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Israel Crackdown Puts Liberal Jews on the Spot

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Posted on Mar 15, 2010
AP / Muhammed Muheisen

Israeli soldiers take position next to the highly controversial security barrier, which has been used, critics say, to seize Palestinian land and manipulate the population.

By Chris Hedges

The Israeli government, its brutal war crimes in Gaza exposed in detail in the U.N. report by Justice Richard Goldstone, has implemented a series of draconian measures to silence and discredit dissidents, leading intellectuals and human rights organizations inside and outside Israel that are accused—often falsely—of assisting Goldstone’s U.N. investigators. The government of Benjamin Netanyahu is attempting to shut down Israel’s premier human rights organizations, including B’Tselem, the New Israel Fund (NIF) and the Association for Civil Rights in Israel. It is busy expelling or excluding peace activists and foreign nationals from the Palestinian territories. The campaign, if left unchecked, will be as catastrophic for Palestinians as it will be for Israel.

The Goldstone report, which is over 500 pages, investigated Israel’s 22-day air and ground assault on Gaza that took place from Dec. 27, 2008, to Jan. 18, 2009. The United Nations and the European Parliament have endorsed the report. The report found that Israel used disproportionate military force against Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip while failing to take adequate precautions to protect the civilian population against the military assault. The Israeli attack killed 1,434 people, including 960 civilians, according to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights. More than 6,000 homes were destroyed or damaged, leaving behind some $3 billion in destruction in one of the poorest areas on Earth. No Israelis were killed by Hamas rockets fired into Israel during the assault. The report did not limit itself to the 22-day attack; rather, it went on to indict the occupation itself. It examines the beginning of the occupation and condemns Israel for the border closures, the blockade and for the wall or security barrier in the West Bank. It has two references to the right of return, investigates Israeli torture and criticizes the willful destruction of the Palestinian economy.


“The impact of the Goldstone report is tremendous,” the Middle East scholar Norman Finkelstein said when I reached him in New York. “It marks and catalyzes the breakup of the Diaspora Jewish support for Israel because Goldstone is the classical Diaspora Jew. He is a lawyer and upholder of human rights and a liberal. He has distinguished himself in the field of law and he is also a lover of Zion. He calls himself a Zionist. His mother was an activist in the Zionist movement. His daughter did aliyah. He sits on the board of governors of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. He has an honorary degree from the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. He has said over and over again that he is a Zionist. He believes Jews have a right to a state in Palestine. His is a mostly emblematic profile of the classically liberal Jew.”

Liberal has a distinct connotation,” Finkelstein went on. “It means to believe in the rule of law. It means to believe in international institutions. It means to believe in human rights. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are liberal organizations. What the Goldstone phenomenon registers and catalyzes is the fact that it is impossible to reconcile liberal convictions with Israel’s conduct; too much is now known about the history of the conflict and the human rights record and the so-called peace process. It is impossible to be both liberal and defend Israeli policy. That was the conflict that confronted Goldstone. I very much doubt he wanted to condemn Israel.”

“Israeli liberalism always had a function in Israeli society,” said Finkelstein, whose new book, “This Time We Went Too Far,” examines the Israeli attack a year ago on Gaza. “When I talk about liberals I mean people like A.B. Yehoshua, David Grossman and Amos Oz. Their function was to issue these anguished criticisms of Israel which not only extenuated Israeli crimes but exalted Israeli crimes. ‘Isn’t it beautiful, the Israeli soul, how it is anguished over what it has done.’ It is the classic case of having your cake and eating it. Not only were any crimes being committed extenuated, but they were beautiful. And now something strange happened. Along comes a Jewish liberal and he says, ‘Spare me your tears. I am only interested in the law.’ ”

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“Goldstone did not perform the role of the Jewish liberal,” Finkelstein said, “which is to be anguished, but no consequences. And all of a sudden Israeli liberal Jews are discovering, hey, there are consequences for committing war crimes. You don’t just get to walk into the sunset and look beautiful. They can’t believe it. They are genuinely shocked. ‘Aren’t our tears consequences enough?’ Aren’t our long eyes and broken hearts consequences enough?’ ‘No,” he said, ‘you have to go to the criminal court.’ ”

The campaign against Israeli dissidents has taken the form of venomous denunciations of activists and jurists, including Justice Goldstone. It includes a bill before the Israeli parliament, the Knesset, which will make it possible to imprison the leaders of Israeli human rights groups if they fail to comply with crippling new registration conditions. Human rights activists from outside Israel who work in the Palestinian territories are being rounded up and deported. The government is refusing to issue work visas to employees of 150 NGOs operating in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, including Oxfam, Save the Children and Médecins Sans Frontières (Doctors Without Borders). The new tourist visas effectively bar these employees from Palestinian territory under Israeli occupation. Professor Naomi Chazan, the Israeli head of the NIF, which has donors in the United States, is being publicly vilified by ultranationalist groups such as Im Tirzu.  Foreign donors to the NIF, as well as other human rights groups, are being pressured by Israeli officials to halt contributions. Billboards have sprouted up around Tel Aviv and Jerusalem with a grotesque caricature of Chazan, who has been branded by groups such as Im Tirzu as an agent for Hamas and Iran, with a horn growing from her forehead. “Naomi-Goldstone-Chazan” the caption on the billboard reads. Im Tirzu, the front organization behind many of the attacks, includes among its financial backers the John Hagee Ministries and the New York Central Fund, which also support extremist settler organizations.


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By Inherit The Wind, April 10, 2010 at 3:17 pm Link to this comment

Jewish Fanaticism, is also this “great intolerance of frustration,” to give it a
medical diagnosis. Anyone who has the audacity to say one word against the
“Jewish lobby,” Israeli policy, or Jewish “over-representation” in the media
immediately finds himself dragged through the mud by the whole media
system, calumniated and vilified,

******************************************

Aw….Poor wittle Omop"88”.....Can’t even stereotype and hate Jews without being tagged as what he is…a racist.  You don’t like Jews in the media? Vote with your pocketbook and don’t buy “Their” newspapers, listen to “Their” radio stations or watch “Their” TV.

Don’t like Jews in government?  Vote ‘em out!

Don’t like Jewish lobbies? Vote for people who won’t listen to ‘em.

Think Jews run everything?  Find a good psychiatrist and some good meds (but make sure they aren’t Jewish first)!

**********************************************
For youse ‘ll info this is what   Oxford English Dictionary (OED) states that a
gypsy is a member of a wandering race (by themselves called Romany), of
MIDDLE EASTERN/INDIAN origin which first appeared in England about the
beginning of the 16th c. and was then believed to have come from EGYPT.

****************************************************

That’s the general view of the Roma people.  And they have been vilified in Europe for generations.  In your usual ignorance, you had no that I am fully aware of that and the OED definition

****************************************************
From the comments even the GYPSIES cannot escape being tagged with being
Jewish.  QUE BRUTA VITA!

****************************************************

No, Roma are NOT Jewish.  But they frequently suffered a similar fate including Hitler’s desire and actions to eradicate them.  And Jews and Gypsies in Eastern Europe enjoyed cultural exchanges, the most obvious being Klezmer music.  Klezmer melds Jewish and Roma musical concepts and musicians could come from either group and play together.

Both can slurred in the same sentence: “Be sure to Jew the price down so he doesn’t Gyp you!”

But it’s refreshing to see you are an equal opportunity bigot, eager to load on Roma any deficiencies you cannot get away with loading on Jews.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 10, 2010 at 3:09 pm Link to this comment

An interesting quest in 25 words or less, ... no less.

Not sure it can be done, but for thread respect of the post-ers with the most-ers, I would suggest SHinges and She start, (Just to see if they can write something in 25 words or less?) Then Robert to see if he could write something at all comprehensive, and while this project is happening,  I will take care of some important business, contemplating which one of my 40 cats has been drinking my Tequila!

Is this going to be like when I was in school as a little kid, a sort of show and tell?

Reflections on human Nature?

Human nature seems to have many handicaps and one which came to my attention recently, is the bullying nature in some humans.  There is an auricle on TD about the teenager girl who commuted suicide allegedly caused from constant bullying by fellow students. Then recently I heard of bullying in the work places by co workers and supervisors. This is simplistic but maybe countries like the USA are just plan old Bullies?

Is it possible or probable people who bully become leaders of countries and enjoy bullying others for their, pleasure, entertainment or amusement?  Of course there is the power thing and for some a necessary feeling of control and superiority by attempting to make others feel inferior. Bigotry has it’s kind of bullies. Human nature seems to require this constant drama of cause and effect?

Just some more opinion on this cold dank rainy Saturday.

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By Shenonymous, April 10, 2010 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment

That tree, radson, the apple one, was the one that gave knowledge of
good and evil.  The one that was not partaken of was the tree of
everlasting life.  But back to the tree of knowledge of good and evil,
that means morality is the basic knowledge to be interpreted.  As an
allegory, you are changing the devil’s (serpent’s) role.  Unless you say
that all of morality is constructed on the gold standard, with which I
would wholeheartedly disagree.  The punishment for the eating of the
apple that would introduce morality to mankind, now I suppose that is
a form of punishment, but there is also the possibility of reward (good
is one of the two options).  The gold ingot metaphor is really your
personal interpretation and no doubt anyone who sees the world in
terms of dollar signs would agree with you.  If the story was created to
provide a lesson for the Jewish people (and the Christians and the
Muslims since their holybooks carry the same story), then there would
not have been a choice and A & E (not arts and entertainment, or…as
an afterthought, may it is! LOL), that they could have avoided.  The
lesson just would not be there if they had made the “better” choice. 
Also there would not have been any further humans to populate the
earth since they would not have parented any children. 

I do agree that were I to give the students a geopolitical struggle quiz,
one of the limitations would be for them to propose how to avoid harm
to the planet?  Perhaps we could take the quiz right here?  Please write
in 25 words or less how the world can be made better if gold ingots or
bags of gold (and all that means), were not used as means of trade. 
For we would not be able to do without trade, right?  Then, how can
this be done without harming the planet or anyone on it?  I added that
last phrase since I have a high regard for the human being.

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By Shenonymous, April 10, 2010 at 2:16 pm Link to this comment

omop - I would not say on what campus I danced.  I have too many
who have such a high dislike for me that I do not feel safe.  They may
even take glee in that fact.  I seem to bring out the beastie in some
psyches.  Such is life, and I have dealt with it in a natural and
satisfactory way.  Paranoid, eh…maybe.  But better safe than sorry.  I’ve
moved twice in the last eight years, but always to a better place and a
better job.  And I insist on being a part of the world, and to write on
Truthdig among a few other blogs.  Peculiar, but Truthdig is the only
blogsite where some of the denizens have expressed violence against
other posters.  Not only against me, but a couple of others.  It is
sociopathological but demonstrates the notion that humans must
become more consciously articulate and able to argue well their points
without resorting to violence.  I think inflammatory articles such as this
one does not really do any good as they seems to incite excessive
emotional outlets (rants if you will) that pumps up the likelihood to
violence among those prone to it. 

I cannot say that history has yet to be satisfied and a lot of the angst
in the world is a result of historic oppression.  If those who support the
Palestinians feel uncontrolled oppression has been levied against those
people then that somehow will have to be abated.  On the other hand,
for the opponent, Israel, there are also a huge contingent who believes
the Jews have been oppressed through history as well.  And these two
are enemies at the moment.  How shall this be resolved?  Neither the
one-state nor the two-state seem to be the answer.  What other answer
is there?  An answer that will be permanent, that is? 

And while we are preoccupied at the moment with Israelis and
Palestinians, the horror continues in Africa and actually elsewhere, i.e.,
Kyrgyzstan.  Have we taken our eye off our brethren there?  I just
downloaded a 624-page Human Rights report 2010.  Yup 624 pages! 
The index of countries involved in human rights violations is
staggering.  19 countries in Africa alone, 12 in Central and South
America.  16 countries in Asia, 16 countries in Europe and Central Asia,
and 16 in the Middle East and North Africa.  The United States:  here is
the report on page 582:  US citizens enjoy a broad range of civil
liberties and have recourse to a strong system of independent federal
and state courts, but serious human rights concerns remain,
particularly in criminal justice, immigration, and counterterrorism law
and policy. The Obama administration has said it will address many of
these concerns but, at this writing nearly one year into Barack Obama’s
presidency; it had taken few concrete steps, with pages number to 595
one can easily see where Americans are with respect to human rights
violations.  An interesting omission is that of Canada.  It is not that
Canada does not have human rights issues.  Their treatment of the
Cree natives or other indigenous people has yet to be evaluated.
Amnesty International is the agency that shows reports on Canada.

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By radson, April 10, 2010 at 12:57 pm Link to this comment

Shen

Actually I don’t have that all elusive ‘Elixir’ that you were referring too ,although it would be priceless in itself ,yet at same time free for everyone.The quest for domination always seems to come back to the
usual reasons ,whether its aggrandizement ,natural resources or Mammon and the control that goes with all of the above.I’ll go off on a tangent with this ‘idea’ ;the Adam and Eve fable where the forbidden fruit
was supposedly the Apple ,once eaten would subject Mankind to a form of punishment and chaos.Yet I don’t subscribe to that point of view ,because I believe the ‘Choice ’ was between an Apple and a Golden
Ingot ,the Apple promotes and sustains life whilst the Ingot cannot be eaten and has only a superficial value,its kind of like -what has more value in the Desert -is it a canteen of Water or the bag of Gold.Therefore
Adam and Eve made the wrong choice and the Serpent is still amongst us today.Since you have stated that you are a Teacher can you Quiz your students in a mock Geopolitical struggle ,but insist on the Guideline
that whatever decision is taken in the Game would require that the Planet is not harmed in the process.

My Heart goes out to Polska at the moment for their tragic loss

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By omop, April 10, 2010 at 12:15 pm Link to this comment

True to form, Although I must admit a bit dissapointed with Sheno’s take since
for some unknown reason I figured she either was an Associate faculty at USC
or UCLA.

  ITW.conforms to what a French amie has been quoted several times as
saying.”

  Jewish Fanaticism, is also this “great intolerance of frustration,” to give it a
medical diagnosis. Anyone who has the audacity to say one word against the
“Jewish lobby,” Israeli policy, or Jewish “over-representation” in the media
immediately finds himself dragged through the mud by the whole media
system, calumniated and vilified,

  For youse ‘ll info this is what   Oxford English Dictionary (OED) states that a
gypsy is a member of a wandering race (by themselves called Romany), of
MIDDLE EASTERN/INDIAN origin which first appeared in England about the
beginning of the 16th c. and was then believed to have come from EGYPT.

  From the comments even the GYPSIES cannot escape being tagged with being
Jewish.  QUE BRUTA VITA!

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By Shenonymous, April 10, 2010 at 11:20 am Link to this comment

I don’t think omop you meant that in the romantic sense! A line at the
end of the 14th c. poesy, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, where
the “Green Knight” offers to allow anyone to strike him with his axe if
the challenger will take a return blow in a year and a day. Gawain
accepts, and beheads him in one blow, (beheading was not invented by
the Saracens) only to have the Green Knight stand up, pick up his head,
and remind Gawain to meet him at the appointed time. The story of
Gawain’s struggle to meet the appointment and his adventures along
the way demonstrate the spirit of chivalry and loyalty.  The literal
translation from Old French is “Shame be to him who thinks evil of it”,
or more strictly: “Let him who thinks ill there be shamed.” It is
sometimes re-interpreted as “Evil be to him who evil thinks”.” 

So who exactly are you calling a scoundrel?  It is a hoot that you have
introduce this somewhat medieval motto of the English chivalric Order
of the Garter here on Truthdig!  I curtsy to you for this frolic.  Again,
though, huminid is not a word.  So do tell me… your huminids
Jeewish Jipsies didn’t know how to swim? Floating is something they
have done for thousands of years.  For fun see
http://books.google.com/books?
id=NmQMAAAAYAAJ&printsec=titlepage&source=gbs_summary_r&cad;=
0#v=onepage&q&f;=false
FYI: any extra-long web link must be hand entered into a browser
address line because the TD forum limits the line length.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 10, 2010 at 11:20 am Link to this comment

Leefeller, April 10 at 12:12 pm #

Cover ups! Cover Ups! The pope is an expert in cover ups, the military should learn from the pope.
*******************************************

Actually, probably not!

So now Omop"88” is going after the Roma, aka, “Gypsies”, who were traditionally hated in Europe as much as the Jews, and on whom Hitler’s fury fell as well.

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By omop, April 10, 2010 at 9:33 am Link to this comment

The skepticism about the findings of HUMINIDS in South Africa seems to have
been vindicated in that the skeletons of the boy and woman were actually placed
by the team of experts from Melbourne two weeks before their socalled
“discovery”.

The socalled HUMINIDS after a more exhautive studies of the skeletons were
determined to be gypsies who did not quite make it accross during the parting of
the Red Sea.

Shenonymous is right after all and one can only say categorically and finally:-

  “Honi soit qui mal y pense”, Which as you’ll no is Creole.

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By Leefeller, April 10, 2010 at 9:12 am Link to this comment

Cover ups! Cover Ups! The pope is an expert in cover ups, the military should learn from the pope.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 10, 2010 at 9:05 am Link to this comment

Yes, that is much clearer ITW.  You are saying that because of the
publicity of the tragic death of the Polish President, who was on his way
to commemorate another tragedy, those 20,000 Polish officers’
massacre, the world will now be reminded of the shameful treatment of
Stalin’s Union of Soviet Socialist Republic’s savagery.  Isn’t it pitiful that
humans have to be reminded of the indiscriminate human cold-
blooded thirst for blood?  When does the real learning begin?  We talk
about human evolution, a lot.  Religion has not dampened the thirst,
science and logic has not dampened the thirst.  Can it ever be
quenched?  Is it an impossibility that is craved? Truly craved?  For how
long will deplorable and lamentable acts remain in the light-weight and
too-quick-to move-on-to-the-next-glitzy-thing minds of the public? 
It will, I’m afraid, only last as long as the next big news story. Like a
few hours.  This is classic Skinnerian pre-programmed operant
conditioning.

I think you are right that the truth of the killing of the Reuters reporters
is muddy at best.  The unconscionable part is that the immediate
reaction by the military is to cover it up.  Hush hush, lest the horror be
in the faces of the public.  Keep the public anesthetized, numbed to the
reality of war.  The military must keep its raison d’etre, its reason for
existence, in sharp outline.  Reasonable comparison:  It is not only the
American military that does this.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 10, 2010 at 7:37 am Link to this comment

I’m not as up on the deaths of the Reuters reporters as I should be, however there was some very thoughtful commentary on it on NPR yesterday.  The video, while apparently disturbing, is from a gun camera, which, by definition, gives a very tunnel-vision view of events and has litter peripheral vision.

So I don’t know if it was criminal negligence, outright deliberate murder, or a situation where the poor reporters were caught in the wrong place when the actions by the troops were correct and it’s just unfortunate.  I just don’t know, but the release of the video was necessary and it’s clear that SOME cover-up was going on using “military security” as the excuse.

But this event that was being remembered in Russia was the slaughter, not in battle, but as a slaughterhouse, of 20,000 Polish officers all at once.  That’s probably far more than all the Americans who have died in the 20 years in wars.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 10, 2010 at 7:30 am Link to this comment

ITW, why would more shameful treatment of Stalin’s USSR be in the
news today? 

************************************************

Huh?  I think you mis-parsed what I said:

“I predict far more of the shameful treatment of Stalin’s USSR will be in the news today.”

On second blush it doesn’t quite convey the thought I intended: The shameful treatment BY Stalin’s USSR will be in the news today. 

I hope that’s clearer—“shameful” referred to how Stalin treated Poland.

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By Shenonymous, April 10, 2010 at 7:17 am Link to this comment

After a long siege of attack and counterattack Shingo I would be the
last to say you were naive.  Your observation about ‘show trials’ I
believe is true.  For instance, how many trials have we seen in 9 years? 
There are certainly scores of incidents where military personnel have
been involved in senseless killing.  It is the probability factor. 

War is war and I understand that military conflict is the result of the
absolute incapability of humans to settle disagreements peacefully. 
However, military kills other military, that is the rule, not civilians who
may, or may not, support any disagreement.  But simply by being
civilians they are not military.  Civilians are human beings with lives
that allegedly have value if we listen to our conscience.  I think I know
you know that.  Isn’t that the primary moral imperative?  That all
human life is valuable and that each human has the inherent right to
live a fulfilling life?  Whatever that might mean?  War among men, that
is the problem that needs solved.  The world is anxiously waiting for
ideas on that one.

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By Shingo, April 10, 2010 at 6:33 am Link to this comment

Of course the Reuter reporters lives are not more impotant than any others, but there is pretty compelling evidence that these individuals were murdered, thus it should be investigated.

Hopefully, this would lead to further relelations and evidence that would lead to further invetigations.

Of course, I am being completely naive.  If there is any such investigation, it will likely lead to a show trial for as handful of soliders at the bottom end of the food chain.  A clamp down on similar leaks taking place in the future woukld follow, much like the way subsequent photos of Abu Graib were suppressed because they were deemed too damaging for public consumption.  Worst of all, even though the classified pictures of Abu Graid were deemed more extreme than those released to the public, no subsequent investigations were held.

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By Shenonymous, April 10, 2010 at 6:18 am Link to this comment

Here is maybe a first that I agree with both ITW and Shingo about the
needless killing of people, anywhere!  More needs to be said about
that, but let’s not leave any oppressed group out.  It is only when all
minds understand by seeing the all-inclusive principles of human value
that is homogenous throughout humanity that the more local or
regional problems can be permanently solved. 

radson, on an abstract level I have to agree we are all interconnected. 
Like a Web of Life one might call it.  But then distinctions are lost and
the genetic and endemic problems that lead to atrocities are subject to
concealment not repair.  It is only through conscious effort of the
evolved mind that indiscriminate selfish impulses are subdued.  Do you
have a prophylactic to prevent the disease of self-serving violence?

ITW, why would more shameful treatment of Stalin’s USSR be in the
news today? 

What is being done about the US Apache pilots?  Who is investigating? 
Is it more iniquitous that they killed Reuter’s reporters?  Is a reporter’s
life worth more than any civilian?

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By Shingo, April 10, 2010 at 5:03 am Link to this comment

ITW,

Let’s hope there is more more new of the shameful treatment of Poles by Stalin’s USSR.  All countries should be held accountable for their crimes.

I’m hoping that the US Apache pilots are held accontable for what they did to those Reuter Reporters too.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 10, 2010 at 4:29 am Link to this comment

Shingo,
With the announcement of today’s terribly tragic news, I predict far more of the shameful treatment of Stalin’s USSR will be in the news today.

The Polish President was on his way to meet the Russian President to jointly commemorate the murder of 20,000 Polish officers executed on Stalin’s orders after the invasion of Poland by the USSR in 1939.

Chronological note: Nazi Germany didn’t declare war on the USSR until June 22, 1941.  Up through June 21st, the two nations were still functioning under the non-aggression pact of Aug 23, 1939.

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By Leefeller, April 9, 2010 at 9:07 pm Link to this comment

Australopithecus sediba is a most exciting and fun name for me, I find it one of my favorites for when ever I find the need to describe a Republican’s brain cavity, I automatically jump to Australopithecus, everyone knows Republicans are well known for their inability to use reason, clearly this has been validated by Sarah Palin and the Tea baggers, so it seems, Australopithecus is alive and well running the party of ........no!

Australopithecus is one of several words I have a close affinity to and find quite amusing, another one of my favorites is a word I learned in grammar school.  It seems when I was learning about the solar system and I have told this story before, but I will mention it again for posterity. For some reason I was assigned the planet Uranus, which at the time did not mean anything to me, though for some unknown reason to me, I liked the sound of Uranus, the name Uranus rolled from my lips,  so when Australopithecus was brought to my attention by a news article, I bonded in the same light as Uranus;  Australopithecus as Uranus will always be with me.

It is always fun to reminisce.

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By radson, April 9, 2010 at 7:23 pm Link to this comment

Shen
Just like the Planet and life itself ,we are all interconnected.
cheers

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By Shenonymous, April 9, 2010 at 6:56 pm Link to this comment

Shhh ITW, (I am whispering because I don’t want to appear to be too
oblique having just read omop’s post about Australopithecus sediba).

Is he believing rumors that the hominids (not huminids, but might that
not be a continuation of his tongue in his cheek?) spoke a dialect of
yeedish (what I call francoyiddish?)  Are we having fun yet?  The bones
found in 2008 in a cave north of Johannesburg, are said to be of a boy
between 9 and 12-years of age and a woman called middle-aged!
estimated at 30.  Now the curiosity of the matter is that the woman is
projected to have had a longevity of 60 years (LA Times article). Isn’t
that a bit long for a 2 million year-old human, female or not!?  That
was probably a silly question.  Most likely they were tree-dwellers, as
hypothesized from the extra long arms, the species nomenclature
Australiopithecus (means ‘southern ape’ and not so named due to some
relation to Australia.  Australia means Southern land derived from the
Latin australis, meaning ‘of the South,’ that is, terra australis.) 
Melbourne gets into the picture because the University of Melbourne
developed the equipment that more accurately dates cave sediments. 
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2010-
04/09/c_13243435.htm The rub is that there is some skepticism
about the identification, see: 
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?
storyId=125713226&sc=fb&cc=fp under skepticism.  For myself, even
if there is the possibility that it is not what is thought, it is all so cool
any which way we got it.  There was no mention about the larynx that
would have been necessary for language.  And a developed cerebrum,
left side for speech, would take a larger brain but the skull is very
small.  It is not clear whether the remains were sent to Melbourne
(highly unlikely) or the Melbourne academics sent to South Africa.

Some books, radson, are a never ending story.

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By radson, April 9, 2010 at 6:25 pm Link to this comment

So Shen has enough info to proceed with her book and
Omop is ,well ‘passing the Mop’.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 9, 2010 at 5:55 pm Link to this comment

Sadly the rot started during the 1967 war when Israel ignored the advice of Throdore Meron, who advised the Israeli government that settling on occupied territory was a violation of the 4th Geneva Convention.
**********************************************

Shingo: We may disagree about WHEN the rot started, but we don’t disagree that it started.

Nor, do I think we disagree that the ROTters are in power now.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 9, 2010 at 5:53 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry, April 9 at 6:35 pm #

She,

“Oh yeah, but there is one way to tell a Jew as long as they are not found in Israel, they speak Yiddish!  Don’t speak Yiddish? You ain’t no Jew!

I disagree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemba
*****************************************

Sheesh, PH! Can’t you tell irony?  I’m CERTAIN She is fully aware that a vast group of Sephardic Jews use Ladino as their Lingua Franca, not Yiddish. Only the Ashkanazim spoke Yiddish as their “Momme Loshen”.

I see Omop continues with his racist “jokes”.  Still waiting for him to add “88” to his sig.

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By omop, April 9, 2010 at 5:08 pm Link to this comment

With a doff of a mariner’s cap to Shingo’s ” all thise still clinging to their
fantasies” of burning bushes, fortune telling old texts and notarized new
testaments and deeded real state to those chosen to be the first good news
from Australia

CANBERRA, April 9, 2010—Australian scientists were behind a breakthrough
declaring that skeletal remains almost two million years old are a new species
of early man, dubbed Australopithecus sediba.

The announcement on Friday has excited the branch of science looking at the
development of early hominid species, The Canberra Times reports.

University of New South Wales scientist Andy Herries worked with fellow
geochronological experts in Melbourne and Cairns to establish the age of the
ancient remains at 1.78 to 1.95 million years.

“It’s perhaps the best example yet of a transitional species ... between small-
brained apes and larger-brained homo [erectus],” Dr Herries said of the newly
discovered species. “There is certainly a complete change in the way that it
walks, certainly more like modern humans.”

An examination of the skeletal remains reveals a species that had long arms,
like an ape, but short powerful hands and long legs enabling it to walk and
possibly even run like a modern-day human.

The pair of early hominids were both about 1.3 meters tall, they would have
weighed around 30 kilograms when they died, and their brains were around a
third the size of a human.

Dr Herries said the fossilized bones were discovered at an old gold mine site in
South Africa that was investigated as the result of some internet surfing.

The cave is inside the Cradle of Humankind World Heritage site, a 500sq km
area north-west of Johannesburg that is dotted with caves and has already
reaped some of the world’s most significant fossils which indicate the evolution
of man.

Rumors are that these huminids’s lingua franca may have been like yeedish but
with a French accent.

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By Shenonymous, April 9, 2010 at 3:52 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHennarie, I was quoting a criticism of Sand about the speaking
Yiddish.  I thought it was very funny.  The moles await their fate.

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By Shenonymous, April 9, 2010 at 3:47 pm Link to this comment

I detect a truce Shingo, and if I am right, I am happy for that.  There
was much angst from both of us.  I admit to being as scrappy as the
next guy!  Or goy.  The contemporary imbalance you seem to perceive
right now I see as temporary and will change as politics change and
they do change.  It is difficult for those to understand deeply who are
not as emotionally involved in the interactions of that part of the world,
and I would say that is the case for most Americans.  Not only am I
ignorant and I admit it, but I do molti molti research to try to catch up. 
Not one of my students can fathom what is going on either.  I have
about 90 students twice a week and we do talk about it some, though
politics is not the content of the class.  We get carried away and since I
try to engender that kind of thinking I let it go sometimes.  We can
always catch up on our syllabus without too much stress. Thinking is
thinking but orderly thinking is better and if one knows how to come
to informed conclusions, that is the point.  A bit of a digression there
but just to give a bit of ambience to my view of ordinary Americans. 

We have got to come to some rational view of the Middle East.  Most of
us were horrified at how GWB got this country involved in the Iraq war. 
We certainly don’t like being attacked so devastatingly by Al Qaeda, or a
Timothy McVey (a different stroke for a different kind of crazy folk)
either for that matter.  I am not sure where Obama is leading us.  It
seems at least on the face of it (prima facie) he has some plan and for
me I think this kind of change will be a slow and painful process.  Israel
has a long history.  So do the Arabs.  I think in this last year I’ve
learned more about that part of the world than I have in my entire
lifetime.  Of course I do not know a fraction of the intrigues but I do
know the Jews have been the most persecuted people the earth has
ever seen beginning with the Babylonians.  Their histories written by
them is not entirely invented.  And now for decades the Palestinian
people are oppressed.  Reasons are not clear.  Murkey at best.  It is
only clear to the respective sides. 

Primitive tribal peoples have always made war against other tribes.  It is
the law of the animals.  And I do not mean that in any negative way. 
Humans are what they are and change as they learn and accumulate
knowledge that they then can mesh together to make sense of the
world and other humans.  It is such a pity the killing must happen.  The
animosity seems to have to be there out of animal instinct.  Yes, I do
meddle when I feel there is an imbalance but it is to try to bring more
consciousness to the horridness we find ourselves in.  I have no other
intention and certainly no delusion of having a solution.

Navon far as I can see did in fact criticized Sand resoundingly.  But that
is my perspective from the reading and that is all I have.  If you see it
differently, then it goes that way.  I do know this, that one of the
Jewish friends I have detests Netanyahu and always has, he curses Bibi
every time we talk.  There are internal disagreements in Israel just as
there are between Fatah and Hamas.  But the truth of the matter is not
clear what goes on.

The Biblical account of the Jews is hotly contested, but most
archaeologists cannot verify a lot of what has been Jewish history. But
to use a bit of analogy, the same can be said of Arabs and Christians. 
There is more than a hot debate over who wrote the New Testament! 
The Moses story is far fetched.  I mean god in the form of a burning
bush?  We would have to be just as meticulous about Mohammed.  But
if anyone dares to question they are put on a to-be-murdered hit list. 
As I say, murky murky.  We wade through mud in our minds. 

Got to go right now.  I am having a war with moles.  It is a territorial
thing. And so it goes.

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By PatrickHenry, April 9, 2010 at 3:35 pm Link to this comment

She, 

“Oh yeah, but there is one way to tell a Jew as long as they are not found in Israel, they speak Yiddish!  Don’t speak Yiddish? You ain’t no Jew! 

I disagree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemba

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By Shingo, April 9, 2010 at 3:14 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

I obviously wasn’t talking abotu you, because as i said, I beleiev you are sincere about it because you accept what is required to bring abtou a political settlement.

Sadly the rot started during the 1967 war when Israel ignored the advice of Throdore Meron, who advised the Israeli government that settling on occupied territory was a violation of the 4th Geneva Convention.

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By Shingo, April 9, 2010 at 3:04 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

“I don’t mind your saying so, but only in my stiletto heels, Shingo.”

A beautiful women is always beautiful, because it comes from the inside, whether she wears high heels or flannel pyjamas with fluffy slippers (though that can be sexy too).
Zand certainly doesn’t assert that Palestinians were Arabs before they were Jews, though it begs the question at what point in time did Arabs themselves exist.

Nor does Zand assert that Ashkenazi Jews are not Jews.  What he argues, is that Judaism went through an evangelical religion that encouraged gentiles to convert.  The question of who is a real Jew or otherwise is a different matter entirely.  There are some right wing Zionists who argue that any child from a mixed marriage ceases to be Jewish.

The stories about Moses bringing Jews out of Egypt are myths.  There are no historical or archaeological records supporting it, other than the Bible. The patriarchs’ acts are legends, the Israelites did not sojourn in Egypt or make an exodus, they did not conquer the land. Neither is there any mention of the empire of David and Solomon, nor of the source of belief in the God of Israel.

Archaeologists have been excavating Palestine for nearly a century and fond no Kingdom of Israel.  What they did find was that the Israelites were never in Egypt, they never wandered in the desert, they didn’t conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. The monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom.

Of all the historical Egyptian documents researched, none mention the Israelites’ presence in Egypt and nor the events of the exodus. Many documents do mention the custom of nomadic shepherds to enter Egypt during periods of drought and hunger and to camp at the edges of the Nile Delta. However, this was not a solitary phenomenon: such events occurred frequently across thousands of years and were hardly exceptional.

Most historians today agree that at best, the stay in Egypt and the exodus occurred in a few families and that their experience became the became generalized and shared to fit the needs of theological ideology.

The archaeological findings blatantly contradict the biblical picture: the Canaanite cities were not “great,” were not fortified and did not have “sky-high walls.” The heroism of the conquerors, the few versus the many and the assistance of the God who fought for his people are a theological reconstruction lacking any factual basis.
While Zand’s book was controversial, his findings are not new. The theories are decades old, and are supported by a) the lack of archaeological evidence of any Jewish Kingdom, the exodus from Egypt and the conquest of Canaan, and b) the fact that 85% of Palestinians have Jewish ancestry.
With regard to Israel Bartal,  he supports Zand’s most important argument, albeit inadvertently.  Bartal agrees that “no historian of the Jewish national movement has ever really believed that the origins of the Jews are ethnically and biologically ‘pure.’ ” He noted that “important groups in the [Zionist] movement expressed reservations regarding this myth or denied it completely.”  Bartal essentially agrees that many Judaism did encourage conversion.  After all, how else could the Jewish population have avoided becoming an entirely inbred tribe?

Yes, Sand’s findings and conclusions are unorthodox, as were the sources he cited, but that’s hardly a problem given that the orthodox views are based on Biblical myths.  Galileo was considered unorthodox, but was he mistaken?

I would be curious to read Judt’s critique of Zand’s work, because that one statement, “Sand’s book is given the excuse of making a point if not truth” does not deny that it is true.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 9, 2010 at 2:54 pm Link to this comment

On the other hand, nothing iunfurates me more than reading someone claiming they suport a 2 state settlement, while insisting that the status quo (which makes a 2 state settlements impssible) be maintained.

**********************************

Yeah? Who is that?  I agree that BOTH sides have been doing their best over the years to prevent it, and now the balance is with the neo-Zionists running the government of Israel since that Yahoo, Netanyahu, and the most disgusting person to claim the mantle of Judaism, Avigdor Lieberman, came to power.

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By Shingo, April 9, 2010 at 2:32 pm Link to this comment

Shen,

“Emmanuel Navon.  His
scholarship could give Sand a lesson in reality.”
Hardly.  From your excerpts, there is nothing that Navon proposes that contradicts Zand’s findings.

Zand does not dispute that the Hebrews invaded the Canaanite population who had been in the Palestine region for centuries. 

With regard to my exchange with Sawyer and Calabaste, I came across 2 contributors who were themselves respectful to begin with, and who demonstrated some well informed ideas.  I should admit that I took out a great deal of my frustration and disgust that that I had towards GRYN on you, and I should take responsibility for things getting out of hand and I apologise for that.  Still this idea of balance is misleading, because it implies that the conflict is between equal partied, sharing equal responsibility and with the equally divided means of resolving the crisis, and clearly, that is not the case.

As you have seen, ITW and I do get headed in our exchangesm, but we established a trust with one another a while back and I regard ITW as honest and sincere.  On the other hand, nothing iunfurates me more than reading someone claiming they suport a 2 state settlement, while insisting that the status quo (which makes a 2 state settlements impssible) be maintained.

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By Shenonymous, April 9, 2010 at 9:03 am Link to this comment

“Thus sayeth the little vixen (using f’ for the f word does not make
me foul mouthed, just foul thinking!)  But I’ve been known to be quite
foul mouthed as well!”
That sounds quite sexy coming from you Shen, (the foul thinking part) 
if you don’t mind me saying.   I’m sure you’re a foxy lady.

I don’t mind your saying so, but only in my stiletto heels, Shingo. 

I know a few Muslims, not quite well, but work with one and others
known through academia, and they are not killing anyone for any
reason.  I had a student assistant who was Iranian but preferred to call
herself Persian, she was a happy and bright young woman who finally
got a well-deserved prestigious job in academic administration.  A
Muslim, she and her family did not kill any Jews nor wanted to as there
were many Jews in our department.  Some of her best friends were
Jewish

Yup, the I/P conflict is a “family feud,” as the Jews were in the Sinai for
millennia.  They were considered Palestine Jews just as the Arabs were
considered Palestine Arabs. All were considered Semitic tribes.  But you
say Zand’s (Sand’s) theory that Palestinians are ancient Jews who were
ancient Arabs?  Pre-Egyptian slaves nomads I would agree, Arabs?  I do
not. 

Isn’t that the same Sand who thinks the Ashkenazi Jews are not Jews? 
Way…elll, if one were playing find words within a word, besides ash,
you could find nazi in Ashkenazi.  Just in case any one wants to play a
Nazi game.  Isn’t that the same French Professor of history and the
world of cinema who tries to prove there are no Jews anywhere?  Yup,
he solves the Jewish problem neatly.  There just ain’t none. That is
stupendous.

The Romans did not exile Jews, those Jewish nomads of the Sinai were
not subject oppressed of the Babylonians, no Spanish Jews?  Well,
weren’t the latter until 6th century BC and Dahia al-Kahina.  Oh yeah,
but there is one way to tell a Jew as long as they are not found in
Israel, they speak Yiddish!  Don’t speak Yiddish? You ain’t no Jew! 

Egyptian slaves of four hundred years that Moses chartered out to the
Sinai, naw they weren’t Jews!  Well, they weren’t Jews until Moses got
those 10 commandments, right?  Hebrews?  Maybe, but not Jews! 

There are a few dangling questions.  In an interview, Sand admitted he
dealt with periods he had never researched before, having depended on
studies that present unorthodox views of the origins of the Jews. 
Sloppy academically, meaning unsound research, even by another anti-
Zionist Jew historian (Tony Judt), Sand’s book is given the excuse of
making a point if not truth.  Now what kind of veritability is that?  I can
see why you do not provide reliable sources, Shingo.  Haaretz (your
favorite resource) prints a critique by Israel Bartal, Inventing an
invention where he discredits Sands as writing a book of pure fiction. 
Now one would expect a self-loving Jew to defend his ethnicity, just as
any person would:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/999386.html

Bartel gives equal argument if not infinitely better that “It was not the
Zionist education to which I, as an Israeli teenager, was exposed that
tried to make me forget the fact that the members of gentile tribes
converted to Judaism in the Khazar Kingdom; instead, it is the author
of this book about the “invention of the Jewish people” who has
invented an ethno-biological Zionist historiography.”
  Bartel
continues…”...Like him, I am not one of those who support the
injustices committed by a number of Israeli government agencies
against minority groups in this country in the name of arguments
pretending to represent “historical values.” However, critical readers of
Sand’s study must not overlook the intellectual superficiality and the
twisting of the rules governing the work of professional historians that
result when ideology and methodology are mixed.”
  Now who should
one believe?

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By Shenonymous, April 9, 2010 at 8:52 am Link to this comment

It is not a simple matter.  There are several points of view.  The I/P
“solution problem” from a Jew’s (Zionista) point of view, is excellently
explained in A Plight Among the Nations: Israel’s Foreign Policy
Between Nationalism and Realism
- Emmanuel Navon.  His
scholarship could give Sand a lesson in reality. 

History fact according to most historians: The primitive Hebrews were
originally a nomadic tribe that roamed the Sinai along with other
Semitic Arab tribes.  They were part of the hordes of people mostly of
Aramean ancestry.  Migrants invading the Canaanite population who
had been in the Palestine region for centuries. 

For ITW: you might want to read, “Are They Jews or Asians? A
Cautionary Tale”
about Mountain Jewish Ethnography by Sascha L.
Goluboff, Slavic Review, Vol. 63, No. 1 (Spring, 2004), pp. 113-140,
Published by: The American Association for the Advancement of Slavic
Studies just for the halibut.

I do want to say Shingo, I am most impressed that you are indeed able
to present an argument in a calm and informative manner as I read
your comments to Calabashe and tom sawyer on another forum
regarding the recent Fatah/Hamas debate.  I do not know whether or
not you present factual information, nor the other chaps.  But the fact
that you can actually write comments sans name-calling and
denigration speaks well of you and I have filed it away as when you do
that you are simply targeting specific persons to exhibit an egotistical
bullying superiority, as you note, “for entertainment.” I kind of regard
that as a sick kind of entertainment, but that is my assessment and
does not reflect the sentiments of the website!  I am using this new
plane of discussion to learn a great deal and as a platform to further
my understanding of the events of the Middle East. 

The fact that I am your favorite target of those moments of extreme
vituperation sits fine with me.  I don’t mind being in your cross-hairs.  I
have come to expect from my truly centrist position that I often
engender such hatred.  I do not have any loyalties to any country other
than my own, the USA.  The fact that I entered into any defense of
Israel was my perception that there was an incredible imbalance of
denigration and inordinate name-calling going on when I stumbled
onto this forum when rational discussion was the imperative if any
progress were to be made to solve the horrid situation in the Middle
East regarding Israel and the Palestinians.  This position of mine you
may denigrate again, as I expect you will.  But I will continue to watch
any forward movement in the dialogue between Calabashe, tom sawyer,
you, ITW, and a few others.  If dialogue were of the same caliber
between you, and the opposing partisans GRYM, radson, Liquor Store
Larry, then we would have something valuable from this forum, all of
us.  Yes, they too would have to desist in their name calling and get to
real discourse.

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By Leefeller, April 9, 2010 at 7:55 am Link to this comment

Apparently the contingent has a proclivity to discuss and call names of other posters on a regular basis. Inherent use of stereotyping or bigotry is used to label any person who does not profusely agree with contingent comments or agenda,  and usually leads them to the famous name shouting…....  ” Zionist”, a well worn contingent, tactless procedure. 

In all fairness, I will directly ask Larry,..... are you a Zionist? Never the less a “neo-one”? Plus, since I have been called a Zionist several times now and a Zionist has been defined by the contingent, as anyone who does not agree with them.  I ask Larry; would you define Zionist from your point of view?

As a card carrying bigot, my capability to spot bigotry with the clarity and the tactile feeling of an octopus is little known in few circles.

So, I may have discovered some of Larry’s comments possibly bigoted, though I also found them quite humorous, but I used to find humor in “Amos and Andy”?

Larry, I watched the video of Shingles friend. I found myself asking if the translation could be trusted as accurate, far as I know Shingles Friend could have been selling a camel?

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By omop, April 9, 2010 at 6:57 am Link to this comment

By Robert, April 8 at 9:44 pm #

Major Jewish American Organizations Defend Israel’s Humiliation of America

Should non-dual Israeli/American citizens, given Petras’s commentary [which is
an excellent take of the reality], now consider that Obama will be getting his
orders from AIPAC/THE LIEBERMANS, JOE AND AVIGDOR and order Gen.
Petraues accordingly?

The betting in Tel Aviv is Barak O is a one termer and come 1012 will be
replaced with either Congresswoman Jane Harman (D) from California and one
time accused of being a go between Congress and AIPAC. Or Congresswoman
Deborah Wasserman-Schultz (D) from Florida who is on record as stating to
her constituents:-

      “I want to be able to maximize my ability to advance the interests of
Israel, and there are different organizations doing that. AIPAC is one of them,
and I’m committed to them. J Street has worthy goals as well. The more
advocates for Israel in America, the better.”

The above is anticipatory if the Republicans follow through on Newt Gingrich;s
advice and nominate Sarah Palin for President as long as she wears the dual
flags of Israel and the US on her lapel.

Come to think of it given Mr. Petras’s conclusions the 300 million or so
americans should before they vote find out who AIPAC endorses just so they do
not get tagged with being “antisemitic”.

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By Robert, April 9, 2010 at 6:12 am Link to this comment

Yediot’s Barnea: Netanyahu asks Wiesel to intervene with Obama

04.04.2010 | Coteret

“Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu knows that he is in deep trouble at the White House. This weekend he made an interesting effort to find ways into Barack Obama’s heart. The author Elie Wiesel, in Israel for the holiday, received a call from the Prime Minister’s Office asking that he meet urgently with Netanyahu. On Friday afternoon Wiesel arrived at Netanyahu’s Ceasarea home.

Obama venerates Wiesel, a Holocaust survivor and Nobel laureate. He sees in him a role model for the struggle for human rights. When Obama, on his way back from the Cairo University speech, decided to visit the Buchenwald concentration camp, he asked Wiesel to accompany him and give the keynote speech at the on site ceremony. Obama asked that he join him on the Air Force One flight to Washington.

During the flight, Wiesel read the text of Obama’s Cairo speech and remarked that there was no room for comparison of Jewish suffering during the Holocaust and Palestinian suffering. Obama was convinced and rectified the message in a speech he gave after returning to the US.

This is the background for the request that Wiesel meet Obama as soon as possible, in order to defend the Prime Minister and convince the President that he is mistaken in his appraisal of the motivations and actions of Netanyahu and his government.

Wiesel listened and told Netanyahu that he is scheduled to meet the President for lunch soon and he will use the opportunity to expand on the issues raised by the Prime Minister.”


http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/send-in-the-clown/

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By Shingo, April 9, 2010 at 1:27 am Link to this comment

IT’S,

I would never consider you in the sane catergory as LSL. I’ve said many times that it’s
people like you that make Zionism look good. In spite of our heated exchanges, I have
the highest respect for you.

Returning LSL’s fire is just entertainment.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 9, 2010 at 12:57 am Link to this comment

Shingo, April 9 at 1:03 am #

“This article should be entitled “Israel Crackdown Puts Suicidal Jews on the Spot” - Hillary and Biden are a disgrace to America and are the Neville Chamberlains of their era.”

Translation:  A message to all Zionist shills out there.  Whenever Israel is exposed as a criminal terrorist state,  any world leader calls for Israel to behave like a civilized society, always invoke he memory of Neville Chamberlain.

All Jews who don’t fall into line with the fascists in Israel are self hating Jews.

“Real Americans support their allies, cowards kiss the A-rabs asses!”

Translation: Real Americans put Israel’s interests before America. Tell me LSL, is General David Patreaus a real American.
***********************************************

Shingo, LSL is one of Calabashe’s “neo-Zionists” as opposed to someone like myself, or Shenonymous (despite your absurd hatred of her).

Why bite?

Unlike LSL, I happen to think the Neo-Zs are the MOST dangerous thing, internally, for Israeli security, and consequently, American security.

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By Shingo, April 8, 2010 at 10:03 pm Link to this comment

“This article should be entitled “Israel Crackdown Puts Suicidal Jews on the Spot” - Hillary and Biden are a disgrace to America and are the Neville Chamberlains of their era.”

Translation:  A message to all Zionist shills out there.  Whenever Israel is exposed as a criminal terrorist state,  any world leader calls for Israel to behave like a civilized society, always invoke he memory of Neville Chamberlain.

All Jews who don’t fall into line with the fascists in Israel are self hating Jews.

“Real Americans support their allies, cowards kiss the A-rabs asses!”

Translation: Real Americans put Israel’s interests before America. Tell me LSL, is General David Patreaus a real American.

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By Liquor Store Larry, April 8, 2010 at 9:04 pm Link to this comment

This article should be entitled “Israel Crackdown Puts Suicidal Jews on the Spot” - Hillary and Biden are a disgrace to America and are the Neville Chamberlains of their era. Real Americans support their allies, cowards kiss the A-rabs asses!

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By Robert, April 8, 2010 at 8:01 pm Link to this comment

By Leefeller, April 8 at 10:32 pm #

Hey, Robert, thanks for posting the truth and nothing but the truth, since you only post the truth, one must be in awe to how much truth can be confined in so small a space, which in itself is a unique feat, by the way Robert is your truth the same as fact, I do not want to be confused for the facts should be the same as the truth or should they be different?

Now that I know the truth and nothing but the truth, I feel so much better, knowing facts may never get in the way of truth, I love the spitting truth.

Thanks Robert for posting nothing but the truth, one dost get tired of hearing the untruth for it seems only Robert has the truth!

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey weefeller...Glad to see that you can still crawl out of your gofer prairie tunnels. You say the cutest things man…its amazing how you come up with this best stuff! BTW, have you checked with your central office out there in Texas?

weefeller…you are a fireball man…and your one person spectator stage is lit up! Its all for that phony “lone bigot” you are perhaps entertaining…all of it!

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By Leefeller, April 8, 2010 at 7:32 pm Link to this comment

Hey, Robert, thanks for posting the truth and nothing but the truth, since you only post the truth, one must be in awe to how much truth can be confined in so small a space, which in itself is a unique feat, by the way Robert is your truth the same as fact, I do not want to be confused for the facts should be the same as the truth or should they be different? 

Now that I know the truth and nothing but the truth, I feel so much better, knowing facts may never get in the way of truth, I love the spitting truth.

Thanks Robert for posting nothing but the truth, one dost get tired of hearing the untruth for it seems only Robert has the truth!

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By Inherit The Wind, April 8, 2010 at 7:30 pm Link to this comment

Yeah, we’re now far enough off the first page for Robert to start posting with dogged determination.  He should hit his peak around page 15.

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By Robert, April 8, 2010 at 6:44 pm Link to this comment

Major Jewish American Organizations Defend Israel’s Humiliation of America

By James Petras


“The Government of Israel has insulted the Vice President of the United States, and spat in the face of the President ... they wiped the spit off their faces and smiled politely ... as the saying goes: when you spit in the face of a weakling, he pretends that it is raining” Uri Avnery Israeli Jewish journalist 13/3/2010.

We (Israel) possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets ... most European capitals are targets of our air force ... the Palestinians should all be deported. Two years ago, only 7 or 8 per cent of Israelis were of the opinion that this would be the best solution, two months ago, (January 2010), it was 33 percent and now according to a Gallup poll, the figure is 44 percent”. Martin Van Crevel Israeli, professor of military history at Hebrew University at Jerusalem and top adviser to the Israeli Armed Forces, March 2, 2010.


Introduction

“April 07, 2010 “Information Clearing House” -When Israel announced a major new Jews-only building project of 1600 homes in occupied East Jerusalem, it was not only “spitting in the face” of visiting Vice President Biden, it was demonstrating its power to humiliate America and Americans. Netanyahu was sending a message to world: Israel backed by its billionaire-financed Presidents of the 51 Major American Jewish Organizations, leads the US by the nose. The Jewish State can make an agreement with the White House one day and revoke it the next (with characteristic arrogance), US public opinion be damned. No sooner did the Obama Administration react to this most public show of impudence with Biden privately telling the Israeli Prime Minister that, “What you’re doing here undermines the security of our troops who are fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. That endangers us and it endangers regional peace.”, than Netanyahu openly called on the “American Jewish community” (the major Zionist organizations) to come to the defense of Israel and its claim on all of Jerusalem. And respond they did: turning the insulted victim (America) into the bully and blaming the US, not the Israeli government, for the “crisis” and for the breakdown of Israel’s agreement not to expand colonial settlements on occupied Palestinian land. As we shall describe, the entire Zionist power configuration in the United States (with a few notable exceptions) defended Israel’s effrontery and condemned any attempt by the US government to peacefully resolve a conflict, which threatened US lives, economic interests and prestige. This just confirmed world public opinion, which sees an American electorate willing to be humiliated by this economically insignificant state.”

Can the ZPC be defeated? They are the “most powerful lobby in Washington”, to whom Presidents, Administration officials, Generals and Congress people must submit or risk having their careers ruined and being ousted from public office. Meanwhile,outside of the United States, the international community openly despises Israel as a brutal, racist colonial state, a war criminal and chronic violator of human rights and international law. The Middle East Quartet, made up of the United States, the European Union, Russia and the United Nations, has condemned Israel’s plan to build another 1,600 homes exclusively for Jewish extremist settlers in Arab East Jerusalem. The Quartet demanded “the speedy creation of a Palestinian state and the end to provocative actions”. But the ‘Quartet’ is powerless to stop Israeli plans. The Presidents of the Major American Jewish Organizations tell their followers that global “anti-Semitism” motivates the ‘Quartet’. The huge AIPAC “Hail Israel” Conference in Washington D.C. in late March celebrated the triumph of unfettered Israeli expansionism.”


~~~~~~~~~

Click on link for the rest:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25162.htm

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By Inherit The Wind, April 8, 2010 at 5:08 pm Link to this comment

omop:

“Better get real medical attention asap. “

I’ll bet YOUR definition of “medical attention” involves showers.

When are you finally coming out of your neo-nazi closet?

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By omop, April 8, 2010 at 3:11 pm Link to this comment

. ITW.

  Your assigned number would be “zilch”. Still your antics reflects (the Shekhinah
of the Kabbalist) who is some day supposed to give birth to the Messiah. Thus
the whole of your people are indeed suffering from a “nervous pregnancy” mode
or is it motto, not unlike that found in nervous, hysterical women.

  Karl Kraus, the Austrian Jewish journalist who did not agree with Freud, wrote
sarcastically: “Psychoanalysis is the mental illness of which it claims to be the
cure.” But he added that the right and the best formula can be stated in ten
words: “Judaism is the disease that psychoanalysis is meant to cure.”

  Better get real medical attention asap.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 8, 2010 at 2:42 pm Link to this comment

I may argue with Shingo, vehmently, but you, OMOP, are clearly an “88"er who, sooner or later will slip and tell us Hitler was misunderstood and maligned.

Sooner or later. “88” is your motto.

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By omop, April 8, 2010 at 8:45 am Link to this comment

Var spanish inquisition the 306 Million non dual loyalties American is under
REAL CONTROL.


The Zionists and dual citizen Americans have finally told their financier and
military supporter to go to HELL and rightfully so since non dual citizen
Americans and non zionists are in plain English colonized and directed by a
small, extremist and militarist ‘ally’ which operates through domestic proxies,
who, under any other circumstance, would be openly denounced as traitors.


A PAC and/or PACs that are the “most powerful lobby in Washington”, to whom
Presidents, Administration officials, Generals and Congress people must submit
or risk having their careers ruined and being ousted from public office.

Meanwhile,outside of the United States, the international community openly
despises Israel as a brutal, racist colonial state, a war criminal and chronic
violator of human rights and international law.

As JP writes.

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By Leefeller, April 8, 2010 at 7:41 am Link to this comment

This is so much fun!  I have learned what happened in 1968 is old hat and has nothing to do with anything, and the then I learned the Spanish Inquisition is still happening and is most relevant from the same person?

Seems kind of confusing, but if one takes a couple of Tequilas and reads the book “How to win arguments by insulting peoples intelligence” it begins to make some sense!

1K is just around the corner, just like peace!

Resolve is so much much closer, I can feel it in me bones, this oozing politeness going around, especially now that the sexism and bigotry have dissipated with the wave of a magic wand!

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By omop, April 8, 2010 at 7:20 am Link to this comment

ITS

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH YOU"LL. ITS BEEN GOING ON TOO LONG.

IT ALL STARTED WHEN THEY EXITED EGYPT.

THEN CAME THE CHOOSSING OF BARNABAS INSTEAD OF .........

ALONG LATER CAME THE SPANISH INQUISITION, THE MERCHANT OF
VENICE,THE POGROMS, THE NAZIS, THE COMMUNISTS, THE MUSLIM/JIHADISTS AND DUAL CITIZENSHIPS BY AIPAC.
AND AT PRESENT QUESTIONINGS BY THEIR ONLY ALLY.

TIME TO STOP.

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By Shingo, April 8, 2010 at 6:20 am Link to this comment

“Are you saying the Spaniards are still killing people?”

No, simply that there is nothing new under the sun when it comes to religious extremists.  I know a few Muslims quite well and they don’t seem to be killing anyone for rejecting Islam.

Yes I did know that Jews joined Islam, in fact, Tel Aviv University scholar Shlomo Zand has written a book “When and How Was the Jewish People Invented”  which documents how the Palestinians of today are descendents of the ancient Hebrews who remained after the Roman wars and converted to Islam.

That explains why 85% of Palestinians have Jewish ancestry.

That’s the real tragedy, that the I/P conflict really comes down to a family feud.

“Once again you give me opportunity to show the brutality of Islam. http://www.iheu.org/node/1540
Thank you again.”

You’re welcome.  Would me to show you the brutality of Israel?

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/deutschland-uber-alles/

“Thus sayeth the little vixen (using f’ for the f word does not make me foul mouthed, just foul thinking!)  But I’ve been known to be quite foul mouthed as well!”

That sounds quite sexy coming from you Shen, (the foul thinking part)  if you don’t mind me saying. wink  I’m sure you’re a foxy lady.

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By Shingo, April 8, 2010 at 6:09 am Link to this comment

ITW,

Of course the USSR should NOT have been allowed to take Polish land. When did I ever say otherwise?

“And you should stop the Big Lie that the ‘67 war was an unprovoked act of aggression by Israel.”

I guess General Mattityahu Peled, Yitzak Rabin and Menachem Begin are liars then are they ITW?

“I remember Egypt and Syria building up forces on Israel’s border.”

Yes, and so does Menachem Begin who said:
“The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.”

“ Your cherry-picking of selective quotes doesn’t change that, nor does it change Nasser’s statements that Israel was going to be destroyed.”

Yitzak Rabin says otherwise.

“I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it.”

General Mattityahu Peled, a member of Israel’s general staff in 1967, opined that “the thesis according to which the danger of genocide weighed on us in June 1967, and that Israel struggled for its physical existence is only a bluff born and developed after the war.”

“And you can stop the fiction that the ‘73 war was somehow JUSTIFIED—Egypt and Syria attacked on Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish Religion as a clear-cut attack on Judaism itself, not just Israel.”

Firstly, I never said it was justified, certainly no more than the 1967 war was, but it was inevitable. Israel only had themselves to blame in 1971 for being stupid enough to take Henry Kissinger’s advice and rejected the offer of a full peace treaty by President Sadat of Egypt. 

BTW.  Weren’t you the guy who was talking tough about how the loser doesn’t get to dictate terms?  Who’s applying double standards now?

“Israel sees mounting forces and attacks when it’s strategically sound to do so.  Bad!!  Egypt and Syria attack WHEN THERE IS NO THREAT TO THEM, but that’s OK with you.”

The only reason the 1973 war took place was because the 1967 took place and the reason the 1967 war took place is because Israel wanted more territory.

If Israel simply wanted to defeat the Egyptian and Jordanian armies, they could have without taking land.

End of story.

Again, wasn’t it you that argued that to the victor go the spoils, and that no state should expect to be left in peace right? The Egyptians wanted their land back and so they tried to take it back.  You didn’t seem to mind that Israel did it. 

“ There is NO circumstance under which you can see Israel as a Jewish state being allowed to exist.”

What is it with you Zionists?  As few posts ago, we both agreed as to the terms.  Israel can become one big jelly wrestling ring for all I care, so long as they do it within the 1967 borders.

“But you refuse to acknowledge what is necessary for peace: Israel, too, must be secure.”

Sure. So how many more nukes and F-16s do you propose the US needs to send over before Israel feels secure?

“And security doesn’t come from promises by neighbors not to attack. That’s just friggin’ naive.”

Right, but it’s a start is it not?  The trouble with you Zionists is you hang your hat on every inflammatory word Hamas or Iran or any other bloviating hot head in the ME utters as gospel, but when they turn around and say something reasonable, you say they can’t be trusted.

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By Shingo, April 8, 2010 at 5:45 am Link to this comment

Exposing he lies of GRYM

part 1 of 2

“as far as I can tell in all of human history, that has been expected to cede things AFTER it has been attacked and won a battle”

False. 

Israel started the 1967 war. The 1948 borders were referred to as the borders of Lamentation because they did not include Jerusalem or the rest of Transjordan. Ben Gurion stated from the very beginning that:

“The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan. One does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today—but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concerns of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them.” Ben-Gurion, Source: P. 53, “The Birth of Israel, 1987” Simha Flapan

As Moshe Dayan states, the Golan was seized because of the desires of the Levi Eshkol wanted the fertile land for Israel.

“Israel has repeatedly been expected to do what no other nation has been able or willing.”

Really?
So no other state has accepted the NPT, while Israle rejects it?
No other state has been force to comply with UN Resolutions, while Israel laughs at them?
No otehr state has been found in breach of internationa law by the Intenational Court of Justice?

“I repeat myself:  The West Bank and Gaza is surrounded by some of the wealthiest per capita nations on earth.”

Repeat it all you like.  The majority of the world’s Jewish population refuses to live in Israel because Israel cannot provide them the lifestyle they enjoy in the West and unlike the Palestinians, most of Israel’s population are immigrants.

The Palestinians have no desire to immigrate out of these Palestine.

“It is Israel and the U.S. who has built the sewage and electricity infrastructure in the entire area.  Not the Arab world.”

Only in the areas where Israeli settlements exist, otherwise, Israel have generally bombed what they didn’t need.

“It is the U.S. and Israel who continually call on others to help build industry and trade in the, so-called, occupied areas.”

Rubbish.  The areas are occupied and all the Arab world has poured most of the money into those developments.

“When Israel left Gaza it left behind a multi-million dollar nursery fully intact.”

This was debunked by 2 of Israel’s leading historians and journalists, Idith Zertal and Akiva Eldar in their comprehensive scholarly history of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories, entitled “Lords of the Land”. 

This is what it says about Israel’s withdraw from Gaza:

“After Israel withdrew it’s forces from Gaza, in August 2005, the ruined territory was not released for even a single day from Israel’s military grip, or from the price of the occupation that the inhabitants pay every day. Israel left behind scotched earth, devastated services, and people with nearly a present or a future. The Jewish settlements were destroyed in an ungenerous move by an unenlightened occupier, which in fact continues to control the territory and kill and harass it’s inhabitants, by means of it’s formidable military might.”

This does not include the fact that Israel fired over 7,700 shells into Gaza from September 2005 to May of he following year.

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By Shingo, April 8, 2010 at 5:44 am Link to this comment

Exposing he lies of GRYM

part 2 of 2

“ Hamas quickly destroyed the entire facility AND, the very day Israel left, Hamas began firing rockets into Israel proper. - So much for “Land for Peace”.”

False again:

From August 2004, Hamas observed a unilateral ceasefire with Israel.

In 2005 Hamas signed the Cairo Declaration of 2005 and the National.
Hamas won the election and continued to observe the unilateral ceasefire until Israel attacked Gaza in June 2006 killing 220 civilians.

“And I make this point again.  A Palestinian can walk down any street in Israel and go unmolested.”

Really?

The NY Times just reported about Palestinian protests, where Israeli troops have responded with stun grenades, rubber bullets, tear gas and arrests.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/world/middleeast/07westbank.html?ref=todayspaper

B’tselem reported that Israeli troops used live rounds and killed 2 Palestinians.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8580150.stm

As I have demonstrated once again, you are a pathological and compulsive liar who has no regard for the truth.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 8, 2010 at 5:31 am Link to this comment

Shingo, you just keep twisting yourself in knots.

So…by your logic, the USSR should NOT have been allowed to take Polish land.  After all, Poland wasn’t the aggressor but Russia stole its eastern third anyway.

See? Rules for Israel ARE different.

And you should stop the Big Lie that the ‘67 war was an unprovoked act of aggression by Israel.  I remember Egypt and Syria building up forces on Israel’s border.  Your cherry-picking of selective quotes doesn’t change that, nor does it change Nasser’s statements that Israel was going to be destroyed.

And you can stop the fiction that the ‘73 war was somehow JUSTIFIED—Egypt and Syria attacked on Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish Religion as a clear-cut attack on Judaism itself, not just Israel.

See? Double standard again. Israel sees mounting forces and attacks when it’s strategically sound to do so.  Bad!! 
Egypt and Syria attack WHEN THERE IS NO THREAT TO THEM, but that’s OK with you.

Double-standard. Hypocrisy.

You keep dodging around one clear inference: There is NO circumstance under which you can see Israel as a Jewish state being allowed to exist.

Attacking the disgusting policies of the neo-Zionists is, of course, where we agree. Going back to ‘82 and Sharon using a surrogate to massacre Muslims has been a major factor in losing Israel the High Moral Ground.

But you refuse to acknowledge what is necessary for peace: Israel, too, must be secure.  And security doesn’t come from promises by neighbors not to attack. That’s just friggin’ naive. 

It comes from secure borders and is followed by economic relations that benefit BOTH sides.  I have NO doubt that Palestinians and Lebanese can once again re-establish themselves as the premier thinkers, philosophers and entrepreneurs in the Arab world, where Beirut was one of the shining lights of the world.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 8, 2010 at 4:53 am Link to this comment

Are you saying the Spaniards are still killing people?  I thought the
Spanish Inquisition started in late 15th century and ended in the 1834,
FYI: the 19th century (bet you didn’t know that!).  5 Yups.  This is the
21st century, but the dogma of Islam practices continues from its 7th
century mentality.  Did you know that there is apostasy in Judaism
dating from 1106, the first apostate who wrote against the Jewish creed
was Moses Sephardi also known as Petrus Alfonsi.  He wrote against
both Jewish and Mohammedan doctrines (if you prefer the entire title in
Latin, I can provide that).  But there were quite a few Jewish apostates. 
If you are interested check out the Jewish Encyclopedia.  Why even
some Jews joined Islam!  Bet you didn’t know that!  And held prominent
positions. And Jews joined Catholicism as well.  Much under the duress
of the fear of execution from both religions. 

However, today, 21st century, in the enlightened tribes of Israel, 
“Sanctions against apostasy in Judaism today include the Orthodox
tradition of shunning a person who leaves the faith, in which the
parents formally mourn their lost child and treat him or her as dead.
Apostates in the State of Israel are forbidden to marry other Jews.”

Once again you give me opportunity to show the brutality of Islam.
http://www.iheu.org/node/1540
Thank you again.

http://www.newstatesman.com/200302170039
“Islam is a religion that devours all that is most humane and open-
minded.” How has this happened? Ziauddin Sardar on the delusion and
intolerance of his fellow believers

Thus sayeth the little vixen (using f’ for the f word does not make me
foul mouthed, just foul thinking!)  But I’ve been known to be quite foul
mouthed as well!

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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, April 8, 2010 at 4:42 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind, “In the middle.  But that’s
where the facts and logic have stuck me.
Getting fired upon by both sides.”

-

The most interesting thing in my mind about
your last reply is that I have not “fired upon”
you at all here.  In fact I have agreed with
you.

I particularly agree with you in that Israel
seems to be the only nation, as far as I can
tell in all of human history, that has been
expected to cede things AFTER it has been attacked and won a battle. - In this case several battles.

There ARE people who want to believe that they
live in a world they desire to imagine.  Then
there is the actual world of human beings.

Israel has repeatedly been expected to do what
no other nation has been able or willing.  And,
when they do not, the Jewish state is widely condemned for it.  It is a glaring dichotomy.

-

I repeat myself:  The West Bank and Gaza is surrounded by some of the wealthiest per capita nations on earth.  Arab nations which claim to have the Palestinian people’s best interest at heart, however, after many decades they absolutely refuse to allow any Palestinian to immigrate out of these areas -effectively locking them into their horrendous poverty- while refusing to build hospitals, schools, commerce centers or civic centers.

It is Israel and the U.S. who has built the sewage and electricity infrastructure in the entire area.  Not the Arab world.  It is the U.S. who sends the bulk of medicine and text books to the Palestinian.  Not the Arab world.  It is the U.S. and Israel who continually call on others to help build industry and trade in the, so-called, occupied areas.  Not the Arab world.

When Israel left Gaza it left behind a multi-million dollar nursery fully intact.  Hamas quickly destroyed the entire facility AND, the very day Israel left, Hamas began firing rockets into Israel proper. - So much for “Land for Peace”.

And I make this point again.  A Palestinian can walk down any street in Israel and go unmolested.  Not so for an Israeli in the West Bank or Gaza.  In these areas a Jew will quickly find him or herself without a head. - Some like to deny this to be true.  Those would be the blind and naive fools who enjoy believing they have “Humanitarian Justice” on their minds.

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By Shingo, April 8, 2010 at 1:22 am Link to this comment

Shen,

You’re becoming quote the fouled mouthed little vixen aren’t you?  I am obviously pushing a few buttons, seeing as you wasted a few hundred words sounding off.
Thanks, I needed the comic relief.
 
Yes you are a Zionist and even worse, you’re a lazy, ignorant, dishonest, and as it turns out, a very angry one. The worst kind.

“Islam is the only religion in the world that will kill those born into Islam who choose not to follow Allah.  That is the imbalance that exists.”

Really?  So you never heard of he Spanish Inquisition then? That’s not surprising, but you can find it on Wikipeia is you’re interested.

“http://arabsforisrael.blogspot.com/2009/02/2who-are-we_09.html”

Yes, I know how fond you are of this hilarious and little site. Hey look, Oh look, I found a web site of Jews who hate Israel.  They say that traditional Jews are not Zionists and even talk about the brutal Zionist Role in the Holocaust

Wow, I fond some Jews who think Israel sucks.  It must be true then right Shen!

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

“I am first and foremost a humanitarian who is obsessed with justice and equality!”

Of course you are Shen and you proved it by demonstrating that the death of one Thai individual is more of an outrage than the murder of 4 Palestinians.

“Yes, Israel’s existence is a reality and its continued existence is not incumbent upon the Arab

world to exist.  It is not a right, it is fact.”

Oh boy, I think it’s time to lay of the prozak Shen.  On one hand you claim to support Israel’s right to exist, and on the other, you claim that it’s not a right but a fact.
Ooops.

Excuse me while I wife the tars of laughter from my eyes.
“Another fact is that Israel decides whether who it suspects are its enemy may or may not have
arms within its borders.”

I see.  Um, in case you hadn’t noticed, Gaza is not within its borders.  Evidently, you’ve never come across a map of the region.  I understand.  You’re probably one of these people who were quizzed about who the US should invade next and when asked to point out Iran, picked Australia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7FNsNEetAo

Promise not to change Shen. You make the tea baggers looks like sophisticates.

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By Shingo, April 8, 2010 at 12:59 am Link to this comment

ITW,

If you’re going to use the law of the jungle rationale then you’re playing with fire ITW, because teh implications are that land on which Israel sits does not belong to anyone and is available to anyone with the will and means to wrestle it from it’s current in habitats.

Is that the kind of world you want to see?  One where big powerful states can gobble other states or seize land at will, with fire-power being the one claim to legitimacy?
And having proposed this, you claim that you’re defending atrocities, war crimes or crimes against humanity?  Excuse me, but is your last name Orwell by any chance?

The Geneva Conventions were created because the international community agreed that no country had the legitimate right to do this .  Small and weak states have a right be protect from being invaded.  That hasn’t stopped the most powerful states like the US and Israel going ahead with it of course.

Again, your complaint comes back to the fact that Israel has been breaking the law since the laws existed and you’re upset that it makes Israel look bad.

No state is allowed to do what Israel is doing ITW. 
Egypt took the Sinai and international law stipulated that it should be returned.  International law stipulates that the West Bank and East Jerusalem be returned also.
“Israel defeated Syria in 1967 and 1973—you say therefore she should be forced to give back the Golan Heights.  Huh?????”

Absolutely, especially seeing as Israel started the war with Syrian in the first place to take that very piece of land.  Should thuggery and Imperialism be rewarded ITW?

Here’s what Moshe Dayan had to say about the Golan (as reported in the Washington Post):
Said Dayan: “I made a mistake in allowing the [Israeli] conquest of the Golan Heights. As defense minister I should have stopped it because the Syrians were not threatening us at the time.” The attack proceeded, he went on, not because Israel was threatened but because of pressure from land-hungry farmers and army commanders in northern Israel. “Of course [war with Syria] was not necessary. You can say the Syrians are bastards and attack when you want. But this is not policy. You don’t open aggression against an enemy because he’s a bastard but because he’s a threat.”

About those shellings: Syria shelled and otherwise emanated cold hostility. But, Dayan told his interviewer, “at least 80 percent” of two decades of border clashes were initiated by Israel. “We would send a tractor to plow some [disputed] area . . . and we knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn’t shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that’s how it was.”

(Washington Post Dec 24, 1999, p A15)

“Whether it’s a bar game or a a war: Loser pays.”

Greta idea.  Let’s declare war and start looting the city shall we?

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 8, 2010 at 12:00 am Link to this comment

And who the f’ do you think you are Shingo?  You were exposed early
on in this forum for the thug and fool you are.  Yup.  Oh yeah you are
either an Islamist or and Islamist sympathizer.  You have already shown
to be an apologist.  You have provided the best laugh of the entire
forum though, Shingo says - “I am first and foremost a humanitarian
who is obsessed with justice and equality.”
  hahahahahahaaaaaaa
Right, you are obsessed that is true.  Obsessed with your own smell. 
You do not get to dictate what the state of the world must be.  That is
megalomania.  The god complex.  There are too many iconoclasts.

Shenonymous says - Right, logic does not require finesse but
understanding beyond primary-grade reading does.  Logic does not
speak.  It is a systematic method of reasoning.  Its use is to show
whether or not an argument is consistent.  Thus you demonstrate your
ignorance once a gain.  You are a preening idiot.  You use cuckoo
logic.  I made no case for the value of the abstract over the factual, do
go to a remedial reading class.  Your use of cuckoo logic is to call
names like a juvenile.  And also like a juvenile to call anyone who
believes Israel has the right to exist a Zionist.  It is as if you have
poopy pants about it.  Like a juvenile you resort to strawman
arguments twisting what is really said into some crude deformity.  They
are so easy to slither into.  You mischaracterize what someone says
then attack your mischaracterization, hoping your staff will let you get
away with it and others who are incapable of recognizing your
seductive lies will believe you.
 
Here I will teach you again…you should pay me to be your tutor.
The straw man (or counterfeit) argument can take a number of forms:
  *Making your own argument to appear stronger you present a flimsy
version of who you disagree with then try to score a hit by bashing it
to bits.  This is your verbal thug side.
  *Flat out misrepresenting the opponent’s argument. (This is your
usual style)
  *You quoting someone you disagree with using their words out of
context, and thus giving the appearance that he or she advocated an
position that you created. (Another of your favs)
    *Calling on someone who argues an opposing viewpoint, but is a
poor debater, as the defender (looking for a weak link debater).
  * Inventing a fictitious zombie to weakly argue the “other side”.
  * Taking a weak argument that someone may have used, calling it a
lie, and then behaving as if you defeated the entire argument. Any
stronger arguments detected for the opposing viewpoint are ignored.
  *The “extreme man” argument is where you overcaricature someone
else’s point. (You pull this one out often)

It is enough that I say I am not a Jew, I am not an Israeli, I am not a
Zionist.

I believe Israel has the right to exist, but you and the Islamist world do
not except the Muslims for Israel, who at the peril of their lives stand
up for Israel and the fact of its existence.  Islam is the only religion in
the world that will kill those born into Islam who choose not to follow
Allah.  That is the imbalance that exists.

http://formermuslimsunited.americancommunityexchange.org/

http://arabsforisrael.blogspot.com/2009/02/2who-are-we_09.html

I am first and foremost a humanitarian who is obsessed with justice
and equality!  I’ll tell you why I indeed earn that title, if you will say
what deeds you do to make you think you deserve to call yourself that! 
Please give us something more to laugh about.  Yes, Israel’s existence
is a reality and its continued existence is not incumbent upon the Arab
world to exist.  It is not a right, it is fact.  Another fact is that Israel
decides whether who it suspects are its enemy may or may not have
arms within its borders.  It is what all countries do.  See your cuckoo
logic?  It is your constant companion.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 7, 2010 at 8:17 pm Link to this comment

You miss the most obvious:

A nation that wins a war and defeats its enemies doesn’t have to sue for peace—it dictates it.

Only Israel isn’t allowed to do that. In normal foreign relations, if Israel had the Sinai, they wouldn’t have to give it back to get Egypt to recognize Israel.  And don’t say “but that was 30 years ago.” 

Israel defeated Syria in 1967 and 1973—you say therefore she should be forced to give back the Golan Heights.  Huh?????

Whether it’s a bar game or a a war: Loser pays.

I’m not defending atrocities, war crimes or crimes against humanity.

BTW, the reason the Poles didn’t organize to get their land back is that the Russians were a hell of a lot more vicious than Israelis—they simply slaughtered anyone who DARED challenge them. They took no halfway measures. They followed Sun-Tzu’s rule that a defeated enemy must either be absorbed or obliterated.  Israel did not do that.  If they had, there’d be no Palestinians in the West Bank today.

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By Shingo, April 7, 2010 at 8:06 pm Link to this comment

I am not twisting your word IT,

Your comparison is moot, because 1948 as not such isolated event.

1)The Soviet Union ceased to exit 20 years ago.  The occupation of Palestine exists to this very day.

2)The events at the core of the I/P conflict stem from the 1967 war.

3)Not even the League of Arab is asking Israel to return to 1948 borders, but the 1967 borders. The events of 1948 are still discussed because the consequences of that event are unavoidable to this day.

4)You won’t find anyone praising the USSR for what it did to Poland.  In fact, you’ll find it quite hard to locate any the survivors from that event.

5)The Polish refugees were not forced to take refuge in refugee camps for half a century

6)There are REPEATED calls (such as by me) to repatriate Palestinians or pay compensation.

7)Israel’s crimes were exacerbated in 1967, so Israel essentially repeated the crimes of 1948 20 years later.

There is no double standard whatsoever, because you cannot possibly isolate the subsequent 60 years and current events from the events of 1948.

Give me an example of Russia continuing to steal land and demolish the homes of Poles and Germans.  Where are the Russian occupation forces, the imposed check points, the refugee camps. Even the Berlin Wall, which was smaller than the West Bank Wall, has now gone.
Can you seriously discount that all these realities are a direct consequence of 1948 and 1967?
Find me a community of the Poles that wants to return to their homeland and Germans back to theirs, and then we can talk about it.
Last but not least, Israel was created under the specific stipulation that the Palestinians not be discriminated or disenfranchised in any way.  Israel violated this condition immediately.
It’s 22 year that separates them, not 3.  In fact, make that 65 years, because the sins of 1948 are not only alive, but played out to this day.
Now, I have asked you half a dozen times to list one way in which Israel has suffered as a consequence of it’s actions in a way that the now defunct USSR did not.  You seem unable to do so.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 7, 2010 at 7:48 pm Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man, April 7 at 9:15 pm #

ITW, -“Despite the fact that your position is somewhat similar to mine, you are still twisting facts and altering reality.”

-

So now you are the only one who has a unique and correct view of the Middle East?  Only your reality of history remains untwisted? Unfiltered? You are not just as human as shingo?

With your superb perspective I ask; WHY ARE YOU NOT IN THE MIDDLE EAST SOLVING THESE MANY AND DIVERSE AGE OLD PROBLEMS RIGHT NOW? Why waste your time here?
You are too much, ITW.  Too much….LOL

****************************************************

Yeah, it’s just too much fun being in the middle with both you AND Shingo taking off against me!

I am simply a logician.  I make mistakes, but I don’t make them deliberately, and I do try to fix them.  My views are NOT delivered to me either by the RNC (or Glenn Beck/Limbaugh/Hannity) or the DNC(or Carville/Begala/Olberman). 

I go where facts take me, and they have taken me places that surprised myself, such as when Right-to-Bear-Arms types will shred the First Amendment but treasure the 2nd.  Or when Liberals do the opposite.  So I asked myself: Is the Bill of Rights a Chinese Menu—Pick 1 from column A and 2 from column B, or do you have to accept the WHOLE enchilada?  I found myself defending separation of church and state to gun-loving conservatives and the right to keep and bear arms to liberals.

In the middle.  But that’s where the facts and logic have stuck me. Getting fired upon by both sides.

I can live with it.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 7, 2010 at 7:39 pm Link to this comment

Shingo, you just keep twisting my words.

1) The forced relocation of the Poles and Germans happened after 1945.
2) The formation of Israel was in 1948 and the “catastrophe” which is Israel’s “Original Sin” for which the entire Arab world and much of the rest of the world condemn her, happened at that time.
3) Basic arithmetic: 1948 minus 1945= 3 years. Not 60. Not 80. But 3.
4) There is No, repeat NO movement today, nor has there been in MY lifetime, to repatriate Poles to what is now (I believe) Belarus, or to repatriate Germans to what is now Poland.
5) There are REPEATED calls (such as by YOU) to repatriate Palestinians.

How is there not a double standard?  Why are YOU not fighting to get Poles back to their homeland and Germans back to theirs?

3 years.  That’s all that separates them.

You’ve lost your logical compass in your effort to “win” rather than reach a rational conclusion.

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By Shingo, April 7, 2010 at 7:14 pm Link to this comment

part 1 of 2

I don’t spare a thought to what I am to your life Shen, because you are not that important frankly.

You began axiomatizing the entire Islamic world from the fist post you made, so yes, I went after you.  You are anything but impartial, and it really is a mystery why you continue to maintain that presence, when it’s so obvious that you are a Zionist through and through.

Only a Zionist has the capacity to feign outrage at the tragedy of one death, while dismissing the relatively greater tragedy of 4 or more because they happen to be Arabs.

There was no call for the destruction of Israel by Fatah and Hamas, implied or otherwise throughout that debate. The participants barely mentioned Israel at all for that mater.  Only a true Zionist sees and hears visions of Israel’s destruction when it’s not even mentioned.  ITW, who I greatly respect regretfully falls victim to this condition himself on occasion.

If you imagined implications then that is because that’s what you wanted to hear.

I am not an Islamist, not and I an Islamist sympathizer.   Unlike you, I am first and foremost a humanitarian who is obsessed with justice and equality.

Logic does not require finesse my dear.  Logic speaks for itself.  What you are really trying to say is that logic get’s in the way of your arguments.  Early in the debate, you tried to make a similar case for the value of the abstract over the factual. Metaphors are not facts my dear, because metaphors, like implications, are open to interpretation.

Yes you are a Zionist Shen.  Do the right thing for once and be honest.  There’s no shame in being a Zionist.  In fact, you could learn from ITW, who is one of the rare individuals who has managed to balance Zionism, with logic, reason and justice.  I doubt you’ll have much success getting your head around the concepts of logic, reason and justice, but you can only try.

It is a Zionist argument to assert that Israel has the right to exist because it is an absurd statement.  Israel’s existence is a reality and it’s continued existence is not incumbent upon any rights to such existence.

“The students at the debate did not think much of either Fatah’s or Hamas’ sincerity. And if they are sincere, when does the sincerity begin?”

Sounds like a song from a vaudeville musical, but since when have any political leaders been regarded as sincere?

“  The Israel Air Force successfully bombed a Gaza City weapons storage facility overnight Monday, the IDF Spokesperson announced Tuesday morning.”

Thsi does bring up an interesting argument doesn’t it Shen? Isn’t it interesting how ITW argues that Israel is held to a different set of standards, yet, Israel, with all it’s state of the art military hardware, gets away with deciding that it’s enemies are not allowed to arms themselves?
When Hamas or other Palestinians arm themselves, it’s portrayed as some illegal and clandestine activity.  We know what the Germans did about the smuggling of weapons into the Warsaw Ghetto. It did what it had to against Jewish terrorists right?

Of course Israel doesn’t have to smuggle in weapons. It has the US to donate white phosphorous, tanks, jets, and whatever else Israel wishes. The US media used to complain about Iran’s weapons contributions to Hezbollah and Hamas, which would not come close to paying a tiny sales tax, if there was one, on the weaponry US taxpayers donate to Israel.

Yes there is a weapons problem. You seem to have forgotten which side has the nuclear weapons and which has the pea shooters.

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By Shingo, April 7, 2010 at 7:11 pm Link to this comment

Part 2 of 2

Here’s a little bit of reality for your consideration:
“Israel is ‘main threat to Middle East peace’: Turkish PM”
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/100407/world/turkey_mideast_israel_unrest

“IDF Spokesperson Announcement”
You cannot be serious Shen.  Your source is an IDF spokesman?  Wow, you’re not only scraping the bottom of the barrel, but excavating below it.

Let’s inject a little reality into this point shall we?  Gaza is not Israel.  It has it’s won government and if it wasn’t for the fact that Israel have imposed a 3 year long illegal and inhumane blockade, which is nothing less than an act of war.

So having blocked the delivery of humanitarian aid for most of the 3 year blockade, Israel has allowed a tiny fraction of what Gaza desperately needs to get through and it now wants praise for it?Gaza desperately needs 100 times this many supplies.  When John Kerry visited Israel, he was appalled that Israel were preventing basic food items from getting to Gaza.

Need I remind you what Israel did the last time they were blockaded?

Seeing as you’re a fan of metaphors, here’s one that explains your disconnect.  Israel is like an arsonist who sets a house on fire and then returns with a cup of water pretending to help put it out.

This is sincere depravity and cynicism.  Israel’s.

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By Go Right Young Man, April 7, 2010 at 6:15 pm Link to this comment

ITW, -“Despite the fact that your position is somewhat similar to mine, you are still twisting facts and altering reality.”

-

So now you are the only one who has a unique and correct view of the Middle East?  Only your reality of history remains untwisted? Unfiltered? You are not just as human as shingo?

With your superb perspective I ask; WHY ARE YOU NOT IN THE MIDDLE EAST SOLVING THESE MANY AND DIVERSE AGE OLD PROBLEMS RIGHT NOW? Why waste your time here?

You are too much, ITW.  Too much….LOL

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By Robert, April 7, 2010 at 5:49 pm Link to this comment

Two great short videos to watch


Chris Hedges on the Gaza massacre (Part 1)

America: The Silence of a Nation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YA28Pfuvtg&feature=related

 

Chris Hedges on the Gaza massacre (Part 2)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hBniXXfI1M&feature=related

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By elisalouisa, April 7, 2010 at 5:33 pm Link to this comment

This thread reminds me of some of the residents in a nursing home my mother was in, for more than one reason. Residents would no longer be there and no one knew where they went. So it is here. Tao Walker if you are reading this and have a
new haunt the web address would be most appreciated.

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By Shenonymous, April 7, 2010 at 5:11 pm Link to this comment

t doesn’t matter to me what you think Shingo.  You pretty much are
really a cipher in my life.  You began calling me names from the first
post I made so don’t pretend you are recently being an utter asshole.  I
am impartial.  But I think Israel has the right to exist.  If that is partial
then the Arabs want Israel to be destroyed.  Plain and simple.  The call
for the destruction of Israel by the Palestinian authorities, both Fatah
and Hamas is implied in the debate and of course you would deny it. 
You are an Islamist or Islamist sympathizer. 

Implication means that the word destruction does not have to be
explicitly said. It is implied.  If you cannot see implications then that is
because you don’t want to see them.  If I see it then that is because I
can see the implications in what is said.  Mannn do I have to teach you
everything?  You have absolutely no logical finesses.  Oh, yeah, you
didn’t know what metaphor meant either some time back.  My bad, I
forgot your limitations as I expect better thinking.  Tch tch.  I am not a
Zionist but I do believe Israel has the right to exist.  I am not a Jew but
I do believe Israel has the right to exist. I am an atheist and I believe
Israel has the right to exist.  Guess I will now have to preface all my
posts with that disclosure.

Shingo says - “That’s right Shen, Hamas are demanding that rocket
fire cease.”
  I hope they are sincere.  The students at the debate did
not think much of either Fatah’s or Hamas’ sincerity. And if they are
sincere, when does the sincerity begin?

Haaretz, March 3, 2010 IAF (Israeli Air Force) strikes Gaza City weapons
storage facility.  Source: 
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1158343.html
Gaza Strip militants have fired 330 rockets into Israel since the end
of Operation Cast Lead, 35 of them in 2010.

  The Israel Air Force successfully bombed a Gaza City weapons
storage facility overnight Monday, the IDF Spokesperson announced
Tuesday morning.
  “The attack is in response to the recent firing of rockets at Israel’s
southern communities over the past few days,” the IDF said.

Advertisement

  Ten rockets launched from the Gaza Strip have struck Israel over the
past five days, killing a Thai migrant worker.

A little bon mot for you ITW
IDF Spokesperson Announcement, 25 Feb 2010
Annunal Export of Israeli-Grown Apples into Syria Begins Today,
March 2, 2010
- IDF Spokesperson and CoGAT Update
http://idfspokesperson.com/2010/03/01/idf-spokesperson-and-
cogat-update-1-mar-2010/
Weekly Summary of Humanitarian Aid Transferred into the Gaza
Strip

“Over the last week, a total of 595 truckloads, consisting of 13,976
tons of humanitarian aid were transferred into the Gaza Strip from
Israel via the various crossings. Likewise, ten truckloads of carnations
were exported from Gaza to Europe.

Additionally, 255 medical patients and accompanying individuals from
the Gaza Strip crossed into Israel and the Judea and Samaria region for
medical treatment. 222 staff members of international organizations
crossed into the Gaza Strip.

Essential food and humanitarian aid products, including milk powder,
baby food, rice, cooking oil, flour, hygiene products and medical
supplies including a CT scanner were among the goods that crossed
into Gaza this past week.

Lastly, 1,216,297 liters of diesel fuel and 992 tons of cooking gas also
crossed into Gaza.”

This is sincerity.  Israel’s.

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By Shingo, April 7, 2010 at 3:26 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

There is very little outrage against Israel for its occupation of the West Bank.  The outrage we are witnessing is because of Israel’s attack on Gaza.  Of course, outrage is meaningless unless it translates into action, and none has been taken against Israel.

You have yet to explain how that outrage has translated into any kind of justice against Israel or whether Israel has suffered more because of it’s actions than did the Soviet Union.  There is no double standard compared to what the USSR was held to.  You’re comparing events that took place 60-80 years apart and pretending that nothing has changed in that time that would influence the public awareness about world events.

Tell me ITW.  Do you know of any world government that commends the USSR for it’s actions in Poland?  Was the USSR not condemned for what it did, albeit belatedly?
You cannot possibly discount the effect that 24 hour news coverage and the internet has on people’s awareness of current events, and thus people’s reactions.  In the 1930’s, it took days, sometimes weeks for news stories to emerge.  The extent of the Holocaust was only realized after the camps were liberated.

Sorry, but Israel is not remotely interested in trading with it’s neighbours, certainly not it’s leaders.  If it was so interested in those 750,000,000 customers, it would have accepted the Arab Peace initiative, which would have normalized relations with 22 Arab states, thereby not only giving then access to those 750,000,000 customers but guaranteeing an end to military confrontations.

Israel has rejected the initiative because they clearly value land theft over peace with it’s neighbours. Of course, I am referring to the Israeli leadership, not the Israeli public, who largely support negotiating with Hamas, which the government rejects.

As they say, armies will cross borders where trade does not.
I agree that Iran is a natural ally of Israel, but Israel’s policies with regard to Iran were also idiotic.  The Shah was a nasty piece of work, and Israel supported his brutality.
I am glad to hear you haven’t lost your sense.  N it’s not all B&W, not there is only answer to who is occupying, building settlements and imposing the blockade on Gaza

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By Inherit The Wind, April 7, 2010 at 3:03 pm Link to this comment

GRYM:

Despite the fact that your position is somewhat similar to mine, you are still twisting facts and altering reality.

But Shingo is doing the same. He pretends there’s no world outrage against Israel for its occupation of the West Bank, an occupation I no longer support.  So he PRETENDS there’s no double-standard that the USSR wasn’t held to but Israel is. Shingo accuses me of flip-flopping.  Nope. I STILL want to see a separate Palestinian state, and a successful one.

Shingo asserts that Israel wants nothing to do with the Arab world.  This is absurd.  They see 750,000,000 customers!  What they don’t want is military hostility.  Most Israelis are wise enough to realize that economic ties can prevent military confrontations.  This has saved Europe (most of it) from conflicts (in Europe) since 1945. Only the former Yugoslavia failed in that.

Iran’s behavior since 1979 toward Israel has been truly idiotic. Israel, regardless of the government, is a natural ally.  Had they COURTED Israel, rather than shun it, the war with Saddam Hussein might have been far less costly for them.
The dichotomy of Unintended Consequences…

Shingo, my FUNDAMENTAL position has not changed in years: A Two-State solution, lubricated by economic ties.  Israelis MUST come to their senses and rid their government of the neo-zionists. (Love Calabashe’s term)  I am not interested as GRYM is, in the Balfour declaration that it ALL should be Israel.  That is both moot and inappropriate.

But, unlike you, I see shades of gray. It’s not all b&w—All Arabs “Good”, all Israelis “Evil”.

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By Shingo, April 7, 2010 at 2:54 pm Link to this comment

Shen,

I demonstrated long ago that you are a fraud, a liar and a plagiarist.  Allan Dershowitz would be proud of you. Early on in the thread you claimed to be am impartial observer playing devils advocate, but as it turns out, you’re a common Zionist shill reading straight out of the Likud playbook.

I knew you were lying about the call for Israel’s destruction from the debate, because I had already watched it.  There are no implications calling for the demise of Israel.

NONE.

This is even in spite of your 400 word transcript, not a world about the destruction of Isrlae.  In fact, ABDULLAH ABDULLAH states categorically, that “”..we’re saying we resist violence, but there is non-violent resistance.”  Hamas and Fatah have every legal right to resist occupation under international law.

Thanks for proving my points, but I didn’t need your help to debunk your lies.

Yes, Fatah and Hamas seek reconciliation with each other, because without it, they remain divided and their cause will suffer.  And why should they seek reconciliation with Israel until they get their own state?   

Here’s something for you to Google Shen.

Did reonciliation take place between the white and black pulation in South Africa before or after apartheid ended?
You continue to demonstrate an inability to think your arguments through Shen.

Next point:
“Approximately 100 rockets and mortar shells have been fired at the western Negev since Operation Cast Lead ended.”

Firstly, none were fired by Hamas.  NONE. In fact, your second link states that, “Islamist group’s Gaza government calls on armed factions to halt rocket fire on Israel for fear of escalation”

That’s right Shen, Hamas are demanding that rocket fire cease.

Meanwhile, Israel has conducted dozens of bombing attacks on Gaza.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6304JQ20100401
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8600285.stm
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2010-03/12/c_13208380.htm

Israel’s illegal blockade of Gaza entered it’s 300th day just recently.  A blockade is an act of war.

Israel has continued to destroy Gaza farmlands since Cast Lead
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=54480
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article11074.shtml

Since cast lead, Israel have imposed a 300 metre no go zone on the Gaza side of the border, effectively denying Palestinians access to 10% of the land in Gaza.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_–_Gaza_Strip_barrier

Israel has been shooting at Palestinians in Gaza:
http://www.akiranews.com/2010/03/30/report-idf-shoots-and-kills-palestinian-teen-on-gaza-border/

Israeli tanks have entered Gaza and killed Palestinians.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8590362.stm
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100327/wl_afp/mideastconflictgaza
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LDE62P1L1.htm

Since Cast Lead, Israel has cracked down on Human Rights Groups and killed protesters.

Israel is now defending war criminals in Somalia so that their won war criminals avoid facing justice.
http://www.juancole.com/2010/03/singer-pro-israel-lobbys-curious.html

So remind me Shen, who is being disingenuous?  Who does not want peace?

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By Shingo, April 7, 2010 at 2:22 pm Link to this comment

“THE HAMAS CHARTER:”

Congratulations LSL, you’ve updated your reading material from 1968 to the 1980’s.  At this rate,  you should be up to the turn of the century by next week, but in the mean time, he’s a little peek into your future:

Hamas drops call for destruction of Israel from manifesto
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jan/12/israel

So LSL, the story continues.

Have fun.

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By Shenonymous, April 7, 2010 at 11:04 am Link to this comment

Yes, Think-Israel is a marvelous news journal.  http://www.think-
israel.org/
All the alleged facts are reference searchable.  When I find a source, I
always rephrase the article in my own words for my own
comprehension.  Also I note if I am copy/pasting because you change
what is said if anyone tries to restate what was read, it is out of
gunshyness to copy/paste because you shoot whether one copy/pastes
or tries to express their understanding.  So f’ to you. That is not
plagiarizing, that is how research and reporting on one’s research is
done.  If I have missed noting a source, it is not the end of the world,
because I have in some way rephrased what was read.  I always put
quotes around what I’ve copy/pasted. So no foul there.  Your
accusation is merely a smokescreen Shingo for your lack of research
skills and copious use of personal opinion from what you may have
read somewhere then interpreted for your own purposes.  Nothing
wrong with interpretation if sources are given.

http://www.thedohadebates.com/debates/debate.asp?
d=74&s=6&mode=details
“Out of an audience of more than 350 people, 89 per cent voted “No”
to the question: “Do you have confidence in the current Palestinian
leaders?” with just 11 per cent voting “yes”.”

I rewatched the debate.  There are several implications that the demise
of Israel is the desire of the Palestinian Arabs and as represented by
Fatah and Hamas. The first is Fatah and Hamas seek reconciliation with
each other not between Palestinians and Israel.  Their project is to
coalesce their resources in order to expel Israel, it is thought from
Palestinian territories, but the implication is from all of the Palestine
region.  Peaceful negotiations are not really on the table.  Read the
transcript.

Palestinians are deeply divided.  Fatah and Hamas accused of holding
hundreds of each other’s supporters, also torturing and executing some
of them.  Close to new deal (Egyptian),
AUDIENCE (M)  Eritrea. Mr. Abdullah, you mentioned that you don’t
believe that Hamas believed, no more believed that attacks on Israel
can be a solution to the problem, so what are these solutions? I mean
it’s not about condemning everything Israel does and you just
condemn. I can condemn sitting here, but you are, as an elite sitting in
power, what have you done to undo the problem that happened to the
Palestinians, your people?

ABDULLAH ABDULLAH Remember that resistance is our motto, our
motto will be forever, till our land is liberated and our people are free,
sovereign and independent. We never stopped resistance but resistance
varies, the style, the mode of resistance from one area to another, from
one state to another. When we feel that the… using one method of
resistance is costing us too much, [more] than we gain from it, then we
abandon it, we choose another way of resistance. Remember in the late
sixties we opted for plane hijacking as a sort of resistance to show the
world that there is a people called the Palestinian people, they have a
land occupied and they need to be free and independent. But when that
mode of resistance became too costly to us than [the] benefit from it -
so we abandon it. Now, our people are up in arms resisting the Israeli
occupation. If you see the number of people who are coming to our
side and our resistance in Balain, in Nalain, in Jerusalem. In Jerusalem,
by the way, in Sheikh Jarrah we have more non-Palestinians
participating in the resistance of the occupation than Palestinians.

TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, so are you saying, are you saying Dr. Abdullah, let me just ask
you this: are you now saying that Fatah now wants to go back to
violence?
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH Never, no, we’re saying we resist violence, but
there is non-violent resistance.

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By Shenonymous, April 7, 2010 at 10:58 am Link to this comment

Observations from the Fatah/Hamas debate… continued

Mar. 23, 2009: Qassam lands south of Ashkelon
Shmulik Hadad 3.24.09, 16:55 / Israel News
A Qassam rocket fired from the Gaza Strip landed near a community in
the Ashkelon Coast Regional Council on Tuesday, after 10 days without
rockets. No injuries or damage were reported in the attack.

Security forces began canvassing the area in a bid to recover the rocket.
None of the armed Palestinian groups has claimed responsibility for the
shooting.

The last rocket barrage on the Negev took place on March 14. 
Approximately 100 rockets and mortar shells have been fired at the
western Negev since Operation Cast Lead ended. 
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7…691603,00.html

Who is being disingenuous?  Who does not want peace?

Back to the debate:
AUDIENCE (M)
I come from Egypt. My question is about the famous saying: “Divide to
conquer”. I see this as happening between Fatah and Hamas and I wish
to see Palestinians and Israelis discussing and negotiating peace
agreements and liberating the land instead of having Hamas and Fatah
discussing this for what - sixty years to come? - about the different
ideologies that they have.

NABIL SHAATH I think I understood, the question is about Palestinian-
Israeli negotiations, not about Hamas-Fatah. As I just told you these
negotiations never started, there was a resolution by the Arab League
to support going into indirect negotiations, but that did not happen
because just before we started again the Israelis announced the
building of 1,600 new settlements in Jerusalem and announced that
50,000 more houses will be built in Jerusalem, i.e. swallowing of
Jerusalem before we even get started at negotiations. And therefore
these negotiations will stop. We are not going into negotiations if the
Americans cannot even keep their word about stopping new
settlements.”  (There is no mention of Israel building in West Bank, only
in Jerusalem.)

From Y-Net News.com Hamas set to execute collaborators with Israel
http://www.thedohadebates.com/debates/debate.asp?
d=74&s=6&mode=details

Some interesting news: copy/pasted
Published: 03.24.10, 14:33 / Israel News (Ali Waked)
Hamas’ interior minister, Fathi Hamed, said his organization would
carry out death sentences handed to Palestinian residents of Gaza who
were found guilty of collaborating with Israel.
 
He said the Hamas government did not plan on waiting for Palestinian
President Mahmoud Abbas to approve the decrees as required by
Palestinian law.

Mashaal: War in region possible
Hamas leader meets with heads of Palestinian factions at his Damascus
home, says armed struggle against Israel to continue. Islamist group’s
Gaza government calls on armed factions to halt rocket fire on Israel
for fear of escalation Date 4/03/2010
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3871364,00.html

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By omop, April 7, 2010 at 10:58 am Link to this comment

ISRAELI MOTTO.

  BUSINESS IS BUSINESS. AND ITS BOOMING. NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN KOSHER
  AND HILLAL
 

  http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1161405.html

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By Robert, April 7, 2010 at 10:04 am Link to this comment

Zionist terror 1946 to 2001

By Jerry Mazza

Online Journal Associate Editor


“Why would we think that some portion of the Jewish people would not end as hardened by history as their oppressors? After all, they were a people who had been chased, derided, expelled through the centuries from country to country, only to land in the horrors of Nazi Germany, the camps, the ovens, the first industrial-strength genocide.

In fact, as various Jews landed in the 1930s and ‘40s as refugees in Palestine, and while the Holocaust was in full bloom, sure enough the intensely Zionist Irgun, Stern Gang and Haganah terrorist gangs emerged there as well. In 1946, two years before the partitioning, as Israel was being birthed from Palestine, the Zionist terror bombing of the King David Hotel shook the Middle East. The brutal bombing was ordered by no less than Menachem Begin, who led the Irgun, and who one day would be Israel’s Prime Minister.

The base of the British Secretariat and military command was shaken to the ground by that terror bombing and some 92 people killed in the explosion of the King David Hotel. The bombing was in response to British Operation Agatha and the Black Sabbath of June 29, 1946, in which 17,000 British soldiers confiscated both weapons and intelligence documents during the arrest of thousands of leaders of Yishuv and Haganah activists.

At King David headquarters, the documents revealed Yishuv’s operational plans, incriminating the agency in the leadership of the United Resistance, as well as the IZL and the Lehi, all focused against British operations.

Some 25 fighters took part in the planning of the hotel operations. Seven Irgun and Haganah terrorists were disguised as Arab laborers delivering milk and planted seven large milk cans, actually demolition bombs, beside structural support columns in the basement of the King David Hotel. Some were fitted with timers to explode as second responders would be arriving.

One could say the King David Hotel attack was a false-flag operation reminiscent of the Oklahoma bombing, the first World Trade Center basement bombing and even the second WTC bombing. We now know there were massive explosions in the basements of Towers One and Two, as well as at the tops of the Towers, with charges on the floors between cutting away support columns so that the buildings would free-fall in a matter of 10 seconds, at the speed of gravity.

Tower Seven, across a narrow street from Tower One was not hit by any plane at all. It suffered some damage and fire from falling debris. Yet at 3:30 on the afternoon of 9/11, owner Larry Silverstein, a dual Israeli/American citizen, said that Tower Seven would be pulled. Sure enough an hour and a half later, Tower Seven went down in a classic, planned internal demolition into its own footprint in six seconds, an act that had to take weeks or months to prepare, not ninety minutes. Mr. Silverstein, also the lease holder of the WTC, made a handy $500 million dollar profit on the loss of Tower Seven.

His legendary financial return from the WTC insurance, which award he had raised to $3.5 billion two months before the attack, included the prescient possibility of the Towers being hit by terrorist-hijacked airliners. His reward was finally resolved at $4.56 billion, after he asked $7 billion, claiming that each Tower’s fall should be regarded as a separate event. Today, Silverstein wants $12.3 billion more for other claimed losses. Silverstein’s best-known partner is former Israeli Commando Frank Lowey, who controlled the retail space of the WTC.”

“The Lavon Affair

The USS Liberty bombing

False Flag ops in 1982 in Lebanon and Syria

US friends of Israel

Israeli theft of US computer technology

Following Zakheim and Pentagon trillions to Israel and 9-11”

~~~~~~~~~~

For full details click on link for details/sources:

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_3351.shtml

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By Liquor Store Larry, April 7, 2010 at 9:22 am Link to this comment

THE HAMAS CHARTER:

  “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.” (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

  “The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. “

  “There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”

  END OF STORY!

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By omop, April 7, 2010 at 8:39 am Link to this comment

The recent earthquakes that have taken place in Haiti, Mexico, Indonesia and
elsewhere have unearthed Aramaic tablets in the Negev that conclusively prove
that the Palestenian/Arabs are recent migrants (experts decided after all the
factual data inscribed) from places such as Moldovia, Brooklyn, Beverly Hills,
Kieve, Roumania and Hungary,

One of the tablets specifically details the contect and existance of real estate
documentation from a “higher power”, a reference to an unseen entity that on
the advice of Kabballah members, decided on the spur of the moment to create
a male creature already circumcised by the way and an attendant female
creature to service the man.

Scientists and historians all over the world claim that such findings not only
allows for new dimensions into the world of facts but also tangentially support
the comments of TD commentartors such as Sheno, TRYM, ITW, Whiskey Larry
and other like minded folks.

For those other “factless” TD commentors the team that made those
discoveries in the Negev claim that they hold the “original” fig leaf, the “apple
pits”, and the signed,sealed and delivered real estate deed as well as a Victoria
Secret original bras adorned with an Israeli and American flag lapels.

Its reported that there is some disagreement as to the interpretation of the first
reccorded words on one of the 66 tablets. The Palestenian?Arab migrants from
Moldavia and other parts of the world claim the first word means :holocaust”
while the original descendants of the guy with the fig leaf claim the word
means “caustlead”.

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By Leefeller, April 7, 2010 at 8:34 am Link to this comment

If one is to use democracy of observation, a form of
objectivity; something apparently absent or unknown to
some posters here. Expecting to win objective agreement,
through a innovative technique of obnoxious insults and
expecting one to conclude any opinion from constant
dust scouring, one can only conclude one thing, their is
one hell of a lot of dust.

Having entered this thread with absolutely no dog in the
fight, (I had hoped to learn something) I can only
assertion that by my not buying into the, you are with
me or against me “Bush mental make up” of one side;  I
found not conducive of much except contempt. Insulting
never has been and will never be a good way to change
opinion. Receiving constant insults from my refusing to
buy a pig in a poke has only shown me a program of
randy insults without really saying anything.

One can conclude with a degree of common sense,
obnoxious insulting is not debating, debunking and
serves no purpose but to stoke the rather large ego of
morons preforming their three ring circus act, and if
one adds bigotry and sexism their is no chance of
resolve.

May I further say, calling Eric Hoffer a “Zionist Twit”
provides a clear picture of extreme ignorance worthy of
nothing near assessment, for the constant attack on the
author or the message seems the order of the day, after
day. after day!

Larry’s analogy of the match pack on a football field is
a picture I see clearly, one of few though out this
whole thread, does this make it right, I do not know?

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By Shenonymous, April 7, 2010 at 7:10 am Link to this comment

Shingo, I do not hide the fact that I haunt the Internet for information.  I
have admitted as much over and over.  I cite my sources wherever they
come from.  You can go to hell with your constant criticism from your
vacuous and partisan mind.  It is amazing you can tell anything except
how to post volumes and volumes of nothing.  Do show where I have
plagiarized, be exact.  You run in circles Shingo.  You come to idiotic
conclusions and attribute them to me or whoever you have targeted.  If I
were so irrelevant Shingo, you would not bother to write long posts to
me.  You see me as powerful, Shingo.  And I guess I am from the weight
of all of your invective.  Do take shots at me Shingo, it keeps you busy.

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By Shingo, April 7, 2010 at 7:07 am Link to this comment

BTW Shen,

You yesterday you claimed that Fatah and Hamas declared their commitment to Israel’s destruction in the debate.
Seeing as you’re such a stickler for facts, did you have any luck finding the time code in the video where either side made that declaration?

I trust I haven’t caught you lying yet again Shen.  You wouldn’t want to disappoint me now.

And just to coorect you Shen:

“If they do give a reference it is from a biased source.”
Yes I do admit the references I give a biased sources, because they happen to be predominantly Israeli, but I thought you’d approve.  I take it you don’t trust Israeli sources either? Do you have somethign against them?

Oh and please stop sulking.  You lost the debate weeks ago.  It’s about time you got over it.

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By Shenonymous, April 7, 2010 at 6:56 am Link to this comment

I couldn’t agree more with you about facts, Liquor Store Larry, but on a
public forum it doesn’t do harm and is only good to give counterfactual
information, to keep the air clean.  It has been quite smelly with all the
Contingent odius commentary.  There is no debate as I have already
noted to ITW.  Debate is only possible if there is agreement about what
determines the truth of any thing said.  Have you observed any such
agreement?  If you have noticed, Shingo and Staff do not offer any rules
of debate.  They simply shout names and denigrate.  Their facts are
mere opinion and they give no reliable references.  If they do give a
reference it is from a biased source.

GRYM your assessment of the comparability of this forum as a
microcosm of the epic conflict that has been waged over the millennia
is one that I also came to see.  The dynamics are similar and so are the
psychological bases.  I do not see any movement plausible since I have
seen some offers to talk without partisan passion, but they have all
been renounced, rejected, and outright kicked in the face.  The word
reasonable needs to be interjected into the conversations, if there is
indeed any semblance of a conversation.  No philosophical compromise
seems possible and it does not bode well for either side, either on TD
or in the Middle East.

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By Shingo, April 7, 2010 at 6:56 am Link to this comment

I take that as a yes.  You do believe that Germany’s invasion of Poland was an act defence.  When the ambulance and men in white lab coats come knocking , don’t be alarmed,  they’re there to help.

Now comes Shen’s obligatory cut and paste not from Wikipedia this time, but ....http://www.think-israel.org/

I can always tell when you’re cutting a pasting Shen because your writing takes on an informed, educated and authoritative persona; qualities you yourself are sorely lacking. Yes that’s right Shen,  all I have to do when I suspect you are plagiarising is simple copy a few lines form your post and do a search and presto.

Lo and behold, your latest plagiarism comes directly from a Zionist web site.  Well who would have guessed? Sadly, the cut and paste was a wasted effort because it does not even mention the Balfour declaration.

So failing that, Shen moves on to a completely unrelated topic and decides to list all the terrorist attacks she can find not committed by Palestinians, but committed by Islamic extremist who were certainly motivates by the I/P conflict, proving yet again, that US support for Israel has indeed been very costly.

“Islamists bombed of Khobar Towers..”

Carried out by AQ in response to US presence in the region.  Think of it as Al Qaeda’s version of the King David Hotel bombing.

“Marine Barracks in Lebanon, October 23,1983.”

Which took place a few days after the Israeli Sabra and Shatill massacre, where Israel helped massacre 3,500 people.  The US promised that the refugees in the camp would be safe.

“Islamists murdered at least 1500 Israelis since Oslo was signed 9/13/93, with tens of thousands wounded — many maimed for life!”

Yes tragic.  Zionists on the other hand have, killed ten times that many Palestinians and wounded more than ten times than many — many maimed for life!

“Islamic Terrorists Have Carried Out More Than 14,374 terror attacks since 9/11/01”

Most of those attacks taking place in Iraq, following the illegal US attack, invasion and occupation, which was based on lies.

“In 2009 alone the Religion of Peace has scored up over 1600 dead bodies and 291 deadly terror attacks in 17 countries across the globe during its holiest month.”

Israel killed than many Palestinians in 6 months during 2008.

“It took about five posts for you to finally express any regret at all about the Thai worker, Shingo”

It’s taken dozens and you haven’t expressed any regret over the 4 murdered Palestinians. Probably because you approved.

“”Again you show your inability to deal with the facts as presented.”

On the contrary my dear.  I routinely run rings around you with facts. You’re confusing facts with being agreeable with you.
“You offer another strawman argument rather than discuss all those criminally killed by suicide bombers.”
What do you feel needs to be discussed, seeing as suicide attacks ended in 2006?
“It is irrelevant how many were killed by Israel in this argument.”
Of course it is She and with you, it always will be, because Palestinian lives are irrelevant aren’t they Shen?
You are certainly irrelevant She,  here and elsewhere, because sadly, you’re ignorant.
I’ll save real argument for those who are educated and have some comprehension of the topic at had. You don’t qualify.

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By Shingo, April 7, 2010 at 6:28 am Link to this comment

“Those who debate “facts”, (reads trivia) with the likes of Shingles and Patrick Henry have already fallen into a trap. The Third Reich was also full of “facts”.”

Translation:  Zionists know that facts can’t help them.

“The simple “fact” is that people have felt a need to bully and persecute the Jews for thousands of years and they still do”

Translation:  When all else fails, always use teh Old Testament as your historical reference and never forge to play the victim card.

“In this thread we see that those who hate Jews can even muster compassion for those rattlesnakes we call A-rabs if it means compromising the Jews.”

Translation: When called upon to denfend the indefensible, be sure to conflate Zionism with Jews and insist that Israel is the Jews and the Jews are Israel.

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By Shenonymous, April 7, 2010 at 6:08 am Link to this comment

Madmen think others are mad, Shingo.  Speaking in the third person is
a device for making a point.  It takes a mind with insight to understand
the device.  You have no writing skills to speak of except to make
sophomoric comments on a blog.  Wars are all about defense.  Show
how even one is not and define defense at the same time.  I did not
respond to your question about Germany and Poland because that was
not “a” war.  It was one invasion of a war.  You were simply baiting a
facile answer and there is none.  You simply have no skill at thinking
beyond a tactical approach.  I refer you to The war mentality by James
H. Horner; also New Developments in Chinese Strategic Psycological
Warfare, Timothy L. Thomas; http://onviolence.com/?e=63 - is an
interesting blog on war; The Principles of War, Carl von Clausewitz; also
“Who is Afraid of Carl vonCalusewitz,” especially chapter 27.  Shingo
learn to be a global thinker, think outside of your Truthdig box.

With the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1918, Britain and France were
handed more than 5,000,000 square miles to divide up and 99% was
given to the Arabs to create countries that did not exist previously.
Less than 1% was given as a Mandate for the re-establishment of a
state for the Jews on both banks of the Jordan River. In 1921, to
appease the Arabs once again, another three quarters of that less than
1% was given to a fictitious state called Trans-Jordan.  The total for all
the 22 Arab League countries is 6,145,389 square miles, Israel has
8,463.  Egypt, Iran, Turkey, Pakistan and Afghanistan are Islamists but
not Arab and are not included. 

The world must not forget…credit publicly taken by the terrorists.
Islamists bombed of Khobar Towers, U.S. Barracks Saudi Arabia, June
25, 1988.
Islamists bombed of the Marine Barracks in Lebanon, October 23,1983.
Islamistss bombed PanAm Flight 103, December 21, 1988.
Islamists bombed of the World Trade Center in February 26, 1993.
Islamists bombed of U.S. Embassies-Nairobi & Dar es Salaam, Africa,
8/10/98
Islamists attacked the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and intended
but thwarted attack on the White House or Congress on 9/11/01/
Islamists bombed 4 commuter trains in Madrid 3/11/04
Islamists murdered of at least 368 children in Beslan, Russia 9/1/004
Islamists murdered at least 1500 Israelis since Oslo was signed
9/13/93, with tens of thousands wounded — many maimed for life!
Islamic Terrorists Have Carried Out More Than 14,374 terror attacks
since 9/11/01
Sources:  various google searches;  Suggest anyone interested do their
own search. 

In 2009 alone the Religion of Peace has scored up over 1600 dead
bodies and 291 deadly terror attacks in 17 countries across the globe
during its holiest month.
Source:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2009

It took about five posts for you to finally express any regret at all
about the Thai worker, Shingo.  I purposely quizzed you because you
kept avoiding any direct answer.  You should check your own
conscience, which I realize might be difficult given your sociopathic
one-track minded tendencies.

Shingo says - ”“Shall we start listing all those killed criminally by
suicide bombers over the decades since a crime never ceases to be a
crime?”

Sure, you can start anywhere you like, because the numbers killed
criminally by suicide bombers over the decades is but a fraction of
those killed criminally by Israeli F-16’s and Apache helicopters.”

Again you show your inability to deal with the facts as presented.  You
offer another strawman argument rather than discuss all those
criminally killed by suicide bombers.  It is irrelevant how many were
killed by Israel in this argument.  It might be relevant elsewhere but not
here!  Learn to argue properly.

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By Shingo, April 7, 2010 at 6:04 am Link to this comment

Transcript of speech by UK Jewish MP SIR Gerald Kaufman to the House of Commons:

Israel acting like Nazis in Gaza

part 1 of 2

Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): I was brought up as an orthodox Jew and a Zionist. On a shelf in our kitchen, there was a tin box for the Jewish National Fund, into which we put coins to help the pioneers building a Jewish presence in Palestine.

I first went to Israel in 1961 and I have been there since more times than I can count. I had family in Israel and have friends in Israel. One of them fought in the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1973 and was wounded in two of them. The tie clip that I am wearing is made from a campaign decoration awarded to him, which he presented to me.

I have known most of the Prime Ministers of Israel, starting with the founding Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion. Golda Meir was my friend, as was Yigal Allon, Deputy Prime Minister, who, as a general, won the Negev for Israel in the 1948 war of independence.

My parents came to Britain as refugees from Poland. Most of their families were subsequently murdered by the Nazis in the holocaust. My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town of Staszow. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed.

My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The current Israeli Government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians. The implication is that Jewish lives are precious, but the lives of Palestinians do not count.

On Sky News a few days ago, the spokeswoman for the Israeli army, Major Leibovich, was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, 800 Palestinians—the total is now 1,000. She replied instantly that 500 of them were militants.

That was the reply of a Nazi. I suppose that the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants.

The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asserts that her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists. Tzipi Livnis father was Eitan Livni, chief operations officer of the terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi, who organised the blowing-up of the King David hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 victims were killed, including four Jews.

Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Irgun, together with the terrorist Stern gang, massacred 254 Palestinians in 1948 in the village of Deir Yassin. Today, the current Israeli Government indicate that they would be willing, in circumstances acceptable to them, to negotiate with the Palestinian President Abbas of Fatah. It is too late for that. They could have negotiated with Fatahs previous leader, Yasser Arafat, who was a friend of mine. Instead, they besieged him in a bunker in Ramallah, where I visited him. Because of the failings of Fatah since Arafats death, Hamas won the Palestinian election in 2006.

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By Shingo, April 7, 2010 at 6:03 am Link to this comment

Transcript of speech by UK Jewish MP SIR Gerald Kaufman to the House of Commons:
Part 2 of 2
Hamas is a deeply nasty organisation, but it was democratically elected, and it is the only game in town. The boycotting of Hamas, including by our Government, has been a culpable error, from which dreadful consequences have followed.

The great Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban, with whom I campaigned for peace on many platforms, said: You make peace by talking to your enemies.

However many Palestinians the Israelis murder in Gaza, they cannot solve this existential problem by military means. Whenever and however the fighting ends, there will still be 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza and 2.5 million more on the west bank. They are treated like dirt by the Israelis, with hundreds of road blocks and with the ghastly denizens of the illegal Jewish settlements harassing them as well. The time will come, not so long from now, when they will outnumber the Jewish population in Israel.

It is time for our Government to make clear to the Israeli Government that their conduct and policies are unacceptable, and to impose a total arms ban on Israel. It is time for peace, but real peace, not the solution by conquest which is the Israelis real goal but which it is impossible for them to achieve. They are not simply war criminals; they are fools.

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By Shingo, April 7, 2010 at 5:50 am Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man,

The only myth here have come from you.  Remember, it was you, who in the face of facts, tried to convince me that age and maturity would change the way I perceived them?

Correction 1: The West Bank is Arab territory occupied by Israel.

Correction 2: The concept of Palestinian nationhood was born when the Ottoman Empire was driven out of Palestine and Britain offered the Palestinians independence.

Correction 3: Under the Balfour Declaration, a Jewish homeland was supposed to reside within Palestine and was never intended to be a wholy converted into a Jewish National Home.

“His Majesty’s Government regard any such expectation as impracticable and have no such aim in view. Nor have they at any time contemplated … the disappearance or the subordination of the Arabic population, language or culture in Palestine. They would draw attention to the fact that the terms of the [Balfour] Declaration referred to, do not contemplate that Palestine as a whole should be converted into a Jewish National Home, but that such a home should be founded in Palestine… His Majesty’s Government therefore now declare unequivocally that it is not part of their policy that Palestine should become a Jewish State. (Command Paper 1922, from the Avalon Project at Yale Law School, 1996–2000).”

The above statement was approved by the Council of the League of Nations, thus establishing the legal charge for the British Mandate government

Correction 4: Arabs living within the West Bank and Gaza are Palestinians who have no desire to immigrate to neighbouring Arab nations.

Correction 5: Palestine has always referred to the land from the Jordan river to the sea.  What is now Jordan was referred to as Transjordan. Jordanians refer to themselves a Jordanians, not Palestinians.

Correction 5:  Under international law, land seized by wars, especially wars of aggression ( as was the 1967 war) must be returned.  The 4th Geneva Conventions on Human Rights (you know, the ones that were created because of the way the Nazis behaved in WWII) specifically forbid stealing land under the guise of war, ethnic cleansing and settling on such stolen territory.

Immediately after the 1967 war, the Israeli government was informed by its highest legal authority, Teodor Meron, that “civilian settlement in the administered territories contravenes the explicit provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention,” the foundation of international humanitarian law.  Israel’s Justice Minister concurred.  The World Court unanimously endorsed the essential conclusion in 2004, and the Israeli High Court technically agreed.

So to conclude GRYM you once again twisted your factoids, and failed miserably. I hope I have taught you something about history.

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By Shingo, April 7, 2010 at 5:35 am Link to this comment

ITW,

The boycott of the Arab world?  Are you for real?  Israel wants nothing to do with the Arab world. It wasn’t to be part of Europe and the EU.  Speaking of boycotts, I’m astonished you can keep a straight face and talk about boycotts while Israel pushed for severe sanctions against Iran for not having nukes, while Israel has them.

What have condemnations by China cost Israel?  Money?  Territory?  Arms? Trade?  Nope no of the aboce.

The Soviet Union’s support of the Arab states had nothing to do with Israel or the I/P conflict and you know it.

That was entirely based on the Cold War posturing.

What have the UN Resolutions meant to Israel when Israel can routinely give the UN the bird and suffer absolutely nothing as a consequence?  Come on ITW.  I asked you what the UN resolutions have cost Israel beyond a little bad publicity? You know you’re scraping the barrel here, so why are you playing dumb?

“The support of Hezbollah by Syria and Iran are nothing?”
Seriously ITW, it’s you that’s beginning to sound as disconnected from reality as GRYM.  Hezbollah and Syria are Israel’s enemies because Israel picked fights with the both of them.  They turned to Iran for support the way that Israel turned to the US.  So how is that punishment for Israeli war crimes? Or are Israel punishing the Arabs states by turning to the US?  For crying out loud ITW, wake up.  The only reason that Hezbollah even exist is because Israel occupied Lebanon for 18 years and massacred 15,000 people in the process.

Tell me ITW, would you rather Iran support, arms and finance Israel than the US, Britain and Europe?

“ The effort by the Arab world to slowly convince the REST of the world that Israel is the new Nazi Germany and they are poor, peaceful, freedom-loving people (without one true democracy among them)?”

Oh cry be a river.  Israel has been pulling the victim card for half a century and getting away with it.  Israel overplayed it’s hand in 2006 and 2008 buy committing war crimes, never mind Sabra and Shatilla or the Qana massacres, and you’re telling me its all the Arab’s fault?
I suppose the next thing you’re going to tell me is that Richard Falk, Goldstone and Gerald Kaufman are Arab agents.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8

“What WOULD mean something to you—NATO invading Israel to give it “back” to the Palestinians????”

No, NATO invading the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem and giving it “back” to the Palestinians.  Isn’t that what you have endorsed yourself for the better part of a year (without the NATO involvement of course)?  Please tell me the Zionist gene hasn’t kicked in and completely atrophied your mind ITW.

“Of course, you betray yourself by scoffing at the UN and its resolutions, since you ALSO say Israel should abide by 242.”

Of course it should, and again you yourself have endorsed this position.  But seeing as the Resolution is more than 40 years old and was made with no enforcement provisions, then it is as good as useless.

I haven’t flip-flopped on anything ITW.  I have challenged you on 3 occasions now to provide one example of how Israel suffered for it’s crimes more than the Soviets did.  So let’s follow your advice and get back to facts and start with that one shall we.  Name ONE example of Israel being in any way disadvantaged, financially, militarily, diplomatically or territorially for it’s crimes.

You’re far too intelligent to be giving int ot his emotional irrationality ITW.  Will the real ITW pelase come back!!

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By Go Right Young Man, April 7, 2010 at 5:10 am Link to this comment

ITW, - “I feel like I’m arguing with GRYM here,
the way you twist and alter facts, and flat-out
deny the existence of some.”

-

Interestingly enough I largely agree with you on
this thread.  I suppose I have “twisted”” my
facts correctly this time?

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By Go Right Young Man, April 7, 2010 at 4:13 am Link to this comment

I would suggest that this thread is a perfect
example of why the Arab/Israeli conflict
continues after many centuries (not unlike this
thread).  Participants have, basically, chosen
sides and will not, and some cannot, empathize
or countenance with the opposing side.

Shingo and others believe in myths that have
been repeated so many times the myths have
become “facts”.

Example: Myth: Judea and Samaria (the “West
Bank”) and the Gaza Strip are “occupied Arab
territory.”

a) The concept of Palestinian nationhood is a
new one and had not been heard of until after
the Six-Day War (1967), when Israel, by its
victory, came into the administration of the
territories of Judea and Samaria (the “West
Bank”) and the Gaza Strip.

b) All of “Palestine” — east and west of the
Jordan River — was part of the League of
Nations mandate. Under the Balfour Declaration,
all of it was to be the “national home for the
Jewish people.” In violation of this mandate,
Great Britain severed the entire area east of
the Jordan River — about 75% of Palestine — and
gave it to the Arabs, who created on it the
kingdom of Transjordan. When Israel declared
its independence in 1948, five Arab armies
invaded the new country in order to destroy it
at its very birth. They were defeated by the
Israelis. The Transjordanians, however,
remained in occupation of Judea and Samaria
(the “West Bank”) and East Jerusalem. They
proceeded to drive all Jews from those
territories and to systematically destroy all
Jewish houses of worship and other
institutions. The Transjordanians (now renamed
“Jordanians”) were the occupiers for nineteen
years. Israel regained these territories
following its victory in the Six-Day War.

c) Arabs living within the West Bank and Gaza
are not legally allowed to immigrate to
neighboring Arab nations and are forced to live
on abject poverty by some of the wealthiest per
capita nations on the globe.  Arab nations
have, for decades, refused to build schools,
hospitals, or centers for commerce ion these
areas.

d) What was once Palestine is now Jordan.  70%
of Jordanians identify themselves as
“Palestinian”.

e) For thousands of years men have found
themselves at war.  For thousands of years the
victors administered to the land which was won
by battle.  Shingo believes this is wrong and
Israel must abide by the “new (contemporary)
rules” of war.

As I write the sun is about to rise again in the East.  The ambient light can already be seen shining toward the West.  I now have my doubts that this will ever change. While I’m not yet convinced; it may be time to find a different explanation for this phenomena and end my condemnation of the Jewish State.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 7, 2010 at 4:01 am Link to this comment

She,

I must have my settings different than you, because I’m only on page 3 here or I’d be long gone! smile

Shingo:

You don’t think the boycott of the Arab world, the condemnations by China, the MILITARY support the Soviet Union gave Israel’s enemies, the UN Resolutions mean ANYTHING????  The support of Hezbollah by Syria and Iran are nothing?  The effort by the Arab world to slowly convince the REST of the world that Israel is the new Nazi Germany and they are poor, peaceful, freedom-loving people (without one true democracy among them)?

What WOULD mean something to you—NATO invading Israel to give it “back” to the Palestinians????

Of course, you betray yourself by scoffing at the UN and its resolutions, since you ALSO say Israel should abide by 242.  Why, if the UN is meaningless?  Or is it only “meaningless” when it supports your argument to be meaningless?

You flip-flop on facts far too much.  You need to learn to let facts dictate your opinion, and not alter facts to fit it.

I feel like I’m arguing with GRYM here, the way you twist and alter facts, and flat-out deny the existence of some.

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By Shingo, April 6, 2010 at 11:03 pm Link to this comment

Shen,

It’s a sure sign of madness when you speak of yourself in the 3rd person.

Many pages ago, you made the statement that all wars were about defence.  I can go back and search for it it you like.  Anyway, I asked you repeatedly to qualify if this meant that Germany’s invasion of Poland was an act of defence and you refused to answer, so I took that as a yes.

“When I pointed out the travesty of the Thai killed by a rocket fired from Gaza, Shingo, instead of expressing remorse, gave a strawman argument that three Palestinians youths were killed by the
Israelis.”

That’s a lie Shen.

I stated that the death if the Thai worker was a tragedy and then asked that if one death is a travesty, then surely the deaths of 4 Palestinians was an even greater travesty.  You then feigned outrage that I would make such a proposition, because you Shen, are loathed to admit that killing Arabs is a bad thing. It was you Shen, that refused to express one iota of remorse for innocent
victims.

I never disputed that firing rockets at civilians was a crime.

“Tell us then, Shingo, how has Palestinians, Hamas, Hezbollah, been held to account for it’s crimes?”

Multiple ways.  For a start, because Hamas and Hezbollah are listed a terrorist groups by the State department, and they are not eligible recipients of charities in the US, whereas Israel is the recipient of massive donations.

“Shall we start listing all those killed criminally by suicide bombers over the decades since a crime never ceases to be a crime?”

Sure, you can start anywhere you like, because the numbers killed criminally by suicide bombers over the decades is but a fraction of those killed criminally by Israeli F-16’s and Apache helicopters.

Of course, unlike suicide attacks which ended in 2006, Palestinians continue to be killed criminally by Israel.
I do take my hat off to you for correcting LSL’s deranged rantings however.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 6, 2010 at 10:30 pm Link to this comment

Now I know you are demented Shingo.  Shingo says: “Not at all. 
There was no legitimacy for the invasion of Poland, though strangely
enough, Shen seems to believe it was an act of defence on Germany’s
part. That was my very point.  Just because the concept of War Crimes
and international law at the time, doesn’t mean those actions were
legitimate, let alone morally sound.”


Shenonymous says: “Shen has said nothing about Germany, nothing
about the invasion of Poland.”  You are flailing and falling flat on your
face with your bald faced lies.  Get a grip.

Then Shingo contradicts his basic beliefs, Shingo says:  “This is
absurd on multiple counts. No crime ceases to be a crime on the basis
that a more extreme violation was perpetrated by another and most
importantly, Israel has NEVER been held to account for it’s crimes
anyway.
  When I pointed out the travesty of the Thai killed by a
rocket fired from Gaza, Shingo, instead of expressing remorse, gave a
strawman argument that three Palestinians youths were killed by the
Israelis.  The question was about the lethality of the rockets.  So the
crime of killing an innocent does not cease to be a crime since the
rocket was launched purposefully.  Whether or not it killed a Thai or an
Israeli is even besides the point.  The point was Shingo’s
psychopathology for not expressing one iota of remorse for an innocent
victim.  It is irrelevant to the crime of killing the innocent Thai that
three Palestinian youths were killed.  Tell us then, Shingo, how has
Palestinians, Hamas, Hezbollah, been held to account for it’s crimes? 
Shall we start listing all those killed criminally by suicide bombers over
the decades since a crime never ceases to be a crime?

Liquor Store Larry - It is not my intention to enter into a conflict with
you!  In agreement with you, I am one who strongly criticizes Islamic
abuses of female children and the murder of rape victims.  As a matter
of fact, I am the only one who exposes this repulsive code of behavior. 
I do not know about the disgusting conduct with infant daughters.  I
have not run across that in the literature.  Arranged marriages of
children is not limited to the Islamic culture.  European royalty was
noted for betrothing progeny for the purpose of strengthening their
respective houses.  But consummation of such marriages would be a
depraved perversion.  I’ve made statements twice before on this very
forum about the ugly manifestations of what I consider contemptible
and debased treatment of the females. Your comment directed to me
April 6 at 11:21pm is ill-considered.

ITW, this forum has entered page 9 on this forum.  Page 4 was quite
some time ago.  I am not implying that you should leave the forum. 
You have provided valuable historical and political material.

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By Shingo, April 6, 2010 at 9:37 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

Here’s the problem with your argument.  You are basing it on the assumption that Israel has at come point since 1948, been held accountable for it’s actions by the international community.  Until you can demonstrate when this has happened, you have no argument.

“You all miss the point: The Soviet Union AFTER THE WAR HAD ENDED, ethnically cleansed the Eastern third of Poland, and did the same to Germany, moving Poland Westward.  This is well-documented and not subject to reasonable dispute.”

No one is missing that point ITW.  Israel has continued ethnically cleanse Palestine since 1948.  Just look at the before and after maps.

“The United States and Europe did NOTHING to stop the displacement of millions, solely due to Stalin’s desire to expand the Soviet Union.  Nothing.”

And what did the United States and Europe do stop the ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians?  Nothing.

“Had there been a UN the Security Council would have done nothing as the SU would have vetoed any action.”

And today, the UN, which does exist, does nothing as the US vetoes any action.

“Nobody did ANYTHING and TO THIS DAY all of those millions are displaced.”

This is starting to sound like an echo chamber, but here goes.  TO THIS DAY all of those hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and their families are displaced.

Are we seeing a pattern here ITW?

“You can pretend that the world doing nothing about the Soviet actions is totally unrelated to the world condemning Israel, but it is, in fact, a textbook example of the double standard being applied.”

There’s no pretending, because apart from a few mealy-mouthed UN resolutions condemning the displacement of Palestinians (which Israel can flout with impunity) , the world has done absolutely nothing about it.

The only one being irrational ITW is you.  Israel has paid the same price for it’s policies that the SU did. 

Absolutely nothing.

The only difference is that Israel has perpetrated it’s crimes after the UN was created, who’s purpose was precisely to prevent the crimes that Israel has been perpetrating ever since it was created.

When all is said an done, your complaint comes down to one simple reality.  Because the UN was around when Israel came into being, Israel gets occasional bad press.

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By Shingo, April 6, 2010 at 9:11 pm Link to this comment

“A people who’s culture promotes apatheid, segregation, ethnic cleansing,  mass murder, flouts international law, and which has become the epicentre for sexual slavery and the harvesting of human organsn “demonizes” itself.

“Maybe being the equivocating moral relativist you are, you can show me the “beauty” of molesting children.”

After you can show me how murdering children and allowing your military to use them for target practice is any less beautiful.

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By Shingo, April 6, 2010 at 9:05 pm Link to this comment

“Most A-rab refugees have no historical tie to the land of “Israel.”

False on all counts. First of all , there is no such thing as “the land of Israel”.

Jews were a minority in Palestine until ethnic cleansing of 1948 by Israel.

The Palestinian population grew because of rapid population growth, not in-migration, which was minor.

The UN has never made any statement to suggest that most Palestinian refugees have no historical tie to Palestine.

“The whole idea of a Palestinian nation and a Palestinian people is an invention of Arab propaganda.”

Wrong.  The whole idea of a Palestinian nation and a Palestinian people goes back to when the Ottoman Empire was driven out of Palestine and Britain promised the Palestinians independence.

“Arafat himself was an Egyptian.”

Ben Gurion himself was a Polish.  Your point?

“The only people to have lived continuously on the land “from time immemorial” are Jews.”

False.  There is no historical or archaeological records to prove it, and furthermore, Tel Aviv University scholar Shlomo Zand has proven that the Jews that remained after the Roman wars converted to Islam and Christianity.

“So many others have conquered, ruled, thrived and
ultimately perished there that the list would take hundreds of pages.”

From the Old Testament yes, not from historical records.

“A mere sample would include: Byzantines, Persians, Arabs, Turks, Circassians, Kurds, Abbassids (Iraqis), Egyptians, Kharezmians (Genghis Khan), Mamluks, Mongols, Latins (Crusaders), Ottomans, French and English.”

Interestingly, there are remains of all these empires and none of the so called Kingdom of Israel.

“It is not and never was “Palestinian land.””

Nor was there an Israeli land, until 1948 of course.
Nice try though!

A few quotes to chew on from Zionists:

In 1923, Ze’ev Jabotinsky wrote of how Palestinians really felt about their attachment to Palestine:

“They look upon Palestine with the same instinctive love and true favor that Aztec looked upon Mexico or any Sioux looked upon his prairie. Palestine will remain for the Palestinians not a borderland, but their birthplace, the center and basis of their own national existence.” (Righteous Victims, p. 36)

In a book Ben-Gurion published in 1931 (titled: We and Our Neighbors), he admitted that Palestinian Arabs had the same rights as Jews to exist in Palestine. He stated:

“The Arab community in Palestine is an organic, inseparable part of the landscape. It is embedded in the country. The [Palestinian] Arabs work the land, and will remain.” Ben-Gurion even held that the Palestinian Arabs had full rights in Palestine, “since the only right by which a people can claim to possess a land indefinitely is the right conferred by willingness to work.” They had the same opportunity to establish that right as the Zionists did. (Shabtai Teveth, p. 5-6)

In February 1937, Ben-Gurion was on the BRINK of a far reaching conclusion, that the Arabs of Palestine were a separate people, distinct from other Arabs and deserving of self-determination. He stated:

“The right which the Arabs in Palestine have is one due to the inhabitants of any country . . . because they live here, and not because they are Arabs . . . The Arab inhabitants of Palestine should enjoy all the rights of citizens and all political rights, not only as individuals, but as a national community, just like the Jews.” (Shabtai Teveth, p. 170)

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