Inherit The Wind, November 25 at 11:23 pm #

“This last post of yours was the MOST reasonable one you’ve posted.  But what
have you got against the Law? “

Nothing against the law.  Nothing at all.  I agree with you that we must insist on
enforcing the law.  I agree with you that if he is a POW, so what.  He can still
be dealt with under the law, just a different version, which works very well
itself.

But if he is truly a POW, he should be held until the end of hostilities.  The
principle here is that there is no need to have trials of any kind in the middle of
tensions and armed conflicts, as all it does it arouse and incite an enemy and
have the potential to leak info which is crucial to protecting the lives of the
current combatants. 

The time tested principle has been to hold POW’s until the armed conflict has
run its course, and all information can then come to the courtroom.  Trying a
POW in the middle of the hostilities leads to many, many risks. 

As uncomfortable as this discussion must be, it must come out.  Because what
the world, and primarily the deluded and deceived American citizen is not
understanding is the fact that there is a mutually declared armed conflict in
progress between the USA and its (so-called) allies and a loosely defined army
of combatants variously described in dozens of incomplete ways, but centered,
at least for this case, on Al Qaeda. 

If this situation gets any more out of control than it already is, (due in large
part to the constant bungling of the current cast of world leaders on all sides,
who have absolutely no idea what they are doing) the results could be
devastating. 

The badly conceived premature trial of KSM is just the latest evidence of this
bungling.  Whatever good can become of it pales in comparison to the
potential for inflaming tensions among the already totally confused factions on
both sides of this ill-conceived conflict. 

It is time to STOP everything and sort out the various grievances and find out
where the true motivations lie on all sides.  Pull back all troops from all
foreign soils, call an indefinite truce, let the factions go home and draw up a
list of their grievances and motivations, and then let an international court sort
out the differences. 

This is not an anti-Muslim stance.  It is a pro-Muslim stance.  It allows them to
come to grips with the radicals within their own ranks and to determine what
needs to be done with them.  It would also serve to save thousands of lives of
Muslims and others. 

STOP the premature trial of KSM by the imperialist, zionist American aggressor
minority.  It is being used as a tool to further incite Americans and Muslims to
continue a conflict which the overwhelming majorities do not want.

So I will restate my position and say that the Sunnis are conservatively 87% of
the worldwide Muslim population.

My only point was that they were by far the largest division.  Not sure why you
are crying so hard over 7 to 10 points.  As I said, I am not vilifying them, that
is in your imagination only.

What brings me to tears is your blatant bigotry, now being expressed in an absurd convoluting of the “link” between the Sunni’s and AlQaeda. It has been estimated that there are about thirty thousand members of AlQaeda, yet you use the fact of their Sunni belief to tar all one and a half billion Muslims. Intolerable much?

This is far from the first time you have shown your radical belief system, nor is it your first expression of hatred and bigotry. I may be (certainly am) rude to such as you, your hatreds have no place in civilized debate, or in this world for that matter. That you profess an ignorance of your hateful ideas and ideals doesnt surprise me at all.

People like you are flawed, and, fortunately, becoming fewer with each passing generation.

Dave:
Don’t take this the wrong way, but if you think you’ve been going about trying to make this an intelligent discussion then, to put it nicely, you are off on the wrong foot…‘way off!

This last post of yours was the MOST reasonable one you’ve posted.  But what have you got against the Law? 
IF this guy is legally a POW, then so be it. 
IF he’s legally only eligible for trial at the International Court, so be it.
IF he has been tortured in defiance of US Civil, and Military Law, and in breach of International Law, then there may be NO legal way to hold him. So be it.

We are either a nation of Law or a nation of personal wills.  If we are the latter than we are no different than Saddam Hussein.  I’d rather we be the former.

Inherit The Wind, November 25 at 8:23 pm #

“Let me reiterate my main point: You think New Yorkers are too dumb to
remember that THEY were the focus of the biggest killing in the USA since
Antietam during the Civil War.  You think they will be horn-swoggled by an
expensive lawyer making his name ‘cuz they’re just too dumb to render a just
judgment”.

Absolutely not ITW.  I do not consider New Yorkers dumb at all.  They have
some of the best people in the world, considering the size of that city.  I have
many relatives living there, and I was born and raised very close to the city.  If
it were left up to New Yorkers, KSM would be swinging from the George
Washington bridge.

My point is that a New York Jury may never have the chance to render a
judgement if it can be established that Al Qaeda declared war on the US, and
the US reciprocated and a state of armed conflict ensued. 

This is the classic definition of war.  You do not need two nations to satisfy the
Geneva Convention definition. 

If there is a state of armed conflict between two entities, the Geneva
Convention applies to all captured and detained.  The usual course of action is
to detain until the end of hostilities and then release.  If the actions of the
combatants could be considered criminal, then at the end of hostilities, 
international military tribunals are used rather than the regular justice system,
because it is understood that the detainees never had their rights read to them,
right to a lawyer, right to post bail, and they may have been subjected to
excessively hard interrogation techniques in search of hard intelligence.  These
reasons make it hard for a civilian justice system to work. 

It all comes down to whether lawyers can establish a state of armed conflict
existing between Al Qaeda and the USA at the time KSM was captured. 

I am not being a smart ass.  I read the documents.  I heard about the case
being prepared.  The lawyers could move for a dismissal and the judge could
very well agree.  And KSM would revert to POW status.  The jury just sits there
silent with nothing they can say. 

That is all I am saying.  I am throwing this out there for people to digest, to
read the Geneva Convention, to understand what is at stake, and to see that it
is very possible that a judge could throw this case right out.

But then I said, what if he should throw it out and doesn’t.  If we disregard the
Geneva Convention.  Could this come back to haunt us in some way later on.

I am trying to make this a legitimate discussion, but the intelligence of New
Yorkers and the exact percentage of the Sunni population is getting in the way
currently.  Neither of which cases do I have any argument about what you and
ardee are saying.  New Yorkers are smart, and Sunnis can be any percentage
ardee wants them to be.  It is not really pertinent to my points.

ardee, November 25 at 6:57 pm #

Dave said:  My stating the fact that Sunnis are 80% of worldwide Islam does
not, in any way, vilify them.

ardee said:  No it is an outright falsehood, as my link plainly showed. It seems
to me that you may not be a professional liar, perhaps you are really totally
insane.

My source actually said the Sunnis were 85% of islam worldwide, but it did not
count other sects than Shiite and Sunni, so I went to 80% to be conservative.

In going to Pew and CNN, I would have to adjust that up to 87% or more based
on October 2009 reporting.

So I will restate my position and say that the Sunnis are conservatively 87% of
the worldwide Muslim population. 

My only point was that they were by far the largest division.  Not sure why you
are crying so hard over 7 to 10 points.  As I said, I am not vilifying them, that
is in your imagination only. 

How come you are not commenting on any of the rest of the points in the
primary posts that I made.  The Sunni population was a very minor point, and I
could take it right off the table, and the rest of the points are still valid.

You attack, attack, attack, but there is never any substance.  I am looking to
debate the topics, not have endless arguments over the exact population of the
Sunni Muslims, who are mostly all very fine people, which I know to be true.

Dave:

Let me reiterate my main point: You think New Yorkers are too dumb to remember that THEY were the focus of the biggest killing in the USA since Antietam during the Civil War.  You think they will be horn-swoggled by an expensive lawyer making his name ‘cuz they’re just too dumb to render a just judgment.

It’s as simple as that.  You don’t trust your fellow Americans to be jurors.  This means you don’t trust the most fundamental of our freedoms: the right to be judged by your peers, not government officials.  No freedom you have means a damn thing if you can be arrested and jailed for exercising them without the right to a jury trial.

That’s all there is to it.

My stating the fact that Sunnis are 80% of worldwide Islam does not, in any
way, vilify them. 

No it is an outright falsehood, as my link plainly showed. It seems to me that you may not be a professional liar, perhaps you are really totally insane.

I will put it into the conversation at this time though, that when anyone makes
a degrading statement about Christians or Jews, that person is not castigated
with the same vigor.  I wonder why that is?  Look at some of the threads
relating to the Christian religion and see some of the hatred spewed out
towards that religion.  Why don’t you attack those people the say way you do
someone who makes an honest statement that Sunnis are 80% of Islam
worldwide?  Please answer that, if you don’t mind.

I have “attacked” those who lie, those who distort and those who post bigotry in all its forms. You have no discernible grasp of reality that I can find, sorry to note. Just saying something is true does not make it so, you are increasingly a very odd duck.

ardee, November 25 at 1:40 pm

“as in your crap about Sunnis being 80% of the population of Islam in order to
vilify one hundred percent of that religion”

Besides calling me names like pompous ass, try and come up with a fact or two
yourself. 

My stating the fact that Sunnis are 80% of worldwide Islam does not, in any
way, vilify them.  I would agree with anyone who was to say that 99% of Sunni
as well as Shiite Muslims are probably very honest, honorable people.  They,
like Christians are regularly categorized by the vocal extreme minorities of their
religion. 

I will put it into the conversation at this time though, that when anyone makes
a degrading statement about Christians or Jews, that person is not castigated
with the same vigor.  I wonder why that is?  Look at some of the threads
relating to the Christian religion and see some of the hatred spewed out
towards that religion.  Why don’t you attack those people the say way you do
someone who makes an honest statement that Sunnis are 80% of Islam
worldwide?  Please answer that, if you don’t mind. 

In your hurry to scream insults towards anyone who puts forth ideas you do not
like, you do not even bother to comprehend the nature or meaning of the ideas
put forth. 

I would appreciate it if you would comment as to what, if any of the ideas or
statements made in my previous posts, are lies or deception, or are outside of
the realm of legitimate opinion. 

Try to learn to attack and counter with rational discussion the ideas put forth,
and stay away from just calling everyone blind, stupid, and ignorant just
because you disagree. 

I am not that knowledgeable, and I am not afraid to have my ideas countered
by legitimate debate, which is the way that I attempt to become more
knowledgeable.  But if every time I say something, all I hear is “you are an
ignorant pompous ass”  how does that advance the topic or add to the
discussion.  How do people learn from those types of responses? 

Please wake up to your own deficiencies, and try to quit judging everyone else
who disagrees with you.

DaveZx3, November 25 at 10:57 am

I cannot help but wonder if you are as blind as your words indicate you to be. You make stupid statements, ones that might be called lies in fact, as in your crap about Sunnis being 80% of the population of Islam in order to vilify one hundred percent of that religion and then, when exposed, babble on with meaningless drivel about how knowledgeable you are and how we persecute you with reality….

My goodness you become a pompous ass.

Ouroborus, November 25 at 10:47 am #

“When one finds themselves in a hole, logic/intelligence
dictates; stop digging.”

Little gems of wisdom thrown out there for lack of real understanding of ideas
and legitimate debate. 

When one is building a very, very large building, one needs a very, very large
hole, so logic and intelligence dictates to keep digging until the hold is large
enough to fit the foundation which is required.

Big deal, we both said stupid little things which have little, if anything to do
with the subject at hand.  I suppose we should feel real intelligent and fulfilled
now. 

Does anyone know how to have a real conversation about a real subject
anymore, or is it just all little sound bites, bottles full of air, clouds without
water.  Little nothings thrown out there as if that is what constitutes discussion.

DaveZx3, November 24 at 9:25 pm #

When one finds themselves in a hole, logic/intelligence
dictates; stop digging. 

Ardee and ITW have somehow decided to replace reading comprehension with
name calling and mockery of ideas they cannot begin to understand,
apparently.

1.  Nothing which I am posting on these last few posts is my opinion of what is
true.  I am stating how a defense lawyer would look at this case and attempt to
defend it, not how I look at it.  Are you guys capable of seeing that in the
words I have written?

2.  The reason these ideas are coming forth, is because they have great weight
and validity, not because I say them, but because others who are paid big
bucks to understand this stuff say them, and I just pass it along as opinion to
be entered into a discussion of this subject.  Why are you so afraid of seeing
the ideas of others who believe different things in print?  You instantly lash out
in that same old manner, as though you do not have any real ability to
comprehend these ideas or defend your own ideas rationally.  I guess it does
not take much intelligence to call everyone who disagrees with you a bigot, and
it must feel really good to do it, I imagine. 

3.  In your haste to blame me for being a bigoted, hate monger, you failed to
address the main point of my posts.  Al Qaeda declared war on the US prior to
911.  The US took up armed hostilities against them and their perceived
supporters.  This became the Geneva Convention classic definition of war. 
“Two or more non-congruous entities engaging in armed conflict against each
other”.    Anyone captured during this conflict becomes a Prisoner of War, to be
held until the end of hostilities.  And then usually released, or if crimes were
committed, they can be tried under IMT’s (International military tribunals). 
New York Juries have no jurisdiction in cases of “war”.  At least that is what will
be argued.

4.  The danger of letting the trial proceed after this argument has been entered
is that the “other side” will have reason to ignore the Geneva Convention also,
(not that they follow it that much anyway).  But they could attempt to make a
point.  If the US can disregard it, we can disregard it.  They will attempt to
capture US troops to show what happens when they disregard the laws
pertaining to prisoners of war.  Except they will show the videos. 

5.  One of the reasons no one could figure out what to do with Gitmo or the
detainees is due to exactly these reasons.  The US has painted itself into a
corner, and it will be extremely difficult to get out.  Some serious thought by
some real smart people best be brought to bear before some loose cannons
cause even more damage than has already been done.

If you want to debate these subjects, fine.  But try to refrain from the usual
name calling when you get totally confused by the subject matter.

To Inherit the wind

I think you are seeing the Islam problem, a little to light hearted, its a migration not only of people but also of an dogmatic way of thinking who is hostile to us in general.

We in Europe who have now an daily contact with this people, and I don’t want to generalice, I have friends under them, very good friends, who tell me that er is a very big group of people, who just out of hate and jalousy want to harm us, they are afraid of our way of living, who is so easy going and with not that deep going moral with it looks for them, their is no morality at all, enfin they can not understand that you can live with persenal ethics, and self dicipline, it will take some time before they can and will understand this.

Goodness knows, ITW we disagree on a myriad of issues and solutions. But it is heartwarming to know that, when confronted by a bigoted hater, however civil his words may seem, we are firmly united against such hatred.

I wonder, do you think Dave honestly thinks his politics is not a festering sore?

DaveZx3, November 24 at 9:25 pm #

My comments about Sunnis was not meant to be anything but a subtle effort to link Al Qaeda with a large number of people, inferring that a certain percentage of that large number must support them. 
****************************************************

There’s nothing “subtle” here.  You are trying to get people to think that because there is this tiny minority that engages in these obscene actions that we should suspect that ALL Muslims, particularly Sunnis, favor these actions.

****************************************************
I do not state the number, nor will the lawyers, because that is not what they do.  They throw language out there to create an image which sways a jury one way or the other.  It is all in the image that they can create.
****************************************************

As you are trying to “create an image” of masses of Muslims bent on sending their children as suicide bombers to blow us all up.  You won’t say a number either because a true number is infinitesimally small and a significant number would be plainly false.

**************************************************
If you were the jury, ardee, you would have helped the defense lawyers, because you immediately jumped into your hate routine.  If I were the lawyer, you just played right into my hands.  Of course you hate me, I represent my client who is at war with you, therefore my client cannot get a fair trial.  Move to dismiss.  Case dismissed.
***************************************************

I have NO idea WTF you are talking about except you SEEM to be saying that any jury would be too biased to convict….and that’s in New York City where THE WORLD TRADE CENTER WAS DESTROYED!  I love these crazy neo-cons who think New Yorkers are SO liberal they forget 9/11 happened in the heart of THEIR CITY!

It didn’t happen in a red state. It didn’t happen in “middle America” or “flyover states”.  It happened right in the heart of New York—25 miles from my home in NJ—and not one damn person in New York, New Jersey or Connecticut will EVER forget that.

***************************************************
I think an idiot could win this case for the defense.  It is almost a no brainer.  A good defense lawyer could have these jurors spinning in their chairs.
***************************************************

I repeat, not in New York City, pal.  They are to find it IMPOSSIBLE to find anyone who a) didn’t lose a friend or loved one or b)doesn’t know someone who lost a friend or loved one.  I personally know 4.  A kid in my kid’s elementary school lost his dad.  A friend of mine was right under the 2nd plane when it hit.

Just because the dumb GOP sheeple buy everything Rush and Sean and Glenn tell them doesn’t mean EVERYBODY does.  And New Yorkers are the most skeptical people on Earth.

***************************************************
Besides, Al Qaeda does not have to have a large number of members, nor to they have to be endorsed by any nation.  A state of war requires neither.  A very small organization might be just part of a larger organization which is at war, but even that is not required. [
****************************************************

I’m glad you admit you’re not a lawyer because you’d be a lousy one.  You know almost as little about international law as Sarah Palin.

*****************************************************
Read my previous post again.  The case cannot go anywhere, except in the mind of naive dreamers.
****************************************************

Why? did you somehow change it to have it make sense?

I am not spreading hate.  I am discussing how the defense will argue in this case. 

My comments about Sunnis was not meant to be anything but a subtle effort to link Al Qaeda with a large number of people, inferring that a certain percentage of that large number must support them.  I do not state the number, nor will the lawyers, because that is not what they do.  They throw language out there to create an image which sways a jury one way or the other.  It is all in the image that they can create. 

If you were the jury, ardee, you would have helped the defense lawyers, because you immediately jumped into your hate routine.  If I were the lawyer, you just played right into my hands.  Of course you hate me, I represent my client who is at war with you, therefore my client cannot get a fair trial.  Move to dismiss.  Case dismissed. 

I think an idiot could win this case for the defense.  It is almost a no brainer.  A good defense lawyer could have these jurors spinning in their chairs. 

Besides, Al Qaeda does not have to have a large number of members, nor to they have to be endorsed by any nation.  A state of war requires neither.  A very small organization might be just part of a larger organization which is at war, but even that is not required. 

Read my previous post again.  The case cannot go anywhere, except in the mind of naive dreamers.

Al Qaeda is a fundamentalist Sunni movement calling for global jihad.  Sunnis
comprise moe than 80% of Islam.  Sunnis are spread out across the world.
*************************************************

“figures don’t lie but liars figure” is how the saying goes.

This may be truly one of the most disgusting arguments I’ve seen presented on TD. Here’s the 900lb gorilla in the room you missed, Shyster: there is no connection establishing that 80% of Islam (the Sunnis) support Al Qaeda—hell, even the Taliban now treats Al Qaeda as persona non grata and the Taliban is as extremist as ANY sect among the Sunnis.

By YOUR analogy, Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, the Oklahoma City bombers represent ALL of Protestant Christianity.  Or Nahida with her nonsense that the Lubuvitcher Chasids represent ALL Jews in the world.

Or maybe that the Weatherman represented all anti-War protesters in the late 60’s and early 70’s.

Al Qaeda is a tiny splinter sect off of the radical Wahabi school on the very right wing of Sunni thinking.

“Al Qaeda is a fundamentalist Sunni movement calling for global jihad.  Sunnis
comprise moe than 80% of Islam.  Sunnis are spread out across the world.”

Oh “Lawyer” Dave, you try so hard to spread hatred. I feel for your failures, yes I do:

http://www.religion-cults.com/Islam/islam5.html

- The “Sunnis”,  followers of Abu, the majority, with 800 million Muslims.

  - The “Shiites”,  followers of Ali, with 100 million Muslims (Iran, Iraq, Palestine).

The fact of the matter, bigotry and hatred aside, is that AlQaeda is a mere fraction of a percentage of all the followers of Islam, most of whom reject their agenda and their methods. While some individuals in some govts. might be partisan, no govt. itself joins with the aims of that group. You are playing a losing hand here.

Obviously, I am not a lawyer.  I was saying that as a lawyer, I would argue a
certain way.  I do not say all these circumstances are identical. 

I am saying that the following is a legitimate argument that I would put forth,
and I welcome anyone to point out exactly what points are untrue. 

Al Qaeda is a fundamentalist Sunni movement calling for global jihad.  Sunnis
comprise moe than 80% of Islam.  Sunnis are spread out across the world. 

In 1996, al-Qaeda announced its jihad to expel foreign troops and interests
from what they considered Islamic lands. Bin Laden issued a fatwa,[54] which
amounted to a public declaration of war against the United States of America
and any of its allies. 

The United States of America has reciprocated, attempting to root out and kill
Al Qaeda operatives. 

A state of armed conflict has been in place between the two entities of Al
Qaeda and the US since 1991, at least. 

A very well accepted definition of war is:  “reciprocated, armed conflict between
two or more non-congruous entities”   

The Geneva convention extends rights to those captured in times of “armed
conflict”, which the US is obligated to uphold. 

KSM is technically a POW, and as such, has committed no crimes significantly
different than the pilots of Japanese kamikaze planes in the Pearl Harbor attack
which drew the US into WWII.    As a soldier, KSM attacked the enemy during a
time of war.

Gitmo was operated as a POW camp.  None of the detainees were tried
because you do not try POW’s.  You hold them until the end of hostilities.

This is the defense strategy.  It could be laid out in one afternoon, and a
motion filed for a mistrial based on no jurisdiction based on the Geneva
Convention.  The facts are self-evident an well documented.  Maybe a few
witnesses would have to be called to describe the extent of the armed conflict
as pertains to US efforts to invade or manipulate various Muslim countries. 
The jury would be helpless to bring any verdict, since they would clearly have
no jurisdiction at the end of this argument. 

As many truth-diggers have stated, KSM will be found justified in his attack on
the US during a time of war.  He will return to POW status and hero status.

Excuse me Dave, Esquire, but what country attacked us on 9/11?  (and let’s put aside, for the moment the wild claims that it was Israel or the CIA and at least PRETEND it was the 19 guys on those planes).

As far as I remember, it was Al Qaeda, which is NOT a nation, not a country and acted without necessarily any real knowledge by the Taliban, its host.  While it was clear the Taliban leaders under Sheik Omar approved of the attack, the unintended consequences (their being driven from power) has since clearly poisoned that relationship.

Your expertise on WWII as a lawyer shows you are no historian. Otherwise you would have noticed several distinct differences between the crimes prosecuted at Nuremberg and the charges against KSM.

1) It should be blatantly obvious that at Nuremberg, the court was an international tribunal, not an American court, whether military or civilian.
2) The defendants were Europeans, being tried in Europe, for crimes against other Europeans, committed in Europe.  The USA was not, per se, prosecuting the case, merely sending representatives to the prosecution to work with other nationals.
3) KSM is a non-American (OK that’s the same), being tried in the USA, for crimes against American citizens and residents, committed in the USA, by a US court.

The legal parallels between Nuremberg and KSM’s trial are virtually non-existent.  Beyond “he did something really bad” there’s almost nothing in common with the trials after WWII.

As a lawyer, I would argue that KSM represents a political organization which
acts as an alliance of aggrieved subjects of US aggression against Muslim
nations.  I would also argue that if the US had not interfered in the
governments of these nations, the leadership of said nations would have been
clearly signing onto the support of said political alliance.

Having emerged from the rabbit hole of “Lawyer Dave’s world” I wonder at his blithe assumptions of Iraq, for example, subscribing to the politics of AlQaeda, or the Taliban. As the Ba’athists were socialist,not extreme islamist, and as Hussein refused to allow the presence of AlQaeda within that nation, Daves claim seems flimsy at best.

Afghanistan , while ruled by the Taliban, hosted AlQaeda to be certain, but no such linkage or sympathies are known to this day. Taliban spokesmen claim they extended hospitality to a guest as precribed by muslim law and further say they knew nothing whatever of the plans or schemes of those guests. One might refuse to believe such statements but one should have at least a shred of proof to back up said rejection.

Having said all that I find myself in partial agreement with “Lawyer Dave” in that the five defendants should not be subjected to the death penalty. Firstly I abhor said penalty on several grounds, and secondly, the evidence supplied by Germany was handed over with the proviso that no such penalty be enacted.

Ouroborus, November 24 at 1:03 pm

I read the history again.  I stand by all my statements.  All trials of WWII major war criminals were tried under the IMT (International Military Tribunal) in Europe and the Far East. 

The bombings of London and Pearl Harbor were not considered war crimes, even though America was not at a state of war with Japan at the time of their attack. 

If you are going to challenge my comments, you will have to state your specific objection to each one with some facts.  Just saying, “Kindly shut up until you become educated with your own history” is not helpful.  Tell me exact statements which are incorect. 

I am not young.  I am a good

DaveZx3, November 24 at 9:55 am #
You must be young; because you have understood
incorrectly. You are commenting way above your pay
grade. Kindly shut up until you become educated with
your own history. As an attorney you fail utterly.

wildflower, November 24 at 2:04 am #

“But like Timothy McVeigh, these men do not represent a country. They only
represent themselves and their personal political and/or religious ideology.  If
the evidence shows these particular individuals are responsible for the tragic
events of 9/11, they should be punished accordingly.”

Timothy McVeigh was a US citizen and no state of war existed between him or
anyone he represented and the US of America.

As a lawyer, I would argue that KSM represents a political organization which
acts as an alliance of aggrieved subjects of US aggression against Muslim
nations.  I would also argue that if the US had not interfered in the
governments of these nations, the leadership of said nations would have been
clearly signing onto the support of said political alliance.  But since the US has
propped up dictators and pro-US puppets, these nations were not free to
support the political alliances which truly represent them.  Further, if put to a
populist vote, it would be clear that said political alliance does represent the
views of the citizens of these nations, which is that the US and Israel has been
waging war against them for years. 

Thus, KSM is a soldier of Islam, and is a Prisoner of War, and must be held until
the end of hostilities and then released.

Ouroborus, November 24 at 1:55 am #

“That is clearly wrong. There were trials after the war
and men hung for those crimes. The U.S. had to agree
not to try the Emperor before the Japanese surrendered.
Your history is wrong as is your legal advice”

Yes, I agree,, there were trials for very high leadership who gave orders for,
and certain rank and file who committed specific acts that were clearly not acts
of war, such as as camps for the the purpose of genocide against non-
combatants.  But check again, were these criminal trials under the constitution
of the United States of America?  I don’t think so.  I could be wrong, and I will
do some digging to make sure, but that is the way I have understood the
history of it. 

I do know that German pilots never went to trial for bombing the hell out of
London.  Nor did the US pilots that dropped the atomic bombs on Nagasaki
and Hiroshima go on trial.  Nor did the Japanese Navy go on trial for Pearl
Harbor.  Here again, my reading of this history was many years ago, and I will
have to do some more reading, possibly, but that is the way I remember it.

So I am saying that certain acts that fall within the context of declared war,
whether by a single country or by a alliance of countries, cannot be tried as
criminal activities, especially if those acts can be attributed to be in response to
acts committed against said countries, alliances, or even religions. 

I still think that if the KSM lawyers can show that the US acted in a warlike
manner towards countries of Islam, then political alliances that chose to strike
back by bombing or otherwise destroying targets of a strategic nature can be
justified as being POW’s carrying out legitimate acts of war, not unlike fairly
similar acts which have been carried out in many instances and not tried in
civilian courts. 

So, if I was a KSM lawyer, I would be asking for a lot of information about why
the US carried on the way it did against Muslim countries, and the direction of
the trial would have to go first to whether or not the US was committing acts of
war against those countries.  If the answer is yes, then an alliance of those
countries who chose to strike back in an act which will be called “war” would
result in KSM being found a Prisoner of War.  In which case, I would demand he
be held as a POW until the end of hostilities and then released. 

This is why I think the whole thing is a bad idea.  It will have to bring up a
situation which will explore the potential pretense that the US and Israel are at
war with ISLAM, and ISLAM is at war with the US and Israel. 

This seems to be undeniable, and would certainly have the potential for
ramping up the current level of aggression on all sides.  Who gains from that? 

Of course, if KSM lawyers are not allowed to go there, the trial will not be
considered “fair” and will be a failure on that account.  This is a lose, lose
situation.

Re DaveZx3: “If I were the lawyers for KSM, I would just say in court that KSM did nothing different than the Japanese did in 1941, Pearl Harbor.”

But like Timothy McVeigh, these men do not represent a country. They only represent themselves and their personal political and/or religious ideology.  If the evidence shows these particular individuals are responsible for the tragic events of 9/11, they should be punished accordingly.

DaveZx3, November 24 at 12:47 am #
There was no criminal trial after the war was over.  It
was not a
criminal act, it was an act of war.
=========================================
That is clearly wrong. There were trials after the war
and men hung for those crimes. The U.S. had to agree
not to try the Emperor before the Japanese surrendered.
Your history is wrong as is your legal advice.

wildflower, November 23 at 10:22 pm #

“Exactly what is wrong with having a justice system that provides a trial, access
to counsel, access to evidence, a judge, and a jury to decide upon the guilt or
innocence of someone who is accused of a crime?”

Nothing is wrong with everything you say above.  The problem is that war that
is declared for a cause does not fall under criminal activity.  It does not fall
under the criminal code.  As strange as it may sound, you cannot be tried for
killing the enemy in an act of war, even if they are not military.  That is why
soldiers do not read Miranda rights to enemy soldiers that they capture. 
Captured POW’s do not have the same rights that criminals have, they have
Geneva convention rights, which are completely different.  It is not criminally
illegal to attack a target of the enemy which provides the enemy with the
resources to continue to fight the war.  You can bomb factories, oil depots,
military targets, etc.  You can take out their communications targets, their
financial institutions, transportation targets, etc.  Almost anything but schools,
hospitals, and other completely non-strategic targets. 

If I were the lawyers for KSM, I would just say in court that KSM did nothing
different than the Japanese did in 1941, Pearl Harbor.  They (Japanese)
declared war on the US and attacked unilaterally, killing thousands of military
and civilians.  There was no criminal trial after the war was over.  It was not a
criminal act, it was an act of war.  Two completely different things with two
completely different remedies.  When you mix the two you get very bad
results. 

The civil justice system will have a very hard time dealing with the case if the
subject of jihad comes up.  There has been much said about the fact that
there are many Islamic factions which consider themselves to be at war with
both the US and Israel.  If these points come out, the criminal justice system is
dead in its tracks. 

It is risky and amateurish to attempt to bring justice in this manner.  POW’s
are usually held for the duration of a war and then just released.  That is the
way it works.  KSM will insist to be held for the duration of the war and then
released.    If an attempt is made to say that he committed an act of terror, KSM
lawyers will bring up US crimes, which are apparently well documented all over
these types of threads.  And they will attempt to compare and contrast US
crimes to KSM crimes and say, “what is the difference”?  The criminal justice
system will be dead in its tracks.  It cannot deal with that type of defense.

If KSM lawyers can insist that KSM considered his group to be at war with the
US and Israel because of unjust acts by the US and Israel, then they can insist
that he be considered a Prisoner of War, and if that strategy works, which it
will, the case is over.  He will not be found guilty.  He will not walk, but he will
have to kept as a POW until the end of the war at taxpayer expense, and then
freed.

It’s hard to understand Holder’s critics. Exactly what is wrong with having a justice system that provides a trial, access to counsel, access to evidence, a judge, and a jury to decide upon the guilt or innocence of someone who is accused of a crime?  I thought this kind of system was something that America supported.  Clearly, it’s not perfect, but we are attempting to be fair. 

Timothy McVeigh was someone who was also accused of terrorist activities, but I don’t recall any of Holder’s critics having much to say about his trial.  McVeigh also tried to use his trial as a political platform in an effort to justify his actions. People listened to what he had to say, but in the end it didn’t change the bottom line. The evidence showed that McVeigh was responsible for killing hundreds of innocent men, women and children and he was found guilty – end of story.

“The uproar is really about the word war. Outrage is being voiced by those who worry that Holder and President Barack Obama are abandoning the Bush-era doctrine of a “war on terrorism” that must at all times be conducted by military means.”

You are getting warm, Mr. Robinson.

Pentagon budget 2001 to present:

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/forever-war/

“I say bring it on.”

Are you sure, Mr. Robinson?

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/the-rest-is-silence/

I am so sorry, that we are so far away, from the Time of Easyrider, what a great feeling,

Born to be wild live to outgrow it
Geth your motor runnin head out on the highway

Every day I am more nostalgic for this way of thinking, I want to be free, no nails in my brain.

Mr. Robinson:  Just a reminder:  “Bring it On!” is a phrase with some unfortunate connotations since Mr. Bush in his manner of strutting braggadocia used that phrase several times to invite disaster, as I recollect, in connection with his inevitably unsuccessful “wars on terror.”  Unfortunately the countries the wars were and are being waged upon are angrier than before the wars began, and we ourselves are much more fearful.
  Though we wish it may be otherwise, it is possible that this trial, wherever and however it is held, will prove to cause more anger and fear. This is not to say that it should not be held, but public anger and public fear are both poisonous.  They create a climate in which justice and revenge are quite apt to become indistinguishable. A high degree of individual self-control is called for and I hope we have it in us to rise to the occasion, especially since, so far at least, media have shown few signs of discretion.  Again, I hope I am wrong.

a cartoonist who got the war figured out.

http://www.mattbors.com/archives/579.html

Once again, Gene is saying one thing out of one corner of his mouth, then contradicting himself out the other.  If we demonstrating that our ‘justice’ system is not just for us, they need to set all these cats free.  All these guys ought to be set free under my view of our legal system.  Suggesting a rigged trial is going to prove anything is delusional.  Either set them free, or lock them up in some Kansas outcropping.  I’m still laughing that they turn some of these guys into super terrorists, as if single-handedly they will come back and destroy us.  They are just men, men who hate us, who can blame them.  I would hate us too if I were them, wouldn’t you?

Religious wars are always the bloodiest; this religious war is only just beginning.

It’s not a battle of ideologies, or of ideas, or of ideals. But rather the Islamic revolution, is about the decline of the west at the hands of ideologies that have weakened the west socially and morally.

Those same ideologies that have been convenient to the dominant political structures of the west, controlled and operated by the corporations. 

They have gutted the America, while the nations put forward as the new economic centers of World trade; see no interest in pursuing wars in Iraq or Afghanistan.

As Western Europe continues to import workers from the third world due its own population collapse, car riots like the ones recently seen in France could explode to become an outright take over, with dramatic gains for Islamic law in Europe.

Trying a religious fundamentalist in US courts is really just a show, it’s a little like burning a witch at the stake. But failure to understand, why our own culture is collapsing, due to the severe and intractable social issues of our population, only means that we have some very hard lessons to learn. 

Seventy five percent of children in the United States are too obese to join the military, this along with endemic drug addiction, and psychiatric illness, gives us a disadvantage, one that will be telling over the next 30 to 40 years of this war.

DaveZx3, November 22 at 9:42 am #

“On the other hand, we need to show the world that our system of justice is clean, untainted and fair to all who are brought before it”

Funny, I was just reading a report that says up to 45% of inmates on death row may have been framed.

Inherit nailed it I believe. I would add that the alternative to a trial in an open court is a trial by a military tribunal, far from a way to assure the world of “fairness”. As ITW noted, while our court system and police methods have led to the conviction of many innocent people ( another great reason to eliminate the death penalty, another issue entirely),the spotlight would be on this trial , assuring that no such thing as Dave notes does indeed happen far too often will happen here.

DaveZx3, November 22 at 2:19 am #

That is not the point.  The point is that KSM will become a media star and his hero status will be magnified amongst the radical Muslim element dedicated to the eradication of Jews, Christians and atheists, and all other non-Muslim ideas. 
***************************************************

I LOVE IT!  Jaded, old Inherit The Wind is…“naive”!  For once I understand why Tao Walker describes himself as “this old savage”!

I’m afraid this is one of those rare black-and-white situations: Either you believe the American justice system CAN work when serious attention is paid to it, or you don’t.

The alternative to a fair trial is a phony show trial like they just had in Iran, and sentenced 5 people to be executed for “inciting” protests against the cooked election.

“On the other hand, we need to show the world that our system of justice is clean, untainted and fair to all who are brought before it”

Funny, I was just reading a report that says up to 45% of inmates on death row may have been framed.

It seems the subject of the report was that the justice system has come to rely almost soley on testimony of criminal insiders in exchange for immunity from prosecution or more lenient sentencing. 

It went on to say that the criminals have caught on, and will frame each other for their own immunity, even making up crimes that were never committed.  It also said that some will buy information about crimes, real or fictional, from those who apparently make a living digging up or making up information and selling it.  The crime can then be reported to authorities in exchange for leniency in ones own criminal prosecutions.  It told the story of some innocent people who got caught up in these schemes and spent long periods in jail. 

It told about how police can get search warrants quickly and easily just by giving a name of someone who witnessed a so-called crime.  Apparently it is easier than having to come up with the real evidence yourself.  Testimony by name of witness, real or not, on a paper is justification for an immediate unquesstioned warrant.  Also reported that police often pay someone to give that testimony. 

With reports like that out there, I hope you all are right, that a trial can be pulled off without all the three-ring antics usually associated with trials of this magnitude.  Somehow, I think it is America which will be on trial, and I will believe it even more if and when I hear that it will all be televised, day by nauseating day.

That is not the point.  The point is that KSM will become a media star and his hero status will be magnified amongst the radical Muslim element dedicated to the eradication of Jews, Christians and atheists, and all other non-Muslim ideas.

The radical Islamists need no media star to further their cause, nor do any who use a perversion of their religion to justify murder. On the other hand, we need to show the world that our system of justice is clean, untainted and fair to all who are brought before it. Using civilian courts rather than a military tribunal will certainly enhance our image world wide. Goodness knows we need that rather badly.

American hater; hater of America. How can one hate a
country? It’s geography. In my travels, and they’re
considerable, I’ve found people really don’t hate
“Americans”, but they sure don’t like it’s
governments policies. Most foreigners (I can’t think
of an exception) smile when they find out I’m an
American and I’ve never been verbally (or physically)
assaulted because of it. But I’m the first to state
my great displeasure at my governments policies in
general because most are blatantly self serving to
the detriment of those countries we have a
relationship with.
With a few exceptions I have found foreigners to be
far more knowledgeable of the world in general than
my fellow citizens.
I think when most people go on rants against America
they just fail to clearly articulate that they really
mean the government. That said; I do hold my fellow
citizens responsible for our predicament more than
they allow for themselves. We’ve really become our
own worst problem.

Hi Samson,

Yeah, I noticed what you’re saying and thought the same thing the first time I read it. 

But when I read it again I gave Mr. Robinson the benefit of the doubt and assumed he was not stating his personal view but merely pointing out that the far right thinks the views are absurd and extreme. 

I dunno if this trial is really that important.

I know it will be a media circus. 

I know it will piss people off all across the spectrum. 

It may even be fair.

But I’m not sure it will have an impact on US foreign policy, energy policy and economic policy. 

DaveZx3, I liked the way you wrote.  And I agree with you that there are bad people in the world who are dedicated to the eradication of just about anyone who disagrees with them. 

But I think there are plenty of those kinds of people on just about any continent in the world.

Any religion, any nation has people who want to kill others. 

The bottom line is your religion is only as violent as you are. 

Violent people look for excuses to commit violence.

We will always have to be vigilant. 

I’m not an American hater. I like this country very much, thank you. It’s given me a good life. 

But it has been in a perpetual state of war since 1941.  We’ve constantly been overthrowing countries, saturating the world with small arms, and propping up corrupt capitalist governments. 

That’s what I think is important to change. If we changed our energy policy, our foreign policy, our economic policy then at least moderates in the Muslim world—and there are plenty out there, just as there are plenty of moderate Christians—would eye us much more favorably. 

As it stands now, it’s not just that our enemies can see the west “has a long history of exploiting the Muslim world. We occupy Muslim lands to steal their resources. We install corrupt lackeys as their rulers.”

It’s anyone who’s looking at the world realistically. 

We’ve screwed them royally and repeatedly. 

And we’ve screwed ourselves in the process, which as a general rule is usually unpleasant. 

Anytime you’re fighting people who are shooting at you with your own weapons and fighting you with the tactics you taught them—well, you need to rethink your policies. 

The fact that Mr. Robinson feels comfortable using the phrase “war of ideas” shows that he comes from a society that makes war on damn near anything:

* Ideas
* Poverty
* Drugs
* Peace
* Even its own culture

Mr. Robinson was born and raised—as we all were—in a country that is in a state of perpetual war and is geared economically to always be at war. 

That’s not good. 

We will be in a much better place when we get to the peace of ideas and the word war fades from our lexicon.

Sure we will always have to stand up to Hitlers when they arise.

But the problem is since the 1950s we’ve been creating Hitlers, not fighting them. 

I believe Mr. Robinson made that point, albeit subtly, in the column above.

If he didn’t, he should have. 

“It’s up to you not to heed to the call-up.
I don’t wanna kill.
It’s up to you not to heed the call-up
I don’t wanna die.”

—The Clash

Ahhhh, NYC has been a well known target for terrorist attacks since ‘93. So why didn’t these Repugs bear that in mind in ‘01?
Don’t bother trying to scare me with what might happen, when your party is the ones who let it happen again in ‘01?
Most disgusting is listening to Rudy spew his crap after he put Emergency HQ back in the building that had been blown up in ‘93. Then wasted money (and ultimately blood) on a defective communication s systems. Can you charge a former Mayor with Malpractice, Reckless endangerment, Indifference to Life? A crime is a crime regardless of intent.

Inherit The Wind, November 22 at 12:51 am #

“And buried in all this manure are the voice of Ardee, Outraged and C.D.Dillon, who seem to be the ONLY ones who actually believe that the American justice system can work”.

Naive post.  No one is questioning whether the American system can work.  The OJ trial was proof that it can work exactly the way the lawyers want it to work.

That is not the point.  The point is that KSM will become a media star and his hero status will be magnified amongst the radical Muslim element dedicated to the eradication of Jews, Christians and atheists, and all other non-Muslim ideas. 

If KSM comes across as a rational, just person,  reacting in self defense to the injustice of the imperialist, conservative, fundamentalist, fascist, pro-Israel, anti-Muslim American, oil-guzzling capitalist system, then radical Islam will see a huge swelling in their ranks worldwide.

Justice is not even the issue at this point.  It is whether or not you want to put the spectacle of America/Israel vs Islam into the prime time tv schedule.  And if you want to do that, what is your motivation for it? 

Am I an alarmist?  I don’t think so.  Big trials have a way of turning into media circuses, where the people divide up and root their side to victory.  There are always rooters for the underdog, guilty or innocent. 

KSM’s guilt or innocence will not get in the way of America haters cheering everytime his legal team brings up his treatment or the crimes committed by America.  Of course the jihadists will be cheering every motion as well.  An unknown is what the reaction of the moderate Muslim population will be.

If you are an America hater, that is your prerogative.  It seems to be a pretty popular opinion as of late.  Now that we know that Americans are completely ignorant, the overthrow of the system is probably imminent anyway.

On the one hand we have the usual screamers that there’s no justice in the West anyway (implying that KSM should be freed out of hand) to the vile hateful bigots like the “FalseChristian” spouting Timothy McVeigh-type nonsense.

And buried in all this manure are the voice of Ardee, Outraged and C.D.Dillon, who seem to be the ONLY ones who actually believe that the American justice system can work.

I do. I think KSM CAN get a fair trial in NYC, may EVEN be able to win an acquittal based on his being tortured, but could also go to prison for life, or even to the needle.  It will take a strong, courageous judge who insists on intelligent, disinterested and rational jurors who will rule on what the FACTS are.

Frankly, it is more important for the rest of us, the 300,000,000 Americans that KSM gets a fair trial, regardless of whether he is judged guilty or innocent.  We forget that.  As William J. Brennan said to a reporter who asked him about “technicalities”:
“Shame on you! They are not ‘technicalities’. They are the fabric of OUR FREEDOM!”

Understanding that the civilized world must have justice (vengeance) in the case of KSM for his crimes against humanity (the talking monkeys with the brown stripe as opposed to the monkeys with the grey stripe) it is not easily understood why any one could be afraid of allowing this monkey his day in court. What do the good citizens of the empire have to fear from a barbarian that has already been locked in a cage and tortured? You say if we give this particular talking monkey a “fair trial” we will then have to fear suicide bombers at the shopping malls, kind of an oxymoron seeing what shape the economy is in. Even the Pulitzer Prize winning, outspoken author and proponent of social justice has this talking monkey hung before the trial. Now don’t take this wrong as far as murderous monkeys go they probably have captured one of the worst.

Along with this trial shouldn’t we look to John Negroponte, Oliver North and there connection to the death squads in Honduras and Nicaragua, lots of (talking monkeys) were killed there on behalf of the empire and its economic and political world saving democracy goals.

How about Chile, 3000, talking monkeys ore more were disappeared many more imprisoned. Spreading the gospel, democracy while stealing resources Jimmy Carter and Bush senior, their trials will be next right? Bill Clinton and junior Bush weren’t any better as far as emperors go. Thousands were killed on their watches respectively at home and abroad and their next inline right? How about the congress?

The point, if you really believe that you will be safe whether this talking monkey is tried in civil court or military court you need to take harder look at the religious war this empire is now waging, you will also need to take good look at the stress caused by the forever war the elitists of the world are engaged in. You should stop driving your car, breathing the air, drinking the water, and eating the food as these things will be more unsafe than a fair trial. Safety in this world is an illusion along many other beliefs. But then again this is America land of the brave and home of the illiterate.

trucrismas:

THERE IS NO god , YOU JUST KILLED HIM.

Thoughts:  Fundamentalisms of all kinds become popular in times of confusion, rapid change and lack of factual information.  It is a reaction, a falling back on belief systems that present certain ideas as “ordained by God” or “sanctioned by the majority” or any other agent that can be dragged in to present a semblance of authority, safety, security, protection.  Fundamentalism is not the stand of courage but the kneeling of subservience. The more popular it becomes, the less creative intelligence the society can call upon to solve its problems.  As the window narrows, the light decreases. 
  Hello.  There are people who have fresh ideas and resourceful access to possibilities.  How many of us are so tired of hating, of fearing, of killing, of starving children and of corporate or religious exploiters that we will form—sooner or later—a World Party for Human Service and give our voices and our lives to knowledge, humility, kindness, reconciliation and justice?

The trial of KSM will show how Al- Qaeda was a small group who scored the mother of all sucker punches on 9/11 . The military/industrial/corporate/media hyped the threat into the endless war on terror .
NYT poll on Sept.12,2001 showed 56% thought we would go to war . One week
later 85% thought we would go to war.Bush*s approval was 50% before 9/11.It
jumped to 80% after the attack.

“Everyone’s values are defined by what they will tolerate when it is done to others.”
(William Greider)

What horrible thing happened in this columnist’s childhood to make him so hateful?  What makes him so fearful? Not only is this cowardly malediction intellectually dishonest and lacking in principle, it appeals to the very worst nature of man, and exhibits an emotion akin to the Lord High Commissioners’ of the Spanish Inquisition justification of any barbarity toward those who question the prerogative of the lawless State, no matter how embarrassing as they are to our claims of being civilized or rational, any more than the alarmists and fear-mongers of the Alien and Sedition Acts, the Red Scare, the Chicken Littles of disturbing and unwarranted self-righteousness, the mouthpieces of every age who have sung the song of the oppressor ever were.  Are the verbal bludgeons, the endless echo of hate and falsehood, the half-truths which cheer the bully forward; are these as worthy of column-inches as those words and ideas which illuminate and empower, steer us toward Madison’s “better angels”, the more considerate man?  Is it enough to just have an opinion, no matter how twisted or baseless?  Is it the boy who cries wolf ever ignored?  Is the editorial attention so drawn to bottom-line market share that all pretense to civility, rationality or reasoned debate, or even the consideration of all the facts is so easily abandoned?  What happened to the notion of the benefit of the doubt, innocent until proven guilty? Is advocacy- journalism on a par with the rules of evidence? To be sure, I understand the anger that drips from this scribe’s execration.  Millions of us are angry with the decidedly anti-populist governments we’ve had to bear under both Democrats and Republicans.  There are many usurpations and outrages committed over decades, by politicians and their publicists who speak the language of populism, but step aside while the idea AND THE FACT of social responsibility is undone.  Even the very meager social safety-net for the poorest of OUR poor is too much for the Slave-master.  The social contract and compact that was the basis for the whole architecture of the burden of government in the first place notwithstanding, there as been a steady erosion and dismantling of the idea that we are all in this together, more alike than we are not despite what we are told, and the promotion of mindless obsession of I-me-mine as morally un-questionable.  We are encouraged to think only of ourselves and our fears (even those imagined by others), and to think of nothing else at all.  Millions of Americans have been thrown overboard by this regression, this undoing of the democratic protections against the utter rapaciousness of organized money, organized power, organized crime.  When the state acts as judge, jury, executioner and historian, who dares to tell the tale? Certainly not the court scribe! This column is irresponsible, in my view. It takes myth and ideology as unquestioned holy writ, and all that proceeds from it is, by definition, invalid, but worse, it advocates a course of action that is reactionary and cruel, runs counter to all things held to be moral and humane, and is, I believe, inflammatory for the sake of attention.  I see no notable difference between the fundamentalism which our state-designated enemies-du-jour must be brutally punished, and the zealotry for the red-white-and-blue God of State.
“There is no free lunch for the creature comforts delivered by the corporation. The ravaging of nature, the erosion of economic security, the destabilization of the family, the commercialization of all human relationships, the corruption of democracy, and the dissipation of spiritual meaning in the face of rampant materialism - these are all part of the cost of the corporate system as we know it. And they add up to a very high price to pay for the bounty of the great American shopping mall.”
(Charles Derber)

I think that the USA an compleet other federatiom of states and also much more democratic had become, as the Confederates had won.

To C.Curtis -Dillon please can you tell me where this place is on this planet, where you not are touched by the American politbeaurau world media.

I have made long voyages around the world in our boat, but I can tell you this media has very long fingers.

“In some battle situations, the only way to win, that is if you want to win for wathever the costs, root out and exterminate your enemy.

To give some excamples,Alexander the Great, The Romains, the Khans of the Tartaars “

——————————-
This of course is a very strange definition of ‘winning’.  You list the names of empires that have all fallen into oblivion.  Maybe its time to try a different idea, since that one didn’t seem to work very well.  After all, its not like Mongolia is a world power these days.  Maybe that didn’t work so well in the long run.

Ouroborus, November 20 at 11:30 pm #

“Actually, the terrorists have already won; look what they did to us; the damage on 9/11 is nothing, but the damage since is everything”

martin weiss, November 21 at 10:44 am

“These and other embarrassing facts could easily come to light in a fair trial”

Ouroborous correctly inferred that the US has already been beaten, and I think is now dying a slow, painful death.

Martin Weiss correctly inferred that the real goal of the trial of KSM is to put the US on trial so that all the embarassing facts can come out. 

I am sure it will all be televised, so that the whole world will be able to see just how bad the US is.

Expect to see what it is like to have suicide bombers at our malls and schools, just like they are elsewhere.  The United States has been finally torn down to the level of the rest of the world, all because we weren’t paying attention.  History will record that the US went down because of internal division, economic war, military war, and a completely overpowering, unrelenting enemy. 

The good news is, now that the US is defeated, the world can live in true peace.  For about ten minutes.

Opposition to a fair trial for accused terrorists is mainly from those who might have something to lose if the grounds for the accusation are brought to light.
For instance, there has never been any evidence linking Bin Laden to 9/11. Many of the accused are in the same legal limbo. Not enough evidence to convict or often, even to charge in a legal proceeding.
The fear is that dereliction of duty, lying to Congress and other violations by the Bush administration may finally be revealed.
Recently, a judge found the Army Corps of Engineers responsible for the Katrina disaster. But the fact hidden in that finding is that Bush cut the Corps maintenance budget $6 million just before Katrina struck, in order to spend the money invading Iraq. That saving of $6 million cost the US hundreds of billions in damages and thousands of lives, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives lost.
Students of history will discover that major media did not disclose the fact that Saddam offered to leave the country and surrender to the US Army, but Bush insisted on “Shock and Awe” and his Vice President’s former company made hundreds of billions from the invasion. After Cheney led Halliburton to buy W.R. Grace, the asbestos company, Halliburton needed the money and Cheney had a lot to make up for.
These and other embarrassing facts could easily come to light in a fair trial.

C.Curtis.Dillon, November 21 at 7:08 am #

Yup, you pretty well covered it. I as well, have had a
decade long view from afar; amazing isn’t it? It really
changes one’s world view.

v Do NOT feed the trolls!

TRUECRISTIAN, November 21 at 8:26 am #

I don’t see what George Bush has done wrong, he’s destroying a bunch of people who shouldn’t be in the 1st place.

*******************************

Yup. a true “C(h)RISTIAN” all right. I believe that this poster cannot see, I also note that he cannot even spell..Is this a typical voter?

In some battle situations, the only way to win, that is if you want to win for wathever the costs, root out and exterminate your enemy.

To give some excamples,Alexander the Great, The Romains, the Khans of the Tartaars and more of this kind, one big blitz krieg and its over, or we go on for ever with an smoldering little war, just till the time we the citizen have to start to kill our naburs and other people who are living by us, but not with us.

Ouroborus:

Unfortunately, I doubt it.  Sounds very right wing Christian to me.

Having lived outside of American corporate/media influence for several years (Eastern Europe) I find my worldview changing quite a bit.  I was pretty much a loyal citizen much of my life and now, after seeing my country from a very different point of view, I can say that although I’m still an American and love my country very much, we have been the 800 lb gorilla for far too long.  We tend to dominate any conversations and to demand our way no matter what the consequences.  Exploitation of a country’s natural wealth is very much exploitation of it’s people and culture.  And, unfortunately, an American corporation is seen as a direct extension of our government so their exploitation of a country is seen as being endorsed by our government.

In the Muslim world, especially Arabic countries, big oil has been the problem.  We have overthrown governments and propped up despotic regimes through the Arab world as a way of dominating the oil/gas they control.  We are not content to deal with any legitimate government as that might not give us enough control so we corrupt whomever is willing to work with us.  There are few legitimate governments in the Middle East as a result of years of messing with their political processes.  Even Iran, which one would think should be supportive of its people, is so paranoid about external interference that it has become as corrupt and abusive as the shah it replaced.

On the civil trials issue, I think this is exactly what we should do.  Yes, there are risks involved but we have to adhere to our laws and ways or the terrorists have won.  I have long believed the real goal of the attacks was not to bring down the country but to make us paranoid and to “wake the sleeping dragon” which would then lash out, irrationally, at any target it found.  If that was the intent, it has been a rousing success.  We went to war, twice, and shredded our constitution out of fear and panic.  We have shown the world our weakness and our brutality.  We have enabled many generations of new terrorists and given strength to the radical Islamists who want to wage holy war on the West.  It was a brilliant strategy.

TRUECRISTIAN, November 21 at 4:57 am #

You’re kidding; right?

Re: Samson

Regarding your comments:

”—The right-wing notion that we have to be fighting this militant and violent Islam.”

It is a FACT that a militant and violent Islam exists.  That is not a “right-wing” notion.  It’s counterpart is the “American Taliban” or extreme right fundamentalism.  Do you really believe that a violent and militant form of Islam doesn’t exist?

“That its the ‘enemy’s view of history’ that the west has been exploiting muslim lands and people. And that we install corrupt and lackey rulers in these lands.  The next paragraph calls this view ‘absurd’ and ‘obscene’.  Yes, I’m sure Exxon has always acted with the best interests of the natives at heart, and that profit was only a secondary idea.”

Here you confuse two separate issues, the Taliban’s and corrupt corporate entities.  The Taliban claims that we are there to corrupt “their country”, and when you consider the mantra of the American Taliban one might almost consider it valid.  The reality is, A FACTION in our country does in fact eschew this, and their mantra is one and the same as the Islamic Taliban, BOTH see their ideological tenets as SACROSANCT.

The issue of the control of resources is outside and immaterial to religious tenets (they could care less).  However, both sides of the religiously inflamed will easily fall prey to the TRUE intent of these corrupt entities.  They are not choosy…. and will pit BOTH RELIGIOUS FACTIONS against each other to achieve their ends.

“Mr. Robinson also tells us that a military tribunal is just as fair as a civilian trial by jury.”

With valid individuals in charge, it could be.  I’m not saying it is or isn’t.  What I’m saying is… it could be.  Additionally, for the record this is all our OWN soldiers receive and they do or die by it.  If we are to claim that it is unfair for KSM, then how will we qualify that OUR OWN SOLDIERS are subject to it?  As it is, it appears KSM will get his day in court.

“Notice how all of these propaganda points make their way into what is a supposedly favorable article that’s published on a supposedly progressive website.”

Notice how you claim that only ONE SIDE should be considered…... yours.  What…. since apparently you claim to know them, ARE “progressive website” acceptable standards?

Actually, the terrorists have already won; look what
they did to us; the damage on 9/11 is nothing, but the
damage since is everything.

hello. while i agree with gerard and Samson that i find it difficult to determine whose side he is, on and that words alone are the answer: boo. i am not scared. i am not terrorised, i do not wish to force my way of life upon anyone, and i do not need my military off fighting a war that may be better fought by the Crips or the Bloods. this unratified ‘war’ should cease and desist.

I Dig Lonely Truth   ePie   November 20th, 09

Digs of truth are lonely.
Do ya dig?

Digs are lonely
like a hole in one,.. for a bunker
or a gusher buster, or a tea bagger,
or a busker
singing freedoms songs
with butterfly thongs
charging rights with wrongs
and bongfulls of BS for the throngs,...
who are catatonic,..
though randy
like the john of johns
dress up up their verbiage with wanton willy ‘Yeahs’
or nots,
for all the forgotten Hatten tots

also lonely in their digs.

Their “poisonous ideas” and our “poisonous ideas” look pretty much alike to me. Both of us think the way to convince people we are right, and bring us justice is to kill our opposition (meaning each other) as many as possible as horribly as possible.  The end result is a lot of dead people and a lot more fear and hate than when we started.  In all probability, we are both right and both wrong to one degree or another, and justice cannot be obtained and secured by wars, holy or otherwise.

While its nice to see a voice that actually opposes fascist military rule, notice how much propaganda works its way into this Washington Post piece.

—The right-wing notion that we have to be fighting this militant and violent Islam.

—That its the ‘enemy’s view of history’ that the west has been exploiting muslim lands and people. And that we install corrupt and lackey rulers in these lands.  The next paragraph calls this view ‘absurd’ and ‘obscene’.  Yes, I’m sure Exxon has always acted with the best interests of the natives at heart, and that profit was only a secondary idea.

—Then of course, we are also told of our successes and how our troops are winning this war.  We are always told that right up until the generals demand more troops and money.  Then of course the WaPo propaganda machine will tell us how we are going to lose the war if the generals don’t get what they demand.

—Mr. Robinson also tells us that a military tribunal is just as fair as a civilian trial by jury.

Notice how all of these propaganda points make their way into what is a supposedly favorable article that’s published on a supposedly progressive website.

We,as a nation must sacrifice ourselves to the alter of freedom! By cowering to the false profits of doom and gloom and letting halfwit politicians shred our only hope (the Constitution) with the bloody knives of a false “war on terror” we end up sheep in line for “The Shot”. I pray the truth comes out at the trials for these men. I truley believe they are the mind numbed front men for the perversion of patriotism born from a lust for power, control and the pathology of greed that has brought our great Nation to the bottomless pit of HELL…

Right on, Eugene…. if we cannot try these criminals in open court, whom can we try? A civil court, organized according to law, is the only place they (and we) will find justice.

I am ashamed of those Americans who trust neither our Constitution, Bill of Rights, courts or judges to do what must be done. I am ashamed of their meanness, their smallness, their vindictiveness. We are a magnanimous people.

Try them, give them their day in court.

To allow the fabric of our nation to be subverted by acts of terrorism is to grant the terrorist a victory. To continue to use the military rather than the police and the courts to defend us against acts committed on our shores is a wrong headed approach in my opinion.

If we subvert our system of justice, if we continue to use boots on the ground instead of allowing the citizens of nations threatened either by islamofascism or any other subverters of democratic choice to arrive at solutions we can only play directly into the hands of the extremists. I include homegrown extremism in this nation as well.