Lafayett,

Debate Pt3

You say: -
“And if you wish to think the French worker is being exploited, consider that (according to OECD stats for 2009, the hourly earnings in manufacturing of a French worker were at an index of 112.7 (2005 = 100) and for an American worker at 111.8 ...”

It seems the French have managed to improve their earning per hour by a little more than the US manufacturing worker has but that says very little. I ask , are there a similar indices for bankers, CEO’s, sports stars etc? By what % have they increased? I stake my life on it that their earnings will have increased by a much bigger proportion than have the workers. Also you need to consider unemployment in the mix too.

Lafayette,

Debate Pt2

“The Socialist French government reduced the workweek to 35 hours in 2000, thus torpedoing its economic productivity.”

My reply:-

I’m not sure what you mean by economic productivity but I have a problem with the rise of the idea of labour productivity as a precious measure of economic achievement.

On the whole labour productivity increase is a function of the replacement of labour with capital and this may be a good thing (leaving aside the possibility that it may lead to increased production/consumption of goods in a planet that is clearing approaching limits in resources and sinks for our waste). But it can also be a bad thing if the benefits of productivity increases do not accrue to labour itself. This is clearly the case in the US where in spite of rising GDP in recent decades the incomes of the middle and lower classes have stagnated or fallen.

If I’ve been barking up the wrong tree in assuming you mean labour productivity let me know.

If you mean GDP or per capita GDP, in the former case if less hours per week translated to less hours in total rather than the sharing of available hours by more workers one would expect a fall GDP. If you meant the later, per capita GDP than I can’t see that there is necessarily a connection between that and a reduced working week. Also GDP as a measure of economic achievement is very questionable as it lumps together activities that create wealth with those that have no impact or destroy wealth, eg bombs and butter. Some measure of “well-being” would be a more desirable one, difficult as that is to define.

“The French government borrows 1.5 million Euros a month simply to sustain its retirement fund.”

Thanks for providing all that information on the French situation.

I think the point noted above is a worthy one. I honestly think that pensions should to a great extent be funded by the taxpayers (not individually but collectively) who will benefit from them when the time comes. So the debate on this point should be, I guess, whether tax rates should be raised to cover the shortfall, or the benefits reduced. But current income earners cannot be expected to provide for inflation and the reduced value of the currency when they retire since they have no control over that. The tax vs benefits options should be put to the people.

The number of hours Frenchmen work and the other points you note are a really a matter of how they value things like leisure vs stuff money buys and it seems to me that they have made different choices as a society than have Americans. (Not that many American scraping to exist on minimal wages have that much choice in the matter.)

I will think more on the matter later and respond if I have anything worthwhile to add.

kulu: The pros and cons of the proposed raising of the retirement age in France can be debated and I, myself am not sure whether it has merit or not (in the sense of improving the overall well being of the French now and in the future)

Be my guest, let’s debate them.

Start with these facts:
-  The Socialist French government reduced the workweek to 35 hours in 2000, thus torpedoing its economic productivity.
-  The French, with four-week vacations, work the least number of hours of any developed European nation. (1554 hours versus the OECD average of 1739, or 12% more.)
-  The French start their careers, after university, five years later than they do in the US (28 versus 23 years of age).
-  The French government borrows 1.5 million Euros a month simply to sustain its retirement fund.
-  That to continue the pension fund as it is would impose an increase in taxes; which would impact mostly the young whose Disposable Income would reduce and therefore their standard of living.
- And if you wish to think the French worker is being exploited, consider that (according to OECD stats for 2009, the hourly earnings in manufacturing of a French worker were at an index of 112.7 (2005 = 100) and for an American worker at 111.8 ...

Go ahead, tear apart the above arguments for increasing the French retirement age ...

I can only hope the French strikers will win and their activism will spread throughout Europe and so form a wedge with which we can pry open the broken system that has spread around the planet with America at its centre and countries like Australia, Canada and the UK clustering thereabouts.

The pros and cons of the proposed raising of the retirement age in France can be debated and I, myself am not sure whether it has merit or not (in the sense of improving the overall well being of the French now and in the future) but its thrusting upon the population by a regime that has nothing more to offer than the neo liberal vision of the future pursued by most Western governments should not be tolerated.

In Australia we had our retirement ages raised recently and there was hardly a murmur.

The health care workers in West Australia are busy striking against pathetic wage increase proposals by the state government of about (I think) 3% at a time when doctors and CEO’s of government authorities are being granted increases well in excess of 10%. And its not as if this sort of rising inequality has not been going on for decades in Australia and the rest of the world.

If those at the bottom of the ladder do not resist, who will?

We should all become Frenchmen at heart and fight back with everything we’ve got before we lose everything as we will if we sit back and shrug our shoulders as bit by bit the rights and welfare of our compatriots are eroded.

rh: I don’t think you “set” editorial policy

I know you don’t think that; it’s obvious that I do not set policy on this forum—I’m like any other commenter here.

My response was teasing, sort of ... don’t take my comments so literally. The facts, however, I will strive to articulate within the debates.

There’s too much bitching goin’ on. Pointing the finger of blame has never ever solved a problem. Blaming the Replicants for all our ills will not win elections.

Getting the vote out, having it orientated towards the right goals—that is what constitutes effective political dynamism.

I congratulate the French on the strikes, and the fact that they have “REAL BALLS”...they teach America, and Americans how it should be done!!! We need to start involving the Youth in America into our struggles because if any Republicunt coward was to target the kids, we’d have plenty of reasons to wipe them off the face of the planet. We can’t allow RepubliCorps. to brainwash America’s Youth, and we need to prevent these Republicunt terrorists from giving speaches at any educational institutions!!! Democracy doesn’t involve allowing terrorists to speak, or voice their opinions when it comes to the lives of others, especially the 90+% of Americans who are struggling just to live day-today, while rampant greed goes on in this country unchecked. We need to abolish salaries of over $1 Million/year…most couples don’t earn $1 Million in an entire lifetime of working!!! We need to start “citizen cells” to target those terrorists behind close doors masterminding America’s demise, and using terrorist $$$ through the U.S. Chamber of Commerce to rig elections in their favor!!! We have the technology we need to counter corporate media, and their lies. We need an American “Fight Club”, but the only people being beat to a pulp would be those who misinterpret the intentions of America’s forefathers, and attempt to brainwash the people into thinking that we have to accept what others want to offer us…we’re not sheep, we know what we want, and if we have to, we’ll take them out to get it!!!

LAFAYETTE: I don’t think you “set” editorial policy—I’ve just been wondering when an actual TRUTHDIG journalist would comment on the riots. I thought you were posting from France and was looking for first hand insight. (Sorry if I wasn’t clear.)Thanks!!

    Not to go too far afield, but I appreciate FAT FRED/WOTS/BOHDHI and others comments on actual labor (the reason for the riots). Opinions on economics abound here but we rarely speak of the act of labor itself.

    My personal experience of some American work environments was the equivalent of an open air madhouse. Emotional/social damage, theft, drug/alcohol addiction, spiteful emotional undertow, and rumor mills all in full play. Take the desperation of people working for a wage that will never allow them a life, paycheck-to-paycheck, add the manipulations of a vicious system of management and control, you have Hell on Earth.(How many work place murders and shootings do we hear about each year?) Now remove the educational and social support systems intended to provide dignity and civilized intelligence.

    30 hour work week? You bet!! A focused well managed system with actual financial reward and motivation would provide the equivalent of 50 hours hanging, hating and waiting to go home. And how about “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness—”? Every American deserves it and is willing to work for it. And wages and work environment should allow it.

    The fact is, an actual system of free enterprise backed by sane oversight/regulation and social support, does offer the best opportunity for individual growth and personal freedom. Other modern Nations have at the least cobbled a workable bare bones system together. And their people don’t want it @#$ked with.

    Everyone knows that the current American/World economic collapse is the result of thugs ripping the guts out of industry and regulation for personal profit with no regard to damage or consequence. The words “capitalist”, “socialist” or “communist” are just spin to confuse the dialogue. Communist China or Democratic America or Socialist England are just labels. A handfull of International thugs that represent finance, black market enterprise (drugs/documents/human trafficking/arms/money laundering/etc.) and private security mercs/MIC have merged and are attempting World domination. (How long has “secret” International money been entering American politics. Makes you look a Boehner in a whole new light doesn’t it.)

    The French are in the streets over mere mention of cuts in social systems. Vive la France!! The American Constitution and Bill of Rights are under seige and the Nation is being looted. Where are you at and how long can you keep pretending it isn’t happening?

ET: Will the French way be any more effective than the American way?

The “French Way” has brought them relative peace and prosperity since WW2, including the Social Safety Net that America talks often about—but the real consequence of which has been mere Mental Masturbation.

(If Uncle Sam wants to learn how to make love-politics, it needs some lessons from La Douce France. ;^)

Bodhidharma you have your thinking cap on while Mr. Pfaff is wearing his trusty, all purpose, conservative blinkers.

The condition of the Western world is indeed morbid. The underdogs are unleashing some fury in France, and who doesn’t love to root for the underdog?
Will the French way be any more effective than the American way? For now it’s a bit louder and more energetic. I confess I’d love to see a bit more thrashing about from the disaffected masses, but the military industrial arm of power is more powerful and sophisticated than ever before. Indeed, one needn’t even break the law to be locked up with the key thrown away in post 9-11 America. The oppressors and their armies are in full effect. To stray from compliance is to face the consequences and join the ever-growing prison population - which further feeds the coffers of the military state, leading to more law enforcement and more prisoners. This is the cycle.
It would appear a bit longer leash is being afforded rioters in France than in post 9/11 USA. Americans with open eyes have seen Democracy evaporate, and for many a good portion of their assets along with it. It will be interesting to see which way the masses turn - armed without votes, armed without knowledge, armed without power - but armed nevertheless.
Morbid.

Plus nul means more none, not dumber than that.
Why is it that the French should have to accept working like dogs for the wealthy, just because we Americans have been brainwashed into it?  The great promise of the industrial and technological revolutions was supposed to be more leisure time, not constant economic crisis.

Accepting the numbers provided by Lafayette for argument’s sake, one might
consider that a good part of the reason for the lower numbers in France is that
many in France agreed to a 30 hour work week in order to avoid the termination of
some of their fellow workers in these austere economic times. In any case, it’s the
efficiency of man hours that matter, not the total, which would completely explain
the Italian figure.

Pfaff’s argument, which, considering the comments herein, went completely par-
dessus la tête, is that the French are not out in the streets merely for a
disagreement over a proposed retirement age adjustment, or any other specific
entitlement Sarko has on his checklist. But rather, that unlike Americans, the
French have a better understanding that neoliberalism has run its course, and that
they are now demanding a new economic approach.

“Just where do they think the money is going to come from to pay their retirement?”

I don’t know Lafayette, but one can only assume this is a disingenuous question. Why should I assume they don’t have the funding already? After all, we have a large number of ideologically-minded rich people running around our country screaming that our retirement age needs to be raised right now and we don’t have any immediate funding problems.

dug: Sarkozy was a terrible leader, entering promising “reforms” which are just the opposite; he is by nature an enormously arrogant, manipulative and vindictive little man who is interested only in power, the perks of power, and more power (oh, and money for his “friends”).

Claptrap and ad hominem of the poorest quality.

He’s not my kinda guy either, but the above is just unsubstantiated slander. Unless you have proof of what you say, leave your bile elsewhere.

VIVE LA FRANCE!

rh: Where are you LAFAYETTE?.

I don’t set editorial content here, I just follow it. It’s about time someone here noted what is happening in France.

Because Americans can take note, not necessarily about what Pfaff has said – which is about the millionth time we’ve seen it written – but because of what the French are doing. They have gone down into the streets. They are not bitching-in-a-blog from the comfort of their homes.

Take a hint, America …

And it is the most important lesson we can learn from what the French are doing. Because the fact of the matter is that the Looney Left in France has made a mountain out of a mole hill.

Here’s why: The French work 1554 hours a year. (OECD stats., 2009) Americans work 1768 hrs. (+13.8 more); the Brits 1646 hrs. (+6.9%); the Italians (get this!) 1773 (+14%); the Japanese 1714 hrs. (+10.2%); the OECD (26 countries) 1739 (+12%).

Now what in heavens name is the reason for the French to be demonstrating against extending the retirement age from 60 to 62 years of age. Just where do they think the money is going to come from to pay their retirement?

Add to that idiocy the fact that the students are out as well. Now if the retirement age is not increased, and since it is always the younger generation that pays for the retirement that the older generation takes, then the younger generation will be obliged to pay higher taxes to support retirement pensions.

Meaning that they will have lower Disposable Income and therefore a lower standard of living. (And these are college students that are on the lines.)

Plus nul, tu meurt. (French for, Dumber than that, you die.)

And which is why Pfaff says little about the reasons for these demonstrations, because nobody in their right mind can understand the underlying motivations of the unions that have fomented them.

So the author endorses the view (which is also my opinion) that our current reversals and the current attacks by plutocrats stem from the fall of communism. 

With no threat of a good example (and the USSR was pretty lousy communism but apparently even lousy communism bets the hell out of ideal conditions capitalism) the elites have decided to claw back all the concessions they felt frightened into giving up when they had ideological competition.

The French workers have been staging strikes & walk-outs at least since the immediate aftermath of WWII, even assuming we ignore the Revolution. 

Perhaps some extremely well-educated historian will be able to explain to me why it is necessary for the cognoscenti to ignore the simple, obvious explanations in favor of a strained, contrived theory.  I think it has a great deal to do with the fact that the “serious”  people have forgotten the difference between “money” & “value” or “worth”. 

I agree that it is the end of an era, and the French citizens are as aware of it as we are, however they have the strength & organization to mount what I hope will be effective protests.  I wish we could find the heart to do the same here. 

Americans, like the French, are much less concerned with money than they are with losing their dreams & hopes for themselves & their descendants.  Money is paper - value & worth are eternal. 

Well, as they say in Staten Island, Sesst la vy.

I’ve been wondering when a TRUTHDIG writer would address the riots in France. (Where are you LAFAYETTE?) I’m a little suprised that Senor Pfaff seemed to dismiss the motives of the protesters. It seems (to me) that the common ground between the French and Americans is anger at corrupt politicians allowing corporate/financial thugs to destroy the World economy at huge profit, and then place the burden of financial recovery on the victims. Where’s the American riots?

    The authors lament that American voters may cut off their noses to spite their faces is a spin I’ve heard/read often recently in our MSM. This may be true, but not for the reasons stated. Many here see no difference between the Dims and Rethugs, others feel the vote has no validity at all and many see salvation in an outright crash and burn of the entire system. Positive action seems hard in a moral vacuum and political/financial sanity has no purchase in the cash/graft driven political sideshow our Supreme Court created. The elections are close. VOTE!!

    There is solidarity in open protest. And if you remember, our forefathers carried a lot more than signs.

    HURRAH FOR THE FRENCH!!

WriterOnTheStorm is not completely convinced that French demonstrators have
gone “aux arms” solely as a backlash to neoliberal policies like deregulated
markets and globalization, but they are acting with intuitive knowledge of the
economic destruction those policies have wrought .

Most Americans by contrast, if they’ve even heard of neoliberalism, think of it as
some vague lefty conspiracy, unaware that the “liberal” in neoliberalism refers to
the liberation of money, not people.

At least the French, like the Greeks,  know that even if it’s someone else’s house
on fire, those flames threaten everyone, eventually even those who live in stone
palaces.

The “Western economic system is not “unregulated”. There are plenty of regulations. The problem is, they are unenforced. See, there’s a difference. Now, this might be hard for liberal/progressives to comprehend, but when someone acts bad, you punish them, you do not make more rules. For new rules are meaningless, if the old rules are not enforced to begin with. Yes, all hail Elizabeth Warren and the Consumer Financial Protection Agency. What an act of genius. Pure genius, I tell you. The problem with liberals is, you have “thought” your way into a corner, and now, you don’t know how to get out. I’m not suggesting conservatives have any real answers, either.

The Austrian economists have been warning people about the evils of central banking and perpetual monetary inflation for decades. People on both sides say, “well how can the economy grow, if we don’t print more money”? Well, look at what economic growth through reckless inflation has gotten us. And the liberals say, “if we just regulate it, we can control it”. Well, look at where regulation has gotten us. Here’s a clue, a perpetual monetary inflationary system can not be properly regulated. The printed money always will go into the hands of the banks and the wealthy, first. Then, you and I will be left to deal with all of the price inflation. “But wages will rise to counter the price inflation”. Yes, but wage inflation always lags price inflation, so real wages can never keep up with real inflation. What more proof do you need?

So, what’s the answer? Put away your Samuelson textbooks, for starters, and stuff a rag in Pauly Krugnuts mouth. Then, put the control of the money back into the hands of the people. Take a good long look at how Andrew Jackson handled the Second Bank of the US. Sure, it was painful, but the country was better off, economically, in the long run.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/General_Jackson_Slaying_the_Many_Headed_Monster_crop.jpg

Yes, i do see that US structure of governance had been more successful than any
other in enserfing at least 80% of americans.

many people have noticed this long time ago. Hitler saw it and had been awed by
it.

As i see it, US structure of governance includes media, schooling,
cia/fbi/army/police, jurisprudence, congress, WH.
Each of these aspects of one reality has an unique task to perform.

Balloting being least important structural member; amounting to which of the two
liars or nicer looking person gets elected. tnx for ur Left, Right, Wrong ear or the
Finger!

“It is not pension claims that are driving the current political uproar.”
“The demonstrations are obvious nonsense in terms of what they are supposed to be about—early pensions, secure working lives, abundance for all.”
Huh?!!
I think you’re full of it. I think they are definitely in an uproar about raising the retirement age, because they know doing so will harm them. Explain why it is “obvious nonsense.” They are demonstrating because they’re bored? I think not.
It seems to me this writer is all over the place. He concludes with his disdain for unregulated capitalism, but seems to criticize the French when they demonstrate against it. I think he’s afraid of those that take it to the streets.