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Ground Zero for Tolerance

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Posted on Aug 17, 2010
ground zero
AP / Mark Lennihan

Construction cranes tower above One World Trade Center on Aug. 13 in New York.


Q & A - Live Chat with Robert Scheer


A live Q & A session related to this column took place on August 19, 2010 at 11:00 am PT.

Click here to view the transcript.


By Robert Scheer

Are the Republicans terminally stupid or are they just playing the dangerous fool? In either case, the irrational attack on Muslims everywhere by the GOP’s leadership is not only deeply subversive with regard to the American ideal of religious tolerance but also poses a profound threat to our national security. Nor does it help that some top Democrats like Harry Reid are willing to demean Muslims even as we fight two wars in which victory depends on our ability to convey a respect for their religion.

Just ask Gen. David Petraeus, who is leading the war without end to win the hearts and minds of Muslims in Afghanistan, how helpful it is to the Taliban for American politicians to identify all Muslims with terrorism. Or to the theocratic leaders of Iran who justify their hard line with the insistence that the U.S. is obsessively anti-Muslim.

Demonization of the Muslim religion is what this brouhaha is all about. Talk of the sensitivity of the victims of 9/11, ignoring those who were Muslim, is just camouflage. It is as absurd as it would be to blame all religious Jews for the assassination of Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, killed by one gunman from a fanatical Jewish fringe group, or to ban the erection of an Orthodox synagogue anywhere near Rabin’s grave. As irrational an act of scapegoating as blaming all ethnic Germans for the acts of Nazis, many of whom claimed to be God-fearing Christians.

Yet that is the logical implication of the comparison that Newt Gingrich made when he likened the proposed erection of a Muslim community center two blocks from the World Trade Center site to putting a Nazi sign next to the Holocaust Museum. On his website, Newt goes further in identifying all Muslims with terrorism: “There should be no mosque near Ground Zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia. The time for double standards that allow Islamists to behave aggressively towards us while they demand our weakness and submission is over.”

Consider the full implication of that call for an international cold war against Islam by the former GOP House speaker. Someone should remind Newt that both Republican and Democratic presidents have regarded Saudi Arabia as an ally in the war against terrorism and toward that end sanctioned the sale of very sophisticated weaponry to the kingdom and the sharing of intelligence with its military. So too with the Muslim-dominated government of Pakistan with which we have been allied for a half-century, not to mention our current Muslim allies in power in Iraq and Afghanistan. As a leader in Congress, Gingrich supported those policies, but now in his zeal to misrepresent President Barack Obama’s perfectly sensible stand that we are not at war with the Muslim world, he abandons not only his record but also any pretense of logic.

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But even if one accepts that the Wahhabi version of Islam dominant in Saudi Arabia helps fuel violent spinoffs of the Osama bin Laden variety (although bin Laden would be summarily executed in his native land), what does this have to do with a Sufi Muslim community center proposed for lower Manhattan? As the highly regarded religion writer William Dalrymple pointed out in a New York Times Op-Ed piece, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the leader of the group hoping to build the New York center, is a moderate Sufi, and he and his movement’s espousal of universal brotherhood have been a target of violence. The Taliban was so threatened by the Sufi message of universal love that it attacked a Pakistani shrine to the great 17th century Sufi poet-saint Rahman Baba. “I am a lover, and I deal in love,” Dalrymple writes in citing Baba’s revered Sufi verse, which continues, “Sow flowers,/ so your surroundings become a garden./ Don’t sow thorns; for they will prick your feet./ We are all one body./ Whoever tortures another, wounds himself.”

Just the message most relevant to adorn a building near the site of the World Trade Center, leveled by those who sow thorns. But sadly the thorns of religious bigotry are not a monopoly of any one religion or easily resisted by the demagogic politicians who exploit our ignorance of the other. The premise of our constitutional protection of religious diversity is that ignorance is the enemy of freedom. 

Our founders were keenly aware, from the lessons of Europe and the early American colonies, of the dangers posed by false prophets from within their own churches. They knew well from deep personal experience, as is revealed clearly in the writings of Washington and Jefferson, that religious and political liberty was most effectively threatened by the zealotry of one’s own kin. 

Click here to check out Robert Scheer’s new book, “The Great American Stickup: How Reagan Republicans and Clinton Democrats Enriched Wall Street While Mugging Main Street.”

Click here to check out Robert Scheer’s book,
“The Great American Stickup: How Reagan Republicans and Clinton Democrats Enriched Wall Street While Mugging Main Street.”


Keep up with Robert Scheer’s latest columns, interviews, tour dates and more at www.truthdig.com/robert_scheer.



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drbhelthi's avatar

By drbhelthi, August 26, 2010 at 12:29 am Link to this comment

“The hatred directed to Islamics is turning toward
the criminal Zionists as people awaken to the
fact that Israel—not Islamics—did 9-11 along
with gentile traitors within the U.S.”  whole2th

Perhaps. The mixture of CIA/MoSSAD/MI6 deserves to
be “shaken out” to clarify how many treasonists of
which putrid variety were involved. How “Junior”
Bush´s team of treasonists managed to sneak the pay-
off to the destruction crew, for their 3-months´ of
rigging the explosives, by the noses of the
U.S. Congress, would be interesting.

Anyway, the comment reminds one of the USS Liberty,
the israeli operatives dressed as Arabs who blew the
hole in the side of the Cole, and the israeli Air
Assault on the Mercy Mission - intended for
the Palestinean folk - a couple months ago.

Who is behind the media PR that engenders paranoia
about Iran developing a nuclear weapon? 

How many attacks on foreign nation vessels or property has
Iran undertaken in the last fifty years? Other than
carrying out orders of the well-established-NAZI-
family, Bush ?  Is it the sewer-dregs among the CIA,
or a combination of NAZI/CIA/MOSSAD/MI6. Or, were
they simply carrying out the orders of the secretive
Chief of the US CIA, 1960-1981, GHWBushSr,
after
he “formally” turned the reigns over to appointed puppets? 
Two of whom were later assassinated: 
One whose underlings assisted him with drowning,
the other received the furtive gift of implanted brain cancer.

My, my.
How the role of the FBI has been denigraded
since G. Edgar received death-assistance.
And the U.S. Army “soldier” who was,
on paper,
a colonel for one day - -
thank God for his wife.
He knows now, too late, that he will never be able to
“repay” them for their “favoritism.” Sad, sad - -
A genuine Patriot up til the day he agreed - -

The Chronicles of Chip Tatum, and former Region
Chief of the FBI in California, Theodore Gunderson,
provide very useful insight.

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, August 25, 2010 at 9:57 pm Link to this comment

Just screwing around with Offersence the ex, or as Patrick Henry prefers, former squid, just in fun! I worked with Navy guys and some of my best friends were Navy, I never held it against them!

As for Zero Tolerance, I speculate it is just another smoke and mirrors routine to make the natives restless and take focus off more important things, like the never ending wars or Congress selling our nation to the highest bidder!

Report this

By Atilla, August 25, 2010 at 7:51 pm Link to this comment

By Leefeller, August 25 at 5:19 pm Link to this comment

Ewe! Ewe! ...... Offersince! sort of like” bit me”  for the 13 button guys!

When were you in boot camp? Coddled the fella’s..bullshit. Standing those stupid watches around the clothes line in the middle of the night. Washing your clothes on that damn concrete bench and tying the up on the line with strings facing a certain way with the correct number of buttons buttoned. Sewing your jacket pockets closed because somebody had a little tobacco residue in the bottom of it during inspection. God I loved it….

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By Atilla, August 25, 2010 at 7:44 pm Link to this comment

ofersince72…why in hell did you choose to go to Great Lakes in the winter time??? Hell, Sandiego in the winter time was bad enough. Well whatever the reason I salute your service.

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By Sodium-Na, August 25, 2010 at 5:05 pm Link to this comment

For ardee,

ardee,

I am delighted that you are still around posting. A few months ago,I was wondering about your whereabout(s).

Welcome back.

And thank you for your kind words and encouragement. Much appreciated.

We need not agree on every detail,nor need we agree on the importance of issues as long as everyone of us provide one another with the best of what we know in a positive and constructive way. You have always done that with me,whether our discourse was about details or about issues.

Again,thank you,ardee,for your affable and good-natured manner as you communicate with me. Most appreciated.

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By ardee, August 25, 2010 at 3:47 pm Link to this comment

Sodium-Na, August 25 at 2:28 pm

Just a note to say that I find most of your posts insightful and well written. I confess that I disagree here and there but think you always add to the discourse in a positive way. Wish there were more like you here.

( you too, ITW, even if we (sometimes vehemently ) disagree about that certain political party and its utility….

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By ofersince72, August 25, 2010 at 1:40 pm Link to this comment

Not in those days!!!!  There was nothing coddling
at Great Lakes during the sixties.
(especially in the middle of winter)

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, August 25, 2010 at 1:19 pm Link to this comment

Ewe! Ewe! ...... Offersince! sort of like” bit me”  for the 13 button guys!

My dad was quite a yelling and screamer kind of dad when I was growing up, .....so going through boot camp, I found the D.Is kind of mellow and funny, though I did not go out of my way to show my feeling of hilarity, with belly laughs or anything.

From what I understand, in the Navy, the D.I.s kind of coddled recruits and no yelling?

Report this

By ofersince72, August 25, 2010 at 1:03 pm Link to this comment

LeeFeller….That wouldn’t have happened to be Ewe,
would it have??

Report this

By Sodium-Na, August 25, 2010 at 10:37 am Link to this comment

Leefeller,

An excellent observation. It just hit the target where it should.

Thanks.

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By Sodium-Na, August 25, 2010 at 10:28 am Link to this comment

“THE SMALLER THE MIND,THE GREATER THE EGO”
                      AUTHOR:UNKNOWN

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, August 25, 2010 at 10:05 am Link to this comment

Using the word “you” more than 10 times in one sentence does seem like some kind of inferiority complex, .....in the Marine Corps the Drill Instructor used to take care of clowns who specialized in the word “you” or “U” and if a not so smart recruit…. said to the D.I.  “Sir, but U said…..... ;  The DI would yell back in the face of the not so smart recruit ........ YOU!  YOU!.....F…..U! ......Ewe is a female lamb!  Oh those where the days!

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By truedigger3, August 25, 2010 at 9:51 am Link to this comment

Sodium-Na wrote:
“I have already hit a nurve and .......
______________________________________________

It is not hit a “nurve”, but hit a nerve.
“You definitely need to take Freshman English all over again”, and I am quoting what you wrote to me about a spelling mistake I made.
As you sow, you shall reap. I have never corrected anybody spelling or grammer before. This is the first and last time. I don’t have your inferiority complex or pedantry.! Okay, boy.!! Adios.

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By Sodium-Na, August 25, 2010 at 7:59 am Link to this comment

For Inherit The Wind,

ITW,

Will follow your suggestion since I know I have already hit a nurve and therefore no need to pay attention to what the “imbecile” says,since I have already listed him in the list of the lowest of the lows.

Thanks.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, August 25, 2010 at 4:41 am Link to this comment

Sodium:

Just remember “No good deed goes unpunished”

Just ignore TD3’s insults.  Nobody pays much attention to them.  Kind of like GRYM calling anyone who doesn’t answer his leading, loaded questions “dishonorable”.

OCCASIONALLY he has some good insights, but none in this thread.

Or, in the words of Inigo Montoya “I don’ think that means what you think it means”.

Report this

By truedigger3, August 25, 2010 at 2:44 am Link to this comment

Sodium-Na,

What a slimey, unprincipled and spineless character you are. You deserve nothing but contempt and derision.

Report this

By Sodium-Na, August 25, 2010 at 2:00 am Link to this comment

Re: Leefeller,August 24 at 10:58 pm.

Quote
======

Sodium na I did not know we had any animosity between us,maybe you could fill me in so I know how to respond.

Unquote
========

Leefeller,

Good to know that you are still around.

Your statement I have quoted above is so generous and indeed magnanimous that have made me feel I really have a friend around here,inspite of an improper judgment I had committed two or three months ago;and for which I profoundly apologize.

Yes,Leefeller,I have to agree with you that there is no animosity between us. And thank you for your obvious understanding,only people of good-will could offer.

I must admit now that I have made one of the stupidest mistakes I have ever made on the Internet. And for what? For some one who turned out to be an “imbecile”,as you put it.

What bugs me most of all is the fact that I really believed,then,I was doing the right thing for a fellow human being who needed help so badly. Of course,my judgment was wrong and the price I have paid was extremely high(identity). As my good friend of old,OzarkMichael,said in one of his posts,addressed to me then,that he would do exactly what I did,and perhaps more,if the person involved was worth it,but in my case the person involved was not worth it,at all.

As to mentioning your name,it was me who did it. No harm intended. none whatsoever. I mentioned your name and the names of others to remind the “imbecile” that I was not the only one with whom he had DIFFICULTIES but several,including Sepharad,the LADY like poster who was/is no longer with us,and I believe there were other names my old age just could not remember their phony names.

That’s about it,Leefeller,and I hope all of the above may prove of some help to you. And thanks again for your magnanimity. And there is no animosity,indeed.

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By archivesDave, August 24, 2010 at 10:46 pm Link to this comment

C’on Guys….
Can’t we all jis git along????

Report this

By ofersince72, August 24, 2010 at 7:06 pm Link to this comment

You didn’t answer the question, as usual.

Are you still choking on all the horseshit you swallowed?

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, August 24, 2010 at 6:58 pm Link to this comment

Just cruising by the old Ground Zero Tolerance site and suddenly saw my name printed in vane.  Well it seems the relationship of the dysfunctional family thing is doing what it dost do best! May I ask what my name is doing under ITW’s in a conversation with the rewound Imbecile Truthdig3?

Sodium na I did not know we had any animosity going on between us, maybe you could fill me in so I know how to respond?

As for this article, I have no feelings for or against the building of a Muslim Mosaic one good thing,  from what I understand the guy promoting this is a supposed to be a peace nick, which is much more preferable to fanatics and Methodists.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 24, 2010 at 6:24 pm Link to this comment

ofersince72, August 24 at 7:44 pm Link to this comment

Inherit_The_Wind….


  I hate to be rude and jump in,

********************

Never stopped you before.  Except you usually then post 10 or 20 inane posts in a row….

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By Sodium-Na, August 24, 2010 at 3:49 pm Link to this comment

Thanks,ITW,for the tip. I will try to remember the puking from the horseshit and Cony Island’s stuff and use them for those who deserve them!!! Iam sure you know whom I have in mind.

Thanks again.

Report this

By ofersince72, August 24, 2010 at 3:44 pm Link to this comment

Inherit_The_Wind….


  I hate to be rude and jump in, but have swallowed

enough Administration horseshit yet, or are you still

choking?

Report this

By ofersince72, August 24, 2010 at 3:39 pm Link to this comment

Todays headlines

four women and three children killed in drone attack

eight more civilians killed by American forces

Relief agencies not allowed to use Pakistan airbase tied
to U.S.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Oh yes,  we need one more tolerance speech.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, August 24, 2010 at 2:59 pm Link to this comment

If you swallow enough horseshit, it will make you puke—or so they tell me.

And those con-webs (Conspiracy websites) pump out more horseshit than event the Coney Island Hot Dog Eaters can swallow.

Report this

By Sodium-Na, August 24, 2010 at 1:09 pm Link to this comment

Hey truedigger3,

Did you know why you were on the verge of puking?

I will tell you why,my boy:

You are full of beans-a lot of it.

And you are not even worth the stinky beans you are puking by now. OzarkMichael was absolutely right….......

Report this

By truedigger3, August 24, 2010 at 2:55 am Link to this comment

Sodium-Na,

Good boy.!  Oh, execuse me, I am sick on the verge of puking.!

Report this

By Sodium-Na, August 23, 2010 at 5:01 pm Link to this comment

Hey truedigger3,

How about saying Hi from you not only to ” my beloved Shenonymous”,as you put it,but also a Hi from you to each of the following persons?

~ Night-Gaunt.
~ Inherit The Wind.
~ Lee feller.
~ OzarkMichael.


Add to the above four,Sepharad,that real Zionist LADY who is no longer with us. In a sense,she perhaps,has more sense than the rest of us. 

My relationships with the above four were just fine before I was stupid enough to ruin them for your arse for which you immediately thanked me for,but a day or two later you called what I had done for you a “silly” thing,because you misinterpreted my honest call to stop the bickerings in due respect to the other posters who were not involved in our lousy and regrettable bickerings. If you think that I have forgotten your uncalled for insult,you are very wrong. I should have severed my communications with you right then. But,unfortunately,I thought it was a mistake,then,on your part,which had taken place in an un-guarded moment of anger and misunderstanding all human beings might fall into. I have find out gradually that was not so at all,but a fundamental problem in your psych.

Grow up,truedigger3,and watch out for what you write and stop insulting people for the slight disagreement. You certainly have insulted me to a point I could no longer ignore your un-justified insults. Enough is enough.

Have a nice day or evening.

Report this

By ofersince72, August 23, 2010 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

Hey Baby Boomers,

  I still invite you to google , Belafone cucurucucu,
and listen to My Space Carnegie Hall version, and everyone
keep listening until we get it.

  It is sad, that most young adults, even the ones working
in music stores, don’t even know the name.
So after you listen once again to one of the most
beautiful pieces ever recorded, turn a young adult on to
this, GREAT AMERICAN CULTURE, of the past.
And remind them what a great AMERICAN , HARRY BELAFONE is.

Report this

By truedigger3, August 23, 2010 at 2:35 pm Link to this comment

Sodium-Na,

I am not a CHAMELEON in any garden. I was confused about you, but now, thanks to you, I know who you really are. Mazel Tov buster!. And hey, don’t forget to say Hi from me to your beloved shenonymous!

Report this

By ofersince72, August 23, 2010 at 1:23 pm Link to this comment

From CommonDreams….article
GOP:  STAUNCH DEFENDERS OF CONSTITUTION….SOMETIMES,
    Republicans HOT, COLD on Constitution.
Bob Evans…...Associated Press

a posters response

delia_darrow   Augest 23rd 2010 3:50pm

Somebody quick,  is it safe to read this article??

I have a feeling from the title, this is yet another
“Democrats are different/better than Republicans”
  piece of journalistic trash.

Report this

By Sodium-Na, August 23, 2010 at 1:14 pm Link to this comment

For Inherit The Wind,

ITW,

Many thanks. Your real fabric have shone,inspite of the fact I was so hard on you two or three months ago. Please forget it. I am not your enemy. On the contrary,I am and will remain a good friend of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights,including the rights of Jews every where to live and prosper and raise their children without fear of anti-Semitism,hatred and bigotry. I have reasons to believe that the vast majority of Arabs,including Arabian Sinbad feels and believes as I do,inspite of the fact that Arabs and Israelis have been on each other throats for the last 62 years. Something got to change,sooner or later,for the better.

Thanks again for your support that came spontaneously from the heart. I could tell.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, August 23, 2010 at 12:27 pm Link to this comment


And listen to this: a preacher in the South has alread assigned a day for “Qura’n Burning” across the United States. Well,they flushed the Qura’n in the toilets of Guantanama. Hence,Desecrating the Qura’n again by burning it is really nothing new except this time it will be done according to the evil intent of the CHRISTIAN preacher,NATIONALLY and ACROSS the whole United States of America!!

Somebody gives me a break,please.

I’m with you! ANYONE who advocates burning books immediately aligns himself with Hitler, Mussolini and the Nazi and Fascist parties those two imps developed.

There is NEVER a valid reason to burn a book to make a political statement.

Report this

By Sodium-Na, August 23, 2010 at 9:48 am Link to this comment

Hey truedigger3,


You are the one who does not write “CLAIRLY?” as he claims. Since you are so sure of your knowledge of the English language,I must remind you that the correct spelling of your “CLAIRLY” IS “CLEARLY”. 

If I need a “remedial course in English”,as you claim,you definitely need to take Freshman English all over again,because you seem to be unaware of the REAL MEANINGS of the words and sentences you write.

No wonder you have so much troubles with so many posters around Truthdig’s website

If you think that I let you get away with your final response to me on the thread about Jews and Gentiles because you were correct in your twisting the meaning of my intent to meet your ENTRENCHED BELIEF PROBLEM,you were and are surly wrong. I let it go because you had bored me with your twisted claims and obnoxious behavior.

I have gradually reached the following conclusion about truedigger3:

* truedigger3 has an ego problem. He pretends to know it all,even the subject matters that are way way above his head,like his amusing claim that Al-Jazeera is a Zionist establishment. I have been watching Al-jazeera for years and claiming it as Zionist is outrageously and amuzingly unbelievable to me!!

* truedigger3 is sadly belonged to the type of the human species that is having CHAMELEON’s color changing ability.

* Islam and Muslims need no CHAMELEON on their side or in their gardens.

Get it,truedigger3??

Report this

By truedigger3, August 23, 2010 at 6:13 am Link to this comment

Sodium-Na wrote:
“(2) Truedigger3 accused the Muslims who are responsible for building the Islamic Center two blocks away from Ground Zero as “wishy washy” and their project as “suspecious and it smells RAT.” In other words,he wants them to use Arabian Sinbad’s method of blunt confrontation.
____________________________________________________

Sodium-Na,
I explained clairly why I am not happy with these people.
They are suspecious NOT because they are what you so call “confrontational”, but because they are reinforcing the belief, by their spinelessness and wishy washness to speak out, that ALL Muslim (1.3 billions of them) are some how responsible of the actions of misguided 19 terrorists which is not true and is not fair.
With all due respect, I think you need a remedial course in English. Lately I noticed you write something you then claim you didn’t mean or comment on somthing which is completely different of what you say you understood!.

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By Sodium-Na, August 23, 2010 at 5:27 am Link to this comment

Although I am not a Muslim,but I do respect Islam greatly and hold the true Muslims I have dealt with,for years,in high esteem,because I know what the ESSENCE and TRUE SPIRIT of Islam are and because I know the goodness of the Muslim people I dealt with for more than 20 years,due to job obligations. Therefore,I have felt it is imperative to make this point very clear,being none Muslim,before saying what I intend to say below.

I wonder what Muslims in America should do appropriately to defend their faith and their rights,guaranteed by the U.S.Constitution!!

(1) Anarcissie did not like the bluntiness and confrontational way Arabian Sinbad by which he defended his faith and rights as a Muslim,telling him to calm down since antagonizing everyone in sight would not serve his cause.

(2) Truedigger3 accused the Muslims who are responsible for building the Islamic Center two blocks away from Ground Zero as “wishy washy” and their project as “suspecious and it smells RAT.” In other words,he wants them to use Arabian Sinbad’s method of blunt confrontation.

It seems to me that the people who are responsible for building the Islamic center are following the none-confrontational method suggested implicitly by Anarcissie,which probably is the way to follow under current environments hostility and hatred toward Islam and Muslims. 

Question: What Muslims have to do with what Truedigger3 called for,in an environment full of hostility and hatred towards Islam and Muslims?

And listen to this: a preacher in the South has alread assigned a day for “Qura’n Burning” across the United States. Well,they flushed the Qura’n in the toilets of Guantanama. Hence,Desecrating the Qura’n again by burning it is really nothing new except this time it will be done according to the evil intent of the CHRISTIAN preacher,NATIONALLY and ACROSS the whole United States of America!!

Somebody gives me a break,please.

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Arabian Sinbad's avatar

By Arabian Sinbad, August 23, 2010 at 4:04 am Link to this comment

By Sodium-Na, August 23 at 2:23 am Link to this comment

Pursuant to Diamond’s outstanding post about Muhammad,The Messenger of God,I highly recommend reading the following book:
===========================
Thank you Sodium-Na for this enlightened and educated post. I was extremely elated by reading your enlightened comment above and others you wrote lately. It is people like you who neutralize the pain one feels when reading the rants of the ignorant bigots.

May you continue to be blessed with your mental, spiritual and physical health so you can continue to be a warrior for truth and justice!

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By truedigger3, August 23, 2010 at 1:40 am Link to this comment

I am baffled and perplxed by the behaviour of the people behind the Mosque Project. Instead of comming out stongly and condemning the BLAMING of 911 on the whole Muslims of the world of about 1.3-1.4 billions people, instead of the just 19 terrorists, they were wishy washy talking about building bridges, like that ALL Muslims , some how, were guilty of 911 and want to attone for it, which is pure nonsense and unfair.
Who are the people behind that Mosque project and who is financing them. Why did thet call it the Cordoba project, it is the Goldn AGE in spain, but it is controversial under the current circumstances.
I am baffled and very suspecious and it smells RAT.!!

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By ofersince72, August 22, 2010 at 11:15 pm Link to this comment

They are clapping all over the Muslim world.

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By Sodium-Na, August 22, 2010 at 10:23 pm Link to this comment

Pursuant to Diamond’s outstanding post about Muhammad,The Messenger of God,I highly recommend reading the following book:

Muhammad
A Prophet For Our Time
By
Karen Armstrong

Another book which is worth having at any personal or home library is the following book:

The 100:A Ranking Of The Most Influential Persons In History.
By
Michael H. Hart

WARNING: If one is a bigot and cannot control his or her bigotry like Call Me Roy,these two books are not for him or her because they will make him or her a real miserable creature.

But,for those who have open minds and willing to learn the truth about Muhammad and Islam as I who had spent slightly more than four years studying Islam,stemed from my fondness of the Arabic Language and its beautiful poetry and prose,they surly will learn and they certainly will broaden their minds’horizons.

Cheers for Diamond whose profoundly honest and knowledgeable and outstanding post about Muhammad has compelled me to write all of the foregoing. Thank you,Diamond.

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, August 22, 2010 at 6:33 pm Link to this comment

poolman, August 22 at 10:01 pm:

‘Here is a perspective regarding the construction of the “Ground Zero Mosque” that connects it to the Council on Foreign Relations.’

I think the conspiracy theory slot for the present circus has already been taken.

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poolman's avatar

By poolman, August 22, 2010 at 6:01 pm Link to this comment

Here is a perspective regarding the construction of the “Ground Zero Mosque” that connects it to the Council on Foreign Relations.

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By archivesDave, August 22, 2010 at 5:55 pm Link to this comment

Rush Limbaugh on the Bilderbergs:
Do we believe him or Alex Jones?...
I’ll take Jones!
http://economycollapse.blogspot.com/2010/08/rush-limbaugh-on-bilderberg-group.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+blogspot/CRkw+(The+Economy++Collapse)&utm_content=Yahoo!+Mail

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By Inherit The Wind, August 22, 2010 at 5:53 pm Link to this comment

Die Hard Wannabee (AKA, CallMeRoy):

Your diatribe was immediately filled with obvious falsehoods and you added to them repeatedly.

I’m a Jew and a supporter of Israel’s right to exist (but not the right to enact her current policies) and am called “Zionist” here all the time.

But your falsehoods were disgusting.
1) The islamic center isn’t a “few hundred feet away”, it’s two full city blocks away.  AND it’s restoring a dump of a building.
2) The building won’t mimic the WTC.  How can a 13 story building “mimic” the 110 story twin towers?  And looking like a stick of butter on end isn’t imitation—it’s the shape of too many modern buildings. It can’t even be called a “skyscraper”, not when the first skyscraper, the FlatIron building, is 27 stories.
3) Islam doesn’t deny other religions.  Christians and Jews are described as “People of the Scriptures” and, the Qu’ran has Jesus as the second greatest prophet, second only to Mohammed. There’s even a book of Mary, mother of Jesus.  The intolerance and hatred is relegated to a smaller number of extremist, just like the Chasidic Orthodox in Israel or the intolerant fundamentalist Christians here who want to interfere in people’s private bedrooms.
4) Your “history” of the Moorish occupation of Iberia defies all history of the place.  Among Jews, it is known as the “Second Jerusalem” for its tolerance.  Jews even served as generals in the Moorish armies.
5) 1492 didn’t mark the end of Moorish occupation of Iberia, there still existed one last Moorish kingdom.  What 1492 signified, instead, was the CHRISTIAN expulsion of all the Jews in Spain.
6) Without Moorish Spain, there would never have been a Renaissance.  Ancient works were lost to Europe but retained in the Middle East and North Africa.  Their conduit into Europe was via Spain.

You remind me of an old Firesign Theater joke: “Everything you know is wrong.”

A-S:  Your continued wishes for peoples’ deaths is why characters like Roy can get away with posting this garbage, which is nothing but a pack of lies.

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By archivesDave, August 22, 2010 at 5:46 pm Link to this comment

Here is one for the history books that was left out:
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/624.html

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By poolman, August 22, 2010 at 2:35 pm Link to this comment

Pfeeeww!! The first thing to do is uncheck the little “Notify you when others comment on this article?” box, for sure.

call me Roy - you could tell the same story regarding the crusades and the conquering of the Americas.  Get it??!!  RADICAL Religion is BAD from ANY branch it grew from.  If that is Hal Lindsey’s stand and you are just the ditto chamber, may God deal with you both for promoting hate.  Go read the Sermon on the Mount to get a clue.  Chapter 5 in Matthew, if you are that lost…

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By whole2th, August 22, 2010 at 2:13 pm Link to this comment

“The mainstream media continues to push the mosque story hour after hour, day
after day, from the perspective of both the left and the right, manufacturing a
controversy that plays on a now indentured fear of Islam that has been cooked up
over the last nine years via endless phony “muslim” terror plots and concocted “al
qaeda” threats.”

The imam promoting the Islamic community center is connected to the Council on
Foreign Relations.  Now the fanning of hate is making more sense.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/ground-zero-mosque-imam-is-globalist-
stooge.html

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By whole2th, August 22, 2010 at 2:08 pm Link to this comment

@Call me Roy:  Here is a symbol of conquest over the United States: 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/13/rahm-emanuel-lights-
natio_n_390552.html

Reminds me of the marines planting the flag at Iwo Jima

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By ThomasG, August 22, 2010 at 1:57 pm Link to this comment

So far as I know more than 200 Muslims were killed in the collapse of the World Trade Center, WTC, on September 11, 2001.

Is the death of the Muslims that died in the 9/11/2001 Collapse of the WTC as irrelevant as the numbers of Native people who died in the U.S. Government’s War Against the Native Nations of North America? 

Or, is it time to acknowledge that there are terrorists on all sides, and start on all sides to work our way toward a dynamic solution for terrorism, rather than a polarized solution for terrorism that does not acknowledge the totality of the dynamic use of terrorism by all concerned?


“The overwhelming majority of casualties were civilians, including nationals of over 70 countries.”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks#cite_note-2


Almost 3,000 people died in 9/11, and approximately 60 of those were Muslim. The 9/11 casualty figures are often revised because of the nature of the tragedy, but based on these estimates some 2% of the casualties were Muslim.

The Muslim population of the U.S. is 1.8 million people, or 0.6% of all U.S. citizens. Muslims actually suffered more than THREE TIMES THE 9/11 CASUALTIES you might expect from a random sample of average America.
http://www.rotterdamny.info/m-1280344342/

The Myth that the Muslim World Celebrated the Attacks of 9/11
http://www.floppingaces.net/2010/08/01/the-myth-that-the-muslim-world-celebrated-the-attacks-of-911/

The following statements, images, and links are provided by the Study of Islam Section at the American Academy of Religion.
http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

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By ThomasG, August 22, 2010 at 1:54 pm Link to this comment

So far as I know more than 200 Muslims were killed in the collapse of the World Trade Center, WTC, on September 11, 2001.

Is the death of the Muslims that died in the 9/11/2001 Collapse of the WTC as irrelevant as the numbers of Native people who died in the U.S. Government’s War Against the Native Nations of North America? 

Or, is it time to acknowledge that there are terrorists on all sides, and start on all sides to work our way toward a dynamic solution for terrorism, rather than a polarized solution for terrorism that does not acknowledge the totality of the dynamic use of terrorism by all concerned?


“The overwhelming majority of casualties were civilians, including nationals of over 70 countries.”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks#cite_note-2


Almost 3,000 people died in 9/11, and [at the very least] approximately 60 of those were Muslim. The 9/11 casualty figures are often revised because of the nature of the tragedy, but based on these estimates some 2% of the casualties were Muslim.

The Muslim population of the U.S. is 1.8 million people, or 0.6% of all U.S. citizens. Muslims actually suffered more than THREE TIMES THE 9/11 CASUALTIES you might expect from a random sample of average America.
http://www.rotterdamny.info/m-1280344342/

The Myth that the Muslim World Celebrated the Attacks of 9/11
http://www.floppingaces.net/2010/08/01/the-myth-that-the-muslim-world-celebrated-the-attacks-of-911/

The following statements, images, and links are provided by the Study of Islam Section at the American Academy of Religion.
http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

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By diamond, August 22, 2010 at 1:36 pm Link to this comment

Call me Roy is in Plato’s cave, in the dark. Being in the dark makes him afraid so he wants everyone else to join him in the dark. You shouldn’t spread lies CMR, it just makes you look like an hysterical bigot. People know what you’re saying is just a hate-fuelled mush of ignorance and distorted historical fact. I was waiting for you to say that it’s 13 stories high because it’s going to be built by the devil. Disappointing in a way that you didn’t exploit that angle.

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By Arabian Sinbad, August 22, 2010 at 1:28 pm Link to this comment

By call me Roy, August 22 at 4:46 pm Link to this comment

A Masque Next To Ground Zero by Hal Lindsey
===========================================
I call you bigot and the advocate of the Devil! I can see that you were in a rush to post your diatribe to the point that you misspelled the word “MOSQUE.”

I hope that you can be cured someway from your bigotry or otherwise be consumed by it till you drop dead!

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By call me roy, August 22, 2010 at 12:46 pm Link to this comment

A Masque Next To Ground Zero by Hal Lindsey

The plan is to build a 13-story Muslim mosque and cultural center literally only a few hundred feet from Ground Zero in lower Manhattan. The leader of the project, Imam Abdul Rauf, says that the mosque is intended as a gesture to build “bridges between faiths.” Another proponent claims that the mosque, which will occupy the site of a 152-year old building that suffered damage in the 9/11 attack, is really a “celebration of America’s religious tolerance.” Why would a religion founded on fealty to one law, one leader, and one god—a religion whose modern defining characteristic is its intolerance of all other faiths and traditions—actually “celebrate” America’s religious diversity. That’s the very thing Islam HATES about us. How could a religion that reduces women and girls to mere chattel and considers all non-Muslims to be second-class citizens conceivably “celebrate” a non-Muslim society that believes all humans are created equal in God’s sight? It’s laughable. Yet our leaders and the media-types have fallen for it hook, line, and sinker. Are they that stupid or have they been intimidated into acquiescence? New York City already has more than 100 mosques. We’ve already proven that we really are an open, tolerant society. To say with a straight face that this is Islam’s celebration of America’s religious tolerance would be like the Southern Baptists building a church in Amsterdam’s infamous Red Light District to “celebrate” Holland’s sexual promiscuity. It doesn’t make sense because it doesn’t make sense.
I’ll tell you why the Muslims insist on putting a 13-story mega-mosque (which, by the way, will eerily resemble a World Trade Center tower) within earshot of Ground Zero. It will be nothing less than a traditional act of Islamic triumphalism. It’s a symbol of conquest. Although the Muslims have changed the name of the proposed structure to “Park 51 Mosque,” the campaign to build it is still called “The Cordoba Initiative.” For all of you I’m going to share with you a short history lesson about the symbolism of “Cordoba” in the Islamic mind. And trust me, the Muslims are big on symbolism.
The world should know that the ‘Cordoba Initiative,’ the New York City based organization desiring to construct a massive Islamic house of prayer at ‘Ground Zero,’ has posted on its website, a peculiar and disingenuous statement indicating the desire to bring back the atmosphere of, “interfaith tolerance and respect that we have longed for since Muslims, Christians and Jews lived together in harmony and prosperity eight hundred years ago.”
I point this out because contemporary scholarship has clearly demonstrated that there was no ‘harmony’ or ‘prosperity’ for non-Muslims in Islamic Spain. The Cordoba Initiative is attempting to revisit some sort of mythical “tolerance and respect” which never existed.
What is irrefutable is that living under Islam, the non-Muslim population was always mandated to submit to Islam, accept discriminatory laws, and make payment of a mandatory Quranic tax imposed upon every non-Muslim. For a period of about 800 years, most of Spain was ruled by Muslims and this area was known as ‘Al-Andalus.’ Islamic rule ended in 1492, when the city of Granada, the last Muslim kingdom in Western Europe, capitulated to the Spanish Catholics. (Continued)

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By call me roy, August 22, 2010 at 12:40 pm Link to this comment

A Masque Next To Ground Zero (Continued)

The Cordoba Initiative is an organization whose very name makes reference to what was, 1,000 years ago, one of the world’s most advanced cities, Cordoba, Al-Andalus (Spain). This was a city that was politically and religiously dominated by Islam, and a city that was conquered by jihad (holy war). Today, there are Islamic groups such as Al-Qaeda that have a dream of seeing a pan-Islamic world that would extend from old Al-Andalus (Spain). This is based upon Islam’s principle of dar-al-Islam, which means a world where Islamic sovereignty prevails over the citizenry. Dar-al-Islam is attained through jihad and the media is replete with Al- Qaeda’s calls for jihad and their claims to Al-Andalus and its major cities such as Cordoba.

Clearly, Islamic Cordoba was once a city where a number of intellectual Muslims such as Averroes (Ibn-Rushd), influenced European thought with Arab philosophy related to the scientific teachings of Aristotle. In mathematics, the Arabs built upon the foundations of Greek mathematicians. At one point there were dozens of free schools in Cordoba for the education of poor Arabs and at some point there existed some 600 mosques. However, even with all of this scholastic and societal grandeur, the route to get to such a point of magnificence was through violent warfare.

Not only were successive battles for Spanish cities bloody, but desiring more than Spain—the Arabs declared a jihad against France, then crossed the Pyrenees, and in successive swarms spread over the southern regions of the French countryside, slaughtering the Christians by thousands, and burning their churches to the ground before being halted.
We must remember that a practice associated with conquering Islamic armies was the construction of a mosque at the location where their triumphant battle was won. Thus, this modern Islamic organization is seeking to build a mosque at the site of 9/11 attack—an attack which was carried out by 19 Muslim hijackers who considered their mission holy war.

Insomuch, it is this man’s opinion that a Muslim house of prayer that would be cemented in the ashes of catastrophe at the foot of New York’s lost Twin Towers would be a symbolic victory flag for Muslims who seek the destruction of America. Further, it is my honest opinion that no matter how the construction of a mosque at ‘Ground Zero’ may be perceived by well-meaning Americans, the construction of a mosque on the spot where Al-Qaeda brought jihad to the United States will unquestionably represent victory to the worldwide forces of Radical Islam.
What bothers me, though, is the double standard. Diners at a senior citizens center in Georgia can’t publicly say grace over a federally-subsidized meal. The Left says that amounts to a government endorsement of religion. But the President can make a pronouncement defining Islamic theology at a Ramadan dinner in the White House, and that ISN’T a government endorsement of religion?

So, in other words, Liberals, Progressives, and MSNBC Pravda worshippers, if the Big Bad Wolf tells you that he won’t eat you?

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By ofersince72, August 22, 2010 at 11:04 am Link to this comment

Kind of reminds me of all the beautiful campaign

speeches by the crook we have as president now.

Buy my words, nevermind,  my speeches are free,

but my acts as president are very expensive and YOU can’t

afford them, tough luck ! !

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By Inherit The Wind, August 22, 2010 at 10:18 am Link to this comment

A-S:

Contradictions don’t exist.  When you find one, check your premises.

My views on Islam haven’t changed in many, many years, long before 9/11.

Your vision of me is what’s at fault.

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By ofersince72, August 22, 2010 at 10:06 am Link to this comment

You all are going to follow your masters right

into Mexico with you TOLERANCE, behind lies, fabrication,

distortion, racism, opression, thievery and everything

else that comes with American Imperialism.
AND GUESS WHAT?  YOU ALL WILL BE FIGHTING FOR THE
ERECTION OF SOME MEXICAN CULTURAL CENTER TEN YEARS LATER.
bcause you are the “liberal elites” and have tolerance.

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By ofersince72, August 22, 2010 at 10:01 am Link to this comment

I just love the tolerance that the U.S.

displayed in the overthrow of the Honduras governmet.

and the tolerance given to Hugo Chavez.

The lies about Drug Cartels in Mexico, that is quite
tolerant.  All the Civil unrest in Mexico is being
blamed on Drug Cartels.
The same lame name game they have played with the word
TERROISM in Muslim countries.
You may be or may not be tolerant, this mosque game doesn’t prove one bit of tolerance by you elite liberals.
You all have showed a hell of a lot of intolerance and
ignorance with the policy that you all have supported
over the last forty years and are still supporting.

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By ofersince72, August 22, 2010 at 9:52 am Link to this comment

There is a big confusion in America today

of what the difference is between TOLERANCE AND SYMBOLISM.

(or is it just a disguise)

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By ofersince72, August 22, 2010 at 9:36 am Link to this comment

And it makes me “feel so good”  to see all the

TOLERANCE come out of the woodwork in America.

Now go for a drive in your Jeep CHEROKEE ! ! ! !

while so little is known ABOUT the history of that nation,
just their “TRAIL OF TEARS”.

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By ofersince72, August 22, 2010 at 9:24 am Link to this comment

The United States built expensive, massive, well

fortified , fortress’ in Iraq,  well manned and not

ever planned to be abandoned.  Did we ask for tolerance?

One of the largest airstrips in the world is in
Afghanistan,  did we ask for tolerance?

SCREW this “FEEL GOOD” crap, just to ease a conscience.

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By Arabian Sinbad, August 22, 2010 at 9:08 am Link to this comment

Now that there is hope of enlightenment, thanks to DIAMOND, for people like ITW, may I suggest that people with open minds read, “The Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Jews and Christians Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain,” by Maria Rosa Menocal, a Catholic professor at Yale.

The “Ornament of the Word” being a description given to Cordoba under the auspices of Islam by a German nun who visited the place, which Menocal found so pertinent to borrow it as the title of her book. This is indeed an illuminating and inspiring work, in which Menocal shows us what was lost and reminds us of what might be.

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By ofersince72, August 22, 2010 at 9:07 am Link to this comment

For about twenty years,  all American, and some

foreign cars were named for some Indian tribe..

A good percentage of our high schools and colleges

sports teams were named for some Indian tribe.

So this mosque thingy, and all the pretty rhetoric
of tolerance is of little substance.

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By ofersince72, August 22, 2010 at 8:54 am Link to this comment

It is the same way the everyone loves the

AMERICAN NATIVE INDIAN now.  Good for us,  aren’t

we a tolerante , civil, democratic class ! ! ! !

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By Arabian Sinbad, August 22, 2010 at 8:52 am Link to this comment

diamond, August 21 at 7:53 pm Link to this comment

“Actually Anarcissie, Mohammad was a man who rode camels in camel caravans across the desert. He was employed by a widow named Khadija, the owner of the caravan business, who was a lot older than him. In spite of this they fell in love and married and she had six children with him. He married his female boss and anyone with even the slightest acquaintance with the ‘Koran’ knows that he was not interested in repressing women.”
======================
Diamond, great and enlightened post indeed! And what makes your post even greater is that you had a person like ITW agreeing with you.

If I were the one who wrote such words, and I remember posting something similar to it in defense of the Islamic original teachings sometime ago, people like ITW would be all over the place trying to prove me wrong.

That’s why your short simple post is worth many precious DIAMONDS indeed and I am deeply thankful to you for it!

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By ofersince72, August 22, 2010 at 8:50 am Link to this comment

Anyone on this planet can “talk the talk”,

actions rarely follow the talk.

We also see that in Palistine, Iraq, and the other

Muslim nations that we are subverting, then talking

of tolerance.

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By ofersince72, August 22, 2010 at 8:40 am Link to this comment

That was a great post,

There is point though, that the hypocracy of religion
and political rhetoric collide.

We see it in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yeaman, Pakistan and
elsewhere.  Talking tolerance, and supporting aggression
to me is just another “feel good”.

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By truedigger3, August 22, 2010 at 7:57 am Link to this comment

I add my voice to diamond, ardee and ITW.
Peace on earth and harmony and understanding between all people.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 22, 2010 at 7:27 am Link to this comment

ardee, August 22 at 9:35 am Link to this comment

diamond, August 21 at 7:53 pm

Just a note in appreciation of this post, one that tells the truth and cuts through the propaganda surrounding the worlds most popular organized religion. Thank ever so much for it.
**************************

I whole-heartedly agree! (How’s that for weird? Me, agreeing with Diamond and Ardee simultaneously!)

I would add that a whole branch of Islamic scholars is arguing that Mohammed didn’t try to convert the Jews and the Christians BECAUSE THEY WERE ALREADY WORSHIPING THE ONE, TRUE GOD! (as Mohammed saw it). Instead, he sought to bring the Word to the pagan and heathen Arabs (as they would be viewed at the time).  This is why Jews and Christians are considered a) People of the Book b) Incomplete Muslims (because they haven’t yet accepted The Prophet).  Again, the parallels between today’s extremists compare to Christianity’s denial of its Jewish heritage.  In some things all people are the same…sadly.

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By ardee, August 22, 2010 at 5:35 am Link to this comment

diamond, August 21 at 7:53 pm

Just a note in appreciation of this post, one that tells the truth and cuts through the propaganda surrounding the worlds most popular organized religion. Thank ever so much for it.

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By whole2th, August 21, 2010 at 7:36 pm Link to this comment

As we approach the anniversery of this act of war, 9-11, that took the lives of
3,000 Americans and as we are all inundated with the cries “NEVER FORGET!”–
indeed, let us NEVER FORGET Israel’s role in bringing this all about.

Using RICO statutes (racketeering) the mass media which has been complicit in
the cover-up—promoting the lies of 9-11—should be seized and assets
redistributed to ethical journalists.  Many US traitors should confess—putting
the ringleaders on the gallows for public hangings.

ReDiscover911.com/introduction

The hatred directed to Islamics is turning toward the criminal Zionists as people
awaken to the fact that Israel—not Islamics—did 9-11 along with gentile
traitors within the U.S.

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By Anarcissie, August 21, 2010 at 6:16 pm Link to this comment

Spooky-43—One of the problems with agitation about human rights in other countries is that the issue has been repeatedly used by imperialists to promote their agendas, which actually of course having nothing to do with anyone’s rights.  However, there are several international organizations which one can support that pursue human rights, including specifically the rights of women, which seem to be free of the taint of imperial manipulation.  Also, we could change our immigration laws so that at least some women who wanted to get out of the predicament of being in these countries could escape.  From what I’ve heard, being female in Saudi Arabia ought to be an unquestionable justification for political asylum.  This is off the subject of Islam, however.

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By diamond, August 21, 2010 at 3:53 pm Link to this comment

Actually Anarcissie, Mohammad was a man who rode camels in camel caravans across the desert. He was employed by a widow named Khadija, the owner of the caravan business, who was a lot older than him. In spite of this they fell in love and married and she had six children with him. He married his female boss and anyone with even the slightest acquaintance with the ‘Koran’ knows that he was not interested in repressing women.

A lot of people think that the present mistreatment of women in some Muslim countries is mandated in the ‘Koran’. In fact, Mohammad was a reformer on gender politics. He brought in many laws that gave women rights and protections they had not had before. But as is often the case after a period of reform, a period of reaction can set in when conservatism reasserts itself. It happened around 70 years after Jesus died: he also asserted a woman’s right to respect and even to learning but a wave of reaction overturned his teachings on this to the extent that Mary Magdalene, who was in fact one of the leaders of the early Christian church, was re-created as a prostitute for the church’s purposes of showing that women were not meant to be leaders in the Christian religion because they don’t want to ordain women.

The same thing happened after Mohammad died, a time of fierce reaction and debate as well as conflict set in and Mohammad’s essential message on women’s rights and place in society was overturned and more repressive laws and customs took their place.

1. The ‘Koran’ does not say women should wear the veil or the burqa, only that they should dress modestly.

2. The ‘Koran’ does not say that girls and women can be murdered by their families, it certainly does not recommend or even mention ‘honour killings’ it says that both the man and the woman should be flogged one hundred lashes. And that only if they have admitted their adultery three times in front of witnesses or have been caught in the act. Under this law most of the women arrested, imprisoned and killed for adultery in extremist Muslim countries would never have been charged. This is just not how the law is carried out under Sharia law. These parts of the “Koran’ are simply ignored and have been replaced by cruel and barbaric customs (rather than religious laws) such as female genital mutilation, the veil, the burqa, stoning of women (which was part of Jewish law in Jesus’ time)and ‘honour killings’.

The vast majority of Muslims do not practice these things and have no interest in doing so. And those who want to collectively damn the entire religion should remember Christianity’s tawdry history with such things as burning witches and so called heretics in the Inquisition and encouraging ignorance, fear, paranoia, war and poverty wherever it could. There’s a reason the pope lives in a palace and has his own state and it’s not virtue. The Vatican’s misogyny and injustice to women has as little to do with the teachings of Jesus as honour killings and throwing acid in women’s faces have to do with the teachings of Mohammad.

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By Spooky-43, August 21, 2010 at 10:35 am Link to this comment

Every religion and every culture suddenly deserves absolute tolerance, irregardless of their actual doctrine or acts. 

My tolerance is having some real problems, not due to the violent terrorist acts committed by the few which make the headlines, nor the doctrine of the holy words which are culturally imperialist at best, but because of the terrorist acts against females who offend their bigoted husbands and fathers, and the holy words and culture which supports and justifies it and the heinous punishments which sometimes follow.

When you find yourself a member of any group which commits horrendous acts, you should end your relationship, if possible, or spend great energy condemning those actions publicly.  Maybe this is happening, but I don’t see it. 

What I would support at Ground Zero would be a Muslim Center which devotes itself to protecting the rights and giving shelter and security to these abused women and girls. 

That would help my tolerance levels quite a bit, rather than another huge area for Muslim men to worship 5 times a day.  (how come I never see any women in those clips showing Muslim worshp?  Do they have to go to their own area?)

Why are there not more Americans demanding rights for these women and girls?  I don’t understand it.

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By Peetawonkus, August 21, 2010 at 9:18 am Link to this comment

Let’s condemn an entire group of people for the actions of a few. Hey, why not start a war with Italy because of the Mafia. Let the bombing commence. That oughta show those idol worshiping Catholic gelato lickers.

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By Arabian Sinbad, August 21, 2010 at 8:22 am Link to this comment

By truedigger3, August 21 at 5:44 am Link to this comment

“Not a single politician, and as far as I know, a newspaper columnist, came out and said it straight, that the 911 terrorists were just 19 men out of 1.3 billion Muslims, and that commonsense and basic justice and decency can’t judge 1.3 billion people by the action of 19 men.”
========================
truedigger3, though we are on the same page as to the essence of your comment, I would add that the “19 so-called Muslim suspected terrorists” don’t represent 1.5 billion Muslims.” The word “SUSPECTED” is very important here, since millions of people around the world believe that the 9/11 was an inside false flag operation and that those so-called 19, along with about 300 Muslims who perished in the ruins of the Word Trade Center, were some of its victims.

The burden of proof beyond any shadow of doubt of those responsible for 9/11 still lies on the shoulders of a true international independent commission that has yet to be assembled. Official political-military America and Israel have a known history of false flag operations to justify certain ends.

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By Anarcissie, August 21, 2010 at 8:01 am Link to this comment

truedigger3—A few politicians and media people said the right thing.  I agree that Mr. O’s performance was pretty sad.  We didn’t even get the soaring rhetoric this time.  The man had a golden opportunity to exert some leadership, and the talent to do it, and he just muffed the chance.  Very, very sad.

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By archivesDave, August 21, 2010 at 3:46 am Link to this comment

Just in case many of you aren’t aware of it, (including our illustrious editor Mr Scheer), our war remains with the Global Shadow Elites and just in case some of you die hard Progressive Liberal Socialists aren’t completely convinced, here is a link for your eyes only:
http://rt.com/Politics/2010-08-19/castro-lashes-bilderberg-group.html

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By truedigger3, August 21, 2010 at 1:44 am Link to this comment

Not a single politician, and as far as I know, a newspaper columnist, came out and said it straight, that the 911 terrorists were just 19 men out of 1.3 billion Muslims, and that commonsense and basic justice and decency cann’t judge 1.3 billion peope by the action of 19 men.
All of these politicians, including Obama, gave half hearted talk about the constitution and many of them, including Obama backpaddled asking about the “wisdom” of building a Mosque near the WTC site, which in plain English say that ALL Muslims are somehow responsible for 911.
The whole Mosque episode is sickening and disgusting, and show how politics and politicians in US have degenerated and rotted inside out.
This Mosque episode, will tarnish the reputation of US abroad for a long time to come, and make US the laughing stock of the whole world.

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By Anarcissie, August 20, 2010 at 8:51 pm Link to this comment

On the other hand, Muhammad was a trader, a merchant, not the son of a poor carpenter or of a rich king.  Maybe Islam is the middle-class religion.

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By rico, suave, August 20, 2010 at 8:37 pm Link to this comment

Anar:

I don’t think it will work this time. It’s a religion after all, not a political ideology.

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By Anarcissie, August 20, 2010 at 5:52 pm Link to this comment

rico, suave, August 20 at 8:09 pm:
‘Tolerance. Hmmm.

The most intolerant religion on the planet looking for tolerance. A new high for cynicism.’

We’re corrupting them.

It worked with the Communists.

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rico, suave's avatar

By rico, suave, August 20, 2010 at 4:09 pm Link to this comment

Tolerance. Hmmm.

The most intolerant religion on the planet looking for tolerance. A new high for cynicism.

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Blackspeare's avatar

By Blackspeare, August 20, 2010 at 1:01 pm Link to this comment

Eventually Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf will be able to get a slot on that TV reality series. “Home Makeover”.

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By Martin P. Serna, August 20, 2010 at 12:39 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Would the moderatores of this web-site PLEASE do what they promise and moderate the writing that is posted for every article on this site including for this article. These posts are much of the topic of the article. I donot want to read or talk about September 11 for this article and Justin Weleski’s contributions are just inappropriate. Truthdig should completely stop their scientific mumbojumbo and critical analysis of readers contributions and PROVE to us that THEY want to further Americans’ and the worlds’ province to cope and deal with all that we are living through. Academics want to direct the direction of the conversation to their own ends. Truthdig, please stop this now.

American morals, charactor, and values are questioned. From my experience I report that America is going down the toilet. It takes much time, effort, and resources to examine what our forefathers thought. I understand that they were terrific psychologists but, but our times would be incomprehensible to them. I once had a teacher who said that one can only critisize a class if you got a “A” in it. More of us should look into the founding fathers and perchance might be better able to life in the world we are living in now even, if we only begin to look into this.

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By omygodnotagain, August 20, 2010 at 10:27 am Link to this comment

What makes this whole affair so perverse, is the growing body of evidence that this was a false flag operation undertaken by Mossad and some US Black Opps.  This comes not only from Dancing Israelis who turned out to be Mossad agents, nor the supposed hijackers, some of which are alive and well, nor does it come from the questionable science as to how the towers fell especially WTC 7 which was not hit by a plane but fell like a stone.  It is coming because those outside who specialize in fields such as speech pattern, linguistics are convinced Osama Bin Laden died in December of 200.
Assessing the evidence, Angelo M. Codevilla, a former U.S. intelligence officer who studied Soviet disinformation techniques during the Cold War and a professor of international relations at Boston University, wryly concluded that “Elvis Presley is more alive today than Osama bin Laden.”

Why is this relevant? Because the supposed messages from Bin Laden have been traced to a group with a strange pedigree “Almost every statement by Osama bin Laden published on the Internet…is first made public by SITE and IntelCenter,” according to a Spiegel Online profile of Rita Katz, Josh Devon and Ben Venzke, who founded the two companies that supposedly track al-Qaeda online.

SITE co-founder Rita Katz is an Iraqi-born Jew, whose father was publicly hanged in Iraq after the 1967 War as an Israeli spy. Katz, who served in the Israeli Defense Forces, tries to downplay the significance of her background but is not always successful”

On September 24 2001 Osama Bin Laden catagorically denied he had anything to do with 9/11.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 20, 2010 at 9:11 am Link to this comment

And, by the way, I am not a “troll doing my best to make Arabs and Muslims look bad, because I am honest enough to admit that many Arabs and Muslims of the world, particularly their political regimes,  are equally criminals through their hypocrisy, inaction, defeatism and cowardliness, for allowing a bunch of racist, marauders-occupiers to occupy, dispossess,  and oppress those who were supposed to be their brethren.
*************************

Translation: All the Arab and Moslem nations need to band together and attack and destroy Israel, wiping out every last Jew. No room for compromise, no room for negotiation, no room for a 2-state solution.

Some “citizen of the world”! As long as that world is Moslem and ready to make the war HE wants.

Notice his ONLY criticism of his fellow Moslems is for not waging war against Israel.  Everyone who won’t fight that war for him is a “criminal”.

And he’s going to (try to) punch me in the face until I beg for mercy. Yup.  Good luck with that plan.

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By Anarcissie, August 20, 2010 at 8:32 am Link to this comment

Sinbad, if you’re not a troll you need to take a deep breath and calm down.  Hysterically denouncing everyone in sight is not helping your cause.

There are lots of human trolls; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

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Arabian Sinbad's avatar

By Arabian Sinbad, August 20, 2010 at 7:46 am Link to this comment

By Anarcissie, August 19 at 3:18 pm Link to this comment

“ITW—‘Sinbad’ may well be a troll or a pseudo, doing his best to make Arabs or Muslims look bad.”
============================================
Anarcissie, since you had the audacity of fantasizing that I “may be a troll” and giving yourself the freedom of inserting your “tail” between me and ITW, then I have the right to fantasize about you being a creature with a long tail and two horns sticking out of the sides of your ugly head.” I hope you have little brains left in that head to understand what I mean!

But that’s not all; I want to assure you that I am a true human being, made of bones, flesh and emotions and that I mean every word I post on these threads; for words and angry words are the only weapons I have left to express my grievances against all Zionists and Zionist sympathizers; in fact against all American taxpayers who are a great part of the cause of my grievances, and that includes myself who is one of those American taxpayers. Believe it or not I am angry at myself to the point that I hate myself, because I am, besides you and ITW and millions of other Americans, are all criminal hypocrites, participants in many of the evils happening in the world. The only innocent of things that are Americans are the homeless Americans, American children who don’t pay taxes, American homeless who don’t have money to pay tax on, the remnants of Native Americans who are the survivors of the Holocaust perpetrated against them by the white European’s marauders-occupiers of their lands.

This brings me to further identify myself: I am a world citizen who through the accident of birth happened to be a son of Palestine. I consider myself a survivor of the “minor-and-slower Holocaust” that has been perpetrated against Palestinians by the evil Zionists and their supporters American taxpayers, and since I have been one of them for 35 years now, I stand accused of being an evil participant in all American crimes against humanity!

And, by the way, I am not a “troll doing my best to make Arabs and Muslims look bad, because I am honest enough to admit that many Arabs and Muslims of the world, particularly their political regimes,  are equally criminals through their hypocrisy, inaction, defeatism and cowardliness, for allowing a bunch of racist, marauders-occupiers to occupy, dispossess,  and oppress those who were supposed to be their brethren.

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By ardee, August 20, 2010 at 2:59 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind, August 19 at 8:59 pm

One of your best efforts to date…Bravo!

walterbard, August 19 at 8:29 am

I see now that you are a writer of fiction, sorry for the misconception. Here I was assuming your reasoning faulty and your logic partisan beyond acceptable limits. Sorry for the error, in future I will laud you for your talents as a writer of fairy tales and not in any way a perceptive political or historical analyst….

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By ofersince72, August 20, 2010 at 2:30 am Link to this comment

We mosquedebating,  the whole country.

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drbhelthi's avatar

By drbhelthi, August 20, 2010 at 1:54 am Link to this comment

As far as the role of the current U.S. presidential
imposter in the world mess is concerned - -

The following article reveals the family history of
Barack Hussein Obama Barry Soeto, family employment
in the CIA from the time of his grandfathers, and
the source of his various names.

http://truthalliance.net/Archive/tabid/67/articleTyp
e/ArticleView/articleId/5892/Default.aspx

He is behaving as a good boy, and carrying out the
instructions of his various masters. As his mother,
father, stepfathers, and grandfathers did, before him.

What does this have to do with a moslem-church-
building in NYC? 

ONLY EVERYTHING. To include the USA destruction.

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By archivesDave, August 19, 2010 at 10:31 pm Link to this comment

Ofersince:
(I don’t know any of their names since I never have
watched Fox)
Aw cum-on Bro, bend down (over), just a bit…
a broken clock is Right twice a day but u gotta b
there at the Right time….have a little patience,
and watch out for those coco NUTS while in the back forty.

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By ofersince72, August 19, 2010 at 7:00 pm Link to this comment

Issues like this community center are of such

national importance,  we need a better way to solve

solve these issues.

Next,  we will use woman…..breast size.

Rachael ...against one of the FOX woman
(I don’t know any of their names since I never have
watched Fox)

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By ofersince72, August 19, 2010 at 6:56 pm Link to this comment

I am glad that I figured out…

We will have Glen Beck and Keith Olberman have

a penis contest.  Whose ever is bigger wins the

community center debate

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By Inherit The Wind, August 19, 2010 at 4:59 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie, August 19 at 3:18 pm Link to this comment

ITW—‘Sinbad’ may well be a troll or a pseudo, doing his best to make Arabs or Muslims look bad.
*******

Yeah, and if some a zionist pig, how come I not only have NO objections to this community center, I think it’s SHAMEFUL that it’s being opposed, and opposed with LIES! 
1) It’s not a mosque, it’s a community center like any Y or JCC that includes a mosque.
2) It’s not at Ground Zero, it’s two blocks away, near an existing mosque.
3) The people behind it are ANTI-violence and oppose the radical Jihadis.
4) They aren’t invading us to attack us—they are Americans who are legitimately and legally exercising their freedom of religion.

Unlike Arabian Sinbad, I DEEPLY believe in the Bill of Rights, especially when it’s difficult and unpleasant.  That’s when we need it most or we succumb to bigots like A-S, Palin, Gingrich, Giuliani and the ADL.

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By omop, August 19, 2010 at 12:34 pm Link to this comment

The proper and right thing to do is to take this so-called tolerance for “ground zero” right up to the US Supreme Court.

  Then and only then will the REAL USA be judged as to what it claims to be.

  All else is political shim-sham.

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By Justin Weleski, August 19, 2010 at 12:07 pm Link to this comment

(Continued from below)

All hope is lost, however, if we delude ourselves
into believing that snarky comments at a progressive
website will solve anything.  I may not know very
much, but I do know that Barack Obama and his closest
advisors don’t peruse the comment sections of
progressive websites and blogs each evening for
policy advice.  I also know that most of the people
we need to recruit have never heard of Truth Dig, and
rarely, if ever, venture into the liberal
blogosphere.

Organization can beat hate.  Organization, however,
is very difficult, time consuming, tedious,
potentially demoralizing, and slow.  But we need to
make a commitment to building the liberal/progressive
national organizational infrastructure.

Personally, I’m in the very early stages of making my
first major contribution.  I will provide more
details once the effort officially gets underway, but
I think it will be an important step toward action.

I hope we all begin to ask ourselves the following
question; “What can I do?”  At this critical juncture
in American and world history, we need action.  We
need passion.  We need every last ounce of energy and
courage we can muster because the alternative is
nothing short of widespread death, destruction, and
misery.

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By Justin Weleski, August 19, 2010 at 12:06 pm Link to this comment

Another observation: for all the lip service
Americans pay to the Constitution, a solid majority
has no principled interest in its tenets.  None at
all.  What they have is a self-serving interest.  If
the freedoms and benefits stemming from the
Constitution benefit them, their family, their
friends, or those who look, think, and act like them,
then they are to be vociferously defended.

If, however, the freedoms and benefits are to benefit
the ever-so-odious “other,” well, we may need to re-
think this here Constitution!  Hispanics, blacks,
Muslims, homosexuals; it doesn’t matter.  Their ideas
and objectives do not align with “Real America,” the
land of middle-age and elderly white men (and
sometimes women) whose conception of America blends
the best (and, I would argue, worst) aspects of a
Norman Rockwell painting, a John Wayne movie, and a
remedial, myopic, seventh-grade civics course
understanding of the Revolutionary War and our
Founding Fathers.

This “America” shall be defended until the bitter
end.  If the Constitution happens to get in the way…
that’s just a mere technicality.  After all, the
Founding Fathers, as all honest, God-fearing men
already know, fully endorse the middle-age and
elderly white male conception of America.  That is
exactly what they envisioned.  Thus, the “spirit of
the law” supersedes the “letter of the law.”

Or, to put it more simply; “My understanding of the
world trumps the rights and privileges enumerated in
the Constitution because the Founding Fathers agree
with me and because I am a real American.”

It’s a logical, rigorous, and compelling argument. 
“I’m right and you’re wrong, because I say so.”

Beliefs are tricky things.  Those who believe that
Muslims are sub-human monsters are not typically
flexible in this belief.  They are right.  Case
closed.  End of story.

I truly don’t know if we (liberals and progressives,
that is) can reach these folks.  Sure, we may reach
some, but the majority, I would assume, are deeply
set in their beliefs.  Facts be damned.

What we can do, however, is organize.  The fact of
the matter is that outspoken bigotry and nationalist
fervor are, for the most part, an old white man’s
sport.  It’s no coincidence that Newt Gingrich is the
face of the anti-“Ground Zero mosque” movement.  But
old white men are a shrinking demographic in relation
to youths, Hispanics, blacks, and minorities.  This
presents a unique opportunity to liberals and
progressives; the potential to unite these disparate
groups into an active, vocal, revolutionary movement.


Now, I don’t mean we should take up arms against
those in power, but that we should aim for the hearts
and minds of America.  That may sound like a
hopelessly naïve thing to say, but no revolution can
last if a majority (or significant majority) of the
people don’t support it.  Just look at Afghanistan. 
Hundreds of billions of dollars have poured into the
nation, yet the cause is hopeless because ordinary
Afghans simply don’t believe in the cause.  We
haven’t won their hearts and minds.  No amount of
guns or butter can do that.  Or, to paraphrase Saul
Alinsky; a revolutionary movement requires broad-
based support or else it will either collapse or
devolve into an authoritarian dictatorship.

In other words, we liberals and progressives must
convince the American public that what we are selling
is preferable to the bill of goods offered by
corporations, the military-industrial complex, and
the rabid nationalists.

I think it’s possible.  It will be one hell of a
fight given the sheer power and wealth of the
opposition, but I don’t think all hope is lost…

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By drbhelthi, August 19, 2010 at 11:19 am Link to this comment

Agreed on the following:
“I think it is really pretty urgent to resist
fascistic attacks on the Constitution by thugs
trying to exploit racism and religious intolerance
in order to gain political power.”
Certainly!
That is precisely where the U.S. now stagnates.

However.
Assuming that “most” = 51% = a majority, you will
have difficulty verifying that a majority of
Americans still believe that 9/11 was done by a
handful of Moslems who hijacked airplanes.
Factuality has even filtered down to thousands of
military personnel. Similar to the special hangar on
Wright-Patterson in the 1970s, when queried, they
talk the “party line,” as they don´t care to be
fired, court-martialed or assassinated.

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