of the 1 percent that already is well on its way toward purchasing the nation’s political soul. Romney is the quintessential Citizens United super PAC candidate, a man who has turned avarice into virtue and comes to us now as a once-moderate politician transformed into the ultimate prophet of imperial hubris, blaming everyone from the Chinese to laid-off American workers for our problems. Everyone, that is, except the Wall Street-dominated GOP, which midwifed the Great Recession under George W. Bush and now seeks to blame Obama for the enormous deficit spawned by the party’s wanton behavior.

Without a militarily sophisticated enemy anywhere on the planet, the United States, thanks to the Bush-bloated budget, now spends almost as much on defense as the rest of the world combined. Yet the GOP honchos dare claim they are for small government even as their chosen candidate champs at the bit to go to war with Iran.

They obviously learned nothing from the disasters of Bush the Second, who hijacked the tragedy of 9/11 to launch the most wasteful orgy of military spending in U.S. history in his failed effort to take out an al-Qaida enemy that had no significant military arsenal. That enemy was later eliminated by Obama, whom the Republicans still obstinately refuse to credit for accomplishing what Bush failed to. Can you imagine the explosion of preening self-congratulation that would have resulted if a GOP president had done the deed?

The red-ink deficits that had been stanched under Bill Clinton came to gush uncontrollably because of the swollen military budgets, compounded by the severe costs of the recession that occurred on Bush’s watch.

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But the Republicans refuse to take ownership of the collapse resulting from their longstanding advocacy of radical financial deregulation that led to the derivatives bubble, hundreds of trillions of dollars of toxic junk, now a permanent, nightmarish feature of the world’s economy. Romney, who made his fortune through such financial finagling, even has the effrontery to call for more of the same and blame Obama’s tepid efforts at establishing some sane speed limits for the financial highway as a cause of our ongoing crisis.

So insanely gullible are Republican voters that they buy Mitt’s line that bailing out the auto industry to save the heart of America’s legendary industrial base was an example of big-government waste. Yet to them the almost unimaginable sum spent on the Wall Street bailout represents prudent small-government fiscal responsibility.

The incumbent president has his failings, but compared to Mitt Romney he is a paradigm of considered and compassionate thought. As Obama put it in a speech before a journalism group this week, we are saddled with a national debt “that has grown over the last decade, primarily as a result of two wars, two massive tax cuts, and an unprecedented financial crisis, [and] that will have to be paid down.” But instead of dealing with the causes of that debt, Romney has called for an increase in military spending, continued tax breaks for the rich and reversal of the very limited restraints on corporate greed that Obama managed to get through Congress. He has endorsed the House-passed Paul Ryan budget, which, as Obama noted, even Newt Gingrich once derided as “radical” and an effort at “right-wing social engineering.”

Such radicalism leaves Obama as the “moderate” choice in the coming election, defending centrist programs that Republicans in the past helped originate. Indeed, the big attack on Obama will involve what the Republicans call Obamacare—which was modeled in every important respect on Romneycare, enacted when the GOP candidate was governor of Massachusetts.

The overarching lesson of this primary season is that Romney and the Republicans he seeks to win over are incapable of embracing the very moderation that, particularly in the golden era of Dwight Eisenhower, defined the party. Instead, they are now a reckless force bent on destroying the essential social contract that has been the basis of America’s economic and social progress.

As Obama said Tuesday in addressing the editors and reporters: “... We’re going to have to answer a central question as a nation. ... Can we succeed as a country where a shrinking number of people do exceedingly well, while a growing number struggle to get by? ... This is not just another run-of-the-mill political debate. ... It’s the defining issue of our time.”

Click here to check out Robert Scheer’s book,
“The Great American Stickup: How Reagan Republicans and Clinton Democrats Enriched Wall Street While Mugging Main Street.”


Keep up with Robert Scheer’s latest columns, interviews, tour dates and more at www.truthdig.com/robert_scheer.



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By heterochromatic, April 21, 2012 at 4:44 pm Link to this comment

trying to choose between Angela Davis and Bristol Palin has me paralyzed with
excitement

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By Korky Day, April 21, 2012 at 4:12 pm Link to this comment

In addition to those mentioned despairingly by Ed Romano, the USA also offers the following, for whom you can vote in ranked choice ballots, for fun, at
http://www.demochoice.org/dcballot.php?poll=PaulVP2012 and
http://www.demochoice.org/dcballot.php?poll=RomnVP2012

Al Sharpton (D-NY), Angela Davis (CA), Barbara Lee (D-CA), Bernie Sanders (socialist-VT), Cindy Sheehan (Peace-Freedom-CA), Cynthia McKinney (Green-GA), Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), Gloria Steinem, Jill Stein (Green-MA), Joycelyn Elders (D-AR; surg.-gen.), Julian Bond (D-GA), Kent Mesplay (Green-CA), Lani Guinier (Harvard; MA), Mike Gravel (D-AK), Ralph Nader (CT & DC), Rosa Clemente (Green-NY), Roseanne Barr (Green-HI), Stephen Colbert (NJ), Wesley Clark (D; ret. general), Winona LaDuke (Green or D-MN)

And even more:
Al Franken (D-MN), Amy Carter (D-GA), Andrew Napolitano (NJ), Ann Wright (AR?), Barbara Boxer (D-CA), Barbara Mikulski (D-MD), Bill Richardson (D-NM), Bob McDonnell (R-VA), Bobby Jindal (R-LA), Buddy Roemer (R-LA), Chris Christie (R-NJ), Chuck Baldwin (Constitutionist-FL), Clint Eastwood (CA), Condoleezza Rice (R-AL), Debra Medina (R-TX), Elizabeth Dole (R-NC), Elizabeth Warren (D-MA), Gary Johnson (Libertarian-NM), Harley Mikkelson (Green-MI), Iris Mack (math, ?LA), Jeb Bush (R-FL), Jesse Ventura (Libertarian-MN), Jim DeMint (R-SC), John Thune (R-SD), Julie Newmar (CA), Karen Kwiatkowski (R-VA), Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-TX), Kelly Ayote (R-NH), Kirsten Powers (D-NY), Lisa Murkowski (R-AK), Luis Fortuño (R-PR), Marco Rubio (R-FL), Mary Ruwalt (TX), Maureen Walsh (R-WA), Michaelene Risley (AE-?), Michele Bachmann (R-MN), Mitch Daniels (R-IN), Mitt Romney (R-MA), Newt Gingrich (R-VA), Nikki Haley (R-SC), Olympia Snowe (R-ME), Oprah Winfrey, Paul Ryan (R-WI), Rand Paul (R-KY), Rick Perry (R-TX), Rob Portman (R-OH), Rocky Anderson (D-UT), Roy Innis (Libertarian-NY), Sarah Palin (R-AK), Star Parker (R-CA), Susan Collins (R-ME), Tim Pawlenty (R-MN), Walter E. Williams (VA).

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By Ed Romano, April 21, 2012 at 2:13 pm Link to this comment

Korky day…..Ross Perot. Ron Paul, G.W. Bush, Rick Santorum, Herman Cain, Joe Lieberman, Orrin Hatch….What a country to have prodiced such Giants….hey ?

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By heterochromatic, April 20, 2012 at 9:08 pm Link to this comment

rustified slanging
  ‘most meriting hanging?

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By Korky Day, April 20, 2012 at 8:59 pm Link to this comment

And we should ban comments from TruthDig which include “nother”.

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By Korky Day, April 20, 2012 at 5:00 pm Link to this comment

“heterochromatic” has just exposed my little trick to rile up my readers and get responses.

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By heterochromatic, April 20, 2012 at 3:23 pm Link to this comment

Very impressive. I’m old enough to remember when people didn’t wanna cast a
vote for anybody who might have smoked pot, but now you’ve raised it to a whole
nother level with disqualifying tobacco smokers.

you’re a real breath of hot air.

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By Korky Day, April 20, 2012 at 3:18 pm Link to this comment

The Center for Voting and Democracy promotes many tactics (federal, state, and local) to use until we build up support for federal constitutional amendments.  A Ron Paul presidency would create a better climate for them.  Otherwise I’m sticking with the Greens. 

I hate to support a Christian fundamentalist like Paul, but he’s better than the nicotine addict Obama.  The better Paul does in the primaries, the better chance he has, if he loses the Republican nomination, to bolt to the Americans Elect ballot line.  With that he’ll be another, but more successful, Ross Perot.

CVD at http://www.fairvote.org .

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By Korky Day, April 20, 2012 at 3:06 pm Link to this comment

Until we de-throne the disastrous Duopoly, how can we trouble it the most?  Vote Ron Paul in the primaries because he has the greatest chance now for stirring the pot.  (I wish that my Green Party had a better chance.) 

Though Paul has stupid capitalist, anti-abortion ideas, he’d refuse the bribes and cause people to question the 2-party system.  He might even know about pro-rep and instant run-off.

Then in November we could have a leading contender (Ron Paul) who’s honest, brave, and peaceful, and who would make the following elections more democratic.  Barack Obama and Mitt Romney aren’t and wouldn’t.

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By heterochromatic, April 20, 2012 at 2:43 pm Link to this comment

Korker—- feel free to update the US Constitution and take your effort someplace
where it might attract the just consent of some people looking for a new societal
blueprint.

check in with Thomas Mountain and try Eritrea

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By Korky Day, April 20, 2012 at 2:35 pm Link to this comment

Leefeeler is right to oppose the bribery lobbyists and duoploy debates.  Let’s keep clear, though, which causes which.  The 2-party system caused those.  And the out-dated Constitution caused the 2-party system.  And Barack Obama is the constitutional scholar.

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By Leefeller, April 20, 2012 at 7:53 am Link to this comment

Hetro, seems right after thinking on it, the candidates like Romney have never addressed anything except manufactured crap and if they where asked a real question on any issue of real concern they would deviate to their pet peeve or dog.  I just do not see the Obama doing the same, Obama seems to be able to communicate with real people, hell he even talked to the moron Joe the Plumber, who apparently slithered out from under a rock to do his Beberbart catch you routine.

I watched Romney on TV the other day, he was sitting as the head of pick-nit-wit table with several hand selected Republicans who seemed to be mostly teachers and were really addressing their personal concerns and worries as Romney sat there looking like one of those annoying dogs with the springy heads people used to put in the back window of their cars, the only response from Romney was….  ‘uhm hum and ahh hah!’

The Teachers where saying ‘We are loosing our livelihoods and the sky is falling, schools are loosing funds for art and my wife thinks your are an idiot.’ 

Romney’s glazed over reply with a Head node coupled with a Romney look of presidential concern, replied; ‘uhm hum and ahh hah!’

At least Obama appears to listen with concern and address’s people without a glazed look over in his eye.

It just seems to me, unless OWS or something like another Pooroah pops into the mix, I probably will still vote for the best of the two,..... damn give me a viable or potential third choice who makes sense and I may consider or just improvidently give me my Tequila!

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By heterochromatic, April 20, 2012 at 7:12 am Link to this comment

Lee——-Maybe it should be that third party candidates should be in the debates,
so they can call attention to potential grievances not even addressed?—-

——

that’s almost always a good idea, as long as the 3P candidate has some kinda of
significant support… and the catch is determined what the threshold is for
“significant”.

Ross Perot was included in debates, while Louis Abolafia was not.

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By Leefeller, April 20, 2012 at 6:35 am Link to this comment

Pro Rep seems like a good idea and it seems most of us here think the elephant and the Donkey in the room stink, right now for me one stinks much worse then the other.  I suspect most of us see the blatant disinfranchisment, coupled with a few other buggering facts shoved down the peoples throats.

I still see the major need to ban lobbiests running the halls of congress like cockroaches at a tea bag fest and now with super paks getting the money out more now then before.

Partisan politics seems to feed on itself and does seem a real problem.  The fact Obama did not have anyone challenge him, seems to me part of the problem, like Ron Paul did to get his myopic message out, at least to address the options which are bothering our nation. 

Maybe it should be that third party candidates should be in the debates, so they can call attention to potential grievances not even addressed? On the other hand Obama seems to make mention of lobbiests and money in politicos, but nothing about the wars.

Its like the aggressive attacking BS by the Tea Bag/ Republicans sets the tone and the nation is guided down the path. Also I am a believer in the concept there is much apathy, ignorance and prejudice which feeds off the hyper promoted crap, ignoring the real stuff. Me the broken record.

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By Korky Day, April 19, 2012 at 9:18 pm Link to this comment

If everybody already admits the genocide of indigenes, where are the reparations and restitution and treaty honoring and new treaties?

Proportional representation (pro-rep) systems include STV (Ireland, Malta), MMP (Germany), unitary (Netherlands, Israel), etc.  Not just 2 countries, but most countries in the world use some form of pro-rep.  Australia uses it only for their senate.  The UK uses different forms of it for their 3 regional assemblies.
Even random selection of representatives (ancient Greece) could be considered pro-rep, since chance almost always produces proportionality.

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By heterochromatic, April 19, 2012 at 8:42 pm Link to this comment

Korker—- Franklin wasn’t a primary author of the
Constitution and took a rather low-key role at the
convention.

Beside the Jefferson, Madison and his federalist
Paper friends, John Adams was greatly influential and
if you look into his
“A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the
United States”
you’ll find that he lists maybe a dozen sources of
inspiration for the the independent executive and
none of them were Iroquois

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By Shenonymous, April 19, 2012 at 8:08 pm Link to this comment

Since moonraven merely rants and vents and boringly demonstrates
she can use foul language better than I can provides little in the way of
her heritage, a white woman will do it for her…  In a variety of ways,
here is some grist for the racist mill.  There is hardly any more a cover-
up of genocide of Native Americans since it has been advertised up the
wazoo (which is not any river in the US by the way).  And the number of
books on the topic in the US Library of Congress is too many to count,
however googleable if that information is desired.  But it has been the
topic of many grand cinematic subject matter, see
http://ladyhawkesite.tripod.com/nativemovies.htm for a list of
44 movies.

Some succinct words are also here
http://tinyurl.com/bqnp2r8

The Library of Congress uses 900,000 as the total number massacred in
its educational article “Destroying the Native American Cultures” 
http://tinyurl.com/crte6hh

Genocide of Native Americans: Historical Facts and Historiographic
...
a PDF at (no discrete website for the PDF is provided will have
to google this title to get the link.  The google entry is presented this
way:
Genocide of Native Americans: Historical Facts and Historiographic
digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article…historydiss
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
by B Rensink - 2011 - Related articles
Library of Congress Catalog Number: 2010024225. ISBN: 978-1-4128-
1495-9 ... Euro-American and Native American histories and the ways in
which they have ...

Also a short history page at:
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/historydiss/34
From the abstract:
“One of the most sobering themes that underlie North American history
is the demographic collapse that Euro-American contact initiated among
many of the continent’s indigenous peoples.”

Perhaps now we can move past totem poles on to more fruitful
discussion.  Anal insertion of totem poles sounds a disgusting waste
{pun] of totem poles. 

Pro rep is something I find interesting but not viable for the US for
reasons already stated at a national level until such time as the entire
society is changed through local elections.  The system might be started
at the local level for local elections until such time as it is proven to work
then larger levels of government could be promoted.  If you want to
provide ancillary information Korky, you will have to provide referenced
stats or facts or else be thought of as digressive.  There are only two
countries in the world that has a pro rep system.  They are relatively
small in size compared to the US.  I listed them earlier.  If you want to
talk about something hypothetical then give more reasons why it would
be better and a real plan to get it implemented in this country instead of
wishful thinkings.

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By Korky Day, April 19, 2012 at 7:32 pm Link to this comment

The genocidal European invaders of Turtle Island tried (and continue to try) to cover their crimes and continue their crimes AND they copied from the Iroquois constitution.
Just like in Europe the Christians massacred witches AND copied many of their ideas, such as Yule celebrations.
Some of the colonists were working class, like Ben Franklin, and were not as much against the First Nations.  Whites are a mixed bag.
The degree of that influence is debated heavily, says Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois#Influence_on_the_United_States

http://tuscaroras.com/pages/history/about_iroquois_constitution.html

Moonraven, if you haven’t already done so, you might consider a career writing dialogue or satire.  Good combination of truth, anger, and humour.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 19, 2012 at 5:10 pm Link to this comment

Yes Lee, let’s take a minute and think of TAO Walker.  I hope he’s still among the living, but if he has moved on from this life, or just on from these forums, I’m sure he has peace.  I have respect for TAO.  Perfect? Who is, but he wrote in a beautiful way.  And he could ream you, but he had style. 

Well, I guess for every outstanding one like TAO, you have to have a moonraven to make the native Americans just as average as whitey.  There is no superior race, only superior and inferior people.

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By moonraven, April 19, 2012 at 3:35 pm Link to this comment

My people also do not go in for any marking of the ears.

That gringo fashion stuff like tattoos and piercings is considered to be mutilation.

We need some lead time to make your pole, however, since it’s something outside of our specialties (woven ashwood baskets and birchbark canoes, the occasional war club tossed into the mix), so I suggest you start measuring now.

Of course there could be a problem:  By the time the election rolls around and you roll into the booth to spread ‘em one more time and pledge allegiance to the folks that stick it to you, listening to all those campaign promises may have dilated your previously virginal sphincter.

If that’s the case, and the product is too small for the receptor, don’t come crying to us.

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By Leefeller, April 19, 2012 at 3:20 pm Link to this comment

Thanks for the update on totem poles Moonranter, yes I am the raciest pig, some of my best friends have totem poles up their ass, though I do not consider you one of them.

We must deviate from topic, actually Moonie, you seem to have the ear markings of a solipsist, so I really do not exist!

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By moonraven, April 19, 2012 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

My people don’t make totem poles, but if you really want to have one for your post-voting procto exam, I reckon we can carve something up for you.

We’ll need the measurement of that sphincter, though.

Those things are not one size fits all, racist pig.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 19, 2012 at 3:07 pm Link to this comment

“Whereas native folks moved on a number of centuries ago.”

Obviously, the exception for moving on a number od centuries ago, discounts for Moonranter if she is indeed a native folk?

Me thinks someone closed a car door on her head sometime in your life and she blames it on whitey because they made the car.

Where is Tao Walker when you need him, I miss his soliloquies, he said he was an Indian but he did not seem to have a totem pole shoved up his ass!

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By moonraven, April 19, 2012 at 3:06 pm Link to this comment

Oh but there IS:

We don’t do that stuff anymore. Nor do we charge all around the planet like mindless madmen demanding that everybody else do it.  And now. 

But YOU whites not only continue to do all of those atrocities daily , you claim it’s the way the truth and the light and you, personally, PROMOTE it for your employers.

You must be especially proud of those photos in the LA Times of the gringo grunts in Afghanistan holding up mutilated body parts of supposed Talban.

The photos were taken two years ago.

I suppose one of those grunts smiling so broadly for the home cheering section is your kid?

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By heterochromatic, April 19, 2012 at 3:00 pm Link to this comment

just the facts, pendeja…. all those things alleged are verifiable and you’re bigotry
doesn’t make them ahistorical. there’s not a damn thing exceptional about your
alleged ancestors other than the exceptionally shoddy treatment they endured.

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By moonraven, April 19, 2012 at 2:56 pm Link to this comment

And hetero slings the shit with his ad hominems once again.

The only folks I know of right now who are promoting war, slavery, torture and human sacrifice are GRINGOS!!!!!!!!

And you still are doing all of those against native folks, as well as against all other non-whites you can get in your crosshairs whether domestically or abroad.

Whereas native folks moved on a number of centuries ago.

Not you guys—Darwin was wrong—it’s not survival of the fittest, but survival of the most perversely violent.

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By Leefeller, April 19, 2012 at 2:50 pm Link to this comment

It should be known, the Vikings where one of the first civilizations which gave property rights to women in the event of the demising of dear old hubby, it may have something to do with Vikings being gone for long periods of time taking care of business! Viking was considered sort of like recreation to show the younger males the proper way to sow their oats and possibly see the world.

When you look at the attack on women by the conservative knuckle daggers, and the way women are treated in Muslim countries,  it makes one wonder about Darwin’s case for evolution?

Evidently the government of the US is not a government of its word, it seems to the Indians nor the troops after WWI and and I suppose many other things, making promises seems one thing, keeping them seems another?

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By heterochromatic, April 19, 2012 at 2:48 pm Link to this comment

and the “native people” didn’t practice war, slavery, torture and human sacrifice
because they were spiritually perfect.

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By heterochromatic, April 19, 2012 at 2:45 pm Link to this comment

Korker—-the separation of powers owes a hell of a lot more to the writings of
Montesquieu, Blackstone, Coke and Locke than to the Iroquois.


but I would be interested in reading about the strong influence of Iroquois
political organization on the authors of the Constitution if there’s anything
concrete which you can share with us.

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By moonraven, April 19, 2012 at 2:36 pm Link to this comment

I’m afraid that Ben Franklin’s debt to the Iroquois Confederacy is just another white propaganda attempt to cover up the crime of genocide by saying that the gringos were only doing what the natives did.

Nothing that’s really an indigenous model would ever be acknowledged as useful, much less accepted in Gringolandia, as the premise of extermination of native peoples was that they were all evil.

My people were part of the Waban-Aki Confederacy.  We don’t all look or think alike, contrary to white racist dogma.

The point of all indiegnous communities is that they are cooperative in spirit—not every man for himself and the devil take the hindmost.  And, more to the point, that we are cooperative as part of the natural world—not an enemy of that natural world like whites are.

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By Korky Day, April 19, 2012 at 2:27 pm Link to this comment

Maybe moonraven could tell us what she knows of the Iroquois governance system, with its structure for powerful women to promote peace and prosperity.  The USA Constitution borrowed the Iroquois separate-executive feature to modify the British-style parliament.

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By heterochromatic, April 19, 2012 at 2:26 pm Link to this comment

——” I had a smidgen of hope for Barack Obama, as he’s a constitutional scholar. 
But he’s not supported a single constitutional amendment, of which I’m aware.”—


another real Korker…..

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By Leefeller, April 19, 2012 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment

Well John, it looks as if your votes did not count, but the results where what you wanted for what you and the people wanted,... what a coinkydink!

I suppose, surmise or guess tomateo there may or is voter skulduggery happening in various places, Wisconsin which the media called attention to, people should be in jail. Sure corruption does happen, sort of like other things, so not voting and staying ignorant in the name of apathy is the only way to control or prove it? Makes sense to me the only way to make something not happen is to ignore it, great plan folks, sounds so damn Republican partisan to me and a tad mentally empty with one oar in the water, me thinks on the lean side of stupid!

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By Korky Day, April 19, 2012 at 2:15 pm Link to this comment

Write-ins, as suggested by “John Best asks, “What IS Progress”?”, are not legal in all states.  But if you can get enough people to do it, good luck.  Try http://www.pledgebank.com .

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By Korky Day, April 19, 2012 at 2:09 pm Link to this comment

Thanks for your interest, Shenonymous.

I had a smidgen of hope for Barack Obama, as he’s a constitutional scholar.  But he’s not supported a single constitutional amendment, of which I’m aware.  A blatant anti-democrat.  Democrats should support Dennis Kucinich, but never anyone like Obama or the Clintons.

People are more hopeful about voting where it works better, such as Sweden and Switzerland.

I like any pro-rep system (proportional representation) compared to the USA’s pseudo-democracy.

But many pro-rep systems have problems which can be avoided.  For instance, in Greece, the party with the most seats gets a 50-seat bonus, presumably to lessen the chances of forcing a coalition situation.  That bonus makes it much less democratic, though.  Much better to use a separately elected executive to avoid coalition problems, as the USA already does.

South Africa’s pro-rep system would be among the best in the world, except that its rules have been corrupted by those in power, requiring high party fees, if I remember right.

Shenonymous asks, “What are the unique features of a proportional representation that makes it so different from other democratic voting processes?”

There are no “other democratic voting processes” other than
(1)  pro-rep (Cambridge, MA),
(2)  direct democracy (such as Switzerland’s frequent easy referenda and New England’s town meetings), and
(3)  picking representatives at random, as they did in ancient Greece. 

If you can think of any others, please let me know!  The USA is not a democracy of any kind.

Pro-rep’s “unique” feature is fairness, that is, proportionality.  The USA voting system (which is “single-member plurality”, which USA people hardly even know, unlike Shenonymous!) now DISproportionally distributes power.  Your votes are not equal.  Mathematicians and political scientists can do much better than the 2-party system.

Maybe the German system (which the USA more-or-less imposed on post-war Germany) would work best in the USA.  Combined with Swiss referenda.  Combined with taking the money out of elections, and many other blocks to democracy.

I already stated the cure for Israel’s coalition problems:  they would not exist with the USA’s separate executive.

Apologists for USA pseudo-democracy commonly accuse pro-rep of promoting extremism.  This from a country which burdens its college graduates with mountains of debt, kills its poor and middle-class sick people, and causes most of the wars (directly or indirectly)!  There are plenty of technical explanations why extremism is rarely a big problem in pro-rep, but more convincing is the “fruit” of their efforts.  Look at all the pro-rep countries.  On average, way ahead of the USA.  Except in belligerence and atrocities. 

I have written on pro-rep extensively in other threads at TruthDig.

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By moonraven, April 19, 2012 at 1:09 pm Link to this comment

More sobsister whining from the very guy who voted for those congressfolks!

And who will do so again in November.

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, April 19, 2012 at 1:02 pm Link to this comment

Sigh…. if only the members of Congress could be replaced by the members of Anonymous…

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By moonraven, April 19, 2012 at 1:01 pm Link to this comment

Right, John Big Awful Nasty Meanie Moonraven—who royally skewered your whiny white butt for promoting votes for Republicans on this site.

Tea bagger blowhards unite, you’ve nothing to lose and a dose to gain from your posture of spreading ‘em.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 19, 2012 at 12:34 pm Link to this comment

Korky…you must have hit a nerve with the proportional representation discussion…..it brought back Smith and turned up the nasty just a touch on moonraven. 

More on proportional representation.  Hey, what about a campaign for people to turn out to vote, but in every uncontested contest, (and there are more than one would like) simply write in ‘Non-incumbent’.

You know, right before the election, it wouldn’t take much to get a twitter/facebook campaign going to
vote out every damn incumbent and get in a new face, if there are people registered.  But in the abscence of an alternative candidate on the ballot, write-in candidates could be promoted, viraly of course.  For instance, pick a particularly lousy incumbent in or around NYC, and launch a massive twitter/facebook campaign to vote in somebody like Chris Hedges.  It might work.  We’re talking young voters, not yet allied to a particular patriarchy, and probably willing to switch their vote to reach consensus on the particular write-in candidate, just to win.

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By Shenonymous, April 19, 2012 at 12:21 pm Link to this comment

Korky Day – Apr. 19 4:54am – The idea that people, that is the body
politic, of those who vote, the majority do not become involved in
the politics of their local, state, or national governing, including re-
ferendums nor electing politicians.  There has been on this blogsite
for a very long time now, the advocacy of more people direct
involvement in the action of their governments.  Lafayette, John Best,
Leefeller, Anarcissie, myself, and several others have consistently said
the government begins from the bottom up with direct democratic
action most actual at the local level. 

It would be amusing how little traction we have gotten if it wasn’t so
serious.  What you are proposing is in a kind of raw state, but from what
I can gather by implication it is what I would endorse and encourage as
well.  Examples of pro-rep is in effect in New Zealand and Ireland. 
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_system

What are the unique features of a proportional representation that
makes it so different from other democratic voting processes?  As the
WikiP article notes there are different forms of PR.  Which do you
advocate? 

Seems like fragmentation is a possible chaos making complication
and that like Israel, that has 18 parties, as the articles says, “balance of
power falls then into the hands of party leaders with idiosyncratic beliefs,
of fragmenting the “left” or “right” into too many small parties incapable
of campaigning or holding a government together.”  For a country of the
size of and mulitpluralistic as the United States that could be disastrous. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation#Fragmentation

To compare the proportional representation system with the current
American system, which has always had a tradition of single-member
district, winner-take-all elections. The two parties get to be represented
in the legislature in direct proportion to the amount votes they receive. 
In other words, a party that got 25% of the vote in a US election would
not get any representation.  Germany uses a PR system, and if a party
gets 25% of the votes they would also get that percent of seats in the
Parliament.

You seem to argue, Korky, that this system is more fair than the US
system.  It does allow more parties to enter politics, which indeed lets
more people speak in a democratic electoral system.  A large minority
might not be heard in the US system mainly because it could not defeat
either of the major parties. In a PR system, the minority would be heard
in spite of, or rather because of their percentage of the votes.

On the other hand, from what I can gather, a PR system is more liable
to extremism and parties usually focus only on one or two related issues. 
A party might somehow get into the government and can cause a lot of
trouble simply by having strong support on a single issue, but would be
completely ineffectual causing chaos on the entire set of legislation
needing to be considered in any one session.  Parties in PR, unlike the
large two major parties in the US, don’t have enough appeal to a broad
range of people and so they do not encourage compromise. 

I think such a system would cause more gridlock than is thought and
no improvement over what is the problem in the two party system.  I
am interested in what your views are about my understanding of this
because on the face of it it looks like more people representation is a
better system.

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By moonraven, April 19, 2012 at 12:18 pm Link to this comment

Mark, I disagree:  Voters are masochistic, not apathetic.

They go out of their way to stand in line (usually in very inclement weather) to once more offer their butt cheeks up for the reaming.

As for voting in wherever John the white whiner lives—a town hall system would have made more sense that the costly and unrealiable system of voting.  Especially regarding something like building a new school.

No common sense.

A pathological need to suffer pain—probably related by the heavy load of controlled and illegal substances most voters carry around with them.

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By heterochromatic, April 19, 2012 at 12:10 pm Link to this comment

why o why would people vote when they’re faced with a flawed system???????


could be that the alternatives are worse and that most people who live in the
country realize that.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 19, 2012 at 12:04 pm Link to this comment

A couple years back, the school board had been sweet-talked into spending a little over 100 million on a new high school complex.  It would have made instant millions for the developers, but left us with bonds which would have made improving staff benefits damn near impossible without imposing tax increases….and we have a lot of seniors on fixed incomes. 

So what to do?  WE VOTED!  We selectively voted out half the old board.  We got rid of a corrupt county commissioner too…..he was passing county contracts to a friend of his.

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By Mark E. Smith, April 19, 2012 at 11:55 am Link to this comment

Why would people vote in a system that they know is unreliable, unverifiable, “complete garbage?”

Baked Again in Alaska: Yet Another Election Crashes and Burns in The Last Frontier

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=9259

There’s only one possible reason: voters don’t care. Voters are totally apathetic.

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By moonraven, April 19, 2012 at 11:37 am Link to this comment

The point is:  Voting is for suckers!

So long as you continue to vote you will continue to be fucked over.

Apparently you like it.

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By Leefeller, April 19, 2012 at 11:34 am Link to this comment

Checked out Korky’s “Fair Vote” link and wonder who is behind it, paying the bills and pulling the strings and who will attempt to manipulate and mold it into their image?  Lets say I am a skeptics skeptic! Look what happened to the Tea Party. What of OWS, who is manipulating them now?

After all Obama was a fair image when he ran for president last time and many seem disenchanted with him now? Is anything as it seems when it comes to opportunism. I remember in the past the Republicans set up a peoples organization (cannot remember the name, but it was cuddly) which turned out to really be a front for the Republicans to manipulate people within the bogus organization who where not Republicans. 

Sometimes we have a second chance to learn from our experiences but other times it may be too late?

We the 99 percent are hosed royally or not so royally, poverty and ignorance will probably continue to snowball along with disfranchisement, as the accumulation of wealth and power continue to consolidates.

Guess I seem to be the harbinger of a 7th Political Armageddon right now, I know there is always hope, tell it to god who dost not exist and real people dieing of Haiti and the rest of the world!

Right now I have some personal baggage which makes me cynical, well there is always hope and I know hope exists, for I have seen hope in deaths eyes.

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By moonraven, April 19, 2012 at 10:18 am Link to this comment

The two white whiners are sure sore losers.You just keep whining and belting and farting fatuous machismo.

Bet you kick dogs on your way home from the taverns, too-after losing at darts.

You’ll never grow a pair.  If they haven’t dropped by the time you are 5, they ain’t in there.

Phony tea-baggers posting racist hatespeech.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 19, 2012 at 8:28 am Link to this comment

Korky, it’s going to be more than just the math.  ‘pro-rep’ will come on the radar of those who benefit from the duopoly, and those people control 99.9999% of what passes for political discourse in this country.  The transformation of ‘the free press’ into the ‘mass media’ is a factor to be dealt with.  State and local politics (including federal legislature) is still done through local newspapers and radio, not national media or the blog-o-sphere.  It’s not an insurmountable problem by any means, but I suppose there has to be a coordinated national effort and workable tactics to take back local media.  Leefeller is right eluding to the influence of local CofC’s. (Chamber of Commerce)

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By Leefeller, April 19, 2012 at 7:17 am Link to this comment

Well Korky, now your talking! An idea with potential or viability.  People need to be more active in their local politics to even start making any change to begin, to start a dent in the; what I see as corrupt; self serving intrenched templates standing before us.

Sadly to say, I have been focused only on the Pontif and not on the ball, fact is, I have no idea of what is happening with local politics, who is running and even what positions are open, seems I am the 99 percent, while the chamber of commerce is doing its thing.

I suspect this is what happened in all the Red States, partisanship, apathy and very little awareness at local and state levels provided fertile grounds for the ALEC and His Koch Brothers to buy their Walkers of the night at State levels.

How people like Karl Rove and Norquest can manipulate and control events when I did not vote for these ass holes is so annoying, even worse then the rising price of Tequila.  Money and power has always superseded the needs, desires and even best interests of the constituents the real people.

Again Korky, now it seems you have presented a plan an approach which may have potential, this seems a revelation instead of the usual insult, divide and watch how they jump approach, it’s like getting down to business?

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By Korky Day, April 19, 2012 at 5:54 am Link to this comment

Gary Mont, yes, you’re starting to understand proportional representation (pro-rep).
With pro-rep there might or might not be a single party which gains a majority of the seats in an election.  That depends on the popularity of the parties with the voters.  If so, the majority party can pass laws easier.  If not, they need support from other parties to pass a law, as you describe.  The latter is quite common unless the government is very popular for doing a very good job, relatively, such as Franklin Roosevelt. 

If the executive is drawn from the legislature (not the USA!), they need a majority party or a coalition to do so.  The problem with Israel’s otherwise good pro-rep is that they’ve had trouble forming coalitions to form the cabinet.  They need a separate executive like the USA has.

How difficult will it be to institute pro-rep and instant run-off in the USA?  Very.  People get confused by the math, which I haven’t described yet.  Constitutional amendments are hard, and there is no right to put something to a national referendum.  Some of the other countries had it forced upon them by the USA (ironically), such as Germany, Japan, Italy, and Iraq.  Others did so out of an advanced political culture (easier in a small country) or to settle a civil war.  None of those apply to the USA itself right now. 

So learn more about it (http://www.fairvote.org , Wikipedia), share your knowledge, demand media coverage, and join parties which make it an issue (such as Green).  It will probably happen first for a state legislature, possibly through a petition-initiated referendum.  Also city councils, as in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Correct everybody who tells you that the USA is a democracy.  Pro-rep is only one of several democratic criteria that the USA has failed to establish. 

Another needed reform that is easier for the average person to understand is “question period”.  In the USA, that would mean that the cabinet (including the president) must answer surprise, uncensored questions from the whole legislature most days.  Ever since Reagan, USA presidents don’t even have real news conferences.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 19, 2012 at 4:56 am Link to this comment

You are right Korky, sticking to topic is the best tactic. 

Perhaps a strategy to acheive PR is to promote third party control of Congress.  We let ourselves be too mesmerized by the presidential race.  Suppose through some effort Congress were 3/4 third party candidates, just imagine, PR would be a very winnable battle, along with many others. 

So apologies Korky, the discussion ‘Obama by default’ gets us wrapped up in a waste of another election cycle.  That’s how the 1% wins, by just managing to keep us distracted from one election cycle to the next. 

What we need is a much stronger level of local programming which focuses more on individual legislators and how they sell out to special interests.  The centrally controlled media ‘programs’ (to a) national audience, so the presidential race overshadows local congressmen.  Without a strategy into this area, how is congress going to go to enough third party candidates to usher in PR or anything else that’s reasonable?

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By Gary Mont, April 19, 2012 at 1:04 am Link to this comment

Thank you Korki,

So Proportional Representation means that a nation’s political parties share the government of the nation - each party holding a number of “seats” according to the percentage of the popular vote each party receives in an election.

Sort of like having a prime party - who received the lion’s share of the vote and a number of “opposition” parties, directly involved together in the day to day affairs of government, thus preventing the usual Prime Party Do-As-It-Pleases attitude and ending the Uniparty penchant and ability to simply decide to wage a war on some small country without reason, for example, simply by the process of the opposition parties ganging together to out-vote any such proposal by the prime party.

Is this a proper re-wording of your description?

Have I understood it correctly - I reword it in my own words to determine if I have actually understood the words you have offered.

If so, I like it. 

How difficult would it be to deconstruct the current form of non-representative government and replace it with this form of governance? It seems like something that could take place after a public referendum; of some sort, demands it.

How difficult was it for the countries that now have it to install it?

With such a system, all political parties currently in existance and any number of parties as of yet unborn could all particiapte in the governance of a nation.

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By Korky Day, April 18, 2012 at 11:29 pm Link to this comment

Proportional representation (pro-rep) is one of a few systems of voting which produces a proportional result.  That is, if, say, 40% and 10% of the voters in the country as a whole vote for Democrats and Greens respectively, then the House of Representatives is 40% Democratic and 10% Green.  Pro-rep almost completely over-comes the lesser-of-2-evils quandary, the wasted-vote syndrome, and the 2-party system.  All major (and most minor) countries with open elections use it except the USA, the UK, Canada, and India.  Those are the big 4 pseudo-democracies.  13 current wars greatly involve at least one of those 4 countries.  No system is immune from control by narrow interests, but pro-rep countries, you can see, are less susceptible.  Pro-rep Iceland just decided not to bail out their banks.  Semi- pro-rep Greece might bail out the non-rich after the May 6 election.  Poor but pro-rep Brasil has health care for all, though not to the standard of Europe yet.

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By Gary Mont, April 18, 2012 at 10:39 pm Link to this comment

Moon Raving

Move on.

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By Gary Mont, April 18, 2012 at 10:38 pm Link to this comment

Korky wrote: Gary Mont accuses me of tweeting.  I never have.

I’ll take your word for that. It was based on your demand for brevity in an earlier post.

That’s a point in your favor in my opinion.

====

And, no, I don’t believe generally in voting for the lesser of 2 evils.

I vote for a candidate who will enact pro-rep (proportional representation) for Congress, and instant run-off for president, so no one ever again feels forced into voting for the lesser of 2 evils.
If anyone votes for evil now, WHEN will they vote to end the evil quandary, as I do?

OK, please pretend that nobody here knows what “Pro-Rep” means and give me a short description of it and why its a better system. No links please, just a short description in your own words.

Include if possible, any particulars that might prevent a Pro-Rep system from becoming the property of the banks and international mega corporations, as the current system has.

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By heterochromatic, April 18, 2012 at 9:11 pm Link to this comment

kulu——- if you’re at a level where you can’t detect any bias on RT, you probably
really enjoy photos of Putin shirtless in their puff pieces.

http://rt.com/politics/putin-russia-western-media-time-elections-137/


yutz.

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By kulu, April 18, 2012 at 8:46 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller,

Glad you checked out the link to Capital Account etc. You obviously know a bit more about economics than you let on. But I agree you and other thinking people can form their own opinions when exposed to biased media. Many others of course can’t hence the influence of Fox etc on peoples perceptions.

Shenon/hetero,

What inane responses (but not entirely surprising) from the pair of you.

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By heterochromatic, April 18, 2012 at 7:41 pm Link to this comment

Korky, do you dare deny you’re an evil gringo?

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By Korky Day, April 18, 2012 at 7:36 pm Link to this comment

Since none of us can prove who we really are, we should be sticking to the topic!

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 18, 2012 at 7:02 pm Link to this comment

Good points Gary.  I hadn’t thought about the double dipping a poser would get by taking that stance.  The slurs would be interpreted to form an opinion of an ‘obnoxious’, which, when attached to the native American, ironically furthers the white racism moonraven mentions. 

But I don’t think moonraven is a native American at all.  I have never met a native American with so little dignity.

I’ve seen another poster recently who claimed to be a ‘leftie’, who initially gave lip service to some classic ‘leftie’ positions.  Then through some really twisted logic started making all sorts of right-wing ideological points.  A few at first, then as the weeks went on, the real nature of the beast came out.  In the meantime, the initial ‘cover’ allowed all sorts of completely unacceptable opinions to go unchallenged.

We are guilty of allowing those we perceive as allies to get away with a lot of BS.  But I think a ‘tell’ is the dogged persistence. There are several other traits they seem to have in common.  Name calling is high on the list.  Lesser insults, innuendo.  And, complete lack of regard for reason, clumsily disguised, is clear.  It’s almost as if they don’t get paid unless they silence the forum.  When frustrated, bully mode comes out, from there I’ve never seen a retreat to a more civil mode, even though they might be more effective with a civil approach.

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By moonraven, April 18, 2012 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment

Oh, listen to the sobsisters, Jogn and Mont:  Poor little white supremacist boys that can’t even find their way around this site.

They have the audacity to question my ethnicity—but I sure as hell don’t question theirs:  Little white whiners through and through.

Suck it up.

Admit when you’ve been beaten at your own game.

And do what you whites always tell us reds to do:  Move on.

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By heterochromatic, April 18, 2012 at 5:29 pm Link to this comment

Korky—- hearing your opinion as to Paul being not evil like Obama is important
information.

what’s your take on Hugo Chavez’s bald look..does he look as good as Perez
Hilton?

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By Korky Day, April 18, 2012 at 5:23 pm Link to this comment

Ron Paul is deeply flawed, but not evil like Barack Obama and Mitt Romney.
So I encourage people to vote for Paul in the primaries and probably Green Party in November.

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By Korky Day, April 18, 2012 at 5:16 pm Link to this comment

Gary Mont accuses me of tweeting.  I never have.

And, no, I don’t believe generally in voting for the lesser of 2 evils. 

I vote for a candidate who will enact pro-rep (proportional representation) for Congress, and instant run-off for president, so no one ever again feels forced into voting for the lesser of 2 evils.
If anyone votes for evil now, WHEN will they vote to end the evil quandary, as I do?

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By Gary Mont, April 18, 2012 at 4:33 pm Link to this comment

I have to agree John.

Baiting this bear is of limited entertainment value - already used up in fact - as its only response is simple vulgarity, and extremely childish and repetitive insults.

I also suspect that this is not a member of any native american group, since all its actions to date do nothing but invoke disgust - precisely what a poser would do to lower public support for the native american causes it pretends to champion.

In fact, I suspect this poster is nothing more than another lonely and friendless juvenile, doing whatever it takes to get some kind of attention - which is in fact the only thing it has succeeded in doing to date, simply by being continuously obnoxious, disinformative and disruptive.

As moonraven is apparently incapable of posting anything save potty mouth insults and anti-white racial slurs, I see no reason to pay it any more attention than I might pay a child having a tantrum.

And Korky, if you’re here to judge the personalities of posters, rather than offer/receive facts, opinions and communications, then perhaps you should go back to posting Twitter tweets where the comments are all about the me me me me cult of personality and are so brief as to contain almost no other content at all.

Or you might instead consider stating “briefly”, your opinion on the notion that “voting for the lesser of two evils is better than not voting at all.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 18, 2012 at 11:42 am Link to this comment

Moonie, this forum is not even about being the alpha dog, or ‘kicking ass’.  Well, I suppose it could be, but I’m not here for that.  Kick away if it makes you feel better. 

I acknowledge Gary’s post of April 17 at 5:15 pm, but give about 50-50 odds to the other possibility.  Not that it matters. 

In any case, I do hope that for your modest accomplishments in being ‘disruptive’, you get paid.  Some extremists just come to be disruptive to show off or feel important or vent frustrations.  I’ve seen it enough times now that it is obvious.  But if you’re getting paid, at least you’re not foolish enough to serve the ‘white man’,  (as represented by Obama or perhaps Romney someday) on your dime.  Hey, lie is short, why work for free?

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By moonraven, April 18, 2012 at 9:45 am Link to this comment

Well, John, both you and ole Mont are white guys.  Both wannabee Alpha dogs, but as Mont has correctly deduced (remarkably for someone with so little common sense he cannot get around on this website) there is only one poster here with sufficiuent “huevos"to qualify, and I am not even male!

Both of you, as well as other white supremacist wimps who are unecessary to name, DO seem to be getting away with a whole lot of white supremacist-style name calling.

Even obscenities.

So I guess that kind makes you a liar, don’t it now, bubba boy?

Poor little white guys, cut to ribbons by an ole Native American woman.Snif snif, whine whine, libel, libel.

Ya ought be ashamed.

But yeah, keep right on thinking that I am a Black Op dude who’s kicking your white ass—if that makes you feel less like a consummate loser.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, April 18, 2012 at 4:38 am Link to this comment

What do you call it when someone picks the most vile members of any race, then applies their characteristics across the board to taint each and every individual? 

I don’t think mooonraven is even a ‘native American’, or ‘First Nation’ or whatever.  He’s stirring up hate and division, and diluting/disrupting/sidetracking the discussion.  The effect…...indistinguishable from some ‘extremist operative’.  But with the cover of an oppressed person, he can get away with name calling a white supremacist couldn’t.

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By heterochromatic, April 17, 2012 at 8:35 pm Link to this comment

and if we were married I would make sure that neither of us escaped…..

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By Leefeller, April 17, 2012 at 7:18 pm Link to this comment

You know Moonie and Hetro remind me a lot of an old married couple who used to attended the local Methodist Chruch until it burned down,...  Hilda and Harold ...you sure you aren’t them?

By the way Moonie, your post on Conservatives was interesting. Back when GW Bush was President there was a little known survey which found Pathological liars had more dark matter in their brains then people who did not lie, but they also found out the Ostrich brain is the size of its eye ball, which screwed the whole dark matter survey thing up on conservatives, until they found a conservative who happened to have an exceptionally large head to eye ball equivalent like Newt Ganrich. The survey ended up concluding size does matter!

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By Korky Day, April 17, 2012 at 7:00 pm Link to this comment

If “moonraven” is such a despicable racist, then why does she seem to have the most interesting personality of all here?

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By moonraven, April 17, 2012 at 6:31 pm Link to this comment

Mont:

You can fend for yourself in the furnace, paleface.

I do not hate anyone—not even arrogant racist white supremacists like you.

I don’t have to—you white power genocidal goons have more than enough hate to cover the planet several times over.

BTW:  Just for a bit of a history lesson, bigmouth:  It was white guys like you who cut off the breasts of Native American women and dried the skin to drape over their saddle horns to get their jollies on the white warpath.

As for your envy of my “testicles”, common sense should tell you that if you haven’t got a pair by now, you won’t be growing one anytime soon.

Now go on out now and campaign for your plastic capuccino Al Jolson wannabee and stop whining about your posts not coming up fast enough.  You bill by the minute, instead of the post? 

Clue ole heteronym onto that—he’s not making enough to buy cat food with his 2 bits a post method.

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By moonraven, April 17, 2012 at 6:22 pm Link to this comment

Here’s a to-the-point comment which separates the wheat from the chaff:

“a Canadian study found that people on the right are less intelligent than people on the left. What happens is that they don’t think, they don’t reason with themselves, they only think in terms of their interests. And these interests aren’t even their interests, those that defend capitalism who aren’t capitalists, they are the subjects of capital, so they’re not even defending their own interests, but the interests of others. They are defending the interests of capital because of their own alienation, and that’s the problem, alienation.”

Source:  Victor Rodriguez,  http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/6930

With all the rightwing dummies pimping for patriotism on this site it’s not hard to see why there is a) a shocking scarcity of common sense and b) an equally shocking lack of quality in the presentation of facts, information and points of view—especially among those who believe that lies are truth and that opinions are information.

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By the worm, April 17, 2012 at 6:21 pm Link to this comment

Mitt may be all that Robert says. Probably is. Seems to be.

But, here’s the thing:

Of the three polls on Hard Ball tonight, one showed Romney ahead by 5 points,
another Obama by 1 point and a third Obama by 4 points.

Let’s assume that Romney is what Robert says and even that he’s those things by
ten.

If these three polls are indicative of the current state, then Obama’s failure to lead,
to articulate a ‘vision’ of any kind, a track record of following Republican rather
than Democratic policies has cost him dearly.

What Obama said and what Obama did cost him supporters who voted for him
based on what he said and then saw him ignore almost all of it.

They’re not coming back. Obama’s basically beggared the people who voted for
him and now he wants to ‘inspire them’.

But they were inspired and got stabbed in the back.

At the heart of it, Obama has proven to be untrustworthy.

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By Gary Mont, April 17, 2012 at 6:15 pm Link to this comment

Hey now people.

Lets give credit where credit is due huh.

moonraven is being completely honest about her absolute hatred of all white men everywhere, and has even explained its because some white men have done awful things in the past and today and likely in the future as well.

Admitting freely that one is a devout and proud racist is worthy of some modicum of respect. At least moonraven does not hide her feelings or pretend to be interested in changing the ways of her selected enemy.

MR has made it quite plain that if and when the people of earth rise up and start sending whitey to the furnaces, she’ll happily throw the ignition switch.

Most racists never admit their true feelings.

Look at Ozark Michael for instance - he’d never come right out and state that he’d love to be the guy who throws the switch on the furnace to fry all the blacks, orientals, jews and chicanos.

At least moonraven has testicles.

Of course, she likely cut them off some white guy when he was sleeping….

Back to you again, Raving at the Moon.

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By moonraven, April 17, 2012 at 6:11 pm Link to this comment

heteronym:

You might try apologizing to ME, you lying pile of pond scum.

No more venezuelan oil if Iran is attacked by you genocidal goons.

You might have to create a few more sockpuppets to post your polymorphous perverse personal attacks to invoice your employer for more money so your wife can continue to drive to her job to support your trolling addiction.

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By moonraven, April 17, 2012 at 6:07 pm Link to this comment

Mont:  I am supposed to care about your problems with this site?

Who am I, your Native American go-between with the world of technology?

Why not just post someplace else?

Ya know, what white folks always say to the folks they ripped off the land from:  Love it or leave it?

I left twenty years ago and went to Mexico.

I put my money where my mouth is.

Let’s see the color of YOUR money.

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By heterochromatic, April 17, 2012 at 5:58 pm Link to this comment

even your rotting maggoty body will be no less graceless and foul than it
presently is.

you might try apologizing to the tech staff, goatboy.

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, April 17, 2012 at 5:50 pm Link to this comment

I realize that Moon Raving has already telepathically explained all of this to everyone here, but this is for those who are also wearing one of my patented

      GEM Blockaway tin-foil hats.

        $8.95 plus Postage,

        available at

        http://www.copyfreegems.com

I noticed that my posts were no longer being published immediately upon SUBMIT.

As a member, I thought that this was unusual. I also noticed that when I posted here about this unusual event four minutes after it happened, both my posts showed up immediately upon submitting the second, very short one.

The “BURP” post was a test to see if a new post would cause the last post - prevented from being published by some force or other - to be pushed out of its holding pen by the insertion of the new post.

And it worked like a charm. smile

In truth, I expected the system to reject my one word post, but hoped its presense in the queue would do the trick and force out the previous post.

Back to you “Raving at the Moon”.

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moonraven's avatar

By moonraven, April 17, 2012 at 5:48 pm Link to this comment

I thought I was always funny.

We Native Anmericans are known for being a barrel of laughs, always.

So are Palestinians, come to think of it.

What’s not funny are uninformed trolls like you who simply come here to attack other posters and bill their employer for services rendered.

Pimping for patriotism—aka endless war all around the planet against its life forms—is ALSO not funny.

In fact, you are about as funny as a rotting corpse crawling with maggots.

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By heterochromatic, April 17, 2012 at 5:35 pm Link to this comment

not funny… your ranting crap about the brainlessness of the tech staff on the site
is gratuitous grumping….and adding some silly-assed shit about how you lectured
the other kids about base 2 is just the type of preening garbage that, in this
context, marks you yet again as a boorish bag of bile.

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moonraven's avatar

By moonraven, April 17, 2012 at 5:20 pm Link to this comment

I am not at all sure why hetero believes my manner of fucking to be any of his business.

Apparently, in addition to trolling here, he visits XXX sites and occasionally—after everyone else has stopped posting and gone to bed so that he can not suck off their posts to make personal attacks billed to his employer until morning—sneaks around his neighborhood peeping, and now believe it is incumbent upon him to question LEGITIMATE posters about their sex lives.

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By heterochromatic, April 17, 2012 at 5:13 pm Link to this comment

moonie—- have you no fucking manners at all?

or are you paid to impersonate a combo pilonidal cyst/yeast infection?

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 17, 2012 at 5:08 pm Link to this comment

Moonie posted;

“Not only does it ask me to tell the webmaster what I was doing just before receiving the message (a flagrant villation of my privacy if what I was doing was not,precisely, submitting a post) but receiving it means that I have to then check to see if my post sows up on the thread.”

First of all I am not sure what villation of Moonies privacy would consist of, but it don’t sound too good? When asked by TD,  finally decided to confess and tell TD I had just opening a bottle of Tequila before receiving the message and no I did not spill any, hoping it would make the problem go away, but to no success.

Moonie, you have a blog? Now I am not into that schismatic stuff, you know whips and chains, suppose it would be more for someone like Ant honey Werner?

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moonraven's avatar

By moonraven, April 17, 2012 at 4:47 pm Link to this comment

Oh, for Christ’s sake, you people are so lacking in common sense that you make my teeth hurt!

We post comments in a binary universe called a computer—which expanded to include many other such machines as well as fiber optics comprises Internet.

Now, in a binary situation, there are at any given moment two choices:  0 and 1.  I remember giving a presentation on how a binary system works in 1959, in the 10th grade math class—so this is not new, nor is it complicated.

In short, if first choice 0 doesn’t work, don’t just sit there scratching yourself and swearing—try the second choice 1.  It will work unless the system is flat our broken, in which case, go do something else.

I have had a few email exchanges with the webmaster folks, and I am of the opinion that the problem is not that they have a small staff—which they imply is the problem—but that no one on that small staff has any more common sense than in any other corner of gringolandia, as the latest email I received made excuses for the problem, and then asked what they could do to remedy the problem for me.  My response was obvious:  Fix it.

What is more annoying to me than the sign-in glitch is the more than occasional “server error” message after submitting a post.  Not only does it ask me to tell the webmaster what I was doing just before receiving the message (a flagrant villation of my privacy if what I was doing was not,precisely, submitting a post) but receiving it means that I have to then check to see if my post sows up on the thread.

As for the implication that it is my obligation to inform all other posters how to get around the glitches, a person with basic skills in logic—aka common sense—would usually assume that if folks are posting here that they have figured that out on their own.

And finally, the PM function, or Private Message function is not new—I have received PMs since I began posting here.  The problem is that TD doesn’t mention it separately, as other sites do, and that you have to look at your account data to know it’s there.  It is even still working, as I received a PM from another poster asking for the link to my blog two days ago.

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By heterochromatic, April 17, 2012 at 4:41 pm Link to this comment

kulu——I get my news from mostly non-US sites….and still think that RT is
untrustworthy…..you can do a whole lot better than trusting Russian state-owned
media….even the state-funded Al Jazeera is light-years more reliable.

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, April 17, 2012 at 4:31 pm Link to this comment

burp

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, April 17, 2012 at 4:30 pm Link to this comment

Yo Shenonymous,

Thanks for the heads up.

I have had no response from the TD webmaster yet and thought the lack of responses here in this forum might be due to the same or a similar problem I was having with logging in.

I was of course unaware that Moonraving had already informed all the other posters as to ways and means of getting around the loop, through telepathy.

Probably due to my tinfoil hat. smile

I stopped posting here last time because of the myriad technical glitches TD was experiencing and did a little research in my spare time instead.

From what I can gather reading the “IT security news” and government Internet Warfare blogs, its apparently quite easy to intercept and rewrite the code being transferred between a website and a browser, such that a well-endowed third party can pretty much change all the links on a web page before the page is loaded by the browser by simply redirecting the browser to an identical page with the changes already written in, or by the addition/subtraction of text or spaces randomly to messages or articles in order to make them less legible.

Dirty Tricks Department stuff.

I assume that this is what is happening here and elsewhere now that Obama has made it perfectly legal to spy on Americans 24/7 without notification, or due cause or due process and given legal sanction and a shitload of tax payer’s money to cyberwarrior groups for pre-emptive cyber-assaults on all conveniently perceived “terrists” wherever they may be found.

“Terrists” of course referring to anyone who might consider the current corporate take-over of the USA as being less than ideal and have the audacity to voice their opinion.

I would assume that any private venue designed to circumvent such shenanigans by the forces of fascism, would be duly compromised at the earliest opportunity through similar online warfare tactics and put on the watched list, in the hopes of capturing text that could be misread as “Supporting Terrorism”.

Catching someone talking bad about the machinations of the occupying junta is great press when you can claim the dissenters are Terrorists and you never have to actually prove any of your accusations.

It sends that all important message to any others who might consider dissenting -

“We are above all law and the law works for us.”

If you do utilize such a venue for duscussion it might be wise to physically exchange code words the way drug dealers and real terrorists do, so that your discussions will appear to be about cooking, sports, dog training or cars.

Contrary to popular belief, you are no longer living in a democracy, or a republic. You now live in the Dominion of Corporate Precincts and your government is Public Enemy No.1.

Don’t forget also that any corporation that you use as a forum source, will be far more concerned about pleasing the federal corporate controllers and their army of legal hackers, than about your civil rights.

Methinks it would behoove you to act accordingly. The consequences of assuming otherwise are indeed dire. smile

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 17, 2012 at 3:07 pm Link to this comment

Gary Mont, April 14 at 7:48 pm – Truthdig is experiencing some site
problems.  I have had some problems like you have described as well
but have been working with the very courteous Webmaster to get it
fixed.  I won’t say exactly what is the problem as it isn’t important but
I think there is a kind of systemwide set of different problems.  The site
shut down a few weeks ago for about eight or so hours due to a breach
in its system and many participants are receiving a few different posting
messages problems as well. 

I plan to try the new format when it is up and running but some of us
who have been kind of colleagues for a few years are looking into
creating a new forum to continue discussion much as we do on Truthdig
but without trolls.  It is only in the musing stages at the moment.  Weez
all beez a bit busy with real life responsibilities but it will happen sooner
or later…maybe.

By the way, were you all aware that you could use Truthdig’s closed
system email feature found at your member page to speak to another
TD member privately?  Do you know how to get to it?  I’ll let you know
how if you don’t and want to, if you mention it in an email here.

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moonraven's avatar

By moonraven, April 17, 2012 at 9:47 am Link to this comment

Gary,  Some of us had enough common sense to:

1.  Figure that out without your help and even

2.  Send an email to the site folks telling them to get off their butts and fix the problem.

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, April 17, 2012 at 6:36 am Link to this comment

Looks like nobody can get past the log in page now eh.

For those who care to, log in as normal amd when the system re-directs you back to the log-in page instead of sending you to the message page, just close the tab and use the New Message email to reload the page - you should be still logged in.

Good luck

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, April 15, 2012 at 1:16 pm Link to this comment

Cliff Carson wrote:
First there will be those who will claim that your vote is supposed to be secret, but I assure you that it is not kept secret, and there is, and has been, a business of compiling and selling how you voted ever since electronic voting machines hit the scene.

I know. There is no way voter secrecy could exist in a culture of surveillance such as the we have in the west today, even if it were conceivable that at one time the vote was actually secret.

Secrecy attracts corruption like shit attracts flies.

No institution that utilizes secrecy in any aspect of its operation can remain uncorrupted for more than a decade. Criminals dream about taking over long established and trusted institutions such as the Insurance, Medical, Energy and Financial Industries, not to mention the church and state.

When corporate america merged with government, voter ID became a perfect marketting tool and thus an absolutely must have asset for corporate profiteering.

Of course, you’ll have as much success convincing americans of this as you will have trying to convince them that their government is actually a corporate marketting department bent on creating exploitiation opportunities for the now legalized criminal activities of corporate america.

As far as the explanation for the secret ballot goes - “to prevent intimidation of voters” - americans obviously already realize that their criminal justice system is a failure, else they’d simply demand that anyone caught intimidating a voter should suffer punishment under law to the fullest degree possible.

I’ve said it a thousand times - all vote interference should be pervceived as a form of treason, since it attempts to undermine the will of the people by corrupting the purpose of government. I offer the current situation as proof of this claim. The American Government has been completely over-taken by corporate america, who now uses it specifically to rob americans blind.

The corporations that now control your government should be charged under the espionage act with treason, dissolved - their assets forfeited to make reparations for their crimes - and their leaders and employees incarcerated as enemies of the state for prison terms based on their individual amount of culpability in turning the rule of law into the rule by criminals.

But since they own the government and its the job of the government to bring such charges to bear, this is not even a remote possibility.

Nor is there any chance at all that a truly honest method of voting can be adopted in the west, simply because the people who now run the institutions of the west will prevent all such attempts by the public and make no such attempts themselves.

As it stands right now, your POTUS - at the behest of his masters - is doing everything he can to root out and eliminate any and all honest people in the halls of politics, by using the espionage act to attack whistleblowers who expose the government for the criminally controlled organization it has become.

As has been said, nobody who has tortured people has been charged with any crime, but blowing the whistle on the illegality of torture and the fact that the administration knew it was illegal, will get you a prison term.

If you really must vote for the lesser of two evils, methinks it might behoove the voter to truly determine just which one really is the lesser evil, whether the vote is actually counted or not.

No way in hell Obama can be seen as the lesser evil, even compared to GWBush. In the same way that the Nazis chose the name Nazi - meaning National Socialist - to mask their true intentions, Obama has selected the name Democrat to hide his true intentions.

Stop listening to his words and start looking at his actions America - Actions speak louder than words, especially when delivered by a con-artist of the caliber of Obama.

End the secret ballot and you’ll put a huge dent in fascism’s free ride.

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moonraven's avatar

By moonraven, April 15, 2012 at 10:44 am Link to this comment

bill:

Over a year ago there were several articles of news on another plastic progressive site, Common Dreams, specifically about the increase in funds to US government agency budgets to pay piecework posters to disrupt internet discussions.

But, even more to the point, I believe that all of these sites receive operating money from the US government to provide a safety valve for discontent.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 15, 2012 at 7:54 am Link to this comment

kulu, thanks for the link, I checked it out and did wonder where they where coming from and who was paying them, the fact they are slanting from Russia does not bother me any more or less than if it was from the BBC, I can still form my own opinions, though I did not find anything substantial helping me know more about economics?

Must admit, the little I read made more sense than something coming from fair and the fair and unbalanced Fox or Rush Limbaugh, floating around like Baby Ruth’s in a cesspool!

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 15, 2012 at 4:56 am Link to this comment

kulu, April 15 at 3:28 am - How can you tell whether the Russian
media is not biased?

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kulu's avatar

By kulu, April 15, 2012 at 4:28 am Link to this comment

shenon/hetero,

a)Try watching RT’s Capital Account or The Alyona Show for yourselves and form your own opinions.

b)Is the Russian view of capitalism, if indeed these shows portray that, any less valid or biased than your own?

c)I can’t pick up any real attempts at bias towards Russia myself on the two shows I mention above but I suspect some of their other shows might slant things a bit to provide a Russian perspective/spin on things, eg Syria.

d) The American and Western corporate media is itself extremely biased, and I mean extremely, so to get another view of things surely can’t be a bad thing. And on top of this the shows are also quite entertaining.

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By Cliff Carson, April 14, 2012 at 10:11 pm Link to this comment

Gary Mont, April 14 at 7:25 pm

Yes I have had a few problems and I’m sure that there are those who attack the site daily.  But mine have been minor and do get cleared up by the Truthdig people.  As to the voting scheme:

First there will be those who will claim that your vote is supposed to be secret, but I assure you that it is not kept secret, and there is, and has been, a business of compiling and selling how you voted ever since electronic voting machines hit the scene.

I know this for a fact since in the 2008 primary election I was called by a college volunteer and thanked for voting for Candidate X and would I help bring voters to the November election?  I asked him how he knew how I voted and he told me he was furnished a list of voters, their phone number, and who they voted for.

I called the State Commissioner and reported what happened.  He informed me that it was perfectly legal, that at the state office anyone could purchase such lists.  When I tried to buy one ( screened and ordered to my request, they decided not sell me one).

As to the voter in the scheme:

He registers to vote at which time the photo ID Serialized Card is issued.  The card has memory capacity and a program to read a vote selection off the voting machine Display screen.  That voting machine display routine allows the voter to review what selections he made and either accept the display or reject what is displayed.

As to the database populated at Registration, think for a minute, toward the end of my description I said all the databases have to match to authenticate a vote tally.  And if they didn’t match there would be an investigation from the original database with a history of all changes.  A Party would not have permissions to do anything with the database except receive a download.  That party receiving the download could change their COPY of the download , but what good would that do?  It wouldn’t match the original database w/ changes when the voting process wouldn’t authenticate because the adaptations would not match the others and this outcome would automatically cause a review of the original plus its updates and the differences would be found by the computer routine I wrote about - the comparison.

And keep in mind that the accepted Display at the Voting booth when read at the precinct worker is creating a database FROM THE CARD recording of the voting machine display.

As I said before this is just a view from 50,000 feet and the minutia would be necessary to write the programs.  However to the voter all he would do is go to the Precinct Station operator present his card and the worker would validate he is a valid voter by locating him in the database and comparing his photo.  This only allows him to vote.
 
He goes to the voting machine and does his thing -  keep in mind you currently have to review your vote and either accept it or reject it.  But currently a card is not used to capture your selection.  This is the key to stopping fraud because the voter goes from the display and inserts the card into the card reader, downloading the display info and the precinct worker only validates his photo and Serial Number from the voting machine display.

This is about a five second stop for the voter and requires no skill because all the voter is doing is inserting the card and signing his display printout.

From there the voter swipes the card for the other three card reader stations.  So after voting the voter will spend less than one half minute total from the first stop until he is out the door.

The key is that if anywhere in the system an unauthorized change has been made, the comparison of Independent Databases will not allow authentication of the vote tally, because they all won’t match.  And if they don’t match there will be a trail left of how that came about - the who, what, and when.

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, April 14, 2012 at 8:48 pm Link to this comment

Veddy Interesting.

Logging in now returns me to the Log In page after I’m logged in and refuses to let me out of that page.

Logging in a second or third time has the same result.
Clicking “Back” takes me back to the page, but I’m not logged in.

I have to close the tab in my browser and reload it from the new-message-has-been-posted email link to return to the message page - still logged in.

Submitting my post no longer immediately shows my post on the message page - I waited four minutes before posting this - even though reposting it causes the error page to show this:


The form you submitted contained the following errors

This comment is an exact duplicate of an existing comment, which is not allowed. Did you click the submit button twice, or write a very common bit of text?

Return to Previous Page

When I return the page using the provided link, the text in the text box has been erased.

Is anyone else experiencing unusual login mis-directions, or posting delays?

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Gary Mont's avatar

By Gary Mont, April 14, 2012 at 8:25 pm Link to this comment

Yo Cliff Carson:

I am all for the creation of a voting system that is crook proof, but it has to also be idiot proof, and this appears to be as complicated as anything I’ve read. In fact, I’m not sure I actually followed the process completely to its end in the manner that you tried to present it.

=====================

All must register to vote to be eligible to vote.
An E-Card with a photo will be given those who are registered once the card is proofed.  The card will be serialized and the photo likewise to connect the photo SN and the card SN.  A Database will be accomplished for all registered proven voters with a valid card.

So all one has to worry about here is whether the republcians/fascists are involved in the registration process, (making sure that no democrat voter goes un-felonized) and somehow making sure that everyone who is actually eligible actually gets a card.

==============

A voter presents his card to the precinct worker.  The SN and photo is displayed on a screen and compared to the cards issued Database.
The precinct worker verifies the validity.

No chance of bribing the precinct worker eh.
No chance that Diebold made the validation/display machinery I hope. How can these machines be proven Fascist proof.

==============

All voting machines will be configured such that a vote cannot be made without the E-Card inserted and read.  A camera will photo the voter as the voting takes place (While the E-Card is in the machine).

A camera will photgraph yer mug and record your vote??
Is the picture and vote stored on a machine?? Who has access to such a machine. At this point it would appear the idea of secret vote is rendered nul and void.

==============

The E-Card will be coded with the vote selections made at the machine.  And the vote entry will contain the Card SN and the camera photo.

So the photo and vote selection are recorded on the same machine in the vote entry?? Starting to lose the path here.

====================

The voter reviews his selections and either accepts or rejects the screen display.  On acceptance of a display a print out is effected and the E-Card is removed by the voter and taken along with the printout to a voting precinct official and the updated card inserted into a card reader.

OK, I’m completely lost at this point. My mug shot has already been taken and yet I haven’t even verified whether I agree with the displayed selection?
And then I have to take all this to another easily bribable or simply rented-for-the-crime human!!

==============

The vote is displayed and compared to the printout.  If the same, the voter signs the printout and gives it to the precinct worker. The vote is recorded in the Database with SN and photo.  The original printout is micro filed.

Now I’ve not only got me mug shot recorded woith my vote but my signature too?? How is this any better than simply getting rid of the whole silly notion of secret ballots altogether??

==============

From there the card is taken by the voter to be read into three independent card readers - Republican, Democrat, and Independent.  When completed the voter retains the card until the next election.

Gads! Do these other machines get my mug shot and my vote selection too?

I’m sorry, maybe its just me, but I think you’d have to take a short course in voter procedures before you could successfuly accomplish this task. Is there an IQ test one has to pass for that registration card? And personally, it appears to me that the whole idea of secret ballot was eliminated as soon as the photo was taken of the voter.

If you’re gonna eliminate the secret ballot, then there must be a hunderd easier ways to vote than this.
Like maybe signing your ballot and getting an official photocopy receipt and then displaying all the names of all who voted by district on the web for each city, so people can verify their vote was counted.

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By heterochromatic, April 14, 2012 at 3:23 pm Link to this comment

RT is stae-owned and jumps when Putin cracks the whip….


now go rescue a few backs back from the clutches of the government

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