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Jesus ‘Love-Bombs’ You

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Posted on Apr 23, 2007
baptism
AP Photo / Rick Bowmer

By Chris Hedges

There is a false, but effective, fiction that one has to be born again to be a Christian.  The Christian right refuses to acknowledge the worth of anyone’s religious experience unless—in the words of the tired and opaque cliché—one has accepted “Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior.”

The meltdown, often skillfully manipulated by preachers and teams of evangelists, is one of the most pernicious tools of the movement.  Through conversion one surrenders to a higher authority.  And the higher authority, rather than God, is the preacher who steps in to take over your life.  Being born again, and the process it entails, is more often about submission and the surrender of moral responsibility than genuine belief.

I attended a five-day seminar at Coral Ridge in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., where I was taught, often by D. James Kennedy, the techniques of conversion. The callousness of these techniques—targeting the vulnerable, building false friendships with the lonely or troubled, promising to relieve people of the most fundamental dreads of human existence from the fear of mortality to the numbing pain of grief—gave to the process an awful cruelty and dishonesty. I attended the seminar as part of the research for my book “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America.” Kennedy openly called converts “recruits” and spoke about them joining a new political force sweeping across the country to reshape and reform America into a Christian state.

“I would always go in first, introduce myself, Jim Kennedy,” he told us. “I’m checking the lay of the land and I will look around the living room and see if there’s something there that I can comment about. Frequently, there will be a large picture somewhere and where did they put it, this picture ... why would they put it over the fireplace? Significant.”

“In Fort Lauderdale you don’t find too many fireplaces,” he added, smiling, “but there’s some kind of central focus. Maybe ... golf trophies ... I’m over here looking at these golf trophies ... painting ... I say… beautiful painting, did you paint that? The first rule about looking at trophies, don’t touch them ... did you win all those trophies? So we have a little conversation about golf, but I know enough about golf to have this conversation ... now what have I done? I’m making a friend.”

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“Compliment them on whatever you can,” Kennedy said, “discuss what they do, you’re going to find out what are their hobbies, maybe right there in the living room. Then you’re going to ask them about what they do, where they’re from, how long they’ve been there ... something to discuss with them ... in doing this, you have made a friend.”

We are told to “emphasize the positive” and “identify with your prospect.”  We are encouraged in the green “Evangelism Explosion” instruction manual to use sentences such as “It is wonderful to know when I lay my head on my pillow tonight that if I do not awaken in bed in the morning, I will awaken in paradise with God.”  We are told to paint graphic pictures of personal tragedy that God has helped solve, such as: “I had a Christian son killed in Vietnam, yet my heart is filled with peace because I know he has eternal life.  Even though he was killed by an enemy mortar, he has a home now in heaven, and one day we’ll be reunited there.”  We are instructed to pepper our testimonies with words like love, peace, faithfulness, forgiveness, hope, purpose and obedience and remember to talk about how we have found, in our own conversion, “courage in the face of death.” 

Kennedy warns us not to carry a large Bible, but to keep a small one hidden in our pocket, saying “don’t show your gun until you’re ready to shoot it.”

The conversion, at first, is euphoric. It is about new, loving friends, about the conquering of human anxieties, fears and addictions, about attainment through God of wealth, power, success and happiness. For those who have known personal and economic despair, it feels like a new life, a new beginning. The new church friends repeatedly call them, invite them to dinner, listen to their troubles and answer their questions. Kennedy told us that we must keep in touch in the days after conversion. He encouraged us to keep detailed files on those we proselytize. We must be sure the converts are never left standing alone at church. We must care when no one else seems to care. The converts are assigned a “discipler” or prayer partner, a new friend, who is wiser than they are in the ways of the Lord and able to instruct them in their new life.

The intense interest by a group of three or four evangelists in a potential convert, an essential part of the conversion process, the flattery and feigned affection, the rapt attention to those being recruited and the flurry of “sincere” compliments are a form of “love bombing.” It is the same technique employed by most cults, such as the Unification Church or “Moonies,” to attract prospects. It was a well-developed tactic of the Russian and Chinese communist parties, which share many of the communal and repressive characteristics of the Christian right.

“Love bombing is a coordinated effort, usually under the direction of leadership, that involves long-term members flooding recruits and newer members with flattery, verbal seduction, affectionate but usually nonsexual touching, and lots of attention to their every remark,” the psychiatrist Margaret Thaler Singer wrote. “Love bombing—or the offer of instant companionship—is a deceptive ploy accounting for many successful recruitment drives.”

The convert is gradually drawn into a host of church activities by his or her new friends, leaving little time for outside socializing. But the warmth soon brings with it new rules. When you violate the rules, you sin, you flirt with rebellion, with becoming a “backslider,” someone who was converted but has fallen and is once again on the wrong side of God. And as the new converts are increasingly invested in the church community, as they cut ties with their old community, it is harder to dismiss the mounting demands of the “discipler” and church leaders. The only proper relationship is submission to those above you, the abandonment of critical thought and the mouthing of thought-terminating clichés that are morally charged. “Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior” or “the wages of sin are death” is used to end all discussion.

Rules are incorporated slowly and deliberately into the convert’s belief system. These include blind obedience to church leaders, the teaching of an exclusive, spiritual elitism that demonizes all other ways of being and believing, and a persecution complex that keeps followers mobilized and distrustful of outsiders. The result is the destruction of old communities, old friendships and the independent ability to make moral choices. Believers are soon encased in the church community. They are taught to emphasize personal experience rather than reasoning, and to reject the reality-based world. For those who defy the system, who walk away, there is a collective banishment.

There is a gradual establishment of new standards for every aspect of life. Those who choose spouses must choose Christian spouses. Families and friends are divided into groups of “saved” and “unsaved.” The movement, while it purports to be about families, is the great divider of families, friends and communities. It competes with the family and those outside its structure for loyalty. It seeks to place itself above the family, either drawing all family members into its embrace or pushing those who resist aside. There were frequent prayers during the seminar I attended for relatives who were “unsaved,” those who remained beyond the control of the movement. Many of these prayers, including one by a grandmother for her unsaved grandchildren, were filled with tears and wrenching pain over the damnation of those they loved.

The new ideology gives the believers a sense of purpose, feelings of superiority and a way to justify and sanctify their hatreds. For many, the rewards of cleaning up their lives, of repairing their damaged self-esteem, of joining an elite and blessed group are worth the cost of submission. They know how to define themselves. They do not have to make moral choice. It is made for them. They submerge their individual personas into the single persona of the Christian crowd. Their hope lies not in the real world, but in this new world of magic and miracles. For most, the conformity, the flight away from themselves, the dismissal of facts and logic, the destruction of personal autonomy, even with its latent totalitarianism, is a welcome and joyous relief. The flight into the arms of the religious right, into blind acceptance of a holy cause, compensates for the convert’s despair and lack of faith in himself or herself. And the more corrupted and soiled the converts feel, the more profound their despair, the more militant they become, shouting, organizing and agitating to create a pure and sanctified Christian nation, a purity they believe will offset their own feelings of shame and guilt. Many want to be deceived and directed. It makes life easier to bear.

Freedom from fear, especially the fear of death, is what is being sold. It is a lie, as everyone has to know on some level, even while they write and rewrite their testimonies to conform to the instructors’ demands. But admitting this in front of other believers is impossible. Such an admission would be interpreted as a lack of faith. And this too is part of the process, for it fosters a dread of being found out, a morbid guilt that we are not as good or as Christian as those around us. This dread does not go away with conversion or blind obedience or submission. This unachievable ideal forces the convert to repress and lose touch with the uncertainties, ambiguities and contradictions that make up human existence.

We were instructed to inform potential converts that Jesus came to Earth and died “to pay the penalty for our sins and to purchase a place in heaven for us” and that “to receive eternal life you must transfer your trust from yourself to Jesus Christ alone for eternal life.”  We were told to ask the convert if he or she is willing “to turn from what you have been doing that is not pleasing to Him and follow Him as He reveals His will to you in His Word.” If the covert agrees to accept a new way of life we are to bow our heads and pray, with the convert repeating each line after us.

“Lord Jesus, I want You to come in and take over my life right now. I am a sinner. I have been trusting in myself and my own good works. But now I place my trust in You. I accept You as my own personal Savior. I believe you died for me. I receive You as Lord and Master of my life. Help me to turn from my sins and to follow You. I accept the free gift of eternal life. I am not worthy of it, but I thank You for it. Amen.”

And when it is over the new believers are told “Welcome to the family of God.” They are told to read a chapter a day in the Gospel of John and that they will be visited again in a week to talk about the Bible. They are encouraged to pray, because God “promised to hear and answer our prayers.” They are told to find “a good Bible-believing church and become a part of it.” They are told to join a Christian fellowship group. They are told to witness to those in their family. With this, the process of deconstructing an individual and building a submissive follower, one who no longer has any allegiance to the values of the open society, begins.

Chris Hedges, who graduated from seminary at Harvard Divinity School, is the author of “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America.”  He is a senior fellow at The Nation Institute and a Lannan Literary Fellow.

On May 22, Chris Hedges and Sam Harris will debate “Religion, Politics and the End of the World.” Click here for details and tickets.


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Annie Reitano's avatar

By Annie Reitano, May 14, 2007 at 6:05 am Link to this comment

#69782 by Observer on 5/13 at 7:19 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

“God wants a relationship with man.
You are trying to tell me there is not God. But I cannot go there because…..I walk with God. I talk with God.”

I am sorry but that’s just your theory.  It doesn’t wash with me, Observer.  Because you are trying to say there IS a god when there is no evidence of this.  And once again, I ask you: If he is so keen on a “relationship” with you, why did he send agents to do it?  i.e secretaries.  That’s pretty impersonal.

I will answer a couple of your questions to me now—-then it’s off to work.  I am not a vengeful person.  I DO hate religion, though as it kills people.  I am surprised you’re apparently numb to this.

And why shouldn’t I own a bible?  People give them out on the streets in Vegas.  Do you think they ask the person they’re giving them to if they’re atheists or not, first?  Is the Bible the ONLY book YOU own?  Bottom line, I was once a Christian and a missionary.  I still own my Bible and a Qur’an and I have every right to do that.  It keeps me on my toes with the constant contradictions that, like you, I used to ignore because “I was special and had a relationship with God who loved me above all of the starving people in Africa and I was blessed.”  I was—like you again—the height of arrogance.  But I recognised it and fixed it.

I suggest you do the same.  I hope you don’t feel I am intrusive to say so.  After all, you DID assume I need professional help without even knowing me.  It’s interesting that you and some of the other Christians would want to deny me my Bible, though.  And it’s extremely revealing!  wink *Oh no!  This woman has a Bible and can USE it!*  lol

Those are true, Christian colours bleeding right through your pretentious words of “righteous wisdom”—which ring more like insane rumblings to me now.

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By Harlon57, May 13, 2007 at 10:31 pm Link to this comment

Observer,

How do you account for the fact that biblical accounts are in many ways preceded by pagan myth?

Meaning, your bible is nothing more than a later repetition of earlier pagan myth.

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By Harlon57, May 13, 2007 at 10:28 pm Link to this comment

Observer,

You have organized your life around something less sound than a theory supported with facts.

Nothing more than than the delusion of an active mind.

No facts will deter you. Nothing precise will do.

Only what flitters through your mind, like a dream.

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By Observer, May 13, 2007 at 8:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: Harlon57

Dear Harlon
It was very nice of you to type so much in your explanation. However, the last statement says it all…....“theory”. That kind of washes the whole thing down the toilet for me. 

You cannot explain “theory” to a person who walks in “truth”. They will never listen to you. It doesn’t make sense at all to us. I’m not kidding. It’s like pretending to us. I will say that you have the good will to try to be kind and considerate, at least most of the time. We all get a little flustered when others don’t see things our way. 

I am not just one person who has been involved with God. It has been happening all over the world since the beginning of time. God wants a relationship with man.
You are trying to tell me there is not God. But I cannot go there because…..I walk with God. I talk with God. I am blessed by God. 

God is real to me, my Christian friends and millions of people all over the world. My experiences are real to me. Of course they are not real to you. You weren’t there when I developed my walk with Jesus. It’s a personal experience. You’re trying to tell me that the prayers I have prayed and that have been answered are not real. These are personal experiences. What you are saying is the pain I was cured of, the financial blessings I prayed for, the people I prayed for their salvation, and many other miracles are not real. Come on, now really?
That is like me trying to tell you that your real mother really didn’t really give birth to you.
Thanks for the trouble you went to to organize your thoughts. Theory isn’t what I base my life on though. It is facts from God and my personal relationship with Christ.
Blessings.

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By Observer, May 13, 2007 at 8:19 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: Harlon57

It was very nice of you to type so much in your explanation. However, the last statement says it all…....“theory”. That kind of washes the whole thing down the toilet for me. 

You cannot explain “theory” to a person who walks in “truth”. They will never listen to you. It doesn’t make sense at all to us. I’m not kidding. It’s like pretending to us. I will say that you have the good will to try to be kind and considerate, at least most of the time. We all get a little flustered when others don’t see things our way. 

I am not just one person who has been involved with God. It has been happening all over the world since the beginning of time. God wants a relationship with man.
You are trying to tell me there is not God. But I cannot go there because…..I walk with God. I talk with God. I am blessed by God. 

God is real to me, my Christian friends and millions of people all over the world. My experiences are real to me. Of course they are not real to you. You weren’t there when I developed my walk with Jesus. It’s a personal experience. You’re trying to tell me that the prayers I have prayed and that have been answered are not real. These are personal experiences. What you are saying is the pain I was cured of, the financial blessings I prayed for, the people I prayed for their salvation, and many other miracles are not real. Come on, now really?
That is like me trying to tell you that your real mother really didn’t really give birth to you.
Thanks for the trouble you went to to organize your thoughts. Theory isn’t what I base my life on though. It is facts from God and my personal relationship with Christ.
Blessings.

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By Observer, May 13, 2007 at 7:49 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: Annie

Annie:
You need to go back through the information on this site reread it and learn what has been said. You are obviously very confused about all information posted. You cannot show yourself “the way”. Why in the world do you think you can show anyone the way to anywhere. Oh, wait….....maybe the way to hell… because that is the road you are traveling on at this time. I’m not trying to be funny here. Just truthful.
Again, like I said before I don’t discuss my Father’s words with anyone like you. You are not open to truth. You are a closed door for now. You are an expert at nothing to do with God. Why do you even own a Bible? If your life is so right why are you concerned about talking about God at all? There is too much protesting coming from you about this to be normal. I’m sure other atheists are amazed you keep bringing God’s word into the picture. In fact if I remember someone mentioned that to you awhile back. You should have taken a hint from that email. It would have been to your advantage to do so. But here you are still going at it with the Bible. Are you really an atheist or are you something else? I really do wonder.
Get counseling for goodness sake. Rage eats people like a cancer. It is so unhealthy and destructive to you as an individual. If you feel what Christians stand for is not real to you and you want no part of it, then go away and don’t talk to us. We will be better off and so will you. It is not up to you to police the world. This is a free country remember. Every religion is accepted to be taught or expressed in our country. Again you are not the police….so put down the weapon (the Bible you have) and step away from the computer. I’m starting to think you are very scared of Christians altogether. You must be very doubtful about what you believe, otherwise we would not be a threat to you at all. I’m not scared of you but I am concerned that your hatred of Christians could fuel more hatred from other angry people. The picture you have painted for me - via your emails - is a screaming woman with a Bible in her hand - gritting her teeth - yelling bad things about Jesus and His Father’s Word. Sorry, chickadee, but you are the queen of personal attacks upon others. I’m not going to respond to you any longer. You cannot have a conversation with a Christian. You can only accuse, distort, rearrange truth, and avoid the issue at hand. Goodbye

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By Harlon57, May 13, 2007 at 5:40 pm Link to this comment

Annie,

A little bit of history to shine light on the subject never hurts.

One only needs to look, to see.

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Annie Reitano's avatar

By Annie Reitano, May 13, 2007 at 5:12 pm Link to this comment

smile  Thank you.

I suspect, that like Observer, people aren’t really interested in reading their OWN unholy book, much less look into what you’ve just stated so intelligently.

It took a Rabbi turned atheist to teach me about all of that, Harlon57.  And it was a long haul that I willed myself to take.

Thank you.

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By Harlon57, May 13, 2007 at 3:45 pm Link to this comment

And lastly Faithful:

Many are familiar with Occam’s Razor, which states that, all things being equal, one should not seek complex explanations when more simple ones are available. No one disputes that these other stories predate the Judeo-Christian Bible, so we really only have two options:

  1. The religious explanation is that while the other stories were very much the same as those in the Bible, they are all false. But when they occur in the Bible (despite it being much the same content), this time the stories are true. One explanation of the resemblances to the earlier myths is that Satan created them to lead people astray from the true Messiah that would come much later. So essentially, an ultra-powerful and evil being (Created by God) influenced humanity to create deceptive stories — thousands of years before the real version — so that people wouldn’t believe the real thing when they saw it.
  2. The alternative explanation is that the nature of storytelling during the period was such that central themes propagated through time. This combined with the natural tendency to have certain repeating elements in human stories, and the fact that the Bible stories came after the other ones, explains the similarities to previous myths. And since the stories of worldwide floods, virgin births, and people rising from the dead that the Bible is based on were false to begin with (which everyone agrees on) — they are also false in the Bible. In short, the Bible is simply another iteration of the same themes that came long before it.

Which of these two explanations makes more sense to you?

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By Harlon57, May 13, 2007 at 3:42 pm Link to this comment

Faithful, check this out:

The Jesus Story Is An Obvious Rehashing Of Numerous Previous Characters

Perhaps even more compelling is the story of Christ himself. As it turns out it’s not even remotely original. It is instead nothing more than a collection of bits and pieces from dozens of other stories that came long before. Here are some examples.

  1. Asklepios healed the sick, raised the dead, and was known as the savior and redeemer.
  2. Hercules was born of a divine father and mortal mother and was known as the savior of the world. Prophets foretold his birth and claimed he would be a king, which started a search by a leader who wanted to kill him. He walked on water and told his mother, “Don’t cry, I’m going to heaven.” when he died. As he passed he said, “It is finished.“
  3. Dionysus was literally the “Son of God”, was born of a virgin mother, and was commonly depicted riding a donkey. He healed the sick and turned water to wine. He was killed but was resurrected and became immortal. His greatest accomplishment was his own death, which delivers humanity itself.
  4. Osiris did the same things. He was born of a virgin, was considered the first true king of the people, and when he died he rose from the grave and went to heaven.
  5. Osiris’s son, Horus, was known as the “light of the world”, “The good shepherd”, and “the lamb”. He was also referred to as, “The way, the truth, and the life.” His symbol was a cross.
  6. Mithra was born on the 25th of December, his birth was witnessed by local shepherds who brought him gifts, had 12 disciples, and when he was done on earth he had a final meal before going up to heaven. On judgment day he’ll return to pass judgment on the living and the dead. The good will go to heaven, and the evil will die in a giant fire. His holiday is on Sunday (he’s the Sun God). His followers called themselves “brothers”, and their leaders “fathers”. They had baptism and a meal ritual where symbolic flesh and blood were eaten. Heaven was in the sky, and hell was below with demons and sinners.
  7. Krishna had a miraculous conception that wise men were able to come to because they were guided by a star. After he was born an area ruler tried to have him found and killed. His parents were warned by a divine messenger, however, and they escaped and was met by shepherds. The boy grew up to be the mediator between God and man.
  8. Buddha’s mother was told by an angel that she’d give birth to a holy child destined to be a savior. As a child he teaches the priests in his temple about religion while his parents look for him. He starts his religious career at roughly 30 years of age and has 12 disciples. One of the disciples is his favorite, and another is a traitor. He and his disciples abstain from wealth and travel around speaking in parables and metaphors. He called himself “the son of man” and was referred to as, “prophet”, “master”, and “Lord”. He healed the sick, cured the blind and deaf, and he walked on water. One of his disciples tried to walk on water as well but sunk because his faith wasn’t strong enough.
  9. Apollonius of Tyana performed countless miracles (healing sick and crippled, restored sight, casted out demons, etc.) His birth was of a virgin, foretold by an angel. He knew scripture really well as a child. He was crucified, rose from the dead and appeared to his disciples to prove his power before going to heaven to sit at the right hand of the father. He was known as, “The Son of God”.

The problem, of course, is that these previous narratives existed hundreds to thousands of years before Jesus did. Jesus is a copy of copy.

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By Harlon57, May 13, 2007 at 3:36 pm Link to this comment

Faithful, please consider the Epic Of Gilgamesh vs the story of Noah and his arc. Gilgamesh was from Babylon hundreds of years before the bible was written:

Here are a number of elements that both Gilgamesh and the flood story in Genesis share:

  1. God decided to send a worldwide flood. This would drown men, women, children, babies and infants, as well as eliminate all of the land animals and birds.
  2. God knew of one righteous man, Ut-Napishtim or Noah.
  3. God ordered the hero to build a multi-story wooden ark (called a chest or box in the original Hebrew), and the hero initially complained about the assignment to build the boat.
  4. The arc would have many compartments, a single door, be sealed with pitch and would house one of every animal species.
  5. A great rain covered the land with water.
  6. The arc landed on a mountain in the Middle East.
  7. The first two birds returned to the ark. The third bird apparently found dry land because it did not return.
  8. The hero and his family left the ark, ritually killed an animal, offered it as a sacrifice.
  9. The Babylonian gods seemed genuinely sorry for the genocide that they had created. The God of Noah appears to have regretted his actions as well, because he promised never to do it again.

Keep in mind the level of detail in these similarities. It’s not a matter of just a flood, but specific details: three birds sent out, resisting the call to build the arc, and a single man being chosen by God to build the arc.

Then consider that the first story (Gilgamesh) came from Babylon — hundreds of years before the Bible was even written. Do you honestly think, based on the similarities above, that those who wrote the Genesis story had not heard the Gilgamesh story?

And if they had heard it, and they were simply rehashing an old, very popular tale, what does that say about the Bible?

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Annie Reitano's avatar

By Annie Reitano, May 13, 2007 at 2:33 pm Link to this comment

#69627 by Observer on 5/12 at 7:03 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

“Annie, you have no idea what the word says. Stop telling people you do it is embarrassing to yourself and ridiculous that you even mention the Bible or for that fact even own one right now.”

Yes, I am angry over you religious zealots.  Very pissed off everytime I hear of someone dying for your petty Jihad. You are complacent to it; you even assume it’s the right thing to do.  Even though I am a naturally kind person; I cannot be apathetic without a true cause the way you can.  And all your vitriolic statements can’t who I am away. 
So, I am going to assume that your not wanting to debate the Bible with me is your fear.  As well you should be afraid.  You wouldn’t want to pop that ever delusional and illusive bubble that is just above your head and I think you know I can do that.  You say I don’t know the Bible—TRY ME.  I am dying for it. 
And please, don’t pretend it’s because of your saviour.  He came to bring the “sword”—remember?  So let’s have it.
Start by answering my question.  Then we can show Lordariael just what you’re made of and what you stand for.

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By Annie Reitano, May 13, 2007 at 2:22 pm Link to this comment

#69675 by Observer on 5/13 at 6:51 am
(Unregistered commenter)
You said to lordirael the following:

“Watching closely at what they stand for and what they will do for other people is a good way to learn about them and their ideas and beliefs.” 


And yet you’ve come here and ridiculed everyone without knowing us as personally as you think you know this god of yours who gives NO evidence of himself.  At least my typing this is evidence of a human being—very much alive and very onto your altar call.  So, let’s take a look at what you stand for be reviewing your very nasty and intolerant little story about fellow human beings you don’t know:

#69462 by Observer on 5/11 at 5:55 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

“The story of Godlessness and the three naive atheists

Once upon a time there were three godless people. Jip, Fannie and Heinz57. The all decided they did not believe in God for various reasons. They spent most of their life on the internet and thought they knew everything about everything amongst each other.
They continually argued back and forth, to and fro, until their life became nothing but one big blur. You see Jip was the black sheep because he was mouthy and appeared to be on drugs. Fannie was continually arguing and never had anything to say but criticism of others. Heinz57 was the most logical but still had a sense of confusion about what he was thinking.
Anyway, lets get to the real story:
They all went for a walk in the woods. They came upon a shack that looked abandoned. They looked in the windowand saw three bowls of lies sitting on the dining room table. They opened the door and all three sat down and consumed these bowls. Next, after such a long journey, they each sat in a rocking chair to relax. The rocking motion gave them such motion sickness they went in search of three beds. They found these beds upstairs and fell asleep in them. While they were asleep the owner of the house came home. The owner was Satan himself. He saw that the three bowls of lies were consumed and that the chairs had been sat in. He went upstairs and saw them sleeping. Knowing that the bowls of lies were also tainted with…................deceit and pride…... he just waited and waited and waited…. He stayed right beside each one of them as they slept. 
The sad part of the story is none of these three have ever risen from the deep sleep the bowl of lies put them into. Satan is waiting around to see if they ever realize what they have swallowed is a poison to their very soul.
There is no end yet…....it’s still be written.”

Now, let me ask you, Observer.  What have you done for me lately?  Nothing but spew sarcastic hatred.  When was the last time you saw God and he spoke to you?  Never.  You’re locked in your own hate and delusions because of religion.  You don’t want to be righteous—you just want to be right.  Your church means nothing.  There are over 20,000 denominations of that one religion because none of you can agree on any one thing.  It’s all about intolerance and your posts (sans the altar call to lordirael) show this.

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By Harlon57, May 13, 2007 at 1:15 pm Link to this comment

Observer, you say no one can argue against an experience someone thinks they had.

Your mind is an incredible simulation machine. Every night, you are transported, via dreams, to other places, you interact with people and things, you have ideas.  But no one would say those things actually happened to you. That would be ignorant.

Your argument from design is actually the argument from incredulity.  You don’t understand, so you assume a designer.

  A quick lesson on what we know about how life started on earth:

  The fundamental properties that must lie at the heart of any good theory of the origin of life on any planet, is notably the idea of self-replicating genetic entities.

  We do not know what chemical raw materials were abundant on earth before the coming of life, but among the plausible possibilities are water, carbon dioxide, methane, and ammonia: all simple compounds known to be present on at least some of the other planets in our solar system. Chemists have tried to imitate the chemical conditions of the young earth. They have put these simple substances in a flask and supplied a source of energy such as ultraviolet light or electric sparks—artificial simulation of primordial lightning.

  After a few weeks of this, something interesting is usually found inside the flask: a weak brown soup containing a large number of molecules more complex than the ones originally put in.

  In particular, Amino Acids have been found—the building blocks of proteins, one of the two great classes of biological molecules. Before these experiments were done, naturally-occurring amino acids would have been thought of as diagnostic of the presence of life.

  More recently, laboratory simulations of the chemical conditions of earth before the coming of life have yielded organic substances called purines and pyrimidines.

  THESE ARE THE BUILDING BLOCKS OF THE GENETIC MOLECULE, DNA ITSELF.

  So you can see, we know what must have occurred to start the replicators on their way…

Here is an example of evolution in practice:

One of the neatest examples of this concerns the phenomenon known as mimicry. Some butterflies taste nasty. They are usually brightly and distinctively colored, and birds learn to avoid them by their ‘warning’ marks. Now other species of butterfly that do not taste nasty cash it. They mimic the nasty ones. They are born looking like them in color and shape (but not taste). They frequently fool human naturalists, and they also fool birds. A bird who has once tasted a genuinely nasty butterfly tends to avoid all butterflies that look the same. This includes the mimics, and so genes for mimicry are favored by natural selection. That is how mimicry evolves.

There are millions of fossils already collected showing mutation over time.

The facts found of evolution support the theory of evolution.

No bronze age god required.

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By Observer, May 13, 2007 at 7:51 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Greetings Lordadirael:

It is awesome that you are in search of the truth. I am personally happy for you.

Please understand that the man that believes he arrived on the planet by accident, instead of by design, will never know his purpose. Accident cannot reason or plan itself, therefore cannot create anything with a precise plan. He will always seek and never find, because he is seeking in the wrong place. 

If you want to know the purpose in your life - you must go to the Creator and find out. The designer of your body and soul.

e.g.
Let’s say you come across a piece of detailed electronic equipment that you do not know what its purpose is. You’ve never seen this type of technology before. Are you going to automatically assume it was something that was thrown together during an explosion, or other accidental circumstance? No way. It’s not even a natural thought that would occur within anyones mind - believer or non-believer.
Your first reaction is where did this come from? Who made it? Right? The human body is detailed to the max - much more than the electronics man has made. I hope this gives you a different perspective than you have had in the past.

It sounds to me like you were connected with a church that could not nurture you or explain the Bible to you. I am sorry you had that experience. But I am interested in this: did you ask questions to the pastor or just keep those inside of you? You should always ask the pastor to explain it to you. If he cannot answer you then .....run….. You really do need to refrain from attending denominational churches and focus on a church that focuses on reaching the world and truth. Seeking God is not joining some kind of club. It’s a personal experience.
I will give you a church website that is now offering worship via the web. It is an actual church that uses technology, art and many visuals to reach the world. It is headed by one of the world’s greatest teachers in my eyes. It is http://www.northlandchurch.net. The service times are listed on the website and it is a live service several times a day. This church is becoming a model in explaining truth to a confused and hurting world. Yes, I am personally inviting you to church. smile 
There are many false teachers in this world be careful. It is up to you to discern truth. I could say that you should not be on the site right now, but I won’t. The best way to learn is by observing others. Watching closely at what they stand for and what they will do for other people is a good way to learn about them and their ideas and beliefs.     
You stated something that speaks volumes about you. You said that you are not ready to let go of the “fact” that there has to be a purpose to all this. That is good….. because that is the way you were naturally wired from the beginning. You should listen to yourself when you have these feelings. The voice inside might not be just yours but the Lord himself.

Anyone can believe what they see, but it takes a man of great strength, faith and insight to trust the almighty God in heaven. It takes a wise man. However, these traits are given to the man seeking faith if he will just ask God to give them to him. Seek Jesus directly and you will find. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life, just as God’s word states.

Just a note about 2+2=5 in Harlon57 reply:

We are a family of 2 adults + 2 children who walk and answer to God. But hey, this one is even more interesting - God is 3 parts, Father, Spirit and Son. So my house is operating on a higher number than you can see with your eyes - therefore in our case it looks like this 2+2=7.
Please listen to other peoples testimonies about their walk with God. It is indisputable because it is a personal experience that you cannot deny. No one can argue about something that happened to you, right?

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By Harlon57, May 12, 2007 at 9:09 pm Link to this comment

lordadirael,

Welcome to our waste of time.

You mentioned “the truth is what is believed by a single individual, to that single individual.”

That sounds like a nice platitude, but doesn’t stand up to logic.

Suppose I tell you that 2+2=4. I believe that to be the truth. But not on faith. It can be easily proven using several methods.

Now let’s say that you say, no, 2+2=5. You believe it to be true for yourself. What proof can you provide beyond that you believe it?  When I prove you wrong, will you admit it, or ignore the truth?

If words matter, and for us to hold a discussion, we need to come to agreement on usage.  Truth must mean something.  If we agree that it means a verified or indisputable fact, then your truth statement is easily proven false.

If you wish to quibble, and make truth mean something elastic, then you are making meaningful debate impossible.

Those statements cannot be equally true, no matter how dearly we each wish to believe. 

I understand that you find comfort believing that there is more to life than evolution tells us. But that does not make it true, and the truth matters.

Consider the following statement:

You didn’t exist before you were born.
You were born, you live then you die.
Lastly, you don’t exist again, forever.

Many people find that to be a terrible concept.

But if it is ‘true’ then we must find a way to make this existence, our only existence, meaningful.

If it is not true, then we still need to find meaning.  That pursuit should make us wonder why people all over the globe, honoring different gods all search for meaning in their lives.

That search for meaning is independent of religion, and may in some small part be one of the reasons religion came to be.  Just part of uneducated people trying to make sense when there was no science or philosophy.

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By Annie Reitano, May 12, 2007 at 9:07 pm Link to this comment

#69631 by Lordadirael on 5/12 at 7:42 pm
(1 comments total)

“There is no proof anywhere to discount christians, or atheists, as none of us were there at the outset.”

Exactly what the atheist contends.  Not that gods are disproven but that they’re unproven—as indeed they are! And I would like to defend my right to MY TRUTH in my own way to a population of 91 percent of people whose “truth” is that I should give my heart to Jesus.  And that he is God and coming back to judge the living and the dead and blah blah blah.  This is crap doctrine for any society and all you need for evidence of that statement is to turn on the news.
My personal TRUTH is that gods are not proven and therefore I should have a right to say so.  And I have the right to come into a forum where discussion about “Jesus the big bomber” is being discussed and say my side of the truth….which is absolute since NO GOD HAS EVER BEEN PROVEN NOR IS THEIR ANY EVIDENCE OF SUCH A BEING. (for emphasis not shouting).  I have a right to disbelieve any such nonsense about any such thing without someone elses truth being shoved down my throat.  Just as one has the right to deny the Leprachaun.  The shame is that I am not afforded the right to argue about such a thing in public when the same derision is not placed on anyone who doesn’t believe that leprechauns exist.

And yes, I do believe that people can be changed by showing them the multitude of errors in the unholy books, yes I do.  I do indeed; because I am one of them.

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By Lordadirael, May 12, 2007 at 8:42 pm Link to this comment

I would like to thank all of you for getting me through what would have been a rather boring evening. Reading all the posts, arguments, name calling and the such has been quite entertaining. But as far as proof goes, I see lacking, due to the human factor.  Whatever I accept as truth, regardless of what you accept as truth, is truth to me.  That is why religious arguments can go on forever, as this thread has seemed to. I mean come on, do you honestly think that you will bring to an end an argument that has been thriving since the beginning of existance.  Albeit fun, it is nonetheless useless.  As for my personal beliefs, which i know will be asked by someone (but now that i say that will be told you do not care), i am agnostic.  Annie, i too spent most of my life in the ‘christian’ church only to find so many discrepencies, not only in the book itself, but in the doctrines taught from one denomination to the other.  i stepped away and decided to find my own way, and am, at the time of this writing, not sure what the truth is.  Im not quite ready to let go of the fact that all there has to be a purpose to all this, i cant believe existance is meaningless, that what we do here doesnt matter somewhere, to someone(thing). But as for the god of the christians..  i dont see them as right either.
once again, thank you, i have been educated, as well as amused.  the only thing i can say is this, the truth is what is believed by a single individual, to that single individual.  Even when i was heavy into the church i did not believe everything. There is no proof anywhere to discount christians, or atheists, as none of us were there at the outset.

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By Observer, May 12, 2007 at 8:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: Harlon57

What you are saying is often used by non-believers to try and make the believer feel inadequate about seeking a relationship with God.
Hey, if you love to be alone, so be it. However, there are many people who do not feel that way. You have the right to call it anything you want. You must not have a wife because if you do that would make you weak too. I mean you can do your own dishes, wash your own clothes and oh, but wait there is a couple of things you might not be able to achieve.
You will eventually find the battle you can’t win.
It may be a horrible event in your life. A disease,death, deformity, financially disaster, could be anything. God shows man who is in control eventually. Your not as tough as you think you are.
I love having a relationship with God. I don’t know how I ever lived without it before. What a pathetic joke my life was. Oh but not in the worlds eyes - it was good - but in my eyes- deep down inside- I knew I was missing something really really important.  I found it, I have it, accept it.

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By Observer, May 12, 2007 at 8:25 pm Link to this comment
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RE: Logician

You obviously are a person who likes to take things out of context then twist and deform them. A feature that comes from the Devil himself.
Infallible information was the subject: meaning “trustworthy”. Not off on one of your tangents to confuse the issue at hand. You people love to change the subject continually. 

Now you speak of my testimony like you have heard it already. You are jumping to conclusions. I’ve never given my testimony so how can you rate it? This very statement shows your lack of research of evidence before making decisions/conclusions. That does explain the reason you failed to understand the Bible. Maybe you see things that aren’t there at all and miss other details altogether. 

Let me give you a piece of advice - don’t butt in on someone else’s thread unless you know what you talking about.

I won’t waste my precious testimony on you. It would be poor stewardship of my time.

Enjoy your science fiction life.

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By Observer, May 12, 2007 at 8:03 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Annie:
Your violent side is showing. Please get help soon. It is not attractive at all. Your insight and intuition is failing you - big time…. I am a she not a he. I’m not going to argue over my heavenly fathers word. I’m not going to give you the pleasure of insulting the living word anymore than you have already. You use it to ridicule God and you have poked fun at the very Son He sent here to die for your sins. You have laughed at God and continue to use His words as a punching bag. Annie, you have no idea what the word says. Stop telling people you do it is embarrassing to yourself and ridiculous that you even mention the Bible or for that fact even own one right now. You are one really sick individual. It must be a nightmare to be you. Do you actually think I will have a continual non-productive discussion with a mean old woman who hates God? Your problem isn’t with me it’s with God Himself. You appear to be very wicked and cruel to the very core. Remember when you get really depressed or run out of prosac you’ll finally get so low you have nothing else to do but to call upon God for help. That is the way it works for rebellious hardened people. He is even there for people like you. He is not afraid to take you down either.

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By Annie Reitano, May 12, 2007 at 7:21 pm Link to this comment

I agree with you, Harlon.  But as long as I am going to be attacked by a faith-head who admits that he doesn’t even know me, yet has no problem with attacking my person, I am going to show him just what I am made of.  I am going to fuck him up with his own book.

All he has so far are, verses from the Bible, personal attacks that show his good “grace”, and tired out, rehearsed verbiage he learned from his pastor.  So, I am on it this time.  I doubt very much that he’ll be able to keep up with the shit I am going to throw at him.  And when I am done with him, if he still thinks that book is worth living his life around, then I will bow to you and concede that you were right—he has no mind nor sense of reason.

I have to believe that if I noticed problems with that book, and finally admitted it after 20 years, then someone else will, too.  I intend to show him the way.

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By Harlon57, May 12, 2007 at 6:23 pm Link to this comment

Annie, I’m beginning to think that there are no reasonable, thinking people on this board who believe in god. 
Makes sense.  Were they reasonable, thinking people, they would have found their own way out of the confusion of religion.

I don’t believe the faith-heads on this thread represent the kind of individuals with whom one could have an interesting exchange of ideas.

Jim H. a supposed non-believer is just as obstinate and rude. A complete embarrassment for our side.

This thread really yields no fruit.

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By Annie Reitano, May 12, 2007 at 5:37 pm Link to this comment

#69510 Observer

“You can live your life in denial. You can argue about who typed the wrong letter, word, or idea. But you cannot argue yourself into heaven. Not even in with proper grammar! And before David from Florida gets a chance to say this, I will….. in my best language just for you:
“you think ‘bout that one there good buddy “yee haw”! “

It appears you need that god so you can have your hell to put everyone in who doesn’t agree with your doctrine.  Yep, you’re definitely a Christian.  smile

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By Annie Reitano, May 12, 2007 at 5:33 pm Link to this comment

#69514 by Observer on 5/12 at 5:27 am
(Unregistered commenter)

“I don’t know you Annie personally.’

That’s the only statement you made, Observer, that is a fact.  The rest was one hell of an altar call, though.  I listened to that same rehearsed crap all of my life.

Let’s have a bible off.  You first.  Quote me something, and even though everyone here seems to be put off by my methods of using your own book against you, it is what I know I am good at—-punching holes in your theology and your ideas about the god that you made in your image. To wit! Punching holes in that Bible that is more full of holes than swiss cheese.  Tell me this: (changed my mind, I will go first) if God wants to have a personal relationship with me and you, why did he send Bronze-age agents (secretaries) to tell us about it?  I can’t think of one good reason for that very impersonal way of getting to know me PERSONALLY.  Especially in light of the fact that those books in the NT were written some 35-70 years after Jesus lived. Paul himself, who wrote most of the NT, never even KNEW Jesus.  Now that is FACT.  So, you give me your theory on the “personal God” issue.  And we’ll go from there.  Let’s do it.

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By Logician, May 12, 2007 at 4:55 pm Link to this comment

Re#69510 by Observer on 5/12:

Your ignorance of science is appalling, although expected in a believer.  If you are truly stupid enough to think natural laws are not infallible, jump out of a window10 stories high, with no machinery or parachute.  No snarking, do it.  If you don’t splatter on the ground I will personally convert on the spot.  The same for any ‘miracle’ in that book of filth you so lovingly talk about: the bible.

That’s one of the things that REALLY toasts my butt about you mouth-breathers: not only are you ignorant of any science, you are TOTALLY ignorant about that pornographic filth you follow.  I am a scientist who HAS researched the bible for over 42 years. 

I have read and researched the bible in English as well as the original languages BECAUSE I BELIEVED that my soul was that important.  I was not willing to take the words of adulterers or pederasts or other hypocrites.  I wanted to know FOR MYSELF.  Guess what I found?  NOTHING original in ANY of the books execpt the name of Jesus.  EVERYTHING about Jesus is a DIRECT COPY of earlier told tales.  EVERYTHING, do you understand?

And the copies weren’t even that good.  Nazareth DIDN’T EXIST at the time Jesus was supposed to have lived there!  There are SO MANY contradictions, factual errors, and just plain stupid sayings I HAD to get to the roots.  And yes, I HAVE talked and corresponded with theologians. When dealt with face-to-face, mana-a-mano, they admit:

The bible is not holy and it’s anything BUT perfect.  It’s just a book put together by some power mad pederasts intent on control. You’d be surprised at how many theologians DON’T believe the bible.  You know why? Because they KNOW the bible.  Try looking up Robert M. Price and have someone read the big words to you.  He’s a REAL theologian and his research will make your head spin like Linda Blair’s.  The truth always seems to do that to mouth-breathers.

And don’t give me that old “I’ll understand it when I accept it” sh*t. That’s the oldest, cheapest canard of every second rate spoon bender and mystic who ever fleeced a flock.  What you really mean is I’ll understand it when I stop thinking about it.  Because thinking is anathema to any religion, period.  That’s why so many theologians realize it’s all a bullsh*t scam: they’ve learned about it and thought about it.  In the end, there is no soul, there is no heaven, there is no hell, there is no Jesus, there is no God. It’s all just made-up sh*t to both anesthetize and control the weak and ignorant.  It’s filth of the most disgusting order and it’s shameful to be in any way associated with any of it.

“This is my belief - just like you have yours.”  Once again, for the millionth time for all you mouth-breathers: atheism: non, belief.  Atheists do not believe in any gods.  It’s not a philosophy, either, atavism.

“You need to learn to live with it.”  No, YOU need to learn about the world in which you live.  The REAL world, where uneducated, ignorant fools are being taken advantage of and where lying, hypocritical Christians are trying to control everyone else’s lives.  Religion (ANY religion) is a filthy remnant of humankind’s ignorant, superstitious past and it’s time society was cleansed of it and its practitioners, PERIOD.

P.S. - I know I shouldn’t break in on Annie’s thread but I just can’t resist responding to a stupid statement: “It is not up to me to convince you that Jesus is real. I can prove it through my daily prayer life, my relationship and testimony.”  REALLY?!  You failed so far: your testimony is pathetically ignorant and baseless.  But then, so is the lie of Christianity, so I guess I can’t expect you to rise above that.

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By Harlon57, May 12, 2007 at 3:44 pm Link to this comment

Observer,

You said “However, you must realize that in your life today - you have no God. You have no leader. No lord or king. It’s just you standing alone, Annie.”

In the end, isn’t that really the heart of the matter.

Into antiquity, people have been afraid, and so they conjured a god who smites them, loves them, tells them if you don’t bow to me I will torture you after you die.

All that, because you are afraid to stand alone.

I regard that as pitiful weakness of mind and character.

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By Observer, May 12, 2007 at 6:27 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To: Annie

If truth insults you, I cannot help that.
If you cannot handle examples/analogies of truth, there is nothing I can do about that either. 
Your perception is part of you, it’s who you are right now.
But truth is truth. Truth doesn’t always ring pleasant in the ears. That is the very nature of truth. It convicts.
You say you know your Bible, but it never shows. If you know your Bible, then you know that God is direct, to the point, and doesn’t avoid speaking directly about sin. God even disciplines those he loves. Does he do it with honey and sugar?  Let’s think about that one.. uh.. NO. He does it with sometimes horrible circumstances from disasters to famines to disease. However, he does love us enough to discipline us. Just like children. To bring us to Him and not away from Him. So therefore, showing love is not like this….. “here you go sweetie seek Jesus and He will give you donuts”. Seek Jesus and “die” to yourself (stop living for Annie). Jesus “died” for you and for all of us. He hung a cross and bleed and suffered to the extreme. That is graphic love.
To identify love you must have been loved and disciplined in your life. Direction, rules, love they all go hand in hand. Taking the time to understand what other people need to hear and they way it reaches them is love. I really do have a lot to do in my life. I am a very busy individual. I walk in the Spirit and seek truth continually. I have nothing to gain by talking to you personally- but mostly insults and persecution. I am rarely on a computer except in my occupation or to type correspondence. In fact I’m so not on the computer that “documentation” is all written information to me. smile However, it is one of the least of the things I could ever do for you is to break through the ice wall you have put up towards other people. I don’t know you Annie personally. I’m sure you have a very interesting story about what you have been through. But the past is the past and all you have is today. Tomorrow may not arrive. The choices you make now, today, could be your eternal destiny tomorrow. You are not guaranteed more days. 
However, you must realize that in your life today - you have no God. You have no leader. No lord or king. It’s just you standing alone, Annie.
You are a hardened woman. It shows in your words. You have been hurt, or beaten, or possibly violated either physically or mentally. You don’t have to be a genius to read between the lines. 
Your only rescue from this hardened life you live is
Jesus Christ the Son of God.
It is not up to me to convince you that Jesus is real. I can prove it through my daily prayer life, my relationship and testimony. It is completely up to you to seek it for yourself. I cannot save you - but the Holy Spirit can.

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By Observer, May 12, 2007 at 5:47 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: Logician

So sorry I left you out of the story I recently wrote. It must have really hurt your feelings.
In order to debate something you must have two sides or more.
My side (belief) is that your refusal to believe in God will cost you your soul. Period. Your personal story does have an end, if you remain in the blind state you are in, it is called hell. It is up to you to change your ways. No argument there. I believe that there will be a lot of college professor in hell. You cannot prove different so we don’t have to argue about that either. According to my belief is there is one thing you can count on in hell, it is a reunion with other non-believers. However, the air conditioner will be out down there and the menu will be horrible. Not something I care to attend or risk attending personally.
Everything you know came from either one of four sources: other peoples opinions, books on a shelf, your environment - scary to think of what it may have been, or technical sources/television. Absolutely none of these sources are infallible. No one can claim they can give you infallible instruction and truth but one source - God’s word in the Bible.
The Bible is holy and perfect. It is for all people including, rich, poor, educated, non-educated,etc.  Since you have such strong opinions about not being a believer and rate pride and the proper use of grammar higher than a souls destiny, I have this idea for you: Contact your nearest school of Christian theology,then ask to speak to their professor on campus. Let him tell you what you don’t want to hear one-on-one. But at least listen.
Then you can make the right decision you need to make for a complete life. If you ever decide where truth is and accept Jesus you will no longer be confused but enlightened. The priorities you have in your life will change and you will see that they will be as follows: God (serving Him), Spouse(if there is one), family(if applicable), friends, then job, and the normal functions of your life. My belief is that there will people from all walks of life in heaven, white-black-latin-rich-poor-etc. etc. - you name it. People who spoke proper english, people who make mistakes, people who speak ebonics, french, spanish, and tribal languages never heard of and people from the deep parts of the mountains of everywhere, etc. etc.  But there will not be not one, I repeat, not one, non-believer that continued to follow the lies of this world present.
This is my belief - just like you have yours. You need to learn to live with it.
Praise God He accepts all who repent and come to Him.
A true Christian nows that you must put God first and yourself last. You are first in your life. Which automatically makes you a fraud because the highest being in ones life is that persons God.
You can live your life in denial. You can argue about who typed the wrong letter, word, or idea. But you cannot argue yourself into heaven. Not even in with proper grammar! And before David from Florida gets a chance to say this, I will….. in my best language just for you:
“you think ‘bout that one there good buddy “yee haw”!

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By Logician, May 12, 2007 at 4:19 am Link to this comment

Re# Some observations for “Observer,” a messege for “The Messenger,” and finally, some thoughts for “David from Florida.”

#69250 is an interesting entry into the fray, “Observer.”  “After a complete review of the documentation on this site,...”  First, “Observer,” a hint: ‘observe’ a dictionary - your opening demonstrates a profound ignorance of the English language.  These are letters, messages, etc, on this blog, not “documentations.”  I am assuming English is your first language, of course. 

“You cannot really believe that you sound believable, or can you?”  We’ll skip the poor English and go for what you were trying to intimate: you make no reference to whom you are speaking, therefore this statement is as nonsensical as it can be.  But by #69462 you finally get around to whom you mean by demonstrating that you are not an “observer” but a “dumbass.”

You, like all other believers “Observer,” always drool and dribble about “pride” and “deceit.”  As an atheist, I deal with what is truly observable and verifiable.  It is not a difficult task to observe and verify that the original legends, fairy tales, and gospels of other, earlier cultures and religions are what form the stories that were plagiarized into that most pornographic of filthy books, the Christian bible.

It is also not a difficult task to notice that NO ‘miracle’ listed in that porno book HAS EVER OCCURRED. ANYWHERE. ANYTIME. EVER.  NO ONE walks on water, especially an imaginary man made up by power mad pederasts. NO ONE changes water into wine, etc, etc, etc.  Same goes for all the other sh*t listed in that porno book.  There’s the real “deceit.”  An atheist simply points that out and believers dribble and drool “pride!”  That’s not pride, it’s just the truth.

No, “Observer,” pride is claiming one is smarter because one believes in twice-copied poorly plagiarized fairy tales.  How cool is that?  NOT ONE thing in your belief system is original, nor even true. Yet you snottily attempt to appear superior in the company of people who base their lives on what is original and true.  You are no “Observer,” you’re just another “Dumbass.”  And that IS the end.

“The Messenger”: NOTHING you have typed into this site has ANY validity.  All you are doing is typing in pieces of a book that has been REPEATEDLY shown to be nothing more than a compilation of poorly plagiarized stories from other sources.  You demonstrate an ignorance as appalling as the filthy insane freaks on streetcorners drooling scriptures into their bottles.  You cannot debate your point with plagiarized false dictums.  In actuality, you have so far said nothing.  Your only “messege” is stupidity.  Nothing new there.

“David from Florida”: Greetings, imbecilic one.  Apparently you have grown some because you have realized that nothing YOU can say has any merit; so now you are attempting to sound like “The Messenger” and are just copying scriptures.  Read the above facts about the validity of ANY scripture, D.f.F. Look up ANY source from ANY reputable historian, D.f.F.  Then, in your own words: “THINK ABOUT IT!!”

Quite frankly, you troika of twits, if you had wished to make a fovorable impact for the make believe god you deludingly believe in, you have failed extremely miserably.  But don’t feel badly about it, NO ONE yet has EVER done what you’re trying to do: justify wasting your lives believing in what isn’t so.  But keep it up, at least you’re not breeding while you try to appear smarter than you are…

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By Annie Reitano, May 11, 2007 at 9:44 pm Link to this comment

#69462 by Observer on 5/11 at 5:55 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

Just another “Christianly” way of trying to insult people because you feel so lowly about your delusional thoughts.  AND you can’t prove any of the gods and monsters that haunt your everyday existence.

The real sad part is, Observer, that you faith heads don’t see that you’re the antithesis of what Christianity supposedly holds dear—loving they neighbour as thyself.  You’re a fraud and a bigot.

*YAWN* *STRETCH* *YAWN*

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By Harlon57, May 11, 2007 at 9:39 pm Link to this comment

Observer,

Was that meant to be instructive?

It was feeble. No logic.  Assertions made with no fact.

Pointless. Just like god.

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By Annie Reitano, May 11, 2007 at 9:34 pm Link to this comment

“Jesus said:

For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be earthquakes in various places, and there will be famines and troubles. These are the beginnings of sorrows.
Mark 12:8”

OMG! That is EXACTLY what my psychic hotline friend said.  Could these cheating freaks be any more vague? :0

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By Observer, May 11, 2007 at 6:55 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The story of Godlessness and the three naive atheists

Once upon a time there were three godless people. Jip, Fannie and Heinz57. The all decided they did not believe in God for various reasons. They spent most of their life on the internet and thought they knew everything about everything amongst each other.
They continually argued back and forth, to and fro, until their life became nothing but one big blur. You see Jip was the black sheep because he was mouthy and   appeared to be on drugs. Fannie was continually arguing and never had anything to say but criticism of others. Heinz57 was the most logical but still had a sense of confusion about what he was thinking.
Anyway, lets get to the real story:
They all went for a walk in the woods. They came upon a shack that looked abandoned. They looked in the windowand saw three bowls of lies sitting on the dining room table. They opened the door and all three sat down and consumed these bowls. Next, after such a long journey, they each sat in a rocking chair to relax. The rocking motion gave them such motion sickness they went in search of three beds. They found these beds upstairs and fell asleep in them. While they were asleep the owner of the house came home. The owner was Satan himself. He saw that the three bowls of lies were consumed and that the chairs had been sat in. He went upstairs and saw them sleeping. Knowing that the bowls of lies were also tainted with…................deceit and pride…... he just waited and waited and waited…. He stayed right beside each one of them as they slept. 
The sad part of the story is none of these three have ever risen from the deep sleep the bowl of lies put them into. Satan is waiting around to see if they ever realize what they have swallowed is a poison to their very soul.
There is no end yet…....it’s still be written.

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By The Messenger, May 11, 2007 at 5:43 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Whoever has no rule over his own spirit
Is like a city broken down, without walls.
Proverbs 26:28


Jesus said:

For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be earthquakes in various places, and there will be famines and troubles. These are the beginnings of sorrows.
Mark 12:8

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By Harlon57, May 11, 2007 at 2:15 pm Link to this comment

Jim H. cannot read.

I’ve always contended that there is no god.  You are easily confused just because I showed you how a person of faith could disprove your theory.

I’ve always contended that your proof of no god, was no proof at all.

You attempt to use physics that you don’t understand, and it shows you to be a person with a very limited education.

If all faith-heads see your flimsy argument and think that all atheists are that dumb, you harm the cause.

Once again, you rant like a bratty child.

Go to school. Get a proper education.

Stop embarrassing yourself.

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By Jim H., May 11, 2007 at 6:42 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: 69292
 
Rev. Hardlon;

After needling, and harassing me in several posts, using all the insidious derogatory remarks that you could muster, likely comprise the major part of your vocabulary, or, that you could fit in your ‘numb’scull,  to: “DISPROVE ‘your’ absurd “God”,  Now? Now?

NOW?  NOW?  NOW?  A./HO!  ‘YOU’  ‘FINALLY’!  ‘arrive at’,  ‘and’,  ‘YOU’  SAY:
“I AGREE “GOD HAS NEVER BEEN PROVEN”! ?  (REPEAT THAT WHILE LOOKING AT THAT IMBECILE IN YOUR SHAVING MIRROR!) 

THAT IS WHAT MY!  NUMEROUS POSTS HAVE ‘REPEATEDLY STATED’! (SEE PRIOR POSTS)OR CLEARLY IMPLIED!  By my saying “without something to create, a “Creator God” is a superfluous absurdity!”

Then, You say: “What I don’t approve of is your—-understanding of physics.”  (?) MORE LUNACY! 
My, My, so, you “don’t approve”?  Why, should anyone in their right mind ‘give a rat’s ‘rear end’ about what ‘you’ approve of, you PEDANTIC DAMN FOOL?

If everyone was a Physicist, you would not be alive!    Ask your ‘daddy’ to sloooowwwwly, explain this to you!  And, STOP! SNIFFIN’ THAT CHEAP HORSE!

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By The Messenger, May 11, 2007 at 3:49 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.    Ephesians 1:7

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By Harlon57, May 10, 2007 at 10:43 pm Link to this comment

Jim H. You are a complete moron.

I agree. god has never been proven.

What I don’t approve of is your childish understanding of physics.

You are one of the many who are atheists without understanding.

You have arrived at the correct position, but are as stupid as faith-heads.

You really don’t understand the physics behind your claim.

You are an intellectual fraud.

Your pathetic attempts at science and logic make those of us who study those disciplines feel embarrassed.

I am an engineer who understands the movement of quarks and gluons, and feel pity for your type of pretender.

You will forever be one who believes for all the wrong reasons.

You are shameful. Go away.

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By Harlon57, May 10, 2007 at 9:46 pm Link to this comment

Annie, it is unkind of us to point out the deficiency in the argument.

But then again, it is fun…

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By Annie Reitano, May 10, 2007 at 9:41 pm Link to this comment

Talk about sophomoric.

LOL And schizophrenic.  He’s telling himself that he’s the only one that makes sense here, all the while alluding that our friends make fun of us behind our backs….LOL

It’s Messenger and he’s about 12

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By Harlon57, May 10, 2007 at 9:35 pm Link to this comment

Annie, I wouldn’t be surprised that “observer” is either “messenger” or Jim H. trying to provide cover.

Either way, it was silly, he/she/it mentioned that “you” as an individual, meaning that they were arguing against only one person.

Talk about sophomoric.

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By Annie Reitano, May 10, 2007 at 9:33 pm Link to this comment

#69234 by David from Florida on 5/10 at 5:15 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

“THINK ABOUT IT!”

David, clearly you’re stuck on stupid.
Snap out of it.

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By Annie Reitano, May 10, 2007 at 9:30 pm Link to this comment

#69250 by Observer on 5/10 at 6:50 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

Wow!  And that was worthy of the Pulitzer Prize there, Observer!  Woo hoo!  I just want to get all religious when I read the same, apparently plagarised [seen it all before] stuff from an insulting “gentleman” like yourself who is clearly all wise and all knowing.  You’re God, man! 

What did you manage to say or teach us, Obe Wan?  You come in, post insults about how silly we look and then you leave without dropping us one ounce of enlightenment.

Have you ever heard about the pot calling the kettle black?  Well, if you really think about it, you will understand it now.  wink

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By Jim H., May 10, 2007 at 8:58 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Rev. Harlon;

FIRST:  THE “EXISTANCE”  OF “GOD” HAS NEVER BEEN PROVEN!   
YET—- You say: “Provide your—-proof of the lack of existence of god”? 
This is IRRATIONAL!
Haven’t you ever learned that it is not necessary to dis-prove something that does not exist?
I say again:  THE “EXISTANCE”  OF “GOD” HAS NEVER BEEN PROVEN! 

Any one who keeps ‘harping’ for proof that ‘your’ garbage “God” does not exist, is an absolute idiot!
Do you also go around asking strangers to prove to you that Santa Claus does not exist?
You are a great “embarassment” to the “SCIENCE’ of “mathmatics” and humanity, and,I doubt very much if you truly know the meaning of the words “physics”, and/or “logic” because ‘you’ are so illogical and no physicist or intelligent mathmetician would ever ask someone to “prove’ the existancs”, or “non-existance” of a makebelieve, fairytale conjectured absurdity.

You pretend to be intelligent; but, so far, all you have proven is that you have a big ‘fat mouth’ for ‘talking’ or writing nonsense to disprove reason with your stupid questions in an attempt to use the messenger as a tool in your insideous pursuit of a free ride on your next ego trip!
Neither I, nor, anyone else has to be a “physicist” to read, or writethe words of an accepted “Natural Law”.
And you only show yourself a joker or other type of idiot for even ‘thinking’ that.

You admit: “This—- (“Law”) has been—-(extant)—- for over one hundred years!
As a “mathmetician” you ought to know, that ever since Einsteins “E=mc2” in 1905, most scientists, not screwed up with warped minds ‘like-you’, came to understand that no “first cause” was necessary, nor was there any such thing as a “beginning”, because “matter/energy changed, but never disappeared”.  This determination that most intelligent people (‘ALL’ Godists are idiots) today accept as true, automatically eliminates, and nullifies to sensible people, any need, or possibility of a “CREATOR” GOD”!  That is what I have been ‘posting’!  I accept Einsteins “E=mc2” to be the absolute BEST explanation for the world we live in.  And, I coincidently arrived at an understanding, that although not SCIENTIFIC, is compatable with the conclusion to be drawn therefrom by my trying to imagine a “BEGINNING”, and realizing that every thing, other than what I call, “the origin of Nature” must have an ‘impetus’! Including the “Big Bang”!  I thereupon wrote:
“Beginning is never found but keep your ear to the ground
Accept the words of a friend theres no beginning or end
Natures origin for instance is ceaslessness existance.

And, more recently I wrote:
Mass/ Energy never disappear
Ever present ever here
JH 5/10/07
I have absolutely no interest in anyone’s idea, or opinion involving some conception or assertion of a “God” and will not discuss it at all. Anyone who does not agree with my posturing on this subject can go to that place supposedly reserved for evil ‘Godists, or “infidels” spelled with an H, an, E, and 2 Ls! 
And any “mathmatician” ‘not screwed up—- like you’—- would never even mention your “God”, no less ask someone to prove “it’s existance, or “lack” of existance”!
Because I am reasonablly convinced your ego, lack of civility, and lack of common sense prevent you from absorbing any information, I am writing this more as a clarification for any who may have read some of your here-to-fore posted folderol, blather and rubbish.

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By Jim H., May 10, 2007 at 8:50 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hello Observer,
You are very observant!
Thank you for your UN-paid-for very astute observations.
Kindly clarify my understanding of your visit hereabouts?
Are you at all concerned with the ‘topic’ of the “Report”, or are you practicing ‘critique’ with a higher purpose in mind?  If so, good luck.

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By Harlon57, May 10, 2007 at 8:34 pm Link to this comment

Observer, by the way, you say you reviewed the “documentation” on this site.

Their is no “documentation” on this site.

Perhaps you meant to sound intelligent, but you used the wrong word.

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By Harlon57, May 10, 2007 at 8:27 pm Link to this comment

Observer, please tell us why you didn’t bother to register prior to doing us the favor of providing your opinion.

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By Observer, May 10, 2007 at 7:50 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

After a complete review of the documentation on this site, I have come to the conclusion that only one person in here has the ability to reason or analyze information or truth. No, it is not you. Your parents need to apply for a full refund from a few colleges. You have obviously misled yourselves into believing you are something you are not. Anyone who reads the debates within this site will soon see unreliable information, contradictory statements, and a somewhat drug induced stupor from one individual.
By the way, the language you speak with does not make you look intelligent, it makes you look as though you have low self-esteem and an over inflated ego. If any major newscaster spoke like most of you on this site - they would be fired their first day at work. You sound like partially educated idiots. You cannot really believe that you sound believable, or can you?
I’m almost positive that people are amused at you behind your backs. I would suggest that you record yourself speaking, listen to it. and then reflect on how you sound.

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By David from Florida, May 10, 2007 at 6:15 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Greetings:

Again,

3:23-27; Luke 11:17-22] And [Matt 9:4] knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.

THINK ABOUT IT!!

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By The Messenger, May 10, 2007 at 4:56 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The tongue of the wise uses knowledge rightly, But the mouth of fools pours forth foolishness.  Proverbs 15:2

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By Harlon57, May 10, 2007 at 1:06 pm Link to this comment

Jim H.  you really cannot process logic.

Although I am an atheist, that fact does not preclude my use of logic. I used that logic to point out the flaw in your supposed proof against a god.

I do not believe in god, but not for the irrational reason you provide in your supposed proof.

No great thinker of today agrees with your assessment that the law of conservation of energy provide proof against the existence of god. 

This has been tried for over one hundred years, always by people with no background in the sciences who are confused by what they read.

“the law of conservation of mass/energy” is just a term bigshot. It is based on mathematics.

Provide your mathematical proof of the lack of existence of god using the law of conservation of mass/energy.

You can’t because you don’t understand it. You are a laughable, unaccomplished, small-minded man.

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By Jim H., May 10, 2007 at 9:22 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Rev. Harlon;

You say: “I am an atheist” (?)

THIS LIE IS PROVEN BY YOUR OWN WORDS WRITTEN IN YOUR PRIOR POSTS FOR ALL TO SEE! 

You have said this: “__god used what was available—-”  I say: no atheist would ever say that!

AND, You said this: “—-for gods sake he was using magic—-” I say no atheist would ever say that!

No “atheist” or non-believer of that farcical crap would ever say or writesuch absurdities!

Your mind is warped like those little children who have been brainwashed and indoctrinated with that fairy tale, and you embarass yourself by going on record with such contradicting lies!

Further, when I quote you a PROVEN FACT, you call it a theory? (” half-baked theories”)
You are sick!

So, besides being a PROVEN liar who has no sense of what you say, you are an outright fool!

I doubt if you even understand what you are writing, or have enough sense to feel “embarassment’!

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By Harlon57, May 9, 2007 at 10:04 pm Link to this comment

Jim H.

I am an atheist, and I completely embarrassed you intellectually.

You don’t respond because you can’t.

My guess is that you might have graduated from high school, but you certainly did not graduate from a college or university.

Your lack of intellect and logic make it impossible for you to have graduated from a school of higher learning.

Your childish attacks are evidence of your fear of being found out.

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By Annie Reitano, May 9, 2007 at 9:44 pm Link to this comment

#69073 by Jim H. on 5/09 at 6:34 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

LOL You’re an insane person, aren’t you?  Do the boys in the white coats know you’re on the computer? 

An earlier post from you, Jim: #68043 by Jim H. on 5/03 at 8:20 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

Annie Reitano;
BRAVO!  Thank you for the ‘very’ apropos quote from Emmet F. Fields!
And thank you for many delightful Secular phrases the ‘contrary’ fools and detractors have trouble comprehending, which perhaps can be reduced to, and en-capsulated “Faith is the antithesis of reason!”

Double talk!  And you DO talk a lot about things of an “anal” nature.  I suspect you need to take a Lithium and try not to wake up screaming.

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By Harlon57, May 9, 2007 at 8:58 pm Link to this comment

Annie, 
one of the things I love about cosmology and physics is that we get to learn answers to the questions of the ages.  Every brilliant thinker of the last several thousand years would love to know what we know.

Plus, we get pictures! From satellites in space, and from scanning electron microscopes.  Unbelievably amazing time to be alive.

I am an engineer specializing in the design of integrated circuits, so I have a natural affinity for these topics.

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By Annie Reitano, May 9, 2007 at 8:41 pm Link to this comment

Thanks, Harlon

You can believe I will learn just enough to be dangerous.

Laughed out loud again.  I went to med school really briefly and I was and avid studier of different diseases and their symptoms which are often very similar from one disease to the next…but I loved it anyway.  Now friends and some of my family will give me their symptoms from time to time -of something they’re concerned about.  I always tell them that I know just enough to be scary.  Then I send them to WebMD…lol

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By Jim H., May 9, 2007 at 8:30 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Rev. Harlon
I see you continue to avoid the subject by asking stupid questions! “Columbo technique: Asking stupid questions”
I have no intention of humoring a lying “Godist”!
Your “question” does not disprove anything!
Every ‘inteligent’ person on earth knows that your so called “Creator God” is an ABSURDITY!
WHEN THERE NEVER WAS SOMETHING TO “CREATE”!
And phony lies will not change that!
If you had any sense at all you would not believe in that fairytale, and all the b/s you writedoes in no way support that fakery! Stop lying! You don’t demonstrate enough brainpower to be anything other than an idiotic robotic GODIST!  Intelligent people don’t continually avoid the subject at hand by sidetracking the subject with asininne irrelative questions! And ridiculous assertions.
Stop slobbering on your Alb! 
And, Have your ‘daddy’ read my earlier post to you slooowwwly! And you should’nt be up so late!
  Try EX-LAX!

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By Jim H., May 9, 2007 at 7:34 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: Harlan & Annie;
You two seem like a two juveniles who, like a couple of “in-the-closet” fanatical ‘GODISTS”? have joined forces with intent of disrupting this “Report by playing “TWENTY QUESTIONS”, instead of “Posting” “COMMENTS”! about the subject at hand!
Very childish!

Socratic questions
Why are you saying that?
What exactly does this mean?
How does this relate to what we have been talking about?
What is the nature of ...?
What do we already know about this?
Can you give me an example?
Are you saying ... or ... ?
Can you rephrase that, please?

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By Harlon57, May 9, 2007 at 7:29 pm Link to this comment

Annie,

Steven Hawking’s “The Illustrated A Brief History of Time” and also his subsequent book “The Universe in a Nutshell” are both excellent books, and while technical, not to much so regarding mathematics.

They are both meant for laypeople.  Learn just enough to be dangerous.

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By Annie Reitano, May 9, 2007 at 7:15 pm Link to this comment

“Just thought you might find multiple histories and imaginary time intriguing.”

I do find it intriguing.  I would like a recommended book that can teach about Quantum gravity in regard to the Big Bang theory, if you know of one.  The whole “quark-gluon” thing was extremely interesting to me.

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By Harlon57, May 9, 2007 at 6:20 pm Link to this comment

Annie, very close,

The difference in the particle is that in this approach, a particle does not have just a single history, as it would in classical theory.

Instead, the particle is supposed to follow every possible path in spacetime, and with each of these histories there are associated a couple of numbers, one representing the size of a wave and the other representing its position in the cycle (its phase).

Stranger yet, some of the waves take place in “imaginary time”, which is a well defined mathematical concept.

Just thought you might find multiple histories and imaginary time intriguing.

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By The Messenger, May 9, 2007 at 6:05 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

God says:

For whoever finds me finds life. And obtains favor from the Lord: But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul: All those who hate me love death.  Proverbs 8: 35,26

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By Annie Reitano, May 9, 2007 at 5:57 pm Link to this comment

Harlon57,

That was in difficult (as if they’re all not).  Is it wave particle duality or pilot waves?

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By Harlon57, May 9, 2007 at 4:52 pm Link to this comment

Annie, we don’t yet have a complete and consistent theory that combines quantum mechanics and gravity.

However, one of the features that we are fairly sure a unified theory would have is that it should incorporate Feynman’s proposal to formulate quantum theory in terms of a sum over histories.

What is different about a particle that it would not exhibit in a classical theory?

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By Annie Reitano, May 9, 2007 at 4:29 pm Link to this comment

#69045 by Harlon57 on 5/09 at 3:17 pm
(46 comments total)

“Annie, much as I hate to give the answer to Jim…

It is confinement. It always binds particles together into combinations that have no color (said to be white).  You cannot have a single quark on its own because it would have a color. Same thing for gluons”

Well, I don’t think Jim would have answered you anyway—if it makes you feel any better.  But keep asking.  And if he can’t answer another question, I will give it a go.  I rather like it.

I came upon something about confinement but never thought anything of it.  Terms like “hadronization” and QCD kept coming up more than anything else—-oh!  And vacuums and the necessity to suck the space from between the quarks—for some reason I can’t remember.  Another thing that kept coming up was the need for high density heat, and speed.

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By Harlon57, May 9, 2007 at 4:17 pm Link to this comment

Annie, much as I hate to give the answer to Jim…

It is confinement. It always binds particles together into combinations that have no color (said to be white).  You cannot have a single quark on its own because it would have a color. Same thing for gluons.

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By Annie Reitano, May 9, 2007 at 4:10 pm Link to this comment

Harlon57,

OMG, is it “colour”?  I can’t believe I have been reading about this all afternoon…hahhaha Say it’s true!

““color” being the fanciful name for the strong-nuclear-force equivalent of electrical charge. For example, a proton would normally consist of a red, blue, and green quark which (in a color sense) adds up to zero. “

Oh but it’s interesting when they make it understandable!!

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By Harlon57, May 9, 2007 at 3:57 pm Link to this comment

Annie, you’re getting close.

Quantum Chromodynamics is the theory that describes the interactions of quarks and gluons, but is not the property of the strong nuclear force that I was asking Jim H. to answer.

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By Annie Reitano, May 9, 2007 at 3:54 pm Link to this comment

JIM H

“So, ‘I’ rightfully ASK ‘YOU’: “Do you—-stop them by cursing it?”

I don’t think I have ever cursed a book.  I merely point out crooked facts.  And yes, sometimes it works remarkably well.  I assume much better than if I were just to say “that shit is GARBAGE” without being able to show why it’s not worth the worship it receives.

You’re an angry person, aren’t you?

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By Harlon57, May 9, 2007 at 3:51 pm Link to this comment

Jim H. you say “Without something to ‘create! a “so-called “God” “Creator” is an impossible superfluous nonentity! “

First let me say as an atheist, I’m embarrassed by your complete lack of logic.

If god existed forever, along with matter, he could have easily shaped it any which way using whatever laws or principles he liked, for gods sake he was using magic.

You are stuck on the false conundrum of; if there is a “creator” there must be something to “create”.

Well, as I said, god used what was available, and “shaped” or “created” the universe as we know it.

So much for your theory.

By the way, unless you understand physics, you shouldn’t go around tossing out half-baked theories.

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By Annie Reitano, May 9, 2007 at 3:49 pm Link to this comment

Harlon57,

QCD Quantum Chromodynamics? 

I admit, I googled it. Pretty fascinating.  I would fail phsysics…lol

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By Jim H., May 9, 2007 at 2:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To: Annie Reitano;
You say:
“Do you think you’re going to stop them by cursing it?”  (?)

‘YOU’ are the one who is CONSTANTLY “CURSING ‘IT’”!  by repeatedly degrading it in their ‘eyes’!
So, ‘I’ rightfully ASK ‘YOU’: “Do you—-stop them by cursing it?
‘And’ ‘YOU’ are ‘thereby’ “fueling their Jihad”!

Anything is better than constantly showing that you credit that garbage heap enough to ‘handle it’ even to criticize it, or, cite it ‘chapter & verse’!

How do you rationalize it’s total effluvial putrid, rancid, revolting, sliminess; when you filthy your hands, and foul up your thoughts and writings by constantly recalling or rereading it? Thus, you are informing those jokers that, even you, a ‘naysayer’, spend, and have spent much time of your ‘professorial-like’ ability, to research, parse, dissect, and analyze something you now want them to believe you find totally repugnant, and disastrously destructive?  And they, must totally shun ‘it’ for fear they be infected with a plague-like disease they will never recover from? 

“Show them their own words or prove that the Universe is God”.(?)

That “G—” word stands for stinking Garbage!
Another absurdity! That ‘term’ is an important devious ‘device’ used by rotten thieves to enslave the masses!
‘It’ must be buried with all the other artifices they use to befuddle, mesmerize and entrap innocent children and fools into their web of rottenness!

And, for those of us who live in the REAL WORLD, the “UNIVERSE” is known to be composed of “mass and energy” a fact!  And it is an integral part of NATURE which is very succinctly described here:
 
Mass and energy never disappear
They ever were and ever will be here!
JH 5/8/07
——————————————————-
Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy
  1. In the Universe there is a finite amount of matter and energy. We cannot create any new matter or energy nor can we destroy any of the matter or energy we have for the Universe as a whole.
  2. We can change matter to energy and energy to matter without gaining or losing any of either to the Universe. 
  3. Energy can be changed in form, from one to another, without any loss to the Universe. 
4. Matter can be changed in form, or state, without any loss of matter to the Universe.
———————————————————
Without something to ‘create! a “so-called “God” “Creator” is an impossible superfluous nonentity!
——————————————————
A beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground
Accept the words of a friend theres no beginning or end
Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness existance
JH 8/29/06
————————————————————————
The “Big Bang” is just another “CREATED” term for a ‘so called’ (nonexistent) “CREATION”?
There is absolutely no more way to prove the so-called “BIG BANG THEORY”, then there
is to PROVE the silly idea of a “God Creator”; because, SOMETHING, perhaps another
“BIG BANG”, or, a series of minuscule “BANGS”, or, some other ‘impetus’ unknown to us
‘caused’ the “BIG BANG”! 
Anything you could possibly imagine except NATURE itself requires an ‘impetus’,
but NATURES, ceaselessness is ever existing!

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By Harlon57, May 9, 2007 at 1:08 pm Link to this comment

Jim H. you said “Have your ‘daddy’ read my post to you slooowwwly!
You seem a constipated fool! You NEED A “PHYSIC”!”

How very mature of you.

Your answer proved the point that you couldn’t answer the very simple physics question I posed, so you attacked me in an ad hominem way.  That is always a sure sign of someone who is losing.

You can’t answer the simple question posed to you, therefore you are a fraud.

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By Annie Reitano, May 9, 2007 at 11:02 am Link to this comment

#68937 by Jim H. on 5/09 at 7:08 am
(Unregistered commenter)

“Annie; You give ‘CREDENCE’ to that decrepid pile of garbage by any reference to it at all!”

Do you think you’re going to stop them by cursing it?  You’re fueling their Jihad, Jim.  Show them their own words or prove that the Universe is God.  At any rate, calm down.

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By Jim H., May 9, 2007 at 8:08 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Annie; You give ‘CREDENCE’ to that decrepid pile of garbage by any reference to it at all!
By your citing, or acknowledging it’a existance you provoke, incite and stimulate more interest in it because some of those idiots think they know more about the parts you cite. You are providing them ammunition for keeping their battle alive! Ignore that crap! 

Show them this proof that a “Creator God” is impossible!
Because there’s nothing to create!

Mass and energy never disappear
They ever were and ever will be here!
JH 5/8/07
Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy
  1. In the Universe there is a finite amount of matter and energy. We cannot create any new matter or energy nor can we destroy any of the matter or energy we have for the Universe as a whole.
  2. We can change matter to energy and energy to matter without gaining or losing any of either to the Universe. 
  3. Energy can be changed in form, from one to another, without any loss to the Universe. 
4. Matter can be changed in form, or state, without any loss of matter to the Universe.
———————————————————
Without something to ‘create! a “so-called “God” “Creator” is an impossible superfluous nonentity!
A beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground
Accept the words of a friend theres no beginning or end
Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness existance
JH 8/29/06

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By Annie Reitano, May 8, 2007 at 10:00 pm Link to this comment

#68860 by The Messenger on 5/08 at 5:38 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

“Jesus said:

If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. 

Luke 9:23,24”

Yes, in order to save your life, you need to lose it, messenger.  So just shoot yourself for Jesus and take the bribe he offered you via Luke.

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By Jim H., May 8, 2007 at 8:53 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: 68875 Harlon  
You say:
“You bring in physics in an attempt(?) to prove your assumption”.(?)

FACTS ARE NOT “ATTEMPTS TO PROVE ASSUMPTIONS”!
I HAVE QUOTED AN ESTABLISHED LAW!  A FACT OF LIFE!
FACTS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES!
Have your ‘daddy’ read my post to you slooowwwly!
You seem a constipated fool! You NEED A “PHYSIC”!
READ THIS:
Mass and energy never disappear
They ever were and ever will be here!
J.H. 5/8/07
Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy
  1. In the Universe there is a finite amount of matter and energy. We cannot create any new matter or energy nor can we destroy any of the matter or energy we have for the Universe as a whole.
  2. We can change matter to energy and energy to matter without gaining or losing any of either to the Universe. 
  3. Energy can be changed in form, from one to another, without any loss to the Universe. 
4. Matter can be changed in form, or state, without any loss of matter to the Universe.
———————————————————
Without something to ‘create! a “so-called “God” “Creator” is an impossible superfluous nonentity!
Further, you can’t change the “Law” or the facts, with your juvenile asinine attempt to “discredit the messenger” with your ‘snide’ remarks! Grow up!  The World is awaiting your BRILLIANT REFUTATION of a so often proven LAW!

Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground Accept the words of a friend theres no beginning or end Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness existance! JH 8/29/06

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By Harlon57, May 8, 2007 at 8:08 pm Link to this comment

Jim H.
You bring in physics in an attempt to prove your assumption. 

I would like to ask you what the property is called that prevents one from observing an isolated quark or gluon.

This should be easy for someone who is attempting to prove the non-existence of god using physics.

Beyond that point, I think you discredit yourself with the nature of your attack.

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By Jim H., May 8, 2007 at 6:58 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: 68831 David
“I do not think anyone can say anything negative about this verse.” (?)

Verses? Curses?
Do you hold your nose when thumbing through that pile of pornograhic stinking manure written by a bunch of rotten thieves for the mindless, that preaches killing and slavery? Or, are you perhaps one of those who use it to do the entrapment of children for immoral purposes?
Now that you know there never was a “Jesus”, and there can be no “Creator God”, you ought to realize if you have the least bit of sense, that those writings are meant to support scoundrels, in their pursuit of making all people of the world into the image of enslaved mentally deranged robots like ‘you’, who would kill their mothers if their “Priest” or “Minister” told them it was “for the love of “God”! (See Terrorist!)

Mass and energy never disappear
They ever were and ever will be here!
J.H. 5/8/07

Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy
  1. In the Universe there is a finite amount of matter and energy. We cannot create any new matter or energy nor can we destroy any of the matter or energy we have for the Universe as a whole.
  2. We can change matter to energy and energy to matter without gaining or losing any of either to the Universe. 
  3. Energy can be changed in form, from one to another, without any loss to the Universe. 
4. Matter can be changed in form, or state, without any loss of matter to the Universe.
———————————————————
Without something to ‘create! a “so-called “God Creator” is an impossibel superfluous nonentity!

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By The Messenger, May 8, 2007 at 6:38 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Jesus said:

If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. 

Luke 9:23,24

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By Annie Reitano, May 8, 2007 at 5:45 pm Link to this comment

#68831 by David from Florida on 5/08 at 2:44 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

Greetings:

“You people are so full of it. You are so ready to offend, but not be offended. So ready to attack, but not be attacked. You know no one can defend themselves from people who think of them as phony.”

Where the hell have you been?  Atheists get attacked more than anyone including gay people! 


“Only God, family,and friends know who we really are,and some day we will have to answer to that. You people are so into yourselves you do not even know when someone is hacking on you. Example read #68270 by stumbled in this site on 5/04 at 5:55 pm. Annie this person is making fun of you.”

The person who used the word “cleverer”? LOL How the hell would you know unless it was you?  I think you’re offended here, good Christian.  And by the by, when do you suppose this god will get around to making us “answer to that?”  And which god do you think will do it?


“It is so easy to misinterpret the Bible or come up with your own meaning,it is harder to understand it completely. I have to agree a lot of Christians do not understand what they are reading but that is what a sound Bible believing church is for.”

If it’s so easy to misinterpret the Bible, then it can’t be Holy inspired by an omnipotent being, then can it?  Which proves the point that MEN wrote that book.  Now, which church do you think is a “sound Bible believing church?”  Because I guarantee you, another Christian will disagree with it. 

“The Messenger, this person is the only one accomplishing any thing on this site.”

Let’s just assume I am not smart enough.  Besides quoting the Bible, what did he accomplish?  Do tell. 


“I do not think anyone can say anything negative about this verse. [Mark 3:23-27; Luke 11:17-22] And [Matt 9:4] knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.”

Of course I can say a LOT about it. Jesus was speaking in a parable about himself.  After the pharisees called him Beelzebub, Jesus, the protaganist here…said “How can Satan drive out Satan?  For a house divided against itself cannot stand”...he was referring to the fact that he had driven out demons into some unsuspecting pigs(amongst other things) who then threw themselves from a cliff.  He didn’t even have the decency to respect animals in their innocence.  Anywho, the point being, he couldn’t have been Beelzebub if he was driving OUT Beelzebub. 

There is MORE to that parable so YOU had better think about that before you grab it and use it for your defence.  smile

“THINK ABOUT IT!!”

Yes, take your own advice.

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By Harlon57, May 8, 2007 at 4:51 pm Link to this comment

Glad you saw the humor in it.

It would appear this thread is about dead.

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By Annie Reitano, May 8, 2007 at 4:43 pm Link to this comment

#68842 by Harlon57 on 5/08 at 3:32 pm
(40 comments total)

“Nothing more than an argument.  I’m always interested to see how many logical fallacies people will make when arguing their point.

Just passing the time while I’m working.”

That actually made me laugh out loud big time.  Okay then, done with the arguing for the sake of arguing.  If it’s for a point, I will listen but if it’s just for the sake of it, it’s seems foolish and I am done—-for now.  LOL

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By Harlon57, May 8, 2007 at 4:32 pm Link to this comment

Nothing more than an argument.  I’m always interested to see how many logical fallacies people will make when arguing their point.

Just passing the time while I’m working.

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By Annie Reitano, May 8, 2007 at 4:27 pm Link to this comment

“You assume that I don’t have biblical knowledge. You assume that I am jealous. You assume that I despise those faiths. I don’t.”
 
I previously mentioned that you were accepting things on faith, and that you weren’t using reason, and the best you can do is repeat it back to me.
You say there is no other reason that you can think of.”

Your lack of ability to understand my interest in utilizing reason is once again evidence that you rely heavily on things you read, and not on the power of your intellect.”

Okay Harlon,

We’re going to agree to disagree.  Free thought is good but will get you nowhere on it’s own merits with faithies and I think you’re smart enough to have figured that out.  So, having said that, explain to me why you’re going through all of this with me and what you are trying to “teach” me.  And I would also like to know why you would ASSUME that I rely heavily on things that I have read—just because I use them here. This place is the MOST appropriate place I have found for that.  AND I would like to add that much of what I just wrote to you and some of these others IS MINE!  So, YOUR assumption that I can’t reason is also erroneous. But now “I have put it back on you”. You’re going in circles and please stop, because, I have no idea what you’re on about. 

You are arguing like a person who wants a conversion.  So state for me, what it is you really would like from me.  And don’t play word games—just state your case.

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By Harlon57, May 8, 2007 at 4:06 pm Link to this comment

Annie said: “This is using the Bible, knowing it’s passages, along with reason, Harlon.  Maybe you’re just jealous because you only have YOUR way of reasoning and you really need to learn about the faiths you despise.  OR you’re arguing as an atheist but are really a faith head.  Either way, you’re barking up the wrong tree and for no reason that I can think of.”

You assume that I don’t have biblical knowledge. You assume that I am jealous. You assume that I despise those faiths. I don’t. 
I previously mentioned that you were accepting things on faith, and that you weren’t using reason, and the best you can do is repeat it back to me.
You say there is no other reason that you can think of.

Your lack of ability to understand my interest in utilizing reason is once again evidence that you rely heavily on things you read, and not on the power of your intellect.

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By Annie Reitano, May 8, 2007 at 3:58 pm Link to this comment

I see it in their faces and I hear it in their voices of hesitation—that’s all the evidence I need.

People will believe what they want to.  No matter what contradiction I come up with and I realise that. Some folks will do enough elaborate gymnastics to rationalise it, because they start from the premise that the Bible is perfect.

What I have found even more effective is to question why an omnipotent being would use second-hand revelation as the preferred communication method in the first place.  If I can chip away at what an incredibly stupid idea that is, maybe we can make progress.  See, this is something most people take for granted and never thought to question, so it kind of takes them off guard.

God had a message for ALL of humanity but told only a tiny few Bronze-age tribesmen?  God wants a personal relationship with you but uses agents to get it?  These are concepts hugely contradictory, but nobody even thinks about it.

Basically, there is NO advantage for an omnipotent being to communicate this way, and there is LOTS of downside risk (conflicting messages from people claiming to speak on God’s behalf, having divine commands dependent on fallible humans for distribution, translation, interpretation, some people being “special” recipients over others, creating instant cultural barriers to acceptance of a universal message, ...).  There is simply no reason to believe that a reasonably bright God would use such a piss-poor method.  What’s the advantage?  I can’t think of one either.

This is using the Bible, knowing it’s passages,  along with reason, Harlon.  Maybe you’re just jealous because you only have YOUR way of reasoning and you really need to learn about the faiths you despise.  OR you’re arguing as an atheist but are really a faith head.  Either way, you’re barking up the wrong tree and for no reason that I can think of.

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By David from Florida, May 8, 2007 at 3:44 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Greetings:

You people are so full of it. You are so ready to offend, but not be offended. So ready to attack, but not be attacked. You know no one can defend themselves from people who think of them as phony. Only God, family,and friends know who we really are,and some day we will have to answer to that. You people are so into yourselves you do not even know when someone is hacking on you. Example read #68270 by stumbled in this site on 5/04 at 5:55 pm. Annie this person is making fun of you.

It is so easy to misinterpret the Bible or come up with your own meaning,it is harder to understand it completely. I have to agree a lot of Christians do not understand what they are reading but that is what a sound Bible believing church is for.

The Messenger, this person is the only one accomplishing any thing on this site. I am not going to tell you why I believe this, you are so smart you figure it out.

I do not think anyone can say anything negative about this verse. [Mark 3:23-27; Luke 11:17-22] And [Matt 9:4] knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.

THINK ABOUT IT!!

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By Jim H., May 8, 2007 at 2:57 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy

  1. In the Universe there is a finite amount of matter and energy. We cannot create any new matter or energy nor can we destroy any of the matter or energy we have for the Universe as a whole.

  2. We can change matter to energy and energy to matter without gaining or losing any of either to the Universe. 
  3. Energy can be changed in form, from one to another, without any loss to the Universe. 

  4. Matter can be changed in form, or state, without any loss of matter to the Universe.
———————————————————
Without something to ‘create!
a “so-called “Creator” is a superfluous nonentity!

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By Harlon57, May 8, 2007 at 2:45 pm Link to this comment

Annie “And even if people don’t say anything—I believe that it plants the first seeds of doubt.  That’s really all I need. That and a “well you can’t take all of it literally…” and I am IN! booyah!”

You are saying that you don’t need evidence to know you are right. You assume you plant seeds, and that they germinate.  Your assumption, while maybe true, is unproven.  Moreover, it shows the mindset that you don’t require evidence to know something is true, which is exactly the mentality of a faithhead. 

You haven’t even solved your own lack of reason. perhaps this is why you cling to the bible as your source of debate, it is all you have.

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By Annie Reitano, May 8, 2007 at 2:30 pm Link to this comment

#68822 by Harlon57 on 5/08 at 1:13 pm
(37 comments total)

“Annie,
You said: “Most all of my friends to this day are Christian, Harlon and not ONE of them knows how the Judeo-Christian belief ties into the OT—nor do they care.”

“So in your own life, with your own friends, you have that little impact that not ONE of them knows or cares.

That proves that your tactics are ineffectual.  You can’t even influence people you know.”

MOST ALL of them are.  But the ones who aren’t?  Became atheists because of me and the things I showed them in the bible. Two recently come to mind right off the bat! One even told her mom who just argued the point.  Whatever, you can’t win them all. 

Even my mother and father had a certain respect for my way of argument—but they’re the type who willfully, and I might add, fearfully, choose to believe.  My father’s exact words to me were: Well, babe, you put up a great argument for atheism, but I’m just going to believe anyway”.  I let him be with that because he’s 80 and maybe he needs it.  But don’t think for one second I can’t debunk the STRONGEST of Christians with their own book.

Now, you do things your way and then tell me how many people you’ve helped to enlighten through reason, and let me do things MY way.  I have seen that they DO work.  And even if people don’t say anything—I believe that it plants the first seeds of doubt.  That’s really all I need. That and a “well you can’t take all of it literally…” and I am IN! booyah!

As for Dawkins and Harris, do you really think Christians, (other than those who wish to use their books to debunk their REASON—and that means quite a few Christian academics) actually buy their books?  Those books are for people like you and I, Harlon.  I don’t know of ONE Christian who bought TGD, Or “Letter to a Christian Nation’ or “The End of Faith”—not ONE.  And I know many.

As far as Dan Barker’s “Losing Faith in Faith”—it would have more of an impact if a faithie DID buy it.  But first they’d have to get to know him through FFRF.  *shrug*  Most don’t even know who he is.  Shame.

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By Harlon57, May 8, 2007 at 2:13 pm Link to this comment

Annie,
You said: “Most all of my friends to this day are Christian, Harlon and not ONE of them knows how the Judeo-Christian belief ties into the OT—nor do they care.”

So in your own life, with your own friends, you have that little impact that not ONE of them knows or cares.

That proves that your tactics are ineffectual.  You can’t even influence people you know.

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By Annie Reitano, May 8, 2007 at 1:42 pm Link to this comment

#68809 by Harlon57 on 5/08 at 12:13 pm
(36 comments total)

“Annie, messenger is a troll.  He puts forth a couple of quickly copied lines to make you work. Then sits back and laughs.”

How do you know that he sits back and laughs?  Maybe he’s cocking his rifle. 

“The god delusion was a book about god, and Dawkins did cite revealing passages.  But watch him in lectures and debates. He does not use that tactic.  I’ve searched out and watched just about everything I can find on Dawkins.  He doesn’t fall back on scripture when he is toe to toe.  He uses reason, logic and science.”

Do you think he would be able to use reason and science to debunk religions without first understanding them thoroughly?  I disagree with you completely!  I KNOW he knows the three Abrahamic religions inside and out and I have watched him debate the faithies.  And often he uses their own words against them as in the case of Liberty University in Virginia.  Maybe you feel reason is enough for you.  It’s not enough for me because as you have stated regarding Daniel Dennett, the need to LEARN to reason. 

“I get the sense that this mission you are on includes much time spent studying a worthless text in the hope that some feeble person will have a moment of clarity.  You seem to think that all god botherers are beneath you, that they just can’t see or don’t know what is in their bible.”

I have the experience on this one Harlon.  And I am dead right that most DON’T know what’s in their bible, they read the parts that are easy, study the parts that have to do with their life and don’t know fuck all about the rest.  Most all of my friends to this day are Christian,  Harlon and not ONE of them knows how the Judeo-Christian belief ties into the OT—nor do they care.  And you have less faith in the ability of people to find clarity than I do.  There wouldn’t be any Dan Barkers in the world if we just assume that every faith head is a lost cause.  I refuse that line of thinking. 

“I disagree.  Daniel Dennet believes they are allowing themselves to fall back to the position that comforts them, and that the way for them to see the truth is to learn to reason.  That once they learn to reason well, that they will pull themselves out of the delusion.  I’ll stick with that.”

And whose going to show them out of that delusion without knowing the scriptures?  You tell me that.

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By Harlon57, May 8, 2007 at 1:18 pm Link to this comment

Annie, I guess another way of putting it is that it isn’t that the faithful don’t see the inconsistencies, many of them readily admit them.

The problem is that they don’t realize that by accepting faith they have eliminated reason. It is unreasonable to accept the bible and its’ teachings on faith.  That’s where the disconnect occurs.

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By Harlon57, May 8, 2007 at 1:13 pm Link to this comment

Annie, messenger is a troll.  He puts forth a couple of quickly copied lines to make you work. Then sits back and laughs.

The god delusion was a book about god, and Dawkins did cite revealing passages.  But watch him in lectures and debates. He does not use that tactic.  I’ve searched out and watched just about everything I can find on Dawkins.  He doesn’t fall back on scripture when he is toe to toe.  He uses reason, logic and science.

I get the sense that this mission you are on includes much time spent studying a worthless text in the hope that some feeble person will have a moment of clarity.  You seem to think that all god botherers are beneath you, that they just can’t see or don’t know what is in their bible.

I disagree.  Daniel Dennet believes they are allowing themselves to fall back to the position that comforts them, and that the way for them to see the truth is to learn to reason.  That once they learn to reason well, that they will pull themselves out of the delusion.  I’ll stick with that.

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By Annie Reitano, May 8, 2007 at 9:33 am Link to this comment

#68743 by The Messenger on 5/08 at 3:41 am
(Unregistered commenter)

“Jesus said:

It is not the healthy that need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means. I desire mercy, not sacrifice. For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.  Matthew 9: 12,13 NIV”

And then when the sinners came, he said- “woe to you, teachers of the Law and Pharisees, you hipocrits!  You are like whitewashed tombs.  You are beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean! Matthew 23:27

Matthew 23:29 Jesus curses the “sinners” again: Woe to you teachers of the law, and pharisees, you hipocrites!

Matthew 23:39 Jesus continues berating them: ” You snakes!  You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Also taken from the book of Matthew NIV version.
So much for Jesus coming to be a doctor to them.  Looks more like he was buddy-buddy with those who had faith in HIM (megalomaniac) and couldn’t really care less about anyone who questioned his authority.

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By The Messenger, May 8, 2007 at 4:41 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Jesus said:

It is not the healthy that need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means. I desire mercy, not sacrifice. For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.  Matthew 9: 12,13 NIV

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By Annie Reitano, May 8, 2007 at 1:05 am Link to this comment

I just see it differently.  I see it as them conceding to my beliefs by spouting hatred.  It’s taught in every “holy” book—and faithheads show it to be so when that’s all they can do.

Messenger, for example, he can spew verses but he could never spew ONE that I couldn’t counter with his very own book.  Because every page—literally—contradicts itself.  It was written by men for men of it’s time.  And anyone who can’t see it, needs me or someone like me, to show them.  Why do you think Messenger doesn’t want to “talk with me” anymore?  Because he can’t take the heat.

You can use your own thoughts if you want.  But you will see that the bible or talmud or whatever will just be thrown back at you.  When you learn to fight them with their own book, you win.  I use fire to fight fire.  It just works for me, and those ARE my thoughts on that book.  I had doubts for many years and have studied.  Dawkins and Harris didn’t just come up with all these thoughts.  Some, yes.  But Dawkins quotes other people quite often and he sure as hell used the Bible and Qur’an in TGD.  It’s the perfect way to show people what they’re doing.  Because the newsflash is, most Christians can’t put up a good debate because they don’t even know what is really in that book, behind it historically, or why they even buy into it in the first place.  Like little kids, they have to be shown.

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By Harlon57, May 7, 2007 at 11:26 pm Link to this comment

Annie, when they attack your character, they exhibit a lack of human decency, and a lack of intellect.

Falling back on bible verses may shield you from personal attack, but does nothing to show them what it is to have independent thought. Something they sorely lack. 

They have no shortage of biblical sparring, they have a lack of independent thought.  Teach them what it is to think for themselves.

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