Fat Freddy, August 16 at 8:35 am,

I am not interested in a misplaced effort at pedantic parsing to establish blame in support of one person’s or another’s greedy self interests.

I am interested in having an economic system of Social Capital and Socialized Capitalism that can compete with Private Capital and Privatized Capitalism.

If you had read what I have posted with regard to Social Capital and Socialized Capitalism, you would know that I am NOT for State Control of Social Capital and Socialized Capitalism; what I advocate in this respect is independent institutions ran by Boards of Directors and Operating Officers that are responsible to the level of their establishment, i.e., Federal, state, county, city, or community, so that the people at the level of the institution’s origin become the investors; and the Board of Directors, and Management become responsible to the people directly as investors, rather than the Government.

Whatever it is that you are talking about, it must mean something to you, because you stated what you had to say with great authority, as if it applied to my proposal, but it does not have anything at all to do with my proposal regarding Social Capital and Socialized Capitalism.

ThomasG,

First of all, your inappropriate use of bold print, does not impress me. Please stop if you wish me to read your comments.

I am not talking about welfare for banksters. I am talking about the way the banking system has been operating in this country for the past 100+ years. Fractional reserve lending is fraudulent. Fiat currency (money which is backed by nothing) is also fraudulent. These two things are the foundation of our banking system. Fraud. Then when you add: manipulation of interest rates, legalized accounting fraud, and legalized counterfeiting, you get an entire economy built on nothing but fraud. All of this fraud has the full blessing of the US government.

So, if the government allows banks to operate fraudulently, why would you think a government run bank would do any less? It would most likely be operated on the exact same fraudulent practices that commercial banks operate. Plus, it would have even more disadvantages. Almost all government run enterprises suffer from a few things. Too much internal bureaucracy. A friend of mine worked as a mail sorter for the US Postal system. There is one supervisor for every three employees. Second, these government run enterprises offer limited services, and are too slow to respond to market changes, and demands. And finally, there is little incentive to expand services. Most likely, the services offered would be a “one-size-fits-all”, which is indicative of most government run programs and services.

I read the articles you posted about the ND bank. From what I understand, is that they seem to have found a niche market, providing a type of alternative financing for people who would not normally qualify for a loan from a commercial bank. Sometimes, that can be a good thing, sometimes bad. The bank was capitalized by state bonds. Bonds which the taxpayers are on the hook for if the bank were to fail, instead of private shareholders.

Yes, you are correct that many commercial banks are sitting on huge reserves. There are two reasons for this. One, since 2006, the Federal Reserve has been paying interest on capital reserves. So, the banks are making money on their reserves without having to do anything. That interest is paid, of course, with freshly minted currency. Whenever the Federal Reserve prints money, it devalues everybody else’s currency. It’s a back door tax. Second, many of these banks are holding toxic, mortgage backed assets. Thanks to pressure from the US Congress, the Financial Standards Accounting Board (FASB) has suspended rule (157) which is mark-to-market. The banks are allowed to mark all of those toxic assets at face value, instead of the $0.20 on the dollar that they are really worth. Eventually, those assets will mature, and the banks will have no choice but to write down the losses. So, they are sitting on reserves to eventually cover those losses.

Socialized capital on a national scale is not the answer. It will shift all of the burden of risk to the tax payer. The tax payer already has too much burden of risk as it is. Tell me, do you really want some overworked, underpaid, government bureaucrat deciding whether or not you qualify for a car loan? If you are denied, then what? There’s no place left to go, except your parents.

Fat Freddy, August 15 at 11:46 am,

You are apparently talking about “Welfare for the Banksters”.

Social Capital and Socialized Capitalism is an Economic System that can and will compete with Private Capital and Private Capitalism for market share. 

Google the Bank of North Dakota and you should start to get an idea of the importance of Social Capital and Socialized Capitalism.  Also, Google Truthdig’s “Troy Jollimore on Markets and Morality”.

FYI, much was said about “investor confidence” on ABC’s “This Week with Christiane Amanpour”  http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/  and that being the reason for Private Capitalists hoarding trillions of dollars of capital surplus that is preventing the U.S. Economy from making a recovery.

Private Capital and Privatized Capitalism is holding the United States as a nation hostage, because Private Capital has monopoly control of the U.S. Economy by way of trillions of dollars of Private Capital and Privatized Capitalism that is absent competition from Social Capital and Socialized Capitalism that functions to balance the interests of the Private GREED of Private Capital and Privatized Capitalism with Social Benefit from Social Capital and Socialized Capitalism.

With regard to the capital surplus of trillions of dollars that is NOT being reinvested by Privatized Capitalism, because of what they claim to be a “lack of confidence” by Private Capitalists, this problem will disappear when Private Capital and Privatized Capitalism have to compete with Social Capital and Socialized Capitalism for the survival of Private Capital and Privatized Capitalism; without Social Capital and Socialized Capitalism, Private Capital and Privatized Capitalism has no incentive to reinvest its hoarded capital surplus.

When Social Capital and Socialized Capitalism is institutionalized on a National scale, and Private Capital and Privatized Capitalism has to compete with Social Capital and Socialized Capitalism for its own survival, Privatized Capitalism will, in the pursuit of its own survival, reinvest its hoarded capital, or be faced with losing its markets to Social Capital and Socialized Capitalism, an event that will herald the decline and death of Private Capital and Privatized Capitalism.

Bonito… “if a mere 2% percent of the population
holds title to 90% of the wealth of this country,
then I would have to believe in all fairness, that
the same 2% should pay 90% of the taxes.”

I’ve never heard the argument expressed like that before. Well said!

“Are we Americans, so disconnected from a personal sense of our own History as a people…” A nice call-to-arms, RedHorse.

If we truly admire the founders and the foundation of America, then we must trust the system of government they established. A system that makes the solution so simple, and so possible.

Participate. Vote.

Start a new party, if you can wait a few generations to build a network of “honest” people to represent hundreds of millions and the world’s leading economy.

Or take over one already established and compatible with your interests.

Of the two parties, Democrats are closer to our ideals, and we’ve already managed to infuse it with a significant number of representatives who directly echo our ideas and values.

So, do it again. Elect more of them. Heck, run for office yourself, just don’t throw up your arms and succumb to the propaganda of the “have’s” that all representatives are the same, so why bother voting. America is “broken” so stay home.

The parties are NOT the same. Not by a long shot. Pelosi is as different and superior to Boehner as Obama is to Hitler. And Reid is more apt to move our agenda than McConnell ever will. The same applies down the line to governors, state, and local representatives.

The revolution is happening right now. It started two years ago. Keep up. Don’t stop.

FAT FRED

    The word “Dixie” comes from the old ten dollar “Dixie Note” issued by the Bank of New Orleans (when many banks issued their own currency). One side was English and the other French. Dix being the French word for ten. The bill was recognized and acceptrd as solid, up and down the entire Mississippi River. Hence the slang,“Dixie”.

    Because many National Banks, supported by the lobby controlled Federal Reserve, enter communities with the strict intent of predatory looting, your comment on the Vineland Bank strikes a chord for community power. In fact, many States have no power over Nationally Chartered Banks at all, and the recourse of asking the Federal Reserve for help is fruitless. I bank locally.

    You are correct, that most of us don’t understand banking, and as recent events have illustrated, looting and destruction of American lives and finance by banks, is openly sanctioned by Washington. I continue to feel that, because of its’ willing corruption, National Government, whatever its’ intent, has forfeited all actual relationship to the American People. Forget them. They are a waste of power and attention. Your example is exactly the kind of citizen action America needs.

Is congress subsdizing slackers?___YES! Themselves and all the corporate welfare that goes along with it.

Thanks THOMAS G.!! Enjoyed it.

    There is an abundence of great American thought and rational pro-Democratic humanist discussion, despite the enforced corporate MSM “dumbdown”.

    I appreciate TRUTHDIG and its’ attempts to reflect progressive thought and encourage dialogue. Much of American reality is woven through, with propagandist disinformation, intended to exploit superstitious fear and loathing. Add time demands and the extreme pressures of present economic reality, and it’s pretty easy to see how beaten and numb the American psyche is.

    So much of this manufactured corporate fascist reality and its’ inhabitants, is irrelevant to sane political/economic action and stands as such a roadblock to a successful American future, it is a trap and loss of personal power to discuss them. Perhaps, at our best, we are attempting to experience and define, a new American reality, that can unite and transcend the apocalyptic future being offered.

      I enjoyed the insights into Adam Smith. Thanks again, and KEEP ROCKIN’.

ThomasG

We already have socialized banking in this country. What do you think JP Morgan Chase is? JPM can borrow money from the Federal Reserve’s discount window (freshly printed money created out of thin air) at 0.0-0.25% interest, and use it to buy long term Treasury Bills at 3-4% interest. You want some of that action? I know I would.

That’s just the tip of the iceberg. If people really understood how our government already controls and manipulates the markets and big banks, there would be revolution. But, most people do not understand monetary policy, much less what fiat currency, or fractional reserve lending is.

This is what we need more of:

Under the leadership of Principal Organizers Dominic J. Romano and William J. Hallissey, an organizing group of 27 members representing real estate, finance, construction, manufacturing, agriculture and charitable interests was created in late 2005 with a single objective: to establish a community bank whose focus would be entirely on the businesses and families of Vineland and the surrounding South Jersey community. 

That initial group of 27 soon grew to an investor base of over 400 stockholders, nearly all of whom live and work in the Cumberland County and adjoining South Jersey community.  Capital Bank’s $20 million initial public offering (IPO) set a record for a new South Jersey bank, and was indicative of the success the new institution would enjoy.

http://www.capitalbanknj.com/about/history.html

I can tell you, of the few commercial, small businesses that are currently under construction in South Jersey, most, if not all of them are being financed by Capital Bank. Everything from a Dunkin Donuts franchise to a Sikh Church.

Of the 8100 banks in this country, only four control 50% of all assets, and 40% of all deposits. These banks would never be able to survive without direct government involvement. And you want to give the government even more control? How, by eliminating the middle man?

Take a little time and read former Chairman of the Independent Community Bankers Association (ICBA), Terry Jorde’s testimony to Congress. This is how we should begin to clean up America’s banks, but it will never happen. Why? Because America’s biggest banks are socialized institutions, funded with socialized capital.

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/hearing/financialsvcs_dem/jorde031709.pdf

REDHORSE, August 14 at 5:22 pm,

Social Capital and Socialized Capitalism is the answer.

Google Truthdig thread, “Troy Jollimore on Markets and Morality”.

The “company store”, indentured servitude model, used to enslave and impoverish labor, as it exploits natural resources without regard to environmental or social consequence, is a founding principle of the European Corporatist, who established the Nation. (King George held the European Corporate Charter for tobacco.)

      Are we Americans, so disconnected from a personal sense of our own History as a people, that having built the greatest economy in the world, we will allow our Country to be looted, social infrastructure destroyed, and lives impoverished, while being told we are “lazy slackers”.

      No question, that “—We the people—” are reeling, and we know who’s throwing the punches. The rage that fuels many of the threads here speaks to the intentional chaos created by the fascist feudalist now destroying our future. We’ve come to far together, and men and women of all colors have paid to large a price in blood and bone, to allow organized criminals to dictate terms of surrender. We do not fear work or poverty. It is tyranny they offer.

      I urge you to reconnect with yourself. Take a moment and read some Thomas Paine or indulge yourself in a brief history of the Battle of Kings Mountain. The “net” can take you there in seconds. You can do it in less than ten minutes. Remember YOU!!

      KNUTE/GERARD: You’re such badasses!! Bow wow wow wow wow. LOL

bonito - Not only are rich corporations moving jobs
overseas, they’re moving themselves overseas.

Whoever said that capitalism, when true to its
principles must make profits as close to the poison
line as possible was telling the truth in more ways
than one.  If you, corporation, pollute in the US,
you have to pay a fine.  If you pollute in another
country, the cost is directly borne by the people of
that country.

Not enough that we’re exporting death and destruction
by bombing and blowing up people and infrastructures,
we’re also exporting our pollution.

Bush II
  lets blame it all on you.
  Bush II

  Because can’t you see
  Elections comin round again
  and Democrats have bad policy to defend.

  So Bush II , hope ur shoulders are big
  You did this all by ur self,
  But weren’t the Democrats in on this gig?????????????
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

First, and if,  A mere 2% percent of the population
holds title to 90% of the wealth of this country,
then I would have to believe in all fairness, that
the same 2% should pay 90% of the taxes.

Now most of the Republican Senators and Congressmen
believe it would be a crime against Nature to take
care of the unemployed workers through no fault of
their own find themselves out of work, while, at the
same time are very much opposed to allowing the Tax
breaks that Bush 2 passed to further enrich the
already rich to become even richer, expire.

Those misguided Americans who believe that someday
soon good paying jobs will return, are living in a
fools paradise. Those jobs are now in foreign
countries, the incentive is for the rich Corporations
to export jobs, (via tax credits) not import them.
Instead what will be created are non-union jobs
paying a little more than minimum wage, and if you
don’t like that then by all means migrate to China,
Mexico, Japan, or even Taiwan, to try to get your job
back.

And what do the economists say of the effect to unemployment by the 1.8 trillion in corporate profit sitting on the sidelines awaiting reassurance from the consumer middle-class that it safe to rehire? That feedback loop is fit for knut cases.

“we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”

Who runs this chicken-sh_t game?

By ofersince72, August 12 at 9:54 pm Link to this comment

  Yes indeed, themselves, and the
MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX
AGRI-BUSINESS
HEALTH CARE INSURANCE COMPANIES
need I go on???$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

+1

Aren’t you ashamed to live in this racist, brutal, nasty country?  I am.

Being a small business owner, and not eligible for unemployment when my workload slows, I’ll try to make an unbiased comment. First of all, I’ve only been in business for 6 years. For 30 years I worked in construction and collected unemployment several times during the slow Winter months. I can tell you, nobody likes collecting unemployment. We used to call it unenjoyment. Second, if we did get work during the winter, it was usually under the table. As soon as the weather broke in the Spring, we were all back to work. That’s what is referred to as “seasonal workers”.

If people are so concerned that there are people not looking for work, or not taking jobs because they are getting unemployment, how about cutting the weekly benefit rate for those on an extension? Say, 20%? Or maybe make people pay part of it back after they get a job. My question is, why weren’t these things even discussed as possible options?

I have no problem helping people out during an economic downturn, if it’s temporary. Very few things the government does are temporary, however. But please, don’t blow smoke up my ass, and tell me that it’s going to “stimulate” the economy, Mr. Krugman.

Just ask yourself, who probably gets all the employment benefits after they are
received by the unemployed individual. The answer is usually the big corporations
such as oil corp., food corp., electric corp., insurance corp., bank corp., etc., etc.,
blah, blah, blah.

The poor, the middle-class and the sane, are silenced by the corporate MSM. We don’t have mega-millions to by hour long infomercials masquerading as news. The media that was supposed to be our source of information has become as corrupt as our politicians. Poor people can’t come up with hundreds of thousands of dollars to bribe politicians to legislate for us and in our best interest.

While cities and counties are sliding into the dark ages, plowing up roads they can no longer afford to maintain, turning off street lights in some neighborhoods and cancelling bus services, billions of our tax dollars build roads and infrastructure in foreign countries after billions are spent by us to destroy them.

Meanwhile back at MSM land, the major stories are,

a Muslim community center in NY

racial profiling laws aimed at Hispanics

gay marriage in CA

abortion

None of these issues speak to the real problems of our Country. None of these issues will replace century old waste/water systems or crumbling bridges. These are red herrings to keep us properly outraged at someone else while the real culprits laugh their collective asses off all the way to their offshore bank.

Politicians apologize to BP for our sea water fouling their oil and the outrageous notion that they are to pay for the damage. They look right into the camera and say giving a 700bil tax break to the rich by cutting food stamps, public assistance, unemployment and social security, is the right thing to do and anything else will destroy our Country.

And those most affected by their betrayal still rally around them and vote them into office again and again.

What is a person to do if they lose their job, lose their home, run out of or are inelligeble for welfare and have nowhere left to go?

Is Congress Subsidizing Slackers ??

  Yes indeed, themselves, and the
MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX
AGRI-BUSINESS
HEALTH CARE INSURANCE COMPANIES
need I go on???$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

The answer is yes—and the slackers are private capital and privatized capitalism—TARP.

I have no problem being material poor, but the world has to adjust. Those who have can’t fathom being taxed at a higher rate than the less fortunate while they keep their stranglehold on the economy for their own benefit. Roll back pricing to the 1950’s and I don’t mean by percentage adjustment. Silly suggestion of course, but that wouldn’t be considered anyway. You can’t be material wealthy/secure unless you reduce the rest to poverty. Pricing/value can’t keep rising, it has to adjust just as real estate prices have to. Hawaii has gone thru this for some time now when property values topped out and nobody could afford homes or land. I don’t feel for the realtors or the people who bought at those prices and now must adjust(!). It all points straight to greed. Drop those prices, for everything, and jobs will be created and we won’t need your rich-ass tax raise.

I have to sound off here for a minute on the pervasive idea called “meritocracy” that is associated with Obama and his appointees—people who think those who get good educations, work hard and hold positions of power have “earned” an “expertise” that “deserves” honor, attention, and success.  It probably stems from the “Puritan ethic” associated with Calvinism in early America.
  The word “deserve” occurs in these TD comments too often not to be troubling.  It seems to mean that God (Christianity?) sifts out those who “deserve” “success” and is responsible for them rising to the top in society.  Conversely, the “poor” (who are “always with us etc.”) are poor because they “deserve” it and don’t “deserve” welfare.
  And when the End Times come, those who “deserve” to be “saved” will be “raptured up” and the rest of us will be destroyed. 
  Perhaps the more sophisticated, better educated people who hold this “meritocracy” idea do not go for the religious aspect of it, but certainly it figures in the mind-set of the ruling elite of America. They wouldn’t be able to steal from the poor so blithely and consistently if they believed the poor “deserved” a decent life.
  The idea of “merit” is a fundamental underpinning of capitalism and that won’t change until the under-class exerts its rights as human beings who are equally “deserving” of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Stop questioning workers motives.  They did not create this economic catastrophe.  It was created by bankers and insurance companies.  The money helping people is such a small fraction of the money helping the banks and insurance companies that it should not be presented here.  Lean on the banks, that’s where the great moral hazard lies.  Ask why the federal government provides money to banks and then borrows it back at higher interest rates.  What’s up with that?  Politicians and bankers are criminals and crooks.  Lay off the people or the people will start laying on you.

Only a misanthrope could find phrases like “the risk of underwriting loafing” to equate with unemployment insurance.  And worry about unemployed workers
“gaming the system.”

The people gaming the system for billions in returns are conniving corporations and money lenders.

Why does anybody gag at the gnat of extended unemployment insurance and swallow the Wall Street bailout whole?  Are we all totally mad?

Having spent a number of years in Sweden, where everyone is entitled to receive much more generous social support, the self-serving justification that “beefed-up benefits encourage people not to work” propounded by the coddled corporate interests that own our government is definitively proved to be the lie that it is.  The facts are, even with the generous benefits the Swedes receive, they are hardly slackers.  Most want more than to live on the “bare minimum”, are not satisfied with just getting by.
A much greater “moral hazard” is the unwillingness of our “leaders” to enforce the law, or to hold corporations or government officials accountable. 

“Our upside down welfare state is “socialism for the rich, free enterprise for the poor.” The great welfare scandal of the age concerns the dole we give rich people.”

“Those in power are blind devotees to private enterprise. They accept that degree of socialism implicit in the vast subsidies to the military-industrial-complex, but not that type of socialism which maintains public projects for the disemployed and the unemployed alike.”
(William O. Douglas, former U.S. Supreme Court Justice, 1969)

There’s still a belief out here that if you don’t
have a job it’s because you’re lazy, indolent, and a
bad person in general.  Crazy?  Yeah, but the notion
has been around a long time. 

It works this way.  God rewards the good - makes them
rich, employed, happy, and moral.  God punishes the
bad - makes them poor, unemployed, miserable and full
of sin.  The Puritans believed it.  Fundamentalists
believe it.

And as far as gaming systems go, if I remember
correctly the financial sector did a bang up job of
gaming the financial system.  Not only did they get
away with it, they got rewarded.  $700 billion ain’t
hay.

Sorry for being redundant.

I hate Marcus, and can’t believe TD pays her to write here. 

In good times, all unemployment benefits do is pay for the barest minimum of needs (at those with a job loss of over $100,000 the very most benefits pay for the high earners is $380 a week, an average salary of $39,000 pays $240).  It gives people the time to choose a comparable job with comparable pay, and maintain some dignity in their lives.

To hell with those making a quarter of million dollars a year (Marcus) telling people, who were making $39,000 a year, to accept the first minimum wage job they can get, and work for $17,000 a year.  Let me tell you, it wouldn’t even pay for childcare.

If you can live on unemployment benefits, you deserve a bonus for creative financing.

Ruth Marcus is a right-wing idiot.

It should be noted, as it was by Rudy Giuliani back when he worked for the Justice Department of Ronald Reagan, that unemployment is “earned” and that “acceptance of such benefits does not make one a public charge.” You see Mr. 9/11’s memorandum on the matter @
http://historyanarchy.blogspot.com/2010/07/some-republican-sanity-on-unemployment.html