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Israel Crackdown Puts Liberal Jews on the Spot

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Posted on Mar 15, 2010
AP / Muhammed Muheisen

Israeli soldiers take position next to the highly controversial security barrier, which has been used, critics say, to seize Palestinian land and manipulate the population.

By Chris Hedges

The Israeli government, its brutal war crimes in Gaza exposed in detail in the U.N. report by Justice Richard Goldstone, has implemented a series of draconian measures to silence and discredit dissidents, leading intellectuals and human rights organizations inside and outside Israel that are accused—often falsely—of assisting Goldstone’s U.N. investigators. The government of Benjamin Netanyahu is attempting to shut down Israel’s premier human rights organizations, including B’Tselem, the New Israel Fund (NIF) and the Association for Civil Rights in Israel. It is busy expelling or excluding peace activists and foreign nationals from the Palestinian territories. The campaign, if left unchecked, will be as catastrophic for Palestinians as it will be for Israel.

The Goldstone report, which is over 500 pages, investigated Israel’s 22-day air and ground assault on Gaza that took place from Dec. 27, 2008, to Jan. 18, 2009. The United Nations and the European Parliament have endorsed the report. The report found that Israel used disproportionate military force against Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip while failing to take adequate precautions to protect the civilian population against the military assault. The Israeli attack killed 1,434 people, including 960 civilians, according to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights. More than 6,000 homes were destroyed or damaged, leaving behind some $3 billion in destruction in one of the poorest areas on Earth. No Israelis were killed by Hamas rockets fired into Israel during the assault. The report did not limit itself to the 22-day attack; rather, it went on to indict the occupation itself. It examines the beginning of the occupation and condemns Israel for the border closures, the blockade and for the wall or security barrier in the West Bank. It has two references to the right of return, investigates Israeli torture and criticizes the willful destruction of the Palestinian economy.


“The impact of the Goldstone report is tremendous,” the Middle East scholar Norman Finkelstein said when I reached him in New York. “It marks and catalyzes the breakup of the Diaspora Jewish support for Israel because Goldstone is the classical Diaspora Jew. He is a lawyer and upholder of human rights and a liberal. He has distinguished himself in the field of law and he is also a lover of Zion. He calls himself a Zionist. His mother was an activist in the Zionist movement. His daughter did aliyah. He sits on the board of governors of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. He has an honorary degree from the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. He has said over and over again that he is a Zionist. He believes Jews have a right to a state in Palestine. His is a mostly emblematic profile of the classically liberal Jew.”

Liberal has a distinct connotation,” Finkelstein went on. “It means to believe in the rule of law. It means to believe in international institutions. It means to believe in human rights. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are liberal organizations. What the Goldstone phenomenon registers and catalyzes is the fact that it is impossible to reconcile liberal convictions with Israel’s conduct; too much is now known about the history of the conflict and the human rights record and the so-called peace process. It is impossible to be both liberal and defend Israeli policy. That was the conflict that confronted Goldstone. I very much doubt he wanted to condemn Israel.”

“Israeli liberalism always had a function in Israeli society,” said Finkelstein, whose new book, “This Time We Went Too Far,” examines the Israeli attack a year ago on Gaza. “When I talk about liberals I mean people like A.B. Yehoshua, David Grossman and Amos Oz. Their function was to issue these anguished criticisms of Israel which not only extenuated Israeli crimes but exalted Israeli crimes. ‘Isn’t it beautiful, the Israeli soul, how it is anguished over what it has done.’ It is the classic case of having your cake and eating it. Not only were any crimes being committed extenuated, but they were beautiful. And now something strange happened. Along comes a Jewish liberal and he says, ‘Spare me your tears. I am only interested in the law.’ ”

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“Goldstone did not perform the role of the Jewish liberal,” Finkelstein said, “which is to be anguished, but no consequences. And all of a sudden Israeli liberal Jews are discovering, hey, there are consequences for committing war crimes. You don’t just get to walk into the sunset and look beautiful. They can’t believe it. They are genuinely shocked. ‘Aren’t our tears consequences enough?’ Aren’t our long eyes and broken hearts consequences enough?’ ‘No,” he said, ‘you have to go to the criminal court.’ ”

The campaign against Israeli dissidents has taken the form of venomous denunciations of activists and jurists, including Justice Goldstone. It includes a bill before the Israeli parliament, the Knesset, which will make it possible to imprison the leaders of Israeli human rights groups if they fail to comply with crippling new registration conditions. Human rights activists from outside Israel who work in the Palestinian territories are being rounded up and deported. The government is refusing to issue work visas to employees of 150 NGOs operating in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, including Oxfam, Save the Children and Médecins Sans Frontières (Doctors Without Borders). The new tourist visas effectively bar these employees from Palestinian territory under Israeli occupation. Professor Naomi Chazan, the Israeli head of the NIF, which has donors in the United States, is being publicly vilified by ultranationalist groups such as Im Tirzu.  Foreign donors to the NIF, as well as other human rights groups, are being pressured by Israeli officials to halt contributions. Billboards have sprouted up around Tel Aviv and Jerusalem with a grotesque caricature of Chazan, who has been branded by groups such as Im Tirzu as an agent for Hamas and Iran, with a horn growing from her forehead. “Naomi-Goldstone-Chazan” the caption on the billboard reads. Im Tirzu, the front organization behind many of the attacks, includes among its financial backers the John Hagee Ministries and the New York Central Fund, which also support extremist settler organizations.


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By Inherit The Wind, April 1, 2010 at 6:44 pm Link to this comment

ITW,

Ther is no “telepathic transmission” or sectret conspiracy ploy.
Al Jazeera is owned and controlled by the government of Qatar which is, “under the table”,  a VERY good friend of Israel.

*********************************************

Your brilliance is dazzling! Next you’ll be saying “Incotheivable!”

Qatar is a VERY good friend of Israel? How do you figure? Like the US is? Because they don’t actively advocate sending in suicide bombers?  Therefore they MUST be Zionists????  Oh, of course, I forgot: you believe the Israel is a Svengali capable of controlling the US by…MIND WAVES!!!

Your paranoid delusions are just plain, well, silly.

Report this
Russian Paul's avatar

By Russian Paul, April 1, 2010 at 3:20 pm Link to this comment

Al Jazeera Chief Wadah Khanfar on yesterdays Democracy Now.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/3/31/al_jazeera_chief_wadah_khanfar_on

Denies that Qatar has any influence on his station. Also denies charges of
zionism. Spends most of the interview kissing Obama’s ass. Makes an awkward
statement, perhaps it’s his english, but he seems to imply the US is no longer at
war with Afghanistan. or that under Obama it’s a more just war? Besides that, he
doesn’t really say anything too critical or too lax, he’s too busy shoving his nose
up Obama’s rectum.

His station certainly does have a subtle zionist influence. Why else would Clinton
and Biden agree to show up unless they were guaranteed softballs?

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 1, 2010 at 9:23 am Link to this comment

With all this talk of everyone calling everyone else a Zionist, I have decided there is a void in the world in general and the music world particular, the dire need for some sort of Zionist theme song or tune, you know; to kind of set the mood. So, I may have done it, what do you think?

Old Abe Needleman had a bagel store
Ee i ee i oh!
And on that store he had some moth balls,
Ee i ee i oh!
With a Zionist-Zionist here,
And a Zionist-Zionist there

Here a Zionist, there a Zionist,
Everywhere a Zionist-Zionist
Old Abe Needleman had a bagel store
Ee i ee i oh!

Now I admit as fact, and some of the brighter people out their in web land may have noticed, this is to the tune of Old “McDonald had a farm”, but lets face it, I doubt very much with factoids of clarity,  McDonald would not have owned or lived on a bagel store! So after more grueling practice developing my ability to play the bagpipes and sing at the same time, I will finish this tune and believe you me, it well be a hit!  You have to admit it seems so catchy, I know for a fact this will be on everyone’s lips because it is so much more classy, than just….... saying; “Your a Zionist”!

Report this

By truedigger3, April 1, 2010 at 9:16 am Link to this comment

ITW wrote:
“And you know this by…telepathic transmissions from Extra-terrestrials that got past your tin-foil hat?

The old “secret conspiracy” ploy, eh?

And your evidence is…????? “
__________________________________________________

ITW,

Ther is no “telepathic transmission” or sectret conspiracy ploy.
Al Jazeera is owned and controlled by the government of Qatar which is, “under the table”,  a VERY good friend of Israel.

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, April 1, 2010 at 8:38 am Link to this comment

The question of Palestine

By Edward W. Said


About the Author

{Edward W. Said was born in Jerusalem, raised in Jerusalem and Cairo, and educated in the United States, where he attended Princeton (B.A. 1957) and Harvard (M.A. 1960; Ph.D. 1964). In 1963, he began teaching at Columbia University, where he was University Professor of English and Comparative Literature.}


~~~~~~~~~~~

Click on link to read introduction/content of book and a few section(s). The book is a little old, but I have just ordered it:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Pa89AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+question+of+palestine&source=bl&ots=x2vKNZCB9V&sig=amhceKmOrqpvS_d3u2TJf6UjbGE&hl=en&ei=mAy0S_PsCoH68Aao65xT&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, April 1, 2010 at 7:46 am Link to this comment

Goldstone Facts

The Real Story Behind Israel’s Attack On Gaza

Deliberate Attacks against the Civilian Population

Factual Findings narrated by Ross Vachon

Factual and Legal findings narrated by Noam Chomsky

Live Testimonies relevant to the Goldstone Report’s Findings

The video also contains live testimonies of Khalid, Kawthar and Samar Abd Rabbo before the UN Fact Finding Mission headed by Justice Richard Goldstone.

For more information on this video, please go to http://www.goldstonefacts.org

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Click on link for details/videos:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24649.htm

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, April 1, 2010 at 4:20 am Link to this comment

elisalouisa, April 1 at 12:05 am #

ITW:ElisaLouisa: Go ahead, have a good laugh!  Why shouldn’t you have some fun, too? I have to give some credit—at least YOU realize that the idea of Al Jazeera as
Zionists is probably (!) absurd!
I did have a good laugh at this line.
“Take two reality pills, a fifth of vodka and don’t call me in the morning.”

*************************************

Thanks! At least we have found some common ground.

Ardee now claims I don’t have a sense of humor….

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, April 1, 2010 at 4:19 am Link to this comment

truedigger3, April 1 at 5:13 am #

ITW wrote:
“But, despite the torrent of illogic, I’m STILL trying to figure out how, in that pretzel brain, you decided that the open, although heavily biased Al Jazeera is a Zionist Org.”
_____________________________________________________

ITW,

I didn’t say that Al Jazeera is, “out in the open”, a Zionist Org., but what I said is that Al Jazeera is having a strong Zionist influence in a “CAMOUFLAGED AND CLEVER WAY” because if Al Jazeera was, “out in the open”, a Zionist Org., then that will undermine its primary mission, which is to bullshit the peoples of the Middle East and the rest of the world about the situation in the M.E.
************************************************

And you know this by…telepathic transmissions from Extra-terrestrials that got past your tin-foil hat?

The old “secret conspiracy” ploy, eh?

And your evidence is…?????

Report this

By truedigger3, April 1, 2010 at 2:13 am Link to this comment

ITW wrote:
“But, despite the torrent of illogic, I’m STILL trying to figure out how, in that pretzel brain, you decided that the open, although heavily biased Al Jazeera is a Zionist Org.”
_____________________________________________________

ITW,

I didn’t say that Al Jazeera is, “out in the open”, a Zionist Org., but what I said is that Al Jazeera is having a strong Zionist influence in a “CAMOUFLAGED AND CLEVER WAY” because if Al Jazeera was, “out in the open”, a Zionist Org., then that will undermine its primary mission, which is to bullshit the peoples of the Middle East and the rest of the world about the situation in the M.E.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 1, 2010 at 12:00 am Link to this comment

So, says the SheWolf, huffing and puffing, you are saying that the
Palestinians wanted Hamas to shill the violence for them?  Interesting,
since when I said that weeks ago, you denied it!  Waffling are you
Shingo?  Let’s see, now I am a patronizing bigot.  (Uh, you need a
spelling dictionary).  Who cares where the Muslims live that are
supporters of Israel?  I don’t and neither do they?  Why not call me one
of them?  Let’s see again.  What is a good name for them Shingo, you
are the name-caller.  So there are Muslim-Hating Muslims too.  Just
like Jew-hating Jews?  WOW! Shingo, what a revelation.  I love it!  Hey
maybe they can have a basketball game. Amon has already bought a
ticket!  LOL

http://formermuslimsunited.americancommunityexchange.org/
http://arabsforisrael.blogspot.com/2009/02/who-are-we_09.html
Yeah, they are here in America because they would be shot dead in the
Middle East.  There is no freedom of speech rights there.  There is
apostasy though.  Even in Israel freedom of speech is not as sacred as
a democracy should be particularly in the Territories.  A check of the
Reporters Without Borders annual report 2009, Israel is ranked 93 out
of more than 175 entrants in honoring freedom of the press. Lebanon
is ranked 61, The extra-territories of the USA 108, Jordan 112, Egypt
143, Iraq 145, Israel extra-territorial 150, Palestinian Territories 161,
Saudi Arabia 163, Syria 165, Yemen 167, Iran 172.  Very interesting
relative ranking of the right to freedom of the press which is based on
the sacrosanct freedom of speech.  The New York Review of Books
reports January 2010 that published strong critic who has “challenged
traditional assumptions about Israel,” called post Zionists, Tom Segev,
lives in Jerusalem.  http://www.rsf.org/en-classement1001-2009.html
It must be said that regarding the United States and its Constitutional
guarantee of the freedom of speech and the press, the RWB says:  “The
United States has climbed 16 places in the rankings, from 36th to 20th,
in just one year. Barack Obama’s election as president and the fact that
he has a less hawkish approach than his predecessor have had a lot to
do with this.

But this sharp rise concerns only the state of press freedom within the
United States. President Obama may have been awarded the Nobel
peace prize, but his country is still fighting two wars. Despite a slight
improvement, the attitude of the United States towards the media in
Iraq and Afghanistan is worrying. Several journalists were injured or
arrested by the US military. One, Ibrahim Jassam, is still being held in
Iraq.”

Report this

By elisalouisa, March 31, 2010 at 9:05 pm Link to this comment

ITW:ElisaLouisa: Go ahead, have a good laugh!  Why shouldn’t you have some fun, too? I have to give some credit—at least YOU realize that the idea of Al Jazeera as
Zionists is probably (!) absurd!
I did have a good laugh at this line.
“Take two reality pills, a fifth of vodka and don’t call me in the morning.”

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, March 31, 2010 at 8:02 pm Link to this comment

truedigger3, March 31 at 10:05 pm #

Inherit The Wind wrote addressing me:
“I GOT it! ANYBODY who isn’t an Islamic radical or even an Islamic terrorist MUST be a Zionist!”
_____________________________________________________

ITW,

My reply is that, according to you, anyone who dares a whiff of critisism for zionism and Israel, is an Islamic Radical and a possible terrorist which is obviously not true and a trite scare tactic.
For your own information, I was born to a Christian family and was babtised when I wan an infant, and now, I am 1000% an atheist.
Try something else.!!

*****************************************

An Atheist is a believer and has faith—that there is no God.  But that fits because you STILL accept so much on faith.  I, OTOH am Agnostic.  I challenge faith and belief as invalid sources of knowledge.

But, despite the torrent of illogic, I’m STILL trying to figure out how, in that pretzel brain, you decided that the open, although heavily biased Al Jazeera is a Zionist Org.

Take two reality pills, and a fifth of vodka, and don’t call me in the morning.

Report this

By truedigger3, March 31, 2010 at 7:05 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind wrote addressing me:
“I GOT it! ANYBODY who isn’t an Islamic radical or even an Islamic terrorist MUST be a Zionist!”
_____________________________________________________

ITW,

My reply is that, according to you, anyone who dares a whiff of critisism for zionism and Israel, is an Islamic Radical and a possible terrorist which is obviously not true and a trite scare tactic.
For your own information, I was born to a Christian family and was babtised when I wan an infant, and now, I am 1000% an atheist.
Try something else.!!

Report this

By Shingo, March 31, 2010 at 6:29 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

You just proved that there is a sucker born every minute.

You are also a patronizing biggot. The Palestinians elected Hamas to represent them, so don’t waste your time pretending that Hamas are not Palestinians.

Those web sites are brave Muslims are they?  Muslims living in the US and only too happy to spew out Islamophobic diatribes that idiots like yourself are only too happy to hear.  Of course, you would be proud to meet these people, because they hate Muslims as much as you do.  You’ll probably bump into them when you attend the next Sarah Palin rally.

Check out the Arabs For Israel web site and check out the front cover of Now They Call me Infidel.  Woman who claism to be a Muslim standing in front of an American flag.

Did I say there’s a sucker born every minute?

Report this

By Amon Drool, March 31, 2010 at 6:13 pm Link to this comment

the shingo/shepotamus match-up is startin’ to remind me of an NBA confrontation.  a trash talking point guard keeps driving to the hoop and finds his attempts to score are easily swatted away by an unrelenting, determined opponent.  the opponent then gives the point guard his get-that-weakshit-outa-here glare.

how will this confrontation end?  i’m predicting thusly.  the yappy point guard will finally realize he has had enough.  but, as is his style, he will declare that he was just playin’ ya all thus time…forcing u to react to his game-playing agenda.  he will leave the gym with an affectedly jaunty walk and go onto another game with the same outcome…rinse and repeat.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, March 31, 2010 at 6:10 pm Link to this comment

truedigger3, March 31 at 10:26 am #

Inherit The Wind wrote:
“TD3 is correct that Al Jazeera is…..ZIONIST?  And you wonder why I laugh at you two?  “
____________________________________________________

ITW,

It is not my fault that you don’t have a good grasp of the murkiness and nuances of the politics of the Middle East, and add to that the effect of your zionist blinders.
*****************************************

I GOT it! ANYBODY who isn’t an Islamic radical or even an Islamic terrorist MUST be a Zionist!

TD3—I guess it’s really “TooDumbtimesThree!”

The nuances I don’t understand are the nuances of your murky irrational thinking.

ElisaLouisa: Go ahead, have a good laugh!  Why shouldn’t you have some fun, too? I have to give some credit—at least YOU realize that the idea of Al Jazeera as Zionists is probably (!) absurd!

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, March 31, 2010 at 5:12 pm Link to this comment

That is so nice of you Shingo to reprint the web addresses of Muslims
for Israel.  Thank you!  The SheWolf huffs and puffs and blows your
house of straw down!  LOL Of course you would say the websites
are propaganda!  Militant Islamist sympathizers are expected to say
that they are!  How gullible it is of you to think your response was not
expected!  LOL again.  No joke.  I will attach those two websites to all
my posts from now on.  I’ve read some of the articles and comments
and I must say I am overwhelmed there are Muslims who are brave
enough to say what they do?  I said I thought the Palestinians just want
to have a decent life and would prefer Hamas to leave them alone. 
Now I believe it even stronger.  I would be proud to meet these people. 
What big hearts they have!

I have not said, nor ever said, the Israel was right, or that they ought to
not be censured for their bloody actions.  I have said that they have a
side as much as the Arabs.  So there you are.  Huff n’Puff SheWolf says.

Any reason Shingo why your criticisms ought to be believed more than
their testimonial support for Israel?  If I were you, I would send my
criticisms straight to their websites, if you dare. They are live websites. 
What a howl that would be.

http://formermuslimsunited.americancommunityexchange.org/
http://arabsforisrael.blogspot.com/2009/02/who-are-we_09.html

Report this

By Shingo, March 31, 2010 at 4:54 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

“The following two websites are astonishing.”

What’s astonishing is your inability to identify an propaganda site.

For example, Arabs For Israel makes no mention of a Palestinian state and worst of all, it throws in this Zionist canard:

“If Palestinians want democracy they can start practicing it now. “

It appears Arabs For Israel missed the part about Palestinians holding A democratic election and voting for Hamas, for which Israel set about punishing them for making the wrong choice.

“It will benefit Arabs to end the boycott of Israel”

No mention of whether it would benefit the Arabs if Israel lifted the blockade of Gaza.

Zionist garbage.

The next wed site is even worse:
“formermuslimsunited”

They endorse Melanie Phillips, the grand poobah or Islamophobic crackpots in Great Britain.

Please tell me this was meant to be a joke Shen. Surely, not even you are that stupid and gullible?

These are links to two
different groups of Muslims who are supporters of Israel.  While I have
always said Muslims just being Muslims are ordinary and good people
who would rather just have peace and be able to join the rest of the
world in the 21st century, and this may be checked out on every forum
in which I have participated where Islamic terrorism has been the topic.
It is when Muslims fall for the rhetoric of militant Islamist’s violence and
imperialism that they cease to be humans.  This violent impulse is not
limited to Islamists.  The current insanity that has been exposed in
American culture these last few days with militant Ultra-Right Wing
factions are equally derelict against all principles of humanity.

http://formermuslimsunited.americancommunityexchange.org/

http://arabsforisrael.blogspot.com/2009/02/who-are-we_09.html

Report this
PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, March 31, 2010 at 4:45 pm Link to this comment

I thought Ahmadinajad hated Jews and vice versa.  At least thats what the owned media wants you to think.

Seems the real Jews awarded him in 2009.

http://www.rense.com/general90/met.htm

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, March 31, 2010 at 3:52 pm Link to this comment

Shin,
This is for you…It is an allegory that I think fits your and my dialogue
perfectly.  You are the man in the black pants, I am the yellow cat!
http://films.nfb.ca/runaway/the-cat-came-back.php

The following two websites are astonishing.  These are links to two
different groups of Muslims who are supporters of Israel.  While I have
always said Muslims just being Muslims are ordinary and good people
who would rather just have peace and be able to join the rest of the
world in the 21st century, and this may be checked out on every forum
in which I have participated where Islamic terrorism has been the topic. 
It is when Muslims fall for the rhetoric of militant Islamist’s violence and
imperialism that they cease to be humans.  This violent impulse is not
limited to Islamists.  The current insanity that has been exposed in
American culture these last few days with militant Ultra-Right Wing
factions are equally derelict against all principles of humanity.

http://formermuslimsunited.americancommunityexchange.org/

http://arabsforisrael.blogspot.com/2009/02/who-are-we_09.html

Report this

By Shingo, March 31, 2010 at 2:12 pm Link to this comment

Shen,
You waste half your post huffing and puffing about how I’m mean to you.  It’s soooo boring.  If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.  And no, that’s not a reference to you being a woman.

“To recap the origins of Zionism and Arab Nationalism (minimum copying/pasting)”

From your cut and post.

“He claims, with recorded history as a witness, Jewish/Arab relations were fairly lackluster up to the advent of World War 1.”

Exactly.  And what was happening during WWI that produced a turnaround?  Jewish immigration to Palestine.

“.. I will just add what he says to the pile of data that is accumulating on my desk.”

Sorry Shen, but fingers paintings and Mad Magazines magazines are not data.

Report this

By Shingo, March 31, 2010 at 2:04 pm Link to this comment

GRYM,

Why are you not taking your medication?

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, March 31, 2010 at 9:18 am Link to this comment

By Leefeller, March 31 at 10:47 am #

Robert,

Calling me weefeller instead of my real name Leefeller, really hurts my feelers Robert. (wait I need to stop sobbing, I am okay now).

Robert, I have never mentioned my height on TD before, but you have really hit me where it hurts. Now you know I had the pleasure to serve my country in Vietnam, because I have mentioned it before on several occasions.  However you do not know, I had much difficulty joining up up with the Marine Corps( because I wanted to go to Vietnam)  it seems my height as a problem and the fact I skip every where I go instead of walk was thought to be a bit strange. (The recruiter thought it might be a problem in marching).

Being three feet tall is not easy you know! All my life I have heard short jokes, over and over, ever since I was knee high to a grass hopper, it has been the same thing weefeller this and weefeller that! Laugh, Laugh!

Lucky I finally talked them into accepting me in the Marine Coups, (because I really wanted to go to Vietnam)  it took some very diplomatic persuasion and I was even able to talk them into letting me skip instead of march. (it was the only way I could keep up, though it seems my boots never lasted very long)!

So, Robert I was lucky to skip all the way to Vietnam, but not during the 20 hour flight except to go the little boys room!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well that poor weefeller…I did not know that you have been called that for years. You must have been a great talker to convince them to let you join the service and to go to ‘Nam! I bet going to the “men’s” bathroom was a real chore for you. Did they provide you with a small stool or a small trampoline to take a whiz?

I have two relatives who served in Vietnam, but they don’t like to talk about it at all.

Thanks for sharing your past on this forum and hopefully it wasn’t too painful for you.

BTW, I won’t refer to your height when I use weefeller…OK!

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, March 31, 2010 at 8:54 am Link to this comment

By truedigger3, March 30 at 10:50 pm #

Robert posted in March 30 at 9:07 pm # :


“Samson and the 2nd Nakba -

A Short Study of the Jewish Hercules

By Gilad Atzmon

“March 28, 2010 “Information Clearing House”— As much as many of us enjoyed watching the humiliation of Israel and PM Netanyahu in Washington this week”
____________________________________________________

Robert,

I am surprised you fell for that theatrical shtick that was just only designed for public consumption and bullshitting.
What “humiliation”??!!
What did change? The money is still flowing and the arms are still flowing as usual.
And hey, big chunk of that money is used in building new settlements and settling it!!!. What a farce??!!

~~~~~~~~~~

trudigger3,

Israel will continue to siphon our US taxpayer’s money…non-stop. They get from $3 - $5 billion dollars annually, but they still want more.

AIPAC has a tight grip and controls most of the US congressmen/senators. The American House of representatives is Israel’s “Occupied Territory”.

AIPAC got some 300 congressmen to sign a letter of support for Netanyahu/Israel’s policy of building in East Jerusalem and non-stop settlements in the West Bank. That letter was given to Hillary Clinton.

Obama, Biden & Hillary fear AIPAC and they know the consequences if they ever tried to withhold that huge American aid which is given to Israel on a yearly basis.

Its the American taxpayers who are subsidizing all of the zionist settlements/colonies, wars, occupations…etc… These settlements are for “Jewish settlers only”. No Christians, no Arabs, No Moslems…etc… are allowed to live there.

Netanyahu knows just about every secret/plan in that white House/Halls of US Government. There are zionist agents in every US branch of government. Rahm Emmanuel and Axelrod are the ears/mouths for Israel/Zionism’s goals/objectives.

Netanyahu is a deceptive liar, but he must know many top secrets relating to the CIA, Pentagon, US/Covert operations and much more. Blackmailing has been one of the methods AIPAC/ADL/Israel uses to conduct their mode of business.

You are quite right about Israel’s aid still flows and the settlements just keep increasing.

Israel is spending tens of billions of US dollars on these settlements and do you think they are going to give them up?

Israel tells America…just give us the $$$ and stay the hell out of our business!

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By Shenonymous, March 31, 2010 at 8:41 am Link to this comment

Moral coward!  Moral coward?  Me? A moral coward?  Oh my god! 
I’ve been found out?  Well…maybe.  Shingo that is just another name
you call me without showing how I’m a moral coward!  It could be
that I am, but you have not shown that I am.  You have to do more. 
Crap doesn’t work with you because among all the crap that is already
in your head, adding a bit more crap just gets lost.  And forensics just
would not be able to sort it all out.  We have already seen your
fascination with feces.

Who is the fool that says the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is not complex? 
Only one.  Shingo, the perverted wiper of women’s behinds.  Compared
to you a chihuaua would be more proficient at providing sources for its
barks.  Or, a pig it sources for its oinks!  Nothing more needs said.

Distortion is the tool of folks like you, Shingo, and your staff.  Unable
to back up your accusations, criticisms, or verbal abuses, you retreat
into insulting language, crudity and offensive name-calling as a
pathetic substitute for reasoned argument.  This is because you do not
have any skill at objective discussion.  You have admitted you rely on
only one source, Tom Segev.  One source does not a scholar make.  It
makes a zealot.  Segev, like Hedges, is not universally considered a
meticulous scholar either.

The malaise of inability to speak with any authority winds up with the
most groveling means of winning arguments by verbal thuggery and if
given the chance, you and your staff would without a blink physically
harm those who disagree.  You are the equivalent of terrorists in verbal
form.  This is the grim kind of lowlife that is arguing on this forum.

What you say is glaringly seen on the forum and what I say is just as
glaringly seen.  It can be read by all who are used to suppling backup
resources and by those who just blow ever-regenerating hot (smelly)
air.  Conclusions will be made from the biases each reader brings to the
conversation. 

To recap the origins of Zionism and Arab Nationalism (minimum
copying/pasting)

Contrary to popular belief, the Isareli-Palestinian conflict has only been
the struggle seen on the world stage we see today for less than a
hundred years and is not given its antagonistic energy from ancient
times or as a blood feud stretching over centuries as some journalists
or others who wish to distort history describe it.  Tessler redescribes
the dispute saying that a review of Jewish and Arab history reveals that
the dynamics that respective responses to their interaction were the
result of modern internal motivating forces along with the world events
of their era.  He goes on to say that a comprehensive look at each
people’s history must be understood properly, free from stereotyping,
in the “context” of their own culture.  He claims, with recorded history
as a witness, Jewish/Arab relations were fairly lackluster up to the
advent of World War 1.  Since I cannot prove anything Tessler says, I
will just add what he says to the pile of data that is accumulating on
my desk.  But it seems to me what he says so far, is probably true.  To
be continued. 

Sources this time: 
A History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict - Mark A. Tessler, Indiana
University Press

Leefeller! You are only three feet tall?!  Well that might not be too bad
in itself, skipping an all.  It depends on how much you weigh!

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By Leefeller, March 31, 2010 at 7:47 am Link to this comment

Robert,

Calling me weefeller instead of my real name Leefeller, really hurts my feelers Robert. (wait I need to stop sobbing, I am okay now).

Robert, I have never mentioned my height on TD before, but you have really hit me where it hurts. Now you know I had the pleasure to serve my country in Vietnam, because I have mentioned it before on several occasions.  However you do not know, I had much difficulty joining up up with the Marine Corps( because I wanted to go to Vietnam)  it seems my height as a problem and the fact I skip every where I go instead of walk was thought to be a bit strange. (The recruiter thought it might be a problem in marching).

Being three feet tall is not easy you know! All my life I have heard short jokes, over and over, ever since I was knee high to a grass hopper, it has been the same thing weefeller this and weefeller that! Laugh, Laugh!

Lucky I finally talked them into accepting me in the Marine Coups, (because I really wanted to go to Vietnam)  it took some very diplomatic persuasion and I was even able to talk them into letting me skip instead of march. (it was the only way I could keep up, though it seems my boots never lasted very long)! 

So, Robert I was lucky to skip all the way to Vietnam, but not during the 20 hour flight except to go the little boys room!

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By elisalouisa, March 31, 2010 at 4:47 am Link to this comment

I know Radson that you had no malaise to invoke and I hope I did not imply that.
The humor I find on this thread is not of a comic nature.

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By Go Right Young Man, March 31, 2010 at 4:26 am Link to this comment

Another day.  Another sunrise from the East.  Damn those Zionist dogs! 

Why are the thugs and thieves on the U.N. Human Rights Council not all over this travesty?

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By truedigger3, March 31, 2010 at 3:26 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind wrote:
“TD3 is correct that Al Jazeera is…..ZIONIST?  And you wonder why I laugh at you two?  “
____________________________________________________

ITW,

It is not my fault that you don’t have a good grasp of the murkiness and nuances of the politics of the Middle East, and add to that the effect of your zionist blinders.

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By Shingo, March 31, 2010 at 3:03 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

You are such a moral coward. You can’t come to terms with the fact that you are an intellectual midget so you hide behind your gender identity and use it as some moral shield.

That crap doesnt work with me so don’t waste your time. It’s not my fault you’re an ignoramus.

There is nothing complexes about the IP conflict.  Israel occupies land that belongs to someone else.  That’s all there is to it.

The reason peace hasn’t happened is that there isn’t the political will.  Simple.  Even Zionists who don;t want this issue resolved will tell you that.

So why do you insist on playing so painfully dumb?  Or can’t you help it?

While I think it’s commendable that you are becoming so proficient at using Google, take the time to read all those articles and educate yourself, rather than fetching like some puppy trying to please it’s owner.

You seem desperate for my approval, which is a mystery to me. If you want to becoem edcuated, do it for your own reasons, not so that I can pat you on the head and tell you what a good girl you are.

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By Shenonymous, March 31, 2010 at 1:07 am Link to this comment

Shingo, you show yourself to be vulgar and morally intemperate
revealing where your crude mind resides.  It seems your habit is to
wipe women’s behinds?  Again your words belie a violent nature.

The claim of verifiable facts, that you never give, shows just how
ridiculously deficient your grasp is of presenting intelligent dialogue. 
There is no sense in discussing your scholarship since you have none
so I will just let it stand as your handicap.  You must be so
embarrassed that your only defense is to continue your wretched attack
against me.

I concede that the IP situation is a horrendous complexity.  For those
who are not either Arab or Jew it is not perfectly obvious what is the
historical truth.  For those that are, a biased view precludes neutrality. 
A way for ordinary people, meaning people not involved in the conflict
either directly or indirectly, who are concerned and interested in
understanding why it seems impossible for a peace to happen, is
through research and open-minded dispassionate discussion.  Anything
else is a retreat to personal opinion that has no basis for credibility.
Towards that end a number of important resources are offered. 
However, some of them are not allowed to be printed on a blogsite
such as Truthdig.  Most are accessible and listed at the site: The
Conflict in Palestine at http://sacarcims.sac.accd.edu/pal/palcg.html
a free online course on the Middle East that some could find
worthwhile.  The following are the names of the sites some addresses
provided:

The Palestinian Authority - website not permitted to be printed
here.  See the Curriculum Guide.
ABC News
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/israel_maps.html
Al Jadid Research Center (Jordan) - website not permitted to be
printed here.  See the Curriculum Guide.
Anti-Defamation League (Jewish Organization)
http://www.adl.org/
CIA - http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html
Electronic Intifada (Palestinian movement) - website not
permitted to be printed here.  See the Curriculum Guide.
European Union - http://europa.eu.int/
InfoPlease Countries of the World -
http://www.infoplease.com/countries.html
Israeli Government - website not permitted to be printed here. 
See the Curriculum Guide.
Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs - website not permitted to be
printed here.  See the Curriculum Guide.
Jewsweek - website not permitted to be printed here.  See the
Curriculum Guide.  Access the site then click on News.
Kach Website (Jewish Terrorist Organization) - website not
permitted to be printed here.  This is blocked completely. 
League of Nations Proposal – a see Wikipedia at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Peace_Conference,_1919
Palestinian Information Center - only available in arabic.  See the
Curriculum Guide.
Palestinian National Authority - website not permitted to be
printed here.  See the Curriculum Guide.
Syrian Government Website - website not permitted to be printed
here.  See the Curriculum Guide.
United Nations (main site) - http://www.un.org/
USAID - http://www.usaid.gov/locations/middle_east/
United States Department of State - http://www.state.gov/
Yahoo - http://kids.yahoo.com/directory/Around-the-
World/Countries/Israel/Conflict
Note:  some sites are too long for TD and must be copied pasted into
browser.

It is only through a search for information that discussion of any worth
may at least be possible.  The way of the fanatic is a losing
proposition.

A continuation of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict as I have been able to
obtain it I’ll get back to later on starting with Nasser’s death in 1970. 
Sadat’s star rises and a few missteps on his part gets him in fatal
trouble with fundamentalists.

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By radson, March 30, 2010 at 9:21 pm Link to this comment

elisalouisa

I am not laughing at ‘bald men with pony-tails’ in particular ,but more so in the way that it was expressed ,meaning that bald men are bald and in essence ,without hair .Iam aware that certain civilizations have the ‘look ’ that intriques you ,but I had no malaise to invoke.

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By elisalouisa, March 30, 2010 at 8:21 pm Link to this comment

By radson, March 30 at 10:53 pm #
Leefeller
Hahaha ,that was pretty good ,I had a good laugh.But watch out for ‘bald men with pony-tails’.

I have always found bald men with pony-tails quite intriguing. They emit an aura of intellectual possibility with an unconventional twist. I won’t say what type of hair cut to stay away from, a Truthdigger might just sport that style.

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By elisalouisa, March 30, 2010 at 7:57 pm Link to this comment

Yes, ITW, saying Aljazeera is Zionist is exaggerated. However, it is not as truth searching as it once was. It is more seriously leaning toward the middle. Kindly bear in mind that you are not the only one laughing at some of the posts on TD.

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By radson, March 30, 2010 at 7:53 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller

Hahaha ,that was pretty good ,I had a good laugh.But watch out for ‘bald men with pony-tails’.

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By truedigger3, March 30, 2010 at 7:50 pm Link to this comment

Robert posted in March 30 at 9:07 pm # : 


“Samson and the 2nd Nakba -

A Short Study of the Jewish Hercules

By Gilad Atzmon

“March 28, 2010 “Information Clearing House”— As much as many of us enjoyed watching the humiliation of Israel and PM Netanyahu in Washington this week”
____________________________________________________

Robert,

I am surprised you fell for that theatrical shtick that was just only designed for public consumption and bullshitting.
What “humiliation”??!!
What did change? The money is still flowing and the arms are still flowing as usual.
And hey, big chunk of that money is used in building new settlements and settling it!!!. What a farce??!!

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By Inherit The Wind, March 30, 2010 at 7:39 pm Link to this comment

elisalouisa, March 30 at 9:40 pm #

Of course you are correct TD 3 about Aljazeera. Still, I find it more palatable than MSM. A few years back Aljazeera was less guarded in its comments. I cannot help but wonder if there was ownership or/and management change in recent years that resulted in a more mainstream reporting of the news.
***************************************

TD3 is correct that Al Jazeera is…..ZIONIST?  And you wonder why I laugh at you two?  You need a better brand of tin-foil—those cosmic rays from alien spaceships are frying both your brains.  You are both as far out of touch with reality as GRYM.

Well, maybe not THAT far—but getting closer!

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, March 30, 2010 at 6:56 pm Link to this comment

Democracy Now! Analysis of Goldstone Report

“UN Inquiry Finds Israel “Punished and Terrorized” Palestinian Civilians, Committed War Crimes During Gaza Assault”


AMY GOODMAN:  A United Nations fact-finding mission has found Israel, quote, “punished and terrorized” civilians in its three-week assault on Gaza earlier this year and cited strong evidence that Israeli forces committed “grave breaches” of the Geneva Conventions. More than 1,400 Palestinians, about a third of them women and children, were killed in the assault. Thirteen Israelis died.

The 575-page report came at the end of a six-month inquiry and was based on dozens of interviews and investigations. The inquiry was led by Judge Richard Goldstone, the former chief prosecutor of the international courts for Yugoslavia and Rwanda. Judge Goldstone said Israel deliberately attacked civilians and failed to take precautions to minimize loss of civilian life.

~~~~~~~

Click on link for the script and video:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/democracy-now-analysis-of-goldstone-report/

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By elisalouisa, March 30, 2010 at 6:40 pm Link to this comment

Of course you are correct TD 3 about Aljazeera. Still, I find it more palatable than MSM. A few years back Aljazeera was less guarded in its comments. I cannot help but wonder if there was ownership or/and management change in recent years that resulted in a more mainstream reporting of the news.

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By Leefeller, March 30, 2010 at 6:08 pm Link to this comment

Okay, after watching the master debater Shingles in action. I decided I would emulate his professional technique of pouring copious amounts of salt on the open wounds of any alleged opponent.  So it was decided, I would approach a random stranger on the street and try it out. I was primed and ready to do some professional insulting, debunking and and debating using the Shingles tool box of debunking, I had a plan, hell,  I even had cards printed.

My business cards had my name (though not my real name leefeller ) followed in large print proudly displaying after my name;  Most Honorable and professional debater, debaucher and debunker just below I listed my ex wife’s phone number.  Everyone knows having cards printed makes a professional, so it seemed I was ready to embark on debunking.

My plan was to stop and offer the first person I met on the street 20 bucks for their time.  Well the first person I came across was a bald guy with a pony tail, (he may have been a confused skinhead)  I presented him with my card and asked if he would argue with me for 20 bucks.  He accepted under the condition, that I pay him the $20.00 up front. Well,..... I was not going to fall for that one again,  the last person I tried this with, ran off with my 20 bucks. So this time I decided to play it smart.  I would give him $20 dollars before we started and told him,  I would give him an other $20 dollars when we were all finished debating,  so he would end up making a total of $30 dollars. He agreed and I started my Shingles debunking by to get him off his guard.

I started by saying,  “You are a Zionist”.
“Zionist?”
“Yes, Zionist.”
He asked “what Zionist.”
I said again…., “No…You…. are a Zionist”
He asked, “if I am a Zionist….. wouldn’t that mean I am ....Jewish?”
“Jewish?”
“Yes….Jewish!”
My reply, “No!..... I have been told by a master debater of ill repute, that a Zionist does not have to be Jewish, in fact it is preferred they be Pennsylvanian or something, so Zionist’s are not Jewish”!
Then he asked, “I am not Jewish?”
“No!” I said “you are not Jewish, you are a Zionist”
He stepped back and stated, “I am not Jewish….. and I am not a Zionist”
“Look” I said, “I am paying you to be a Zionist and not to be Jewish”  Louder, I explained, “I have to call you a Zionist…. for the rest of my argument to work right….you have to be a Zionist.”

Well this went on for a long while and when it ended I turned out to be a Jewish Zionist with a head ache, plus short 30 dollars.  So much for the Shingles master debater technique!  Back to the drawing board for me, next time I probably should plan on using more insults!

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By Robert, March 30, 2010 at 6:07 pm Link to this comment

Samson and the 2nd Nakba -

A Short Study of the Jewish Hercules

By Gilad Atzmon

“March 28, 2010 “Information Clearing House”— As much as many of us enjoyed watching the humiliation of Israel and PM Netanyahu in Washington this week, I am reluctant to suggest that the emerging crisis between America and Israel may also be a red light warning for all of us. The current crisis may lead to some devastating consequences as far as Palestine, Iran and the Middle East are concerned.

“Netanyahu and Obama are at a point of no return” claims Haaretz writer Akiva Eldar. “As far as President Barack Obama and his senior advisers are concerned, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is to blame for nothing less than damaging the standing of the U.S. in the Middle East and the Muslim world.”

It may be possible that the Americans have started to gather that there is no partner for peace in Israel. America clearly has had to shun its ‘kosher ally’. The American military and political elite already admitted this week that Israel is a strategic burden on the U.S. Seemingly, the only people who genuinely believe in the American Israel strategic bond are AIPAC and its list of obedient ‘Sabbath Congressmen Goyim’. But unfortunately, this is just one side of the story.

A deeper reading of recent events would suggest that the latest American Israeli rift is actually led by Netanyahu’s political partners. Interestingly enough, as much as America reveals growing disapproval of Israeli policy, the anti American attitude, demonstrated by Netanyahu’s allies at home, is overwhelming. It doesn’t take a genius to grasp that some of Netanyahu’s cabinet members are doing everything in their power to fire up a storm between Israel and its ‘closest ally’.

Interior Minister Eli Yishai, the man behind decisions that sparked the recent diplomatic crisis, said this week ‘Israelis voted for this government’s path, according to which, there will be no compromises on (the) Jerusalem issue’. He also used the opportunity to thank his creator for giving him “the right to be the minister who approves the construction of thousands of housing units in Jerusalem”. Along with his latest disastrous visit to Washington, PM Netanyahu found time to consult with his Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman. According to Ynet, Lieberman advised his PM “not to capitulate in face of American pressure”.

I guess that most political analysts fail to understand the depth of the Israeli right wing expansionist and racist conviction. Unlike Sharon, Peres, Livni, Rabin, Olmert, Barak and even Netanyahu himself, who along the years,  paid a limited respect to the West and the US in particular, Netanyahu’s cabinet is dominated by right wing Zionist hawks. They follow David Ben Gurion’s old mantra: “it doesn’t matter what the Goyim (Gentiles) say, the only thing that matters is what the Jews do”. Netanyahu’s political partners are not willing to compromise or acquiesce to American conditions.


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25095.htm

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By Robert, March 30, 2010 at 6:05 pm Link to this comment

Samson and the 2nd Nakba -

A Short Study of the Jewish Hercules

By Gilad Atzmon

“March 28, 2010 “Information Clearing House”— As much as many of us enjoyed watching the humiliation of Israel and PM Netanyahu in Washington this week, I am reluctant to suggest that the emerging crisis between America and Israel may also be a red light warning for all of us. The current crisis may lead to some devastating consequences as far as Palestine, Iran and the Middle East are concerned.

“Netanyahu and Obama are at a point of no return” claims Haaretz writer Akiva Eldar. “As far as President Barack Obama and his senior advisers are concerned, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is to blame for nothing less than damaging the standing of the U.S. in the Middle East and the Muslim world.”

It may be possible that the Americans have started to gather that there is no partner for peace in Israel. America clearly has had to shun its ‘kosher ally’. The American military and political elite already admitted this week that Israel is a strategic burden on the U.S. Seemingly, the only people who genuinely believe in the American Israel strategic bond are AIPAC and its list of obedient ‘Sabbath Congressmen Goyim’. But unfortunately, this is just one side of the story.

A deeper reading of recent events would suggest that the latest American Israeli rift is actually led by Netanyahu’s political partners. Interestingly enough, as much as America reveals growing disapproval of Israeli policy, the anti American attitude, demonstrated by Netanyahu’s allies at home, is overwhelming. It doesn’t take a genius to grasp that some of Netanyahu’s cabinet members are doing everything in their power to fire up a storm between Israel and its ‘closest ally’.

Interior Minister Eli Yishai, the man behind decisions that sparked the recent diplomatic crisis, said this week ‘Israelis voted for this government’s path, according to which, there will be no compromises on (the) Jerusalem issue’. He also used the opportunity to thank his creator for giving him “the right to be the minister who approves the construction of thousands of housing units in Jerusalem”. Along with his latest disastrous visit to Washington, PM Netanyahu found time to consult with his Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman. According to Ynet, Lieberman advised his PM “not to capitulate in face of American pressure”.

I guess that most political analysts fail to understand the depth of the Israeli right wing expansionist and racist conviction. Unlike Sharon, Peres, Livni, Rabin, Olmert, Barak and even Netanyahu himself, who along the years,  paid a limited respect to the West and the US in particular, Netanyahu’s cabinet is dominated by right wing Zionist hawks. They follow David Ben Gurion’s old mantra: “it doesn’t matter what the Goyim (Gentiles) say, the only thing that matters is what the Jews do”. Netanyahu’s political partners are not willing to compromise or acquiesce to American conditions.

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By Shingo, March 30, 2010 at 5:06 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,
“See, Shingo, maaayyybeee there are facts, and I know quite well I could find them, especially the Goldstone report (an aside here: I already have, shhhh, don’t tell Shingo), but they are what you say are facts and it is in your province to provide the facts not me.”
It’s no more my province to provide facts for you than it is for me to wipe your behind when you go to the wash room Shen.  I will provide facts when you make a false assertions.
You have a habit of posting anyu drivel that comes to your heard without any regard to what you are saying.  For example, you suggested that Hedges included no verifiable information include in his article.  I then pointed out that he made over a dozen in the first 2 paragraph that were verifiable, which you then agreed were verifiable.
You’re lazy and not too bright, btu want so desperately to prove hwo intelligent you are.
“I don’t even have to say a word about your incapability.”
Perhaps best not to.  You lost the debate a week ago Shen, so my incapability is not at issue here.
“GRYM is very funny whether or not any of Shingo’s staff or Shingo himself enjoy his hilarious laments and admonishments to Jew Dogs.”
Being such an ignoramus, you’re probably oblivious to the irony of this statement.  It was Moshe Dayan after all, who famously said:
“You Palestinians, as a nation, don’t want us today, but we’ll change your attitude by forcing our presence on you.” You will “live like dogs, and whoever will leave, will leave,” while we take what we want.”

“He gives giggling even if antagonistic stuff but you all have no sense of humor so are unable to break into the level of humor he is presenting.”
You’re right Shen, we don’t see the humour in topics relating to genocide, ethnic cleansing. human rights violations, racism and apartheid, but you evidently do. Such is the sick and degenerate mind of the Zionist.

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By PatrickHenry, March 30, 2010 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller, just when I thought your humor couldn’t suck any more along comes GRYM and blows you out of the water.  I guess you’ll have to settle for runner up in the suck humor catagory.

I’m glad you gave up your zionism, though I doubt it, for some if not most, It’s in the blood, the need to be in an exclusive club with dominion over others.

If I had written anything like GRYM, I would have been crucified by ITW and rightfully so.

Somehow, suckass sarcasm loses its affect in written form for you guys.

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By Shenonymous, March 30, 2010 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller, this forum is up to 8 pages!  Yeowie kazowie!  Yippieee
yippieee dooo!  I shall waste my time and anybody else’s who wants to
spend it on this forum as much as I want to, Shingo.  If you don’t like
it, take a hike.

You obviously are a very slow learner.  I think you should shut up
yourself, or start providing some references for the crap you bestow
upon the denizens of the Truthdig forum.  You and your staff as
truthdippers have turned it into Truthdip.  Would you say you were
among the ordinary Americans?  I hardly think you are even an
American.  You and your staff spew such hatred towards everything
that is American that it is my view that you live to see this country
destroyed.  It is quite hypocritical, but then hypocrisy has never
stopped you and your staff before so I am not surprised at the
conclusion that some of you are on retirement income from an
American corporation, some of you are taking social security and
medicare and some of you like your antithesis counterparts on the
fanatical right take with one hand and have the nerve to attempt
destruction of this country.  While others of you take advantage of
being an American every which way you can.  The Pharisees are
running amuck in the electronic halls of Truthdig. 

So glad you don’t think I’m an “ordinary” American, Shingo.  I thought
that was clever of me to get you to say that!  It is maybe by a hair, not
teased mind you, that I am too lazy to research some stuff, but I’ve
certainly provided tomes and tomes, as Leefeller says, almost a
thousand comments on this very thread and I’ve made my share (and
yes, he is right, as usual, I’ve been responsible for other megabig
forums before).  Those other forums however had very interesting and
knowledgeable people on them, not like this one that has attracted the
flies.  Must be that pig stuff Leefeller and GRYM are talking about!  I
like pigs.  I raised three of them as a youngster.  And my kids and I
chased a piglet down the streets of Kutztown (Penna.).  It was a hoot,
or…well…really it was more a suieee suieeee! 

Shingo you are like the Rabid (infected with Rabies) Republicans who
won’t give Obama a nanosecond to breath before they shove more shit
at him.  5 Yups!  That is exactly what you and your staff are like.  And I
see elisalouisa has shown up again to lather up your ego again. 
Hahaha She is a very needy person.  She has found she likes to say
lard ass as much as ITW!  Poor Robert, he can never live that one down. 
You don’t really think I care a pig’s hair what you think I should do,
Shingo, do you?  You know by now that I go at my own pace.

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By Shenonymous, March 30, 2010 at 4:33 pm Link to this comment

See, Shingo, maaayyybeee there are facts, and I know quite well I could
find them, especially the Goldstone report (an aside here: I already
have, shhhh, don’t tell Shingo), but they are what you say are facts
and it is in your province to provide the facts not me.  I have expressed
doubts about your opinions and so seems right that you back your
opinions up or shut up.  It is your homework but then those with a
brain on this forum knows you are not capable of providing any
supported information.  I don’t even have to say a word about your
incapability. 

GRYM is very funny whether or not any of Shingo’s staff or Shingo
himself enjoy his hilarious laments and admonishments to Jew Dogs. 
He gives giggling even if antagonistic stuff but you all have no sense of
humor so are unable to break into the level of humor he is presenting.
(You really need to stop groveling in the lower regions of human
existence and learn the finesse of biting humor.  It is more Norwegian
than Jewish, by the way.  I think he is either posting for a few of us
who can appreciate him or he is not yet convinced you are as
humorless as you really are.  I know it does seem unbelievable. 
Well…maybe his is more than the kind of humor ordinary Americans
enjoy.  It is of a higher order than they are used to.  I never quite saw
how funny the Jewish problem really can be.  So Leefeller, you have
resigned as a quasi-Zionist?  Or was that as an ersatz-Zionist (I really
like that one and have used it before)?  Tch tch.  GRYM your sense of
humor and satire sucks for truedigger3 but doesn’t suck for me! But I
know I am not your target audience.  Now you are not quite the unique
and funny man that Leefeller is. But you know that and I don’t think
you are trying to transcend his throne, not at all. 

So trudigger3 has discredited Al Jazeera.  OMG There goes the only
supposedly truthful voice of the Arab world.  Guess the only alternative
are Self-Hating Jew Journalists (the SHJJs).  Sigh. 

So I was thinking…what are my true colors?  What trap have I
fallen into?  I really really like the following colors:  Teal, lime green,
and apricot.  Those are my true colors and I’m sticking to it!  Traps,
uh…hmmm traps?  Have to contemplate that one.  I don’t feel like I’m
in a trap, I don’t see any traps, hmmm vellly intahrrresting.  have to do
some research on that.  I’ll get back to you on it.  After I finish up my
other posting projects.  I have to stay focused!

Next post will be more Jewish history.  Let’s see…where did I leave off? 
Snore….

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By truedigger3, March 30, 2010 at 2:58 pm Link to this comment

For all those who are singing the praise of Al Jazeera, please not so fast!
There is a strong zionist influence in both its Arabic and English broadcasts, especially the English broadcast.
Al Jazeera knows it has an educated Arab audiene, and International audience, so their bullshitting is much more sophisticated, camouflaged and insidious.
Think of it as inticing dish of good and wholesome sweets that has several innocent looking and inviting poisonous pieces of candy.

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By truedigger3, March 30, 2010 at 2:40 pm Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man, in March 30 at 8:55 am wrote:


I just checked with the National Weather Service.
Fact: The jet stream is still flowing.  Mt. Everest is socked in with cloud cover. 

Oh the inhumanity!  When will those Jewish Dogs end
this madness?
___________________________________________________

GRM,

Are you taking over from Leefeller, as our resident comedian??!!
Your sense of humor and satire suck.

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By Leefeller, March 30, 2010 at 12:27 pm Link to this comment

Shingles stated;

“A Zionist no doubt. Is he a pig and is he evil?”

I disagree with some of Shingle’s stated assertions but not all of them about about GRYM. What bothers me to no end, is since I have received title of honoree Zionist and since I seldom agree on anything GRYM spews and if I am an honoree Zionist and GRYM is a no doubt Zionist, I must take exception.  His title seems higher then mine, So it is with little trepidation, I informally declare that I disown my honoree Zionist status, making it null and void, right here and now!

Something else Shingles, in suggesting GRYM is a pig and an evil pig at that, I find this seems to have some credibility problems among other things.  First of all, as a previous hog farmer, it should be known hogs or pigs as swine, as animals go are much smarter then Republicans, in fact I would say this is true of most animals. except possibly the rock. Stating pigs are evil, would make one suspect they are even capable of eating their young, again I refer anyone to Republicans?

Not sure were Shingles acquired his information about pigs, hogs or swine, may I recommend an animal husbandry class or two!

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By Robert, March 30, 2010 at 11:55 am Link to this comment

By Leefeller, March 30 at 12:07 pm #

Greeting GRYM with such enthusiasm seems a bit touchy, Robert, dost not sound at all happy.

~~~~~~~~

weefeller…hate to disappoint you, but I am enthusiastic and very happy that these pathetic zionist liars/hypocrites keep proving and showing their true colors on TD. They keep falling into their own trap…

I have no reasons to be unhappy at all. Its a way of life for them…and this GRYM may resurface and prove it again & again…!

Have a great day!

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By Leefeller, March 30, 2010 at 9:07 am Link to this comment

Greeting GRYM with such enthusiasm seems a bit touchy, Robert, dost not sound at all happy.

Announcement:

It has been stated Shester has single handily been known on occasion, to bring posts well over the 1000 posting number, this announcement has been brought to you in the name of major importance!

Will…. She do it? ..... 300 hundred to go!

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By Robert, March 30, 2010 at 8:30 am Link to this comment

Hey GRYM...are you the same liar who said, at least 2 times , that you were leaving this TD thread?

Telling the truth is NOT on your list of sidetracking/deceptions attempts!

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By Robert, March 30, 2010 at 8:11 am Link to this comment

For those who are interested in watching the debate between Norman Finkelstein vs. Alan Dershowitz on DemocracyNow click on link(s) below:


This debate was my first time that I have watched DemocracyNow.org. A friend of mine introduced me to the website/Link TV channel, and I have been watching Amy Goodman/DemocracyNow ever since . 


http://ia340937.us.archive.org/3/items/dn2003-0924_vid/dn2003-0924_512kb.mp4?dn2003-0924_vid/dn2003-0924_512kb.mp4

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/bruce-lee/

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By Leefeller, March 30, 2010 at 7:37 am Link to this comment

GRYM, It has been decreed Zionists are not Jews;.... or is it the other way around? NO!  Pretty… sure….it has been expressed by rewound experts in their own minds,  that Zionists are not Jews and preferred so for conveniences of professional debate or argument and debunking.

One thing amusing about this, if the alleged decree has some validity; (though validity may not matter) bigots who hate jews could potentially become professional deciders just like our last great president.

Can this be a looming problem for the professional juvenile delinquents of TD like, Patrick Henry, Robert, and company?  To be continued…..

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By omop, March 30, 2010 at 6:56 am Link to this comment

Whether the following extracts from a book written originally in French, about
“jewish liberalism”, which Mr. Hedge’ referenced in his article and which seems
to have encouraged a multitude of comments, accusations, insults and
repetitiveness will be met with equal emotionalism since it points out that not all
Jews are, or were liberals.

To wit:- Selective Amnesia and Fabulation

Many Jews, as we know, played an absolutely huge role in the Soviet tragedy
1917-1991 and the 30 MILLION deaths that marked this era. Let us remember
that Karl Marx was born into a Jewish family and that Lenin himself had a Jewish
maternal grandfather, that Leon Trotsky, the Bolshevik founder and head of the
Red Army, was born a Bronstein, while Kamenev (real name: Rosenfeld) and
Zinoviev (real name: Apfelbaum) were running the two Bolshevik-conquered
capitals of Moscow and St. Petersburg.

But the list of Jews who stood out in the mega-crimes of Communism is
endless. It must be said and it must be repeated: Jewish officials and Jewish
torturers bore a very heavy responsibility in this tragedy.

The “perfect” world they concocted and which was supposedly “historically
inevitable” turned out from the very beginning to be a nightmare for the Russian
population. It was not until 1948 when the Jewish intellectual elite Jewish began
distancing itself from the Stalinist government, and this was only because Stalin
had launched his “anti-Zionist” campaign, meant to purge pro-Israel Jews from
senior leadership positions.

This indisputable Jewish guilt for the gigantic crimes of Bolshevism is now
systematically being shoved down the MEMORY HOLE (the phrase from George
Orwell’s 1984).

In Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s 2002 book Two Centuries Together, the Nobel
Laureate and 11-year veteran of the Bolshevik gulag expresses outrage that
Jewish intellectuals were still refusing to recognize their ethnic responsibility in
the slaughter of millions of Christians.

Solzhenitsyn also denounces modern Jews who pose as victims of an
“antisemitic” Bolshevik government when that government was in fact heavily
Jewish and Jews were among the worst perpetrators.

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By Go Right Young Man, March 30, 2010 at 5:55 am Link to this comment

I just checked with the National Weather Service.

Fact: The jet stream is still flowing.  Mt. Everest is
socked in with cloud cover. 

Oh the inhumanity!  When will those Jewish Dogs end
this madness?

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By Go Right Young Man, March 30, 2010 at 5:42 am Link to this comment

Fact:  It’s March 30.
Fact: March 30 came and went last year at exactly THE
SAME TIME…..Grrrrr…those damned Zionists.  They
control the actions of the entire globe!  No. No it’s
actually more than that.  They control the universe!!

Basement Boy is right after-all.  If not for those evil
Jews the entire world would, quite magically, become a
much different and better place!

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By elisalouisa, March 30, 2010 at 5:36 am Link to this comment

Shingo, once again your post of 3/30 7:10 gets to the point; there is no drama, no generalizations as to truth, no twisting or spin. Just the facts simply stated. Thank you for following through and not allowing confusion to reign.
Also, knowing full well that I may regret this as ITW has a way of forever reliving comments made on TD (example:lard ass) to my surprise I completely agree with your comments. Dershowitz took on a celebrity status during the OJ trial and this is really what he and Anne Coulter live for. Why others cannot see through such “experts” is beyond me. Al Jazeera’s nightly news on LINK provides a balance as to what is happening in the Arab world and the news from their perspective. Would it be fair to say that this is not important to many Zionists? I have no statistics so I can’t say. However, it does say something that you find this of interest.

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By Shingo, March 30, 2010 at 5:27 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Stop wasting everyone’s time with your mindless waffling.  If you haven’t read the Goldstone report, then may I suggest you shut up about it or read it and then comment about whether it’s factual or not.

And stop using the excuse that our an ordinary American.  Yes, Americans in general are among the most ignorant in the developed world, and that is shameful, but as an ordinary American you have every opportunity to educate and inform yourself.  It is not an excuse to be ignorant or remain so.

The reason you are oblivious to facts is because you are too lazy to research them.  They are available and you can verify their credibility.  There’s no point waiting for someone else to do your homework for you.

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By Shenonymous, March 30, 2010 at 5:22 am Link to this comment

Truthdig has just sent a email that more or less vindicates my question
that was denigrated so much by the Contingent about a week ago.
https://www.theirc.org/campaign/women-vs-violence?
ms=cm_tdig_mar_zzzz_kg_10zzzz
Do go and watch the youtube video at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=SUweeCdOCQ4&feature=player_embedded

Was the topic appropriate?  I thought so.  But is open for discussion.

Now we do have to ask if Truthdig is presenting the truth, especially for
those men who would prefer to keep inflicting violence against women,
and those mindless women who can’t believe any violence is inflicted
on women who have slithered onto this forum now and then?

Mo’later.

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By Shingo, March 30, 2010 at 5:10 am Link to this comment

Fact:  Yet another day the GRYM makes a gutless contributino to this thread.

A Zionist no doubt. Is he a pig and is he evil?

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By Shenonymous, March 30, 2010 at 5:07 am Link to this comment

There is no pretense, Shingo, unless you are pretending to know facts. 
What verifiable information does Hedges include in his article?  That
Goldstone made a report, yes that is true.  It is a hard fact.  If what is
said in the report is fact, has to be proved or how to get the proof
needs to be provided.  I am not saying that Israel is not culpable. Nor
am I saying Hamas is culpable.  I am staying with the notion of fact.  I
don’t know if Goldstone is fact.  As an ordinary American how would I
be able to verify what is reported?  You think it is fact because you
want to think so.  I have a dim view of many of the United Nations
reports and I do not know much about the European Parliament and I
think most Americans don’t either.  Why ought they to be believed
anyway?  Yes Israel was responsible for 1434 people, which included
960 civilians.  The deaths are verifiable fact.  I do not know about
Israel putting pressure n human rights groups or cracking down on
dissent and liberal journalists.  Seems like that is not much different
than the authoritarian oppressive horror that has been shown on TV of
what is happening in Iran.  But that is straw man argument my part,
and was just a commentary to put cracking down on journalists or the
people’s dissent in perspective.  Human rights groups, wherever they
appear, are emotionally charged and facts are elusive, no pretense
involved.

The so-called facts as you call them is all under your nose,
Shingo.  You do not know how to present facts.  They are not simple
itemized declarations.  Hard evidence are facts.  Do you have any hard
evidence for anything you claim? 

Further discussion will have to be tabled until this evening.  I look
forward to your providing facts for your 7 items, minus #4.

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By Go Right Young Man, March 30, 2010 at 4:52 am Link to this comment

Fact:  Yet another day the sun failed to rise in the
West.  Damn those evil Zionist pigs!

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By Shingo, March 30, 2010 at 4:10 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Facts are obvious, because facts stand up to scrutiny and weather the test of time.  It’s very simple.  They are not as elusive as you like to pretend.

Organizations are frequently labelled as left or right wing but often those labels are inaccurate.  For example, the New York Times is attacked a being left wing or liberal, but a number of it’s reporters are very right wing or pro establishment.  It was the NYT after all via Judy Miller, that led the sales pitch for the Iraq war.
The Washington Post is regarded as right wing, but it too has some very respectable writers.

How reporters colour their work is one thing, but if they misrepresent information, it usually becomes evident.

1.  Hedges article includes verifiable information.
2.  The Israeli attack was exposed by the Goldstone report.  That is true.
3.  The United Nations and the European Parliament have endorsed the report.
4.  Israeli killed 1,434 people, including 960 civilians based on figures from HRW.
5.  Israel is cracking down on dissent and liberal journalists.
6.  Israel has been putting pressure on human rights groups like B’Tselem for quite some time.
7.  Israel is arresting peace activists.

I could go on.  These facts are verifiable by numerous sources, so Hedges article is entirely verifiable.  There’s no point pretending that the information is not thre when its under your nose.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 30, 2010 at 3:49 am Link to this comment

She,
I missed the humor about Fisk.  Too many times feeble minds accuse one poster of really being another in disguise.

Personally, I lost all respect for Dershowitz years ago.  Between his trying to horn in on the OJ trial and a book (forgot what) in the late 90’s that was such a piece of horseshit it could have been written by Ann Coulter, other than what the political positions were. It was such sophistry I had to put it down. 

Lawyers make lousy historians usually.  They forget that it’s OK for a lawyer (especially a defense lawyer ) to ignore and not introduce facts that tend to convict their client.  But a historian who does than engages in reductionism and debunks his own thesis.

I expect Al Jazeera to be biased.  But they are still one of the best and most open sources of insight into how the Arab world views the rest of the world, just as Faux Noise tells us how the nuts who claim the mantle of “Conservatism” think.

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By Shenonymous, March 30, 2010 at 3:33 am Link to this comment

ITW, I did say my musing about Fink and Robert was far fetched. I was
going for the emotional portraits more than actual personage.  I think
the humor was obvious, no?

Shingo, most appreciative of your last two posts. The lack of name-
calling was encouraging.  The question I have left and the question of
my earlier posts is how can ordinary Americans know who is telling the
truth?  The facts as you say would tend to provide evidence.  Without
references given for every accusation, all that is seen are emotional
outbursts.  References at least provide some conduit to “closer to the
truth” even if they cannot be checked out very well.  Reliance on others
to verify is what has to be the resort.  Just as we rely that when we go
to a restaurant, the food they prepare is of the cleanest quality and
handled in the cleanest way.  If someone gets sick from that
restaurant’s food then there is evidence it was a lie. 

But of the more than 308 million Americans 99.9% (yes that is just a
guesstimate) would not be able to determine the “facts” of what goes
on in the Middle East.  They hardly are able to know if what goes on in
their own country are the fact as presented.  Just to watch CNN is a
laugh riot, MSNBC is even more of a joke.  And to watch any
mainstream news is unbelievably a comedy.  Reading the NYT or the
LAT or the Washington Post all need to be read with a grain of salt.  But
they are believed because people want to believe in something without
going out and getting the truth.  Honesty is earned by being honest. 
There is no way for people to know the realities unless they
investigated themselves, then that would mean just one or so might
then have a clue.  But that is not feasible.  Americans rely on their
superficial judgment as to what is the truth.  They synthesize what is
the truth from all the bits and pieces of news that is not “really” true
and come to conclusions.  Hardly a person would start looking as I do
on the Internet.  Then one can get overgorged on what is findable. 
And I admit I have not an inkling whether you tell the truth or ITW or
radson or GRYM or Robert or Amon Drool or, or, or… ad infinitum. 
You all present a particular and slanted point of view.  Almost
inescapably our own biases come into play and as a result very little
changes in the way of views.

Michael Oren writes not too keen a review of Tom Segev in the
Washington Post, 2007.  Oren charges that, “Substantiating these
claims requires Segev to engage in rhetorical acrobatics.”  He goes on
to say why Segev exaggerates profusesly in his book, and he gives a
sufficient number of citations out of Segev’s book as a demonstration. 
By all appearances, it looks as if Oren has a case.  How would we
know?  Do I believe Oren because of my own prejudices?  Or do I
dismiss him for the same reason?  If Segev is a Jew, one has to wonder
why he works so hard at his depreciation of Israel?

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By Shenonymous, March 30, 2010 at 3:31 am Link to this comment

It takes a tremendous amount of ‘facts’ accumulation for belief to have
sound basis.  How would we know Dershowitz is as you have
described?  How would we know Finkelstein is the way you described? 
Why should you be believed if the printed news is specious?  You
present yourself as a biased blogger.  You say the facts and the truth
are obvious but they are not obvious. 

Whether a news organization is basically left or right is important.  A
chronic complaint is that their dispositions color their reporting.  Do
you argue against that? 

It is theoretically agreed that if the facts are presented that truth is
close by.  Ah but what are the facts?  You have descried the Palestinian
Post but you yourself are partisan and it shows in your very description
of the Palestinian Post.  The language you use, the emotional reaction
come through. 

I’ve read about Al Jazeera, the noted 24-hour Arab TV channel and
news broadcasting.  S. Abdallah Schleifer says it very clearly, and of
course there is no way for ordinary Americans to verify what he
describes as Al-Jazeera’s motto, “Opinion and Another Opinion…get
both sides of the story” is how they conduct their reporting.  Just as
Americans have very little way to verify the news they get from their TV
stations.  How is it possible for Al Jazeera to remain objective with
Osama bin Laden as one of its links to Al Qaeda?  The ‘fact’ that Al-
Jazeera steps on toes occasionally does not mean it is not partisan. 
And the ‘fact’ that Al-Jazeera is the biggest media phenomenon that
ever hit the Middle East does is not so astounding in the face of the
‘fact’ that until Al-Jazeera, all news was rinsed by the authoritarian
states and there was not a news instrument like Al-Jazeera in
existence.  The people are starving for news.  The TBS article, 2001 is
informative, that is without a doubt,
http://www.tbsjournal.com/Archives/Fall01/Jazeera_sas.html but how
would and ordinary American be able to tell whether its senior editor
was himself completely forthright?  Truth is such a filmy thing in this
world of deep-seated hatreds.  It is actions that shows what truth
means and actions do not say why they happen just that they do
happen.

Schleifer ominiously says, “In authoritarian countries with high rates
of illiteracy, television (and radio) is a particularly dangerous medium.
Unlike Arab newspapers, which were privately owned in politically
moderate Arab states or had a history of private ownership prior to
nationalization in the Arab socialist republics, TV channels were state-
established from the beginning. They had no sense of mission beyond
serving the state in the field of “information” as well as providing
popular entertainment.”
  Why should anyone in the West think Al-
Jazeera is any different?  The entire article was most interesting but as
to facts?  I’ve no idea. Yet I and everyAmerican who is part of the hoi
polloi would for all tense and purposes never be able to find out the
facts.  Nor do they want to with their focus on having their own life. 
And as to finding out the truth? 

Hedges article is an example of an unverifiable and obviously
prejudiced view.

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By Shingo, March 29, 2010 at 8:58 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

“How to determine which one tells the truth which one tells the lies?”

Easy to prove.  One need only look at the evidence.
Dershowitz’s book, the Chutzpah, is clearly plagiarized from Time Immemorial by Joan Peters.  He has plagiarized it word for word and Finkelstein exposed him as a fraud.  Dershowitz has undertaken a vendetta to demonize Frankenstein rather then debate him.

Dershowitz spread the rumour that Frankenstein was a Holocaust denier, even though Finkelstein has not only never denied the Holocaust, but is the son of Holocaust survivors and the victims of the Warsaw Ghetto.

In fact, no Israeli propagandist is prepared to debate Frankenstein because he destroys them with his meticulous grasp of the facts.  Sometimes I think he bores his opponents to sleep, because his delivery is monotonous, but it’s irrefutable.

Dershowitz has become a vile and vindictive apologist for Israel and has undertaken numerous vendettas against academics who dare to criticize Israel.  He has undermined the efforts of both Finkelstein and Juan Cole to acquire tenure as their respective universities, even though they both received praise and recommendations from their peers.

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By Shingo, March 29, 2010 at 8:37 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

“Ha’aretz is well known to be Israel’s leftwing newpaper.  Hardly objective news, about as objective as the Jerusalem Post.”

As I already explained, whether a paper is right or left leaning is not the issue, it’s whether they report the facts or simply provide biased commentary.

“http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1159849.html
The plague of darkness has struck modern Israelites
By Akiva Eldar”

This article was brought to my attention the other day.  A fascinating article by Israel’s leading foreign policy journalists.  It will be very interesting to see if the 24 month plan to recognize a Palestinian state by the quartet comes to pass. 

One can only hope.

“http://www.usnews.com/articles/opinion/2008/12/19/palestinians-
training-kids-to-be-suicide-bombers.html
Teaching children murder and a warped, dangerous history
By Harold Evans”

A predictable, simplistic and hypocritical piece of garbage.  For example:
“Children being taught murder by rote is child abuse, a mental deformation more damaging than physical injury.”
Perhaps Evans might want to explain how teaching children to write messages on 500lb bombs that are about to be dropped on children in Southern Lebanon is supposed to produce mental health among Israeli children.

“Your response to radson, March 28 at 10:49pm was the most cogent you have posted on this forum.  It was impressive and demonstrates that you do have some skill in thinking.”

That’s how I always respond when presented with an intelligent argument.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 29, 2010 at 8:23 pm Link to this comment

Robert Fisk is “Robert”? No frakkin’ way!
Fisk, whether I agree with him of not, is a bright, talented guy.
“Robert” OTOH is nothing but a Xeroxer whose only original thoughts are to call me a “Zionist” and Shenonymous a “Lard Ass”.

Can’t be the same guy.

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By Shenonymous, March 29, 2010 at 7:33 pm Link to this comment

I know you wish, Shingo, that I would demise, as I am that thorn in
your side to keep you honest.  Very few others have taken on that
monumental task.  Leefeller is one, radson is another.  It is only you
and your staff who denigrates me and tries to “off” me.  It is a basic
violent nature that acts that way.  Several of those for whom I have
respect have often said appreciative things about Shenonymous
Shepotamus.  You don’t really believe I care what you think about
me, about my intelligence, or my academic credentials, do you? 
Everyone with half a mind knows about the Gaza Blockade (in your own
words, why rehash what everybody knows) and everyone knows about
Egypt’s part in it halting use of the tunnels for the criminal trade that
has gone on there by Hamas.  BTW:  Here is a bon mot:  Israel allows
clothes, shoes into blockaded Gaza for first time
-  Reuters, March
30, 2010 (Haaretz.com)  Check it out. 

5 Yups, I am too lazy to hand type all the articles I’m referencing and if
I cut/paste (a lesson learned from you and your staff), then you
misquote the authors of the articles not me even though you
ridiculously criticize me.  When you can’t bash the one you would like
to bash you bash the closest thing to youi.  You claim Khadduri’s
Celebration of the 40-year anniversary of the 6-Day War is riddled with
omissions and “holes.”  Holes?  What omissions, what holes?  You
won’t answer those questions because you cannot.  You and your staff
remind me of the Republicans that showed themselves during this last
year for the hate and racist group that they are.

Don’t worry Shingo, I have not abandoned any of my “arguments.”  I
introduce “new” stuff that is relevant by association as background
against your pathetic accusations.  You are such a dreamer if you think
that you destroyed the 6-day War Victory of Israel argument.  Not in
the least.  I don’t need the OT or the NT or the Qu’ran.  Since all of
these scriptures find their origin in the Talmud and Hebrew texts, then,
from your own logic, they must all be works of fiction.  Maybe you
need some comparative religion classes too?  I’ll make more postings
about the 6-Day War, and the history of the Jews, and so forth later. 

For both Robert and Shingo:  Two academic Jews according to Tom
Segev:  Review of Sharon recommend a book
, Haaretz.com
21/10/2005.  (The Ha’aretz reference is questionable.  Try checking it
out.)

I’m Cutting and Pasting!
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=68
Segev writes, ”Alan Dershowitz is a leading, famous lawyer who
teaches at Harvard University. He is known as “a friend of Israel.”
Norman Finkelstein is a professor of political science at DePaul
University in Chicago. He is known as “an enemy of Israel.”  Currently,
both have new books out in the United States in which they vilify each
other in the basest and most personal way.  Finkelstein’s book
paints Dershowitz as a Zionist scoundrel who “lifted” most of his
arguments from another Zionist scoundrel. Dershowitz’s book
paints Finkelstein as a mentally unbalanced anti-Semite,
Holocaust denier and promoter of terror…” There’s a whole lot more,
that you can check out if you wish. 

How to determine which one tells the truth which one tells the lies? 
What is the measure?  I defy you to provide it.

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By Shenonymous, March 29, 2010 at 7:27 pm Link to this comment

I’m Cutting and Pasting again!  Just another FYI
Treaty of Peace Between the Hashemit Kingdom of Jordan and the
State of Israel
, October 265, 1994.
http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/peacetreaty.html
 
The Jordan-Israel Peace Treaty was signed on October 26, 1994, at
the southern border crossing of Wadi ‘Araba. The treaty guaranteed
Jordan the restoration of its occupied land (approximately 380 square
kilometers), as well as an equitable share of water from the Yarmouk
and Jordan rivers. Moreover, the treaty defined Jordan’s western
borders clearly and conclusively for the first time, putting an end to the
dangerous and false Zionist claim that “Jordan is Palestine.”

Seeking to lay a firm foundation for a just, comprehensive and lasting
peace, the treaty also outlined a number of areas in which negotiations
would continue. To this end, Jordanian and Israeli negotiators have
signed a series of protocols establishing a mutually beneficial
framework of relations in fields such as trade, transportation, tourism,
communications, energy, culture, science, navigation, the environment,
health and agriculture, as well as cooperatory agreements for the
Jordan Valley and the Aqaba-Eilat region.

Shingo you do not miss a beat in berating me.  Those music lessons
you had has trained you well.  But you do not speak about the inability
for anyone to know the truth.  You don’t seem able to either find the
truth or to speak it.  How can anyone check you out?  They can’t.  You
do know that if anything is the truth, it is verifiable, don’t you? 
Knowing how to argue well escapes you completely.  You merely make
pronouncements.  Make unsupported connections then think you have
said something meaningful.  It is a common conceit.

Two articles that demonstrate my observations about the truth.  I’ve
used your favorite news medium, Ha’aretz.  Ha’aretz is well known to
be Israel’s leftwing newpaper.  Hardly objective news, about as
objective as the Jerusalem Post.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1159849.html
The plague of darkness has struck modern Israelites
By Akiva Eldar

http://www.usnews.com/articles/opinion/2008/12/19/palestinians-
training-kids-to-be-suicide-bombers.html
Teaching children murder and a warped, dangerous history
By Harold Evans

Now which group has the moral high ground?  Neither!  Both are
immoral in this case.  Don’t you agree?

Finally and all of the above notwithstanding…
Your response to radson, March 28 at 10:49pm was the most cogent
you have posted on this forum.  It was impressive and demonstrates
that you do have some skill in thinking.  However, you still fail to
provide references without which places what you say on the level of
opinion.  It sounds like you know some history, but “how” you know it
is not provided.  There is no reason that anyone should simply believe
what you say about such important matters.  Of course anyone has the
right to believe unsupported opinion if what is said dovetails into what
they already believe.  It’s that thing again about seeing and loving in
another one’s own reflection.

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By radson, March 29, 2010 at 10:16 am Link to this comment

Shingo
I appreciate the constructive dialogue that you have displayed with regards to the I/P and Iran post.It’s encouraging to be able to share opinions in a comprehensive manner.

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By Shingo, March 29, 2010 at 5:11 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Your mental demise is all to apparent Shen.  You’re now repeating your old posts, though I took you as too you to suffer from senility.

You really should spend less time trying to psychoanalyse others, because you suck at it, and more time addressing your knowledge of the topic at hand (which also sucks). 
Truth is all that concerns me Shen.  Need I remind you that you were the one who tried so desperately to dismiss the truth and facts in favour of the abstract?

“So you would use reference material I never heard of?”
That’s almost unavoidable Shen.  You never heard of Winograd or it appears, the blockade of Gaza or the Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon.

“I only cut and paste because you would claim I changed the original, thinking your charade for truth works that way.”

No Shen, you cut and paste because you are too lazy and ignorant read and research the topic at hand.  You admitted that you were ignorant.

“So you discredit an acclaimed Arab scholar because he dares to honor the Israelis.”

The man is supposed to be a scholar and a political scientist.  Anyone with a modicum of understanding of the 6 say war would not celebrate it unless they were ideologically driven.  Historians and political scientists are supposed to produce an account of what happened, not cheer from the sidelines like some sycophant.  By your own admission, the man is not credible.

I did read the 5 page article and it’s pathetic and riddles with omissions and holes. Yes it was garbage and it was sickening.

“ With their thousands of years of persecution, who could blame them?”

Sorry to break it to you Mrs John Hagee, but Israel is 60 years old.

“ Haven’t seen one Israeli write on this forum.”

There have been dozens, but like GRYM, they run and hide once their lies are exposed. 

“ Cannot say that about the shill Islamists.”

Who might they be?  Anyone with a Muslim sounding name?
Shen, you wouldn’t know the truth if it turned up to one of your PTA meetings wearing a Sarah Palin T shirt.

“Your reference to hanging exposes you as having a violent nature.”

No, I have no history of violence in any circumstance.

“She works for a living, how’s about you?  Maybe late, so don’t hold up your dinner”

Yes, I happen to support a family, but don’t flatter yourself Shen. Your posts are becoming increasingly desperate and sad and reflexive. You don’t even care about this topic anymore, You are just so desperate to convince anyone who will listen that you are not an anti intellectual and have some idea of what you are talking about.

“I begin the history of Jewish persecution.”

Once again, every time your arguments are destroyed, you chnge tact.  You are just so desperate to win aren’t you Shen?  What an insecure little child you must be.

First it was the Gaza war and I destroyed that argument.
So you then moved on to the history of Israel and who was there fist, and I destroyed that argument.
So you moved on to the Israli/Lebanon conflict and again I destroyed destroyed that argument.
So then you moved on to the 6 day war and I detroyed that argument.

So now you want to move on to the subject of the persecution of Jews throughout history.  Interestingly, you will find that Islam played a very small part if any in that saga.

Suit yourself, though I doubt you’ll be able to manage without the Old Testament.  That would be true to form – relying on a work of fiction.

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By Shenonymous, March 29, 2010 at 4:45 am Link to this comment

There is no wondering why your reality is different than mine, Shingo. 

An alphabetical exposure of Shingo’s Self.
Your four options for the case for Israel (whatever that could possibly
mean, as it is clear as mud) are your four options.  That is how you
rationalize your hatred, Shingo.  And since you are the center of your
universe, everything spirals around you.  It is also self-evident that
political leaders have different degrees of responsibility and liability for
their public.  Just to say that is not of any consequence.  It is your habit
to make cavalier statements with self-opinionated examples.  It is your
habit of thinking which on the surface sounds good because people
gloss over most everything and go straight to their own unsupported
opinions.  Most people love their own reflections.  It is from too much
self-absorption, self-admiration, oh yeah, and self-aggrandizement. 
This is your group. Then there are those who ply themselves to an
ideology so that no criticism is possible. Your self-centeredness causes
a level of stubbornness and defensiveness that is diagnosable and
leads right into the morass of self-deception.  You combative nature
depreciates anyone and everyone who offers a possibility that is
counter to your opinion.  You do not demonstrate any ability to
participate in a rational discussion.  And that is your self-denial.  You
have no self-discipline.  You self-dramatize your knowledge, which is
narrow at best.  In your demagoguery, you self-glorify and fall into a
custom of denigration because you have no other argumentative skills. 
Your range of knowledge is limited, including self-knowledge.  Self-
improvement is the prescription.  But your self-indulgence is an
impediment.  You provide a striking self-portrait as you attack anyone
who does not agree with you.  It is typical of your obvious ideology that
sees the entire world as your property.  And your self-righteousness is
a handicap of seeing the truth. 

Yes, humiliation is your forte, isn’t it Shingo, because no one ever
taught you respect of the truth.  It’s all right I’ve toughed it out and call
you on your depravity.  How really stupid you are.  So you would use
reference material I never heard of?  Now who is being lame, Shingo? I
only cut and paste because you would claim I changed the original,
thinking your charade for truth works that way.  Exposing me as an
anti-intellectual is not anything you are capable of doing.  I admit I
have not been a scholar of the Middle East but thanks to you I am
becoming one.  Even if I have to limp through it, I will.  How stupid you
are.  Khadduri’s article, if you found it, was Celebrating the 40-year
anniversary of the 6-Day War!  and that is why the article was framed
the way it was.  So you discredit an acclaimed Arab scholar because he
dares to honor the Israelis.  You would say anything to save your
buttocks.  Your putative expose of me leads only to more posts by me.
I will post the entire 5-page Celebration!  Such is the effect of your
efforts.  Because the garbage that comes from you is sickening.

Shingo says - Is the portrait by Israel of Islamists not one sided? 
Probably is, but not on this forum.  With their thousands of years of
persecution, who could blame them?  Haven’t seen one Israeli write on
this forum.  A few Jews. 5 Yups! But no Israeli.  Cannot say that about
the shill Islamists.  You know what I say is true!  Thus spake the hack
Shepotamous.  Your reference to hanging exposes you as having a
violent nature.  So at bottom you are a militant Islamist, a verbal
terrorist.  So with a swish of Her hackish cape, She will be back this
evening.  She works for a living, how’s about you?  Maybe late, so don’t
hold up your dinner.  I begin the history of Jewish persecution.  That
will take a good long time for you to refute. You know, because of the
imbalance.  Because the garbage is sickening.

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By Shingo, March 29, 2010 at 12:10 am Link to this comment

Shnen,

You say that:

“My entire thesis here has been to say
that the portrait given by the Islamists of Israel is completely one sided’and their vehement prejudices are blatant, and unproven. “

This must go down as one of your most assunine thesis in exisence.  The portrait by Islamists of Israel will always be one sided by definition.

Is the portrait by Israel of Islamists not one sided?

Yes, that’s quite a thesis you have.

“No reliable corroboration is ever given over the most grievous accusations!”

Is HRW, Amnesty International and the US noe reliable? What case do you have to dismiss the Goldstone Report as unreliable?

You’re a hack and a faud Shen.  All that is required to undermine your argument is to provide you with the rope to hang yourself and you can be counted on to do the rest.

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By Shingo, March 29, 2010 at 12:03 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

You’re clearly getting very emotional and irrational again, which happens when I humiliate you and run rings around your juvenile arguments.  It’s becoming quite a pattern.

My references are books you have never read or heard of.  My main reference has been Tom Segev book, 1967.  Segev is a well known Israeli historian.

It’s funny how you managed to contradict yourself.  In one post you questioned why no Muslims had written about the 1967 war and the next you find one.  This highlights how little you know of the subjects and reveals that you are simply making this up as you go along.

Your source, Khadduri, gives a very selecive account, but leaves a large number of holes in the events that lead up the war.  Historians in general present evidence, and don’t make value judgements, such as referring to the regime in ‘Damascus as “radical”.  Ironically, he gives no sources for any of his assertions either.

In fact, the leadership in Damascus at the time was anything but radical.  I found the lit tle blog from which you cut and pasted your excerpt.  You are shamelessly lazy Shen and by no means a scholar of any description.

As I’ve explained to you, and endeavoured to educate you, no one can produce any credible analysis of the 6 day war without including the events that lead up to it.

  Khadduri might have Arab heritage, but it’s remarkable that he chose his timeline to commence in May, when a battle had already taken place between Israel and Syrian a month earlier.

I know how you hate to be exposed as an anti intellectual, but you are doing yourself no favors by trying to sounds authoritive on a subject you have no knowledge of.

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By Shenonymous, March 28, 2010 at 11:11 pm Link to this comment

shingo shingo shingo shingo, you are soooo funny.  Good.  Do keep
“correcting” according to Shingolese.  But you do not provide any
references so you are not to be believed.  Since the quote I gave about
Egypt was from an Arab, you are saying the scholar Arab is ignorant
too.  I copy/pasted the quote as printed since you would have twisted
what I said.  But you did anyway. hahahaha What a joker you are.  A
shapeshifter extraordinaire.  And yes, the garbage is sickening.

Thank you radson.  Your civility is admirable.  I’ve said that before, but
I want to emphasize it.  I don’t mind where facts come from, if indeed
they are facts.  I don’t mind reading Fisk via Robert.  To read Robert
Fisk directly however one must also keep in mind his bias.  I am moved
to ask would Robert of TD be Robert Fisk?  That would be an
interesting fact.  It is just wild conjecture on my part but a seems
strange coincidence.  Of course Robert is a common name.  A great
deal of what Robert of TD posts are copy/paste directly out of
Finkelstein.  We have nearly received his book in its entirety on TD
here.  Seems like Finkelstein is nearly a clone of the Anti-Zionista Fisk,
or vise versa.  I read some of Fisk’s writings.  And we all have had
access to Finkelstein, by Robert’s talented keyboard.  Why would it be
shocking to think that Robert is Robert Fisk?  Yeah, I guess that is very
far fetched.  Why would Fisk be posting on a blog like Truthdip?

I read the interview on Democracy Now where Lt. Col. Steve Boylan and
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad were interviewed by a panel (unnamed). That was
2006.  Questions about the truth of the newspapers was part of the
discussion.  And of course there was an argument that news stories are
true and news stories are false.  All parties danced around answering
without any substantiation.  No real answer was forthcoming.  They
were all paralyzed at the mouth about the ability to gain the truth. 
How is the public, the public here for instance, since it is here and now
we are discussing this business that is still the question of the day,
how are we to determine who is telling the truth and who is not?  And
the poor ignorant saps of the rest of the public?  For it is we, the
public, ignorant as we are, who must decide what to believe about the
world whether the fanatics like it or not.  Regardless of the lies
perpetrated.  For instance, it seems the story about Zarqawi is
completely unbelievable.  Perhaps that is the intent, it certainly looks
suspiciously so.  My being called ignorant is ludicrous.  It is utter
stupidity on Shingo’s part and anyone else’s in his staff.  And the
pontifications are a carnival.  A freakshow of fanaticism.  What could
possibly verify what Shingo says, he never gives references, except once
where he said he gets his information from Haaretz.  Which I took as a
joke!  So we are to believe that Haaretz is an instrument of truth?  Why? 
Are the published sources I provide any less believable than the fictions
Shingo provides out of his own head?  And yes, the garbage is
sickening.

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By Shenonymous, March 28, 2010 at 11:07 pm Link to this comment

Very remindful of TD’s Robert’s emotionalism, Fisk shows much
emotion in his 2006 interview and equivocates when Goodman
questions him how he would write one of the stories where he
bountifully blames the military of spinning the facts.  I would suspect
that they do, Oliver North primed us about that decades ago, but
where is the proof?  The facts about Zarqawi being alive ,or dead,
either way, was also a fabrication.  Do read the CBS 60 Minutes article
about Zarqawi. 
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/24/60minutes/main645596
.shtml
Is it to be believed?  Where on earth can one find the truth?  It does not
seem possible.  Yet in their falsity these fanatics are willing to call
others the most despicable names, especially me because I throw their
verbal feces right back in their faces in equal measure, on purpose to
show them they do not have the power they think they have, which
galls them to no end.  And I have come up with some pretty good
replies!  Because I have no intelligence!  How absolutely stupid.  Stupid
is absolutely the correct word for all of them as they dance around
together in their barrel of loathsome bunk.  For they are blinded by
their own bile of hatred.  And yes, the garbage is sickening.

I have not said the Israelis are not spinning stories and that they ought
to be believed any more than the Islamists.  They use lies to subterfuge
everyone.  And I have high doubts that the Americans tell the truth.  It
is the deadly game of politics.  My entire thesis here has been to say
that the portrait given by the Islamists of Israel is completely one sided
and their vehement prejudices are blatant, and unproven.  No reliable
corroboration is ever given over the most grievous accusations!  I am
called ignorant?  I am called every name in the book?  It is entire bull
shit and why should Fisk be believed?  Many say he is just as full of
himself as the next journalist such as Hedges, who after reading about
the both of them, Hedges doesn’t hold a candle.  It is only fools who
take any side when there is no way to establish the truth, but some
balance needs to be given voice.  Much of my participation has been
and is to goad the truth.  But it never comes forth. And that is my fault
for thinking it is at all possible. It isn’t.  That is my self-delusion.  Too
many people are killed over lies and deceptive lies. Perhaps that is the
way the earth rids itself of us vermin.  That anyone here claims to tell
the truth is outrageous.  It is a mental aberration to think that anything
anyone says is the truth when it is clear as daylight they do not have
one iota of access to the truth.  Or what they say has any meaning
beyond the boundaries of this forum.  It is truly wretched.  And yes, the
garbage is sickening.

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By Arabian Sinbad, March 28, 2010 at 8:42 pm Link to this comment

After following all the sickening garbage and incoherent propaganda of the Zionist hacks or the Zionist Contingent, whom I identified by name previously, I came to the conclusion that those people are religious fanatics of the worst type despite their false claims of being secular or liberals.

Only fanatic Jewish Zionists or Christian Zionists can go that far in supporting the wrongs, criminality, and terrorism of Israel, which has been documented again and over again by all human rights organizations over the years.

That’s why there is no way to reason with those fanatics; they are deaf,dumb and blind; so they are devoid of understanding the lofty concepts of truth and justice!

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By radson, March 28, 2010 at 7:15 pm Link to this comment

Shenenymous

Actually there was an article written by Fisk “getting a read on the Middle East ” right here on TD that promotes further reading on the Arab Israeli question .I don’t know how you regard Robert ,but there is no denying his life experiences in the Middle East, and at times I wonder how he has been able to survive in such an environment.

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By Shingo, March 28, 2010 at 7:14 pm Link to this comment

Shen, Shen, Shen the comedy does indeed continue, albeit at your expense.

If you were more intelligent than ,e, you might have a degree to show for it, and have a stronger grasp of the facts, rather than reside in your “abstract” world.

“  If I have no intelligence why would you waste your time explaining anything?”

I explained this a long time ago, but I am not doing this for your benefit Shen, but for anyone else who might be following this thread.  As I destroy your worn out talking points, I hope to empower others to use the facts I am presenting to confront other Zionist hacks like yourself in the future.  I did tell you this was never about you.
“I do not claim to be a scholar of the Middle East nor since I am not a
Jew and do not have any emotional attachment to Israel”
You are right, you are no scholar.  O might not be Jewish but you may or may not have an emotional attachment to Israel.  It could be your simply driven by an obsessive hatred towards Muslims.  I haven’t decided which, but you certainly are regurgitating the Hasbara book of talking points.
If, as you admit, you are not a walking compendium of the entire history and rationale for all the events that have happened in the Middle East, then you had best refrain from giving lectures about the history of the region.
“I will continue to post the histories exactly as I have been doing.”
You are welcome, and I will continue to correct and debunk what you post, because rest assured, what you are posting is not history, but lies, half truths or selective accounts.  No event in history is isolated, and without considering the events that lead up to those later events, you cannot hope to understand it.
You are a Zionist through and through Shen, and \the worst kind, because you are dishonest about it.  You walk like one, talk like one and think like one and most of all, you regurgitate Zionist talking points verbatim.

I look forward to correcting your future effort to cut and paste misinformation.

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By Shingo, March 28, 2010 at 7:04 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous

“By the way, did Egypt and Syria give Israel any due notice of their intention to attack in 1973?  I don’t think so.”

Of course, you don’t think so, your ignorant.  The 1973 war was over the Sinai and Egypt had made repeated overtured to negotiate the return of the Sinai, which Israel rejected.  You won’t find the data where you’re looking because Zionist web sites ignore it.  In 1971, backed by Henry Kissinger, Israel reject the offer of a full peace treaty by President Sadat of Egypt, offering nothing to the Palestinians - an agreement that the US and Israel were compelled to accept at Camp David eight years later, after a major war that was a near disaster for Israel.

“Closing the Straits of Tiran was illegal and threatening.”

How do you know it was illegal?  Nasser proposed that the legality be decided by the World Court, and Israel rejected it.  In fact it was not threatening either. The blockade actually lasted no more than a week.

The first couple of days the Egyptians searched ships. By the end of the week they stopped searching the ships. The ships were going right through.  The main figure in charge of the UN forces there Indar Jit Rikhye, wrote a book called The Sinai Blunder.  He confirms there was no blockade after a week.

“ Given that Egypt was provoking israel, it seemed it was a little inattentive of Nasser not to have got his armed services ready for a possible israeli airstrike.  It is interesting after all that, that Egypt did recognize Israel as a sovereign nation!”

No you’re not only rambling, you’re also contradicting yourself.

“News: “The great irony of the Six-Day War of 1967 was that it began with a hoax – a piece of faulty Soviet intelligence given to the Egyptians.”

The 1967 war began in 1956 and officialy started when Israel attacked Egypt.  Khadduri’s account ignores what was taking place in Washington with the Johnson administration, so let me help you, since you are struggling to follow a line of thought.

Johnson consulted all of America’s intelligence agencies ( there were at least a half dozen). Every one of them confirmed that:
1.  There was no chance of Nasser attacking.
2.  That if Nasser did attack, to quote Lyndon Johnson, as he said to the Israeli Eban, “you’re gonna whip their ass.”  In fact the CIA predicted the war would be 7 days long, 7 to 10 days.
Most importantly, on because June 3 ( 2 days before the war), the head of Israeli intelligence, Meir Amit, came Washington and met with the Americans.  Amit’s statement to them was that Israel did not dispute any of the findings, or any of the projections of the US intelligence community.

In other words and as Moshe Dayan and Yitzhak Rabin told us,  there was no chance Nasser would attack and, if by some weird twist of fate he did,  Israel would in easily.
Sorry to be the bearer of reality to you Shen,  but Googling frantically like you are will not give you and instant education on this matter.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, March 28, 2010 at 6:39 pm Link to this comment

Peace, Propaganda & the Promised Land

U.S. Media & the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

How Israel manipulates and distorts American
public perceptions


“Through the voices of scholars, media critics,
peace activists, religious figures, and Middle East
experts, Peace, Propaganda & the Promised Land
carefully analyzes and explains how—through the use
of language, framing and context—the Israeli
occupation of the West Bank and Gaza remains hidden
in the news media
, and Israeli colonization of
the occupied terrorities appears to be a defensive
move rather than an offensive one.”

~~~~~

Click on link to watch this great video on this conflict:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14055.htm

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By Shenonymous, March 28, 2010 at 6:38 pm Link to this comment

Shingo Shingo Shingo,  the comedy continues.  Again I thank you for
expecting me to be a deity, an omniscient, omnipotent, and
omnipresent goddess when I am a mere human, albeit more intelligent
than you, but still a mere human.  Intelligence is a matter of mental
capacity.  And since you have shown to have a small mind, well….do
the math.

You have wasted a lot of feet of TD space.  Hahaha.  To respond to
someone who you accuse of having no brain.  Are you mad?  It is
a laugh riot.  If I have no intelligence why would you waste your time
explaining anything?  You are the number one AH on this forum.  I see
my “unintelligence” has forced you to start explaining, at least from
your perspective, the events that have constructed the IP conflict.  Gee,
I don’t know how I even wrote those last sentences, not having any
intelligence.  What a dope you are.  Mannn, I don’t know how you can
even stand yourself! 

I do not claim to be a scholar of the Middle East nor since I am not a
Jew and do not have any emotional attachment to Israel, I am therefore
not a walking compendium of the entire history and rationale for all the
events that have happened in the Middle East.  I have admitted I do
research and that is all I will say about the matter. If you don’t like it,
too bad.

As an American, who must rely on news media or the ability to
research via the Internet, I do not rely on Wikipedia as I have seen you
do, I look up direct sources, I read direct sources.  But Wikipedia is not
a bad place to start since they always give links to direct sources.  Or
are you so stupid to not notice that?  Whatever conclusions I come to is
from the data accessible.  Do you have an inside track to more primary
sources?  No, or you would have referenced them by now.  You live in
the world of opinion and are an opinionated buffoon.  Perhaps you are
of Middle Eastern heritage and have first hand knowledge from Middle
Eastern schooling. But then they would have had texts that you could
reference.

Of course I have a superficial grasp of the subject. I’m neither Middle
Eastern nor a Jew. Given the data available that is not tainted by either
side’s proclivities, I refuse to read either an Islamist-based source or
an Israeli-based source, unless it is the only source there is and then I
say so.  You certainly have not provided any reliable information but
spent most of your time swilling pathetic epithets at me.  A stupid
waste of time.  But it is your time.

I will continue to post the histories exactly as I have been doing.  Your
accusation of me being a Zionist is pure bull shit.  I’m no more a
Zionist than is your mother.  Well, maybe she is, I wouldn’t know but it
hardly seems like she would be one.  If you need to call me one to puff
up your delusion, then that is what you will do.  I could not care less
what you call me.  Hell you’ve and your comrades have already called
me every denigrating term in the book.  But you do realize the
Shepotamus is impervious.  I’ve already said that but you obviously
need reminded. 

You finally start giving some serious discussion starting with the PLO
that looks historical but you still don’t give any references or your
credentials that says you have reliale information.  You continue the
bull shit.  Mannnn it is really getting deep.  Why should anyone believe
anything you say?  You have a bulging view of yourself and your
opinions.  If you don’t like the history I am presenting, then give a
reference for a better one.  As I already said, there are no histories
written by Arabs available that I could find.

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By Shenonymous, March 28, 2010 at 6:33 pm Link to this comment

By the way, did Egypt and Syria give Israel any due notice of their
intention to attack in 1973?  I don’t think so.  Not from any of the data
I am able to find.  And granted there was some provocation…5 Yups,
you could say that.  Closing the Straits of Tiran was illegal and
threatening.  Did Nasser think Israel would do nothing and just accept
it and wait for the next move against them?  Given that Egypt was
provoking israel, it seemed it was a little inattentive of Nasser not to
have got his armed services ready for a possible israeli airstrike.  It is
interesting after all that, that Egypt did recognize Israel as a sovereign
nation! 

Well…I have found just today another website that can shed much light
on the subject.  You may not like it Shingo but I will go to
Palestinefacts.org for a rundown of just about everything kosher and
arabic with regard to the IP situation.  The claim is that every assertion
or description on the website is backed-up with reference links for
further investigation for every topic covered.  Seems like a good place
to start.  What references did you say you were using?  Wikipedia? 

In the words of an Arab… Fouad Ajami,  Majid Khadduri professor of
Middle East studies at the School of Advanced International Studies at
Johns Hopkins University and author, most recently, of The Foreigner’s
Gift: The Americans, the Arabs, and the Iraqis in Iraq , June 3, 2007, US
News: “The great irony of the Six-Day War of 1967 was that it began
with a hoax – a piece of faulty Soviet intelligence given to the Egyptians.
On May 13, the Soviet ambassador to Cairo informed the Egyptians that
Israel was massing ‘10 to 12 brigades’ on the Syrian border in
preparation for a big push against the radical regime in Damascus. In
response to that Soviet report, Nasser mobilized his troops on May 14
and dispatched them into the Sinai. The casus belli would come on May
22, when Nasser announced the closing of the Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli
shipping. Euphoria gripped the Arab world; Nasser hadn’t fired a shot,
but great gains had come his way. On May 30, King Hussein of Jordan
rushed to Cairo to place his army under Egyptian command.

At the remove of four decades, we should not overdo the importance of
that Soviet report about the phantom Israeli brigades. At the heart of
the war lay the willful Arab refusal to accept Israel’s legitimacy and
statehood. Israel’s victory in 1967 delivered a message: that the state
that had fought its way into the world in 1948 is there to stay.”

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By Shingo, March 28, 2010 at 4:49 pm Link to this comment

radson,

The larger picture to which you allude does exist, and there is no question that the I/P conflict is a component of it, but it still remains a fundamental conflict, and probably the most important one in the region.

The I.P conflict has always served the purpose of maintaining tensions in the region, thus serving to divide and conquer.  Israel played it’s biggest hand in 1967 when it snuffed out the visions of Pan Arabism that Nasser was trying to promote.  A unified Arab world is the last thing the West wants to see.

For the US in particular, the Middle East has always been a case of maintaining balance from it’s own perspective.  Balance meaning that no one state should be allowed to become too powerful or influential, or risk that balance.  Israel however has entertained aspirations of greatness and become something of a Frankenstein.

It is false to assume that the forty-three years of “Peace efforts” were anything more than window dressing.  After all, since 1976, the US has vetoed any resolutions which would have lead to a Palestinians state and as recently as November 2008, vetoed resolutions granting Palestinians self determination.

The Status Quo is where it is because that’s where the West wishes it to remain. 

Your observations about Iran are also acute.  Iran is no threat to anyone in terms of security, but they are a threat to Western aspirations and the balance of power. 
The alliance between Iran ,Hezbollah and Hamas could be easily dissolved.  In 2003, Iran proposed what came to be known as the Grand Bargain, whereby they offered to recognize Israel, wash their hands of Hamas and Hezbollah and even put their nuclear power program on the table.  In essence, Iran offered to meet every demand that Washington has made of them and went beyond those demands. 

Washington rejected the offer and went so far as to condemn the Swiss Ambassador for passing on the memo (as he as required to do). The sticking point for Washington was that Iran had requested a guarantee not to be attacked and to be recognized as a major player in the region.
One would think this was a reasonable request, but not when you’re an empire that demands submission from all states in the Middle East.

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By firefly, March 28, 2010 at 4:35 pm Link to this comment

It is completely illogical that Israel carries on like this, as it is sowing the seeds of its own destruction.

By slowly bulldozing all the land of the Palestinian people, and building, and building, and building Jewish homes for Jewish settlers, and consequently putting a stranglehold on the Palestinian people by pushing more and more into a smaller and more crowded concentration camp, Israel will find that the two state solution can no longer exist on the grounds that there will be no more real territory for a Palestinian state. Israel then has two choices: to massacre every single Palestinian man, woman and child, or to create a single democratic state for all, which can then no longer be a Jewish state on the grounds that the Palestinians will be the majority. Israel will then live to regret its short-sighted refusal to stop taking land from the Palestinians. This will happen within the next 20 years.

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By Shingo, March 28, 2010 at 4:27 pm Link to this comment

firefly,

” Anyone with any intelligence can see that that is pure humbug and quite frankly its laughable.”

There’s our mistake firefly.  You’re making the mistaken assumptino that shen is intelligent.

It would be laughable if it weren’t so tragic.

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By Shingo, March 28, 2010 at 4:23 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Part 1 of 2

You’ll have to excuse the length of my posts, but your knowledge of this topic is so flawed, that it requires detailed explanatrion.

You just keep digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole.

“Let’s see, where did we leave off?  Hmmmm.  Oh yeah…Nasser and the Egyptian declaration it would never recognize Israel…Hmmm try 1979 - Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty. (Never say never!)”

Actually, the reason Israel agreed to the peace treaty was due to a number of factors.  Israel nearly lost the 1973 war with Egypt, which would have been avoided had Israel negotiated with Egypt.  Henry Kissinger bears a great deal of responsibility for this as he knocked down any suggestion fo a peace settlement between the states at the time.

Anyway, Israel agreed to the treaty, albeit begrudgingly, after being arm twister by Carter.

“Why don’t you supply such references, Shingo?”

From partisan propaganda sites like the Peres Centre for peace?  Probably because I prefer mainstream news sources that are not partisan lie factories like the Peres Centre for Peace.

I guess you have to look at the funny side of the fact that a war criminal like Peres can get away with having his name associated with a Centre for Peace.

“Pakistan “Recognizes Israel”

Did you know that Arafat and the PLO also recognized Israel? How far did that get him?

“ King Hussein remained king (46 years) until his death.  He was committed to democracy, civil liberties and human rights to help make Jordan a model state for the Middle East, and the kingdom is internationally recognized for having the most exemplary human rights record in that region. Interesting don’t you think?”

Given that Hussein was responsible for the Black September massacre, it goes to show what an Orwellian world we live in when such a man is lauded for his respect for human rights.  Then again, Bush did refer to that other war criminal, Sharon, as a man of peace.

“We can easily see why the PLO would want to depose him.  Democracy does not fit the tyranny of Islamic oppression.”

That’s funny.  Since when was Jordan ever a democracy?  Ironically, the PLO and Hamas have conducted elections, whereas Jordan has not.

“Hussein saw the PLO both as a direct and indirect threat to his power.””

Exactly.  You see, if Jordan was a democracy, this would not be the case.  Power is decided at the ballot box, not one’s birthright. Than you for proving my point and demonstrating what a farce the suggestions that Hussein had any track record for promioting human rights.
All tyrants throughout history have feared populist movements.  Furthermore, by ’67, Hussein was already on the payroll of the US, so he too was taking orders from Washington, much like Mubarek is today.

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By firefly, March 28, 2010 at 4:22 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, you said

…… I say Islamists because I don’t believe it is the
Palestinians at the bottom of all the turmoil.  I believe they would want peace if given the opportunity.  It is the militant Islamists who are fomenting all the misery in the Gaza area…………

I take issue with this point. To me, it’s a bit like saying that the French Resistance who bombed part of the railway that was used by the Nazi’s were “fomenting all the misery” in France, when in fact, they were defending their homes and their dignity against a brutal occupation.

I find it unbelievable that people still make excuses for Israel. Israel uses constant false piety to justify what can only be described as persecution (denial of freedom, denial of food and water and medicine, denial of basic human rights, and the never ending threat of extreme, powerful and deadly retribution). It is absolute nonsense that the Palestinians (or Hamas) could ever be a ‘real’ threat to the existence of Israel. Anyone with any intelligence can see that that is pure humbug and quite frankly its laughable.  This attempt to force a subjugated and highly vulnerable population to ‘acknowledge’ the right for Israel to exist, when Israel, the absolute Goliath here, refuses point blank, to acknowledge the right for Palestinians to occupy their own land, their own homes and determine their own destiny. What is that, if not the denial of existence?

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By Shingo, March 28, 2010 at 4:21 pm Link to this comment

Part 2 of 2

To explain what happened, I’ll refer you to Moshe Dayan, defense minister at the time:

“I made a mistake in allowing the [Israeli] conquest of the Golan Heights. As defense minister I should have stopped it because the Syrians were not threatening us at the time.”

The attack proceeded, he went on, not because Israel was threatened but because of pressure from land-hungry farmers and army commanders in northern Israel.

“Of course [war with Syria] was not necessary. You can say the Syrians are bastards and attack when you want. But this is not policy. You don’t open aggression against an enemy because he’s a bastard but because he’s a threat.”
About those shellings: Syria shelled and otherwise emanated cold hostility. But, Dayan told his interviewer, “at least 80 percent” of two decades of border clashes were initiated by Israel. “We would send a tractor to plow some [disputed] area . . . and we knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn’t shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that’s how it was.”

In April of 1967 Israel were already ramping up for a war with Syrian. One of those incidents instigated by the Israelis, unfolded into an aerial battle with the Syrians. The Israelis knocked down 6 Syrian planes, 6 Syrian Migs, including 1 over Damascus. And it was at this point again when Nasser was being taunted for not doing anything.
Of course, need we be reminded (you maybe) that Israel attacked the USS Liberty to before striking Syria, so that the US could not listen in on their plans.  There was a ceasefire being imposed and just at the last minute they took the Golan.

So yes Shen, truth is always interesting.  You just haven’t discovered it yet.

It’s always a pleasure to debunk the garbage you write Shen.  I hope this has been instructive to you.

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By Shingo, March 28, 2010 at 3:48 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

I don’t profess to speak of joy Palestinians may have because I don’t waste time on sanctimonious BS or patronising those who’s lives are beyond my own life experience. Human beings have an amazing capacity to smile in the face of tragedy just as the Jews did during the Holocaust.

Nor do I need you point me to Palestinians artists.  I am more than familiar with the creativity of the Palestinian culture.

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By Shingo, March 28, 2010 at 3:45 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Part 1 of 2

Listening to you give a history lesson is like watching Sarah Palin giving her views on Russia.  Given your ignorance of the Israeli Lebanon conflict, it would have been no surprise for you to be equally clueless about the blockade on Gaza.  Being the good little Israeli stooge, you have done a remarkable job of ignoring it in the context of the conflict thus far, even though it does represent an act of war, warranting a response, which you predictably insist is unjustified.

I have no problem with addressing the role that Egypt plays in maintaining the blockade.  Egypt keeps the Rafah crossing closed at the behest of the US and Israel.  The US treats the Rafah crossing as it’s own domain. You’re probably ignorant of the fact that Egypt receives the second biggest foreign aid payments from the US and do as they are told by Washington.  The US army core of engineers is currently installing underground steel walls to block the tunnels from Gaza to Egypt. Who do you think is paying for it?

Your diatribe about the 1967 war is debunked by simple history of the the 1956 war and Israel’s efforts to lure Nasser into a war. As early as 1953/1954, Ben Gurion, Moshe Dayan and others, expressed their desire to provoke Nasser into a war so they can knock him out. They conducted a raid in February 1955 in Gaza, where many Egyptian soldiers are killed.  Israel were hoping to provoke Nasser into a war. Nasser didn’t take the bait so in 1956 they launched an attack, with the Brittish and the French, called the Sinai Campaign. 1967 was a culmination of events. Israel saw a new opportunity to knock out Nasser and stop the modernizing force in the Arab world dead in it’s tracks.

Israel wanted the Sinai, Jerusalem, Hebron, the Golan, the West Bank.  There was no desire to negotiate with the it’s Arab neighbours, because Israel were never satisfied with the ‘48 borders, which they referred to as the borders of lamentation.

With regard to the straights of Tiran, Nasser proposed a moratorium. Egypt would not to fire on foreign vessels that go through the Straits and in return, Israel would not send through Israeli-flagged vessels. Israel said no.
Nasser then proposed that the matter be referred to the World Court to adjudicate. Israel said no.

Under international law states are duty bound to exploit all diplomatic options before going to war, Israel didn’t exploit any diplomatic options for a very good reason. It wanted the war. Why? Because they were confident it would be a walkover, it would be won very quickly and very easily.

We also have the statements from Israeli leaders themselves which put to rest the bogus claim that Israel wanted a peaceful settlement

1. Yitzhak Rabin, the Israeli army chief of staff during the war, later stated: “I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it.”
2. General Mattityahu Peled, a member of Israel’s general staff in 1967, opined that “the thesis according to which the danger of genocide weighed on us in June 1967, and that Israel struggled for its physical existence is only a bluff born and developed after the war.”
3. Menachem Begin, not yet prime minister but a member of the Israeli cabinet, allowed that: “The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.”

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By Shingo, March 28, 2010 at 3:44 pm Link to this comment

Part 2 of 2

You see, I have read plenty of literature on this period, and Shen, doing a Wikipedia search is not reading literature.  By your own admission, you haven’t read any literature but are “finding all of this history very enlightening.”  Obviously this stuff is new to you, which explains your poor and superficial grasp of the subject.

“Anyway, earlier in 1963, when the formation of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) materialized, the destruction of Israel was set in stone and the PLO’s hostile rhetoric started appearing in their terrorist attacks.”

Typical Zionist hyperbole.

The PLO were formed to achieve the liberation of Palestine through resistance.  The very same way that Israel itself was created.

In essence it was identical to the Stern Gan, the Irgun and Hagana They too conducted raids, bobmbed hotels, killed British troops.  The Stern gang collaborated with the Nazis and the Haganah went so far as to kill fellow Jews.  During WWII,  the Haganah bombed the SS Patria in Haifa harbor by Haganah. Apparently members of the Haganah didn’t like the British plan to send European Jewish refugees to camps in Mauritius for the duration of the war. A couple hundred were killed so the terrorists could make the point that Jewish victims of the Holocaust were better off dead in Eretz Israel, than alive in Mauritius.
When Nasser came to power he wasn’t at all interested in Israel. He was interested in modernizing Egypt but the Israelis were fearful of a modern Egypt, especially a modern Egypt preaching Pan-Arab nationalism. Pan Arabism was also a threat to the West, who’s control of the region rested upon maintaining a division and inciting tribal hostilities between states.

Jordan’s government, a dictatorship after all, was always vulnerable and like all dictators, maintained his hold on power by crushing any populist movement, like the PLO.
Your superficial mention of Sachar’s book is pathetic to say the least, because I am quite certain you haven’t read it.  If you had, you wodln;t be so ignorant of the events of ’55 and ’56.  Save yourself the sermon about the history of the 6 day war.  You have nothing to tell me that I don’t already know, though I would encourage you to educate yourself on the topic.

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By Shingo, March 28, 2010 at 3:43 pm Link to this comment

Part 2 of 2

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, March 28, 2010 at 11:52 am Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, March 28 at 2:02 pm #


Robert,
You have no idea how idiotic and petty you appear.  You still are too infantile to accept that other people have different thoughts and that doesn’t immediately make them “Ultra Zionist” or “Lard Ass”.  You are so narrow minded you could peer through a keyhole with both eyes.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That whimpering ITW,

The documentations/posts are all below, in black & white, for all to read/see. Your deceptive ways went down with you in your own trap!

Last call/post…on ITW’s whining, you are a hypocrite & the record speaks for its self!

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By Inherit The Wind, March 28, 2010 at 11:02 am Link to this comment

Robert,
You have no idea how idiotic and petty you appear.  You still are too infantile to accept that other people have different thoughts and that doesn’t immediately make them “Ultra Zionist” or “Lard Ass”.  You are so narrow minded you could peer through a keyhole with both eyes.

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By radson, March 28, 2010 at 9:23 am Link to this comment

As much as the International press and the US MSM concentrate on the Israeli and Palestinian struggle as being the main ‘issue’ with regards to the instability in the Middle East ,they are intentionally under-reporting the larger picture.This conundrum involves many Nations ‘Israel ,America, Lebanon ,Syria ,Egypt,Turkey ,Iraq ,Afghanistan ,Iran ,Pakistan ,Saudi Arabia ,Palestinian nationhood and many more.Therefore it’s .
logical to conclude ,that this problem is in a sense Global.After forty-three years of Peace efforts ,but more specifically ,since the collapse of the Soviet Union and all it’s implications next to nothing has changed
with regards to the Status Quo and it would be accurate to conclude ,that the overall situation has actually deteriorated throughout the entire region .What were witnessing is a zone of tension that stretches from Israel to the Indian border,south all the way to the Horn of Africa and Northwards to the Stans of Central Asia.Now having said that, other Nations clearly become involved Russia ,China and the EU ,all of which
are participants in ‘The Grand Chessboard’ to quote Zbigniew Brzezinski.The US and for that matter Israel have decided that Iran is the centerpiece in this Geopolitical puzzle ,by promoting the theory that Iran
is pursuing Weapons of Mass Destruction ,although they don’ t use the phrase because it was worn-out in the war against Iraq and now have to find different cliché‘s that will entice the sheeple of the Planet.Like
‘existential threat’ and other descriptions like, a threat to world security and also stressing the presumptions that if Iran does develop a nuclear bomb ,that Iranians are going to commit Collective Suicide by destroying Israel and all the other Countries and peoples in the vicinity .The possibility of Iran developing a bomb is real ,but the pressure that the US is applying on Iran is actually promoting such an outcome and is
counter to what there’re preaching to the world ,being the honest brokers that they claim to be.The alliance between Iran ,Hezbollah and Hamas is real and has become a major sticking point in this Road-Map towards Peace ,but to place the blame unequivocally on Iran is a sign of myopia that Russia and China contest ,hence the stalement in support of excruciating sanctions,which is reminiscent to what Iraq was subjected to before the infamous invasion.If there is a preemptive strike against Iran are the US and Israel ready to confront the fact that many Russian and Chinese Nationals will likely perish in the attack and what repercussions would be forthcoming from those Nations ,unless of course they will be informed before hand,but that would mean cooperation on their part.Historically this has occurred before, just before operation
Barbarossa ,but in that case it concerned German Nationals in this case it would involve Third Parties.Does this impasse between Israel and the Palestinian’s only involve the Levant ,well I’ll let you be the judge.

Leefeller how’s your pet rock doing ,thanks’ for your comment.

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By Shenonymous, March 28, 2010 at 9:04 am Link to this comment

Let’s see, where did we leave off?  Hmmmm.  Oh yeah…Nasser and the
Egyptian declaration it would never recognize Israel…Hmmm try 1979 -
Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty. (Never say never!)

http://www.mfa.gov.eg/MFA_Portal/en-
GB/Foreign_Policy/Treaties/Treaty+of+Peace+between+the+Arab+Repu
blic+of+Egypt+and+the+State+of+Israel+26+March+1979.htm

From the treaty:  Title:   The Government of the Arab Republic of
Egypt and the Government of the State of Israel

From the Preamble:
CONVINCED THAT the conclusion of a Treaty of Peace between Egypt
and Israel is an important step in the search for comprehensive peace
in the area and for the attainment of settlement of the Arab- Israeli
conflict in all its aspects

INVITING the other Arab parties to this dispute to join the peace
process with Israel guided by and based on the principles of the
aforementioned Framework;

The fact that Egypt cites “the Government of Israel” in the title of their
printed Treaty, it can be assumed they recognized The Government
of Israel
!

Efforts to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict among members of
both populations. http://www.peres-center.org/SectionProject.asp?
cc=01100209

Why don’t you supply such references, Shingo?  Is it because you are
like an ostrich with its head entrenched in the sands of denial?  Must
you leave everything up to the She-Hag?  The hem of your incompetent
slip is showing!

As an aside:  BTW:  Pakistan “Recognizes” Israel - M. Shahid Alam
September 4, 2003Dissident Voice
http://dissidentvoice.org/Articles8/Alam_Pakistan-Israel.htm
Abdullah II bin al-Hussein is the current King of the Hashemite
Kingdom of Jordan.  Abdullah’s ascension to the throne was a surprise
to almost everyone. In the final months of King Hussein’s life, he had
entrusted power to his brother, Crown Prince Hassan, heir apparent to
the Jordanian throne. Less than two weeks before his death, some
feuding within the royal family angered Hussein and caused him to
announce that Abdullah was now next in line for the throne. It was an
announcement that shocked and worried many in Jordan. Abdullah,
Hussein’s eldest son by his second wife, Princess Mona, was known as a
competent military leader, serving as a major general in charge of
Jordan’s elite Special Forces.

Another BTW:  King Hussein remained king (46 years) until his death. 
He was committed to democracy, civil liberties and human rights to
help make Jordan a model state for the Middle East, and the kingdom
is internationally recognized for having the most exemplary human
rights record in that region. Interesting don’t you think?  See
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=4673

We can easily see why the PLO would want to depose him.  Democracy
does not fit the tyranny of Islamic oppression.

Hussein saw the PLO both as a direct and indirect threat to his power.
He feared that the PLO with Nasser’s help would try to overthrow him
or that the PLO’s attacks on Israel would certainly provoke retaliatory
strikes by Israeli forces and that could likely weaken his authority. By
the beginning of 1967, Hussein closed the PLO’s offices in Jerusalem,
arrested many of the group’s members, and withdrew recognition of
the organization
.  Nasser and his friends in the region unleashed a
torrent of criticism on Hussein for betraying the Arab cause.  Hussein,
indeed, would soon have the chance to redeem himself.

The United Arab Republic dissolved and that left Syria bitter towards
Israel.  The Syrian army took advantage of the Golan Heights, which
towers 3,000 feet above the Galilee, to shell Israeli farms and villages.
Syria’s attacks grew so frequent in 1965 and 1966, it forced children
living on kibbutzim in the Huleh Valley to sleep in bomb shelters.

To be continued.  Interesting isn’t it?  Truth always is.  Why, Shingo, do
you not give some of the truth, some of the time at any rate?

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