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Blowback: Why They Try to Bomb Us

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Posted on May 14, 2010
AP / Emilio Morenatti

By David Sirota

Imagine, if you can, an alternate universe.

Imagine that in this alternate universe, a foreign military power begins flying remote-controlled warplanes over your town, using onboard missiles to kill hundreds of your innocent neighbors.

Now imagine that when you read the newspaper about this ongoing bloodbath, you learn that the foreign nation’s top general is nonchalantly telling reporters that his troops are also killing “an amazing number” of your cultural brethren in an adjacent country. Imagine further learning that this foreign power is expanding the drone attacks on your community despite the attacks’ well-known record of killing innocents. And finally, imagine that when you turn on your television, you see the perpetrator nation’s tuxedo-clad leader cracking stand-up comedy jokes about drone strikes—jokes that prompt guffaws from an audience of that nation’s elite.

Ask yourself: How would you and your fellow citizens respond? Would you call homegrown militias mounting a defense “patriots” or would you call them “terrorists”? Would you agree with your leaders when they angrily tell reporters that violent defiance should be expected?

Fortunately, most Americans don’t have to worry about these queries in their own lives. But how we answer them in a hypothetical thought experiment provides us insight into how Pakistanis are likely to be feeling right now. Why? Because thanks to our continued drone assaults on their country, Pakistanis now confront these issues every day. And if they answer these questions as many of us undoubtedly would in a similar situation—well, that should trouble every American in this age of asymmetrical warfare.

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Though we don’t like to call it mass murder, the U.S. government’s undeclared drone war in Pakistan is devolving into just that. As noted by a former counterinsurgency adviser to Gen. David Petraeus and a former Army officer in Afghanistan, the operation has become a haphazard massacre.

“Press reports suggest that over the last three years drone strikes have killed about 14 terrorist leaders,” David Kilcullen and Andrew Exum wrote in 2009. “But, according to Pakistani sources, they have also killed some 700 civilians. This is 50 civilians for every militant killed.”

Making matters worse, Gen. Stanley McChrystal has, indeed, told journalists that in Afghanistan, U.S. troops have “shot an amazing number of people” and “none has proven to have been a real threat.” Meanwhile, President Barack Obama used his internationally televised speech at the White House Correspondents Dinner to jest about drone warfare—and the assembled Washington glitterati did, in fact, reward him with approving laughs.

By eerie coincidence, that latter display of monstrous insouciance occurred on the same night as the failed effort to raze Times Square. Though America reacted to that despicable terrorism attempt with its routine spasms of cartoonish shock (why do they hate us?!), the assailant’s motive was anything but baffling. As law enforcement officials soon reported, the accused bomber was probably trained and inspired by Pakistani groups seeking revenge for U.S. drone strikes.

“This is a blowback,” said Pakistan’s foreign minister, Shah Mehmood Qureshi. “This is a reaction. And you could expect that ... let’s not be naive.”

Obviously, regardless of rationale, a “reaction” that involves trying to incinerate civilians in Manhattan is abhorrent and unacceptable. But so is Obama’s move to intensify drone assaults that we know are regularly incinerating innocent civilians in Pakistan. And while Qureshi’s statement about “expecting” blowback seems radical, he’s merely echoing the CIA’s reminder that “possibilities of blowback” arise when we conduct martial operations abroad.

We might remember that somehow-forgotten warning come the next terrorist assault. No matter how surprised we may feel after that inevitable (and inevitably deplorable) attack, the fact remains that until we halt our own indiscriminately violent actions, we ought to expect equally indiscriminate and equally violent reactions.

David Sirota is the author of the best-selling books “Hostile Takeover” and “The Uprising.” He hosts the morning show on AM760 in Colorado and blogs at OpenLeft.com. E-mail him at ds@davidsirota.com or follow him on Twitter @davidsirota.

© 2010 Creators.com


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amunaor's avatar

By amunaor, May 20, 2010 at 1:29 pm Link to this comment

Gladio – Death Plan For Democracy
by Peter Chamberlin

...Terrorism, as political action, became the driving force in American foreign policy, and any nation that sought our aid, or to become allied with us, had to accept this reality and the necessity to keep blaming others for our own commissioned attacks.  The historical record of “terrorist” bombings throughout the world is, for the most part, a record of our actions, done under the cover of layers of “plausible deniability,” created by the compartmentalization of terrorist strike forces into different secret levels…

...In Afghanistan, the CIA armed, trained and supported Islamic “Gladios” who carried-out Brzezenski’s plans for staging terrorist attacks upon popular local Afghan tribal leaders, as a means to instigate the widespread tribal warfare which eventually lured the Soviets to intervene in December 1979.  (July 3, 1979, President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul.)  Reagan whole-heartedly supported the new terror politics as a weapon for attacking the Soviet empire, even expanding the Islamic militant form of Gladio to all member states of the Soviet Union and their allies, when he signed National Security Decision Directive 166 in March 1985.  In Central America, his Gladio-like duplication trained paramilitary armies and death squads.  This policy became known as the “El Salvador option,” when George W. Bush embraced it in Iraq, making it the centerpiece of his strategy for the “war on terrorism.”

STORY LINK:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8001

Peace, Best Wishes and Hope
***

“Just look at that pile of dead bastards over there”; growing larger by the moment.

WikiLeaks – Collateral Murder
http://collateralmurder.com/

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By jack, May 19, 2010 at 7:25 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The nature of THE GLOBAL WAR OF TERROR has far less in common with WWII
than with the significant wars of counterinsurgency, common to the so-called
COLD WAR era.

In fact their common nature is almost identical in strategy: discredit any and all
self-determinant nationalists by staging atrocities in their names - a strategy
developed in the waning days of the British Empired and codified in Brigadier
Gen. Frank Kiston’s field manuals.

Before the Taliban achieved arch-bogyman status, Bush II envoys gave them
the ultimatum: choose a carpet of gold or you get a carpet of bombs. The
Neocons were marching into the Middle East no matter what - 9/11 was the
New Pearl Harbor for which they called in their Project for a New American
Century manifesto, all of which has given the world THE GLOAL WAR OF
TERROR - GLADIO for the 21st C.

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By prosefights, May 19, 2010 at 5:35 pm Link to this comment

Email sent to Whitman college.

http://home.comcast.net/~bpayne37/whitman59/whitman59after.htm#wardwelljuergens

Here is our opnions of liberal arts education.

However, I say that current liberal arts majors, in general, are not capable of logical thinking since they have been brainwashed by our education system which discourages inquiry, critical thinking, and the ability to synthesise solutions based on facts.
Above is Dr Sobolewski’s assessment. Here is mine.

Liberal arts educated ‘think’ different. Most memorize, speculate, emote, then interpret.

Logic and reason does not work with them.

Ignoring facts is a liberal arts ploy.

Public scrutiny of them trying to ignore facts can get them to deal with facts. Grudgingly.

Where do journalists come from?

They are manufactured in America’s universities in a liberal arts curriculum. Journalism schools teach students that they are “the voice of the people.” Reporters are to stick up for the poor, the downtrodden, and the disadvantaged, in our sometimes-oppressive capitalist system. It is their job - so they are taught - to “comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable.”

It’s a noble and necessary calling, but there is a problem here. Chances are quite good that you will be classified as “comfortable,” regardless of whether you are or not much more on this in chapters 12 and 13, the Rules of Balance and Ambush). The point is that journalists are disconnected from he general population-and for more reasons than their politics or philosophical bent.
...

Manipulating the Media

The next time you watch a newscast, read a newspaper, flip through a magazine, or click through a news website, look for Invention. You’ll be astonished at how much “news” is actually the product of media manipulation. Excluding spot news, most of what we receive from the Beast is at least partially manufactured.

Feeding the Media Beast: An Easy Recipe for Great Publicity
Mark Mathis

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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, May 19, 2010 at 3:05 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie, - “Actually, the nature of war is rather complex and variegated.  If you think it is always the same…..”

-

I have read enough of your opinions to understand that you’re now being disingenuous.

Good luck to you.

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By denk, May 19, 2010 at 9:57 am Link to this comment

thailand unrest is about china
http://tinyurl.com/33bvgdr

and liquor larry is a sheeple
tinyurl.com/mumupz

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, May 19, 2010 at 8:04 am Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man, May 18 at 3:54 pm:

‘... The nature of war remains the same. ...’

Actually, the nature of war is rather complex and variegated.  If you think it is always the same you haven’t read much history or anthropology—which would explain your rather surreal attempt to apply the examples of the Germany and Japan of 1945 to the present Middle East.

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By Anarcissie, May 19, 2010 at 8:01 am Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man, May 18 at 3:54 pm:

‘... The nature of war remains the same. ...’

Actually, the nature of war is complex and variegated.  If you think it is always the same you haven’t read much history or anthropology—which would explain your rather surreal attempt to apply the examples of the Germany and Japan of 1945 to the present Middle East.

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By MattMan, May 19, 2010 at 3:27 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

And for anyone that asks why Iran is nuking up, all you need to do is look at a map and find Iran. Next find the countries the US military has bases in. Next ask what you would demand your government do if your democratically elected (glorious) leader was overthrown by the country whose military was you?
My opinion is that if the Iranians installed puppet regimes in Canada and Mexico and overthrew our government most would demand action be taken, myself included.
You can bet the farm that the true patriots would be demonized as “terrorists.”

But what is an individual to do? All we can do is set small fires in the minds of our fellow citizens and hope those fires grow.
Perhaps the coming collapse of most fiat currencies will speed up this process. However, judging the ignorance of some of these posters, even that won’t change anything. (That also assumes tptb allows currency collapse.

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By kulu, May 19, 2010 at 12:04 am Link to this comment

And ITW your state is probably all the better for its Jewish residents. The world is also better off for people like Naom Chomsky, Amy Goodman, Amira Haas and many, many others.

But the Palestinians would be vastly better off without the Israel occupation and make no mistake Israel occupies these lands for and behalf of Jews.

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By Healy, May 18, 2010 at 5:33 pm Link to this comment

Robert Greenwald and Brave New Films has a great series of ‘net videos on Afghanistan, called “Rethink Afghanistan.”  Many will infuriate you, many more will touch your heart.  I highly recommend that everyone reading this article, and everyone who is opposed to this awful war to go and check it out:  http://www.rethinkafghanistan.com

Robert Healy

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By conscientiousconjector, May 18, 2010 at 2:58 pm Link to this comment

REF: Liquor Store Larry, May 18 at 3:19 pm

There is a difference between pride in one’s nation and foolish pride in homicidal vengeance. I love the place where I was born and my family. I am just
not foolish enough to wave my, made in China, American flag to celebrate the
murder of innocent people. Anger, vengeance, wrath and greed. These are the paths
to the dark side. Have you ever considered meditation or prayer… or whatever?

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By amunaor, May 18, 2010 at 12:59 pm Link to this comment

Liquor Store Larry,

Watch out that Occam’s razor doesn’t nick the jugular while shaving, depriving one of oxygen.  I think you conflate too much, resulting in confusion and distraction.

The focus is: Cheney/Enron – Taliban/Afghanistan – UNOCAL/Pipeline - BlowBack/911

Peace, Best Wishes and Hope

WikiLeaks—Collateral Murder
http://wikileaks.org/

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Liquor Store Larry's avatar

By Liquor Store Larry, May 18, 2010 at 12:12 pm Link to this comment

By amunaor, May 18 at 3:23 pm #

Blow-Back - Cheney/Enron – Taliban – Afghanistan – leading up to 9/11.

The Enron scandal runs so deep into the Bush/Cheney regime that evidence shows Enron may have been a major factor in Bush/Cheney complicity in 9/11 as pretext for the present “global war on terror”?

DID BUSH AND CHENEY ALSO PUT Muslim terrorists up to pushing 69 year old retired businessman in a wheelchair, Leon Klinghoffer off the Achille Lauro, a ship at sea, on his anniversary at that?  Are Bush and Cheney the reason that Muslim terrorists blow up discos in Bali, pizza parlors in Israel, train stations in Barcelona, hotels full of Hindus in India, theaters full of hostages in Moscow, fly planes into buildings in New York, torch embassies over cartoons in Europe, blow up Buddhist antiquities in Afghanistan and shoot kneeling woman through the head in Afghan soccer stadiums, murder Olympic athletes, hijack planes to Idi Amin’s Uganda, push cripples in wheelchairs off ships in the ocean, and when they run out of Jews and Christians and Hindus to murder they murder each other? I RATHER DOUBT IT.

Occam’s razor = the simplest conclusion is usually the correct one.

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By Go Right Young Man, May 18, 2010 at 11:54 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie, - “I find it hard to believe that you can’t differentiate between the situation in Germany and Japan at the end of World War 2, and the present and recent circumstances in the Middle East.  The three areas have entirely different histories, cultures, economies, politics, and relationships to the U.S.”

-

Your comments above strike me as somewhat odd.  I offered nothing concerning cultures, economies, politics and relationships to the U.S..  I believe you missed the point.

The nature of war remains the same.

-

As to the rest of what you opine.  We will simply disagree.

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amunaor's avatar

By amunaor, May 18, 2010 at 11:23 am Link to this comment

Blow-Back - Cheney/Enron – Taliban – Afghanistan – leading up to 9/11.

The Enron scandal runs so deep into the Bush/Cheney regime that evidence shows Enron may have been a major factor in Bush/Cheney complicity in 9/11 as pretext for the present “global war on terror” a war for the control of Central Asian oil, gas reserves and pipelines implicating the Bush/Cheney neocon regime in both the Enron scandal and 9/11, as Enron also had its interests in the Afghanistan/Central Asia energy grab.

From 2001 to 2003, Dick Cheney continued to openly break the law by defying GAO requests to turn over his records of meetings with Enron. The General Accounting Office decided not to challenge a judge’s decision to dismiss the watchdog agency’s lawsuit against Vice President Dick Cheney’s energy task force.

The decision by GAO ended a nearly two-year battle with the White House over documents detailing meetings Cheney held with the National Energy Policy Development Group in 2001. The meetings resulted in the president’s national energy policy and many of the officials there came from Enron Corp., the Houston-based energy company that filed for bankruptcy in December 2001 amid accusations of hidden debt, inflated profits and improper accounting methods.

There are indications that Enron and the White House were working closely with the Taliban—including Osama bin Laden—up to weeks before the Sept. 11 attack. Why was the bin Laden family, swiftly whisked out of the country, immediately following the events of 9/11?

Big Oil, along with neocon drivers continue to rely on the support of the interim Prime Minister of Afghanistan, may think that war and oil profits mix, but there is simply too much evidence that the War in Afghanistan was primarily about building UNOCAL’s pipeline, not about fighting terrorism.

Afghanistan, the Taliban and the Bush Oil Team:
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/MAD201A.html

Whatever the opinions may be regarding the sanitized version for its causes, much weight outside of the anointed pronouncements, suggest that 9/11 may very well have been a rouge GLADIO-CIA styled false-flag operation utilized to ignite the necessary psychodrama that has permeated, and swept the public mind into accepting the all consuming ‘global war on terror’, a bloody cover for imperial madness…money and power:

http://www.annoticoreport.com/2007/12/francesco-cossiga-ex-italian-president.html

“Deception is a state of mind and the mind of the state.” - James Jesus Angelton - Director of CIA Counter Intelligence (1954-74)

“The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media.” - William Colby - Director of the CIA (1973-76)

“Just look at that pipe of dead bastards over there”, laughs the desensitized, disposable, shooter.
WikiLeaks—Collateral Murder
http://wikileaks.org/

Peace, Best Wishes and Hope

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Liquor Store Larry's avatar

By Liquor Store Larry, May 18, 2010 at 11:19 am Link to this comment

The whole “why they hate us” thing is such a crock of s**t. Let’s face it, liberal Americans and those who euphemistically call themselves progressive believe it is “jingoistic” to have any pride whatsoever. With your attitudes why don’t you just cut your losses and blow YOURSELVES up?

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By conscientiousconjector, May 18, 2010 at 10:22 am Link to this comment

I’m so tired of all of this centrists language. Could we tip-toe around any more?
David Sirota writes “Imagine that in this alternate universe, a foreign military
power begins flying remote-controlled warplanes over your town, using onboard
missiles to kill hundreds of your innocent neighbors”. An alternate universe my
ass. These are real people, and too often murder victims, who’s nation deserves
real autonomy. Afghanistan has been a US military playground ever since the cold
war. We trained and supported the Taliban to fight the “commies” and in doing so destabilized any chances of a democratic government. A few years later and they are
suddenly evil harborers of terrorists. So naturally we invade, destabilizing the
political structure again. Only this time we were devoted to good old fashion
nation building, US style. We propped up Hamid Karzai (former UNOCAL executive) and
the natural gas pipelines began to flow (Dick Cheney/KBR got their slice). None of
this, as the article clearly illustrates, has done any favors for the people of
Afghanistan. Sirota was right about one thing. All of the atrocities that have
been, and will continued to be, committed against the US are a result of our own
profit driven actions and not because people hate the idea of civil liberties.
Religion is just a convenient veil under which recruitment of the next generation
of “terrorists” (as if we weren’t the original terrorists) will happen. 

Why are we so self-absorbed and pacified that it takes hypothetical arguments to
try to get us to walk in their shoes? Because that is the nature of free-market
capitalism. We are all just a little bit o.k. with collateral murder as long as we
can continue our “way of life”. As long as we are comfortable we will continue to
do nothing but pontificate. But the only thing more terrible than apathy is to
understand the truth and to still stand by blaming government. Take action against
the war or shut the hell up!

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, May 18, 2010 at 9:11 am Link to this comment

Go Right Young Man, May 18 at 8:37 am:
‘Contemporary conventional wisdom tries to persuade us that there is no such thing as a finite number of the enemy. Instead, killing them supposedly only incites others to step up from the shadows to take their places. Violence begets violence. It is counterproductive, and creates an endless succession of the enemy. Or so we are told.

We may wish that were true. But military history suggests it is not quite accurate. In fact, there was a finite number of SS diehards and kamikaze suicide bombers even in fanatical Nazi Germany and imperial Japan. ...’

I find it hard to believe that you can’t differentiate between the situation in Germany and Japan at the end of World War 2, and the present and recent circumstances in the Middle East.  The three areas have entirely different histories, cultures, economies, politics, and relationships to the U.S.  I would have to write an encyclopedia of world history to explain all the differences.

The idea of attriting the enemy would in effect mean conducting a war of annihilation against the Arab countries, Afghanistan, Iran, and Pakistan.  The U.S. did more or less annihilate the Indians, but I think that sort of thing has gone out of fashion now.

I don’t understand your notion of “conventional wisdom”.  There is the common-sense idea that if you attack people they may fight back, but I don’t see much of that in the utterances of the government and mass media, who seem to assume that the American ruling class is omnipotent as well as omniscient, invulnerable and absolutely benevolent.  Which conventions are we talking about here?

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, May 18, 2010 at 7:50 am Link to this comment

By Go Right Young Man, May 18 at 8:37 am #


“The Israeli war in Gaza is considered by the global community to be a terrible failure — even though the number of rocket attacks against Israeli border towns is way down. That reduction may be due to international pressure, diplomacy, and Israeli goodwill shipments of food and fuel to Gaza

===========

Why won’t Israel allow Gazans to import coriander?


In its response to a freedom-of-information suit last week, the state admitted that there is specific list of goods permissible for import to Strip.

By Amira Hass

The Defense Ministry is refusing - on security grounds, it says - to reveal why Israel prohibits the import into the Gaza Strip of items such as cilantro, sage, jam, chocolate, french fries, dried fruit, fabrics, notebooks empty flowerpots and toys, while allowing cinnamon, plastic buckets and combs.  Palestinian smuggler climbing down into an underground tunnel that leads from Gaza to Egypt.

But in its response to a freedom-of-information suit last week, the state did admit, for the first time, that there is specific list of permissible goods.

The suit, filed in the Tel Aviv administrative court by Gisha: Legal Center for Freedom of Movement, sought to clarify the criteria and procedures the authorities use to determine what goods to allow into Gaza. It was filed after Gazans began claiming that commercial interests inside Israel, and their lobbying power, were determining the permitted items.

In its response, the state “apologized to the court and the plaintiff for inaccuracies presented during oral arguments [in January], due to certain misunderstandings.” The inaccuracy in question was its denial of the existence of written directives.

The response included two documents that the state termed drafts that are already being used in practice - one titled “Procedure for Permitting the Entry of Goods into Gaza” and one titled “Procedure for Tracking and Estimating Inventories in Gaza.” The latter is supposed to warn of existing or likely shortages.

The state also submitted a third document, a “List of Critical Humanitarian Goods for the Population,” whose existence it had previously denied. This list is periodically updated, it said.

A fourth document, called “Foodstuffs Consumption in Gaza - Red Lines,” is a draft for internal use only, the state said, “and has never served as a basis for decision-making.” Haaretz reporters Uri Blau and Yotam Feldman revealed the existence of this document in a June 2009 investigative report. It apparently determines the minimum nutritional needs of Gaza’s population, according to caloric intake and grams of food, parsed by age and gender.

The state seeks to deny Gisha’s suit on the grounds that revealing the first three documents would “harm national security and possibly even diplomatic relations.” And since the fourth is not a basis for policy, there is no need to reveal it, the state argued.

Gisha filed its response with the court yesterday, in which it reiterated its demand for any documents that determine the goods transfer policy. “It is difficult to imagine how publishing a list of products, such as medications, foodstuffs and hygiene products, or revealing the procedures that determine this list, could harm state security,” wrote attorney Tamar Feldman.”
~~~~~~~~~~~

From: http://www.haaretz.com

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By Go Right Young Man, May 18, 2010 at 4:37 am Link to this comment

Contemporary conventional wisdom tries to persuade us that there is no such thing as a finite number of the enemy. Instead, killing them supposedly only incites others to step up from the shadows to take their places. Violence begets violence. It is counterproductive, and creates an endless succession of the enemy. Or so we are told.

We may wish that were true. But military history suggests it is not quite accurate. In fact, there was a finite number of SS diehards and kamikaze suicide bombers even in fanatical Nazi Germany and imperial Japan. When they were attrited, not only were their acts of terror curtailed, but it turned out that far fewer than expected wanted to follow the dead to martyrdom.

The Israeli war in Gaza is considered by the global community to be a terrible failure — even though the number of rocket attacks against Israeli border towns is way down. That reduction may be due to international pressure, diplomacy, and Israeli goodwill shipments of food and fuel to Gaza — or it may be due to the hundreds of Hamas killers and rocketeers who died, and the thousands who do not wish to follow them, despite their frequently loud rhetoric about a desire for martyrdom.

Insurgencies, of course, are complex operations, but in general even they are not immune from eternal rules of war. Winning hearts and minds is essential; providing security for the populace is crucial; improving the economy is critical to securing the peace. But all that said, we cannot avoid the pesky truth that in war — any sort of war — killing enemy soldiers stops the violence.

Perhaps the most politically incorrect and Neanderthal of all thoughts would be that the American military’s long efforts in both Afghanistan and Iraq to kill or capture radical Islamists has contributed to the general safety inside the United States. Modern dogma insists that our presence in those two Muslim countries incited otherwise non-bellicose young Muslims to suddenly prefer violence and leave Saudi Arabia, Yemen, or Egypt to flock to kill the infidel invader.

A more tragic view would counter that there was always a large (though largely finite) number of radical jihadists who, even before 9/11, wished to kill Americans. They went to those two theaters, fought, died, and were therefore not able to conduct as many terrorist operations as they otherwise would have, and also provided a clear example to would-be followers not to emulate their various short careers. That may explain why in global polls the popularity both of bin Laden and of the tactic of suicide bombing plummeted in the Middle Eastern street — at precisely the time America was being battered in the elite international press for the Iraq War.

The bottom line: Victory is most easily obtained by ending the enemy’s ability to resist — and by offering him an alternative future that might appear better than the past. We may not like to think all of that entails killing those who wish to kill us, but it does, always has, and tragically always will — until the nature of man himself changes.

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By brewerstroupe, May 17, 2010 at 11:04 pm Link to this comment

Marshall.

“I can see this discussion is degenerating as you’re just revising things according to what I suspect are your conspiracy theory leanings.”

This is amusing coming from a guy who believes in a conspiracy to Islamicise the Globe run by a man who lives in a cave.

“so I gracefully bow out of the discussion.”

I can understand that.

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By Marshall, May 17, 2010 at 10:04 pm Link to this comment

By brewerstroupe, May 17 at 9:43 pm #

” Taliban had nothing to do with 911”

I can see this discussion is degenerating as you’re just revising things
according to what I suspect are your conspiracy theory leanings.  Your beliefs
about reality differ from mine so I think there’s little more to say.  Honestly,
characterizing his threats as just “predictions” is another reality-impaired view
(and I imagine is your lead-in to claiming he had nothing to do with 9/11
either) so I gracefully bow out of the discussion. 

I’ll throw a last link into the ether regarding AQ’s past actions and future
intentions but I’m aware that legitimate fact-based analysis is not what you’re
after so I might as well be throwing this off a cliff…

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/publication/19852/al_qaeda_weapons_of_
mass_destruction_threat.html

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By turbamagna, May 17, 2010 at 9:56 pm Link to this comment

“Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.”

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By brewerstroupe, May 17, 2010 at 5:43 pm Link to this comment

Marshall, May 17 at 8:51 pm

“Pope isn’t running planes into skyscrapers or attempting to acquire wmd.”

My reference to other religions was simply to distinguish religious rhetoric from military or War rhetoric. You will find World domination themes in all religions. None of them envisage conquest by military means, they refer to dominance through conversion. Onward Christian Soldiers and all that. You seem to be confusing the two by conflating OBL’s predictions of Islam becoming the World’s foremost religion with a supposed intention on his behalf to carry out that conversion by force.

“AQ and Taliban are joined at the hip”

There is scant evidence of this. In fact the opposite appears to be the case:

LONDON, England (CNN)October 6, 2008—Taliban leaders are holding Saudi-brokered talks with the Afghan government to end the country’s bloody conflict—and are severing their ties with al Qaeda, sources close to the historic discussions have told CNN.

The Taliban made this offer:

WASHINGTON (CNN)October 7, 2001—The White House on Sunday rejected an offer from Afghanistan’s ruling Taliban to try suspected terrorist leader Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan under Islamic law.

....after first offering to turn him over to the U.S if the U.S. would first present proof that he was guilty of 911.

In any event, the Islamic threat is grossly overstated by both you and Huemeister and it remains for you to present evidence that it is serious enough to justify the wholesale slaughter of hundreds of thousands (if not millions)of Muslims. The sayings of Osama Bin Laden just don’t cut it and any analytical brain must come to the realization that bombing civilians will create many more militants than anything he ever said.
It is now well established that OBL had nothing to do with Saddam or Iraq and that the Taliban had nothing to do with 911 yet America is bombing both countries. Time you found a new justification.

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By Marshall, May 17, 2010 at 4:51 pm Link to this comment

By brewerstroupe, May 17 at 6:27 pm #

Pope isn’t running planes into skyscrapers or attempting to acquire wmd. 
Lumping OBL together with Jehovah’s Witnesses (do I hear the Girl Scouts too? 
How about Amish?) is a rather far fetched stretch to minimize and legitimize
AQ’s methods and practices.  The comparison is frankly comical but if you take
it seriously than so be it.

AQ and Taliban are joined at the hip, and Taliban already established sharia
govt. in Afghanistan leading to 9/11.  Koresh didn’t have armed movements in
multiple countries and ad hoc followers springing up globally and attacking
allies.  Again - no comparison.

I never said “World-wide conspiracy on the part of Muslims” - I said “Islamists”. 
These are extremist, present in dozens of countries and their conspiracy is
against Muslims and Christians alike (and everyone else).

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By A Khokar, May 17, 2010 at 3:51 pm Link to this comment

“America has no permanent friends; just American interests”.

Taliban can well be defined as the group which came in power after the end of Afghan war in Afghanistan. This group was weary of a trivial US byplay that their main benefactor, on the behest of whom they fought Afghan war and had very successfully defeated Soviet Union, it un-expectantly dumped them and left.

This abrupt US back sliding became a bone of contention especially for the foreign group inside Taliban. Osama Bin Laden who was one of the chieftain. he formed a new militant group and named it Al Qaeda. Supposedly this is same group which is said to have carried out the attack on twin tower in New York.

Keep this incident in focus and see that how; this scenario was blown up by Neocons into a greater concept of ‘war against terrorism’ that ever since the whole world and especially this region called as the Greater Middle East is in the grip of utter destruction and turmoil. US moved in, in Afghanistan, forcefully deposed Taliban government and ever since Taliban are at the run. Bulk of Taliban migrated to neighbouring countries; like Pakistan and Iran. Al Qaeda also shifted to the old Mujahedeen sanctuaries in FATA area of Pakistan.

Although in the attack on twin tower in New York just three or four buildings were affected and some 2983 people in total were killed but here in this region, US lead NATO forces while in chase of Osama Bin Laden have put thousands and thousands of people to death and their dwellings and civic infrastructure whatever little they have is now reduced to rubbles.

Eight years have passed but in this exercise US lead NATO forces could not find Bin Laden or his top lieutenant neither any one from the high command of Mullah Omer of Taliban could be caught—- but US CIA had done something extra ordinary in Pakistan that they raised another fake Taliban group called TTP ( Tehrik e Taliban in Pakistan) for her covert operations inside Pakistan. Drone attacks is the latest US Tactic to accelerate the provocation and instigate the peoples to rebel rouse against their present government as well as keep the terrorism alive.

The sole aim of highly paid and sophisticatedly armed TTP is to carry out subversion suicidal attacks to undermine the security forces of Pakistan. Spread anarchy in the country and to destabilize the country. Deplete it to the extent that Pakistan along with its military forces is compelled to submit to the wills and wishes of USA. Blood of Hundreds is on their hands.

This is how; the allies and friends of USA have to pay back—- when they swing along with USA. May it be Chile, Brazil, Mexico, Honduras; lately UK and now Pakistan—-they all could reap only the utter devastation. No doubt; Henry Kissinger famous saying stands out; “America has no permanent friends; just American interests”.

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By brewerstroupe, May 17, 2010 at 2:27 pm Link to this comment

By Marshall, May 17 at 1:57 pm #

“Not really sure what your point is.”

My point is simply this. Minor loony sects exist in all religions. Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda are to Islam what Rev Jim Jones of the “People’s Temple” or David Koresh of the Branch Davidians are to Christianity. Citing such examples as evidence of a World-wide conspiracy on the part of Muslims to establish a “Global Caliphate” is simply hysterical nonsense and discloses an unrealistic World view.
For your information, the Pope would like Catholicism to rule the religious world, the Archbishop of Canterbury would no doubt like Anglicanism to be the foremost religion and the Jehovah’s Witnesses constantly bang on about the imminent takeover of the World by their version of Jesus Christ. Nobody takes this sort of thing seriously despite the numbers of adherents to those organizations.

You cite the reported sayings of Bin Laden, the so-called leader of a shadowy organization about which Wikipedia (referencing numerous sources) says:

Field operatives

The number of individuals in the organization who have undergone proper military training, and are capable of commanding insurgent forces, is largely unknown. In 2006, it was estimated that al-Qaeda had several thousand commanders embedded in forty different countries.[92] As of 2009, it is believed no more than two hundred to three hundred members are still active commanders.[93]

According to the award winning BBC documentary The Power of Nightmares, al-Qaeda is so weakly linked together that it is hard to say it exists apart from Osama bin Laden and a small clique of close associates.

The lack of any significant numbers of convicted al-Qaeda members despite a large number of arrests on terrorism charges is cited by the documentary as a reason to doubt whether a widespread entity that meets the description of al-Qaeda exists at all. Therefore the extent and nature of al-Qaeda remains a topic of dispute.

......as evidence of a World-wide conspiracy to impose Sharia Law. I suggest you find a few Islamic spokesmen who at least have an organization capable of attempting such a plan to support your claim that such a conspiracy exists.

The Sirota article above and the ongoing wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, not to mention the Palestinian situation provide much more persuasive evidence that the boot is actually on the other foot. Hundreds of thousands of Western soldiers are in Islamic lands killing Islamic people. One can only speculate as to the extent of your hysteria were you one of them, given that it has been so excited by a semi-mythical figure with a handful of followers.

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By diamond, May 17, 2010 at 12:35 pm Link to this comment

Now you’re just treading water ITW. Your belief in the official story of 9/11 is the same kind of belief that devout Catholics have on transubstantiation and the trinity. An article of faith, in other words, that cannot be challenged by reason, logic or science. This is the thinking of a cult: you take a position that is not based on fact and then punish or ostracize anyone who wants to analyze or question it. Why do you think they burnt all those heretics at the stake? In terms of this argument you’re the inquisitor and I’m the ‘heretic’ but I’m proud to be a heretic if the alternative is believing a story so stupid and scientifically impossible that it wouldn’t fool a child of twelve. A story that has made a lot of people very, very rich and led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of men, women and children who had nothing to do with 9/11.

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By Kipper, May 17, 2010 at 10:36 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

People keep asking why would a country do this or why would they do that….The answer is simple…. Greed.
There are people in the world that aren’t happy only having billions of dollars in net worth and want more than anybody else.
They are sicky psychopaths that will kill to get what they want.

Who are these diabolical mass murderers?
They are the Global Elite…..the founding fathers of the New World Order.
Ya I know you believe Faux’s spin that the NWO is bull, but that is only because you haven’t read any quotes by the Rockefellers who proudly boast about their intentions and their accomplishments.
The NWO is not “coming soon” ... it is here. What you see is what you get. This is what they have in mind. A one world government that controls all the money and gets “RESPECT” by being the big bullies that go around the world killing whomever they want whenever they want.
Get used to it… because as people argue about what Faux news and all the other Rockefeller controlled news sources are calling news, the perpetrators of the NWO are busy with their agenda.

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By jack, May 17, 2010 at 10:33 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: AQ’s Mission
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osamatape.html

OBL + AQ are a rolling psy-op (conflated with the “Taliban threat”), fueled by numerous black-ops, many executed by Blackwater/XE, Mossad and RAW
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_5477.shtml

Analysis:
The Global War Of Terror is a ginned up GLADIO for the 21st. C. as the myth of Islamofascism fills the bogyman role vacated by Monolithic Communism, and the Global Finance Oligarchy fulfills its Nietzchen craving for endless war and global hegemony.

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By Marshall, May 17, 2010 at 9:57 am Link to this comment

By brewerstroupe, May 17 at 7:39 am #

Not really sure what your point is.  AQ’s intentions are well known and OBL’s
alive/dead status is a red herring - he’s the ideological leader.  He and his reps in
various countries (some now dead but others rise to replace) spout the same
basic clap-trap.  Any moderate “credible islamic commentators” would be the
first to be killed I imagine.

But it’s not a matter of whether AQ has the means to impose caliphate on its
moderate brethren - it obviously does not.  My original point was that this is one
of its primary motivations, not the article’s appeasing contention that we’re the
ones to blame.

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By Nozferatu, May 17, 2010 at 9:52 am Link to this comment

Diamond,

As I said before, you’re wasting your time arguing with that tool ITW…he’s a racist bigot through and through…the only things he cares about are Jews and Israel.  The rest be damned.

Seriously, someone suggested to not argue with this POS, I agree.

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By denk, May 17, 2010 at 9:42 am Link to this comment

Pick any ongoing conflict in the world and see if you do not see the secret hands of the United States/Israel busily at work fanning the flames
http://tinyurl.com/4mmkch

actually it’s more like cia/mossad/mi5/raw

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By Anarcissie, May 17, 2010 at 8:07 am Link to this comment

Marshall—I am not the moral relativist; you are.  You have rigged up a system where it is all right for the U.S. to kill innocent people but not all right for its opponents, based on your attachments and preferences.  I am opposed to anyone doing harm to the innocent, anywhere, any time.  I am the absolutist; you are the relativist.

As to professed intentions, both the U.S. and al-Qaeda have professed an explicit intention to dominate the world in favor of what their leaders think is good and virtuous.  The differences are of scale.  Al-Qaeda has killed thousands of people, maybe, but the U.S. has killed millions.  Al-Qaeda cannot actually dominate vacant lots in Somalia, whereas the U.S. has hundreds of military bases all over the world and has attacked more than thirty different countries since the end of World War 2.  Suppose Osama bin Laden was fully responsible for 9/11 (an unproved but often uttered charge); George W. Bush caused the deaths of more Americans than he, in Iraq alone, in a baseless and futile war.

I exhort you to abandon your relativism and condemn all murders alike, and the corrupt and violent leadership of those who order them and carry them out.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 17, 2010 at 3:41 am Link to this comment

kulu, May 17 at 2:01 am #

ITW

Perhaps you could carve out a bit of YOUR state to accommodate those 7 million Jews in Israel who have nowhere else to go. This would certainly help the Palestinians out a bit.
************************************************

Gee, don’t all you bigots like Toot-Toot and Nozferatu already call my home state “New Jewsy”?  and the city near me “Jew York”?  After all, 50% of our Senators are Jewish, and 25% of our Senators are Hispanics (that’ll drive T-T up a wall—probably claim Sen. Menendez is a should be deported or something).

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By brewerstroupe, May 17, 2010 at 3:39 am Link to this comment

Marshall, May 17 at 4:43 am #

A five and a seven year old report of what a guy living in a cave (if he wasn’t already dead) said? A guy who carries about as much sway in the Islamic World as Rev Jim Bakker carries in the Roman Catholic World?

This is what has persuaded you that there is a serious movement in Islam to take over your Government and molest your sister?

Please re-read my request now that I have re-phrased it with emphasis:

Perhaps you could allay any confusion by posting links to credible Islamic commentators who voice aspirations of Global rule.

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By diamond, May 17, 2010 at 1:31 am Link to this comment

A religious fanatic ITW? How did you dream that up? I don’t even have a religion. I suppose you could say I’m a pantheist but that’s not even recognized as a religion. Sometimes you just baffle me with your weird outbursts. All this talk about the caliphate is amusing too. The REAL religious fanatics are always spouting this crap, secure in the knowledge that Muslims couldn’t bring the caliphate back even if they wanted too and most Muslims are far too sensible to even be interested in such reactionary claptrap. The majority of them just want to feed, house, clothe and educate their children and get on, like everyone else. All this stuff about wanting to destroy the west is just CIA/Mossad speak like the endless lies they spouted about Goldstein in ‘1984’. Those in the intelligence services believe literally in what the neo cons say:  ‘The truth is whatever we say it is’. Not in my world, it isn’t,  boys.

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By Marshall, May 17, 2010 at 12:43 am Link to this comment

By brewerstroupe, May 16 at 11:24 pm #

Not difficult to track down references to AQ’s goal of establishing a caliphate -
OBL himself has stated this goal explicitly.

http://images.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/050622/alqaeda_crs.pdf

Also see:

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/ubl-fbis.pdf

Gunaratna, Rohan. 2002. Inside Al Qaeda: Global Network of Terror. New York:
Cambridge University Press

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By Nozferatu, May 16, 2010 at 11:33 pm Link to this comment

ITW:

Whatever…

No amount of drivel from you is going to change who you are, how you think, and what you’ve said.  You’re racist…get used to your new title.

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By kulu, May 16, 2010 at 10:01 pm Link to this comment

ITW

Perhaps you could carve out a bit of YOUR state to accommodate those 7 million Jews in Israel who have nowhere else to go. This would certainly help the Palestinians out a bit.

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By MeHere, May 16, 2010 at 9:46 pm Link to this comment

If only people stopped trying to have a dialogue with ITW….you’re only
encouraging him to do more and more of the same non-productive stuff.  He is
a very frightened man who seems to be living in a continuous mental
holocaust.  If he could only take inspiration and courage from some brilliant
and decent Jewish people who are objecting to the same things many of us do,
he would find some peace of mind.

This is similar to the incessant talk about the Fox news characters and how
awful they are. The more one listens to and talks about them, the more their
celebrity status and their salaries grow.  The networks don’t care whether you
love them or not, they just want to keep the show going.

Please, give ITW time off to reflect. He needs to do much better for Israel and
the Jewish people. And we all need a break!

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By Inherit The Wind, May 16, 2010 at 7:29 pm Link to this comment

Nozferatu:

You just keep lying about me.  Must be some deep-seeded need to see only the bad in other people.

You are so full of shit I’m not surprised you smell something—it’s the shit you’re full of.

You know nothing about me yet because I don’t want Israel destroyed, I’m somehow a racist, a bigot, someone who doesn’t care if other peoples’ lives are ruined.

It’s a mental illness to believe that one peoples’ survival can only come with the destruction of another.  Had you the brains, sense and morals a flea has you’d know that I am STRONG advocate of a Two State solution that gives the Palestinians a chance for peace and prosperity.  It is only in your sick, paranoid perverted head that you could see me as equivalent to a Jeffrey Dahmer killer.

As for being a bigot, racist and inhumane. Just WHAT do you expect to happen to the 7 million Jews in Israel?  Are they simply going to go into the Sea and drown?  Who’s the inhuman bastard now?

The answer is obvious. It is you.  Go serve your radical intolerant, heretic-killing Islamic masters, the ones a billion DECENT Muslims would be rid of, if they could.

I’m surprised in your fucked-up fantasies you haven’t decided that I must make my living robbing widows and orphans, and laughing maniacally when they are tossed into the street in the snow.

It’s no surprise you took the name of a demonic vampyre.

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By brewerstroupe, May 16, 2010 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment

Marshall.

“Theirs is to establish a global caliphate ruled by their brand of Islam.”

I have seen this discussed on several occasions - always on blogs and in articles by the likes of Daniel Pipes and David Horowitz, never by any credible Islamic scholars or even politicians. Are you sure you are not confusing a benign religious concept such as the Christian anticipation of the coming of “The Kingdom of God” or “Zion” with a political and militant movement?

Perhaps you allay any confusion by posting links to credible Islamic commentators who voice aspirations of Global rule.

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By Nozferatu, May 16, 2010 at 6:35 pm Link to this comment

ITW:

Funny you ask.

Right now I’m sponsoring one child through Children’s Relief International and donating about two thousand dollars a year in microloans to 5 different families.

On top of that, I’m active in the local homeless shelter volunteer program where about 3 times a year I donate both food and time and services to feed the people who need help.

On top of that, I donate about $3000 total to various environmental funds (but that’s a different topic). 

You’ve made it clear to all of us that your views are that screw everyone else and clear the path for Israel…it’s that simple.  I don’t care how much you backpedal and paint yourself like a rose.  That’s being a racist bigot.

No the real threat are all those people I named in my previous post..that you support no doubt because many of them are Zionists idiots who are in powerful positions in this country even though they have dual citizenship.  Now how can that be?  No other country is that stupid to allow a bunch of self-serving wackos into the bellows of their government.

As for your comment about illegal Mexicans…they’re a drain to the system you dumbass.  But I’ll leave that to the other thread because I don’t want to give you a chance to deflect the actual topic at hand as you slide down hill.

Save us the bullshit…you’re a racist idiot who cares about no one else except your own kind.  The fact that you raise the example of the Holocaust and Jews being slaughtered every time someone states a negative about Israel makes you an even bigger racist tool.

Yes….let’s forget about Armenians, Rwandans, etc and all others who got murdered and experienced a genocide..there can only be one everyone needs to remember right?  Well so far, the Jews have done an exceptional job to make sure no one remembers anything else but that.  And they’ve done a fantastic job making sure no one knows how inhumanely they treat people in Gaza and West Bank too.  I mean how else would you treat dogs and animals right???  Especially those who have dared claim the land they sit on is not of the chosen people.

Chosen people…I can smell the racism and arrogance from a mile away.  How full of it are you to think you are “chosen” over everyone else?  Seriously…how the fuck do you think you are?

Freaking racist idiot.

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By jack, May 16, 2010 at 6:28 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Mr. Sirota - better to ask, why this? Or, TD, why not carry articles like this?
What or whom do you fear?
 
SPECIAL REPORTS   Last Updated: Jan 18th, 2010 - 00:46:32

Blackwater/XE behind terrorist bombings in Asia and Africa?
By Wayne Madsen
Online Journal Contributing Writer

Jan 18, 2010, 00:25

(WMR)—WMR’s intelligence sources in Asia and Europe are reporting that
the CIA contractor firm XE Services, formerly Blackwater, has been carrying out
“false flag” terrorist attacks in Afghanistan, Somalia, the Sinkiang region of
China, Pakistan, Iran, and Iraq, in some cases with the assistance of Israeli
Mossad and Indian Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) personnel.

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_5477.shtml

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By brewerstroupe, May 16, 2010 at 5:08 pm Link to this comment

huemeister: ”“The truth is that there are thousands, if not millions of militant Islamists who insist that Israel (as well as the U.S. and Europe) be destroyed, and that the Islamic Caliphate be restored, complete with good old 8th Century Sharia laws.”

In which case there must be scads of links to statements or actions by “thousands, if not millions of militant Islamists” you can provide as evidence of this assertion. Please do.

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By Marshall, May 16, 2010 at 4:31 pm Link to this comment

By Anarcissie, May 15 at 11:49 pm #

“Marshall—Al Qaeda’s professed justification for blowing people up is roughly
the same as the American one”

Actually, not even close.  Theirs is to establish a global caliphate ruled by their
brand of Islam.  Ours is to prevent that.  Polar opposites… and no, we’re not
trying to establish a global christian extremist state to replace it.

Your moral relativism attempts to elevate their “cause” (loosely used since, as
you admit, they’re barely a cohesive organization) to the level of grievance and
recast our reaction as simply another version of the same thing.  But that’s a
corrupt philosophy and it would be like excusing a criminal murderer because
he dressed up his behavior with a “reason”.  But i’m not looking to continue a
pointless and meandering argument with your flimsy reasoning so i’m ending
that here.

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By Nozferatu, May 16, 2010 at 4:13 pm Link to this comment

ITW:

No…no lies….just plain old simple truth.

You’re a one-sided racist bigot who has demonized all other cultures except (and I presume) your own which is Jewish. 

You have no problem justifying that Israel MUST exist no matter what the cost of peoples’ lives, deaths, murders, bombings, etc….none whatsoever…fuck everyone else right?  I mean who are others to dare speak against the chosen people.

Somehow, the life of an Israeli or Jew to you is worth the life of 1000 people around him/her.  Ultra-racist, ultra-hatefilled beliefs.

And opening your mouth and driveling the line “anti-Semitic” bullshit won’t earn you any points here.

It’s gotten so old now…no one gives a shit anymore about you or your sorry ass Jewish state or the state of the people who live there.  Why should anyone care about a bunch warmongering nut jobs hell bent on creating so much misery for all around?

Everyone see’s it for what it is.  The sorry fact that few on this planet mobilize to stop the nonsense of Israel and the US isn’t a head-nod of acceptance.

Luckily for you, people have simply become ambivalent about these issues and probably wonder what impact they would have anyway when the media is run by “-steins and -bergs”, the White House’s most influencial and important positions filled with “Emanuals, Wolfowitz’s, Boltons, Summers, Paulsons, Geithners, Kissinger’s, etc” and the Fed is filled with Bernake’s, Greenspans, Hamlins, Gould Hardings, Meyers, Eugene Blacks, Arthur Burns’s, Millers, Volkers, and so on….

Of course…this is all an imagination…tin foil hat stuff.

Damage control is too late for you….you’re a first class bigot and racist.  No amount of babbling from you will change that.

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By PatrickHenry, May 16, 2010 at 4:01 pm Link to this comment

Blowback: Why They Try to Bomb Us

Silly title, maybe it’s the all about the collareral damage and invasion of their country.

We’ve likely killed as many of our own troops by depleted uranium dust as we’ve killed Afghans and Pakis.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 16, 2010 at 3:46 pm Link to this comment

Nozferatu, May 16 at 4:00 pm #

Diamond,

You can’t argue with ITW.

Remember, this is the same idiot who thinks whatever Israel does is justified…murder, bombing, using illegal clusterbombs, etc…never mind, it’s Israel!  Fuck everyone else.

This is his mentality….biased, racist, self-centered, and egocentric.  There’s more to his thinking that merely “right/wrong” sides.  It’s about power and control.
***************************************

Another idiot spreading lies about me.  If one doesn’t believe that Israel should be immediately wiped out, then one must completely and totally support WHATEVER the current right-wing regime there is doing.

Another lying idiot, perfect for Toot-Toot!

Diamond: I won’t ask you to read what I wrote. Instead read what YOU wrote!

You contradict yourself repeatedly!

ROFLMAO!

It’s hilarious to bait religious fanatics like Diamond.

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By amunaor, May 16, 2010 at 12:14 pm Link to this comment

Peter Chamberlin 2007 >>

We are about to start a conflict extending from Lebanon to Iran, to eliminate Israel’s enemies. Don’t we owe it to those who are about to die at our hands to learn whether Israel planned these wars for us? Is the government correct, that Iran is really fomenting these wars, or are they just being blamed for them, because of successful Israeli false flag operations, which were designed to pull the US into destroying all of Israel’s threatening neighbors? If the answer is the latter, then how far did Israeli covert efforts go in to forcing us into solving their wars? Would that mean that the Israelis were the invisible element in the 9/11 demolition? Or could it be that there was a dedicated hardcore Zionist-American faction, which undertook the dirty treasonous act on Israel’s behalf? Were the neocon plotters, specifically, the “Wolfowitz cabal,” responsible for this “false flag” terror attack?

There is a lot of information floating around on the web about Mossad involvement in covert terrorist elements in these hot spots (many of them blamed on associates of Al Qaida). The Mossad has even been linked to death squads in Iraq and in Kurdestan, in apparent efforts to ignite religious civil strife and interstate conflict within Muslim populations. Is Israel behind the “Al Qaida-linked” terrorists who are igniting the Lebanese conflict, or are these really the efforts of the American/Saudi “Welch group?”

We know that Hamas is a creation of Mossad, creating it to one day foment a Palestinian civil war, in order to eliminate prospects of a diplomatic solution to the conflict……

FULL STORY:
http://www.atlanticfreepress.com/content/view/2215/81/

What of the Five Dancing Israelis Arrested On 9-11, Held for 10 weeks, then quietly released?

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/193061-The-Five-Dancing-Israelis-Arrested-On-9-11

Peace, Best Wishes and Hope

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By Nozferatu, May 16, 2010 at 12:00 pm Link to this comment

Diamond,

You can’t argue with ITW.

Remember, this is the same idiot who thinks whatever Israel does is justified…murder, bombing, using illegal clusterbombs, etc…never mind, it’s Israel!  Fuck everyone else.

This is his mentality….biased, racist, self-centered, and egocentric.  There’s more to his thinking that merely “right/wrong” sides.  It’s about power and control.

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By diamond, May 16, 2010 at 11:48 am Link to this comment

You have such a convenient memory ITW. Have you forgotten that the anthrax in the anthrax letters was supposed to contain bentonite which ‘proved’ it came from Iraq? The media went into a feeding frenzy, claiming it was Saddam Hussein who sent the letters.

By October 28 2001 ABC was reporting that four well-placed and separate sources had told ABC News that initial tests on the anthrax by the U.S. army at Fort Detrick, Maryland, had detected trace amounts of the chemical additives bentonite and silica. Bentonite being a hallmark of the Iraqi weapons program.

Yet by 2007 ABC had to admit that in spite of their report, no bentonite had ever actually been found; but ABC still refused to reveal where they got the information from. Once the claim that bentonite had been found was put out via TV and newspaper the usual suspects entered the fray.

William Kristol and Robert Kagan: ‘What will it take for the FBI and the CIA to start connecting the dots here? A signed confession from Saddam?’

The Wall Street Journal: ‘The leading supplier has to be Iraq.’

The National Review: ‘The government has to do everything possible to destroy the anthrax threat at its state-sponsored source. Iraqi intelligence was intimately involved in the 9/11 attacks and the military grade anthrax sent to Senators Leahy and Daschle almost certainly came from an Iraqi lab.’

And Fox News went on claiming, right up to 2007, that there was a Middle Eastern source for the anthrax. Long after it had become accepted that it came from a U.S. military lab.

They knew they couldn’t credibly link Saddam Hussein to the 9/11 attacks which they had already claimed had been ‘masterminded’ by Osama bin Laden who was a ‘religious fanatic’ and ‘hated the West’ while Saddam Hussein loathed the mullahs and kept them tightly controlled and had been put in power by the CIA and armed and funded by America for years (the chemical weapons he used on the Kurds were thoughtfully supplied by the likes of Donald Rumsfeld). The chances of establishing a credible link were just about zero so they came up with a ‘twofer’. Scare the hell out of Leahy and Daschle and make them vote for the Patriot Act and claim Iraq was behind the anthrax letters. Both of which they did. There are still people around today who are convinced Iraq was involved in the 9/11 attacks, even though not one Iraqi citizen was involved- there was not one Afghan citizen involved either and Osama bin Laden, (like Saddam Hussein) worked for the CIA. The people who organized all this are clever, but not quite clever enough to fool all of the people all of the time.

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By cyrena, May 16, 2010 at 11:14 am Link to this comment

By amunaor, May 16 at 2:00 am

Ammaor,

Thanks for posting the links to The Power of Nightmares. I’ve done the same myself, but it’s been a while, and it’s not surprising that most Americans have never seen that documentary, despite it’s age.

And I’m going to suggest it again on some other sites where I participate.

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By Nozferatu, May 16, 2010 at 11:08 am Link to this comment

A Khokar,

Indeed…Bin Laden will never be caught because he’s been on the US payroll to do US dirty work (whether it be for the US directly or a false-flag operation) and this will not change. 

The US would never jeopardize relations with the Saudi’s because Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and the entire bankroll of this country has close ties to the Arabs over there.

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By Géza Éder, May 16, 2010 at 10:58 am Link to this comment

I mostly disagree with the article though.  People whose lives are fucked up won’t go to the US to blow stuff up, because they don’t have the means to do that.  They pose no significant thread to the US anyway, except if they get their hands on an atomic bomb etc.  This kind of “blowback” is easy to handle because its manifestations are often easy to discredit and it doesn’t come from the people who’re really fucked.

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By Géza Éder, May 16, 2010 at 10:38 am Link to this comment

ITW:
“Like, Suppose OUR OWN LEADERSHIP had allowed and worked with the country flying drones over us.”

Yes, because, you know, they have a choice.  I mean, Hungary actually called in the Soviets in 1956!  The Vietnamese wanted the US there!  Austria positively clamoured for the Anschluss!  What a hypocritical argument ffs.

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By A Khokar, May 16, 2010 at 10:34 am Link to this comment

Bin Laden will never ever be caught; nor may this war against terror see its end…!

US have spent some trillions of dollars in making up a phoney pretext of war against Terror and to make sure that Terrorism is seen ‘live and kicking’. Drones attacks are the latest tactics implied to keep up the impetus.

Pakistan is certainly scared that after bringing an utter devastation in Afghanistan; Pakistan finds itself set as next US target for its neutralization. US does not like that people in its area of operation are in any position to challenge its authority and thereby feels justified to eliminate any such resistances.

Reportedly in Pakistan US is carrying out covert operations through TTP and enough of provocation is being done to instigate Waziries in FATA by attacking them by drones. 

America is in habit of ruling over the ruins only.

Regards

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By Géza Éder, May 16, 2010 at 10:34 am Link to this comment

huemeister: “The truth is that there are thousands, if not millions of militant Islamists who insist that Israel (as well as the U.S. and Europe) be destroyed, and that the Islamic Caliphate be restored, complete with good old 8th Century Sharia laws.”

I’m more afraid of the results of this kind of self-deluding idiocy than any Muslim menace.  You’d be absolutely offended if people judged the US based on the tea party people or the KKK, both of which have some popular support, while you have no fucking problem with looking at other people in this way.  Disgusting.

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By Kwagmyre, May 16, 2010 at 10:10 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

ITW wrote:

“Supposing David Sirota set up a straw man the only partially represented the situation.
Supposing David Sirota deliberately omitted valid assumptions that would weaken his thesis.

Supposing.”

That’s fine to challenge Sirota for creating this “straw man” as you point out but what kind of assumptions would be omitted that would then weaken the thesis, even if not substantially so?

All that’s done here as is quite evident is to present a plausible sort of scenario that people in the U.S. hopefully *might* be able to relate to.  The effect then might be able to generate even a modicum of empathy towards those in Pakistan at the receiving end of the drones.

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By FRTothus, May 16, 2010 at 8:18 am Link to this comment

9/11 was an inside job.  There was no jumbo jet at
the Pentagon.  The Towers were brought down, as was
Building 7, with controlled explosives, profiting a
good many Americans.  Until we dispense with the
fiction that Muslims attacked the West, when the
opposite has been true for the last 500+ years, we
will never understand what dupes we’ve been played
for in supporting a war for west Asian oil, most of
which is going to Europe anyway (though the US and
British oligarchs still profit from it all, largely
at taxpayer expense). 

War is a necessity for the US.  It must dispose of
billions of dollars - waste billions of dollars, to
ensure scarcity which keeps prices up - in a way that
does not enrich all of the people, but does (greatly)
enrich (favor with extreme prejudice) a certain few. 
If the money’s use were democratically decided, a bad
precedent would be set, because it would show that
the emperor has no clothes. It would allow (economic)
democracy to occur, and that closely-held decision-
making power is absolutely the last thing those who
have privilege wish to share.

“Don’t trust your leaders, watch your parking meters” 
(Bob Dylan)

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By balkas, May 16, 2010 at 7:12 am Link to this comment

Only describing events, and leaving out why these events occur and reccur, cannot bring on an elucidation.
It seems all MSM collumnists, use this method of deception.
In short, their pieces amount to giving unwary readers sensation sans causation.

But if one describes events not only accurately, but also adequately, one enlightens.
One needs to tell people why what is occuring is happening.

Only thus can anyone enlighten or educate people. Furthermore, such an education [truth1, if one wills] being valid only at a point of time; i.e., its validity being OK for today but not necessarily for tomorrow.

As per necessary or certain{apodictic} truth, a truth can exist only at a point of time.
Theis cld be limned as an invariance under transformation.

The symbol “truth” stands for s’mthing else while TRUTH1 today, stands for s’mthing. This leads to sanity.
But u ain’t gonna hear this from priests, pols, and media people.
For in an unsane world, unsane but cunning people, prosper much better than in a sane world.

But first of all, in order for them to be our lords, they first had to render all of us unsane.
Big apes do not have unsanity or, if u like, insanity! And once that had been accomplished, all ills befell us and our planet.
It goes by the name of the “Civilization”. Yes, once u cleanse it of genocides, exploitation, warfare, oppression, hatred for darkies! tnx

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By Inherit The Wind, May 16, 2010 at 4:33 am Link to this comment

toot-toot:
You are obnoxious and offensive to everyone here.  What makes you think I’d waste time clicking on a clearly ALREADY BIASED link like that. I’ll probably choke on the swastikas.

You are just another bigoted fool eager to blame Jews and Israel for all the evil in the world, just like this Times Square fool.  Know one of the reasons he hated America?  Eve Arden wouldn’t increase his salary from $50,000/year!  Most Americans would LOVE to make that kind of money but it wasn’t good enough for that fool.

He had no real sympathy for “the people”. He was raised shielded, with power and privilege that Paris Hilton would envy.  There’s no evidence he ever even SAW his ancestral village.

As someone who claims a moral high ground you don’t even realize that when you explicitly tell somebody to felate your rectum, you show just what a hateful, disgusting POS you are.

Your opinion of me is of no meaning. I was here long before you were and I’ll be here long after you flame out.

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By amunaor, May 15, 2010 at 10:00 pm Link to this comment

How PR Firms have utilized Freudian Psychology to stear the public mind.

Please watch these BBC Documentries—“The Power of Nightmares”:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/12/22/212041/57/454/425671

or Here:

http://www.google.com/search?q=power+of+nightmares+part+1&tbo=p&tbs=vid:1&source=vgc&aq=1&oq=Power+of+Night

Adam Curtis exposes the public manipulation we sense but usually don’t understand. His BBC documentaries are legendary in Britain but practically unknown in the US. An American network executive who wouldn’t even let his name be used said “we would be crucified if we showed that here”. These documentaries are like a graduate course in how the American and British public has been herded like cattle since the end of World War I.

The Power of Nightmares episode 1 is about the ideological revulsion to the consumer society created by industry and public relations. Simultaneously, Sayyid Qutb resolved to purge the Muslim world of Western consumerism while Leo Strauss resolved to make consuming Americans Crusaders for freedom around the world.  Ayman Zawahiri was a student of Qutb and Paul Wolfowitz was a student of Strauss.

The Power of Nightmares episode 2 shows Bin Laden and the Neo cons fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan and how the Soviet collapse left both without an enemy to herd their public with.

The Power of Nightmares episode 3 shows how 911 was used to give those “with the most fear, the most power” and how the Neo cons recreated the terrorist threat.

Peace, Best Wishes and Hope

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By Inherit The Wind, May 15, 2010 at 9:39 pm Link to this comment

I cannot argue with a religious fanatic.  Most of your questions are totally bogus but it’s more fun to live in the fantasy world of grassy knolls and pretend that nobody actually SAW 767s hit the towers.

I’ve watched a constant acceleration of make-believe “facts” that exist ONLY on the internet, “connect-the-dots” that make no sense, and always followed by insults that anyone DARE to question that it was an inside job that would have taken months of on-site preparation and has no discernible motive that makes any kind of sense.

An inside job implies it was designed to get us into war in Afghanistan, but not Iraq.  If they wanted to get us into a war with Iraq (which we KNOW from Woodward that the Bush regime did) then why did all the so-called “fake” clues lead to Afghanistan and not Iraq?

Nobody has EVER provided any kind of answer.  Only ElisaLouisa came close, providing a good motive for wanting war with Afghanistan, but still not good enough to chart the path the chicken hawks under Bush led us to.

Without that clear path, all your arguments are nothing but grassy knoll fantasies.

Ex post facto determinations of cause are, be definition, suspect.

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By Farzan, May 15, 2010 at 9:14 pm Link to this comment

Remember the first attempt to kill Saddam? We destroyed
many blocks in Baghdad’s Mansour district. No Saddam. 
We said “oh well. It will be a little longer war.” We
did not care about the huge civilian death then either. 
We are making more revenge-motivated terrorists than ideology-motivated ones.
It pained me that Obama joked he wanted to use Predator
planes to hit his daughters boyfriends.

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By Anarcissie, May 15, 2010 at 7:49 pm Link to this comment

Marshall—Al Qaeda’s professed justification for blowing people up is roughly the same as the American one, so I don’t see how one can be “pure evil” and not the other.  If it’s just a tribal war, of course, we’re us and they’re them.  But that isn’t the professed justification on either side (if you can call al-Qaeda, which barely exists, a “side”).

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By zack, May 15, 2010 at 3:40 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ron Paul was telling you all this in the 2007 primaries, but few in the media, GOP or Democratic parties would listen. Ron Paul was right.

Ron Paul 2012

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By TheHandyman, May 15, 2010 at 3:06 pm Link to this comment

The US is a Democracy, well, not really but close enough, so we elect our government. Our government then invades other countries and kills tens or hundreds of thousands of that countries citizens. Those people reason that since we elected our government we are responsible and condone their acts. Since they aren’t militarily capable of resisting they do what they can which is kill the citizens of this country because we are killing them. They are bringing the war to the people that are responsible for it!

Not hard to figure out. Not only do the People of this country have the government they deserve, they also deserve the blowback of what this government has done!

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By mike112769, May 15, 2010 at 2:50 pm Link to this comment

DIAMOND: A truly excellent post from you at 5:04. These are the questions that nobody wants to acknowledge, much less answer. Asking these questions would shake the very foundations of some peoples’ existence. These are the peole who believe anything the government spouts, no matter how blatant the lie.

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By Marshall, May 15, 2010 at 2:31 pm Link to this comment

So bogus.

They bomb us because they are Al Qaeda.  They target civilians by the truckloads
in any country they can and pretend they’re justified by some kind of religious
imperative.  They are the embodiment of evil… yet in Sirota’s eyes, they are just
practicing simple blow back.  In other words, we’re the problem.

This guy’s a d-bag.

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By A Khokar, May 15, 2010 at 2:20 pm Link to this comment

Carry on Droning

Daily innocent villagers are being killed in the savage exercise of indiscriminate killing by Drones attacks in Pakistan.

Whatever the pretext may be; with every strike when an innocent is killed; 5 more terrorist are born.
So Please Carry on Droning.

And soon; you may find those victims here on the streets of New York.

But I have got one humblec suggestion that:
Never under estimate the enemy;—-US must kill by droning only those many people—- that when their retaliatory missiles or bomb blast rain us here in US; this public is also able to bear that.

Recently; US put up a very bad show when Faisal shahzaid; who just tried a crudest of all the bombs—- which did not explode in Time square but entire US remained in the grip of terror for days.

Better learn; not to cry when opposite side will attacks in vengeance.

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By amunaor, May 15, 2010 at 2:10 pm Link to this comment

Thank you David Sirota for attempting to raise the ‘guilt factor’, as though there even were such a thing!

What happened to those Big Gandhi ears? What happened to the “extreme urgency of now”? What happened to pursuing the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld wars for plunder, murder, occupation and subjugation? What happened to the overwhelming populace wave that swept our ring-bearer to the mountaintop, in order to achieve that which we could not individually; to set right those inequities? The bubble over the Whitish Home seems to have drowned out our voices, for we are not a part of that inner bubble of Social Democracy.

Nine-Eleven did not happen in a vacuum; without any triggers; weather contrived, or otherwise, it became an exploitable psychodrama. It’s always much easier to rearrange the playing field, while in a state of chaos and confusion; any barking dogs solution metastasizes easily into acceptance within the frightened ears of the crowd.

As Obama widens drone attacks in Pakistan, should we not be alarmed with the cold superficial deliberation being applied to drone targeting criteria; assumedly programmed into the gaming hardware’s software to assist the remotely placed shooter in decision making; this should make every ones hair stand up on end!?

—Suspected militants; based upon, pattern of life analyses; without a need for ascertaining identity!

How much less disconcerting the destruction of life has become to the heart, when depicted as pattern of soulless, digital imagery on a flat screen gaming monitor?

Indiscriminately murdering people, from a remote controlled, gaming machine, high in the sky above thecrowd, is not going result in hugs, kisses and well-wishes being returned by the recipients of those cowardly gestures.

What is to be expected from a population, which has experienced two-decades of Hi-Tec pummeling and pulverization; what, the throwing of a pair of shoes?

So, where does it all end?

Among the questions being raised are the apparently central role US Special Forces played in the arrest of Faisal Shahzad is this: To what extent are US Special Forces permitted to operate ‘drones’ on US soil under President Obama?

And this:

Predator Drones to Fly Over Texas-Mexico Border by Fall!

In other word, Collateral Murder to reign down from the skies, coming soon to a city near you:
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/05/11-1

It certainly does render the disgustingly, lame – predator-drone - joke that fell from President Obama’s mouth even less palatable than drone use already was!

Neither should we surmise that if by ignoring what lies below the ‘greater’ existing tip of the iceberg, blowback will simply morph into more hugs and kisses, from our earthly neighbors, rather than more shoes being tossed by those who loath U.S. psychopathic pursuit of happiness.

“Just look at that pile of dead bastards over there,” laughs, the desensitized, disposable shooter!

WikiLeaks—Collateral Murder
http://wikileaks.org/

Peace, Best Wishes and Hope

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By diamond, May 15, 2010 at 1:04 pm Link to this comment

Yes, yes ITW I’ve heard it all before. You and those like you will talk about anything else but the questions that you don’t want to answer. You’ll talk about men from Mars and tin foil hats and all the rest but it’s all obfuscation because you know the facts prove it was a controlled demolition and an inside job.

To prove it wasn’t an inside job you need to explain why three buildings came down at freefall speed when no explosives were used. You need to explain how three buildings were blown into white powder by KEROSENE which is what jet fuel is. And you need to explain why Bush sat in that elementary school for nearly 15 minutes after he was told the nation was ‘under attack’. You need to explain why he went into the school at all, when Deborah Loewrer of the White House Situation Room told him before he went in that the first tower had been hit. He did nothing and said nothing. He showed no surprise and took no action.

This is on a par with the testimony under oath of Norman Mineta, Secretary of Transportation, to the 9/11 Commission that Dick Cheney sat in the Presidential Emergency Control Centre, where under the constitution he had no right to be in charge, and did NOTHING for the forty minutes it took a plane to allegedly fly across America and attack the Pentagon. You need to explain why the computer-controlled batteries of anti-aircraft missiles around the Pentagon didn’t fire. You need to explain why the Somerset County coroner at Shanksville said he never saw ‘one body or one drop of blood’. You need to explain why the Mayor of Shanksville, Ernie Stull, told a German TV reporter that there was no plane at Shanksville and that in fact there was ‘nothing but a hole in the ground’. You need to explain why no fighter jets were sent up to protect Air Force One as it carried Bush away from the elementary school. You need to explain why Richard Clarke testified to the 9/11 Commission that he had an order from Bush on the morning of 9/11 to shoot Flight 93 down. You need to explain why the passengers on Flight 93 made cell phones calls they couldn’t have made because pico cell technology to enable such calls was only being introduced in 2006/2007.

You need to explain why Nena Lensbouer who worked at the scrapyard near the site of the ‘plane crash’ at Shanksville and was the first person to go up to the smoking hole in the ground said she never saw a plane or any bodies then or at any time during the ‘excavation’ which the official story claims recovered 95% of the plane wreckage and 10% of body parts. She also said the hole was 6 feet deep and not as long as the 24 foot trailer in her front yard. You need to explain why CNN reporters at the Pentagon said there was no indication a plane had ever been anywhere near the Pentagon. You need to explain why military personnel working in the auditing department of the Pentagon say bombs went off at the Pentagon at 8.32 am when the first official version of events said a plane hit the Pentagon at 8.48 am. You need to explain why none of the so called hijackers’ names appear on any of the passenger manifests for any of the flights. You need to explain why the 9/11 Commission lied about the steel columns at the center of both the Twin Towers and claimed they had ‘hollow shafts’ at their centers which contained elevators and stairwells. Richard Nixon, on the infamous White House tapes is heard saying that the Warren Commission was ‘the biggest fraud ever perpetrated’. Not any more.

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By yreadthis, May 15, 2010 at 8:17 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

We are yet to know why the terrorist are blooming around the world. What are there needs and why do they kill and destroy the poor public’s, don’t they thing its incorrect what they do when they are going to stop this, everything is at an very big big ???? Non of us could make them stop but we protect our-self from the death from there hands.“SAD OF THE LIFE”

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By kulu, May 15, 2010 at 7:45 am Link to this comment

mike112729

I did not mean to imply that all Americans are for the wars etc etc; obviously not as most of the posts here illustrate. Still they are the only ones who could, by collective action stand some chance of forcing an end to the carnage.

I know such collective action would be very hard to organize since, unlike the riots in response to the Greek fiasco, these wars do not have a resounding and immediate affect on peoples daily lives… and there would be tremendous personal risk involved in tackling an ever more powerful and ruthless establishment.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 15, 2010 at 4:59 am Link to this comment

diamond, May 15 at 7:15 am #

Glider, 9/11 is not listed on Osama bin Laden’s FBI rap sheet and not one Afghan citizen was involved. Not one Iraqi citizen was involved either and I can assure you that the people who ‘blew you up’ were not Muslims. The students they want to blame simply couldn’t have had the access to those buildings to lay the groundwork for controlled demolitions. But others did have that access and as I’ve said, they weren’t Muslims.
********************************************

Yeah, and those planes we saw fly into each building were really giant holographic projections.  Those clever CIA guys and those clever Jews!
After all, they engineered this BP blowout, and the Massey mine disaster, Hurricane Katrina, earthquakes and that fender-bender in Kansas yesterday.  In fact they are probably running the Chinese and Russian governments since we all “know” they are controlling the US government and probably the UK’s as well.

“GETCHER TIN FOIL HATS HERE!!”

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By diamond, May 15, 2010 at 3:15 am Link to this comment

Glider, 9/11 is not listed on Osama bin Laden’s FBI rap sheet and not one Afghan citizen was involved. Not one Iraqi citizen was involved either and I can assure you that the people who ‘blew you up’ were not Muslims. The students they want to blame simply couldn’t have had the access to those buildings to lay the groundwork for controlled demolitions. But others did have that access and as I’ve said, they weren’t Muslims.

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By Z1, May 15, 2010 at 2:05 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Obama, as Bush before him proves the old adage, arrogance is nothing more than ignorance matured

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By zaphodity, May 15, 2010 at 12:10 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

FINALLY twigged eh ?

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By G.Anderson, May 14, 2010 at 11:17 pm Link to this comment

As a thought experiment Mr. Sirota’s, is a calamity.

Because it presupposes, that this country would respond, like Pakistan is doing now. But that is not the case.

In the event that our countries roles were reversed, there is no doubt in my mind, that Pakistan would be incinerated to molten slag by millions of megatons of nuclear weapons. And that not a single living thing would be left, to bear witness to what we had done.

Each weekend in this country in every major city there is whole sale slaughter via gang killings of many citizens, but for the most part our military doesn’t seem too concerned about that. Our prisons are filled, to overflowing, etc., etc., etc.,..

But since there is no need to fight for freedom and justice here in America, at least not with any significant amount of funding, those problems are only dealt with in symbolic ways…

I have another thought experiment, that would be much more productive.

I propose that one day, in a unexplainable flash of revelation, the American people realize they have been played for fools by the 1%er’s, who own this country and both political parties, and decide to go on a massive strike, like they did in Greece, and demand the return of our military from Afghanistan, Iraq, and all our military bases around the world.

Imagine America, no longer the worlds cop, the military no longer the tool of the plutocracy…

Imagine instead a world without war, and a pentagon, without much of a budget.

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By SteveL, May 14, 2010 at 9:28 pm Link to this comment

Blowback: Why They Try to Bomb Us<<<  Notice they don’t bomb nations that leave them alone?

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By dennis, May 14, 2010 at 9:25 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Oh that I could wake up one morning and see a map with no United States or Israel on it.I don’t know when the Kingdom of God will come, but the elimination of those two countries would certainly hasten it.

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By jack, May 14, 2010 at 9:12 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Sirota is either a useful fool or a rich asset - Blowback and Incompetence are
exactly the tag-team cover employed throughout the MSM (from Left to Right)
since the onset of The Global War Of Terror - launched in ernest Sept. 11, 2001.

The Global War Of Terror is GLADIO for the 21st C. - Look it up. It’s an historic
fact. And, the Myth of Islamofascism is the replacement for that era’s Myth of
Monolithic Communism - Sirota should either get a clue, or call in to Langley for
his next assignment.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 14, 2010 at 8:57 pm Link to this comment

WriterOnTheStorm, May 14 at 3:49 pm #

Inherit,

What’s the point of your comment?

a). Anger toward arrogant superpowers contributes nothing to the narrative
that is used to justify terrorist violence?

b). That people in developing nations are just wrong, and have no legitimate
reason to be angry at superpowers like the US?

or

c). That you are smarter than David Sirota?
******************************************

I thought my point was blatantly obvious: A thesis advanced that deliberately ignores facts that weaken or disprove it is no thesis.

I don’t know if I am “smarter” than David Sirota but I’m damn well not afraid to challenge anyone who cuts corners on his facts as Sirota did.  Who gives a $#!t if he’s “smarter” or I am?  I challenge Chris Hedges ALL the time and I’m sure the general consensus is that CH is “smarter” than me.

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By glider, May 14, 2010 at 7:21 pm Link to this comment

By Soothsayer, May 14 at 3:32 pm #

>>This would all be a bit straighter if not for the fact that they began trying to blow us up before we went over there<<

Odd view there.  Just when do you think we first went “over there”?  Did not Bin Laden himself tell you he attacked us for being in the land of Mecca?

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By mike112769, May 14, 2010 at 5:12 pm Link to this comment

I, like a lot of people, voted for Obama. I did this for two reasons: He said he would get us out of the Middle East, and as a condemnation of the Bush administration. I thought a vote for McCain would be giving my approval for what Bush had done to our Constitution and the world.

I deeply regret voting for Obama. He has continued, and escalated, every violent action (except maybe water-boarding) practiced by the Bush regime. We may as well have kept Bush/Cheney in office.

Pulling all of our troops from Afghanistan and Iraq (et al.) would go a long way in reducing the number of suicide attacks overseas and domestic “terrorist” attacks here at home. When we are killing these people with impunity and no regard for where our bombs land, we must expect that their relatives will want vengeance. If someone killed my children out of arrogance and/or bad target selection, I would have my revenge too.

Most Americans (not all, as implied by KULU) want our troops home. Most of us do not want indiscriminate bombing. Obama was supposed to have “changed” how America interacts with the rest of the world. He lied to us and everyone else on the planet.

If we were to pull out of the ME, and then we were attacked by an army, I would be all for retribution. If we are really over there because of what happened on 9/11, then we have had our vengeance a thousandfold. I still fail to see how we can hold entire countries at fault for what a few of their citizens did. Invading Iraq/Afghanistan because of 9/11 is like killing a man’s entire family for running a red light. If we were serious about stopping “terrorism” at its roots, why then did we not invade Saudi Arabia? “Terrorists” should be dealt with through the courts, not by the military. 9/11 was simply an excuse for our military/industrial complex to make some more money off of mass murder.

It is true that we have fostered widespread resentment by backing the Israelis no matter what they do. I think this is out of guilt for what happened in WWII, and a hugely influential AIPAC with a shit-ton of money to throw at our politicians. We do need to protect Israel’s right to exist, but not more than we also need to defend the Palestinians’ right to exist.

Continuing to treat every Middle Eastern country as a breeding ground for “terrorists” will guarantee they will become a breeding ground for “terrorists”. We cannot ask people to treat us with respect and dignity if we do not treat them with respect and dignity.

I wonder: Are we keeping our troops overseas because there are no jobs here for them to came back to? Why do people even volunteer for the Army, except out of desperation for a job? You cannot claim to be protecting America if you’re not on American soil. You are projecting American power, nothing more. Look at the similarities between our troops today and the troops returning from Viet Nam. Depression, drug abuse, very high suicide rates, murder, mental illness. Does this sound as if our troops believe in the rightness of our cause?

I think this is just a war for money and oil, to benefit a select few at the expense of everyone else. When we refuse to try to talk with our enemies, what else are they to do but strike at us in any way they can?

Haven’t we had our revenge? Get out now.

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By Anarcissie, May 14, 2010 at 4:14 pm Link to this comment

Soothsayer, May 14 at 3:32 pm:
‘This would all be a bit straighter if not for the fact that they began trying to blow us up before we went over there.’

I find statements like this quite remarkable—it’s an example of the total ignorance or forgetfulness I was talking about.

Huemeister presents a different problem, that of the liberal imperialist, who believes it is the job of the United States to set the entire world in order.  A crazy idea, but at least not one blankly unconscious of facts.

The liberal imperialism I can argue with.  I don’t know what to do about the ignorance; at this late date, it must be like a stone wall.

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By mrtmbrnmn, May 14, 2010 at 3:17 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

we are smacking the hornet’s nest in afghanistan and pakistan BECAUSE that will make the general situation for them (and for us)worse.  this is chaos theory in action.  the worse it is, the better it is for those who get rich off the chaos (see the botched invasion and “securing” of iraq in 2003 or katrina or even the recent bp offshore oil drilling explosion/manslaughter/environmental catastrophe). if we really wanted to attack the leading gang of worldwide terrorists (the brits are calling them “the wolf pack”), we would have our drones hovering day and night over al-qeada of wall street.  every time we spotted one of those toxic criminals from goldman sachs or jp morgan or citibank or aig in their $5000 suits leaving their offices to visit their $4000 hookers, we could ZAP!! them from a height of 3,000 feet, risk free. That would do the trick or at least put the fear into the rest of those psychos.  who wouldn’t applaud that!  let them eat credit default swaps!!!

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By LocalHero, May 14, 2010 at 3:01 pm Link to this comment

huemeister & Soothsayer

You fellows only know the cartoon-version of history. We’ve been meddling & killing in those countries for decades - long before the Islamic world had the still-anemic ability to strike back. And, all those places sited by huemeister as examples of violence by Islamic extremists (“Afghanistan, Kenya, Indonesia (Bali bombing), Spain, the Philippines, the U.S., Britain, Thailand, Egypt, India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Russia,), I guarantee that 95% of them were false flag operations carried out by either the U.S., Britain or Israel.

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By the worm, May 14, 2010 at 1:46 pm Link to this comment

We invaded their nation, we bombed their people, we dropped explosives from
drones, we killed their wives, children and fathers. We have no understanding of
their language, their culture, their history. We disdain their religion and their lives.
We are their to help them.

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By RdV, May 14, 2010 at 12:24 pm Link to this comment

Well, you see, everybody knows that all Muslim Arabs are terrorists that attacked us on 911 and it will take til infinity for us to exact our revenge.

  Funny how that isn’t it works for white, Right wing terrorists like Timothy McVeigh—-wonder why we aren’t dropping drones on white Right wing terrorists—-I mean, how can you tell if they’re not?

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By WriterOnTheStorm, May 14, 2010 at 11:49 am Link to this comment

Inherit,

What’s the point of your comment?

a). Anger toward arrogant superpowers contributes nothing to the narrative
that is used to justify terrorist violence?

b). That people in developing nations are just wrong, and have no legitimate
reason to be angry at superpowers like the US?

or

c). That you are smarter than David Sirota?

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By Soothsayer, May 14, 2010 at 11:32 am Link to this comment

This would all be a bit straighter if not for the fact that they began trying to blow us up before we went over there.

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By Shift, May 14, 2010 at 11:06 am Link to this comment

Mindless killing on a small scale sets a dangerous precedent.

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By gerard, May 14, 2010 at 10:42 am Link to this comment

I am so grateful to other commenters that Mr. Huemaster’s tirade doesn’t carry any weight with them!  Thank you all, and let’s figure out a way to get this country out of its war-making psychosis.

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By felicity, May 14, 2010 at 9:52 am Link to this comment

Well, the Crusades lasted for 200 years.  For 200 years the West tried to wipe out, eliminate, whatever the Muslim population of the Near East.  We failed.

Conclusion?  We’ve got about 190 years left to wipe out the Taliban?  Muslims in general?  Would-be terrorists?  Al Qaeda?  And of course, we likewise will fail, but hey, no one can say we didn’t try.

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By Nozferatu, May 14, 2010 at 9:29 am Link to this comment

Huemeister:

Our leaving that region WOULD alleviate the situation but over time.  You have to leave a gaping wound alone for it to heal.  The US has done so much damage and ruined so many peoples’ lives in so many areas of the world that it’ll take a generation or two forget about it.

Until then, the US needs to grow up and deal with the consequences that happen….just as a bully in a school yard who’s gone to far will need to deal with the apples and oranges and rocks thrown at him by the people he bullied

It’s the arrogance and self-righteousness of Americans, coupled with their new-found religious BS that is stirring this on. 

Those groups you talk about that are so radical are no more radical than the lunatic nutjob like Eric Prince of the freaks in the Hutaree groups.  What makes these guys any different other than an army outfit and three piece suit? 

This bullshit Christian soldier crap coupled with the undying, unadulterated love and support for Israel is enough to make anyone hurl and be angry enough to lash out. 

No, leaving won’t stop others from lashing out but it’s the only way to stop it in the longer term.  The US needs to get its dirty, grubby hands out of the lives of others.  You have no business being anywhere else but within your own continental shores.

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thecrow's avatar

By thecrow, May 14, 2010 at 9:22 am Link to this comment

“…not only do we show no signs of slowing down in the behavior that causes us to be Terrorist targets, each new attack causes us to intensify that behavior through the use of the most circular logic imaginable.  President Obama said this week that we must continue to fight in Afghanistan because of the recent Terrorist attacks aimed at the U.S.; of course, a primary reason there are Terrorist attacks aimed at the U.S. is because we continue to kill Muslim civilians around the world, including in Afghanistan.  It’s a never-ending, self-perpetuating cycle:  we attack people in the Muslim world, causing Terrorist attacks aimed at the U.S., and then cite those episodes as a reason to further attack people in the Muslim world, etc.”

- Glenn Greenwald

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2010/05/14/too-clever-by-half/

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