No not a different species. That is the first leg of deciding who is human and who isn’t then the separation and down grading and finally the killing comes last. Don’t go down that road. Its an ugly one.

By JDmysticDJ, July 11 at 6:09 am

“We are diametrically opposed in our philosophical thinking, and it is almost as though you are of one species, and I am of another”
———————————
Yes, that is true, absolutely.

Well put JDmysticDJ.

DaveZx3

This thread is interesting and thought provoking, but it is also dead. I have no interest in continuing this debate here as I am certain that there is nothing to be gained here.

I dashed off a 3000 word reply to your arguments which would require five or more separate postings; massive overkill which would indicate obsession on my part. To say that I am obsessed with the core issue under discussion here would not be a false statement. In order to post this huge dialectic I would have to spend additional time editing and expanding my arguments, but I know with certainty that doing so would be to no avail, so I’ll focus my obsession elsewhere.

At the core of my argument is my belief that the long history of man’s cruelty throughout history has been a conflict between Left and Right, progressive thought as opposed to reactionary thought, enlightened perceptions of spirituality verses fundamentalist perceptions of spirituality, and according to my analysis you are the voice of reactionary thought here.

Your attempt to portray yourself as a moral person and a rationale thinker here is clear, but I can only see you as an irrational apologist for evil, and as a pseudo-intellect. Your contention that U.S. and Western policies are only natural and not to be condemned is according to my perspective a biased attempt by you to justify the unjustifiable. Evil is evil and it can not be justified by arguing that evil is natural. Such a rationale is the rationale of fascists.

We are diametrically opposed in our philosophical thinking, and it is almost as though you are of one species, and I am of another.

Citing individual acts of atrocity must elicit an emotional response from decent human beings.  According to my perspective, it’s most decent to seek the end of such atrocities, and less decent to see these atrocities as regrettable, but necessary, or excusable. Citing these individual acts of atrocity should be definitive and undeniable evidence that the cruelty must end, but they are not to you and your ilk. As instructive as these individual acts of atrocity should be; they tend to shift the focus away from the magnitude of atrocity.  Accountings of these acts of atrocity pass through the news cycle, soon forgotten, but frequent in their occurrence. The big picture tabulates the millions of atrocities, injustices, and human sufferings that should resound throughout humanity, or even the cosmos and the metaphysical realm, but they are suppressed by defective human rationales; rationales of political, cultural, and religious hegemony.

Philosophers, and all those who are observers of man’s behavior, historic and current, focus on the incidences of human cruelty to illustrate, to inform, and to reinforce dialectic, but these examples of institutionalized cruelty are in fact anomalous to human existence, these institutionalized acts of human cruelty must be seen as deviances from human nature, and not the result of human nature. Any other perspective only serves to justify and excuse institutionalized atrocity, and the consequences of such.

Atheists who ridicule concepts of the divine, seemingly cogent in their observations, point out that if the divine exists, it must be a cruel divinity: Death, pain, sorrow, cruelty, etc., all can not be the manifestations of an omnipotent, beneficent, Devine. All those who put their faith in a metaphysical Devine must be challenged by catastrophic natural disasters, or the death of an innocent child, Christian philosophers attribute such realities to human sin, the wrath of an angry God, or perhaps as unavoidable necessities to eradicate sin, such thinking is unfathomable to the rational human mind, but eliminating human cruelty is merely an issue of philosophy; a philosophy obstructed by rationales of an innate/inherent cruel human nature.

Sounds like a Unitarian-Universalist. One of the few that I have no problem with, along with Deists and a few others. However it always comes down to the person, not the belief. The belief can be a guide, and the reasoning or rationalizing factor in how they act. Even so very few people would kill their children for being disrespectful even though the Bible tells them so. The same with working on the Sabbath. Such people would be considered not only fanatics but criminal and maybe insane. But it is there, just most reasonable liberal people choose to ignore for obvious reasons.

As for looking for contradictions one will find them whether they are there or not is illogical unless they actually do exist in the first place. So your reasons for that are without merit. And considering our whole culture promotes the Bible as the unassaiable word of god puts it in a positive spin to begin with. It’s much easier to ignore what is there than to create things that aren’t there. One can ignore the contradictions more easily by selective reading than actually reading the material with a clear open and analytical mind to note such contradictions as they present themselves with close scrutiny.

Night-Gaunt,

The Bible is mostly for beginners.  It is a book of concision.  It separates those who read it by their intent.  It is both total delusion and literal truth at the same time.  It is a book of letters, which cannot be comprehended by its letters. 

Those who read it to find contradictions, find contradictions.  Those who read it to find absurdity, find absurdity.  Those who read it out of hate, receive hate.  Those who read it to find truth, find truth.  Those who read it in the spirit of Love, receive Love.  I read it for strength and courage, and it delivers every time. 

It was written in that book somewhere, that these mysteries are understood “not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” 

As most ideologists in their infantile state have the desire to proselytize endlessly, and that includes the godly as well as the godless, over zealous Christians do tend to bother people.

But as they mature in their understanding, they recede into the background to become part of that huge mass of invisible beings who are content to let the Spirit do the heavy lifting, and they merely pray their input into the process.

Kind of like voting in a democracy.  You vote, and then the elected takes over and does the work.  You don’t vote and then go in and do all his work for him. 

So, in answer to your question, “how do we find them?”  You don’t, and you probably won’t.  They are not there for your benefit.  You don’t need them, you have direct access. 

Though real Christians are fun to hang around with, because they are not all jittery, nervous and in despair like most of the worlds’s population.  They might not have much junk, and might appear poor, but it doesn’t seem to bother them.

They are not out there struggling, because they have nothing to accomplish, other than bringing the “Good News” which has been broadcast around the world for decades.  Which is not for the purpose of conversion, but for the purpose of, “don’t say I didn’t tell you”.

The quickest way to spot a false religionist, is that they have some “burden” that they have to accomplish.  They scream at me when I say that, but it is true. 

The sons of an ultra wealthy dirt contractor do not move a mountain with their personal physical strength and a couple of wheelbarrows, when their father owns a fleet of gigantic bulldozers.  They are not that dumb, so they ask politely of their father if he will have his bulldozer crews move the mountain.  And if the mountain is in need of removal, the father takes care of it. 

But of course, a lot of people like to pretend they are sons of the contractor, and steal the bulldozers and run around moving mountains whenever and wherever they want.  In my maturity, I can easily tell the difference, but I don’t have to get all bent out of shape about it. 

It is not special to learn something before somebody else.  Everyone learns according to when they are scheduled to learn, and in the end, all understand.  There is no benefit at the age of 50 for having learned the alphabet two months ahead of your class. 

I tell my Muslim and Jewish friends that Jesus, Jehovah, Allah, Yahweh are one and the same spirit.  There should be no division amongst His people.  And there is no division amongst His people.  The division is amongst those who steal the bulldozers.  And those are the ones that the world sees, and those are the ones that the world judges.

The problem with your answer is how do we find these “real Christians?” Since the Bible is replete with contradictions that support the Dominionists as much as all the other fractious variations of Christianity. Because the Bible is a mixture of books that became chapters. And not all of them agree so anyone reading it can find at least two whole versions of “Christianity” in them. Hence yours and our problem today. Also I would prefer all the religions to decide which is the “real” one among themselves, then start bothering the rest of us. Get your act together first!

Now there are plenty of Christians I can deal with. Just so long as they don’t want to interfere in our gov’t to make their version of marriage and music and woman’s rights restricted as they are busy doing in various states of our Union.

re: By Night-Gaunt, July 8 at 1:20 pm

I agree with everything that you said.  Where you and I disagree is that you believe the “theys” that you speak of are comprised of Christians, and I say that those people have hijacked Christianity for the purposes of neutralizing it. 

You have heard me say that real Christians are what real Christians do, and that is to follow the teaching of Jesus Christ.  Do these “theys” love their enemy?  Do they do good to those who persecute and revile them?  Do they take care of the orphans and the widows? 

The answer is no to all these and more.  So, I say that Jesus Christ considers these (theys) to be the enemy, just as you consider them to be the enemy and I consider them to be the enemy.

It is really too bad that Americans, and the rest of the world, cannot really see that they do have a common enemy who plays us against each other for their own purposes.  I think 98% of us are just deceived, and about 2% are not.

By JDmysticDJ, July 7 at 1:48 pm

“now do me the favor of answering these questions, “How do you account for the variances in man’s behavior as it pertains to cruelty,”? But more specifically, “How do you account for a change in attitude toward cruel behavior, is such a change not the result of nurturing, and shouldn’t man be nurtured away from believing that cruelty is natural”?
—————————————————————————-

Other than you still think me to be infantile in my thinking, I found your post to be very well done.

In fact, I am in agreement with almost all of it.  I will answer your questions, and hopefully show where I do not agree.

Regarding variances in man’s behavior, I agree with you that man’s behavior cannot be explained only by physical brain activity. 

Man has a spiritual component, IMO.  I say spiritual, but you could say he has a conscience or mind which separates and elevates his reasoning capacities from that of the beasts.  I agree that it cannot be explained scientifically, at least not yet, so it remains metaphysical to some extent.

But when I talk about the natural man, I am talking about the individual who suppresses his conscience or spirit and follows only his natural instincts, rightly or wrongly.  So the extent to which a man allows his conscience to guide him explains the variances in human behavior/cruelty.  He can succumb to the influences of his nature or the influences of his conscience or spirit. 

We differ in that you want to call it nurture, so as to keep it somewhat in the natural realm, as a function of man.  But I say it has a supernatural origin and no natural parallel.  We finally taught men the world is round, why haven’t we been able to teach them that war is unacceptable and stupid? 

Regarding judgements:  In a court of law, is it proper or legal to judge men based on metaphysics?  I don’t think that would fly.  If we can’t find our basis for right and wrong in nature, and we are not allowed to find it in the supernatural, then what is the basis for judgements of right and wrong? Culture?

I’m not going to try and argue that I have a natural right to murder someone, as that is absurd.  But I might try to argue that I have a right to keep every penny that I earn, and you have no right to that money for the purposes of carrying out your ideas of fairness.

Regarding your question about nurturing away from cruelty, I say no problem.  Do it.  But remember, cruelty is itself a metaphysical concept, existing in the mind of man only, having no parallel in the natural world.  So, in a totally secular world, where does the basis come from to judge or define cruelty? 

A good summary would be this:  if you are going to judge me according to your ideas of right and wrong, at least explain to me where you got your ideas of right and wrong, and why yours are more valid than mine.

But just so you don’t continue to think I am a total nut job, let me say that I have learned that arguing for a theory in its extreme is sometimes a powerful way of showing the absurdities of it. 

I don’t believe men are animals, nor that they should act like animals.  But I observe that they do continuously act like animals, and that is why we have $4 trillion dollar wars, among other things.

Also, I don’t believe it is infantile, boring or useless to discuss the motivations of men.  I am sorry to hear that you do.

DaveZx3 the one freedom no one should want or should have is to give up that freedom. But there are those that connive and fool and force those to do it. The oligarchs here are working toward that area. Till at one point in the not too distant future they will offer their claw to us to save us from the economic disaster they have orchestrated for us to experience. (They expect to be able to weather it in order to give us a choice on their terms. Join them in their dictatorship and you will have order and a version of the USA with electricity and running water. Only no Bill of Rights. Most would take that over neo-barbarianism as the alternative.)

Such is what I surmise their ultimate plan to be at least for this country as a power base for them. They already have the military for it.

Give it ten minutes… and you will see.

Dave, take a listen to this perspective.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6526777574574871930

JD,  Great post.  I am pressed for time right now, but will get back to your questions tomorrow.

Napolean DHP, sign me up.

DaveZx3, the banksters are already repossessing nations ( and have, or do you think Amerika is really free? )

Greece is the recent and most obvious example.

If anyone knows, when the Amerika began running deficits to fund government and projects, THAT was a clear sign that communism had arrived. 

President Jackson killed the central bank in his time ( and had four attempts on his life ), but the central bank again found its way in… and the final time was 1913.

The money / debt can easily be forgiven, but again, that would mean loss of control and tribute to the satanic leadership of the world; the hegemony. 

Also, realize we live in a pagan country ( and world ) which functions on the Babylonian System of buying and selling ( the market ). 

There is a worm hole of information one must look at to understand these things… I am trying to come up with a seminar which would best explain our present reality and streamline the facts and evidence.

RE: DaveZx3, July 7 at 8:45 am

What you wish is to engage me in debate devoid of metaphysical considerations. It’s your belief that such a debate will leave me without argument, but you are wrong. I will avoid the metaphysical and offer rational arguments regarding the nature of man.

Man is an animal atypical of the animal kingdom. Man’s nature includes attributes not available to the animal kingdom, and those attributes are far more astoundingly profound than the mere possession of opposable thumbs. Man’s nature includes higher reasoning and complex thought processes, including the intricacies of philosophical thought which, based on our best understanding and observations is not only not typical, but non-existent in the animal kingdom. In order for you to assert otherwise, it will be you who is delving into the realm of the metaphysical.

Man has survived through the many eons, as have other species, but only man has risen to an unassailable position so supreme that it is unexplainable by those who rely on Darwinian theories of evolution. Contrary to what behavioral scientists believe, and have been unable to prove, man’s behavior is not governed by innate genetics, or inherent instincts. What science has observed is that physiology creates a disposition towards certain very basic elementary modes of behavior that might influence avocation or occupation, but even studies that support such theories lack the significance necessary to be accepted as fact. In anything other than the most basic of physiological characteristics, such as height, physique, gender etc. the more complex behaviors can not be proven to be a result of physiology. Science can not prove that aspects of physiology are not the result of environment and nurture e.g. non-maternal female monkeys lactating in order to facilitate the nurturing of unrelated infants, and parrot fish changing gender and gender roles in accordance with environmental necessities. Scientists, who discover brain anomalies corresponding to certain behaviors, can not attribute those behaviors to brain anomalies, when in fact those brain anomalies may be a result of behavior and not vise a versa. Scientists can examine physiology to determine the pre-disposition to disease, but science can not predict complex behaviors based on physiology in spite of claims to the contrary. Identical twins, with identical genetic make-ups, separated at birth, demonstrate different behaviors and different proclivities. The very questionable science of behavioral psychology is marked by differing theories. At the present time the one point of general agreement is that both nature and nurture determine behavior, with some behavioral scientists giving more weight to nature, and others giving more weight to nurture.

We human beings, being the extraordinary exceptional beings that we are, are not governed by animal instincts; we have the ability to make complex choices regarding behavior. Your contention is that nature is cruel, and therefore man has a pre-disposition to cruelty. My contention is that man’s nature is not cruel, and that man’s cruelty is more a result of nurture than nature.

You have asked me questions requiring a tedious, and I’m sure, quite boring response from me, all such discussions of theoretical science bore me, and I consider such discussions worthless metaphysics because of their lack of empirical resolutions, but I do not consider all aspects of metaphysics boring, quite the contrary. I frequently ask, “What is the origin of the first bit of matter,” a question that intrigues me because it is concerned with the essence of existence. The answer of course is metaphysical, and the question is useless except in one respect, it suggests the impossibility of existence according to physics, or, to me, more profoundly, such a question pertains to concepts seemingly impossible, but I digress.

(Cont. below)

#2

If man behaves like a beast, it is because he has chosen to behave like a beast. A human being can be nurtured away from beastly behavior, whether such nurturing is the result philosophical interaction with others, or because of independent philosophical study.

Yes I am adamantly and vociferously opposed to nurturing man towards believing that man has no control over beastly behavior because of his nature, and yes, I have contempt for those who do so.

I have answered your questions, which I consider to be philosophically infantile, now do me the favor of answering these questions, “How do you account for the variances in man’s behavior as it pertains to cruelty,”? But more specifically, “How do you account for a change in attitude toward cruel behavior, is such a change not the result of nurturing, and shouldn’t man be nurtured away from believing that cruelty is natural”?

If you have bothered to contemplate what I have written here, perhaps you will understand why I have referred to you as a person possessing a tiny intellect. I believe, that your intellect is in need of expansion on this issue of man’s lack of culpability; both in his practice of cruel behavior in all its subtleties and extreme barbarities, and for his excuses for cruel behavior.

I have no tolerance for the cruelest of behaviors, even if those cruel behaviors were to be directed at those I detest because of their cruel behavior. Perhaps I need to be nurtured away from vehemence, but my vehemence is a result of philosophy not because of nature. I choose to be vehement in spite of my best inclinations, and I choose to be so out of necessity. Attacking ones beliefs with the possibility of bruising one’s ego or violating one’s distorted sensitivities lacks significance to me when mangled bodies are the issue under consideration.

Re: Napolean DoneHisPart, July 7 at 10:20 am

Yeah, I know about fractional reserve lending.  And in that case, I would have to admit you have a point that debt is created from nothing. 

But fiat money itself is created from nothing, so the idea is that you pay off your fake debt with your fake money to purchase your useless junk, which is also probably fake.  It’s all fake. 

Only very wealthy people get to actually own anything of real value.  The rest of us have mortgages and car payments, which are probably underwater. 

That’s why I like the “Lord’s Prayer”, the version which goes, “....and forgive us our debt as we forgive our debtors”  Other versions say “trespasses” instead of “debt”, and the powers that be go out of their way never to say the “debt” version, but I know that the original intent was to forgive all debt.

When all the debt goes bad, that is when the World Bank and IMF will go around and repossess entire nations.  That is the mechanism which will usher in the ultimate globalization scheme, NWO.  Debt is bondage, and you will eventually be owned, totally by your creditors. 

I think that is why politicians need to create such huge amounts of debt.  They are all in on the scheme.  And I guess that is why they had to come up with fractional reserve lending.

DaveZx3, I am not selling that idea, I am simply stating facts.

Look up Fractional Reserve Lending.

Look at this site I authored and put some of these realities together so people may learn, know and understand:

http://SmartPeopleSmartMoney.com

Re:  Napolean DoneHisPart, July 7 at 8:20 am
—————-

I don’t totally buy into your idea that debt is created out of nothing.  There is more to it than that in many cases.  If I lend you 10K so you can get a car to go to work, even if I am not expecting usury, I do expect the principal to be repaid.  I might need it to make my own car payments. 

I don’t see a big problem with a small amount of interest being charge for legitimate loans.  Not necessary, but not wholly evil either.  (not that I buy into the idea of good and evil, necessarily, if you know what I mean?)

What is evil is that the banks have created this system where we all are made to think we need a house ten times larger than what we really do need.  And the only way to buy it is with a 30 year mortgage.

Secondary to that is the perverted idea that young people need to take out huge student loans so that they can start their careers tens, if not hundreds of thousand of dollars in debt.  Just to be told there are no jobs available.

In life, people take advantage of other people to satisfy their own selfish needs.  As I have been unpopularly posting, I think that is the nature of man.  It is like he can’t escape it.

We complain about the ultra rich abusing, but that is only because they do it on a larger scale.  In reality, abuses are all the way up and down the line, rich to poor, just maybe not as self-evident.  It is the character of man, IMO.  I just have developed that opinion over the years.  Nothing personal, nor worth getting all hyped up over like JDmysticDJ.  It is an opinion borne of intense observation.

I really think that it would be best if everyone had this mind set, if they don’t already, that everyone is out to screw them.  Not as though they have to overreact as though we are all a bunch of criminals, but just recognize that man is not of perfect character.  He has a selfish streak which causes him to do selfish things which he should know better than to do.

But don’t get me started on this system of paper (fiat) money.  It is my opinion that fiat is the system which allows money to be manipulated, like the three cups and the pea.  What cup is it under?  Whoops, it’s not there anymore. 

Much, much harder to do that with something which does not exist solely in digital form and/or paper promises.  The rich hire smart people to help them get as much money as possible, but there is no sense helping them by having a system of fake money which disappears on a mouse click. 

If you want to help the poor, quit giving them food stamps, and give them something real, like a house, if they can demonstrate that they can maintain it.

re: JDmysticDJ, July 7 at 7:44 am
—————————————-

Perhaps you missed the part where I said,

“I am not advocating that he (man) not aspire to a higher calling, but I am reluctant to say it is pure evil that makes man do the natural things that he does.  (man is not so much evil as natural)

Cut man some slack, and cut the USA some slack. 
The approach should be love, caring and an understanding of the forces that make people fall to their basic instincts, and not be able to do the “right” thing when threatened. 

Man is what man is, and we can know what he is by looking at history.  (this is observation)

It does no good to constantly criticize without any real constructive advice as to how to overcome these instincts.”
———————————————————————

My statements above from my last post are not nihilism, nor advocating the belief in social darwinism, but the statements are really just constructive criticism.

When I declare what I see by observation, it does not mean that I am advocating or supporting what I see. 

Some have an inability to separate a person from his stated observations.  It is as though—if a person sees something, he becomes the fault of it. 

You blame me for what I observe.  If you observe something else, fine, state it.  But everyone’s experiences are different.  Everyone does not observe the same thing, nor perceive the same opinions from observations. 

Basically all I have said is that I see intense cruelty in nature, and I see that man is a natural being.  I put two and two together and conclude that man is not totally at fault for acting like the beast.  It is in his genes to be self-serving.  It is what nature is all about, strengthening the gene pool by eradication of the weak.  Nature is what nature does. 

This is an observation, darwinian perhaps, though I am not at all a darwinist.  (Ask Night Gaunt about that).  But what in the above paragraph makes you so irate?  What do you find at fault with it?  I ask that sincerely.  Give up your attacking mode, and just state what it is that makes you believe the above paragraph does not have a legitimate chance of being absolutely true, social darwinism or not?

Yeap, you stated what I meant, DaveZx3.

Let’s just remember the debt is created out of nothing, there is no real ‘money’ in circulation, only debt instruments / notes…. a contract is that piece of paper we pass on to one another.

With that reality stated, that debt can easily be cancelled without much ado about nothing.

But if all that debt were cancelled, then the hegemony would cease to receive their tribute ( interest on that debt ) and the people would be free!  All else is pure smokescreen and mirrors and propaganda infiltrating the mind.

By Napolean DoneHisPart, July 7 at 7:06 am

My last post was in response to the above.  Sorry for not stating that.

If you define “use and abuse” as “self-serving”, then it makes America a nation, “of the abuser, by abuser, and for the abuser”

The system is the sole property of the multitude of abusers (and the self-described non-abusers).  Not the other way around.  The system does not own the people. 

Freedom includes the freedom to give away your freedom. 

Americans gave in to their natural selfish inclinations and turned a grand experiment in self-governance into a chaotic nation of self-servers, where some win and some lose, but at least it is conforming to the laws of nature: order into chaos, survival of the fittest, every man for himself, etc.

America and Americans are no more exceptional than than any other dominant civilization.  The downfall was totally expected, if not aided by those who wish to set up their own selfish system.

RE: DaveZx3, July 7 at 2:21

Further philosophical debate with you will draw you out and further expose you as who you are philosophically. You are a Social Darwinist and you possess the mentality of a fascist. As the debate proceeds you’re bunker mentality will force you to embrace nihilism. The philosophy you espouse is, in fact, the prominent philosophy practiced by our current leaders, but it is couched behind a mask of idealism. If this philosophy continues to be the prominent philosophy the potential for mankind’s survival will be diminished and the survival that might survive will be fraught with: even greater human suffering, mayhem, the most profound inhuman folly, and mankind will fall prey to this unfitting, and unfit philosophy; so much for survival of the fittest.

Night Gaunt gives you the facts of life regarding U.S. militarism, but I feel confident in believing that you consider these facts to be virtue and not vice. You’re intellect is tiny, so tiny it’s not worthy of being given any credibility by greater intellects.

I do not consider myself a prophet, prophesying doom, I consider myself to be a realist and an opponent of destructive philosophical thinking that will only perpetuate folly and a dreary and brutal existence. If I were to take on the mantle of prophet, I would prophesy the slow and painful demise of Empire; a demise fraught with human suffering and brutality, but I would not rule out even greater catastrophe.

“Turn around, go back down, back the way you came,
terror is on every side, lo our leaders are dismayed.

For those who put their faith in fire, their faith in fire shall be repaid.
Oh God Pride of Man, broken in the dust again.

“Turn around, go back down, back the way you came,
And shout a warning unto the Nation that the sword of God is raised.
Babylon that mighty city, rich in treasures, wide in fame,
Oh God, Pride of Man, broken in the dust again.

The meek shall cause your towers to fall, make a new pyre of flame,
Oh you who dwell on many waters, rich in treasures, wide in fame.
You bow unto your God of gold; your pride of might shall be your shame.”

Please forgive the melodrama, and hyperbole, but I must say, to me, you bare some resemblance to a sleazy little pimp for a for an ugly Babylonian whore.

When the Amerikan system is used and abused from the wealthiest to the poorest person, used as it can to the benefit of the user and to the detriment of the ‘system’ or its supporters… what does that make Amerika?

What is ‘that’ called?

The idea that the USA is the primary evil-doer on the world stage currently is a good subject for debate, but not now.  USA does do a lot of the things you say, but it is all relative.  The people of the USA, for the most part, believe we are invited in to those areas to further freedom and democracy amongst the people.  It is all perceptions and beliefs, which are fickle at best.  And who can untagle the mess?

But what I have been commenting on in relation to this article about war, that one power or another over the eons has always had the role of world dominator.  It did not start with the USA.  It is like the Alpha male in a wolf pack, you fight all contenders to be the dominator.  Even in the plant world, we see plants attempt to dominate all that they can. 

I say that the natural inclination is to dominate where one can.  And I further say, that this is not evil, but perfectly natural and a function of “survival of the fittest”. 

If man is above it all, then what is it in him which makes him think he should be?  I am not advocating that he not aspire to a higher calling, but I am reluctant to say it is pure evil that makes man do the natural things that he does. 

Cut man some slack, and cut the USA some slack. 
The approach should be love, caring and understanding of the forces that make people fall to their instincts, and not be able to do the “right” thing when threatened.  Man is what man is, and we can know what he is by looking at history. 

It does not good to constantly criticize without any real constructive advice as to how to overcome these instincts.

The USA isn’t behind all evil, (who says that?), but being a hyper power and involved in several unprovoked wars and military actions and having over 1,000 bases most of them overseas, the USA gov’t and its corporations have their hands bloody. What other country do you know DaveZx3 that can claim such military might and that anywhere on the earth is a possible threat to its hegemony and national security? That has the largest military on the planet and spends an average 10X the top 10 contenders for military spending? Field such a large mercenary army? We shouldn’t leave out economic means which also bring pain, suffering and death that the US has done too. Plenty of evil yes, just not all of it. Plenty of others have done their share of realpolitik on the world stage. It all must end now.

RE: DaveZx3, July 6 at 2:08 pm

You are the possessor of a tiny little intellect, and you seek to portray the product of this tiny little intellect as being wisdom. You, with your cynicism, seek to negate the better inclinations of mankind, and to promulgate the carnal instincts.

I’m not a Muslim, but I disagree in the strongest terms possible with what crazed Muslims do, but I have no sense of responsibility for what crazed Muslims do.

I am an American, a member of a democracy, and I do have a sense of responsibility for what crazed Americans do.

“Now you can join the ranks of the illustrious
In history’s great dark hall of fame
All our greatest killers were industrious
At least the ones that we all know by name

But you can reach the top of your profession
If you become the leader of the land
For murder is the sport of the elected
And you don’t need to lift a finger of your hand

Because it’s murder by numbers, one, two, three
It’s as easy to learn as your ABC
Murder by numbers, one, two, three
It’s as easy to learn as your ABC-TV”

Don’t tally up the numbers, it might give you a sense of responsibility, but I seriously doubt it. I have restrained myself from writing my most sincere and vehement appraisal of you for the sake of my better human inclinations.

By JDmysticDJ, July 6 at 12:48

“I have believed, and continue to believe, that man’s nature is good, and that man’s evil is a deviance from what’s natural, a deviance that arises from weakness, and a lack of faith in man’s innate goodness. Those who think otherwise arouse my contempt, and history has shown the consequences of mankind’s yielding to such weakness.”
——————————————————————————-

And that is certainly a widely held belief, that man is inherently good, and that there are only a very few bad apples who screw everything up.  I believed more or less this same thing for many years.  More or less, in the fact that I believed that God created men good, but then man chose to do otherwise.

But I have done a lot of “thinking” on this subject, and I am now of the mind that man has a natural component, and a non-corporeal mind/spirit component.
The mind is increasingly being seen philosophically, if not scientifically, as a non-corporeal entity, separate and distinct from the mechanics of the processor brain.  But this is a very hotly debated topic itself, and no need to get into that now.

But regarding man’s purely natural side, even considering that there may be evolution at work, what is it that makes it impossible to believe that man is not just another animal?  Animals do not do right and wrong, they just do what animals do.  Do they kill?  YES.  Do they consider it wrong?  NO.  Do they kill to protect territory?  YES.  Do they kill to feed their family?  YES.  Do they kill in self defense?  YES.  Animals do not consider it evil to kill for these reasons.  They do not judge right and wrong.

The concept of right and wrong is a religious concept.  There is no evidence of right and wrong in the natural world. 

Now as someone who does understand that intelligence had to be behind what we see in nature, and that intelligence may have endowed man with an understanding of right and wrong, which is not of the natural.  Then I am willing to admit and understand the origin of right and wrong, as being something not of the natural.

But if humanity denies this origin of right and wrong, then where do they propose that it comes from?  When did man obtain it?  If in fact he ever did obtain it. 

Maybe it is all part of the myth, and everything is relative, including right and wrong, in which case, who are you to push your idea or belief of right and wrong on to me?  Because when you do, you are no better than the religionists.

You said that you, “have believed, and continue to believe, that man’s nature is good”  Then how do you explain when virtually a whole nation can become accomplices to genocide?  If good can be so easily perverted, then I think you have to open the door to the idea that it was not truly good to begin with.

I personally think man is basically evil, and does evil things continously.  I think the failure to rein in his evil is because the ego of man does not let him admit to his inherent evil.  He can get dressed up and act presentable, and fool even himself. 

But my contempt is also aroused, not by those who say man is evil, but by those who constanly push the idea that it is America and Americans who are behind all evil, which is not supported by real evidence.  The real evidence shows that evil is pretty well evenly distributed amongst all men.  And always has been. 

But, then again, evil does not really exist. does it? Everything is relative, and man cannot be anything but what he is.  He is what he is.  And we have thousands of years of documentation to prove it.

We as a species are only as good as our fellows. As only as good as the least of us. As only as good as the best* and worst* of us. We may rise or fall as a species but we are the ones who put ourselves in this predicament. And we will all pay. Even the uber-rich, though they may have to pay last and get a better deal than the 4 billion who are starting to pay now for their and our excesses. Infinite growth on a finite world = disaster. About the only thing we can control is how we live our lives on this planet. And too many in power especially in the rich countries see the earth as their play ground. The rest of us can lump it with the pollution, GHG’s, wars, slavery, food shortages etc. In the end we all contributed to it even if we were fooled or are disempowered by the elites who do not like our interference. We don’t have infinite time. And it moves in their favor since some of them know in harsh times authoritarianism grows.

*A subjective nomenclature to be sure.

I am unable to post part one of my post pertaining to the moron, I am unauthorized to perform the action… whatever. I am uncertain if my difficulty in posting part one is the result of bad Karma or some mysterious skullduggery.

RE: DaveZx3, July 6 at 11:05

Forgive me for attacking your tiny intellect. I don’t suppose that I have the ability to measure your intelligence, only the ability to evaluate what your intelligence offers. The 20th Century and now into the 21st Century has included dichotomies of thought and not just an all inclusive madness and carnality. The 20th Century and the beginning of the 21st Century have been marked by acts of carnality and also by acts of activism for peace and justice, equality etc. The fact that predators have been evident does not validate predatory thinking or support the contention that mankind is bound by a carnal nature; it only demonstrates that carnal thinking has been evident.

As to your question of why, forgive me for waxing philosophical but the answer to that question lies within us all. Suggesting that we are bound by carnality and are unable to overcome this carnality, is an example of tiny intellectual thinking, and has the effect of discouraging higher thinking, clearly some have overcome this seeming propensity for carnality, man’s natural carnality is an intellectual concept I dispute. I have believed, and continue to believe, that man’s nature is good, and that man’s evil is a deviance from what’s natural, a deviance that arises from weakness, and a lack of faith in man’s innate goodness. Those who think otherwise arouse my contempt, and history has shown the consequences of mankind’s yielding to such weakness.

Please note that I am not making war on you or killing your loved ones, I am only attacking your, hopefully temporary, tiny intellectual thinking.

Oh, I forgot to mention my summary point again, so I will do it now.

“America is not the cause of the deficient character of man.”

By JDmysticDJ, July 6 at 7:31 am

You make my point exactly.  When confronted with questions, and that is all my post was, was a basic question, “What is it in man?”, you attack the person.  Not the idea, or the question—you attack the person. 

I think someone with better reading comprehension could see that I am not a proponent of man’s carnal instincts.  The basic question I have asked is why, after thousands of years, does man retain these carnal instincts?  After reviewing all of the atrocities of the 20th century, I concluded that man has not progressed at all, and I am asking why?  I am asking why does anyone expect man to not act the way he acts, since it has been in his nature forever, apparently. 

It is a pertinent philosophical question, not borne of superior intellect, as you try to say, but not deserving of the absolute scorn you heaped on top of me for asking it. 

If you have no desire or ability to comment on why man does not become more humane with time, then don’t comment.  But viciously attacking the questioner is pretty much exactly what I am talking about.  Attack first, anything that threatens you or your paradigm.  It is the stuff wars are made out of, and it lives right in your head. 

Why don’t you just ‘fess up.  I hit a real nerve, didn’t I?  The progessive movement has no way to explain why man does not progress, except in his ability to make “stuff”, and dress himself up a little better. 

That is not a profound statement, that is a simple observation.  Intelligent men would see it as such, and respond with intelligent philosophical answers, not tear apart the questioner.

#2

I believe there is a concerted and well coordinated effort from the Right to propagandize the American people into believing that austerity for the many, and prosperity for the few, is the only option available to us, in spite of the fact that most respected economists and non-partisan government agencies say that Republican proposals will shrink the economy, cause the loss of 100’s of thousands of jobs, and that these proposals are not the best methods to shrink the deficit, and the debt.

EXPLODED! Duck and cover, run for your lives, head for the 19th Century. What has exploded i.e. expanded is the wealth of very few Americans. What has exploded, in the destructive sense, is our economy, thanks to right – wing economic policies, and the Right demands that these policies be continued, nay, not continued, but “explode” in the expansive sense.

Not being a big supporter of Al Gore, or the Clinton administration, I will never the less point out that, “Gore had a particular interest in reducing “waste, fraud, and abuse in the federal government and advocated trimming the size of the bureaucracy and the number of regulations.”

The moron writes:
“Not until the George W. administration have we seen such rapid and extraordinary powers afforded the Office of President and beyond.”

I’m having a little trouble understanding the above comment from the moron; clearly the George W. administration “exploded the size and scope of government” in terms of expanding government spending on military actions and National Security directives. I find this comment puzzling because the moron has been a vociferous and adamant defender of Bush policies foreign and domestic. Is he admitting that Bush policies were errant, at long last, or is this comment only offered to serve his anti-progressive dialectic. Is the moron now classifying Bush as a progressive? Incidentally, the designation of Military Industrial Complex, was “so called” by that flaming progressive Dwight Eisenhower, sometimes referred to as “Ike the Kike” by those most adamantly opposed to progressive policies. Eisenhower the flaming progressive said at a time when the top marginal income tax rate was 91%, ““We cannot afford to reduce taxes, reduce income, until we have in sight a program of expenditure that shows that the factors of income and outgo will be balanced.”

The moron drivels on by writing:

With recent discussions of shadowy Neo-Cons and the Constitutional Crisis’ in America, today, under Commander in Chief Obama, one only need be “suspect” to get a Hellfire up one’s azz.  Both the Patriot Act and Domestic Intelligence has been greatly expanded and strengthened under a democratic House, Senate, and Hope and Change President.

Again the moron hit the mark with his designation of “Shadowy Neo-cons.”  I guess a moron is like a stopped clock. I am no fan of Obama, having called him a war criminal and whatnot, but this bold assertion by the moron is not accurate and unfathomable because these asserted actions by Obama are in complete agreement with the moron’s past utterances. Obama quite ineffectually ordered a reduction in the explosive power of Hellfire missiles so as to not go up the wrong azzes. In fact, the number of azzes penetrated did diminish on an incident by incident basis, but the incidences of this kind of perversion increased under Obama. Is the moron suggesting that these incidences of perversion would have decreased with a less progressive president, I think not. This progressive president did make a half azzed effort to end enhanced interrogations instigated by the progressive George W. and his crew of progressive madmen and women. [?]

(more)

#3

The moron drivels on:

“Hiroshima, Korea, Iran, Vietnam, Bay of Pigs, along with the creation of the FIS, CIA, NSA, and even the extraordinary powers of the (nuclear) Energy Dept..  Japanese internment to summary executions of German soldiers captured on American soil.  None of this even touches on examples like targeting civilians in Dresden.”

Is the moron now asserting that nuking Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and the fire bombing of Tokyo, were immoral and the exclusive policies of progressives? I’ll point out to the moron that criticisms of these horrific acts are exclusive to progressive thinkers. Is the moron accusing General MacArthur of being a crazed progressive who would have likely gotten us involved in a third world war? Is the moron asserting that the progressive JFK wanted to invade Cuba after the failed Bay of Pigs progressive initiative, but was restrained from this action by conservatives from the 19th Century? Ditto for Vietnam, if only Johnson had listened to right-wing ideologues, we could have avoided all that. What Truman envisioned for the CIA was not at all what the CIA has turned out to be. The CIA’s covert activities exploded in a negative sense, under the leadership of fruity Allen Dulles and his fruity brother John Foster, in the Eisenhower Administration. I’ll refrain from mentioning Mosedegh and Arbenz, these incidents are known to progressives but ignored by moronic reactionaries. Now, I’ll confess to ignorance of German Soldiers being executed on “American soil” Are you thinking of soil captured by American soldiers during the Second World War? Quit fiddling with the hands on your stopped clock. Those executions were of course carried out by progressives, right moron? Finally, the internment of Japanese was in fact criticized by progressive social groups, but these progressive groups were ignored because of war hysteria.

The moron would like us to drown in his drivel:

“What do these things have in common?  All rooted and created in the superior wits of Progressive minds.  Those who passionately insist, even today, that they know best.”

No moron, the commonality of all things you’ve mentioned are rooted and created in right-wing reactionary thinking, and these right – wing reactionaries, such as you, moronically insist that they know best, in spite of the indisputable evidence to the contrary.

As a final comment I’ll point out that only reactionary morons consider Obama to be a progressive, Obama’s perspective is Left/Center, only marginally progressive, and right – wing reactionary morons have succeeded in pushing him to the Center/Right.

I must now say of your political analysis; it’s not good.

That was enjoyable to read, JDmysticDJ.  Kudos!

RE: DaveZx3, July 5 at 9:19

You are the possessor of a tiny little intellect, and you seek to portray the product of this tiny little intellect as being wisdom. You, with your cynicism, seek to negate the better inclinations of mankind, and to promulgate the carnal instincts. You echo the argument of the moron Go Right Young Man and the words of Adolph Hitler who said, “I see no reason why man should not be just as cruel as nature.”

Contrary to the false equivalencies put forth by some here at truthdig, human beings have a variety of philosophical perspectives, and those philosophical perspectives frequently, actually constantly, have come into conflict. The history of mankind has been marked by conflict between: progressive and reactionary, humanitarian and non-humanitarian philosophical perspectives.

Yours is an intellekt, devoid of all profundity, declaring itself to be profound. Let me suggest that before you get too concerned with the replacement of C with K that you concern yourself with putting the “see” back in intellect.

To view this world from a point of view of ‘left and right, conservative and liberal, capitalist and communist, etc…’ is to buy into the hegemony condition hook, line and anvil for a sinker.

Break the mold folks.

Seek the objective viewpoint and put your own personal feelings and your origin and your comfort zone aside… then perhaps you may see the picture which has painted for you and perhaps then you may be able to see the brush strokes before they dry.

Shouldn’t we be having big military parades with our soldiers singing “Onward Christian Soldiers…” by now considering how it is such a Holy Mission these days? It would certainly fit part of what is going on in this country. Never ending war until each area is “pacified” and move on to the next. Leaving garrisons behind to “maintain order” as we go and proxy gov’ts to keep the peace as in Iraq. (At least 4 million dead in Iraq, and a greater number wounded since the first invasion in 1991 and embargos and the second invasion and occupation in 2003.)

What we are seeing is the fall of the Republic, just like Rome, it fell first before they had a tyrannical empire both inside and out and it took a while for that to fall.

I’m afraid the richest among us think they can crater the USA then swoop in and have a free hand to rebuild it into some kind of Holy American Empire. One where they can rule without dispute. I hope they fail like they did back in 1934. What a different world that would have been with the USA on the side of the Axis had they taken control.

Isn’t it a little dated to spell America with a “k”?
As though a “K” is more sinister than a “C”.  The concept is as dated and invalid, as the thinkng which produced it. 

If those who bashed America, day in and day out, were truly sincere about the innocent, there would be much, much, much more outcry on these pages, and media in general, about the literally hundreds of atrocities which are carried out daily around the world by all sorts of various groups, nationalities, races, and creeds, as well as individuals.

These atrocities are a result of man being deficient in his character, at least relative to how the self-described exceptional members of the race define man.  But man is not exceptional.  He is no better than the animals which share the planet with him.  Like the animals, man would kill another to feed himself and his family.

Killing to benefit self is a naturaI thing.  Man is a natural being.  There is nothing in him which would indicate he should act in any other way.  Of course, man exceeds the natural process, in that he kills often without the need to feed himself.  He kills for hate.

But why all the hand wringing?  After thousands of years of history, all we have seen is man’s capability to kill and murder.  When are you going to admit that this is the way it is?

If you think I am wrong, then please tell me what is it about man that makes him above the animals?  Nothing realy.  He has just learned to make gadgets which makes the process a little easier for him. His additional intelligence has not resulted in a more humane outlook, but actually in a much less humane outlook.  He alone has the capacity to HATE. 

Complainig and criticizing, without any valid suggestions for improving the character of man, is becoming tiresome.  And don’t tell me we need more laws.  No one follows the ones we do have, so what would be the purpose of writing more?

Quit complaining and criticizing, admit the real problem, and come up with some real solutions.  Otherwise, crawl back into your hole and keep your delusions to yourself. 

It all went on way before America, and it will go on long after America.  America is not the cause of the deficient character of man.  And that is spelled with a “C”.

The only thing worse than a conservative in Amerika at this point, is a liberal. Misguided liberals, their delusional beliefs a creation of a complete lack of historical, political and economic insight as well as their own neuroses and guilt, advocate Amerika’s military involvement for “humanitarian” purposes. I’d love to see evidence of one instance since WWII where Amerika actually helped anyone through indiscriminate bombing and killing. Amerika is perpetually involved in continually warfare, mainly to enrich the MIC- and anyone who believes differently has the same blood of the countless innocents on their hands.

SteveL, July 3 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment
You could have easily bought all the oil in Iraq for
this kind of money and never
looked back.
===================================
Yeah, but look at all the fun we’ve had and the
weapon’s testing; that’s like the icing on the cake.

You could have easily bought all the oil in Iraq for this kind of money and never
looked back.

Steve Brimhall, July 2 at 5:15 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Didn’t Stiglitz and Bilmes updated their conservative
estimate of the cost of these wars of folly in fall of
2010, now estimating in the $4-$6 trillion range?
====================================
Yes, I believe they did. My reason for not including
that was to show that some people knew what the real
costs (dollars) were years ago. Cheers.

We are told that to keep from sinking we have to drill holes in the bottom of the boat to “let the water out”.

Well Inherit that’s a pretty good liner ,I had a quite the laugh.

Cheers and happy fourth

Balkas: I could Dig what you said ,its always been a business until they destroy themselves.

Cheers

GRYM:You’re a Socialist and the Afghan Ladies love you for it.

Cheers

even more important is to find out who pays the costs of u.s wars? obviously, u.s
wars cldn’t cost the onepercenters even a penny.
it is quite likely that all those who use oil and oil products pay in entirety u.s wars.

increasing the price of a liter of gas by just pennies, pays not only for all u.s or
nato/u.s wars, but also make possible exorbitant earnings of some individuals.

in any case, if onepercenters deem that the cost of wars wld be more than
recovered,
then, the wars wld continue to their end.

we know that u.s had waged dozens of major wars and minor wars; all kinds of
raids, etc., and u.s became stronger after each of these actions.

thus, i conclude that u.s ruling class—and the only class that matters, for that
matter—expects this to go on until the entire planet is in its hands.

only future wld show whether u.s—or to be more accurate-adequate, whether
personal supremacism [from which also nazism, fascism, religions rise] wld
diminish or grow.

let’s forget about costs. and u.s has already forgotten about suffering of ‘alien’ and
domestic victims.

i expect that supremacism wld grow. folks, that’s the crucial question: whither
goeth personal, ethnic, cultish, cultural supremacism?

of course, personal supremacism being mother of all evils; includes usury! tnx

DaveZx3, why children grow up wanting to be G.I.Joe and such ( not so much the children of the affluent ) is because of the media. 

I think many of your points is due to the fact that the populous OF THE WORLD is ‘programmed’ ( now back to your regularly scheduled programming ) and conditioned to the hegemony to act, think and desire in certain ways.

Look up Edward Bernays and how that little man helped form the ‘narrative.’

I studied communications in school, and when THIS pictured reality became clear, well, I realized what great responsibility it takes to hold such responsibility… yet the irresponsible and evil have the helm.

I don’t get it.  It seems like war is the perpetual state of men.  The fantasy of being a valiant warrior must be inherent in the genes, or something.  Kids act it out on playgrounds, and it is the major subject of games and comic books. 

It’s popular to say that corporations teach war to children through these entertainment media, but doesn’t there need to some high level of predisposition for these to sell so well?  Or can games and training actually turn someone who is harmless into a bloodthirsty killer?  I don’t think so.

Actually, my experience is that my grandkids like to engage in the good fight, not war in general.  They at least like to play the good guy, as the games that they play always seem to be a righteous fight against evil- doers, who are readily identifiable. 

Hitler was readily identifiable as an evil-doer, so WWII was easy to participate in by the regular people.  In fiction, it is always easy to tell the bad guy.  He laughs that laugh, and wears the black hat.  Like Darth Vader, it is easy to identify them in fiction.

But in real life it gets hard sometimes to tell who the bad guy is.  I am a Vietnam vet, and I know how hard it can be.  But I think all combatants have to believe in their heart that they are the good guy.  And I think most combatants would lay down their weapons if they actually learned that the other guy was not really evil, but just another guy who was convinced he was fighting the good fight. 

The question is, how far do you have to go up the chain of command to find the real evil doers?  I think you have to go all the way to the very, very top, where all orders are issued deceitfully for both sides of any conflict.  Once we recognize that, maybe the regular people will discontinue fighting against those who are no more evil than they are.

But then you have the drug cartels, and others who murder for fun, who, if not pure evil, sure do a good job of imitating it.  I don’t think these guys take orders from the top, but maybe I am wrong. 

Is there actually a war worth fighting, or should we just lay down our arms and plead for mercy?  Or better yet, should there be a concerted effort to track down the “people at the top”?  Kind of like the way we hunted down Osama Bin Laden. 

Really, I don’t get it.  I don’t get any of it. 
If progressivism amounts to anything, why has it had virtually ZERO affect on the propensity for war?  There does not even seem to be a legitimate strategy for decreasing the likelihood of war. 

What can be more outrageous than going into Libya?  A group of unknown people demonstrate for democracy, and that is automatically justification to start bombing the capital of a nation?  I really, really don’t get that.  And I don’t understand why there is not tremendous outrage.

Napolean

Regarding the so-called “MIC”:

Mr. Wills lends us many important and illustrative examples of contemporary American progressive-ism.  Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon. - 19th Century Progressives all.  It’s now safe to say that under each of the above the power and scope of government EXPLODED!

Not until the George W. administration have we seen such rapid and extraordinary powers afforded the Office of President and beyond. 

With recent discussions of shadowy Neo-Cons and the Constitutional Crisis’ in America, today, under Commander in Chief Obama, one only need be “suspect” to get a Hellfire up one’s azz.  Both the Patriot Act and Domestic Intelligence has been greatly expanded and strengthened under a democratic House, Senate, and Hope and Change President.

-

Hiroshima, Korea, Iran, Vietnam, Bay of Pigs, along with the creation of the FIS, CIA, NSA, and even the extraordinary powers of the (nuclear) Energy Dept..  Japanese internment to summary executions of German soldiers captured on American soil.  None of this even touches on examples like targeting civilians in Dresden. 

What do these things have in common?  All rooted and created in the superior wits of Progressive minds.  Those who passionately insist, even today, that they know best.

It’s Not Good.

Regarding micro loans, Kiva.org is a great way to help empower folks around the world and eliminate the world’s banks ( but sadly the money is still lent at interest for the middlemen on the ground )... yet, the angel investor ( you via that website ) can recoup your ‘investment.’

Regarding the march of madness known as the Military Industrial Complex, which beckons tribute from the world’s populous at the behest of the U.S. Military Dictatorship, listen and learn how this came about:

http://fora.tv/2010/02/10/Garry_Wills_Bomb_Power

Micro Loans Give Women in Afghanistan a Chance

Microfinance enables the poor to increase their incomes and build businesses, reducing their vulnerability. This can be a powerful tool toward self-empowerment, especially for women. The idea of microfinance is not new, but the world has taken notice lately, in part due to the winners of the 2006 Nobel Peace Prize, Grameen Bank and Muhammad Yunus, a Bangladeshi banker and economist who originated the concept of micro credit, extending loans to entrepreneurs who do not have access to traditional bank loans.

Katrin grew up in Afghanistan, but moved to the United States with her family shortly after the Soviets invaded. Though the U.S. has become her home, she decided to return shortly after 9/11. According to an article on ladieswholaunch.com, she said some kind Americans approached her, offering to start a micro-lending organization in Afghanistan, provided that she run and manage the organization. Katrin agreed, and upon her return in 2002, she found herself marveling at how she could have escaped such utter poverty as a young girl.

Afghanistan is one of the poorest nations in the world with a literacy rate of 28 percent. Today many women struggle because of the effects of war, the instability of the government, and traditional beliefs about the role of women, especially in rural areas.

Parwaz has close to 1,000 clients (all female) who receive loans and the need continues to grow. Many are engaged in farming, weaving, baking, small shops, beauty parlors, and tailoring shops. In order to qualify for a loan, you must be poor, female, a head of household, or a widow. Widows are given special priority.

Katrin tells one story of a widow named Shahnaz, who had cultivated a neighbor’s field in exchange for three meals a day for she and her several children. At times there was so little to go around that they were forced to eat grass. With a loan from Parwaz, Katrin says, “She bought a cow and started making yogurt and other dairy products to sell. She repaid the loan in six months. We gave her another loan and she bought another cow. In a year and a half, by buying three cows, (the woman and her children) are not indentured servants anymore.”

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Invest in a Woman’s Future
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Does anyone know the next Anti-War Protest is going to be???????  Not!

What a bunch of imbeciles to let these schmucks kill for the benefit of the “Industrial War Complex,” where are the shouts of no more. This is insane!!

Terror, Terror, Terror, Terror, Terror, Terror, Terror, all lies and more Terror. As they take all your rights away.  Did you get your Real ID yet? Did you get scanned in the Airport?
Do you know what the Patriot Act says?
Did you get searched in the Court house or any federal building? 
What databases are you on at this time? 
Did you check a book at the library recently?

1984 what a great book.

Watching our nation commit economic and political suicide, all in the name of “God” and “Free Enterprise” is very sad.

For most of the 5000 years of human civilization, leaders have been tyrants, occasionally benevolent tyrants like Frederick the Great, but still tyrants who, at their death, inevitably left it all to other tyrants.

The rise of modern democracy, that evolved in Switzerland and Britain, led to our whole self-image, captured in the soaring words of the Declaration and in the fundamental concepts of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Now, all that is a scrap of paper and mere words twisted so that “religious freedom” means fundamentalist Christians get to dictate what everyone else’s children are taught. “Freedom of Speech” doesn’t apply to you and me, but means corporations have the right to buy politicians and their votes.
“Economic Freedom” means freedom to pollute, destroy the landscape, the oceans, and market drugs that haven’t been properly tested.
“Stimulus” means giving the biggest banks money, hoping they’ll lend more, and doing NOTHING when their “lending” is…buying government bonds, used to fund….Stimulus.

We are told that ensuring Americans have access to health care and don’t die in the streets like they do in the 3rd world is “Socialism” and that THIS form of “Socialism” is worse than letting millions die.

We are told that to keep from sinking we have to drill holes in the bottom of the boat to “let the water out”.

I’m starting to sound like Chris Hedges…

@ Bat Guano

I disagree about reinstating the draft; as I see it, a military draft is involuntary servitude, i.e., on a par with chattel slavery. I’d sooner see the draft abolished by a constitutional amendment and that it never again rear up its ugly head to trouble America’s young; their lives don’t belong to the US government (or Mordor-on-the-Potomac, as I call it).

All that is left to do is laugh at the insanity and await the end.

Unfortunately, Our country needs war for the economy. It just doesn’t work as anymore because of all the problems we’ve allowed to accumulate. Now we’re on a downward spiral that none of the old will stop. Enjoy the ride.

Here’s where I get off the train wreck. If you are american Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://www.revolution2.osixs.org ). I promise, You’ll get off too.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM
“Spread the News”

IN THE EIGHTIES WHEN AMERICAN SOLDIERS WERE ISSUED NAZI LIKE
HELMENTS…NO ONE PUBLICLY PROTESTED..ONE WOULD WONDER WHAT
THE THOUGHTS OF THOSE AMERICANS THAT DIED IN WWII WOULD
BE…NAZISM DESTROYED GERMANY AND YET ZION AND AMERICA ARE
MODELLING THEIR RHETORIC AND POLICIES….SHOCK AND AWE IS THEIR
MODUS…WHICH IN THAT OTHER LANGUAGE WAS BLITZKRIEG…LOVE OF
VIOLENCE AND CONFORMITY IS THE LIFE BLOOD OF FASCISM…

Thank you! Without Truthdig, and a few other worthy examples, journalism would rot in the disgusting and vapid propaganda sink-hole that it mostly is.

I’d love a slice of cake, I’ll bring the ice cream!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/30/us-drone-
strikes-somalia

Anyone for a slice of cake?

http://rt.com/news/interview-gaddafi-libya-usa/

Go Right Young Man - the world owes Afghanistan, like it owes Vietnam.

I encourage the author to look into the actual definitions of Fascism, better yet some Huey P Long quotes on the matter. It may shock and awe! I know Truthdig’s aim to is recognize and move forward, but if we the people do not realize the magnitude/scale of America’s modern purpose at home and abroad - any hope of the people of the world will be diminished.

I do enjoy how most postings on this site get caught in the middle of the details. Details can be insightful but blind. Details that ignore the larger fact of the matter. That we’ve almost destabilized an entire region, and successfully pissed off India, Pakistan, China, Russia and Iran..so save the literacy campaign and look at the spectrum. $4 Trillion is a low ball - I firmly suspect that this number could be double. America’s Iron Fist Campaign (2001- )is costing all of us - our freedoms, time, money, value, and respect. What have we gained?

People STOP thinking the President calls the shots - it’s pretty obvious they don’t. All the President does is cover the decisions with kind words, and adheres to the power structure. The people are stuffing the overseers bank accounts, not countries. Just another dog and pony show. Narnia is over folks, time to WAKE UP. This isn’t middle school civics.

BOTH parties are to blame, there isn’t even two trains of thought anymore! Pepsi and Coke are so so different….Ignorance and intolerance will destroy us at the basic level, but don’t worry that’s what Groupthink is for!

The world owes the Afghan people a tremendous debt. 

Several dozen countries actively and willingly used Afghanistan to fight a global war. - Reportedly the Soviet Union killed roughly a million Afghans.  After the Soviet pullout Afghan and outside Arab players fighting amongst themselves accounted for another 500,000 deaths.  All in all the cruelty, brutality, misery and poverty has been devastating over the last few decades.  Most, at its root, caused by decades of being caught within Global issues.

Ultimately the people of Afghanistan fell into a position whereas no female would hold a job or be allowed any form of education. Music, dancing, kite flying, games and television was suddenly banned everywhere.  Teaching or speaking anything but Islam was met with death.  Failure to pray five times a day was met with torture and prison.  Healthcare for women and girls was nearly nonexistent.  Hospitals and clinics for women were nearly all closed.

-

As simplistic as I can say it; for a few dozen of the world’s wealthiest nations most directly involved in the cold war to turn their collective back, yet again, could honestly be considered an indescribably self serving, completely myopic, cold hearted and cruel thing to do.

-

Today MILLIONS of children in Afghanistan are learning the sciences previously forbidden to nearly all. I know of no batter way to help one of the very the poorest nations on the planet than education.

If NATO leaves, if NATO guns leave, the roughly 100 governments and hundreds of NGO’s now working to make these things happen in Afghanistan will suddenly cease their tireless work and vacate as quickly as soldiers pull out.  In fact they’ll all leave BEFORE the soldiers depart.

A high-speed rail system? Repairing most of the U.S.‘s crumbling infrastructure? 
None of that would have happened.
Uncle Sam wanted to weaponize space but his plans were undone by ruinous wars.

What I know is simple.  The world owes millions of human beings in Afghanistan a great deal more than lip-service.

-

Afghan Women Joining Armed Forces In Greater Numbers, Challenging Convention
Radio Free Europe

Women can play a key role in the government’s efforts to build a modern military and defense force. But recruiting is no easy task in Afghanistan’s deeply conservative society, where many don’t even approve of women leaving their homes, let alone joining ranks in traditionally male-dominated organizations like the military.

For Khatool Muhammadzai, the question is elementary. “It’s everybody’s duty to serve their country, to protect it,” the general says. “Why shouldn’t Afghan women get involved? So many women from foreign countries are in Afghanistan as a part of international coalition troops and to protect our nation. For us, Afghanistan is our own home. Why shouldn’t we serve our own country”

Arian Mouj Sharifi grew up in Kabul.
Kabul: 16:25 PM

“During the dark years of Taliban rule in Afghanistan, most Afghans were pushing their lives on a day-to-day basis, inspiring themselves with the expression that every dark night will end in a bright day and hoping that one day the barbaric domination of fundamentalism would come to an end and the country would be liberated.”

Dear Friends and Colleagues, I am back in the States for a few days and here is a short report of my activities since last March. 1.

- Continued to meet with the Afghan power establishment regarding the Declaration of the Essential Rights of Afghan Women and the equal rights of women in the new constitution. - These contacts included the clergy, the military, the women’s groups, the provincial delegates, the media and the government, at all levels, in groups or one-on-one meetings.

- We were successful in adding to the signature list such names as Dr. Zalmay Khalilzad, President Bush’s Special Representative for Afghanistan, Mr. Shahzada Massoud, Minister Councilor for Tribal Affairs, Professor Popal, President of Kabul University, Mr. Bahauddin Baha, President of the Commission on Judicial Affairs, and many others.

- Shoukria Haidar, President of Negar and I had a three-hour meeting with members of the Constitutional Revision Commission regarding the delivery of the support signatures (I have already sent you the letter).

- It was agreed to plan a special ceremony. So, on August 11, we invited about 150 of our diverse supporters and the Commission sent two representatives, Ms. Hakema Mashaal Siddiqui and Dr. Abdulhai Ellahi to officially receive the first installment of the signatures (We had managed to transport about one hundred thousand of them from Paris and Washington).

- The ceremony was attended by several ministers, among them Mr. Qanooni, Dr. Farhang and Dr. Raheen, several deputy ministers including Ms. Qamar Wakili and Mr. Mobarez, Deputy Chief Justice, Mr. Manawi, five generals, three of them women, Loya Jirga delegates, school principals, university professors, representatives of foreign embassies including French, American and Italian, women NGO leaders and wives of two ministers, Mrs. Zarghouna Qanooni and Mrs. Marghalaray Pashtun (whose husband has since become Governor of Kandahar), along with scores of local and foreign journalists. The ceremony got off to a good start with the introductory Koran reciting performed by Mrs. Said Bibi Naqi, the first girl high school graduate of Afghanistan. Then Shoukria gave a short speech officially delivering the signatures, as twenty women and men, led by Mrs. Najia Zara brought the reams of signatures and put them in front of the Commissioners.

- Dr. Ellahi, then gave an acceptance speech. - Mr. Qanooni, Mr. Mobarez, Ms. Qamar Wakili, Mr. Manawi and myself also talked about the importance of the equal rights of women as citizens. Shoukria then outlined Negar’s plans until the promulgation of the Constitution, with nine seminars in eight provinces and the last one attended by our international friends to be held in Kabul, just before the Loya Jirga that will ratify this historic document.

- We held the first of the regional three-day conferences in Charikar, capital of Parwan province three weeks ago. - We invited only one hundred of those women in the province who might be potential delegates to the Loya Jirga. We actually had a great turnout of about 250 including about fifty men that included Governor Muqbel, Commander Ayar, Mawlawi Fazli and many from the Al Biruni University in the nearby Kapisa province.-  The speeches and participation of the attendees were so well received that right on the spot the Governor created one hundred and four posts for females at the provincial level!

Billy Pilgrim,

I post articles about the war from truthdig and other sites to my facebook quite a bit as well.  Its only the same 2 or 3 people who ever take notice.  The rest don’t care.  Post a video of a drunk falling over or something cute and it gets a bunch of activity.  Most people I talk to are against the war, but its so abstract that it just doesn’t ring as a high priority for them in their lives.  The cost stuff is too abstract, and the human toll is for the most part invisible in US media.  Half the time I feel like I can’t even get the people around me to even be in the world.  I don’t know how many times recently I have found myself in a room full of people with everyone staring at their phones in rapt attention.  This stuff should be pissing people off but our culture has become very vapid, shallow, and of short attention span.

This stuff is really crazy-making.  Wars cost money -
duh.  Wars deplete treasuries - duh.  And when you
can’t/don’t collect booty from your defeated enemy,
your treasury stays depleted - Korea? Nam? Gulf War I?
Iraq? Afghanistan? AAUGH.

This country really is in the spinning-around-the-drain
phase of its existence.

“The doors of schools and centres for women have been closed for all these years”

ie closed since the Taliban were in charge, before the US invasion.

Those death toll numbers are so low-balled that I can’t even guess what the number is supposed to mean.  Three million dead is a better estimate but not a “conservative” one of course.

conservative = lying

Why does “truth"dig have these lies on its web site?  Look its not fucking rocket science folks.  You wont know the truth if all you ever hear is lies.  Quit the lying.  Quit the “conservative” estimates and have real estimates. 

All I ever see on this site is article compromised with lies.

It’s expensively, insanely, criminally stupid to attempt to create ‘Peace’ by waging ‘War’. Especially these days, when ‘War’ could lead to nukes.

Even if it were to work, and ‘Peace’ obtained, with everyone dead, there would be no one left to enjoy it.

Except the non-human cockroaches.

Imperial collapse is coming to the U.S.
Thank you, Bill Clinton and especially George W. Bush, for that.
Special thanks go to the sixty-two million Americans who voted for the latter even after they knew or should have known that the U.S. invasion of Iraq was illegal and that Uncle Sam’s armies marched under the banner of torture. Way to go, guys!
And credit is due also to Barack Obama, who seemed to run for President as a peace candidate, but who stayed the course set down by Mr. Bush.
If there is a silver lining to the cloud of imperial collapse, it is that Uncle Sam ran out of gas before he could weaponize space and irreparably damage world peace and security.
Good riddance, goosesteppers!

As some wise man once said, ‘A Trillion here, and a Trillion there, and pretty soon you’re talking real money’.

‘Course, our government ‘leaders’ don’t give a damn how and how much money they spend, after all, it’s all OPM (Other People’s Money). It sure isn’t their money, or their corporate sponsor’s money, it’s tax money. So the ‘Other People’ is US. And the ‘Money’ doesn’t exist. It’s in IOU’s representing future OPM.

Makes the whole situation kind of figmental, doesn’t it? Except for the thousands and thousands of our own people we’ve sacrificed, and the hundreds of thousands of collateral damages, and the millions of refugees and homeless.

If the US were still a democracy, we citizens would all be responsible for these tragic farces, these ‘nation-building’ wars.

Billy Pilgrim - No one has expressed my frustration over the wars better than you!!!

Simple: Americans simply don’t care (perhaps they don’t know how to care).

Did not THE 4 Trillion War start with Madeline Albright stating in an
interview with Lesley Stahl of CBS, that the starving of over 500,000
Iraqi children during the sanctions period during the Clinton regime
was “worth it.” ?

And then expanded on by the participants in a Study Group on “A New
Israeli Strategy Toward 2000:” comprised of.

Richard Perle, American Enterprise Institute, Study Group Leader

James Colbert, Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs
Charles Fairbanks, Jr., Johns Hopkins University/SAIS
Douglas Feith, Feith and Zell Associates
Robert Loewenberg, President, Institute for Advanced Strategic and
Political Studies
Jonathan Torop, The Washington Institute for Near East Policy
David Wurmser, Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies
Meyrav Wurmser, Johns Hopkins University

Which was adopted by the GWB administration and expanded to include
Afghanistan along with Iraq, Iran, Syria etc, etc,.

If and when NATO soldiers and guns leave so too will UNICEF and roughly 100 nations and a couple of hundred NGO’s.

Roughly 90% of Afghan woman are illiterate.

-

UNICEF - Real Lives
Women work to tackle illiteracy in Afghanistan

Illiteracy is the single greatest barrier to women’s progress in Afghanistan.

In a small, dank room known as the Department of Literacy in Kabul’s city centre, a team of women, supported by two male graphic artists, is working to change that. As part of an initiative launched by the Afghan Ministry of Education, the Ministry of Women’s Affairs, United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF), United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) and Save the Children US, they are working to produce Afghanistan’s first literacy textbook for women.

According to UNICEF Education Officer Freshta Taj, the process of creating the textbook has helped improve the women’s self-esteem. “The women were very unsure of themselves at first,” Taj says. “But even after the first week, you could see their confidence grow. They really began to develop a sense of ownership and control over the workshops and have more confidence in their abilities. They took on more and more responsibility for the work, even setting up discussions about their concerns and ideas with senior Ministry of Education officials. This self-awareness is carried over to their home lives as well; the women feel more able to deal with issues that affect them in their daily life.”

Director of the Department of Literacy, Najia Zara, sees the initiative as a vital step in building the status and role of women in Afghan society.

“The doors of schools and centres for women have been closed for all these years and educational opportunities for women collapsed. Now these doors are opening again; women understand the importance of literacy and want to avail themselves of this new opportunity – and if women are to play a full role in Afghan society they need to have that literacy.”

Yeah, and we resent paying teachers 45,000. a year. Amerika is a sick, sick society.

Most people in our country don’t give a fuck. I post
numerous Truthdig stories on my Facebook account and
rarely get any feedback from my “Friends”, although my
wife was recently asked by one if I were going crazy.

Four trillion - all borrowed

Our defense budget is 3 times what it was in 1997 and the enemy has evolved into urban commandos.

Fukushima is spreading radiation worldwide and our combined response to that mess is impotent.  We can only kill the masses not protect them.

What we live with now is what “conservatism” has wrought.

With a lot of support from spineless Demos who don’t want to be called “cowardly” or even “treasonous” for supporting Repub wars ...

Joseph Stiglitz, co-author (with Linda Bilmes) wrote a
book, “The Three Trillion Dollar War: The True Cost of
the Iraq Conflict”, which was published in 2008.
To those of us who listen to Amy Goodman’s “Democracy
Now!” this-is-not-news!
Mercy, we’ll just never get it…