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March to Nowhere

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Posted on Oct 5, 2010
AP / J. Scott Applewhite

Activists gather at the Lincoln Memorial to participate in the “One Nation Working Together” rally to promote job creation, diversity and tolerance.

By Chris Hedges

We can hold One Nation marches every week. It will not make any difference until we revolt against the formal structures of power.

The liberal preoccupation with positive forms of propaganda ignores the root of our problem. The tea party and hate mongers on Fox such as Glenn Beck, however repugnant, are the manifestation of the crisis, not its cause. The forces assaulting the remnants of American democracy will not be cowed or discredited with rallies, such as the one in Washington on Saturday. We will blunt these rising anti-democratic forces only when we organize outside conventional systems of power. It means dismantling the permanent war economy and the corporate state. It means an end to foreclosures and bank repossessions. It means a functional health care system for all Americans. It means taking care of our poor and unemployed. And it means a system of government that is freed from corporate interests.

Mass support for anti-democratic movements and public acceptance of open violations of human rights are not caused, in the end, by the skillful dissemination of misinformation or brainwashing. They are caused by the breakdown of a society and the death of a liberal class that once made reform and representative government possible. The timidity of our liberal class was on public display during the march in Washington. Speakers may have called for jobs, but none would call on citizens to abandon the rotting hull of the Democratic Party and our moribund political system or put Wall Street speculators in prison. The speakers at the rally proposed working within the current electoral system, although most Americans are aware that it has been gamed by corporate interests. This is hardly a call, especially given the failures of the Obama administration, that will fire up the unemployed and underemployed. 

“We need jobs,” the Rev. Al Sharpton said at the march. “We’ve bailed out the banks. We bailed out the insurance companies. Now it’s time to bail out the American people.”

But Sharpton and the other speakers, too close to the power elite in the Democratic Party, did not call for rebellion. There was no war cry against Wall Street and the purveyors of death in the defense and health industry. There was no acknowledgement that unfettered capitalism and globalization are killing our ecosystem and creating a worldwide system of neo-feudalism. There was no acceptance that the corporate state must be dismantled if we are to save ourselves. Any effective resistance must begin with a condemnation of our political elite and liberal institutions, including the press, the universities, labor, the arts, religious institutions and the Democratic Party, for selling us out. But the speakers on the mall in Washington would not go there. And I suspect, for this reason, the Americans who are hurting most found nothing they said of interest.

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All totalitarian movements, even those that are openly criminal, succeed because they have widespread mass support. They are the expression of a yearning that sweeps through a nation that has been convulsed by economic dislocation, a loss of hope and flagrant political corruption. And in these times of lament and deprivation the absurdities, crimes and excesses of reactionary forces do not matter. It wasn’t hard to find out what Slobodan Milosevic was doing in Bosnia. It wasn’t hard in Nazi Germany to hear about the widespread massacres of Jews in Poland. It is not a secret to most Americans that Muslim detainees, held for years without charges, are tortured in black sites around the world. The murder of tens of thousands of civilians by our forces in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan is tacitly acknowledged by the public as the price of war. The massive human suffering in the open-air prison that is Gaza is not a mystery. We know what happens to the millions of undocumented workers who live as stateless citizens among us and have become a kind of modern day slave labor force.

The rising proto-fascist movement in America is caused by a hatred and alienation so profound that the crimes of the state, along with the buffoonish antics of those who defend and champion these crimes, do not matter. We will not discredit the right-wing with facts, a demand for a respect of law or rational discussion. Propaganda or counter messages of tolerance are not the issue. The issue is societal collapse. This issue is a corporate state that has carried out a coup d’etat. The issue is the rupture of all mechanisms within the political process to protect citizens from accelerating impoverishment, internal control and corporate abuse. Those who refuse to acknowledge this bleak reality cannot offer solutions.

The right-wing propagandists have not created the problem. They have tapped into the moral void that has left tens of millions of Americans yearning for a profound and radical change. And if torture, war, racist attacks on immigrants, gays and Muslims, along with increased repression against internal dissidents, is the price for moral and economic renewal, many Americans are ready to sign on. If those who lead this rising proto-fascist movement insist on a Christian nation, teach creationism and believe in the physical existence of Satan, many Americans will sign on for this too. Hatred, when mobilized, is a very effective political force. And hatred, including the hatred for a liberal class that abandoned the working class, is what we face.


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By archivesDave, October 25, 2010 at 7:04 am Link to this comment

For those who are befuddled by NWO Freemasonry
conflict and obfuscation, here is another specimen of
‘ordo ab chao’:
    Red Jacket (1751-1830) Seneca Indian Chief. A
contemporary of Joseph Brant, q.v., and after Brant’s
death, the most important chief of the Six Nations.
Before his elevation to chieftainship of the Wolf
clan his name was Otetiani, meaning “prepared.” On
his advancement he was named Sagoyewatha, or “he who
keeps them awake.” He was famed as an orator and was
champion of the Indian tribal customs, langtiage,
dress, and religion. He was particularly antagonistic
to missionaries and the Christian religion. Chief
Brant had only contempt for Red Jacket, and named him
“cow killer.” Chief Corn-planter called him a coward.
In the Revolutionary War, he sided with the British
who gave him a red coat, from which was derived his
English name. In the War of 1812 he sided with the
United States. Washington presented him with a medal.
His Masonic membership has never been established,
but it is thought he was an Entered Apprentice, being
initiated in an army lodge—possibly British. This is
the opinion held by the late Dr. Arthur C. Parker,
q.v., whose grandfather, Nicholson H. Parker was a
grandnephew of Red Jacket. Red Jacket owned a silver
Masonic medal which passed down through his family.
General Ely S. Parker, q.v., grandnephew of Red
Jacket, who inherited his tribal honors as chief,
also believed that his illustrious ancestor was a
Freemason. d. Jan. 30, 1830 at Seneca Village, N.Y.

For further research Jordan Maxwell has a lot of good
material however don’t believe everything he spouts.

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By BR549, October 24, 2010 at 12:36 pm Link to this comment

Napolean,
That’s why we not only go through our motions here, but we also are trying, each
one of us, to educate all those around us through discussion, email, and blog
commentary, otherwise, we wouldn’t be here with so many like minded people;
people who have felt that “splinter in their mind”, as Morpheus would have said.

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By ardee, October 24, 2010 at 12:34 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie, October 21 at 12:39 pm Link to this comment

ardee—while it is correct to remind people that the cops read the Net too, it is pretty likely that none of those posting hot words about violent actions are going to do anything about them.  In fact most of them seem to have no idea what they’re talking about

A funny, and rather pointed, commentary, and one deserving of a chuckle and then a rueful grimace. Of course far,far too many of us see only as far as our opinions allow us, and are too willing to make that obvious.

I include myself in that grouping far too often, though I do try really,really hard to substantiate my own beliefs and challenge them daily, a rather stony trail to walk I confess but a necessary hardship if one is to continue to believe in the rightness of ones positions.

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 24, 2010 at 12:16 pm Link to this comment

Well said BR549… good stuff.

Yet my heart breaks, for the more I understand the world around me beyond the illusions…. I still see so many unaware and uninformed…  I need to get to work.

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By archivesDave, October 24, 2010 at 6:22 am Link to this comment

BR549:
Ahh the arrogance of pride, power, and control.
Kind of reminds me of the original perpetrator of such:
“Principalities and powers in high places…”

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By BR549, October 23, 2010 at 4:56 pm Link to this comment

Napolean,
“How can the blood cell inside the host KNOW and UNDERSTAND they exist within something beyond them ...”

Excellent analogy. Your “blood cell” contains the DNA to actually become any other cell in the body, were its new localized environment signaling it through gene expression to serve some other purpose. Yet it is that higher sense of communication and “trust” in the system that allows for the basic needs of that blood cell to be met. It means that that blood cell can forego having to evolve a flagellum to help with its nutrition and excrement needs and instead go through an elaborate evolution of specialization ......... again, as long as those basic needs continue to be met. It means that the cell no longer needs to try to evolve eyes, ears, or a skeletal structure and try to reinvent 4 billion years of evolution.

When that “system”, for whatever reason, breaks down, that’s when cells lose faith in having their needs met and then revert to earlier DNA capabilities and start to rediscover their ancestral past (potentially, anyway). Today, we might call it cancer, but it’s really a breakdown in communications because the host isn’t paying attention to its duties of governance, or has itself lost that “connection” with members of its own kind or with those forces of a higher level. We see this as a loss of appropriate intuition and instead the host maligns itself with its own body in some errant belief that it has the power to just manifest life itself for its own purposes. Whatever intuitive capacity it then manages to use are then on a separate course from the forces of nature and that becomes sheer arrogance.

No matter how much these self-appointed illuminati try, they are not going to be able to reinvent the patterns and forces of nature; not as long as they are still a part of it. Maybe someday, mankind will be able to transcend that barrier, but it won’t be through killing those of its own kind or especially through piss poor stewardship and a total lack of accepting responsibility for everything they claim to reign over.

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 23, 2010 at 1:30 pm Link to this comment

In lieu of my pride, I will share this:

When people depart from the basic principles of this existence we call life, the outcome of creating a duality due to lack of faith of what history tells ( especially biblical accounts, for those are the accounts of the physical manifestation of the being and thing called God ).

Yet, no one can boast and claim lineage from anywhere nowadays… and that’s been evident in the amount of conflicts over the boasting from man’s mouth.

So we have two empires ( much like as always been in history, yet folks need to read up and catch up ) once again rearing their ugly heads.

And we have conflict, confusion and confiscation of the very spirit of man ( or the attempt to do such ).

And the entire bible expounds the response nature has on man when man steps out of his symbiosis with nature and God’s laws of attraction and detraction.

Man has gone out and made his own reality… and we are all subject to that bad leadership… yet it has been leadership nonetheless into the position every single person on the planet now has… the opportunity to take hold of their mind, their thoughts, and having the choice to fight with weapons of this world or spiritual weapons followed through with righteous action…

The fabric of reality will once again be torn in two… much like when the curtain split upon the murder of the Christ!

My spirituality is ( is based upon ) the Christ, as the teachings found in the book about Him describe and prescribe… What better person to personify and learn from, for He is the One who explained all things clearly, and from Love.  He was the definition of Love, just read about Him and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

Our perceptions about Him have always lacked a better understanding ( always limited; How can the blood cell inside the host KNOW and UNDERSTAND they exist within something beyond them, yet boast they know so much? ).

If that is being religious, then we need to mention how our minds have been conditioned to view a particular paradigm instead of the reality of things ( look up Edward Bernays and you’ll see what I’m talking about ) and our language has been hijacked… remember how “that’s bad” meant “that’s good.”  The experiment worked, and thus our demise began.

We are in a virtual cage for our minds, and we accept the ‘hand’ dealt us by this system we are trying to define and see ( royally insane nobodies believing they’re somebody because the of the fake god they push onto us - the fiat - ) 

We see the empire and its appendages.

What is the solution?

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By BR549, October 23, 2010 at 12:10 pm Link to this comment

Dave and Kulu,
All it takes for anyone in charge of anything, from a shift at Burger King to running the planet, is to have a sense of common connection; to each other and to the universe. The Bilderberg sociopaths are so consumed with their own illusion of success, they’ve had no time to evaluate their failures; the real ones.

And this is why they will at least doom themselves. They may take everyone down with them in their quest for God-like powers, but the universe just does not support that level of negativity. The human mind can’t be stifled by a handful of misanthropes struggling for job security, no matter what level they think they’ve obtained. It’s like interrupting the Chi of a great river in order to erect a dam.

Every time I see those clips of Cheney bragging about his various roles on the Council of Foreign Relations, all I can think of is what an arrogant prick.

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By archivesDave, October 23, 2010 at 10:45 am Link to this comment

BR549:
“but some meteorite will come crashing through their
fuselage and that whole bunch of hemophilic fudge-
packers will come back to Earth in a huge fireball
..... and good fucking riddance.”

Heeyyy BR, I thoroughly agree with Kulu!!!! 
I tossed my cookies and still can’t find all of em’!

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By kulu, October 23, 2010 at 4:03 am Link to this comment

This thread has developed a life of its own and that’s excellent.

BR549, I take it you are not too happy with the Roths…whatever and their fellow gangsters?

I think you should consider compiling and having published a book of rants to disseminate your insights and obvious knowledge on matters historical and contemporary. It could be categorized under the heading “Political philosophy” or “Humor”.

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By BR549, October 23, 2010 at 12:32 am Link to this comment

Dave,
I think you hit the nail on the head. Not to get “religious” here (cuz I’m not) but as just a “spiritual” person, I just can’t imagine God going to all that trouble to evolve life to higher levels of consciousness, when misguided , ego-centric misanthropes like the Rothschilds and the Rockefellers are trying to play God with the masses and killing them by the millions.

In their next incarnation, that whole crew will have come back as tapeworms or
some other parasites that they are so much emulating in today’s world. I’m
mean think about it. We aren’t talking about some historical event where one
tribal entity overpowers its neighbor. This is a bunch of sociopaths that for 200
years have tried to rule the world, thinking they are somehow more genetically
advanced than the rest of us.

First of all, they aren’t some Aryan master race. They aren’t tall, blond, muscular and svelt with superior intellects. And if they were as intelligent as they try to pass themselves as being, they would have realized that the true power in governance, particularly within the same supposedly “conscious” species, is with a sense of noblesse oblige. These people, on the other hand, are still crawling around in the gutters of plague-ridden medieval Europe along with the rats. With all the power and wealth they’ve managed to accumulate in that time, they’ve managed only to run the world like our own government has run this country over the decades ...... into the ground. There’s no sense of responsible stewardship, no forward thinking for the planet as a whole; just for the self preservation of themselves. We might as well be back on the plains of Africa, 1.8M years ago.

These people couldn’t run a successful lemonade stand, at least not without hiring the neighborhood bully to go punch out the competition in a dark alley, let alone a successful business without resorting to bribes or extortion. Forget managing a planet.

They have such a hatred of humanity; it can only be a projection of their own self loathing. In the end, they may succeed in actually poisoning the planet in their own race to kill humanity, but they will only doom themselves in the end. They will have escaped in a space ship to a colony they built on the moon with OUR tax dollars, while people would be starving in the streets, but some meteorite will come crashing through their fuselage and that whole bunch of hemophilic fudge-packers will come back to Earth in a huge fireball ..... and good fucking riddance.

I mean, if they want to run the planet, fine, I don’t have a problem with that; at least do it with some appropriate managerial skills and some integrity, and if they can’t, then get the hell out of they way and let someone else do it.

Sorry, I digressed!  :o)

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By archivesDave, October 22, 2010 at 11:23 pm Link to this comment

Kulu and BR549:
With a little research, u will note that it was the
Rothschilds who financed the founding of Israel.
Interesting how much of a linchpin they were and are
in the founding of the Fed Reserve and NWO as well.
We do need to keep in mind however that God is not
finished with Israel tho and He uses forces such as
this to fulfill His ultimate purposes.
The Endgame advances.

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By kulu, October 22, 2010 at 12:51 pm Link to this comment

BR549

Thanks John Locke expresses it as well as any.

On Israel… you’re probably right but most of the rest of the Western world has more or less sat back and let US/Israeli bloodymindedness have sway. Its pathetic.

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 21, 2010 at 11:20 am Link to this comment

Here here ITW.

You mentioned some interesting things regarding the progression of societies and their governing bodies.

My point of view of history is this:

Governments move from one type to another… like a capitalistic meandering into a more socialistic or even communistic establishment.

In this Clinton speech I’ll share here, he mentions “communitarianism” and thus reveals the rise of the communist empire, running governments and their citizenry by proxy through huge corporations and their well capitalized and organized wealthy upper class.

The common ground among the people of the world is MONEY and is NOT the reality that we are all THE SAME.. we are PEOPLE.. yet our values and existence is based on a dollar amount next to our names on some list somewhere.

Man cannot serve both God and Money…. it says that for a reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_UTMFQRiOo&feature=player_embedded#!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Anti-capitalism_color-2.jpg

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 21, 2010 at 10:58 am Link to this comment

Well said BR549, and thanks for including that piece on John Locke.

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 21, 2010 at 10:51 am Link to this comment

David Byron, thank you for that link to that image… for that says so much…. I’ve tried explaining in paragraphs what that picture so well defines and showcases.

MANY know what you talk about and refer to sir…

There are shills and lackeys among us, even here on this virtual plain… and TD… so look out naysayers and obedient slaves to Caesar… you will have to flee from the masses of patriots and REAL Americans.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 21, 2010 at 10:50 am Link to this comment

Where has violent revolution actually worked? Cuba? Gimme a break! China? “Communism” is simply the latest dynasty in land that has had dynastic rule going back millennia.  This one isn’t even very old!

Britain? France?  How many decades did it take?  In France, the Revolution was in 1789.  They didn’t establish a stable democracy until after the Franco-Prussian War of 1871!

Tsarist Russia????

The USA?  Our “Revolution” was a war of secession, not revolution.  There’s a BIG difference.  Even so, it was mainly in the North and there were VAST atrocities on both sides, neighbor against neighbor, loyalist against secessionist.  The end result was pretty amazing considering there were two virtually incompatible societies under one roof: The manufacturing North and the slave-based South.

No, I would argue the violent revolution ALWAYS fails. It merely replaces the thugs with another set, usually more vicious and violent.  It does not produce a just society.

Also, people who write on web sites about the benefits of revolution aren’t the ones making them.  I suppose that’s a good thing.

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By BR549, October 21, 2010 at 8:53 am Link to this comment

DavidByron,
That link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Anti-capitalism_color-2.jpg , was perfect. It would have even been more humorous if it wasn’t true. It just goes to show us how long this has been a problem.

The illustration appears to have been done in 1911, right after the Jekyll Island
meeting. I doubt that anyone on the bottom of the pyramid would have minded
the load they carried on their shoulders as long as their needs were getting met
in Mazlovian fashion, but what the current day imbeciles fail to understand is
that without the entire structure, that whole thing collapses downward, and
from the top down. What is so difficult for these mental midgets to
understand?

Perhaps it isn’t so much the absolute power that tickles their fancy as it is the
illusion of power. They’d seem to be more at home beating a lame horse than
in owning a racetrack, if you get my drift. Well, my point was more that these
elitists have done a piss-poor job at “managing” this whole mess.

They remind me of the grunts in the postal service mail centers who, when a
manager is needed in a pinch, step out of the ranks for one shift and put on a
tie (as if that somehow elicits some sense of shock and awe amongst the co-
workers) and proceed to ride herd over workers of their own caliber. If we were
being governed by an alien species, that’s one thing. That would be similar to
humans’ relationship with cattle or chickens, perhaps. But this is not that case.

What we have is what John Milton suggested when he referred to his elitist
problem as the “infantrie of stewes and brothels”. Elitists had become so
enamored with their positions that they thought nothing about their ability to
govern in the changing world. And we still have that problem today; people
want the job, the notoriety, the pay (or wealth), but they don’t want any of the
RESPONSIBILITY for the positions they continue to demand.

This piece from a Stanford review of John Locke on Rebellion and Regicide;
“A legitimate civil government seeks to preserve the life, health, liberty and
property of its subjects, insofar as this is compatible with the public good.
Because it does this it deserves obedience. An illegitimate civil government
seeks to systematically violate the natural rights of its subjects. It seeks to
make them illegitimate slaves. Because an illegitimate civil government does
this, it puts itself in a state of nature and a state of war with its subjects. The
magistrate or king of such a state violates the law of nature and so makes
himself into a dangerous beast of prey who operates on the principle that
might makes right, or that the strongest carries it. In such circumstances,
rebellion is legitimate as is the killing of such a dangerous beast of prey.”

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By Anarcissie, October 21, 2010 at 8:39 am Link to this comment

ardee—while it is correct to remind people that the cops read the Net too, it is pretty likely that none of those posting hot words about violent actions are going to do anything about them.  In fact most of them seem to have no idea what they’re talking about.

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By ardee, October 21, 2010 at 7:56 am Link to this comment

DavidByron, October 20 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment


ardee:
What exactly is tricky about the topic of class war?  I can’t think of anything tricky about it.

I realised that you were due a better response, posting at three AM ( I start work at 5) tends to lead to a less than consciencious effort.

Rather than a point by point rebuttal, and, by the by, a few of my points were dismissed by you rather easily (touche?) I will make a declarative statement, ending my presence in this matter.

If you believe that violence will resolve our problems you must, perforce, be a contributor to such violence, or at least willing to think about a contribution. Otherwise you are advocating sending others to do your work for you while you remain safe on your couch. How someone willing to participate in a violent action against the established order could actually say so in a public forum sort of boggles my mind and leads to all sorts of paranoid possibilities concerning your presence and your topic.

Have a real nice day,even it is spent in a cubicle in Virginia.

Out of here.

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By ardee, October 21, 2010 at 5:51 am Link to this comment

DavidByron, October 20 at 12:54 pm

I would love ot comment on your response, but I havent a clue as to what the heck you said….sorry.

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By DavidByron, October 20, 2010 at 9:17 pm Link to this comment

Agents provocateur are not really an issue because I am not talking about protests or protesting.  Infiltration might be more of an issue.  At any rate presumably all the infiltration by the elites thugs of peace groups and so on is in part because of the rational fear that one day the peasants will “get it”.  But as I said below it has begun already and it’s loners with guns not groups doing it.

As for the cops and soldiers, well this poster shows the relationship well I think:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Anti-capitalism_color-2.jpg

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 20, 2010 at 11:38 am Link to this comment

Look at the pandered proposal I just received from our “good buddy behind our man”

———-


Friend—

Remember when the GOP was in control?

They drove up record deficits to pass tax cuts for the wealthy at the expense of the middle class.

And now they want to do it again. If they take over Congress, Republicans have promised to go back to the “exact same agenda” that drove our economy into a ditch.

You can’t make this stuff up. The exact same agenda.

So I’m going to do everything I can to make sure they don’t get the chance. We have a plan in place and 13 days to get it done—but each and every one of us needs to do what we can today.

Please donate $3 today to help us keep them out of power.

For months, our opponents sat on the sidelines while you helped the President and our allies in Congress move America forward.

Republicans are still clutching that same political playbook.

And folks like Sharron Angle in Nevada, Ron Johnson in Wisconsin, and Tom Corbett in Pennsylvania want to go beyond the failed policies of the past. Backed by millions in special interest money, some Republicans want to cut the minimum wage, gut Social Security, and end Medicare as we know it.

But Barack and I don’t believe economic growth in America has to come at the expense of the middle class.

In fact, we believe we’re only making progress when hard-working families are doing better—and, with your help, we’re getting there.

Thanks to health insurance reform, no one will have to choose between keeping their home and getting the care they need.

Thanks to student loan reform, more parents can send their kids to college—even if it looked out of reach in years past.

Thanks to our investments in clean energy, entrepreneurs are creating jobs and writing a new energy future for this country.

That’s change we can all believe in. That’s change that doesn’t discriminate between Democrats, Republicans, or independents. That’s the kind of America I believed in growing up in Scranton and raising my boys in Delaware.

Barack and I are going to keep fighting for that America—and right now, you get to decide how this fight plays out.

Donate $3 or more today and help us finish strong:

https://donate.barackobama.com/CantGoBack

Thanks for all that you do,

Joe Biden

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 20, 2010 at 11:37 am Link to this comment

Whether out of mass madness or minute strategy, it is still dependent on instinct vs planned… or simply; non-violent types doing their work and violent types ( unfortunately ) doing their work… acting in self defense from oppression, for the spirit cannot be stifled.

There needs to come a moment, and I see it soon, where each person will do what they believe to be is ‘right’ and will act… instead of thinking about what ‘should’ be done by themselves or others… they will simply ACT.

Litmus test can be administered later.

As for the police officers and other ‘law’ over conscience enforcers… THEY are the one who need help seeing the carrot and the system for what it has become… and what it could be by community cohesion and ignoring theses shysters and their peddled tool of slavery, the FEDeral fiat.

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By BR549, October 20, 2010 at 11:26 am Link to this comment

Kulu,
..... and the only reason Israel ever made it as far as they have was because we USED them for a stepping stone into the Middle East. If it weren’t for US meddling, the Palestinians would have taken care of that blight a long time ago.

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By kulu, October 20, 2010 at 11:14 am Link to this comment

On violence,

Of course the violent way is not the preferable one but there comes a point when it becomes blindingly obvious that the peaceful way is not going to work.

What then?

Often violence by those seeking justice and the like is in response to violence perpetuated by the power structure - and not necessarily a planned response.

Violence has worked on occasions too. Just look at Africa. Kenya and the Mau Mau for one and Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, Mozambique etc.

On reflection I don’t actually thing either violence or non violent protest will work at least for progressive change in the US or most of the West. The system is too well entrenched and the population has been dumbed down too much.

A thought… What should the Palestinians do? Just lie back and take it. There is nothing for them to lose anymore and maybe one day that will be the case for Americans.

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By BR549, October 20, 2010 at 10:48 am Link to this comment

Byron,
I think one issue will be that the police (some of them anyway) have already
shown their true colors by dressing as protestors and actually instigating riots,
pushing the envelope beyond any natural evolution of the escalation. They
have the uniforms, the people do not, and it’s much easier for one of them to
infiltrate our ranks than vice versa. And they have more toys and, while it lasts,
more of OUR money to throw back at the population in the way of bullets,
Tasers, and tear gas.

All that said, these people still have to live somewhere, and they have families
living somewhere that I can’t imagine are going to be all that supportive while
they watch their neighbors losing their homes and resorting to robbing banks.
The logic just isn’t there to support any kind of win situation for anyone,
certainly not for those unconsciously supporting this crap.

Now, granted, the filth that supported all these wars in the past, like the
Rockefellers and the Bushes, these people will always be the vultures circling
overhead, waiting to pick on the carrion of civilization.

Our biggest issue is to learn how to recognize EACH OTHER so that we aren’t
picking each other apart with these petty little differences. We have a
Constitution in common and we should all remember that. It’s the glue that
binds us all, and when the government has stripped everything else from us,
we will still have that in common. The LEOs that have gotten so caught in this,
not the reasonable ones that are also good citizens, but the IQ-less meatheads
who had no sense of social connection other than what they learned through a
joy-stick, THOSE are the targets. They took an oath, as many of us have, to
support the Constitution except that it takes integrity and discipline to spend a
lifetime using that as a core belief. These thugs don’t have integrity and they
only show the true weakness of the system. If they had any integrity, their
conscience would not allow them to do what they are doing, flat and simple.

It brought down Rome, it brought down the Third Reich, and here the
Bilderburgers think they’ve somehow managed to reinvent the wheel.
(Loud buzzer sound inserted here!)

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 20, 2010 at 9:35 am Link to this comment

Shots fired at the Pentagon yesterday and elsewhere…

The heat is rising ladies and gentlemen.

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By DavidByron, October 20, 2010 at 8:54 am Link to this comment

ardee:
What exactly is tricky about the topic of class war?  I can’t think of anything tricky about it.

“Do you really believe CEO’s hanging from lampposts solves our problems?”

Duh.  What part of the word “war” in “class war” do you not get?  What major issues with class war do you see in a world where CEOs get hung from lampposts instead of the peasants?

In view of this weird lack of understanding of the whole war I suppose it’s not surprising that your other commets are sometimes a little odd.  Still I will attempt to address them.

“Conflating the individual and explosive anger of a few with an organized violent revolution is an apples and oranges sort of thing I would offer. “

Well I think you are exactly wrong.  But lose the word “organized” of course.  That was the whole point of my criticisim.  Those who dismissed the possibility of a violent resistance to elite rule did so on two false bases.  The first was that the elites’ thugs (the army, police etc) would easily deafeat the rebel army.  I point out that is false because the resistance wouldn’t be a conventional army but an insurgency.  An insurgency consists in large part of a lot of angry violent individuals and small incoherent cells.  A little organization might come later. 

“I do believe what you suggest ( or simply image) would have the effect of hastening the creeping fascism of this nation”

Now do you mean actual fascism?  in which case I disagree, or do you just mean authoritarian control by the elites?  in which case I agree, but would say that, well it’s a war so what do you expect?  If you fight harder you can expect them to also fight harder. 

“violence against those responsible would certainly hasten even more separation, and there is also the problem of identifying those really responsible”

The more they separate out the easier they are to identify.  Just look for the people behind the ring of hired thugs.  Not exactly complicated.  And there’s no need (or even desirability) of picking off only those at the “apex of decision making”.

“Perhaps some white folks saw that march of mostly black folks as threatening violence, many whites unfortunately see any gathering of blacks as such.”

Duh.  That’s why it worked.  That’s what I am saying.  A large crowd of angry black men marching on Washington DC is an obvious threat of violence.

“Non violence worked for Gandhi against the British, and the reference to Nazis is an irrelevance I offer.”

Well the nazis were of the same moral cloth as American elites and similarly had to put down some elements they didn’t like (communists, socialists, gays, Jehoveh’s Witnesses etc - oh right Jews too).  I just cannot imagine peaceful protests working on them can you?

As for Gandhi, I admit my history here isn’t that great but weren’t the British giving up all their colonies at that period of time?  Just after WW2?  I don’t recall non-violence movements in all the other colonies.  Besides which there was plenty of violent resistance in India too.

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By archivesDave, October 19, 2010 at 10:08 pm Link to this comment

Inside Job Trailer:
http://www.sonyclassics.com/insidejob/

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By archivesDave, October 19, 2010 at 9:28 pm Link to this comment

Napolean:
Thnx for the enlightening clip on the Toronto g20.

As I recall, Alex Jones was up there and made a report didn’t he?

All of this brings back memories of the huge WTO protest here in Seattle.

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By Anarcissie, October 19, 2010 at 8:41 pm Link to this comment

Violence will ‘work’.  The question is whether it will produce a desirable result.  The most efficient social instrument for producing violence is a highly militarized, highly repressive state.  That is why such states emerge in times of peril or disorder.  Once they take power, they are often very difficult to transform or get rid of, as witness the Soviet Union and the fascist states of mid-20th-century Europe.  However, many people enjoy violence and militarism for their own sakes, or believe they are intrinsically good, so from their point of view violence works very well.

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By David J. Cyr, October 19, 2010 at 5:01 pm Link to this comment

DavidByron said:

“Several people have repeated the mantra that non-violence is effective but I question this and would welcome a convincing explanation… I also think that much of the power of non-violence so-called is the implicit threat of violence inherent in non-violent movements.”

Close.

There would be no MLK Day today,
if there had not been a Malcolm X.

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By ardee, October 19, 2010 at 4:18 pm Link to this comment

(1) On the question of violence and non-violence.

The criticism that violence wouldn’t work and that Americans wouldn’t do it anyway are not valid.  Already in the recession you are seeing a very small number of Americans who have been made homeless or unemployed, grabbing a gun and shooting the people they hold immediately responsible for their situation.  Typically that is some middle management position like a worker at the local bank or a real estate agent.  The media have not highlighted this trend.  The elites and their agents have noticed it and taken action to protect themselves somewhat.

Conflating the individual and explosive anger of a few with an organized violent revolution is an apples and oranges sort of thing I would offer.

A violent revolt does not mean two armies fighting each other like the American Revolution.  It would mean asymmetric warfare targeting the elites and their agents.  Something like what is seen in Afghanistan and Iraq but no longer ten thousand miles away.  Not very pleasant for anyone involved on either side of course which is the whole point.

I do believe what you suggest ( or simply image) would have the effect of hastening the creeping fascism of this nation into a galloping sort.In Iraq and Afghanistan we see acts of violence against an invading army, perhaps even a crusade, and against a puppet govt. installed by that invader. An outcome of such would seem to be a greater separation of the classes with militarized communities of the wealthy, perhaps a sort of domestic green zone even in our major cities.

While the wealthy lead lives already rather separate from our “real lives” violence against those responsible would certainly hasten even more separation, and there is also the problem of identifying those really responsible. I suggest that very few indeed could name those at the apex of decision making, both political and corporate.

Several people have repeated the mantra that non-violence is effective but I question this and would welcome a convincing explanation.  It seems to me that in a war (this class war) it is not wise to unilaterally disarm and say to your enemy that you will not hurt them badly.  I also think that much of the power of non-violence so-called is the implicit threat of violence inherent in non-violent movements.  For example when Dr King got a large crowd of black people to march on Washington, was that not an implicit threat of violence?

To tackle the last point first, an emphatic no to your analogy. Perhaps some white folks saw that march of mostly black folks as threatening violence, many whites unfortunately see any gathering of blacks as such. I think a far more accurate description would be seeing democracy in action.

This class warfare is a tricky subject I fear, one in which I hesitate to take on. While I do see the rampant greed of the few destroying the system under which we live and willingly accept that perhaps that may actually be a definition of class warfare after all, but on the other end of the spectrum I think the great mass of Americans see it differently. I think most would argue that our system can be made to work, and for all classes, with a few rather fundamental changes.

The other thing is we must recall that this war is not non-violent at the moment.  Several hundred people die in it every day though mostly not in America of course.  The people we fight are happy to slaughter millions.  They have no conscience.  Would non-violence have worked against the Nazis?

Non violence worked for Gandhi against the British, and the reference to Nazis is an irrelevance I offer. Organized worldwide warfare is an entirely different matter than discussing an armed internal revolt against our capitalism gone wild. Though the culprit is the same.

As to the people we fight, I doubt many could name even a few. Do you really believe CEO’s hanging from lampposts solves our problems?

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 19, 2010 at 4:17 pm Link to this comment

I chose Napoleon as a moniker here for his historical significance.

He unfortunately did let his position and perceived power and risen position go to his head and it was all down hill when he made himself emperor ( becoming the very thing he opposed, duh ).

His intention to remove the royal tyranny was supported by the military and people, for nothing can happen without mass consensus and mass empathy to the reality of the people’s circumstances ( all of us make up this matrix, police, private businesses people, laborers, teachers at public or private agencies, etc ).

DoneHisPart… he did his part, at that time and for history to follow… although history’s recollecting the man is too manipulated to favor today’s power structure, and less TRUE HISTORY.

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 19, 2010 at 4:07 pm Link to this comment

We see the money changer’s scheme fall flat on its face folks!

Things of REAL value, such as people ( which they have attached a price to through the bond and our very selves as the ‘surety’ for that value / debt obligation.

Another thing of real value is the dirt under our feet which can be used to produce either bombs or food, house opulence or your family and things of real value.

And so forth.

Built upon the sand was the derivative of something that resembled something of value only for the cash-flow it ‘might’ blow off… which eventually, that ponzi scheme comes to an end as well.

That’s the slap-back of reality to the stone age we are faced with… for in order for the ‘higher ups’ to keep their positions, they must sift on the lower ranks… and in the game of capitalism, there is a loser… it is the chattel, the populous… YOU & I… although it is a sifting vampire, so subtle and mysterious.

Look at your dollar bill right now.

On the back, you see the SEAL of the U.S.A., Incorporated.

Do not corporations have seals distinguishing them and their charter from other companies?

Anyone here ever start a corporation? 

What do you suppose our charter was?  It has a name.

Regarding printing and managing our own money and not a private corporation called the FED> 

We The People of this side of the world decided LONG ago to have our ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES handle the management of the coin, of the coin press, and the weights and measures of said monies… it is in our Constitution, that’s what Kucinich is referring to.

Bernanke is NOT elected by us nor Congress, but appointed by the seat of Caesar to manage the chattel through the tool of slavery, the fiat… if anyone has been following Amerikan history closely.

The office of the president has been ‘officially’ and through law, altered to resemble a seat of inheritance and to the highest bidder on the planet… how else can the lies be continually committed and the people duped again and again?

Why the mosque at ground zero?

Why Obama bowing to the Shiek?

Why has the FED’s financiers exchanged hands over the years through them with the financing to balance the house of cards?

It is clear, with Osama safe in Pakistan, and the rouse to invade Iraq still a deniable memory for everyone… we see not one culprit in the usurpation of the nation / states of the world… but all those culprits still working hard to further their cause.

Those who believe they are something else for their position in the food chain from Caesar will have to decide between God and money soon.

Police brutality in the ‘name of the law’ and not their conscience, but their allegiance to getting that paycheck next week…. for they are PLUGGED into that matrix.

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By archivesDave, October 19, 2010 at 12:59 pm Link to this comment

Napolean:
“United We Stand.. Divided We Fall.

Community.”

SOoo VERY TRUE!
Unfortunately many in and out of our country (and a few on this site), would rather see what remains of our republic destroyed, than even consider TRYING to listen or understand one another.
They prefer to ‘pigeon hole’ everyone and everything
into a particular category and continue on with membership in a certain ‘choir’.

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By garth, October 19, 2010 at 12:37 pm Link to this comment

I am not saying that the Gold standard is the answer.  Maybe a unique ‘Digital Dollar’ or Kucinich’s idea of the government controlling the currency is. 

The threats of a Debtor world have been borne out.

We need something different if we are to survive.

The onliest things worth anything in the world are natural resorces and labor.  So the question I have to axe is this, why are the ones who labaor for other’s profit left out in the cold?  And did the Biznessmen ever entertain the idea of finiteness.

GMAC is going forward with its foreclosures along with the Bank of America.  (BofA sponsors a program to take care of feral cats, locallly.  They are trying to be big in the community and jaspers in the national scene.)

GMAC gave up autos for finance.  (GE gave up manufacturing for finance.  $100 a share they promised.  Why aren’t heads rolling?) 

GM stopped producing competitive cars and started issuing questionable loans.  They never gave up the opportunity to do the wrong thing at the wrong time.  Now, GM’s business is finance not cars.

They follow the Dale Carnegie teachings of how to win friends and influence people.  Which are, I guess, kick ‘em out of their houses and screw the government.

A two pronged winner in our society.

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By garth, October 19, 2010 at 12:06 pm Link to this comment

“Fiat currency.

It is a NOTE.

Debt instrument.

Fractional Reserve Lending.

Printing of this fiat paper money WITHOUT equal balance shown in labor, productivity or something tangible of value…. otherwise, it impoverishes those who must ‘work’ for it and enriches those who ‘own’ it or peddle it for their owners.”
————————————————————
Napolean DoneHis Part hit it right on the head. 
Check out, “Surviving the Cataclysm” and the 10 or 11 points of this takeover.

Fiat money without access to gold as a safety valve is one of the points listed.

And you think you had it bad.  You ain’t seen nothin’ yet.

BTW, What does you name Napolean DoneHis Part mean or refer to?

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By garth, October 19, 2010 at 11:09 am Link to this comment

As an unemployed, NYC construction worker and Tea Party enthusiast said in a street interview when he was asked about Social Security, “I’m not putting my money in some “Pononzi Scream.”

The law of gravity is on their side.  Shit flows downhill. 

The ‘March to Nowhere’ is under way.  A journey of a thousand years backwards keeps trudging.

Who’s more powerful?  They or history?

Right now, it looks like a toss up.

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 19, 2010 at 11:08 am Link to this comment

I was just thinking about M.L.K. today and how he spoke the truth as he could best describe and understand it… and he was murdered.

He was instigating ( not his intention nor his message, yet byproducts are always produced from ACTION ) those around him by supporting the people’s plight… for they have been rendered helpless and harrassed.. yet again.

The sifting of the masses I call it… periodically and from time to time.. like a shake-up the game while playing… and the new rules you’ll find out soon enough, after you’ve lost points, position or profits… or ALL.

It is called slavery by-way of money manipulation… plain and simple, yet we don’t know the first thing about the money to begin with.

Fiat currency.

It is a NOTE.

Debt instrument.

Fractional Reserve Lending.

Printing of this fiat paper money WITHOUT equal balance shown in labor, productivity or something tangible of value…. otherwise, it impoverishes those who must ‘work’ for it and enriches those who ‘own’ it or peddle it for their owners.

http://SmartPeopleSmartMoney.com says it all.

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By kulu, October 19, 2010 at 10:20 am Link to this comment

Careful DavidByron the FBI, the CIA, the Homeland Security people, your local cop, and an array of private security people are probably monitoring your every move and may be about to mount a sting operation against you.

Don’t go anywhere near the Middle East for the next 10 or 20 years or so until this “terrorism” thing has played itself out. You might be “rendered”.

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By StuartH, October 19, 2010 at 9:56 am Link to this comment

Seems to me that a stupefying ray is being aimed at the earth and this column is one place where the results of this are showing up,
among many. 

I think the effects will get worse.

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By DavidByron, October 19, 2010 at 9:31 am Link to this comment

Excuse me: it was kulu not “kuku” I was replying to.  I figured I’d probably have more people willing to argue the case of non-violence since it was uniformly supported in this thread before I raised objections to it.  Most of the objections were included in the one section so I will repost just that section.  Non-violence doesn’t make much sense to me and I don’t see it working anywhere, (eg Palestine or the anti-war marches) so I’d appreciate someone explaining its merits.

(1) On the question of violence and non-violence.

The criticism that violence wouldn’t work (because the elites control the armed forces) and that Americans wouldn’t do it anyway (because they are fat dumb and happy) are not valid.  Already in the recession you are seeing a very small number of Americans who have been made homeless or unemployed, grabbing a gun and shooting the people they hold immediately responsible for their situation.  Typically that is some middle management position like a worker at the local bank or a real estate agent.  The media have not highlighted this trend.  The elites and their agents have noticed it and taken action to protect themselves somewhat.

A violent revolt does not mean two armies fighting each other like the American Revolution.  It would mean asymmetric warfare targeting the elites and their agents.  Something like what is seen in Afghanistan and Iraq but no longer ten thousand miles away.  Not very pleasant for anyone involved on either side of course which is the whole point.

Several people have repeated the mantra that non-violence is effective but I question this and would welcome a convincing explanation.  It seems to me that in a war (this class war) it is not wise to unilaterally disarm and say to your enemy that you will not hurt them badly.  I also think that much of the power of non-violence so-called is the implicit threat of violence inherent in non-violent movements.  For example when Dr King got a large crowd of black people to march on Washington, was that not an implicit threat of violence?

The other thing is we must recall that this war is not non-violent at the moment.  Several hundred people die in it every day though mostly not in America of course.  The people we fight are happy to slaughter millions.  They have no conscience.  Would non-violence have worked against the Nazis?

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 19, 2010 at 9:30 am Link to this comment

He may have given up because it’s true.

Our Amerikan Empire is an all consuming power trip the world’s never seen… it is ROME, cloaked in the red, white and blue.

We are the surety for your debts…

We’ve been financially dependent on the royals and their operators ( chattel managers ) since early last century.

Why was Amerika’s gold seized?

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By DavidByron, October 19, 2010 at 9:21 am Link to this comment

Why don’t you point out what difference you see then?  You just claimed the difference between actual Kremlinology and figuring out the Washington DC lot was that the Soviets (insert various crimes here).  I replied pointing out that the US administration commits worse crimes than the Soviets ever did. 

And then you gave up.

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By DavidByron, October 19, 2010 at 9:18 am Link to this comment

Kuku:
“You made one statement in your first post that confused me somewhat. You said; “The people we fight are happy to slaughter millions.” Please clarify, who are the people we fight?”

I just meant the elites and their agents and their thugs.

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By StuartH, October 19, 2010 at 9:15 am Link to this comment

DavidByron:

To me, people who claim to be unable to see such distinctions are just not eligible to be considered serious.

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 19, 2010 at 9:11 am Link to this comment

United We Stand.. Divided We Fall.

Community.

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By DavidByron, October 19, 2010 at 9:05 am Link to this comment

StuartH:
“There is a difference.  One guy I knew had a bad scar on his leg from acid the KGB threw on him.  A friend of his was killed by them.  There was a real environment of murder and violent reprisal.  One persone I knew, a poet, was locked up in one of those insane asylums that was really a prison for dissident thinkers.”

A difference without much distinction.  Your own government has murdered millions of people, lest you forget.  Imprisoned millions, tortured and terrorised too.

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By archivesDave, October 18, 2010 at 4:27 pm Link to this comment

“Keep watching Glenn Beck, Bill O’Reilly and the MSM for future clues as to how it really works.”
And don’t forget to send in your boxtop and buy LOTS of turnips.

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By garth, October 18, 2010 at 3:14 pm Link to this comment

“So how about instead of lecturing us on our naivety, you actually try to explain it to us if you believe you have this secret knowledge that explains how things really are and why politicians really behave that way”

Thanx, Jim

You too can get this secret knowledge.  Send a $5.00 bill and a box top of your favorite cereal to:

Box 281 Apple

Keep watching Glenn Beck, Bill O’Reilly and the MSM for future clues as to how it really works.

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By Bklynguy, October 18, 2010 at 2:20 pm Link to this comment

Chief Strong bow was a Jew from Long Island.


Are you sure? I thought he was an Italian from Nutley, NJ and George “The Animal” Steele was a teacher from Detroit.

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By Bklynguy, October 18, 2010 at 2:10 pm Link to this comment

So how about instead of lecturing us on our naivety, you actually try to explain it to us if you believe you have this secret knowledge that explains how things really are and why politicians really behave that way

Here’s how it works. Say someone runs for Congress. There are many union workers are in the district so he/she promises to push legislation like Card Check to make it easier to join unions

He gets elected and is quite serious about his pro-union bill and honestly wants to fulfill this promise. Then he encounters a powerful congressman on the committee overseeing the legislation he wants to pass who says: “Fine. I’ll support your bill and bring along some of my friends but I’m in a rural district and I need your support for price supports for my farmer constituents.” Our Congressman agrees and both bills get passed and then our congressmna gets slammed for voting to keep food prices high,  for wasting tax money on agribusiness and someone accuses him of accepting some sort of goodie from Archer Daniels Midland

Or our congressman refuses to make the deal because it will keep food prices high and he has low-income constituents and also does not want tax money going to big farmers and as a consequence his union bill dies in committee and he’s accused of betrayal. What the hell is he supposed to do? No matter what he does, someone is going to get pissed off and say “Another typical slimeball politician.”

The system does work but “work” is defined as givng every interest group its say. Some groups have far more “say” than others but most get some say and those who are elected but refuse to make deals and compromise with all these groups may have the luxury of claiming moral purity but are completely ineffective and they will not be re-elcted.

I’ve encountered some real slime buckets in politics but most I’ve met really do take their jobs seriously, try to help their constituents and try to fulfill their promises. But the necessity of constantly having to make deals and compromises and the constant need to raise funds wears one down and gives those who don’t know how the system works the impression that “they’re all no good.” I’d like to know how many here have actually run for office, how many here have tried to legislate or govern? Try it sometime and see how it goes.

As to third parties, they now are a waste of time. Let’s learn from the Teabaggers. They are working within the GOP because, while they’re ignorant hate-filled fanatics, they are not stupid. They know setting up a right-wing 3rd party will do nothing but divide the Right and help us. We cannot be foolish. Work within the Dems to push them in a progressive direction as the Teabaggers work to push the GOP further to the Right.

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 18, 2010 at 11:31 am Link to this comment

Good stuff Garth, thanks for sharing that!  Says allot.

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By garth, October 18, 2010 at 10:25 am Link to this comment

I guess it’s with experience one learns to deal with the vicissitudes of life on whichever side of th tracks or whatever one has volunteered to do.

During Vietnam, for example, bill boards on Army bases wouuld show pictures of Asians being bopped on their heads with rifle butts.  The sign would read, ‘Bong the Cong’

The biggest problem the Army faced in WWII is that most servicemen would not fire their rifles.  About 80% in WWI never fired them.  How are you going to win a war if you won’t kill?

Vietnam used the psychology of the day and turned the Army on itself.  Humans don’t usually do those things, and they don’t want to.

Hence the all volunteer Army.  A small percentage of Americans are ‘natural born killers’  others are probablistic and will take the chance to enlist, in the chance that they will return and enjoy the benefits, as advertised.

If one is trained to react appropriately to a loaded gun pointed at them, how does that relate, in numbers or percentages, to the training one could receive in disarming or reducing the odds of violence?

Afghans kill Americans.  Iraqis kill Americans.  Pakistanis kill Americans.  Why?

Because we are invading their homeland.  That’s why?  We’d do the same in spades.

When I was a child, I shot a 16 gauge shotgun as a child.

As a man, I don’t want to see a 16 gauge shotgun again.


A real tough guy I knew had a gun pointed at him by another Army recruit in Vietnam.  He looked the guy right in the eye and said, “You better shoot to kill, cause I am going to stick that .45 up your ass. - 30 -

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By BR549, October 18, 2010 at 9:27 am Link to this comment

Garth,
Jesse’s format, quite obviously, is meant to bring these complex political issues
to the blue collar segment of society that would have normally just changed
the channel to watch the WWF over a case of beer. His format contains a
limited number of slowly advancing topics that are repeated over and over
again.

Watching “Conspiracy Theory” is a bit frustrating for some people, who can
absorb 100 times as much content, but which TV formats are there now that do
any of this material? Basically, none. O’Reilly is an arrogant ass and Beck is
having to play catch up as his ratings are plunging.  So we take what we can get
and at least be thankful that even the less educated folks are getting to
understand what is happening with their votes. If the blue collar sect had to
listen to Noam Chomsky or Paul Chapman, they’d get put to sleep (no offense
to them), so we should see Jesse’s delivery method as a stroke of genius in
order to reach millions of more people that would otherwise have been left in
the dark.

And Garth, some people go into your ‘plasma state of consciousness’ while
others panic and run like sheep. Then there are those who are able to still
stand and deal with the situation, those who aren’t thrown into a ‘deer in the
headlights’ state or running around wildly with their arms flailing everywhere.
That’s the difference I was referring to when I spoke of Jesse.

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 18, 2010 at 7:55 am Link to this comment

Jesse was making a living after being a Vietnam Vet and being disenchanted with what he saw and heard over there… what veteran of war CANNOT understand and sympathize?

He did his song and dance working for a living… and we’ve seen the man grow up, haven’t we?

He’s lost the backlash of the military pinch.. without losing the gusto, the pledge and the corp.

If Jesse turns out to be a disappointment; if he turns out to simply roll over like the rest when he makes the office…. I’m MOVING! 

For if I get in that office, I won’t last 20 minutes…. they will be firebombing me out of there for I would FIRE EVERYONE and start over!

Make all those shyster incumbents and hired hands WORK for theirs like we ALL HAVE TO!

Talk about ruffling feathers… I won’t be doing that, I’ll be plucking these ducks!

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By garth, October 18, 2010 at 7:45 am Link to this comment

I think Jesse’s lates Tru TV show is a good one for recently recovered alcoholics and drug addicts.  Facing death shouldn’t be the measure of a man.  We all do sooner or later. 

I’ve had loaded guns pointed at me.  I think I went into what could best be described as a ‘plasma’ state of consciousness. 

Later, it was, “Holy shit! I’m not going back there again.”

I liked Jesse’s last show when they descended into the missile hole.  Just the two of them…... and a camera man. 

Jesse goes anywhere to uncover conspiracies.  Just his team of investigators ........and the camera man.

Wrestling was so real when he was in the ring.  Though my friend’s son like Stone Cold Steve Austin, I longed for the return of Killer Kowalski, Yukon Eric, Antonino ‘Argentina’ Rocca, and Edouard Carpentier.  Chief Strong bow was a Jew from Long Island.

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By archivesDave, October 17, 2010 at 3:44 pm Link to this comment

Ventura in 2012:
New interview with Napolitano:
http://geraldcelentechannel.blogspot.com/2010/10/jesse-ventura-america-will-have-another.html

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By archivesDave, October 17, 2010 at 11:45 am Link to this comment

Napolean and BR:
Sage words guys!

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By BR549, October 17, 2010 at 10:54 am Link to this comment

Napolean,

Jesse has faced death, as have I on several occasions. Most people have not.
What makes a person is who they are is when they are faced with that situation.
Far too many people, the sheeple, react as part of a herd and run helter-skelter
right over the cliff along with everyone else. For those who have faced that
situation and realized that there actually was a higher part of themselves
guiding them and that it was only our physicality that was threatened, and not
our essential being, it is all about connection. Unfortunately for too many,
those are just words.

John Haglun, presidential candidate in 2000, would have been aware of this for
totally different reasons, but he was still aware. No one had a clue what Haglun
was getting at because they were too busy doing their “Chicken Little” thing.

Jesse knows this too. 99% of our legislature is clueless and they are still supporting the two party system of Democrats and Republicans. As long as people keep banging their heads on the wall, they will continue to keep buying the Tylenol.

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 17, 2010 at 9:32 am Link to this comment

Ventura is a real person… not polished, pedigreed or ‘trained’ in lying and being sly.. he shoots from the hip and is off the cuff.

One challenge I see would be how unusual that honesty would be for the masses… a REAL PERSON saying REAL WORDS…. it may be too much…. thus he’ll be rendered ‘controversial’ and ‘too whatever’ by people who are USED to being lied and deceived…. kind of like a bad marriage where a poor woman is USED to a husband telling her she’s stupid, ugly and good for nothing…

If she gets away from him… finds a decent man… will she be able to believe the new guy when he sincerely tells her how beautiful she is, how much he appreciates her….?

She’ll doubt, for she’s used to the abuse as ‘normal.’

Another thing, would Jesse be NOT afraid and go toe to toe with the money changers!?

He may lose his life, as those before him have… he knows this already…. question is, is he afraid?  Or, what does he have to lose?

Fear of prison, torture or worse keeps many from opening their mouths… especially when they have much to lose.

I see Jesse as NOT afraid of much… but will his stradegy work?  Will those around him DO WHAT IS RIGHT instead of turning a blind eye and taking the checks? ( unbelievable to be saying this in regards to this Amerika we have… but that is what HAS HAPPENED ).

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By garth, October 17, 2010 at 9:08 am Link to this comment

While the Democrats are floundering, the fronts for Republican Conservatives are moving past the next election and making plans to react to the report by the ‘Deficit’ Commission due this December.  The commission is co-chaired by Alan “Crazy Al” Simpson and Erskine ‘the Toilet’ Bowles.

A researcher in Pension plans at George Mason U. appeared on on C-SPAN this morning and in her final statement said the new pensions will Defined Retirement Plan (DRP).  That’s where workers and companies contribute to an account.  The workers can take the accounts with them when they change jobs.

From a reading on my O!-Silly-Scope, and I think they already do that. It’s called 401k and most 401k accounts were depleted in 2008 and haven’t regained their losses. 

The companies contribution’s were matching funds up to three percent (3%).  (Gee, they didn’t have to go all out!)

Or maybe, they mean Social Security and drastic changes to it.

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By Anarcissie, October 17, 2010 at 7:49 am Link to this comment

If Washington isn’t available, there’s always good king Wenceslaus.

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By BR549, October 17, 2010 at 7:18 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie, October 17 at 1:58 am
“Still looking for the Good King, are we?”

For those that don’t know,  Jesse has a passion for surfing. Having had the
same obsession for going on 45 years, I know EXACTLY what he’s talking about
when he refers to his love for it.

Surfing is, believe it or not, a religious experience, or rather, a spiritual one. It
combines meditation of a sort with commitment, and the realization that each
wave was formed from the multitude of wavelets from wind gusts from
thousands of miles away. They formed as the result of a natural cooperation, as
water particles each jumped on board the collective wavetrain, so to speak, to
form something larger than themselves. The whole process of surfing is really
one of being connected with nature and well God, really. If Jesse saw this post,
he would know EXACTLY what I was talking about. Not all surfers see that, but
those that do will tell you same thing.

Anyone who is serious about it does not do drugs and they have to stay
physically fit, although there is an element that does do drugs and who haven’t
realized that connection yet. It’s a discipline, like yoga or meditation; a means
to stay connected with something larger than ourselves and I know Jesse knows
this.

Jesse has experience in government and he knows how to not get intimidated,
so unless we are operating under the misconception that a candidate can only
function well because they know how to dive into the cesspool of human
behavior along with the next politician, then I feel sorry for all those who have
so little hope in humankind.

So why would I bother to vote for some asshole like Bush or Obama, who talk
the talk but have no concept of the larger picture? Ron Paul doesn’t surf, but he
has developed his own discipline and connectedness through a different course
in life. Show me another politician who understands that. I can name perhaps a
half dozen ......... period. The rest of them are dumpster fodder.

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By ardee, October 17, 2010 at 4:22 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind, October 14 at 4:06 pm

Shame on you then. All I asked for was information you claimed you had provided, but you and I both know you ducked instead.

Rather than defending your Party you defame the critics thereof, nice work…NOT. Almost my first post here was a question to you wondering why you responded with such vehemence to those who take an opposing view. You havent changed for the better, that’s for certain.

Whine all you wish, tell “mommy” the bad man is picking on you. The rest of us will try to conduct adult discourse either over your head or around you. Sorry you cannot participate.

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By archivesDave, October 17, 2010 at 1:38 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie:
“Still looking for the Good King, are we?”

Absolutely bro….I think most of us now see who the true enemy is and the parade congregate is forming.
‘King’ George (Washington) was dragged kicking and screaming to the front of the parade and we may have
to do the same thing with Ventura.

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By Anarcissie, October 16, 2010 at 9:58 pm Link to this comment

Still looking for the Good King, are we?

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 16, 2010 at 6:06 pm Link to this comment

Here here BR549, they will have their day.

Ventura is the ticket…

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By BR549, October 16, 2010 at 5:31 pm Link to this comment

Dave,
If only Obama had done some fireside chats and told the American public the
truth. So many people would still be behind him. But he lied his ass off and
now is just seen as one more freakin’ corporatist puppet.

Jesse may not have a lot of polish, but he has more integrity than all the
senators and representatives in DC combined.

When people adhere to the Constitution, it’s like adhering to the bible; not the
chapter and verse, but the intention. And all the major religions all point in the
same direction; toward greater love and human understanding. Those assholes
in Washington have no concept of either, or that embracing those is the key to
making it all work.

I’m not a religious person, but when these slouches in DC can’t understand the
need for adherence to a higher ideal other than global dominance, they have
become the terrorists by authorizing the murder of people across the globe
and the outright seizure of their sovereign lands.

Bill, Hilary, the entire Bush Family, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Geittner,
Soros, Rockefeller, and the entire Bilderburg family of dysfunctional
misanthropes; they all have a date with a firing squad.

Our species is capable of so much cooperation and positive development and
yet these assholes aren’t happy unless one of them is always there to put a turd
in the punch bowl. What a sick and twisted gene pool.

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 16, 2010 at 2:04 pm Link to this comment

The people WILL wake up!!!!

Ventura is exactly what we need at the helm for 4 years.

He will need to break the image of Amerika….. can’t believe that snooty interviewer…. I guess assume most media personalities know about omission… but can they be so silly as to believe the syphilis and Tuskegee thing to be only a few bad apples?

And you saw him IMMEDIATELY defend Halliburton with “oh, they’re not here to defend themselves.”

Stinking shill, loving his cozy little latte before putting on his make up for his song and dance, his minstrel medley?

thanks Dave, keep digging it up brother… can’t fight the truth…. only be broken by it.

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By archivesDave, October 16, 2010 at 1:35 pm Link to this comment

Ventura For President 2012?...

Here’s a recent interview clip. 
He is certainly telling it like it is.

I do have reservations about his ability to perform
long term though in the ‘Global Ring’...
Notice the subtle Parkinson symptoms.
Shades of Muhammad Ali???

Perhaps too much head banging in the ring of the past?

http://www.youtube.com/v/OVTCJh092qY?fs=1&hl=en_US&rel=0

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 14, 2010 at 9:45 pm Link to this comment

StuartH, I started cracking up with what you said… spot on.

And Gomorrah is the proof that Sodomy happened… lol.

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By kulu, October 14, 2010 at 8:21 pm Link to this comment

David Byron,

Thank you for your well thought out comments. I agree with just about everything you say. I am particularly in agreement with your thoughts on violent vs non-violent action and have been wanting, for some time, to say something along the lines you have about it. I think it is much much harder nowadays to achieve anything at all progressive through non-violent actions.

The other side has grown a lot more sophisticated in their responses to non-violent actions and is quite willing to use violence itself. So what is left for the progressive justice seeker - just take the casualties (death, imprisonment, disappearances etc) or fight back?

You made one statement in your first post that confused me somewhat. You said; “The people we fight are happy to slaughter millions.” Please clarify, who are the people we fight?

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By Inherit The Wind, October 14, 2010 at 12:06 pm Link to this comment

ardee, October 14 at 1:12 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind, October 13 at 1:45 pm

Easily proven, show me, by cut and paste, where you have answered a single one of my criticisms of your beloved party…waiting with bated breath.
***************

I’ve turned it over to TM.

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By garth, October 14, 2010 at 11:41 am Link to this comment

If Sodomy is up the bum, what is Gomorrah?

They have succeeded in separating the Human experience from reality. 

I went to a wake of a relative recently and most of my generation were there along with their offspring.

Lo and Behold!  the Democrats of yore who became Reagan Democrats 30 years ago are now set in their ways.  They’ve done well, thanks to unions and progressive educational programs, but now they are worried.  Worried about taxes.  About the decay of education.  About the deficit, even though no one could tell me what the deficit was, how it was arrived at or what it meant.

Young ‘uns, young guns who’ve risen to a certain level in the corporate, free enterprise economy are worried about paying their employees too much because of the bottom line cost.  50 grand here for wages, 40 grand for overhead.  Where does it all go?

If there is a God, he’s like Justice.  As Lenny Bruce said, “In the halls of Justice, the only Justice is in the halls.”  To see Good, you might have to look closely, perhaps between the wavelengths of the eye.

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By christian96, October 14, 2010 at 10:43 am Link to this comment

StuartH—-This is the Twilight Zone.  We people
from truthdig.com are aliens.  We come from planet
Crayola.  We have been sent here to add color to
your life.  The next time you see a rainbow just
remember Crayola.  We will help you understand the
human experience.  Weird creatures these humans.
They seem to be obsessed with power, money, sex,
drugs, and rock & roll.  As one of our earlier
brothers, Jerry Lee Lewis, said, “There is a lot
of shaking going on.”  Just hold on.  It’s about
to come to a head.  I am just completing my report
on humans to be sent back to headquarters on Crayola.
The leaders aren’t going to be happy with the
black and white issues among humans.  They will send
more aliens with more color. Over and out!

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By StuartH, October 14, 2010 at 9:19 am Link to this comment

This discussion could be a model for a script like a Twilight Zone episode.

I check this out every once in a while because email reminders about threads will
keep going for months and months. 

Over time, I get the impression of the same people locked in on the same
arguments over and over and over, in the Eternal Waffle House with the same
stale Maxwell House Coffee, probably warmed over from the day before by a
really cheap hash house cook. 

No new information really comes into it.  No new experience.  It comes across like a retirement center for aging leftists.  Could use some better oxygen.

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By ardee, October 14, 2010 at 9:12 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind, October 13 at 1:45 pm

Easily proven, show me, by cut and paste, where you have answered a single one of my criticisms of your beloved party…waiting with bated breath.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 14, 2010 at 3:24 am Link to this comment

Christian:

Thanks for your input. I’ll give it all the due consideration it merits.

Webster’s got the definition from the legal definition.

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By christian96, October 13, 2010 at 10:52 pm Link to this comment

NapoleonDoneHisPart—-You are very astute.

Inherit The Wind—-Lighten up.  I’ve been reading
some of your other comments.  I sense almost a paranoia where you think other people don’t like
you.  Even if they don’t like you, so what?  Getting
upset will only ruin your health.  That’s one of the
reason Jesus said to love your enemies.  He knew
what hate and being emotionally distraught will do to
your health.  Perhaps, the following comments to
Shenonymous on another site will add clarity:

  By christian96, October 14 at 2:02 am


Shenonymous—-No, I’m literally not a yoyeur.  In
the context with which I used “sodomy” I guess
watching most of us getting screwed in the ass by
our elected representatives sort of makes me a
yoyeur. I was suprised Merrian-Webster included
oral sex between a man and woman as part of Sodomy.
I can’t find that in the Bible.  It would be interesting to know how Merrian-Webster arrived
at that conclusion. I wonder if they include oral
sex between a married couple(man and woman)? Not
clear.  What would give you the idea I’m obsessed
with Sodomy.  I was reading a book the other day
that included the word “sodomy.”  I decided to go
to my computer in search of a definition.  It’s
not clear in the Bible.  When the men of Sodom came
to Lot’s home because they wanted to “know” the
men(two angels) and Lot answered, “Not so.  Take my
daughters.”  It is assumed they wanted to have
sexual relations with the men but that’s as specific
as it gets.  It’s also not specific about “men being
with men.”  Leviticus 18:22 reads, “Man shall not
lie with man as with woman.  It is an abomination.”

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By Inherit The Wind, October 13, 2010 at 8:11 pm Link to this comment

Maybe, but if so, have a good laugh!

What would our Brit friends say? “Sod a chimp for a bunch of ba-noh-nas.”

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 13, 2010 at 6:02 pm Link to this comment

christian96, that’s hilarious and ITW missed the point completely I think.. as C96 points out, the lubricant in this case is oil over green, oil based economy by-way of the plethora of petro products possible…. to our further pollution.

And maybe a sly way of saying the verbal deluge between arguments by ‘grown ups’ and instigators abounding.. verbally poking at one another.

I know I can react sensitively at times and read into these words typed herein too much and attach my personal feelings… since none of us can hear the delivery of our typing, nor can we absorb nuance or intention.

I think some folks pull your leg ITW.. on purpose and get the rouse out of you.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 13, 2010 at 11:09 am Link to this comment

Christian:

The problem is that many states didn’t differ between consensual sodomy and non-consensual sodomy, ie, rape (although legally it’s something else). This allowed Georgia to prosecute two gay men it found engaging in sodomy when police broke into the wrong house—and it made a good way to cover up their incompetence. 

By 1982, some states had made the differentiation.  For example, North Carolina, in its presumptive sentencing guidelines, provide the identical penalties for 1st degree sodomy as it did for 1st degree rape.  2nd degrees were the same as well.  What defined 1st and 2nd degree was the level of violence against the victim.  Therefore, by defining a 1st and 2nd degree sodomy, akin to 1st and 2nd degree rape, it was impossible to prosecute consensual behavior between adults.

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By christian96, October 13, 2010 at 10:28 am Link to this comment

Definition of SODOMY
: anal or oral copulation with a member of the same or opposite sex; also : copulation with an animal

                    Merriam-Webster

As I contemplated this definition I couldn’t help
ask myself, “Self, are politicians in Washington
sodomizing the American public?”  The good news is
if they are at least they are using oil in the
process.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 13, 2010 at 9:58 am Link to this comment

Napoleon:

I know how this will end. Unfortunately I’ve been through it a few times.  TM will be forced to step in.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 13, 2010 at 9:45 am Link to this comment

Ardee.
Just stop lying already. I’ve answered your points numerous times, you just didn’t like the answers.

Tough shit. You don’t like the answers so you respond like a spoiled brat. And your abuse continues.

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By kulu, October 13, 2010 at 9:37 am Link to this comment

bhamwa Oct 7 12.29pm

I beg to differ. The mandatory preferential voting system in Australia, I think forces many voters to choose which of the two major corporate financed parties to put last and which second last on the ballot. As long as we have a two party system beholden to rich corporate finances with open revolving doors much like in a America we will go nowhere and continue following that country into Afghanistan, Iraq and wherever next they chose to venture. We are very much like America in many ways and like them have lost all our manufacturing sector, our media is biased and corporatized our universities and other educational institutions are losing state funding and increasingly relying on corporate funding to make do and we seem unable to do anything about climate change or to tax super profits earned by mining corporations from exploiting our ever-available non-renewable resources. We are not yet as bad as the US but that’s more a matter of luck than good judgment or intent by those in power. In our foreign relations ethical considerations are positively shunned.

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By ardee, October 13, 2010 at 6:46 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind, October 12 at 3:56 pm

Far from my last word. As long as you duck fact after fact and post crap about personalities in place of logic and truth I will continue to note your inability to defend your own loyalties to that awful betrayal party as well as your own constant insulting of those with whom you apparently havent the intellect to compete.

As I have stated previously, and on numerous occasions, you fail miserably to respond to my carefully listed reasons why I criticize the democrats, instead posting stupid and childish insult after insult, both against me, against progressives, against Nader supporters, against, in fact, everyone who dares not follow your unstated and unexplained reasons for supporting your own political choices.

From my first entry into this forum I noted you insulting someone or other, and you havent stopped yet. That I give you back what you offer me offends you, as it would a blind little spoiled brat. Good for the goose good for the gander.

All you have to do is respond to a question with an honest and sincere answer, logic might help as well. But this is beyond you apparently. I wonder how you adopted your loyalty to democrats when you cannot even begin to explain it? Oh, excepting to blame all progressives for the failures of your party, ironic in that democrats silenced progressive voices within it some time ago.

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By BR549, October 13, 2010 at 5:49 am Link to this comment

Napoleon,
Being a Mason does not automatically make anyone a part of the problem. Being a member of an organization that tends to consolidate a small group of misanthropes for the purposes of personal gain; that can be a problem in the Girl Scouts or the church.

This had been brought up on another thread but my grandfather was a 32nd degree Mason and his motives had nothing to do with what your suggesting. There are some of the problem people who also happen to be Masons, but not all Masons are part of the problem; certainly not Ron Paul.

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, October 12, 2010 at 7:58 pm Link to this comment

Gentleman, what are we achieving by this typical word abuse is further separation from cohesive discourse and instead it silences honest dissenters of this modern Chattel System / Economic System / Rule By Money?

What’ on the ticket for a viable THIRD PARTY?

-VENTURA / PAUL?

-VENTURA / SCHIFF?

-PAUL / VENTURA?

PAUL / SCHIFF?

-PAUL / SCHIFF / VENTURA?


How about that? 

Minister of Finance ( Schiff )

Minister of Law ( Paul )

Minister of Justice ( Ventura )


I think Paul may be disqualified for his membership in the Masons… yeap, and the certain discourse coming from his son is an overflow of a young heart…

For in this article he seems to relate ‘boorish’ behaviour with race…. and the interviewer mentions ‘black’ people.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/20/rand-paul-tells-maddow-th_n_582872.html

So maybe it could be:

VENTURA / SCHIFF.

And that would be one guy who made it to governor ON HIS OWN and is NOT a HIRED HAND.

Nor is Schiff.. for he is all about his own business and yet is working into Connecticut to straighten things out…. did he win yet?

Schiff’s only burn may be Tea Party affiliation… yet makes good points on the economy:

http://the-classic-liberal.com/peter-schiff-for-senate-2010/

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By Inherit The Wind, October 12, 2010 at 11:56 am Link to this comment

ardee, October 12 at 12:59 pm Link to this comment

To all my fellow “Nader Natterers”

I would ask that we all take a moment to consider and mourn the passing of ITW as a reasonable and sane human being desirous of debating opposing views.

I know not how my fellow Nader supporters react to the crap this long gone beyond reality democratic loyalist spews but his latest piece of garbage has it that all Nader supporters are whiners.

Are you? I think I have seen rather little in the way of said whining, but then , my request for a moment of mourning for the long gone over the edge ITW is precisely because he no longer holds that truth and accuracy holds any value.
***********************

I hope that’s your last word.  I’m getting very tired of these personal assaults by you.

I’m not the one posting a broadside, you are.

I guess this is your idea of fun when you’re not Nader nattering.

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By garth, October 12, 2010 at 11:51 am Link to this comment

The Liberal wing of the Democratic Party has become somewhat of a Coxey’s army.  The Tea(t) party has become the march-in-step Amercian version of the Brown Shirts. Paladino of NY and ‘DeMented’ of SC are rabbling the rabble against gays.

(Listen to Van Hollen Democrat of MD.  He sounds like a mealy-mouthed whimp from the word go.)

Tea Bagger, Christine O’Donnell of Del, says she’s not a witch. (By the way what did O’Donnell do 20 years ago to merit appearances on the Bill Maher Show?  Was she someone then?  I really want to know.

Sharon, the angler, Angle of Nev won’t say anything.  Why won’t she go away?

Crazy, crazy people are running for office.  A tax hater in MA, Barbara Anderson, recently said they might be crazy but we need a change. Like the last time you listened to your crazy uncle and put all your savings into his company selling the Dribble Glass.  How’d that work out for ya?

Good Time Charlie Baker revived Hardard Pilgrim Healthcare by closing the offices in Rhode Island, raising premiums ($3100 per family) and stopping payment all claims.  My brother was a victim of that.  He paid premiums for 20 years, never saw a Doctor until he was bitten by a dog.

His Doc was on Vacation.  His associate gave him the rabies shot.  Bill:$540. 

Charlie said hell no.  It wasn’t by your Primary Care Physician. 

Bro says:  It was by his associate.

Charlie says:  No matter.  You have to pay.

And that’s what Good Time Charlie, the rest of the Republicans, the Republican Tea Partiers and the rest of that scum will do to you.

You think you had it bad.  Wait till January 2011 when these crazy people get into power.

I’ll just say I’m from Canada, or I’m an illegal alien.

This shit is just too much to take for any sane person to hold down.  I want to throw up.

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By StuartH, October 12, 2010 at 10:28 am Link to this comment

DavidByron:

“...despite your slam I think it should be clear why this field of study is not at
all academic and has practical impact for everyone in the world.”

I don’t see a slam in anything I said.  I tried to respectfully probe it what you
meant.  Typing in this discussion sometimes scrambles communication.  It is
just the nature of the medium.  Rewording a bit sometimes helps.

I used to hang out with a group of Russian dissidents who fled the Soviet
Union, so I know something about “Kremlinology.” 

There is a difference.  One guy I knew had a bad scar on his leg from acid the
KGB threw on him.  A friend of his was killed by them.  There was a real
environment of murder and violent reprisal.  One persone I knew, a poet, was
locked up in one of those insane asylums that was really a prison for dissident
thinkers. 

The problem with whatever Daschle wrote versus whatever else might come out
of the media reflection of whatever is really going on is that it presents only
some of the picture. 

In this case, there is the question of how to navigate the waters of Washington
and get anything at all done. 

My own experience in Texas politics has given me a sense that Republicans are
not in this to play by the rules and accept whatever is on the score board.  They
are believers that only they know the will of God and that there is no option
except that they gain power.  How that is done is of no consequence because
they are Righteous.  The opposition that Obama gained the minute he was
declared the winner of the election, stems from that.

That is a field with a lot of hurdles.  To me, that he was able to pass any sort of
bill at all, is a miracle. 

I think that if Republicans gain enough seats, the negativity will get much more
intense.  It is designed to demobilize anyone who might be affected by it.  If
the whole system is paralyzed and no problems get solved, then so much the
better.  That ratchets up the negativity and that might cause people to vote
Republican.  If the existential angst people feel causes them not to get involved
or vote, that is a happy side effect.  That is why there are millions being spent
by mysterious side groups.

I would not be surprised if paid operatives were not investing a little bit of time
here, posting comments that support this demobilization.  It wouldn’t cost
much and could be worth it.  Just saying.

This is not an academic situation.

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By ardee, October 12, 2010 at 8:59 am Link to this comment

To all my fellow “Nader Natterers”

I would ask that we all take a moment to consider and mourn the passing of ITW as a reasonable and sane human being desirous of debating opposing views.

I know not how my fellow Nader supporters react to the crap this long gone beyond reality democratic loyalist spews but his latest piece of garbage has it that all Nader supporters are whiners.

Are you? I think I have seen rather little in the way of said whining, but then , my request for a moment of mourning for the long gone over the edge ITW is precisely because he no longer holds that truth and accuracy holds any value.

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By DavidByron, October 12, 2010 at 8:10 am Link to this comment

StuartH:  It used to be called “Kremlinology”. 

The art of figuring out and predicting what politicians really are doing and really are trying to do from their public statements (which for the most part are obfuscations and lies).

For example there’s a debate if you will, among Progressives right now as to what Obama is and what he has done and tried to do in office so far.  Things like Daschle’s book claiming Obama arranged to block the public option in a secret deal with hospitals and doctors while publicly saying he was pushing for the public option.

Daschle promptly reversed himself as this was noticed in his book.

Of course US propaganda had it that only the Soviets were so deceptive as to require such a field of study because American politicians are not corrupt and even if they are, the “independent” media in America will always tell you the truth about them for you.  Obviously that is false and so Kremlinology is required to study the US federal government.

But this field is proverbially easy to guess at wrong answers.  Now it seems to me that you’re making the claim that local politics has much to inform on Kremlinology but I don’t know if that’s true.

At any rate despite your slam I think it should be clear why this field of study is not at all academic and has practical impact for everyone in the world.

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By BR549, October 12, 2010 at 7:47 am Link to this comment

jdyf333, October 11 at 8:32 pm
“I agree that most bloggers are clueless. But people who vote are clueless AND
stupid. (Wake up and take a look around you. I sincerely hope you are not so
deluded that you think that The System works.)”
—————————————-

I guess everyone except you must be stupid according to this statement. The Bloggers we could argue as being the site initiators and not necessarily the readers, but when you say “look around you”, I’m sorry, that almost sounds like you think we’re all as anesthetized as the Kool-Aid drinking Price Is Right viewers.

I’ve seen some exceptional contributions to this and many other articles by people who want to make a difference. That “difference” can also include people working out viable scenarios in their mind and then conferring with their friends and family so as to convince them of the urgency of the topics being discussed here. So, discussion here does not, by any measure, stop here.

We carry these dialogues into every conversation we have with others, oftentimes even plagiarizing phrases. Certainly, if nothing else, these sites have gotten me off MY ass to reread items I had long since forgotten about after US History class some 40 years ago.

If the System in NOT working, it is primarily because of the onslaught brought upon us by unscrupulous people who, I might add, had taken an oath. THAT was a safeguard that we are realizing was insufficient to kindle any sense of honesty and integrity. Even swearing upon a bible didn’t work with these people. They, the politicians, have no concept of God in their daily lives except as having him deliver wheelbarrows full of greenbacks onto their front lawn. I’m not getting into any religious stuff here, only that when we take an oath, it is a very visceral commitment, not just lip service to further one’s own personal gain.

These same people have labored literally for centuries in covering up their sedition with lies and legislation intended solely for the purpose of covering up the crimes and falsehoods they had committed and yet claimed it was for our own good and for “national security”.

I will agree that if the system was working, the legislature would have grown testicles or ovaries enough to develop a sense of integrity, and that would solve all the major problems we have today. Past that, the population now has the duty to correct the injustices of the legislature and try to do it in any way that hopes to still conform to the Constitution it still wishes to preserve. It is obvious that the legislature has forgotten about the Constitution and the wisdom that went into it.

Even if we all got up, right now, and decided to march in protest somewhere, the REAL issue is how many others that YOU know are ready to do the same thing? Hmm? This is where the beauty of these sites comes in because we see how many others of us are similarly minded before we charge off and try to educate our fellow citizens in order to have them change their voting habits. People ARE changing their opinions and I guess if you aren’t seeing that, you haven’t been hitting the bricks hard enough.

As this system is working, if we go into any type of internal conflict, it will be because the legislature was so corrupted that it saw no other avenue than to trample the very people who created the positions they hold. When that body develops a sense of humility, the country, if not the entire world, will have won.

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By StuartH, October 11, 2010 at 9:44 pm Link to this comment

DavidByron:

Your attempt to be abstract, probably academic, renders this question
impossible to figure out.

“This of course is no accident since what we do know about how politics really
works at this level is by deceiving the general public routinely and that would
be jeaopardised by any honest account.”

What are you talking about?  Are you talking about the way things appear
through the media?  Are you talking about the problem with finding books
about what is going on that are written by people who aren’t just trying to
promote an agenda? Are you talking about the way that public communication
very often is double speak?

It might be a good question.  I can readily identify with the difficulty of finding
the right way to articulate it.  When I think about it, it has taken me a very long
time to really work out as much as I have, and I don’t consider the effort to
have reached anywhere near the level it should. 

I do think that there is a lot of potential in this medium to actually use the
interactivity of it as a basis for picking through the problem of how to move
things forward.  We aren’t there yet.

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