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Jesus ‘Love-Bombs’ You

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Posted on Apr 23, 2007
baptism
AP Photo / Rick Bowmer

By Chris Hedges

There is a false, but effective, fiction that one has to be born again to be a Christian.  The Christian right refuses to acknowledge the worth of anyone’s religious experience unless—in the words of the tired and opaque cliché—one has accepted “Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior.”

The meltdown, often skillfully manipulated by preachers and teams of evangelists, is one of the most pernicious tools of the movement.  Through conversion one surrenders to a higher authority.  And the higher authority, rather than God, is the preacher who steps in to take over your life.  Being born again, and the process it entails, is more often about submission and the surrender of moral responsibility than genuine belief.

I attended a five-day seminar at Coral Ridge in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., where I was taught, often by D. James Kennedy, the techniques of conversion. The callousness of these techniques—targeting the vulnerable, building false friendships with the lonely or troubled, promising to relieve people of the most fundamental dreads of human existence from the fear of mortality to the numbing pain of grief—gave to the process an awful cruelty and dishonesty. I attended the seminar as part of the research for my book “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America.” Kennedy openly called converts “recruits” and spoke about them joining a new political force sweeping across the country to reshape and reform America into a Christian state.

“I would always go in first, introduce myself, Jim Kennedy,” he told us. “I’m checking the lay of the land and I will look around the living room and see if there’s something there that I can comment about. Frequently, there will be a large picture somewhere and where did they put it, this picture ... why would they put it over the fireplace? Significant.”

“In Fort Lauderdale you don’t find too many fireplaces,” he added, smiling, “but there’s some kind of central focus. Maybe ... golf trophies ... I’m over here looking at these golf trophies ... painting ... I say… beautiful painting, did you paint that? The first rule about looking at trophies, don’t touch them ... did you win all those trophies? So we have a little conversation about golf, but I know enough about golf to have this conversation ... now what have I done? I’m making a friend.”

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“Compliment them on whatever you can,” Kennedy said, “discuss what they do, you’re going to find out what are their hobbies, maybe right there in the living room. Then you’re going to ask them about what they do, where they’re from, how long they’ve been there ... something to discuss with them ... in doing this, you have made a friend.”

We are told to “emphasize the positive” and “identify with your prospect.”  We are encouraged in the green “Evangelism Explosion” instruction manual to use sentences such as “It is wonderful to know when I lay my head on my pillow tonight that if I do not awaken in bed in the morning, I will awaken in paradise with God.”  We are told to paint graphic pictures of personal tragedy that God has helped solve, such as: “I had a Christian son killed in Vietnam, yet my heart is filled with peace because I know he has eternal life.  Even though he was killed by an enemy mortar, he has a home now in heaven, and one day we’ll be reunited there.”  We are instructed to pepper our testimonies with words like love, peace, faithfulness, forgiveness, hope, purpose and obedience and remember to talk about how we have found, in our own conversion, “courage in the face of death.” 

Kennedy warns us not to carry a large Bible, but to keep a small one hidden in our pocket, saying “don’t show your gun until you’re ready to shoot it.”

The conversion, at first, is euphoric. It is about new, loving friends, about the conquering of human anxieties, fears and addictions, about attainment through God of wealth, power, success and happiness. For those who have known personal and economic despair, it feels like a new life, a new beginning. The new church friends repeatedly call them, invite them to dinner, listen to their troubles and answer their questions. Kennedy told us that we must keep in touch in the days after conversion. He encouraged us to keep detailed files on those we proselytize. We must be sure the converts are never left standing alone at church. We must care when no one else seems to care. The converts are assigned a “discipler” or prayer partner, a new friend, who is wiser than they are in the ways of the Lord and able to instruct them in their new life.

The intense interest by a group of three or four evangelists in a potential convert, an essential part of the conversion process, the flattery and feigned affection, the rapt attention to those being recruited and the flurry of “sincere” compliments are a form of “love bombing.” It is the same technique employed by most cults, such as the Unification Church or “Moonies,” to attract prospects. It was a well-developed tactic of the Russian and Chinese communist parties, which share many of the communal and repressive characteristics of the Christian right.

“Love bombing is a coordinated effort, usually under the direction of leadership, that involves long-term members flooding recruits and newer members with flattery, verbal seduction, affectionate but usually nonsexual touching, and lots of attention to their every remark,” the psychiatrist Margaret Thaler Singer wrote. “Love bombing—or the offer of instant companionship—is a deceptive ploy accounting for many successful recruitment drives.”

The convert is gradually drawn into a host of church activities by his or her new friends, leaving little time for outside socializing. But the warmth soon brings with it new rules. When you violate the rules, you sin, you flirt with rebellion, with becoming a “backslider,” someone who was converted but has fallen and is once again on the wrong side of God. And as the new converts are increasingly invested in the church community, as they cut ties with their old community, it is harder to dismiss the mounting demands of the “discipler” and church leaders. The only proper relationship is submission to those above you, the abandonment of critical thought and the mouthing of thought-terminating clichés that are morally charged. “Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior” or “the wages of sin are death” is used to end all discussion.

Rules are incorporated slowly and deliberately into the convert’s belief system. These include blind obedience to church leaders, the teaching of an exclusive, spiritual elitism that demonizes all other ways of being and believing, and a persecution complex that keeps followers mobilized and distrustful of outsiders. The result is the destruction of old communities, old friendships and the independent ability to make moral choices. Believers are soon encased in the church community. They are taught to emphasize personal experience rather than reasoning, and to reject the reality-based world. For those who defy the system, who walk away, there is a collective banishment.

There is a gradual establishment of new standards for every aspect of life. Those who choose spouses must choose Christian spouses. Families and friends are divided into groups of “saved” and “unsaved.” The movement, while it purports to be about families, is the great divider of families, friends and communities. It competes with the family and those outside its structure for loyalty. It seeks to place itself above the family, either drawing all family members into its embrace or pushing those who resist aside. There were frequent prayers during the seminar I attended for relatives who were “unsaved,” those who remained beyond the control of the movement. Many of these prayers, including one by a grandmother for her unsaved grandchildren, were filled with tears and wrenching pain over the damnation of those they loved.

The new ideology gives the believers a sense of purpose, feelings of superiority and a way to justify and sanctify their hatreds. For many, the rewards of cleaning up their lives, of repairing their damaged self-esteem, of joining an elite and blessed group are worth the cost of submission. They know how to define themselves. They do not have to make moral choice. It is made for them. They submerge their individual personas into the single persona of the Christian crowd. Their hope lies not in the real world, but in this new world of magic and miracles. For most, the conformity, the flight away from themselves, the dismissal of facts and logic, the destruction of personal autonomy, even with its latent totalitarianism, is a welcome and joyous relief. The flight into the arms of the religious right, into blind acceptance of a holy cause, compensates for the convert’s despair and lack of faith in himself or herself. And the more corrupted and soiled the converts feel, the more profound their despair, the more militant they become, shouting, organizing and agitating to create a pure and sanctified Christian nation, a purity they believe will offset their own feelings of shame and guilt. Many want to be deceived and directed. It makes life easier to bear.

Freedom from fear, especially the fear of death, is what is being sold. It is a lie, as everyone has to know on some level, even while they write and rewrite their testimonies to conform to the instructors’ demands. But admitting this in front of other believers is impossible. Such an admission would be interpreted as a lack of faith. And this too is part of the process, for it fosters a dread of being found out, a morbid guilt that we are not as good or as Christian as those around us. This dread does not go away with conversion or blind obedience or submission. This unachievable ideal forces the convert to repress and lose touch with the uncertainties, ambiguities and contradictions that make up human existence.

We were instructed to inform potential converts that Jesus came to Earth and died “to pay the penalty for our sins and to purchase a place in heaven for us” and that “to receive eternal life you must transfer your trust from yourself to Jesus Christ alone for eternal life.”  We were told to ask the convert if he or she is willing “to turn from what you have been doing that is not pleasing to Him and follow Him as He reveals His will to you in His Word.” If the covert agrees to accept a new way of life we are to bow our heads and pray, with the convert repeating each line after us.

“Lord Jesus, I want You to come in and take over my life right now. I am a sinner. I have been trusting in myself and my own good works. But now I place my trust in You. I accept You as my own personal Savior. I believe you died for me. I receive You as Lord and Master of my life. Help me to turn from my sins and to follow You. I accept the free gift of eternal life. I am not worthy of it, but I thank You for it. Amen.”

And when it is over the new believers are told “Welcome to the family of God.” They are told to read a chapter a day in the Gospel of John and that they will be visited again in a week to talk about the Bible. They are encouraged to pray, because God “promised to hear and answer our prayers.” They are told to find “a good Bible-believing church and become a part of it.” They are told to join a Christian fellowship group. They are told to witness to those in their family. With this, the process of deconstructing an individual and building a submissive follower, one who no longer has any allegiance to the values of the open society, begins.

Chris Hedges, who graduated from seminary at Harvard Divinity School, is the author of “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America.”  He is a senior fellow at The Nation Institute and a Lannan Literary Fellow.

On May 22, Chris Hedges and Sam Harris will debate “Religion, Politics and the End of the World.” Click here for details and tickets.


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Annie Reitano's avatar

By Annie Reitano, May 7, 2007 at 11:19 pm Link to this comment

“But why not attempt to rise to the occasion and use your own thoughts and ideas, perhaps buttressed with a few cogent quotations?”

I think I do.  But you know, when I fall back on my own understanding solely, I am called everything but a good person.  One woman in true “Christian love” on another thread told me that I really show my “slut character”...lol If I only use my thoughts, which are unimportant to faith heads who need to rely on the words of others from eons ago, I am just an arrogant little WOP, and every other thing you can think of.  At least this way, they can look their founding fathers and their biblical writers up and decide for themselves.  Mostly they will look for what suits them anyway.

I suppose this is just good practice for me.  All is fair.  Afterall, I always maintain that the burden of proving any of this nonsense is on them.  Hopefully someone of “faith” will see what you posted and have an original thought.

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By Harlon57, May 7, 2007 at 9:32 pm Link to this comment

It is true.  Of course one can always just fall back into the intellectually lazy form of discourse using solely the words of others or some text.

But why not attempt to rise to the occasion and use your own thoughts and ideas, perhaps buttressed with a few cogent quotations?

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By Annie Reitano, May 7, 2007 at 9:21 pm Link to this comment

“In human discourse, what is prized, is novel thought.”

Oh if that were only true!  Then quotes other than what’s in the unholy books would be ‘novel’ indeed and people would pay more attention to them and less attention to what wasn’t thought out.  i.e. religion.  *sigh*

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By Harlon57, May 7, 2007 at 8:41 pm Link to this comment

In human discourse, what is prized, is novel thought.

The ability to parrot passages from favored texts is the lowest form of debate, next to the claim from authority.

Let’s try to step up our game, and interact using our own thoughts on the subjects.

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By Harlon57, May 7, 2007 at 8:18 pm Link to this comment

Messenger.

Why don’t you have a new message?  It seems all you can do is spout the old, bronze age text.

You are a messenger with no message.

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By Annie Reitano, May 7, 2007 at 7:27 pm Link to this comment

#68674 by The Messenger on 5/07 at 4:42 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

Hello yet AGAIN, The Messenger

And do you know what Allah and YHWH say about your belief in that little tale? 

Allah says you will burn in hell for having trusted in more than one God. [regarding the Trinity]  Surah 4:137 of the Qur’an.  It is spelled out clearly what “Allah” feels about you praising the trinity.

As for as YHWH, You will be boiled in hot excrement in hell forever.

Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.

They also deny all other gods.

Now, pick a God any God—but make it a good one.

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By Annie Reitano, May 7, 2007 at 7:20 pm Link to this comment

Hi right as can be,

Do you know what else ol’ Abe said?
“The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.”

- Abraham Lincoln, American president (1809-1865).

Although, you’re right that he DID praise some of it’s writings during his POLITICAL speeches.  wink


http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/steinlinc.htm

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By Harlon57, May 7, 2007 at 7:01 pm Link to this comment

Right as can be.

Do you have any thoughts of your own?

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By right as can be, May 7, 2007 at 6:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

ABRAHAM LINCOLN QUOTES

“Common looking people are the best in the world: that is the reason the Lord makes so many of them.”

“I have been driven many times upon my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had nowhere else to go. My own wisdom and that of all about me seemed insufficient for that day.”

“A house divided against itself cannot stand. I believe this government cannot endure permanently half-slave and half-free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved - I do not expect the house to fall - but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other.”

[Mark 3:23-27; Luke 11:17-22] And [Matt 9:4] knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.

“I have never studied the art of paying compliments to women; but I must say that if all that has been said by orators and poets since the creation of the world in praise of women were applied to the women of America, it would not do them justice for their conduct during this war. I will close by saying, God bless the women of America!”


“In regard to this Great Book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this book.”

Just a few words from ole Abe.

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By Annie Reitano, May 7, 2007 at 5:46 pm Link to this comment

It should be noted that the founding fathers were mainly Deists which is why a “god” is mentioned in some of their statements.  The alternative in their time, for NOT believing at least in God, would not have bode well for them.  In the end, it didn’t for Thomas Paine anyway as on his death bed he would not denounce his disbelief in the Bible.  His bones are scattered—no one knows where for sure but probably the ocean because he was denied a “Christian Burial”.  But even Honest Abe Lincoln did not abide by the bible.  So, considering the times, these men made leaps for the USA—and still are being denied their true beliefs by some today.

The US is a culture that was set up by MANY Deists.  Several of the important founders were deists:  Thomas Jefferson, John Quincy Adams, James Madison, Ethan Allen, Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin, and possibly George Washington and Abraham Lincoln.

The idea of a separation of church and state, keeping government secular, came from deists.  Patrick Henry tried unsuccessfully to pass legislation to get Virginia to collect taxes in support of churches, particularly the Episcopal church, which he wanted to establish similarly to the Anglican Church in England.  Deist James Madison lead the opposition and went on to be considered the architect of the Constitutional separation of church and state.

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By The Messenger, May 7, 2007 at 5:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

One of God’s warnings to people in rebellion:

Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel:
Because you despise this word, and trust in oppression and perversity, and rely on them, therefore this iniquity shall be to you, Like a breach ready to fall, a bulge in a high wall, whose breaking comes suddenly in an instant, and He shall break it like the breaking of the potter’s vessel, which is broken in pieces, He shall not spare.

Isaiah 31: 12,13

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By Annie Reitano, May 7, 2007 at 5:36 pm Link to this comment

ONE MORE

I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life. I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit
-Thomas Paine

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By Jim H., May 7, 2007 at 5:16 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: 68653 & 68660

(FROM)  Our Founding Fathers on Christianity
http://www.ecis.com/~alizard/founding-fathers-xtianity.html
Anyone who tells you that the Founding Fathers were trying to create a Christian nation is either a liar or parroting what other liars told him. This is what they really had to say about Christianity.
The Faith of our Founding Fathers
By Dean Worbis
———————-
(HERE’S A (better) THOMAS JEFFERSON QUOTE:)
Thomas Jefferson U.S. president (1801-1809)
” The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves…these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.”
      (And):  “The “Bible”?  “Dunghill!”
———————————————————————————————————
THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
  Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground
  Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end
Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence
JH 8/29/06
  The worst form of child abuse is warping of the mind!

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By Harlon57, May 7, 2007 at 4:05 pm Link to this comment

Right as can be:

“Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.”

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

Although Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term “Nature’s God” used by deists of the time). With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion. He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus.

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By right as can be, May 7, 2007 at 3:24 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.”

Thomas Jefferson quote

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By Harlon57, May 6, 2007 at 5:55 pm Link to this comment

Camy, you said: “The one thing that has led me to believe is the notion of hope. Of knowing that you will be provided for and that you are already saved, and fully loved whether you believe or not.”

You have faith because it makes you feel good, not because you have used your natural ability to reason.  Just because it makes you feel good does not in any way mean it’s true or real.

The average age of death in the year 1900 was about 45.  The average lifespan has increased to almost 80 years of age not because of faith, but because science has provided clean water, wholesome food, medicine to cure many previously incurable diseases, technology to test for disease, and so on.

I hope that man continues to use reason to solve our many problems. Certainly, god isn’t doing it.

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By Annie Reitano, May 6, 2007 at 5:37 pm Link to this comment

#68495 by Jim H. on 5/06 at 12:55 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

Oh no, Jim!  I see it entirely differently than you do.  I really feel that to “fight” the religious you must always step up your game. I have learned from some of the Christians on here.  But it’s NOT just them.  It’s all three Abrahamic religions that are at war with mankind, as well as with each other.  The Bible is shit, you’re right.  But I was just reading this morning about the three hells from these books—the Bible, the Qur’an and the Talmud. 

Ready?  The Bible, believe in Jesus or the smoke of your torment will rise up forever and ever in the presense of “HOLY ANGELS”.  haha!  And if that’s not bad enough, Allah will roast your skin and burn your flesh and grow it back each time to reburn it again.  Now, the Jewish hell is written in by Rabbis.  If you don’t do exactly as they say, you will boil in hot excrement for all eternity.

What the hell are people thinking?  This knowledge is necessary to wake people up who are ready to awaken.  I have seen it happen.  If you want people to stop with that RCC SHIT…then learn why you hate it.  I mean, really LEARN about it.  That’s my advice.

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By Jim H., May 6, 2007 at 1:55 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:68308 by Annie Reitano
Hello Annie;
I am surprised that you keep afloat discussion of anyhing in, or having to do with, “BIBLE” that big pile of reeking dross that all those ‘robots’ swear by as the factual words of their “God”.
I believe that all secularists, and down to earth realists who are nonbelievers in ‘Godism’ should get away from ever mentioning that filthy compendium of pornography, endless lying contradictions, and information about when and how to kill all those who refuse to honor their “God”.
Once we have realized that “Godism” is a criminal racketeering ‘Ponzi-scheme dedicated to the enslavement of all humanity and operated by a bunch of sneaky low-life charlatans who warp the minds of children and rob them of their pennies to build their mansions and pay dues to a foreign entity The Vatican,  we must find all this to be so abhorrently repugnant and revolting that we should totally avoid ever acknowledging anything coming from that filthy ilk as possessing any value at all to support anything they wish to proffer in support of their ridiculous lies and claims. 
Some people seem to believe that showing those fools the many dichotomies in those writings used to support their asinine claims and assertions, the evidence derived therefrom, when presented to those fools should obviate any arguments they could offer to support their effacacy, and wake those fools from their mesmmerized state. But one’s mere mention of Bible gives some credence to the fools thought that even the dissenters recognize some value therein.
Ciao, Jim

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By Camy, May 5, 2007 at 12:14 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I think that it is wonderful that there is always debate and people have different opinions. This is an article though and it is a little onesided. I consider myself a Christian, who is messy and does not follow all the rules all the time and is not immersed in church activities. The one thing that has led me to believe is the notion of hope. Of knowing that you will be provided for and that you are already saved, and fully loved wheter you believe or not. Whether you are a sinner, non believer, killer, gay, anything, God has accepted that. It is up to you to decide whether you believe. People are human and make mistakes so people acting wrongly with a good intention to bring you to a different actualization may bring on bad feelings or animosity towards the religion, but it is not God himself. who is doing this. That shoudl not stop your belief it god and having hope. It is sad to see that people are so morbid and have no hope for the future. Despite any sort of grief and trouble the silver lining I have is knowing that god will be there. I dont’ believe that people are perfect and they act imperfectly and that is fine becuase the relationship you have with god is between you and him, no one else. No one can tell you what to do except for yourself. It is a choice. If people choose to do so then let them.

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By Annie Reitano, May 4, 2007 at 11:25 pm Link to this comment

Fadel Abdallah,
“In this quoted passage of the Christian Bible, it’s obvious that God is speaking and condemning the Jews in the strongest possible language. If I were a Jew I would be greatly offended and do my best to censor or have this removed from the Bible! However, I am neither a Jew nor a Christian, and I am wondering what kind of reaction a Jew or a Christian would have upon reading this passage. I know there are many passionate Christians, Jews and even atheists on this thread, and I am deadly curious to know what’s your take or comment on this. Any comments would be appreciated for I need this to do some research.”

You can believe that practicing Jews would love to see the entire NT completely erased.  But as it is, the Greeks and the Romans are the people who decided what should stay in the Bible and what should stay out.  Martin Luther himself wanted to rid the Bible of the book of James, but failed.  Other books he succeeded at getting removed.  Thus the Protestant movement which has 7 less books than the Catholic Bible. 

As far as the passage goes, it shows Jesus cursing his enemies, yet again!—Even though he asked his followers to forgive their enemies and to pray for their persecutors.  Yet we never see Jesus doing that in the NT.

It would be like a man coming to your town and turning your religious views upside down and mocking them and then claiming to be your messiah.  The Sanhedrin had EVERY RIGHT to question a little known carpenter who was claiming to be God.  But instead of being understanding of it, he cursed them. 

Since Jesus WAS a Jew, the crowd was divided against him.  Even today, that’s true.  Because the Tanakh tells of a Messiah to come whose name is Emmanuel.  Luke chapter one of the NT tells of the angel Gabriel coming to Mary to tell her she’s going to have a virgin birth and is to call the saviour (messiah) Jesus. 

The whole thing is an entire mess.  Good luck with our research.

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By Harlon57, May 4, 2007 at 10:56 pm Link to this comment

Fadel Abdallah, you said: “In the NIV Study Bible, New International Version, Zondervan Publishing House, Michigan, 1985; Matthew: 23:15, page 1477, I read the following:
“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How would you escape being condemned to hell?! Therefore, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flag in your synagogues and pursue from town to town…”

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you! How often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.”

I believe: All religions throughout recorded history have had warnings to the religious and non-religious.

It is easy to predict that some religious types will be condemned for preaching their religion, as there are people who believe in another faith.

Nothing significant there. This prophesy is meant to prove a point, it only proves that people are harmed for disagreeing with the predominant view of the area and time.  Religious people are not very forgiving of faiths that do not agree with there own.

Religious types are typically very parochial.

Religion provides a very narrow world view since it only consists of the knowledge evident at the time and place of disclosure.

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By Fadel Abdallah, May 4, 2007 at 10:10 pm Link to this comment

In the NIV Study Bible, New International Version, Zondervan Publishing House, Michigan, 1985; Matthew: 23:15, page 1477, I read the following:

“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How would you escape being condemned to hell?! Therefore, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flag in your synagogues and pursue from town to town…”

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you! How often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.”
=======================================
In this quoted passage of the Christian Bible, it’s obvious that God is speaking and condemning the Jews in the strongest possible language. If I were a Jew I would be greatly offended and do my best to censor or have this removed from the Bible! However, I am neither a Jew nor a Christian, and I am wondering what kind of reaction a Jew or a Christian would have upon reading this passage. I know there are many passionate Christians, Jews and even atheists on this thread, and I am deadly curious to know what’s your take or comment on this. Any comments would be appreciated for I need this to do some research.

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By Harlon57, May 4, 2007 at 8:35 pm Link to this comment

Human, I am showing my son how to debunk a non-thinker, so I will go a step further.

You said; “A doubt-free atheist is next to impossible! So you can never be a sincere and doubt-free atheist. ?

A doubt free human is impossible.

Then you try to make the connection that because of doubt, one cannot be sincere. Please provide proof.

Since all humans, have doubt, you are announcing that all humans are insincere.  Did you not notice your own lack of continuity?

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By Harlon57, May 4, 2007 at 8:23 pm Link to this comment

Human, you said: “enquiry”. It’s inquiry.

You said “an atheist denies god without first disproving it.”  In science, you do not believe it things that have no proof. It is not our job to disprove your theory. It is your job to provide proof.

You say atheists don’t believe in anything.  That is preposterous. They just don’t believe in things without proof.

You say atheists doubt. Humans don’t know everything, and doubt things that are proposed without proof.

You lack the intellectual logic of a child, and are therefore unworthy of further debate.

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By Annie Reitano, May 4, 2007 at 8:20 pm Link to this comment

#68271 by human on 5/04 at 6:03 pm
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“With a spirit of enquiry, you cannot deny something which you have not disproved. An atheist denies God without first disproving it. In order to disprove God, you must have enormous knowledge.”

Well, the same could be said of those who say they KNOW God exists! Like Jung who stated that he didn’t have faith that God existed, he KNEW God existed!  His God, even! 

But having stated that little about turn, bear in mind, the atheist’s position is not that God is disproven but rather that he is UNproven.  And indeed, he is.  There is no evidence for such a being.  And if there were, the question would still remain, which God is it? And does it care? 

As Asimov said, there is such a lack of evidence in a deity that I consider it a waste of my time to even begin to believe in a personal God. But as far as inquiries go, I have a ton.  But they’re all scientifically based and there would have to be evidence for them.  Also, they have to do with non-violence.  You wouldn’t understand.

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By Annie Reitano, May 4, 2007 at 8:12 pm Link to this comment

Stumbled on this site:

“If you meet someone who you suspect of being cleverer than you, they may be an Atheist.”

Are you serious?  Your pastor actually said, “if you meet someone CLEVERER than you….?”  That speaks volumes and nothing else needs to be said.

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By human, May 4, 2007 at 7:03 pm Link to this comment
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It is difficult to see God as formless and it is difficult to see God as form. The formless is so abstract and God in a form appears to be too limited. So some people prefer to be atheists. Atheism is not a reality, it is just a matter of convenience. When you have a spirit of enquiry, or in search of truth, atheism falls apart.

With a spirit of enquiry, you cannot deny something which you have not disproved. An atheist denies God without first disproving it. In order to disprove God, you must have enormous knowledge. And when you have enormous knowledge, you cannot disprove it! For one to say that something does not exist, one should know about the whole universe. So you can never be one hundred percent atheist. An atheist is only a believer who is sleeping!

For a person to say, ‘I don’t believe in anything’, means he must believe in himself — so he believes in himself about whom he does not even know! An atheist can never be sincere because sincerity needs depth — and an atheist refuses to go to his depth. Because the deeper he goes, he finds a void, a field of all possibilities — he has to accept that there are many secrets he does not know. He would then need to acknowledge his ignorance, which he refuses to do, because the moment he is sincere, he seriously starts doubting his atheism.

A doubt-free atheist is next to impossible! So you can never be a sincere and doubt-free atheist. When the atheist realizes his ignorance, what does he do? Where does he go? Does he go to a guru? What does a guru do to him? Atheism is when one does not believe either in values or in the abstract. When an atheist comes to the guru, what happens? You start experiencing your own form and discover that you are indeed formless, hollow and empty. And this abstract non-form in you becomes more and more concrete!

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By stumbled in this site, May 4, 2007 at 6:55 pm Link to this comment
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As we have now learned Atheists prefer to rely on so-called logic and intelligence rather than good old fashioned gut instinct and religion. This manifests itself in conversation by their using complicated sentences and talking what my plain talking pastor likes to term “bull.” If you meet someone who you suspect of being cleverer than you, they may be an Atheist. Exercise caution.

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By The Messenger, May 4, 2007 at 6:34 pm Link to this comment
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Annie, Annie, Annie, you did it again. My words not yours. Lies, Lies, and more Lies.
I’m done with you Annie. Have fun with your anger and hatred, maybe you can talk with Jim Hanley, the two of you would be a fine match. You appear to be equally yoked.
Have a great time studying your Bible.

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By Harlon57, May 4, 2007 at 6:27 pm Link to this comment

Annie, I am immediately notified of incoming emails, and they indicate the sender.

I think the convergence of Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and now Christopher Hitchens will positively effect non-believers.  Many who were too worried to step up and be counted, will make themselves known.

Messenger, here are a couple of analogies since you seem to like them.  I don’t need to have a heart attack to know they are painful.  A heart surgeon need not ever have seen his own heart to perform artful surgery on another’s heart. One can intellectually understand the inadequacies of the bible without being a believer.

We well understand your faith in the absence of evidence, and choose to show you no respect.

Your book is fraught with inconsistencies, is hateful, discriminatory, genocidal and only a person who hides from and ignores their intellect could possibly find refuge in it’s word.

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By Annie Reitano, May 4, 2007 at 6:13 pm Link to this comment

Messenger,

Your metaphor was crap.  But don’t take my word for it, just stop using Webster’s book to define anything.  Afterall he’s not YOUR god and it’s not YOUR idolised book anymore.  *Annie rolls her eyes at the banality of Messenger’s statement*

“Annie, if you want to argue with someone else. Get your own property (not the Bible) and your own rocks (not God’s word). You continually copy other peoples words and statements in your emails, use our Bible to twist and deform, and talk about your past life as a Christian. Annie, you are not a Christian anymore (remember), you don’t believe the Bible, and you are intelligent enough to use just your own words. You are living in the past and using it against yourself.
Stop stealing things to use in your argument. Oh, wait you don’t have an argument with me or even know me at all, you have a problem with Jesus himself. Talk to Him, remember I’m just the Messenger.”


That last part was kind of interesting.  I was told that the best way to fight the religious was to use their preciously held words against them. (the Bible, Qur’an, Talmud, Torah, etc).  And you are proof of what I was warned about.  And I quote:  “The religious will always get angry, call names or tell you that you’re ignorant if you use their beloved Bible against them.  Be prepared to stand your ground because by doing so, they concede your position”.

Thank you for conceding my position, Messenger.  smile

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By Harlon57, May 4, 2007 at 6:04 pm Link to this comment

Messenger, I know you meant to make a point with your analogy of throwing stones from the affected’s yard. But you miss the point that those stones may be quite accurately and effectively thrown.

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By Annie Reitano, May 4, 2007 at 6:02 pm Link to this comment

Harlon,

Are you here all the time?  wink  Your computer runs faster than mine, that’s for sure!

“The Readers Digest award for Author of the Year that Prof. Dawkins won wasn’t an indication of sales, it was of writing prowess and content.”

Of course I am aware that it’s an equivalent type of the Pulitzer and I don’t remember ever reading a Pulitzer Prize Novel, not that I haven’t—I am just not aware if I did.

My point is that TFDL may do more sales in the US and maybe even in Britain, (I had never heard of it until very recently), but it doesn’t have the impact that TGD does.  Why? Because it’s audience are faithheads to begin with.  TGD has done more good.  This is how I see it.  Another faith head writes another book with high sales.  Fine.  In 1988 a man wrote a book called “88 Reasons Why Christ is Coming Back in 88”.  Sales sky-rocketed!  These faith heads thought that the author knew the EXACT date. September 13, 1988.  People were afraid that day.  I was Catholic so I was not as we’re not taught about a secret rapture.  Anyway, these are SHEEPLE who read these books.  But TGD is very different.  It shows how very unlikely any God could be and it points out with great accuracy the problems with the three Abrahamic religions—among other things.  Now, as far as TGD not making as much as TFDL—I didn’t know that but thinking back to the pandamonium in 1988 (not to mention the panic among Christians—how ironic!) I don’t doubt you.  I just think TGD does more for people than TFDL ever could because these are already people of faith buying it whereas TGD has been bought up by faith heads as well.  I like that!  It shows me that fence sitters are making a move to find out.  And when they do, it’s a good thing!  I believe this.  I believe John Lennon was right when he said that Christianity will fade like other religions before it.

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By Harlon57, May 4, 2007 at 5:42 pm Link to this comment

Annie,

I think that you may accomplish good things pointing out the evil embodied in the bible to some.

Re: The God Delusion sales. You are mistaken.  The Purpose Driven Life is the best selling book for each of the last 5 years. TGD doesn’t ‘yet’ come close.

The Readers Digest award for Author of the Year that Prof. Dawkins won wasn’t an indication of sales, it was of writing prowess and content.

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By The Messenger, May 4, 2007 at 5:37 pm Link to this comment
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You are not required to believe anything you do not want to believe. You are not required to do anything you do not want to do. It is always a personal choice. However, when you disagree with someone else and you want to argue a point you should use your own tools, your own ideas, your own creative thoughts, and bring your own evidence.
Those who try and use God’s word against a believer and verbally abuse them is like the man who goes on to someones property picks up that persons rocks from that same property and then begins to through them at the persons house.
Annie, if you want to argue with someone else. Get your own property (not the Bible) and your own rocks (not God’s word). You continually copy other peoples words and statements in your emails, use our Bible to twist and deform, and talk about your past life as a Christian. Annie, you are not a Christian anymore (remember), you don’t believe the Bible, and you are intelligent enough to use just your own words. You are living in the past and using it against yourself.
Stop stealing things to use in your argument. Oh, wait you don’t have an argument with me or even know me at all, you have a problem with Jesus himself. Talk to Him, remember I’m just the Messenger.

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By Annie Reitano, May 4, 2007 at 5:32 pm Link to this comment

Harlon,

I am not giving up or giving into people who have taken liberties and freedoms from other people just because they believe the lies in that book.  I will expose the violent character of that God anytime I see fit.

“I think most people lose faith because they see the lack of christ-like attitudes in their fellow practitioners. 

I believe it is really taking a snobbish position to think that they don’t already, on their own, recognize the discrepancies in the bible.”

That may be your position and thoughts.  It’s certainly not mine.  I didn’t already know what was in that book.  You are taught that Jesus died for you, he was a good man, etc.  When you’re taught something enough from one man, you forget to bother about what the other man (the men who wrote the bible i.e.) are saying.  I am thankful for the atheists I ran into who knew the vengeful and hateful God that I thought I was serving.  So wrapped up in “the passion of the christ” that I never took time to stop; learn for myself about other gods before him who did the same thing like Mithra or Ra or Adonis, etc. 

I am glad and I won’t stop.

And BTW, Dawkins made more money in book sales on The God Delusion than either Harris or Warren.  Infact, he was recently awarded the prestigous honour of Author of the Year by the BBC.  Why?  Because even faith heads bought the book because it was accelerating the atheist movement as well as fence sitters.  THAT is progress.

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By Annie Reitano, May 4, 2007 at 5:23 pm Link to this comment

#68222 by David from Florida on 5/04 at 2:11 pm
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“In Exodus 21:22-25 God gives a specific law regarding social order for the Israelites. He stated that if two men were fighting and hit a pregnant woman, thus causing her to give birth prematurely, they must be fined according to any damage done to the baby. The fine must be paid in relation to the amount of damage inflicted upon the child. If God would make a law specifically referring to the rights of the unborn, then surely the unborn must mean something to Him!”

Now, David.  Why are you making shit up?  You know very well that Exodus pays NO fine, no NOTHING to the baby.
And I quote, “If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely, BUT THERE IS NO SERIOUS INJURY, the offender must pay WHATEVER THE HUSBAND DEMANDS and the court allows.”

So much for your theory on “the injury of the baby.”  Clearly, the baby wasn’t even considered a serious injury.

” “In Psalm 137:8-9 The phrase about the infants is harsh because the psalmist is crying out for judgment:“Treat the Babylonians the way they treated us.”

So that makes it alright?  This is God’s Word and yet he would have that smack put in His Word?  Not much of a deity.

“Also I am confused how can you deny something you do not believe exists? If you believe it exists how can you deny it? I believe this is called circular reasoning.”

I deny God.  I deny that the bible was written for mankind today, yet the herd mentality has gotten just so far that men are sheeple.  100 years ago, witches were burned because of that book.  And I can’t help but find it fascinating that the bible changes, albeit not much, with the times.  If you believe in Jesus, give your money and all your posessions to me (I am poor) and follow him.

You see, I think it’s YOUR reasoing that’s not only circular but scattered.  I think you really haven’t read that book much.  If you had, then you’d know that your rebellious son is to be taken out and stoned to death.

“If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them; Then shall his father and mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of the city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.” (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

I’ve got that in another version of the “Word of God”, too.  And it’s the same thing.  Also, if your wife wasn’t a virgin on your wedding night?  Stone her to death.  It’s in YOUR law book.  Not mine.

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By David from Florida, May 4, 2007 at 4:19 pm Link to this comment
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RE #68232 by Logician

Why are you so angry is from guilt or fear?

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By Logician, May 4, 2007 at 3:54 pm Link to this comment

Re# 68029 by David from Florida on 5/03:

So how was junior college?  You went just long enough to learn not only how to pronounce multisyllabic words but a few philosophical phrases as well, eh?

Like all atavisms raised above their level of purpose in the gene pool, you have learned enough to know words and how they sound when put together, but you obviously do not have the intellectual capability to understand the concepts the words and phrases represent.

Does it feel good to wander into the midst of humans and talk like them?  Do you think for one minute you have fooled ANY of us?  You were wrong to think so, David, and here’s why:

Since someone can turn the computer on for you, have them show you dictionary.com or google.com.  Have that person pick a site on atheism and read it to you.  You will learn, David, that atheism IS NOT A PHILOSOPHY!  Isn’t that just AMAZING?  Can you say doofus?  I knew you could! See how easy that was, David?  You can’t argue philosophy when the subject isn’t a philosophy. 

I’ll even save your buddy some breath and define the word for you:
a = no,    theism = god belief.  That’s all, David.  Nothing more.  Not infinite knowledge, not denial, just NO BELIEF in what isn’t there.  Not how to pork little boys and then deny it, like a good Catholic father, not snort cocaine and give oral sex to the cocaine pusher then lobby legislators to ban same-sex unions, like a good Christian pastor I bet you’d just LOVE to meet.  Just no belief in what isn’t there.  Q.E.D.

As for your personal choices, I can think of nothing more repulsive to have to read about.  Whatever you did to descend from human level is your business, don’t ya know?  But do remember that many others are striving upward, not downward like yourself.  For you are the one who has openly declared intellectual bankruptcy by chosing to believe in the most egregiously hateful filth ever foisted upon humanity. 

You need not challenge anyone, David from Florida.  You are unarmed, unlearned, and thoroughly unqualified to debate anything more strenuous than if Superman is “cooler” than Batman.  They’re both as real as Jesus, God, Thor, Athena, Achilles, or any other mythical figure.  Go to it, David!  Show us how you feel about Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne!  I really want to know, you grandiose gomeral.

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By Harlon57, May 4, 2007 at 3:30 pm Link to this comment

Annie,

Re: Harris vs Sullivan.  Harris spent much more time arguing the philosophy of goodness and understanding in humankind as he sees it, vs the religious stance vis’ a vis’ their verses.  He didn’t spend much time going toe-to-toe on verses.

Letter to a Christian Nation is only a best seller because his fan base, and the built in atheist/agostic base is buying them.  He really hasn’t sold that many. Less than 1/2 million copies. 

Compare the sales a couple hundred thousand of “Letter to a Christian Nation” versus Rick Warren’s “A Purpose Driven Life” which is still selling more than a million copies a month.  He has sold over 30 million of those to faith-heads.

Sam’s word isn’t being heard by many.

Dawkins, whom I greatly admire, is probably making things worse, not better.  Faith-heads have many rebuttal books so that they never need read The God Delusion.  Dawkins TGD is great as a call to action for non-believers.  But it isn’t resonating in religious circles.

Harris and Dawkins are really just preaching to the choir, though it is a positive development to activate atheists.

I think most people lose faith because they see the lack of christ-like attitudes in their fellow practitioners. 

I believe it is really taking a snobbish position to think that they don’t already, on their own, recognize the discrepancies in the bible. 

They see it and ignore it because it would crush the world view they have clung to for their entire lives.

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By David from Florida, May 4, 2007 at 3:11 pm Link to this comment
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In Exodus 21:22-25 God gives a specific law regarding social order for the Israelites. He stated that if two men were fighting and hit a pregnant woman, thus causing her to give birth prematurely, they must be fined according to any damage done to the baby. The fine must be paid in relation to the amount of damage inflicted upon the child. If God would make a law specifically referring to the rights of the unborn, then surely the unborn must mean something to Him!

In Psalm 137:8-9 The phrase about the infants is harsh because the psalmist is crying out for judgment:“Treat the Babylonians the way they treated us.”

Also I am confused how can you deny something you do not believe exists? If you believe it exists how can you deny it? I believe this is called circular reasoning.

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By Annie Reitano, May 4, 2007 at 3:00 pm Link to this comment

Harlon,

“I’m saying reason doesn’t require that one revert to arguing verses.”

But if we revert to arguing ENOUGH verses, those with the use of their own reasoning abilities will start to see the glaring contradictions. 

And yes, of course I read the debate between Harris and Sullivan.  But that leads me to wonder why Sam Harris debates all these religious people all the time and writes excellent petition type books like “Letter to a Christian Nation” if he didn’t believe (as I do) that there will be some who wake up from the coma. “Letter to a Christian Nation” was written TO Christians!  And when they do wake up, then more zombies will.  And eventually Christianity in this country will NOT dominate people’s lives and their hatred anymore.  Like with slavery and segregation, it will be very politically incorrect to do so. It may not stop it, but leaps will be made.  I hope I see this in my lifetime.

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By Harlon57, May 4, 2007 at 2:43 pm Link to this comment

Annie, did you follow the conversation between Sam Harris and Andrew Sullivan?

Early on, Sullivan admitted that he returned to faith in a very strong way when he learned there was something wrong with his mother and that he was HIV positive.  Harris did everything he could during the course of their several month-long conversation.  In the end. Sullivan retreated into his by then barely recognizable loving god.

I’m not saying that no christians will change. There are many reasons why a person will finally see the light. I’m just doubting that arguing verse for verse is effective.  We can all cite or copy verses from the bible.

I’m saying reason doesn’t require that one revert to arguing verses.

We can argue from the perspective of what has been learned about the world and our place in it using science and philosophy.

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By Jim H., May 4, 2007 at 2:42 pm Link to this comment
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68082: Con———-job?
Are you so mixed up and CONFUSED that when looking in the mirror and uttering those words “get HELP, get HELP, you are conscience stricken and remembering all those rapists you support and are proselytizing for, the paedophile priests, ministers, bishops, and the Pope, who is just as criminally guilty as the rats he and YOU, PROTECT and encourage in their filthy degrading sneaky, lowlife pursuit of enslaving children and fools of your own ilk?  And, are you driven to this serious need and resort, as a result of taking so much SADISTIC DELIGHT in knowing when another atrocious act has been performed by one of those “GODISTS, that you go around asking strangers: “Did it happen to you too? Did you, too, get raped by one of my cohorts? Ha! Ha!? 
You are very, very sick!  And, you may be BEYOND HELP!

Having without doubt read one or more of my very succinct postings, you here, expose to the world your bigoted hatred for reason, and a complete lack of intelligence, which you have replaced with a story book fairytale “Godism”, and a childlike attempt to discredit facts, by digressing from meaning, and the subject of this venue “REPORT”.  My written words, impossible to dispute, or realistically discredit, of the hard-to-swallow truth very likely caused you a gut-wrenching stab that slowly twisted in your abdomen, and crept burnigly up your spine to the cranial part of your anatomy where it now sits spurring you forth to make absurd pronouncements. However, NOTHING, I SAY AGAIN, NOTHING alters those facts about the nonexistence of a FAIRYTALE “Mickey Mouse, Santa Clause, your “Jesus” “Humpy Dumpty” and your “God”!
And unless you are a grammar school student, you should find it very easy to Learn THE TRUTH, if you so desire to!
Who created the creator, that created ‘YOUR’ “CREATOR”?
If you accept what is taught by the criminal charlatan purveyors of that “Godism” you believe in, you therefore believe that your make-believe “God” “ALWAYS WAS”! Or, WAS “WITHOUT A BEGINNING”? which in fact, is a valid description of the “ORIGIN OF NATURE”!  And, when a beginning cannot be determined, or found, a ‘so called’ “Creator” is a superfluous absurdity!  For simple minded people to better comprehend this seeming dichotomy, I suggest you, and they ‘stare at’, and concentrate on a ‘circle’, and, point to a beginning! Or, a ‘creation’ point!  Then, when you ‘give up’, read this:
THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground
Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end
Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence
Jim H. 8/29/06
Your “Jesus” is a fairytale character like “Porky Pig” and “Mickey Mouse”!

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By Annie Reitano, May 4, 2007 at 2:32 pm Link to this comment

#68181 by Harlon57 on 5/04 at 11:33 am
(19 comments total)

Harlon,

I know what you say is partly true.  However, I was a troll on ReligiousForums.com and learned so much from the diests there that it got me to reading Thomas Paine.  That got me to reading other things of reason and on and on… And if I can be de-brainwashed—so can any troll—even though they’ll never admit it.  What a Christian WON’T tell you, is that they don’t follow biblical teachings by being good and their ORDER to be righteous is not primary.  It is well behind just being plain right.  That is why they’re hateful even in spite of their belief that Jesus taught love (which he did at TIMES in hipocritical fashion).  MY point is, if you and I can see it, though a Christian or Muslim or Jew may not say it, someone has to have enough sense to see that this was a rule book that wasn’t written for today.  For Pete’s sake!  The rules weren’t even the same regarding the law of the land then.  For example, Jesus said that you have to give up all your wealth and follow him if you’re to enter the kingdom of Heaven.  Full stop.  Yet how many Christians do you see doing this?  Not too many.  Why?  Because God is made in their image and this book is their idol that they fashion to suit themselves.

When the truth is seen, it’s anger first, then sadness, then the reality sets in and you’re free!  I believe in the ability of people to overcome this ridiculousness.

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By Annie Reitano, May 4, 2007 at 2:18 pm Link to this comment

#68087 by The Messenger on 5/04 at 3:56 am
(Unregistered commenter)

“Knowing just words in the Bible is a big waste of time.
Application of the Bible is not.”

Knowing words of the Bible according to Christianity is to know the Truth as it’s supposedly the very word of God.  And you can believe I do, although I got the whole truth and nothing but—by studying those words, their meaning and the people who lived during the time they were written.  And it’s fascinating that YHWH never put pen to paper ONE TIME!  Only men did!  Face it.  You idolised the words of men because you have no mind for yourself. 

“You have not heard or applied what you have read.

Oh contrare.  I was a missionary for 20 years.  That being said, though, I never started APPLYING those words in that book, until I realised I was duped. Just like you think Islam and the Jews are. 

“The only person condemning you to hell is yourself. You don’t believe in it, therefore, your going there unless you change your mind.”

Really?  Please then show me ONE verse that says that in order to be saved, I must believe in hell.  smile


Jesus’ words:

But if that evil servant says in his heart, my master is delaying his coming and begins to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, “and will cut him in two and apoint his portion with the hypocrites,. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24, 48-51.”

The word “servant” there and every place else Jesus spoke of “servants” in Greek means “slave”.  The Greek word is “doulos”  It’s an interesting parable that Jesus makes—but then again, he lived in a time of slavery and even condoned it. So, having shown you that, do you know what else Jesus wanted from the slaves?

“And that servant,[slave] which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.” (Luke 12:47-48) The entire context (Luke 12:41-48) shows that this is not part of a parable—it is the explanation of a parable, after Peter asked a question. But even if it were a parable, it would carry the same weight as a teaching of Jesus

“(there’s more where that came from)”

Yes, indeed there is! 

You cannot “know” anything you do not “believe”.

I believe the bible was written by bronze age tribesmen of the desert and I know it as a fact.  Why are only 18 countries mentioned in the bible?  Why does “God” say that we use our heart to think, and our kidneys to feel emotion?  You would think the Almighty would know the anatomy—but he does not.

“You have stepped over the line and have become the “evil” one that is the Christians enemy. God fights my battle behind the scenes. He will handle this situation, not I.
I’m only a messenger.”

Yea, yea, and I am also the evil enemy of Islam and Judaism.  But then again, so are you.  wink  You say any of this in an Islamic country and Allah will SHOW you just what he thinks of you.  You’ll get “handled” alright.  wink

By the way, and this is rhetorical; have you been “defiled” by a woman?  Because if you have, you won’t be a part of that heavenly choir that you think you’re going to audition for.  smile

“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads. . . . And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb withersoever he goeth.” (Revelation 14:1-4)

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By Harlon57, May 4, 2007 at 1:07 pm Link to this comment

Christopher Hitchens said:

“Religion ends and philosophy begins, just as alchemy ends and chemistry begins and astrology ends, and astronomy begins.”

That’s perfect.

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By Harlon57, May 4, 2007 at 12:33 pm Link to this comment

Annie,

Messenger is an obvious troll.  He isn’t spewing bible verses to match wits or to convert you. He is spewing vitriol just to get us jumpstarted.

I’ve been on the RichardDawkins.net website for several months.  I’ve seen hundreds of these threads.  The bible thumpers always maintain their faith because it does not require reason. In fact it thrives in the absence of reason.

I was raised as a catholic. Was an altar boy. Went to a catholic school.  I started losing my faith by the time I was about 8 years old.  All the hate and those many discrepancies in the bible, and the lack of christianity in the christians I was surrounded by, all helped me lose my faith.

Real faith heads looking for these threads have all heard the discrepancies and have decided it doesn’t matter.  Christ is loving and that negates all else.

Their god is malleable.  He can fit into any shape they need to make their case and to feel good.

They don’t care about your interpretation of the bible, for gods sake you are an atheist. Of course you misread the bible (in their opinion). 

They don’t care about your facts or your reasoning.

They don’t reason.

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By The Messenger, May 4, 2007 at 4:56 am Link to this comment
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Knowing just words in the Bible is a big waste of time.
Application of the Bible is not.

You have not heard or applied what you have read. You see Annie, your purpose is to try and make a Christian shut-up through twisting the truth. Not going to happen here. I walk in truth. It is my goal.

The only person condemning you to hell is yourself. You don’t believe in it, therefore, your going there unless you change your mind. It’s easy to understand.

Jesus’ words:

But if that evil servant says in his heart,  my master is delaying his coming and begins to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, “and will cut him in two and apoint his portion with the hypocrites,. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24, 48-51.

(there’s more where that came from)

You cannot “know” anything you do not “believe”.

You are not the sick and helpless. You are not the hungry that needs food. You have stepped over the line and have become the “evil” one that is the Christians enemy. God fights my battle behind the scenes. He will handle this situation, not I.
I’m only a messenger.

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By Concerned, May 4, 2007 at 3:24 am Link to this comment
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Jim please get HELP, with all your talk about rape of little children,and criminal pedophiles. You are either obsessed with it or something bad happened to you.Either way please get HELP!

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By Annie Reitano, May 3, 2007 at 11:10 pm Link to this comment

#68029 by David from Florida on 5/03 at 6:41 pm
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“It is philosophically impossible to be an atheist, since to be an atheist you must have infinite knowledge in order to know absolutely that there is no God.”

Nope!  The atheist’s stance is the DENIAL of the existence of ANY deity based on lack of evidence for such a being.  As Stephen Roberts so aptly put it, “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

“The Bible says in Psalm 14:1,“The fool says in his heart,’There is no God.’”

Yes, but it’s the wise man who says it out loud.  smile

The Bible says a lot of things.  For example, since you’re quoting King David, let’s see what God really thinks about abortion.  In Exodus 21:22-25 we read that if a man accidentally kills a pregnant woman, that man should be condemned for committing murder. However, if he only kills the fetus - that is, if she miscarries - he is not condemned for murder. Clearly, then, God does not consider the pre-born fetus as being the same as a human being, in which case the Commandment of “Thou Shalt Not Kill (a human)” does not apply. Read it!

Now let’s look at what King David says in Psalm 137:8,9 ” “O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, when he seizeth your infants and dasheth them against the stones.” (Psalm 137:8-9)KJV

How lovely!

Now David, you tell me why after 38 years you were duped into believing the Bible; and I will tell you why after 40 years I realised I had been no less duped than you think Islamics are.

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By Annie Reitano, May 3, 2007 at 10:53 pm Link to this comment

#68034 by The Messenger on 5/03 at 7:21 pm
(Unregistered commenter)
You said:

“It’s always some loser they conjure up from who knows where.”

Wow! What losers were you speaking of after the claim that God so loved the WORLD—and in fact, hung out with the “losers” that you’re speaking of and supposedly died for them.  (John 3:16)-as the tale of the bible goes.  You really don’t even pay attention in church, do you?  Assuming you go. 

“All of you have hundreds of different views on what is right.”

Now, Messenger, I think you’re getting religious denominations confused with atheists who hold individual ideas about life.  There are over 20,000 denominations based on Christianity. 

RE: #68027 Messenger

“Truth is love, Annie. I thought you knew your Bible. “

Gee, golly.  Then I guess you don’t know a thing about love at all.  Condemning people to hell right off the bat is NOT what Jesus supposedly did in the bible, was it?  God!  You really DON’T read that thing, do you?  Let me give you the biblical scenario on what the bible has to offer regarding love. 

God is (agape)unconditional love.  Oh!  But with the condition that you believe in Jesus or he will burn and torment you forever and ever. 

If that’s your belief regarding true love, Messenger, it’s certianly not mine.  And it’s no wonder you come into a forum spewing hellfire and hatred. The God you serve is conditional, mysoginistic, infanticidal, genocidal and just a pure maniac.  Jesus didn’t DIE for you or me.  According to the bible he resurrected which makes him ALIVE.  But the Bible does say he was in hell for three days.  So, was he a soul?  Did he burn in the tortuous flames you peddle here?  When he “arose”, he said “Do not touch me for I have not yet ascended to the Father” after the women found and recognised him at the tomb (although, it’s interesting to point out that he had no problem telling Thomas to thrust his hand into the hole in his side) Mysoginy? Or perhaps a man-made error?  You decide, scholar.  wink

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By Jim H., May 3, 2007 at 9:20 pm Link to this comment
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Annie Reitano;
BRAVO!  Thank you for the ‘very’ apropos quote from Emmet F. Fields!
And thank you for many delightful Secular phrases the ‘contrary’ fools and detractors have trouble comprehending, which perhaps can be reduced to, and en-capsulated “Faith is the antithesis of reason!”

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By Annie Reitano, May 3, 2007 at 9:11 pm Link to this comment

Sorry Harlon,

My English was really crappy on that last one.  I have a bad habit of talking on the phone and still trying to make a point here.

I meant “It may not look like it works to you”

Also, faith heads don’t give a damn about evolution.  Their idol is the bible, qur’an, etc.  Use those.  Thank you.

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By Annie Reitano, May 3, 2007 at 9:06 pm Link to this comment

Harlon57

I disagree.  I read a page somewhere about how to fight the religious right.  I also believe Sam Harris spoke about it.  Anyway, the best way to “fight” the religious right is by using their own book.  Most faith heads aren’t even aware of what the bible really says.  They’re mostly just a group of people who are following what someone told them all their life (brainwashed) or what they needed to hear in their life from peers (such as AA and the like).  The heal their ills with their own mind and become extremely dogmatic regarding what they PERCEIVED healed it.  i.e. The Bible, Qur’an, etc.

It may not look like to works to you, but as an ex Christian (and Dan Barker expressed this in his book “Losing Faith in Faith” as well) they’re thinking…and when you show it from their own book, they may not say it out loud and they still may scream “hellfire and brimstone to YOU!”  But that’s only because a nerve has been struck.

I know as well as anyone, how well this works to disarm the Christian right as well as Islam.  Books for you to read:  “Long Way Gone”. “Losing Faith in Faith” and “Infidel”.  All three deal with seeing the truth through the words and actions of non-theistic people, and all three writers are now atheistic.

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By Jim H., May 3, 2007 at 8:57 pm Link to this comment
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Mr. Messanger?
YOU ARE NOT OF THIS WORLD!
Christians and other ‘Godists’ comprise 95% of prison populations, including those ‘types’ you refer to, “lying murderers”, “bank robbers”, and “pathetic” (indoctrinated robots) with “no (other) “purpose or mission” in life! Are you implying ‘they’ are accountable to your (fairyland) “God”, and are fearful “believe”-rs, in your (make-believe) “hell”? And, what about all those Christian Priests, Bishops, Ministers, and the Pope, who rape little children; or, protect the guilty criminal paedophiles, are they too, the examples you want to point to, or imply that ALL people should emulate? You demonstrate less intelligence than a trained chipmunk! Perhaps you ought to try to explain why ‘you believe’ anyone should replace their ‘reason’ with ‘your’ ‘faith’? then, ‘IF’ you can PROVE the ‘being’, or existance, or any REASON for believing in, or accepting your idea of “GOD”,  perhaps? you would not appear the pompous pedantic idiot you now apparently are?

“Faith” is the ‘antithesis’ of reason!
“CREATOR”?
Who, or what created your “Creator”?  And, who, or what created that which, created the who, or what, that created ‘YOUR’ “CREATOR”? Or; what, created the creator, that created the creator, that created the creator, that created ‘YOUR’ “CREATOR”?
If you accept what is taught by the criminal charlatan purveyors of that “Godism” you believe in, you therefore believe that your make-believe “God” “ALWAYS WAS”! Or, WAS “WITHOUT A BEGINNING”? which in fact, is a valid description of the “ORIGIN OF NATURE”!  And, when a beginning cannot be determined, or found, a ‘so called’ “Creator” is a superflous absurdity!  For simple minded people to better comprehend this seeming dichotomy, I suggest you, and they ‘stare at’, and concentrate on a ‘circle’, and, point to a begining! or, a ‘creation’ point!  Then, when you ‘give up’, read this:
THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground
Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end
Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence
Jim H. 8/29/06
Your “Jesus” is a fairytale character like “Porky Pig” and “Mickey Mouse”!

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By The Messenger, May 3, 2007 at 8:21 pm Link to this comment
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To David from Florida:

Greetings to you:
Have you noticed that when you approach a non-believer that they always use a negative example of a Christian to try and disarm your point? It’s strange isn’t it?
It is like telling someone your black and they start comparing you to some black guy who robbed a bank last week instead of Martin Luther King. Or telling them that your white and they compare you to Lee Harvey Oswald instead of Abraham Lincoln. They never talk about strong leaders like Billy Graham or Bill Bright. It’s always some loser they conjure up from who knows where.
Amazing. I guess when you feel lost and do not know how to respond properly, you tend to grab hold of the negative instead of the positive. 

Blessings to you,
The Messenger

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By Harlon57, May 3, 2007 at 8:13 pm Link to this comment

Annie, I doubt that being an expert theologian, any more than being an expert fairyologist will impress Messenger.

Knowing all the ins and outs of a false ideology or faith will do no more than allow the faith-holder to fight on their ground.

I believe it is all much simpler:

1)Big bang or some other scientific explanation for the beginning of the universe.

2)Evolution as we now understand it and as it is continually refined.

3)Here we are.

4)Now it is up to us to find the answers to our questions and to provide meaning for our lives and order to civilization.

Science and philosophy will do just fine.

See how easy it is…Thank you.

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By David from Florida, May 3, 2007 at 7:41 pm Link to this comment
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It is philosophically impossible to be an atheist, since to be an atheist you must have infinite knowledge in order to know absolutely that there is no God. But to have infinite knowledge, you would have to be God yourself. It’s hard to be God yourself and an atheist at the same time! The Bible says in Psalm 14:1,“The fool says in his heart,‘There is no God.’”

    Atheism is not a valid philosophy. It is intellectually bankrupt and demonstrates a willful denial of all that God has revealed. It is the very denial of the world around us and all the stars in the heavens.


    But it is one of many choices we are given,that is what we all should remember. Jesus is the choice I made after 38 years of the darkest lie I know. And if you want to challenge me on that, let’s do it.

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By The Messenger, May 3, 2007 at 7:16 pm Link to this comment
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Definition of love:

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life   John 3:16

If you are waiting for me to make you feel all warm and cozy while you trash the word of God and blaspheme against my savior - you have lost your minds.

I will tell you like it is. The truth. The part you don’t want to hear. If you want to hear a “love” sermon go stand in front of the church on Sunday morning and wait for little old ladies to come out that don’t have the energy to deal with you. 

Truth is love, Annie. I thought you knew your Bible.

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By The Messenger, May 3, 2007 at 6:31 pm Link to this comment
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Who, I say who, on this earth can determine what “good ” is? Would that be you? Or one of your dead relatives? Answer: No one.
Therefore, those of you who do not believe in punishment for sins without a savior (Jesus) - have no guidelines. You are merely walking around making up rules as you hear them from whatever source you choose. What was your view last year and the year before? You change your mind as often as you change your attitude.  The proof of your hopelessness is in your inconsistency. All of you have hundreds of different views on what is right. For you acquiring “good” is like shopping for shoes,..... well, I like these but not these…... I choose to put on this one it looks “good”. Get real. Hello, can you hear me? Or are you as deaf as you are blind? There are still people out there shrinking heads you know! In some distant country. Oh, but wait you wouldn’t know that would you? I mean you don’t visit those people to share what is good do you? That is up to the Christians. I keep forgetting that what is important to you isn’t important enough to go out of your way to tell others the “good news”.

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By Annie Reitano, May 3, 2007 at 6:20 pm Link to this comment

To David,

A Quote from Emmet F Fields:

“Once we can look at religion objectively and impartially, it becomes entirely obvious that religion has all the characteristics of a form of insanity. To one degree or another the religious mind must accept, and believe in, another world; a supernatural or unnatural world, a world filled with all sorts of imaginary beings called gods, devils, angels, saints, demons, etc. These imaginary creatures are talked to, asked for favors, guidance, “signs”, or miracles, and then blamed or thanked for natural events that follow. Except for the cloak of religion, such beliefs and actions would otherwise cause an individual to be judged insane, and committed to an institution for treatment.”

-Emmet F. Fields

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By Annie Reitano, May 3, 2007 at 6:16 pm Link to this comment

#68016 by The Messenger on 5/03 at 4:35 pm
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Messenger,

That’s not much of a post, love.  And as Harlon57 pointed out, it’s extremely revealing of what keeps YOU in line—-hell.  You speak of Jesus who would, according to the book of lies (i.e.) bible, would in ‘no wise’ cast any of us aside—yet you think you can.  You’ve placed yourself above your own Saviour.  Imagine the torments of hell that will await YOU for that one.  wink  Also, you mentioned us begging.  Didn’t Jesus help the beggars, one of whom was blind?? 

Do you go to Westboro Baptist Church?  Oh, and by the way, I will have a “bible off” with you ANY DAY!!!  I KNOW my bible, chum.  I used to LIVE that shit.  Let’s do it!  Until then, say “hi” to Pastor Phelps, the closet homosexual, for me.  smile

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By Harlon57, May 3, 2007 at 5:56 pm Link to this comment

What a shallow message from the messenger. I guess the messenger has no reason to be good beyond the fear of hell. That makes you a bad person, messenger.  You aren’t good for the sake of being good.

Also exhibits a very shallow thought process; that man can’t find purpose for his life without betraying reason by following a bronze age text.

A shallow lie. That the messenger has been bedside for several dying atheists. Pure conjecture, and not very intellectually stimulating.

A shallow existence; messenger would be a thieving, lazy, murderous lout without his crutch, the bible.

Messenger, you don’t look like much to follow. My guess is that if there is a hell, you’ll be right at home there.

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By The Messenger, May 3, 2007 at 5:35 pm Link to this comment
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Without damnation and hellfire your life would be nothing but one big joke (and to some of you that is exactly where you stand right now). Why worry about lying, murder, or robbing banks? I mean you people can pretty much do what you want according to your non-existent set of values. What a pathetic life. You have no purpose or mission. Why even get a job, just beg your whole life until you’re out of here. It wouldn’t matter would it? I mean in your eyes your not accountable for anything.  You cannot tell me that if you don’t believe in hell that you care anything about the law here on earth. Those of you who say they do not believe in hell are probably lying. You are the very people that are destroying our environment (I don’t mean tree hugging either), clogging up our justice system , ruining our schools and workplaces and God’s creation overall. You’ll change your mind about hell when you get there. To those of you who do not know the Bible, stop quoting it. You sound like a first grade student explaining how to perform advanced brain surgery.
I’ve seen too many people on their death bed wanting to accept Jesus! Some barely make it out of hell. Your day’s coming, just remember one out of one people die. And by the way what do you people say at your relatives funerals? Somebody please tape one of these for me: “He was a grand amoeba that is now back to the earth”. “He had no purpose and now he’s gone”.

Please someone tape one of these I’m dying to hear a funeral about a non-believer. How many of you have been to funerals where they start talking about God and you know the person didn’t even walk with God? That is another great lie. Stop doing that. Tell the truth. The person went to hell and that is the end. You live this way you must die this way. Stop using the Bible and our way when it’s convenient for you and using it against us at other times. Oh, by the way I believe in the Big Bang Theory: here it is….. Big Bang Boom your in hell.

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By David from Florida, May 3, 2007 at 3:44 pm Link to this comment
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RE #67576 by Logician on 5/01

A quote from Daniel Webster;


    If we abide by the principles taught in the Bible, our country will go on prospering and to prosper; but if we and our posterity neglect its instructions and authority, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us and bury all our glory in profound obscurity.


                -Daniel Webster

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By Annie Reitano, May 3, 2007 at 6:19 am Link to this comment

#67860 by Harlon57 on 5/02 at 8:58 pm
(15 comments total)

“Annie, Christianity, and all the other pretenders to the truth, are false.  Nothing more than the superstitions of early humankind. Early guesses at how things came to be, and to how we are as we are.

Science and philosophy answer so many more questions.

Without the ridiculous damnation and hellfire”

Yes!  I am fully aware of that one!  But I thought you were saying that it is no more less true—wait, let me post what you said: “Christianity is just one of the latest of thousands of historical religions. No more or less true than the others.”

Which makes me question, aren’t they all lies?  They ARE peoples ways of trying to figure out human nature and natural disasters, etc.  It’s mythology, of course.  I guess I didn’t understand.

Skeptic Al,

“Sorry. You asked:“What makes us all such self proclaimed experts each so far greater in his or her own mind then the ones surrounding them thinking the very same thing?”

Nothing—so long as we’re thinking the same thing. I gest.  My beliefs are based on evidence.  Contrary to my sometimes sarcastic position here, you’ll find I know quite a bit about the ancient unholy hoax books. 

“When we honestly cut it down to the basic fact of the matter, we are all idiots, aren’t we?”

We are both idiots and brilliant.  Just like we are both beautiful, (the artist) and the same hands that tear down. (war mongers).  It’s the ying and yang.  But no, I don’t think we’re ‘just’ idiots.

“Isn’t it kind of silly how we bicker and jab at each other?  Isn’t it foolish?”

Well, maybe silly.  But never-the-less it’s FUN!  And is it foolish to be human?  I don’t think there’s anything we can do about it if it is.  We are bound by the laws of nature.  Just because we’re all people, doesn’t mean we all have to be alike and never fight.  Ants are ants but are very different.  Put a carpenter ant in a colony of red ants and soon you will have them being violent to one another.  We are no less bound to those same laws of nature.

Douglas Chalmers,

No, I don’t want to be your “mommy”.

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By Skeptic Al, May 2, 2007 at 10:47 pm Link to this comment
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As, I said…idiots. The very, very best of you were educated to the point of stupidity. Apparently what I said hit home because nobody had any idea how to confront it. So what do we do? It’s hard to grow up but eventually somebody has to do it…who’s with me? Let’s start at the very beginning. Who was there?

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By Douglas Chalmers, May 2, 2007 at 10:14 pm Link to this comment

#67855 by Annie Reitano on 5/02 at 8:42 pm: “...Douglas, which is it?  Am I a modern American woman set out to get “the man”, or am I a guy posing as a woman?  Wait!  Before you decide, think really hard, deal with your “mommy, mommy” issues, and then answer…”

Well, if an agenda of male-bashing is what you call “modern”, then you have it, AR.

Now, are you going to try being my “mommy” after Marina’s failed attempts?

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By Harlon57, May 2, 2007 at 9:58 pm Link to this comment

Annie, Christianity, and all the other pretenders to the truth, are false.  Nothing more than the superstitions of early humankind. Early guesses at how things came to be, and to how we are as we are.

Science and philosophy answer so many more questions.

Without the ridiculous damnation and hellfire.

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By Annie Reitano, May 2, 2007 at 9:42 pm Link to this comment

Harlon57,

Which is it?  Today’s religions are either true or they’re not.  I mean, I don’t see any gray areas with truth.  Like the old maxim; a half truth is a whole lie.

#67839 by Douglas Chalmers on 5/02 at 7:16 pm
(230 comments total)

Oh, snickers! So you really are a guy posing as a woman, haha!?!?

So, Douglas, which is it?  Am I a modern American woman set out to get “the man”, or am I a guy posing as a woman?  Wait!  Before you decide, think really hard, deal with your “mommy, mommy” issues, and then answer!  smile

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By Marina, May 2, 2007 at 9:01 pm Link to this comment

>I had a point to make and you ignored it for the chance to take your turn in attacking me.>

Douglas, no one “attacked” you, for goodness sake. You were directly addressing me (about Annie) in a message. If you had been a friend who was standing in my kitchen and had used that derogatory comment about another person, I would have told you the same thing. Calling someone a “transvestite fag” is ugly. You know it, I know it, and you are just upset because I called you on it.

>“if everybody sweeps their own doorstep, then all of the doorsteps in the street will be clean.”>

If I saw someone sweeping their own dirt onto their neighbor’s porch, I would say something because it helps the neighbor who is getting dirt extra dirt on their porch and it helps the offender to see their wrong doing, thus, giving them a chance to correct it.

>Already with Annie, I got the impression that the modern American woman has not only little respect for the men in the community but that they are willing to shout and stamp their feet in order to have things solely their own way. You seem to be confirming that, Marina.>

Men need to be told the truth as much as women do. Your male ego is showing. 

>...women are as guilty of causing wars and as much responsible for wars as men ever were or are. That includes the invasion of Iraq, the invasion of Vietnam and the invasion of Korea which all occurred in the last 57 years and after the end of the last real war. It also includes the ludicrous “global war on terror”.>

I agree, because many women have been silently approving of war because they go about their day and don’t speak up, they say they are too busy or too afraid, or too whatever. God help us all because of people who remain silent.

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By Douglas Chalmers, May 2, 2007 at 8:16 pm Link to this comment

#67831 by Annie Reitano on 5/02 at 6:58 pm: “...With that last chauvenistic, not to mention WAY OFF TOPIC, rant, all I have to say is ; quit whining like a little girl and take your medicine.  *Snicker*...”

Oh, snickers! So you really are a guy posing as a woman, haha!?!?

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By Harlon57, May 2, 2007 at 8:09 pm Link to this comment

Science does not require “love-bombing” of an individual to allow that individual to see the truth.

The truth can be predicted, shown, tested, verified and reproduced.

Don’t separate yourself from your innate sense of logic and reason.

Christianity is just one of the latest of thousands of historical religions. No more or less true than the others.  All religions are just bronze age and older attempts to understand the world in which we live and our place in it.

We can use science and philosophy in their place.

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By Annie Reitano, May 2, 2007 at 7:58 pm Link to this comment

#67823 by Douglas Chalmers on 5/02 at 6:17 pm
(226 comments total)

Douglas,

With that last chauvenistic, not to mention WAY OFF TOPIC, rant, all I have to say is ; quit whining like a little girl and take your medicine. wink

*Snicker*

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By Douglas Chalmers, May 2, 2007 at 7:17 pm Link to this comment

#67687 by Marina on 5/02 at 7:09 am: “...If more people in this world would call others on their bad behavior or unkindness then there would be lot less ugliness in the world. Silence is approval….”
I did that and you called it rudeness, Marina. I had a point to make and you ignored it for the chance to take your turn in attacking me. If you refer to that as “call others on their bad behavior”, its no wonder that the USA is in trouble.

There is an old Chinese saying that “if everybody sweeps their own doorstep, then all of the doorsteps in the street will be clean”. If you and Annie tried applying that to yourselves before lambasting others with your presumed righteous indignation, things would have already progressed.

Already with Annie, I got the impression that the modern American woman has not only little respect for the men in the community but that they are willing to shout and stamp their feet in order to have things solely their own way. You seem to be confirming that, Marina.

As a covert agenda, then, that thus ensures that the teachings of Jesus which you spout about will have little or no chance of surviving or succeeding as a philosophy of reason. It would appear that women don’t want equality with men but domination of men - subjugation and total control.

Not only that, but I would ask to what extent have American women already manipulated men to bet whatever they want at any cost? Directly or indirectly, that included sending “the male race” off to war or at least approving of wars which seem to satisfy womens’ perceived needs in some way.

In other words, women are as guilty of causing wars and as much responsible for wars as men ever were or are. That includes the invasion of Iraq, the invasion of Vietnam and the invasion of Korea which all occurred in the last 57 years and after the end of the last real war. It also includes the ludicrous “global war on terror”.

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By Annie Reitano, May 2, 2007 at 2:33 pm Link to this comment

Hi again, Marina,

“Someone on this forum had mentioned Einstein with regards to Jesus. This is what Einstein said about Jesus in an interview he gave to The Saturday Evening Post, in 1929:

“I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene.”

Einstein may have been ‘enthralled’ with the Nazarene, but he also stated time and again that he didn’t believe in a personal god.  I can understand people being enthralled with Jesus and Mohammed even if they don’t believe in them.  I certainly know all I need to about Jesus, but I would love to learn first hand about Mohammed.  These are historical people that should be learned from and reckoned with.

Also, Gandhi, who was a Hindu, was “enthralled” with the Nazarene as well.  He said “I like your Christ.  I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ”.  But bear in mind, he was not so much well versed in ways of the bible as he was well learned by the people who TAUGHT him about Jesus and the bible.

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By Marina, May 2, 2007 at 8:09 am Link to this comment

Douglas,

>Frankly, I don’t need a lecture from either of you. And don’t go getting off on pretending that you’re my “mother” simply because Annie said so.>

If you will notice, I included myself. I said “we humans need to watch our bad thoughts.” I have said ugly things to others in my day. My message to you was to point out the truth, to stand up for the truth. If more people in this world would call others on their bad behavior or unkindness then there would be lot less ugliness in the world. Silence is approval.

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By Annie Reitano, May 2, 2007 at 6:00 am Link to this comment

#67639 by Godless America on 5/01 at 9:51 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

“My god, i was in Amway for three months (just long enough to make a complete fool out of myself)and i swear, they use the EXACT same brainwashing tactics!But, if you google the DeVous family who founded Amway, you’ll see why”


Don’t feel too badly about Amway, Godless.  I was in Christianity for about 40 years and I am 44 years old.  The last four years has taken a lot of studying to de-brainwash me.  Now I could never believe any of that.  Truly, I know too much about past gods and the history of all of this.  Anyway, imagine how much money I lost over 40 years.

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By Douglas Chalmers, May 2, 2007 at 1:43 am Link to this comment

#67594 by Marina on 5/01 at 6:55 pm: “...Douglas: I had previoulsy stood up for you, but what you said to Annie .....We humans need to watch our bad thoughts…”

Frankly, I don’t need a lecture from either of you. And don’t go getting off on pretending that you’re my “mother” simply because Annie said so.

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By Godless America, May 1, 2007 at 10:51 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

My god, i was in Amway for three months (just long enough to make a complete fool out of myself)and i swear, they use the EXACT same brainwashing tactics!But, if you google the DeVous family who founded Amway, you’ll see why

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By Annie Reitano, May 1, 2007 at 10:21 pm Link to this comment

For fun, let’s look at Jesus’ view of slavery.  smile

““And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.” (Luke 12:47-48) The entire context (Luke 12:41-48) shows that this is not part of a parable—it is the explanation of a parable, after Peter asked a question. But even if it were a parable, it would carry the same weight as a teaching of Jesus.

The word “servant” above is doulos, which means “slave” in Greek, and is correctly rendered “slave” by the NRSV, NAS, Scholar’s Version, and the Vulgate. “Shall” meant “should,” as Jesus adds: “For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required.” (Luke 12:48)

—Jesus never denounced slavery: he endorsed it! He incorporated it into his teachings as if it were the most natural order (which it was for the biblical writers who didn’t know any better). Why doesn’t the bible—supposedly inspired by an all-loving deity—ever hint that there is something wrong with such a brutal social institution? If it were not for the influence of the bible the appalling American slave trade might have been curtailed, along with the bloody Civil War.

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By Annie Reitano, May 1, 2007 at 10:14 pm Link to this comment

#67597 by Marina on 5/01 at 7:03 pm
(45 comments total

Marina,  You’re interpreting Luke to make Jesus seem like he was the kinder face of god—which the writers of the gospels DID try and make him appear to be.  But it was all politcal to piss the Jews off and NOWHERE in the Talmud is Jesus mentioned..only the discouragement of following Christianity whose church was headed up by Petr and Paul.  Paul never even knew Jesus.

Also, Jesus was never mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls as they were written before his time.  In fact, the Dead Sea Scrolls have many more stories of David than what’s in the OT, and more stories regarding Abraham as well.  Why were these omitted from the OT?  Who knows?  The bottom line is, Jesus wasn’t mentioned.  That’s why there’s a “dig” on this site called “Jesus, Man or Myth” because no one knows if he even existed.  I think he did and was a rebel for a cause against the Jews.  Look how well it worked. 

As for Jesus himself as he was written; he was a “do as I say, not as I do” kind of deity.

Jesus reveals the BRIBE and reward for forsaking your family:

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

-Matthew 19:29 [also see Luke 18:29-30]

What would you think of a boss who rebuked a worker for wishing to bury his recently deceased father and instead, insisted that the worker follow him? According to the Bible, Jesus responded to a request from a disciple who wished to attend to his father’s funeral:

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury the dead.

-Matthew 8:22

You won’t see anti-abortionists citing this verse. It applies to Judas; note how the last part plays right into abortion:

“The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed!IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER FOR THAT MAN IF HE HAD NOT BEEN BORN.”

-Matthew 26:24

Also, some Christians do not believe in the Trinity or that Jesus equals God but rather that he lived as a flesh and blood man created and sent from God. Unfortunately, this does not dismiss Jesus from his admission towards killing. According to the New Testament, Jesus upholds all the laws of the Old Testament:

“Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled.”

-Matthew: 5:17-18

Parts of the Law that Jesus came to fulfill include the stoning of a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night, (Deutoronomy) stoning to death your rebellious son, etc.  And let’s not forget the drowning of the entire world with the exception of the drunk guy just because Jesus was mad at what HE himself had created.  And yes, it was Jesus.  Who else would have “walked” in the cool of the garden calling out, “Adam, Adam, where are you?”  Not the God of Moses.  He could only be seen in shadown behind a rock or in the form of a burning bush. Bear in mind, Jesus was walking AFTER they had supposedly sinned.  It’s a sham.  The whole book has more holes than a porcupines underwear.

As far as turning the other cheek to your enemies?  is that what Jesus did?  No, his were cursed and called, dogs, vipers and hipocrites full of dead men’s bones, etc.  He was not a nice guy AND he was a hipocrite since he told his followers to pray for their persecutors and forgive them.  There is NOTHING to suggest that he ever prayed for HIS enemies.  And when a Roman soldier smacked him—Jesus gave back talk—not the other cheek.

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By Harlon57, May 1, 2007 at 8:24 pm Link to this comment

Marina,
Einstein may have accepted that there was a man named Jesus, but he did not believe in the concept of a soul outside of the body nor did he believe in a personal god.  That makes his acceptance of Jesus pointless. In Einstein’s view, Jesus was just a man. Nothing more.

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By Marina, May 1, 2007 at 8:03 pm Link to this comment

To all:

I had mentioned in some of my posts that I would follow up on some points.

Regarding the matter of Luke 14:26 where Jesus wants His followers to “hate” their parents and family in order to be His disciples. The laws of Christ forbid us to hate others, even our enemies. This verse needs to be read in context with the previous verses and also read with intelligent discrimination. The previous verses show that Jesus was trying to teach that God is always to be put first, that people need to despise the things of this world. Jesus is saying that if family keeps a person from God then we must walk away from them, let go of them. We do not hold hatred in our hearts for them, but rather, hate that they keep us from God.

Regarding historical documents about Christ. Annie had said that He is only mentioned in the bible. I showed her that Jesus is also found in the Talmud. In addition, Jesus is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, in documents of the Essenes, in Muslim documents, and in writings of Pontius Pilate to Caesar.

Someone on this forum had mentioned Einstein with regards to Jesus. This is what Einstein said about Jesus in an interview he gave to The Saturday Evening Post, in 1929:

“I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene.”

When asked if he accepts the historical Jesus, Einstein replied: “Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.” (George Sylvester Viereck, “What Life Means to Einstein”, The Saturday Evening Post, 26 October 1929)

I also wanted to follow up on hell. I spoke with a spiritual advisor, and I was in error to say there is no hell, and that hell is only a state of mind. I was informed that a hell of torment does exist for souls who have fallen deep into darkness. This would probably be people like the recent Virginia Tech killer. Souls who have not fallen into terrible evil, but who have done lesser wrongs do come back to earth instead of going to hell and they reincarnate to work out their karma. Yes, this is only a belief, but I wanted to clarify where I was wrong in my understanding of hell.

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By Marina, May 1, 2007 at 7:55 pm Link to this comment

Douglas:

I had previoulsy stood up for you, but what you said to Annie was not neccessary and was pretty darn unkind. ...“and other comments makes me wonder if she really is a woman or rather perhaps a transvestite fag pretending to be one while he(she) pursues his(her) agenda…” She may or may not have an agenda here, but referring to her as a “tansvestite fag” is not only ugly, but not a Christ-like comment. We humans need to watch our bad thoughts about others and to always remember the golden rule, even when someone angers us or says unkind things.

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By Jim H., May 1, 2007 at 7:37 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hello Logician;
Re: Your post 67576,  BRAVO!!!  And, thank you for providing several additions to my vocabulary ‘ammunition’ for relogating those “cretin” criminal imberciles who suppport those thieving, racketeering ‘ponzi-scheme’ operating “pedarast”, pedophiles in their proper     place.
                Ciao!

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By Jim H., May 1, 2007 at 7:06 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

David; You say: 
“You are a—-creation of—-God—-the—- Creator—-.(?)
I say: Who, or what created your “Creator”?  And, who, or what created that which, created the who, or what, that created ‘YOUR’ “CREATOR”? Or; what, created the creator, that created the creator, that created the creator, that created the creator, that created ‘YOUR’ “CREATOR”?
If you accept what is taught by the criminal charlatan purveyors of that “Godism” you believe in, you therefore believe that your make-believe “God” “ALWAYS WAS”! Or, WAS “WITHOUT A BEGINNING”? which in fact, is a valid description of the “ORIGIN OF NATURE”!  And, when a beginning cannot be determined, or found, a ‘so called’ “Creator” is a superflous absurdity!  For simple minded people to better comprehend this seeming dichotomy, I suggest you, and they ‘stare at’, and concentrate on a ‘circle’, and, point to a begining! or, a ‘creation’  point!  Then, when you ‘give up’, read this:
THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
  Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground
  Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end
Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence
Jim H. 8/29/06

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By Akira_Maritias, May 1, 2007 at 6:02 pm Link to this comment

I’ve just a few things to say, and do note that I don’t intend to sit here and be ‘love bombed’ or just plain out ‘bombed’ by Jesus lovers. However, I do intend to put my two cents in for this discussion, if only briefly.

First:

When a religious person comes here and reads this, and then proceeds to defend this article, it confuses me a little. This article quite literally shows how the head honchos of faith use deception to reel people in until they believe one hundred percent and are driven into the cult (come forth, ye lamb!). Yet, the religious step forth and state that it is ridiculous to say something like that…it sounds like pure denial to me.

Second:

This loving and just God that is shoved in my face frequently is getting on my nerves. He loves me, but since I do not worship him nor see him as real, he will burn me in hell. Hence, he sounds like some abusive man caught on a COPS episode being pulled from his trailer. He made us in his image, yet grows angry with everything that we do that his crop dislikes. By ‘his crop’, I mean the loyal faithies that would do anything to be in church all the time and never see their families again. I’ve heard of people saying that God sent Cho to kill those VT students. Lovely. I’ve heard that God let the terrorists hit America because of feminism and pagans. So loving. I ask: why is it that this kind God is so cruel? I did not know that God also had to be ‘cruel to be kind’.

Third: How strong is someone’s faith to grow outraged at the very mention of Atheism? I frequently encounter people who hate me just because I am Atheist. The feeling is often not mutual; I usually do not pass judgment until the person wrongs me, which they inevitably do. Yet, the highest tiers of religious faith seem to be the most wobbly and afraid. Just look at the Pope. He’s supposedly the holiest man, and he still needs to pray and be protected by bullet proof glass. If God won’t stick up for someone that far up the chain, why would God bother with the commoners? Furthermore, you say that you are Atheist to a powerful religious kook and they will literally start foaming at the mouth whilst throwing holy water at you. How strong is their faith, when they treat Atheism like some powerful and contagious disease?

I ask these things because, quite frankly, I am beginning to see less and less sense in the religious argument, and more and more violence from said religious folks.

Two more questions, open to any religious people who might be willing to read the words of an obvious heathen:

1. How long have you been in your faith? By that, I mean to say that you were probably invited into your religion, which raises the real question: were you really so evil before you were accepted into that religion, and was your life truly so terrible?

2. If you will not read anything that conflicts with your faith…how can you possibly read any of the Atheist comments being left here? Or is this another one of those very broad, easily bent rules that you faithies tend to have?

To Annie:

Good luck. This looks like a fun place to be. Got a glimpse of your comments on the Atheist Manifesto page, and I’m glad you caught the humor in the quick truthdig translation of Hebrew.

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By Logician, May 1, 2007 at 5:01 pm Link to this comment

Re# by David from Florida on 4/30:

I had thought all the loonies had left so I had lost interest here, but, oh boy, this is just too good to pass up.

Can you really be that naive, David?  I mean REALLY?  Your polemic (look it up-start with dictionary.com) is so spectacularly idiotic I need point out only one thing:

“You are created in His image,...”  Your Creator….desires your companionship and affection that, despite your rebellion,...”

Sit down, David, turn off the radio tuned to the fat oxycontin-eating Rush, turn off the TV tuned to the pedarast priests, and listen to what you defecated on this site.  You just stated we are created in your idea of god’s image and we are rebellious.  The logical inconsistency of your two statements is prima-facie evidence (again, look it up) of the astounding delusion of god-belief.

Once again, in small words: IF we are in GOD’S image and we are bad, HE made us that way.  Do you have any idea how astoundingly stupid that sounds?  “I will make a creature just like me.  I will make him so he rebels and then I will condemn him to eternal suffering for rebelling.” 

And you wonder why people call believers f**king idiots who need to be sterilized?

Oh, and by the way, cretinous one, I feel quite good about who I am knowing I have but one chance at life and that I didn’t screw it up by sticking my head up my anus and saying “I believe in Jesus!”

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By Annie Reitano, May 1, 2007 at 11:26 am Link to this comment

“Of course, that is entirely the wrong way to go about obtaining such a result and the fact that people such as Annie Reitano are endlessly grizzling about what god hasn’t done for them today proves it to be a path of assured disappointment. That is, you can’t “own” god and you can’t get results from stamping your foot and demanding like a child.”

Douglas, then you need to quit trying since no gods exist.  Karma baby.  smile

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By Annie Reitano, May 1, 2007 at 11:23 am Link to this comment

“Additionally, Annie Reitano’s comment to me “...Then you’re an idiot as well as willfully ignorant regarding religion….I never addressed you….” and other comments makes me wonder if she really is a woman or rather perhaps a transvestite fag pretending to be one while he(she) pursues his(her) agenda of seducing the more unsophisticated reader here away from the concept of truth towards his(her) personal bias and a consequent downward path.”

That’s it! You’re a genius!! And it’s about as true as this Karma crap you’re trying to pull which is not in the bible and is as about as credible as The Flying Spaghetti Monster.  wink

Does my homosexuality offend you?  It’s karma, baby.  smile

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By Jim H., May 1, 2007 at 9:50 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Rev. David;
You better stop sniffing that stuff!  You’re getting worse!  I know you must find the real, “secular” ‘world’ with the likes of Bush and Chaney, and all those ‘Christian” perverts, and- “—-the whips and scorns of time—-” is not as beautiful, or happy as a ‘make-believe world’ that one can conjure up, conjecture or imagine, but, unless you want to continue using that mind altering drug, delusioal projection, or other artifice to avoid the cold hard facts of every day life here on earth- ‘This is it’!  And to keep proselytizing that asinine fanciful criminal ‘GODISM’ assertion, is both hurting your chances of ever regaining your sanity, and doing a grave injustice to all those little kids who will become the next victims of those Christian child molesters! 
ps: Do you really need that ‘mouthpiece’ to defend you ‘pose’?

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By Douglas Chalmers, May 1, 2007 at 6:38 am Link to this comment

#67393 by Harlon57 on 4/30 at 8:49 pm: “...Annie, the truth is: You didn’t exist before you were born. You won’t exist after you die. Make as much of this life as you can, it’s all you have…..”

This is an interesting concept and, although simple, does a lot towards what Harlon57 has elucidated as his own version of the “golden rule”:-
“If one accepts that this life is the only existence they will have, then all morality falls into place.
You cannot harm another because it may influence your only existence….”

That is to say that one can view human life as precious whether one believes in some kind of afterlife or re-incarnation or not. His view also embraces the essence of the Eastern concept of Karma, itself the age-old origin of all versions of the golden rule and its intended consequences as positive karma or as negative karma if disregarded.

As karma is the great law of the Universe, it cannot be escaped whether you want to believe in it or not. And any misapplication of it by wrong teaching will inevitably bring its own consequences. Only those who believe in re-incarnation, though, follow that through to an end result in another life.

Those who only see an afterlife, like most Christians, Jews and Moslems, are constrained to think of going “up” into some imaginary heaven or “down” into some imaginary hell. Unfortunately, the more they seem to be sure of what those places are, the more they fall into the very human trap of demanding that all be as they wish it to be - and solely in accordance with their fantasies or imaginings.

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By Douglas Chalmers, May 1, 2007 at 6:19 am Link to this comment

#67433 by Annie Reitano on 5/01 at 4:50 am: “...how many gods there are in this world and how many people feel that THEIR god is the one TRUE god?  It may startle you.  But each of them feel just as strongly as the Christians that their God is the one that’s going to save us….”

Well, as the old saying stated “Jesus saves, Moses invests .....and the Bhagwan spends!”. Certainly, everybody has a “vested interest” then in being “saved” or, to put it yet another way, they want to feel assured that they will get the best return for the time and effort they have put into worshipping their god.

Of course, that is entirely the wrong way to go about obtaining such a result and the fact that people such as Annie Reitano are endlessly grizzling about what god hasn’t done for them today proves it to be a path of assured disappointment. That is, you can’t “own” god and you can’t get results from stamping your foot and demanding like a child.

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By Douglas Chalmers, May 1, 2007 at 6:09 am Link to this comment

#67386 by Marina on 4/30 at 8:10 pm: “...You mentioned, the smilies: I feel they are passive-aggressive. The people who use them take personal jabs and then stick a smilie face next to it…”.

I noticed that mostly people are not using smileys. Frankly, I think that is because they can’t here on this blog which doesn’t have any WP functions except for the simple “preview” function.

That then means that either the moderator is adding them (I know a guy who runs a media blog and he does the same) or Annie Reitano has access to the administrator or his/her password. Perhaps she even works at TruthDig???

Additionally, Annie Reitano’s comment to me “...Then you’re an idiot as well as willfully ignorant regarding religion….I never addressed you….” and other comments makes me wonder if she really is a woman or rather perhaps a transvestite fag pretending to be one while he(she) pursues his(her) agenda of seducing the more unsophisticated reader here away from the concept of truth towards his(her) personal bias and a consequent downward path.

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By Annie Reitano, May 1, 2007 at 5:50 am Link to this comment

#67385 by David from Florida on 4/30 at 8:08 pm


Duped!  So, you’re saying that Jesus is the REAL god and we should all feel good that he left us here like children in a nursery, for 2000 years without making a peep and keeping promises that he suspposedly kept.  No.  To be honest, your first analogy makes more sense and is far more likely.

Do you know how many gods there are in this world and how many people feel that THEIR god is the one TRUE god?  It may startle you.  But each of them feel just as strongly as the Christians that their God is the one that’s going to save us.

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By Harlon57, April 30, 2007 at 11:07 pm Link to this comment

If one accepts that this life is the only existence they will have, then all morality falls into place.

You cannot harm another because it may influence your only existence.

Harming another will taint this existence.

That covers both your personal selfishness and altruism.

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By Annie Reitano, April 30, 2007 at 11:00 pm Link to this comment

#67393 by Harlon57 on 4/30 at 8:49 pm
(11 comments total)

Yes, Harlon.  You and I know that and accept it.  The faithful here cannot accept that truth.  And I believe it is that very truth that rips at them.  They see it as stealing their hope.  I see it as freedom.

That’s why http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com should be read by all.  Jesus either didn’t exist, or he was a liar.  Otherwise, people would be growing limbs back and paralytics would rise and walk—yet they don’t.  The best thing to do with this life, is to enlighten people to the lies of all three Abrahamic religions so that future generations can learn from science and people won’t have their limbs blown off in the name of some megalomaniacs’ extended versions of themselves. i.e gods

Jesus offers no advice for disarmament or how to achieve peaceful coexistence. Instead, throughout history one can find a plethora of examples of the Church using Biblical verses to justify wars, inquisitions, and violence against man. Anyone who comes with the intent of a “sword” instead of peace can hardly give an example of living peacefully on Earth. Jesus tells us not to feel troubled and that war must occur. Belief in these words virtually allow wars to occur. Although many extremists, racist groups, and terrorists may admire Jesus for his call for armament, the majority of people do not realize the influence that Jesus’ words have on believers who accept violence after having studied the Bible. Jesus does not deserve the title of Prince of Peace* or our admiration for his war-like views.
During his “trial,” Jesus explained to Pilate that if his kingdom came from this world, his servants (followers) would fight to prevent him from being delivered to the Jews:

If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews.-John 18:36

Although an all-powerful God could stop violence of man against man, Jesus accepted the concept of war with these admissions:

And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom
-Matthew. 24:6-7 [also Mark 13:7-8]

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By Harlon57, April 30, 2007 at 9:49 pm Link to this comment

Annie, the truth is:

You didn’t exist before you were born.

You won’t exist after you die.

Make as much of this life as you can, it’s all you have.

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