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Fear Not the Muslim Brotherhood Boogeyman

Posted on Feb 15, 2011
AP / Amr Nabil

An Egyptian protester in Cairo’s Tahrir Square celebrates the downfall of former dictator Hosni Mubarak.

By Juan Cole

The hysteria in American media about Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood is not only ignorant and demagogic, it is hypocritical. The United States has actively promoted Muslim Brotherhood branches in other countries when it suited its purposes, including in Afghanistan and Iraq. Moreover, the Turkish and Indonesian cases of democratic transition in the Muslim world should have taught us something about how Muslim fundamentalist parties are themselves transformed in a democratic setting.

As recently as 2005, the pragmatic Muslim Brotherhood had 88 seats in the lower house of the parliament, about 20 percent, and so has been at some points a junior partner in Egypt’s governance. It has been so establishment that it declined to support the Facebook campaign on April 6, 2008, for better wages and working conditions for Egypt’s textile factory workers. Out of that campaign came the April 6 Committee that called for this year’s Jan. 25 demonstration. The Brotherhood joined this year’s protest movement only at the last minute and was not a leading force in it.

On Sunday, the Brotherhood called upon the new military regime to release all prisoners of conscience, including young protesters incarcerated during the past three weeks. Its leaders also asked for an end to the state of emergency laws that allow the government to suspend civil liberties. It further suggested that a cabinet minister be appointed to investigate government corruption under the old regime.

On Saturday, the Brotherhood had issued a statement praising the Egyptian military high command for its role in stabilizing the country and taking it toward democratic civilian rule. The fundamentalist group denied that it sought to dominate Egypt, and pledged that it would field no candidate for president in the upcoming elections, and would have no strategy of trying to dominate the new parliament. 

The Brotherhood can afford to be magnanimous here, since it is not clear that the clause in the constitution that forbids it from running as a religious party will be abrogated, and it may depend, as in the past, on other parties being willing to run popular Brothers in certain constituencies. There is no indication from the opinion polling in Egypt, moreover, that it would be able to dominate parliament even if that were its goal. Some of its leaders have spoken of putting the peace treaty with Israel to a popular referendum. But the still-powerful Egyptian military probably would not allow any such step, and even if it did, the polling suggests that the peace treaty would win. In any case, the Brotherhood is not speaking the sort of language that Ayatollah Khomeini preferred in 1979 in Iran’s revolution, when he rejected phrases such as “democracy” as un-Islamic.

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Someone named Andy McCarthy, identified as a “former federal prosecutor,” has been everywhere in the media making the most grossly inaccurate claims about the Muslim Brotherhood and demonstrating a profundity of ignorance about Egypt unmatched since Pope Innocent III launched the disastrous Fifth Crusade in 1213. McCarthy alleged that the Brotherhood assassinated Egyptian President Anwar Sadat in 1981, that Ayman al-Zawahri of al-Qaida is in this group, and that the fundamentalist party Hamas in the Gaza Strip is under the control of the Egyptian Brotherhood. Everything he said to millions of Americans was a laughable falsehood.

The Brotherhood was begun in 1928 by Hassan al-Banna, a schoolteacher, as a revivalist movement that also protested the influence of British colonialism. Contrary to what Paul Berman and other neoconservatives have alleged, al-Banna thoroughly condemned Hitler and Mussolini as execrable racists, and his movement had nothing in common with European fascism. In a reaction against the British reoccupation of Egypt during World War II, the organization developed a terrorist cell in the 1940s and early 1950s. But the massive crackdown on it that its violence provoked drove the organization underground and marginalized it.

In the 1970s, Sadat rehabilitated the Brotherhood and stipulated that if it would eschew violence and become a civil society association, the government would let its members out of jail and allow them relative freedom. It was this bargain, to which the Brotherhood has faithfully adhered, that drove radicals such as al-Zawahri, now al-Qaida’s No. 2 leader, to break with the Brotherhood and to denounce it virulently. Sadat was not assassinated by the Brotherhood, contrary to what was alleged to the great Mideast expert Sean Hannity by the great Mideast expert McCarthy. The president was felled by militants who rejected both him and his ally, the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Brotherhood is a decentralized organization even in Egypt. It is not organized internationally. The Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan, e.g., is essentially a different organization from its Egyptian counterpart. Hamas has its distant origins in Brotherhood proselytizing in the 1930s, but it takes no orders from Cairo. Other political groups with a Muslim Brotherhood genealogy include the Iraqi Islamic Party, which cooperated with George W. Bush’s invasion of and administration of Iraq.

The Muslim Brotherhood is a fundamentalist organization. It is relatively hostile to women’s rights, and its vision of moving Egypt even further from civil, secular law to a conservative and literalist interpretation of medieval Muslim traditions is reactionary. Its literature is tainted with the worst sort of anti-Semitism. But decades of repression have not destroyed the movement, and there is no reason to believe that more repression would be more effective now.

There is another, proven, way to deal with this problem. The political success stories of the past decade in the Muslim world with regard to democratization are Turkey and Indonesia. In both countries the fundamentalist religious tendency has been liberalized and domesticated by its participation in the parliamentary process. Mubarak’s regime did not work. Democracy in Turkey and Indonesia has. Let us go with a winner for once.


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Arabian Sinbad's avatar

By Arabian Sinbad, March 31, 2011 at 5:07 pm Link to this comment

By TequilaKid, March 31 at 8:28 pm Link to this comment

It is truly a shameless piece of propaganda to praise Turkish Islamists as committed democrats. Now that they hold power, democracy has taken a back seat to Mohammedan mumbo-jumbo. Erdogan is rapidly transforming Turkey into a police state. The members of the ruling party have infiltrated all areas of government and are imposing their monolithic hegemony,  while secularists are shown the exit. Read the well-informed articles of Soner Çagaptay, who , unlike Juan Cole, isn’t a stalking horse for Islamist imperialism.
============================
You must be another ignorant bigot on the block! With the pen name you adopted, it should be clear that no one should take you seriously.

Go and continue getting drunk with your Tequila and you hatred for Islam and Muslims, for, per chance you will get poisoned by your own hateful venom!

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By TequilaKid, March 31, 2011 at 4:28 pm Link to this comment

It is truly a shameless piece of propaganda to praise Turkish Islamists as committed democrats. Now that they hold power, democracy has taken a back seat to Mohammedan mumbo-jumbo. Erdogan is rapidly transforming Turkey into a police state. The members of the ruling party have infiltrated all areas of government and are imposing their monolithic hegemony,  while secularists are shown the exit. Read the well-informed articles of Soner Çagaptay, who , unlike Juan Cole, isn’t a stalking horse for Islamist imperialism.
http://www.cagaptay.com/9002/beware-the-turkish-model
http://www.cagaptay.com/8894/turkey-nightmare
.

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By christian96, February 23, 2011 at 2:15 am Link to this comment

Zechariah 14:12 reads, “And this shall be the plague
wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that
have fought against Jerusalem; “Their flesh shall
consume away while they stand upon their feet, and
their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and
their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.”
I dread seeing this day coming but in reality it is
fast approaching.  The Muslim Brotherhood will support radical Islam which teaches that Jews should
be killed.  Jesus himself said in John 16:2, “Yea,
the time comes that whosoever kills you will think
that he does God’s will.”  Do you think the people
in the radical Islamic movement don’t teach this
very concept?  When you see the massive slaughter
of those who come against Jerusalem remember that it
was predicted more than 2,000 years ago.  Also, know
that there is a God in Heaven.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 22, 2011 at 10:28 am Link to this comment

OM:

Huh???? I have no idea what you are talking about.  I’ve disagreed with you before and will again, but I never thought you a stalwart of the Teaparty.  I guess I was wrong, but I hope not.

I have NO apologies for my views on the Teaparty.  It is clear they are the new home for the White racists and only appeared when a Black man was elected President, determined to cut an spending that is PERCEIVED as primarily going to non-Whites.

As for Gulam, he has shown his neo-nazi stripes too often to be paid attention to.

We will see what the Muslim Brotherhood does.  But it is becoming clear that the Muslim world is getting sick of the fanatical suicide-bombing radicals.  Even in the Taliban, the mid-level commanders are losing faith in their leadership like Sheik Omar.

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Gulam's avatar

By Gulam, February 20, 2011 at 8:39 pm Link to this comment

ITW attacks anyone who challenges Israeli and American Jewish exceptionalism,
accusing them of the crudest anti-Semitism and labelling them as male red-
neck Christians. Since this site, like most other liberal web sites, is apparently
run by Jews, she thinks this gives her special rights to run her mouth off in such
a negative and aggressive manner. Perhaps it does.

Since WWII is has been absolutely forbidden to every suggest that Jewish
actions played any part whatsoever in the horrible events of the Nazi period,
that the Jews were anything but violated innocents, that there was nothing
whatever that THEY did to make the Germans angry. In forever banning any
suggestion that the Jews themselves may have contributed to the situation by
waltzing into a wide open and liberal Germany, taking over the financial system
and cultural institutions, crashing the former, and secularizing the latter. By
making it impossible to suggest that when given enough rope the Jews do tend
to hang themselves, they have guaranteed that the whole process will repeat
itself in the United States. If the Mormons had a quarter of the control that Jews
have today USA over the policies of the US government there would be riots in
New York and congressional committees trying to get to the bottom of the
takeover.

ITW shows us again and again that because of who and what she is she thinks
she is entitled to be nasty and personally aggressive in ways that no Gentile
would dare to imitate in reverse, because they have been brow-beaten for so
long, like this. The internet was for a short time perhaps a way of getting
around government and corporate control, but look who owns the big internet
companies now. Go look into it yourself, go see who owns America’s media. Go
see why ITW thinks that she is entitled to tell everyone whom she perceives to
be a male gentile where to get off. ITW shows us precisely why we are living in
dangerous times. The Jewish community should not push quite so hard to
secularize and de-gender American culture all at once at a time when America
just might be on the verge of a great depression and a great awakening of
evangelical Christian power. After Gaza, in the eyes of most of the world the
Philistines are David and Israel is Goliath. How are Larry Somers and Ben
Bernanke, Goldman Sachs, and Bernie Madoff not going to be blamed when the
dollar crashes?

ITW is right to be freaking out, things are not looking good for Israel, and this
will be a tragedy for everyone if it follows time-tested patterns. I know a
number of American-born Jews who have already moved out of the US.
Screaming that it is all the fault of ever-evil male gentiles is neither accurate
nor helpful. It is this placing of one community apart, above, and beyond all
criticism or rules that is at the root of recurring problems. This is Israel once
again irrationally depending upon arrogance, divine protection, insults, 
wealth,and foreign allies to protect her in the face of much larger neighbours
like Assyria, Babylon, the Ptolemys, Rome, and now the entire Muslim world.
They always think that if they run up the rhetoric another notch that will scare
off all enemies and accomplish the impossible. ITW is playing the standard roll
to perfection. Today this self-defeating pushy behaviour is at the heart of major
world events from Wall Street to Chicken Street (Kabul), and it could rapidly
become a serious problem for Jews in the USA if the dollar ceases to be the
world’s standard currency.

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OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, February 20, 2011 at 2:13 pm Link to this comment

Inherit the Wind said:

Both he and TD3 flat-out lie about me and my positions constantly.  I guess THEY need a boogeyman, too, to try to justify their hate-filled fantasies. And I’m it.

Won’t be the first time, probably won’t be the last.

You guys are the Teaparty’s best hope.

That pretty much is ITW. Out of one side of his mouth he complains about prejudice but out of the other side of his mouth he spews out crap like You guys are the Teaparty’s best hope. So at the same time that he condemns one prejudice he appeals to a differnt prejudice. Typical ITW. 

ITW, I havent forgotten your anti-Christian riff. And then the way you spread your hands afterward reminds me of Robert now.

Take my advice: stop trying to appease these people with your prejudice against me. It doesnt do you any good. It doesnt make them like you, and all it does is alienate me more.

In spite of that, if push comes to shove on Israel, or on persecution of Jews, you know i will have your back, but moreso I will stand beside you.

Meanwhile I know that when push comes to shove you will be against me. You have expressed your prejudice often enough that i know it is permanent, so I do not count on you for anything.

On a minor point: the Muslim Brotherhood is quite a questionable organization. Not unlike the KKK which morphs somewhat and then David Duke runs for office. You are defending the MB, hoping to prove multicultural bona fides? It is just like supporting David Duke, though. You dont know what he is going to do or say. Is it wise to defend Duke? To call him a moderate? To say that everything has changed? No, it isnt wise.

ITW, you praise the Muslim Brotherhood while you shit on the Tea Party. That reveals the level of your political acumen. Which, frankly, is so clouded by prejudice that it sinks lower every year.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 20, 2011 at 10:45 am Link to this comment

I can’t help that Robert and TD3 both suffer from memory lapses that are highly convenient.

Nor will either of them stick to the topic—the Muslim Brotherhood.

I have discounted and shown how Robert’s “sources” are phony, biased, and unreliable on so many occasions that I don’t need to do it again. Oops—there’s that convenient memory of his again.

Both he and TD3 flat-out lie about me and my positions constantly.  I guess THEY need a boogeyman, too, to try to justify their hate-filled fantasies. And I’m it.

Won’t be the first time, probably won’t be the last.

You guys are the Teaparty’s best hope.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, February 19, 2011 at 10:24 pm Link to this comment

By truedigger3, February 19 at 3:57 pm


“ITW,

I don’t remember that you CONDEMNED the criminal Israeli attack on the defenseless people of Gaza.”

~~~~~~~~

truedigger3…

You are quite right; ITW has not “CONDEMNED” Israel’s brutal & massive military attack on a mostly defenseless Palestinian people in Gaza.

I have a fairly good memory & I can say this without any hesitation that ITW did NOT use the word “CONDEMN” when it came to Israel’s massive killings in Gaza.

ITW’s role on TD during that period in 2008/2009 was mainly PR & damage control for Israel. He got lots of help & support from sepharad, another TD poster, during that time. She went on to say that Israel did NOT use white phosphorus on civilians in Gaza & that Israel had the most honorable army in the world.

I remember Folktruther condemning Israel’s massive brutality & killings. He was critical of both ITW & sepharad for their not speaking out for oppressed human beings. Folktruther was pleading with ITW & sepharad to stop the damage control narratives & be on the side of fairness/truth.

Israel was dropping 500 pound bombs on civilian buildings burning & wiping out entire families…children, mothers, grandmothers…etc…May be ITW wants to call this Israeli atrocity…“their RIGHT to defend themselves”.

One more time for the record…ITW...stop your damn lies about me being anti-semitic / hating Jews. Your lies will NOT help your personal zionism’s agenda here on TD and for that matter anywhere.

I defy you to post any specific comment that I have posted on TD to back your pale accusations.

I have requested & challenged you regarding this matter previously on several occasions, and as usual, you did NOT come up with anything…ITW!!!

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By truedigger3, February 19, 2011 at 10:57 am Link to this comment

Re: By Inherit The Wind, February 19 at 2:18 pm

ITW,

I don’t remember that you CONDEMNED the criminal Israeli attack on the defenseless people of Gaza.
You didn’t answer a SINGLE point from my post, instead you reverted to your customary personal attacks and diversions.
It is telling, that all the Zionist Contingent posting in truthdig, and most of the Zionist or “Zionist Paid” talking heads in the News Media, and most of the “fake” progressives, like yourself, are now singing the praise of the Muslim Brotherhood and how peaceful and nonviolent it has become, IGNORING its reactionary policies and oppressive theocratic atomospher, with very restricted civil and personal liberties that it will impose on Egypt, and its attitude toward women and non-Muslim minorities!!.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 19, 2011 at 9:18 am Link to this comment

TD3,
You keep saying stupider and stupider things. Don’t set up a carnival act as a mind-reader—people will be throwing rotten tomatoes at you.  You can’t even read my mind when I TELL you what I’m thinking!

Ayn Rand’s wisest thing she ever wrote was that it is the very nature of existence that contradictions cannot occur.  When you think you have found one,
check your premises—you will find one or more of them in error.

Robert, your claim to not hate Jews rings as hollow as segregationist politician saying “Why summa mah bes’ frens are nigras.”

In case you haven’t been reading (and you haven’t) I have CONDEMNED Israeli indiscriminate attacks, but I won’t condemn their RIGHT to defend themselves, as you do.

I have no knowledge of why FolkTruther is gone. I can only speculate that he violated the TD AUP rules too many times. Other than that I will not comment. It’s not appropriate.

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By truedigger3, February 19, 2011 at 5:29 am Link to this comment

Re: By Inherit The Wind, February 19 at 5:11 am

ITW wrote:
“And here we have the “zionist” “apartheid-loving” ITW defending the Muslim Brotherhood for being mis-represented, and all small-minded Robert can do is mis-represent ITW, without ONCE stepping up to the plate to defend the MB!”
——————————————————————————-

ITW,
You are back again to your classic sophistry and bullshitting!
You are defending the Muslim Brotherhood, not out of the “goodness of your heart”, but because if the MB rules Egypt, it will be disaster for Egypt and invaluable gift to your beloved Israel.
Regardless of their “under the table” peaceful intentions and attitude toward Israel, the minute they gain power, Israel will be hostile to them and the stage is set for a war with Egypt for more territorial gains by Israel in Sinai Penninsula.
With both the Egyptian and Israeli armies are armed by the US, who do you think will win that war????!!!
Tell me, why are you celebrating the fall of Mubarak who was friendly toward Israel, and now you are full of praise for the MB, whose OVERT attitude toward Israel is not friendly, although its real attitude toward Israel is friendly and accomodating???!! 
The same script happened before with Hamas. Israel nutured Hamas and helped it to grow.
Israel demanded free elections for the Palestinians, and after Hamas won the elections, Israel turned hostile.
Israel used Hamas as an excuse to destroy Gaza, and now instead of the palestinians struggling against the Israeli occupation, they are fighting each other while the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are growing continuously.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, February 19, 2011 at 1:12 am Link to this comment

One more time...Plus!!!

In 2008/2009 when Israel’s army & its IDF thugs were slaughtering the Palestinians in Gaza… about 1400 Palestinians, mostly women, children & some innocent civilians holding white flags were murdered. Israel used the most sophisticated American made weapons & white phosphorus on a mostly unarmed civilian population.

I do remember Folktruther, who is Jewish, and who used to comment on TD, he spoke out & condemned Israel’s atrocities with its massive US made bombs on a mostly civilian population in Gaza.

ITW…yep ITW, called Folktruther a self hating Jew for speaking out & condemning Israel’s brutal atrocity against the Palestinian people.

I wonder what happened to Folktruther; he has not been on TD for a long time. I surely do miss his sense of decency & his daring to speak out for oppressed human beings.

What else can we expect from ITW…Not much from such a hypocrite. He will continue with those familiar anti-semitic labels, deceptive diversions & PR sentiment tactics for his beloved Nazi/Apartheid Israel.

~~~~~~

Once more for the record


I condemn all killings/murder of innocent civilians…Christians, Jewish,  Moslem…etc…by any country’s military, religious group, thugs…etc…and BTW, I posted this particular section several times on TD’s threads.

Will ITW condemn Israel’s murder & atrocities against thousands of innocent civilians…???

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By Inherit The Wind, February 19, 2011 at 12:11 am Link to this comment

Interesting.  Robert with his tunnel vision, one-track mind, and phobic paranoia about Israel has once again turned a thread to his only topic.

This IS about how the Muslim Brotherhood is being set up as a boogieman of Islamic radical fundamentalism and violence that is totally unjustified based on the major changes the MB has made over the last several years, isn’t it?

And here we have the “zionist” “apartheid-loving” ITW defending the Muslim Brotherhood for being mis-represented, and all small-minded Robert can do is mis-represent ITW, without ONCE stepping up to the plate to defend the MB!

And then Robert has the Sarah Palin/Rush Limbaugh-like GALL to call ME a hypocrite!

Who stands up to defend the MB?
Who doesn’t?

That’s all you need to know about me and Robert!

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, February 18, 2011 at 10:57 pm Link to this comment

Oh weee…!!! That whimpering ITW a dedicated PR & damage control guy for his beloved Apartheid Israel. One can say that he is persistent with his attempts at may be, just may be, ...some positive sentiments for his beloved Israel…LOL.

In 2008/2009 when Israel’s army & its IDF thugs were slaughtering the Palestinians in Gaza… about 1400 Palestinians, mostly women, children & some innocent civilians holding white flags were murdered. Israel used the most sophisticated American made weapons & white phosphorus on a mostly unarmed civilian population.

I do remember Folktruther, who is Jewish, and who used to comment on TD, he spoke out & condemned Israel’s atrocities with its massive US made bombs on a mostly civilian population in Gaza.

ITW…yep ITW, called Folktruther a self hating Jew for speaking out & condemning Israel’s brutal atrocity against the Palestinian people.

I wonder what happened to Folktruther; he has not been on TD for a long time. I surely do miss his sense of decency & his daring to speak out for oppressed human beings.

What else can we expect from ITW…Not much from such a hypocrite. He will continue with those familiar anti-semitic labels, deceptive diversions & PR sentiment tactics for his beloved Nazi/Apartheid Israel.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 18, 2011 at 4:44 pm Link to this comment

Yeah, Robert gets caught spouting other people’s opinions as “facts” and calling me names that have nothing to do with my positions.  To Robert anyone who doesn’t support the destruction of Israel by any means necessary is for “apartheid”.

He hates Jews and everything about Jews but doesn’t have the balls to admit it.

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JDmysticDJ's avatar

By JDmysticDJ, February 17, 2011 at 8:06 pm Link to this comment

Avraham Stern and his followers announced that,

“Proceeding from these considerations, the NMO in Palestine, under the condition the above-mentioned national aspirations of the Israeli freedom movement are recognized on the side of the German Reich, offers to actively take part in the war on Germany’s side.”

Is the above quotation legitimate? Apparently it’s backed up by documentation.

I’ll suppose that arriving at a greater truth, sometimes requires the painful recognition of other truths.

I’ve always believed that fascism is an insidious evil, but I’ve never believed that the practitioners of fascism believed themselves to be evil. Quite the contrary, in their stupidity, and reprobation, I believe fascists believe they are working for the greater good. Yes they are cruel, and incomprehensively so, but in their demented and pathological minds, they seem to believe their cruelty is justified, and virtuous.

I also believe that fascists become fascists in response to what they believe is an evil, while not recognizing their own evil.

It has been said that when Goebbels commented about the “Big lie,” he wasn’t commenting about the efficacy of Nazi propaganda; he was commenting about the propaganda of those he opposed.

I believe that avoiding fascism requires vigilance, reason, and an adherance to basic moral precepts. It’s my belief that fascism is born out of a society’s general moral decadence, and that the slip into fascism begins with a slippery slope that propels a society into the chasm.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, February 17, 2011 at 6:32 pm Link to this comment

What can we expect from that “clever” ITW… LOL…!!!

Its the same ole worn out zionist’s tactics….anti-semetic labels, deceptive diversion attempts, PR & damage control for his beloved Apartheid Israel!

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By Inherit The Wind, February 17, 2011 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment

Robert,what’s next? You’ll come up with “evidence” that Jews use Christian/Muslim blood to make Passover Matzohs?  The old Blood Libel?

Do you have no limit to your lack of decency?

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By berniem, February 17, 2011 at 2:55 pm Link to this comment

To Ozark: Do da name Tinothy McVey mean mean anything to ya? The hills may be nice and scenic but it they haven’t done much to expand your world view! If you call what we currently enjoy here “democracy” you really should consider going back to school if you can still afford it!

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, February 17, 2011 at 2:02 pm Link to this comment

By walterbard, February 17 at 6:32 pm

“To Naeim Giladi
I’ve read your some of your diatribes. Many scholars have rebutted them far better than I can.
Rich Iraqi Jews???  After the 1941 pogram in Iraq you blame Zionist Jews for wanting Iraqi Jews,
in fact any reasonable Iraqi, to flee from Iraq. You’re worse than even those Neturei Karta rabbis
that attended the Holocaust denial conference and shook hands with Ahmadinejad’s bloody hands.
If you hate Israel so much why don’t you go to Iraq or Iran and see how long you’ll last.”

~~~~~

To most fanatic zionists like walterbard…truth/facts can be glaring them in the face regarding the crimes of their “racist zionism”, but they can’t help themselves, their heads are locked and infected in that virulent “AIPAC/Zionist” agenda.

@@@@@@


More from Naeim Giladi’s on zionism’s crimes:

Bacteriological Warfare

“The Haganah put typhus bacteria into the water going to Acre, the people got sick, and the Jewish forces occupied Acre. This worked so well that they sent a Haganah division dressed as Arabs into Gaza, where there were Egyptian forces, and the Egyptians caught them putting two cans of bacteria, typhus and dysentery, into the water supply in wanton disregard of the civilian population.”

~~~~~~~~~~

Click on link for the rest:
http://www.inminds.co.uk/jews-of-iraq.html

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By Inherit The Wind, February 17, 2011 at 2:01 pm Link to this comment

Ah, Robert.  Your density persists…I used “collateral damage” with some sarcasm since that’s what they called it.  But I expect nothing more from you.  According to your anti-semitic novel, oops, narrative, the nearly 1 millions Jews forced to leave various Arab nations were “forced” by…(wait for it)...Irgun and other Jews, not the Arab nations.

That goes hand in hand with your bullshit that Zionists conspired with the Nazis.

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By walterbard, February 17, 2011 at 1:32 pm Link to this comment

To Naeim Giladi
I’ve read your some of your diatribes. Many scholars have rebutted them far better than I can.
Rich Iraqi Jews???  After the 1941 pogram in Iraq you blame Zionist Jews for wanting Iraqi Jews,
in fact any reasonable Iraqi, to flee from Iraq. You’re worse than even those Neturei Karta rabbis
that attended the Holocaust denial conference and shook hands with Ahmadinejad’s bloody hands.
If you hate Israel so much why don’t you go to Iraq or Iran and see how long you’ll last.

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JDmysticDJ's avatar

By JDmysticDJ, February 17, 2011 at 1:24 pm Link to this comment

I guess I’m alone in my belief that the U.S. Government should adopt a, “Hands - off Policy” in respect to recent developments in Egypt and the Middle East. The debate rages on from Left, Right, and Center regarding the best course of action for the U.S. Government to take in order to advance the interests of the U.S., under the guise of promoting peace and stability.

One thing seems clear, the flow of Foreign Aid, and the potential for future economic sanctions will be the subject for U.S. political debate in the future. The money trail of U.S. Foreign Aid leads from the U.S. Tax Payer to the coffers of Multi-National Corporations.

Abandoning Capitalist Imperialism, and the quest for Empire, would most definitely have economic consequences for all parties. Determining what those consequences would be for each of the parties is unclear, but it’s clear to me, if to no one else, that the U.S. Government, the people of the U.S., and the people of the world, would be best served if the U.S. Government adopted policies arrived at by following certain moral and ethical principles, and not exclusively from considerations of U.S. Economic Interest, false and counter productive perceptions of security, and the desire for U.S./Western Hegemony.

Much of the debate here on this forum brings to light certain realities. The historical diplomatic forays related here, on the part of right - wing fundamentalist religious ideologies, in an effort to manipulate right – wing European Governments to serve their individual interests, is remarkable, and should be enlightening to those who have a perspective regarding Left/Right political philosophy, as it relates to U.S. politics.

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By Robert, February 17, 2011 at 1:20 pm Link to this comment

By walterbard, February 17 at 6:00 pm

“Not to the idiot Robert but to any other reader who is open minded.


“Hmmm…1400 Gaza Palestinians, mostly women & children and some holding white flags, were slaughtered by Israel’s IDF thugs in 2008/2009…”

Not even the digustingly biased Goldstone report
states that. In fact not even Hamas. They admit to
sustaining hundreds of combatant fatalities.

I don’t need to cite this just look it up under
any credible news agency web page.”

~~~~~~~~~

walterbard...surely you can provide us with a credible link/source for the above. Come on…man!!!

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By walterbard, February 17, 2011 at 1:00 pm Link to this comment

Not to the idiot Robert but to any other reader who is open minded.


“Hmmm…1400 Gaza Palestinians, mostly women & children and some holding white flags, were slaughtered by Israel’s IDF thugs in 2008/2009…”

Not even the digustingly biased Goldstone report
states that. In fact not even Hamas. They admit to
sustaining hundreds of combatant fatalities.

I don’t need to cite this just look it up under
any credible news agency web page.

As far as Palestinian complicity with the Nazis, go
to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni
There’s a whole lot more but that would be a start.
Incidently the idea of a Palestinian nation was
Huseini’s invention. (there are variataions as to how his name is spelled but it’s the same monster.)

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By Robert, February 17, 2011 at 12:17 pm Link to this comment

By walterbard, February 17 at 1:20 pm

To Robert

“Ethnic cleansing? Close to a million Jews in Arab counties were ethnicly cleansed from all Arab countries.  The irony is that vicious Arab racism was as much responsible for populating Israel as the Nazis, the friends ofthe Palestinians.”

*****

walterbard...one can see right through your fanatic zionism’s brainwashing.

Many of the Jews who left Arab countries were the result of what your “zionist terrorists” had committed in Palestine in the 1940’s. Your zionist heroes were the first to introduce “terrorism” in Palestine. And its well documented!

How about providing us with links/sources for your comments; I do remember what you did from a previous thread.

BTW, that ole ITW…is still whimpering about his beloved Apartheid Israel…PR & damage control!!!

Hmmm…1400 Gaza Palestinians, mostly women & children and some holding white flags, were slaughtered by Israel’s IDF thugs in 2008/2009…and ITW calls it “collateral damage”!!! Israel used white phosphorus & the most sophisticated American made weapons on a mostly unarmed Palestinian population. ITW…will NOT dare condemn such atrocity! A “clever” zionist…eh!!!

~~~~~~~~

Click on link for Naim Giladi’s information & details…Jews killed Jews…Zionists killed Jews:


 

THE JEWS OF IRAQ

by Naeim Giladi


I write this article
for the same reason I wrote my book:
to tell the American people,

and especially American Jews,
that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate
willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave,
Jews killed Jews;
and that,
to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands,
Jews on numerous occasions
rejected genuine peace initiatives
from their Arab neighbors.
I write about what the first prime minister of Israel called “cruel Zionism.”
I write about it because I was part of it.


“About 125,000 Jews left Iraq for Israel in the late 1940s and into 1952, most because they had been lied to and put into a panic by what I came to learn were Zionist bombs.”

 

“On June 3, 1950, another grenade was tossed from a speeding car in the El-Batawin area of Baghdad where most rich Jews and middle class Iraqis lived. No one was hurt, but following the explosion Zionist activists sent telegrams to Israel requesting that the quota for immigration from Iraq be increased.

On June 5, at 2:30 a.m., a bomb exploded next to the Jewish owned Stanley Shashua building on El-Rashid street, resulting in property damage but no casualties.

On January 14, 1951, at 7 p.m., a grenade was thrown at a group of Jews outside the Masouda Shem-Tov Synagogue. The explosive struck a high-voltage cable, electrocuting three Jews, one a young boy, Itzhak Elmacher, and wounding over 30 others. Following the attack, the exodus of Jews jumped to between 600-700 per day.

Zionist propagandists still maintain that the bombs in Iraq were set off by anti-Jewish Iraqis who wanted Jews out of their country. The terrible truth is that the grenades that killed and maimed Iraqi Jews and damaged their property were thrown by Zionist Jews.

Among the most important documents in my book, I believe, are copies of two leaflets published by the Zionist underground calling on Jews to leave Iraq. One is dated March 16, 1950, the other April 8, 1950.”

 

http://www.inminds.co.uk/jews-of-iraq.html

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By Inherit The Wind, February 17, 2011 at 9:56 am Link to this comment

WB:
I frequently disagree with you, rather vehemently.  But you are spot on about Robert.  He likes to bend and twist facts to always make it look like Jews and Israel are a blight on the world.  He always posts OTHER peoples’ work rather than his own, to make it look “scholarly”.  It’s all BS. He’s no different than a “Holocaust denier”.

Israel’s offenses, particularly in recent years, deserve censure and criticism.  They’ve let their own “junior Taliban” get too much control, and it’s dangerous for Jews and Arabs equally. The land grabs go on and with them the pressure and rage of the Palestinians grows, and, now, with justification.

Notice that I’m not defending Hamas’ attacks on Israel from Gaza—I won’t do that, although Israel has handled that utterly miserably, ineptly and with far too much “collateral damage”.

Right now, the worst thing that could happen to Israel is if the Palestinians took to use the Egyptian method to force change: Millions in the streets, peacefully, but inexorably demanding change.

And yet, it could be the best thing, too.

Unfortunately, Robert is incapable of seeing anything but the destruction of Israel as the solution.  His problem.

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By walterbard, February 17, 2011 at 8:20 am Link to this comment

To Robert
Apparently you read what you want to read.
Your diatribe conforms to the antisemitic rabid antiIsrael crowd.
I never denied that that there weren’t negogiations
with the nazis. But to save lives. There were also negogiations between the political and spiritual
founded of the so called palestinians with Heinrich
Himmler, but to commit mass murder. I notice you
ignored that you phony

Ethnic cleansing? Close to a million Jews in Arab counties were ethnicly cleansed from all Arab countries.  The irony is that vicious Arab racism was as much responsible for populating Israel as the Nazis, the friends ofthe Palestinians.
Ehnic cleansing?? Hebron 1929 when arab thugs murdered dozens of Jews and the British did nothing.
Ethnic cleansing Gaza 1929? Much the same as above. In faact it’s the Arabs who are occupying Gaza andHebron.

I’m not writing this for your sake, because you’re a racist twit like many of the commentators here. I’m writing this for those who’ve happened to stumble upon
this site and have an open mind.
Don’t take my word for it. Do your own research and see who is telling the truth. Unlike the Arab world where any dissenter puts his/her life on the line(And that’s probably atill true in Egypt today)in Israel and the U.S. there is free speech

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By Arabian Sinbad, February 16, 2011 at 11:01 pm Link to this comment

By Robert, February 17 at 3:21 am

“To this day Zionism and all supporters of Israel right or wrong deny there was ever a Zionist proposal for collaboration with Nazi Germany, just as they deny Zionism’s ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1948/49 and on-going; but 45 years after the offer was made in writing, Yehoshafat Harkabi, Israel’s longest serving director of Military Intelligence, made the following observation about it in his book, Israel’s Fateful Hour”:

“Perhaps, for peace of mind, we ought to see this affair as an aberrant episode in Jewish history. Nevertheless, it should alert us to how far extremists may go in times of distress, and where their manias may lead.”
===============================
Thank you Robert for being a one man clearing house of facts, truths and information on the evils of Zionism; more so when reported by good conscientious Jews!

Keep up the good work of truth-digging and keep the evil, fascist Zionists on their toes, scrambling for empty words of falsehoods to sustain their rantings!

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By Robert, February 16, 2011 at 10:21 pm Link to this comment

By walterbard, February 16 at 10:33 pm

“To Robert
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re not one of usual antiSemitic jerks
Yes I have a passing acquaintance with the pseudohistory of selfhating communist Jew Lenni Brenner He was one of the first so called revisionist “historians that supposedly offer new insights.”

~~~~~~

walterbard...when everything else fails to work for your zionist agenda…its the ole zionist’s tactics…antisemitism, attack the author, diversions, deceptive PR & damage control…eh!!!
 

To this day Zionism and all supporters of Israel right or wrong deny there was ever a Zionist proposal for collaboration with Nazi Germany, just as they deny Zionism’s ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1948/49 and on-going; but 45 years after the offer was made in writing, Yehoshafat Harkabi, Israel’s longest serving director of Military Intelligence, made the following observation about it in his book, Israel’s Fateful Hour”:

“Perhaps, for peace of mind, we ought to see this affair as an aberrant episode in Jewish history. Nevertheless, it should alert us to how far extremists may go in times of distress, and where their manias may lead.”

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By James M. Martin, February 16, 2011 at 9:31 pm Link to this comment

Why not “Fear the Judeo-Cruster Brotherhood,” those vampiric forces sucking the life out of humanity with their bogus dogma and attempts to establish theocracy at home.  I am much more worried about the terrorists dismantling our Constitution than any Muslim on earth.

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By OzarkMichael, February 16, 2011 at 8:38 pm Link to this comment

Truedigger, please, draw from your rich storehouse of knowledge and find a link to a map of the Middle East and Europe before the Crusades began. I want you to teach me something.

To those of you like berniem who proclaim the Muslim Brotherhood less fearsome than democracy than American conservative Christians, I have two words for you.

Mohamed Atta

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By truedigger3, February 16, 2011 at 8:25 pm Link to this comment

Re: By Inherit The Wind, February 16 at 10:30 pm


ITW wrote:
“It’s about the Muslim Brotherhood, which truth be told, is getting harder and harder to paint as Egypt’s Taliban, and is looking more and more like Germany’s Christian Democrats”
—————————————————————————
ITW,

The Muslim Brotherhood may not be Egypt’s Talibans but that doesn’t mean evrything will be fine and dandy.
Their primary objective is to establish a Muslim theocracy in Egypt that strictly apply the Koran and the Prophet Muhamad teachings
All aspects of life in Egypt will have to comply with their interpretation of these teachings, from the penal code, the status of women and non Muslims, how to dress and what not to eat and drink, what science and medicine allowed or not, what kind of books are allowed or not etc etc.
There are many factions within the Brotherhood, some of them are very strict and radical and some are moderate, and most of the time the strict and radical win in any power struggle.
Egypt under the Muslim Brotherhood will be a very closed society with very limited freedoms of any sort
with the situation of the religious minorities is prcarious depending on what faction is in power.
There will be lvery imited political opposition allowed if any
Definitely, the Muslim Brotherhood is not like Germany’s Christian Democrats.

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By truedigger3, February 16, 2011 at 7:19 pm Link to this comment

Re: By OzarkMichael, February 16 at 9:01 pm

OzarkMichael wrote:
See folks, everything used to be cool. The Arab world was full of scholars and merchants, when out of the blue the backwater Christians launched the Crusades for no reason.  Ah, that was the whole problem. Now I understand that the Christians are troublemakers, and I can empathize with the mistrust Muslims have.

Just let this suffice to illustrate our history - the word “algebra” is after all Arab.
——————————————————————-
Michael,

There are two REAL reasons and one BULLSHIT reaseon
for the Crusades.
First, the two real reasons for the Crusades:
1) After a warming trend in Europe that lasted for more than 300 years, with good harvests and benign weather, there was population explosion, including LANDLESS feudal princes and nobolity.
The traditions at that time was that the estate will be inherited by the oldest son only.
The land of the near-by Middle East would have provided land to that landless group.
2)Most of the trade, carrying goods from the far East, coveted by “backwater Europe”, passed through the Middle East and Costantnopolos after paying heavy taxes, then continued by sea to Europe. The merachants in Europe, who were mostly Italians from Venice and Genova wanted to save these hefty taxes and add it to their profits.

Second, the bullshit reason for the Crusades:

1) The “Holy Lands” is where Christ lived and was resurrected and shouldn’t be under the control of anyone except Christians!!!

The Crusaders committed horrible atrocities in the Middle East, and nobody escaped their swords, including women, children, very old people and even suckling children, and that was an alien type of warfare for the Arabs who never harmed anyone outside the battle field.


Algebra was named after Abu Gabr El Khwarezmi who invented it. He was an Arab.

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By berniem, February 16, 2011 at 6:39 pm Link to this comment

Personally, I fear less the muslim brotherhood than I do the Coes and their “Family” along with their crazed accolytes such as Coburn, Inhofe, Grassley, Doyle, Ensign, Pitts, Vitter, and Brownback among others as well as their bible thumping evangelical cohorts like Huckabee, Santorum, Palin, O’Donnell,and Pence, as well as the nuts running around with tea bags hanging off their hats and the homicidal “christian” lunatics populating our overly powerful military. Oh, and lets not forget those pious folks who kill doctors performing legal procedures or the goons from Kansas picketing funerals demonstrating their “love” for LGBT folks. This nation has a lot of gall pointing it’s paranoid fingers at others around the world who don’t happen to want to be good little 2nd class citizens who graciously permit the “exceptional” Amerikan Empire to rape and pillage everything of value that it’s corporate plutocrats and political minions feel is theirs to take whenever it deems appropriate! How long will it take for the sentient citizens of this country to realize what a pariah it has become as has been known to the rest of the civilized world for some time?

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By walterbard, February 16, 2011 at 5:33 pm Link to this comment

To Robert
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re not one of usual antiSemitic jerks
Yes I have a passing acquaintance with the pseudohistory of selfhating communist Jew Lenni Brenner He was one of the first so called revisionist “historians that supposedly offer new insights. Basically Brenner cherry picks his facts choosing those that favor his position and ignoring contrary facts. For example he goes on and on about the fate of Hungarian Jewry. The Kastner scandal is well-known in Israel and widely discussed. He was put on trial in Israel in 1954. The Stern gang which Brenner also goes on and on about was a small militia, no more than 500, that spent almost as much time fighting the Haganah as it did the British and the Arab murderers.
Since Hungarian Jewry is mentioned you might want to look up Amin Husseini, the grand Mufti of
Jerusalem from 1922 to 1936. He was not a member of a fringe group but was regarded
as the spiritual and political founder of the so called Palestinian nationalism. Those are
not my words, they’re the words of Yassir Arafat. This “spiritual leader” of the Palestinians
was a personal friend of Heinrich Himmler and at Himmler’s request organized the Hanser
battalion of the Waffen SS. These were the dregs of Moslem society in Bosnia. It was that group
that carried out the massacre of tens of thousands in the Balkans. Not only Jews but also Serbs and Moslems who opposed the Nazis. Funny, Brenner doesn’t mention this. Did Zionist groups deal with the Nazis? Yes. They tried to rescue Jews and so were forced to deal with the devil. Did they encourage the holocaust to promote Zionism. That’s a sickening lie believed only
by anti-Semites. If you examine Brenner’s rantings it’s basically follows the same pattern
of all antisemitc rants about the “international Jew.” Brenner has “Zionists” all over the world conspiring even with the Japanese. All with cherry-picked footnotes. Brenner is a waste of time.
If they were that influential there wouldn’t have been a holocaust.
There has been a tidal wave of false accusations against Israel. As soon as one is rebutted another comes up. It’s part of a big lie campaign that unfortunately is having success.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 16, 2011 at 5:30 pm Link to this comment

Careful everyone:
Soon Robert will have “proof” that Zionists designed the gas chambers and crematoria at Belsen and Dachau.

Then he’ll have “proof” that Zionists engineered the whole Holocaust for Hitler.

Bigots like Robert and Gulam will believe ANYTHING negative about Jews no matter how inane it is because they are so fundamentally twisted by their hatred of Jews they cannot think rationally.

Yet this isn’t about Jews, is it, despite Robert’s one-track mind.

It’s about the Muslim Brotherhood, which truth be told, is getting harder and harder to paint as Egypt’s Taliban, and is looking more and more like Germany’s Christian Democrats.

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By Gulam, February 16, 2011 at 5:07 pm Link to this comment

The hysterics over the Muslim Brotherhood is like a the Chinese getting worked up
over the terrorist potential of the YMCA inciting religious hatred because it is
Christian. It like worrying that SMU is a hotbed of Christian Fundamentalist
radicalism because John Wesley was once labeled a Christian radical by some in
the English press and SMU stands for Southern Methodist University.

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By OzarkMichael, February 16, 2011 at 4:01 pm Link to this comment

Lafayette gives a brief history of how Christendom interacts with Islam :

You are right about the mutual distrust between Christian and Muslim. But why this historical distrust?

Because it has been inculcated since times lost in the past ... perhaps as far back as the Crusades. The Arab World once dominated both learning and trade, whilst Europe was an economic backwater. Science and mathematics had been elevated to a high art - the word “algebra” is after all Arab.

See folks, everything used to be cool. The Arab world was full of scholars and merchants, when out of the blue the backwater Christians launched the Crusades for no reason.  Ah, that was the whole problem. Now I understand that the Christians are troublemakers, and I can empathize with the mistrust Muslims have.

Just let this suffice to illustrate our history - the word “algebra” is after all Arab.

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By rollzone, February 16, 2011 at 3:52 pm Link to this comment

hello. everybody leave. nobody read my rant. i am
writing this for myself.
what happened in Egypt? revolution spawned from
organised social media against brutal and corrupt
authorities. when? after Friday mass. what role was
the Brotherhood, and what influence do they have on
religion? i was not in Friday mass, so i do not know
how the upsurge in protest was related to religion,
or whom was responsible. religion was the tipping
point, and every nation, including ours, fears the
organized power of religion. democracy allows people
to belong to dangerous religion. religion has
interconnected peoples throughout history, in ways
that new social medias are only beginning to
experience. religion is the powerful force that
trembles governments. if governments control
religion, divide the people against each other with
religion, or claim authority from religion- there is
no democracy. our religious freedoms are our best
liberty.

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By gerard, February 16, 2011 at 3:02 pm Link to this comment

“waterbard”?  What a sick code name!  “Quick, Henry, the Flit” (Or are you too young and naive to get the antique pest-control allusion?

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By Robert, February 16, 2011 at 1:53 pm Link to this comment

By walterbard, February 16 at 2:55 pm

“Juan Cole deliberately omits a few facts. The brotherhood had strong ties to the Nazis in the 1930s. In fact they got some of their funds from Germany.”

~~~~~~~~

walterbard...check out Lenni Brenner’s…51 Documents...they may not help you with your zionist PR agenda…!!!

~~~~~~~~~

Zionist Collaboration With the Nazis

     

By Lenni Brenner, ed. Barricade Books, Reviewed by Sara Powell


“It’s no secret that Zionism embraced political expediency to advance the cause of carving Eretz-Israel from the land of its native inhabitants. In his 1983 book, Zionism in the Age of the Dictators, Lenni Brenner shows that 20th century Zionists observed shockingly few limits to that expediency. Not surprisingly, the book received little coverage in the American media. Now, in 51 Documents, Brenner has compiled a wide variety of letters, statements, articles, and judgements-some of which appeared in his earlier book-by a broad array of activists and authors, that documents Zionist cooperation with the Nazis. On the face of it, the notion seems absurd. However, Brenner presents the case-made in many Zionists’ own words-that the Nazi agenda of expelling the Jews from Germany fit nicely with the Zionist plan for enticing those Jews into settling in Palestine and creating a new Jewish nation.

In addition to introductory and concluding chapters, the book is organized into five sections which lead the reader through early, pre-Zionist documents; pre-Holocaust ideological factions; the Holocaust era itself; and a chapter on the Stern Gang and the Nazis. Readers should note that a few documents are not indicative of collaboration in and of themselves, but provide the background to others written in response. These latter do indicate levels of collaboration between Zionists and fascists, both the Nazis in Germany, and those in Mussolini’s Italy. Brenner’s brief explanatory notes at the beginning of each document are helpful, as are the glossary and index.

51 Documents assumes a certain knowledge of Zionist history, and requires a close reading and some deconstructive efforts on the part of the reader. Those willing to commit the time and effort, however, are rewarded with some stunning revelations. The reason some Zionists eschewed the boycott against Hitler’s Germany, for instance, is that they had a financial deal-Ha’avara-with Germany allowing Jews to exchange their wealth for goods to be exported to Palestine at less of a loss, as an incentive to emigrate. Those wondering why Zionists today are so organized and experienced in their public relations efforts discover that these battles have been fought before. Moreover, the section on Nazi and Zionist understandings of “nationality” versus citizenship reveals how German and Israeli practices are based on the same concept.”

~~~~~~~~

Click on links below for the details:


http://www.the7thfire.com/new_world_order/zionism/zionist_collaboration_with_the_nazis.htm


@@@@@

51 Documents:

Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis

by LENNI BRENNER

http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html

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By alturn, February 16, 2011 at 1:40 pm Link to this comment

There is a tendency to call any group that represents the interests of the people terrorists, unless they are in America and called the Tea Party. It is better to allow the people of Egypt sort things out and have faith in the wisdom of the people.

“The process of haves and have-nots in the Middle East continues, but it only came to the forefront against the background of outside cultures penetrating the fabric of the Middle Eastern way of life. Maitreya says: An Arab is supposed to be an Arab, with an Arab culture, an Arab background. The masses remain Arab. The rulers lead a double life. This means that at home they show they are Arabs. Abroad they identify with non-Arabs. This process guarantees a type of aura which makes one fall apart.
Maitreya says: Look at the Sheikhs. They tell their people they defend and nurture their countries with the Arab way of life. But what have they done? The wealth of the nations has been spent on arms, on personal luxuries and investments abroad, while the masses struggle for existence. . .
Maitreya says to these rulers: “It is time for you to go. Government will be by the people and for the people. The wealth of the nation is for the nation. If the nation is deprived of its health and wealth, it will rise up.”
Maitreya has made it clear to various Middle Eastern rulers that although they have tried to involve the Americans, the consequences spell disaster. Even if war takes place, there will ultimately be no sultans, emirs or sheikhs continuing to rule as they do now.
Everywhere, the politicians are frightened. The people will begin to ask questions about the billions spent on arms, which should have been spent on the people.”
- World Teacher Maitreya through an associate as reported by Share International

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By walterbard, February 16, 2011 at 1:01 pm Link to this comment

Pappe is an Israeli who is extremely anti Israel. He has advocated a boycott of Israel.
He is also a lousy historian who accepts anything anti Israel as fact.  The important point
here is that he’s free to babble as much as he wants in Israel, because Israel allows
freedom of speech.  Anyone living in an Arab country could not take a position friendly
to Israel and expect to remain unharmed. It’s very common to cite an Israeli sources because there is free speech.  One can always find an Israeli who will agree with you whether your pro or con Israel. That is one of the prices paid for true free speech. That Israel is apprehensive about Egypt is perfectly reasonable given
the years of racist ideology promulgated by the Moslem Brotherhood. Any country that Western
values should be apprehensive. One thing is certain, in this new Egypt no one will be able to take a stand defending Israel and expect to remain in one piece, while self-hating Israelis
are free to speak their half-wit minds.

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By wbradleyjr1, February 16, 2011 at 12:50 pm Link to this comment

Muslim Brotherhood - KNOWING AND UNDERSTANDING THE HISTORY OF THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD IS THE KEY TO UNDERSTANDING TODAY’S ISLAMIC WAR AGAINST THE WEST. Topics include: “Muslim Brotherhood unites with Hitler’s Third Reich” and “Birth of Al Qaeda
From the Muslim Brotherhood to Osama Bin Laden”

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/mbhood_en.html

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By Robert, February 16, 2011 at 11:05 am Link to this comment

Egypt’s Revolution and Israel: “Bad for the Jews”


By Ilan Pappe


“February 15, 2011 “The Electronic Intifada”— The view from Israel is that if they indeed succeed, the Tunisian and Egyptian revolutions are bad, very bad. Educated Arabs—not all of them dressed as “Islamists,” quite a few of them speaking perfect English whose wish for democracy is articulated without resorting to “anti-Western” rhetoric—are bad for Israel.

Arab armies that do not shoot at these demonstrators are as bad as are many other images that moved and enthused so many people around the world, even in the West. This world reaction is also bad, very bad. It makes the Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and its apartheid policies inside the state look like the acts of a typical “Arab” regime.

For a while you could not tell what official Israel thought. In his first ever commonsensical message to his colleagues, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu asked his ministers, generals and politicians not to comment in public on the events in Egypt. For a brief moment one thought that Israel turned from the neighborhood’s thug to what it always was: a visitor or permanent resident.

It seems Netanyahu was particularly embarrassed by the unfortunate remarks on the situation uttered publicly by General Aviv Kochavi, the head of Israeli military intelligence. This top Israeli expert on Arab affairs stated confidently two weeks ago in the Knesset that the Mubarak regime is as solid and resilient as ever. But Netanyahu could not keep his mouth shut for that long. And when the boss talked all the others followed. And when they all responded, their commentary made Fox News’ commentators look like a bunch of peaceniks and free-loving hippies from the 1960s.

The gist of the Israeli narrative is simple: this is an Iranian-like revolution helped by Al Jazeera and stupidly allowed by US President Barack Obama, who is a new Jimmy Carter, and a stupefied world. Spearheading the Israeli interpretation are the former Israeli ambassadors to Egypt. All their frustration from being locked in an apartment in a Cairean high-rise is now erupting like an unstoppable volcano. Their tirade can be summarized in the words of one of them, Zvi Mazael who told Israeli television’s Channel One on 28 January, “this is bad for the Jews; very bad.”

In Israel of course when you say “bad for the Jews,” you mean the Israelis—but you also mean that whatever is bad for Israel is bad for the Jews all around the world (despite the evidence to the contrary since the foundation of the state).

But what is really bad for Israel is the comparison. Regardless of how all this would end, it exposes the fallacies and pretense of Israel like never before. Egypt is experiencing a peaceful Intifada with the deadly violence coming from the side of the regime. The army did not shoot at the demonstrators; and even before the departure of Mubarak, already seven days into the protests, the minister of interior who directed his thugs to violently crash the demonstrations had been sacked and will probably be brought to justice.

Yes, this was done in order to win time and try to persuade the demonstrators to go home. But even this scene, by now forgotten, can never happen in Israel. Israel is a place where all the generals who ordered the shootings of Palestinian and Jewish anti-occupation demonstrators now compete for the highest post of Chief of the General Staff.

One of them is Yair Naveh, who gave orders in 2008 to kill Palestinian suspects even if they could be peacefully arrested. He is not going to jail; but the young woman, Anat Kamm, who exposed these orders is now facing nine years in jail for leaking them to Israeli daily Haaretz.”

@@@

Click on link for the rest:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27482.htm

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By walterbard, February 16, 2011 at 9:55 am Link to this comment

Juan Cole deliberately omits a few facts. The brotherhood had strong ties to the Nazis in the 1930s. In fact they got some of their funds from Germany. The brotherhood wanted to replace
British imperialism with Islamic imperialism.  It regards Islam as the sole truth and is intolerant
of other religions. (In Egypt many terrorist acts against Coptic Christian have been linked to
the Brotherhood.)  It wants to spread Islam all over the world.  They are the chief sponsors of
anti-Semitic propaganda.  Mein Kampf and the Protocols of Zion have been disseminated by
them. In Egypt The Brotherhood is largely responsible for the animus against Israel,
because they view the Mideast as Moslem lands and therefore any Jewish land
is blasphemy.
And it’s not only Israel , but also Western values in general that they want to destroy.
There so called calls for democracy conform to the doctrine of
taqiyah , lying to promote Islam is permissible. They want to reestablish the Caliphate,
a pan-Islamic government based on Sharia law. All their lip service to reform are mere
tactics until they get into power. Remember, the Nazis were elected into power
and the Brotherhood has studied Nazi tactics along with Nazi racism,plans
for world domination, and Goebbel’s big lie.

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By walterbard, February 16, 2011 at 9:48 am Link to this comment

Moslem Brotherhood: Be afraid be very afraid.

Juan Cole deliberately omits a few facts. The brotherhood had strong ties to the Nazis in the 1930s. In fact they got some of their funds from Germany. The brotherhood wanted to replace
British imperialism with Islamic imperialism.  It regards Islam as the sole truth and is intolerant
of other religions. (In Egypt many terrorist acts against Coptic Christian have been linked to
the Brotherhood.)  It wants to spread Islam all over the world.  They are the chief sponsors of
anti-Semitic propaganda.  Mein Kampf and the Protocols of Zion have been disseminated by
them. In Egypt The Brotherhood is largely responsible for the animus against Israel,
because they view the Mideast as Moslem lands and therefore any Jewish land
is blasphemy.
And it’s not only Israel , but also Western values in general that they want to destroy.
There so called calls for democracy conform to the doctrine of
taqiyah , lying to promote Islam is permissible. They want to reestablish the Caliphate,
a pan-Islamic government based on Sharia law. All their lip service to reform are mere
tactics until they get into power. Remember, the Nazis were elected into power
and the Brotherhood has studied Nazi tactics along with Nazi racism, plans
for world domination, and Goebbels big lie.

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By RayLan, February 16, 2011 at 9:10 am Link to this comment

Oh right a definition of democracy - the ideal being to resolve the almost insurmountable tension between
1. individual freedom and
2. social equality.

1 to the exclusion of 2 is anarchy
2. to the exculsion of 1 is totalitarianism.

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By par4, February 16, 2011 at 9:03 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Professor Cole is right that we shouldn’t fear the MB. Unfortunately we are now loathed by a majority of the worlds population. Creating ‘Banana Republics’ before WW II was bad enough but the Imperial policies since then have turned us into a pariah among nations.

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By RayLan, February 16, 2011 at 8:57 am Link to this comment

Even this discussion has quickly deteriorated into a Christian wacko vs Muslim wacko controversy.
There are fanatics of every dogma and bark. To get all twitchy and sectarian about it, is ahistorical and most importantly irrational - irrationality being the primary fuel of fanaticism.

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By ardee, February 16, 2011 at 8:50 am Link to this comment

as real democracy emerges in Egypt, in Tunisia,...”

What is “real” democracy, by your definition?

Reluctant as I am to feed the enormous ego and distortion machine that is nothing more than an alter ego of grym this question can be answered simply enough. To this definition I would only add that a real democracy would be free of the installed puppetry of the USA that presents a sham of a democratic state at a great cost both to our national treasury and our repute world wide.

But, of course, I do not hope to reach the isolated and close minded Mr. Misplaced Comma......

 


Definition of DEMOCRACY
1a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
2: a political unit that has a democratic government
3 capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the United States <from emancipation Republicanism to New Deal Democracy — C. M. Roberts> (Hmmmm)
4: the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority
5: the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges

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By ardee, February 16, 2011 at 8:39 am Link to this comment

Arabian Sinbad, February 16 at 3:08 am Link to this comment


In your passionate defense of Cole, one that automatically confers validity because of profession for some silly reason, you miss an important point. Cole has been criticized time and again for his inaccurate portrayal of Islam and the politics there.

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By truedigger3, February 16, 2011 at 8:10 am Link to this comment

Re: By rico, suave, February 16 at 3:05 am

rico,suave wrote:
“How many beheadings have there been in the last century in the name of Jesus?”
———————————————————————
rico,

Why don’t you expand your question a little and ask ,how many hundnreds of thousands, in last millenium were murdered or burned on the stack in the name of Jesus who preached love and peace among people?.
You need to read some history, hopefully to shed off some of your chronic prejudices, bigotry and ignorance.
Do you want me to tell you about the murderous brutal crusades, the inquisitions in Spain, the wars between the Catholics and Protestants in Europe or thmurder of the “undeserving” “indigenous heathens” during colonial era and stealing their lands and resources.
Do you want me tell you that even in US of A, people were accused of witchcraft and blasphemy and were hanged in Massaschusetts.
A trip to Spain might help you to see how tolerant and accomaodating the Arabs were, and their great contributions to culture, science and archticture during a time where the rest of Europe was wallowing in ignorance and continuous violence.

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By Lafayette, February 16, 2011 at 5:05 am Link to this comment

LIVE AND LET LIVE

rico ... the terrible wars the US has embarked on in the last century, remember, they weren’t fought in the name of Christian fundamentalism, rather it was rapacious capitalism, racism and imperialism that was to blame, right? And please don’t embarass yourself by saying that they are one and the same thing.

 

But they are if one thinks they are. Meaning that one has been inculcated to think they are.

You are right about the mutual distrust between Christian and Muslim. But why this historical distrust?

Because it has been inculcated since times lost in the past ... perhaps as far back as the Crusades. The Arab World once dominated both learning and trade, whilst Europe was an economic backwater. Science and mathematics had been elevated to a high art - the word “algebra” is after all Arab.

The Ottoman Empire reigned over much of the Middle East and North Africa for seven centuries until it all came apart at the end of the 19th century (and WW1). The Ottomans did not hate the Jews, many of whom flourished in Muslim countries.

“Anti-Semite” is a colossal misnomer when applied to Arabs. Both Arabs and Jews are semitic peoples; their God being one and the same, just called differently.

But, yes, the Muslims are wary of the Christians, whereas the Jews have learned to live (and suffer) amongst the latter.

How many people have died in the name of whatever their God? (How many who believed in the same God that dictated “Thou shalt not kill”?)

Live and let live.

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By gerard, February 16, 2011 at 12:43 am Link to this comment

My dear rico:  “Moral equivalance”?  I was not speaking of “moral equivalence” but of psychological similarities.  Not clever of you to stretch it that way, I must say.  Points to a reason why we so ofen misunderstand, jumping to conclusions.
  As to moral equivalemce—we could argue about that all day. going back in history if we cared to.  The Crusades could keep us busy for several hundred years. (I’ve made something of a study of that period, and when I read that Christian chaplains in Iraq were using Pope Innocent’s phrase “Kill them all! God will know his own.” it curled my hair.  Kids were having tattoos done on their arms and backs to that effect, believing it justified their killing—just in case they had any doubts.)
  And by the way, where did you get the idea that there are fewer “rapacious” Christians than “rapacioius” Muslims?  And the test for rapaciousness was ... ” 
  Such crude judgments are beneath you, Rico. You know very well that religion can be used to justify anything. It’s called “holy war” and though enormous effort has been made for centuries to justify all wars as “holy” to one side or another, or both, the teeth of one holy war are just as long and “rapacious” as those of any other.  (And by the way, I’m a woman, a grandmother who’s been around the block several times and am well acquainted with rapacious capitalism, racism and imperialism too—to my regret.)

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By MeHere, February 15, 2011 at 11:34 pm Link to this comment

Juan Cole makes some good points, but William Pfaff’s article today is by far the best one on the subject of Egypt and our future relationship with the countries in the region.  He doesn’t even mention the Muslim Brotherhood because, in fact, that’s not what we should be discussing now. The most urgent task for the US is to come up with a sound, non-interference policy in regard to the Middle East regardless of how each society decides to be governed. To project the implicit threat that we need to “approve” what they do and prop up oppressive regimes is a sure way to keep driving some groups towards violence. Enough is enough. It’s never been acceptable, and it hasn’t worked the way our rulers keep fantasizing it will.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 15, 2011 at 11:31 pm Link to this comment

A.S.:
ROFL!  Thanks, man! I may not agree with you about some things, but sometimes you have some SERIOUS style!
Don’t lose that!
ITW.

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By truedigger3, February 15, 2011 at 10:42 pm Link to this comment

Re: By Arabian Sinbad, February 16 at 3:08 am comment

Arabian Sinbad wrote:
Juan Cole is a professor at a major university and is considered an expert in Middle Eastern politics and culture.
———————————————————————-
Arabian Sinbad,

Really. Yes, Juan Cole is a professor at a major university, but he might have an “agenda”. Right!!
Knowledge and integrity don’t always walk together.

There is no doubt that after the initial wave of demonstrations by middle class young people, demanding jobs and lower food prices, the Muslim Brotherhood hijacked the situation. Many of the faces became faces of older poor men with the “Brotherhood beards” and the dark callouses on their foreheads from too much praying!!
I lived in Egypt for a while and I know the culture and I know what I am talking about!

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By Arabian Sinbad, February 15, 2011 at 10:08 pm Link to this comment

By truedigger3, February 16 at 2:47 am

“I am not sure, from where did Juan Cole get his information.”
================================================
Your rantings against Juan Cole are really irritating me! In your ignorance, you are no match for Juan Cole! Juan Cole is a professor at a major university and is considered an expert in Middle Eastern politics and culture.

Have mercy on yourself, and don’t keep displaying your stupidity and ignorance!

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By rico, suave, February 15, 2011 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment

gerard:

Your moral equivalence is charming, and naive for such an old man as yourself.

How many beheadings have there been in the last century in the name of Jesus? How many suicide bombers have died with “Jesus is Lord” on their lips? I’m thinking your random Muslim has far less to fear from a fundamentalist Christian than a Christian has to fear from a fundamentalist Muslim.

And before you rattle off all the terrible wars the US has embarked on in the last century, remember, they weren’t fought in the name of Christian fundamentalism, rather it was rapacious capitalism, racism and imperialism that was to blame, right? And please don’t embarass yourself by saying that they are one and the same thing.

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By truedigger3, February 15, 2011 at 9:47 pm Link to this comment

I am not sure, from where did Juan Cole get his information. Most of the articles in the papers, and the talking heads in televison, say that the Muslim Brotherhood is not that bad and it had changed its old violent ways and it will be “good” from now on!!!

The US will deliver Egypt in a silver platter to the Muslim Brotherhood. They will enjoy the “delicious meal”, until their time comes, to be stabed in the back, and kicked in the ass and their carcass dragged uncermoniously to the dust bin of history.
Eventually the Muslim Brotherhood will suffer the same fate of all the US previous “friends”, ie puppets. They are no better than Nigo Diem of Vietnam, Marcus of the Phillippines, the Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein, Musharaf of Pakistan and last but not least their nemesis, Husni Muabarak.
The only entity that can stand against the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is the High Military Council, but most likely they are puppets themselves, but they might wise up, but that is very a risky and difficult road to follow!.
There is a big possibility that the M.E will go through a very ugly dark period in the comming years.

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By gerard, February 15, 2011 at 9:31 pm Link to this comment

I still think we had better learn to understand, deal with, and try to influence our Christian fundamentlists here at home before we get too upset about Muslim fundamentalism.

Both are “behind the times” by about 1000 years, and there are socio-economic and cultural reasons for that.  Not to mention psychological hang-ups.  In addition, fundamentalism is encouraged by certain manipulators of public opinion. Inculcated fear is a basic part of the fundamentalist mind-set, so it is easy to prey on those fears and insecurities to keep “true believers” (courtesy Eric Hoeffer) both agitated and self-righteous.

Many people are exasperated by fundamentalists’  resistance to change, but most people just avoid facing into the problem. Instead they avoid contact, but that solves nothing.(It takes less than 5 minutes for a fundamentalist to put me into a rage, so I know whereof I speak!) 

It is not easy to replace the comfort that comes from blind faith.

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By rico, suave, February 15, 2011 at 9:26 pm Link to this comment

truedigger3:

“Many Egyptians think that with Mubarak gone, everyone will get a hefty raise, and the unemployed will get jobs and every family will get an apartment in the very immediate future!!!”

Sort of like what a lot of Democrats thought with Bush gone in 2008.

I’m guessing it’ll work out the same for Egypt as for here.

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By truedigger3, February 15, 2011 at 8:53 pm Link to this comment

Juan Cole wrote:
“There is no indication from the opinion polling in Egypt, moreover, that it would be able to dominate parliament even if that were its goal”
——————————————————————-

That is a lot of nonesense.  Large section of the Egyptian people are simple religious people with little or no education who fall prey very easily to religious rhetoric and sloganism and the Muslim Brotherhood are masters and experts in using that.
Many Egyptians think that with Mubarak gone, everyone will get a hefty raise, and the unemployed will get jobs and every family will get an apartment in the very immediate future!!! Naturall this will not happen, resulting in a new wave of frustration and discontent and that is when the Muslim Brotherhood will step in and exploit the situation. Now they are just in a holding pattern.

Juan Cole also wrote:
“The Brotherhood was begun in 1928 by Hassan al-Banna, a schoolteacher, as a revivalist movement that also protested the influence of British colonialism.”
———————————————————————

That is true in appearance only but not in the facts.
The British and the Egyptian Royal family, in 1928, helped create and nuture the Muslim Brotherhood as a conterbalance to a growing secular nationalist movement. It is the old story of divide and rule.
With the victory of the communists in Russia, the Muslim Brotherhood and all Islamist groups in the Middle East were used as a barrier against the spread of communism in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood is fiercely against what they call “Godless” and atheist communists.
During the cold war, there was a long history of cooperation and collabration between the Muslim Brotherhood and CIA and MI5 against the “Godless communism”.
The CIA and MI5 used the Muslim Brotherhood in repeated attempts to topple Nasser of Egypt and they were used in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union.

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By McTN, February 15, 2011 at 7:58 pm Link to this comment

This fear of the Muslim Brotherhood is in fact the same kind of fear used to wage war on Iraq, the very same fear created against Barack Obama, the same fear manufactured against all two of the Black Panthers, the same fear that animates racism. 

It’s the very same story, deconstructed.

“The beautiful little children, golden ringlets cascading down their back, were told to hide in the basement until their parents told them to come out. The Dark Men are coming and they mean to do all of us harm.  They’ll rape you, scalp you, then huff and puff and blow our house down.”

This bogeyman story has been circulated by both Republicans and Democrats.  It’s been fed to the news media whose “informed” reporters ask their guests, “well what about the Muslim Brotherhood. Are you scared that they might take over Egypt; they are the only group that is organized.” 

It is offensive.  And it is insulting.  These people, the people of Egypt, provide us with an important gateway to the Middle East.  It would behoove us to be nice to these people and stop insulting and degrading them; we need them. 

And it would also pay to remember that Egypt is a sovereign nation and that ultimately it can do whatever it wants as the country decides.  You hear news media and their guests discussing Egypt as if it’s a colony.  No wonder mideast people dislike Americans.  Too many on tv are disgracefully disrespectful—I wouldn’t allow my boss to talk about me in that tone.  All of that bogeyman crap is broadcast on the public and international airwaves—if you were Egyptian, how would you feel seeing some pompous official talking about you like you were retarded?

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By Arabian Sinbad, February 15, 2011 at 7:36 pm Link to this comment

By eugene, February 15 at 7:15 pm

“As an aging American, I have made the long journey from a young high schooler"s naive belief in America and the “American way” to a total lack of faith in this country.  We care nothing about people anywhere else and certainly don’t care about our own nor have we ever as far as I’m concerned.  One has to simply look at Obama’s budget to see that.  And I was an Obama supporter.”
==============================================
Dear Eugine:

Thank you for your courageous words of truth! I salute your mature judgment and free spirit, and instead of coming from an “aging American” as you say, yours are best representatives of what “youthful Americans” should learn to be. This is the best way to liberating America from the tyranny of its current misguided political-military-industrial complex and set her free in a progressive system of “by the people, for the people.”

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By Arabian Sinbad, February 15, 2011 at 7:20 pm Link to this comment

I salute Juan Cole’s mastery of the facts in the service of truth. Every word he wrote shines out with truth.

Beware ignorant ones to contradict anything he wrote lest you expose your ignorance! Just get good free education and count your blessings!

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By pyrrhon, February 15, 2011 at 7:16 pm Link to this comment

Inherit the Wind—I don’t think that Cole is saying anything of the sort.  He is saying one man - Andy McCarthy - is spreading lies to the media about the association.  Cole is repudiating these lies in no uncertain terms.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 15, 2011 at 3:45 pm Link to this comment

Eugene,

I stand corrected.  Of course, what you are saying is that Mencken’s “Boob-oisie” is all listening to Fox Noise and the AM radio hate-mongers.

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By RayLan, February 15, 2011 at 2:48 pm Link to this comment

If the Muslim Brotherhood did not exist it would be necessary to invent one.

(So the US warmongers can realize their wet dreams)

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By eugene, February 15, 2011 at 2:15 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

As an aging American, I have made the long journey from a young high schooler"s naive belief in America and the “American way” to a total lack of faith in this country.  We care nothing about people anywhere else and certainly don’t care about our own nor have we ever as far as I’m concerned.  One has to simply look at Obama’s budget to see that.  And I was an Obama supporter. 

I was a pilot during Vietnam and as the Air Force graduated ever more unquailified pilots to fill cockpits, we called them “cannon fodder”  I now believe all people, below a certain class, are simply cannon fodder to the American Elite.  We simply don’t matter.  We’re purely numbers. Votes to be manipulated.  And contrary to “inherit the wind”, I hear the anti Muslim Brotherhood message daily.  The masses of America don’t read the New York Times or much of anything else for that matter. It’s the mass nightly media that they listen too.  It’s what the mass media is saying that matters.  The daily chatter of Beck and the like ARE the American mass media.  Remember nearly 50% of Americans can’t read a newspaper and understand what they’ve read.  On the local news I hear “radical” Muslim Brotherhood. I’ve never heard “radical” Christian Right.  My neighbor rants of how the “Muslims are trying to take over our country” and “infiltrate our schools”.

My own relatives can’t be bothered with much of anything. Way too busy listening to Rush and Beck.

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By gerard, February 15, 2011 at 1:18 pm Link to this comment

“Turkey and Indonesia. In both countries the fundamentalist religious tendency has been liberalized and domesticated by its participation in the parliamentary process,”  says Cole>
  We need to know specifically how, because it woud help us deal with our own fundamentalists here. What is “projection” in psychological terms?  Why do people use it as a defense?  What helps to prevent it?  What social structures promote it?  Tend to decrease it?  Why do people generally fear and resent change unless they institute it themselves? Is resistance alwayss a bad thing?  Etc. etc. etc.
  Until we understand it, we can’t be effective against it.

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By Lafayette, February 15, 2011 at 1:02 pm Link to this comment

In both countries the fundamentalist religious tendency has been liberalized and domesticated by its participation in the parliamentary process.

So, why has this not happened in America? ;^)

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By gerard, February 15, 2011 at 12:56 pm Link to this comment

“,,,Turkey and Indonesia. In both countries the fundamentalist religious tendency has been liberalized and domesticated by its participation in the parliamentary process.”
  Might be a good idea to devote some time and space in this article to detailing how tis happened—what caused attitudes to liberalize, how did the “parliamentary process” aid in the liberalization?  What other elements in the society played a part?
  We need to understand such detailsl in some depth. Just the mere statement is not helpful.  For example: How can we here in “white Christian America”
liberalize our “fundamentalists”—something we very much need to understand and work with?  We need to know how “projection” (in psychological terms) works, and why.  We need to learn how to detect it in ourselves and how to help “projectors” recognize it in themselves.  Etc.

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By magus12, February 15, 2011 at 12:52 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The movements in Tunisia and Egypt have been breathtaking and profoundly admirable.  However, it is far too soon to know how things will shake out in either country.  Today, the BBC reported that hundreds (if memory serves) came ashore in Italy seeking asylum.  Were they the dregs of those toppled?  Probably, but the situation in Tunisia is still far too murky - protests against the people trying to forge a new government are ongoing.  And it is important to note the Egyptian military’s efforts to clear Liberation Square and, more ominously, its moves against labor unions. 

I don’t know anything for sure about the Muslim Brotherhood.  I have no way of knowing.  All I know is that they’ve been banned as a party since the 1920s in Egypt.  I reserve judgment until the fog of ongoing events finally clears. 

Don’t make the mistake of getting on the bandwagon too soon.  I couldn’t be happier for the Tunisian and Egyptian people that their respective tyrants are gone from power.  I cross my fingers in fervent hope that their demands for a full spectrum democracy inclusive of all sides is realized.  When one looks at history, the mournful fact is that good outcomes from peoples’ revolutions are more often tragic than salutary.  Given the obvious shortcomings of the American revolution (anyone but white men), ours has still been about the best outcome I can think of.  And I deeply fear a new American revolution today because the fascist reactionaries are so vocal, thanks to the corporate media, and collectively dumb as a box of rocks. 

As for Egypt, Tunisia, the rest of the Middle East under the thumbs of their own tyrants, from our lips to God’s ear:  Let the people find their ways to legitimate, inclusive, peaceful and prosperous outcomes.

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By pyrrhon, February 15, 2011 at 11:45 am Link to this comment

We can be reasonably sure that the Office of Special Plans or what ever they call themselves now, is at work planning to dominate the new election in Egypt to assure that the new leader will be “friendly” to the US.

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By M L, February 15, 2011 at 11:45 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Stereotyping muslims as evil and out to get us is out of the ole Cheney/Rove play book instilling fear in the hearts and minds of the American people. War on Terror/Axis of Evil - terms right out of the playbook.

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By rico, suave, February 15, 2011 at 9:41 am Link to this comment

Anybody here really think the Egyptian Army will let the Mulsim Brotherhood even close to the levers of power?

ardee:

” as real democracy emerges in Egypt, in Tunisia,...”

What is “real” democracy, by your definition?

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By Big B, February 15, 2011 at 8:29 am Link to this comment

I was not surprised at all by the difference in portrayal of Egypt from the US based MSM and Europe and the Middle east. In europe and the ME, this was called a “revolution” from the first day. In the USA, however, it was framed as a “revolt” by a few disgruntled youth groups (I remember watching CNN one morning and the underlying narrative was one of “how dare they protest against OUR client dictator?”) One doesn’t like to sink to the old argument of zionist influence in the US MSM, but sometimes…

And the writers final conclusion that Mubarak’s regime did not work is ridicules. It worked for thirty years! Despots have always proven to be political cockroaches, even when backed into a corner, most manage to live yet another day. (and the full backing of the US/Isreali military industrial complex sure doesn’t hurt).

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By ardee, February 15, 2011 at 7:22 am Link to this comment

I find myself in agreement with a Juan Cole article, in itself a rare occurrence frankly. The further point made here but left mostly unaddressed is that the foreign policy of the USA is not based upon love of democracy, upon a desire for basic human rights nor is it designed to bring democracy and democratic institutions to fruition. The recommendation of our President that the new government of Egypt be turned over to Omar Sulieman, a known torturer and crony of Mubarek, plainly shows this to be true.

Our policies and actions serve only our own selfish interests and the needs of our business community. Now some may say that this is the reality and that a nation must safeguard its own interests in order to flourish. To this I would say, look around and tell me honestly if these policies have proven to accomplish that end. I think not.

We are a pariah to most of the world and, as real democracy emerges in Egypt, in Tunisia, in South and Central America we will find ourselves increasingly isolated, as we deserve to be until and unless real democracy comes to this nation of ours.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 15, 2011 at 7:21 am Link to this comment

The author begins on a false assumption: That the entire MSM equates the Muslim Brotherhood with Al Qaeda.

Now, unless he’s restricted himself to Fox Noise, AM talk radio, and the 700 club, it should be damned obvious that from the NYTimes to the Huffington Post and even MSNBC that the TRUE main-stream media has been saying anything but….

But Juan Cole never lets inconvenient facts clutter up his “truth”

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