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Israel Crackdown Puts Liberal Jews on the Spot

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Posted on Mar 15, 2010
AP / Muhammed Muheisen

Israeli soldiers take position next to the highly controversial security barrier, which has been used, critics say, to seize Palestinian land and manipulate the population.

By Chris Hedges

The Israeli government, its brutal war crimes in Gaza exposed in detail in the U.N. report by Justice Richard Goldstone, has implemented a series of draconian measures to silence and discredit dissidents, leading intellectuals and human rights organizations inside and outside Israel that are accused—often falsely—of assisting Goldstone’s U.N. investigators. The government of Benjamin Netanyahu is attempting to shut down Israel’s premier human rights organizations, including B’Tselem, the New Israel Fund (NIF) and the Association for Civil Rights in Israel. It is busy expelling or excluding peace activists and foreign nationals from the Palestinian territories. The campaign, if left unchecked, will be as catastrophic for Palestinians as it will be for Israel.

The Goldstone report, which is over 500 pages, investigated Israel’s 22-day air and ground assault on Gaza that took place from Dec. 27, 2008, to Jan. 18, 2009. The United Nations and the European Parliament have endorsed the report. The report found that Israel used disproportionate military force against Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip while failing to take adequate precautions to protect the civilian population against the military assault. The Israeli attack killed 1,434 people, including 960 civilians, according to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights. More than 6,000 homes were destroyed or damaged, leaving behind some $3 billion in destruction in one of the poorest areas on Earth. No Israelis were killed by Hamas rockets fired into Israel during the assault. The report did not limit itself to the 22-day attack; rather, it went on to indict the occupation itself. It examines the beginning of the occupation and condemns Israel for the border closures, the blockade and for the wall or security barrier in the West Bank. It has two references to the right of return, investigates Israeli torture and criticizes the willful destruction of the Palestinian economy.


“The impact of the Goldstone report is tremendous,” the Middle East scholar Norman Finkelstein said when I reached him in New York. “It marks and catalyzes the breakup of the Diaspora Jewish support for Israel because Goldstone is the classical Diaspora Jew. He is a lawyer and upholder of human rights and a liberal. He has distinguished himself in the field of law and he is also a lover of Zion. He calls himself a Zionist. His mother was an activist in the Zionist movement. His daughter did aliyah. He sits on the board of governors of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. He has an honorary degree from the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. He has said over and over again that he is a Zionist. He believes Jews have a right to a state in Palestine. His is a mostly emblematic profile of the classically liberal Jew.”

Liberal has a distinct connotation,” Finkelstein went on. “It means to believe in the rule of law. It means to believe in international institutions. It means to believe in human rights. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are liberal organizations. What the Goldstone phenomenon registers and catalyzes is the fact that it is impossible to reconcile liberal convictions with Israel’s conduct; too much is now known about the history of the conflict and the human rights record and the so-called peace process. It is impossible to be both liberal and defend Israeli policy. That was the conflict that confronted Goldstone. I very much doubt he wanted to condemn Israel.”

“Israeli liberalism always had a function in Israeli society,” said Finkelstein, whose new book, “This Time We Went Too Far,” examines the Israeli attack a year ago on Gaza. “When I talk about liberals I mean people like A.B. Yehoshua, David Grossman and Amos Oz. Their function was to issue these anguished criticisms of Israel which not only extenuated Israeli crimes but exalted Israeli crimes. ‘Isn’t it beautiful, the Israeli soul, how it is anguished over what it has done.’ It is the classic case of having your cake and eating it. Not only were any crimes being committed extenuated, but they were beautiful. And now something strange happened. Along comes a Jewish liberal and he says, ‘Spare me your tears. I am only interested in the law.’ ”

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“Goldstone did not perform the role of the Jewish liberal,” Finkelstein said, “which is to be anguished, but no consequences. And all of a sudden Israeli liberal Jews are discovering, hey, there are consequences for committing war crimes. You don’t just get to walk into the sunset and look beautiful. They can’t believe it. They are genuinely shocked. ‘Aren’t our tears consequences enough?’ Aren’t our long eyes and broken hearts consequences enough?’ ‘No,” he said, ‘you have to go to the criminal court.’ ”

The campaign against Israeli dissidents has taken the form of venomous denunciations of activists and jurists, including Justice Goldstone. It includes a bill before the Israeli parliament, the Knesset, which will make it possible to imprison the leaders of Israeli human rights groups if they fail to comply with crippling new registration conditions. Human rights activists from outside Israel who work in the Palestinian territories are being rounded up and deported. The government is refusing to issue work visas to employees of 150 NGOs operating in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, including Oxfam, Save the Children and Médecins Sans Frontières (Doctors Without Borders). The new tourist visas effectively bar these employees from Palestinian territory under Israeli occupation. Professor Naomi Chazan, the Israeli head of the NIF, which has donors in the United States, is being publicly vilified by ultranationalist groups such as Im Tirzu.  Foreign donors to the NIF, as well as other human rights groups, are being pressured by Israeli officials to halt contributions. Billboards have sprouted up around Tel Aviv and Jerusalem with a grotesque caricature of Chazan, who has been branded by groups such as Im Tirzu as an agent for Hamas and Iran, with a horn growing from her forehead. “Naomi-Goldstone-Chazan” the caption on the billboard reads. Im Tirzu, the front organization behind many of the attacks, includes among its financial backers the John Hagee Ministries and the New York Central Fund, which also support extremist settler organizations.


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By Shingo, March 18, 2010 at 3:55 pm Link to this comment

firefly,

I take your point and take back my criticism.

Iran doesn’t need any deterrent against Israel and the US. The country next door, with 1 third the land mass, 1 third the population and no army to speak of was able to bring the US to it’s knees.

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By firefly, March 18, 2010 at 3:38 pm Link to this comment

Shingo,

It’s quite stunning how you can deduce the complete opposite of my meaning from what I said.

My point was that there are no heroes in modern warfare, because the big guys (Israel and the US) with enough WMD to destroy planet earth, now ONLY conduct war against the defenceless, poor and the vulnerable (the Palestinians, the Afghans etc) instead of attacking a nation of equal strength (as in the past). It is for this very reason that thousands and thousands of US troops were sitting in Kuwait 3 months before they attacked Iraq, while the UN weapons inspectors were looking for WMDs. If Iraq had had WMDs, Saddam Hussein would have had a fantastic opportunity to wipe out half the US military. The Bush Administration probably knew this was proof enough that there were no WMDs in Iraq. It was therefore defenceless and easy to attack.

According to many Arabs, the US and Israel are cowards, because they don’t dare attack a nuclear armed country. This is one reason why some strategists believe Iran may be trying to arm itself – literally to create a deterrent against Israel and the US. So modern warfare is asymmetrical and as a result cowardly Israel flattened the weaker, more vulnerable and worst of all, trapped Palestinians.

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By PatrickHenry, March 18, 2010 at 3:29 pm Link to this comment

“A verbal thug”, now thats a crass statement.

Fatah is a poodle of Israel as evidenced by the latest extrajudicial assassination in Dubai with Fatah’s participation.  Hamas was the invention of Israel as a counter to Fatah and I find it ironic that Israel now needs Fatah to counter Hamas. 

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html

Since April 2007 I have been an active poster at TD and as others who post here am very impressed by Shingo’s ability to counter the zionist claptrap by making well rounded and documented points and counterpoints.

May he keep up the good work.

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By Shingo, March 18, 2010 at 3:19 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Part 1 of 2

“Shingo is a brow beater.  A verbal thug as if only the world according to Shingo is the only world
there is.”

Reading your diatribe reminded me of an article that appeared in the Jews sans frontier blog entitled “How to make the case for Israel and win”. It came down to this:
•  We rock
•  They suck
•  You suck
•  Everything sucks

You appear to be somewhere between staged 3 and 4.

Like I often say, you are entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.  Like the Berlin Wall, if your world is based on a false premise, it’s going to come down sooner or later.

I’m not going to let bigots like you present the false argument that this is al the fault of Islam.  It’s blatantly obvious that you are a Zionist and only interested is peddling propaganda.  Like GRYM, radson and Walterbard, you can’t bring yourself to acknowledge the elephant in the room, the Israeli enforcing of a brutal and oppressive occupation for more than 40 years,  much less accept the Palestinians right to resits.  You discuss the 23 year long illegal and unhumane blockade of Gaza,  or that the last time Israel was on the receiving end of a blockade, it went to war over it.  Hell, GRYM can’t even admit that the 2.5 million Arabs in the Wets Bank are human beings and is more outraged over a child in Israel being injured by a stray rocket than the 400 children massacred by Israel in Gaza.

Those pesky Palestinians are just Islamists who are champing at the bit to get naked with the 72 virgins that wait them in paradise.

Israel is not ancient.  It’s 60 years old.  Israel is to ancient Israel what Rome is to the Roman Empire.  The difference being that we have evidence that the Roman Empire existed.

When the Jews were searching for a homeland, they were not just considering Palestine, but Africa and Australia too, so the fact they chose Palestine has nothing to do with some ancient tribe that may or may not have existed.

ITW and I hold no pretensions about who is reading this blog, but evidently it’s important enough for you to keep mentioning it.  My motive is to get the information out there, even if to one person at a time.  As you can seen there are a number on this blog who appreciate the information, which in turn will assist them in debating this topic with others. 

What angers you is that the tide has turned against you.  In 2002, the comments section on the NYT or the Washington Post would be dominated with the kind of pro Zionist garbage we’ve seen from you.  Today,  Zionist shills like you are largely outnumbered because the public is sick to the stomach over the injustice of Israeli policies and militarism. 

You, GYRM , radson and walterbard can knock yourselves out presenting another reality,  pretending that we haven’t had this perspective shoved down our throats for decades.  What irks you is that you used to get away with making your baseless assertions.  GYRM is definitely struggling. He can’t even come to terms with statistics provided by the Israeli government.
All you had to do was employ mindless terms like terrorism, sprinkled with the occasional reference to the Holocaust, and BS about Camp David, and not have to explain it or back it up with evidence. Not you guys are screwed. You’re being challenged and you’re finding to your horror that no one is buying it anymore.

ITW is one of the faew pro Israeli bloggers I have come across that doesn’t fit the mold, because unlike your little gang, he is sincere in his desire for justice, even if it inflicts a little pain on Israel.  I respect ITW, because even if he is wrong about a point, he is not afraid not admit it.  For him, winning isn’t about trying to spinning current events or conflating history, it’s about coming up with a solution and getting rid of the dead wood.  His is the only approach that will save Israel.

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By Shingo, March 18, 2010 at 3:09 pm Link to this comment

Part 2 of 2

“It wasn’t because Palestinians in Gaza loved them that Hamas won the election in 2006. It was because they hated Fatah…”

You’re absolutely right.  It’s also the reason why Israel insist on dealing with Fatah and not Hamas.  They know that enough dollar bills will get what they want from Fatah. 

Of course, the same could be said of Likud and Kadima. Israel voted for Likud, because they were sick of Kadima and Olmert’s corruption, though it seems every leader since Rabin has been plagued with corruption.  In all countries, elections comes down to choosing the lesser of two evils.

Hamas are no angels, but they have numerous factions, the militant one and the political.  The political is pragmatic and much more prone to moderation, but violence plays into the hands of the militants. 

“Hamas has been deceptive and always will be a totalitarian movement that emulates Iranian imperialism.”

Imperialism?  How many countries has Iran attacked and invade in the last 300 years? How many military bases do they have sprinkled throughout the world?

Who is Iran occupying?  Who’s air, alnd and sea is Iran blockading?

“History shows its codes of authoritarian control are indelible.  So who will speak well on behalf of the Palestinians?”

This is right out of the Hasbara for Dummys manual.  When debating with Israeli critics, always make sure to differentiate between the Palestinians and Hamas.  Like it or nor, hams are Palstinaisn and were elected to Palestinians, so you’d best give up that carnard.

The same goes for Israel. Liberal Zionists reflexively pin the blame on the right, as though they themselves are not complicit.  I once heard some describe the difference between right wing and liberal Zionists.  When the right wing Zionists insist on driving out the Arabs from the West Bank.  The liberal Zionists will demand it be done with air condition coaches.

“ Does anyone actually think this is possible between Jews and Muslims?”

As the president of Brazil said during his visit to Israel recently, there are Arabs and Jews living peacefully side by side in Brazil.  25,000 Jews live comfortably in Iran refuse to leave, even when bribed to migrate to Israel.  So yes, it is not only possible, it is a reality.

“It is a moot matter who was in the Sinai first.  History and science tells who was.  It certainly wasn’t the Palestinians who did not even exist
until the 20th century.”

I can’t believe you’re bother recycling this mind numbing garbage. 

Actualy the matetr is far from moot.

Towns like Jericho date back 4 or 5 millennia, long before Judaism was even conceived.  Tel Aviv University scholar Shlomo Zand has revealed that when the Judeans were vanquished during the Roman wars, the remaining inhabitants of ancient Judea remained, converted to Islam and assimilating with their conquerors when Arabs subjugated the area. They became the progenitors of today’s Palestinian Arabs. The Palestinians have been there at least as long as the Jews, and the fact that 85% of them have Jewish ancestry proves it.

The idea that arabs and Jews could be related pobably makes a racist like you sick to your stomach.
“I think Go Right Young Man holds the higher ground on this forum.”

That would be the ame GRYM who denies that Arabs are human and regards the injury to 1 Israeli child to be a a bigger tragedy than the deaths of 400 Palestinian children?  If there was any doubt that you were a vile bigot Shen, there isn’t any longer.

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By Leefeller, March 18, 2010 at 1:40 pm Link to this comment

Having been portrayed by others as a professional card carrying bigot, my position in life has become remarkably changed, for I have found my honesty in accepting the curse of being born that way and admitting it has made my life a hot fudge sundae with a cherry on top.  The urges of bigotry used to be most troubling for me, but coming out of the closet, accepting, even embracing my bigotry for the reality it is, I must say I sleep much better at night, though the Tequila may help?

Several forms of therapy which I find helpful as a card carrying bigot are, drawing swastikas with pen and ink feels good and soon I plan to try watercolors. Another form of enlightenment is spending time in the wood shop, I build crosses and and then burn them in my barn, someday I plan to move the burning out to my front lawn, but first I need to move my refrigerator full of beer. 

My new found euphoria, must be like others finding the light and prompts me to want to share this with others of like mind. It was my hope to gather membership and develop a higher order of bigots, unfortunately this has already been dashed. 

Even though this thread alone seems like the horn of plenty for potential bigot supported membership. It is with grave disappointment and sadness, I find other bigots refuse to acknowledge their location in the scheme of things and will not come out of the closet trumpeting their bigotry as I. Blame may be on the cursed military with their inane don’t ask don’t tell.

So it is with limited compassion, I am calling all bigots should you ever wish to remove the albatross from around those noticeably thick protruding foreheads , please come out of the closet.

Robert, you should be delighted to see, I did not mention Vietnam.

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By Shingo, March 18, 2010 at 1:04 pm Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

“It simply does not serve your “purpose” to listen to all sides.

Your are predictable and unoriginal.”

Thank you. You could not have paid me a better compliment.

You seen, facts and truth are unoriginal. To come up with an original argument would imply being creative and producing information out of whole cloth, which by defnition would require having to lie.

So I’ll happily leave the orginlaity to you GRYM (i.e lying and spin).  Liars need to be roginal to fool others and conflate.

I’ll stick to the facts, and truth and remain decidedly unoriginal.

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By sacred cow, March 18, 2010 at 12:04 pm Link to this comment

TAO,
That is powerful medicine. Civilization developed randomly based on the availability of domesticable plants - the Fertile Crescent of Mesopotamia (the Levant that is the sight of so much incivility today) had wheat and barley and developed a writing system. The only other place on this planet where writing developed independently was with the Mayan, who domesticated corn to create an empire more advanced than Dark Age Europe with larger cities and a calendar that acknowledged an earth that wobbled on its axis. The Mayan’s had no cattle to domesticate however, and thus no immunity to cowpox (smallpox) - otherwise history would be different. Or at least the capitalist contagion that infected the New World would have been delayed and Columbus - his ships financed by Jewish trader/merchants and his navigation tools usurped from 700 years of Muslim rule on the Iberian Peninsula - would not have sharpened his knives on the Arawak or severed their limbs when they could produce no gold. Yes, my noble friend, the people have been fooled. Imperialism, whether in the New World or in Palestine, is the sin of capitalism - a product of its aggressive thirst for profit.

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By Russian Paul, March 18, 2010 at 12:03 pm Link to this comment

Just wanted to give another kudos to Shingo for his impressive use of FACTS to
combat the mindless propaganda written here by Go Right Young Man and others
who come across as fools.
And I applaud you for keeping your cool when talkign to Shenonymous, who just
sounds like one of the most arrogant, embarrassingly-uninformed of spinsters.
what a bunch of slippery worms these zionist fanatics are.

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By Epstein, March 18, 2010 at 11:42 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shingo
eratum:

It wouldn’t surprise me if AIPAC was watching this thread of yours.

Report this

By TAO Walker, March 18, 2010 at 11:35 am Link to this comment

Even as the already much-too-often-harrowed “Holy-Land” gets virtually re-plowed here all-over-again (and to no discernibly beneficial effects, either….again), Inherit The Wind sketches-out for us fairly succinctly (back down the ‘thread’ a ways) the base motives and brutal methods characteristic of the DEAD END ‘dominance’ paradigm that is driving to their doom the victims/perpetrators “over there,” too, just as the damned thing is doing and has always done everywhere.  That he seems to intend his synopsis, however, as a kind of “everybody-does-it” defense of the peculiarly anglo/american exercise in rapine and pillage visited upon us here on Turtle Island, and cites some allegedly ‘homegrown’ examples as justifying proof, it might be good to clear-up a few common misCONceptions he parrots, perhaps in the (probably accurate) belief they’re widely shared among his fella ‘n’ gal members of the general inmate population.

For starters, none of us surviving free wild Peoples have ever been known to make any excuses for those whom Inherit The Wind cites among our nearer ‘ethnic’ kin (like the Maya, Inca, Aztec) as having CONtracted then succumbed-to the “civilization” disease.  Those bloody-handed expressions of the malady are no less pathologically idiotic than are any of their CONtemporary or latter-day equivalents.  Unlike most of these ‘modern’ versions, though, “invasion” was not a part of their ‘process.’  Rather, those Peoples were infected (by the same retro-viral ‘carriers’ that got-to susceptible populations all around the World) where they were already living, and simply erected their ‘altars’ in their own “homelands.”

Next, this Old Indian was not suggesting, in the earlier observations which apparently struck a nerve in Inherit The Wind, that the ‘justice’ even now falling-upon theamericanpeople had anything to do with the (actually quite minimal) effects of their foolhardy behavior on us Natives here.  Our tame Sisters and Brothers occupying Turtle Island beneath their privateering banner (‘Old Gory’) are suffering, and will continue to suffer, the naturally inevitable consequences of falling so far short of what they’ve all-along claimed to be their own exalted principles and ‘superior’ ideals.  They, too, like so many of their counterparts everywhere and in all times, have stupidly tripped-up on the fatal mistake of thinking some “god” has issued them, because they’re so divinely “exceptional,” a license-to-kill.

Finally, fairly-or-not, the ‘receivers’ of ill-gotten gains (like Inherit The Wind’s own ancestral late-comers to these shores) inevitably buy-into whatever unpleasant repercussions always follow from the original transgressions….“the sins of the fathers,.... etc.” rule.  Maybe in his ‘case’ the ‘punishment’ is no worse than having to half-live in that “toxic” swamp called “New Jersey”....for which he has at-least this Old Man’s sincere sympathies. 

In-other-words, all you ‘self’-proclaimed americans, you’ve been HAD.

HokaHey!

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, March 18, 2010 at 11:16 am Link to this comment

Wow again…weefeller,

Your last post was almost cute and funny! Chuckle…chuckle!

Surprised that you didn’t mention being in Vietnam…or something along that line.

Don’t you worry…you’ll “never” see my head in any toilet. How could I when your head is always down there for those expert repairs!

Just glad to hear that you are toilet handyman…weefeller! Once you get over the stench, you got it licked!

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By Leefeller, March 18, 2010 at 10:45 am Link to this comment

Robert:

As for impressing people on this thread, let it be known, I relinquish all my impressing to Robert, for the profoundness and wisdom authenticated from his comments and factoids which I find most underwhelming.

As for being a handyman, I am quite qualified to replace Roberts toilet, even more so, than Joe the unplumber, but first I would advised Robert to remove his head from it.

Almost always and sometimes Robert?

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By Epstein, March 18, 2010 at 10:41 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shingo

Watch Out dude.

You realize this is being monitored by AIPAC?
It would surprise me at all if any pro Zionist comments on here were from AIPAC members.

AIPAC scour the media to counteract any way they can anti Zionist, anti right wing policy Israel is executing.  Usual tactic of misdirection and subject changing. 
I guess the 3 Billion Dollars a year isn’t wasted.

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By Amon Drool, March 18, 2010 at 10:12 am Link to this comment

shingo…after reading goright’s last post, one can see that the guy is obviously woozy and on the ropes…u told him that it served no purpose for u to get outraged when others presented their side of the argument.  and he couldn’t even comprehend what u said.

picture a muhammed ali fight and a mike tyson fight.  ali sees a guy’s knees are buckling and he’s going to go down.  ali makes a few menacing gestures, but lets the guy just fall.  tyson on the other hand gets in that last un-needed punch.  we all saw what happened in this fight…don’t be like mike.

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By sacred cow, March 18, 2010 at 10:11 am Link to this comment

Shingo,
I have been following this thread for two days and want to express my appreciation to you for fighting for truth and justice in the world. I have no doubt that were this 1938, you would be defending the rights of German Jewry against the atrocities of Nazi Terror. I salute you for your scholarship and your passion, and I encourage you to keep up the fight against the racism and hatred, the terror and lies, and the profound injustice of likudian zionism.

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By Robert, March 18, 2010 at 9:32 am Link to this comment

Wooow…leefeller

You almost said something here and almost…maybe...tried to impress someone on TD!

You are almost a good handyman for someone!

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By Leefeller, March 18, 2010 at 9:20 am Link to this comment

Robert?

“But, almost NEVER do they try to prove the information wrong!”

Interesting, to almost never prove information is wrong, would mean it must sometimes be right?

So, “almost” is defined to mean sometimes, this seems to need a little help!

  Moving along, one could conjure up a factoid or two, sort of as proof in the pudding sort of speak. Presentation of a number or percentage of “almost s” to “never’s”, could be in order?

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By omop, March 18, 2010 at 8:46 am Link to this comment

Robert, March 18 at 11:27 am #

Well Known Zionist’s Tactics.

I could not have expressed it better.

But then what can one expect from individuals that claim that Goldstone is an
evil man and anti semitic; So does a certain Dershowitz claim all that do not
toe his line are “antisemitic”. Several European websites have uncovered reports
that Elie Weisel was never in any nazi concentration camp.

A friend who also happens to be of the Jewish faith suggests that such
individuals suffer from some form of PTSD.

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By Robert, March 18, 2010 at 8:42 am Link to this comment

Petraeus Confirms Link Between Israel-Palestine and U.S. Security

By Jim Lobe

“March 17, 2010 “Information Clearing House”— In prepared testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee this morning, Gen. David Petraeus delivered the message that, as we’ve been writing over the last few days, Mark Parry reported on Saturday. Here’s the money quote:

  Insufficient progress toward a comprehensive Middle East peace. The enduring hostilities between Israel and some of its neighbors present distinct challenges to our ability to advance our interests in the AOR. Israeli-Palestinian tensions often flare into violence and large-scale armed confrontations. The conflict foments anti-American sentiment, due to a perception of U.S. favoritism for Israel. Arab anger over the Palestinian question limits the strength and depth of U.S. partnerships with governments and peoples in the AOR and weakens the legitimacy of moderate regimes in the Arab world. Meanwhile, al-Qaeda and other militant groups exploit that anger to mobilize support. The conflict also gives Iran influence in the Arab world through its clients, Lebanese Hizballah and Hamas.

One can expect that some of the senators in attendance will want to follow up with questions on this, and it will be interesting to see how Petraeus elaborates. Part of the hearing, however, will be in closed session, so we’ll have to wait to see what leaks from that.

In any event, Petraeus’ willingness to publicly — and in uniform with all those decorations on his chest — make the connection between Israeli treatment of the Palestinians and the spread of “anti-American sentiment” and the deterioration of the U.S. position in the region — a connection which, of course, is completely evident to any casual observer of Middle East — marks what can only be considered a major breakthrough in the debate over the relationship between the United States and Israel.


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25010.htm

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By Robert, March 18, 2010 at 8:27 am Link to this comment

Well Known Zionist’s Tactics

If the person is a non-Jew, they cry, “You’re anti-semetic”, Israel hater… which is nothing more than a smokescreen to hide their deceptive actions.


- First, they ignore the facts, hoping the information will not be given widespread attention/distribution.

- If the information starts reaching too many people, they ridicule the information and the person or persons giving the information.

- If that doesn’t work, their next step is character assassination / character attack.

- If that doesn’t work, their next step(s)  is/are: change the topic, sidetrack the issue(s), deceptive zionist propaganda…etc… 
 
But, almost NEVER do they try to prove the information wrong!

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By Shenonymous, March 18, 2010 at 8:17 am Link to this comment

Shingo is a brow beater.  A verbal thug as if only the world according
to Shingo is the only world there is. The fact is the problem in Israel is
ancient and it is likely there will be no ‘solution.’  You, and ITW, can
postulate all you want but the only eyes who see it are the residents of
TD.  What does it matter with respect to the reality of Israelis and
Palestinians what you or ITW think or GYRM or myself?  If it makes you
sleep at night feeling self-righteous, it is your personal strategy to do
whatever it takes to trick yourself to think you have even the outline of
the truth. GYRM certainly does not rant, but obviously has tried to put
some sobriety on the dialogue just as radson does, and walterbard
thank goodness is an equal to your diatribes, Shingo, who can bring a
counterperspective to the forum table.

I am reminded of the tv pundits who sit every morning and pronounce
their take on the actions of nations under an illusion they are doing
anything important.  They bluff themselves into believing they make a
difference.  They argue just as you only you are more adolescently
virulent about it, very much like the Limbaughs and Becks.  Yes, there
is much hatred toward Jews on this forum and if ITW doesn’t want to
admit it then others will.  The only audience you rant to are those who
post on Truthdig.  That is the reality of your limitation.

It wasn’t because Palestinians in Gaza loved them that Hamas won the
election in 2006. It was because they hated Fatah, who had stolen too
much money from the people and socked it away in Swiss bank
accounts.  Hamas had directed many small social activities and that put
them in the good graces of the people.

The Palestinian people only had damaging choices between Fatah and
Hamas and no alternative party is available.  If the Palestinian people
want to be in charge of their own destiny, then they need better
options.  It is odd that no leader arises from within the general
Palestinian population to speak intelligently and with authority on their
behalf.  Is it because the intelligensia of the Palestinians have been
exiled?  Exiled by the thuggery of both Fatah and Hamas? 

It is hard to see that Fatah could ever regain credibility and Hamas is
nothing but a gang of war-mongers.  If they sound like they have taken
a more subdued position, everyone knows who faces reality they do it
for tactical reasons. Hamas has been deceptive and always will be a
totalitarian movement that emulates Iranian imperialism.  It maintains a
close relationship, out of an existential dependence, with Iran and
Hezbollah in Lebanon.  There is nothing democratic about Hamas.
History shows its codes of authoritarian control are indelible.  So who
will speak well on behalf of the Palestinians?  Who does not have
poison in their fangs or dynamite in their hands?  Israel has their
madmen of the right-wing extremists as headed by Netanyahu that
cannot be satisfied, even if there is a detachment in Israel who wants
peace.  How then can any agreement be crafted?  World Security
Network seems to think it is possible but it is simply wishful thinking. 
They continue to spin their wheels swirling in intellectual fancy.  But
even they don’t realize they don’t have much influence in the real
world.  It was Hoffer who said that a war is only won after you have
turned your enemy into your friend.  Does anyone actually think this is
possible between Jews and Muslims?

It is a moot matter who was in the Sinai first.  History and science tells
who was.  It certainly wasn’t the Palestinians who did not even exist
until the 20th century.  He and I do not always agree and we have had
some strong conflicting words elsewhere, but I think Go Right Young
Man holds the higher ground on this forum.

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By Go Right Young Man, March 18, 2010 at 7:44 am Link to this comment

“I am not outraged at the suggestion that of listening to anyone tell me about their side of the conflict. It serves no purpose.”

Bingo, Shingo!  You finally came right out with it.  It took you far too long.  It simply does not serve your “purpose” to listen to all sides.

Your are predictable and unoriginal.

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By Leefeller, March 18, 2010 at 7:37 am Link to this comment

Facts can be useful, sometimes as useful and accurate as counting the numbers of hairs on a horses ass. My question is, wouldn’t it be more prudent wear a hat?

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By Go Right Young Man, March 18, 2010 at 7:36 am Link to this comment

Shingo, “I eat people like you for breakfast GRYM.”

-

You are a very young and brash individual who happens to be so full of your own worth, coupled with your unmasked hatred, that you simply cannot see straight.  You have been bested by almost everyone on this thread, however, you see otherwise….Now THAT is funny….LOL

-

You love to hark your youthful facts. smile

The fact is I have played and toyed with you for the last 24 Hrs.  You have unwittingly shown others exactly what I wanted them to see.  You have been a very useful tool for my purpose.

You’re not ready for prime time, Young Man.

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By Shingo, March 18, 2010 at 7:01 am Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

Your rants have gone so far off topic, you’re in a parallel universe.

Í am only concerned with facts.  Facts stand the test of time.  They dont ‘need anyone to interpret them and they don’t have two sides. I am not outraged at the suggestion that of listening to anyone tell me about their side of the conflict. It serves no purpose.

The conflict is 60 years old, not centuries old.  Do you thin that repeating the lie often enough will make anyone believe it?  Don’t bother.

I have never quoted Zawahiri, Nasrallah, or Bin Laden. But speaking of Bin laden, I just read the testimony of Gen David Petraeus, testifying before the US Senate Armed Services Committee today, on which he states that Israel is empowering Al Qaeda.
How’s that for irony GRYM.  It is the policies that you are defending and supporting hat are helping Bin Laden, not mine.

Chew on that one for a while.

“  He loses every “debate” on this forum when he copiously resorts to highly emotional personal attacks.”

Actually I tend to combine emotion with an abundance of facts, which is how I wiped the floor with you.  This is why you gave up the topic of the Gaza war.  You couldn’t deliver and I crushed you. 

I eat people like you for breakfast GRYM.

I just smacked your fellow traveller walterbard around too.  He’s sulking right now, though to his credit, he does try to stick to the topic and use references unlike you. 

“It’s the surest sign that an individual is having a hard time coming to grips with their own lack of conviction.”

No, the surest sign that that an individual is having a hard time coming to grips with their own lack of conviction is when they ruin way when asked to producelinks to back up their argument, like you for example.  In fact, your behaviour has been utterly bizarre and strange.  You’ve often resorted to repeating the same post over and over again like someone with dementia.

And now you’re back from your psychotic episode, trying to be extremely pleasant and reasonable, even philosophical at time, because as we know, the Hasbara manual tells you to never lose your temper and remain calm.

Yoú see GRYM, I know your tricks, because I’ve debated too many like you.  You’re not clever.  Youre not informed or well prepared for this topic.

“Kill the Jew and the world miraculously becomes a better place.  Deplorable!”

And what no post from GRYM would be complete without a massive lie and straw men combined into one flas accusation.

This is coming from someone who doesn’t regard regard the 2,5 million Aras in the West Bank to be human beings. You’re no doubt from the Menachem Begin school, that considers Palestinians to be 2 legged beasts.

Tell me GRYM, do you just hate Arbs or all goy in general?

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By Shingo, March 18, 2010 at 6:43 am Link to this comment

walterbard,

“But before one can cut and paste
one has to specifically know where to look.”

Not when you get all your talking pints from the same Hasbara sources all the other Zionist hacks get them.  Your talking points are so old and worn out, you can find them on bumper stickers.

“If you search old newspapers you’ll find that Israeli Intelligence knew about the attack at least 36 hours in advance.”

If they’d had 36 hours advanced knowledge, they would have been prepared.  They weren’t

“Nixon did send arms but if you read about it he also
tried to stop the Israeli advance because it was against American interests to have Egypt totally defeated.”

Israel were in no positon to totally defeat Egypt.  They were saved at the 11th hours by the shipments of arms from Nixon.

Why would they have needed those armns if they had Egypt right where they wanted them?

If Nixon was so concerned about Israel totally defeating Egypt, why did he send arms at all?

Your propagadna simply doesn’t pas logic 101, though you probably failed that subject.

“Also analysis after the war revealed
that Israel could have repelled the attacks but at a far greater cost. Look it up.”

I have, and you’re wrong.

“Anyway I’ll leave you to your delusions”

You threatened to do that before.  Just like your phoney talking points, your all talk, and the talk is BS.

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By Go Right Young Man, March 18, 2010 at 6:27 am Link to this comment

I pray people are following closely the twisted logic and vitriolic hatred by the much mislead and naive, Shingo.  Nothing has outraged this young man more than when I implore him to listen to both sides in the centuries old Arab/Israeli conflict.  He appears outraged at the suggestion.

It’s important to note that this misguided young man echos, item by item, line by line, talking point by talking point the much publicized opinions of Zawahiri, Nasrallah and bin Laden.

-

I have seen others praise this hate-filled individual on his ability to “debate”.  But he misses the simple truth while he sponges up such praise.  He loses every “debate” on this forum when he copiously resorts to highly emotional personal attacks.  It’s the surest sign that an individual is having a hard time coming to grips with their own lack of conviction.

-

I hope people here see that Shingo cares nothing of the Palestinian people.  He, not unlike many others, shamelessly uses the suffering of the Palestinians for his, not so subtle, agenda. 

Kill the Jew and the world miraculously becomes a better place.  Deplorable!

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By walterbard, March 18, 2010 at 6:25 am Link to this comment

Cut and paste? Yes. But before one can cut and paste
one has to specifically know where to look. Google
helps but you have to know what specific facts are
important. For that you already must have read newspapers and histories. Do I have these materials
at my fingertips, no. But i remenber that they exist
and then search for them on the net.

Israel was not taken by suprise. If you search old newspapers you’ll find that Israeli Intelligence knew about the attack at least 36 hours in advance.
Here’s a fact few know about. The Egyptian attack didn’t come because Israeli security was laxer during Yom Kippur but because the water level in the Suez made at that time made it easier to cross.

Nixon did send arms but if you read about it he also
tried to stop the Israeli advance because it was against American interests to have Egypt totally defeated.  Also analysis after the war revealed
that Israel could have repelled the attacks but at a far greater cost. Look it up.

Anyway I’ll leave you to your delusions

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By radson, March 18, 2010 at 5:59 am Link to this comment

Bobadi

Your last post is relevant concerning the ‘need to maintain ’ a so-called enemy ,in order to run a sick economy.When the Berlin Wall fell to the ground and the Russians conceded defeat ,it became some what
of an imperative to seek new ways ‘which includes ‘finding and or creating new enemies to fuel the MIC .The vacuum that was created with the fall of the USSR in Central Asia and the emergence of Brand New
Nation States become the new playground. The war on terror that has been mutually accepted by both Israel and the US encourages a close relationship between the Countries and business is good .The US ‘s
consistent sale of arms in the region may at times anger the Israeli’s due to the types and sophistication of the arms ,but Israel is well furnished and Diplomatically supported by the Superpower.It’s obvious that
Iran is the center-piece of the Mid Eastern and Central Asia tension which justifies the proliferation of weapons of all sorts .Oil does fit into this quagmire ,but the US doesn’t need Iranian oil ,China does .A two
State Solution between Israel and Palestine would actually diminish the tension between many belligerents in the region -namely Iran ,Hamas ,Hezbollah and Syria and diminish the proliferation of weapons ,for
the US that would mean a setback in the High-tech sector ,which in reality is the MIC.War is a business ,but apparently peace is too costly for them to even consider.

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By AIPAC - Israel's Kosher Nostra, March 18, 2010 at 5:50 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

AIPAC is Israel’s Kosher Nostra.

What can you expect from a Mafia organization which hides behind the general Jewish population both in Israel and North America, under the guise of fear of “Anti-semitism”.  I guess the same McCarthyite Witch Hunting has infected Israel proper.

What’s their logic?  Palestinians are Anti-Semitic because they won’t die quietly in a corner.  (And what’s rich is Palestinians are SEMITES.)

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By Shingo, March 18, 2010 at 5:45 am Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

“Much hatred of the Jew is on display here.”
No you liar, it isn’t.  Not one poster, and certainly not me, has said anything derogatory about Jews.

“The trick apparently is to blow up the neighborhood’s electric pylon while still finding enough light and power to assemble an IED device.”

Not when you’re an Israeli of course, because:

a) you don’t need to resort to IED devices with the US delivering state of the art weaponry to you and care of the US taxpayer and
b) the people youre tying to kill are across the border or holed up in an open air concentration camp.

“The Palestinian people will never forgive the Hamas gangs for looting the home of the Palestinian people’s great leader, Yasser Arafat,

False but anyway,

The problem with Zionist propagandists like you rambling about the abomination of terrorism is that Israel stands as a monument to terrorism.  Israel was founded on terrorism by terrorist gangs who’s leaders went on to become Prime Ministers of that country.  You see, gangs like the Irgun, the Stern and Hagana demonstrated to the Middle East that terrorism does work.

Istrale’s motto should be “a country of the terrorists, by the terrorists, for the terrorists”.

In fact, Israelis continue to celebrate terrorism.  They celebrated the bombing of the King David Hotel 60 year after the fact in 2006.  They named streets after Israeli terrorist.  In Hebron, Baruch Goldstein’s grave has become a shrine to the settler movement.  Tzipi Livni is the daughter of a famous terrorist leader.

Obviously terrorism pays in Israel.

In fact, Netanyahu is the only leader in the world that described the 9/11 attacks as “good”.  Yeah, that Bibbi is such a class act.

As Kaleed Meshal, the Hamas leader said recently, Yasser Arafat recognized Israel and Israel thanked him by killing him.  Add to that the attack Israel launched on the USS Liberty in 1967, and that gives you a taste of how Israel treats it’s friends.

“If you ever were in need of dialysis after you blew up the local clinic and shot the doctors, you could always cross the border to the nearby Zionist entity for treatment.”

Though you might lose an organ or two.

“But suddenly such Fatah terrorists are being out-terrorized by an even more barbaric Hamas, whose thugs have even looted the Nobel Peace Prize given Arafat”

That would be sad if it were true, but it’s false, and we know that because Arafat was under house arrest being poisoned by the Israelis at the time.

It seems you will go to any lengths to spread lies GRYM. It’s such a shame they are all so lame.

“How bizarre that Arafat’s followers of all people are reduced to appealing to international norms of decency and legality to avoid their utter destruction in Gaza by Hamas.”

It serves them right for being bribed by Tel Aviv to carry out a coup to overthrow the elected leaders, Hamas.  In most countries,, that would be considered treason, so the treatment they received at the hands of Hamas, while brutal, was justice.

That’s why Israel needed to start the war in Gaza in 2008.  If the ceasefire had continued for much longer, Israel would have been under pressure to deal with Hamas rather than their corrupt and spineless poodle, Abbas.

Its jus another example of the colonial strategy of divide and conquer.

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By Shingo, March 18, 2010 at 5:08 am Link to this comment

walterbard,

“What are you talking about. Amensty is specifically refering to the war in Gaza”

No, they are takling abotu what alledgedly took palce in Gaza during he war.  None of the enets descrived by your cut and paste has anytig to do with teh conflcit between Israel and Hamas.

“The rest of your comments are even more ridiculous.”

Good idea.  Save youtr energy for someone who can’t see though your propaganda and debunk it effortlessly.

“Israel suffered an initial setback because unlike
1967 it didn’t want to launch a preemptive strike.
It wanted to show who was the clear aggressor.”

You’re notoriously lazy with proviing links to your cut and paste effot, but in any case, but this ïs BS anyway.

israel was caught by surprise,  so how could they have launched a premptive attack. While Israel were still glaoting about surprising the Egyptians in 1967, Egypt game Israel a taste of it’s own medicine.

“But by the time of the cease fire Israel had utterly

“Under Nixon’s pressure Israel stopped its counter attack. Otherwisw it would have annihilated Egypt.”

Try again.

It was the fact that Nison sent a shipment of arms to Israel that saved their bacon.

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By Go Right Young Man, March 18, 2010 at 5:07 am Link to this comment

DAMN those Israelis. The sun did not rise in the West today!

Much hatred of the Jew is on display here.  Let us then highlight the hypocrisy by displaying points of views of billions of others.  That has been my underlying premise.  Not the myopic “translations” of a very young and highly emotional, Shingo.

There is only a thin veneer that separates civilization from man’s innate barbarity. Some 2,500 years ago the historian Thucydides once warned us about the irony of revolutionaries and insurrectionists destroying this fragile patina of culture, as if they themselves might be exempt from ever wanting it back again.

Yet no sooner, he warned, have such outsiders torn down the system of law than they are in need of it themselves when they assume power and the responsibility of governance. Even the worst Hamas terrorist apparently wants his wife and kids to be safe — and able to drink clean water when turning on the faucet. The trick apparently is to blow up the neighborhood’s electric pylon while still finding enough light and power to assemble an IED device.

-

“The Palestinian people will never forgive the Hamas gangs for looting the home of the Palestinian people’s great leader, Yasser Arafat,” Palestinian Authority spokesman Abdel Rahman exclaimed. “This crime will remain a stain of disgrace on the forehead of Hamas and its despicable gangs.”

For years Fatah and Palestinian Authority-sanctioned terrorists themselves have undermined civil society by torturing, murdering, and bombing innocents. It was accepted by them that the laws of civilization — due process, exemption of civilians from attacks, and the rule of law — did not apply to Yasser Arafat’s government that was as corrupt as it was savage. If you ever were in need of dialysis after you blew up the local clinic and shot the doctors, you could always cross the border to the nearby Zionist entity for treatment.

But suddenly such Fatah terrorists are being out-terrorized by an even more barbaric Hamas, whose thugs have even looted the Nobel Peace Prize given Arafat. What barbarians! Where is the law?

So now the outgunned Fatah gangsters are suddenly crying about the uncivilized evils of looting, gangs, and random killings. Just as Thucydides warned about insurrectionists destroying civil society, so Fatah once erased civilization’s protocols on the presumption that no one else would dare do to them what they routinely did to others. How bizarre that Arafat’s followers of all people are reduced to appealing to international norms of decency and legality to avoid their utter destruction in Gaza by Hamas.

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By walterbard, March 18, 2010 at 4:58 am Link to this comment

Repost all you like, nothing in that Amesty report has anything to do with the 2008 war (aka Israeli massacre) of Gaza.

What are you talking about. Amensty is specifically refering to the war in Gaza.

The rest of your comments are even more ridiculous.
I won’t waste my time except to add one point.

The Yom Kippur war.
Israel suffered an initial setback because unlike
1967 it didn’t want to launch a preemptive strike.
It wanted to show who was the clear aggressor.
A foolish move by Golda Meir that cost many lives.
But by the time of the cease fire Israel had utterly
crushed syria and retook the golan heights.
Israel had crossed the suez canal and encircled
the Egyptian army. Under Nixon’s pressure Israel
stopped its counter attack. Otherwisw it would have annihilated Egypt.

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By Shingo, March 18, 2010 at 4:39 am Link to this comment

Like I always said ITW,

Israel would be a model state and probably accepted in the Middle Easy if there were guys like you runnig it.

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By Shingo, March 18, 2010 at 4:37 am Link to this comment

“Let me repost Amesty Inernational’s statement”

Repost all you like, nothing in that Amesty report has anything to do with the 2008 war (aka Israeli massacre) of Gaza.

“But Amnesty has never accused Israel of the vile crimes committed by neonazi Hamas.”

HRW has and so did Golstone. So what’s your point?

“Here are excerpts from the charter of Hamas”

Your talking points are a 4 years old.
Hamas removed the call for the destruction of Israel from its manifesto
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jan/12/israel
Hamas renounced suicide bombing in 2005.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/09/israel

“Hamas accepted the 1967 borders as a permanent solution to the conflict”

I fail to see how this reflects poorly on Hamas given that Israel officially rejects a 2 state solution.

“Show me a proclamation from
the Israeli government that calls for the annihilation of Hamas.”

Show me where it says you need one to carry it out.
Have a look at this map and tell me who is being annihilated?
http://www.leedspsc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/israel-palestine-map.jpg

“If Israel wanted to expand From the Nile why did it cede the Sinai in return for a peace treaty with Egypt?”

I can think of a couple of reaons.
1.  US pressure. 
2.  The fact that they nearly got their asses kicked by egypt in 1973.
3.  The fact that they didn’t have the resources to protect that territory.
4. Egypt get massive aid from the US every year to play nioce with Israel.

“Has Israel attacked Egypt since signing the treaty? No. Why?”

1.  Because Israel has become a weak and cowardly state that prefers to poorly armed militias rather than large armies like Egypt.  After all, Hezbollah handed Israel their ass in 2006.
2.  Hamas, not Egypt stands between Israel and all of the West Bank.

“Their own words reveal Hamas to be racist, and not interested in any negotiations. Why should Israel, why should anyone talk to them.”

Fine, if you want to play the nasty quote game, let’s do that. How’s this for racism?

” [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs.” Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the Beasts”. New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

“When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.” Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

“One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail.”—Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

“We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves.” Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

And my favourite.  It seems Israelis dont discriminate only against Arabs. 

“Our race is the Master Race. We Jews are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves.” (Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin in a speech to the Knesset [Israeli Parlament], quoted by Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the Beasts,” New Statesman, June 25, 1982)

“If the blockade is lifted with Hamas still in power then all it will happen is Iran will send more weapons’to Gaza.”

You mean hams will be able to defend themselves?  What will poor little Israel do?  They only have 200 nukes, 5000 F-16s (care of the US taxpayer), 3 nuclear subs, hundreds of Apache Helicopters and n a guarantee of protection from the US should they get into trouble.

Poor little Israel.  So defenceless. Cry me a river.

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By Shingo, March 18, 2010 at 4:33 am Link to this comment

Walterbard

Part 1 of 2

“Of course it’s not conclusive evidence but is valid evidence along with archeological and Roman accounts”

Sorry, but there are no archeological accounts either.

“The arabs in Israel had the right to, vote, have representatives, and most importantly
to complain how badly they think they’re being treated.”

That’s because they are.  They have no right to marry someone outside of Israel if they want to remain in Israel. They are not allowed to build homes in many parts of Israel, especially Jewish neighbourhoods.

“How many Arab countries afford their citizens these rights?”

It’s not Arab, but the Jews in Iran claim to live better lives than the Arabs in Israel.

“Most of them were refugees from Arab persecution”
And they still suffer from racism in Israel. So much for the Jewish state.  It’s really the White Jewish state isnt it?

‘”1. The British barred Jewish emigration during that period but allowed an influx of arabs.”
This is a typical Zionist carnard.

The British to sponsored Jewish immigration into their Mandate in Palestine, which they wickedly and fantastically promised would never inconvenience the Palestinians in any way.

Secondly, the Palestinian population grew because of rapid population growth, not in-migration, which was minor.

“ 2. The jews in Israel purchased land legally”

False.  At the time of Israel’s creation, Jews only owned 7% of the land and the Arabs at least 50%. After the ethnic cleansing of 1948, most of the land was seized by Israeli laws of eminent domain, based on the rationale that absentee landlords had given up their property rights.

In fact, even according to Israeli law, many of these “purchases” were illegal.

“However Arabs committed murderous attacks against Jews while the British did nothing. Example: Hebron in April 1929”

That was the only one and it was in response to the massive influx of immigrants who had boasted since the turn of the century of their plans to drive the indigenous people from the land.

“Where do you get your facts? Read a newspaper.”

False on all counts. This is that Israsel did in June of 2008.  They violated the cease-fire at least 7 times.  The Israeli military killed 2 Palestinian civilians and injuring at least 5, at least one of them a child.

According to Israel’s own government office (Intelligence and Terrorism office), Hamas fired no rockets between July and November 4th, when Israel broke the ceasefire.

It doesn’t end there either.  Israel agreed to lift the blockade as part of the ceasefire.  They reneged on that agreement the day the ceasefire began, but Hamas stuck to it regardless.

Contrary to Israel’s argument that it was forced to launch its air and ground offensive against Gaza in order to stop the firing of rockets into its territory, Hamas proposed in mid-December to return to the original Hamas-Israel ceasefire arrangement.

It was Israel that rejected the ceasefire, not Hamas.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 18, 2010 at 3:56 am Link to this comment

I think your point to Shingo about solutions is valid, but facing reality and accepting that Israel is indeed here to stay, should not and must not mean acquiescence to basic human rights abuses.
**************************************
Nor do I advocate doing so.

Shingo: The people I know were FORCED out of Tunisia.  I don’t know if soldiers or police came to their door or if they were served an official notice to leave or else—but ANY of them were “Ethnic Cleansing”.  The incredible drop in Jewish populations in the Arab world cannot be attributed to ordinary migration but the INCREDIBLE animosity that immediately swept the Arab world against Jews.

I find the idea that EVERY Arab who left Israel did so at the point of a gun to be even more absurd—the Mufti TOLD them to leave—and hundreds of thousands stayed in Israel.

If you believe Nasser wasn’t going to attack you weren’t alive in 1967.

Still, it’s best to move on and we aren’t far apart on how they should make peace—and both agree that Netanyahu is dangerous racist fool who is sinking the process along with his own ditto-heads.

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By walterbard, March 18, 2010 at 3:31 am Link to this comment

Shingo

Reply part 2
Let me repost Amesty Inernational’s statement
“Since the end of December 2008, during and after the Israeli military offensive which killed some 1,300 Palestinians, most of them civilians, Hamas forces and militias in the Gaza Strip have engaged in a campaign of abductions, deliberate and unlawful killings, torture and death threats against those they accuse of “collaborating” with Israel, as well as opponents and critics”

Amnesty International is no friend of Israel. It has condemned it quite often. Unfairly
in my opinion.  But Amnesty has never accused Israel of the vile crimes committed by
neonazi Hamas.

Here are excerpts from the charter of Hamas
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.” (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
1. “The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. “
“There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”
“After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.”

Does this sound like an organization interested in Peace. Show me a proclamation from
the Israeli government that calls for the annihilation of Hamas.
If Israel wanted to expand From the Nile why did it cede the Sinai in return for a peace treaty
with Egypt? Has Israel attacked Egypt since signing the treaty? No. Why?
Because Egypt hasn’t attacked Israel. Hamas has

“Protocols of the Elders of Zion Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”
Their own words reveal Hamas to be racist, and not interested in any negotiations. Why should Israel,
why should anyone talk to them.
If the blockade is lifted with Hamas still in power then all it will happen is Iran will send more weapons
to Gaza. All the phonies who call for end to the blockade for humanitarian reasons,  don’t call for Hamas the change its stated goals

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By walterbard, March 18, 2010 at 3:28 am Link to this comment

To shingo

reply part 1
1. “No Christian Scholar of the time made note of any large number of Jews living in Palestine.”
That mean nothing.

Bishop Athenaseus of Alexandria had substantial connections the roman province
of Palestine and commented about the area an so did many other Bishops.
If there was a substantial Jewish population they would have mentioned it.
Of course it’s not conclusive evidence but is valid evidence along with archeological and Roman accounts


“Yes it’s true that during the Middle Ages Moslems treated Jews better than Christians.
But they, along with all other nonmoslems were second class citizens.”
You mean like Israel is today? Actually, Muslims in Israel closer to 3rd class citizens, behind the Ashkenazim and Sephardim.

The arabs in Israel had the right to, vote, have representatives, and most importantly
to complain how badly they think they’re being treated. How many Arab countries
afford their citizens these rights?  It’s nice to know you’re concerned about the Sephardim.
Most of them were refugees from Arab persecution

“As for your population figures in 1948 I already went over that in previous posts “
Yes and your argument was weak. The census conducted by the British was extensive.

I was referring to the Ottoman census. The British census conducted in 1933 was more accurate,
and Jews were a minority but 1. The British barred Jewish emigration during that period
but allowed an influx of arabs. 2. The jews in Israel purchased land legally,
under the mandate the Jews had no power to evict anyone. However Arabs committed murderous
attacks against Jews while the British did nothing. Example: Hebron in April 1929


First, Hamas didn’t announce the end to the truce and secondly, they didn;t atatck to begin with, so by definition, they couldn’t attack “again”.

Where do you get your facts? Read a newspaper. Hamas was firing rockets at Israel until
the Egyptian negotiated cease fire in June 2008 which Hamas renounced that in December.

The truce was broken by Israel’s November 4th attack.
According to the Israeli press, Yuval Diskin, the current head of the Israeli security service Shin Bet, “told the Israeli cabinet [on 23 December] that Hamas is interested in continuing the truce, but wants to improve its terms.” Diskin explained that Hamas was requesting two things: an end to the blockade, and an Israeli ceasefire on the West Bank. The cabinet – high with election fever and eager to appear tough – rejected these terms.
See my part 2

“Israel didn’t allow newsmen into zones where military operations were going on.
Any country at war would do that.”
False. Israel’s Supreme Court ruled that journalists were not to be banned from entering Gaza, and the IDF ignored that ruling. The US did not ban journalists from entering Iraq before or during it’s invasion. It banned journalists from certain areas while sensitive operations
were going on. And news reports were censored if the report endangeres the troops
Again, your cherry picking your facts. Anyway Israel has a free press does Hamas?

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By Michael Solomon, March 18, 2010 at 12:41 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Israel doesn’t exist in order to kill Palestinians.  It was formed largely by European refugees who just wanted to live their lives.  I think most people just see, or don’t see, if you catch my drift, the American foreign-policy perspective, which is heinous in its own right.  America is directly responsible for many more dead Arabs than Israel is, and for much less existential reasons.  But its always convienient at a time of unpopular wars abroad to deflect the conscience of good American citizens.  I just hope my phone won’t be tapped now by homeland security, in this, the land of the free.

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By Shingo, March 18, 2010 at 12:18 am Link to this comment

Andrew Sullivan has had a similar experience on his blog when he included this image in a recent post:

http://www.leedspsc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/israel-palestine-map.jpg

Jeffrey Goldberg went into a meltdown, and atatcked Sullivan for daring to shed light on the real issue because once you look at this map, there is no way to spin it.

A picture is worth a thousand words, and one look at his map is all anyone needs to know about thsi conflict.

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By Shingo, March 18, 2010 at 12:05 am Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

“Give authentic listening a try.  You believe the conflict is about Israel and the Palestinians.  I clearly do not.”

I’ve done plenty of listening, and observing. I’ve listened to plenty of Hasbara shills like you, as well as those on Palestinian side of the conflict, to know that your agenda is not about solving the conflict, but to put out fires and spin whenever Israel gets a bout of bad publicity.

I’ve seen you behave like so many Zionist propagandists before you.  They begin by posing Israeli propaganda, then when confronted with facts they can’t refute, they argue that there are 2 sides to the conflict,  that only by living in Israel can you understand Israel’s side of the story, then they indulge in juvenile games or taunts or simple resort to posting he same garbage over and over (like you have done), hoping to wear their opponent down, and then they try something else, like your attempting to do right now.

I see right through you.  I know what you’re up to and you are fooling no one.

I know you want this to be about religion, but that is clearly false. As Ben Gurion said, “They see but one thing : we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

That’s what the conflict is about.

Like all Israeli propagandists, your agenda it to insist the conflict is about something else so that Israel’s policies and intransigence are not scrutinized.

You knew and I know it.

“Is it sinking in?  You are focusing on very recent human history while adding a good dose of single-minded hatred.  You take current events out of all context.”

What is sinking in is your desperation, your efforts to deceive,  and your effort to deny history and Israel’s current polices of land theft, oppression, occupation and ethnic cleansing.  It’s not going to work.  Israel’s reputation is tanking on the international stage and getting worse by the day.  It’s only going to get worse so you had better get used to it.

As Tzipi Lini said to Netanyahu, Israel has become an intentional pariah.

I couldn’t have said it better.

“As you get older, as you tamp down the hate, your mind will become more focused on a wider, larger, context. You will see things much differently.”

On the contrary.  I intend to remain as outraged in the future as I am now about mass murder, ethnic cleansing, land theft, apartheid and war crimes.

You have more than enough hatred in you, but your outrage will come.  You can count on it.

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By Go Right Young Man, March 17, 2010 at 11:15 pm Link to this comment

Shingo,

Give authentic listening a try.  You believe the conflict is about Israel and the Palestinians.  I clearly do not.

Once again.  -  Only those blinded by hatred could lay blame at the feet of one, in a conflict which “has gone on for centuries”.

Is it sinking in?  You are focusing on very recent human history while adding a good dose of single-minded hatred.  You take current events out of all context.

As you get older, as you tamp down the hate, your mind will become more focused on a wider, larger, context. You will see things much differently.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 10:04 pm Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

“I neglected to include this is my last post.”

You mean, you forgot to repeat it for the 4th time.

“Only those blinded by hatred could lay blame at the feet of one, in a conflict which has gone on for centuries. ”

As I pointed out earlier, this is a lie.  The conflict has only began when the European immigrants began arriving in Palestine.  prior to that, Jews and Palestinians got along fine in Palestine.

As with a rape case, the blame goes to the rapist, not the victim.

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By Bobadi, March 17, 2010 at 10:01 pm Link to this comment

Firefly, I understand your position, sorry for the confusion, my reply was poorly worded.

I am asking about the reference you and John Ellis made about oil being the target of our US support of Zionist Israel, I did not mean to infer that you yourself support Zionism.

Is oil the reason the US spends endlessly on the support of apartheid?

How does that work? I am trying to make the connection.
Does the US need this conflict?
Why give a reason for rebellion against those we trade with?
Why give Iran’s totalitarian government a real honest excuse? Is it “arms makers profits, trade of oil for weapons, and the entirety of that self supporting complex?”
I know the previous excuse was the “cold war necessity of having a pro-US western power in the region.”
Is this all just a question of momentum?

That the beast is attempting to continue by adopting terrorism to replace communism, and needs to foment freedom fighters in order to label them terrorists?

I know a lot of money is changing hands, and all of us in the US are being tapped for it, (and I am not a 911 conspiracist) but possibly could this be the ending evolutionary road of a very oppressively sick economy?

My understanding is that all wars have an economic basis, can we follow the money in this one? Including the APAC funding, and their retaliatory threats to our leaders?

Let’s hope that slap in Biden’s face is the “one heard around the world.”

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By Go Right Young Man, March 17, 2010 at 9:48 pm Link to this comment

I neglected to include this is my last post.

“Only those blinded by hatred could lay blame at the feet of one, in a conflict which has gone on for centuries. ”

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 9:47 pm Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,


No you may not GRYM.  You are a dishonest propagandist who has amply demonstrated, has no regard for the truth or facts in this matter.

I have used my hed throughout my posts to your.  In case you forgtot, you’re the one who disissed the facts as irrelevant and insisted that talking to Jews only would enlighten me.

As for hate, well, there again it is you that refuses to acknowledge that the 2.5 million Palestinians in teh West Bank are people.

“A much larger globe, larger than you have yet to imagine, awaits your participation.”

Thanks Gandhi, but while you talk about expanding globes, the Palestinian territory in shrinking every day because Israel is stealing, land, and ethnically cleansing Palestinian from what remains.

In other words, an ongoing atrocity is being perpetrated and you are supporting it.

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By Go Right Young Man, March 17, 2010 at 9:38 pm Link to this comment

Shingo,

If I may?  Use your head in place of your hate.  Learn to listen beyond your emotions. 

A much larger globe, larger than you have yet to imagine, awaits your participation.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 9:05 pm Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

Thank you for unwittingly bolstering my point.  It goes on on both sides. That has been my entire point from the beginning”

And then you went on to only talk about Arafat and Hamas,

You’re a fraud a

“Atrocities take place from both sides.”

Rubbish. Atrocities are committed and Israel has been committing all the atrocities since 1948.

“Some choose to make this solely an issue of the evil Jewish people or the Jewish state.”

That’s also a lie.  No one is making it about the evil Jewish people, but it is true that Israel exploits Jewish people to justify its a atrocities.

Thanks for playing.

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By Go Right Young Man, March 17, 2010 at 8:45 pm Link to this comment

Shingo,

Thank you for unwittingly bolstering my point.  It goes on on both sides. That has been my entire point from the beginning.

-

Atrocities take place from both sides.  Not fully understanding this takes every current event out of all context.

Some choose to make this solely an issue of the evil Jewish people or the Jewish state.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 8:41 pm Link to this comment

Some more examples of Zionist goodwill.

Winston Churchill wrote as early as 1919 that the Zionists “take it for granted that the local population will be cleared out to suit their convenience.”

“We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves.” Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

” [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs.” Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the Beasts”. New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

“The Palestinians” would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls.” ” Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

“When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.” Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

last but not least, even Ben Gurion admitted that Israeli leaders were deceitful and masters of double steak.

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing : we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 8:35 pm Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

“Atrocities take place from both sides.  The battles of Arab against Jew is centuries old.”

Oh dear, it looks like GRYM’s bout of autism has returned.
Ariel Sharon told the world he wanted peace while his advisor, Dov Weisglass told the world he would suspect the peace process in formaldehyde.

Edud Olmert told the world he supported a 2 state solution, while proclaiming in a speech to Congress that he believed in Israel’s right to al the land from the Jordan River to the sea.

Ben Gurion stated that under no circumstances must the Palestinians be harmed while claiming he had no problem with the removal of Palestinians from Palestine.
Netenyahu praises the Christian Zionists when visiting the US, but in private had this to say about them,

“My opinion of Christian Zionists? They’re scum. But don’t tell them that. We need all the useful idiots we can get right now,” .

“Only those blinded by Zionist ideology could deny who is primarily responsible for a conflict that began with the creation of the Zionist state.

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By Robert, March 17, 2010 at 8:33 pm Link to this comment

firefly,

The Israeli army attacked Gaza’s Palestinian population for 3 weeks or so, and as you know they used just about everything in their military arsenal…all was OK & the green signal was given from Cheney, Bush & many others.

CNN, FOXNEWS, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, CBS and many more kept calling it a WAR. They had most American viewers believing that Israel was fighting Hamas/Palestinian army and its massive weapons. Israel knows that the Palestinians don’t have anything sophisticated and in NO way will it ever match a fraction of what Israel has in its arsenals. The Palestinians are NOT a threat to Israel and its existence; its really the other way around. Israel is the threat to the Palestinians and their existence. Its Israel that is trying to drive the Palestinians into the sea.

So you see, to justify the Israeli massive military attack on Gaza in 2008/2009 & the murder of 1400 Palestinians mostly civilians, women and children…, many zionist/AIPAC controlled news media had to repeatedly call it a WAR! It was all geared for the ever important “American viewers/public” support of Israel’s perceived actions.

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By radson, March 17, 2010 at 8:29 pm Link to this comment

Shingo

but the fact that there is an impasse due to Israel refusing to accept a Palestinian state does not mean the solution itself is complicated.—————

————
How so ?

good night.

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By Go Right Young Man, March 17, 2010 at 8:23 pm Link to this comment

Atrocities take place from both sides.  The battles of Arab against Jew is centuries old.  Not fully understanding this takes every current event out of all context.

Some choose to make this an issue of the evil Jewish people or the Jewish state. - If the sun fails to rise from the West the Israelis are to blame. 

-

Atrocities take place from both sides. 

Arafat was the Master of Doublespeak. He would deliver one message to the West and an entirely other message to his people and to the Arab world. Arafat was smiles and soft-spoken to the West, he was a fire breathing hell raiser before Arab audiences. In English, Arafat spoke of “the peace of the brave,” in Arabic he called for Jihad. In Washington Arafat told world leaders what they wanted to hear in Ramallah and Beirut and Cairo he told his people what they needed to hear.

Yasser Arafat would say what he needed to say in order to relieve the pressure that was placed on him. Yasser Arafat was an enabler. He enabled Western leaders, and some on these very pages, to delude themselves that “yes,” there really was a chance for change, a hope for peace between the Palestinians and Israel. He enabled the Palestinian people to hope for a future when there were no Arab plans for their future.

Hamas has learned the Lessons of Doublespeak. Hamas understands the rewards of Doublespeak. Hamas knows that even though the United States and Europe knew that Arafat was delivering double messages, they felt uncomfortable saying “no” to him in the face of his fancy words. Hamas knows that the United States and Europe want to avoid direct clashes and conflict and so, they choose the path of self-delusion and respond to what they know to be messages meant for their diplomatic ears only and promises never meant to be carried out and fulfilled.

They’re new at the game, but they learned from the pro and Hamas is getting very good at delivering the double message. And Hamas has an advantage over Arafat. Yasser Arafat was a one-man-game, he could contradict only himself. Hamas is an organization with several significant mouthpieces carefully choreographed to step on each other’s phrases.

As Ismail Haniyeh speaks of peace if Israel simply allows Palestinians their own State, Salah al Bardaweil, the Hamas spokesman, promptly rejects those sentiments and calls for Israel to be “Destroyed and Thrown into the Sea.”

-

Only those blinded by hatred could lay blame at the feet of one, in a conflict which has gone on for centuries.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 8:19 pm Link to this comment

radson,

I have no disagreement with your pessimism, but the fact that there is an impasse due to Israel refusing to accept a Palestinian state does not mean the solution itself is complicated.

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By radson, March 17, 2010 at 8:16 pm Link to this comment

Shingo

I am aware of UN Resolution 242 and i am also aware of the Arab Peace Proposal of 2002 ,but the reality is a stalement at the moment ,now is that due to Israeli ambitions for further land grabs and the redrawing of the map of Israel ,hence the state of Israel being defined.Now if that is the case then the possibility of a two State Solution becomes very distant indeed and animosities between the beligerants will only increase.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 8:15 pm Link to this comment

firefly,

“In its place, we have asymmetrical war (disproportionate war) where one side (usually Israel and America) is overwhelmingly more powerful than the other and the winner is theoretically a foregone conclusion.”

So according to you, Gaza was not reduced to rubble, 1,400 civilians were not massacred, the blockade of Gaza has been lifted, and the Palestinians got their independent and sovereign state.

Sorry buddy, but asymmetrical or otherwise, victory has to yield strategic objectives to be considered a victory.  You could argue whether or not Israel achieved theirs, but you’re wasting your time if you suggest Hamas did.

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By firefly, March 17, 2010 at 7:54 pm Link to this comment

Robert,

You say: The Israeli attack on Gaza in December 2008/January 2009 cannot be called a war. The Israelis had sophisticated weapons, fighter jets, tanks, missiles, military drones, 500 and 1000 pounds bombs, chemicals in their arsenal that were used against a mostly unarmed Palestinian civilian population. 1400 Palestinians were savagely slaughter by Israel’s army using American made weapons & funded by the ole US taxpayers. The Palestinians have NO fighter jets, tanks, missiles…etc…its NOT a war. It can’t be called a war! Its a massacre! 

The whole concept of war has become politicized and stage-managed. Because wars are no longer fought face to face on the battle field, the whole idea of a genuine battle has gone. Since the cold war, equally matched opponents do not go to battle. Instead equally matched opponents have ‘deterrents’.

In its place, we have asymmetrical war (disproportionate war) where one side (usually Israel and America) is overwhelmingly more powerful than the other and the winner is theoretically a foregone conclusion.

Israel and America use the term “war” while their citizens’ walk around the streets going about business as usual, (and banks and insurance companies continue to extort money out of people) who are totally oblivious to the bloodbath their bombs are enacting (which give the weapons manufactures soaring profits).

They hear the sanitized version on TV, the praise of their ‘heroic’ military thousands of miles away who are spreading freedom and democracy across the globe, and are shielded from the pictures of butchery they commit. The only people who ‘feel’ the war are possibly the deployed soldiers and their families, (some of whom come home with such horrific nightmares and guilt) but even they don’t all face the enemy. Reports of soldiers deployed to Iraq just idling their time in army garrisons, are numerous. With sophisticated drones and missiles which can kill large numbers from a safe distance, many of them are not needed for day to day action. They may be entertained with an endless supply of Hollywood movies, computer games and sporting events while the bombs are falling and tearing the limbs off men, women, children, and the elderly.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 7:54 pm Link to this comment

radson,

“Well Shingo ,Iam awaiting your context ,assuming that you have a solution ,for peace must be placed in context;isn’t that where we are at the moment? “

Arabian Sinbad, just put is very well.

If Israel gives back what it took from the Palestinians, I am sure the Palestinians will agree to peace.

To answer your question further, you may or may not know about the Arab peace offer.  This offer includes full recognition of Israel (as per teh 1967 borders) and normalization of relations with Israel.

22 Arab states have singed this agreement.  Iran have said they would accept it.  Hamas said they can not stand in the way of it.

And guess what?  Israel has rejected the offer, even though it is 7 years old.

So you see, Israel claims to want peace, but not badly enough.

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By Arabian Sinbad, March 17, 2010 at 7:47 pm Link to this comment

The word “hypocrisy” is a good place to start in explaining the historical unholy alliance between these two colonialist entities. However, this unholy alliance is further rooted in a common history of terrorism, cruelty and injustices against the natives of the countries these two entities came to disposes and destroy. One might think about this as a comradeship in evil and terrorism that was elevated to an emotional attachment. Even evil likes company, and the Devil always likes the company of minor devils!

Truth and justice are the only two ingredients that can liberate these two entities from the evil past of their unholy alliance. However, I am not optimistic because the political establishments in both Israel and the US are so immersed in their evil, arrogance and hypocrisy to be a able to value the liberating light of truth and justice! It is apparent that evil, hypocrisy, fear and exploitation are the real currency of politicians in these two countries and their way to success with the majority of misguided and ignorant population.

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By radson, March 17, 2010 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment

Well Shingo ,Iam awaiting your context ,assuming that you have a solution ,for peace must be placed in context;isn’t that where we are at the moment?

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 7:09 pm Link to this comment

radson,

“The average Jewish citizen and for that matter Palestinian would choose Peace over War nine times out of ten ,but unfortunately Democracy is not as representative as it is claimed to be and it begs the question as to what kind of justice -moral and legal- actually guides the populace on either side.”

Peace is a tricky word because it is largely meaningless without context.

Many Israeli supporters cite polls showing more Israeli’s wanting peace that Palestinians, but that ignores the fact that under the current conditions, Israelis have nothing to lose and Palestinians have everything to lose.
Peace is meaningless without justice.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 7:06 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

At last you make a decent post, albeit sprinkled with generous helpings of bias and selective morality.

“But I don’t see the Palestinian problem as apartheid”
Israel does, especially Barak, who admits that Israel will become apartheid without a 2 state settlement.

“Israel has the right to exist and has the right to not be threatened. Now saying that gets me into trouble and so be it.”

That’s not what gets you into trouble.  What gets you into trouble is ignoring that Israel, which has become addicted to it’s military superiority, routinely threatens it’s neighbours and threatens to bomb Iran almost weekly.

So while Israel has the right not to be threatened, it does not have the right to threaten others, much less complain that the threat is returned.

“It is much too complex for anyone on this forum to have the solution.”

It’s not complexed at all.  The fact that Israel has deliberately tried to change the facts on the ground by building illegal settlements means that a 2 state settlement will be a bitter pill to swallow, but it’s very simple.

It simply comes down to will and what the international community is prepared to do to reach a settlement.

“ But it looks like Shingo and ITW are finding a way.”

We found a way long ago.  ITW and I agree almost entirely about the problem and the solution.  That does not mean we don’t engage in passionate disagreements, but we have always respected one another.

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By radson, March 17, 2010 at 6:56 pm Link to this comment

Shingo :if only it can be as easy as common sense ,then perhaps the world would be a better place,but with the institutionalized leadership that represents us today ,the tendency is towards the negative ,which
I believe is due, to a lack of understanding and a certain ignorance ,culminating from an old school mentality that has been carrying on since the Cold War. If the ‘choice ’ was so obvious then it wouldn’t be an
issue and I say this with regards to all sides .The average Jewish citizen and for that matter Palestinian would choose Peace over War nine times out of ten ,but unfortunately Democracy is not as representative as it is claimed to be and it begs the question as to what kind of justice -moral and legal- actually guides the populace on either side.


Shenonomous there is no such thing as an atheist ,so don’t worry ,everybody communicates with the unknown it’s a human condition ,when you talk to yourself are you really talking to yourself?

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By firefly, March 17, 2010 at 6:52 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

I think your point to Shingo about solutions is valid, but facing reality and accepting that Israel is indeed here to stay, should not and must not mean acquiescence to basic human rights abuses.

What makes many people so angry about Israel, is it’s complete impunity, that somehow, because of Jewish history, it is above laws, international treaties, and basic human rights. Other nations may commit wrongs, but they are universally condemned and often sanctions etc imposed if not war. Israel literally gets away with murder. That doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t exist, but Israel should be treated like any other nation (in fact so should the US) and should comply with all international laws.

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By Shenonymous, March 17, 2010 at 6:39 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry, Peace!  Yeah it was silly.  I was pushing the crass
statement you made.  It isn’t nice to talk cannibalistically.  I am not
worried about Zionists.  But I don’t see the Palestinian problem as
apartheid. But I am willing to see why you do.  I don’t think Israel
should be building in Jerusalem either.  And I am not a fan of
Netanyahu.  I am not Jewish, never was, and never will be, but that
doesn’t say I think they are completely wrong.  Israel has the right to
exist and has the right to not be threatened.  Now saying that gets me
into trouble and so be it.  It is much too complex for anyone on this
forum to have the solution. They are all computer chair generals and no
one in the outside world listens to them.  It is all opinion and therefore,
all are entitled to their own opinion without being ground to a pulp for
it.  Discussion is a different matter.  There is little skill at discussion. 
We can come away from a discussion knowing better what is going on. 
Even able to change a view or two.  Changing sympathies is even
possible.  But not the way Shingo and a few others go at it.  But it
looks like Shingo and ITW are finding a way. 

I know another of Norwegian background.  A very nice guy.  I don’t
know if that is unusual.  The only other Norwegian I know was an old
female professor.  She was brilliant.

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By Robert, March 17, 2010 at 6:20 pm Link to this comment

Shingo,

See below Norman Finkelstein’s specific details relating to the 1967 Arab/Israeli war.

BTW, Egypt and Syria did NOT attack Israel in 1973. They attacked Israel’s army on Occupied Egyptian and Syrian land. No Israeli City / population center was attacked in 1973.

Also, The Israeli attack on Gaza in December 2008/January 2009 cannot be called a war. The Israelis had sophisticated weapons, fighter jets, tanks, missiles, military drones, 500 and 1000 pounds bombs, chemicals in their arsenal that were used against a mostly unarmed Palestinian civilian population. 1400 Palestinians were savagely slaughter by Israel’s army using American made weapons & funded by the ole US taxpayers. The Palestinians have NO fighter jets, tanks, missiles…etc…its NOT a war. It can’t be called a war! Its a massacre! 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


“Norman Finkelstein: In order to understand the build up to the war the best place to begin is November, 1966. There was an Israeli retaliatory, as they call it, attack on a Jordanian village called Samu. In the course of this attack on Samu they blew up around 125 buildings and killed a large number of Jordanian soldiers.

When that attack happened the Jordanians and also the Syrians began to attack Nasser for not coming to their defense. Here was this Egyptian president claiming to be the leader of Arab nationalism and Pan-Arabism and he was doing nothing. Nasser was being taunted for his, as it were, impotence in the face of Israeli aggression.

And there were various incidents in the Syrian Golan Heights and also by Syrian-backed Palestinian commandos. Now there there’s a certain amount of confusion which is important to clarify. Moshe Dayan, who became the defense minister during the June ‘67 war, gave an interview in 1976 in which he acknowledges, and now I’m more or less quoting him, that 80%, he said at least 80%, but I’ll say 80% of the incidents with the Syrians were instigated by us. That we were engaged, now I’m using my language, but it’s I think a correct paraphrase, we were engaged in a land grab in what were called the demilitarized zones between Syria and Israel. And in the course of this land grab there were conflicts arising with the Syrians. And it was only as a result of these conflicts that the Syrians then would fire artillery from the Golan Heights on the Israelis. So Moshe Dayan himself acknowledged that was instigated by the Israelis.

In April, just let me get right up to the point where the count down, as it were, begins. In April 1967 one of those incidents instigated by the Israelis then unfolded into an aerial battle with the Syrians. And the Israelis knocked down 6 Syrian planes, 6 Syrian Migs, including 1 over Damascus. And it was at this point again when Nasser is being taunted that “you’re not doing anything.”

Things then start deteriorating between Israel and the Syrians. Come the beginning of May Israel is making clear that it’s going to engage in a large scale strike against Syria and now the test is for Nasser. Are you going to do anything about it? The Israelis are announcing over and over again, the generals, the statesmen, that we’re going to give Syria now a serious blow. And it’s at that point that Nasser announces, or Nasser tells Secretary General [not “of State”] U Thant, that the peace keeping force which had been stationed between Israel and Egypt in the Sinai, that peace keeping force should be withdrawn. And that’s the beginning of the count down to the war.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Click on link for the rest of the facts:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/finkelstein-on-the-june-1967-war/

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 6:09 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

part 1 of 2

“I KNOW people who were EXPELLED from Arab countries.”

I never denied that some Jews might have been expelled, but they were NOT ethnically cleansed.  Did troops come to their front door and demand they leave immediately under threat of violence? If not, they were not ethnically cleansed.

Answers to follow:
1) There was never a Jewish people in ancient Judea—but was a creation from much later.
Answer: On the contrary, there was, though they were not the first to arrive.
2)Nobody ever discriminated or mistreated a Jew—OK, maybe the Spanish Inquisition, but nobody in the Moslem world.
Answer: On the contrary, I’m sure they were.  I’ve been discriminated against and mistreated myself.  Just ask my ex.
3) Jews didn’t try to get to America and Britain and other nations, fleeing the Holocaust, but instead were ONLY willing to go to Palestine or die.
Answer: On the contrary.  I provided evidence that they did try and most did not want to go to Palestine.  Sadly, there were Jewish groups in the US who lobbied against allowing them to to enter the US, for fear tit would jeapordize the dream of a Jewish state.  Do you remember what Ben Gurion said about being given the choice between saving half the chilren in Germany and Israel?
4) No Arab left Israel willing but ALL were forced out.
Answer:  Why would they willingly leave unless they were generously compensated?  Maybe there were a handful, but most were driven out.  No question.
5) No Jew was forced out of Arab nations but all left willingly.
Anser:  See above.
6) The only attacks on Israel were in 1948 and 1973—and the 1973 one was justified.
Answer:  Attacks as in starting wars?  Yes.
7) Arab nations didn’t discriminate against Palestinians.
Answer:  Of course they did.  Shamefully so.
8) Despite the HUGE massing of Egyptian and Syrian forces on the Israeli border in 1967 and Nasser’s boasts they were going to destroy Israel, they never intended to attack”
Answer:
a) Yitzhak Rabin, the Israeli army chief of staff during the war, later stated: “I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it.”
b). General Mattityahu Peled, a member of Israel’s general staff in 1967, opined that “the thesis according to which the danger of genocide weighed on us in June 1967, and that Israel struggled for its physical existence is only a bluff born and developed after the war.”
c) Menachem Begin, not yet prime minister but a member of the Israeli cabinet, allowed that: “The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.”
Please explain which of these quotes out of context.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 6:08 pm Link to this comment

ITW:

Part 2 of 2


9) There has never been an unjustified atrocity by attackers of Israel
Answer:  What do you mean by atrocity?  A terrorist attack?
10) There has never been a legitimate defensive action by Israel.
Answer:  1948 to some extent and maybe 1973, though the ‘73 war could have been averted by returning the Sinai to Egypt, which they stole in 1967.
“I hate to conclude this, but you MUST insist the ONLY solution is the dissolution of Israel and the disbursement of its non-Arab people….“somewhere”.”

Answer: Not al all.  I support a state of Israeli within 1967 borders and a shared Capital in Jerusalem.  I would hope that the Jewish State is here to stay, though as Barak aid, without a 2 state solution , it will be Jewish and apartheid, not Jewish and democratic.

“They HAVE nukes—but they have NEVER used or even tested them”

They conducted tests with South Africa.

In any case, there is no argument about whether Israel should exist and this point has NOTHGIN to do with my argument in any way, shape or form.  That is a profoundly dumb debate IMO.  No state in the world should have to prove it’s right to exist.

“how about something constructive: Like how the State of Israel can live in peace with its neighbors?”

Now you’re talking.  How about the peace initiative, signed by 22 Arab states to recognize Israrl as per the 1967 borders? The one Israel has rejected since 2003?

All I want is Israel to accept the offer,  It even includes the offer to normalize relations with Israel in the Middle East.  That’s what I want. 

I don’t hate Israel. I am ambivalent to Israel. I simply hate Israeli policies and Israeli aggression and militancy.

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By PatrickHenry, March 17, 2010 at 6:03 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, March 17 at 8:15 pm #

‘Tell me, is PatrickHennarie an Iranian?  Then eating Jewish children is on the menu!  Oh yeah”.

Your failing me in my belief of you as an academic with silly posts like that, besides the zionists get all up in arms with statements like that, kidding or not.  Gives them fuel for insults as if they need any.

I’m a Montanian of Norwegian ancestry who lives in DC.  I spend alot of my days tooling around Capitol Hill in my Ford running down jaywalking lobbyists, brightens my day. 

Its interesting to me that it is usually the agnostic, non observant American zionist “jews” of the ashkenazi varity whose families herald from Poland where they were resident for over a thousand years (they won’t tell you that) who are the most ardent advocates that Israel is a “Jewish state” or the “Jewish homeland”. 

This apartheid system is what I see as the root of problem and I believe should be handled like South Africa was.

“Being Jewish” is all in ones head unless practiced as a religion and most of the religious Jews are typically anti-zionist.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 17, 2010 at 5:39 pm Link to this comment

False.  Israel ethnically cleansed 750,000 Palestinians in 1948. The majority of the 900,000 Jews were not exiled from Arab lands. They were asked to migrate and even paid by Israel from the time of the original ethnic cleansing and Tom Segev has expertly outlined the lunacy of Jews who kick out Arabs because they aren’t Jews and import Arab who are Jews.
******************************************

Shingo, enough! I KNOW people who were EXPELLED from Arab countries. Not asked by Israelis to come to Israel—expelled!  Like Tunisia.  Tell me Tunisia never expelled Jews and I’ll tell you that’s a flat-out lie.

You would have it that:
1) There was never a Jewish people in ancient Judea—but was a creation from much later.
2) Nobody ever discriminated or mistreated a Jew—OK, maybe the Spanish Inquisition, but nobody in the Moslem world.
3) Jews didn’t try to get to America and Britain and other nations, fleeing the Holocaust, but instead were ONLY willing to go to Palestine or die.
4) No Arab left Israel willing but ALL were forced out.
5) No Jew was forced out of Arab nations but all left willingly.
6) The only attacks on Israel were in 1948 and 1973—and the 1973 one was justified.
7) Arab nations didn’t discriminate against Palestinians.
8) Despite the HUGE massing of Egyptian and Syrian forces on the Israeli border in 1967, and Nasser’s boasts they were going to destroy Israel, they never intended to attack and a quote from some Israeli leaders out of context “proves it”—so the ‘67 war was TOTALLY a war of Israeli aggression—by a nation of then about 3 million against three nations each about 10x Israel’s size.
9) There has never been an unjustified atrocity by attackers of Israel
10) There has never been a legitimate defensive action by Israel.

I hate to conclude this, but you MUST insist the ONLY solution is the dissolution of Israel and the disbursement of its non-Arab people….“somewhere”.

And, to you, this is “justice”.

Now, I suggest you face reality.  The Jewish State is here to stay.  They HAVE nukes—but they have NEVER used or even tested them—which shows restraint.  They also now have a disgusting, Taliban-like right-wing religious government whose SOLE claim to power is its ability to scare people that only IT can protect them—and they must expand.

However, while the State is here to stay, this government may topple if Obama has the stones to push them and pressure them hard on these new, ILLEGAL settlements.

So, rather than arguing the absurd: Why Israel should cease to exist, which is, after all, the TOTAL and ONLY point of all your arguments, how about something constructive: Like how the State of Israel can live in peace with its neighbors?

That means REALISTIC concessions that don’t compromise her security or existence, not absurd demands that Israel commit suicide by allowing every Palestinian who claims his grandmother’s aunt’s butler’s uncle had a piece of land that HE should get back, get it back.

What exactly do you want Israel to do? Is it realistic or is it a fantasy pipe-dream that cannot happen and then can be used to justify another Holocaust?

You are one of the very few Israel-haters who actually has a brain he knows how to use.

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By Shenonymous, March 17, 2010 at 5:37 pm Link to this comment

Indeed, radson, spinning is what they do best.  No, I too do not have
“anything against” people of faith.  I have many faithful in my family
who I love dearly and friends who are as well.  I have declared atheism
and that more or less seals my fate on this website.  Family and friends
accept me the way I am.  No freakouts there.  I also tend to try to
balance out the rabid partisans from the other rabid partisans.  I am a
middle of the roader, leaning to the left but not even close to the left
edge, which also seals my fate here.  I’ve been called just about
everything in the book.  So well… Umma street fighter from way back
before I got sum ejumacashun.

Faith in itself is not a problem.  Each human has a mind, some work
better than others and those who really cannot stand me would call me
a name from that last statement, but it doesn’t matter since they don’t
count in my life anyway.  They are simply bigoted and somewhat
nearsighted and get hot under their fingernails.  When faith becomes
tyrannical and intends to convert the world to their ‘faith’ or eliminate
those who don’t is when I get scrappy and will fight and retaliate even
if it means returning the name-calling (I have a talent taught to me by
a smart old Arab).

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 5:34 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

“Where are the students now?  How about school?  Good place to hide out, no?  Oh yeah. Maybe suicide bomber school?  Oh yeah.”

Yes, I had a feeling this was about to happen. Right on cue, we are witnessing another Zionist meltdown.

Where’s this school Shen? And if they are in coffee shops about getting blown up, what are they waiting for? They’ve had 12 months to think about it.

Enlighten us.

“Are you sure Iran is not involved in making nuclear warhead?”

I am sure that there is no evidence that they are.
I am sure that they are signatories to the NPT and are subjected to the most intrusive inspections in history (unlike Israel that refuses both).
“Where exactly do you get your information or are you simply spouting
off again?  I got mine from the United Nations, that is usually
intimidated by Iran.”
The United Nations has no evidence either.  I’ll invite you to produce any UN statement producing any evidence that Iran is making nukes, but you won’t be able to.
Good luck with that.

“How about theeeeeesssee headlines”

“Q+A-Where does China stand on Iran sanctions?”

Iran, like Russia, and 16 UN intelligence agencies, knows that Iran is not making nukes.

Here’s some headlines for you Shen.

Most Israelis could live with a nuclear Iran: poll

“Only one in five Israeli Jews believes a nuclear-armed Iran would try to destroy Israel and most see life continuing as normal should their arch-foe get the bomb, an opinion poll published on Sunday found.”
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE55D0DR20090614

“Israel outraged as EU poll names it a threat to peace”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/nov/02/israel.eu

“Gee I could keep doing this but you get the idea.  Or maybe you don’t!”

You’re right I don’t.  The headlines you produced were interesting and all, though none of them had anything to do with the thread, so I am not sure what you were trying to achieve.

Perhaps you though you were being clever, but I suspect you are simply having a typical Zionist meltdown and resorting to flinging your own feces.

“I shouldn’t worry but I hate to see anyone explode as it gets messy in a blog.”

Don’t be ashamed Shen, you’re not the first to soil themselves in public, and you won’t the last.

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By Shenonymous, March 17, 2010 at 5:15 pm Link to this comment

Speaking of village idiots…You might wire your jaw shut, Shingo. 
Where are the students now?  How about school?  Good place to hide
out, no?  Oh yeah. Maybe suicide bomber school?  Oh yeah.  Then
maybe the coffee shops to talk about getting blown up. Oh yeah.  Tell
me, is PatrickHennarie an Iranian?  Then eating Jewish children is on
the menu!  Oh yeah.

Instead of blowing your head off, well…. that would be messy, instead
of shooting off your mouth, I have already said Iran is dealing with
China, Brazil and Russia, and I also said they provide oil to India as
well.  So you simply rant and corroborate what I already said. Thank
you!  Are you sure Iran is not involved in making nuclear warhead? 
Where exactly do you get your information or are you simply spouting
off again?  I got mine from the United Nations, that is usually
intimidated by Iran.  If anyone needs mirror therapy, it is your
Pontification.  Do you make everyone in your vicinity bow down? laugh
laugh. 

How about theeeeeesssee headlines:

The demise of the dollar
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/the-demise-of-
the-dollar-1798175.html

Q+A-Where does China stand on Iran sanctions?
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSNTOE61904B

http://www.irantracker.org/roundup/global-business-iran-update-
february-18-march-2-2010
for all oil related information on Iran new and existing.

More on their oil involvements:  The New York Times, March 12, 2010
Profiting From Iran, and the U.S.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/03/06/world/iran-
sanctions.html

Slain Hamas man was Iran-Gaza arms link
(Agencies / KT Archives)
16 February 2010
http://www.khaleejtimes.ae/displayarticle.asp?
xfile=data/middleeast/2010/February/middleeast_February448.xml&se;
ction=middleeast&col;=

Gee I could keep doing this but you get the idea.  Or maybe you don’t!

GRYM, I hope you don’t take this joker seriously.  Why would anyone
care what he thinks?  He is infantile with his name-calling anyway.  A
little bit excitable I think. 

Shingo, you might try transcendental meditation, a 70s kind of
enlightening relaxant.  I shouldn’t worry but I hate to see anyone
explode as it gets messy in a blog.

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By stanley Marcus, March 17, 2010 at 5:08 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I’m curious. During the many years when mortars were being launched at Israel
from Gaza did Chris Hedges ever write an article expressing outrage at the use of
them? And what is his attitude regarding Hamas’ expressed desire to destroy
Israel? Would he accept a Mexican Government if it were foolish enough to
declare its intention to destroy the United States or try to get rid of such a
government?
If the answers to the above did involve outrage on his part against the
Palestinians for their actions, then I would more readily accept his criticisms of
Israel as not being biased.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 4:46 pm Link to this comment

radson,

“To take sides in this conflict would be short sighted ,especially when both sides refer to the altruistic religious argument as their ‘raison d’être with no end in sight ,because perhaps a certain over-dose of hubris maintains the continual animosity of both sides.”

You don’t need to take sides to accept the fact that Israel is occupying land that does not belong to Israel.

That is the fundamental issue.  It is the only issue.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 4:42 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

“GRYM, you are perceptive”

This must go down as the most hillarious post of the whole thread.  Shenonymous considers the resident village idiot , along with his multiple personalitie4s, with to be “ perceptive”.

“History is conveniently forgotten or rewritten to
provide a hallucination of no culpability on the side of the Arabs.”

How is that possible when Israeli propagandists still get away with claiming hat Israel was attacked in 1967?
“That Israel and Israelis have a great deal of strength is in the history books.”

Qutoe the contrary in fact.  The sad relaity is that the only document the settlers can produce in support of their outrageous claims to own land they don’t own and their mindless violence is the Old Testament.

Wasn’t there a Jewish problem before there was a Palestinian problem? And wasn’t the final solution the same solution? Drive them out and if that fails, kill them. Talk about becoming what you fear. Israel hasn’t got a leg to stand on, legally. They are where they are on the goodwill of America and the west because of their guilt over what happened to Europe’s Jews. This is why the only legal document the settlers can produce in support of their outrageous claims to own land they don’t own and their mindless violence is the Old Testament, a book rich in ethnic cleansing and slaughter of the innocent, all done with the blessing of a man wearing a nightdress who hangs around in the sky. If it wasn’t so tragic, it would be funny. Even worse, America could end this farce any time it wanted by showing some intestinal fortitude, but of course America prefers to invade and destroy third world countries and steal their oil.

“There is selective amnesia when it comes to what happened to the Palestinians that migrated to Lebanon and Jordan.”
That would be because it never happened. People who migrate don’t leave their houses and all their belongings behind.

“ Let us call it human displacement and the quality of treatment they receive.”

let’s not.  Let’s call it what it is.  Ethnic cleansing and genocide.

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By radson, March 17, 2010 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous: Thanks for your reply ,this argument has become such ,that it seems that the conflictors tend to spin around in circles .Personally I have nothing against citizens of the Faith ,but when it becomes
politicized I have my doubt with the value of it’s validity .The oppression subjected towards the Palestinians is morally bankrupt ,in a sense that -is there no way of getting along-.To take sides in this conflict would be short sighted ,especially when both sides refer to the altruistic religious argument as their ‘raison d’être with no end in sight ,because perhaps a certain over-dose of hubris maintains the continual animosity of both sides.Your understanding of the ancient history is commendable and I believe that much is omitted in the history books, by the propagators of parochialism.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 4:32 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

You are seriously deluded.

So now your argument is that no terrorist attacks from the 70,000 Iranians is proof that they exist?  Excuse me while I fix my gaping jaw.  I’m just not used to your wingnut logic (or lack of).  There is no doubt in your mind that there are 70,000 suicide bombers with mind control programs, sitting around in cafes,  waiting to be triggered by a secret signal to be sent out from Amadinejjad’s office.

Tell me Shenonymous, where are they now?  Did they magically sneak into Israel, past Israeli immigration and security?  Are they in Gaza?  It’s not that easy to hide 70,000 people with specially fitted suicide vests.  After all, the Iranian government has had 15 months to outfit them all.

And you state that my questions are rediculous?  Take a look in the mirror you crackpot.
No, the Iranians aren’t in need a lo
t of money.  They are doing business deals with China, Brazil, Russia and India. They have more important things to think about that a 3rd world country like Israel.

Iran is not making nukes either.  The IAEA and all 15 US intelligence agencies continue to confirm that there i no evidence of any nuclear weapons programs.  Just another one of many facts you seem ignorant of.

Now come on, give me another one of your cool headlines. How about “Iran’s leaders declare it is saf to eat Jewish children”?

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By Shenonymous, March 17, 2010 at 4:05 pm Link to this comment

Shingo, wrong.  The 70,000 were fanatical university students.  Did you
read the article or just dismiss it?  These students volunteered several
times before Gaza and the Iranian government did not take them up on
it.  This time the guvamint egged them on.  Now who knows how
‘ready’ these potential bombers are?  Do you know that they are not? 
Don’t be a stupid ass.  All headlines are meaningless, but so what?  So
you could have produced a headline?  So do it.  It would have been
impossible to outfit 70,000 untrained students with vests and dynamite
in the short time this recruitment happened.  I guess they could have
sent them out like mindless buckshot.  And it takes planning and a lot
of money.  So I guess Iran is needing a lot of money and a lot of
dynamite.  Be glad you live is ‘safe’ America.  How ridiculous is your
question?  About as ridiculous as anyone can get.  I posted where
anyone with have a brain could find and read the article for themselves.
You again are a ridiculous comic book character.  Why indeed then
doesn’t Iran outfit Hamas with those F-16’s or their equivalent? 
Because as I said, the Palestinians are political fodder, and Iran needs
all their resources for outfitting 70,000 college student suicide
bombers and developing nuclear weapons.  I don’t feel good at all that
either side were killed and are getting ready to kill each other again.  I
realize how irked you a Hamas partisan are but you know what?  .....
You do babble on and on and on…

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 4:02 pm Link to this comment

“Thus, citizens of other countries, say Belgium could refer to European Jews as ‘Palestinians living among us’.  “

False.  Jews in Europe were not referred to as Palestinians.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 4:00 pm Link to this comment

Walterbard,

“No Christian Scholar of the time made note of any large number of Jews living in Palestine.”

That mean nothing.

“Yes it’s true that during the Middle Ages Moslems treated Jews better than Christians.

But they, along with all other nonmoslems were second class citizens.”

You mean like Israel is today?  Actually, Muslims in Israel closer to 3rd class citizens, behind the Ashkenazim and Sephardim.

“As for your population figures in 1948 I already went over that in previous posts “

Yes and your argument was weak.  The census conducted by the British was extensive.

“As for rocket attacks, they had nothing to do with the erroneous attack on that Gaza beach.”

First, the rocket attacks I am referring to was in relation to the November 4th 2008 attack by Israel on Gaza after a 4 month period of calm (ie. No rockets).

The incident on the beach was likely a consequence of unexploded ordinance left over from the 7,700 shells Israel fired into Gaza from September 2005, to May 2006.

“Hamas fired 10,000 rockets over the years”

Israel fired that many in12 months but in any case, hams have stuck to numerous ceasefire since it was elected and Israel has broken them all.

“Israel defended itself after Hamas announced the end of the truce and started attacking again.”

First, Hamas didn’t announce the end to the truce adn secondly, they didn;t atatck to begin with, so by definition, they couldn’t attack “again”.

The truce was broken by Israel’s November 4th attack.

According to the Israeli press, Yuval Diskin, the current head of the Israeli security service Shin Bet, “told the Israeli cabinet [on 23 December] that Hamas is interested in continuing the truce, but wants to improve its terms.” Diskin explained that Hamas was requesting two things: an end to the blockade, and an Israeli ceasefire on the West Bank. The cabinet – high with election fever and eager to appear tough – rejected these terms.

“Israel didn’t allow newsmen into zones where military operations were going on.

Any country at war would do that.”

False.  Israel’s Supreme Court ruled that journalists were not to be banned from entering Gaza, and the IDF ignored that ruling. The US did not ban journalists from entering Iraq before or during it’s invasion.

“But they were free to go anywhere else.”

Except where the war is taking place?  How convenient,.  The fact is that Israel suffered a tremendous propaganda war in Lebanon in 2006, because journalists on the ground were the re to debunk Israeli propaganda.  This time, they wanted to control the message.

“Hamas didn’t allow newsmen to travel unescorted anywhere in Gaza.”

According to whom? The only newsmen in Gaza were from Arab states.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 3:44 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

 Way…elll, sucker that I am, what is the truth?  Your truth, Shingo?  lol. 

Yes, you are a sucker and you prove it every time.
“I did give the source.  What do you give?  Nothing but static and name-calling. “

You game me a meaningless headline.  I could have produced a headline that said “Iraq WMD found” and that would prove what exactly.  Here’s some advice Shenonymous,  you should read your posts before linking to them.  There was a war in January 2009, and the articel youcuited cliamed that 70,000 Iranians were read to defend Gaza, sop why didn;t they?  Where are these 70,000 suicide bombers?  Are they sleeper celles that didn;t botehr to wake up?

“It is so thumbsucking infantile.  Then go on to show
how it is a lie.  Thank you.”

I did with basic logic. See above.

What’s intellectually flatulent is posting some hysterical headline and expecting others to accept it at face value.  After the Iraq fiasco, one would expect anyone with a brain (even you) to scrutinize such garbage before staking your credibility on it.

“Another article, this time January 2010, CNN regarding child sacrifice. 
Oh yeah.”

And what does that have to do with Iran or even Palestine? Go almighty, it’s a frigging blog, not even a news report.  Talk about scraping the barrel!

Here’s a couple for you to chew on.

“Hamas in call to end suicide bombings”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/09/israel
“Hamas drops call for destruction of Israel from manifesto”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jan/12/israel
So you might want to take your lame cut and paste from your Islamophobic blog and stick it where the sun don;t shine.
What amazes me is how Israelis hills like yourself are so offended y suicide attacks (and I agree they are an outrage) but think that dripping a 5000lb bomb on civilians from 30,000 feet up in the air is a moral and noble acts.  Suicide attacks are an instrument of war used by those with no other means. 

If suicide attacks bother you so much, write to your Congressperson and ask him to send some F-16’s to Hamas in Gaza.  I am pretty sure you ‘ll never see another suicide attack again.

Would you feel better about Hamas military aircraft bombing Israel from high up where you can;t see them?  About them dropping White phosphorous and millions of cluster bombs on Israeli civilians?

At least there woudl be no more suicide bombing Shenonymous, coz you know, anythign is better than a suicide attack.

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By walterbard, March 17, 2010 at 3:44 pm Link to this comment

“The Jews lost Israel in the first century because they were one of the few people to stand up against Roman tyranny.”

True

First of all ancient Israel at first was a satellite state of Rome. It had satellite Kings the most noted was Herod Israel was not a tribe but a Kingdom with cities. There were two rebelions one 65 A.D. and the other in 132. There was some deportation in 65 but many Jews remained. But the Bar Kokhba revolt led to massive deportations.
According to the Roman Historian Cassius Dio close to 600,000 were killed. Cassius lived in the first century and had access to contemporary records of the revolt at that time. Where Sand got the number 10,000 is anyone’s guess. Rome most certainly did depopulate whole nations. Carthage was an example, also Thracia.
Not all Jews were deported but there were very few left until Emperor Constantine who
did allow some Jews to return.  No Christian Scholar of the time made note of any large number of Jews living in Palestine. Archeological sites to reveal a few synagogues but these are dated after Constantine.

Yes it’s true that during the Middle Ages Moslems treated Jews better than Christians.
But they, along with all other nonmoslems were second class citizens.
As for your population figures in 1948 I already went over that in previous posts

As for rocket attacks, they had nothing to do with the erroneous attack on that Gaza beach.
Mistaken identity. There was only one incident. Hamas fired 10,000 rockets over the years
Israel defended itself after Hamas announced the end of the truce and started attacking
again.

Israel didn’t allow newsmen into zones where military operations were going on.
Any country at war would do that. But they were free to go anywhere else.
Hamas didn’t allow newsmen to travel unescorted anywhere in Gaza.

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By Shenonymous, March 17, 2010 at 3:36 pm Link to this comment

radson, you make more sense than most here.  Clear, factual
observation.  I used to think the enmity was religion based, but over
the years I’ve changed my mind after watching the leaders of both
sides give their partisan rants and views.  That the conflict is religious
based it seems a ruse for political utility.  Since neither religion,
Judaism nor Islam, will ever go away, religion becomes an excuse, a
conjurer’s trick, and quite useful for territorial retention and acquisition
purposes. 

The claim is that Israel is ethnically different today than it was of earlier
centuries.  Way….elll, Herodotus also employed the term Palestinian as
an ethnonym, when he spoke of the ‘Syrians of Palestine’ or
‘Palestinian-Syrians,’ an ethnically amorphous group he distinguished
from the Phoenicians referring to the Aramaeic (Semitic) Samaritans led
by Sanbalat and appointed by the Persian kings and the Arabs in
Jerusalem referred to also by Ezra (the Judaic/Christian Bible).

After the Romans adopted the term as the official administrative name
for the region in the 2nd century CE, “Palestine” as a stand alone term
came into widespread use, printed on coins, in inscriptions and even in
rabbinic texts.  The Arabic word Filastin has been used to refer to the
region since the time of the earliest medieval Arab geographers. It
appears to have been used as an Arabic adjectival noun in the region
since as early as the 7th century CE, meaning the years 601-699 of the
Christian Era.  That was about the time Islam came into being, 632 A.D. 

During the British Mandate of Palestine, 1922, the term “Palestinian”
was used to refer to all people residing there, regardless of
religion or ethnicity, and those granted citizenship by the Mandatory
authorities were granted “Palestinian citizenship”.  To refer to as
“Palestinians” both the native Palestinians of all faiths and the non-
Palestinian Jewish settlers alike was consistent with an Orientalist view
of all Jews as “eastern” people, also indigenous to that area.  Notice the
word ‘indigenous.’  I can only hope it is known what that means.  Thus,
citizens of other countries, say Belgium could refer to European Jews as
‘Palestinians living among us’.  So Jews were considered for a time as
Palestinians.  The Palestinian people we know today, is not the same
ethnic group known in earlier centuries.

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By omop, March 17, 2010 at 3:33 pm Link to this comment

Shingo the Historian.

Who murdered the UN mediator Count Bernadotte?

Was it members of Hamas, the PLO or members of the Irgun Zvai Lu, the Stern
Gang or was members of the Boz in de hood?

How did over 650,000 Palestenians end up in refugee camps in Lebanon in
1948/49? were they all pushed out of Jordam. Syria, Egypt or Moldavia?

Were the American spies who provided the Soviet Union with atomic secrets
from the US originally from Palestine or was were they from the Belgian Congo?

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 3:28 pm Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

“Atrocities take place from both sides.  The battles of Arab against Jew is centuries old.  Not fully understanding this takes every current event out of all context.”
So after appearing catatonic and repeating the same posts half a dozen times like Rain Man, GRYM now tries a different tact, the sensible approach that no one is blameless.

You are quite the psychotic aren’t you GRYM? 
- First you come out with false propaganda. 
- Then when I debunk your lies,you responded by wishing me good luck in my life.
- Then you insist that facts are irrelevant, and that what really matters in what the people of Sderot and the people (excluding the Arabs) in the west Bank think.
- You refuse to qualify whether the Arabs in the West Bank are people are repeated the same post half a dozen times.
- Now you’re trying to sound like Gandhi.

No one has aid anything about evil Jewish people.  Many Jews do not support Israel or Israeli policies and that number is on the rise.

You clearly have no concept of the geography in the region,
The West Bank and Gaza are surrounded by some of the poorest nations on earth.  Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are relatively poor countries.  Egypt and Jordan rely on US aid.

While it’s true that the Arab nations have done little to help the Palestinian people, the problem is Israel’s because Israel created it.  The poverty in the consequence of Israel 40 year illegal occupation. Of destroying homes, villages, farms and groves,  Israel has destroyed the means by which Palestinian s in the West Bank and Gaza can sustain themselves.

Israel has also blockaded Gaza, (an act fo war by Israeli standards), which would cripple any state.  Not only that, but Israel demands that the Rafah crossing is sealed, so that nothing can get in and out, so it begs the question how Arab states are supposed to help the Palestinians.
It is not up to the Arab nations to allow Palestinians to emigrate to Arab lands.  Most Palestinians refuse to go there,.  Their home is Palestine.

“ The same nations that refuse to build schools, build commerce, build sewage, power plants and hospitals.”
Is that before or after Israel bombs those to dust?

“Does Israel, at times, go too far?  Yes of course.  It’s what happens when human beings are surrounded on all sides by people attempting to kill them.  It is to be expected and it will continue.”

A typical Zionist lie.  Easily debunked.

22 arab states have signed a peace initiative, which offers to recognizer Israel and normalize relations. Even Iran, Hebollah and Hamas have agreed to the terms of the initiative.  The only condition is that Israel return to the 1967 borers.

Israel has rejected the offer for 7 years.

So you see, Israel does not want peace.  Israel has always refereed land over peace.

“An Arab man or woman can cross into Israel every day in order to work.”

No that too is false.  Sometimes they can and many times they cannot.  They need permits to accepted their own annexe farms and to enter Israel and are forced to pass through check points, which are opened twice a day.

“ That same man or woman can walk the streets, shop in the markets and even attend classes.  No one will molest them.  But a Jew crossing into Gaza will quickly find themselves without a head. “

After murdering 1,300 Palestinians, that’s inevitable.
“Cutting off a head simply for walking the streets seems, at least to most human beings not sicked by blinding hatred, to go too far. “

No one gets their head cut off imply for walking the streets.

Your lies are pathetic.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

walterbard,

part 1 of 2

“The British allowed Arabs in but blocked Jewish immigration which would have been significant if they were allowed in.”

False.

Most of the world’s Jews rejected Zionism and were opposed the the idea of creating a Jewish state.
“Especially since starting in 1922 there were waves of antisemitic pograms in all Arab countries that didn’t cease until 1967 when just about Misrachi Jews were forced out of Arab countries.”

False.  There were no pogroms until after the 1948 war, and even then, they were hardly examples of ethnic cleansing as nearly all who left those Arab states were paid to immigrate to Israel.

Jews, Muslims, and Christians got along just fine before Zionists from Europe showed up with the intent of colonizing and expelling the indigenous population from their land.

The riots and everything else that happened were a response to European Zionists and their violent methods that were aimed at the indigenous Palestinian population with the sole intent of creating a country on land that was already inhabited by another people.

Zionism and what it stands for in the context of Palestine is the sole impediment to peace. The fact that Israelis cannot even accept living with the indigenous people of Palestine as equal citizens is testament to that.

“If any ethnic cleansing was going on it was done by the Arabs. About 850,000 Jews were expelled and 600,000settled in Israel.”

False.  Israel ethnically cleansed 750,000 Palestinians in 1948. The majority of the 900,000 Jews were not exiled from Arab lands. They were asked to migrate and even paid by Israel from the time of the original ethnic cleansing and Tom Segev has expertly outlined the lunacy of Jews who kick out Arabs because they aren’t Jews and import Arab who are Jews.

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PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, March 17, 2010 at 3:11 pm Link to this comment

Boiler room zionists.

http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2009/07/israel-establishes-undercover-group-of.html

Zionism is racism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_3379

Time to revoke the revocation since it was a ruse for Israel to attend the Madrid peace conference.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_madrid_desc.php

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 3:11 pm Link to this comment

Par 2 of 2

There is not a trace of evidence that Jews were exiled from anywhere.

Akiva Orr in his book Israel: Politics, Myths and Identity Crises wrote the following: “in 1948 Jews were not expelled from countries like Iraq, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya, but induced to leave by Zionist emissaries from Israel who often used dirty tricks like throwing bombs into synagogues to create the impression of anti-Jewish persecution to stampede the Jews to Israel.” Once in Israel, some of the Iraqi Jews have even sued the Israeli government for damages. Also, Wilbur Crane Evenlan, a former senior officer in the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) wrote in his 1980 book Ropes of Sand: America’s Failure in the Middle East:

“In attempts to portray the Iraqis as ani-American and to terrorize the Jews, the Zionists planted bombs in the U.S. Information Service library and in synagogues. Soon leaflets began to appear urging Jews to flee to Israel. ... Although the Iraqi police later provided our embassy with evidence to show that the synagogue and library bombings as well as the anti-Jewish and anti-American leaflet campaings had been the work of an underground Zionist organization, most of the world believed reports that Arab terrorism had motivated the flight of the Iraqi Jews whom the Zionists had “rescued” really just in order to increase Israel’s Jewish population.” (pp. 48-49)

Arabs are not afforded the same rights as Jews. They are not allowed to marry Arabs from outside of Israel and bring them to Israel, and of course, they do not have the right of return. The Israel Supreme Court frequently issues orders to evict families from East Jerusalem, that have lived there since before Israel’s creation.

“About 300,000 Arabs remained in Israel after its war of independence. THEY WERE MADE

FULL CITIZENS OF ISRAEL. does that sound like Ethnic cleansing?”

Fine let’s take that logic one step further.

There were still Jews alive after WWII.  Does that mean there was no Holocaust?

“Those Palestinians who left after Israel’s liberation and went to Lebanon were confined to

refugee camps and subject to apartheid not by Israel but by their own Arab bretheren.”

They became refugees because their were driven from their land under threat of massacre by Israeli terrorist groups.  The problem was created by Israel, not Lebanon or Jordan or Egypt or Syria.

“Your comments about terror are simply wrong, stupidly wrong. If you want to read about terror look up what happened to the Jews in Hebron in April 1929 and in Jerusalem after Jordan took it”

Apparently you never heard of the Deir Yassin massacre or the bombing of the King David Hotel.  That’s not to meant the attempt by the Stern Gang to set off bombs in London to threaten the British government.

Bin Laden had nothing on these guys.

Israel went on to elect the leaders of those terrorist gangs to Prime Minister.  Can you name another so called “democracy” that has elected known terrorist the highest office in the land?

Hey did you know that isael celebrated the 60th anniversary of the bombing of the King David Hotel?  Imagine that?  Israel is the only state that celebrates a terrorist attack in it’s name 60 years on.

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By radson, March 17, 2010 at 3:01 pm Link to this comment

This has become quite the debate with a mixture of pros and cons from many sides,however religious or secular one may be.Is it really about David and Goliath or is it more closely related to the holy city of
Jerusalem and the dates of the so-called ‘dates of origin ’ of the conflicting religions.The name of Jerusalem is self explanatory in itself and it also predates the Muslim Prophet by several centuries,even the Persians
can be compared to the Romans in adopting an external belief in that regard .The undeniable truth that both religious denominations leave behind a realm of violence ,that has been more of a detriment to mankind and Planet Earth is worthy of contemplation.The West has been subject to the machinations of the Bible since the Romans adopted the philosophies of the Hebrew Philosopher and the split of Rome between
Roma and Constantinople promoted a conflict of interest which dragged on for many centuries ,caused the death of tens of millions of people and was - supposedly culminated - with the Treaty of Westphalia.Now
this didn’t stop the Russians and their Roman Orthodox arrogance from continuing hostilities towards their neighbors ‘especially Poland ’ where by the way - ITW hails from - now Inherit, Polska deserves some
respect with regards of the Jewish People ,whether your family came from a Stetle or not and the word Polen is Jewish and not Polish.Europe has had it’s fill of Religious conflicts but apparently the young ‘Euro
colony of America has not evolved at the same rate of European mentality with regards to the excesses of the church.This unfortunate Israeli Arab conflict boils down to a Religious conflict of beliefs and interests
where the Holy City of Jerusalem is the center -piece between two different Ideologies that share similar prophesies.Why should people of this Earth be so blindly attracted to either the Bible and or the Koran ,when
other civilizations have prospered and survived millenniums without their influence.

Bobadi: the Chinese and Confucius makes more sense than The Jews and Arabs combined.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, March 17, 2010 at 3:00 pm Link to this comment

 Way…elll, sucker that I am, what is the truth?  Your truth, Shingo?  lol. 
I did give the source.  What do you give?  Nothing but static and name-
calling.  Since these were students, one can imagine they are hanging
out in coffee shops in Iran waiting to be called up to donate their
bodies.  Oh yeah.  Now the article said 70,000 are ready to fight Israel. 
Hardliners called for volunteers to avenge the Israeli offensive in Gaza. 
Now okay, if you want to say it is a lie, do so, but please refrain from
name-calling.  It is so thumbsucking infantile.  Then go on to show
how it is a lie.  Thank you.

Another article, this time January 2010, CNN regarding child sacrifice. 
Oh yeah.
http://sciencereligionnews.blogspot.com/2010/01/images-of-
paradise-and-child-suicide.html

Site address is long so a copy/paste into a browser will be required.  If
you love children, you might check it out.  If not, well what can anyone
say?  F’off?  Oh yeah.

Excerpt from the article: 
“They [the militants] say life is a waste here and if you do a good thing
you will go to heaven, immediately to heaven. For someone who does
not have anything to look forward to, who does not have any
opportunities and is living a wretched life, this sort of thing comes as a
big incentive,” Hussein explains.
  He says the children end up believing that their life in this world
is worthless, that life only starts in the hereafter. The Taliban is
offering them a fast track option to paradise, a longed for escape from
their daily reality surrounded by violence.”  Oh yeah.

  Do you have children?  Would you sacrifice your children?  Bet
you won’t answer those questions. Oh yeah.

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By firefly, March 17, 2010 at 2:52 pm Link to this comment

walterbard,

My point about Israel being a Jewish state is that by definition it automatically discriminates against non Jews.

Sadly, there is always a knee-jerk reaction from Israel’s supporters to say, “others also commit atrocities”. Does that make Israel’s atrocities some how more acceptable? 

You say the Jews were always a minority in every country and this made them subject to the political whims in these countries. On that very premise, the Jewish people should be more sympathetic to those who now find themselves in the same position as they once did, not less. Instead, they have now become the persecutors who subject others to their political whims. Is that not hypocritical?

You again use the issue of history, but as far as I’m concerned, the entire planet has undergone major upheavals of different peoples since the first century, so that is a wasted argument.

Besides, as many scientific papers have shown, the Jews in Israel today are ethnically very different from the Jews of earlier centuries, the Israelites, who probably looked more like the Arabs of today. Islam started in the 7th century and spread across the Arabian peninsula. It has it’s foundation in Judaism. Judaism is the oldest religion of the Abrahamic religions, so people all over the world, whether Christian or Muslim may be descended from those first century Jews, who later converted to Islam and Christianity.

If the Native Americans were able to have their own homeland somewhere in the Americas (because they were here in the first century), would that justify them persecuting and imprisoning non Native Americans simply because they came to America some centuries later?

There are many people (liberals AND conservatives, who rail against the Islamic States on a daily basis - how about watching Fox News for a sample?), and in many countries, e.g. in Iraq, Christians and Jews lived (before the US invasion) side by side with Muslims. In fact, in many Arab countries, if it is predominantly Sunni, you are more likely to be discriminated against if you are Shia, and vice versa.

Nonetheless, discrimination does exist as you say, everywhere. The difference is that in no Muslim country that I’m aware of (maybe with the exception of Indonesia who are occupying East Timor), is there a gradual conquest of the land from people who have lived there for many centuries. Since the end of the Soviet Empire, no other country completely controls the territories of 2.5 million other people, surrounding them with walls, checkpoints, preventing freedom of movement both in and out, denying them basic supplies etc and subjugating an entire population. The west continuously condemns human rights abuses in China (who is occupying Tibetan land) while supplying Israel with the arsenal to persecute the Palestinians.

How can you complain that there is bias (“vehemence and one-sidedness of the criticism”) in favor of Palestinians when Israelis are free and Palestinians are not?

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 2:44 pm Link to this comment

walterbard,

“The Jews lost Israel in the first century because they were one of the few people to stand up against Roman tyranny.”

False.  The Jews lost Israel in the first century because they were overrun by the Roman empire, like so many other tribes.  AsT el Aviv University scholar Shlomo Zand has documented in his book, “When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?” Romans didn’t expel whole nations from their territories. Zand estimates that perhaps 10,000 ancient Judeans were vanquished during the Roman wars, and the remaining inhabitants of ancient Judea remained, converting to Islam and assimilating with their conquerors when Arabs subjugated the area. They became the progenitors of today’s Palestinian Arabs, many of whom now live as refugees who were exiled from their homeland during the 20th century.
This is supported by the fact that 85% of Palestinians have Jewish ancestry. That’s teh real tragedy fo this conflict, because it’s between the one people.


The ownership or control of the region in which Israel existed, Palestine, was passed on from one conqueror to the next. The fact that a handful of Jews hyung around does not mean they held the deeps to the land.

In fact, at the time of Israel’s creation, Jews only owned 7% of the land, and the Arabs owned 50%.  The land was lost to the Jews long ago and the creation of Israel in 1948 had no mention of any claim by Jews to land property in Palestine. The land was given to the State of Israel by Great Britain.

The reference/title Palestine was determined by the British Mandate of Palestine, in 1922 and included all the land lying to the west of the Jordan River; that is, all of what is now Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza Strip. The term “Palestinian” referred to all people residing there, regardless of race or religion. Those granted citizenship, were granted “Palestinian citizenship”. That included descendents of Judah who were there. For the most part Palestinians got along fine until the Russian and European refugees began to arrive.

In fact, Muslims are the only people who have ever protected Jews from persecution,when they fled Spain.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 2:33 pm Link to this comment

walterbard,

“Hedge’s failure to mention that the so-called brutal attack was in response to deliberate rocket attacks launchedby hamas at the Israseli civilian population for years shows him to be utterly biased.”

False.

The rocket attacks were in response to a November 4th attack by Israel that killed 6 Palestinians.  Prior to that date (Israel chose the day of the US elections as cover), there had been a 4 month long ceasefire in which no rockets were fired by Hamas, and a dozen by militants not under Hams control.

“The following is an excerpt from an Amnesty International”
The war was in full swing by the end of December, though Israel had rejected a call by Hams to return to the ceasefire.

Furthermore, there is nothing in the Amnesty International that addresses the war itself.

“Clearly this is report that faults Israel for civilian deaths. But unlike Hedges they mention
the atrocities of Hamas.”

Again Israelis or against their enemies?

“What Hedges conveniently fails to mention is that all witnesses in Gaza that gave testimony in presence of a Hamas agent.”

What you fail to mention is that Israel violated the ruling of it’s own Supreme Court and blocked foreign journalists from entering Gaza.

“With a Hamas agent next to them would they dare tell the truth about Hamas?

“Hamas deliberately hid behind civilians so they could get publicity from bigots like Hedges”:

False. 
There is NO evidence that Hamas used human shields Israel always uses this argument, as they id in Lebanon, and those claims were all debunked.

Amnesty and HRW Claims Discredited in Detailed Report
http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/amnesty_and_hrw_claims_discredited_in_detailed_report
Human Rights Watch: Troubling Report
http://www.nysun.com/opinion/human-rights-watch-troubling-report/46037/
Israeli ‘human shield’ claim is full of holes
http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090113/FOREIGN/591536290/1002

In fact, HRW and the Goldstone report revealed that it was Israel that used human shields, not Hamas.

I could go on and on about what’s phony about the Godlstone report but it would take volumes.

The biggot is clearly you and you simply hate Hedges for exposing Israeli crimes.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 2:25 pm Link to this comment

Liquor Store Larry,

“Hedges is an anti-Semite who is not capable of seeing this situation clearly.”

A typical mind numbing comment from an Israeli shill.  Just like GRYM, you complain about the lack of substance in a critiqeue of Israle, while offering none yourself, other than ad hominems and straw men.

Is it any wonder support for Israel is plummeting in this country, especially among Jews?

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By Shingo, March 17, 2010 at 2:21 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

They say there’s a sucker born every minute and you prove it time and time again.

“2009 Associated Press article in net news, More than 70,000 Iranian
student volunteers have registered to carry out suicide bombings
against Israel because of Israel’s assault on the Gaza Strip.”

How anyone could fall for such a shallow and absurd headline boggles the mind, but then again, the Zionist mind is capable of believing just about anything. 

When I saw this headline, it reminded me of an identical headline that was printed by the Weekly Standard in the lead up to the Iraq war, that he had trained 5000 terrorists.

Of course, your headline was in January of 2009, so you might care to explain what all those 70,000 Iranian suicide bombers are waiting for?

Like I said, there’s a sucker born every minute.

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