Welcome, Truthdig readers, to this week’s live chat session with Robert Scheer! As we wait for our columnist, feel free to chat among yourselves and/or review some of the videos on the topic.
10:01 Robert Scheer
Thu, 01 Jul 2010 18:01:53 GMT
Comment:
Hello everybody.
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10:02 Comment From Guest
Thu, 01 Jul 2010 18:02:20 GMT
Comment: Sounds like the Taiwanese have a different take on this. China is definitely coming, from their perspective.
10:04 Robert Scheer
Thu, 01 Jul 2010 18:04:20 GMT
Comment:
Look, there’s no question that coming from a common cultural and linguistic background facilitates communication, but as we’ve seen in places like Korea, Ireland, and in the cross-strait conflict it can also heighten tension. What has happened over the past 15 years is that, through trade, the remnants of the Chinese nationalists that controlled Taiwan came to realize that their economic interests were enhanced by getting along rather than by confronting their former mainland opponents.
10:04 Truthdig
Thu, 01 Jul 2010 18:04:52 GMT
Comment:
One of our commenters said, “The unelected Chinese government looks out for China’s national interests almost as well as our elected government looks out for Israel’s national interests.”
10:04 Truthdig
Thu, 01 Jul 2010 18:04:56 GMT
Comment:
Bob, do you agree?
10:06 Robert Scheer
Thu, 01 Jul 2010 18:06:47 GMT
Comment:
I think this is one discussion that does not have to revolve around Israel. I think what happens to 1.4 billion Chinese who now have the second strongest economy in the world and are holding a lot of our national debt should be worthy of consideration on its own terms. And I think the real problem with our government is that it doesn’t look out for the interest of the average American, but rather for those who lobby it, and that includes the military-industrial complex.
10:10 Truthdig
Thu, 01 Jul 2010 18:10:17 GMT
Comment:
Alice Fay Hammer asks, “And you think WE haven’t been buying up resources & otherwise taking advantage of Third World countries? If our greed hasn’t gobbled up our top position in the world, please tell me what has?”
10:10 Robert Scheer
Thu, 01 Jul 2010 18:10:21 GMT
Comment:
(To Alice)—Clearly, what’s happening is that the Chinese Communists are behaving as far more effective international capitalists than our leaders. And what they are doing is what has been done by successful capitalists throughout hundreds of years of history, which is to gain control of resources, turn them into products that people want to buy, and focus more on trade than on military conquest, recognizing that military conquest is not a cost-efficient enterprise, as we learned in Vietnam, Iraq and now in Afghanistan.
10:10 Truthdig
Thu, 01 Jul 2010 18:10:39 GMT
Comment:
Here’s another question: “Will Obama subsidize imports because low prices are more important than bringing back jobs to the USA?”
10:10 Comment From WSmart
Thu, 01 Jul 2010 18:10:47 GMT
Comment: Alcohol-fueled stupidity?
10:13 Robert Scheer
Thu, 01 Jul 2010 18:13:08 GMT
Comment:
I think this is a false issue. I don’t think our jobs are undermined by cheaper products coming in from China. I know this goes against the conventional wisdom, but I believe there is an enormous efficiency in international trade, which used to be called comparative advantage, and we have it in agriculture, we have it in our entertainment industry—both of which are incredibly successful in the world economy. That is certainly true of our information technology—the whole computer world—it is true in a large part of medicine, drugs, and I think we ought not to be testy when other people produce goods that we want to buy more efficiently. And that is what I believe the Chinese are doing. And I don’t believe in protectionism; I do believe in developing international human rights standards that protect workers’ right to organize and ban the exploitation of child labor.
10:13 Truthdig
Thu, 01 Jul 2010 18:13:18 GMT
Comment:
One of our commenters, dihey, asks: Multiple thanks, Mr. Scheer, for reporting this. I actually knew about the breakthrough yesterday from the Dutch newspaper NRC Handelsblad. Our MSM did not report this historic happening. The interesting issue now is: How can the Whitewash House continue to send arms to one of the partners of this historic deal? Will Mr. Obama toss a coin to answer this question?
Click here to check out Robert Scheer’s new book, “The Great American Stickup: How Reagan Republicans and Clinton Democrats Enriched Wall Street While Mugging Main Street.”
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Maybe Scheer should have actually done some research on China and Taiwan before writing this piece. The two now have a free trade agreement but that does not equal peace. China exercises and trains to fight both Taiwan and the United States in a potential war. They have roughly 1,500 missiles pointed at the island and their military receives double-digit budget increases each year. The Chinese have never discarded the idea that power grows out of the barrel of a gun, they’ve just added economics to their concept of power. The PRC views ECFA as a carrot to bring Taiwan under its sway, however, the stick (PLA) is still there and it’s getting bigger. Yes, war is unlikely, but we should maintain a moderate level of military deterrence just in case.
“Hulk 2008,” you said,“TaiWan and the mainland are separated merely by water and intense market competition.” Sorry,that statement is false. Over its history, Taiwan has had its own unique cultural and political development seperate from China. A trip to Taiwan, particularly southern Taiwan, would make that obvious.
Mr. Scheer, you ARE the best. You have been right 99.9% of the time from the Vietnam War on.
Right now the “communists” are eating our capitalist lunches and dinners. The Chinese are passionate Chinese before they are any other “ism”. TaiWan and the mainland are separated merely by water and intense market competition. I foresee ongoing market-oriented aggression from both Chinas and a probable merging of the two sometime in the future based on their shared culture .... not to mention their shared success in the world economy.
e.g. when I was in TaiWan during the 60’s I saw the filming of “Sand Pebbles” - the locals were very shrewd in being totally supportive of the crew and cast and producers - and later very tough on extracting various royalties when the film was to be taken out of the country.
The US needs to forget the Iron Curtain mentality and take on the face of WalMart - China is more an economic antagonist than a military one. But they still need US more than we need them. And Yankee ingenuity still is alive someplace in our national soul. We just need a “checkup from the neck up” as Zig Ziglar used to say. The US can compete as long as we discard short-sighted bottom-line corporate greed. We can return to the old Yankee clipper days if short-term greed is set aside.
By Michael Turton, July 2, 2010 at 12:42 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
Do they not have Google in Scheer’s part of the world. Reputable surveys show that a 40% minority of the population supports ECFA. This information is not difficult to find. Once aagain, I refer Scheer to BBC’s Cindy Sui:
“Taiwanese people are torn on the issue. Surveys have shown while about 40% favour the ECFA, about 30% do not, and another 30% are undecided.”
Or you could go right to the polls themselves. This poll from a Hong Kong Chinese owned TV station in Taiwan, TVBS, which is a rabid supporter of the government….
.....has ECFA support at 41% in May. If Scheer wants others I will be happy to supply them. No majority of Taiwanese supports ECFA.
ECFA was negotiated under threat of 1,500 missiles and a massive military build up aimed at Taiwan. It is not an agreement aimed at peace through trade, though that is the justificatory rhetoric. If trade brings peace, why the military build up as trade between China and Taiwan rose to over $100 billion annually? Because China’s goal is to annex Taiwan, Chinese leaders have forthrightly stated that ECFA is the first step in this. Meanwhile Taiwan’s leadership consists of KMTers who want to annex Taiwan to China, and see the island mainly as a bargaining chip they can use to get into the action in China. The unpopularity of ECFA is one strong reason the President’s approval ratings are in the twenties.
BTW, as US officials here confirmed, the US has an arms freeze on (it also did the last time you accused the US of imperialistically selling arms to China) and is not selling weapons to Taiwan (the recent delivery was the final step of a decade old delivery).
Finally, ECFA is strongly backed by global financial players and large companies in Taiwan with close links to the government.
Your understanding of the situation is upside down. It would be great if you moved into the democracy camp on this topic. Because right now you’re not in it, Robert.
By Richard Nixon, July 1, 2010 at 6:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
Two flaws I saw in Mr. Scheer’s comments
He wrote
“I don’t think our jobs are undermined by cheaper products coming in from
China.”
I would argue this is holding us down. It stems from the fact that U.S. citizens
want cheap products. For example almost every good at Wal-Mart is ‘Made in
China’. The people buying these goods don’t seem to care where the products
come from, who makes it, as long as they can afford it. I would venture to say
they barely even care if it is safe.
Rarely anybody buys American made products anymore, because they aren’t
being made. They aren’t being made anymore because they were too expensive
for the majority to make/buy.
We actually have labor laws, minimum wage, I’m sure if business owners could
legally make things cheaper in the U.S. they would. Or if there some
resurgence in American products they would begin making them again too
because they could make a profit.
If there was a demand for American products no matter the price, I feel we
wouldn’t see cheap Chinese made products here. With that being said I try to
buy American products whenever possible, even better when it is directly from
the person who made it.
Also Robert Scheer wrote
“And yet, its [China’s] quality of life has expanded beyond anyone’s
expectations.”
If anyone has any facts on this, or personal knowledge, I would be interested to
hear it, because I am skeptical.
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By aaron, July 3, 2010 at 6:00 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
Maybe Scheer should have actually done some research on China and Taiwan before writing this piece. The two now have a free trade agreement but that does not equal peace. China exercises and trains to fight both Taiwan and the United States in a potential war. They have roughly 1,500 missiles pointed at the island and their military receives double-digit budget increases each year. The Chinese have never discarded the idea that power grows out of the barrel of a gun, they’ve just added economics to their concept of power. The PRC views ECFA as a carrot to bring Taiwan under its sway, however, the stick (PLA) is still there and it’s getting bigger. Yes, war is unlikely, but we should maintain a moderate level of military deterrence just in case.
Report thisBy Demian808, July 2, 2010 at 7:39 am Link to this comment
“Hulk 2008,” you said,“TaiWan and the mainland are separated merely by water and intense market competition.” Sorry,that statement is false. Over its history, Taiwan has had its own unique cultural and political development seperate from China. A trip to Taiwan, particularly southern Taiwan, would make that obvious.
Report thisBy Hulk2008, July 2, 2010 at 6:50 am Link to this comment
Mr. Scheer, you ARE the best. You have been right 99.9% of the time from the Vietnam War on.
Right now the “communists” are eating our capitalist lunches and dinners. The Chinese are passionate Chinese before they are any other “ism”. TaiWan and the mainland are separated merely by water and intense market competition. I foresee ongoing market-oriented aggression from both Chinas and a probable merging of the two sometime in the future based on their shared culture .... not to mention their shared success in the world economy.
e.g. when I was in TaiWan during the 60’s I saw the filming of “Sand Pebbles” - the locals were very shrewd in being totally supportive of the crew and cast and producers - and later very tough on extracting various royalties when the film was to be taken out of the country.
The US needs to forget the Iron Curtain mentality and take on the face of WalMart - China is more an economic antagonist than a military one. But they still need US more than we need them. And Yankee ingenuity still is alive someplace in our national soul. We just need a “checkup from the neck up” as Zig Ziglar used to say. The US can compete as long as we discard short-sighted bottom-line corporate greed. We can return to the old Yankee clipper days if short-term greed is set aside.
Report thisBy Michael Turton, July 2, 2010 at 12:45 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
This Global Views poll (a stuffily pro-government organization that does decent poll work) finds 46% support.
http://www.gvm.com.tw/gvsrc/201003_GVSRC_others.pdf
Report thisBy Michael Turton, July 2, 2010 at 12:42 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
Do they not have Google in Scheer’s part of the world. Reputable surveys show that a 40% minority of the population supports ECFA. This information is not difficult to find. Once aagain, I refer Scheer to BBC’s Cindy Sui:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10122592.stm
“Taiwanese people are torn on the issue. Surveys have shown while about 40% favour the ECFA, about 30% do not, and another 30% are undecided.”
Or you could go right to the polls themselves. This poll from a Hong Kong Chinese owned TV station in Taiwan, TVBS, which is a rabid supporter of the government….
http://www.tvbs.com.tw/FILE_DB/DL_DB/doshouldo/201006/doshouldo-20100601201132.pdf
.....has ECFA support at 41% in May. If Scheer wants others I will be happy to supply them. No majority of Taiwanese supports ECFA.
ECFA was negotiated under threat of 1,500 missiles and a massive military build up aimed at Taiwan. It is not an agreement aimed at peace through trade, though that is the justificatory rhetoric. If trade brings peace, why the military build up as trade between China and Taiwan rose to over $100 billion annually? Because China’s goal is to annex Taiwan, Chinese leaders have forthrightly stated that ECFA is the first step in this. Meanwhile Taiwan’s leadership consists of KMTers who want to annex Taiwan to China, and see the island mainly as a bargaining chip they can use to get into the action in China. The unpopularity of ECFA is one strong reason the President’s approval ratings are in the twenties.
BTW, as US officials here confirmed, the US has an arms freeze on (it also did the last time you accused the US of imperialistically selling arms to China) and is not selling weapons to Taiwan (the recent delivery was the final step of a decade old delivery).
Finally, ECFA is strongly backed by global financial players and large companies in Taiwan with close links to the government.
Your understanding of the situation is upside down. It would be great if you moved into the democracy camp on this topic. Because right now you’re not in it, Robert.
Michael Turton
Report thisThe View from Taiwan
By Richard Nixon, July 1, 2010 at 6:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
Two flaws I saw in Mr. Scheer’s comments
He wrote
“I don’t think our jobs are undermined by cheaper products coming in from
China.”
I would argue this is holding us down. It stems from the fact that U.S. citizens
want cheap products. For example almost every good at Wal-Mart is ‘Made in
China’. The people buying these goods don’t seem to care where the products
come from, who makes it, as long as they can afford it. I would venture to say
they barely even care if it is safe.
Rarely anybody buys American made products anymore, because they aren’t
being made. They aren’t being made anymore because they were too expensive
for the majority to make/buy.
We actually have labor laws, minimum wage, I’m sure if business owners could
legally make things cheaper in the U.S. they would. Or if there some
resurgence in American products they would begin making them again too
because they could make a profit.
If there was a demand for American products no matter the price, I feel we
wouldn’t see cheap Chinese made products here. With that being said I try to
buy American products whenever possible, even better when it is directly from
the person who made it.
Also Robert Scheer wrote
“And yet, its [China’s] quality of life has expanded beyond anyone’s
expectations.”
If anyone has any facts on this, or personal knowledge, I would be interested to
Report thishear it, because I am skeptical.