Something to think about:  Once you get into a war, all talk of which side is “better” in the sense of morality is pretty much nonsense.  Both sides think they are right and will justify anything they do as necessary, inevitable, unavoidable, an “accident” or even “heroic.”  Usually they even believe what they say.  If they doubted, they wouldn’t be able to kill each other.
  Thus it completely escapes their attention that both are wrong. Even today you will find a lot of people (who have not been to Hiroshima or seen any of the victims) say that the A-bomb was justified because of Pearl Harbor.  Actually, the destruction in both cases was wrong, and the A-bomb killed and sickened many, many more people.  But we aren’t counting them.  Just like we aren’t counting the people we kill today and tomorrow.  Just like the corporatioins don’t count the damage their pollution does and the banks don’t count the pain their foreclosures cause.
  Odd, when you stop to think about it—but that’s the way it works—until enough people stop to think about it.

dmonika well at least you got 1 answer right on this thread so congratulations!! even a blind hog finds a acorn once in awhile

Hey fool, my name is Dominick, get it right.  And I’ve spent enough time here with you.  Have a good life.

dominika, the dufus incharge is under pressue?? Like its hindering his golf game, date night, touring the world and bowing to everyone he see’s Yep that sure is a lot of pressure.
Foolishly your trying to equate afgan casualities to ours outragous!!!! The talabam and alkida have used the populace as human shields much like hamas. so the troops are left with no good options other than taking out the site where they exist or sustain casualities. Our guys aren’t there to be used as target practice so unles the afganies turn on the insurgents then its just too bad

mandinka I hardly think Hilary said she had an extensive militray background.
I also don’t think I’m one of few who admire President Obama for his work.  Just to let you know I do NOT condone sending more troops into Afganastan, but you know that doesn’t make Obama a failure.  You’re entitled to your opinion and for all purposes and intent that’s all it is an opinion.  You’re not there you don’t see or hear all the dialogue or even comprehend all the pressure he’s under.
Oh and by the way, that duffus you so lovelingly call Barak knows full well what is happening to men and women, but what the media fails to tell you is what damage we have caused the other side.  Do you think this is a one sided war?  The caualties on the other side is just as high and in the civilian secter as well.

This one issue of Afghanistan will prove Obama’s administration a convoluted waste of a presidency.

I mean, it’s easier (than for LBJ) for him to do what he’s about to and just as easy as it was for Bush. Because there ain’t no draft! Blood simple. Hence, all of the youngsters play with their I-Pods, there is no crisis in the streets and evil presides. Rangel is right: bring back the draft.

All of the lives unfullfilled, once upon a time and presently, with this mounting folly. Those of my friends in high school - Jim Anderson and Jack Downs. That of my cousin. Their lives squandered and here now on Thanksgiving Day I remember the captain in the medical corps at Camp Enari, south of Pleiku, collapsing in my arms just having come from the Fourth Division operating room. A total breakdown.

Horror then and horror now. Peace be not with you, Obush. And may the bodhisattva of tradgedy sit on your face forever. John Kennedy was something of a giant; you’ve already proven yourself to be nothing more than a corporate errand boy.

Thank you gerard and the same to you and to the rest of the visitors here!

dear dominick the strategies that i referenced weren’t from the military but from state. I realize that hilary has an extensive military background , she said she once visited a marine recruiting station.
but when your casualties even a dufus like barak should be able to say this ain’t working and maybe give up a few gold games and let the military run the military.
feel free to defend barak your 1 of the few that still thinks he’s a good president but then again your in the minority

To all you crazy people out there:

      HAPPY THANKSGIVING ANYWAY
        IN SPITE OF BAD NEWS!

“The specialists.”  Oh yes…

As conditions on the ground deteriorated and the relationship between the Diem brothers and the American embassy became ever more insidious, Kennedy threw up his hands and yelled “My administration is coming apart!”

Rather than listen to all of the specialists and especially to his national security staff, Kennedy ought to have sent a 707 out to pick up Halberstam and bring him to Washington, have a helicopter waiting at Andrews to ferry the pre-eminent reporter of the era to the White House, then take him upstairs for dinner and drinks and let the man on the ground open up, take hours (all night long even) to describe the hideous reality in South Vietnam (particularly the precincts surrounding the American embassy in Saigon).

And what did Kennedy actually do? He called up Sulzberger and tried to get Halberstam recalled and be fired.  THAT is how bad a national security staff can fuck up a commander in chief’s mind!

Now, our man will pronounce from on high at West Point. Nothing has changed and let’s all hope he doesn’t speak of “peace with honor.” LBJ, Nixon’s predecessor, didn’t want to be seen as weak and presently, the nation’s first African American chief executive doesn’t either.

Who pays the cost? Are you willing to be this era’s Hubert Humphrey, Joe?

Gerard,

  you say: “the psychological well-being of a crucial number of Americans is dependent upon “staying the course” (no matter how wrong).”

After having served in a war zone once upon a long ago time, after dealing with military mindsets every weekday and having seen the movie called Doctor Strangelove, I hereby allege that “the psychological stability of a crucial number of Americans is dependent upon “staying the course””, no matter the greater degree to which reality intrudes.

And if reality becomes alltogether too real for them, they’ll simply want to carpet-bomb the whole place with nukes and be done with it. We’ll see how big Obush’s nuts are when we get to that point.

The only difference this time around is that the invaders won’t be soused on vodka. They’ll have their headphones on instead.

Ah Dear mandinka but I am conversant on the topic.  Unless you mean to be disrepectful Barak is a proper name and should be capitalized-sorry.
Secondly he doesn’t call any shots he isn’t informed about on his own.  Which means he doesn’t change the rules of engagement, unless he’s given some choices from those in charge of the situation.  SO maybe you should read Purple Girls remark.
The two items you site where items that were proposed to him from those working in that area and know best. 

I think you need to be more conversant on the subject as none of the stratagies are his but what is brought to him and I will conntinue to defend Mr. Obama.

Every day I’m waiting, hoping, praying that Purple Girl’s first sentence is true.  But when you now that a crucial number of jobs are dependent upon war, directly or indirectly, and a crucial amount of money is spent on war, and the psychological well-being of a crucial number of Americans is dependent upon “staying the course” (no matter how wrong) and if not “winning” at least not “losing”—plus the face that reasonable alternatives are “off the table” without even being considered, it doesn’t leave a lot of room for hope. In an unconsciously self-destructive way it seems that QUAGMIRES R US these days.

Dear Dominick i assume with your comment that you have no idea what barak has changed in the rules of engagement that the troops operate under in Af/Iraq. So let me widen your knowlege base.
> Troops in Iraq can no longer use and ride in uparmored vehicles during the day since it sends the “wrong ” message!!!
> in Afganistan the troops can no longer call in air strikes unless they can insure there will be no civilain casualities or collateral damage. Pilots before they can bomb/straf have to be able to identify the bad guys on the ground. They have to “see” them holding weapons before they acn fire.

As a result of this brilliant strategy each month the KIA and wounded in afganistan are wors than the month before. So I would suggest that before you defend barak at least be conversant on the topic

The United States is Not a Military dictatorship, no matter what the Repugs say.
Although I think Obama should Listen to the Generals,I would hope a Wise president would also listen to the perspectives of say The State Dept, His economic advisors, even a few allies.
Someone should point out to the Repugs that when they defer to the Generals, they are not only undermining the powers of the presidency, but also both houses of Congress. Then every committee hearing, every inquiry, every investigation held by any part of congress must defer to what the Generals want or claim.
Repugs are weak on defense because that is their only focus. It’s myopic to only focus on the military aspects, esp when in a region notorious for defeating Military superpowers- century after century.
I wouldn’t be just listneing to the Generals, I would be listening to Experts in the region as well. I’d be talking to people with Global perspectives, International affairs. A historical perspective. This is a Quagmire with a Resume. Time to look at it from more perspectives than only those that have failed.

mandinka says: in baraks case his brilliant war statergery has caused record casualties in Afghanistan 6 months
****************************************************
What is going on in Afghanistan isn’t due to anything done by President Obama Let ALONE his brilliant strategy.  Why not try blaming the folks who are stratigically to blame and while you’re at it how about referring to those same guys who want to keep this war going, the war mongering consrevative Right!!

I don’t find the artist credit for the painting or if it’s something else, there’s no artist credit.

Even if JFK’s “dithering” over Viet Nam offers a practical example for Barack Obama, his fate and the connection his non-escalation intentions likely played in it is no-doubt an even more persuasive object lesson for the latest “young president.”  If the AfPak quagmire were merely a matter of (more-or-less) “rational” policy, the probabilities “going forward” would be grim enough.  That the thing is in actuality symptomatic of a severe institutional disease, however, renders the prospects are orders-of-magnitude worse….for all CONcerned.

It appears homo domesticus have gotten theirown"selfs” and each others’ into a predicament they have no means at their disposal to get out-of.  No wonder so many look for “divine” intervention to save them from their folly.  Then there are those CONvinced they’re going to “invent” their way out of the mess.  Nevermind how punch-drunkenly they’ve invented their way into it.

Living Worlds address “problems” of disequilibrium in Living Ways.  Make-believe institutional set-ups and other self-serving CONceits can only worsen the shared plight of our tame Sisters and Brothers.

After “all-else” has indeed failed them, The Tiyoshpaye Way will still be here for any survivors to take.

HokaHey!

there is a big difference between the stature of the 2 men and there ability 1 had it the other doesn’t.
As for waiting with Kennedy waiting wasn’t costing any lives, in baraks case his brilliant war statergery has caused record casualties in Afghanistan 6 months running. So sending more troops will only generate more casualties with his moronic restrictions on the military.
Barak said all troops out of Iraq in 16 months tic tock. Sounds like we need to get the pitchforks out and march on the WH in May

I agree with you KDelphi. What job do we need to finish?  It will never be “finished.” 

I hope Obamas decision is swift and a strong and steady NO More troops.

Currently, I am reading the recent book by James Douglass, JFK and the Unspeakable. Like most others who lived during the 1960s, I remember where I was when the announcement came that President Kennedy was dead. Even as kids, we knew he was bucking the system.

The documentation in the book is meticulous. Nothing is left to the imagination.

“Not making a decision is making one.”—KDelphi

A very astute observation. And, I agree with you.

Obama and the cheap, pulp fiction assassins he has surrounded himself with are the types who watch bad, violent movies and cheer each decapitation, each flaming body running down the road until it drops dead.  Holding their Eskimo Bars, they thrust them sharply, as if putting a knife into some villain’s throat.  This is the scum controlling U.S, foreign policy.

Anarcissie,
  forces introduced into the situation in Vietnam by Kennedy were only for assistance and advisory purposes. These were MAAG forces. No American combat soldiers were fighting against the Viet Cong at the time that JFK was killed. His experience in the Navy and with the Bay of Pigs and Cuban Missile crises had instilled great scepticism in him in regards to cigar chomping generals - particularly General Curtiss LeMay - who was destined for eternal memorialization by Peter Sellars’ in Dr. Strangelove.

KDelphi:

Oh, that’s an easy one—we want to kill all those fundamentalist, Islamo-fascist “Mozlems.” Got to make the world safe for freedom and democracy.

Here we go again.  On the day Kennedy took office, there were 1100 American soldiers in Vietnam.  On the day he died, there were about 17,000.

We’re all idealistic.  Some of us have different ideals than some others, however.

Interesting that Obama with his long-drawn-out agonizing over whether or not to send 40,000 more soldiers to Afghanistan is being compared now with Hamlet, the classical model of indecision.  To be or not to be?
  As Prince of Denmark, Hamlet, so the story goes, drove himself and others crazy with his agonizing decision over whom to kill and how many, though his battle was limited to a mere family affair, not an international disaster.  Finally he lost everything by losing his own way, having been responsible directly and indirectly for the deaths of other principals in the plot whom he suspected – rightly and wrongly.  In the end the question remains as to whether or not he should have killed anybody.  Maybe it would have been “nobler” not to have “resisted” the “slings and arrows of outrageous Fortune” which was the God of Kings in those days. Maybe a less violent decision would have been “nobler.”
  Obama’s indecision will affect far more people’s lives than Hamlet’s family feud.  Hundreds, perhaps thousands more innocent heads will roll in a far-away country bereft of the sophisticated tools of war being used against them., but whose warriors are no less belligerent.  And the aftermath, whatever the outcome, will not – cannot – be repaired.   
  Furthermore, the complications of Obama’s agonizing decision are grounded far below visibility.  Hamlet had simply to follow a personal code of honor, or not as the case might be.  Obama has to try to balance one obvious force with a much more subversive power behind the scenes – the Military Industrial Complex of factories, corporations and agencies furnishing the weapons, supplies, equipment and personnel to protect the livelihoods and the divided loyalties of his people at home and overseas, as well as to serve his sense of personal obligation.. 
  In the end Hamlet finds himself dueling his friend and compatriot,  his fellow Dane, his alter-ego perhaps, whose sister he has killed by inadvertence.  Obama may find, to his sorrow, that (unlike Hamlet)  he is alive at the end of the “play,” But his “noble heart may crack” and, empty of will and honor, he may be defeated by yet “another Vietnam” – a “war of choice” fought by people who should have known better.
  Both were young men.  Both were idealistic.  Both were confused by counter-forces beyond their control.  But, as always, “the play’s the thing…. to catch a king” and we are all in it together.  If Obama makes the wrong decision – which is extremely likely considering the forces allied against him – we also will pay the price.

Not making a decision is making one. We already have people there—soldiers and civilians are dying everyday.

I wish someone would explain to me what “job” it is we “have to finish”.