Shenon, - “What one believes depends massively on the kind of mental furniture a person is both equipped with and acquires from indoctrination and experience.”

-

Amen.

I think we had better hope you are proven wrong in several ways. If Occupy has no core beliefs, no small group out front making those beliefs known, I believe we’ll see Occupy splinter in several directions and fade away completely. - Unless, of course, we see more rocks, concrete, blood and urine thrown about. Those things will ensure media attention.

I offer this free-flowing -horizontal- thread as clear evidence of wide fractures in views, direction, and the possible goals of Occupy. Most would say “Leaderless”, yes? - I believe Lee to be far too gullible on this point.

For my part I’ll hope the anarchists (ws.org) who began OWS will be circumvented and minimized within the demonstrated hierarchy. Maybe then Occupy may grow into a real movement. A lasting and effective movement. A movement that looks very different from the 82% white and 1.8% black crowds we reportedly see today.

-

What is it most here imagine is going on within these Occupy Councils? My mind imagines everyone here. Interesting prospect, yes?

If we choose leaders, call them directors if you like, to bring us together I’m in for both lee and ardee taking up the task. Chris Hedges and Amy Goodman can advise them. We’ll see how we may come together.

Cliff Carson, November 30 at 1:39 pm:
’... Could the same things that Crazy Tom did be occurring right now in the Occupy Wall Street Movement?’

I haven’t seen much evidence of it, other than amateur stuff like that fool who invaded a museum in Washington, D.C.  It’s always a possibility, but the collective, ‘horizontal’ procedures of the protesters, and their commitment to nonviolence, make it more difficult to insert and operate provocateurs.  Besides, the authorities don’t need provocateurs; they’ve shown that they can shut down occupations arbitrarily.

Thank you Anarcissie, November 29 at 10:28 pm for a most wonderful link.  It is a good read and got me to thinking about a similar phenomena I believe I have noticed for the last few years.  Possibly many others have noticed it and how it agrees with your link.

Crazy Tom the Provocateur, it seems was an FBI agent who got the confidence of those who were angry at the Government, for some reason or another, and led them into unlawful acts against the Government.  Possibly if not led by him and had resources provided by him they would never have acted as they did.

Some see nothing wrong with our Government using this type of behavior “to protect us” they say.  But is this really something we should condone?

I can’t remember the last time our Homeland Security, CIA, FBI, what have you, has announced how they thwarted a “Terrorist” threat, that didn’t have as the basis, one of their own plants, who encouraged and provided the idea and resources to the would be terrorist in the first place.

Does this ring a bell with any of you?

Could the same things that Crazy Tom did be occurring right now in the Occupy Wall Street Movement?

What one believes depends massively on the kind of mental
furniture a person is both equipped with and acquires from
indoctrination and experience.  Those beliefs run the open
ended spectrum from extreme liberal to extreme conservative
with an infinite variety from both ends through and including
the middle.  Each has a mind outfitted differently. 

Thanks Imax but I record the Charlie Rose show via the TV.  I didn’t
actually get to watch it last evening but I will later this afternoon.  My
preconception however leads me to agree with Leefeller.  It is too
subservient to just believe important stuff without a way to rationally
weigh the information provided.  As I’ve witnessed the OWS phenomenon
I noted that the anarchic impulse to rebel against perceived oppression
(which can come in the form of children rebelling against their parents’
will, or the authorities of a society which includes their government)
always is the beginning of a revolution.  Anarchism is driven by emotions
and it takes emotions to get bodies to act even if there is an intellect at
work.  I just noted a science report at how lazy humans are.  We do not
like to physically act rather like it so much better to let others do the
sweaty stuff big or small.  So if this is human nature, those who do get
motivated, those with overly-developed anarchistic emotions, then large
social get in the change lane mode.  Action often invites and attracts
others who become dazzled by the dynamics that happen as a result of
the energy spent.  There is all kinds of actions associated with
anarchistic movements.  The far left has an extremely violent streak.  The
Right Wing Anarchy groups include extreme poliico/religious, bigotrous
sentiments of the Klan, and Lots of yelling for one thing, then throwing
rocks or bottles, or shooting guns as the Basque in Spain, the Tamil in Sri
Lanka, the Montana Freeman, and various sovereign citizen groups
throughout America. 

See the Black Bloc usually a leftist strategy but also adopted by the
right.  See the wikipedia entry for Black Bloc also:
http://mlcastle.net/raisethefist/bloc.html

I am not pretending the 99 actually represents everybody.  I don’t know
anyone who is conscious that does either.  Far as I know, the 99%ers only
claim to represent the “idea” of 99% of the people who do not qualify to
be economically in the 1% as identified by Government fiscal watchdog
agencies.  1% is a commonly known analog for the very wealthy.  If
someone does not want to be included in that vast group, seems to me
all they have to do is declare they do not belong to the 99.

Far as Charlie Rose’s credentials as an authority goes, or even his guests,
unless it is Carl Sagan, then I have a positive prejudice, but unless it is
him and only him, I have a skeptics view unless facts and figures are
presented (in the Sagan tradition) to hold judgment in reserve for more
of the verifiable truth.  Doesn’t that sound really reasonable?

So Charlie Rose is connecting poor little old tiny-minority dirty-hippie anarchism with the currently hot critique of wealth and power inequality in the U.S. on television?  In front of everybody??

Amazing.  Maybe the revolution will be televised after all.

Lee, - “Occupy dost not have any leaders”?

-

Really, Lee? That is your honest assessment? I find your gullibility and naivete astonishing.

Well, regardless, it’s certainly not worth “bickering” over.

A little Imax!

How dost this work, make shit up than believe in it or is one to just believe in shit?  Imax your stupidity supersedes itself with energizer bunnyness! 

So now Charlie Rose had leaders of Occupy on and they are saying this is what Occupy is all about so as the Gangrape states there is no 99 percent, there is no disenfranchisement and of course no inequality.

Occupy dost not have any leaders, the genius is in the reality of the facts, not the crap one wants or wishes it to be.

Sadly we as a people are doomed I say, DOOMED because Imax may be only the tip of the Iceberg,... do they have Icebergs in Texas?

Shenon,

You may find last night’s Charlie Rose program interesting.

I found the program solidifying in many ways. Particularly how both journalists interviewed, Mattathias Schwartz and John Heilmann, each having interviewed leaders of the Occupy organization as it is today, found that Occupy is, they believe, populated by anarchists. They do, however, disagree on the main focus. They both agree that the leaders of Occupy are “radical” (not representative of the population as a whole) and hold very radical views and goals.

We honestly do need to stop pretending these protests represent the views of 99% of the American public.

The link below, if you visit the site today, will open the interview immediately.

http://www.charlierose.com/

I made up a new meme!
You Can Flush the Toilet, But Will That Stop the Shit?

Okay, getting more serious, a reply to IMax, Nov. 30 5:48 am – Sortof

Yeah, I saw that at their site.  But all protests are not anarchistic. 
Which leads me to segue to put my spin on “anarchist principles.”

Without too much ado or overly powdered, anarchism is as I intuit it a
political movement, its aims of which are to bring about what they call
“a genuinely free” society – to qualify it, that is one where humans only
enter those kinds of relations with one another that would not have to
be enforced by the constant threat of violence (even though ludicrously
it always instigates much violence).  Historically, it is seen that vast
inequalities of wealth, institutions like slavery, debt servitude or wage
labor, can only exist if it is supported by a three-dimensional militant
force of armies, prisons, and police.  Anarchists, as I understand them,
who are acclimated to utopian landscapes wish to see human relations
that wouldn’t have to be backed up by armies, prisons and police. 
Anarchism, as I further understand it, pictures a society based on
equality and solidarity, which could exist solely on the free consent of
participants. The problem is that the view is clouded by the false belief
that free human natures collected in any great number could behave in
such idealistic ways. There is no evidence that an aggregate of humans
of any multitude have lived that way. The only one that can be referenced
is the fictional biblical Heaven or other similar lands off planet.

I do not usually attend Chris Hedges’ articles, finding he doesn’t use
reliable references for his opinions, a malady that affect many posters
who are puffed up with patronizing vanity.  I dont’ think his take on
revolutions will yield anything useful.  There are much better writers on
the topic: Eric Hoffer, “True Believer,” Thomas Paine (The American
Crisis), et al (Locke the libertarian, who agreed with Shaftesbury that the
only way to stop Stuart (Charles II) absolutism was rebellion and was the
author of “seditious” pamphlets. Shaftesbury was the king’s most
dangerous opponent, and Locke was his sidekick.  Others? Jefferson, oh
yes, the perennial revolutionist, Voltaire, and we certainly must not
forget “The Persecution and Assassination of Jean-Paul Marat as
Performed by the Inmates of the Asylum of Charenton under the
Direction of Monsieur de Sade.”  May we laugh again?  hahaha
Oh f’sure, don’t forget Trotsky, and more recently, and most dramatic
for a Middle Easterner, check out (google it) A Note of Warning and
Encouragement for Egyptians by an Iranian writer who lived through the
1979 Revolution, Abbas Milani back in January.

Occupy does not appear to mean it will live in the physical occupy
mode.  Except I do believe it means to occupy in the mental occupy
mode; meaning it is now a mind set to know people have the power and
force as a collective to effect change when oppression of its government
is the condition of its current and most likely realizing it has been their
historic life.  That mindset will direct the thinker’s actions as long as they
live.  I might be wrong in that perception and I welcome “constructive”
criticism.  Destructive criticisms can be planted “where the sun don’t
shine.”  Yeah, I know…that is an obvious defensive remark.

I love Rolling Rock!  Grew up on it in PA and have some in my fridge!  It is
perfect with pizza, but please… do not try to send any Godfather Pizza!  I
think it might be an exaggeration for dough.

Anarcissie, fantastic as it might seem, but maybe not, I agree with your
post of 7:27am completely!  I was laughably bowled over!  I knew of the
beer bottles the Portland Anarchist stashed!  It is such testosterone that
gives anarchy a bad name, but… it does have that element even from its
beginning.

Leefeller,

It’s comforting to see that you’re tired of all the “bickering” on these threads.

Oh, that kind of bucket of rocks.  That makes things much clearer.

Shenonymous—Some of the people who started Occupy Wall Street would call themselves anarchists, or other people would call them that.  I don’t know what that proves; anyone can call anyone anything, and people who call themselves anarchists range from elderly professors of linguistics at MIT to three guys who broke into an abandoned house in Portland, Oregon, and were nursing a bucket of rocks for the revolution.  As with socialism and liberalism the term’s precision has deteriorated quite a bit.  Some young men who call themselves ‘anarchists’ seem to be suffering from testosterone poisoning, and might do better by moving to Penn State where they could riot in the streets regularly to support football and some apparently related activities I won’t mention.

Of the people who occupied Liberty Plaza on September 17th, maybe a large proportion would say they were anarchists or at least radicals.  People who are not radicals tend not to do radical things.  The remarkable thing about Occupy Wall Street was not the action itself, which was like many others, but its resonance with the general public.  I attribute this to Obama’s—and the Democratic Party’s—abandonment of its base.  There was a time when the Democratic Party would have felt called upon to concern itself with massive unemployment, a tidal wave of foreclosures, widespread, egregious malfeasance on the part of bankers, brokers, and other rich people; when it would never have put Social Security on the chopping block.  Not any more.  So you have a large portion of the population wandering around politically and even physically, abandoned by their leaders and heroes, looking for a way out of their predicament.  Some of them showed up at Occupy Wall Street.  These people were largely ‘liberals’ politically, not anarchists, although some of them may be in the process of becoming anarchists now.

I am not a fan of Hedges’s polemical writing.  I think his work is hysterical, vague, and lacking in analysis.  However, I respect the fact that he is willing to go into the streets in support of his beliefs.  I pointed to the Hedges article only because we seemed to be recycling some of that conversation.

Bucket of Rocks!!!!!!

http://www.valencialiquor.com/images/bucket-rocks.jpg

Imax, your moronship; ... “Our aim is to topple existing power structures and forge a major shift in the way we live our lives in the 21st Century.”

This is the Republican mantra all you need to do is substitute the words;  ‘power structures’ to Constitution or Obama!

You are a bucket of rocks and I am sick?

Geebebiz on a cracker. First Occupy was a socialist movement, then it was a pinko commie movement, then it was a homeless movement of unwashed people dedicating on the streets, then it was a fascist movement and now finally for now it is an anarchist movement!

Gangrape pompously announced he wants the anarchists and the president to repudiate the concept of a 99 percent opposed to the 1 percent because it dost not exist in Gangrapes mind apparently as many other things do not exist in his mind except for maybe dollar signs and his Tiffany charge account.

Admitting the fact that the 99 percent does not exist may be a first for the conservatives as a special moment for the concept of right from wrong. So we are seeing the evolution of one of the rights famous half truths,  but in reality a 99 percent truth!

Shenon,

Before these demonstrations began Occupy organizers released the following Mission Statement.

“Our aim is to topple existing power structures and forge a major shift in the way we live our lives in the 21st Century.” - Occupywallstreet.org

Does that sound anarchist to you?

-

I think it’s instructive to revisit “This Is What A Revolution Looks Like.” - Chris Hedges.

On re-reading the article I think it’s notable to keep in mind that Mr. Hedges has been involved with Occupywallstreet from it’s inception.

In my desire to understand anarchy in its alleged purest form, I attended a national meeting of antichrists, which turned out to be a meeting of two Anarchists plus myself as an observer.

Well, the first Anarchist stood up and said to us in a beseechingly dramatic Hedges or even somewhat Shakespearean tone:.... “Spread Anarchy”!

After several minuets and repeating himself the first Anarchist was finally done, then the second Anarchist stood up and said in the same kind of tone but what seemed to take more time;..... “Don’t tell me what to do!”, when it was over they applauded then we went and had coffee where they asked me if I wanted to gather a bucket of rocks!

Geez, not more finger nail on the a chalk bord discussion about Anarchy?

Anarcissie said: “I still want to know, though, why a bucket of rocks isn’t covered by the Second Amendment.”

Hammers are covered by the second amendment too, but breaking windows might not be, even if it is for the holy Occupy Wall Street anarchist cause.

ardee-full-of-$hit wrote,

“Michael Cavlan RN,”

“If you got the story from an article here then you should have no trouble posting a link to it, now should you?”

-

You truly are an idiot. You, somehow, have convinced yourself that you’re the only one on the planet that can read. - The man said he didn’t know how to post a link. You assumed Michael Cavlan was like yourself. A liar. - If you had already found the article he referred to why, you idiot, did you insist it didn’t exist? LMAO!!

You posses a set of balls, though. In six weeks I’ve caught you lying four times. And still you return.

How much more idiotic crap do you have to peddle?

For the obsessed and obsessive Mr. Calvin.

As I do not read the “efforts” of the execrable under rock dwelling IMax I only noted your “thanks to him” for posting what I already noted. Are you really as stupid as he?

My post to you originally:

OWS Organizers Question Intentions Of Secretive Infinity Group” author is Alexander Kelly.

Let us leave the question of how it is even possible that you cannot make a freaking link, Mr. Calvin and note that I inserted the above into Google and found links only to TD articles and your own assertions. Nowhere did I see the name Michael Moore excepting, of course, in your own work.

I guess, in response, the moron posts a link to what I already noted and you, the follower, thank him for exactly what; a failure of reading comprehension. Dumb as a bag of hammers comes to mind.

Three houses of about 150 self-styled anarchists in Oregon or
even the fact of regular meetups, does not a movement in America
with any clout having immediacy make.  Not that there isn’t an
anarchist movement.  It traces its roots to 3rd c. stoicicism and is
worldwide.  But it isn’t a “prenatal” rebellious mindset.

So current anarchists claim to be part of the Occupy wall Street and
there are some paid viewers of the public scene who even say anarchism
is the underlying motivation of the Occupy movement and these are the
ones in opposition to who are popularly called fascist police but who
really only raided the houses where “anarchists” had squattered and who
only gave them a warning for trespassing, hardly fascist tactics!  Not
that the word police doesn’t carry with it a well-founded portrait of
brutality.  But it isn’t always the case.  There are other thinkers of
current politics who argue that it is not necessarily an anarchist
ingredient that originally motivated the Occupiers, and I tend to agree,
but cavalier anarchists have certainly taken the opportunity to use the
anger of the disorganized organization to try to get traction, get
“adopted” for their “cause,”  which is as unspecified as the OWSer’s,
unless it is just the same old same old “against all government”
pantomime.

It is not likely they can affect to much of a degree, maybe a quantum of
annoyance, the mostly white, trendy, gourmet food diet, young
professional urban/suburban yuppie population that makes their home
in Portland, and who really are in control of the city.  They who would
rather bump elbows with other Shakespeare reading club members than
care too much other than raising an eyebrow about those with economic
worries or extreme political views, right…or left, even if these residents
are a conflicted group who have both liberal ideologies along with
economic conservatism.  But anarchists are not needed in Portland, the
Portlanders tend to be individualists already.

Your last comments addressed to me, Anarcissie, Nov. 29 8:37 am were
appreciated and of course I know I can believe what I want as we all can
including you.  I needn’t tell you that after maybe a year ago of debate
about anarchism, it looks as though we each have not moved much from
our respective pedestals. I read the Wikipedia entry way back then and a
few more times since and much other literature as well as visiting a
blogsite that discusses the topic.  Though not a seasoned scholar of
anarchism, and making no claim to know it to any degree beyond
plebian, I have gained some understanding of the perspective as well as
of those who have assimilated and embraced the perspective. 

Not being a fan of Chris Hedges, who is a popstar bloggy newsman, I had
never visited the TD article you extolled until now.  From the looks of it,
Hedges attempted to paint an utter dystopian pessimistic landscape,
indexing everything he could think of and dropping all the classic names
of the doomsayers of humanity, and it is just my hunch, he may not have
left anyone out, in order to give himself a platform from which to judge
that the world is in an armageddon (lower cased on purpose).  Hedges is
chronically melodramatic as are most extremists of any stripe.  Theatric
correctly describes the view of the demeanor of reactionaries and
demonstrative, often violently.  It is an unevolved state of mind, in my
view.  I think it is called filisteismo. 

This forum could be a platform to rehash arguments about anarchism,
since it seems to be fashionable to bring it into sharp focus again.  As
the resident expert, surely you have a concise knowledge and sympathy
with the anarchist view, why don’t you give your perspective on it as well
as how it operates to any significant effect in American society today?

http://occupy.tv/Occupy-Los_Angeles-Live-Stream/

I think I’ll have to say the guys with the bucket of rocks were not professional agents provocateurs.  For one thing, they were busted.  For another, they look pretty ridiculous.  Third, they were not hanging out with and trying to cozy up to cop targets.

Good provocateurs are hard to find.  The provocateur usually cannot be an ordinary cop or agent; he or she has to be a lot like the target group to pass.

If you’re interested in real provocateurs, though, I won’t disappoint you: here’s a good story.  It may even be mostly true.  And if not—‘Si non e vero, e bene trovato.’

I still want to know, though, why a bucket of rocks isn’t covered by the Second Amendment.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/11/28/111128fa_fact_schwartz

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/12/05/111205fa_fact_packer

The media is being shut out of Occupy L.A. tonight, a police raid is suspected to happen under the veil of darkness and a media blackout.. don’t you just love your police state?

The revolution will not be televised, but it will be youtubed and googled… you cannot stop billions of people tired of oppression and money loving politicos…

Put the word out, police brutality will happen tonight in L.A…. and those copper tops will be yet again breaking their oath… not if they even remember what they vowed to uphold, the lackeys.

Anarcissie said: “There is a link to the Wikipedia article on anarchism, too, if you’d prefer something more coherent.”

I prefer something more current:

http://www.kgw.com/news/Police-raid-Portland-homes-taken-over-by-anarchists-134591538.html

Dont worry. Anarcissie will make it all go away with the magic words, “It was agents provocateurs!”

Which as usual, places the blame for these bad Occupy Wall Street events back on my own lap.

Cavlan——far from the worst essay ever published on FDL, but not good.

  You didn’t say anything to show fraud except for that bullshit from Cyr….which
is obviously no more than baseless opinion.

How stupid is it to say that Moore can’t sit around and discuss moves for protest
with some other guys…HE doesn’t get the right to free association?

or must Moore issue a press release, in the name of “transparency”  before
conducting a bull session? 

WHO the fuck is Moore defrauding and how????????

Please refer to my article just published on firedoglake titles “Michael Moore Is A Fraud.”

David Cyr- I quoted you in it..

Grin

Yes all liberals are frauds according to constant crier, why pick on one name? Possibly because it may have some degree or another of notoriety and an alleged threat to those who now feel in charge or control?

Any movement is going to have some degree of friction and posturing, I know this, I sure as hell would not want constant cryer at my side simply because I would not feel comfortable exposing my back.  No give me Michael Moore, at least Moore portrays a bit of smarts!

Cryer and RN make as a team one which disenfranchises those already disenfranchised, not much different from Republican divisiveness far as I can tell. Social denigration seems to become a way of life for those who prefer it to be so!

Any idiot with even a bit of sense would be aware that people will always attempt to gather momentum by talking among themselves to formulate ideas and possibly discuss plans.  This does not make a fraud. Fact is Cryer and RN seem to be the frauds!

Is Michael Moore actually a fraud?  I thought he was pretty overt about his beliefs and intentions.  His intervention in OWS looks to me like typical leader-celebrity behavior, and is at odds with the principles OWS has been professing, but it’s doubtful that Moore understands, much less accepts, those principles.  Rather, he sees an event he can get ahead of, make a movie about, and puff up his own repute with.  He probably thinks those are good things: leadership, publicity and organization for the lowly unwashed, and an eventual return to the One True Church.

Michael Moore Exposed As A Fraud

The article “OWS Organizers Questions Intentions Of Secret Infinity Group” has gone a long way towards exposing Michael Moore as a fraud. David Cyr here- goes to make comments on the nature and depth of that fraudulent behavior.

Just never expect to see an article of that title in TruthDig or even see that interview perspective in Democracy Now with Amy Goodman.

Yes. this can be considered an open declaration.

IMax

Thank you for creating the link for Ardee. Titled “OWS Organizer Question Intention Of Secret Infinity Group.” Some day I will have to have my son show me how to make one of those linky things.

David Cyr- you r analysis of Michael Moore is absolutely spot on. Could not have expressed it better.

Shenonymous, November 28 at 11:26 pm:

The e-decibel of cacophony on this forum has increased to the
10th exponent.  Just take the topic of anarchy which once again
raised one of its hydra heads.

The idea of anarchy as it has been manifested in human society is
actually side-splittingly entertaining.  It always was and most likely
always will be because it is actually a swaddle that keeps otherwise
quickened beings from being assimilated into a society. An anarchic
society will never persist.  ...

You haven’t studied the material, or you’ve forgotten it.  If you go back to, say, http://www.truthdig.com/report/page2/2011_a_brave_new_dystopia_20101227/#377129, and read backwards and forwards from there, I think you can get at least partially caught up.  There is a link to the Wikipedia article on anarchism, too, if you’d prefer something more coherent.  Having written so much blab, I’m not going to further engage religious arguments about anarchy or anarchism.  Believe what you like.

David~~~~” While unruly un-assimilating dark-skinned Americans are shipped off
to gulags..” ~~~~

I guess there must be quite a waiting list to get in because there’s an awful lot of
unruliness round here every week-end and no shortage of revelers.

Do these gulags of which you speak go by another name?  and are there entrance
requirements beyond ” dark-skinned and unruly” ?

So let’s each do a little bit more to change the direction that this Machine has forced us to take.  Be prepared, because the Machine bites and it enjoys biting.

Liberals are always worrying about the possibility that the “wrong” corporate state government officials might misuse the police state apparatus that all corporate (R) & (D) party voters keep voting for.

While unruly un-assimilating dark-skinned Americans are shipped off to gulags, near all of the light-skinned rigorously police themselves and obediently serve the corporate state… with near all those voting regularly voting for its corporate money manufactured Republican and Democrat team.

The sustainability of America’s highly evolved fascism has been most dependent upon the liberal use of mental chains that have proven to be far more effective than metal ones.

Jill Stein for President:

http://www.jillstein.org

Voter Consent Wastes Dissent:

http://chenangogreens.org/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=498&Itemid=1

Little steps taken to distort then bigger ones to destroy liberty,... when they have completed their task they will dismantle Lady Liberty on Ellis Island and pack it back to those alleged socialists in France, then basking in their successful glory of ignorance all the while waving the stars and stripes, and chanting; ‘we are the real patriots’.

Outraged~~~~I went to the ACLU link BEFORE posting…and then I followed the link
that the ACLU posted….

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/appearance/600840428

Am I understanding this correctly because with the
wrong person in charge… say Cheney, couldn’t this
be used to easily create a bona fide police state?

From Salon:
” In a powerful statement, all members of the
Intelligence Committee and most members of the
Judiciary Committee asked Majority Leader Harry Reid
to refuse to allow the bill to proceed until the
detention provisions were removed from the bill. 
Instead, the drafters made the bill even worse,
prompting the secretary of defense to write a letter
in opposition and the White House to issue a veto
threat.

Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta wrote to Levin, 
saying the “advantages … of requiring that certain
individuals be held by the military are, at best,
unclear” and “restrain[] the Executive Branch’s
options to utilize, in a swift and flexible fashion,
all the counterterrorism tools that are now legally
available.”
http://www.salon.com/2011/11/28/is_guatanamo_forever/singleton/

But this literally sets us up for a police state, right….?

The e-decibel of cacophony on this forum has increased to the
10th exponent.  Just take the topic of anarchy which once again
raised one of its hydra heads.

The idea of anarchy as it has been manifested in human society is
actually side-splittingly entertaining.  It always was and most likely
always will be because it is actually a swaddle that keeps otherwise
quickened beings from being assimilated into a society. An anarchic
society will never persist.  It has a valuable function but as a format
for social living, because of indwelling features, it cannot abide.  It is
a tragic misunderstanding of what anarchy is that so many pledge the
whole fiber of their being even unto their death under some creed or
perceived transcendent cause.  It is counterproductive to a surviving
but too frequently overmoralized human organism.  It is a kind of rotting
sacred cow, rotting meaning an ongoing process.  It is not the case that
humans were never meant to be an organized political mass.  It is to
completely miss how humans evolved from primal bacteria that
navigated the ocean depths.  No organism generates singly. All are born
within a population that either survives because there is an environment
and nourishment that concurrently also evolved for them to persist as a
life form.  Of course humans are naturally social animals and as such for
their own survival as a species they are required to learn beyond their
too often debilitating consciousness to harmonize with each other.

Whoops. I did it again. That last post was directed to
heterochromatic.

Re:

No, I don’t think that is the case. If you go to the
ACLU link at that site it has this:

“UPDATE: Don’t be confused by anyone claiming that
the indefinite detention legislation does not apply
to American citizens. It does. There is an exemption
for American citizens from the mandatory detention
requirement (section 1032 of the bill), but no
exemption for American citizens from the
authorization to use the military to indefinitely
detain people without charge or trial (section 1013
of the bill). So, the result is that, under the bill,
the military has the power to indefinitely imprison
American citizens, but it does not have to use its
power unless ordered to do so”

Outraged~~~~~The worldwide indefinite detention without charge or
trial provision is in S. 1867, the National Defense
Authorization Act bill,~~~~~

that provision applies to POWs who have American citizenship but are engaged in
armed combat against the USA

Re: Anarcissie

“But what I really want to know is this:  Doesn’t
the Second Amendment apply to buckets of rocks?”

Good point. I say yes, as I see no reason why not, but only if you are using them to ARM yourself. You might need a good-sized leather holster though, and remember in some states it can’t be CONCEALED.

Bad news, now they want to be able to turn the
military on Americans and lock us up without
detention. Supposedly Obama is saying he’ll veto
this, but what the hell are Levin and McCain
thinking? (btw, there’s link there to contact your
congressperson there) Check it out:

“The Senate is going to vote on whether Congress
will give this president—and every future president —
the power to order the military to pick up and
imprison without charge or trial civilians anywhere
in the world. Even Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) raised his
concerns about the NDAA detention provisions during
last night’s Republican debate. The power is so broad
that even U.S. citizens could be swept up by the
military and the military could be used far from any
battlefield, even within the United States itself.

The worldwide indefinite detention without charge or
trial provision is in S. 1867, the National Defense
Authorization Act bill, which will be on the Senate
floor on Monday. The bill was drafted in secret by
Sens. Carl Levin (D-Mich.) and John McCain (R-Ariz.)
and passed in a closed-door committee meeting,
without even a single hearing.”
http://www.opednews.com/populum/linkframe.php?linkid=141983

The Protect IP Act nightmare is still on:

“The Preventing Real Online Threats to Economic
Creativity and Theft of Intellectual Property Act
(Protect IP) and the Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA)
“are like two peas in a pod,” Sen. Ron Wyden, the
bills’ most vocal opponent in the U.S. Senate,
explained to Raw Story in an exclusive interview.

“Had I not put a hold on it in May, it would have
simply passed at that time,” Wyden continued.”
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/23/wyden-protect-ip-act-may-pass-if-americans-dont-call-congress/

The place to write your representative is:
http://act.demandprogress.org/letter/pelosi/

Whoops, I thought that was you I was having a debate with in the past, Leefeller. Well, how embarassing, oh well not the first time I’ve stuck my foot in it. Don’t mind me, I’ll be losing internet access soon and you won’t suffer my memory lapses.

Thanks Screaming Palm, my Holy scriptures are not really holy nor scriptures but actually nothing but the truth and facts as I see them, though apparently seen as condescending to some who choose not to see them as to their full potential and merit and usually not at all by the butt of the bite.

Here’s some more o’ that old-time anarchist violence:

http://www.thenation.com/article/164766/peoples-library-occupy-wall-street-lives

http://www.theshalomcenter.org/content/elders-occupiers-meet-20th-21st-century-movements-connect

But what I really want to know is this:  Doesn’t the Second Amendment apply to buckets of rocks?

By Cliff Carson, November 28 at 1:07 pm

Absolutely the greatest put-down and exceeded only by its sure fire accuracy.

You told it like it is Lee.

Yes a post devoid of substance or reference to anything specific filled with unnecessary ad hom and condescension. If only the “special people” could be as smart and Holy as Mr. Leefeller himself! Quite hard to quantify considering our hero cherry-picks and looks at scripture through rose-colored glasses!

Yeah we really need more of THIS on TD lol.

How would we know?

Anarchism in its violent form leads Anarcissie to enter accusatory form,

“they are all agents provocateurs!”

http://www.kgw.com/news/Police-raid-Portland-homes-taken-over-by-anarchists-134591538.html

Communism in its ideal form would be better than Communism in its practical form.

And lets keep it that way.

Presumably capitalism in its pure form leads to capitalism in its present form.

“The Washington Post’s Ezra Klein wrote that Bloomberg had done Occupy Wall Street a favor. “

Thank you Ezra,

Capitalism in its pure form would be much more palatable then the crony capitalism we see today. I have little problem with Adams Smiths Idea of capitalism, opposed to the biggest company wins and the consumer takes it in the shorts! True and fair competition with smaller based business community owned and operated, instead of mega corporations who are now people too, where money is speech?

Maybe the populous needs to be made aware?

An Alternative to Capitalism (if the people knew
about it, they would demand it)

Several decades ago, Margaret Thatcher claimed:
“There is no alternative”. She was referring to
capitalism. Today, this negative attitude still
persists.

I would like to offer an alternative to capitalism
for the American people to consider. Please click on
the following link. It will take you to an essay
titled: “Home of the Brave?” which was published by
the Athenaeum Library of Philosophy:

http://evans-
experientialism.freewebspace.com/steinsvold.htm

John Steinsvold

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and
expecting a different result”
~ Albert Einstein

Thanks Cliff, I tell it like I see it, sometimes the constant nonsense posted here from those ‘special folks’ makes me want to drag out my favorite bumper sticker which states:,,, “Who Gives A Damn About Apathy!” ... and follow its advice!

Another OWS victory is to change the conversation in Washington and the media from deficit cutting to economic disparity.

Another OWS victory was postponement of the XL Pipeline. According to Naomi Klein that wouldn’t have happened without OWS no matter how many people were arrested outside the White House.

I do believe we have to organize and take back America politically - but we have already been inspired to do so by OWS…. and Occupy the Universities…. and Occupy everywhere.

Leefeller, November 28 at 12:05 pm

Absolutely the greatest put-down and exceeded only by its sure fire accuracy.

You told it like it is Lee.

Those who vote against war, and for a non-corporate government that would care about people and have policies aggressively seeking survival of species — instead of the sociopathic (R) & (D) policies of the corporate state’s aggressor wars, ruthless constant growth economic exploitation and environmental destruction — can always depend upon (D) demented “progressives” to angrily accuse the sane and sensible voters of being Republicans.

There’s nothing a “progressive” hates more than an actually intelligent voter who resolutely refuses to vote for (D) greater evil… a person who will vote for good policies regardless of how hard the corporate party’s retrograde Republicans work to GOTV for the corporate party’s depraved Democrats.

The corporate party’s “progressive” liberal voters believe Godly good will come from their voting for (D)evils.

Voter Consent Wastes Dissent:

http://chenangogreens.org/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=498&Itemid=1

Deadline Passes for Occupy Philly to Dismantle  
Nearly 50 members of Occupy Philadelphia sat with
arms linked as a city deadline to leave the site of
their protest passed without any immediate action.
http://www.newslook.com/videos/375553-deadline-
passes-for-occupy-philly-to-dismantle?autoplay=true
Deadline Arrives, Protesters Remain at Occupy LA
Wall Street protesters in Los Angeles defied the
mayor’s early Monday deadline to vacate their
encampment near City Hall until police moved in about
five hours later, cleared them out and arrested three
people.  http://www.newslook.com/videos/375688-
deadline-arrives-protesters-remain-at-occupy-la?
autoplay=true

Okay, a perfect example of stupidity would be the constant Crier posts,... which reflect a distinct desire to denigrate large segments of society in what appears feverishly Republican in nature, dripping in a hefty helping of mind warping feces.

Yes, stupidity such as this is beyond redemption and seemingly annoying and would most likely qualify to run on the GOP ticket as road apple collector!

Get the money out!

Leefeller,

Thank you for setting us straight. You find yourself tiring only of other people bickering.

In my (11/27 5:23 am) listing here of many memorable movements that (D) dedicated activists have obediently GOTV for the corporate party’s Democrats to murder, I failed to include Single-Payer Healthcare for All. My apologies, but the 2008 deep dark depravity of the corporate party’s Democrat activists so absolutely exterminated that sane and sensible movement that there’s hardly anything left of it to remember.

The corporate party loyal “progressive” activists turned the Single-Payer movement into a GOTV drive to mandate higher profits for greater denial of healthcare. The corporate party’s Democrats made SickCare even sicker.

Michael Moore is a “progressive” Democrat corporate party operative. The “progressives” are the liberals who keep voting for the corporate party’s Democrats so they can keep protesting against the corporate gangster government policies they keep voting for.

However, in Moore’s case, he gets a BIG bonus. Moore can keep making movie money documenting the catastrophic consequences of sociopathic corporate party policies he keeps persuading (D) herded sheeple to vote for.

In 2012, the sane and sensible among American voters will again have an opportunity to vote against corporate profiting from SickCare, and to vote for all to have a human right to actual healthcare…

Dr. Jill Stein for President:

http://www.jillstein.org

Voter Consent Wastes Dissent:

http://chenangogreens.org/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=498&Itemid=1

A right wing friend of mine gave me the formula (convienently stacked against the middle/lower class)
Lower Taxes = Increased Jobs
Apparently history supports this law.
Lower taxes, increase profit margin - of course so did the Bail Outs. - and still no jobs.
Corporations exist to make profits. If the government generously provides them with unearned profits, they will pay themselves - before hiring more employees.
The only economic factor that will push business to hire - is increased demand. If consumers have no income because of unemployment - demand will decrease. If social services on which they depend - ie unemployment insurance, are also cut because of reduced public revenue, they are even less likely to get jobs -  and so the vicious cycle continues.
The brutal truth of the matter, is that big employers hire outside of the US. They are not hurting because of taxes, as their profits reflect. The grow because they don’t depend solely on American consumption.
So much for American job creation.

I also find stupidity damn annoying, hence why I tend to call it out when I find it, so what you call instigating, I refer to as my sacred right to free speech, it only appears in the myopic mind as ‘out of my way instigating’... when seen though the hazy prism of biased dogmas wrapped in blinders.

Leefeller, - “I find the bickering here on TD so damn annoying….”

-

Amen, Brother.

Yet you, near daily as far as I can tell, go out of your way to instigate bickering. Why?

It seems we have reached ‘the winter of Discontent’, unless you happen to live south of the Equator or in a Republican bubble or happen to be part of the 1 percent. Like my favorite football team, Let me be clear, I am rooting for Occupy to win this scrap, but I usually root for the under dogs, I suppose because I see myself in the underdog position (almost bent over in this case)  as the 99 percent.

One thing 2010 did besides fill the states and Congress with 1 percent crony henchmen, it also woke up a sleeping giant, a giant whom I have hope for, (Ohio and Wisconsin a stirring) though my inner fear is it will quickly fall back to sleep just as the 1 percent wishes.

I find the bickering here on TD so damn annoying, what does it represent as a whole? Who out there in the real world (not here at TD) is working hard to prop up their egos and show their dancing skills of oneupsmanship?  From my varied experiences and observations, I can say there are always people who want their views to be everyone else s and they can be divisive as hell in promoting them. (ie: The Republicans are so damn divisive they border on Hitleresc) Some people around the world, are believing they have and know the answers and others do not.  This is I suppose human nature for many people, those self proclaimed special absolutist’s out there. In Politics this is a given, my limited experiences with Religion showed the same response to alleged threats to perceived or real power, power threatened by the smallest differences. It is my theory everyone cannot drive the car, but we can all sure as hell be back seat drivers, was apparent passengers in the bus of life. I find Occupy’s utilization of direct Democracy noble, but am skeptical for its future?

Looking at the world and comparing it to the good old USA, the 1 percent appear in most if not all human society’s and they or most of them will use their status and wealth to bolster their power this is a given.  So we see the Qaddafi’s, Saddam Hussans, Hitlers and Koch Brothers of the world the manipulators as symbols of the 1 percent, utilizers of disenfranchisement and inequality using any divisive tools at their disposal to obtain and keep their power. They must mold the people to their whims and personal advantage. People in positions of power listed above seem not benevolent or compassionate, their views of the 99 percent or the huddled masses, were opposite towards the populous with little difference. Only thing for the Koch Brothers they have not obtained absolute power yet.

I am skeptical of Occupy s future for success, but my unyielding hope for the under dog supersedes my skepticism and I hope will prove me skepticism wrong!

Sorry for posting the same information twice. I wanted to make sure popmpous-ass, ardee-full-of-hate, found his way back to his hind-end.

OWS Organizer Questions Intentions of Secretive Affinity Group

ardee-full-of-hate,

Let us leave the question of how it is even possible that you cannot find an article published here on TruthDig, Mr. ardass, and note that that you inserted the above into Google and found NOTHING!

Here is your link you ignorant and lazy ass. Precisely where you were told it would be.

OWS Organizer Questions Intentions of Secretive Affinity Group

Every other post finds you telling people how very stupid they are. You were given the title, the author AND the site where it would be found and you STILL could not locate this article? It took me 7 seconds, you pompous, ignorant, ass.

-

Stop being an ass and I’ll stop treating you like a tantrum throwing adolescent.

@  Shenonymous
Thanks for watching it, that’s all I asked for (and a respite of us gnawing at each others throats to get some opinions on it). I agree some parts were exaggerated for laughs (and probably playing on some preconceived notions), but the part that concerned me the most was the group splitting off making decisions. The downtowner that bemoaned being ignored by the uptowners until they needed them struck a chord with me as well. Feels like it has the markings of the Democratic party to me (admittedly pure specualtion on my part).

My family was always split in half politically. I suppose blue collar leftist v liberal elitist. I don’t think my sister would see that as a diss, but I wouldn’t know… she’s too good to talk to me.

Anyways, thanks for taking the time to respond with your thoughts.

OWS Organizers Question Intentions Of Secretive Infinity Group” author is Alexander Kelly.

Let us leave the question of how it is even possible that you cannot make a freaking link, Mr. Calvin and note that I inserted the above into Google and found links only to TD articles and your own assertions. Nowhere did I see the name Michael Moore excepting, of course, in your own work.

OWS will be attacked, and from several directions. They challenge those who have all the power, own all the media and make all the rules. You ,apparently, are among the attackers. So be it.

Outraged, November 27 at 3:27 pm Link to this comment

Re: ardee

Your comment: “Who said that nothing was being done prior to the advent of the OWS movement?”

Is this your way of admitting that something was being done prior to OWS…?  Or am I misunderstanding you?

Post like an idiot, be labeled as an idiot.

The next question obviously is, Who was engaged in this fight? Wasn’t it the Democrats, Big Labor, Move On and
other groups?

You may continue to live in the past as long as you wish, we will wave goodbye to you as we the people continue our journey to restore this nation to the democracy it once held dear.

I come from a family of democrats, one that never considered voting any other way. But that party has long ceased to exist and all your harping on what once was but is no longer speaks volumes about you and absolutely nothing about today’s realities.

Re: Litl Bludot

Your comment: “OWS wants money out of politics, and
also banksters prosecuted.”

Well…. I’m with you so far. Have at ‘er!

Aw come on screamingpalm, you are now falling into your own
miasma of thought. Show where I assumed you considered Jon
Stewart an authority.  5 yups, I am a snotty liberal, but, you driftally
assume my station in life.  I don’t live uptown, I live downtown. No
ad homs about you were made.  But you sure made quite a few. 
Check out your post at Nov. 27 at 5:22pm.  Perhaps you don’t know
that your post Nov. 17 at 2:58pm was an argument.  Argument in the
philosophical sense that contains postulates and conclusions.  And
you are still dissing your sister!  You’ve been doing that for quite
a while on TD.  Whaddaguy.  She must have given you a swift kick in
the _ _ _ _ s once.  Yeowie!

Giving your comments their due, I watched the Jon Stewart video. My
response begins with your comment at Nov. 27 at 5:58, It was a well
done bit that included some very fair, constructive criticism.”  It must
be kept in mind that Jon Stewart is not a po’ man.  Quite wealthy in his
own right, his net worth is $80-$100 Million with a annual salary of
$15 Million (that might put him in the upper crust bracket???).

Because going looking for reasons for a story of witty criticism is her
job, and specifically for comedic effect, Samantha Bee visited OWS NY
and came to some rash conclusions from two of the “lower end”
protesters who observed the group had split in half, the Ghetto People,
the poor people’s encampment and the Upper Crust, college hipster
protesters who were accused of trying to rule the park, and called the
relationship between the two groups contentious.  This was not a
representative sampling of the 30,000 crowd, BTW.  Bee called the group
divided by “class;” her term, “elites” versus the “downwardly mobile.” 
One guy called it the ghetto vs. the aristocratic who are making decisions
without consensus of everyone in the park.  He didn’t give any as an
example. It is not true, also BTW.

Camps formed based mainly on their need for quietude and various
committees formed depending on their interests.  Bee kept making
her own sarcastic differences to the protesters, accusing one she was
interviewing of trying too hard not to slip into the affectatiousness of
“political correctnesses,” and that he was “blowing up like a helium
balloon,” when he really was explaining why there was a navigation
into two “camps” that some people were quieter and others are louder. 
The younger folks were noisier. 

Noticeably, she didn’t dwell a nanosecond with a mild statement by one
guy who said they were all in the same society.  She brought in the term
‘condescension’ to the report and kept calling the groups disrespective
names, ivy league assholes (bleeped) or shiftless hobos, setting up an
intraconflict with her leading questions.  But interestingly enough those
among the so-called elitists had nothing denigrating to say about the
ones in the Ghetto, rather they extolled the Others for their good ideas!
who possibly were not aware themselves how good they were.  The
contention was mostly in Samantha’s mind.  A degree of envy will arise in
any group, and especially in a large group. To make it bigger than what
it is, is a kind of opportunism of a comedian trying to eke out a story. 
Hardly constructive criticism.

Various committees naturally formed out of the Occupiers who have
definable reasons why they are part of the movement.  Committees meet
every evening at 7pm.  They form the decision-making body called the
General Assembly.  The perception that there is an “elite” group is a
provincial notion some people have who don’t have the best grasp on
what is going on.

As of November 26, 2011, the general assemblies of New York, Oakland,
Chicago, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Dallas and 350 communities across
the United States have appointed David Kristjanson-Gural spokesperson
for the Occupy Wall St. movement.

To all you deluded Obama zombies, take a look at this, it didn’t happen on Bush’s
watch, but on your number one frenemy’s-Obama.. When it comes to corruption,
he makes bush look like a saint.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/multi-trillion-bank-bailout-leads-multi-
billion-bank-profit-bloomberg-finds

OWS wants money out of politics, and also banksters prosecuted. That’s a bit at
odds with frenemy Obama’s MO. You think? Could be why DHS was coordinating with the local fascists to brutalize and bust the OWS people. Just a guess. Could be way off base. Obama is such a genuine, Christian, thoughtful guy.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/nov/25/shocking-truth-about-crackdown-occupy

Re:  Michael Cavlan RN

Your comment: “I am responding to the point you
made to Ardee about GOTV.

For the record, I was responding to David J. Cyr
regarding GOTV, not ardee.

“I also know that you will not address it..
Because you cant. To even address it makes the point
valid.”

That’s one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. According to you if I respond, supposedly your point is valid and if I don’t respond, supposedly your point is supposedly valid. That is utter nonsense. I think not.

“You Democrats ALLOWED the massive violation of
the 1965 Voter Rights Act and voter suppression of
the 2000 and 2004 selections.”

So what you’re claiming is that the Democrats had a
massive conspiracy in play to ensure they would lose the
election? Are you serious….!?

“Then, as a coup d etat to the death of democracy,
you allowed Obama to take the presidency.”

Again, if I understand you correctly, you are also
claiming that after the Democrats supposed conspiracy to
lose the election, they then had another conspiracy
to win an election (Obama’s)???? That’s what I make of your assertions.
Is that what you meant?

Oh no

Another Truthdigger Of The Week award- gone, down the hatch.

Grin

Telling The Truth, In A Time Of Universal Deceit Is A Revolutionary Act- George Orwell

Outraged

I am responding to the point you made to Ardee about GOTV.

I also know that you will not address it.. Because you cant. To even address it makes the point valid.

You Democrats ALLOWED the massive violation of the 1965 Voter Rights Act and voter suppression of the 2000 and 2004 selections.. Then, as a coup d etat to the death of democracy, you allowed Obama to take the presidency.

Or should I say, your corporate owners did all this.

Litl Bludot

You nailed it. I just watched the movie The Corporation as well. As for the current war criminal in chief- yes and Goldmann Sachs was Obama’s top campaign contributor in the 2008 selection.

Until people grasp that we do not have a democracy, we can not start to build one.

Leefeller

You put it right.  The 1% and their minions ( now who is that? - Democrat Party, Republican Party, ALEC, Corporate Entities - including Main stream Media, Our entrenched corrupt Government, plus their disciples on here), didn’t worry about the OWS until it begin to spread in earnest.  Short term resistance doesn’t bother them, but when it begins to take on the appearance of permanency, they do get worried and rightly so.  Why?  Because they realize that when enough of the 99% have had enough, the 1% is nearing its end.

That is when the head knocking starts.  The 1% will not let this be a non-violent uprising.  They know it is the beginning of their end.  So they will try to stop it at all costs.

Before it is all over with, no matter who wins, there will be blood and lots of it.

By Shenonymous, November 27 at 5:52 pm

Your sister is five short, I ride six high horses.  Just ask around.
M’thinks you take yourself too seriously, screamingpalm.  You
might watch more of The Daily Show, and Colbert’s.  Guess you
can’t come up with the names of any elites who haunt the OWS
so you stoop to lurking around my narrow-view box and try to
be demeaning.  What was it I said you said but you say you
didn’t say?  Now that is funny.

That’s better

They didn’t give their names on camera, not sure why that matters anyway?

You were making assumptions that I consider Jon Stewart an “authority” on… whatever. And that I am arguing… anything at all. It was a well done bit that included some very fair, constructive criticism. Instead of discussing that you went off on an ad hom rant without even taking the subject matter into account.

Michael Cavian RN, and David J Cyr.  Thanks. It needed to be said. Excellent
stuff.

Until people realize that both parties are fascist corporate entities-the Dems
covertly, frenemy style, with frenemy number one, Obama—then we are going
to have our society destroyed by the capitalist parasites, who will then go on
raping and pillaging until there’s nothing left, literally. They are deadly
psychopaths. 

“Four case studies, drawn from a universe of corporate activity, clearly
demonstrate harm to workers, human health, animals and the biosphere.
Concluding this point-by-point analysis, a disturbing diagnosis is delivered: the
institutional embodiment of laissez-faire capitalism fully meets the diagnostic
criteria of a “psychopath.”

http://www.thecorporation.com/index.cfm?page_id=312

I saw the above movie a few of years ago. Since then, there’s been massive
verfication of the diagnosis, of course.

BTW, Obama is the choice of the banksters, the miltary/industrial/prison
complex, the planet destroying oil/nuclear/coal companies because they know he’s the most
effective covert corprate fascist yet, he’s been totally successful in portraying himself as the friend of the people, when he is exactly the opposite, the chief vector for the parasitoid psycopaths. So, he gets more money then all
the overt republican fascists put together.

http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/campaign-finance
also try
http://www.opensecrets.org/elections/index.php
which is being blocked right now, especially the presidential info.  I wonder by who? Keep trying of you don’t get to the site.

BTW, Keith Oberman didn’t get kicked off MSNBC until he started pointing out the hypocrisy, cronyism, and bush on steriods policies of Obama. That’s when the corpration fired him. If anyone cares to take note, Rachel Maddow will never seriously criticize Obama. If she did, she would be fired.

Your sister is five short, I ride six high horses.  Just ask around.
M’thinks you take yourself too seriously, screamingpalm.  You
might watch more of The Daily Show, and Colbert’s.  Guess you
can’t come up with the names of any elites who haunt the OWS
so you stoop to lurking around my narrow-view box and try to
be demeaning.  What was it I said you said but you say you
didn’t say?  Now that is funny.

Of course you didn’t watch it. You’re too good for that and too busy making ad homs and assumptions about things I never said. You remind me so much of my snotty liberal elitist sister up on her high horse of morality working for a collection agency lol. You’re one of those uptowners from the bit that is too good for the progressive masses but calls upon them when needed as pawns.

” Did you even watch the Daily Show episode in reference? Or
do you always resort to ad homs when someone tries to think
outside your narrow-view box?“  Are you in my narrow-box? 
Sheesh, I just didn’t see you there!  Gee, screamingpalm, is your
whole argument based on a Comedy Central show?  Yeowie Kazowie. 
Well I do like Jon Stewart, but I don’t see him as an authority, and he
even warns us to not see him as one…so many times has he reminded
us that he is a comedian first!  And we can see you’ve appropriated
Stephen Colbert’s image (I suppose it’s legal???) unless you are
Stephen Colbert!  LOL.  Comedy has its place and you are right, this
place could use more of it.  But it has been noticed that denizens like
to laugh mainly at their own jokes and rarely at other’s (you might
check out yourself first).  yuk yuk yuk yuk yuk. 

So to answer your question?  No.  I have not watched the Daily Show
episode in reference.  Is it really necessary?  Can’t you find any other
corroboration?  Real ones?  Does Jon Stewart name the elites who have
infiltrated OWS?  Aw do I really hafta watch it?  Shit!  Seems to me you
are stuck in your own narrow-view box.  Mine happens to be a kind of
slim, kind of medium tall jack-in-the-box and occasionally I popppppp
my head out to see what the f is going on.  Same old same old.  ho hum,
and yawn.

Everyone is a backseat driver or my mom! ‘Hey Occupy Wall Street, you should clean up after your self, just like big brother’. From the comments here, Occupy is living proof everyone has an ass hole and apparently an opinion too!  Occupy should be doing this or that…. Geebibiz on a cracker, ‘Occupy is kaput’, ‘Occupy is just beginning’, ‘Occupy is doing it all wrong they should be doing what I feel they should be doing’.
I see a little Adolf in yous guys!

Come on folks, Occupy is only two months and a few days old and you are making it sound like we just went through eight years of Bush whacking. Hell, from what I can tell Bush didn’t represent me, nor did he speak for me and I am fairly sure GW Bush wouldn’t know the definition of disenfranchisement even if 99 percent of the populism bit him on the ass!  After watching the clowns running for Grand Old President, they would be hard pressed to sweating brow wheezingly head scratching contortions, if confronted with word ‘inequality’ ...actually in their case, any words other than ‘me, myself and I’ seems more than they are privy too!

Look, Occupy Wall Street is alive and well, as the 99 percent,.... simply because I am still here!

Whoops. My last post was directed to Michael Cavlan
RN, I forgot to put in the name. Sorry

Re:

Your comment: “Oh you make this ever so easy.”

I have no idea what you think is “ever so easy”. What
are you talking about?  My comment was directed to
ardee, and I’m waiting for that response.

I will debate any point you have, that is if you have
one however currently I am discussing something with
ardee. If you are patient, I feel confident I can
consider any misconceptions you might have. Something
you might find interesting in the meantime:

“Playing the Servant Role – Covert-aggressives use
this tactic to cloak their self-serving agendas in
the guise of service to a more noble cause. It’s a
common tactic but difficult to recognize. By
pretending to be working hard on someone else’s
behalf, covert-aggressives conceal their own
ambition, desire for power, and quest for a position
of dominance over others. In the story of James (the
minister) and Sean, James appeared to many to be the
tireless servant. He attended more activities than he
needed to attend and did so eagerly. But if devoted
service to those who needed him was his aim, how does
one explain the degree to which James habitually
neglected his family? As an aggressive personality,
James submits himself to no one. The only master he
serves is his own ambition. Not only was playing the
servant role an effective tactic for James, but also
it’s the cornerstone upon which corrupt ministerial
empires of all types are built. A good example comes
to mind in the recent true story of a well-known
tele-evangelist who locked himself up in a room in a
purported display of “obedience” and “service” to
God. He even portrayed himself’ a willing sacrificial
lamb who was prepared to be “taken by God” if he
didn’t do the Almighty’s bidding and raise eight
million dollars. He claimed he was a humble servant,
merely heeding the Lord’s will. He was really
fighting to save his substantial material empire.”

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopaths_in_sheeps_clothing.htm

Outraged

Oh you make this ever so easy.

You see, I was an Official Ohio 2004 Re-Count worker.

The way I remember it, it was the Democratic Party under John Kerry and John Edwards who had no problem with voter suppression and election fraud.

Or did I miss John Kerry leading the charge- with the $56 million set aside in his campaign funds to fight and expose the deliberate attempt to suppress the rights of people to vote and have that vote count in an accurate manner? 

Never mind Al Gore (the corporate whore) who told the Congressional Black Caucus to “Sit down and be quiet” when they complained of the approx 95,000 mainly blacks who were purged ILLEGALLY from the voter rolls in Florida 2000?
Check out the movie American Blackout with Cynthia McKinney and watch what I am talking about.

Both of these events were direct, blatant violations of the 1965 Voters Rights Act, which the Democrats allowed..

It is so much easier to blame Ralph Nader, who exposed the bi-partisan corruption by Wall Street.

Speaking the truth, in a time of Universal Deceit is a revolutionary act- George Orwell

Ardee

I do not know how to make links. However- google is our friend.

The article in question is titled “OWS Organizers Question Intentions Of Secretive Infinity Group” author is Alexander Kelly.

So Ardee- you seem to be just a wee bit sensitive in regards to Democratic Party operatives attempting to co-opt. Or am I reading you wrong?

The story is there. I never trusted Michael Moore. His moment of begging Ralph Nader on his knees to not run along with Bill Maher showed me who and what Mikey Moore is working for.

He has never apologized for that moment. He can’t. His corporate sponsors in the Democratic Party will not let him. They would cut his funding stream and contact sources out.

You all can consider this a public challenge to Michael Moore.

Re: ardee

Your comment: “Who said that nothing was being done
prior to the advent of the OWS movement?”

Is this your way of admitting that something was being
done prior to OWS…?  Or am I misunderstanding you?

The next question obviously is, Who was engaged in this
fight? Wasn’t it the Democrats, Big Labor, Move On and
other groups?

Outraged, November 27 at 10:42 am

You need a reality check, sorry to note. Who said that nothing was being done prior to the advent of the OWS movement? No one that’s who. Thus your detour into fantasy land is off the mark.

Michael Cavlan RN, November 27 at 2:37 pm

If you got the story from an article here then you should have no trouble posting a link to it, now should you?

By Shenonymous, November 27 at 12:59 pm

”...elitist members within OWS taking it upon themselves to think
and make decisions for the group”  Really?  Do you have any elitist
names?  Or are you just making a rabble-rousing, agitative, invader
comment?

Did you even watch the Daily Show episode in reference? Or do you always resort to ad homs when someone tries to think outside your narrow-view box?

Some of you could use a little humor in your lives, whether you believe satire to be a “fallacy” or not. Neither you nor the movement is above constructive criticism, and hopefully the OWS can reflect on that.

REDHORSE,

I agree with much of what you wrote here, however, the “99” are, I believe, nowhere near on board with today’s demonstrations. That is to say; ‘99’ does not represent the American public as a whole, Americans know this. - So too should some who have found a home on TruthDig.

Let us come together around a congealing goal. Let us build up democracy. Not tear it down. Occupy the places which create legislation. From School Boards, City Councils, State Houses to the U.S. Congress. Support the same idea all over today’s interconnected globe.

If polls and voter registration records are accurate less than 15% of actual “Occupiers” take the time to be heard on their own community’s issues. We then wonder, sometimes angrily, why we are not represented. - Blaming others is always the path of least resistance.

David Cyr

I wrote an article in the Twin Cities Daily Planet, in their Free Speech Zone titled “Occupy Minnesota- Lessons From Wisconsin.” I think you will like it. Democratic Party loyalists, not so much.

Ardee- in regards to Michael Moore attempting to co-opt Occupy Wall Street, well I got the facts from a story here on TruthDig.

Apparently Michael Moore was involved with an “affinity group” which had no transparency, did not have meetings open to the public, only had some folks with money involved and the article suggested that they were attempting to subvert Occupy towards more “mainstream”  positions. In other words, the corporate corrupted Democratic Party and probably worker bees for the Goldman Sachs owned Barack Obama campaign.

They will fail but be aware, they are trying.

Re: David J. Cyr

Seems you have a real problem with GOTV drives, now who/what
does that remind me of….....

Are you going to claim now that Democrats intimidated
people into voting for them…? twisted their arms…?
threatened them….? seduced them….?

Why am I confident that in your dark world GOTV drives are an anathema to your agenda….?

How would GOTV hurt your supposed position?

Is anyone else nearing the conclusions that ‘Occupy’ has always been about each individual’s sense of grievance (a reaction) to today’s staggering unemployment, a stagnant economy, and an overall sense of misrepresentation? Or perhaps a very personal lack of representation in an ocean of opinions? Not a movement at all but, rather, a predictable reaction to the times?

I’ve seen hundreds of news articles, pundit opinions, snippets from the cable “news” networks, alternative news sources and the many comments here and elsewhere. What I find in each of these places is that each attaches their own meaning (sense of grievance) to Occupy.

Globalists, anti-capitalists, anarchists, anti-government, pro-government, student loan’ers, environmentalists, union organizers, anti-authoritarians, Wall Street reformers, bank regulators, anti-drilling advocates, peace activists, fair tax’ers, 99’ers, anti-MIC’ers and advocates of local -horizontal- general assemblies is represented in nearly each of these gatherings.

It seems to me attaching Ohio’s issues, or Spain and Greece for that matter, is the same pathology in practice.

This isn’t actually the first victory that has credited OWS with its success. Naomi Klein said that the postponement of approval for the Keystone XL pipeline was only achieved because of OWS.

OWS is starting to change the political conversation - slowly, but it is starting to change. It is making people start to realize that many of us are sick and
tired of the same old policies we are willing to stand up and say so

”...elitist members within OWS taking it upon themselves to think
and make decisions for the group”  Really?  Do you have any elitist
names?  Or are you just making a rabble-rousing, agitative, invader
comment?

OWS is more shrewd than is given credit.  Aware of the coming election
year, there is no reason to jump into a wholly unstable political scene. 
They will wait until it is more propitious their causes, and they do have
causes, many of them, then as it gets closer to election time, they will
then make their checkmating move. 

You make a good point REDHORSE:  The win in Ohio indeed was a coup,
an outstanding case of unified action on the part of the people, to effect
a repeal of all things. And a revolt is contagious and can become part of
a driving force that propels other revolts.  Wisconsin’s plebisite revolt is
such a scene.  Thugs and criminals are attempting to subvert the serious
determination of the recall champions.  Police reports have been filed on
behalf of anti-Walker activists who have received death threats and theft
of their property associated with their petition activities.  That their lives
and the lives of their family were in danger.  One man showed up at a site
collecting signatures and ripped up a petition that had already been signed. 
WOW!  It is a grave situation.  This action is a Class I felony that carries a fine
up to $10,000 or imprisonment up to three years and six months, or both.
MotherJones’ Andy Kroll reported Conservatives Plot to Burn, Shred, and
Sabotage Scott Walker Recall Effort, Nov. 11, 2011.
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/11/conservative-sabotage-recall-walker-wisconsin

As of Friday, 105,000+ signatures had been collected.  At that rate there is
every reason to believe they easily will have the 540,208 signed petitions by
January 17.  The people speak.  Ohio led the way.