bardgal, August 9 at 12:59 pm

“Unless the given-up/I’m not voting/lazy PL-EmoProgs who believe everything
Koch-Funded Jane Hamster and her ilk repeat 24/7 instead of actually looking
at the facts, stop demoralizing and poisoning everyone they touch and really
look at what they could do to HELP instead of being so destructive to their own
cause, then NO. It’s OVER. We’ll get POTUS PERRY, and a Theocracy.

You have all helped surrender to the GOP/KOCH/Tsps with your constant pity
party, and never once understood or noticed just how much GOOD Obama has
accomplished in the face of 24/7 record obstruction.”

***************************************************************

My only disagreement with bardgal’s comment is that in spite of all the counter productive self defeating negativity spewed here, Perry will never be able to establish a Theocracy or be elected President of the United States, but our politics moves ever rightward, the accumulation of wealth moves ever upward, and right-wing Corporatists become ever more politically powerful.

“This is what democracy looks like,” after a Citizens United, right-wing Supreme Court Decision. If we do not unite against the power and influence of corporate interests and work to expose the cruel folly of empire then we will never be able to correct the corruption that envelopes us, the most negative of assertions here will be beyond correction, and the most negative of assertions here will be the inescapable reality.

Americans aren’t leaders they are totally ignorant bullies. Led by evil regimes. Obama,yogi bear or bush,“the same as it ever was,the same as it ever was”

I. B. Tinken—Capitalist industrial development had completely overcome the problem of subsistence-level production by the early 20th century.  In order for capitalists to maintain control of society by playing a crucial role in the economy (as they had throughout the 19th century) they had to learn how to create scarcity.  This was accomplished in the more advanced communities through war, imperialism, waste, natalism and consumerism.  Although human powers of production continue to increase, these strategies may well outrun them, which will be good for leading elites, since then there will always be a ‘crisis’ for them to manage.  As an example, consider the completely artificial crises in the American economy, especially the financial sector, over the last thirty years or so, which have driven people to working harder and longer than their parents did—that has, have subjected more and more of their lives to corporate employment and consumption.

We could have created a material paradise for ourselves; instead, we choose to follow our great leaders into one pit after another.  ‘Age after age, their tragic empires rise.’  Our age too.

AN ADAPTABLE ANIMAL

IBT: If we continue to mechanize to the point where we have robots making everything, and doing nearly everything humanly possible—will there be jobs for ordinary, non “symbolic analyst”, humans?

In the long history of mankind, that has never been a real, long-term problem. Humans are very intelligent and adaptable animals.

Unfortunately, that animal is also a selfish one, so it can develop socioeconomic systems that are not the least bit fair to its inhabitants. Which is what we have done in the US. As I said, look at the Gini Coefficient to understand those countries that do a better job of Income Fairness that translates directly into well-being and human decency.

Uncle Sam has a lot to learn, but the country remains one that is not necessarily plagued by the problem cited above for any extended period of time.

TRANSITION

This period is transitory, we are exiting one age and entering another - so disconnects do happen. Unfortunately, some must suffer far more than others in the transition - because we are too selfish to recognize that there is a better way to organize ourselves.

Let’s face it - our principal cultural values are competition and individual success. Neither of which turns a economy into an harmonious society. We have constructed a Darwinian Society in which the fittest survive best - if by “best” we mean the accumulation of wealth.

And this is nothing new, we’ve always been that way throughout history.

It is up to us to change the definition of “best” - but it will be difficult. We are so ingrained to adulating our “winners” we do not see the harm it does to those who cannot nor ever will be amongst that lot.

In fact, we treat them like road-kill on the Highway of Life. That’s the way the cookie crumbles. Right?

No nation that depends upon wars and ruthless exploitation of resources—human or natural—for financial solvency can possibly lead any other nation anywhere except down. The fact that all the “entitlement” from the proceeds of wars and exploitation float upward to the bank accounts of 2% of the population makes that nation’s descent all the more rapid.

GOOD QUESTION

HC: I ask a fundamental question, just what sort of leadership, economic or otherwise, does this country present to the world?

My take on the Good Points:
* Economic leadership by developing technologies that other countries eventually assimilate and employ. We also have a Retail sector that is more advanced than any other and most MBA-training, like in the US, is a key credential to getting a good job. The heart of all economies is consumer expenditure and Americans have always shown the way - the Internet is just the most recent example.
* The dollar is a Reserve Currency that allows America to export its Debt. Regardless of the present crisis the dollar is a damn fine currency in which to maintain Sovereign Funds. America has never defaulted on its Debt.
* By policing the world we save countries a lot of money since they need only participate as a part-time job. Would anybody want China to police the world? Somebody has to do it because what goes around comes around, sooner or later. (But we do ask for compensation in some form - like holding our Debt).
* Politically, we are leaders in the development of the Democratic process. There is still no country on earth (that I know of) where the three branches of power are separate and equal. Some countries are getting there, but statist habits are hard to break.

My take on the Bad Points:
* Political leadership in the world is just so-so. In the UN forum, America is just another member of the Security Council and does not throw all that much weight any longer. Iraq was an illegal war (the UN charter stipulates that one country will not invade another without the consent of UN) and UN members will not forget that transgression for a long time to come. After all, the UN was founded to prevent inter-nation wars - and Uncle Sam thought he was above that rule. (Or at least Dubya thought so.)
* Foreign countries pay lip-service to “American leadership” but really could not give a damn. Each have their own preserves of influence that are descendant from ancient Colonial Rule.
* No one in a developed country cares to adopt America’s bent on ripping off the low and middle classes to enrich the upper class - as Uncle Sam’s taxation scheme is designed to accomplish with excellence. This happens in Banana Republics like Mexico. (Just look at the Gini Coefficient.)

KEY POINT

So in terms of Social Justice - that is, sharing the economic pie such that all get a fair-share thought not necessarily an equal-share - no one cares to mimic the US. It’s income distribution is too warped.

Dionne writes: 
“Washington, acting in concert with other nations, should be focused on creating jobs and restoring growth. It needs to deal with a housing mess and personal debts that have destroyed the balance sheets of millions of households. It needs to increase consumer purchasing power. And it should be expanding public investments in the nation’s future, not cutting them.”

I have to ask some inconvenient questions. Does the earth have enough energy, resources, and carbon capacity to put everyone back to work 40 hours making disposable consumer goods or new bridges and highway systems? Furthermore, If we continue to mechanize to the point where we have robots making everything, and doing nearly everything humanly possible—will there be jobs for ordinary, non “symbolic analyst”, humans?  And if there are no more jobs for ordinary people, what will the millions of displaced workers do with their time, and who will pay for their upkeep?

Jeremy Rifkin posed such questions over a decade back in his book “The End of Work”.  We are now approaching a time when productivity increases without additional human input or employment.  At the end of the 19th century, half our country was engaged in food production before mechanization reduced that number to less than 1%. But average people found other work in producing consumer goods, and money for leisure activities dependent upon consumer goods.  Ordinary factory workers could buy a Chevrolet and “see the USA” on their 4 week vacation.  Can we still do that with gas and $4 per gallon, the Chevy Volt costing $40K, and the average worker getting minimum wage with no vacation?

I would suggest that the globe with its 6 billion inhabitants cannot sustain a consumer economy like the US and Europe have enjoyed in recent decades.  Nor can we simply leave the unemployed or unemployable to fend for themselves while the “symbolic analysts” live the life conspicuous extravagance.  If we do, much more than London will soon be burning. We need a new economic paradigm that is sustainable without endless growth and needless consumption. We may even have to plan the economy of the future. Yet the “free marketeers” run the world as if it has no limits.

Limits are always imposed.  Will we peacefully and democratically impose them upon ourselves?  Or will we wait until nature and global chaos do it for us

It is ever more difficult for journalist to divert attention from the coup in progress. Like all enablers of abuse they pretend that everything is O.K. and paint those speaking the truth as insane and dangerous. Our Nation has been taken hostage and Mr. Dionne,Jr. wants us to believe Obama is “—playing the long game—”. The “wig” said it all w/the first post on this thread. I enjoy all you’re comments—I feel a little less alone—but the disconnect between actual American reality and the articles presented here by our so called progressive journalists represents a void truth cannot survive.

Robespierre115 - Your ‘second’ reminds me of the
statement made a few years ago by C. Rice, “American
values are universal.”  Can we interpret that (idiotic)
remark as meaning that the world is quite happy having
our boot on their neck?

Also, I cringe every time I hear America called the
‘greatest’ nation on earth.  Really?  37th in the
quality of our health care: 52nd in the quality of our
education: highest in the developed world in infant
mortality rate:  one in four children living in poverty

Did America ever lead? And if it did, who said so?

I don’t mind your renaming deGrene, it just might describe the
situation dramatically better.  Except the world knows the territory
between Mexico and Canada as America (or the USA if you prefer). 
Yup it looks like the economic system of the USA does need to
change as well as the corporate takeover.  How we gonna get it
back?  Republicans might lie down and kick and scream but they
be peeing all over us from drinking too much tea.  Other countries
need to discover democracy all by themselves.  It is looking like
the Arab world has found it after centuries of tyranny.  Anything is
possible except modern humans are too impatient having been
conditioned to be demand babies by not only the corporate world
to buy buy buy but by the arrogant media who precipitates all kinds
of havoc and anxiety in their reportage.  They need to be taken care too
f’sure f’sure.

It is necessary to preserve the myth of American
supremacy and insistence upon world leadership in order to prevent Republicans from throwing all our toys out of the play-pen, then lying down flat on their backs, kicking and screaming.

Regardless of which failed “party” is in control at the moment, let us hope that the US does not continue to lead the world as the largest supporters of state sponsored violence and financial terrorism. I think the world has suffered enough of our brand of “freedom and democracy.”

What?  God is not on the side of the Republicans?  Oh my god!
Is that the way God is going to help America?  ‘Cause it sure looks
like Rick Perry is dragging God along with him and he is climbing in
the campaign polls.  He passed up Michelle Bachmann.  It’s gotta be
God’s doing, because they have nothing else going for them except
teabags.  Well maybe those two will become POTUS and POTUS’s
VP national evangelical clergyman/woman?  Then America will really
lead the world in idiocy if nothing else.

Can America still lead?  God, let us hope not.

it is much, too much, simpler than how our ‘teachers’ [clergy, old- and neo-nobility]
depict reality or all of it.

the root of all evil on interpersonal and other levels is personal supremacism; which
[or their chosen and well-paid ‘teachers’] have by now made each of us semantically
unsane.
and once rendered unsane, incapable to do any good deed even for humans let
alone for monkeys and other biota.

true, we BECAME unsane, which is bad enough; however, led/commanded by even
more unsane [the insanely sanest ones] people.

so, there is a ray of hope: having become unsane to an astounding degree, we can
become once again sane to a necessary degree to save us and biota for an eternity
or until universe has enough of it all and decides to change things.

the key to it all is not to think or say that we ARE evil/unsane; instead, think and say
that we BECAME this way, courtesy of clero-nobility.
but even the sanely insanest people have BECOME that way. the reason i use the
term “sanely insanest” is because calling such people “psychopaths” wld amount to
an insult to individuals whom psychiatrists [bunch of shamans, anyway] call
“psychopths”.
tnx

Isn’t the idea of empire a consummate elitism?  The idea of
elitism more or less emerged in the vocabulary with Plato’s
imagined Republic, when government in practice was confined
to elites.  David Hume theorized ought implies can, meaning there
is no point in saying that government ought to be controlled by the
people if in practice it cannot, therefore, the common people
might as well accept what they are bound to have.  Plato, Hume,
Pareto and Schumpeter all developed normative justifications of
rule by elites in a democracy.  Their view is that puts strength into the
people, is countered by community power, power to the people, Volya
Naroda!  However, in the case of community power, corporations seem
to take over.  Business elites. So capitalistic power must be neutralized
by socialistic programs.  One case, New Haven, Connecticut dispersed
the power within their community.  See Robert Dahl’s “Who Governs?” 
Seems like the powerful interest groups can keep community wishes
kept unfulfilled by mobilizing bias.  Guess we know that action
exceedingly well! 

There were ten big ones:
The Roman Empire – lasted over 2200 years and was the model for
the Vatican sense of power and ostentation.
The Mongol Empire – Genghis Khan Temujin),
The Russian Empire – 18th century Tzarist Russia until the Russian
Revolution
The Holy Roman Empire – Middle Ages superpower formally
dissolved in early 19th century
The British Empire (The Brits still think of themselves as an empire)
The Han Dynasty (Chinese Empire)
The Byzantine Empire (Eastern Roman Empire) late 12th century
Persian Empire (Achaemenid Empire)
The Umayyad Caliphate established after the death of Mohammed,
that gets its name from Umayya ibn Abd Shams and was the largest
Arab-Muslim state in history.
Ottoman Empire 16th-17th century under the rule of Suleiman
(the Magnificent!)

And now we have the American Empire?  Somewhat different in structure,
with a revolving head of state from different political parties.  More like
the Roman Empire than maybe the others?  Maybe someone else has
more knowledge about empires?  Maybe the idea of empire is viciously
elitist?  Maybe the idea of empire needs to be put to rest?  Permanently? 
Any ideas how?

u didn’t know, did u, why hebrews and serbs have made such a small planet,
instead of one thousand and one times bigger or even two or three planets:
one for serbs, the second one for hebrews, and the third for all other peoples?

well, if hebrews and serbs had made much bigger planet, they wld have to
believe in god then. and that cannot do since serbianism [or heavenly serb
nation] and heavenly jewishness wld not, in that case, be second to none!
btw, i am not antishemitic—i only abhor/reject/cry about mosheism,
mohameddanism, and jesusism [yehudism], personal supremacism. tnx

The United States is not a country propelled by political “leadership.” It has become a country led completely and utterly by the “profit motive.” As a result one should not expect moral, cultural, artistic or for that matter even basic “housekeeping” decisions to be made for it’s citizens. This is why we have become a nation of fat, lazy, wanna-be “businessmen/women” whose only concern is “wealth creation” and bullying the world into eating our shit fast food and watching the newest episode of “Captain America.”

Can we still lead? Lead what?

Empires fall and the American Empire is falling.  The sad thing is, it was all preventable.  But a series of selfish, short-term bad decisions, like the one we just saw, has brought it on us.

I rise to second the astute remarks of Robespierre, who, in my opinion, has it exactly right.

Can Amerika still lead? Lead to where? Perpetual war? Abject poverty? The extinction of human-unkind?

A capitalist/fascist plutocracy with a foreign policy that’s delusional, violent and criminally insane can only lead the world to hell.

What’s to lead? The people are being obliterated and the environment
is being raped.  Who cares if there is anything left for the Republicans
who wear the boots? 

The most important thing to happen today will be the election in
Wisconsin.  If the Republicans lose, then there will something left to
lead. if not, well there are always busses to finish the job.

First Dionne is stupid enough to assume that Obama has surrendered to anyone, Obama IS a conservative when it comes to economics, he always has been, this country is an OLIGARCHIC STATE.

Second, Dionne can’t escape the results of an imperialist upbringing. Why does the US need to “lead the world”? Most of the world would be quite happy to have our boot off their neck.