prisnersdilema said I’m sure that some where, and some when, before the French revolution, that the aristocracy, and the nobles, engaged in endless discussion, of pointless poltical points of view, over their abundant dinners, in posh surroundings.

Yes. There was a governmental mechanism in France to improve things, to make a more equitable government that would be more responsive to the will of the people, and just as important… to implement the best principles of liberty.

However, I do not think there was endless discussion of the project, or at least not enough serious discussion. There certainly wasnt enough discussion which took all points of view seriously, letting all ideas from all sides be proved on their merit.

Oblivous to the anger, that was beginning to erupt among the French people. To them it was of little consequence. Until the Guillotine fell on their necks.

ah, the Guillotine, that mighty Solver of All Problems. And the Terror, dont forget that, because the Guillotine is for everyone.

The disruption of every institution in France resulted in chaos, which led to a dictatorship. And then in a few decades another dictatorship. It would be many generations before France would mend. As a Conservative right wing person, i will never understand the Progressive happiness over that.

Could the French have arrived at a better place over the same time by working within the existing institutions instead of tearing them apart?

Can we do this today? Can we have those serious discussions?

Are we having them now?

No. We are not. That is my judgement about Truthdig, where the highest aspiration is that political enemies will someday get it in the neck.

<blockquote>
JDmysticDJ, February 4 at 1:58 am:

As a way of explanation I’ll offer that “Proggies” believe the government should serve the people, while the “Rightists” believe that government should serve the corporations.

I’m sure rightists think they’re ‘serving the people’ too.  After all, the fates of most of them are tied to the corporations they work for and depend upon for most of the goods and services they use.  So as long as you’re ‘serving the people’ it’s all right to call the cops.  This idea is in very much in accord rightist notions of authority, hierarchy and property; the question is why proggies are so enamored of it, given its obvious dangers.

Marcus doesn’t get it.

LARGE government becomes corrupt, by nature. Whether Empire, Kingdom, Caliphate, Democracy, Commie Union, or Church-ocracy. Not one example, in history, can be stated otherwise.

Lack of LAWS, and the current favoritism that clings to large government, also corrupts. Hence the Constitution, which is designed to be followed.

Small government ideas and rule of law is the only thing to prevent tyranny from within.

Which is what we have now.

So basic but way beyond her grasp.

“The serious news… out of President Obama’s remarks at the National Prayer
Breakfast” was his pandering to the proto-fascist religious right.  Appalling.

What kind of ethical contortions and willful blindness must the author engage in to be in favor of morality and the Constitution, yet also feel Obama’s words breathlessly ”resonate” with her?

What part of the Constitution mandates unlawful search and seizures, extraordinary rendition, torture, kidnapping, assassination and one of the highest incarceration rates in the world?

Where’s the morality in being the front-man for a cynical, criminal Wall Street syndicate that is systematically corrupting the rule of law into a neo-feudal rentier economy?

How can the mass murder of civilians around the world against all the rules of law and treaties of war “resonate” with anyone but a psychopath?

This entry could be laughed off as starry-eyed rubbish, but considering the source it reads more like cynical self-parody: the overpaid court scribe, stuffing herself with Sunday morning muffins at a fake prayer breakfast, fawning over the implied divinity of the king while the mob gathers ominously outside.

More to the point, what is this badly written, syndicated slop doing on this site anyway? Because Ruth Marcus is not writing for free. Does the “Washington Post Writers Group” need more venues for its Establishment chicanery? Do we need more outlets for imperialist propaganda from the core of corruption?

Is Truthdig besieged by letters to the editor demanding more prostrate apologists for a bought-and-paid for front-man of the global mafia elites?

Am I going to hit the ‘donate’ button to help some navel-gazing, Beltway ho “resonate” with the regime?

I think not.

I’m sure that some where, and some when, before the French revoution, that the aristocracy, and the nobles, engaged in endless discussion, of pointless poltical points of view, over their abundant dinners, in posh surroundings.

Oblivous to the anger, that was beginning to erupt among the French people. To them it was of little consequence. Until the Guillotine fell on their necks.

Conservative voices have provided an outlet to angry Americans, as has the Tea Party, harmlessly venting, years of frustration, with our government, and the betrayers in Washington.

For a time this was pallative. No longer.

Americans, are starving, and freezing to death, while your standing around and joking.

Our government/constitution is being manipulated by teabaggers, corp’s., and corporate consertives and corp. Democrates. It’s so in your face when you see it on the news that it almost takes me by suprise. How in the corndog hell did this happen AGAIN? Are the American people so goddamn stupid as to believe and then elect the same Republican party to the majority in the House of Representatives that screwed this country into the ground. Don’t answer that it’d just piss me off. Its mindboggling, astounding, disturbing and just plain fucking sad.

Patriot101, you are correct in your statement with the ommision of the “war on crime” and “zero tolerance” coming just in time for “privatized prisons” which have simply found a way to revive the slave trade by trafficking in people for profit. It’s no real surprise that the majority of inmates, correction, all of the inmates are poor and/or minorities. The politicians making the laws, the police forces enforcing the laws, and the judges sentencing the “criminals” all have stock directly or through managed funds that profit mightily by the 2 million Americans incarcerated and the millions more who are caught up in the system.
In the mean time we are at each others throats over religion, immigration status, sexual preference, and the ubiquitous(sp) abortion debate. We have a foriegn owned propaganda station and a media owned part and parcel by corporations who have no problem, in fact compete, to keep the American people at each others throats while they laugh all the way to the criminal banks.
The system has become so draconian under both parties, that if you attempt to obtain an education you will be saddled with a growing debt that will never go away. If you lose your job and default on consumer credit, the Government can charge you taxes on the debt as income, another debt that will follow you to the grave.
If your credit suffers, you can be turned down for a job because of your credit rating. A cool way to discriminate with impunity.
If you have a sick baby, it’s a pre-existing condition that, if you want your child to live you must divest yourself of all your possesions, end up in debt and unemployable. And if you don’t have the money, your child will be left to die. So much for “right to life”.

There is no such thing as a Democrat or Republican/teabagger party. With the exception of Bernie Sanders, there is no one in Government who cares or legislates for the people anymore. The corporations write the laws and the judicial system enforces them. Say goodbye to the EPA and other agencies to protect us that survived the gutting by Bush and Company. Profit over Planet will be running rampant in the coming years and those rich enough will be able to move from unlivable areas while the people who made them rich will be abandoned.

—“As Obama described the debate, ‘one side’s version of compassion and community may be interpreted by the other side as an oppressive and irresponsible expansion of the state or an unacceptable restriction on individual freedom.’”
  Let’s face facts here for a change:  People who “interpret” compassion and community (whether individual or governmental) as “oppressive and irresponsible restrictions on individual freedom” are pulling your leg.  Truth is, they themselves don’t feel compassion and do not experience deep community with others.  They are fearful of losing what little they have (no matter how much that “little” may be) and think there is not enough to go round so what goes to others leaves less for them. 
  A huge problem with capitalism as a system is that it is so largely “compassiono-free” and “community-killing.”  It’s all for “me”, “I” or “us” and the rest of humanity can go to hell. Worse yet, “they” don’t “deserve” anything because “they” are generally “not worth their salt” etc. etc.
  Witness the current “market economy”, the Wall Street crooks and “banksters.” 
  Frankly, these two ideas—compassion/community and capitalism—are mutually exclusive and that fact sorely needs to be faced.

As a way of explanation I’ll offer that “Proggies” believe the government should serve the people, while the “Rightists” believe that government should serve the corporations.

I expect rightists to be deceptive.  I am more curious about the love self-styled progressives profess for government.  You know, it is part of their shtick.  Rightists are supposed to be bad (as above with Marcus) because they ‘hate government’.  Proggies stand around enabling this deception, and contrast themselves with it.

I think it all needs some explanation.

The irony is that they scream about fiscal responsibility, personal freedom, and invoke the constitution in their rantings, yet are mute to the utterly massive expenditures to military invasions and rebuilding of what we have destroyed. It’s a shell game where we pay the taxes and they hand them over to various corporate entities. Haliburton has made trillions as the no-bid war machine and the Saudi Bin Laden family has made billions as the largest construction company in the middle east. The whole mess is a sham to bilk the American people.

I find it shocking that we as a nation have stood by and watched the repugs loot the treasury on their way out of power and now vowing to do the same now that they are back. Bush’s entire term was a boondoggle for his cronies and the party will be starting in earnest again.

Hell they stopped pretending to legislate for the American people years ago and yet they keep getting re-elected. And now with a GOPbagger congress, the chance that a constitutional amendment will be forthcoming to stop the SCOTUS ruling making corporate corruption of our political system legal, only corporate lackies will have the money to run a campaign.

Here we go again—‘Small-government conservatives.’  The actual conservatives are the Democrats.  The people now referred to as conservatives are Rightists. Rightists do not care for or believe in small government.  They believe in a large, intrusive, forceful, imperial government.