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Israel Crackdown Puts Liberal Jews on the Spot

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Posted on Mar 15, 2010
AP / Muhammed Muheisen

Israeli soldiers take position next to the highly controversial security barrier, which has been used, critics say, to seize Palestinian land and manipulate the population.

By Chris Hedges

The Israeli government, its brutal war crimes in Gaza exposed in detail in the U.N. report by Justice Richard Goldstone, has implemented a series of draconian measures to silence and discredit dissidents, leading intellectuals and human rights organizations inside and outside Israel that are accused—often falsely—of assisting Goldstone’s U.N. investigators. The government of Benjamin Netanyahu is attempting to shut down Israel’s premier human rights organizations, including B’Tselem, the New Israel Fund (NIF) and the Association for Civil Rights in Israel. It is busy expelling or excluding peace activists and foreign nationals from the Palestinian territories. The campaign, if left unchecked, will be as catastrophic for Palestinians as it will be for Israel.

The Goldstone report, which is over 500 pages, investigated Israel’s 22-day air and ground assault on Gaza that took place from Dec. 27, 2008, to Jan. 18, 2009. The United Nations and the European Parliament have endorsed the report. The report found that Israel used disproportionate military force against Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip while failing to take adequate precautions to protect the civilian population against the military assault. The Israeli attack killed 1,434 people, including 960 civilians, according to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights. More than 6,000 homes were destroyed or damaged, leaving behind some $3 billion in destruction in one of the poorest areas on Earth. No Israelis were killed by Hamas rockets fired into Israel during the assault. The report did not limit itself to the 22-day attack; rather, it went on to indict the occupation itself. It examines the beginning of the occupation and condemns Israel for the border closures, the blockade and for the wall or security barrier in the West Bank. It has two references to the right of return, investigates Israeli torture and criticizes the willful destruction of the Palestinian economy.


“The impact of the Goldstone report is tremendous,” the Middle East scholar Norman Finkelstein said when I reached him in New York. “It marks and catalyzes the breakup of the Diaspora Jewish support for Israel because Goldstone is the classical Diaspora Jew. He is a lawyer and upholder of human rights and a liberal. He has distinguished himself in the field of law and he is also a lover of Zion. He calls himself a Zionist. His mother was an activist in the Zionist movement. His daughter did aliyah. He sits on the board of governors of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. He has an honorary degree from the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. He has said over and over again that he is a Zionist. He believes Jews have a right to a state in Palestine. His is a mostly emblematic profile of the classically liberal Jew.”

Liberal has a distinct connotation,” Finkelstein went on. “It means to believe in the rule of law. It means to believe in international institutions. It means to believe in human rights. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are liberal organizations. What the Goldstone phenomenon registers and catalyzes is the fact that it is impossible to reconcile liberal convictions with Israel’s conduct; too much is now known about the history of the conflict and the human rights record and the so-called peace process. It is impossible to be both liberal and defend Israeli policy. That was the conflict that confronted Goldstone. I very much doubt he wanted to condemn Israel.”

“Israeli liberalism always had a function in Israeli society,” said Finkelstein, whose new book, “This Time We Went Too Far,” examines the Israeli attack a year ago on Gaza. “When I talk about liberals I mean people like A.B. Yehoshua, David Grossman and Amos Oz. Their function was to issue these anguished criticisms of Israel which not only extenuated Israeli crimes but exalted Israeli crimes. ‘Isn’t it beautiful, the Israeli soul, how it is anguished over what it has done.’ It is the classic case of having your cake and eating it. Not only were any crimes being committed extenuated, but they were beautiful. And now something strange happened. Along comes a Jewish liberal and he says, ‘Spare me your tears. I am only interested in the law.’ ”

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“Goldstone did not perform the role of the Jewish liberal,” Finkelstein said, “which is to be anguished, but no consequences. And all of a sudden Israeli liberal Jews are discovering, hey, there are consequences for committing war crimes. You don’t just get to walk into the sunset and look beautiful. They can’t believe it. They are genuinely shocked. ‘Aren’t our tears consequences enough?’ Aren’t our long eyes and broken hearts consequences enough?’ ‘No,” he said, ‘you have to go to the criminal court.’ ”

The campaign against Israeli dissidents has taken the form of venomous denunciations of activists and jurists, including Justice Goldstone. It includes a bill before the Israeli parliament, the Knesset, which will make it possible to imprison the leaders of Israeli human rights groups if they fail to comply with crippling new registration conditions. Human rights activists from outside Israel who work in the Palestinian territories are being rounded up and deported. The government is refusing to issue work visas to employees of 150 NGOs operating in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, including Oxfam, Save the Children and Médecins Sans Frontières (Doctors Without Borders). The new tourist visas effectively bar these employees from Palestinian territory under Israeli occupation. Professor Naomi Chazan, the Israeli head of the NIF, which has donors in the United States, is being publicly vilified by ultranationalist groups such as Im Tirzu.  Foreign donors to the NIF, as well as other human rights groups, are being pressured by Israeli officials to halt contributions. Billboards have sprouted up around Tel Aviv and Jerusalem with a grotesque caricature of Chazan, who has been branded by groups such as Im Tirzu as an agent for Hamas and Iran, with a horn growing from her forehead. “Naomi-Goldstone-Chazan” the caption on the billboard reads. Im Tirzu, the front organization behind many of the attacks, includes among its financial backers the John Hagee Ministries and the New York Central Fund, which also support extremist settler organizations.


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By tman, March 17, 2010 at 2:07 pm Link to this comment

The number one terrorist country in the world is Israel, followed by the U.S. and the U.K. The obvious solution is for the people of these countries to vote their present government out of office and elect the people they that will govern accordingly to their wishes. The biggest obstacle in the U.S. is a Zionist controlled president and a hand picked Zionist cabinet presented to our President when he was elected and a Zionist controlled congress.

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By firefly, March 17, 2010 at 1:47 pm Link to this comment

Bobadi,

I think you are confusing me with someone else as I completely and steadfastly have disagreed with John Ellis’ posts and mostly supported Shingo’s.

I have NEVER suggested “supporting the Zionist regime as you seem to suggest”. In fact, please read my last post which would show you that my sympathies lie squarely with the persecuted Palestinian people.

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By walterbard, March 17, 2010 at 1:43 pm Link to this comment

To Firefly.
Since your comments are intelligent and well-intentioned they deserve a serious reply

Yes Israel is a Jewish state. That is its basic premise. The history of the Jewish people
is quite different from the people in United States. Since the diaspora the Jews were
always a minority in every country. This made them subject to the political whims
in these countries. The Jews lost Israel in the first century because they were one of the
few people to stand up against Roman tyranny. But there were always Jews living there, and culturally the identification with Israel was never lost. Why do all the so-called
liberals rail against a Jewish state and say nothing about the Islamic States surrounding Israel, especially since those Islamic States have persecuted not only Jews (see my previous posts) but also Christians and any other religion. While Israel is scrupulously examined for any civil rights violations, the wholesale atrocities committed in many Moslem countries
are largely ignored.  Just look at the disgustingly biased article of Hedges. The population of of Israel is twenty percent Moslem. And these Moslems are full citizens of Israel, allowed to vote and have representatives in the Knesset. Compare that with the treatment of Jews and other non Moslems in most Arab countries. Are Arabs discriminated against in Israel. Yes. And it’s getting worse. But that’s due to the constant tension.  You talk about desecration of Moslem Holy sites. Yes it happens, but why don’t you complain about the destruction of many many Jewish sites by Moslems . Such as the recent destruction of Tomb of Joseph and all the synagogues in East Jerusalem when Jordan took it over in 1949. Or the synagogues in Gaza after Israel withdrew.  From 1949 to 1967 access to the Western Wall, the holiest site in Judaism was denied by Jordan. The United Nations said not a word. All the so-called human rights activists said nothing. When Israel liberated East Jerusalem they could have closed or destroyed the Dome of the Rock,especially since it’s over the site of the second temple. But Israel let the Moslems keep that site. Their thanks, the Grand Mufti claims the Jews never were in israel
and the Western wall was built by moslems
I can’t debunk all the libels against Israel; there are so many. No, Israel is not perfect.
Yes, there is much that’s unjust in Israel. the same can be said about America or any other country. But the vehemence and one-sidedness of the criticism as demonstrated by Hedges and his ilk clearly indicates that a great deal of this criticism is a euphemism for antisemitism.
Hamas can put on children’s show with someone dressed in a Mickey Mouse suit carrying a rifle and exhorting children to kill all the Jews (there’s an actual tape of this)
and all the so-called peace and human rights activists say nothing.
Enough said

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By Bobadi, March 17, 2010 at 1:12 pm Link to this comment

Great debate.. Kudos to Shingo.

Firefly and John Ellis, why do you suppose that oil is the fundamental reason for the US support of the Zionist regime in Israel?
Would it not be more conducive to appease the oil rich Muslim nations, then to forever effect turmoil and strife, hatred and animosity towards us? Is this not counterproductive? Does this not produce the destabilization of regimes that favor us with their oil?

I see no “up” side in supporting the Zionist regime as you seem to suggest, unless it is to protect arms makers profits, trade of oil for weapons, and the entirety of that self supporting complex, so perhaps you do have something here.

I do see a US media that is concerned primarily with its ratings and commercial success, which has made it a near complete as a propaganda machine for Zionist regime, along with some of our people’s dual citizenship/loyalties to Zionist Israel such as the current White House Chef of Staff who supports the Zionist lobby and its large political contributions to our politicians which is a swinging bat hitting the US people again and again as a pinata showering down on Zionists with our dead soldiers and massively now, in the trillions of dollars, our monies as severe debt, all lost in suppressing Muslim rage.

I see my country the US constantly producing that “there are unbreakable bonds between Israel and the US” as I just heard Clinton expressing in apology to her outrage over Israel’s latest insult. 

Where are these “bonds” written into our Constitution? Who made these “bonds” “unbreakable?”

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By walterbard, March 17, 2010 at 11:39 am Link to this comment

To John Ellis and truthdigger (or is it shit kicker)

Thank you John Ellis for your reply. It shows what
a bigoted idiot you are. I won’t waste anymore time.
Your comments speak for themselves

To Truthdigger. Sesame street would be a good place to start learning how to read.

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By maninwarren, March 17, 2010 at 11:30 am Link to this comment

“Israel attacked Gaza to restore what it called its
deterrence capacity, its ability to terrorize the
Arab world into submission,” Finkelstein said. “But
it actually diminished its deterrence capacity
because it can’t attack. If they were to attack now,
anywhere, all hell would break loose and they
wouldn’t get sympathy.”

It CAN’T attack? Oh, yeah, sure.  Because so many
imperialist crimes—from the invasion of Iraq to
the torture to Bagram to Gaza—have forced the
world to stop and take notice and punish the
criminals responsible.  What’s this guy smokin’?

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By firefly, March 17, 2010 at 11:28 am Link to this comment

walterbard,

There seems to be a continuous debate over who were the original inhabitants of the Palestinian territories, as if somehow proving that Jews had a greater ‘right’ to the land, justifies the persecution and the expulsion of the current Palestinians from their homes and land in order to make room for more Jewish settlers.

Israel, like the US, is a land of immigrants, but unlike the US, it has set itself up as a Jewish State (a bit like Iran’s Islamic State), NOT a multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-religious state which would be truly democratic. Because Arabs are not Jewish, they are automatically discriminated against on the basis that they can never be Jews and therefore will never be truly welcome in a Jewish State. So Israel has the dilemma of what may ironically be seen as “the Arab problem” (with seriously creepy similarities to the Nazi’s ‘Jewish problem’).

Michael Ratner, President of the Center for Constitutional Rights told Amy Goodman on DemocracyNow that: “Families defending the twelfth century Ma’man Allah or Mamilla Cemetery from desecration by Israeli authorities recently filed their case before the UN, with news conferences in Geneva, Los Angeles and Jerusalem. The petitioners include descendants from fifteen of the oldest families in Jerusalem whose ancestors have been buried at the cemetery for centuries. People who fought with Saladin in the Crusades are buried there. In fact, one of the descendants of one of the leading figures in the twelfth century is buried in that cemetery.

Ratner says that he was really shocked by what he saw in West Jerusalem: “I saw a wall that’s probably thirty feet high, surrounded by surveillance cameras, which is where they’re building this so-called Museum of Tolerance. Right up to the edge of it, you see Muslim graves. And within even the part of the cemetery that still exists, which is only a few acres, because the Israelis have paved over other parts, it’s been desecrated. And every time Palestinians attempt to fix it, it’s desecrated again. Within the site itself, the chief archaeologist for the Israeli Archaeological Authority, called this an archaeological crime. An Israeli archaeologist! The authorities took out bones in cardboard boxes, relatives of the descendants of the people on the petition. The Museum of Tolerance is an extension of the museum that exists in Los Angeles. Its pretty grotesque, to be building something that’s labeled a museum of tolerance against the protests of the people buried in the cemetery. It is the oldest Muslim cemetery in all of Palestine. It may go back to the seventh century, but it certainly goes back to the twelfth century.”

Ratner and the petitioners believe that this land should be treated as a Heritage site. The fact that it’s still being desecrated is a scandal and this monstrous project must be stopped. “As Palestinians have been continuously pushed out of Jerusalem and parts of the West Bank, what I saw is a concealed attempt to obliterate the Muslim presence in West Jerusalem by getting rid of key cultural sites and artifacts of Muslim people. It’s hard to believe this is the Simon Wiesenthal Center doing this. International law clearly protects this land. It protects cultural artifacts. It protects religious freedom, it protects sacred sites. Israel has an obligation, to protect sacred sites in Jerusalem. Up ’til 2008 they protected 136 Jewish sites. Not one Muslim or Christian site.”

I ask anyone with a conscience whether this is morally right.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, March 17, 2010 at 11:00 am Link to this comment

By RdV, March 17 at 1:29 pm #

“If it wasn’t for a handful of pathetic rockets, they would be complaining about kids throwing stones.

~~~~~~~~~~~~


RDV…Its Israeli “Jail/Prison Time” for Palestinian kids for throwing stones at their BRUTAL IDF occupiers

****

Jail ordeal of hundreds of Palestinian children arrested for throwing stones

03.14.2010 | The Guardian

”“Rights groups express concern at the rising number of juveniles as young as 12 who are held behind bars and ‘treated like terrorists’

With more than 300 Palestinian children being held in Israeli prisons, human rights groups and Palestinian officials are increasingly concerned about the actions of the Israeli military.

The Israeli group B’Tselem said that security forces had “severely violated” the rights of a number of children, aged between 12 and 15, who had been taken into custody in recent months.

The family of one 13-year-old boy from Hebron who was arrested on 27 February by a military patrol and detained for eight days have brought a legal case against the authorities. The teenager, Al-Hasan Muhtaseb, described how he had been interrogated without a lawyer late into the night, forced to confess to throwing stones, made to sign a confession in Hebrew that he couldn’t read, jailed with adults and brought before a military court. He was only released on bail eight days later, after considerable legal effort by several human rights groups. As he had signed a confession, he still faces a possible indictment for throwing stones – a charge that usually brings several months in jail but carries a maximum penalty of 20 years’ jail.

Although most international attention focuses on diplomatic sparring in the Middle East, it is cases such as this teenager’s arrest that are the reality for Palestinians living under Israeli military occupation. The surprise about the teenager’s experience is not that it is exceptional, but that it is a common occurrence.

As of the end of February, 343 Palestinian children were being held in Israeli prisons, according to Defence for Children International (DCI), which took up the Muhtaseb case. Israel routinely prosecutes Palestinian children as young as 12 and the Israeli legal system treats Palestinians as adults when they turn 16, but Israelis become adults only at 18. Ill-treatment and torture of Palestinian children are “widespread, systematic and institutionalised”, DCI said in a report last year.

Al-Hasan Muhtaseb was arrested early in the afternoon as he and his 10-year-old brother Amir were walking home through Hebron, in the occupied West Bank, after visiting their aunt.

“Two soldiers came to us and told us: ‘Come over here.’ We went to them,” said Al-Hasan, a slight boy, neatly dressed, who barely looks his 13 years. “They took my brother and I don’t know where they took him. I was sent inside the station and I never saw him after that.”

They were detained separately. Amir was released later that night, deeply traumatised. “He was in a very, very bad psychological state,” said his father, Fadel Muhtaseb, 45. “He had wet himself. He was terrified.” The boy said he had been held with his eyes covered by a hat in a room where there was also a dog, which he could hear panting.

Al-Hasan was interrogated at an Israeli military post in Kiryat Arba, a Jewish settlement in Hebron. “I was asked: ‘Did you throw stones? Did you hurt the soldiers or hit their vehicles? How close were you to the soldiers? Why were you throwing stones?’,” he said. Eventually he had admitted throwing stones, although in an interview last week Al-Hasan said it was untrue: on that day he had not thrown stones, although earlier in the week he had.””

~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/packed-manhattan-banquet-honors-extraordinary-courage-under-fire-of-idf-soldiers/

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By truedigger3, March 17, 2010 at 10:57 am Link to this comment

Re:By walterbard, March 17 at 12:23 pm #

All what you said are lies and is not true.
Palestine was always inhabited and not just when the British were there? Is that make sense.??!!
And if that make you feel better, those Arabs in Palestine are nothing but jews who stayed and converted to Christianity or the Muslim religion and they and the rest of the area acquired the Arab culture and language. Read history, that is if you are REALLY interested in the facts.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, March 17, 2010 at 10:49 am Link to this comment

“Considering Israel has one of the world’s largest militaries(including nukes)—which they use without restraint- to hear the whining about a couple of homemade rockets is like the brutal slave master complaining he was the victim when the slaves rise up.”

Rdv, just the other day I heard Isreal not Israel nuked the Philistines for mooning the great wall.

This nuke for each rocket has gone way to far, it should be one nuke equals three and half homemade rockets plus 20 percent discount for bad aim.

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By truedigger3, March 17, 2010 at 10:44 am Link to this comment

Re:By Shenonymous, March 17 at 11:55 am #

China is nothing but a huge sweat shop for the trans-national corporations.
China has its best interests are served if the US economy is vibrant and there is a ready market for manufactured products.!
The US will be more than happy if the Chinese get all the oil they need for energy to manufacture products for the US corporations.!
China has almost a trillion Dollars worth of US Treasury Bonds nominated in Dollars. So China will always support the Dolllar and not fight the Dollar.
These are the facts, and anything else is fear mongering for special agendas and blaming the Chinese for the sins of Wall St. and the US corporations. Got it Ms. establishment’s “good” girl??!!
,

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By RdV, March 17, 2010 at 10:29 am Link to this comment

Considering Israel has one of the world’s largest militaries(including nukes)—which they use without restraint- to hear the whining about a couple of homemade rockets is like the brutal slave master complaining he was the victim when the slaves rise up. How come it is always about Israel’s right to defend itself—but the Palestinians don’t have that right. If it wasn’t for a handful of pathetic rockets, they would be complaining about kids throwing stones.

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By vonbargen, March 17, 2010 at 10:06 am Link to this comment

The responses from the Diaspora are so predictable and stale. Pointing out Israeli excesses creates an instant avalanche of ancient tales of Arab crimes and references to the specter of the other Muslim states’ often barbaric practices.  As Hedges points out, Lord Goldstone did what so many of these responders don’t do: he examined the conduct of both sides and reported on it solely from a legal perspective. It must have caused him pain to write the report and now his brethren are causing him still more pain.

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By omop, March 17, 2010 at 9:53 am Link to this comment

Now is this really the best way for the ONLY DEMOCRACY AND OUR ONLY ALLY
IN THE MIDDLE EAST to spread the faith?

  Headlines.

Israeli women protest against sex segregation in Jewish buses


Protesters object to forcing women to sit in back seats in ultra-Orthodox
Jewish buses.


JERUSALEM - Hundreds of Israelis staged a protest on Saturday against gender
discrimination on some bus routes in ultra-Orthodox Jewish neighbourhoods,
where women are forced to sit at the back for religious reasons.

Around 1,000 men and women gathered outside the Jerusalem home of
hardline Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, holding up placards reading
“Democracy, not theocracy,” a media correspondent said.

Opposition leader Tzipi Livni sent the protesters a message of support, saying
that “those who relegate women to the back of the bus consign them to the
edge of society.”

On some bus routes through ultra-Orthodox Jewish neighbourhoods of the
holy city, women are forced to sit at the rear of the vehicles while men are
allowed in the front.

Sunday’s protest was organised by a coalition of feminist groups who consider
that gender separation discriminates against women and reinforces religious
coercion.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, March 17, 2010 at 9:52 am Link to this comment

Norman Finkelstein in Prag, 22.2.10

Norman Finkelstein speaks on the “So called COMPLICATED??? Israeli / Palestinian conflict”


Click on link to watch video(s) of lecture/speech with a question/answer session. See for yourself on who is making this conflict look complicated…the so called peace process…borders…history…etc…:

http://www.youtube.com/petermfb#p/u

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By Shenonymous, March 17, 2010 at 9:37 am Link to this comment

GRYM, you are perceptive.  It is quite lopsided here on this forum that
the Israelis are blamed completely but the Palestinians assume no
responsibility.  History is conveniently forgotten or rewritten to
provide a hallucination of no culpability on the side of the Arabs.  A
clever strategy you must admit.  Reality can be painful.  Especially if
cookies are too hard to bite without breaking a tooth and rockets fall in
your children’s bed.

The consequences of war is never intuited by those who have not been
in line of fire.  That Israel and Israelis have a great deal of strength is
in the history books.  That they should have superior weaponry ought
not to be surprising, given the accusation that they get their weapons
from the Western coalition.  But Israel is still a very small country, a fact
always ignored.

There is selective amnesia when it comes to what happened to the
Palestinians that migrated to Lebanon and Jordan.  Let us call it human
displacement and the quality of treatment they receive.

Palestinian refugees moved to Lebanon in the 1970s after the events of
Black September in Jordan and/or because of the civil war in Lebanon
and did not consider it necessary at the time to register themselves.
However, after the PLO political military infrastructure in Lebanon was
disbanded and the redeployment of the Lebanese security over
Lebanon, their lack of documentation became a prominent issue. These
refugees are residing in Lebanon without papers, and thus cannot
access education, work, health or travel etc. Some of these refugees
are actually registered with the United Nations Relief and Works Agency
for Palestinian (UNRWA) in other fields of operation (UNRWA, ‘The Latest
Developments in the Living Conditions of Palestine Refugees in
Lebanon’, 2006).  The numbers do not accurately represent the number
of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, since many refugees registered with
UNRWA reside in other countries. It is estimated, that the number of
Palestinian refugees actually residing in Lebanon to be around 250,000. 
Such is the help Palestinians receive from their brethren.  As I already
noted here and on a forum a long time ago, Palestinians are not high
on the hierarchy of the Arab nations.  Like they are on the bottom. 
They are used as pawns in the political game of the Middle East.

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By walterbard, March 17, 2010 at 9:23 am Link to this comment

To Johm Ellis

In 1900 what was called Palestine was ruled by the Ottoman Empire. No reliable census was ever taken under the Turks. The census was linked to taxation
and all ethnic groups avoided being counted. Many turks who lived that area went back to Turkey after WW1. There was a great influx of arabs into what would become Israel during the British Mandate. The British allowed Arabs in but blocked Jewish immigration which would have been significant if they were allowed in. Especially since starting in 1922 there were waves of
antisemitic pograms in all Arab countries that didn’t cease until 1967 when just about
Misrachi Jews were forced out of Arab countries. If any ethnic cleansing was going on
it was done by the Arabs. About 850,000 Jews were expelled and 600,000settled in Israel.
About 300,000 Arabs remained in Israel after its war of independence. THEY WERE MADE
FULL CITIZENS OF ISRAEL. does that sound like Ethnic cleansing? The so-called
Those Palestinians who left after Israel’s liberation and went to Lebanon were confined to
refugee camps and subject to apartheid not by Israel but by their own Arab bretheren.
Of Those who went to Jordan some were confined to refugee camps and others were made
Jordanian citizens, at least on paper.
Your comments about terror are simply wrong, stupidly wrong. If you want to read about terror look up what happened to the Jews in Hebron in April 1929 and in Jerusalem after Jordan took it
over. You’re on the same level as Hedges in your bias and stupidity.

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By firefly, March 17, 2010 at 9:12 am Link to this comment

Leefeller,

You ask: “Home made rockets, are they anything like home made cookies?”

You said: “I remember the rockets coming in when I was in Vietnam, they were not accurate, but they were deadly.”

So I guess the answer is no. Home made cookies aren’t (usually) deadly.

Rockets are occasionally deadly, but not as deadly as US made bombs and missiles.

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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, March 17, 2010 at 9:09 am Link to this comment

Atrocities take place from both sides.  The battles of Arab against Jew is centuries old.  Not fully understanding this takes every current event out of all context.

-

Some choose to make this an issue of the evil Jewish people or the Jewish state. - If the sun fails to rise from the West the Israelis are to blame. 

I will point out again that the West Bank and Gaza is surrounded by some of the richest nations on earth.  Arab nations that claim to hold the Palestinian in high regard.  The same Arab nations that do next to nothing to help the Palestinian people out of their horrible poverty.  The same Arab nations which refuse to allow Palestinians to emigrate to Arab lands (a collective regional policy which keeps the Palestinians where they’re at). The same nations that refuse to build schools, build commerce, build sewage, power plants and hospitals.

It is the Arab nations who willingly choose to keep Brother Arabs in abject poverty in order to be a useful foil to the hated Jewish state which, they all agree, must be destroyed.

-

Does Israel, at times, go too far?  Yes of course.  It’s what happens when human beings are surrounded on all sides by people attempting to kill them.  It is to be expected and it will continue.

-

Food for thought regarding the evil Jewish State:

An Arab man or woman can cross into Israel every day in order to work.  That same man or woman can walk the streets, shop in the markets and even attend classes.  No one will molest them.  But a Jew crossing into Gaza will quickly find themselves without a head. 

Cutting off a head simply for walking the streets seems, at least to most human beings not sicked by blinding hatred, to go too far.

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By Shenonymous, March 17, 2010 at 8:55 am Link to this comment

Real facts are interesting phenomena.  Facts can be used as one can
cleverly use them.  Fact is:  Not an insignificant force in the world,
China imports 60% of its oil, most of it from the Middle East and
Russia.  Can you imagine how much oil China is using?  It is beyond
your comprehension I assure you.  Furthermore, China has oil
production concessions in Iraq, that was blocked by the US until 2009. 
Also, since 2008, China has had an $8billion dollar agreement with
Iran to develop refining capacity and gas resources in that country.  It
also has oil deals in Sudan where interestingly enough has been
substituted for US interests.  Nothing is as it seems and when truth is
sought, ALL of the truth ought to be sought. 

While Brazil has shown interest in collaborating in non-dollar oil
payments, along with India, China appears to be the most enthusiastic
of all the financial powers involved, not least because of its enormous
trade with the Middle East.

Make no mistake, the decline of American economic power is
inextricably linked to the current global recession which has implicitly
been acknowledged by the World Bank president Robert Zoellick.  All
that notwithstanding, he goes on to say, “it is China’s extraordinary
new financial power – along with past anger among oil-producing and
oil-consuming nations at America’s power to interfere in the
international financial system.”

So, yes, trading war materials for Middle East oil is a super big money
maker for the Middle East and its agile acquisition of armaments.

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By Leefeller, March 17, 2010 at 8:18 am Link to this comment

Home made rockets, are they anything like home made cookies?

It is all madness, and I know Israel has not been positive in its handling or actions and it seems they do not want peace. 

My comment was only to say rockets are not cookies and pie.

Shingles your comment to my post emulates Go Right Young Man, who I have had opportunity to observe on other posts, he also seems to enjoy a song and dance routine, taking everyone down a yellow brick road, always different from the subject or comment.

Red Herrings an abundant commodity of hucksters and politicians and it seems some posters.

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By firefly, March 17, 2010 at 7:51 am Link to this comment

Both Leefeller and Go Right Young Man should understand the majority of homemade rockets launched do not cause much damage let alone death. Nonetheless, I do not excuse the use of rockets on innocent (?) settlers.

But there is a bigger picture here. The Palestinians are not only imprisoned in the world’s longest existing concentration camp with no freedom (a word the US likes to promote) to come and go, they have to face humiliating check points which no westerner would ever tolerate today, and are denied the most basic goods (food, medical supplies, building materials which they desperately need after the total destruction of their homes and infrastructure) from coming into the territory.

Their backs are literally up against the wall. What choice do they have? They literally have NO choice but to fight such injustice or expect to have ALL their land stolen.

As Shingo put it very eloquently, Israel is an occupier. In other words, it has the CHOICE to withdraw from the occupied the land. Hamas and other occupation resistance movements in Palestine are no different from the French Resistance Army fighting Nazi occupation in France. They too did some nasty things (I believe it’s called collateral damage when done by the US), but they, like the Palestinians, were fighting a much bigger and more powerful giant – the Nazis. The Nazis called the French Resistance, terrorists, we called them Freedom Fighters with the right to defend their land and their homes against a foreign occupier.

Taking on Israel and its insanely powerful Superpower backer, is no easy feat.

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By walterbard, March 17, 2010 at 7:04 am Link to this comment

Hedge’s failure to mention that the so-called brutal attack was in response to deliberate rocket attacks launchedby hamas at the Israseli civilian population for years shows him to be utterly biased.

The following is an excerpt from an Amnesty International

“Since the end of December 2008, during and after the Israeli military offensive which killed some 1,300 Palestinians, most of them civilians, Hamas forces and militias in the Gaza Strip have engaged in a campaign of abductions, deliberate and unlawful killings, torture and death threats against those they accuse of “collaborating” with Israel, as well as opponents and critics”

Clearly this is report that faults Israel for civilian deaths. But unlike Hedges they mention
the atrocities of Hamas. What Hedges conveniently fails to mention is that all witnesses
in Gaza that gave testimony in presence of a Hamas agent. None could speak privately.
With a Hamas agent next to them would they dare tell the truth about Hamas? Hamas deliberately hid behind civilians so they could get publicity from bigots like Hedges
I could go on and on about what’s phony about the Golstone report but it would take volumes.
Hedges is a lousy journalist and a bigot

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By Liquor Store Larry, March 17, 2010 at 6:03 am Link to this comment

Hedges is an anti-Semite who is not capable of seeing this situation clearly. He is a terrorist lover and it is apparent from the posts herein that he brings the Jew haters out of the wood work. I hope some of the people that use phony words like war crimes and occupation have their wives and children murdered by terrorists and then they can sit there and talk in lofty tones about what they would do if they lived adjacent to fanatics who made the Columbian drug cartels look like the Campfire Girls. Hedges is a Nazi.

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By Shenonymous, March 17, 2010 at 5:33 am Link to this comment

Reality check:  omgna! So is that where the caliphs are getting their
sex slaves!? oh my gawd?  Israel?  And here I thought they were
enemies, the Israelis and the A-Rabs.  Didn’t everyone?  We be fooled
again.  Gee and they don’t tell the suicide bombers, either.  January 5,
2009 Associated Press article in net news, More than 70,000 Iranian
student volunteers have registered to carry out suicide bombings
against Israel because of Israel’s assault on the Gaza Strip.
  Isn’t that
a bit excessive?  Someone is making a passel of money on supplying
the dynomight and the special belts and vests.  It’s a real industry. 
Ain’t nobody making it fo’ free.

5 Yups PatrickHennarie-You want all those figures too?  See the same
reports, the wounded are all listed and the numbers are, well there is
only one word, staggering.  But the Western forces’ number of wounded
are boggling as well, which is part of why Bush’s war will continue to
cost this country’s national wealth and Iraq’s for decades to come not
to mention the PTSD cases.  Aside from the Iraqi theater, the wounded
caused by the insurgents counts to astonishing numbers as well.  You
know, no one ever mentions the PTSD problem for the Islamists.  And
what about the non-militant Muslims?  You’d think the psychologists
would be lining up (and their pockets too).  Isn’t that a curiosity?

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 4:36 am Link to this comment

Continued…

My favorite example of Zionists’ concern for their fellow Jews during WWII is the bombing of the SS Patria in Haifa harbor by the Haganah. Apparently these brother’s keepers didn’t like the British plan to send European Jewish refugees to camps in Mauritius for the duration of the war. A couple hundred were killed so the terrorists could make the point that Jewish victims of the Holocaust were better off dead in Eretz Israel, than alive in Mauritius.


Then there was Rabbi Wise.  In 1938, in his capacity as leader of the American Jewish Congress, wrote a letter in which he opposed any change in U.S. immigration laws which would enable Jews to find refuge. He stated: ‘It may interest you to know that some weeks ago the representatives of all the leading Jewish organizations met in conference. …It was decided that no Jewish organization would, at this time, sponsor a bill which would in any way alter the immigration laws.” 


“Yet on the Stratton bill (1944), which would have opened America’s doors to 400,000 displaced persons, the powerful Zionist Washington lobby, otherwise most articulate, was virtually silent.” (Alfred Lilienthal) He then goes on to quote the President of the Zionist Organization of America: ‘I am happy that our movement has finally veered around to the point where we are all, or nearly all, talking about a Jewish state.

That was always classical Zionism….But I ask…are we again, in moments of desperation, going to confuse Zionism with refugeeism, which is likely to defeat Zionism?’ Lilienthal further states “The generous admission of Jewish displaced persons to the U.S. and other countries would have eradicated the necessity for a ‘Jewish state.’ Yet the human flotsam in former concentration camps impressed the Zionists in only two respects: as manpower and as justification for Jewish statehood.”

“Later I learned from someone who ran a displaced persons camp in Germany that the large majority of Jews wanted to go anywhere but Palestine. They were compelled to state Palestine or risk receiving no aid.” (Gabriel Kolko)

Zionism, like colonialism and imperialism, is, in fact, rotten to the core. Exploitation, injustice, denial of the inalienable human rights and dignity of the subject population is built into the system and the ideology which justifies it.

I know this is going to offen you ITW, but any system based upon systemic injustice putrefies all it comes in contact with, including its apologists.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 4:32 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

I never accused you of suggesting it was OK for leaders to lie people into going to war. My issue was that if the Israeli and American public can be tricked/brainwashed into supporting violence, so can Muslism. Shenonymous was trying to argue that there was something inherently wrong with Muslisms because they aren’t proactive enough in reigning in the terrorists.

In the case of the Gaza war, there as some very obvious blolodlust being openly expressed among Israelis.

“You continue to pretend that Israelis ONLY response to having rockets fired at them is to do nothing.”

You are now deliberately conflating what I said.  There was a ceasefire in place in 2008 and on the 4th month Israel broke it.  It was a deliberate incitement to violence on Israel’s part.  That ceasfire could have continued for as long as Israel wanted it to, but it’s no secret that the longer the ceasfire contionued, the more moderate Hamas were being perceived and the greater the prssure on Israel to have to negotiate with Hamas.

Israel’s leaders don’t want this because they can’t push Hamas the way they can Abbas.  One of the aims of the war was to drive a wedge between Hamas and Fatah and weaken an isolated Fatah, who would be more pliant.  Israel have always played this game.  They chose to deal with Arafat after he was isolated follwing Desert Storm.

In 2007, Israel and Washington ordered Abbs to cancel unity talks with Hamas, and instead backed a coup to overthrown Hamas, which failed.
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804

“You quote one report that says that for ONE TIME PERIOD, Hamas held off firing rockets.”

I quoted THE report from the Israeli Intelligence and terrorism Centre.

And for your information, Hamas did hold off other “activities”, because any cactivities would have violated the ceasefire and in Israel’s own words, Hamas were very careful to observe the ceasfire.

“I’M NOT DEFENDING ISRAEL’S EXCESSES IN GAZA!”

The attack on Gaza was much more than excesssive, it was completely unecessary and unprovoked.  How many times must it be repeated ISRAEL BROKE THE CEASEFIRE.  In fact, Israel were in breach of the ceasfire from day one. The terms of the July 2008 agreement was the lifting of the blocakde, which Israel refused to do once the ceasefire began. Do I need to remind you what Israel did the last time it was blockaded?  Do I need to remind you that Israel regard a blockade as an act of war?

“If a guy breaks off your car antenna you have the right to tackle him ...”

Is that what you call the killing of 6 Palestinians?  A broken antenna? Perhas Hamas should have taken the killing of 6 Palestinians on the chin, but you know very well that’s not what Israel would do.

“Of course, you live in the fantasy that nobody has EVER been the aggressor against Israel, including the fairy tale that Egypt and Syria weren’t planning to attack in 1967 and Israel’s pre-emptive strike on THEM was unprovoked.”

I never said Israel have not been attacked.  1948 and 1973 were the 2 occasions when they were, but you only need to ask Menachem Begin, Moshe Dayan and Yitzak Rabin.  They all agree that Israel stated the 1967 war and that Nasser was no threat.

“You even are an apologist for the 1973 Yom Kippur attack on Israel as “justified”.”

No I didn’t.  I said it was a hangover of the 1967 war, which Israel definitely started.

As for your assertion that the US, Britain, Canada and many other nations refused to accept more than a trickle of Jewish refugees, there is more to that than meets the eyes too.

Cotinued…

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By Inherit The Wind, March 17, 2010 at 3:54 am Link to this comment

In fact, your counter argument is pretty weak when you look at it.  You are justifying that the majority of Americans supported the invasion because they were led to believe they were threatened.  According to you,  is that it’s perfectly understandable for the public in the US and Israel to be duped by leaders, but reject the notion that Muslims in the Arab world could be fooled into believing they too fighting for their survival or under attack. 
************************************************

What??? Oh, Come ON, Shingo! I NEVER, EVER said it’s OK for leaders to lie and dupe their people into going to war. There’s NO WAY you can infer that. What I SAID was that IF the people are duped, it’s understandable why “94%” or “98%” support the government. There was no implication that it’s OK for the government to do so, I EXPLICITLY stated the opposite—how Bush lied us into Iraq (and it’s a disaster).

Your mis-read of Leefeller is beneath you.  He related what it was like to be a guy in a situation where people were dropping rockets on his head and his friends were being killed. You went off about how our involvement in Viet Nam was illegal. NO ONE IS DEBATING THAT HERE, INCLUDING LEEFELLER!

You continue to pretend that Israelis ONLY response to having rockets fired at them is to do nothing.  You quote one report that says that for ONE TIME PERIOD, Hamas held off firing rockets.  Did they hold off other “activities” (ie, attacks on Israeli forces and citizens)? No.  I’ve never had rockets fired at me and I’m betting YOU never did either.  Leefeller did.  You have no right to discount his experience because it interferes with your political agenda.

I’M NOT DEFENDING ISRAEL’S EXCESSES IN GAZA!  To carry your analogies further: If a guy breaks off your car antenna you have the right to tackle him and if he gets cut up hitting the ground, too bad. But you don’t have the right to maim him or leave him a quadriplegic.

Of course, you live in the fantasy that nobody has EVER been the aggressor against Israel, including the fairy tale that Egypt and Syria weren’t planning to attack in 1967 and Israel’s pre-emptive strike on THEM was unprovoked.  You even are an apologist for the 1973 Yom Kippur attack on Israel as “justified”.

Cyrena: Israel didn’t MAKE all the trouble. The Arab world used that little strip of land as a pawn to control and manipulate their people for their own selfish ends.  Palestinians could have been WELCOMED into other nations, but, instead, and, ironically, like the Jews in WWII, all the other nations that COULD have accepted them, refused, just as the US, Britain, Canada and many other nations refused to accept more than a trickle of Jewish refugees, which was WHY Israel was created by those Western nations.

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By PatrickHenry, March 17, 2010 at 3:48 am Link to this comment

Body counts are a compilation of the dead of a particular action, they do not count the wounded or those who die of disease as a result of that action.

That number is alot higher.

http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq

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By truedigger3, March 17, 2010 at 2:42 am Link to this comment

Re: By omygodnotagain, March 16 at 11:35 pm #


Excellent insighful post.

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By cyrena, March 17, 2010 at 1:59 am Link to this comment

By rfidler, March 17 at 2:25 am #

This article was posted two days ago and there are already over 100 comments.

Why does Israel, a country of 6 million people, get so many of you so pissed off?

~*~*

Glad you asked that question rfidler. I’ve been asking myself a version of it for years: How is it that a raggedy-ass strip of desert on the Mediterranean with only 6 million people, can manage to create so much havoc and destruction to the rest of the region, and with such enormous hubris and zero accountability? Israel has been engaged in a 60+-year reign of terror that has slaughtered and/or otherwise destroyed at LEAST 6 million lives, but probably far more. In standard logic, it simply does not compute.

I might add that it doesn’t help that multiple billions of US taxpayer dollars have gone to support that effort. That alone could be reason enough for people to be pissed off, even if they don’t give a rat’s ass about the decades of slaughter, or the fact that Israel is immune to the rules of law that the rest of the world is inclined to accept.

That might be part of the reason.

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By rico, suave, March 16, 2010 at 11:25 pm Link to this comment

This article was posted two days ago and there are already over 100 comments.

Why does Israel, a country of 6 million people, get so many of you so pissed off?

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By Shingo, March 16, 2010 at 9:17 pm Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

Taking 10 minutes to read news reports, government reports, reports from HRW and B’Tselem, including the Golstone Report, real facts and statistics, would lift the veil of ignorance on display in your repeated posts.

You of course will astonishingly, admittedly and adamantly refuse.

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By Shingo, March 16, 2010 at 9:13 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller,

With all due respects to you and your service, and I respect your comments in genera, but your post wreaks of irony, while you seem to be oblivious to is. 

Your opening sentence says it all; “when I was in Vietnam”. What was the US doing in Vietnam, other that imposing our will on another country? Tell me Leefeller, when was the last time someone fired a rocket at you while you wee in the US. When was the last time you lost several guys to a direct hit on a bunker just down the road from your house?

Would you consider the presence of foreign troops on US soil to be an attack attack and if you were given the choice between surrendering your freedom to that occupier or firing rockets at them, which one would you chose? 

who woudl be the side defending themselves if you fired that rocket?  You or the occupation troops you aimed that rocket at?

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By Shingo, March 16, 2010 at 9:04 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

The estimation of 650 thousand deaths in Iraq was based on the Lancet 2006 study, which would not have included most of that year.  A British study by the ORB estimate the number sot be 1.2 million in 2008.

“You also are dodging around an obvious point: The people of Israel supported the Gaza invasion because they BELIEVED they were being attacked by rockets from Gaza”

I am not missing that point at all, because what you are alluding to is universal.  Everyone who supports or justifies violence does so based on the perception that they are under attack.  Those who follow Bin Laden believe that the Muslim world is under threat from Western occupation, intervention, manipulation, etc.

In fact, your counter argument is pretty weak when you look at it.  You are justifying that the majority of Americans supported the invasion because they were led to believe they were threatened.  According to you,  is that it’s perfectly understandable for the public in the US and Israel to be duped by leaders, but reject the notion that Muslims in the Arab world could be fooled into believing they too fighting for their survival or under attack. 
This paradox is made all the more blatant given the fact that Muslims in the Arab world have experienced foreign troops on their land aiming guns at them, which is not the case for Israelis or Americans. In fact, Bin Laden’s street cred rose considerably on the back of the US invasion of Iraq, because it buttressed his claim that the West was engaging in a crusade against Islam.

Now assuming that the stories of the rocket attacks were true, is it not relevant what incited the rocket attacks, especially when there was a period of calm over 4 months? Let me put it another way; is a rapist defending himself when in the act of assailing his victim, she uses a key to scratch him, and he resorts to strangling her to avoid losing an eye?

Yes the Israelis had a right to defend themselves.  One way to defend yourself is to avoid picking a fight.  They could have done so by sticking to the ceasefire of 2008 rather than violating it.  They could have accepted Hamas’ proposal to return to a ceasefire in December 14th, which they rejected. 

Tzipi Livni, the so called moderate in the Knesset said in 2008, that a long ceasefire with Hamas was not in Israel’s strategic interests.  Does that sound like the Israeli government were much concerned with defending the public?
There were no rocket attacks between July and November of 2008;  certainly none from Hamas, who actually arrested militants who refused to comply with the ceasefire. 

Israel’s own MFA report stated that “Hamas were very careful to observe the ceasefire and to quell rocket attacks from militants not under their control”.  So given that the Israeli government acknowledged Hamas were being diligent to observe the ceasefire, how does breaking that ceasefire with a November 4th raid on Hamas serve the purpose of defending Israel?

As for the rockets themselves, as I pointed out earlier, they don’t blow up because they don’t carry explosive charges.  They will hurt you if they land on you or debris they dislodge land on you.  Given that of the 8,000 or so rockets Hamas have fired since 2003 have managed to kill barely a dozen Israelis, the exercise of eating a pretzel would probably pose a greater risk.

So to summarize, Israel is definitely entitled to defend itself, as are the Palestinians or any other state, but I reject the default premise that any violence perpetrated by Israel is an act of self defense or that military action carried out in occupied territories is self defense.  In fact, the record shows that Israel’s militarism is almost never a case of self defense.

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By Robert, March 16, 2010 at 9:02 pm Link to this comment

Israeli Apartheid and The Nakba -a new brilliant work by Anthony Lawson

By Gilad Atzmon

“Extract: There can be absolutely no doubt that Israel has created an inhuman, illegal and utterly disgraceful Apartheid state, and the international community will never be able to excuse itself if it takes no action against this blatant, ongoing and in-plain-sight crime against humanity.

Please join the millions of decent people around the world who are crying out against Israel’s ongoing persecution of the Palestinians. Send the link to this video to your elected representative and make sure he or she does something about it. You have to ask yourself: If I keep quiet , will it ever end?”

Posted March 16, 2010


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxxYTJNEZJo

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By omygodnotagain, March 16, 2010 at 8:35 pm Link to this comment

What is a Liberal Jews? Before the State of Israel it was in the interests of Jews living in countries across the globe to promote tolerance, understanding and a cosmopolitan outlook. What has happened since the creation of Israel is that those values have been cast aside.  At the heart of this lies the fact that Israel is not a Liberal Democracy it is a fiercely Nationalistic Militaristic State, with expansionist goals. It was founded on terrorism and violence, is extremely corrupt, from stealing its allies secrets, to being a destination for sex slavery and the illegal sale of body parts. Its recent Prime Minister and Chief of Police have been indicted for corruption, it welcomes and protects known Jewish criminals like those wanted by Russia. To keep a lid on this it uses money, influence and threats to pervert the political processes here in the US and in other countries. Most Jews think of themselves as Liberals and it is their failure to live up to the values they promoted for so long that has led to where we are today. Israel is neither liked nor admired, the constant trumpeting of past sufferings and its victim status, while waging war on its neighbors with the latest weaponry is merely seen as hypocritical. Where once Jews were admired for open minded progressive thinking they are now suspected of lies, distortions and dishonesty.

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By Shenonymous, March 16, 2010 at 8:22 pm Link to this comment

Yes, of course you are right Tao Walker, Our Country.  I offer an
apology.  I am so used to reading Canadians on Truthdig and have
become a bit defensive.  It is not an even minded way to be and I will
work on mastering the concept of equanimity.

Your penchant for twisting reality is not surprising Shingo.  I see you
are the same as you have been, no growth.  It does help you puff
yourself up.  You are of a type.  You make the claim that I am
hypocritical but you do not say exactly how.  Do you think that simply
declaring it is that it is so?  You try to squirm yourself into some
position of… what… superiority?  You are the one declaring the deaths
of over a million are small potatoes, when I said your concerns
were local and were small spuds.  I was pointing out a staggering
imbalance by giving the outrageous numbers of Iraqi deaths, but you
twist my statement to fit your own skewed need.  A Reuters article,
2006, set the number of Iraqi dead at up to 57,452.  Reliability of the
number of dead is not always absolute.  Surely you know that!  Do you
feign ignorance too?  IBC (Iraq Body Count) gives the stat listed in May
2008 up to 90,897.  Please give better figures if you have them, and
please site your sources. Unlike you, I am willing to amend my
understanding with better information.  The IBC report gives very
interesting figures as to who did the killing.  You might check it out if
you are not too lazy.  Just google it.  It also talks about criticism of bias
in reporting.  Ah so it goes.  Nothing really is as it seems.  But at least
IBC admits to possible under or over counting depending on who is
looking.  It is called the margin of error.  So much for casualties in Iraq! 

Nothing exists in a vacuum and the outside influences that you give
notice to have been there for as long as the conflict.  Egypt, Syria,
Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and others, not to mention the
contemporary supplier of weapons, Iran.  The conflict in Gaza could
have been settled a century ago and it is a matter of perspective, and
recorded history, who was there first.  What is so amazing is when one
simply takes a look at the map of the middle east.  The size of Israel is
almost not even seeable and in comparison with the United Arab
Republic is worth laughing at.  If the Palestinians are the oppressed
where has the UAR been for them for all these decades of persecution? 
They could have wiped out Israel in the blink of an eye.  There is more
to this conflict than meets the eye. I’ve read and maybe it isn’t true, but
I read, the Palestinians are not considered among the elite in the Arab
culture.  Were not considered worthy of actually saving, but useful as
political pawns.  If that is wrong, please give evidence that it is.  You
can do that, can’t you?  Please try not to reduce yourself to name-
calling.  Address the claim.

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By Leefeller, March 16, 2010 at 8:21 pm Link to this comment

I remember the rockets coming in when I was in Vietnam, they were not accurate, but they were deadly. When they landed on something or someone it did not win friends.  We had one rocket land 15 yards from us on some stacked up bomb carriers, they turned into shrapnel and the next day we had us a swimming pool sized crater.  That night, we lost several guys to a direct hit on a bunker just down the road.   

Tut tutting the use of rockets seems most disingenuous and even insulting, having been on he receiving end of them.

ITW’s post provided a good accounting of my feelings on this. Attacking someone and not expecting some retaliation seems far fetched. 

I know, just like kids, the other guy always started it! guess we will have to wait and see who will finishes it?

As this article title suggest, liberals being put on the spot, guess the same could be said for the liberals here in the USA with the military option used towards just about everything.

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By Go Right Young Man, March 16, 2010 at 7:54 pm Link to this comment

Taking 10 minutes to “authentically listen”, to real people in the West Bank and Sderot would lift the veil of ignorance on display this day.

Some will astonishingly, admittedly and adamantly refuse.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 16, 2010 at 7:54 pm Link to this comment

TAO Walker, March 16 at 9:46 pm #

By “my country” one supposes Shenonymous means the legal fiction known far-and-wide as “America, U.S.-of”  This Old Indian’s spontaneous affection, “country-wise,” certainly includes but is not limited-to Turtle Island….with a long-time tendency to enjoy roaming the long-grass prairies, mostly afoot but sometimes horseback.

Probably, though, when it come to actual territory and not some mere map, Shenonymous really meant to say she loves OUR Country….which she’s surely welcome to do.

HokaHey!
**********************************************

Let’s drop the fiction. While the conquering of this land the Europeans committed horrible atrocities and true genocide, but it wasn’t MY ancestors—they were still struggling back in shtetls in Eastern Europe—barely recognized as even human by Christian leaders.

YOUR ancestors, TW, weren’t living in peace either.  Tribes warred on each other, killed each other, took their women, and, in general, behaved like their distant Caucasian brethren—and like their far closer Asian brethren.  The great pre-Columbian civilizations in the Americas were ALL built on conquest.  Maybe the Tashope (excuse the spelling) lived in peace among themselves, but I find it hard to believe they survived in the world THEY lived in prior to the White Man without being warriors—and that means killing enemies.

Aztecs invaded and stole Central Mexico.  Mayans invaded and conquered vast tracts of Central America. Incas invaded and conquered and stole vast lands in Peru.  In the east, Iroquois and Algonquin nations battled brutally for territory and control.

The White Man was simply better at killing, having more powerful killing weapons and vaster numbers—and immunity to the diseases he brought.

One set of sonuvabitches were replaced with another, stronger, crueler set.

THAT is the history of the Americas. Just like Europe. Just like Asia. Just like Africa.  Not the idyllic fairy tales.

I just reached my fill.

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By Kwagmyre, March 16, 2010 at 7:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The Israeli/Zionist position towards the U.S. has been more than just “biting the hand that fed it”.....it’s to completely gobble up the arm in one fell swoop.  In fact both arms so long as they’re there to be available for it!

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By Inherit The Wind, March 16, 2010 at 7:38 pm Link to this comment

It is also remarkable that that you regard the deaths of over a million Iraqis to be small potatoes. You are more than happy to shine the light on the implied complicity of 1.3 billion in failing to prevent the terrorist attacks carried out in their name, but remain oblivious to the fact that the massacre of 1,400 people in Gaza was endorsed and supported by 94% of the Israeli population. That poll was provided courtesy of Tel Aviv University. You also fall into the predictable trap of labelling attacks by primitive means as terrorism while buying into the notion that violence is legitimized by eh use of state of the art weaponry.

You also pas the buck with your inference hat the Middle East is doomed to a perennial cycle of violence. Of course, none of us have been around long enough to know the Middle East when it was not occupied by colonial powers employing the age old tactics of divide and conquer and inciting tribal tensions to the benefit of the occupiers.
***********************************************

Shingo: Not your best, pal.  The death count in Iraq, while horrendous, is debatable (numbers I’ve seen run as high as .65 million but NEVER even close to 1 million—but in any case cannot be blamed on Israel except by bad logic that you don’t have.  You deliberately mis-state She—I didn’t see where “small potatoes” referred to the vast deaths in Iraq, nor can I imagine her saying so.  You are smarter and better than that.

You also are dodging around an obvious point: The people of Israel supported the Gaza invasion because they BELIEVED they were being attacked by rockets from Gaza—leaving aside for the moment the question of whether they actually were.  Let’s presume (only for the moment) that it was a lie.

So, too were CLEARLY all the lies that got us into Iraq, and we can all agree on that (except that propaganda mouthpiece GRYM). Some of us questioned Bush BEFORE the Joe Wilson story began to poke holes in it (and Jimmy Carter was one).  The VAST majority of Americans supported the invasion because they BELIEVED HONESTLY that we were threatened.  So, too, did Israelis believe THEY were threatened from Gaza.  See the connection? So, whether or not the Gaza rockets were a lie, the Israeli people supported retaliation because they believed it. 

Now assume (again, just for the moment) that the
stories of the rocket attacks were true. Would not the Israeli people be justified in wanting retaliation?

One thing that constantly bothers me is the assertion that rocket attacks on Israel are “harmless” and therefore retaliation is some sort of crime. I just don’t get that.  So they have lousy aim. Do YOU want to be near one when it blows up?  It is a weapon and a killing machine just like a chain gun on a helicopter.  Perhaps not as effective, and easily rendered useless by “user error” but a weapon wielded none the less.  Sorry pal, “you” fire a gun at me, even if “you” can’t hit the broad side of a barn, and I’m not going to laugh it off and say “try again”.  I’m gonna beat the $#!t out of “you”. And “you” will deserve it.

Shingo, you are an excellent debater and I respect that, but you must get past the idea that when attacked Israel cannot defend itself. It is, of course, legitimate to question or decry the LEVEL of that defense, but to deny ALL right to defense is absurd.

Of course, it is a very different matter if you can prove that the rocket attacks a) never happened (good luck!) or b) that they were IN RESPONSE to Israeli attacks (good luck on that, too, but you have a better shot there).

It’s funny—my position is far closer to GRYM, who fundamentally offends me with his constant propaganda and accusations against EVERYBODY (especially me) of dishonesty, than it is to Shingo, who, despite detesting his positions, I respect.

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By elisalouisa, March 16, 2010 at 7:34 pm Link to this comment

TAO Walker, March 16 at 7:38 pm
One of the chief tenets of the cult of allamericanexceptionalism, however, holds that it’s always some ‘other’ who has (or is) The-Problem.  Meanwhile, the shit-pile in “the homeland” has reached depths in which millions are already drowning (or have drowned), and hundreds of millions more (including no few
caught-up in the feckless ‘debate’ on this ‘thread’) are just holding their noses in-denial, while their own paper canoes dissolve in the muck.
It’s quite a spectacle….if you like that sort of thing.
*****************
I must confess TAO Walker I am embarrassed at times, knowing you are privy to some of the same posts that I am reading.  You are kind and wise in not mentioning the statistics of Native Americans that were eliminated to make way for “my”? country. Paraphrasing from ‘Ceremony’, “I went to war to fight
for the land that was taken from me.”

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By truedigger3, March 16, 2010 at 7:01 pm Link to this comment

Re:By Go Right Young Man, March 16 at 8:46 pm #

It is glaringly obvious that you are not expressing opinions here but parroting canned messages over and over repeating the same lies and empty bullshit.
As I advised your before, why don’t go right and keep going and don’t come back. You are wasting your time here and are not justifying your keep for your handlers!!.

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By TAO Walker, March 16, 2010 at 6:46 pm Link to this comment

By “my country” one supposes Shenonymous means the legal fiction known far-and-wide as “America, U.S.-of”  This Old Indian’s spontaneous affection, “country-wise,” certainly includes but is not limited-to Turtle Island….with a long-time tendency to enjoy roaming the long-grass prairies, mostly afoot but sometimes horseback.

Probably, though, when it come to actual territory and not some mere map, Shenonymous really meant to say she loves OUR Country….which she’s surely welcome to do.

HokaHey!

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By Shingo, March 16, 2010 at 6:46 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

I am not trying to demean you about stating facts, I am questioning why you choose to be so selective with your standards and line of argument. Your thesis is hypocritical, with or without facts.

It is also remarkable that that you regard the deaths of over a million Iraqis to be small potatoes. You are more than happy to shine the light on the implied complicity of 1.3 billion in failing to prevent the terrorist attacks carried out in their name, but remain oblivious to the fact that the massacre of 1,400 people in Gaza was endorsed and supported by 94% of the Israeli population. That poll was provided courtesy of Tel Aviv University. You also fall into the predictable trap of labelling attacks by primitive means as terrorism while buying into the notion that violence is legitimized by eh use of state of the art weaponry.

You also pas the buck with your inference hat the Middle East is doomed to a perennial cycle of violence. Of course, none of us have been around long enough to know the Middle East when it was not occupied by colonial powers employing the age old tactics of divide and conquer and inciting tribal tensions to the benefit of the occupiers.

Yes, there are thousands of years of history that serve to fuel the tensions in the region, but those tensions have been exacerbated and distorted by outside influences. It is far from unreasonable to argue that the consequences of the unconditional support we give to Israel is that they have no reason to pursue peace, because there is no cost to avoiding negotiating with it’s neighbors.

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By Shingo, March 16, 2010 at 6:24 pm Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man is now resorting to simply cutting and pasting the same comment repeatedly, which is consistent with the Zionist meltdown we see all to often on these forums.

He also refuses to address what he means by “real people in the West Bank”, which presumably does not include the 2.5 million Palestinians living there under brutal occupation and apartheid.

Go Right Young Man’s psychosis, which is on display for us, is clear evidence of why Israel is doomed.

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By PatrickHenry, March 16, 2010 at 6:17 pm Link to this comment

ITW

I rather enjoy seeing Israel “eat its own dog food” is actually how the quote goes.

While I was just entertaining She’s fetish for cannabalism only you could find something racist where no racism exists.

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By Go Right Young Man, March 16, 2010 at 6:04 pm Link to this comment

Taking 10 minutes -a blink of an eye in a lifetime- talking, and “authentically listening”, to real people in the West Bank and Sderot would lift the veil of ignorance repeatedly on display this day.

Some will admittedly and adamantly refuse.

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By Shingo, March 16, 2010 at 5:53 pm Link to this comment

“Taking 10 minutes -a blink of an eye in a lifetime- talking, and authentically listening, to real people in the West Bank and Sderot would lift the veil of ignorance on display this day”.”

Clearly, your descent into senility and mental retardation have begun.  You are simply resorting to blocking tour ears covering your eyes and repeating the same sentences like a mantra and

You never did answer my question.  Which people in the West Bank should we talk to?  The 350,000 illegal settlers that are living on stolen land or the 2.5 million Palestinians who are living under apartheid?

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By Shenonymous, March 16, 2010 at 5:47 pm Link to this comment

Shingo, it is not my figures nor any claim of mine, but comes from The
Report of Casualties of War, and the iCasualties.org.  For dates, which
are specific, go to the reports yourself.  Stop trying to demean me
when I am stating what are the facts.  It is small minded of you. 
Where exactly do you get your “facts?”  Or maybe you don’t go in
for facts just wing it on your own faulty logic and hubris?  Or what you
can scrape from others?  I gave my resources which is more than you
ever do.  I am speaking synoptically and you are speaking small local
potatoes.  Of course the middle east has been out of balance for
centuries, actually for millennia.  It is hardly in the cards that they will
ever resolve their eternal collision.  It is a feud without end.  Interested
parties can try, but it is in all probability useless.  The Jews and Arabs
have a common language Aramaic which shows they were once familial. 
When they were nomadic.  Speaking of debris, looks like you have too
much of it in your own head.  I’m thinking Tao Walker makes sense to
me!  Except I still love m’country even if he doesn’t.

Shingo asks, Is that with or without white phosphorous? However
you like it.  Would you be joining PH and the liberal Israelis for lunch? 
Be sure to use Kosher salt.  Conservative Israeli babies are quite a
delicacy, so I’ve heard. 

Actually, Patrick Henry, it might be propitious if Israel did change
governments, but I don’t anticipate it since Netanyahu’s philosophy is
the prevailing one among the Israelis.  I was disappointed when he won
that election, by a hair if you remember. Doesn’t the general israeli
public support him vigorously?

What gerard suggests is sound and a step toward calm progress:
objective arbitration by a kind of neutral advisory who would hear, and
hold discussion about the conflict to which each side contributes.  Of
course there are those here who can only operate if their bile is moving
around in their heads.  Her view of faultfinding being counterproductive
is astute and commonsense.  It does not matter however if one side is
more at fault than the other as the degree of fault is seen from the
view of respective sides.  It would be difficult if not impossible to
assign blame.  And would halt any negotiation. Yet an arbitrator like
William Ury might find a way.  History however almost precludes an
end to the partisan argument.  Thousands of years provide emotional
basis to stay entrenched in each side’s position.  Digging out the
eternal festering would require a surgical excision which wars have
attempted to do but wars never really in their own right solve anything. 
They just postpone solutions until life can catch up.  Their only hope is
that new generations somehow will solve the ancient gorge.  That
might be facilitated by the advent of widespread e-communication. 
This is evident in the internal conflict going on in Iran.  It will be
interesting to historians how all of it plays out.

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By Go Right Young Man, March 16, 2010 at 5:46 pm Link to this comment

Taking 10 minutes -a blink of an eye in a lifetime- talking, and authentically listening, to real people in the West Bank and Sderot would lift the veil of ignorance on display this day”.

Some will refuse.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 16, 2010 at 5:46 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry, March 16 at 7:31 pm #

She,

Actually I’m trying to cut down on my food intake and that includes kosher.
*********************************************

This is one of the stupidest and more racist things you ever posted.  Of course the cannibalism post below is even stupider.

*********************************************
I hope current Israeli regime pisses off those “liberal” Israelis enough that they get out the vote the next election and dump the current government.
*********************************************

And this is, by far, the absolute smartest thing you’ve ever posted.  I’ve voiced a similar sentiment many, many times.

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By Alan MacDonald, March 16, 2010 at 5:36 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Quite simply, what the Goldstone Report is for Israel, Hedges own “Empire of Illusions” is for the United States. as both break through the illusion of their respective hollowed-out democracies, and expose the reality of their similar roles in the exact same disguised Global corporate/financial/militarist EMPIRE.

Alan MacDonald
Sanford, Maine

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By Kwagmyre, March 16, 2010 at 5:34 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shingo writes:

“Contrary to your claims, 1967 was hardly a demonstration of Israel’s ability to defend itself.  Israel won that war by launching a surprise attack on Egypt, but Israel’s vulnerability in 1973, was a hug embarrassment for Israel.”

It was in fact years after the ‘67 War that Moshe Dayan admitted to an interviewer that Israel pretty much provoked the Arab nations into the war as a means of aggrandizing its territorial ambitions in the region.

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By Shingo, March 16, 2010 at 5:28 pm Link to this comment

If any Grad rockets were launched into Ashkelon in Sept. 2008, it woudl have been reported in an Israeli news source.  It wasn’t.

“One of those worlds is real.  The other not.”

You continue with this assinine line of argument, obviously becasue you have no news sources that back up your claims.

There are plenty of new reporters in Israel more than capable of reporting what took place in Ashkelon in Sept. 2008.

There is also the Israeli government, which has no reason to pretend this didn’t happen.

Your argument therefore rests on the lunatic theory that the Israeli government and the Israeli media are conspiring to hide this information from us.

Is that what you;re suggesting?

“Taking 10 minutes -a blink of an eye in a lifetime- talking to real people in the West Bank and Sderot would lift the veil of ignorance on display this day.”

That’s an incredibly revealing statement.  Who, may ask are the real people in the West Bank? Are the 2.5 million Palestinians not real or not people?

Without fail,  all Israeli propagandists on these blogs always expose they racism and bigotry sooner or later. 

“Others will reach out and simply, authentically, listen.”

Listen as in, listening to Jews only right?

After half a dozen posts, not a single source or link has been included in any of Go Right Young Man’s incoherent and fraudulent rants.

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By Go Right Young Man, March 16, 2010 at 5:18 pm Link to this comment

Only those sitting in their comfortable chairs in safe places are unaware that Grad rockets were launched into Ashkelon in Sept. 2008.

There is the world of pundits and politics and there is a world of people talking, working, living and dying.  One of those worlds is real.  The other not.

Taking 10 minutes -a blink of an eye in a lifetime- talking to real people in the West Bank and Sderot would lift the veil of ignorance on display this day.—Some will refuse.  Others will reach out and simply, authentically, listen.

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By Go Right Young Man, March 16, 2010 at 5:17 pm Link to this comment

Only those sitting in their comfortable chairs in safe places are unaware that Grad rockets were launched into Ashkelon in Sept. 2008.

There is the world of pundits and politics and there is a world of people talking, working, living and dying.  One of those worlds is real.  The other not.

Taking 10 minutes -a blink of an eye in a lifetime- talking to real people in the West Bank and Sderot would lift the veil of ignorance on display this day. —Some will refuse.  Others will reach out and simply, authentically, listen.

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By TAO Walker, March 16, 2010 at 4:38 pm Link to this comment

There is, of course, a long ‘tradition’ among believers to-the-effect that the ‘spark’ which ignites the CONflagration which burns-down “....the world as we know it,” will be touched-off in “THE(no-more-)HOLY(than-any-other-land)LAND”....(nor, for that matter, any less so, either).  So the obsessive CONcern here and elsewhere, over the latest bloody eruption of an ages-old family feud the place’s occupants are evidently helpless NOT to carry-on to its bitter end, is not so hard to understand.

As someone who has no ‘stake’ whatsoever in the outcome “over there,” however, this Old Savage can’t help wondering how come theamericanpeople, for just one example, seem so generally oblivious to the “clear-and-present-danger” their very own character flaws present to the prospects of any long-term viability for their very own ‘selfs.’  Maybe it’s just the same old cold comfort the merely maimed find in CONtemplating images of the murderously mangled….or the death-row inmate whose ‘case’ is still ‘on-appeal’ while watching one whose ‘string’ has run-out shuffle-off to the execution chamber.

Those here who might feel this assessment is too grim, are surely welcome to that opinion.  The Way
this Living World actually ‘works,’ though, for those who are paying their precious attention (and affectionate respect), invariably has people ‘hoist by their own (and not somebody else’s) petard.’  So whatever ‘justice’ is visited upon the military occupiers of Turtle Island will be because of their own behavioral failings….not as mere ‘collateral damage’ in any “final solution” the descendants of Shem come-up-with to settle their own and each others’ “hash.”

One of the chief tenets of the cult of allamericanexceptionalism, however, holds that it’s always some ‘other’ who has (or is) The-Problem.  Meanwhile, the shit-pile in “the homeland” has reached depths in which millions are already drowning (or have drowned), and hundreds of millions more (including no few caught-up in the feckless ‘debate’ on this ‘thread’) are just holding their noses in-denial, while their own paper canoes dissolve in the muck.

It’s quite a spectacle….if you like that sort of thing.

HokaHey!

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By PatrickHenry, March 16, 2010 at 4:31 pm Link to this comment

She,

Actually I’m trying to cut down on my food intake and that includes kosher.

I hope current Israeli regime pisses off those “liberal” Israelis enough that they get out the vote the next election and dump the current government.

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By samosamo, March 16, 2010 at 4:07 pm Link to this comment

By Shingo, March 16 at 4:28 pm

““5.  Israel expects Americas to go to war and die for Israel,
but like a terribly spoiled child,  doesn’t believe it owes
anything to America.  America paid the price of support for
Israel on 9/11.”“
*************************************

Good points but as for 9/11, until there is the REAL CRIMINAL
investigation as to what happened that day, I can never
believe that this was some kind of foreign ‘blowback’ for
whatever, but it being a false flag event as the downing of the
2 towers and of wtc 7 were deliberate demolitions that poor
old osama bin laden could have never had the access to those
buildings to set them for demolition.

Far too obvious was the scraping up of the debris and shipped
out without a criminal investigation portends far too much
skullduggery by the administration du jour on that day.

Oh, and I don’t understand why the videos of the pentagon
that day haven’t been released other than it would show
anything but a large commercial airliner hitting the pentagon.

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By Shingo, March 16, 2010 at 4:02 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

I’m sure you think you’re post is an example of objectivity and enlightened, while in reality is is a text book example of bigotry, selective morality and blatant omission.

Let’s begin with your first example.  You claim that 7192 people, mostly civilians, have been
murdered in the Middle East by Islamist terrorist attacks.   No dates are given to suggest what time period this spans, but let’s assume that it is true.  The question you pose is that why did the 96% of Muslims (it’s actually closer to 98%) who weren’t involved not do more to prevent it?  Ignoring the the fact that there is no way of measuring what the 98% percentile did or did not do to prevent further attacks, it assumes that the label of terrorism should unique to violence perpetrated by Muslims.
Ton Friedman, a well known Israeli propagandist, recently claimed that the 2006 war with Lebanon was a great success because the targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure by Israel has become a strong deterrent to future attacks from Hazbollah.  In anyone’;s language, Friedman was endorsing terrorism.  How if we consider that the Israeli attack on Southern Lebanon and the attacks on Gaza were acts of state terrorism, should we be asking what did the Israeli public do to prevent it?  Not only is the answer, NOTHING, but the reality is that the majority fully supported these attacks.

And please, if you’re going to waste out time arguing who started the 2006 war, take it up with Judge Winograd who concluded that “Israel embarked on a prolonged war that it initiated……….”

When Israel attacked Gaza (a war that began when Israel broke the ceasefire on November 4th, 2008), 98% of the Israeli public supported it.

When the US attacked and invaded Iraq, 80% of the US public supported it. The US would go on to kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians the process.

Now to your point about balance.  Balance is a meaningless term that is demanded by the predominantly guilty party.  In your post, you ignored the elephants in the room, namely, the fact that the Us and Israel acre occupiers and have invaded other countries to acquire or control territory.

As long as one side is occupying another or insists on invading other states,  the matter is one entirely sided.  Israel occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem because it chooses to.  The US occupies Iraq because it chooses to.  Those who are occupied have 2 choices.  Either die in silence or resist occupation, which is a human right by anyone’s standards.

Israel has started every war since 1948 it has been engaged in, with the exception of 1973, which was a hangover of the 1967 war anyway.  You can ramble on about balance all you like, but the record is decidedly unbalanced.

‘‘And then there are those who enjoy watching cannabalism.  Does that include Israeli babies, Patrick Henry?  Would you like a taste?”

Is that with or without white phosphorous?

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By Shingo, March 16, 2010 at 3:38 pm Link to this comment

omop,

“Shingo better re-read the following several times before mouthing-off about
MY FLAWED PROPAGANDA….”

Translation: Omop’s flawed propaganda was eviscerated and the best he can do is respond with juvenile taunts.

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By omop, March 16, 2010 at 3:27 pm Link to this comment

By Shingo, March 16 at 4:28 pm #
omop,

A few corrections to your flawed propaganda.


Shingo better re-read the following several times before mouthing-off about
MY FLAWED PROPAGANDA….


  By omop, March 16 at 11:12 am #

  Excerpt comments from non-liberal jews.

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By Go Right Young Man, March 16, 2010 at 2:56 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Good post.

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By Shenonymous, March 16, 2010 at 2:51 pm Link to this comment

And then there are those who enjoy watching cannabalism.  Does that
include Israeli babies, Patrick Henry?  Would you like a taste?

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By Shenonymous, March 16, 2010 at 2:47 pm Link to this comment

War is never justified unless one side was attacked. 

The number of rockets or other ordinance is simply not important.  It is
the number of lives that are.

Just to keep perspective, 7192 people, mostly civilians, have been
murdered in the Middle East by Islamist terrorist attacks.  This does not
count all the terrorist murders throughout the world, which one statistic
puts as 14,996.

The figures come from statistics from various sources:  BBC, The
Street.com, Al Jazeera, Boston Globe, Indian Express Newspapers, Ltd.,
the Telegraph, Washington Post. 

It is said that only 6% of the Islamist population (Muslims) are terrorists
who conduct deadly attacks. Isn’t that interesting that 94% claim not to
be involved.  That means the 7192 people killed by militant terrorist
Islamists were killed by only 6% of that entire population but what do
the 94% do to stop the 6%? 

One has to be very careful where the source of information comes
from.  It does not do truth any good to gather information from the
likes of Daniel Pipes, et al, nor from Jihadist news organizations.

But we have to also keep in perspective the number of Iraqis killed
since the invasion in 2003 to December 2009:  Casualties in 2006 ?
601,027 violent deaths; 2007 ? 1,033,000 violent deaths as a result of
the conflict; 2009 - approximately 100,000 violent civilian deaths as a
result of the conflict. (Sources: The Lancet survey; Opinion Research
Business survey; The Iraq body COunt Project).  The human cost of this
war is staggering.  And the statistics presented are not complete.

Statistics are deceiving.  For instance: Iraqi Security Forces from June
2003 to April 2009, 9,010, Media and aid workers, 281,  And almost
always scant of the reality.  For instance, the stats for Westerner
casualties:  Americans from 1991 (Gulf War-358) to the present
including Iraq (4368) and Afghanistan (933) for a total of 5659. 
Coalition forces as of Feb 2009, 4568 total plus 318 from other
coalition nations.  Contractors, 1315 deaths. 

All of this is not to diminish the travesty of the deaths of the
Palestinians in the Gaza conflict. The more than 1400 deaths mocks
humanity.  But this does not speak for the thousands, or millions
depending on what is counted, of Jewish deaths.  How shall it all be
balanced out?  Can it be balanced?  What are the boundaries that can
count towards a tally?  What it seems is needed is mass psychiatric
treatment.

Liberal Jews need to be put on the spot, but so do liberal Muslims. 
Maybe we ought to forget there are two sides to a war?  It is never as
simple or as one-sided as Hedges always seems to make it.

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By PatrickHenry, March 16, 2010 at 2:41 pm Link to this comment

I rather enjoy seeing Israel eat its own.

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By Shingo, March 16, 2010 at 1:44 pm Link to this comment

firefly,

I’m not wasting my time, because I have no illusions about trying to convince the die-hard pro Israeli gang of anything.  They are ideologues who run away form facts and reality and are pathological liars, as well as nauseatingly hypocritical.  One need only look at Go Right Young Man’s concern for an Israeli child that was injured by a rocket, while failing to even mention the 400 children Israel slaughtered in Gaza and the hundreds more is burned with white phosphorous.

I rebut the lies and propaganda of these people for the sake of other readers who might be interested or fooled by the Israeli propaganda.  Israeli myths have been accepted in the public arena for so long that many people accept them at face value. 

Hearing the facts will open their eyes to the truth.  These Israeli proagandists always run away when their lied aare refuted with facts.

As for Israel’s day of reckoning, it is approaching much sooner than you suggest. In 20 years, the population in Israel will be predominantly Arab, so Israel will be officially an apartheid state.  Israel’s educated class are leaving Israel in droves and not returning.

The US is heading towards bankruptcy and Israel’s welfare cheques will dry up.  Not only will Israel have a lot less money to throw around, but it will have to stat paying for it’s own weapons.

People like ‘Go Right Young Man’ and ‘Garo’, are already irrelevant. The shift in worldwide opinion towards Israel is reaching a tipping point, even among the ruling classes, and Israel seems determined to rush headlong towards official status as a pariah state and they are not going to turn around in Israel’s favour.  The damage is done. 

Like he collapse of the Berlin Wall, when the day of reckoning for Israel arrives, it will happen quickly.

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By Shingo, March 16, 2010 at 1:28 pm Link to this comment

omop,

A few corrections to your flawed propaganda.

1.  Jerusalem is not Israel’s capital
2.  East Jerusalem is occupied territory and thus, Israel has no sovereign right to it
3.  What’s depressing is that Iran has no nuclear weapons program, is a signatory to the NPT and is open to inspection, while Israel, which has over 200 nukes, refuses to sign the NPT.
4.  Israel is a parasite that relies on the US to survive.  It demands that it continue to be given the world’s biggest welfare cheque and arms unconditionally, while openly flouting agreements and international law.
5.  Israel expects Americas to go to war and die for Israel, but like a terribly spoiled child,  doesn’t believe it owes anything to America.  America paid the price of support for Israel on 9/11.
6.  Biden’s private comments reflected the collective view of top U.S. military commanders throughout the Middle East region.  This week is first time we have seen such a shift in policy from the military, who now regards Israel as a liability.
7.  Israel is the rogue state, which is why in international polls, Israel is regarded as a greater threat to international peace than any other country.

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By yours truly, March 16, 2010 at 1:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Whether Jewish, Christian or whatever, right now Zionists are vulnerable because they’re backing a nation that’s stoking the resentment and hatred that can only add to the danger faced by our troops.  And since there’s nothing more upsetting to the public than a perceived threat to our troops, those of us who seek justice and peace in the Mideast have a rare opportunity to put Zionists on the defensive.  How?  By protesting at pro-Israel institutions, not just once but daily, chanting and carrying signs that say such things as “On whose side, Zionists, Israel or our troops.”  Will such an action loosen whatever hold Israel still has on the American people?  Maybe, maybe not, but it’s sure worth a try.  And if there is a loosening, what then?  Well, for starters how about we go on to pressure our government to cease and desist in its unconditional support of the settler-entity?

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By firefly, March 16, 2010 at 11:20 am Link to this comment

Shingo

I wouldn’t waste my time trying to convince the die-hard pro Israeli gang. As far as they are concerned, Israel (by virtue of being Jewish and Jews having suffered persecution during WWII) may do what they please in the world. If Israel was a Moslem/Christian/Mormon/Hindu/Buddhists or Atheist state, they likely would denounce the cruel and barbaric apartheid regime. These pro-Israel supporters turn a blind eye to global consensus that Israel is breaking many international laws and committing crimes against humanity.

These people don’t care that while America accuses Iran of trying to produce ONE bomb to defend itself, Israel has about 1,000 bombs all obtained illegally, and regularly threatens (and carries out) war against its neighbors (the threat of war is internationally illegal as well). More over, thanks to the powerful pro-Israel lobby, it is allowed to retain the longest existing concentration camp in human history, persecute millions at will (even babies), bulldoze all foreign human rights activists who are defending the helpless Palestinian people (take the case of Rachel Corrie, an American, who was murdered by Israelis while trying to help save a young family from losing their home), prevent non-political organizations like ‘Medecins sans Frontiers’ from entering Gaza, and ban the free press from going into Palestinian territories, etc. I could go on forever. What difference does it make?

One day, when oil runs out and the US loses interest in the Middle East and is no longer the sole superpower, and Israel’s neighbors have equally powerful friends (Russia, China, Brazil), then and only then, will Israel wish it had worked towards a genuine and JUST peace with the Palestinians and its other neighbors. Then the voices of people like ‘Go Right Young Man’ and ‘Garo’, will become irrelevant.

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By Leefeller, March 16, 2010 at 10:04 am Link to this comment

Deceptions seem to be the bread and water for the substance of politics.  Not having a dog in this fight for me,  it seems those placing bets do!

Degrees of blame seem never ending, this article see,s as many before it on this subject is but a return to groundhog day, all over again!

Accusations fly and nothing changes and so it is!

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By Blackspeare, March 16, 2010 at 9:43 am Link to this comment

The present situation in East Jerusalem is a case of politics getting in the way of common sense.  We all know the reason for settlement expansion, but why announce it——like Nike says, “Just do it.”  What a major blunder!

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By balkas, March 16, 2010 at 9:41 am Link to this comment

US is the most efficient biocidal and homicidal democracy in the world.

Israeli democracy is also homi- and biocidal, but not nearly as efficient as the US democracy.

And calling these two nations democratic means a lot to biocidal and homicidal people.

And a homicidal democracy like US doesn’t target everyone nor is that done for fun and games. It has its goals, but the goalgetters are not telling us what the goals are.
At this stage of the game the tow goalposts are as wide apart as the two poles.
But whatever the goals are, they must be justified or else a democracy cldn’t wage all those wars.
Oh, yes, i forgot, a democracy can make mistakes but never be wrong.

A dictatorship like saddam’s cannot ever be mistaken, solely criminal! Also sprechen alle propheten: yishrael ist immer korrrekt! Aber die propheten haben nichts ueber amerrika gesprochen.
Amerrikaner, Achtung, bitte! Only israel cannot do a wrong!  danke.

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By Leefeller, March 16, 2010 at 9:08 am Link to this comment

ITW,

No! She want back to Texas. She told me she did not want to stay here and live in a state that did not believe in the right to work like the Great State of Texas!

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By MeHere, March 16, 2010 at 8:28 am Link to this comment

I feel deeply sorry for those who fail to see the flawed policies of Israel.  If they truly cared for Israel, the Jewish people, and the US and, if they had learned some valuable lessons from the Holocaust, they would be the first ones to try to acknowledge what’s wrong.  Instead, they are condemning Israel to be a new kind of ghetto for Jews. I suppose they are motivated by fear which is very understandable. But fear can lead to fanaticism while awareness can develop courage in people. You should try a bit harder.  Thanks to those Jews and non-Jews who have enough courage!

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By omop, March 16, 2010 at 8:12 am Link to this comment

Excerpt comments from non-liberal jews.

“Given His Pedigree, No One Should Be Surprised Obama Is Stirring Up Crisis
With Israel”.

The Obama administration’s calculated decision to escalate its open attacks
against Israel over a routine decision by the Jerusalem Planning and Building
Board to approve 1,600 housing units in Ramat Shlomo neighborhood presents
Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu with an unenviable task.

He has to either relinquish Israel’s sovereignty over its capital by capitulating in
the face of the unprecedented American assault, or he can tell Obama and
Clinton and their cohorts to go to hell. It is depressing, and let’s face it, a bit
scary that the US, which has refused to raise a finger against Iran’s nuclear
program or any other rogue action by any other US enemy has decided to go
after Israel in this fashion. It is depressing, but not surprising.

Anyone who paid the slightest attention to who Barack [short for Barakeh in
Arabic] Obama is before he was elected knew full well that this man is an
enemy of Israel.

Given his pedigree, no one should have been surprised that Obama has chosen
to stir up a crisis in his relations with Israel.

Bibi can tell Obama to stick it where the sun don’t shine and rally the Israeli
public and Israel’s many friends in America to his side and so make it
impossible for Obama to carry on doing this with immunity.

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By Garo, March 16, 2010 at 6:14 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hay,Young Man Go Right,

I agree completely with your comment:

“Ignorance is not a virtue”,

AND YOU ARE IT,THE IGNORANCE.

You have certainly earned the above response since you have called everyone who has posted on this forum as ignorant EXCEPT YOURSELF!! How arrogant can you get!!

Just keep consulting your friends in Eilat,Israel and you will continue to drown in an ocean of ignorance which has no end…....

If your friends in Eilat are “human beings” as you claim,I suggest they join Yuri Avnery and his peace movement in Israel and push for peace with Hamas and the rest of the brutalized Palestinians,instead of blaming Hamas for the failed war Israel waged,with obvious barbarity or rather savagery against the sieged people of Gaza.

You have also condemned every poster who sat on a confortable chair to type his/her post to post on this thread. Question: 

How comfortable the chair was on which you had comforted your ars on when you typed the “highly knowledgeable??” posts of yours?

Your ignorance,sir,is beyond description. PITY!!

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By Shingo, March 16, 2010 at 5:26 am Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

The problem with ideologues like yourself, epescially indoctrinated Zionistas, is that that you are capable of believing anything that supports your ideology, whicle contradictions and contrary facts simply bounce off and logical implications are denied. 

In your case, you run away from detailed refutations of your position and simply repeat your lies.  On those occasions when you do post after some detailed response, you refuse to respond to the details. 

You probably aren’t consciously aware of how dishonest you are.  It’s part of the cognitive problem that Zionists have to deceive themselves first, otherwise they wouldn’t have the energy to keep up the pretence.

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By Shingo, March 16, 2010 at 5:18 am Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

“Although Shingo’s knowledge of the subject is shallow and myopic I too commend him for caring enough to do some interesting research.”

Translation:  Shingo was cited facts which debunk all of Go Right Young Man’s mindless and baseless propaganda.  And what upset Go Right Young Man the most was that Shingo used Israel’s own government sources to prove what a liar he is.

Go Right Young Man’s particularly hates the fact that Shingo insists that he back up his claims with sources, which he is unable to do. 

“If Shingo would now begin listening to real human beings, see that there is actually two sides to this narrative, he would gain a much richer and deeper understanding of the issues involved.”

Translation:  Go Right Young Man wants us to believe that facts are not important and what really matters are people’s opinions and what they believe. 

“Holding so tightly to disdain and blame, directed toward one side over another, serves only to deepen the divide and causes more death and hardship.”

Translation:  Go Right Young Man realizes that Israel are to blame, but wants us to forget all the unpleasant details and pretend like it never happened.  One wonders how Go Right Young Man would feel about arguing that we should not direct blame and disdain at the Nazi’s for what they did during WWII, because that would serves only to deepen the divide and causes more death and hardship.

Not only is Go Right Young Man a pathological liar and propagandist, but an insufferbale hypocrite as well.

Report this

By Shingo, March 16, 2010 at 5:07 am Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

You’re clearly emotional and way out of your depth on this issue. Debunking your pathetic and desperate arguments is almost too easy.

“Immediately after seizing power, Hamas began firing rockets into Israel.”

False.  Hamas won the election in January of 2006 and continued to observe the unilateral ceasefire until Israel, responding to rocket fire from the small parties (not Hamas) attacked Gaza in June 2006 killing 220 civilians.

“It is estimated that close to 10,000 rockets have been launched, 3,000 alone in 2008.”’

False again.  According to HRW watch, which is where you got your original figures, the toal number of rockets fired by Hamas throughout 2008 was 1750 Kassam rockets and 1528 mortar bombs.

“ Only the ignorant, sitting in their comfortable chairs in safe places, believe there was a ceasefire with Hamas.”

Are you suggesting that the Israeli government are ignorant, sitting in their comfortable chairs in safe places?

“Even as the 2008 “ceasefire” was being hammered out Hamas television was broadcasting a helpful guide to kidnapping Israeli civilians and soldiers.”

False and irrelevant.  There is no evidence of such programs.  We know this because you are unable to provide any links to cite this claim.

Just stupid and mindless Hasbara propaganda.

“While the Western media was talking in terms of a “ceasefire” Hamas was talking in terms of a “tahadiya,” which means a “calming down” in Arabic. Only those living in the area of Southern Israel and the West Bank would know this.”

False again.  In the age of the internet, this kind of information is readily available.  of course,  you again will fail to produce any such links because this is stupid and mindless Hasbara propaganda.

“Only the ignorant sitting in their comfortable chairs in safe places are unaware that Grad rockets were launched into Ashkelon in Sept. 2008.”

Actually, 3 rockets were fired into Southern Israel in September of 2008, and according to Intelligence and Terrorism Centre of Israel, none were fired by Hamas and none were Grad rockets.

“Ashkelon was previously considered out of range of Hamas until a Grad landed on a shopping mall severely wounding a toddler and her mother.”

This was after Israel broke the 2008 ceasefire in November of 2008, in which they kileld 1,300 Palestianians, most of whom were women and children.  Grad rockets, like other Hams rockets, are primitive weapons that do not even carry a warhead. Meanwhile, Israel slaughterers over 400 children in it’s attack on Gaza of that year, having violated the ceasefire and started a war.

“Ignorance is not a virtue.”

Agreed, and the only way to avert ignorance is to stick to facts, not resort to hysterical and incoherent rants about what people think.

“A mere 10 minutes talking to real people in the West Bank or Sderot would end the widespread veil of ignorance which is displayed on these pages.”

Which people in the West Bank, which is illegally occupied by Israel, are you referring to?  Are you refrrign to the 2.5 million Palestinians who live under Israeli apartheid and suffer from Israeli oppression, house demolitions or the fanatic settlers?

Incidentally, Sderot used to be a Palestinian village until Israel ethnically cleansed it of it’s population in 1948 and stole the land.

“Keeping one’s mind buried in a favored news source or Web site is not a commendable act.”

Are you suggesting that Israeli news and government sources are not sufficient?

“Taking the time to actually listen to real human beings is far more helpful.”

While it might be helpful, it’s not how one accumulates facts, and facts are all that matter.
You have demonstrated yet again that you haven’t got a remote idea about what the facts are.

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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, March 16, 2010 at 5:04 am Link to this comment

Although Shingo’s knowledge of the subject is shallow and myopic I too commend him for caring enough to do some interesting research. 

If Shingo would now begin listening to real human beings, see that there is actually two sides to this narrative, he would gain a much richer and deeper understanding of the issues involved. 

Holding so tightly to disdain and blame, directed toward one side over another, serves only to deepen the divide and causes more death and hardship.

Report this
Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, March 16, 2010 at 4:18 am Link to this comment

Immediately after seizing power, Hamas began firing rockets into Israel. It is estimated that close to 10,000 rockets have been launched, 3,000 alone in 2008.  Only the ignorant, sitting in their comfortable chairs in safe places, believe there was a ceasefire with Hamas.

Even as the 2008 “ceasefire” was being hammered out Hamas television was broadcasting a helpful guide to kidnapping Israeli civilians and soldiers. The news of the television show made headlines in Israel while the rest of the world remained largely ignorant.

While the Western media was talking in terms of a “ceasefire” Hamas was talking in terms of a “tahadiya,” which means a “calming down” in Arabic. Only those living in the area of Southern Israel and the West Bank would know this.

Only the ignorant sitting in their comfortable chairs in safe places are unaware that Grad rockets were launched into Ashkelon in Sept. 2008.  Ashkelon was previously considered out of range of Hamas until a Grad landed on a shopping mall severely wounding a toddler and her mother.

Ignorance is not a virtue.

A mere 10 minutes talking to real people in the West Bank or Sderot would end the widespread veil of ignorance which is displayed on these pages.

Keeping one’s mind buried in a favored news source or Web site is not a commendable act.  Taking the time to actually listen to real human beings is far more helpful.

Report this

By truedigger3, March 16, 2010 at 4:06 am Link to this comment

I salute “Shingo” and his vast intimite knowledge of the injustices and suffering that have befallen the Palestinian people and his continuous dedication to spreading the honest truth about these blatant injustices and brutality inflected on the Paletinian people.

Report this

By peters ship, March 16, 2010 at 12:55 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I thank God everyday for Finkelstein

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By samosamo, March 15, 2010 at 10:08 pm Link to this comment

This can’t be anything but that the terrorists in charge of izrael
have now created the sociopathic state of izrael(reportedly with
200 +or- nuclear war heads) and are rounding up their own
people that object to these terrorists running izrael, and these
‘rulers’ are not doing anything more than ethnically cleansing
Gaza as a reward unto their own selves; and for the rest of the
world, don’t worry about it, cause izrael with their puppet the
u.s.a. will get the job done, pronto.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 15, 2010 at 8:19 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller, March 15 at 10:09 pm #

Apparently since I went to high school with a guy who said his father was Jewish and his mother was Catholic, makes me an expert on both the Pope and Israel,

I also once dated a girl from Texas!
******************************************

Once was enough for her was it?

Is she now re-inventing history so school children can learn Ronald Reagan (a “christian”) was more important than that dirty deist, Jefferson?

(gotta bust your chops once in a while, guy, or you’ll get a big head!)

I knew a guy once who met ONE rotten Englishman and decided all the English were shits.  Of course, this same paranoid mental defective @$$hole nearly shot me with a .38 belly-banger for pulling out a razor knife to trim a cabinet we were installing.  He ALONE made me realize the wisdom of SOME kinda gun control!

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By Shingo, March 15, 2010 at 7:18 pm Link to this comment

Nice one Leefeller,

Apparently the Hasbara mother ship is instructing it’s agents to answer difficult questions with,

“Good luck to you in all things”

The theory seems to be that piety and false pretensions of goodwill are a substitute for substance. 

These desperados are really floundering aren’t they?

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, March 15, 2010 at 7:09 pm Link to this comment

Apparently since I went to high school with a guy who said his father was Jewish and his mother was Catholic, makes me an expert on both the Pope and Israel,

I also once dated a girl from Texas!

Report this

By clintonius, March 15, 2010 at 6:45 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Netanyahu is hubris and wickedness personified.

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By Shingo, March 15, 2010 at 6:12 pm Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

“Good luck to you in all things.”

Translation:  You have no sources and want to avoid the debate.

Some advice to you for future reference.  Don’t bring a knife to a gunfight, especially a blunt and rusted one with no handle.

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By Go Right Young Man, March 15, 2010 at 6:07 pm Link to this comment

Shingo,

Good luck to you in all things.

Report this

By gerard, March 15, 2010 at 5:44 pm Link to this comment

I just now noticed the caption under the illustration for this story.  “.. the highly controversial security barrier which has been used, critics say, to seize Palestinian land and manipulate the population.”

This caption is highly manipulative in itself, and I wonder why such cavil is felt to be necessary here.

The reason the wall is “controversial” is BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN USED to seize Palestinian land.  Right? Acre after acre.  Proveable?  Documentable?  If so, then it’s not just critics who say so, is it?
...” to manipulate the population” .. Yes or no?  Proveable by the FACTs that Palestinians have been prevented by the wall from getting sick people to hospitals on time, been prevented from passing freely from neighborhood to neighborhood, been handicapped when they hold jobs outside the wall etc. These “preventions” are fact, aren’t they?  Why is it, then, that “critics say” is inserted, as if such crimes and harrassments are only a matter of someone’s opinion? 

Sorry, but this is a particularly gagging matter of thoughtless journalistic repetition of deceit, in my opinion.

Report this

By Shingo, March 15, 2010 at 5:30 pm Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

Your dishonesty is so obvious, it’s embarrassing. Did you even look at the Mark Regev interview? If you had, you would have realized that Mark Regev was not the source of those figures but the Israeli government itself. May I suggest you go back and look at the report again.  The source cited in that report was non other that the Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Centre.

Are you now going to tell me that the Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Centre are just pundits with a secret agenda?

You can ramble all you like about what agendas people have an what not, but that’s not the issue here is it?  The debate we are having is about what is factual or otherwise. 

You pretend as though I have not produced a source, but I have and your only response was that you didn’t believe it because you have friends in Eilat.  That’s beyond pathetic and utterly desperate.

I have already cited a source, and Israeli source.  Now where is yours?

Your stalling.  Your lies have been exposed and now you’re simply running away and waffling because your only other option is to admit you are a liar.

I do fell sorry for you.  It’s difficult being a Hasbara agent these days, because your lies as so easily exposed.

Don’t wish me luck Go Right Young Man.  I don’t need it because I have the facts.

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By Go Right Young Man, March 15, 2010 at 4:42 pm Link to this comment

Shingo,

There is the world of pundits and politics and there is a world of people talking, working, living and dying.  One of those worlds is real.  The other not.  It’s important to gain an understanding of why people say the things they do. Media consultant Mark Regev, for example.

I will never feel beholden to produce for you what you will not do yourself. 

Good luck to you in all things.

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By gerard, March 15, 2010 at 3:50 pm Link to this comment

The Other Israel is the Newsletter of the Israeli Committee for Israeli-Palestinian Peace.
  This publication tells of dedicated on-site efforts of peace-makers in the face of tremendous odds and gives indications of ways to help.  It is probably closer to the current truth than most news sources.
  It can be Googled by title.  It is in the process
of archiving past issues, not yet up-do-date.
  It portrays the careful efforts—successes and failures—of loving hands from all sides of the conflict, deteremined to reweave, thread by thread, the shattered community of the so-called “Holy Land” in defiance of propaganda, hate, fear and injustice.
  Next to it, AIPAC is “sound and fury signifying nothing”.  Too bad US government supports the wrong people with the wrong kind of “arms” because that support is not helping but making things worse.

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By balkas, March 15, 2010 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

The % of people with criminal minds in any people is my guess. The % of people who are not naturally criminal, but made to behave in a criminal way is also a guess.

The study of indigenous societies suggest strongly that 99.99 of them behaved just right.

And so did, i think ur and my ancestors just some 2k yrs ago.
The difference in numbers now and that of the euros of 2 k yrs ago is, i suggest, solely due to priestly-educational misteachings.

I’m confident to say that 98% + of people in any land are innately quite sane. Thanks for ur comment.
Bozh!

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By radson, March 15, 2010 at 3:02 pm Link to this comment

Prime Minister Netanyahu is playing ‘dumb’ at the moment ,imagine, the Israeli Junior members of the bureaucracy have unilaterally implemented the East Jerusalem housing project during the midst of
VP Biden’s visit .PM Netanyahu is acquiescing to Washington’s demands that an inquiry be conducted with regards to the Timing of this unfortunate announcement ,which by the way Bibi categorizes as being
‘innocent’ in itself.The ‘G’ word concerning Turkey is beginning to have a more significant meaning in this geopolitical morass and perhaps the ‘other role ’ of Nato,besides the one that went down with the Wall is starting to cause some hesitation amongst the members.Is the possibility of another ‘Intifada’ being encouraged by these Timely shenanigans in order to once again detract something that has never been on track
to begin with ,yet at the same time promote America’s righteousness to the world that the ‘Road Map ’ to peace is the only conscientious way of achieving the said goal ,just ask the Chinese how accurate US maps
are -Belgrade being an example-.These Proximity talks ,or is it more accurate to describe them as ‘Proxy’ talks will subject the Israeli citizens that are vying for a reasonable solution to be demeaned by their own
leadership as the opponents of ‘laissez faire’  Big Brother Corporations ,which are making a killing with this war on ‘Terror’ in the name of peace.

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