gunto says: “It’s time for a Constitutional amendment to remove the Electoral College”

well i might disagree, but i do AGREE that is the way to make any, and all, changes to our laws of the land, if you don’t like them !!

for interpreting a convoluted decision out of an existing amendments that all know have nothing to do with original amendment (Abortion and the 14th amendment?)is no way to run a county,

for yrs libs who lose at the ballot box have been subverting the will of the people with there judges!!

PS- i will get to the other comments soon,

I want to finish off here, since I allowed myself to wander wildly off-topic in a long running rant with Jeff Badura, with a comment on the article’s original intent.

The Electoral College is, in it’s current configuration, neither democratic, nor republican in it’s approach and/or results. With the reality of Electoral delegates being, that they can vote any way they choose, it is clear that the Electoral process is a sham and a perversion of it’s original intent. Without accountability to the voters wishes, the Electoral College is just another example of corruption in government and governmental institutions. The results of the general elections for President, are thrown out, and a tiny group of electors are brought together to vote however they choose, with no reference whatsoever to the general election required. The Electoral College re-action is the only election that means anything, and it’s results have nothing to do with the general election. If the system required, and enforced adherence to the results of the general election, that would be different, but that is not the case. Basically, there is no need for the general election at all, so if this is to go on, just save time and money and cancel the general election for President, and hand it over to the Electoral College and let them choose, because they are the one’s who do the choosing, not “We The People”. None of us outside of that institution have any say in these things anyway.

It’s time for a Constitutional amendment to remove the Electoral College. Time for the tyranny of the majority, as opposed to the tyranny of the few. Time to take total randomness out of the equation, and replace it with the actual will of the people. And any arguments regarding equal representation based on candidates focusing on key election states is retarded. There’s this new thing, called the “Internets” that makes a moot point of all that. We live in a time of virtually instant communications globally, so I think it’s time to let the horse and buggy methodology of the Electoral College go the way of the horse and buggy.

#65053 by Jeff Badura

@ Gunto

Vietnam was battle in the larger “Cold War”, yes we won the Cold War !! the Soviet Union does not exist any more !! eastern Europe is free !!! we won WW III

the big picture gunto !!

Curious. Guess this has to do with your being a “big picture” kinda guy. Now, in the neo-world order, battles are wars, and wars are battles. Guess that’s the way it is now in the Bizarro Neo-World. I would guess you’re a believer in the “Domino Theory” and that our “win” in Vietnam stopped the domino’s from tumbling?

Ya, the Soviet Union no longer exists, but their thermonuclear weapons do, along with far more reliable delivery systems than we have. And your disagreement notwithstanding, the real meaning of superpower is thermonuclear weaponry and the delivery systems to put them on target. Without those, our economic “superpower” wouldn’t have the real existential muscle behind it.

The reality is, the breakup of the Soviet Union made the problem of nuclear weapons proliferation a hundred times worse. Most, if not all of the weapons grade uranium and plutonium out there, came from either the US, or the USSR. When the USSR brokeup, that created several new nuclear superpowers, like Ukraine, Belarus, Soviet Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Turkmenistan...not to mention Russia itself! The reality of the breakup is akin to blowing a Scud missile apart...it’s no longer one piece coming at you, now it’s dozens of pieces coming at you. This ain’t Star Wars, the Death Star doesn’t just vanish in a puff of cinematic special effects...it’s still there, just in a different configuration!

Several of the ex-Soviet states did eventually renounced nuclear weapons, but that doesn’t address the years they did have Soviet weapons and were unable to control the weapons in terms of profiteering through smuggling. And this idiotic administration has done next to nothing to get control of the nuclear materials that we do know about, and can do something about. Basically, they’re spending too much time and money in Iraq to be concerned, or capable financially, of doing anything about paltry little items like nuclear weapons grade materials proliferation and smuggling.

Good luck with your permanent state of “big picture” neo-war. And gosh-a-golly, too bad about the millions of innocent men, women, children, babies and the unborn that you and the neo-CONS are going to kill...but it’s all worth it, cause sometimes you just have to break a few million eggs to make a “freedom” omelette, huh? Children, eggs, what’s the difference!? At least when we cluster bomb them to death, they won’t be beheaded...they’ll be humanely blown into M&M;sized pieces instead! It’s all good!

@ Gunto

Vietnam was battle in the larger “Cold War”, yes we won the Cold War !! the Soviet Union does not exist any more !! eastern Europe is free !!! we won WW III

the big picture gunto !!

#64894 by Jeff Badura

Gunto ??

your losing me ??? remember the crimes of the past are no excuse for paralysis in the future ??

Here we go again, making excuses for our criminal activities in the world. So how far back in the past do these activities have to be to make them moot, a second, a minute, an hour? Is a day far enough? You need to define your terms.

If we overthrow a country today and slaughter it’s people, is it not a crime tomorrow? What’s the statute of limitations on crimes against humanity, like say, the death squads that Reagan unleashed on El Salvador? I’d suggest doing a search on the term “Salvador Option”...it was used in Central America by Reagan to butcher little brown people who had the effrontery to question American hegemony in the region, and it’s been used in Iraq. Negroponte was one of the villains who unleashed the death squads for Reagan. Think School of the Americas, which is also known by some as the School of Assassins.

Nam should not apply here !! that was WW III, we won that war, and this is WW IV, and were still fighting it !! and could loose it !!!

Apparently I’ve lost you. You sent a quote by MLK that for you, indicated he was pro-war. This speech is to establish that he was nothing of the kind. It wasn’t about Vietnam, it was about the general topic of pro-war versus anti-war. MLK was in the latter category.

And we won in Vietnam? That’s got to be one of the victories I missed! I seem to recall we lost that one...guess I’m just a “defeatist”, huh? And it was WW3? Hmmmm...which alternative history book are you reading? I think this alternative view also allows for a permanent state of world war...which is what you’re advocating.

#64678 by Jeff Badura

One more short comment for now.

I am endlessly fascinated by the incredibly hypocritical double-standards that Repugnicans are capable of. Spend a penny on a social program, and they’ll scream bloody murder. But spend a trillion dollars on wars that can only be characterized as questionable, at best, and it’s, no problemo, spend as much as you like, we won’t ask why, how or where!

One of the biggest problems with war spending of this sort is that it does nothing for this countries internal needs, for the countries infrastructure for instance. And this administrations complete myopia in regards to war, has left us wildly vulnerable in so many other areas, like the ports for instance! How many thousands of containers come into this country that aren’t inspected? And even if we could inspect them all, who’s gonna pay for it? The ports are an area of vast vulnerability that has been totally ignored by our War President, and with his borrow and spend policies in support of war, hell, there’s no money left for anything else anyway!

Or, how about our electrical grids, which are antiquated and feeble, and likely to fail at any moment. And if they do fail, we’re in for a world of hurt, because our entire way of life is now completely dependent on electrical power. Remember the blackout in NYC three years ago? That can happen at any time, to any of our cities. Talk about vulnerability, this is serious shit. Our electricity goes out, everything stops...everything. Business shuts down, the government shuts down...everything stops.

Our rail system is in miserable shape, funding in that area is virtually non-existent. Security on the rails is virtually non-existent. Amtrack is a disaster...and only getting worse. My wife and I took a long trip on Amtrack a little over three years ago, and there was ZERO security on the trains we traveled on. Zero, as in NONE.

If you want to look at just one of our weaknesses to terrorism, look at the rail system, which goes through the hearts of every city in America. Nothing has been done to shore up the massive hole this represents in our infrastructure security. But we go merrily on spending a 100 billion dollars or more a year on Iraq...money spent that does nothing for this country, other than give people like you a warm fuzzy, thinking your safe. Think again. A program of only kicking the shit out of other countries to protect ourselves, is like fastening your seatbelts on a plane after the wings have come off.

Are you catching my drift here? Is any of this getting through?

#64678 by Jeff Badura

SOME QUOTS

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -Martin Luther King Jr.,

This one works in both directions. Injustice anywhere, like in Iraq. The injustice of a half a million dead innocents in Iraq, who never would have died under Saddam. Or call it min 61728/max 67703 as reported by IBC, which is backed up by direct evidence, i.e. bodies actually counted. Either way, those are horrendous numbers of innocent dead, especially children, and in many cases, entire families. Sounds like injustice to me.

“It should be the policy of the US to seek to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace the regime “ President Bill Clinton, “Iraq Liberation Act” on October 31, 1998

Wars waged for the purpose of regime change are expressly forbidden by the Geneva Conventions. Those are a set of laws that this country signed, specifically dealing with rules of warfare, and conduct of war once waged. If laws are not obeyed, why have laws? And quoting Bill Clinton? You still think I’m a fan of Bill Clinton? I’d have impeached his ass too if he’d tried what Bush has. Basically, all they had on Clinton was a blow-job that he lied about, cause after spending 50 million to get him, if they’d have had anything else, they would have used it. Had he followed through on this quote though, there would have been grounds for impeachment. Look it up in the Constitution, in Article VI. Treaties signed by the United States are the “SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND”. The language is explicit. They’re not to be tossed on the ash heap because they make things difficult...being difficult is the reason for laws!

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.” -John F. Kennedy, Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961

A very broad and sweeping statement that can be interpreted in a multitude of ways. And, JFK was a bastard too, so don’t even go there.

Without justice, there can be no peace. He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it.” -Martin Luther King

Think about this quote in regards to the possibility that what Bush has done is evil? Entertain the possibility for a second, even though you don’t believe it. The quote works in that direction as well.

Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. -Ronald Reagan

I’ll let that one by St Ronald the Evil Empire Slayer go. You don’t want to know what I think of him. He earned impeachment, but was only saved from it by all the Repugnican shills who formed up around him when it became clear he was going down if they didn’t. HW was the real power behind that throne...and he was the only one in that vile administration who told the Senate to shove it when they subpoenaed him in the Iran/Contra case. And the Senate backed down. I wonder who he threatened to have killed? He was CIA director after all, and it wouldn’t have taken much for him to make family members disappear.

Gunto ??

your losing me ??? remember the crimes of the past are no excuse for paralysis in the future ??

Nam should not apply here !! that was WW III, we won that war, and this is WW IV, and were still fighting it !! and could loose it !!!

#64678 by Jeff Badura

A FEW MORE THOUGHTS-

us Neocons might be called fascist? by the left, but in reality, were intellectuals, who have thought long and hard about the problems we face.

Being an intellectual who’s thought long and hard about the problems we face doesn’t mean you’re not a fascist. That is a non sequitur, they aren’t related. Mussolini was an intellectual, as were many of the Nazi high level people, like Joseph Goebbels, the inventor of The BIG Lie...which states that if you tell a big enough whopper, people believe it, as a matter of fact, the bigger the lie, the more likely people are to believe it...kind of like saying we had to attack Iraq!

To me, the basic meaning of being a fascist is about the joining of industry and government in a partnership of war, violence and brutality...at a hefty profit. That is where this country is now, with the greatest amount of money in our annual Federal budget going to pay for the war industry. And virtually every congressperson and senator is on their payroll. The government has been for sale for a long time now, and the ones who own them and pull their strings, are the war profiteers.

Fascism however, is politically correct in this country, so many don’t see it for what it is. Just because the government isn’t imprisoning massive numbers of US citizens (wait a minute...they are...this country has the highest prison population in the world, and most of the crimes are victimless, aka drug related...and there are big corporations making lots of money running the prisons), doesn’t mean it’s not a fascist country.

The entire world knows what we are, because they’ve paid the price of our international fascism, in their lives and fortunes. We have done terrible things in the world, and all you can say is, bygones. And in saying that, you condemn people who have been wronged by us as simply evil and destined to be erased by this country. In human affairs, bad things don’t happen in a vacuum, there are always reasons, even if theyr’e sick and twisted. Sometimes the people who do sick and twisted things were forced into doing those things because they were wronged and powerless to right those wrongs. One reason why people blow themselves up.

And if you want the final evidence of just how “liberal” I am (which I do NOT think I am), then I should recount one of the first things that I thought after seeing the 2nd plane hit the WTC (a friend called us after she’d found out about the 1st plane). I thought, what kind of hell does a person have to live in to be capable of such cold, calculated brutality? After that, the sheer horror of the potential of those attacks came into focus. We were very lucky that tens of thousands of people didn’t die there. The first responders made a huge difference there, and many of them gave their lives.

And, to finish this thought, the Bush administration’s EPA chief of the time, Christine Todd Whitman should be up on criminal charges! She issued a directive that the pile at WTC was safe, when in fact it was NOT safe, and she knew it. Many of the first responders who worked on the pile now have serious respiratory health problems, and several have died as a result, and more will be dying in the coming years. My mother died fighting for breath, because of emphysema, and I wouldn’t wish that death on anyone. Bush and his minions pushed for that clearance, to make it look as if it were safe, and to save money on the equipment that was required to protect the health of those workers. All politics...they were, and are, expendable.

Just one of hundreds of reasons Bush should be impeached and removed from office. Perhaps the only way that will ever happen though is if he’s caught having sex with a subordinate, and then lying about it! Then he’d be impeached!

#64678 by Jeff Badura

Since you chose to quote Martin Luther King here’s a speech he gave one year to the day before his assassination…

DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR.: If we do not stop our war against the people of Vietnam immediately, the world will be left with no other alternative than to see this as some horrible, clumsy and deadly game we have decided to play. The world now demands a maturity of America that we may not be able to achieve. It demands that we admit that we have been wrong from the beginning of our adventure in Vietnam, that we have been detrimental to the life of the Vietnamese people. The situation is one in which we must be ready to turn sharply from our present ways. In order to atone for our sins and errors in Vietnam, we should take the initiative in bringing a halt to this tragic war and set a date that we will remove all foreign troops from Vietnam in accordance with the 1954 Geneva Agreement.

Part of our ongoing commitment might well express itself in an offer to grant asylum to any Vietnamese who fears for his life under the new regime, which included the Liberation Front. Then we must make what reparations we can for the damage we have done. We must provide the medical aid that is badly needed, making it available in this country, if necessary. Meanwhile, we in the churches and synagogues have a continuing task: while we urge our government to disengage itself from a disgraceful commitment, we must continue to raise our voices and our lives if our nation persists in its perverse ways in Vietnam. We must be prepared to match actions with words by seeking out every creative method of protest possible.

These are the times for real choices and not false ones. We are at the moment when our lives must be placed on the line if our nation is to survive its own folly. Every man of humane convictions must decide on the protest that best suits his convictions, but we must all protest.

Now, there is something seductively tempting about stopping there and sending us all off on what in some circles has become a popular crusade against the war in Vietnam. I say we must enter that struggle, but I wish to go on now to say something even more disturbing.

The war in Vietnam is but a symptom of a far deeper malady within the American spirit, and if we ignore this sobering reality, we will find ourselves organizing “clergy and laymen concerned” committees for the next generation. They will be concerned about Guatemala and Peru. They will be concerned about Thailand and Cambodia. They will be concerned about Mozambique and South Africa. We will be marching for these and a dozen other names and attending rallies without end, unless there is a significant and profound change in American life and policy.

correction gunto-

PBS 12 hr special on all week, is “Frontline, America at the Crossroads,” i do hope you have a tivo or some way to check it out, i have been very impressed and very pleased with the fair and balanced and nuanced look it is giving, at the mess we are all in!!

A FEW MORE THOUGHTS-

us Neocons might be called fascist? by the left, but in reality, were intellectuals, who have thought long and hard about the problems we face.

SOME QUOTS

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -Martin Luther King Jr.,

“It should be the policy of the US to seek to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace the regime “ President Bill Clinton, “Iraq Liberation Act” on October 31, 1998

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.” -John F. Kennedy, Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961

Without justice, there can be no peace. He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it.” -Martin Luther King

Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. -Ronald Reagan

IllGramaticus Knee O’Kaun

Come on, Gunto,

Bin Ladden, picked the Saudis for US consumption, not for just you !! but for all of us, so we could blame them !! and many have !! i cant pin-point exactly were I’ve heard that, but i have over and over, probably several places, the ABC 9/11 movie that Clinton was crying about, every 9/11 anniversary there’s more and more documentaries about the incident, and i watch them all, there has been a score of books on the topic, they know how it was planned, and done !! this week, PBS is doing 12 hours on American Frontiers (2 hrs a night all week) about the “War on Terror” for instance do you know Ramsey went to Bin Ladden for backing and muscle, he wanted to hit the nuke power plants in CT and Jersey, that bookend N.Y.C., but Bin Ladden Vetoed him ??? told them to hit the Capitol and the White House instead !! the Pentagon was a 2nd target, cause they over flew the capitol !!  Bin Ladden knew that hitting a nuke power plant would be the end of his movement and total World War would ensue if they did that !!!  but, will the next guy be so smart ??? Bin Ladden is no bodies fool, and underestimating our enemies, is dangerous !! No, I’m not defending the Saudis !! their scum !! i hate them, but one step at a time Gunto, Rome wasn’t built in a day !!

Yes Saddam would have been that dangerous, and his sons too, with time, they were an impediment to future peace !! and the world, and the UN, is way to feckless to do squat, about anything !! my hope is that 75 yrs from now the Middle East is as cowardly and liberal as Europe is today, but that’s a pipe-dream, i know !!  we are alone Gunto, we are the centuries manning the guard-tower’s of freedom, for the rest of the world has forsaken themselves !! the Islamics will chew-up and spit-out the Europeans (and the lib’s of this country too) !! I’m sad to say, just look a Britain’s cowardly response, to Iran last week !!! to see what i mean that was a disgrace !!! I’m ashamed for the Brits !! but then again I’m ashamed for us all !! 

IllGgramaticus Knee O’Kaun

PS- you made an Roman analogy a while back, the Roman Empire lost its way (after 800 yrs) because it became to enamored with its wealth and comfort, they ignored the dangers at the borders and allowed the rest of the world to catch up with them militarily and culturally, they would rather buy off the Huns, the Vandals, the Goths than destroy them ,and they were eventually destroyed by the neighbors that they looked down on !! we are far from there yet, and its not a fair analogy for we are not a Fascist Empire, and the human race has come a far way (except the Islamic Radicals) but libs got it ass-backwards the Roman did not lose their Empire, cause they were Warriors or War like!!  they lost their Empire when they stopped being Warriors, became soft and ignored the threats at their borders !!

May I suggest a swifter way to civilize our presidential elections? Will some civic organization, TruthDig for instance, invite its readers/members to ask presidential candidates the following question: “Assuming you would won the electoral college vote but lose the popular vote, would you still accept to become president?” The moment a serious candidate answers “no,” what will the others do? Won’t it spread like a wildfire? Wouldn’t this be the de facto end of the electoral college farce?

#64439 by Jeff Badura

Too much to respond to in one posting. Part 1…

Man, I just have to say, you’re swimming in the deep end of the nut pool. Sorry, but that’s my honest opinion.

>he picked the Saudis, so that you would react the way your reacting !!

Bin Laden did it for me! Wow…I had no idea. He certainly is one devious lil’ ol’ terrorist.

>Bin Ladden hand picked the Saudis to do that job

Ok, your gonna have to provide the source for that claim. I’ve not heard that, and considering how little is known about how the deed was done, that seems highly suspect as a claim that can be backed up with facts.

And man, your defending the Saudi’s, the Wahabi’s who public stone and behead people. They’re at least modern about the stonings, basically, they drug the perp, and then fill a skip loader with stones, and then dump the stones on the drugged individual. They also cover it on TV. I’m sure there’s a brisk business in DVD’s of the executions. Got some great allies there dude.

Are you really incapable of making the leap of logic regarding Saudi complicity and the total lack of evidence of involvement by Iraq in 9/11? Really?? Truly???

And if Saddam was so dangerous to the entire world, who (outside of Iraq) had he attacked in the dozen years between Gulf War I and 9/11? Oh, that’s right, no one. But he wanted too!!! And that’s a good enough reason to attack any country and murder it’s innocent population, because their government (that murdered them as well) wanted to attack the world, but had no capability whatsoever. Talk about a paper tiger.

>if the attacks we and British foiled last summer, would have went off??  all >the attackers would have been English born Muslims, so if you expand on >your logic than we would and should attack England ??? of coarse not !! >its not nations we are war with, its radical Islam, and they exist in almost >every nation !! but there born from the Middle East.  so yes “we do what >we can do” first Iraq, because of the many problems of the last 20 yrs >caused by Saddam !! then Libya surrendered, now we have to finish Iraq >and by doing so probably will have to bomb Iran, either way Iran cannot be >allowed to acquire nukes !! then Syria and Sudan will have to be dealt with >militarily too !! hopefully in time the Saudis will liberalize if they don’t then >that’s another problem to deal with at a latter date !!

By my logic, we never would have attacked Iraq, or Saudi Arabia at all. I don’t blame entire nations for the actions of a literal handful of people of any nationality. Now Afghanistan, that made sense to attack as a result of the Taliban support for al Qaeda, but the rest, complete and utter brain-dead nonsense.

Let’s look at the word WAR, shall we?

As described by Merriam-Webster’s 11th Collegiate Dictionary, the number one description is as follows…

1 a (1) : a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations

Note the words, STATES OR NATIONS. War is about states and/or nations, not extremist groups, or individuals...those are called fights, not wars.

Man, I like that we can be congenial, but you are truly delusional. Read your words, you’re talking about world domination. You’re saying it’s ok for the United States to attack countries because we need to make the world like us, cause if they aren’t like us, they’re trying to kill us. You’ve even got a list…Iraq, Iran, (you forgot Afghanistan…we dropped the ball there), Libya (if they resist us again), Syria (our partners in extreme rendition…guess they didn’t torture well enough) and Sudan. And do you really think the Saudi’s are going to “liberalize”, whatever the hell that means? Just put em on the list dude! Then of course, there’s Turkey, Pakistan, Egypt (Atta was from Egypt), India, Somalia, Ethiopia, UAE (one was on the plane), Yemen…all Muslim countries will go on the chopping block. This is paranoid schizophrenia...of a very expensive variety, both in dollars and in lives.

Gunto

Bin Ladden hand picked the Saudis to do that job, for that reason you have stated, he was trying to drive a wedge between the USA and Saudi Arabia, it was his wish and plan to have us cut off relations with the Kingdom, and then we would be facing off against them too as well as Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya, his plan was to have us strike back for a short while, get tired, then leave the Middle East completely, (what the Dem’s are up too today ) then he, or his kind, could wage the religious civil war against the moderates without our interference !! look the problem we have is not with bordered nations, it is with a cultural movement, called Islamic Extremism so Bin Ladden who is one of the gang leaders in this movement, could have picked many different kind of nationalist if he wished !! he picked the Saudis, so that you would react the way your reacting !!

if the attacks we and British foiled last summer, would have went off??  all the attackers would have been English born Muslims, so if you expand on your logic than we would and should attack England ??? of coarse not !! its not nations we are war with, its radical Islam, and they exist in almost every nation !! but there born from the Middle East.  so yes “we do what we can do” first Iraq, because of the many problems of the last 20 yrs caused by Saddam !! then Libya surrendered, now we have to finish Iraq and by doing so probably will have to bomb Iran, either way Iran cannot be allowed to acquire nukes !! then Syria and Sudan will have to be dealt with militarily too !! hopefully in time the Saudis will liberalize if they don’t then that’s another problem to deal with at a latter date !!

for the Islamic extremist will use the WMD’s once then get their hands on them, we cannot use diplomacy on the Islamic zealots for they have already stated there demands : 1) leave all countries on the middle east. 2 )stop supporting Israel. 3) convert to Islam and follow Sharia law. !! maybe we could do #1 and #2 but the third is a non starter, no, its Jihad, and they have declared it, only killing off the leaders and changing the more belligerent governments of the region one by one will give us a lasting peace for our grandchildren !!

face the facts , they hate us cause were not Muslims !! if the region isn’t socially modernized, the world is doomed !! its not fear, its reason !!! the nexus of WMD’s mixed with the Islamic Radical suicide-cult religion is a recipe for total destruction !!

9/11 was a just a preview, and if we don’t heed the warning, then shame on us all !!
they say they want to kill you ???  leaving Iraq before we stabilize the country will only make things worse !! and leaving the government of Iran to build nukes, will only make things worse too !!

what do you plan to do long term about 9/11?? kill Bin Ladden and say “the war is over” then 10 yrs from now. and NY gets nuked??? by the next group? who is to blame???

the president has the obligation to protect us !! long term !! not one attack at a time, but the big picture, long term !! libs live in a vacuum !!! the president doesn’t have that option !!

after 9/11 he was obligated to act, and Saddam was the 2nd on the list to go !! there are more to come in the future too !

its a mess Gunto, but one we must face !!

#64060 by Jeff Badura

Issue #2 - facing the evils of the world.

An update. Depending on who you prefer to believe, DOD’s budget for 2008 is something like a trillion dollars. The budget that is quoted is 456 billion for 2007, and 501 billion for 2008. But these numbers don’t reflect a great many things that DOD spends money on, like Iraq and Afghanistan for instance. Or, veterans benefits. Or, nuclear weapons development. Lots of things that aren’t addressed in the “official”, politically correct, budget. I’m convinced that at the very least, it’s fair to double whatever is quoted as the DOD budget of any given year...and that is most likely very conservative.

That said, the amount of money they spend each second of everyday of the year, is more like 30,000 dollars. Just a way of putting the “cost” of doing war business in perspective. Considering how much we have spent over the last decade (including the Clinton years), the claim that Saddam was a danger to us is laughable. If he was a threat to us in any meaningful way, then it doesn’t matter how much we spend, cause we’ll never be able to spend enough. Especially notable when one considers how easily the terrorists of 9/11, all 19 of them, breached our system. Throwing money at a problem like this rarely, if ever, fixes the problem. Working smart, rather than just expensive, seems a better way, especially when sending such a massive debt to future generations.

And by the way, slightly off-topic, why didn’t we attack Saudi Arabia after 9/11? If we could make the claim that a country that had nothing to do with it was a threat, then why wasn’t the country that had everything to do with it (16 out 19 of the hijackers were Saudi), a threat? I’d like a straight answer on that one...and make it one that doesn’t just say they’re our allies, cause with allies like that, we don’t need enemies. And by the way, you do know our allies, the Wahabi’s of Saudi Arabia. believe in public stonings and public beheadings with dull swords, right?

And why is Osama not an issue again? Saying he’s not an issue, by your logic, since you compare all this to WW2, is like saying getting Hitler was not an issue...or as long as we stop the Nazi’s, it’s cool if Hitler walks away. Seems a bit of a stretch, no?

Sorry...I said I’d keep it to one issue!

Previous postings have worried that the abolition of the Electoral College would result in a handful of states controlling the country through a ‘dictatorship of the majority.’ This is a false argument, as the Bill of Rights protects individual and minority rights (at least prior to W and the Republicrats dismantling it).  Along with the abolition of the electoral college would be proportional representation and instant runoff voting.  The two party duopoly would be GONE!  We would then have a beginning to a true democracy.  Personally, I don’t need the elitist ‘upper crust’ deciding for me--I can do that myself.  Some of these concerns are nothing more than frightened apparatchniks determined to maintain the status quo of our pseudo-democratic republic.  Those of you who argue that the law is sacrosanct need to immigrate to the dictatorship in China.  I prefer to fight for my rights--defending the principles of true democracy.

to the many comments by Gunto,

our main argument has been about the War, the war on terror the war in Iraq, why we are fighting it, or why we should not be fighting it ??

we can agree on several facts, 1) America is a rich, gluttonous, culture, 2) many of the problems we face in the world today can be considered “blow-back” for past deeds good or bad !! 3) we are currently in a war 4) the nation is very politically divided

so the question we have, and disagree on? is how to fix these problems ?? 

when i find fault in the lib PC way of wanting our nation to fight this war you said “This is incorrect, at least from where this “liberal” is standing. I don’t make excuses for, or placate terrorists, or bad guys around the globe.”!!

well maybe “you” don’t Gunto, but “most libs” do !! this attitude is not conducive with winning the war !! the “my way or the highway” you complain about ?? again, is not a fair assessment for Bush was elected President, thee congress gave him the resolution, it has to now be his way, that’s the way our system works !! we cant win this war having congress deciding who and were we fight it by the bi-weekly poll results they get!!

you complain about how much it costs ??? what is the cost of failure ?? as i pointed out we are a fifthly rich culture!! i think we can afford the sacrifice even though many do not have the stomach for sacrifice (the point of my last post)

we agree we are at war, we agree that it partly our own fault !! can we agree that its important for future generation of the human race to defeat the Islamic Extremist ?? or do you think we can live together in peace if we just surrender to them over and over again until our way of life is lost ??

i for one, have one driving force, that promotes me to post here, and other places and discuss such matters with people of different opinions !! the reason is, to try to make some headway with those who have that different opinions, to show them the trouble we are in !!

you agree with the trouble, you said so, but i have heard “no” ZERO remedy for the problem from you, other that honest complaints about our system, and country, way of life and history, and so forth !!

you stated “I fear that it may well end one day soon, especially if another terrorist attack occurs on US soil. I’m afraid the Constitution is so fragile now, that it won’t survive the hit. And that will be the end of the United States as we’ve known it. That said, I am glad that the US is still a place of freedom of speech, and I truly hope it remains so.”

i tend to agree with you, and I’m trying prevent the next attack, as Bush has been trying to do, yet many on the far left believe he planned the first attack ?? how do we on the right reason with such foolishness?? 

after the war is over, then that is the time to reflect on how we got there, to fix blame were it is deserved, to make amends if we were wrong, but only after the war is over, and we have prevailed !! to do so in the middle of the fight is unproductive and dangerous !! the next two presidents (minimum) will be fighting this war, regardless of party, we owe them the support they need to win this war !!

illgramaticus knee okaun

PS- 1) we don’t torture as a policy, its against the law 2) the The American Dream is (not) a sad fantasy 3) if we helped Saddam stay in power in the 80’s, we then have as responsibility to remove him if he becomes a monster,

#64060 by Jeff Badura

the Dem’s, liberals, progressives. or “left” of our nations mean well, but they want to make excuses and placate the terrorists, or bad guys around the globe, blaming ourselves,when its not our fault, for all the worlds ills cause they are quasi-religiously apposed to punitive action (war). never willing to make the hard choices of what to do, about past ills and looming disasters to come, more willing to try to build some wall or institutions (more bloated bureaucracies ) to combat the problems, with the least amount of personnel sacrifice !!  even resenting those wanting to face the evils of the world, ( neocons )

Issue #2 - facing the evils of the world.

This is incorrect, at least from where this “liberal” is standing. I don’t make excuses for, or placate terrorists, or bad guys around the globe. What I do think is, there’s more than one way to skin a cat, to quote a sick old saying. However, the “neocons”, whoever and whatever they are, say there’s only one way or we all die. Bush’s “my way or the highway” mentality is wrong, simplistic and self-serving. There must be a dozen ways the attack on 9/11 could have been dealt with, but none of those ways come close to being as expensive or damaging to our overall laws and philosophy as The Deciders Global War on Abstract Nouns (GWOAN).

His My Way method actually plays directly into al Qaeda’s hands, in that it is well known that one of the prime methods Osama employs is to get superpowers to spend themselves to death. He did it to the Soviet Union, and he’s in the process of doing it to the USA. We are deeper in debt than ever before, and only going deeper. The DOD spends approximately 20,000 dollars a second, 365 days a year, 24 hours a day. That is a shitpile of money! Not going into detail on my taxes, but let’s just say that the DOD eats my yearly federal taxes in about a quarter of a second!

This insane level of spending has to stop, and another method other than total bankruptcy through endless war needs to be found to deal with this threat. And understand, I agree it’s a threat, and your opinion notwithstanding, I’m not tucking in terrorists at night and singing them a bedtime song. They need to be stopped, because they are doing evil, however, when the actions we take are as evil, and even more shortsighted, it’s time for a change.

Torture is one area where we’ve gone over the cliff and are now in freefall. Our embrace of torture as a tool against terrorism makes us no better than they are, for that matter, in one sense we’re worse, since we say we don’t do that, or as Mr. Bush said “Americans don’t do that’. That was a lie. There are several Americans who have been convicted of doing that, but they were not the few bad apples as claimed. All of the investigations of torture in US facilities have followed the uniform code of justice, which in all of these cases only allowed for investigating DOWN the chain of command, not up. And there was a reason for that…the policies came from the top, and the system sealed them against the law.

You can’t have it both ways, you either have laws and morality, or you don’t. When it was revealed that we have tortured and killed while torturing, we no longer had the right to accuse anyone of wrongdoing in this respect. And, if the time comes, and some unfortunate US soldier is captured and tortured, we will have no right to claim wrongdoing, because we no longer honor the Geneva Conventions any more than our enemies do. Once again, the difference being they never did sign the treaties, which means they aren’t the hypocrites that we are. Simply put, you either follow the laws of war agreed upon in decades past, or you don’t, and if you don’t, then those laws no longer apply, including in relation to protections for either side. And that is where we are now, no rules, and no rights to complain when things go awfully wrong.

#64060 by Jeff Badura

I’m not completely finding fault in our gluttony, for it drives our economy, giving us a wonderful standard of living, but we have become very soft just the same !! the American dream is the acquisition of as much wealth as possible, with the least of amount of sacrifice necessary !!

I think it best, if this “discussion” continue, to be specific to one or two issues at a time. I’ll start with two issues, first, The American Dream. Next post will have issue #2.

There is no American Dream, at least for other than a tiny percentage of the very wealthiest of this country. The current bankrupt middle class thinks they have the American Dream, because they have “stuff”, but the fact is, almost none of it is paid for. That says to me, they have an American Nightmare.

The average individual credit card debt in this country will take around 40 years to pay off…and that doesn’t address the debt that will be added in those ensuing decades. Basically, Americans are in debt for life, and as a result, are unable to save anything toward retirement. And that would have been the original AD, working and achieving independence for old age. That no longer exists. There is an entire generation now that will be homeless when old age comes. Simply put, at one time there was hope for the middle class of this country, but that has evaporated over the last 30 years or so.

Ronald Reagan was instrumental in this, in that he championed tax cuts for the wealthy, and attempted to remove all meaningful controls on business. There is a point to be made about making business socially responsible. It’s about how much business owes the taxpayer. There is a public works system in place, that we the taxpayers built and paid for, that business takes advantage of, i.e. power generation and distribution, roads, sewers, water purification and distribution, first responders such as firefighters and police…infrastructure that we paid for, that is used by business.

When Ronald Reagan slashed taxes on the wealthy from about 70% to 28%, the tax base moved even more to the middle class, but then, the middle class has always born the brunt of taxation and support of social infrastructure. Whenever utilities have any cost of production or improvement, it is ALWAYS passed on to the consumer, even though those very same utilities couldn’t exist without the tax supported social infrastructure of this country. Business wouldn’t exist without it. And yet, business howls like a banshee whenever they are expected to pay their fair share. Old news, but to the point related to the American Dream, or lack thereof.

And yes, we have lots of “stuff” that raises our supposed standard of living, but much of it is superfluous crap that we could do without. Our gross national product is inflated because of these very products, like a thousand different varieties of television sets, or stereos, or food processors, or air conditioners, or whatever! How many different models of automobile do you really need? Of course, none of it is about need, it’s about wants. And Americans today simply live beyond their means, because business has programmed them through endless S&M;(Sales & Marketing) on television and the internets. There is an old term I wish would come back…layaway. There’s an entire generation now that doesn’t even know what that means. It’s about not getting what you want until it’s paid for. And layaway didn’t involve usury, only payment for the product, and final ownership. Today, virtually no one actually owns anything. Like houses, my wife and I are in a tiny majority there, we own our home. How many people do you know who own their own home…or their car? Hell, they most likely don’t own the clothes on their backs!

The American Dream is a sad fantasy, only because people have been fooled into believing it’s real, all while any semblance of it is now gone with the wind. Tomorrow is another day...but I doubt it’s gonna be better than yesterday!

@ gunto

WHY THE LIB’S ARE AGAINST THE WAR

after WW II the baby boomers came into the world with the highest standard of living of any human in the history of mankind, they repaid such a gift with a deep-seeded feeling of entitlement, there is always a wave of resentment for past generations and a feeling of entitlement by human youth, that still permeates our culture today !! the “me culture” is looked upon with admiration “greed is good” we must acquire more and more things to make us happy,

fighting of the cold war that followed WW II upset many of the baby boomers, they see no evil, hear no evil, unless your talking about their own government, equating a moral relativism to all, for instance, seeing no difference between the gulags of Russia and Camp-Gitmo ( Sen, Durbin on the senate floor 2005) sacrificing our national wealth and the bravest and brightest of our population in the name of future generations security, is not palatable to the masses !!

I’m not completely finding fault in our gluttony, for it drives our economy, giving us a wonderful standard of living, but we have become very soft just the same !! the American dream is the acquisition of as much wealth as possible, with the least of amount of sacrifice necessary !!

this selfishness manifested itself into rebellious attitudes starting right after WW II (maybe even earlier) towards the culture and institutions that gave us everything, we now have !!! 

the Dem’s, liberals, progressives. or “left” of our nations mean well, but they want to make excuses and placate the terrorists, or bad guys around the globe, blaming ourselves,when its not our fault, for all the worlds ills cause they are quasi-religiously apposed to punitive action (war). never willing to make the hard choices of what to do, about past ills and looming disasters to come, more willing to try to build some wall or institutions (more bloated bureaucracies ) to combat the problems, with the least amount of personnel sacrifice !!  even resenting those wanting to face the evils of the world, ( neocons )

for instance it was called “a rush to war in Iraq” this is a favorite bumper sticker of the left, when the issue of Saddam’s brutality was with us since the 60’s with over 3 wars he was to blame for, and over 12 yrs of sanctions and 16 UN resolutions ?? calling it a rush to war is pure fantasy, we went through yrs of sanctions with no good results !! fooling ourselves that we had Saddam in a box !!

some would rather blame those responsible to address such problem (our Government ) for the inherited problem itself ?? just to lie to ourselves, or rightfully blaming the policies of the past without a willingness to correct them !!!

even worse call the party and the leaders in power liars and profiteers to discredit your own involvement in the war, saying Bush miss lead us ??? saying Bush invaded Afghanistan to build a pipeline ??  or saying that the Iraq war is to blame for the worlds terrorism ??? did they forget about 9/11 ??  or even saying that 9/11 was conjured up by our own government as pretext to invade the nations of the middles east ?? what kind of message does give to the world today in a bloody battle for hearts and minds we are fighting.

the left the libs and the Dem’s just have no core responsibility too their country their planet or the future generations to come !!! a large portion has become soft spoiled rotten lazy cowards !!  this way of thinking is not conducive with doing what is right around the globe !!! 

illgramaticus knee-o’kaun

#63765 by Jeff Badura

same here !!  look at the bright side, in some parts of the world, opposite political opinions inside the same country, and we would be shooting at each other !!  at least here in the USA we can disagree without killing one another !!

That is something that I hope will not end. However, I fear that it may well end one day soon, especially if another terrorist attack occurs on US soil. I’m afraid the Constitution is so fragile now, that it won’t survive the hit. And that will be the end of the United States as we’ve known it. That said, I am glad that the US is still a place of freedom of speech, and I truly hope it remains so. It will only survive however, if We The People insist, and keep all the politicians feet to the fire in this regard.

PS- Q.; when has the USA in a time of War ever voted for a dove??

Personally, I can’t think of a US President in my lifetime that I would call a dove. Perhaps Jimmy Carter would be the closest to that term. If Hillary becomes President (god forbid), I don’t think she’ll be a dove at all. As far as I’m concerned, no one currently running is a dove. Basically, in this country, politically speaking, dove’s are an endangered species.

I guess I need an example of a dove to really know what that is. Not only can I not think of one in my lifetime, I can’t think of one at all.

On an unrelated topic, but still an important one, one of the fears I have for this country is a complete financial collapse, perhaps even worse than the Great Depression after the stock market crash of 1929. I think it fair to point out the similarities between the 20’s and now, i.e. more money in fewer hands than ever before. That is true now as it was true in the 20’s. We also have an artificially high stock market, that is dangerously overextended on credit. This country has zero savings by the middle class, as a matter of fact, the savings now is a net negative...people are spending more than they make, so not only are they not saving, they are getting deeper in debt with each new day.

What I’m getting to here is the political landscape. The Great Depression was preceded by three of the worst Presidents ever...all Republicans, all pro-business, all anti-middle class. They were, Warren G. Harding (1921-23), Calvin Coolidge (1923-29) and Herbert Hoover (1929-33)...three in a row, and the walls came tumbling down! It took a pro-middle class President like FDR to raise the country out of the financial disaster brought on by 12 years of Republican mismanagement and corruption in the executive branch. I see the same thing happening again...just far worse. This country has gone through the looking glass financially, with virtually ever American in debt up to their hairlines. That is one of the things I truly loathe Reagan for...removing the usury laws that prevented moneylenders from screwing their customers, and his deregulation of the credit industry. Did you know that GE’s (one of the biggest weapons manufacturers on Earth) credit division is their most profitable division? One of my favorite one liners is as follows…

AMERICA, USURE FRIENDLY FOR OVER 30 YEARS.

I truly hope I’m wrong, but if I’m not, this country is in for a very bumpy ride in the coming years. And, based on the war footing we’ve put forward, if our economy does fall out from under us, we will be terribly vulnerable. This country may end up going the way of Rome, which was eventually overrun by barbarians (at the gate) when it totally lost it’s way. They were the greatest superpower of their day too, but didn’t remain that way because they were unable to adapt to the world they had created, through violence, financial and military domination, and wars...wars that eventually were fought by mercenary armies (re: Blackwater USA) that turned on them when their weakness became self-evident.

As I say, I hope that I am wrong.

#63561 by guntotin ganglion on 4/12 at 10:06 am

“ I do respect your views, and your reasons for them, I simply disagree entirely with your suppositions. I’m glad that the “discussion” has moved beyond recriminations and name calling, on both our parts.”

Gunto

same here !!  look at the bright side, in some parts of the world, opposite political opinions inside the same country, and we would be shooting at each other !!  at least here in the USA we can disagree without killing one another !!

PS- Q.; when has the USA in a time of War ever voted for a dove??

#63506 by Jeff Badura

The US and our allies were directly involved in arming both Iran and Iraq, and when the war started, Iraq was going to lose, since Iran is so much larger, and was far stronger, but we interceded on Saddam’s behalf and made sure they didn’t lose...and in so doing, created a monster, and extended what should have been a short war, into the longest war of the 20th century. We did that, no one else...and in doing it, we set Saddam up as the despot we finally overthrew because of how powerful we made him. It all sounds like cold-blooded opportunism to me...we set him up as a threat to the region, and when he achieved that, we accused him of being a threat to the region, without ever acknowledging that we made him so. And, as usual, in all of this, American (and our allies) companies made billions in pure profits.

Being a country founded out of European culture and extremism, I can see the parallels you make with Europe. Relatively valid points. However, the middle east is something entirely different. Thinking we can change them by force of arms is a fool’s paradise. Their culture is far older than ours, and it has been based in tribalism for thousands of years. Our efforts there are guaranteed to fail. Basically, don’t even try to teach your great-great-great-great-great grandfather how to suck eggs! It is the height of hubris to think we can effect positive change in the middle east through force. All of our power, which is historically the greatest ever, will make no difference. The only change all of our projected power will effect, is negative. And then there will be blowback, and innocent people will once again die.

And good luck with Mr. McCain. I’ve mourned our defeat in Iraq since the first day we started the unprovoked attack there. I don’t cheer our defeat, I find it horribly tragic for all involved. But nothing will make this sows ear into a silk purse. We lost when we fabricated the justifications to attack a defenseless country. And to continue with the evisceration of the people of Iraq, using this facile claim as justification (that we’ll make things better) is so wrong...we’re the reason things are so bad there, and if we stay, it will only get worse, as it has every day since we arrived. And I just have to say, ol’ McCain is one of the biggest flip-floppers in history, but if you think he’s the guy, as I say, I wish you luck on that one, truly.

And not to worry about my taking a vote away from him, I won’t. I either will not vote, or will vote for Ralph Nader, which I realize is a non-vote. I’m with George Carlin on this. He said in a recent standup, that he refuses to take part in this circus, and will only sit in the bleachers and watch the circus go on. I’m with him there. I’m for watching the fools take us lemmings off the cliff, especially since nothing I do will change anything. Doesn’t matter if it’s a demo or a repub, they’re the same. Politicians are vermin, and not to be trusted for a second...and it doesn’t matter what they call themselves, they’re all barracuda’s.  And if I do vote for Nader, it will be because he is the only human being who’s run for President in my lifetime. Years ago corporations poured millions into a campaign to discredit him, to find “dirt” in his past. They failed miserably, and completely. He’s literally as pure as the driven snow...a truly moral man in a world otherwise virtually devoid of morality.

I do respect your views, and your reasons for them, I simply disagree entirely with your suppositions. I’m glad that the “discussion” has moved beyond recriminations and name calling, on both our parts.

@ #63471 by guntotin ganglion

Gunto

well when your dealing with war and peace and mankind’s history nothing happens to an exact template or plan, war is like a fire and once started it can rage uncontrollably

to blame the USA for the Iran-Iraq war is a giant stretch, we might have antagonized the situation but we were not the cause !!

i don’t wish to see the bloodshed and carnage unleashed on the Middle East that was unleashed on Europe in WW-I and WW-II but I’m positive and I’m sure, you will agree, that the lasting peace and stability that most of Europe (other than the Balkans) has enjoyed, was due to the 2500 yrs of warfare they finally got out of there systems in the 20th century !! never in the history of the Continent, since before the Romans has the Continent been so peaceful, and now they are slowly coalescing into one mega-country on there own without a despot to concur them !!

i believe the same, is eventually possible in the Middle East too !! but before it can be done the century’s old revenge tit for tat you are speaking of, has to be worked out of their systems, just as Europe need the helping hand and involvement of the USA so does the Middle East, they have to be prodded into a longer peace, and were in the region could this be better started then in the multi-ethnic region called Iraq!!

so again we disagree, were i think US involvement is necessary for a future peace, you believe its an impediment to future peace, so we have the heated arguments you see across the country !!

i was very pleased by the words of our next President John McCain, yesterday, and i will leave you with some of them : “Before I left for Iraq, I watched with regret as the House of Representatives voted to deny our troops the support necessary to carry out their new mission. Democratic leaders smiled and cheered as the last votes were counted. What were they celebrating? Defeat? Surrender? In Iraq, only our enemies were cheering. A defeat for the United States is a cause for mourning not celebrating. And determining how the United States can avert such a disaster should encourage the most sober, public-spirited reasoning among our elected leaders not the giddy anticipation of the next election. Democrats who voted to authorize this war, and criticized the failed strategy that has led us to this perilous moment, have the same responsibility I do, to offer support when that failure is recognized and the right strategy is proposed and the right commanders take the field to implement it or, at the least, to offer an alternative strategy that has some relationship to reality”.- McCain 4/11/07

IllGramaticus Knee O’Kaun

re: #63287 by Jeff Badura

I will add a postscript, and there’s no need to reply if you don’t care to. Your final post made me truly feel for you, and understand your concerns. However…

I feel that the warfare we have chosen to wage is spreading so much violence, death and grievous injuries that it is the very thing that you fear will bring blowback in years to come.

In human affairs, you cannot waste the lives of so many innocent, uninvolved people and not effect hatred from their surviving friends and relatives. They will seek revenge, it’s that simple. This was one of the main reasons 9/11 happened, because of blowback for bad things you have agreed that this country has done, but you think no longer apply. Those who’ve been wronged disagree, and have been looking for opportunities for vengeance ever since. What they did was evil, in that they killed innocent people, but no more evil than the things that were done by this country to the innocent people of their countries.

We have meddled in the affairs of foreign countries all over the world for decades, and to simply think that that’s behind us, and that those who attack us do so because were on top, or because they’re simply evil, is incorrect. If someone killed a member of your family, and you had the opportunity years later to exact revenge, would your vengeance no longer be valid because they say it no longer applies? And if you killed innocent bystanders, you would be no better than them. It’s a lose lose situation, those who are wronged lose, and those who wronged them lose, and none of it changes anything for the better.

Over the decades, this country has been directly involved in the killing of millions. The Iran and Iraq war, which went on for 8 years, was one we were ultimately responsible for, and it saw a million dead. We sold to both sides, and made sure that war went on far longer than was necessary, and in so doing made a much stronger monster out of Saddam. How many million Vietnamese died in Vietnam? Guatemala? El Salvador? Nicaragua? Honduras? Panama? Columbia? Ecuador? Chile? All countries that the US has meddled with and overthrown legitimate governments because they wouldn’t play ball with American business.

I believe you believe you are right. I believe that in your heart you are good. I understand your fears. But, the old saying applies...evil happens when good men do nothing.

Regards and peace.

#63247 by Guntotin Ganglion on 4/10 at 9:50 pm asks “You sir, are a war appeaser. You make excuses for the industrialized death of infants, children...so many that shouldn’t have died. How can you sleep at night?”

its simple Gunto,

i don’t agree with your supposition, i don’t believe the war is illegal, i believe we are doing the right thing for the greater good of humanity,

yes, i do lose sleep at night, but not do to guilt from my actions or my support, i often toss and turn because, i believe your side, your group, of like minded thinkers, are so horribly wrong, and if you make enough noise to obfuscate the facts, (like 9/11 plot) then you could aid in the USA losing in this war on terror!!(horrible name for a war)

i lose sleep because, i wonder if the USA has lost its collective will, to do to the hard necessary jobs around the globe,

and i lose sleep because, i logically see into the future, 10, 20, 30, 50, yrs from now, and I see a horrible probability on the horizon, where we could lose millions, in a future attack,

if the USA loses its resolve today, and adopts just a smidgen of your attitudes !! we could lose this war gunto, and that does keep me up at night !! 

your right the banter has become redundant,

so have a nice day, i mean it
illgramaticus knee o’kaun

re: #63131 by Jeff Badura

I don’t hate you, I feel sorry for you. And having anger toward such simplistic “reasoning”, in the face of overwhelming facts regarding the criminal nature of this “war”, doesn’t mean that I hate you. Pity is a better word.

You are like a friend of mine. A nice guy, who means well, but is delusional. You are just like him. Your words and arguments mirror his to a T. You both have bought the endless propaganda, hook, line and sinker. I tried for years to get through to him, figuring if I could turn his ponies slightly, I might have achieved something. I found, as with you, that it isn’t possible. Your ponies will not be turned by logic, reality or facts of any kind. You know what you know and will suffer no challenges. And sir, I know what I know, and can back it all up with reality and facts, but sadly, the time it would take to troubleshoot your mischaracterizations of my writing, makes it not worth the effort, for in the end, no matter how I delouse your delusions, you will continue with delusion.

And no one knows how many have died. We don’t do body counts, which of course, is another war crime. Reputable establishments like the Lancet (aka Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health), who’s data have been used by the administration when they agree with their political goals, and “discredited” when they don’t, are the estimates I choose to believe. Their statistical methods are standardized and peer reviewed. They’re methods and results are NOT discredited by anyone who understands what they are doing. You’ll dismiss them off-hand, but I would ask, what is your knowledge of their methodology, that you can dismiss them at all?

Your figure of 50 thousand is fiction. Even the conservative Iraq Body Count, which is woefully short on reality, has the deaths today at a low of 61074 and a high of 67015. That’s a ratio of over 20 to 1 innocent casualties to US armed forces casualties. If you care to pull your head out of Bushworld for a moment, look at the average Lancet estimate, and you will see a 200 to 1 ratio. Go to the high end of the study, it’s closer to 350 to 1. By any measure of warfare, a 20 to 1 ratio is horrific...that means that 95% of all deaths are innocents. 350 to 1 is a psychotic nightmare...that cranks the percentage of innocents dead to 99.7% of all mortalities.

Ya, I know “regrettable...but it can’t be helped”. You sir, are a war appeaser. You make excuses for the industrialized death of infants, children...so many that shouldn’t have died. How can you sleep at night?

As Madeleine Albright said when asked if the deaths of over a half a million children, by starvation and deprivation during the embargo of Iraq, were worth it, yes, it was worth it. She is a vile pile.

Your answers show me that you don’t read my words, you look at them and react, then go into standard defense m