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Denunciation and Disruption: The Vision That Drives Occupy Wall Street

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Posted on Oct 25, 2011
AP / Mary Altaffer

By Christopher Ketcham

It’s 4:45 p.m. on Saturday, Oct. 15, the day Occupy Wall Street went global. The march in Manhattan is twin pronged on 6th Avenue, several blocks long on the east and west sidewalks of the street. It flows as juggernautish and loud and flashing as a flood in a canyon. The police don’t know what to do except keep it on the sidewalk, barricade it off the street with a line of scooters and hundreds of foot cops and dozens of cop vans directed by the dreaded White Shirts. These latter are the captains, the field commanders, feared because in the five weeks the occupiers have been at Zuccotti Park, clawing into the financial district with no intention of departure, the White Shirts have done the most cawing into bullhorns, have seemed the most pissed off about the occupation, and have shown the most willingness to bust heads and punch kids and break out the mace and the pepper spray when faced with the threat of young women.

I get swept in the boiling mass on the east sidewalk next to a man in a white linen suit coat who chews on a cigar and is chiding the cops mercilessly. “What’s next, officers? How about planting season? Time to plant drugs on these people!”

“Keep tawkin,” says a detective.

“Randy Credico,” says the man in the linen suit, turning to me. “Activist, political comedian. Ran against Chuck Schumer in 2010.” A little guy, spry, a cynic who likes to dress up in public as Diogenes, a New Yorker with one of those sinewy New York accents. We shake hands. Then the drums are upon us, the banners—“Revolt” and “Generation Revolution” and “Wall Street: The Enemy of Humanity”—and the shouting: “We! Are! The 99 percent!”

The goal today is the convergence at Times Square, where it’s said 20,000 people are already waiting.

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The goal tomorrow is the toppling of the 1 percenters—the Wall Streeters, the socially useless financiers, the bankers, the hedge funders, the derivatives traders, the corporate lawyers, the big-moneyed class that, in a more muscular age of progressivism, say, a hundred years ago, would be denounced as the parasite class. The parasites in New York, at last count in 2007, took for themselves close to 45 percent of all income in the city. Forty-five percent of all income going to roughly 34,000 households. The occupiers know their addresses, and in recent weeks have visited their doors in a most disrespectful manner to make known that the parasite class is not welcome anymore.

That’s a good start, the act of shaming and ridicule. How the toppling of the parasites is functionally to be accomplished, the machinations needed to smash their power and put them on a rocket ship to an airless planet, is as yet unknown. Nor does anyone here much care that it’s unknown. What matters on a day like this is morale, and to find morale means to gather en masse to make a mess of the normal state of affairs—the politics of disruption for its own sake. The Occupy Wall Street movement has collaborators in dozens of cities—Occupy Chicago and Occupy Los Angeles and Occupy Seattle—but it is the occupation in New York, the most regressive city in the nation, to which Occupiers nationwide look for inspiration. The enemy is nested in New York, and it is here the battle is to be joined.

On the west side of 6th Avenue, a dashingly handsome black man in a white do-rag and corduroy jacket leads the flood. I find out later his name is Hero Vincent, a New Yorker, just 21 but seeming much older, a veteran at disruption. He gestures to his counterpart on the east sidewalk in an array of cryptic hand signals. Together they stop the march—who knows why, perhaps for the hell of it, perhaps to show they can. The police are hysterical in their bullhorns: “Keep moving! Keep moving!” No one moves. Vincent savors the stoppage, smiles gigantically—a flashing toothy calming smile you can see a hundred feet away—and raises his fist, which stretches out pointing north. The flood is back on.

Now 28th Street, 29th, 34th, Herald Square and Macy’s—the parting of the shoppers. They gawk, they wonder, some of them cry out in support, some are gripping grab bags of new-bought junk thinking the mob will rob them. The occupiers answer: “Join us, brothers and sisters! Join us! YOU. ARE. THE 99 PERCENT!”

But they don’t join.

A great moaning suddenly fills the air—Hero Vincent has been snatched by the White Shirts. The occupiers turn as one and chant: “Let him go! Let him go!”

In a flash, Credico has broken through the scooter barricade, is across the street, dashing among the White Shirts, his face grotesquely twisted, the cigar gripped tight, as if it would scatter all authority, the officers surrounding him, jabbing and pushing at him though he’s done nothing but speak his mind and wave the cigar. He’s demanding the reason for Vincent’s arrest. (I find Vincent later that night, at Zuccotti Park, and he tells me he was arrested for “obstructing traffic.”)


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By heterochromatic, November 7, 2011 at 1:57 pm Link to this comment

WiP—-defend the right to information and make them defend secrecy.. challenge
the need for laws about secrecy and demand the public re-examination of Cold
War secrecy doctrine in a post-Cold War era.

defend Assange——maybe not so much…...he’s not all that worthy.. let’s defend
his rights, not him personally except as it suits the greater good.

let him answer questions about his personal conduct and we’ll help protect him
against attempts to convict him under espionage laws.

it’s the public’s rights, not Assange, that are important…

Report this
John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, November 7, 2011 at 12:58 pm Link to this comment

Hetero, Yea, I think I see your point, but, I’d suggest rather than defend Assaunge, go offensive and attack the corporate creeps who we know damn well are operating behind the scenes to create every legal trouble they can.  This is a tough, tough thing to do because they’re faceless ‘gray suits’.  They operate with impunity withing the perceived comfort of their corporate existence. 

Defending Assange is a sort of necessary evil to empower the decent people working along the ‘gray suits’ so they will feel empowered to leak evidence of any and all poor corporate behavior. 

Hey, if you’re running an above board corporation, you have nothing to fear, right?  Turn their privacy arguments back on them and see how they like it.  We want a world where, when some mid level corporate type sees something that he/she knows is BS, and his conscience bothers him, he’s free to leak the pertinent documentation without thinking he’ll he ‘Assanged.’

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By Raoul, November 7, 2011 at 11:11 am Link to this comment

“because I , and others”

Multiple personalities do not count as ‘others’. ROFL

Oh my Gawd, but you make it SSSOOOO easy… LOL

Nothing here to see folks, must move along please….

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By heterochromatic, November 7, 2011 at 11:05 am Link to this comment

WiP===thank you indeed, but I thought that suggesting that Assange doesn’t
seem to be facing the prospect of trial and imprisonment in the US might be a
contribution to the discussion of the importance of defending the man.

Report this

By ardee, November 7, 2011 at 10:42 am Link to this comment

Raoul, November 7 at 6:39 am

You are truly a legend in your own mind. I doubt that I am the only one here, however, who sees you for what you are,namely; a childish little unschooled and inexperienced political hack.

Your political philosophy, lost on purpose I think because I , and others, have exposed your politics as simply ridiculous, is by your own definition, to push others to do what you then proclaimed you would not do.

You may continue to prattle and betray your callow youthfulness and your lack of credentials all you wish. In fact I urge you not to stop at all.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, November 7, 2011 at 10:14 am Link to this comment

I guess OWS cannot have their own float in the Macy’s Day Thanksgiving parade, because it may seem a tad hypocritical, even Republican like and the possibility some people might think OWS had become a right wing movement like Tea Baggers?

I would like to see an OWS float in the parade, maybe with an apt theme depicting Uncle Sam being buggered by Daddy Starbucks! ... How about a float with bunch of people holding up 99 percent signs being trampled, gassed and billy clubbed by cops like seals in the North Sea? Or showing a Highrise buildings looking down on tents riddled with the disenfranchised huddled masses,...oh wait this is OWS!

We cannot get the money out, because I have been told it would be against the first Amendment to the Constitution by a little know Constitutional Scholar. Though there is a group or groups who are attempting to have a new Constitutional amendment, this might be one prudent goal for OWS and actually any person not of the 1 percent!

Get the money out!

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By Raoul, November 7, 2011 at 6:39 am Link to this comment

The truth bears repetition:

Actually without realizing it you misquoted Goebbels and Goering who both said, somewhat differently, ‘in order to have propaganda succeed you have to repeat the lie over and over again until it’s accepted as truth’

So once more, thank you for sticking your foot, into your own mouth. ROFL

In case what I’ve stated has gone over your head, which more than likely it has, because your twisted some views of mine around - this does not suddenly make what you exclaim as ‘truth’. No more than the fiction pushed onto us by other right wingers in the past. And I used the term ‘other’ intentionally. Why? Once more, your modus operandi shows the interesting similarities in how you attack and how they do the same. Still wanna play some more? (G)

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By ardee, November 7, 2011 at 6:10 am Link to this comment

The truth bears repetition:

ardee, November 6 at 5:59 pm Link to this comment

Raoul, November 6 at 4:41 pm

You advocated the breaking up of the Thanksgiving Day parade, and subsequently have made it clear that you,yourself, will take no part therein. A coward and a liar is what you are. You have lost all semblance of credibility , excepting in your own mind of course.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, November 7, 2011 at 5:53 am Link to this comment

Hetero….  I just grabbed a couple quick links to get you started.  Take it from there and contribute. 

The status is essential as I said, he’s waiting in jail.  The facts behind the BOA stuff might or might not be out there, it’s obviously chicken-and-egg.  If more of their current internal memo’s were leaked, we might (or might not find) they are involved in pressuring governments to hush up Assange and his ilk.

In any case, why don’t you go and build on what others have found instead of sitting back, criticizing and asking to be spoon fed perfect information?  Do your fair share instead of bitching.  Are you a freeloader?  If so, I have a business for you….investment banking.

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By Leefeller, November 6, 2011 at 11:09 pm Link to this comment

Terry P. being an unregistered commenter means you are disenfranchised from quicker posting of your comments, recommend you become a registered commenter otherwise you will always feel like your being punked!

heterochromatic, “a unsuccessful
record in electing candidates that share your POV
isn’t disenfranchisement at all.”  Not even my point of view! Getting to vote for the candidates who happen to have the most money fed into their campaign from who knows where, seems like disenfranchisement to me!

As for my comparison being poor, well it may need a bit of touch up, lets just say it is a work in disenfranchisement!

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By Shenonymous, November 6, 2011 at 10:02 pm Link to this comment

terry p, I have to be gone for a spell but I wanted to let you know
that your post has shown up.  I think you have added a nice and
calm element to the discussion.  I received email notices that you
posted three.  You are unregistered which is why it takes a long
time to show up.  Unregistered posters are held up, but the
comments usually show up eventually.  You might consider
registering.  Comments are posted almost immediately unless
there is a clog in the TD spigot.  Then it is just a few minutes. 
I will read your posts soon, but have to go too right now.  Ciao.

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By heterochromatic, November 6, 2011 at 6:46 pm Link to this comment

the link leads to stuff from Dec 2010 when there WAS
talk about indicting him for something or other.


AFAIK….the talk   just   petered   o u t.

if anyone has any real and current info….please
post.


thank you anyway ardee…...but I’m quite interested
in ACTUAL information, not outdated rumors.

you may stop holding up your finger….sit on it
awhile, eh

Report this

By Raoul, November 6, 2011 at 6:28 pm Link to this comment

“You advocated the breaking up of the Thanksgiving Day parade,”

Right, through non violence civil disobedience. So far, so good.

“and subsequently have made it clear that you,yourself, will take no part therein.”

You forgot the 3rd person as in ‘I’ as in me, myself, and I would not participate. LOL I guess one is not allowed to make a suggestion for others to do?

” A coward and a liar is what you are.”

I believe better English would be “I think you are a coward and liar”. After all my overly medicated idiot savant, a disjointed sentence structure is indicative of manic depressive behavior which I think best describes how strident you’ve become. (I must have REALLY struck a nerve or two but I DID warn you about playing in my play pen)..

“You have lost all semblance of credibility , excepting in your own mind of course.”

Credibility to whom? An obviously very mentally disturbed being such as you? And I really don’t hae much credibililty in my own mind regarding myself. You see, I’ve studied at the school of Socrates’ Humility. Case in point - when the Delphi Oracle exclaimed to Socrates that ‘he was the wisest person she’d ever met’, he just shrugged it off by saying that it wasn’t that he was as wise as the fact that others were so dumb which made him seem wise (a very loose paraphrase by me).

Now please take your Glenn Close aka Fatal Attraction personality somewhere where you may be able to snow someone not wise to sick people like you. You bore me. In fact, if I didn’t know any better I’d think you were a right wing neocon - your modus operandi is so much like theirs - twist an opponent’s words, change the subject, and attack. Others have already said this about you so I won’t belabor the point.

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By ardee, November 6, 2011 at 6:03 pm Link to this comment

For those serious about US interest in extradition of Assange to face espionage charges:

http://www.bing.com/search?q=US+legal+attempts+to+extradict+Assange&form=MOZSBR&pc=MOZI

This is a jumping off point only.

For those disinterested in the truth and only wishing to turn honest inquiry and discussion into typical right wing obstructionism and lies, well, guess which finger I’m holding up?

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By ardee, November 6, 2011 at 5:59 pm Link to this comment

Raoul, November 6 at 4:41 pm

You advocated the breaking up of the Thanksgiving Day parade, and subsequently have made it clear that you,yourself, will take no part therein. A coward and a liar is what you are. You have lost all semblance of credibility , excepting in your own mind of course.

Report this

By heterochromatic, November 6, 2011 at 5:46 pm Link to this comment

WiP—thanks for the info…there’s also some oretty good stuff on this site.

Assange is going to Swden to answer questions….... about personal stuff

I’m unaware that there’s any indictment of him in the US.  there was talk about
some violation of the espionage act, but convicting a non-citizen under that
seems like a stretch.

if he has been indicted here, please advise.

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By Shenonymous, November 6, 2011 at 5:45 pm Link to this comment

Thank you What Is Progress, November 6 at 4:51 pm. I appreciate
your making clear what was oddly said.  I do appreciate your doing
that.  I have enjoyed our dialogue and hope to continue but have to
go for a few days.  I’ll most likely catch up on another forum by then.
Have a good life.  Buona fortuna, and the same to Assange!

I don’t think he has committed any crime re: Wikileaks for which
he could be indicted and imprisoned. For his other alleged crimes
well, I don’t know that much about the women in Sweden business.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, November 6, 2011 at 5:33 pm Link to this comment

Hetero - http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/julian-assange

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/03/business/03wikileaks-bank.html?pagewanted=all

Subliminal message: threaten Bank of America (or any other big player) and we’ll get you.  Very clever though getting Sweden to do the dirty work.  Though, it is certainly possible Assange is a nasty rapist, so It’s very tough to side with defending ‘his kind’.  ‘His kind’ not meaning rapists, but people who are facilitating the release of information regarding corporate or governmental misbehavior.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, November 6, 2011 at 5:24 pm Link to this comment

My information may be old/outdated, but I thought he was in British custody awaiting extradition to Sweden on a charge of failing to use a condom.  From there, will he go free, or be sent to Rome (the USA) in this inquisition?  He’s in the system.

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By heterochromatic, November 6, 2011 at 5:15 pm Link to this comment

who’s sending him to prison and for what?

I doubt that there is any way that he could be found guilty of a serious felony in a
trial in the US.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, November 6, 2011 at 4:51 pm Link to this comment

She, you say, “Moreover, you need to make clear from your implication that I have any affinity with the Tea Party/Republican ideology.” — Too bushed to reply to the rest of the post at present, but when I wrote ‘your Tea Party values’ it was horribly, horribly worded.  I was using ‘your’ not meaning you personally, but the general ‘you’(r).  Sorry ‘bout that.  I’d be pissed too.

But, you know who you’re talking too, right?  Of course I know at least your not a ‘rightie’.  I won’t be more specific than that.  Not looking to set you off. (<:

I think if I may pull the bone out of your 2. post, it’s that danger of a wikileak outlet being too easy a place to put out slanderous, or just plain old factual but personal information.  Privacy right’s sort of violations.  Lack of prudence/respect for individual stuff.  Valid concern.  Related point: I can get extensive dossiers on anybody right now for a bit of money and/or knowing where to dig.  Egalitarianism of information is certainly an issue, and at present, the connected and wealthy can get any-f&cking;-thing in that department.  Not to say that wikileaking my or your personal information all over the web would solve anything, it would make bad worse.  I agree completely that in a ‘leakier’ world, there must be restraint.  The question of what are the priorities in restraint going to be is important.  It ties in to our overall level of respect our society has for the individual.  I would hope OWS and other efforts would increase our appreciation for this.  You know, us being numbers?  Sheeple? database entries, consumers?  Everything but We the People, huh? 


-hetero—they’re going to send him to prison.  At least bankrupt him.  Make an example of him.

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By Raoul, November 6, 2011 at 4:41 pm Link to this comment

Ardee,
Please go back on your meds - you are making even a bigger horse’s arse out of yourself than what I and others have already spoken about. To wit:
1. What violence are you talking about that I supposedly expoused? Protesting a lousy parade or even trying to walk with it or even disrupting it with one’s body, aka civil disobedience, isn’t the same as tossing a bomb or firing a gun. I realize someone heavily medicated might have perception and/or apatial problems attemping to discern what one writes but you are really going to the extemes here.
Please go play with someone else in your sandbox. I hardly think you can really go at it on me and please don’t try to take advantage because I earlier expressed pity for you. If you keep taking my name in vain I shall have no other choice than to give you a good thrashing via words, not violence, comprende? LOL

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By terry p, November 6, 2011 at 3:29 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I’ve been moderated again.

I can see no good reason for it.

I feel left out.

I can’t remember how long it has been since I commented on TD until recently. I do remember having been ignored a few years ago as it seems I am now. If my comments don’t appear today 11/06/11 this will be my last.

I did enjoy it and felt somewhat part of the discussion.

If you see my comment Shenonymos I’ll say thanks for responding to my suggestion to read the Book “The Web of Debt” by Ellen Brown. There is no question in my mind that this book exposes the problems and has at least the best solution to our economy and even the world’s economy.

Of course that don’t solve the problem of over population, the environment and knowing what freedoms must be curbed in order to survive global warming. A good world economy would cause another explosion of population especially if all economies were fixed. The race to be the richest would continue. Dictators can’t solve these kinds of problems but only make them worse. Profit oriented corporations can’t either. Only education can, which should be completely free for all 7 billion people. 

There are laws that are very irrational that might help save us if fixed. An example would be legalizing industrial hemp which is Ralph Nadar’s campaign now. Instead of ruining the rain forest hemp harvests could take the place of cutting trees and it is an easy crop to grow. Our entire legal system needs a massive simplification geared for the Main Street rather than Wall Street. 

There isn’t time to waste according to James Hanson, the climate expert.

Anyway, Yawl be good and try working together a little bit. I wonder if an intellectual conversation can be had without having to insult someone or two. Not as much fun maybe;?)I get it.

&

I gota git

tp:?) & PBWY(peace be with yawl)

PS:She, I liked Carl Sagan too and his book, “Contact”. It was much better than the movie. I miss him. Remember the way he pronounced “STUFF” and “B’illions”?

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By Shenonymous, November 6, 2011 at 2:51 pm Link to this comment

I suppose if it is a war between turds, the smell would be to high
heaven, if there were a heaven. Seems you have manufactured an
opposition between Assange and the banks at any rate, and I cannot
bring myself to agree that two stinks makes one of them less stinky.
If one had to judge which has the worst smell, I would be hard put
to make a selection.  A turd is a turd is a turd (thank you Gertrude). 
I realize that is not the popular conception of Assange and I can only
say I rarely run with the herd.  Always the independent which irks the
hell out of the hard leftists on this website.  Too bad. 

Moreover, you need to make clear from your implication that I have any
affinity with the Tea Party/Republican ideology.  That is abundantly and
starkly an untruth, in plain English, a lie. To anyone who is conscious of
my sentiments over the four years I’ve been a truthdipper would know I
have not one ounce of respect for the Rightists of any stripe.  They in
their insane partisanship, have pushed me more to the left, though I am
decidedly and by choice a still a liberal through and through and remain
a Democrat!  More centrist, however, than any other position on the left
side of the political spectrum. The far leftists would naturally see me as
right since I would be to the right of them. But one needs to be aware of
where the line of political demarcation is.  Surely you are awake enough
to have noticed that?  It is tiresome to have to clarify it myself!  And do I
protest too much?  NO!

Assange is not the one to be silenced.  He is the egotistical face, in y
opinion, of Wikileaks.  I am not even saying Wikileaks needs to be
silenced.  I am saying, and that is the point from which you have
strayed, that there is no Wikileak self-control of what is and what is
appropriate to expose to the world. I’ve said of course corruption by
the banks and financial moguls needs exposed.  Even state official
shennigans. 

But it stops at a point where state sensitive data that could lead to the
harm of innocent people, violate their rights, and that those in charge of
Wikileaks do not make those distinctions.  They just flooded the airwaves
without any glimmer of the ramifications of what they published.  It all
just looks juicy.  Assange only provides the venue for others to leak
information.  He may be your idea of turdy godliness but I have no gods
either turdly extraterrestrial or turdly earthly or non-turdies.  No one is
above criticism. Including myself! and I have had plenty excoriation with
many scars from both leftists and rightists.  (Well, Carl Sagan may be the
exception).  I do believe he would be a better choice as a signifier for
OWS. His liberal views are renown as are his keen insight into the vile
pressure put upon society by the Corporatocrats.  His demonstrated
altruism puts him at the head of any list.  Bertrand Russell comes in
second.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, November 6, 2011 at 2:41 pm Link to this comment

2. Publication of leaks is not its own justification.  In a democracy
the fundamental right of freedom of expression and the public’s
right to know is sacrosanct as a value and protection of the law is
consecrated.  But these rights are limited where their enforcement
is a balance of them against other equally important rights that are
also hallowed.  I use the religious metaphor on purpose to give the
appropriate measure of the importance of our rights to an open and
transparent society.  I am not arguing against that concept in the
least.  There are laws against defamation that protects a person’s
reputation from wrongful attacks; privacy laws protects personal
information; making threats and expressions of hatred and
vilification are illegal.  “Suppression orders and the law of contempt
of court support the administration of justice and the right to a fair
trial.”  Censorship preserves a society’s standard of decency.  And
relevant to this discussion, in a democracy with the approval of the
citizens, governments have the right to keep certain matters secret in
providing for the public good.  These are only some of the reasons why
letting loose data willynilly with no discrimination is wrong.  Were your
rights violated by what I’ve noted, you would scream bloody murder. 

It is not that Wikileaks has actually violated any of these rights, though
it might prove that they indeed have. It is the potential to violate them. 
Just as you argue for the defense of the right of anarchy and going
against the authorities (just as teenagers rebel against their parents),
there is such a thing as the virtue of propriety that is given no thought,
just as do adolescents, with no thought of the ramifications on the safety
and well-being of others.

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By heterochromatic, November 6, 2011 at 1:39 pm Link to this comment

WiP—-from what is Assange to be defended?  vigorous criticism?

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, November 6, 2011 at 1:10 pm Link to this comment

This is the movie to which I referred:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_Job_(film)

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, November 6, 2011 at 1:09 pm Link to this comment

To me, a thing that resonates with Assange and OWS is the Bank of America connection.  Consider the power of not only various high level BOA internal memos, but all the little mortgage brokers out in the suburbs, who had been coached on how to coach their clients to inflate income statements. 

Put this movie together with memo’s leaked by various mortgage brokers, and viola!  Revolution.  A revolution that strikes the core of your Tea Party/ Republican ideology, a revolution against greed itself.  Against the most fundamental cornerstone (and non-Christian by the way) principle of the right, namely that greed is good. 

But this is just one leg of the stool.  And, I digress from whether “OWS might use Assange as a focal point for corporate right to privacy vs. individual right to privacy, and perhaps throw in something about intimidation and whistle-blowing.” 

I concede that Wikileaks may not have exposed anything specifically useful, but that is not the issue as I see it and am trying to state.  The issue I believe is: though Assange is a turd, he must be held as a champion and vigorously, vigorously defended simply to nullify the attempt of BOA and others to silence a troublemaker.  Troublemakers need empowered!  Troublemakers need to see that We the People will storm the gates to defend them.  That we will mount legal defense funds, public relations campaigns, and more.  Move beyond his debatable turdliness Assange.  It is entirely possible the stink comes from those who would silence him.  Assange is more like a nose, the organ which detects the stench of corruption that we may turn our gaze to the unseen BOA and Wall street microbes working within the bowels of the BOOM-bust cycles.

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By heterochromatic, November 6, 2011 at 11:28 am Link to this comment

Lee-

poor comparison.  we’re not disenfranchised and it’s
quite possible to elect most anyone to the House of
Reps…..all you need is a bunch of hard-working
people and support from voters….a unsuccessful
record in electing candidates that share your POV
isn’t disenfranchisement at all.

Disenfranchisement is not having any possibility of
voting for representation in the House ... which was
the case when we were colonials.

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By Shenonymous, November 6, 2011 at 11:07 am Link to this comment

Digress a bit did I?  I don’t think so.  Maybe our respective
perspectives are at work.  Okay though, to take up your topic. 
I have seen an AlterNet article where Wikileaks exposed five
instances of lengths “Washington [was] willing to go to protect
and promote US corporations around the world.”  Washington,
though, was not specified.  The practice of unspecificity is what
I think is the trouble with “leaks.”  If that was Assange’s intention,
to expose the corruption in the corporate financial world, why
are there not more focus on it and more “leaks” about it? I am not
convinced that was his leaking motivation.

Nor have I seen where OWS has picked up that channel of information
to use as materials for legitimate protest.  They are pretty much keeping
specificity out of the movement, which I think is a mistake, for at the
end of the day, if nothing is accomplished, it will be because nothing in
particular was asked for.  I am interested in changing the system.  Aren’t
you?

Wikileaks claims to have been the catalyst for a number of the
rebellions that have happened this year, but when checking them out,
the principles of the rebellions deny that and say the reasons for their
rebellions were long incubating.  That other rebellions gave the courage
for them to act.  Attributing credit is always a stickywicket.  And needs
to be done squinting the eyes, skepticism. 

I’ve found only that one article that credits Wikileaks for any progress
against the financial industry. 

I think it would be a mistake to use Assange as a figurehead for OWS.
The motives of each terminus is not confluential, meaning they are not
the same or amalgamable and hence while maybe not completely
antithetical in that both are interested in exposés, they originate from
different causes and effects and aims are different.  Using someone of
questionable character is also not auspicious to further an honest
movement that would like to attract as many people as possible that
could provide material buttress to their cause.  Appealing to the LCD
popular sentimentality, the hero of which I already spoke, might attract
bodies who are affected by that kind of sophistry, but if some substantial
change is desired, then finding heroes ought to be selected with care
and who has demonstrated integrity.

I think you hold a traditional view (whether you mean to or not), that
the people have not had a systemic change and do not have any more
power than they did prior to the rebellions.  Yes it is true ALEC and the
Kock brothers are doing all they can with money to impede the progress
of the people to affect their own lives.  I think they do have newly
engendered power and it is promising people power.  I disagree that the
OWS is only a titular representative of the 99%.  I believe they are the 99%
only in groups determined by location, not determined by inclination. 
This is a disagreement only time will bear you or me out for insight.

You are right.  There have been many historical personalities who were
not of the most virtuous, principled, honorable who indeed were turds of
the first order, and I would agree that Assange did provide the platform
for freedom of the press, but I would argue he did nothing more, though
I do not want to diminish the importance of it.  True tweets in and of
themselves do not make for permanency.  Only action does, as I so said. 
The ballot box is one way, and influence on legislators is another.  That
is the real power of a people. 

I think we are agreed the People’s Power must draw the lines of what it
means to be an “Equivalent Citizen” of a society.  We the people are the
only ballast that can say what is egalitarian and fair.

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By Leefeller, November 6, 2011 at 10:29 am Link to this comment

Disenfranchisement suggests the game is clearly rigged to sponsor inequalities, it appears we are facing the same thing our founding fathers of an other mother faced. Compare the few as the 1 percent or the king who demands entitlements, and who then sponsors corporate interests and money to the determent of the commoners, the 99 percent, but back then Enron was known as East India Tea Company!

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, November 6, 2011 at 9:48 am Link to this comment

She: good points, but you stray (with a lot of Tea Party discourse) from what I thought was the topic, and perhaps I assume incorrectly, but let’s say it’s whether or not OWS might use Assange as a focal point for corporate right to privacy vs.. individual right to privacy, and perhaps throw in something about intimidation and whistle-blowing.  Admittedly that’s not a focused topic of discussion, so play along? 

Apologies for cherry picking from your post, but reconsider this statement: “I argue that the people do have the power now to hold corporations accountable.”  I’m not so sure.  Perhaps in some general or theoretical sense, yes, but the ALEC folks are working pretty hard to limit corporate accountability by capping litigation.  Also, as a matter of incentive, the 99% have a very small incentive as individuals to attack any given problem.  And that is to say nothing about the imbalance of resources.  I’d argue that to amass adequate public opinion, therefore funding, to mount credible legal attacks, one tool, to ‘leak’ factual information, seems actually quite in the public’s interest. 

In any case, having the perception that we have all this communications ability and that it actually translates into real power are not necessarily linked.  One hears of cases (and it may be the case following the ‘Arab spring’) that the old bureaucratic infrastructures and personalities remain.  One can tweet, tweet, tweet, but unless the tweets are linked to coordinated long-term action, either at the ballot box or on the street, then all the tweeting is actually very dangerous as it serves only to provide a ‘release valve’ for people, a sense of power without real change or power attached.

And finally, it occurred to me regarding an earlier point about Assanges worthiness, credibility, motives, etc.  I have to wonder about all the personalities of history, how many were so pure, lawful, altruistic etc.  Let’s just say Assange is a turd, and so what.  We need a modern freedom of the press with real information.  If the ‘net is to be any good at all, we need intimidated insiders with a conscience.  Corporate control/intimidation may or may not grow exponentially, but if over the short, near and long term, we are to develop counterbalances to corruption and greed, We the People must start drawing lines in the sand and raising the sort of rebellion the Founding Fathers wrote about.

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By ardee, November 6, 2011 at 9:23 am Link to this comment

no, I don’t spray paint anything. I use words - they can be rather deadlier when used at the right time.

So, then, Raoul you admit, it seems, to being a provocateur rather than an actual participant in the violence you urged here on the forum.

Funny, while I do not condone violence on the part of anyone I admit that I have a lot more regard for the misguided participants in the vandalism for putting their (incorrect) beliefs on the line than I do for some phony who urges others to shut down a parade and admits to a refusal to back his words with actions.

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By Shenonymous, November 6, 2011 at 8:49 am Link to this comment

I appreciate your interest for reasonable discourse What Is Progress.
Making an in-a-perfect world case is necessary in order to have an
ideal to compare our dreadful state-at-the-moment. That is the
only purpose ideals exist. So, to address your excellent comments,
I ask why assume that Corporatocratic control will increase?  I
assume you mean exponentially over 2, 5, 10 years?  I counter-
argue that the people are now directly involved in watching our
slavers ever more closely than they ever have before in history!
People have discovered an ability to be active in their own government.
With the advent of the Internet, which augments popular electronic
communications, news is instantaneous and watchdog groups are
effectively active. I argue that the people do have the power now to
hold corporations accountable. I argue that the world almost overnight
has changed. We will flood the streets in protest when we see the world
of Corporations impose their greedy will on us. We will indict them and
prosecute them and make them pay with time in jail and remuneration.
It will only take a tweet to do it!

What is the right call? How can we know what is the right call? We
know when our lives are badly affected, we know when we do not
have enough jobs to go around, or enough skill to man the ones that
are available because this country has not invested in proper education,
not necessarily but including the technology skills. People need a well-
rounded education in order to learn how to make good decisions for
themselves and their society. Both! This country has been hijacked by the
Religious Right Conservative Republican Tea Party that has as its strategy
keeping the people ignorant. Why? 

Well for one thing more and more this country is becoming overtaken
by non-white races and they are the ones needing education that the
Tea Party wants to keep ignorant in order to have sway over elections.
See how voter registration is now under attack. Precisely to keep current
minority groups from a unified vote against the austerity measures the
Tea Party precisely wants that will protect their investments, protect
their bank accounts, protect their upper elitist life style. The poor and
underprivileged don’t vote Republican.

Quantitatively is a good question since it is in the numbers that we all
seem to base our lives these days, rather than qualitatively. The only
way is as you intuit. To keep Corporatocrats accountable, individually
prosecutions for provable corruption as corporate persons, since
corporations are now considered persons and ought to be litigatable
just as a person can be. We must use our legal system to its nth degree,
make use of it for ourselves, ourselves meaning the 99%. 

Moving one’s money from commercial banks to credit unions or
community banks like the Bank of North Dakota is lethal to the
corporatocrats! By all reports that move is stupefying the commercial
finance sector. It is stunning in fact.  This effort needs to infect the
entire country. The way to retrieve our country from the moneyed class
is to be active not just by marching and giving loud voice to our disgust. 
We must act in ways that cuts the wealthy class where it hurts, in their
pocketbook.

Corporations have had free reign, as monarchs reign over their
kingdoms. Corporations have taken the place of royalty and I personally
am an anti-royalist. Down with the kings, down with the queens and
robber barons.

It is clear as glass that the Tea Party intention is to derail this country
and put the citizenry as an entire population into servitude, into a civil
relationship where the Tea Party (formerly known as the Republican
Party) has absolute power over all of us and controls our lives, our
liberty, and especially our fortune. We cannot allow this.  It is they
against whom we must successfully rebel if we are to have a quality life.

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By terry p, November 6, 2011 at 7:07 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shenonymos about our small disagreement:

I figured we have exhausted most readers of these comments. Only a few are left and they seem to have a bone to pick with each other. None of my business doncha see. But there are loose ends between you and me.

This thing about emotion of which you speak: I feel you are referring to me when I came to the defense of Julian Assange a bit ago after hearing of his extradition.

Did you know he had not been charged with a crime or the breaking of any law? And yet his extradition was approved anyway.

Did you know the request was for questioning only? That is a first. He’s a reporter for goodness sakes. Why couldn’t he be questioned in a public forum?

Rape is what we are talking about in this case not Wikileaks. If rape is what your obvious ‘emotional’ feelings are towards Julian Assange then you are accountable for the same ‘emotional conclusions’ that you accuse me of. None of the women involved with him cried rape. They only wanted to be tested for the dreaded aids virus because the ‘consensual’ sex was unprotected. It was a particular prosecuting attorney in Sweden, where rape laws are much different than here who had an agenda, political I suspect, that wanted charges of rape filed. The state, originally, dropped all charges. But, because of the persuasive arm twisting [by the USA], Sweden continued the extradition request. I understand that Carl Rove used his influence in Sweden on this issue.

The fear, expressed by JA’s attorneys was that his extradition to Sweden is simply going to be to a holding cell. He’ll be held there only to await further extradited to the USA. I’m sure you know all about our treatment of foreign prisoners suspected of terrorism who are unfortunate enough to find themselves in that situation here. Do you really think he will be treated fairly? There are a lot of details of which, I assume, you are aware of about this since you are adamant that JA, who can’t defend himself here, is a guilty criminal not worth our consideration or even attention.

I am concerned about JA. You should be. There are issues here about news reporting that should concern you if a journalist is held responsible for what his sources actions are. And you know what will happen to whistle blowers if that source is held responsible for blowing the whistle on criminal behavior - Example: Bradley Manning -.

If he is extradited to the US it simply means the criminal section of the .01%er won and our rights have been suppressed even further.

Do you want to know the truths in future on important stories that relate to you and your freedom or are you satisfied with what the State wants you to hear, knowing the state is owned by the .01%ers?

I think you know what will happen to reporting if JA is made an example of. If not you should. A precedence will be set. Top stories will no longer relate to anything that will remotely accuse our self appointed dictating superiors of anything because of Journalistic dread. We will become a nation of “Stepford Wives” even more than we already are.

You know, I’m sure, the history of the Pentagon Papers which was considered espionage before it became public. Our free speech and journalism is obviously at stake here. The Fourth Estate is at stake.

Respectfully
tp:?]

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, November 6, 2011 at 5:58 am Link to this comment

She: You are right about logic/emotion.  I agree this is a gut call on my part, but how does one show quantitatively and with certainty what the right call is?  History shows examples, but each point in history is also relative to other situations which exist at that time only. 

Corporations have free reign over our personal information, and I say it’s time the situation is reversed.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, November 6, 2011 at 5:47 am Link to this comment

OK She…...
That third paragraph from the end makes my brain explode.  Certainly you make a civil, general, in-a-perfect world case.  Arrrrggggghhhh!

Assange (not exclusively) would be a perfect priority for OWS.  Not the least of which would be that in 2, 5, 10, years, when we have even more corporate control over the press, individual people will be afraid to check abuse. 

When certain corporations elect to promote the nastiest people in their ranks, those below must hols some power of exposure, otherwise… 

What do we want, people serving corporations or corporations serving people?  There is a lot in that question.  What is to evolve as the new ‘freedom of the press, the new 4th branch of government to replace the essential function abandoned by the corporate boot-licking infotainment industry which passes for free press? 

I’ve said enough…extrapolate please.

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By Raoul, November 5, 2011 at 4:03 pm Link to this comment

perhaps my own medications are to blame from Ardee’s latest dreary postings.

Well kiddo, that explains it all regarding your rather blitzy behavior. I will take the high road and leave you alone from here on. Hope you’re feeling better in the future. Oh, almost forgot - no, I don’t spray paint anything. I use words - they can be rather deadlier when used at the right time.

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By ardee, November 5, 2011 at 3:46 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller, November 5 at 8:54 am Link to this comment

Ardee, I have been here on TD for a while now, just after I believe, when TD first started, several other posters also seem to still be here. I found many attacks aimed at She in the past to be so obviously sexist, lets face it

I have only been here since May of 2007. But in all that time I never once remember any criticism of She that was sexist in nature.  If I had I would have been the first to condemn them.

On the other hand I do remember numerous times that she herself has denied direct quotes of her own failings.

Loyalty is a fine thing some might say. Misplaced loyalty, or blind loyalty is quite another thing entirely.

I have already noted my own mea culpa and will continue to abide by it as best as a mere mortal may be able. I will also continue to turboscroll past the two obvious Jr. Josef Goebbels’ currently infesting this forum. If only in order to keep from a scathing denunciation of those who actually reveal themselves by their lies and distortions.

I do admire your ability to read that stuff sans nausea or sarcastic responses. I offer that those , like myself, who simply cannot abide the liars would benefit from adopting my own method. Ignoring them consistently is the very best way to ensure that they will tire of their crap and disappear back under the rock from whence they came.

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By terry p, November 5, 2011 at 12:01 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I feel as though I’ve walked into an audition for characters talking politics while in a poker game hosted by the odd couple.

Yawl each make great comments and not without wit. Now, I gota git before I take a hit!

It’s been real .... and I liked the article too.

tp

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By Leefeller, November 5, 2011 at 8:54 am Link to this comment

Ardee, I have been here on TD for a while now, just after I believe, when TD first started, several other posters also seem to still be here. I found many attacks aimed at She in the past to be so obviously sexist, lets face it She can defend herself and has proven to be extremely dexterous in defensive offense.  My only point is poster bickering becomes boring for those non participants and lets face it, we have real problems facing us who are of the 99 percent.

Turbo Scroll?  This may be a tool, except even those who bicker as others who do not, offer occasional salient points, which I prefer not to miss. My experience here is a learning experience so I guess my preference is to use the good old speed reading technique instead? (I hated speed reading class, it provokes my anxiety complex).

I am obviously tainted by my history here and my chronological virtual associations and experiences. One thing is, I do not hold a grudge, probably because I do not have the memory of an elephant, my attention span seems closer to that of a fly!

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By Shenonymous, November 5, 2011 at 8:43 am Link to this comment

What Is Progress, Nov. 5, 6:08am “The mythos of a hero against
a cyclopian enemy is always a eduction, and if it isn’t real, people
make it up as if it were.”  The correct quote is The mythos of a
hero against a cyclopian enemy is always a seduction, and if it
isn’t real, people make it up as if it were.” 

But on reading your comments, I don’t think that we are that far
apart in views.  I agree that it is important to consider what it
means to not tolerate “making an example of types of corporate/state
behaviors.” And I agree this would be something new of the general
public or non-elitist citizens to repossess what is and has always been
as its right to a responsible state, that is, government, that protects
them, the implication is the pirating of those rights by those who believe
they deserve favored treatment who perceive themselves as superior in
intellect, social status and financial resources.

I further accede that time has moved along where it is no longer
important to the world what happens to Assange legally.  He will
have to face his accusers, and the quality of that will be dependent on
both the judiciary as well as his behaviors.  Ordinary people have no say
in the matter. 

Which points to what you might consider intimidation by the state.  I
argue that we either have a system of laws or we don’t and we would
only reduce ourselves to lawlessness in the face of extreme conditions. 
I believe OWS is one of those circumstances.  But, in my opinion for
reasons already stated, Assange is not one of them.  I am well aware
my belief is not appreciated by many on this forum.  Our respective
views no doubt come from different experiences. 

It is the history of societies that a state/corporation/oligarchy/
plutocracy and such’s tactic has frequently been to make an example of
troublemakers. That really is the basis of the law, to punish lawbreakers. 
The punishment is seen as a deterrent and sets up an example of what
happens when the law of the land is not followed.  Laws are not made for
the lawful.  It is to protect them from the infractions of the offenders.  It
is also in my opinion though, that prosecutions follow the principles of
social justice. It is not always up to one or even a few individuals who
are sympathetic with the one who is accused of committing a breach
of the law.  I believe the best society is a civil society that has evolved a
morality and ethics that is enforced by just laws. If it is felt the laws are
unjust, they must be changed through reasonable means. 

I realize my view is not the popular view.  But I believe the popular
view is not based on reason but falls into feelings and emotion.  I do
not believe a sane society can flourish that way.  Not that it must be
emotionless but the emotions must be of the appropriate degree. 
What that degree is will have been decided by the members of a society.
There is a line that is crossed when emotion runs to an extreme out of a
felt sentimentality.

I think there are more important matters at hand and that is to stop the
dangerous rhetoric being fed to the public by Republicans.  Also to
educate the public about the effects the political elites and their money
has on our society.  Chris Hayes made an acutely good point about the
wealth of 40% of the Congressional members worth more than a million
dollars, and the others having close to that, and that is specifically the
reason why when Congress legislates they always legislate to protect
that wealth and we the people are lost in the ashes from their political
bombast.  This is what needs to be brought into crystal clear focus and
what the OWS also needs to loudly howl about.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, November 5, 2011 at 6:08 am Link to this comment

She: “I think you are missing the point. The mythos of a hero against a cyclopian enemy is always a eduction, and if it isn’t real, people make it up as if it were.”

No, I got that point.  Assange is underserving, I give you that because it no longer matters.  What matters now is that we not tolerate ‘making an example of’ types of corporate /state behaviors.  This would be something fairly new.  Assange is just the latest example of intimidation through fear, and in this particular case, intimidation against leaking damning information should not be supresed, it protects extctly the wrong people. 

To reiterate, it’s the state/corporate/oligarchical tactic of ‘making an example’ of ‘troublemakers’ which must be recognized, illuminated and defeated.  That is a never-ending fire worth suppressing.  How many references to a new dark ages have we heard?  Fear of all these intimidation tactics, these renditions, imprisonment, etc, need a face.  Like it or not, Assange is it.  Unfortunately,, we must pinch our noses and fight for Assange, his personal worthiness aside.  We are fighting to be free of intimidation.

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By Shenonymous, November 4, 2011 at 7:25 pm Link to this comment

What Is Progress, November 4 5:04 pm – Okay.  I ride six high
horses too.

Raoul, November 4 at 6:11 am – You saved me the trouble!  Merci
beaucoup!

What Is Progress, November 4 at 6:18 am – I think you are missing
the point. The mythos of a hero against a cyclopian enemy is always
a seduction, and if it isn’t real, people make it up as if it were. 

The piecemeal release of Wikileaks revelations were calculated for
maximum public titillation.  From the first I thought it irresponsible
and reckless for dumping unbelievably massive amounts of electronic
information without any vetting or circumspection that I thought showed
unprincipled disregard for states’ protective safeguards. 

There is no argument from me that some of the data that flooded our
lives did expose particular corruptions that should have been or even
that some of it was embarrassing to world leaders, after all they are
only people who happen to have position, but because those who were
responsible for trotting out the documents off and on in diarrhea fashion
were know-nothing dimwits about what was released had no discerning
ability to pre-assess for diplomatic sensitivity that had national security
at stake.  No one has the right to put nations at that kind of risk, putting
millions of people at risk.  I do not think their release served the idea of
peace in the least. 

Yes, terry p, I am unquestionably for peace.  And I also say Long Live
OWS!  Besides being a movement it is now an indelible idea that the
people have power over their own lives.  There have been positive effects
from this demonstration of the will of the people against the financial
industrial complex.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, November 4, 2011 at 5:04 pm Link to this comment

She: It was indeed a compliment, as I suspect you guess.  But don’t let it go to your head. 

Lee: Perhaps you’re thinking, “Opinions are like assholes…..everybody has one and they all stink”.

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By Shenonymous, November 4, 2011 at 2:33 pm Link to this comment

What Is Progress, November 4 at 1:04 pm - “Hell Lefeller, many
of us I think secretly want to see who’s intellectual dick is biggest. 
Shenonymous wins hands down.”
 

Why thank you WIP, whether intended or not,  that is taken as a
compliment.  Just a reminder, envy is one of the seven deadly
sins.  The envious will have to try harder (pun intended).  The
problem is try as they may, the mental material just isn’t there,
and by your measure, neither is the physical.

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By Leefeller, November 4, 2011 at 2:30 pm Link to this comment

I find the posted bickering detracting from the issues at hand. Now I suspect I know how my mother felt when yelling at us kids in the back seat of the car; after a bit of rowdy leefeller teasing my sister who was an expert in annoying; my mother would yell, ....‘knock it off, or I am going to stop the car and bring out the turkey baster”!  Usually worked for us!

Yeah, I must admit I am plagiarizing it, (the avatar)  though it suites my sentiments very well, I plan on changing it in a bit.

I have little use for pissing matches, I guess they are more amusing for the participants than the observers? I mean, I have done my share of bickering and even belittling at OM and GRYM, occasionally with others, actually I find people the two never ever had the courtesy to reply or comment on the topic at hand, to me or anyone else for that matter,  now that I think on it they both seem to promote an agenda of division while planting their head where the sun didn’t shine…. Now I am being juvenile.

Points of view are like opinions, and far as I can see as my Drill Instituter always said .... ‘everybody has one!’ (actually my DI worded it differently, but I cannot remember the extract words?)

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, November 4, 2011 at 1:04 pm Link to this comment

Hell Lefeller, many of us I think secretly want to see who’s intellectual dick is biggest.  Shenonymous wins hands down. 

Look, if some of us have the personality of a crochity crumudgeon, so what?  How about a little understanding in the other direction?  I agree, baseless name-calling sucks, but people should get a thicker skin and ignore it instead of going on and on.  These egos are why the 99% are so damn easily divided and conquered. 

p.s. like the new avatar?

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By Raoul, November 4, 2011 at 12:56 pm Link to this comment

From my berloved (NOT) Ardee: “Raoul, November 4 at 6:11 am
Guess which finger I am holding up? Is that what passes for wit or wisdom in your middle school environment?”

Ever hear of the word ‘oxymoron’? Your latest love dart exhibits its SO much better than I ever could hope to show. What’s that? You don’t understand? Okay, here goes - you infer you’re showing me the ‘bird’ and then ask if it conforms to my ‘middle school’ ie, childish, wit? Do you see the irony? I assume not since you’re too busy reading your own press I suppose. ROFL.

And, going back to my original view about disrupting the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day parade - the more the Oakland storm troopers attack the protestors, the more vindicated my view becomes….

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By Leefeller, November 4, 2011 at 10:59 am Link to this comment

Disagreeing with out insult seems to be very hard for some, though I have insulted some people in my time, usually for fun, like with OM or GRYM, but as far as I can tell they deserved it. Possibly Prejudiced on my part.

Ardee, I have observed your diatribes with Anarcissie and now again She, I cannot help but be annoyed in the way you insult without any appearing merit or reason except a showing of fangs and ego? To me this appears almost bullying or possibly in the two posters mentioned above a sexist bullying at that.

Respect is earned in most cases though in the service we respected the rank but did not have to respect the person. I understand disagreements, I cannot understand emotional insults towards so many posters?

There is little room for communality or in some cases none at all if divisive insults are used instead of pulling in ones horns and disagreeing without insults and working with what we do agree on.

There seems to be a tremendous amount of this happening here on TD, I occasionally post on other Blogs and find some of the same thing, except; I expect maybe without merit; to find a higher level of discourse here on TD. After all we do have a smaller group of regular posters on TD and I feel we need to work together not fight with each other.

ON the other hand maybe we are doomed to this constant infighting and one ups manship after all this may be human nature?

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By ardee, November 4, 2011 at 9:44 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous, November 4 at 5:43 am

Are you really that much of an imbecile. The cited quote is from one you claim familiarity and respect for in the post to which I responded, Albert Camus.

We all have heroes but I have not built an altar to any of them. Mine tend to be in the genre of Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, Albert Camus, and their brethren, none of whom felt they had to ream out the world’s asses with tons of useless information, the only ones who are interested in the upwards of 250,000 documents are enemies and terrorists.

I will not discuss the incomprehensible self involved stupidity of your comment that only terrorists are interested in the exposure of the glaring arrogance and incompetence exposed by those releases. As almost every major news source was damn interested, though for various reasons, your words are so self involved as to be ridiculous.

My question remains valid, can you answer it?

I repeat it here:
I wonder if you might clarify with specifics why you believe Assange to be an opportunist. Further, if you would, what is you position on Wikileaks in general and the impact they may or may not have had by releasing those documents?

What Is Progress, November 4 at 6:18 am

Thank you for the sanity and clarity.

Raoul, November 4 at 6:11 am

Guess which finger I am holding up? Is that what passes for wit or wisdom in your middle school environment?

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By terry p, November 4, 2011 at 8:28 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

By Shenonymous, November 3 at 3:04 pm

I’m happy to be your my ally on most issues.

I have just a couple of words for JA. (1)peace & (2)activist. He is acting up for peace in the face of our out of control military complex. That does take a bit of courage.

I think you are also for peace.

& Long live OWS:?)

tp

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By terry p, November 4, 2011 at 8:17 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

By What Is Progress, November 4 at 6:18

Exactly! Thanks Progress.

tp

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By terry p, November 4, 2011 at 7:44 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

By What Is Progress, November 3 at 9:17

“In the end, why are any books any better than the bible unless the ‘scholars’ who are doing the synthesis are trustworthy?

So I ask, what is new about OWS?  Why should I think they won’t fall into the same bureaucracies and classes we have?  What is new in their core principles, and how will they stick to it?”
——————————————————————

There are no guarantees.

But, democracy is the only hope we have. To make democracy difficult it ebbs and flows. There is a constant struggle by the aristocratic heirs to maintain what they consider their God given domain. That is why Scholars can never be trusted. Most of them are lured by a different kind of dignity than what you spoke of earlier when you cried “keep of the grass”. The .01%ers, generally speaking, are self serving bigots for the most part, to put it bluntly(my opinion) who feel they are the only capable managers of life on Earth and do so by purchasing Scholars.

I assume you are a scholar from the obvious answers in your questions. There is much honor in your pursuit of the truth and contributions to the cause if you use your talents for the causes of democracy.

I think many answers about trust worthiness of books lies in this amazing internet system that connects us all.  Without it this movement, which is democracy in action, would not have been possible. The internet must always be free. Not only are we instantaneously connected to the far reaches of the remotest areas on this planet but each entry is history in the making. That is what Julian Assange was offering through Wikileaks. It was democracy demanding truth and accountability and that is your answer to trustworthiness.True data can be erased but there are thousands of mirror sites backing up everything now.

Whether it will be better in the future - I don’t know. But, shinning a light on war profiteers, men with personal power agendas or embarrassing blunders by governments waging unjust wars, business raping small defenseless countries for their limited resources through The bank of International settlement, world bank & IMF with bankster schemes starving third world citizens and here through austerity measures while bailouts continue for the super rich banks etc…

This movement will probably stop moving in the near future. The internet can be shut down by dictates of the powers that be. Those powers are obviously out of control with a mountain of money. But, the memory of what woke the sleeping democratic giant will last for a while at least. The giant is awake, walking through the streets of cities and towns everywhere and learning:?)

I’m sure the Banksters are scheming a take over as we speak.

It’s a never ending struggle.

LONG LIVE DEMOCRACY & FREEDOM

tp

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, November 4, 2011 at 6:18 am Link to this comment

I would liek to clarify this quote, “Assange and his kind are dangerous in an information world.”.  Dangerous to who.  Dangerous to those who are hiding unscrupulous behavior. 

I say let them have a taste of their own medicine…..what have you got to hide?  If you haven’t done anything wrong, what are you afraid of.  Turn the most disgusting justification for the illegal surveillance of the Patriot act back on those who would watch We the People in violation of any right to privacy. 

Yes, Assange is dangerous…...to all the right corporate people, the nasty ones.  I am certainly not arguing for industrial espionage, rather, when a policy, memo, or operational method has any sort of ‘yuck factor’, let the public decide for themselves in the open sunshine.  Here’s where the free market works, when people are informed about what they are supporting. 

Again, this is related to corporate personhood and giving our rights as individual people over to corporate entities.  Assange must not be let to twist in the wind!

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By Raoul, November 4, 2011 at 6:11 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous said, “As usual ardee you get it wrong.  Take those quotes off your attribution to me.  Else you would be thought of as an asshole.”

Replace the word ‘thought’ with the word ‘known’ and we’ll be in full agreement with your reply. LOL

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By Shenonymous, November 4, 2011 at 5:43 am Link to this comment

As usual ardee you get it wrong.  Take those quotes off
your attribution to me.  Else you would be thought of as
an asshole.

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By ardee, November 4, 2011 at 5:32 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous, November 3 at 3:04 pm

” I wish I could love my country ,and justice too.”

I wonder if you might clarify with specifics why you believe Assange to be an opportunist. Further, if you would, what is you position on Wikileaks in general and the impact they may or may not have had by releasing those documents?

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, November 3, 2011 at 3:21 pm Link to this comment

Assange might or might not have more courage than anyone else, that’s not the point at this point.  I think the point is ‘they’ are making an example out of him, to intimidate the rest of the potential whistle blowers. 

Assange and his kind are dangerous in an information world.  This is an inquisition.  He might not be worth fighting for personally, but the idea of the small guy being able to impede scurrilous practices of large organizations must, must prevail.

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By Shenonymous, November 3, 2011 at 3:04 pm Link to this comment

I’ve never thought of God or a god as having balls, thinking a god
or God wouldn’t need one let alone two!  Surely a God doesn’t! 
Assigning a gender to a god also just does not compute.

I’ve read Assange’s biography, autobiographical articles, and seen
interviews frankly Scarletts I just dont’ give a damn ‘bout the guy. 
We all have heroes but I have not built an altar to any of them. Mine
tend to be in the genre of Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, Albert Camus,
and their brethren, none of whom felt they had to ream out the world’s
asses with tons of useless information, the only ones who are interested
in the upwards of 250,000 documents are enemies and terrorists. Most
of the world doesn’t really give a damn.  State departments all over the
world have been breached by self-aggrandized “whistle blowers” who
make a mockery of the breed.

No, I don’t think he has more courage than anyone else. I see him as an
opportunist not a Knight in electronic armor who fell onto a passel of
classified documents by accident. But then unlike a lot of people, I’ve
don’t feel betrayed by my country even though I can criticize it many
times over for its politics, its disregard for the general public, ergo OWS,
or even by my wimpy party a part of which is beginning to come alive as
Rachel Maddow reveled in last evening. 

Life happens.  And I believe whatever motivated the OWSers is at the
heart of most of the changes we will see in every quarter of our lives
these days. It is the tenacity of the modern day protesters that moved the
nations of the Arab spring, and it is the same kind of energy expressed
here.  That anarchic energy they are putting out is too intense not to be
affected by it and the movement is having its affects.

The golden rule is the code of reciprocity, do unto others as you would
have others do unto you and is the very heart of human rights.  I don’t
think Assange gave that a nanosecond thought.  It is a very romantic
longing to have heroes who will swoop down and save the world.  Ala
all the religions of the world and why I intimated Assange as being
deified.  He hasn’t saved anything really, and it is debatable that
he can save his own skin.

M’thinks, whomever…if you want educated it will depend on your own
resolve and integrity.  Ignorance is a terrible waste of a clever mind.  I do
realize the remarks of sarcasm, so here’s it backacha.

Yes, I too think we agree on most of what I’ve seen in our posts, terry p. 
The Republicans support and join those 1%ers who scavenge on the rest
of the world, and no it is not confined to the US, it is the mindset of the
wealthy class everywhere and actually for all time.

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, November 3, 2011 at 9:17 am Link to this comment

Terry P, in addition to history being written by the victors or mighty, so other works are sponsored by the ruling class.  Not to say everything is too, too tainted, but I’d offer not much has been written with complete disregard for the patrons. 

At least the hard sciences, with their requirements of repeatability, offer some reliability over time.  IMO, this is why so many of the softer sciences and ‘scholastic cherrypickers’ attempt to pattern themselves after hard science.

Look at it all, political science, economics, everything that makes up popular culture, all of it, and where has it got us?  A long, long string of boom-bust-war-boom-bust-war cycles. 

Certainly there is incredible wisdom buried in the books, but even if it can be usefully synthesized into a sustainable and decent future for all, I’ll bet partisan habits will suppress it with whatever gobbldy-gook can be applied.  In the end, why are any books any better than the bible unless the ‘scholars’ who are doing the synthesis are trustworthy?

So I ask, what is new about OWS?  Why should I think they won’t fall into the same bureaucracies and classes we have?  What is new in their core principles, and how will they stick to it?

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By terry p, November 3, 2011 at 6:42 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I’d be the first to admit I need more ejdukacion”:?]

History is written by the victors of war (that’s the ape who caries the biggest stick - as I’m sure you’re aware Shenonymous) It’s also written by the most enduring written word financed by the person or persons(corporation &/or old money) with the largest piles of gold. It’s called the golden rule - and that is, “Who so ever has the most gold makes the rules.”


Common sense is required when reading history books, The NY Times, bibles or Wikileaks. People are occupying spaces all over the world because they are pissed off. They are not pissed so much about what they read but what their common sense tells them is propaganda or what is not written at all except for perhaps in Wikileaks. And most of them are hungry while the .01%ers get handouts. Their common sense tells them about austerity and about bailouts for aristocracy. My imagination tells me more. Maybe I have a wikileak in my head! edjukate me - please.

JA was a hacker in his youth. A hacker is a software programmer and also mischievous prankster - NOT necessarily a malicious one. He got caught with his cyber hands prowling around in top secret Los Alamos libraries in New Mexico when he was a youngster living in Australia in the early 90’s. He got punished with a relative slap on the wrist and several years of probation. Because the punishment was so light one of his closest cyber friends or allies at that time, a radical now still in prison for similar hacks, thinks Julian Assange is a CIA operative. It has been written that the Rothschild money helped him then and in the beginning of his social ISP venture in Australia and his ventures in Wikileaks. I only read about some of this stuff on the internet, which is thought to be unsubstantiated. But I’ve wondered. Since the release of “Collateral Murder” Julian Assange has had trouble mount exponentially. He has taken on the most powerful people in the world and governments in the world. I never thought of him as a God. But I sure think he has balls like one. He has more courage than any blow hard backed by our military complex or politically connected reporter afraid to mention anything that might jeopardize their career. I’ve heard their voices. They have profited from his operation - some calling, in public, for his assassination.  He may not be a God but he is my hero. I do know the difference.

It is confusing for me. With 7 billion people on this planet about what is best. Maybe we should abide by the proven golden rule instead of abiding by our precious democracy. However, I don’t believe that .01% who have the gold care much about the 7 billion. Creative marketing seems to be their answer.

I’m happy we agree on the most important thing, Shenonymos. That is that people recognize that there is a major disconnect between them and that .01 percent elite. And they are doing something about it - finally.

tp

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By ardee, November 3, 2011 at 4:55 am Link to this comment

Perhaps Shenonymous would deign to edumacate me?

Some heads are just too mushy to ejumakate.  It is not worth my time to
try.

So then you are free to post anything and then scurry back out of the light when asked for clarification. Nice tactic…not.

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By Shenonymous, November 3, 2011 at 12:13 am Link to this comment

heterochromatic, November 3 at 12:02 am - agreed.  But perception
is everything.  The police have a reputation not because of nothing.
While their behavior has generally been fairly controlled against the
protesters, it is also a function of the local governments’ directing
the action.  If it were up to the police, I feel sure there would have
been much more damage done to the people.

I don’t really want to start listing all the events of brutality by police
agains citizens in America, as a terrible story is reported almost every
day.  They are called pigs for a reason.  When police are reported as
being civil, it becomes a national celebration.

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By Shenonymous, November 3, 2011 at 12:06 am Link to this comment

Re:  Egyptian military

Egyptian dictator Hosni Mubarak succumbed to the pressure
from protesters and resigned his, not the military’s, 30-year reign,
handing power over to the Egyptian military February 11, a move
met with joy in the streets of Egypt.

While the Egyptian police were not as restrained as the Egyptian
military, nevertheless at least 300 peaceful protesters were murdered
in government-inspired pogroms, with a few exceptions, the protesters
were universally peaceful and non-violent.

Many of the protesters appear not to be satisfied with the resignation
of the dictator and the installation of a military government, and plan
to continue protesting. “We’re staying put. We’re not leaving until the
regime is gone,” one young protester at Tahrir Square, Issa Adel Issa,
told the Washington Post February 11. “We don’t want a military
government. We want a democracy with civilians in charge.”

It had not been a military junta, Hosni Mubarak ceded power to the
Egyptian military.  After 30 years of autocratic rule by Mubarak, the
country began a new day under a military council that promises to lead
Egypt through a democratic transformation.  The Supreme Council of the
Armed Forces had said the ruling body would not be a replacement for a
legitimate government. The military council announced its intention was
to see a democratic, elected government established and that it would
maintain the current cabinet for the time being.

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By heterochromatic, November 3, 2011 at 12:02 am Link to this comment

Sher- i appreciate the thoughtful response…...

Felix was punched around after he threw an elbow at the cop who spoke to him
and was ignored before tap Felix on the shoulder to get his attention.
no points for either side on that one.

the “scooter thing” was garbage and a provocation. . the guy stuck his foot out
and screamed like a banshee for the cameras. 

he wasn’t really hurt…...his leg required ZERO treatment….no break, no strains
...his entire treatment involved scrapes from rolling on the street…...and the
middle of the street was where he was when he stuck his leg out at the cop.

I’ll go looking for news of the baton-swinger.. I believe it’s possible, and am
somewhat surprised at how well the OWS and cops have been getting along.

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By Shenonymous, November 2, 2011 at 11:47 pm Link to this comment

While there are instances of restraint of brutal treatment, as
in Chicago where protesters praised the police, there have been
incidents involving police injuring protesters.  And there also
has been several police injured at the various protests in US cities
such happened in Albany, NY.  Considering the number of people
protesting around the country, admittedly the police could have
been worse than they have been.  There has been incidents where
protesters have been injured.
1.Oakland, CA— An Iraq War veteran’s injury during a California
protest has come to be a symbol of the Occupy Wall Street movement. 
Protesters in Portland hope it draws attention to the city’s problem with
police violence.
2. October 20, 2011 As the number of Occupy Wall Street arrests nears
1,000, instances of police brutality continue to pile up.  Felix Rivera-Pitre
was punched in the face in New York during a march through the city’s
financial district;
3. Ryan Hadar was dragged out of the street by his thumbs at Occupy
San Francisco; and at Occupy Boston, members of Veterans for Peace
were shoved to the ground and dragged away for chanting and
peacefully occupying a local park. 
4.  While not reporting an injury in this item, as occupation spreads, so
does the police state.  The response to occupations throughout the
country, from San Francisco to Denver, involve midnight raids by heavily
armed paramilitary units of riot police deployed to enforce park curfews. 
5. The most brutal took place Sunday, Oct. 16. Minutes before midnight
and with the approval of SF Mayor Ed Lee (who is currently running for
reelection and claims to be supportive of the movement’s overall
message), 70 police officers decked out in full riot gear marched into
the encampment to enforce a 10pm curfew. They dismantled tents,
tarps, the medical station and the kitchen, along with some personal
belongings, all of which were loaded onto Department of Public Works
trucks.  200 protesters resisted peacefully, locking arms to prevent the
police invasion, which was met with a frighteningly violent response.
According to the San Francisco Bay Guardian, one protester received a
lengthy beat-down for duct-taping his body to a pole inside the camp.
The police allegedly “ripped him off the pole, threw him to the ground
and struck him in the head and ribs. When he left by ambulance a few
hours later, he appeared to be convulsing or seizing,” reported the Bay
Guardian.  Protesters using their bodies to block the DPW trucks from
leaving were dragged out of the street, some by their fingers and
thumbs.
6. Occupy Boston in Dewey Park faced police suppression in a late-night
raid that led to 129 arrests and multiple injuries involving several
members of Veterans for Peace.
7. In New York, a video of a lieutenant, captain or inspector-rank police
office is shown hitting protesters with a baton has just emerged from the
scene now near Occupy Wall Street’s headquarters at Zuccotti Park in the
Financial District, where police are barricading the protesters with metal
fences in order to control the large and agitated crowd.
8.  Photo exists showing a Police scooter running over the foot of a
protester who had fallen. 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44900423/ns/us_news-life
9.  The perception is, according to Press TV, a rally was held on Saturday,
Oct. 29 at City Hall Park in New York City, to voice opposition to the
nationwide mass arrests and brutal treatment of protesters by police.

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By heterochromatic, November 2, 2011 at 7:30 pm Link to this comment

——I was
not talking about the Egyptian military who have deceived the
people, and have nearly created a military junta.——


they haven’t CREATED one, Sher. THERE WAS ONE.

has been one in Egypt for six decades or so.

the Egyptian military didn’t refuse to fire on the crowds because they loved them.
they were instructed not to fire by their superior officers who had decided that
Mubarak was a lost cause and sacrificed the front man to retain the power
structure.

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By heterochromatic, November 2, 2011 at 7:06 pm Link to this comment

Sher—I’m in NYC the cops here have treated the
protesters extraordinarily well. Far better than they
would have or could have expected.

You give me a number for the NYC OWS protesters who’ve
been hurt by cops and spent 24 hrs in a hospital…


(—one exception to the gentleness of the NYPD is
Anthony Bologna….and very quietly, the NYPD f’ed him
up for it.)

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By Shenonymous, November 2, 2011 at 5:44 pm Link to this comment

hetero - you obviously are missing some intuition genes.  I was
not talking about the Egyptian military who have deceived the
people, and have nearly created a military junta. The people feel
betrayed.  I am talking about the heroic protesters!  And I’ve
frequently said the American protesters are “peaceful” but the
police in all the cities except Portland have been very aggressive
against the protesters.  Why the mayor of Oakland made a public
apology for the belligerence of the Oakland police.  You might
want to count the ones who have been injured.  Perhaps you don’t
want to look at the gory pictures.  Okay, it is your choice.  I am not
enamored of the American police and their tendency to do violence
against citizens.

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By heterochromatic, November 2, 2011 at 5:22 pm Link to this comment

Sher====Yes they are heroes of the first order. It
looks like Egypt is
providing the model for people of the world, not just
for the
Arab nations.  Now if only American pOleese would
have the
same epiphany.  I’ve never seen nor heard about that
ever
having happened here.  I can’t forget Kent State. 
Though
that was the National Guard it was still Americans
firing on
Americans.  Just like is happening at the
Occupies.====


that is an entire paragraph of wildly weird
disjointedness and silly.

whatever were you thinking?

you wanna compare the Egyptian army to police forces
in the US ????????

and attempt to say that the Egyptian army come off as
heroes????

clueless, Sher.

count up the number of protesters that the Egyptian
army SINCE Mubabak was ousted, Sher.

google——Egypt & Copts.


then count up the number of OWS protesters killed by
police in the US.

 

then count up the number of OWS protesters who’ve
spent a single night in a hospital because they were
injured by the police here.

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By Shenonymous, November 2, 2011 at 3:17 pm Link to this comment

Well there is a judge in Oakland that refuses to let the storm
troopers arrest protesters.  Now that is a hero American style. 

Looks like OWS is having some effect on some politicians, and
B of A has rescinded its debit card charges it was planning. 
Hmmmmm The Noble Rabble is gaining some points through
civil disobedience and exercise of Constitutional Rights.  The
Grover Norquist’s Tea Party (formerly known as the Republican
Party) can go to H E Double L. 

The Power of the People.

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By Shenonymous, November 2, 2011 at 3:00 pm Link to this comment

Yes they are heroes of the first order. It looks like Egypt is
providing the model for people of the world, not just for the
Arab nations.  Now if only American pOleese would have the
same epiphany.  I’ve never seen nor heard about that ever
having happened here.  I can’t forget Kent State.  Though
that was the National Guard it was still Americans firing on
Americans.  Just like is happening at the Occupies.

Why would the general public be familiar with sensitive material in any
event?  I suppose some proof can be provided that no damage has been
or can be or is possible to be done? 

It is not likely the guvamint will say much about it until Assange’s trial. 
I’ve worked for aerospace in the past and had top secret clearance.
Classified is classified.  Period.

Some heads are just too mushy to ejumakate.  It is not worth my time to
try.

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By heterochromatic, November 2, 2011 at 2:52 pm Link to this comment

arfie’s canonizing the Egyptian military is not any wiser than drb’s demonizing.


they are what they are, nationalistic, reactionary and far from forces of free-
wheeling democracy or human rights for minorities.

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By Leefeller, November 2, 2011 at 2:46 pm Link to this comment

Well, She, I like question marks, in fact I think they kind of serve a purpose, hence why I use a lot of them myself!

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By ardee, November 2, 2011 at 2:44 pm Link to this comment

My opinion about Wikileaks, as has been posted several times on TD, is that while transparency was forced on several fronts that gave the public rightfully a view of questionable acts and behaviors, and that for the most part whistleblowing is a social device to keep corruption at a minimum (since it will never be absolutely prevented), it is not an absolutely clean preventative, as whistleblowers can also have personal
agendas, but there also was irresponsible disregard by Wikileaks for what was undoubtedly nationally sensitive material not in that class. 

I am unfamiliar with such “sensitive material”, other than offending the sensibilities of those exposed to have had very bad taste coupled with incompetence and sprinkled liberally with stupidity.

I am familiar with the lengths both Wikileaks and The Guardian went to in order to ensure that NO sensitive material that might result in getting someone killed.

Perhaps Shenonymous would deign to edumacate me?

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By ardee, November 2, 2011 at 2:38 pm Link to this comment

The Egyptian military, a precis ( well not really but at least there are not a plethora of question marks…;-)

The Egyptian Army is rather unique in that part of the world for its sympathetic leanings towards the people of Egypt. If one bothers to recall the initial stages of the Arab Spring Egyptian version, one immediately must concede that the army refused violence towards the protestors, set up barricades to inspect people for weapons after thugs began shooting at the protestors in fact.

http://demosthenes.blogspot.com/2011/02/egyptian-army-refused-orders-to-fire.html


Egyptian Army Refused Orders to Fire
Heard it around, confirmed by Robert Fisk:

  Last night, a military officer guarding the tens of thousands celebrating in Cairo threw down his rifle and joined the demonstrators, yet another sign of the ordinary Egyptian soldier’s growing sympathy for the democracy demonstrators. We had witnessed many similar sentiments from the army over the past two weeks. But the critical moment came on the evening of 30 January when, it is now clear, Mubarak ordered the Egyptian Third Army to crush the demonstrators in Tahrir Square with their tanks after flying F-16 fighter bombers at low level over the protesters.

  Many of the senior tank commanders could be seen tearing off their headsets – over which they had received the fatal orders – to use their mobile phones. They were, it now transpires, calling their own military families for advice. Fathers who had spent their lives serving the Egyptian army told their sons to disobey, that they must never kill their own people.

I said it before. I’ll say it again. These men were and are heroes. It was their decision to act like human beings, instead of deadly automatons, that prevented another Tiananmen Square from happening. That this is almost certainly common knowledge in Egypt might help explain why the people are rallying around the Army, instead of rallying against it.

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By heterochromatic, November 2, 2011 at 1:44 pm Link to this comment

drb went out for lunch a while ago, had a couple too many hits of the kool-aid and
hasn’t really returned to the home planet.

he’s having a hard time learning to live without the pure white light of the
beneficent Muammar.


o, how tragic that the pure goodness was cruelly denied finishing out his term of
office as dictator-for-life….......(or maybe he did finish out his term of
employment much the way as he began it)

but anyway, so sad for drb

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By Shenonymous, November 2, 2011 at 1:16 pm Link to this comment

Jeez, also forgot when you copy and paste from TD and you’ve put in
hard returns, you gets lotsa questionmarks.  Ignore them, please.

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By Shenonymous, November 2, 2011 at 1:14 pm Link to this comment

s h o o tttt!  Didn’t close the italics again!  FISH PISS!  I am so sorry! 
I am in a hurry and have to run away for a bit.  Haste makes italics!
Here is it all over again.

aw right heterochromatic – you get a pass this time LOL.

drbehelthi – I can agree with you up to a rational point! “These ?popular
rebellions are now part of world culture and there will be ?ramifications
for the elites, the 1%ers all over the planet.?These “popular rebellions” are
popular in name only, and have ?been part of the “world culture”...
 
Well…y e a h

Since at least the Jews in Egypt 5 or 6 thousand years ago, (uh, several ?
Jewish insurgencies polka dots Jewish history), yeah, Let’s not forget Kirk
?Douglas and Spartacus and the Roman slave revolt 73-71 B.C., but even ?
before that was the Ionian revolt in 6th century B.C.  FYI there were ?
several Slave and other servile revolts in Italy, i.e., 135-132 B.C. the first ?
Sicilian Slave Revolt, the second Sicilian slave Revolt 104-100 B.C. Then I ?
really liked Mel Gibson and the Scottish uprising (you know, Braveheart!). 
?Let’s try the Boxer Rebellion in China about the Chinesse resentment of ?
Christian missionaries trying to convert the Chinese people.  Alas, that ?
one happens time and time again.  Guess people just don’t like being ?
oppresed!

But the rest of your post shows a penchant for the fictional.  Also, the ?
rebellious nature is not about patriotism or nationalism (as in Nazis) but ?
about being subjected to inequality when all men and women are created
?equal in terms of rights and privileges.  Brutality needs to be genetically ?
removed from human character as well as residues groomed out.  You ?
know, like combing the knots out of hair.

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By Shenonymous, November 2, 2011 at 1:09 pm Link to this comment

aw right heterochromatic – you get a pass this time LOL.

drbehelthi – I can agree with you up to a rational point! “These
popular rebellions are now part of world culture and there will be
ramifications for the elites, the 1%ers all over the planet.
These “popular rebellions” are popular in name only, and have
been part of the “world culture”...”   Well…y e a h

Since at least the Jews in Egypt 5 or 6 thousand years ago, (uh, several
Jewish insurgencies polka dots Jewish history), yeah, Let’s not forget Kirk
Douglas and Spartacus and the Roman slave revolt 73-71 B.C., but even
before that was the Ionian revolt in 6th century B.C.  FYI there were
several Slave and other servile revolts in Italy, i.e., 135-132 B.C. the first
Sicilian Slave Revolt, the second Sicilian slave Revolt 104-100 B.C. Then I
really liked Mel Gibson and the Scottish uprising (you know, Braveheart!). 
Let’s try the Boxer Rebellion in China about the Chinesse resentment of
Christian missionaries trying to convert the Chinese people.  Alas, that
one happens time and time again.  Guess people just don’t like being
oppresed! 

But the rest of your post shows a penchant for the fictional.  Also, the
rebellious nature is not about patriotism or nationalism (as in Nazis) but
about being subjected to inequality when all men and women are created
equal in terms of rights and privileges.  Brutality needs to be genetically
removed from human character as well as residues groomed out.  You
know, like combing the knots out of hair.

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By Leefeller, November 2, 2011 at 12:57 pm Link to this comment

drbhelthi, What is your point? Sounds like you are suggesting Occupy Wall Street is sponsored by the CIA,RNA,SPCA, PTA or the AAA?

If Inequality is not real and disfranchisement is not real but instead a figment of some government entities imagination, please enlighten me.

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By drbhelthi, November 2, 2011 at 12:08 pm Link to this comment

a little history is good.  heterochromatic

Comprehending a little history is even better.
The fact of the matter is, the alleged uprising in Egypt was initiated by
U.S.GOV agents, leaders of the current military dictatorship of Egypt were
trained in the U.S. Army institutes, and are carrying out the policy of the
current U.S. administration.  Just as NATO carried out the policy of the
USGOV against Muammar al Ghaddafi. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHVlU2jHT70&feature=related

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By heterochromatic, November 2, 2011 at 11:52 am Link to this comment

drb,

the Egyptian military leadership is far, far to the right of the USA and has been for
many, many a long year before its relatively recent acquaintanceship with the
American military.

a little history is good.

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By drbhelthi, November 2, 2011 at 11:43 am Link to this comment

These popular rebellions are now part of world culture and there will be ramifications for the elites, the 1%ers all over the planet.  shenonymous

These “popular rebellions” are popular in name only, and have been part of the “world culture” since the Hitler entourage reorganized the duties of the OSS into the C.I.A., 1947, and began to initiate coup d’etat in Asia.  All insiders and former insiders know that they are not home-land initiated rebellions, but rather government overthrows initiated by CIA, MI6, Mossad and hirelings, just as explained by various CIA whistle-blowers, John Stockwell being among the foremost.  http://wn.com/JOHN_AND_THE_CIA

One need only look at the military dictatorship in Egypt, to discern the direction taken by all such frauds.  The Egyptian military leadership, having been indoctrinated by the U.S. Army in its institutes for O-5, SES-1 and higher, share the underlying philosophy of the U.S. Military-Industrial dictatorship, as currently demonstrated in Egypt. 

Terry p., your observation sized up and predicted the situation accurately, “we live in a new kind of gestapo state with no freedom guaranteed now and none at all in the future.”  Bloggers, who utilize explanatory verbosity to disagree, are either exceedingly naïve, or else, are functional shills of the current U.S./Zionist administration.  Regardless of how many verbose blogs they turn out, and how they attempt to monitor and refute the thoughts of others, they ignore the historical facts.  Well-informed people, who recognize the blogging pattern of such “spinners,” do not permit themselves to become sucked in by repeated blogs of jargon that read nicely, but which suppress accurate information, while extending the conundrum.  Such persons are the corollary of the destructive agent-goons that are sent into activities such as OWS, to behave provocatively, in order to provide the goons among the police with falsified grounds to brutalize the demonstrating participants.

Fortunately, some intelligent patriots among the police – and political leadership – are beginning to exercise their intelligence and voices and not shrink back from the political goons who monologue brutality.

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By Leefeller, November 2, 2011 at 11:36 am Link to this comment

Since we are off topic, I thought I would try my hand at it!

I love it when people inseminate premonitions only never to be held accountable for them, I am still waiting for the rapture!

Occupy Wall Street actually here it is called (Occupy Soggy Bits) is growing.  Even though Soggy Bits is a small town full of Republican misogynists,  it seems they are all excited about the protests, but may be mixing their facts with their liquor.  Republicans are excited about participating in the protest for it is there simple minded understanding the protests involve getting to ‘Chase’ a ‘B’-it of ‘A’-ss? Now rumor control has even said Hermon lobotomist Cane will attend to lead the charge!

Inequality is real, so is disenfranchisement and more people are becoming aware!

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By heterochromatic, November 2, 2011 at 11:21 am Link to this comment

but.but, but ,buuut Sher———I’m just agreeing with what terry bleated about
Assange being tortured while in Sweden!!!!1\\

I mean he’s wanted for questioning, so how can we possibly think that he won’t be
tortured?

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By Shenonymous, November 2, 2011 at 11:14 am Link to this comment

heterochromatic, Nov. 2 11:03 am – you might take your own
cautions to heart that you give to others, and show evidence of
your wild accusations.  But if you are omniscient, Que sera sera,
thank you Doris Day.

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By heterochromatic, November 2, 2011 at 11:03 am Link to this comment

terry——no telling how long in a extremely small cell and tortured while waiting
to be tried——-

Both the UK and Sweden torture everyone, especially prisoners!

He’ll never make it out of Sweden alive, All we’ll ever see is a stunt double, and the
real Assange will be killed, ground up into pytt i panna and fed to drunken
tourists, probably fascists from Northern Ireland.

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By Shenonymous, November 2, 2011 at 10:10 am Link to this comment

Wasn’t the country that will extradite Assange called England? 
He has yet to face the justice system of the United States so has
not yet been found guilty. It is spurious to declare gestapoism to
a nation that while does commit its own infractions, for the most
part it mitigates crimes more in a court system than any other
country.  Justice for one may not be justice for another but
reactionary emotionalism does no one any good, especially the
likes of Assange who needs a more calm and rational audience
more than ever. 

My opinion about Wikileaks, as has been posted several times on TD,
is that while transparency was forced on several fronts that gave the
public rightfully a view of questionable acts and behaviors, and that
for the most part whistleblowing is a social device to keep corruption
at a minimum (since it will never be absolutely prevented), it is not an
absolutely clean preventative, as whistleblowers can also have personal
agendas, but there also was irresponsible disregard by Wikileaks for
what was undoubtedly nationally sensitive material not in that class. 
The ignorance to not be able to make distinctions is the problem of
wholesale publishing anything that came into the hands of Wikileaks
managers.  I do not see Assange as a god.  Just as dignity is sacrificed
in struggles sometimes, discretion can also be irrationally sacrificed. 

terry p, I have ordered The Web of Debt and look forward to reading it.
I’ve downloaded a number of reviews to read as I wait its delivery that
give a broad description of Brown’s theory, one of which includes her
response to a criticism.  From what I can tell, she has good insight into
how the system works against the public.

It looks like we can agree on many things, but not all.  A typical human
interaction.  That is what makes the world interesting.  I am always
willing to listen to well-constructed fact-based arguments, not
so much emotional opinions.

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By terry p, November 2, 2011 at 7:59 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Julian Assange lost his battle. He will be extradited to Sweden. This means he will also most assuredly be extradited to a prison to wait, no telling how long in a extremely small cell and tortured while waiting to be tried for espionage at the convenience of Obama and the Attorney General of the USA.
We live in a new kind of gestapo state with no freedom guaranteed now and none at all in the future. I’d rather die spreading the word than go along with this evil country and the false dictator political candidates who do the bidding of profit oriented corporations at all cost.
Long live the occupation and may it never stop growing till the enemy (.o1%) is defeated and prosecuted!!!!

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By terry p, November 1, 2011 at 8:08 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

By What Is Progress, October 31 at 5:58 am

“How is the grass in the park?  Trampled to mud long ago I assume?  And that overall appearance of strung together blue tarps?  Impractical and an eyesore.  OK, fine, it is what it is at this moment in time.  OWS leaders: re-assess continuously.  What does it mean to live sustainably and with quiet dignity?  In a manner that will command the respect of your enemies?”
————————————-

Dignity is sacrificed in struggles, sometimes. Survival isn’t pretty and these true patriots need understanding. We have to get our hands dirty at times. Grass can be replaced - it’s relatively cheap - so can dignity if we win a few battles.

Your absolutely right. It all takes organization. Just as the participants bought cleaning equipment and cleaned the park while back, which made the reason to evict pointless, they can also replace the grass and clean up again after this early winter storm invasion. It shows resolve, pride and commitment.


There is a forum, and from the looks of your comments, you would be a real asset. Modern survival technology is really interesting. The forum link is http://occupywallst.org/. All you have to do is create a user name and password to get started.

tp

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By terry p, November 1, 2011 at 7:51 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shenonymous, October 30 at 3:36 pm

Sorry for the delay. I had car trouble. A tow truck involved. I’ve obviously been out and about!—- I’m tired:(

Hopefully you’re still paying attention to this set of comments if for no other reason but for me to tell you I agree with you completely. Couldn’t have explained it much better myself, as though that would’ve been expected:)

I don’t have time to comment often. But @ times I’m compelled to add my unqualified convictions. This movement has inspired me to do just that. When I do respond to comments I usually go by tp or terry p, which is the first part of my real name. Can’t go completely naked dontcha know:?)I just created Synonymos recently on OWS and only commented once when I signed up.

Although, I have seen your user name before I wasn’t thinking of it when I created mine. I was actually thinking of Anonymous used by Julian Assange. He, in my opinion, is responsible and the hero of the movement even though it has been in all our hearts for eons. He simply told the truths of whistle blowers.

I’m looking forward to your review of “The Web Of Debt”.

tp

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, October 31, 2011 at 5:58 am Link to this comment

Admittedly, the last post was a smattering, but there is something there I’m just putting my finger on.  The dignity of the people claiming to represent the 99%. 

People should live in a dignified way and demand deserved respect.  It is somehow fitting that the OWS people are occupying lands from which native Ameiricans were displaced. 

OWS: your dignity are the buffalo.  Don’t let them kill your buffalo.  There are 1000 small things which will allow the City of NY to impose itself into the OWS community, most of which trace back to embarrassing behaviors by the standards imposed by NYC. 

I know what was bugging me about the request for shipping pallets by OWS:  as an under-structure to the tents, rats will be drawn to the dry, warm places.  In one of many foreseeable and undignified final blow to the ‘movement’, NYC, for reasons of public health, would raze what appears to be no more dignified than a disease and filth ridden refugee camp.

How is the grass in the park?  Trampled to mud long ago I assume?  And that overall appearance of strung together blue tarps?  Impractical and an eyesore.  OK, fine, it is what it is at this moment in time.  OWS leaders: re-assess continuously.  What does it mean to live sustainably and with quiet dignity?  In a manner that will command the respect of your enemies? 

Invest the donations wisely.  Assume they will eventually stop.  What regrets would you have then about what was purchased?  Your situation mirrors that of the earth.  Many people on a small amount of land.  Some wealth (oil, coal, etc. for the earth, compares to some half million in cash for OWS).  Show us you are enlightened. 

Aside from moving toward basic biological sustainability, show us also in some clear way, that it is unsustainable to follow the unrestrained growth ideology put forth by those who would enslave you by controlling your money.

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By Shenonymous, October 30, 2011 at 10:59 pm Link to this comment

What Is Progress, Oct. 30 5:49 pm – Your post knocked my socks
off.  I won’t send them to the Protesters but I’ll send them some
new clean ones.  Your survival Rx is worth printing and pasting
on the fridge, oh…yeah, and passing on and on and on…Thank you. 
It was an act of towering kindness.

heterochromatic, Oct. 30 5:25 pm -  That would be sensible.

This is an interesting experiment of the American people. Who would
have thought they were so noble?  If OWS and siblings survive the winter
that will be historic, well it already is historic, but I meant if it is hardy
enough, it will be more than monumental. There may be other non-out-
in-the-street/park venues to continue the protest at least in the
inclement weather states.  Maybe the southern states and southern part
of California would still be friendly to outdoorsy action???

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John Best asks,

By John Best asks, "What IS Progress"?, October 30, 2011 at 5:49 pm Link to this comment

It pisses me off that the police are confiscating generators.  Keeping the communications and video gear charged up is important.  God help them if there weren’t any cell phone cameras. 

Anyway, though I have very little confidence in a group who can’t carry their own weight, I do admire their spirit.  Perhaps a few tips might help them.

Hand/foot warmers have their place, but they produce litter and I’m not so sure about their sustainability.  Better to think of improved technologies which might work in the long run.  Try this: http://www.tacticalintelligence.net/blog/how-to-make-a-survival-stove-car-heater.htm

Also, placing your foot in a plastic grocery bag (right before putting your shoes on) retains a bit more heat. 

They are going to need a serious ‘warm-up shed’.  If they can build a sweat lodge,  http://www.welcomehome.org/rob/sweat/sweat.html it might help keep both body and spirit warm.  Somebody needs to come up with a way to build a sweat lodge from a collection of poncho’s and walking sticks.  Everybody should have a military poncho and a stout 6 foot staff (or walking stick).  Whatever they build, it needs to be something that can be disassembled and carried away in 5 minutes so it doesn’t get confiscated. 

What else?  I’d say they need a survival strategy that doesn’t make a muddy mess of the place, and is ‘nomadic modern’.  Keeping off the ground is critical, but I don’t like the idea of shipping palettes.  They’re heavy and have enough of a feeling of permanence that I get a bad feeling about them, I don’t know why.  Good firewood though. 

Lots of high calorie food is important.  Hot food.  Here’s a winner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squab_(food)  Figure out how to cook it on a stick without using utelsils or tableware.  This sort of thinking will put less strain on sanitation facilities. 

Sustainability.  Portability.  With the ability to keep these bits of group survival gear from being confiscated.  Lots of little stoves vs. economy of scale.  All in all, surviving the winter will provide a microcosm of all the lessons of governing a society.  I hope they think things through and do some research until what they want and what they need are the same thing.

And, without doubt, people are going to get sick.  There needs to be not only a wellness and care plan, but a media plan. None of the 99% want to see the campers portrayed as reckless incompetents, who got what they deserved.  Certainly they will be taken more seriously if they can show it was not lack of preparation or planning that lead to whatever problems they encounter. 

Damn, I’m really disgusted that the generators were confiscated.  Now the group is forced to open flame for light, heat, and cooking.  A bicycle powered generator and a car battery would be enough to ensure the cell phones stay charged. 

Blending the nomadic with the modern, I’d suggest anyone entering the winter encampment in NYC do so with a very thoughtfully stocked travois http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travois These can be lashed together as frameworks, and with the modern equivalent of buffalo hide (plastic sheets and poncho’s) can form a decent shelter. 

Is there a forum where the basic survival gear of a protester is in an (ever being optimized) list?  What about survival knowledge?  This is a unique urban survival situation, where a media friendly style also matters.  The Boy Scout Handbook isn’t even close, but it’s a good start.  Army field manuals might be useful.  But I suspect a combination of clever use of new materials combined with techniques of the native American peoples might yield sustainable integrated inter-operable technologies to win the day. 

Despite the laughable timing of the OWS movement, I’d like them to learn their way through it.  Is there a site where workable, comprehensive occupation technologies, logistics and training might be developed?  You know damn well the 1% wants the 99% to freeze.

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By heterochromatic, October 30, 2011 at 5:25 pm Link to this comment

Sher—they are working on renting winter quarters and thinking of only
maintaining a small presence in the Park until warm weather returns.

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By Shenonymous, October 30, 2011 at 5:06 pm Link to this comment

heterochromatic, October 30 at 3:45 pm - I’m impressed they
collected that many dollars.  A few of them are mine! LOL

Thank you for providing the link to the money donations.  It
wouldn’t work so I googled it.  FAWII (For anyone who is
interested):

Had to make a TinyURL since the link was really long, 182 characters!
http://tinyurl.com/44fngna
Occupy Wall Street Raises $450,000
October 29, 2011 - Associated Press Release

It was a story released to Fox News.com that reported most of the
spending is for food, clothing, laundry, medical supplies and treatment,
Internet services, cameras and telephone and computer expenses.

Yup, just as I said, stuff…and medical supplies and treatment.  I think
they will need many many more blankets.  Unless some charity
organization who don’t owe fealty to any of the large corporations or
Wall Street financier philanthropists open their halls to the brave Occupy
Wall Streeters.

The report of the Portland, Oregon fracas with police was just broadcast
on CNN.  Interviews with both protesters and police were most
interesting.  It was a peaceful rousting by police, both sides claimed
civility by both sides.  No tear gas, no pepper spray, just peaceful action,
no one was hurt.

I heard Angela Davis, that amazing force in the 60-70s.  She visited a
few of the Occupies, in NY and Philadelphia, she was amazing once
again!

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By heterochromatic, October 30, 2011 at 3:45 pm Link to this comment

I know it because they announced it at one of their meetings a few days back,
(attended by one of my family members),  and then released a statement.

http://news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-occupy-wall-street-raises-450-000-
215144499.html

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By Shenonymous, October 30, 2011 at 3:36 pm Link to this comment

The people of the US, terry p, have been so repressed for so long,
so many not really cognizant of how it was insidiously eroding their
well-being, that now that an eruption has taken place it was like a
jolt of reality and every cause will now be assimilated into the OWS
movement, not only there but in all the Occupy protests everywhere. 
It has become the vehicle for the people to actually become a voice. 
I think that is terrific and something that will catapult awareness like
nothing has ever before for millions and millions of people who never
paid attention before.  It looks very different from the 70s.

The way I see it, these groups are now each like a whole organism and
act and move as a unified whole.  I am thrilled to be able to witness the
power of the people.  The American People.  I’ve been saying for years
on Truthdig, Vlast? narodu!  Power to the People!  Also I’ve been using
my name since 2007 and use it on all the blogs on which I participate
besides Truthdig.  No sense in having an index of names, I figure.
I yam who I yam when I’m incognito. 

heterochromatic, Oct. 30 12:48pm – How do you know they have a half
million bucks from donations?  I’m thinking if they do they will need it
for advertisements, get people out of jail, pay their bail, lots of things,
maybe medical attention for some who will suffer frost bite, help other
Occupy efforts around the country.  You know, stuff.  Go to their
website.  Do you think they are lying?

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