gunto says: “It’s time for a Constitutional amendment to remove the Electoral College”

well i might disagree, but i do AGREE that is the way to make any, and all, changes to our laws of the land, if you don’t like them !!

for interpreting a convoluted decision out of an existing amendments that all know have nothing to do with original amendment (Abortion and the 14th amendment?)is no way to run a county,

for yrs libs who lose at the ballot box have been subverting the will of the people with there judges!!

PS- i will get to the other comments soon,

I want to finish off here, since I allowed myself to wander wildly off-topic in a long running rant with Jeff Badura, with a comment on the article’s original intent.

The Electoral College is, in it’s current configuration, neither democratic, nor republican in it’s approach and/or results. With the reality of Electoral delegates being, that they can vote any way they choose, it is clear that the Electoral process is a sham and a perversion of it’s original intent. Without accountability to the voters wishes, the Electoral College is just another example of corruption in government and governmental institutions. The results of the general elections for President, are thrown out, and a tiny group of electors are brought together to vote however they choose, with no reference whatsoever to the general election required. The Electoral College re-action is the only election that means anything, and it’s results have nothing to do with the general election. If the system required, and enforced adherence to the results of the general election, that would be different, but that is not the case. Basically, there is no need for the general election at all, so if this is to go on, just save time and money and cancel the general election for President, and hand it over to the Electoral College and let them choose, because they are the one’s who do the choosing, not “We The People”. None of us outside of that institution have any say in these things anyway.

It’s time for a Constitutional amendment to remove the Electoral College. Time for the tyranny of the majority, as opposed to the tyranny of the few. Time to take total randomness out of the equation, and replace it with the actual will of the people. And any arguments regarding equal representation based on candidates focusing on key election states is retarded. There’s this new thing, called the “Internets” that makes a moot point of all that. We live in a time of virtually instant communications globally, so I think it’s time to let the horse and buggy methodology of the Electoral College go the way of the horse and buggy.

#65053 by Jeff Badura

@ Gunto

Vietnam was battle in the larger “Cold War”, yes we won the Cold War !! the Soviet Union does not exist any more !! eastern Europe is free !!! we won WW III

the big picture gunto !!

Curious. Guess this has to do with your being a “big picture” kinda guy. Now, in the neo-world order, battles are wars, and wars are battles. Guess that’s the way it is now in the Bizarro Neo-World. I would guess you’re a believer in the “Domino Theory” and that our “win” in Vietnam stopped the domino’s from tumbling?

Ya, the Soviet Union no longer exists, but their thermonuclear weapons do, along with far more reliable delivery systems than we have. And your disagreement notwithstanding, the real meaning of superpower is thermonuclear weaponry and the delivery systems to put them on target. Without those, our economic “superpower” wouldn’t have the real existential muscle behind it.

The reality is, the breakup of the Soviet Union made the problem of nuclear weapons proliferation a hundred times worse. Most, if not all of the weapons grade uranium and plutonium out there, came from either the US, or the USSR. When the USSR brokeup, that created several new nuclear superpowers, like Ukraine, Belarus, Soviet Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Turkmenistan…not to mention Russia itself! The reality of the breakup is akin to blowing a Scud missile apart…it’s no longer one piece coming at you, now it’s dozens of pieces coming at you. This ain’t Star Wars, the Death Star doesn’t just vanish in a puff of cinematic special effects…it’s still there, just in a different configuration!

Several of the ex-Soviet states did eventually renounced nuclear weapons, but that doesn’t address the years they did have Soviet weapons and were unable to control the weapons in terms of profiteering through smuggling. And this idiotic administration has done next to nothing to get control of the nuclear materials that we do know about, and can do something about. Basically, they’re spending too much time and money in Iraq to be concerned, or capable financially, of doing anything about paltry little items like nuclear weapons grade materials proliferation and smuggling.

Good luck with your permanent state of “big picture” neo-war. And gosh-a-golly, too bad about the millions of innocent men, women, children, babies and the unborn that you and the neo-CONS are going to kill…but it’s all worth it, cause sometimes you just have to break a few million eggs to make a “freedom” omelette, huh? Children, eggs, what’s the difference!? At least when we cluster bomb them to death, they won’t be beheaded…they’ll be humanely blown into M&M sized pieces instead! It’s all good!

@ Gunto

Vietnam was battle in the larger “Cold War”,  yes we won the Cold War !! the Soviet Union does not exist any more !! eastern Europe is free !!! we won WW III

the big picture gunto !!

#64894 by Jeff Badura

Gunto ??

your losing me ??? remember the crimes of the past are no excuse for paralysis in the future ??

Here we go again, making excuses for our criminal activities in the world. So how far back in the past do these activities have to be to make them moot, a second, a minute, an hour? Is a day far enough? You need to define your terms.

If we overthrow a country today and slaughter it’s people, is it not a crime tomorrow? What’s the statute of limitations on crimes against humanity, like say, the death squads that Reagan unleashed on El Salvador? I’d suggest doing a search on the term “Salvador Option”...it was used in Central America by Reagan to butcher little brown people who had the effrontery to question American hegemony in the region, and it’s been used in Iraq. Negroponte was one of the villains who unleashed the death squads for Reagan. Think School of the Americas, which is also known by some as the School of Assassins.

Nam should not apply here !! that was WW III, we won that war, and this is WW IV, and were still fighting it !! and could loose it !!!

Apparently I’ve lost you. You sent a quote by MLK that for you, indicated he was pro-war. This speech is to establish that he was nothing of the kind. It wasn’t about Vietnam, it was about the general topic of pro-war versus anti-war. MLK was in the latter category.

And we won in Vietnam? That’s got to be one of the victories I missed! I seem to recall we lost that one…guess I’m just a “defeatist”, huh? And it was WW3? Hmmmm…which alternative history book are you reading? I think this alternative view also allows for a permanent state of world war…which is what you’re advocating.

#64678 by Jeff Badura

One more short comment for now.

I am endlessly fascinated by the incredibly hypocritical double-standards that Repugnicans are capable of. Spend a penny on a social program, and they’ll scream bloody murder. But spend a trillion dollars on wars that can only be characterized as questionable, at best, and it’s, no problemo, spend as much as you like, we won’t ask why, how or where!

One of the biggest problems with war spending of this sort is that it does nothing for this countries internal needs, for the countries infrastructure for instance. And this administrations complete myopia in regards to war, has left us wildly vulnerable in so many other areas, like the ports for instance! How many thousands of containers come into this country that aren’t inspected? And even if we could inspect them all, who’s gonna pay for it? The ports are an area of vast vulnerability that has been totally ignored by our War President, and with his borrow and spend policies in support of war, hell, there’s no money left for anything else anyway!

Or, how about our electrical grids, which are antiquated and feeble, and likely to fail at any moment. And if they do fail, we’re in for a world of hurt, because our entire way of life is now completely dependent on electrical power. Remember the blackout in NYC three years ago? That can happen at any time, to any of our cities. Talk about vulnerability, this is serious shit. Our electricity goes out, everything stops…everything. Business shuts down, the government shuts down…everything stops.

Our rail system is in miserable shape, funding in that area is virtually non-existent. Security on the rails is virtually non-existent. Amtrack is a disaster…and only getting worse. My wife and I took a long trip on Amtrack a little over three years ago, and there was ZERO security on the trains we traveled on. Zero, as in NONE.

If you want to look at just one of our weaknesses to terrorism, look at the rail system, which goes through the hearts of every city in America. Nothing has been done to shore up the massive hole this represents in our infrastructure security. But we go merrily on spending a 100 billion dollars or more a year on Iraq…money spent that does nothing for this country, other than give people like you a warm fuzzy, thinking your safe. Think again. A program of only kicking the shit out of other countries to protect ourselves, is like fastening your seatbelts on a plane after the wings have come off.

Are you catching my drift here? Is any of this getting through?

#64678 by Jeff Badura

SOME QUOTS

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -Martin Luther King Jr.,

This one works in both directions. Injustice anywhere, like in Iraq. The injustice of a half a million dead innocents in Iraq, who never would have died under Saddam. Or call it min 61728/max 67703 as reported by IBC, which is backed up by direct evidence, i.e. bodies actually counted. Either way, those are horrendous numbers of innocent dead, especially children, and in many cases, entire families. Sounds like injustice to me.

“It should be the policy of the US to seek to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace the regime “ President Bill Clinton, “Iraq Liberation Act” on October 31, 1998

Wars waged for the purpose of regime change are expressly forbidden by the Geneva Conventions. Those are a set of laws that this country signed, specifically dealing with rules of warfare, and conduct of war once waged. If laws are not obeyed, why have laws? And quoting Bill Clinton? You still think I’m a fan of Bill Clinton? I’d have impeached his ass too if he’d tried what Bush has. Basically, all they had on Clinton was a blow-job that he lied about, cause after spending 50 million to get him, if they’d have had anything else, they would have used it. Had he followed through on this quote though, there would have been grounds for impeachment. Look it up in the Constitution, in Article VI. Treaties signed by the United States are the “SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND”. The language is explicit. They’re not to be tossed on the ash heap because they make things difficult…being difficult is the reason for laws!

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.” -John F. Kennedy, Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961

A very broad and sweeping statement that can be interpreted in a multitude of ways. And, JFK was a bastard too, so don’t even go there.

Without justice, there can be no peace. He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it.” -Martin Luther King

Think about this quote in regards to the possibility that what Bush has done is evil? Entertain the possibility for a second, even though you don’t believe it. The quote works in that direction as well.

Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. -Ronald Reagan

I’ll let that one by St Ronald the Evil Empire Slayer go. You don’t want to know what I think of him. He earned impeachment, but was only saved from it by all the Repugnican shills who formed up around him when it became clear he was going down if they didn’t. HW was the real power behind that throne…and he was the only one in that vile administration who told the Senate to shove it when they subpoenaed him in the Iran/Contra case. And the Senate backed down. I wonder who he threatened to have killed? He was CIA director after all, and it wouldn’t have taken much for him to make family members disappear.

Gunto ??

your losing me ??? remember the crimes of the past are no excuse for paralysis in the future ??

Nam should not apply here !! that was WW III, we won that war, and this is WW IV, and were still fighting it !! and could loose it !!!

#64678 by Jeff Badura

A FEW MORE THOUGHTS-

us Neocons might be called fascist? by the left, but in reality, were intellectuals, who have thought long and hard about the problems we face.

Being an intellectual who’s thought long and hard about the problems we face doesn’t mean you’re not a fascist. That is a non sequitur, they aren’t related. Mussolini was an intellectual, as were many of the Nazi high level people, like Joseph Goebbels, the inventor of The BIG Lie…which states that if you tell a big enough whopper, people believe it, as a matter of fact, the bigger the lie, the more likely people are to believe it…kind of like saying we had to attack Iraq!

To me, the basic meaning of being a fascist is about the joining of industry and government in a partnership of war, violence and brutality…at a hefty profit. That is where this country is now, with the greatest amount of money in our annual Federal budget going to pay for the war industry. And virtually every congressperson and senator is on their payroll. The government has been for sale for a long time now, and the ones who own them and pull their strings, are the war profiteers.

Fascism however, is politically correct in this country, so many don’t see it for what it is. Just because the government isn’t imprisoning massive numbers of US citizens (wait a minute…they are…this country has the highest prison population in the world, and most of the crimes are victimless, aka drug related…and there are big corporations making lots of money running the prisons), doesn’t mean it’s not a fascist country.

The entire world knows what we are, because they’ve paid the price of our international fascism, in their lives and fortunes. We have done terrible things in the world, and all you can say is, bygones. And in saying that, you condemn people who have been wronged by us as simply evil and destined to be erased by this country. In human affairs, bad things don’t happen in a vacuum, there are always reasons, even if theyr’e sick and twisted. Sometimes the people who do sick and twisted things were forced into doing those things because they were wronged and powerless to right those wrongs. One reason why people blow themselves up.

And if you want the final evidence of just how “liberal” I am (which I do NOT think I am), then I should recount one of the first things that I thought after seeing the 2nd plane hit the WTC (a friend called us after she’d found out about the 1st plane). I thought, what kind of hell does a person have to live in to be capable of such cold, calculated brutality? After that, the sheer horror of the potential of those attacks came into focus. We were very lucky that tens of thousands of people didn’t die there. The first responders made a huge difference there, and many of them gave their lives.

And, to finish this thought, the Bush administration’s EPA chief of the time, Christine Todd Whitman should be up on criminal charges! She issued a directive that the pile at WTC was safe, when in fact it was NOT safe, and she knew it. Many of the first responders who worked on the pile now have serious respiratory health problems, and several have died as a result, and more will be dying in the coming years. My mother died fighting for breath, because of emphysema, and I wouldn’t wish that death on anyone. Bush and his minions pushed for that clearance, to make it look as if it were safe, and to save money on the equipment that was required to protect the health of those workers. All politics…they were, and are, expendable.

Just one of hundreds of reasons Bush should be impeached and removed from office. Perhaps the only way that will ever happen though is if he’s caught having sex with a subordinate, and then lying about it! Then he’d be impeached!

#64678 by Jeff Badura

Since you chose to quote Martin Luther King here’s a speech he gave one year to the day before his assassination…

DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR.: If we do not stop our war against the people of Vietnam immediately, the world will be left with no other alternative than to see this as some horrible, clumsy and deadly game we have decided to play. The world now demands a maturity of America that we may not be able to achieve. It demands that we admit that we have been wrong from the beginning of our adventure in Vietnam, that we have been detrimental to the life of the Vietnamese people. The situation is one in which we must be ready to turn sharply from our present ways. In order to atone for our sins and errors in Vietnam, we should take the initiative in bringing a halt to this tragic war and set a date that we will remove all foreign troops from Vietnam in accordance with the 1954 Geneva Agreement.

    Part of our ongoing commitment might well express itself in an offer to grant asylum to any Vietnamese who fears for his life under the new regime, which included the Liberation Front. Then we must make what reparations we can for the damage we have done. We must provide the medical aid that is badly needed, making it available in this country, if necessary. Meanwhile, we in the churches and synagogues have a continuing task: while we urge our government to disengage itself from a disgraceful commitment, we must continue to raise our voices and our lives if our nation persists in its perverse ways in Vietnam. We must be prepared to match actions with words by seeking out every creative method of protest possible.

    These are the times for real choices and not false ones. We are at the moment when our lives must be placed on the line if our nation is to survive its own folly. Every man of humane convictions must decide on the protest that best suits his convictions, but we must all protest.

    Now, there is something seductively tempting about stopping there and sending us all off on what in some circles has become a popular crusade against the war in Vietnam. I say we must enter that struggle, but I wish to go on now to say something even more disturbing.

    The war in Vietnam is but a symptom of a far deeper malady within the American spirit, and if we ignore this sobering reality, we will find ourselves organizing “clergy and laymen concerned” committees for the next generation. They will be concerned about Guatemala and Peru. They will be concerned about Thailand and Cambodia. They will be concerned about Mozambique and South Africa. We will be marching for these and a dozen other names and attending rallies without end, unless there is a significant and profound change in American life and policy.

correction gunto-

PBS 12 hr special on all week, is “Frontline, America at the Crossroads,” i do hope you have a tivo or some way to check it out, i have been very impressed and very pleased with the fair and balanced and nuanced look it is giving, at the mess we are all in!!

A FEW MORE THOUGHTS-

us Neocons might be called fascist? by the left, but in reality, were intellectuals, who have thought long and hard about the problems we face.

SOME QUOTS

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -Martin Luther King Jr.,

“It should be the policy of the US to seek to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace the regime “ President Bill Clinton, “Iraq Liberation Act” on October 31, 1998

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.” -John F. Kennedy, Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961

Without justice, there can be no peace. He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it.” -Martin Luther King

Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. -Ronald Reagan

IllGramaticus Knee O’Kaun

Come on, Gunto,

Bin Ladden, picked the Saudis for US consumption, not for just you !! but for all of us, so we could blame them !! and many have !! i cant pin-point exactly were I’ve heard that, but i have over and over, probably several places, the ABC 9/11 movie that Clinton was crying about, every 9/11 anniversary there’s more and more documentaries about the incident, and i watch them all, there has been a score of books on the topic, they know how it was planned, and done !! this week, PBS is doing 12 hours on American Frontiers (2 hrs a night all week) about the “War on Terror”  for instance do you know Ramsey went to Bin Ladden for backing and muscle, he wanted to hit the nuke power plants in CT and Jersey, that bookend N.Y.C., but Bin Ladden Vetoed him ??? told them to hit the Capitol and the White House instead !! the Pentagon was a 2nd target, cause they over flew the capitol !!  Bin Ladden knew that hitting a nuke power plant would be the end of his movement and total World War would ensue if they did that !!!  but, will the next guy be so smart ??? Bin Ladden is no bodies fool, and underestimating our enemies, is dangerous !! No, I’m not defending the Saudis !! their scum !! i hate them, but one step at a time Gunto, Rome wasn’t built in a day !!

Yes Saddam would have been that dangerous, and his sons too, with time, they were an impediment to future peace !! and the world, and the UN, is way to feckless to do squat, about anything !! my hope is that 75 yrs from now the Middle East is as cowardly and liberal as Europe is today, but that’s a pipe-dream, i know !!  we are alone Gunto, we are the centuries manning the guard-tower’s of freedom, for the rest of the world has forsaken themselves !! the Islamics will chew-up and spit-out the Europeans (and the lib’s of this country too) !! I’m sad to say, just look a Britain’s cowardly response, to Iran last week !!! to see what i mean that was a disgrace !!! I’m ashamed for the Brits !! but then again I’m ashamed for us all !! 

IllGgramaticus Knee O’Kaun

PS- you made an Roman analogy a while back, the Roman Empire lost its way (after 800 yrs) because it became to enamored with its wealth and comfort, they ignored the dangers at the borders and allowed the rest of the world to catch up with them militarily and culturally, they would rather buy off the Huns, the Vandals, the Goths than destroy them ,and they were eventually destroyed by the neighbors that they looked down on !! we are far from there yet, and its not a fair analogy for we are not a Fascist Empire, and the human race has come a far way (except the Islamic Radicals) but libs got it ass-backwards the Roman did not lose their Empire, cause they were Warriors or War like!!  they lost their Empire when they stopped being Warriors, became soft and ignored the threats at their borders !!

May I suggest a swifter way to civilize our presidential elections? Will some civic organization, TruthDig for instance, invite its readers/members to ask presidential candidates the following question: “Assuming you would won the electoral college vote but lose the popular vote, would you still accept to become president?” The moment a serious candidate answers “no,” what will the others do? Won’t it spread like a wildfire? Wouldn’t this be the de facto end of the electoral college farce?

#64439 by Jeff Badura

Too much to respond to in one posting. Part 1…

Man, I just have to say, you’re swimming in the deep end of the nut pool. Sorry, but that’s my honest opinion.

>he picked the Saudis, so that you would react the way your reacting !!

Bin Laden did it for me! Wow…I had no idea. He certainly is one devious lil’ ol’ terrorist.

>Bin Ladden hand picked the Saudis to do that job

Ok, your gonna have to provide the source for that claim. I’ve not heard that, and considering how little is known about how the deed was done, that seems highly suspect as a claim that can be backed up with facts.

And man, your defending the Saudi’s, the Wahabi’s who public stone and behead people. They’re at least modern about the stonings, basically, they drug the perp, and then fill a skip loader with stones, and then dump the stones on the drugged individual. They also cover it on TV. I’m sure there’s a brisk business in DVD’s of the executions. Got some great allies there dude.

Are you really incapable of making the leap of logic regarding Saudi complicity and the total lack of evidence of involvement by Iraq in 9/11? Really?? Truly???

And if Saddam was so dangerous to the entire world, who (outside of Iraq) had he attacked in the dozen years between Gulf War I and 9/11? Oh, that’s right, no one. But he wanted too!!! And that’s a good enough reason to attack any country and murder it’s innocent population, because their government (that murdered them as well) wanted to attack the world, but had no capability whatsoever. Talk about a paper tiger.

>if the attacks we and British foiled last summer, would have went off??  all >the attackers would have been English born Muslims, so if you expand on >your logic than we would and should attack England ??? of coarse not !! >its not nations we are war with, its radical Islam, and they exist in almost >every nation !! but there born from the Middle East.  so yes “we do what >we can do” first Iraq, because of the many problems of the last 20 yrs >caused by Saddam !! then Libya surrendered, now we have to finish Iraq >and by doing so probably will have to bomb Iran, either way Iran cannot be >allowed to acquire nukes !! then Syria and Sudan will have to be dealt with >militarily too !! hopefully in time the Saudis will liberalize if they don’t then >that’s another problem to deal with at a latter date !!

By my logic, we never would have attacked Iraq, or Saudi Arabia at all. I don’t blame entire nations for the actions of a literal handful of people of any nationality. Now Afghanistan, that made sense to attack as a result of the Taliban support for al Qaeda, but the rest, complete and utter brain-dead nonsense.

Let’s look at the word WAR, shall we?

As described by Merriam-Webster’s 11th Collegiate Dictionary, the number one description is as follows…

1 a (1) : a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations

Note the words, STATES OR NATIONS. War is about states and/or nations, not extremist groups, or individuals…those are called fights, not wars.

Man, I like that we can be congenial, but you are truly delusional. Read your words, you’re talking about world domination. You’re saying it’s ok for the United States to attack countries because we need to make the world like us, cause if they aren’t like us, they’re trying to kill us. You’ve even got a list…Iraq, Iran, (you forgot Afghanistan…we dropped the ball there), Libya (if they resist us again), Syria (our partners in extreme rendition…guess they didn’t torture well enough) and Sudan. And do you really think the Saudi’s are going to “liberalize”, whatever the hell that means? Just put em on the list dude! Then of course, there’s Turkey, Pakistan, Egypt (Atta was from Egypt), India, Somalia, Ethiopia, UAE (one was on the plane), Yemen…all Muslim countries will go on the chopping block. This is paranoid schizophrenia…of a very expensive variety, both in dollars and in lives.

Gunto

Bin Ladden hand picked the Saudis to do that job, for that reason you have stated, he was trying to drive a wedge between the USA and Saudi Arabia, it was his wish and plan to have us cut off relations with the Kingdom, and then we would be facing off against them too as well as Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya, his plan was to have us strike back for a short while, get tired, then leave the Middle East completely, (what the Dem’s are up too today )  then he, or his kind, could wage the religious civil war against the moderates without our interference !! look the problem we have is not with bordered nations, it is with a cultural movement, called Islamic Extremism so Bin Ladden who is one of the gang leaders in this movement, could have picked many different kind of nationalist if he wished !! he picked the Saudis, so that you would react the way your reacting !!

if the attacks we and British foiled last summer, would have went off??  all the attackers would have been English born Muslims, so if you expand on your logic than we would and should attack England ??? of coarse not !! its not nations we are war with, its radical Islam, and they exist in almost every nation !! but there born from the Middle East.  so yes “we do what we can do” first Iraq, because of the many problems of the last 20 yrs caused by Saddam !! then Libya surrendered, now we have to finish Iraq and by doing so probably will have to bomb Iran, either way Iran cannot be allowed to acquire nukes !! then Syria and Sudan will have to be dealt with militarily too !! hopefully in time the Saudis will liberalize if they don’t then that’s another problem to deal with at a latter date !!

for the Islamic extremist will use the WMD’s once then get their hands on them,  we cannot use diplomacy on the Islamic zealots for they have already stated there demands : 1) leave all countries on the middle east. 2 )stop supporting Israel. 3) convert to Islam and follow Sharia law. !! maybe we could do #1 and #2 but the third is a non starter, no, its Jihad, and they have declared it,  only killing off the leaders and changing the more belligerent governments of the region one by one will give us a lasting peace for our grandchildren !!

face the facts , they hate us cause were not Muslims !! if the region isn’t socially modernized, the world is doomed !! its not fear, its reason !!! the nexus of WMD’s mixed with the Islamic Radical suicide-cult religion is a recipe for total destruction !!
 
9/11 was a just a preview, and if we don’t heed the warning, then shame on us all !!
they say they want to kill you ???  leaving Iraq before we stabilize the country will only make things worse !! and leaving the government of Iran to build nukes, will only make things worse too !!
what do you plan to do long term about 9/11?? kill Bin Ladden and say “the war is over” then 10 yrs from now. and NY gets nuked??? by the next group? who is to blame???

the president has the obligation to protect us !! long term !! not one attack at a time, but the big picture, long term !! libs live in a vacuum !!! the president doesn’t have that option !!

after 9/11 he was obligated to act, and Saddam was the 2nd on the list to go !! there are more to come in the future too !

its a mess Gunto, but one we must face !!

#64060 by Jeff Badura

Issue #2 - facing the evils of the world.

An update. Depending on who you prefer to believe, DOD’s budget for 2008 is something like a trillion dollars. The budget that is quoted is 456 billion for 2007, and 501 billion for 2008. But these numbers don’t reflect a great many things that DOD spends money on, like Iraq and Afghanistan for instance. Or, veterans benefits. Or, nuclear weapons development. Lots of things that aren’t addressed in the “official”, politically correct, budget. I’m convinced that at the very least, it’s fair to double whatever is quoted as the DOD budget of any given year…and that is most likely very conservative.

That said, the amount of money they spend each second of everyday of the year, is more like 30,000 dollars. Just a way of putting the “cost” of doing war business in perspective. Considering how much we have spent over the last decade (including the Clinton years), the claim that Saddam was a danger to us is laughable. If he was a threat to us in any meaningful way, then it doesn’t matter how much we spend, cause we’ll never be able to spend enough. Especially notable when one considers how easily the terrorists of 9/11, all 19 of them, breached our system. Throwing money at a problem like this rarely, if ever, fixes the problem. Working smart, rather than just expensive, seems a better way, especially when sending such a massive debt to future generations.

And by the way, slightly off-topic, why didn’t we attack Saudi Arabia after 9/11? If we could make the claim that a country that had nothing to do with it was a threat, then why wasn’t the country that had everything to do with it (16 out 19 of the hijackers were Saudi), a threat? I’d like a straight answer on that one…and make it one that doesn’t just say they’re our allies, cause with allies like that, we don’t need enemies. And by the way, you do know our allies, the Wahabi’s of Saudi Arabia. believe in public stonings and public beheadings with dull swords, right?

And why is Osama not an issue again? Saying he’s not an issue, by your logic, since you compare all this to WW2, is like saying getting Hitler was not an issue…or as long as we stop the Nazi’s, it’s cool if Hitler walks away. Seems a bit of a stretch, no?

Sorry…I said I’d keep it to one issue!

Previous postings have worried that the abolition of the Electoral College would result in a handful of states controlling the country through a ‘dictatorship of the majority.’  This is a false argument, as the Bill of Rights protects individual and minority rights (at least prior to W and the Republicrats dismantling it).  Along with the abolition of the electoral college would be proportional representation and instant runoff voting.  The two party duopoly would be GONE!  We would then have a beginning to a true democracy.  Personally, I don’t need the elitist ‘upper crust’ deciding for me—I can do that myself.  Some of these concerns are nothing more than frightened apparatchniks determined to maintain the status quo of our pseudo-democratic republic.  Those of you who argue that the law is sacrosanct need to immigrate to the dictatorship in China.  I prefer to fight for my rights—defending the principles of true democracy.

to the many comments by Gunto,

our main argument has been about the War, the war on terror the war in Iraq, why we are fighting it, or why we should not be fighting it ??

we can agree on several facts, 1) America is a rich, gluttonous, culture, 2) many of the problems we face in the world today can be considered “blow-back” for past deeds good or bad !! 3) we are currently in a war 4) the nation is very politically divided

so the question we have, and disagree on? is how to fix these problems ?? 

when i find fault in the lib PC way of wanting our nation to fight this war you said “This is incorrect, at least from where this “liberal” is standing. I don’t make excuses for, or placate terrorists, or bad guys around the globe.”!!

well maybe “you” don’t Gunto, but “most libs” do !! this attitude is not conducive with winning the war !! the “my way or the highway” you complain about ?? again, is not a fair assessment for Bush was elected President, thee congress gave him the resolution,  it has to now be his way, that’s the way our system works !! we cant win this war having congress deciding who and were we fight it by the bi-weekly poll results they get!!

you complain about how much it costs ??? what is the cost of failure ?? as i pointed out we are a fifthly rich culture!! i think we can afford the sacrifice even though many do not have the stomach for sacrifice (the point of my last post) 

we agree we are at war, we agree that it partly our own fault !! can we agree that its important for future generation of the human race to defeat the Islamic Extremist ?? or do you think we can live together in peace if we just surrender to them over and over again until our way of life is lost ??

i for one, have one driving force, that promotes me to post here, and other places and discuss such matters with people of different opinions !! the reason is, to try to make some headway with those who have that different opinions, to show them the trouble we are in !!

you agree with the trouble, you said so, but i have heard “no” ZERO remedy for the problem from you, other that honest complaints about our system, and country, way of life and history, and so forth !!

you stated “I fear that it may well end one day soon, especially if another terrorist attack occurs on US soil. I’m afraid the Constitution is so fragile now, that it won’t survive the hit. And that will be the end of the United States as we’ve known it. That said, I am glad that the US is still a place of freedom of speech, and I truly hope it remains so.”

i tend to agree with you, and I’m trying prevent the next attack, as Bush has been trying to do, yet many on the far left believe he planned the first attack ?? how do we on the right reason with such foolishness?? 

after the war is over, then that is the time to reflect on how we got there, to fix blame were it is deserved, to make amends if we were wrong, but only after the war is over, and we have prevailed !! to do so in the middle of the fight is unproductive and dangerous !! the next two presidents (minimum) will be fighting this war, regardless of party, we owe them the support they need to win this war !!

illgramaticus knee okaun

PS-  1) we don’t torture as a policy, its against the law 2) the The American Dream is (not) a sad fantasy 3) if we helped Saddam stay in power in the 80’s, we then have as responsibility to remove him if he becomes a monster,

#64060 by Jeff Badura

the Dem’s, liberals, progressives. or “left” of our nations mean well, but they want to make excuses and placate the terrorists, or bad guys around the globe, blaming ourselves,when its not our fault, for all the worlds ills cause they are quasi-religiously apposed to punitive action (war). never willing to make the hard choices of what to do, about past ills and looming disasters to come, more willing to try to build some wall or institutions (more bloated bureaucracies ) to combat the problems, with the least amount of personnel sacrifice !!  even resenting those wanting to face the evils of the world, ( neocons )

Issue #2 - facing the evils of the world.

This is incorrect, at least from where this “liberal” is standing. I don’t make excuses for, or placate terrorists, or bad guys around the globe. What I do think is, there’s more than one way to skin a cat, to quote a sick old saying. However, the “neocons”, whoever and whatever they are, say there’s only one way or we all die. Bush’s “my way or the highway” mentality is wrong, simplistic and self-serving. There must be a dozen ways the attack on 9/11 could have been dealt with, but none of those ways come close to being as expensive or damaging to our overall laws and philosophy as The Deciders Global War on Abstract Nouns (GWOAN).

His My Way method actually plays directly into al Qaeda’s hands, in that it is well known that one of the prime methods Osama employs is to get superpowers to spend themselves to death. He did it to the Soviet Union, and he’s in the process of doing it to the USA. We are deeper in debt than ever before, and only going deeper. The DOD spends approximately 20,000 dollars a second, 365 days a year, 24 hours a day. That is a shitpile of money! Not going into detail on my taxes, but let’s just say that the DOD eats my yearly federal taxes in about a quarter of a second!

This insane level of spending has to stop, and another method other than total bankruptcy through endless war needs to be found to deal with this threat. And understand, I agree it’s a threat, and your opinion notwithstanding, I’m not tucking in terrorists at night and singing them a bedtime song. They need to be stopped, because they are doing evil, however, when the actions we take are as evil, and even more shortsighted, it’s time for a change.

Torture is one area where we’ve gone over the cliff and are now in freefall. Our embrace of torture as a tool against terrorism makes us no better than they are, for that matter, in one sense we’re worse, since we say we don’t do that, or as Mr. Bush said “Americans don’t do that’. That was a lie. There are several Americans who have been convicted of doing that, but they were not the few bad apples as claimed. All of the investigations of torture in US facilities have followed the uniform code of justice, which in all of these cases only allowed for investigating DOWN the chain of command, not up. And there was a reason for that…the policies came from the top, and the system sealed them against the law.

You can’t have it both ways, you either have laws and morality, or you don’t. When it was revealed that we have tortured and killed while torturing, we no longer had the right to accuse anyone of wrongdoing in this respect. And, if the time comes, and some unfortunate US soldier is captured and tortured, we will have no right to claim wrongdoing, because we no longer honor the Geneva Conventions any more than our enemies do. Once again, the difference being they never did sign the treaties, which means they aren’t the hypocrites that we are. Simply put, you either follow the laws of war agreed upon in decades past, or you don’t, and if you don’t, then those laws no longer apply, including in relation to protections for either side. And that is where we are now, no rules, and no rights to complain when things go awfully wrong.

#64060 by Jeff Badura

I’m not completely finding fault in our gluttony, for it drives our economy, giving us a wonderful standard of living, but we have become very soft just the same !! the American dream is the acquisition of as much wealth as possible, with the least of amount of sacrifice necessary !!

I think it best, if this “discussion” continue, to be specific to one or two issues at a time. I’ll start with two issues, first, The American Dream. Next post will have issue #2.

There is no American Dream, at least for other than a tiny percentage of the very wealthiest of this country. The current bankrupt middle class thinks they have the American Dream, because they have “stuff”, but the fact is, almost none of it is paid for. That says to me, they have an American Nightmare.

The average individual credit card debt in this country will take around 40 years to pay off…and that doesn’t address the debt that will be added in those ensuing decades. Basically, Americans are in debt for life, and as a result, are unable to save anything toward retirement. And that would have been the original AD, working and achieving independence for old age. That no longer exists. There is an entire generation now that will be homeless when old age comes. Simply put, at one time there was hope for the middle class of this country, but that has evaporated over the last 30 years or so.

Ronald Reagan was instrumental in this, in that he championed tax cuts for the wealthy, and attempted to remove all meaningful controls on business. There is a point to be made about making business socially responsible. It’s about how much business owes the taxpayer. There is a public works system in place, that we the taxpayers built and paid for, that business takes advantage of, i.e. power generation and distribution, roads, sewers, water purification and distribution, first responders such as firefighters and police…infrastructure that we paid for, that is used by business.

When Ronald Reagan slashed taxes on the wealthy from about 70% to 28%, the tax base moved even more to the middle class, but then, the middle class has always born the brunt of taxation and support of social infrastructure. Whenever utilities have any cost of production or improvement, it is ALWAYS passed on to the consumer, even though those very same utilities couldn’t exist without the tax supported social infrastructure of this country. Business wouldn’t exist without it. And yet, business howls like a banshee whenever they are expected to pay their fair share. Old news, but to the point related to the American Dream, or lack thereof.

And yes, we have lots of “stuff” that raises our supposed standard of living, but much of it is superfluous crap that we could do without. Our gross national product is inflated because of these very products, like a thousand different varieties of television sets, or stereos, or food processors, or air conditioners, or whatever! How many different models of automobile do you really need? Of course, none of it is about need, it’s about wants. And Americans today simply live beyond their means, because business has programmed them through endless S&M (Sales & Marketing) on television and the internets. There is an old term I wish would come back…layaway. There’s an entire generation now that doesn’t even know what that means. It’s about not getting what you want until it’s paid for. And layaway didn’t involve usury, only payment for the product, and final ownership. Today, virtually no one actually owns anything. Like houses, my wife and I are in a tiny majority there, we own our home. How many people do you know who own their own home…or their car? Hell, they most likely don’t own the clothes on their backs!

The American Dream is a sad fantasy, only because people have been fooled into believing it’s real, all while any semblance of it is now gone with the wind. Tomorrow is another day…but I doubt it’s gonna be better than yesterday!

@ gunto

WHY THE LIB’S ARE AGAINST THE WAR

  after WW II the baby boomers came into the world with the highest standard of living of any human in the history of mankind, they repaid such a gift with a deep-seeded feeling of entitlement,  there is always a wave of resentment for past generations and a feeling of entitlement by human youth, that still permeates our culture today !! the “me culture” is looked upon with admiration “greed is good” we must acquire more and more things to make us happy,
fighting of the cold war that followed WW II upset many of the baby boomers,  they see no evil, hear no evil, unless your talking about their own government, equating a moral relativism to all, for instance, seeing no difference between the gulags of Russia and Camp-Gitmo ( Sen, Durbin on the senate floor 2005) sacrificing our national wealth and the bravest and brightest of our population in the name of future generations security, is not palatable to the masses !!
  I’m not completely finding fault in our gluttony, for it drives our economy, giving us a wonderful standard of living, but we have become very soft just the same !! the American dream is the acquisition of as much wealth as possible, with the least of amount of sacrifice necessary !!

  this selfishness manifested itself into rebellious attitudes starting right after WW II (maybe even earlier) towards the culture and institutions that gave us everything, we now have !!!   

  the Dem’s, liberals, progressives. or “left” of our nations mean well, but they want to make excuses and placate the terrorists, or bad guys around the globe, blaming ourselves,when its not our fault, for all the worlds ills cause they are quasi-religiously apposed to punitive action (war). never willing to make the hard choices of what to do, about past ills and looming disasters to come, more willing to try to build some wall or institutions (more bloated bureaucracies ) to combat the problems, with the least amount of personnel sacrifice !!  even resenting those wanting to face the evils of the world, ( neocons )
 
  for instance it was called “a rush to war in Iraq” this is a favorite bumper sticker of the left, when the issue of Saddam’s brutality was with us since the 60’s with over 3 wars he was to blame for,  and over 12 yrs of sanctions and 16 UN resolutions ?? calling it a rush to war is pure fantasy, we went through yrs of sanctions with no good results !! fooling ourselves that we had Saddam in a box !!

    some would rather blame those responsible to address such problem (our Government ) for the inherited problem itself ?? just to lie to ourselves, or rightfully blaming the policies of the past without a willingness to correct them !!!

    even worse call the party and the leaders in power liars and profiteers to discredit your own involvement in the war, saying Bush miss lead us ??? saying Bush invaded Afghanistan to build a pipeline ??  or saying that the Iraq war is to blame for the worlds terrorism ??? did they forget about 9/11 ??  or even saying that 9/11 was conjured up by our own government as pretext to invade the nations of the middles east ?? what kind of message does give to the world today in a bloody battle for hearts and minds we are fighting.

    the left the libs and the Dem’s just have no core responsibility too their country their planet or the future generations to come !!! a large portion has become soft spoiled rotten lazy cowards !!  this way of thinking is not conducive with doing what is right around the globe !!! 

illgramaticus knee-o’kaun

#63765 by Jeff Badura

same here !!  look at the bright side, in some parts of the world, opposite political opinions inside the same country, and we would be shooting at each other !!  at least here in the USA we can disagree without killing one another !!

That is something that I hope will not end. However, I fear that it may well end one day soon, especially if another terrorist attack occurs on US soil. I’m afraid the Constitution is so fragile now, that it won’t survive the hit. And that will be the end of the United States as we’ve known it. That said, I am glad that the US is still a place of freedom of speech, and I truly hope it remains so. It will only survive however, if We The People insist, and keep all the politicians feet to the fire in this regard.

PS- Q.; when has the USA in a time of War ever voted for a dove??

Personally, I can’t think of a US President in my lifetime that I would call a dove. Perhaps Jimmy Carter would be the closest to that term. If Hillary becomes President (god forbid), I don’t think she’ll be a dove at all. As far as I’m concerned, no one currently running is a dove. Basically, in this country, politically speaking, dove’s are an endangered species.

I guess I need an example of a dove to really know what that is. Not only can I not think of one in my lifetime, I can’t think of one at all.

On an unrelated topic, but still an important one, one of the fears I have for this country is a complete financial collapse, perhaps even worse than the Great Depression after the stock market crash of 1929. I think it fair to point out the similarities between the 20’s and now, i.e. more money in fewer hands than ever before. That is true now as it was true in the 20’s. We also have an artificially high stock market, that is dangerously overextended on credit. This country has zero savings by the middle class, as a matter of fact, the savings now is a net negative…people are spending more than they make, so not only are they not saving, they are getting deeper in debt with each new day.

What I’m getting to here is the political landscape. The Great Depression was preceded by three of the worst Presidents ever…all Republicans, all pro-business, all anti-middle class. They were, Warren G. Harding (1921-23), Calvin Coolidge (1923-29) and Herbert Hoover (1929-33)...three in a row, and the walls came tumbling down! It took a pro-middle class President like FDR to raise the country out of the financial disaster brought on by 12 years of Republican mismanagement and corruption in the executive branch. I see the same thing happening again…just far worse. This country has gone through the looking glass financially, with virtually ever American in debt up to their hairlines. That is one of the things I truly loathe Reagan for…removing the usury laws that prevented moneylenders from screwing their customers, and his deregulation of the credit industry. Did you know that GE’s (one of the biggest weapons manufacturers on Earth) credit division is their most profitable division? One of my favorite one liners is as follows…

AMERICA, USURE FRIENDLY FOR OVER 30 YEARS.

I truly hope I’m wrong, but if I’m not, this country is in for a very bumpy ride in the coming years. And, based on the war footing we’ve put forward, if our economy does fall out from under us, we will be terribly vulnerable. This country may end up going the way of Rome, which was eventually overrun by barbarians (at the gate) when it totally lost it’s way. They were the greatest superpower of their day too, but didn’t remain that way because they were unable to adapt to the world they had created, through violence, financial and military domination, and wars…wars that eventually were fought by mercenary armies (re: Blackwater USA) that turned on them when their weakness became self-evident.

As I say, I hope that I am wrong.

#63561 by guntotin ganglion on 4/12 at 10:06 am

” I do respect your views, and your reasons for them, I simply disagree entirely with your suppositions. I’m glad that the “discussion” has moved beyond recriminations and name calling, on both our parts.”

Gunto

same here !!  look at the bright side, in some parts of the world,  opposite political opinions inside the same country, and we would be shooting at each other !!  at least here in the USA we can disagree without killing one another !!

PS- Q.; when has the USA in a time of War ever voted for a dove??

#63506 by Jeff Badura

The US and our allies were directly involved in arming both Iran and Iraq, and when the war started, Iraq was going to lose, since Iran is so much larger, and was far stronger, but we interceded on Saddam’s behalf and made sure they didn’t lose…and in so doing, created a monster, and extended what should have been a short war, into the longest war of the 20th century. We did that, no one else…and in doing it, we set Saddam up as the despot we finally overthrew because of how powerful we made him. It all sounds like cold-blooded opportunism to me…we set him up as a threat to the region, and when he achieved that, we accused him of being a threat to the region, without ever acknowledging that we made him so. And, as usual, in all of this, American (and our allies) companies made billions in pure profits.

Being a country founded out of European culture and extremism, I can see the parallels you make with Europe. Relatively valid points. However, the middle east is something entirely different. Thinking we can change them by force of arms is a fool’s paradise. Their culture is far older than ours, and it has been based in tribalism for thousands of years. Our efforts there are guaranteed to fail. Basically, don’t even try to teach your great-great-great-great-great grandfather how to suck eggs! It is the height of hubris to think we can effect positive change in the middle east through force. All of our power, which is historically the greatest ever, will make no difference. The only change all of our projected power will effect, is negative. And then there will be blowback, and innocent people will once again die.

And good luck with Mr. McCain. I’ve mourned our defeat in Iraq since the first day we started the unprovoked attack there. I don’t cheer our defeat, I find it horribly tragic for all involved. But nothing will make this sows ear into a silk purse. We lost when we fabricated the justifications to attack a defenseless country. And to continue with the evisceration of the people of Iraq, using this facile claim as justification (that we’ll make things better) is so wrong…we’re the reason things are so bad there, and if we stay, it will only get worse, as it has every day since we arrived. And I just have to say, ol’ McCain is one of the biggest flip-floppers in history, but if you think he’s the guy, as I say, I wish you luck on that one, truly.

And not to worry about my taking a vote away from him, I won’t. I either will not vote, or will vote for Ralph Nader, which I realize is a non-vote. I’m with George Carlin on this. He said in a recent standup, that he refuses to take part in this circus, and will only sit in the bleachers and watch the circus go on. I’m with him there. I’m for watching the fools take us lemmings off the cliff, especially since nothing I do will change anything. Doesn’t matter if it’s a demo or a repub, they’re the same. Politicians are vermin, and not to be trusted for a second…and it doesn’t matter what they call themselves, they’re all barracuda’s.  And if I do vote for Nader, it will be because he is the only human being who’s run for President in my lifetime. Years ago corporations poured millions into a campaign to discredit him, to find “dirt” in his past. They failed miserably, and completely. He’s literally as pure as the driven snow…a truly moral man in a world otherwise virtually devoid of morality.

I do respect your views, and your reasons for them, I simply disagree entirely with your suppositions. I’m glad that the “discussion” has moved beyond recriminations and name calling, on both our parts.

@ #63471 by guntotin ganglion

Gunto

well when your dealing with war and peace and mankind’s history nothing happens to an exact template or plan, war is like a fire and once started it can rage uncontrollably

to blame the USA for the Iran-Iraq war is a giant stretch, we might have antagonized the situation but we were not the cause !!

i don’t wish to see the bloodshed and carnage unleashed on the Middle East that was unleashed on Europe in WW-I and WW-II but I’m positive and I’m sure, you will agree, that the lasting peace and stability that most of Europe (other than the Balkans) has enjoyed, was due to the 2500 yrs of warfare they finally got out of there systems in the 20th century !! never in the history of the Continent, since before the Romans has the Continent been so peaceful, and now they are slowly coalescing into one mega-country on there own without a despot to concur them !!

i believe the same, is eventually possible in the Middle East too !! but before it can be done the century’s old revenge tit for tat you are speaking of, has to be worked out of their systems, just as Europe need the helping hand and involvement of the USA so does the Middle East, they have to be prodded into a longer peace, and were in the region could this be better started then in the multi-ethnic region called Iraq!!

so again we disagree, were i think US involvement is necessary for a future peace, you believe its an impediment to future peace, so we have the heated arguments you see across the country !!

i was very pleased by the words of our next President John McCain, yesterday, and i will leave you with some of them : “Before I left for Iraq, I watched with regret as the House of Representatives voted to deny our troops the support necessary to carry out their new mission. Democratic leaders smiled and cheered as the last votes were counted. What were they celebrating? Defeat? Surrender? In Iraq, only our enemies were cheering. A defeat for the United States is a cause for mourning not celebrating. And determining how the United States can avert such a disaster should encourage the most sober, public-spirited reasoning among our elected leaders not the giddy anticipation of the next election. Democrats who voted to authorize this war, and criticized the failed strategy that has led us to this perilous moment, have the same responsibility I do, to offer support when that failure is recognized and the right strategy is proposed and the right commanders take the field to implement it or, at the least, to offer an alternative strategy that has some relationship to reality”.- McCain 4/11/07

IllGramaticus Knee O’Kaun

re: #63287 by Jeff Badura

I will add a postscript, and there’s no need to reply if you don’t care to. Your final post made me truly feel for you, and understand your concerns. However…

I feel that the warfare we have chosen to wage is spreading so much violence, death and grievous injuries that it is the very thing that you fear will bring blowback in years to come.

In human affairs, you cannot waste the lives of so many innocent, uninvolved people and not effect hatred from their surviving friends and relatives. They will seek revenge, it’s that simple. This was one of the main reasons 9/11 happened, because of blowback for bad things you have agreed that this country has done, but you think no longer apply. Those who’ve been wronged disagree, and have been looking for opportunities for vengeance ever since. What they did was evil, in that they killed innocent people, but no more evil than the things that were done by this country to the innocent people of their countries.

We have meddled in the affairs of foreign countries all over the world for decades, and to simply think that that’s behind us, and that those who attack us do so because were on top, or because they’re simply evil, is incorrect. If someone killed a member of your family, and you had the opportunity years later to exact revenge, would your vengeance no longer be valid because they say it no longer applies? And if you killed innocent bystanders, you would be no better than them. It’s a lose lose situation, those who are wronged lose, and those who wronged them lose, and none of it changes anything for the better.

Over the decades, this country has been directly involved in the killing of millions. The Iran and Iraq war, which went on for 8 years, was one we were ultimately responsible for, and it saw a million dead. We sold to both sides, and made sure that war went on far longer than was necessary, and in so doing made a much stronger monster out of Saddam. How many million Vietnamese died in Vietnam? Guatemala? El Salvador? Nicaragua? Honduras? Panama? Columbia? Ecuador? Chile? All countries that the US has meddled with and overthrown legitimate governments because they wouldn’t play ball with American business.

I believe you believe you are right. I believe that in your heart you are good. I understand your fears. But, the old saying applies…evil happens when good men do nothing.

Regards and peace.

#63247 by Guntotin Ganglion on 4/10 at 9:50 pm asks “You sir, are a war appeaser. You make excuses for the industrialized death of infants, children…so many that shouldn’t have died. How can you sleep at night?”

its simple Gunto,

i don’t agree with your supposition, i don’t believe the war is illegal, i believe we are doing the right thing for the greater good of humanity,

yes, i do lose sleep at night, but not do to guilt from my actions or my support, i often toss and turn because, i believe your side, your group, of like minded thinkers, are so horribly wrong, and if you make enough noise to obfuscate the facts, (like 9/11 plot) then you could aid in the USA losing in this war on terror!!(horrible name for a war)

i lose sleep because, i wonder if the USA has lost its collective will, to do to the hard necessary jobs around the globe,

and i lose sleep because, i logically see into the future, 10, 20, 30, 50, yrs from now, and I see a horrible probability on the horizon, where we could lose millions, in a future attack,

if the USA loses its resolve today, and adopts just a smidgen of your attitudes !! we could lose this war gunto, and that does keep me up at night !! 

your right the banter has become redundant,

so have a nice day, i mean it
illgramaticus knee o’kaun

re: #63131 by Jeff Badura

I don’t hate you, I feel sorry for you. And having anger toward such simplistic “reasoning”, in the face of overwhelming facts regarding the criminal nature of this “war”, doesn’t mean that I hate you. Pity is a better word.

You are like a friend of mine. A nice guy, who means well, but is delusional. You are just like him. Your words and arguments mirror his to a T. You both have bought the endless propaganda, hook, line and sinker. I tried for years to get through to him, figuring if I could turn his ponies slightly, I might have achieved something. I found, as with you, that it isn’t possible. Your ponies will not be turned by logic, reality or facts of any kind. You know what you know and will suffer no challenges. And sir, I know what I know, and can back it all up with reality and facts, but sadly, the time it would take to troubleshoot your mischaracterizations of my writing, makes it not worth the effort, for in the end, no matter how I delouse your delusions, you will continue with delusion.

And no one knows how many have died. We don’t do body counts, which of course, is another war crime. Reputable establishments like the Lancet (aka Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health), who’s data have been used by the administration when they agree with their political goals, and “discredited” when they don’t, are the estimates I choose to believe. Their statistical methods are standardized and peer reviewed. They’re methods and results are NOT discredited by anyone who understands what they are doing. You’ll dismiss them off-hand, but I would ask, what is your knowledge of their methodology, that you can dismiss them at all?

Your figure of 50 thousand is fiction. Even the conservative Iraq Body Count, which is woefully short on reality, has the deaths today at a low of 61074 and a high of 67015. That’s a ratio of over 20 to 1 innocent casualties to US armed forces casualties. If you care to pull your head out of Bushworld for a moment, look at the average Lancet estimate, and you will see a 200 to 1 ratio. Go to the high end of the study, it’s closer to 350 to 1. By any measure of warfare, a 20 to 1 ratio is horrific…that means that 95% of all deaths are innocents. 350 to 1 is a psychotic nightmare…that cranks the percentage of innocents dead to 99.7% of all mortalities.

Ya, I know “regrettable…but it can’t be helped”. You sir, are a war appeaser. You make excuses for the industrialized death of infants, children…so many that shouldn’t have died. How can you sleep at night?

As Madeleine Albright said when asked if the deaths of over a half a million children, by starvation and deprivation during the embargo of Iraq, were worth it, yes, it was worth it. She is a vile pile.
Your answers show me that you don’t read my words, you look at them and react, then go into standard defense mode. You are incapable of critical thought. And the reason I mention that this is not a war is that without the Constitutionally mandated declaration, none of your arguments about “this nation being at war” carry water. There was a reason why the Constitution included this as the solemn duty of the Congress not the President…but you’re not interested in reality, or in the Constitution, because you say we’re at war…and the Constitution says we are not. So the Constitution is wrong, and you are right…congratulations, the Constitution loses.

There is no war and Bush has no extraordinary war powers, and as a result, all of his crimes against the Constitution, that he claims to have a right to do under his “plenary” powers (which don’t exist in the Constitution), are indictable crimes. He should be brought before the international court at the Hague and tried as a war criminal. There are laws in place that forbid aggressive wars with the express intent of regime change…and those laws need to be enforced now.

I’m tired of this pointless interchange. This “discussion” is over.

to the comments 63045 & #63031 by guntotin ganglion on 4/09 at 5:19 pm & at 3:54 pm

Gunto,

  Your constant insults and expletives, is a sign of you being irrational, your inability to separate logical thought, from passioned opinion (like many on the left) again is a sign of your state of mind !! how can you think clearly, when your ranting and raving, insulting those who might disagree with you, for I’m sure you hold the same hate for our government and our leaders as you do for me !! hate is blinding Gunto, haters aren’t clear thinkers,  frothing at the mouth like a mad-dog. is no way to influence people, or change minds !! its just a path to a mental evaluation by the authorities that you despise so much !!

  now for the point of your tirade

    As far as Saddam and Iraq goes !! i don’t believe we have killed 1 million people in the war of liberation ??? more like 50 thousand give or take a few thousand and as i said it is regrettable when ever innocents die in war, but it cant be helped !! Keeping Saddam in power was a dead end for the future of the region and world peace !!

  only going after Bin Ladden after 9/11 is like going after the shooter of the Valentines Day Massacre and leaving Capone and Moran and both their gangs and the Mafia alone !! Hell they went after the NY mob after the V-Day incident !! cause the culture of crime was the problem, not the shooting, sure Saddam did not plan 9/11, but Iraq, Iran, Syria, the entire region and their proxy armies, and their hateful form of Islam are to blame for the culture of “terror” that has infected the planet !!  Yes, we should find Bin Ladden, and kill him, but its much bigger than Bin Ladden !! and not seeing that is very simplistic on your behave !!

  we have been in Iraq for 4 yrs, and only lost 3000 troops (slightly more than gang deaths in L.A. in the same time period) so you libs complaining about the war not being over, or that we made matters worse, or that it a lost cause, is just more simplistic thinking !! change takes time, we are still in Germany and S.Korea !! 70 and 60 yrs later !!

    As i said in my last post, yes the USA had made mistakes in the past, for selfish economic reasons and for Cold War Reasons, we did support Despots !! but the hated Neocon’s have for 10 yrs now, publicly stated that that was wrong, and we should no longer act accordingly !! (the Dem’s and libs in the government have said no such thing, Gunto ) Nancy pants and the Dem’s believe the path to peace is by appeasement and coddling of murdering despots, so your anger should be directed at their direction not at mine !!

  the fact that the USA has made mistakes in the past, i will repeat is no reason to do nothing in the future !! we have a responsibility to the plant, for we are, like it or not, the sole super-power, if we don’t do it, nothing will get done (see the Sudan)

  i call you and your kind traitors cause, we are at war Gunto, whether you agreed with the war or not, your country decided to go to war after 9/11, bullets are flying and men are dying, and calling your country liars and proffiteers and criminals during a firefight is only helping the enemy !! the enemy takes your words, and uses it for their propaganda worldwide !! if your giving aid and comfort to the enemy, what would you call it ??? patriotic ??

  yes Prescott Bush and the King of England, and Joe Kennedy were Nazi sympathizers ??? whats your point ??? your a Saddam, Iran, Syrian sympathizer ?? and regardless, the mistakes of a grandfather, cannot be put on the back of this grandson, that’s ridicules logic !!

Gunto, lay of the hate, and support your county in war time !! cool it with the insults it only makes you look foolish !!

you live in the greatest county in the history of mankind, sure we made mistakes, but who hasn’t, we could use your help in this long war we are fighting so how bout pitching for the big win !! 

illgramaticus Knee O’Kaun

back to Saddam he was sponsor of terror he was a impediment to change in the middle east as long as he was in power there would be no peace in the region !!

Good to see we’ve set that right. A million innocent dead Iraqi’s are very peaceful. And old Saddam wasn’t a sponsor of terror when Reagan and Bush I were President…then he was a good customer of the US and it’s allied weapons manufacturers in England, France, Germany, Brazil…so many made a mountain of money arming that psychopath. We build em up, we knock em down, we build em up, we knock em down…it goes on and on and on…and it continues to this day. And the soulless weapons capitalists make money either way, and often selling to both sides.

after 9/11 we as a nation decided that his 12 yrs of UN sanctions to no end and 16 resolutions were enough reason to depose him !! he never came completely clean with the WMD inspections so whether we have found them yet, or not, its immaterial, he violated the inspections and the sanctions and he had to go !!

You’re an idiot, and you continue with the lies and deceit that was shoveled before this unprovoked war. Do you know what that means, unprovoked? It means that Iraq has ZERO to do with 9/11, and ZERO to do with the so called terrorists we were supposed to be fighting and stopping…remember Osama? Where’s OSAMA!!!??? Hundreds of billions spent on Iraq, and OSAMA is a free man! He’s the enemy, not Iraq you moron!

We went after Saddam cause the Moron-in-Chief wanted to one-up his dad, and kill a lot of people doing it (the icing on the cake for a dyed-in-the-wool psychopath). I REPEAT…NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER WITH AL QAEDA OR 9/11. Read that again a few times and see if it gets through your thick skull into the realm of that tiny brain that’s rattling about.

And how dare you call me a traitor Mr Good German…don’t question an illegal war, don’t question Der Fuhrer, be a GOOD CHERMAN!!! So what if he’s murdering men, women and children. Look up Prescott Bush there Herr Knee-Jerk, he was not just a good German, he was an EXCELLENT German…he personally helped Hitler come to power. He was the banker to the 3rd Reich spanky…and the money he made in his partnership with Brown Harriman (one share being worth around 20 million in 1940’s dollars) was the seed money for his sons oil business in Texas…and the blood trail leads all the way into the White House to this day.

Drink your Kool-aid…it’s good for you.

re: #62947 by Jeff Badura on 4/09 at 8:56 am

and quoting misdeeds of the past are regrettable, but the past is the past, we can only go forward in life ! and allowing the past to paralyze us in the present is no recipe for a future lasting peace

You’re describing a shark…we can only go forward. Appropriate. And ya, murder is, as you say, “regrettable”...especially when it’s committed by the land of the home that is free of the brave!

There’s no statute of limitations on murder Gumby…and when we overthrew Mosedegh and Arbenz and Diem and Allende and Torrez and…the list is way too long…we committed murder. We installed brutal dictators/stongmen who butchered their own people, like in Indonesia under Gerald Ford (think East Timor) and US companies made massive profits as a result. This country has a blood stained past, and a blood stained present. The murders have not ceased, and the torture continues. You’re cool with torture, right? It’s ok if we use it on them, but if they use it on us, there’ll be hell to pay! Amoral hypocrite.

Lasting peace? You don’t want peace, you want war. Without someone to kill, where’s the fun in life?

I’ve been holding off on more strident terms for you…but perhaps in the next post I’ll address your accusing me of treason…you miserable SOB…

re: #62947 by Jeff Badura on 4/09 at 8:56 am

you said “don’t they know that when we overthrow their democratically elected governments,” hey, question, Gunto ??  you say Saddam was elected democratically ??  wow !!! if that’s your answer to you argument then you are lost dude, point, game, match !! your freaking out there !

Could you read me back the sentence where I said Saddam was democratically elected? Oops, you can’t read that back cause I never said that.

More later…

@ the comment 62824 by Guntotin Ganglion on 4/08 at 10:26 am

Gunto,
did i say they hate us for our freedom ??? (some do) no !! i said they hate us cause we are on top !! 

you said “don’t they know that when we overthrow their democratically elected governments,” hey, question,  Gunto ??  you say Saddam was elected democratically ??  wow !!! if that’s your answer to you argument then you are lost dude, point, game, match !! your freaking out there !

and quoting misdeeds of the past are regrettable, but the past is the past, we can only go forward in life ! and allowing the past to paralyze us in the present is no recipe for a future lasting peace

we are a super power not only due to our military strength but more importantly because of of our economic strength !! the American dollar makes the world go round, our dollar keeps the bad guys in power !! saying so it not bravado or chest thumping its honesty !! we are the sole superpower on the globe and being so we have a duty to the rest of the planet !! what were Uncle Owen’s famous last words ?? “with great power comes great responsibility” never were truer words spoken !! 

as you pointed out we have placed despots in power in the past, shamefully so !! the neocon movement that started in the mid to late 90’s, is a movement that states we should no longer support despots for a temporary false peace !! that we should appose these despots when ever possible, and move the planet down the road to more free place to live for all mankind ! this is a noble calling not one derived from a wish to subjugate or abuse the less fortunate around the planet as the left believes !!
but to uplift them to a more equal place on the planet!

back to Saddam he was sponsor of terror he was a impediment to change in the middle east as long as he was in power there would be no peace in the region !! after 9/11 we as a nation decided that his 12 yrs of UN sanctions to no end and 16 resolutions were enough reason to depose him !! he never came completely clean with the WMD inspections so whether we have found them yet, or not, its immaterial, he violated the inspections and the sanctions and he had to go !! 

again i go over this over and over, but the left seams to have there collective head stuffed deep in the sand !! to say that Islamic Extremism with its suicide-cult form of Islam is not a threat to mankind, is just PC wishful thinking, its blindness on behave of those on the left, who are looking for an excuse not to act !!

your disdain for my comments that the USA is the sole superpower, says volumes about your outlook in these matters !! you are apposed to our power, and don’t like the fact that we hold this responsibility in the family of nations !! but we do !!

the difference between WW II and today is the attitude of the left and people like you who believe the worse about your country, who are upset at your country’s high standing, and who basically are a disgruntled, misguided, lot, not only do we have to fight a dangerous enemy abroad, but we also have to put up with the treasonous left-wing of the country who is impeding the war effort at every chance !! you and your kind are the best tool the enemy has !!

gunto your line “You ain’t under my skin…you’re just an asshole who needs education” again says volumes, for it point out your intolerance for the truth, and your personnel angst toward those you disagree with !! hate is the path to the dark-side !! hatred of your country is going to get you nowhere in life !!

have a nice day !!
illgramaticus Knee O’kaun

re: #62656 by Jeff Badura on 4/07 at 8:42 am

i disagree with you, in your statement that the USA has not lost its greatness, we are the sole superpower, so this has turned opinion in the world against us, cause we are on top !! but as soon as any nation faces trouble the people come running to us in need !!!

Mmmm…tasty Kool-aid…“cause we are on top”...as in, they hate us for our freedom? Or everyone just wants to knock the big dog down? Is this elementary school? Those ungrateful sub-humans, don’t they know that when we overthrow their democratically elected governments, it’s for their own good? Mosadegh in Iran in 1953, Arbenz in Guatamala in 1954, Allende in Chile in 1975…this list goes on and on and on. All democratically elected, and overthrown by the CIA and replaced with military dictatorships that were pro-American business, that proceeded to butcher their own people after we put them in power.

And I have to take exception to the mindless macho characterization of the USA as the sole superpower. What describes a superpower? Nuclear weapons, that’s what. And it is clear that Russia especially, and China, have enough nuclear weapons, and delivery systems, to match us detonation for detonation. They have fusion weapons which are measured in megatons, just like ours. And it is THOSE weapons that describe what you refer to as superpower.

So, as usual, you are delusional and a propagandist knee-jerk. We certainly can attack China or Russia with our nukes, and kill hundreds of millions of innocent people along with their nefarious governments, and our trillion dollar “defense” shield, which was the hallmark of 80’s war profiteering, might shoot down one or two of their response missiles, but only if they’ve agreed to put homing devices on their warheads as we’ve done in all of our testing of the “defense” shield. If they are unkind enough to not agree to put our homing beacons on their warheads, we will all have a very bad day, superpowers et al.

So…how do you describe “superpower”. Seems to me if you have enough nukes to kill a hundred million human beings, you are a superpower. America, Russia, China, France, England and our lovely ally Israel, are all in this category. Oh…and isn’t it interesting that the five permanent members of the security council are the five top weapons manufacturers in the world today. And when Iraq and Iran were having their war in the 1980’s, that saw a million dead on both sides, we provided both sides with weapons…at a mighty hefty profit I might add.

So…beat your chest dude, show me how macho you are…sole superpower my ass.

#62656 by Jeff Badura on 4/07 at 8:42 am

As others have said, you sir have drunk the Kool-aid.

I never said America wasn’t great, I said America is wrong, and needs to be made right. Might does not make right. And the difference between WW2 and this retarded “war” is that in WW2 there was an actual threat…unlike in Iraq. NO WMD DUMMY. No connection to al Qaeda. All lies. And while your waging war on every nation on Earth, why don’t you just nuke them all while your at it, you mindless warmonger! You do know that your beloved Commander-in-Chief calls WMD weapons of mass murder…and who is it on this Earth who has more WMD than us…oh ya, no one. And who has used nuclear WMD…only the US…which according to the Decider’s rhetoric, makes all American mass murderers.

If we use WMD, as Bush wants to in Iran, then his own words make him a murderer. You can’t use weapons of mass murder and not be a murderer. WMD are indiscriminate killers…they destroy the innocent and guilty without discrimination…and I’m certain you’d love to nuke everyone you think is out to get us. Paranoia is a way of life for people like you.

A handful of mostly Saudi Arabians (OUR ALLIES DUMMY) and NO IRAQI’S attack us on 9/11 and we go to “war” against Iraq. Makes sense. Hell, after Pearl Harbor we should have attacked Korea, or maybe Brazil, using that logic! Your facts exist only through a dark looking glass of paranoid schizophrenia. Comparing this dishonorable “war” to WW2 is an outrage. This is a totally fabricated “war” being waged by war profiteers who are making record profits by stealing mine and your taxes…by the trillions. By the time this mindless obscenity is over, trillions of tax payers dollars will have been packed into war profiteers coffers. Take a step back in time dude, and read, or listen to Dwight D. Eisenhowers final speech before leaving office…he warned of the uncontrolled military-industrial complex, which he had been deeply involved in. He knew whereof he spoke, and he predicted what is happening now, that a state of permanent war would be fabricated for the sociopathic war profiteers to reap unnending profits from. And it has come to pass. My fear is that our economy is going collapse under the constant borrow and spend policies of the extremist republicans in power (not that the democrats are any better)…and if that happens, this country could be defenseless against the wrath of the world, that we have gone out of our way to create.

Oh…and the only way the Iraqi’s are going to follow us home, as The Decider says they will, is if they can swim the Atlantic. They have no air force, no navy, no army, nothing, and somehow they’re threatening the world with WMD they don’t have and never did. Over a hundred thousand sorties were flown over Iraq during the embargo years, and never once did a shot by an Iraqi anti-aircraft battery even get close to hitting a US plane…and somehow, they were a threat to the world, based on the endless propaganda machine in the Bush white house.

They certainly had chemical and biological weapons in the late 80’s…all of which had very limited shelf-lives. And of course, how do we know about these things…BECAUSE WE SOLD THEM TO THEM! Reagan, when threatened by Iran, removed Saddam and Iraq from the terrorist nations list, and proceeded to sell billions of dollars in weapons systems to them, violating all sorts of treaties along the way. The enemy of our enemy is our friend…ya, great friend, thanks Ronnie.

And as to the CIC’s duties, he is only sworn to protect and defend the Constitution. It is the documentthat is supposed to protect the American people. And if Bush is wiping his ass with it, as he does every day, then he is NOT protecting the American people.

You ain’t under my skin…you’re just an asshole who needs education.

@#62598 by Guntotin Ganglion on 4/06 at 9:00 pm & @ 62603 by Guntotin Ganglion on 4/06 at 9:33 pm

Hey gunto,
  thanks for reading most of my posts, i haven’t heard from you before, so maybe there are other silent fans out there, who’s skin I’m getting under !! (i can only hope)
 
  i would disagree when you say i’m not open for discussion or difference of opinion,  because by the fact that i keep coming back for the abuse i take on this site, the outlandish stories i read on this site. it is sort of proof that i am at least willing to listen to the far-left propaganda !!

  i disagree with you, in your statement that the USA has not lost its greatness, we are the sole superpower, so this has turned opinion in the world against us, cause we are on top !! but as soon as any nation faces trouble the people come running to us in need !!!

  you praise you father’s service and rightfully so, but i would surmise the difference between WW II and today was the attitude of the people !! were as after Pearl Harbor the country all got together and decided to fight the war “until” the end, regardless of the cost, today’s fat, lazy, rich, impatient Americans after 9/11 were upset for a couple yrs (Afghanistan and Iraq ) then reverted back to the selfish ways (me generation) and some now twist the truth, to blame the USA for planning 9/11, or to cry the war is lost we must retreat (Iraq), gunto, if some tried this tactic in “44” they would have been tared and feathered in the streets!! today, they get hero worship on truthdig and the nut-roots!! my praise, for my beloved country, is not blind, I’m no lemming, i know history, and we are unequalled in our freedoms, and strength and we are the best thing to happen the the human race!!! for never has a power like ours, used that power for the greater good, as we do !!!

  you are correct about not “declaring war” i was very upset at Bush after 9/11 for not doing that to all seven “terror” states:Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Afghanistan, Libya, N.Korea and Cuba, named terror states by the state department of Clinton ! for the world will not be safe until all the government of these counties (as of 9/11) were deposed or changed there ways !! some would have rolled over with out a shot, (as Libya did)just by the declaration !! and the world would have reluctantly been behind us !!

  regardless we are at “war”, whether its declared or not. whether you acknowledge the enemy, the threat or not, this is WW IV (WW III was the cold war) Bush is no criminal, he is the Commander and Chief and its his duty to protect you, and me, and our children and their children, from the scourge that is Islamic Extremism, and from dictators WMD proliferation,

  the 9/11 plot talk and saying we are not at war, is just lib’s way to stick their head in the dirt, to deny we are under attack, because their political disposition wont allow them to see thing properly, they deny the war, cause they are against war, its delusional, just as they say the 2000 and 2004 elections were stolen !! more delusion so they dont have to face facts !!

i say your a lib? or what ever you want to call yourself, and i think it fits you !! for your views are far-left, so call yourself what ever you want ill paint you a lib with my big fat brush !!!

have a nice day
illgramaticus knee o’kaun

This is an important step but it should be just that. What we need to restore a semblance of democracy is multi-party proportional representation like other modern democracies. The first step in that direction must be the elimination of the electoral college which enforces the corrupt duopoly.

re: #62519 by Jeff Badura - Part 2

yes we live in a republic !!  look it up !! a Democratic Republic made up of 50 States !! so the Electoral Collage and the electoral votes do count !! cause the good wholesome people in the country, don’t want you rotten city folk ruling them, with out this comprise by the founding father, (10 some yrs the revolution-but you Iraq fixed in day) without that comprise, we wouldn’t even have a nation !!

We do NOT live in a Republic or a Democracy. Please note that electoral delegates can vote as they please. They have no constraints on their votes, they can vote for anyone they like. The electoral system is a sham…which is to say that the corrupt Electoral College isn’t democratic, or representing a republic. It is a sick joke. This isn’t a democracy or a republic, it’s an oligarchy controlled by the ultra-rich, who own everything of consequence. They’ve got people like you programmed to believe that “the system works”, which it doesn’t.

And since you mention Iraq, what we need to do, is GET THE HELL OUT OF THAT COUNTRY WE NEVER HAD A RIGHT TO INVADE TO BEGIN WITH. The only way Iraq will ever be whole again, is if we leave…which we will never do, we’ve spent too much money building super-bases there. So, you fix Iraq…keep accepting the killing of children, cause that’s how it’s done in Bushworld.

the government of Fla called the election for Bush, then, the Dem’s and Gore took it to the courts, and you cry-baby’s are upset that Bush fought back, and the court ruled in his favor !!! get over it !!! you lost, your a loser, ha ha ha ha, just like you will be in 08 !!!
Look up the word puerile. It describes your adolescent reactionary comment to a T. I know you are, but what am I?

I lost nothing, cause I didn’t vote for either of the psycho losers who ran on the “standard” tickets. I didn’t lose, cause I don’t vote for sociopaths like Gore and Bush. The only losers in 2000 were the American people. And tell me more about my “liberalism”, please! Clinton should have been up on war crimes charges, and Gore would have carried on with that. Bush however, set a new standard for Presidential psychopathy…he’s the king-hell psycho of them all. I knew he’d be a bad President, but I never guessed he’d be the hands down worst of all time!

there’s a reason 28 out of the last 40 yrs (by 08) have been run by GOP Presidents!! its because, you lib’s are feckless and unfit to lead !! your post point it out better that i could ever describe !!! if you think Obama or Hillary, is going to beat McCain or Thompson, for the post of Commander and Chief, in “War” time ??? well then, you need help !! but by your post, i can see that

I’m not a lib, as you so euphemistically put it. You see, you’ve gone so far off the map to the right, you can’t recognize a real conservative. I used to be a Republican, but I would be ashamed to be one now. I’m an independent. And no one who’s spent the nations fortune like the Decider has any right to call themselves conservative. You and your “people” are extremists, willing to destroy the country you claim to adore, out of willful ignorance and blind faith in the nihilism of death and destruction. War begets war, as it always has, and always will. Death is the only treasure won in war. And if ol “Bats in his Belfry” McCain becomes President, God help this country, cause no one else will. He’s a true batshit loon.

And finally, read the Constitution. There is no war. No one’s declared war since December 1941…and if the Congress doesn’t declare it such, it ain’t a war. It’s a disaster, a conflagration of ultra-violence of the industrial variety, and it’s illegal in that it was about regime change, but it’s not a war. And I love the Thompson reference, aren’t people like yourself loathing of Hollywood types? Oh, ya, there’s Arnold, St. Ronald The Evil Empire Killer and of course, the redoubtable Fred Thompson. They’re as stanky a pile o horse shit as Hillary and Obama!

You’re right, Jeanine. They have have been passing laws from the state level on up to federal level interpreting the Constitution and without consulting the people with a vote! That is wrong! Wheter it is illegal is another matter, and something we need to research. I think we’ve got’em. GREAT COMMENT!!!

re: #62519 by Jeff Badura - Part 1

your post shows your intolerance for a difference of opinion, a knee-jerk opinion, is one made with out thought ??? hhhmmm ??? me thinks you need to look in a mirror !!

My post shows that I’ve read many of your posts. Your post shows your intolerance based on a single post that was IN YOUR FACE. I know how you think from the reference point of your writings. I’ve read your polarized posts time and time again, and you are at least consistent, you never give in, you never discuss, you never allow for honest opinion, only attack and denigrate…and you are only capable of lecturing based on talking points, like the dimwitted Decider/Dictator. Your method is the exact technique used by the extremists off the right wing fringe, you establish a premise, and proceed from there as if it were gospel and unassailable, which it NEVER is. Typical extremist.

your are related to a monkey, he’s yours, and my, cousin, but, you evolved form pond scum or some stank mold !! (yes i believe in evolution- see how you assume i fit into your box)

Your command of the language is formidable…but I stand corrected, you have at least one surprise up your sleeve. I laud you for believing that evolution is reality. And my, what a quick wit…pond scum…stank mold…I’m thinking you didn’t come up with those on your own, you got some help! I am SO put down…I just can’t take it anymore…

your nauseated cause i praise America, and you probably cheer when other dump on it, so that says volumes to your character.

I’m nauseated because you don’t think. You blindly praise America without seeing what is really going on…there’s a big difference between that and praising America. America can be great again some day, and it was at one time long before you or I was born. My father fought in the Solomon Islands in World War 2, and was wounded in action. I am proud of his service, and in his belief in this country. When I see it going terribly wrong, I believe it is my duty, and my right, to try to correct the wrongs. If dumping on America means criticizing America, ok, call it what you will. Critical thought was the foundation of this country, and only critical thought can save us from the people who are driving us, like lemmings, off a cliff. Blind unthinking, uncritical fealty has always brought despotism, and that is where we are going right now.

It isn’t fun seeing the bad in America, it is not enjoyable at all…it’s tragic, cause Americans are good people as a whole…I’ve met so many in my travels. Every American who has died in this illegal war is a tragedy. Every young kid who’s “lit up” a car approaching a roadblock in Iraq, only to find he’s killed an unarmed family, after he’s followed the rules of engagement, is a tragedy. Those kids will never be the same.

Can you even begin to imagine what it is to be a wide-eyed kid trying to do right by your country only to find you’ve killed children and babies because of the position you were put in? Those US soldiers are as much victims as the Iraqi’s they kill. And it is on the head of the man who started this, based on lies and deceit….endless killing, endless tragedies, endless spilling of blood and resources that could be used for positive things instead of this endless reign of terror! So…I DO NOT CHEER WHEN ANYONE CRITICIZES THIS COUNTRY, BUT I DO LISTEN, AND I DON’T SHUT THEM OUT BECAUSE THEY’RE SAYING SOMETHING THAT’S HARD TO HEAR! You know NOTHING of my character, all you have is ignorant presumption.

@ #62166 by Jeanine Molloff on 4/04 at 11:13 am, who said “The Electoral College must be challenged in the Courts”

——————————————

Jeanine,

    If you don’t like the Constitution you are supposed to amend it !! not overrule it, by a different outlandish interpretation !!

  Row vs Wade did just that, and we are still fighting about it 35 yrs later !! cause its a horrible interpretation, its bad law !!

  courts don’t make law, they interpret it !! the people, through the representatives, make law!!

  your “challenge it it court statement” is a perfect example what of whats wrong with the lib outlook today !! “if you disagree, just deny the facts, change the rules, (Florida 2000) change the facts (9/11)  blah blah blah !! so you wish to subvert democracy, that you disagree with,  using the courts

  its okay to be liberal in practice, and maybe even noble, but its ridicules to be liberal in thought process or reason !!

  we are all entitled to our own opinion’s, but we are not entitled to our own facts !! the electoral college is the law of the land, its the fact, challenging it court is denial of those facts,  change the Constitution or deal with it !!

@ #62152 by Zena on 4/04 at 10:14 am

Zena “one” of the reasons we went into Iraq was to spread freedom, !! our Republic is free !! i wont say every democratic model has to be cookiecut all the same !!!

we are a Union of States !! a Republic, that’s a fact !!

the only national election, we have in the USA (the President) has different rules, cause we are picking a leader of the Republic, so we try to give all 50 members some kind of equal weight in that decision, regardless of populations !! we are not electing a leader of one place !! we are electing a leader of 50 places !!

if you don’t like it, and you want it changed, amend the Constitution !! but thats not a easy task, for a good reason !!

@ 62043 by Guntotin Ganglion on 4/03 at 8:03 pm who says so eloquently “Yo, ignoramus knee-jerk o’kaun…What a freakin’ ‘tard!...give it a damn break moron..you are such a knee-jerk o’kaun, it’s nauseating..knee-jerk o’kaun!....that idiots like you..you seem to be a states-rights kind of redneck…So Knee-Jerk O’Kaun, shove your boo-hoos where the sun don’t shine…as long as it meets your redneck ends…Bite me you contrarian son-of-a-bitch”
____

Guntotin Ganglion-

  your post shows your intolerance for a difference of opinion, a knee-jerk opinion, is one made with out thought ??? hhhmmm ??? me thinks you need to look in a mirror !!

  your are related to a monkey, he’s yours, and my, cousin, but, you evolved form pond scum or some stank mold !! (yes i believe in evolution- see how you assume i fit into your box)

  your nauseated cause i praise America, and you probably cheer when other dump on it, so that says volumes to your character.

  yes we live in a republic !!  look it up !! a Democratic Republic made up of 50 States !! so the Electoral Collage and the electoral votes do count !! cause the good wholesome people in the country, don’t want you rotten city folk ruling them, with out this comprise by the founding father, (10 some yrs the revolution-but you Iraq fixed in day) without that comprise, we wouldn’t even have a nation !!

  the government of Fla called the election for Bush, then, the Dem’s and Gore took it to the courts, and you cry-baby’s are upset that Bush fought back, and the court ruled in his favor !!! get over it !!! you lost, your a loser, ha ha ha ha, just like you will be in 08 !!!

there’s a reason 28 out of the last 40 yrs (by 08) have been run by GOP Presidents!! its because, you lib’s are feckless and unfit to lead !! your post point it out better that i could ever describe !!! if you think Obama or Hillary, is going to beat McCain or Thompson, for the post of Commander and Chief, in “War” time ??? well then, you need help !! but by your post, i can see that

-illgramaticus knee o’kaun

A very important and educational piece in favor of true democracy. The following paragraph from this enlightened piece says it all:

“The American way of electing the president is antiquated, impractical and dangerous. It is odd indeed that in 2000, a nation devoted to bringing democracy to the world gave power to the man who actually received 543,895 fewer votes than his opponent.”

To this I would add that the American democracy is not only 300 years old; it is in fact structured upon pre-medieval and medieval Roman politics. A more urgent argument in favor of upgrading it to fit the 21st century. There are detailed studies showing how American democracy is modeled on the ancient Roman model. If anyone would be interested in references, I would be more than glad to provide some.

A great and relevant article, E.J. Dionne! Keep up the good work.

Yes the Electoral College is not democratic.  It was intended that way. It is in fact a method of countering the tyranny of the majority.  In particular, if we repeal this mechanism the USA will completely ignore the the smaller states and concentrate only on 5 states leaving the rest of us completely out of the process at all levels. 

The USA is not a democracy and thank God it is not!  The USA is a Constitutional Federal Republic.  The claim it ever was or is a democracy is not so.  The disrespect of the majority for anyone else will be assured by those yelling for democracy. 

The failure of the Roman Republic was when it became Democratic.  Democracy is the rule of the idiots over the wise.  The system was engineered to force orderly thinking and as it gets dismantled with democracy anarchy looms.

Hurray! I sure hope this has some traction and starts gaining momentum nationally. I’m not sure but with the looming catastrophe the Republicans are looking at in ‘08 doubt they’ll be very receptive to the idea. Even if the President thinks a number in the 25%-35%  range is “a majority of Americans”, when the ballots are counted, there’s no getting around real numbers (unless you’re talking about the economy in which case real numbers are to be ignored at all costs).

I think that a “popular” vote would not only be beneficial to our nation but with how politics are run and *cough* reported these days, it’s nothing but a junior high school popularity contest anyway. Just count how many pundits, *cough* reporters, and polls ask or say something about how much a candidate is “liked”. There are more comments on looks and perceived personality traits that there are on track records or policy positions. A fun game you can play is to make a list of all of those important personality descriptors you hear or see used to describe candidates (simply read ANYTHING written about Hillary and your list will be well on it’s way).

The Electoral College is a remnant of the aristocracy in our so-called ‘democracy.’  I speak to an ‘self appointed aristocracy of wealth,’ and a subsequent thin veneer of actual class.  I disagree that the state’s electoral votes should go to the national winner of the popular vote.  This could disenfranchise voters by arbitrarily assigning electors and disregarding each and every vote.  The Electoral College must be challenged in the Courts, and pressure brought to bear on the Supremes.  Hound them in the grocery.  Hound them in their churches and synagogues.  Stage a picket outside of their tony homes.  Hound their friends and families (children excluded of course).  Make their lives a living hell of community based ostracism.  Perhaps this isn’t exactly what the legal eagles would suggest—but we need to exact some revenge on these would be monarchists!  They don’t deserve any common consideration.  Their interpretation of this constitutional provision should not be the final word.  THE PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE THE FINAL WORD.  WE DO NOT NEED TO MEEKLY ASK FOR OUR RIGHTS—WE MUST DEMAND THEM!  ANYONE WHO STANDS IN THE WAY SHOULD BE TREATED AS TRAITORS TO THE VERY CONCEPT OF DEMOCRACY.  THESE SUPREME COURT ‘JUSTICES’ DO NOT DESERVE EVEN THE MOST CURSORY CONSIDERATIONS—AND THEY CERTAINLY DON’T DESERVE ANY HONORS.  THEY ARE JUST LAWYERS—NOT DEITIES.  IF WE FOLLOWED THE ORIGINAL INTENT OF THE CONSTITUTION AS WRITTEN IN THE 1700’S NO ONE WOULD BE ABLE TO VOTE EXCEPT WHITE MEN WHO OWNED PROPERTY.  THESE OTHER RIGHTS(VOTING RIGHTS FOR AFRICAN-AMERICANS, WOMEN, 18 YEAR OLDS), CAME ABOUT BY PUBLIC OUTRAGE AND PROTEST NOT THE SUPREME COURT.  TIME TO HIT THE STREETS AND DEMAND OUR GOD GIVEN RIGHTS WHICH NO ‘LAWYER’ HAS A RIGHT TO RESCIND.

It should be noted that when our constitution was written everything about our American society was very, very different than now.

We were primarily agrian with a low population, communications over distances were sloow and primitive and the average person had little if any education. Therefore the Founding Fathers did not trust those whom were at times as “the masses” to make intelligent decisions. That, in turn, led to the Electoral College.

It is long overdue that we do away with our antiquated Electoral College and elect our presidents the way that other democracies do, by popular votes.

This is ABSOLUTELY the right thing to do. Even Republicans and especially them that support Bush on the war to intstitute Democracy in Iraq; quite frankly would make fools of themselves to disagree, therefore: if we are a Democracy we should practice those principles that make us a democracy. Instead of muddling the truth by trying to say we are a Republic instead of a Democracy, otherwise, why did we support a war to institute in another country what a people would not want for themselves? Anything less is just a bald-faced lie. And therefore immoral.  “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.”

Popular vote is the only fair way to overcome the “loaded way” we now elect our Presidents!

I was born in Baltimore, grew-up six blocks from the white house and served over 4 years on US Navy submarines.

While I now live in Michigan, my heart is still in Maryland.

Good job Maryland!  Lead the way in this most important endeavor to get the movement for Popular Vote underway.

This is the most encouraging news I have read in a long while. Thanks for the heads-up.

The Terminator Governor of California vetoed such a democracy-promoting bill, even as ‘Every vote cast in Wyoming thus has nearly four times the value of every vote in California.’ Shame on him.

My understanding is that it was the U.S. Supreme Court who eventually handed “The Decider” the 2000 election for President. I’m admittedly not much of a scholar when it comes to Constitutional Law, but I always thought this significant action was supposed to be outside their particular brand of authority.

Either way, you can bet your boots that had the Supreme Court been fairminded to the extent of handing it all to Gore instead (and neveryoumind that he actually won the so-called “popular” vote) the Republican Party would still be boo-hooing in their beer about it these 7 years later.

Guess how you personally felt/still feel about the situation all comes down to whose particular ox was being “Gored” at the time.

You are correct Mariam. We’ve gotten the just result of the entire US education system. This is what it was designed for. Just read what the guys who designed it wrote, if you can still find their books.

Here’s an idea!

If bush can actually say “electoral” correctly, we keep it. If not, we go to the popular vote.

Something tells me The Electoral College would be going bye-bye.

But that would be like taking candy from a baby.

Demand a new, true 9/11 investigation!

Yo, ignoramus knee-jerk o’kaun…I say yes…you say no, I say no, you say yes. The sky is blue…no it’s not…gravity sucks, no, it blows! Evolution…I ain’t related to no damn monkey…no shit Sherlock, they’re too embarrassed to admit a cousin like you! What a freakin’ ‘tard! Jesus wore a flack jacket, and blowed away da bad guys…Jesus said kill thy neighbor and screw the poor out of every penny! Take care of number one, and screw everyone else! God bless America, right or wrong!

It’s worked for 225 years, the greatest country the universe has ever known…give it a damn break moron. Broken friggin’ record spinnin’ round and round and round. If it’s logical, you’ll say it’s not, if it’s illogical, you’ll say it’s not…you are such a knee-jerk o’kaun, it’s nauseating.

True words were spoken when you said we are not a democracy, and yet the moron-in-chief says we are, and that must mean you agree, while not agreeing because someone else agrees…knee-jerk o’kaun! What’s the democracy in Iraq, a republic or whatever the King decides it should be today, with tomorrow being something else as the political wind blows, along with his ass!

The electoral college, in a time of instant communication, is obsolete. It is an anachronism that idiots like you, only because YOUR GUY won, think is cool, but guaranteed, if the shoe were on the other foot, and Kerry had taken the Presidency while losing the popular vote by 3 million, it would have been the crime of the century and you’d be calling for jihad against all liberals. Off with their heads!

Simply put (it’s best to be simple with some people) I would have been just as pissed about Kerry taking it as I was about Junior taking it in 2000…and especially because the Supreme Court stepped in on a states rights issue (you seem to be a states-rights kind of redneck), namely Florida courts deciding the outcome, not imperious federal judges who came down to one vote for the “win” for Junior.

So Knee-Jerk O’Kaun, shove your boo-hoos where the sun don’t shine, and let’s see how the next election goes, or should I say, the next electoralling, cause there’s no election, only the electoral college and the delegates can vote as they please, they do not have to vote per the election. That’s fair…yahh, in 1789 it was, ooops, we’ve been so great for so long we shouldn’t change anything…if so, why has King George shitcanned every single US ratified international treaty he has ever came across, when it clearly states in the Constitution (a word he cannot spell, much less understand) that international treaties are THE LAW OF THE LAND! It’s keep it like it has been forever, as long as it meets your redneck ends, but when something’s in the way, shitcan it and steamroll over it cause it ain’t convenient.

Bite me you contrarian son-of-a-bitch.

The current all-or-nothing method of selecting electors for each state also effectively disenfranchises the huge number of people who do not live in swing states. If the state you live in is heavily red or heavily blue, then your vote essentially does not matter.

Another workaround that has been discussed is proportional selection of electors for each state, e.g. if 55% of the voters in a given state vote for candidate A and 45% for candidate B, then 55% of the electors from that state would be for candidate A and 45% of the electors from that state would be for candidate B. This would clearly be better than the current system, and allay concerns of those from smaller states (by protecting their disproportionate representation), but the winner being chosen by a national count is definitely the only way to go for true democracy. A republic is an outdated notion from a time when the majority of citizens were illiterate.

We should push for the legislatures of each of our states to enact a law like the one in Maryland.

“Demockery” is the right word for what we have in this country. The Constitution is nothing but toilet paper to George, Dick and Karl. Just what the hell is holding up their impeachment - I’d really like to know.

This country started out very small, the center of the United States was Washington D.C. now the capital is not in the center anymore, it is called southeast, this country is twice the size it was back in the 18th century, also back then not all people were educated because there were less schools, teachers were barely out of high school and were teachers.

What is the problem of taking a few days to count the vote, the answer does not have to be on election night, the system was set up to allow the elected president time to get to Washington because the roads were not very passable back in the 18th century.

Why was the election stolen?  because Bush knew all he had to do was win Fla. and that deal was done long before election night.

Maargaret from Vancouver, Washington

With the popular vote and no electoral college, it means a handful of states could rule the country and effectively disenfranchise the citizens of 40+ of our 50 states. It would be the tyranny of the majority rather than a giovernment which addresses the needs of all citizens, including those who live in smaller states.  Four or five states could potentially demand that all federal attention and funding serve only them while the other 45 states are ignored.  Do we want candidates that are running only to serve a handful of states, or those that will serve the whole nation?

The Founders of this great country were much smarter than anyone working at Truthdig or any trolls prowling these forums and if the superiority of the electoral college system is beyond your comprehension, then quit complaining and get back to studying, as you have much to learn, young grasshoppers.

I would think that correcting the voting procedures and counting problems should be our first priority.

Don’t count on the Electoral College to bail us out. We need to act on our own behalf. The Congress no longer represents the people-hasn’t for some time. It’s who counts the votes that counts. The office of the president is still determined by the shadow government-the same folks who orchestrated 9-11.

Where were my votes ? I’d never voted for no-brainers Bush/Cheney twice but how come they were selected ? There’re pickpocketers in plain days !

We are not a democracy, we are a “Republic” built up of 50 democracies (the states)

the Federal Government was created to protect the greater good, by pooling together the States, to build a “military” !! not to create the behemoth, monster, socialist, micro-manager, we now call our Fed. Government !!

the electoral college was set up to give the smaller states, ( Wyoming ) some equal ground with the larger cities, (NY) so that the large cities, (Imperial Capitols) could not take over the country !!

its worked for 225 yrs, we have the greatest country the world has ever known, so, boo, hoo, hoo,  Gore won the popular count, but lost the electoral vote !!  maybe if he carried his home state, he would have won the election, but he didn’t, (that says volumes for those who knew him best voted against him)

illgramaticus knee o’kaun

Wait a minute. If the popular vote is deemed the law of the land, would not a few states control the election? If the top 5 most populated states have a landslide for one particular person could that not corrupt the system? Yes the electoral college has pissed me off at times, but is this really a good answer?
If I had my way there would be no primaries, just one election with all qualified candidates on one ballot in November.
What is a qualified candidate? This is the fly in the ointment, to be reconciled by better brains than mine.
And we need a publicly financed way of electing candidates rather than the corporation controlled elections of now. How I wish the steady drum-beat of public financing was the salient call of the press.

Albert…..

Direct elections will not immune us from terminal stupidity.

I am all for it!  The Electoral College is an example of what is wrong within our democracy. How can we as a people accept an outcome that does not represent the will of the people?  The popular vote is the only way.  By the way, I didn’t hear of an Electoral College system set up in Bagdad.

Go ahead and recount the country!  In 2000, it would have been worth the wait!

This popular vote idea would encourage Republicans to eliminate voter fraud in the blue states as well as the close ones but, I love the idea, anyway.

Now, if the internet (secure enough for my money - secure enough for my vote) were used for voting and creating election transparency, we’d really have something! 

Paper ballots would be fine if they weren’t run through a machine but, waiting is so hard!

Hitler was elected by popular vote….

Our liberties and constitutional form of a democratic republic seem at risk due to many actions by the current administration.

The invasion and occupation of Iraq has dovetailed with serious corruption of different kinds here at home.

The American people are waking up and taking action ... but will it be enough?

For more on this, see:

“Intelligence, psychology and human heart: All are needed for success in war and peace”

PopulistAmerica.com
Populist Party of America
March 31, 2007

http://www.populistamerica.com/intelligence_psychology_and_human_heart

And I say Yes! to the America of 1776!