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After Religion Fizzles, We’re Stuck With Nietzsche

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Posted on May 9, 2010
AP / Olivier Laban-Mattei

By Chris Hedges

It is hard to muster much sympathy over the implosion of the Catholic Church, traditional Protestant denominations or Jewish synagogues. These institutions were passive as the Christian right, which peddles magical thinking and a Jesus-as-warrior philosophy, hijacked the language and iconography of traditional Christianity. They have busied themselves with the boutique activism of the culture wars. They have failed to unequivocally denounce unfettered capitalism, globalization and pre-emptive war. The obsession with personal piety and “How-is-it-with-me?” spirituality that permeates most congregations is narcissism. And while the Protestant church and reformed Judaism have not replicated the perfidiousness of the Catholic bishops, who protect child-molesting priests, they have little to say in an age when we desperately need moral guidance.

I grew up in the church and graduated from a seminary. It is an institution whose cruelty, inflicted on my father, who was a Presbyterian minister, I know intimately. I do not attend church. The cloying, feel-your-pain language of the average clergy member makes me run for the door. The debates in most churches—whether revolving around homosexuality or biblical interpretation—are a waste of energy. I have no desire to belong to any organization, religious or otherwise, which discriminates, nor will I spend my time trying to convince someone that the raw anti-Semitism in the Gospel of John might not be the word of God. It makes no difference to me if Jesus existed or not. There is no historical evidence that he did. Fairy tales about heaven and hell, angels, miracles, saints, divine intervention and God’s beneficent plan for us are repeatedly mocked in the brutality and indiscriminate killing in war zones, where I witnessed children murdered for sport and psychopathic gangsters elevated to demigods. The Bible works only as metaphor.

The institutional church, when it does speak, mutters pious non-statements that mean nothing. “Given the complexity of factors involved, many of which understandably remain confidential, it is altogether appropriate for members of our armed forces to presume the integrity of our leadership and its judgments, and therefore to carry out their military duties in good conscience,” Archbishop Edwin F. O’Brien, head of the Archdiocese for the Military Services, wrote about the Iraq war. The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, on the eve of the invasion, told believers that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein was a menace, and that reasonable people could disagree about the necessity of using force to overthrow him. It assured those who supported the war that God would not object. B’nai B’rith supported a congressional resolution to authorize the 2003 attack on Iraq. The Union of American Hebrew Congregations, which represents Reform Judaism, agreed it would back unilateral action, as long as Congress approved and the president sought support from other nations. The National Council of Churches, which represents 36 different faith groups, in a typical bromide, urged President George W. Bush to “do all possible” to avoid war with Iraq and to stop “demonizing adversaries or enemies” with good-versus-evil rhetoric, but, like the other liberal religious institutions, did not condemn the war. 

A Gallup poll in 2006 found that “the more frequently an American attends church, the less likely he or she is to say the war was a mistake.” Given that Jesus was a pacifist, and given that all of us who graduated from seminary rigorously studied Just War doctrine, which was flagrantly violated by the invasion of Iraq, this is a rather startling statistic.

But I cannot rejoice in the collapse of these institutions. We are not going to be saved by faith in reason, science and technology, which the dead zone of oil forming in the Gulf of Mexico and our production of costly and redundant weapons systems illustrate. Frederick Nietzsche’s Übermensch, or “Superman”—our secular religion—is as fantasy-driven as religious magical thinking.

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There remain, in spite of the leaders of these institutions, religiously motivated people toiling in the inner city and the slums of the developing world. They remain true to the core religious and moral values ignored by these institutions. The essential teachings of the monotheistic traditions are now lost in the muck of church dogma, hollow creeds and the banal bureaucracy of institutional religion. These teachings helped create the concept of the individual. The belief that we can exist as distinct beings from the tribe, or the crowd, and that we are called on as individuals to make moral decisions that can defy the clamor of the nation is one of the gifts of religious thought. This call for individual responsibility is coupled with the constant injunctions in Islam, Judaism and Christianity for compassion, especially for the weak, the impoverished, the sick and the outcast.

We are rapidly losing the capacity for the moral life. We reject the anxiety of individual responsibility that laid the foundations for the open society. We are enjoined, after all, to love our neighbor, not our tribe. This empowerment of individual conscience was the starting point of the great ethical systems of all civilizations. Those who championed this radical individualism, from Confucius to Socrates to Jesus, fostered not obedience and conformity, but dissent and self-criticism. They initiated the separation of individual responsibility from the demands of the state. They taught that culture and society were not the sole prerogative of the powerful, that freedom and indeed the religious and moral life required us to often oppose and challenge those in authority, even at great personal cost. Immanuel Kant built his ethics upon this radical individualism. And Kant’s injunction to “always recognize that human individuals are ends, and do not use them as mere means” runs in a direct line from the Socratic ideal and the Christian Gospels.


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By truedigger3, May 22, 2010 at 9:30 am Link to this comment

In Arabic Spain, the Jews were a minority compared to the Arabs, and the Arabs suffered tremenously, in the inquisition also, after Spain was re-conquered back.
Most of the Arabs refused to convert, and eventually either they were killed, but most were expelled to North Africa.
Many Jews were expelled to North Africa, too.
By the end of the sixteenth cetury there were no Arabs/Muslims left in Spain.

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By Shenonymous, May 22, 2010 at 9:09 am Link to this comment

Rarely at a loss for words…  A three parter smorgasborg. If you are
not interested, just skate right on by my comments.  Putting it as
trimmed as I thought necessary:

The use of theatrics is not new, as Plato used the dramatic form of
dialogue to illustrate his many theories and since he knew artforms
hit the emotional nerve, and it is only through the force of emotion
that one is moved to take action. Often the way of art is used when
sources are meager, are nonexistent, or might present some contrary
information for the intent of a theorist.  An artform used for exposition
allows for creative, meaning invented, exploration.  When participating
in such an exploration, it is advisable to keep in mind it inventive cast.

OzarkMichael’s contribution so far is remindful of the Spanish
troubadour, Ramon LLull, who is famous for his Dialogue, having been
influenced by the writing style and philosophy of Plato, about the state
of life in 13th century Spain.  He was most interested in science.  He
was interested also in theoretical thought whether from Muslim,
Christian or Jewish thinkers, but especially in order to exploit it
creatively.  He developed a new kind of logic, the Art, which is an arch
combinatory method which provided him with a tool of rational
persuasion, much in the fashion as the Plato/Socrates dialogues do. 
Art, then, is the tool for persuasion.

Learning Arabic, in the era of the Spanish Inquisiton, Llull wrote three
books directly in Arabic: the Book of the Gentile and the Three Wise
Men, the Book of Contemplation and Al-Gazhali’s Logic and only copies
in Catalan and Latin remain. The philosopher believed that to convince
the other it was not advisable to use force, but rather rational logic.

In the Book of the Gentile and the Three Wise Men, Llull systematically
set out the principles of Christianity, of Judaism and of Islam, with a
responsible knowledge of the contents of all three religions, which was
not common among the writers of religious polemic of his time. The
three monotheist religions sought to impose themselves as the
absolute truth above the others, and it is in this context that Ramon
Llull wrote this work. Using the rational and highly innovatory method,
he started from a new base, without prejudices, to construct a
persuasive and coherent argument. Wisely to keep it aabstrct, by not
mentioning the authorities, his Art could be used in equal conditions by
all, thereby becoming a tool of discussion that the adversaries could
not dismiss.

To keep a good perspective, another historian, Anthony Bonner writes
that in the Middle Ages the concept of tolerance did not yet exist and
interreligious dialogue was one aspect of apologetic literature, a
controversy within the vision of the world so profoundly theocratic that
in those times reigned throughout the Mediterranean.

Offering the above as a staging for this, it seems what must also be
said is that no one in their ‘right’ mind would deny the enormous
contribution Islamist thinkers gave to the progress of civilization.

There is an enormous amount of resources to find out about Islam’s
role in an amazing period of optimum development in Spain from about
the 10th century to the 16th. Resources may be found that include
films and written literary sources, books, etc., at
http://www.islamfortoday.com/history.htm
Other information about Islam may be found at that site as well.
Other sources regarding the Jews in Spain than Islamist references
include:
Charafi, Abdellatif.  Once Upon a Time in Andalusia. University of
Portsmouth: http://muslimsonline.com/bicnews/Articles/andalusia.htm.
18 Nov. 1998.
Hume, Martin A. S. The Spanish People: Their Origin, Growth and
Influence. Appleton & Co., 1901.
Diaz-Mas, Paloma. Sephardim: The Jews from Spain. Uni. of Chicago
Press, 1992.
Epstein, Isidore. Studies in the Communal Life of the Jews of Spain.
Hermon Press, 1968.

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By Shenonymous, May 22, 2010 at 9:03 am Link to this comment

List Cont.
Holy Qur’an. Trans. M. H. Shakir. Elmhurst, NY: Tahrike Tarsile
Qur’an, n.d. 1990
Lane-Poole, Stanley. The Story of the Moors in Spain.  Black Classic
Press, 1990.
Lewis, Bernard. The Jews of Islam. PrincetMeyrick, Fredrick.  The
Doctrine of the Church of England on the Holy Communion, Princeton
University Press, 1984.
London, 1891. Sachar, Howard M. Farewell Espana: The World of the
Sephardim Remembered. Vintage Books, 1994.
Watt, Montgomery. A History of Islamic Spain. Edinburgh: University
Press,  1967.

Somewhat a digression from the intent of the current discussion about
the “real” history of Christianity in contradistinction from a putative
history as presented thorough what is called secular textbooks, I will
take this “amber” moment to mention that in addition, the treatment of
women during the “Golden Age” was consistent with the historic
treatment by the male dominated world.  Women essentially had no
identity separate from their father’s or their husband’s, and juridically
they were property of their husband’s.  In spite of their
subjugation, there were vestiges of the liberal thinking, which when he
became dictator in modern Spain, Franco had terminated during the
Spanish Civil War.

An exploration about Spanish women during the golden age includes
not only queens but women artisans and female religious figures.
Showed that women’s lives were complex and their roles ambiguous. 
Although the dominant culture of that age subordinated women,
women’s own efforts Herculean at times often allowed them to create
some space for achievement and fulfillment. And we are grateful, are
we not?

There is documented evidence, however, that women’s position
declined after this golden age. Instead of greater liberalization, there
was a backlash after the Protestant Reformation in which the Catholic
Church sought to impose its rule even more severely over the
population. This meant control of both men’s and women’s sexuality,
and a strict division of labor along sex roles. These attitudes led to
stringent control of women’s lives, and great isolation of women within
families. Later, during the 19th century, a great majority of Spanish
women were illiterate, and most of the educated were educated in
convents.  Hence, a heavy religious indoctrination flavor to their
education. The focus was on creating “obedient” wives and mothers
who fit into arranged marriages, and were willing to accept their
husband’s mistresses and abuse.  Digression over, for the moment.

Since the discussion has digressed also in the direction of Islam and
Christianity, it seems only proper that some ambience about the Jews in
Iberia be laid out.

From the above list of articles and texts, one can easily derive a
summary of the Jewry experience in Spain from 10th century to the
15th and 16th.

Just to add some clarity to the discussion and put in perspective that
experience so that the advance of the discussion topic may proceed on
a “cleaner” road, it needs to be said that Spain had a huge Jewish
community in the middle ages and toward the end of the 14th century
a great number of them were converted to Catholicism.  Considered
conversos,  “converso” is literally someone who was formerly Jewish and
converted to Catholicism. They converted for all kinds of reasons. 
Some were forced and some went willingly into Catholicism. The term
converso was applied not only to the generation that converted but also
to their children and their grandchildren and on down through the
generations.

According to history books, in 1391, terrible riots overwhelmed
southern Spain. People were offered the choice of converting or being
killed.  Some 20,000 converted under those circumstances.

They had no psychologically intention of becoming Catholic. They were
not educated in Catholicism and they went on living their Jewish lives as
they wanted.

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By Shenonymous, May 22, 2010 at 8:58 am Link to this comment

Twenty years hence, a series of preaching campaigns run by the
Dominicans converted many tens of thousands of Jews, largely by
persuasion. These Jews were interested in becoming Catholic in
order to join the mainstream Catholic high society, and they were
given open access to jobs and to possibilities that they’d never had
before. 

When the Inquisition came to be the law, two generations later, most
had had no intention of becoming Catholics but others did.  Those who
were trying assimilate into Spanish society continued their Jewish
rituals, Bar Mitzvahs, circumcisions, and they attended Easter holiday
processions intermixed in ways that were very complex in Spain.

By the 1450’s, the converts had become the new urban middle class. 
Because of their historic financial skills they dominated business. 
William Shakespeare’s The Merchant of Venice dramatized that skill, not
exacting the pound of flesh was the saving grace!

Spaniards felt it was imperative to make a distinction between old
Christians and new Christians because they were afraid that the new
Christians were taking over certain key middle class positions in society
and that troubled them greatly.

Other people converted because they had swords to their throats and
they had a choice of converting or dying.  Many converted because they
fell in love with someone who was Catholic and the only way they could
marry them was to convert to Catholicism, there were dozens and
dozens of those.  Many people bought the argument of the Dominican
preachers who said, “believe in a God who is all powerful and all
knowing and is just.” All you had to do was gaze at the soaring
cathedrals and the squalid Jewish synagogues to know that while God
once favored the Jews he had obviously changed sides.

Many converts joined the Church as monks, priests,and some rose to
positions of great power. Some even became Inquisitors because they
believed in their heart of hearts that Christianity was now the true
religion.

The effort to convert people was designed by the Church to promote
unity but the society was not willing to accept this and certain factions
within the church were not willing to accept it either. They were not
willing to accept the converts as fully equal as participating Christians
and, increasingly, barriers were erected to try to keep them separate.
Rather than decreasing the number of categories in society it actually
increased them over the long haul and produced incredible tensions.

The Spaniards officially tried to get the converts to assimilate. Laws
were passed prohibiting them from following their former Jewish
customs or from fraternizing with their former Jewish friends and
relatives but there was no enforcement mechanism and those laws had
very little effect. They tried separating the Jewish community from the
convert community by ghettoizing the cities for the first time in serious
forced ways and that didn’t do succeed either. They expelled the Jews
from cities like Seville to try to isolate the converso community from
contact with the Jews and that didn’t promote assimilation either.
Increasingly an enforcement mechanism that would police the converts
to prohibit them from identifying themselves as Jews and to practice as
Jews and the only way to do that was to separate them from the
traditional Jews… and to punish them or coerce them from continuing
their Jewish practices in any way.

The Spanish Inquisition officially had no jurisdiction over Jews. It only
had jurisdiction over Catholics. Once a Jew had converted and accepted
the waters of baptism then they were officially Catholic and it was the
job of the Church to ensure that they were fully believing, fully
practicing Catholics and that they shed their Jewish beliefs and
customs. That was the Inquisition’s main focus with respect to Jews.

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By Anarcissie, May 22, 2010 at 7:50 am Link to this comment

nemesis2010, May 21 at 3:52 pm:

  By Anarcissie, May 20 at 6:25 pm

  ”Well, we each know only one piece of matter from the inside, and it is conscious.  The evidence, then, is that all matter is in some way conscious.”

organic matter—inorganic matter

Have you ever heard the old adage about it being better to keep one’s mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and be known one? ...’

Sure, but I’m not greatly concerned with other people’s estimates of my intellect.  I put forth a certain idea (one with a considerable history) which filled certain requirements you had specified about evidence in the hope of provoking an interesting response.  Apparently it was too radical for you, and yielded a rather dull cliché instead.  Do you want to try again, or are you stuck?

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By truedigger3, May 22, 2010 at 6:37 am Link to this comment

Sodium-Na,

I think I figured out what do mean by “debate the issue honestly.
For you the most important issue, is to explain and discuss Islam.
I know, you are well meaning, and your intention is to bridge the so called “gap”, but unfortunately by doing so, you will be adding fuel to that hogwash nonsense about the so called “clash of civilizations”.
There is no clash of civilizations, but there is clashing and jockeying to control more oil and natural resources and amassing more corporate wealth.
Islam like ALL religions, is based on given blind faith, and objection or doubt is not welcome, and in some instances are not tolerated at all.
How to explain or “discuss” any subject based on these premises??!!
But a short brief explanation of Islam is a good idea and recommended!
In my humble opinion, explaining that “Allah” means “God” in Arabic and that Islam recogonizes all the prophets and messenger mentioned in the bible, and that Islam recognizes Christ as a messenger but not as “son of God”.
In my humbel opinion, there is strong similarity between Islam and Judaism, but without the tribal element, and with universal element, teaching the equalities of races and compassion toward prisnoners of war, who didn’t commit atrocities.
Religion is often used as a mask to wage war for economic reasons.
Even the enfamous Crusades were not about Jesus Christ but about founding new land for the landless European nobility and controlling the trade rouutes that passed through the Middle East and Cnstantnopolos bringing priced and coveted silk, porclain, herb and spieces from China and the far East.
The Crusaders burned, sacked and looted rich and gilded Costantonopolos and committed terrible atrocities there, against what they initially called our “brothers in Christ”!!.
Disclaimer: I am a hard core Atheist for more than half century, and I am not a Scholar in any religion or anything.!

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By Leefeller, May 22, 2010 at 5:39 am Link to this comment

Nemisis, you didn’t close the damn door to the barn.

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By truedigger3, May 22, 2010 at 4:18 am Link to this comment

By Sodium-Na, May 22 at 2:21 am #

By Sodium-Na, May 22 at 2:21 am #

For Truedigger3,

Td3,

May I ask you to let it go at that in due respect not to the apple polishers,but respect to other posters who genuinely want to debate the issue honestly.
__________________________________________________

Sodium-Na,

What do you mean by “other posters who genuinely want to debate the issue honestly”.?
Are you implying that I was dishonest in what I wrote?! Now, you are being dishonest.
What was your contribution toward that debate??
You came to the debate, tooting your horns and beating your chest and drums, and all what you contributed was a silly meaningless personal attack on Shenonymous that detracted and was detrimental to my side.
You were like what they say, “the mountain shook and heaved and then gave birth to a mouse”.
And now you are sermonizing and preaching and implying that I am dishonest? What a joke??
With “friends” like these…...???!!!

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By Sodium-Na, May 22, 2010 at 2:01 am Link to this comment

elisa,

Glad to know it is still there. Will pay a visit to the “evangelical Rebillion” shortly after I finish my Aljazeera routine reviews in Arabic and English. The difference between the two is striking. More news and discussions and debates and bickerings in the Arabic virsion.

Thank you,elisa.

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By Sodium-Na, May 22, 2010 at 1:50 am Link to this comment

The following Scholars in Islamic studies and its history are the ones I consider worth reading their thoughts on the subject:

French Scholar:
===============
Louis Massignon(1883-1962)is considered by many as the best in the Western world. I read some of his works in Arabic when I was stationed in Amman,Jordan,translated into Arabic,although Massignon was extremely fluent in the Arabic language.


British Scholar:
================
Arnold J. Toynbee is outstanding when it comes to recording history. He covers Islam from a historical dimension.


American Scholars:
==================
John Woods of University of Utah.
Juan Cole of University of Michigan


Muslim Scholars:
================
There are so many through the ages. However,I recommend only two to keep it as simple as possible:

Ibn Rushd.
Al-Farabi.

Good luck and enjoy reading them,if you have the time.

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By elisalouisa, May 22, 2010 at 1:20 am Link to this comment

Sodium-Na
Yes it is. Looks very interesting. Quite different from what goes on today her on Truthdig.
.
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20071223_the_evangelical_rebellion/

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By Sodium-Na, May 22, 2010 at 12:50 am Link to this comment

Re: OzarkMichael, May 20 at 3:49.

Quote
======

Islam expects to be evaluated only by the few who can make an exaustive study of it. It is a long rouad. First one must learn Arabic,for the Koran is not understood as a series of thoughts or ideas,but it exists in the heavens in Arabic,and the style of it is in itself a holy thing.

So only after learning Arabic,the exhaustive study begins. However,even an exhaustive study might not be completed by the end of a lifetime. If that would be scholar’s life ends before the long and arduous journy is complete..the evaluation of Islam was unfortunatelynever accomplished.

Criticism is a rare thing in Islam.

Unquote
========

OzarkMichael,my friend of old,

The three paragraphs of yours,quoted above,are so profound and true,I could not let such profoundness pass-by without thanking you for such truthful and honest comments that come from the smallest corners of the heart..

Sooner or later,somebody got to finish the torturing journey,so that constructive criticisms among the knowlegdeable scholars may begin one day. I do hope so.

I am now cotent for the fact that the 13 different topics I had posted about Islam,three years,for you and Shenonymous,per yours and Shenon’s requests were not gone in vain. I wonder if the 13 topics are still on the forum that followed the column entitled,“The evangelical Rebillion” by Chris Hedges” or deleted. I had recently tried to get some old posts on different threads and I could not.

I have followed your posts currently exchanging with others. You are doing just fine. But that does not mean I agree with. Not at all. It is simply an encouragement for handling several posters alone.

Good luck and thank you again,my friend of old….

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By Sodium-Na, May 21, 2010 at 10:21 pm Link to this comment

For Truedigger3,

Td3,

May I ask you to let it go at that in due respect not to the apple polishers,but respect to other posters who genuinely want to debate the issue honestly.

Please…. And thank you.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 21, 2010 at 8:02 pm Link to this comment

truedigger3, May 21 at 7:34 pm #

Re: By Night-Gaunt, May 21 at 6:49 pm #

Night-Maggot wrote addressing me:

“How to redeem yourself…......”
___________________________________________________

Night-Maggot,

Redeem my self??!!  F*&K YOU
******************************

I’m betting I know who’s next to get his knuckles rapped by T.M. for ad hominem attacks.

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By OzarkMichael, May 21, 2010 at 6:03 pm Link to this comment

Part One: “Here, and with you, it shall begin”

The year is 1252.

You are a Christian person, alive and well in the month of May. The Inquisition has been been going on for a few years as the church tries to stamp out an occasional heresy here and there.

Perhaps you dont know anything about the Inquisition? Understandable, since it is not widespread yet.

Let me tell you what just happened.

Because, well, there is terrible news. In April, just one month ago, an Inquisitor with full authority from the Pope was murdered by a conspiracy of evil heretics.

The Pope has decided that since heretics are murderers of souls as well as robbers of God’s sacraments and of the Christian faith, they are to be coerced into confessing their errors and accusing others, although one must stop short of danger to life or limb.

Just a few days ago, on May 15, the papers were signed by the Pope and its all official now. This changes the way the Inquisition works. Before now the Inquisition was not allowed to do such things to people.

Who am I and how do I know of this?

A simple explanation: I am an Inquisitor. I carry the very papers in question. Here, read it yourself: and see that they give me legal authority to tend not only to the soul, but also to the body if need be.

You ask me with your worried look ‘what does this all have to do with me?’

Well, i will tell you. We are coming to your town. There will be a big meeting tomorrow.

Dont worry, everything will be fine.  Your village will be much better after we are through with you.

Do you have anything to confess?

1252 was significant because in May the Inquisition began to use torture.

Now, Truthdiggers, instead of just talking about about thousands of people killed by the Inquisition, I brought it nearer to heart via dramatic effect. For we cannot encompass the deaths of thousands. We cannot fathom the danger under which hundreds of thousands had to live. But just for a moment with a dramatic imagination we grasped a little of it. And from that one grasp, the hundreds and the thousands become more real.

Now the pay-off: If you really were a Christian(perhaps a peasant) and the Inquisition came to town, what would you think? More importantly, since you probably just went along with the Inquisition, how do you justify that? If you as a Christian Medieval person supported the Inquisition wholeheartedly, please explain why. If you were a Christian in name only, for what reasons would you tolerate or support the Inquistion?

Your answers to the questions are crucial to our investigation.  Some of your answers will describe how anyone in the human race would feel. Answers that are more religious in nature will also be useful. If you are able to suspend your disbelief and get into the mindset of medieval Christianity, giving a specifically Christian answer… that would be especially important. Actually i dont want to guide you too much, since answers from you on every level are what I need.

As a warmup to get in the mood, you might want to think of why people supported Guantanamo Bay. After all, in both cases a great authority figure has signed the paper that allows the official person to use torture techniques to gain information. What justifies it?

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By truedigger3, May 21, 2010 at 3:34 pm Link to this comment

Re: By Night-Gaunt, May 21 at 6:49 pm #

Night-Maggot wrote addressing me:

“How to redeem yourself…......”
___________________________________________________

Night-Maggot,

Redeem my self??!!  F*&K YOU!!.

Report this

By elisalouisa, May 21, 2010 at 3:22 pm Link to this comment

Nem: When I read the comments on this thread and consider the comments plus the incredible inanity of Hedges’ false dichotomy presented in this article .  .  .  .
The fact that you intensely dislike Chris Hedges’ column speaks for itself.
I won’t respond to your inflammatory verbage. I knew it was coming sooner or later. Blissfully, it came sooner. The Republicans need you, that’s really who you are, that was evident from the beginning.

Ciao!

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By OzarkMichael, May 21, 2010 at 3:13 pm Link to this comment

briefly,

Shenonymous said: since it is the tenets of Islam that directed the Moorish “multicultural blessings, with equal rights for all for the first time,” as you said, but since this is your show, all right, let it go.

First, you are as always very polite to allow me to work my thesis without too much distraction. And if you wanted to discuss something else too thats ok. I am not as good as you are at doing two topics at once.

Second: If you read the original post slowly, I introduce the Golden Age as an assumption: “To make my point, let us assume that the Golden Age of Islam in Spain is true.”

I did that because Islam is a somewhat neutral 3rd party to our upcoming argument. The illustration using Islam does not suffer the friction that perhaps a similar one using Christianity would generate.

At some point in that post i closed the assumption. I said, “Now I stop my assumption that the Golden Age is true.”

This is a weakness in my writing, that i make abrupt turns of thought, changing the assumptions in order to investigate or illustrate my main point. I do it frequently, but there are signs posted.

Drive slowly and we will get there.

Speaking of such, i must go out to eat dinner now.

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By Night-Gaunt, May 21, 2010 at 2:49 pm Link to this comment

Ha-Ha (False)Truthdigger3. You first shit on the green and now you won’t clean up when others dislike it. You need to clean up your mess. Telling me to leave. How authoritarian of you. Dictatorship the last refuge of the bully and scoundrel. I ask you to clarify, you dissemble and say you already did when in fact you haven’t. Then complain to me when I don’t buy your lies. How is that ad hominem if they are correct? Note: civility is a good thing to cultivate. I have been quite civil to you. No time like the present.

How to redeem yourself? Start acting civil and truthful and explain and prove when you accuse. Rather simple, better than this wasteful nonsense. It is personal integrity that is the real point of this article, not religion. If you are a cad you will use it to your advantage if it gives you a chance. Religion gives that chance, but it can be secular and still follow the same pattern of worship as in Russia, China, Mongolia and other places over the years. The end product was the same. Only it was the omnipontent state who replaced a god by those who did not want to share.

I humbly await Ozark Michael‘s next magnum opus.

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By OzarkMichael, May 21, 2010 at 2:42 pm Link to this comment

I am at work and only have time for a quick laugh. Maybe I am the only one who sees the humor so i will explain the joke in a moment:

By ofersince72, May 21 at 4:16 pm #


Too NEMESIS…AMEN

This thread ought to end with your post…

A real desire that the thread should end with nemesis would be best expressed with ofersince72 remaining silent.

Instead ofersince72 made sure that the thread would end not with Nemesis but with…. ofersince72. Which is just “Too NEMESIS… AMEN” for me, and makes me laugh.

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By truedigger3, May 21, 2010 at 1:50 pm Link to this comment

Re:By Leefeller, May 21 at 1:52 pm #

Weefeller wrote:

“My appointment of biliouosity to TruthDig3
would be subject to cretin suspiciousness.

(The drivel made me do it)!”
___________________________________________________

Weefeller,

What can I say! You ARE funny this time.
But don’t get your hopes revved up. Your track record is not encouraging.

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By Shenonymous, May 21, 2010 at 12:35 pm Link to this comment

Why ofersince72, am I not surprised at your ebb since not
much has ever flowed from your computer keyboard?  You have
shown yourself to be the archetypical hit and run artist.  The
discussion which we are about to engage might be way above
your ability to make any sustained intelligent donation?

But I am of the mind, in spite of the animosity that existed between
truedigger3, Sodium Na, and a vagrant few others, and myself
that if they are interested in OzarkMichael’s excellent and
ponderous enterprise, that they join us.  In spite of my perception of
them that they are detractors of me, I can put that aside to see if they
have any ideas to add that may be discussed.  Perhaps better relations
can be facilitated and neither side has to retreat?

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By Shenonymous, May 21, 2010 at 12:16 pm Link to this comment

So sorry we will be missing nemesis2010’s insights into our
newly launched project.  I thought, nemesis2010, in your
obvious learned and intelligently detached background you would
keep us honest.  Sayonara, but I hope you will change your mind.

Using many words and not saying so much, a characteristic for which
I may be guilty, though not everybody thinks so according to many
comments I’ve read, I will try to “briefely” make a few “more”
comments, at least as much as I am able, as a prelude to actual
discussion of the program per se for which we await OM’s
contribution. While I do make extended comments I make it a point to
be as economical with the language I use.  The fact is that topics
deserve more meat and less hit and run French fries but we are usually
left with a dash of spicy ketchup.  I see then that you think, OM,
Islam has been relegated to the insignificant. I think that might be a
mistake, since it is the tenets of Islam that directed the Moorish
“multicultural blessings, with equal rights for all for the first time,”
as you said, but since this is your show, all right, let it go.  It seems
you can make a point using it but precludes anyone else?  And so it
goes.

I said much more, no doubt too much for you to digest, but
nevertheless I would appreciate some address to whatever it is even if a
passing remark.  I am giving your project due respect.

Since you are intent on “creating a secular history in order to show
that the present polity is not influenced so much by religion, and the
future polity is not influenced at all by religion,”
it seems beyond the
goals of the universities to more or less “play into the hands” of
atheists.  I say this mainly out of my experience with universities and
with atheists who might populate them, though more religious
academics populate the ones where I have been employed than
atheists, so your thesis seems specious to begin with, and thus I need
to be forgiven for my suspicions. All the universities where I have
worked also have a Department of Religion and the faculty often have
lively, but respectful, discussions with the faculty of the Philosophy
Departments.

I have here given textbook titless that are used in history classes that
do not uphold your thesis on what information is provided the college
students.  I have never heard nor read in any syllabus nor any textbook
used that accuses that religion poisons ‘everything” the catchphrase
made popular by the militant atheist Christopher Hitchens, nor anything
close.  Colleagues make the conscious effort to keep a neutral personal
tone so that students may learn to use their own evaluative brains.  It is
called critical thinking which religions do not encourage but rather
promotes faith in the doctrines as presented.  One must be careful to
not confuse celebrity glorified passion with the reality that exists on
campuses.  So, yes, let the facts speak for themselves.

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By ofersince72, May 21, 2010 at 12:16 pm Link to this comment

Too NEMESIS…AMEN

This thread ought to end with your post…

later..OFER

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By nemesis2010, May 21, 2010 at 11:52 am Link to this comment

By Anarcissie, May 20 at 6:25 pm

”Well, we each know only one piece of matter from the inside, and it is conscious.  The evidence, then, is that all matter is in some way conscious.”

organic matterinorganic matter

Have you ever heard the old adage about it being better to keep one’s mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and be known one?

”The will to be stupid is a very powerful force, but there are always alternatives”
—Lois McMaster Bujold

By elisalouisa, May 20 at 9:37 pm

”elisa: False. Cut the drama, that’s my stuff. Life is full of wonder and that
spark within goes on, embossed with events that took place in your life. The seed within the plant also lives on carrying all the data that the plant experienced thus the seed reproduces another of its own. Recycling, that’s what it is.”

You do not understand the difference between recycle and reproduction. The plant is not recycled. The seed that it produces is offspring and are themselves new plants, should they find the correct environment and grow. Recycled means that the original would have to be reprocessed; it isn’t.

When you cannot even admit to a truth that elementary school children learn in their very basic science classes that’s when I have to say enough and bail out of this nonsense because I cannot deal with the stupid. My 7 year-old grandson has a much better understanding of elementary botany than you do. I’m talking 2nd grade. He understands that the seed in the cup of water is going to be a bean stalk soon and that that plant will die eventually.

You stare reality in the face and deny it which makes me wonder if you’re drunk, high, or insane,—perhaps all three. I cannot imagine the amount of fear that one must have to accept stupidity on the level that you so obviously accept it rather than deal with the discomfort and pain reality that reality often causes. This is not ignorance elisa, we’re all ignorant of many things, but when one denies reality in order not to deal with it, there’s no other word but stupid to describe it.

When I read the comments on this thread and consider the comments plus the incredible inanity of Hedges’ false dichotomy presented in this article, I’m truly saddened. I’ve dealt with republicans and evangelicals for years and thought that coming to a more liberal site I’d encounter more enlightened and intelligent people. I couldn’t have been more wrong. Most of you here make teabaggers sound like rocket scientists. The level of stupid is overwhelming.

I’m not going to attempt to address the rest of your incoherent dribble because one cannot reason with someone who did not arrive at his conclusion from reason.

This country is finished. The representative republic was a great experiment but…

”An empty head is not really empty; it is stuffed with rubbish; hence the difficulty of forcing anything into an empty head.” –Eric Hoffer

”...one of the truly bad effects of religion is that it teaches us that it is a virtue to be satisfied without understanding.” –Richard Dawkins

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By truedigger3, May 21, 2010 at 11:26 am Link to this comment

Re: By Night-Gaunt, May 21 at 1:18 pm #


Night-Gaunt,

I told you that I am having zero respect for you and to Get Lost.
That means , your insisting on continuing these vicious, now, uncalled for, ad hominem attacks, means nothing to me, and only exposes the manure, that is stored in your body, for everyone to see. Get Lost.!

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By OzarkMichael, May 21, 2010 at 11:07 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie said: I don’t think Western non-Muslims, including the intelligentsia, generally take the content of Islam very seriously.  As a result they don’t know very much about it.  Hence it is not a very satisfactory target of either affection or abuse.

As usual, you use only a few words to say so much. Odd that the intelligentsia presumes to tell us what Islam means, but they will not explain their motive behind their affection or abuse, which as you say, is often ineffective on an intellectual level.

Shenonymous said: Then you spoke about the claimed benevolence of the Moors in Spain,
in what is often called the “Golden Age.”  Whether that is true or not also remains to be seen in our exegesis.


Anarcissie and Shenonymous, if you dont mind, since the significance of Islam is rather difficult to assess, let us pass that fortess by. Besides, I was only using it to make a point. i would like to focus on the Inquisition times. Anyone can do that, scholar or not.

Leefeller commented on the atheist goal for universities: Interesting, I would not assume to speak for all atheists, how is it you can?

I guess i cant. But many of you can.

Naught Gaunt commented about the atheist goal for university: It sounds like a straw man set up to me.

You reject the straw man argument and would rather discuss the facts, let the argument stand or fall with the facts. As Shenonymous says,:That will remain to be seen from the facts, no?

I did not expect any less, and i could not ask for more.

I will start on the project tonite.

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By Leefeller, May 21, 2010 at 9:52 am Link to this comment

I looked high and wide to find some crumbs of the little
of what was left in my crumbling remorse for Truthdig3. I
find Night Gaunt’s blistering accounting of Truthdig3, so
scathing as I have never seen before, except by the likes
of Shester. The only thing one can hope for, is Sodium
will come flying in wearing his, not sure what color
tights and save the day!

There may be some minor controversy about Truthdigger3
being a “bilious wimp”, well depending on ones agreement
of bilious, for there are many graduations of
biliousness. My appointment of biliouosity to TruthDig3
would be subject to cretin suspiciousness.

(The drivel made me do it)!

Car 54 where are you!

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By Shenonymous, May 21, 2010 at 9:29 am Link to this comment

Before I take a break here, I meant to thank, you Night-Gaunt, for
your startlingly perceptive assessment of the stagnation that exists in
some minds and their comments.

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By Night-Gaunt, May 21, 2010 at 9:18 am Link to this comment

“But to an atheist, the job of the university is to explain the Golden Age as an event caused purely by secular people with secular ideas. Except of course for the bad effects of religion, which the university must announce day and night with gusto.

The goal of this is to create a secular history in order that the present polity is not influenced so much by religion, and the future polity is not influenced at all by religion.”-Ozark Michael

I don’t know which “atheist” you mean or which university? For me history is bunkum unless the truth of it is given in all its beauty and ugliness and no Atheist/Free Thinker I have read would see it otherwise. Only a self blind fool would ignore religious influence in human culture. It sounds like a straw man set up to me. In times of hardship religious values can become brutal & their gov’ts can become belligerent and harsh. We are approaching a time where that can happen again—-globally this time due to the combined problems of GCC, resource depletion and overpopulation causing famine and fresh water shortages.

The fact that you are still posting, speaks volumes of your audacity. You, who suggested previously in different thread, that probably the only final solution to what you called “the Palestinian problem” is to use Eugenics!!!!-Truthdigger3

There you go again! Which thread and what day? Easy to do if you are in the habit of doing so. You don’t dig very deep. So do it so I can check and see if what you read is what it is. Your own comments about Shenonymous fit you to a tee.

Truthdigger3 you don’t read things very closely do you? That reference to “building up” was from my own experience outside of this forum, but the psychology is similar. Those that feed off of others by causing problems for them—-that is you. An emotional vampire that only feeds off the reactions of others. My former friend is such a person. You are specious and vainglorious who smites then moans when others respond to your attacks and claim to be the one attacked. Pitiful. Some of us won’t allow you to get away with that. Bullies need to be confronted and you are one of them. As for “vicious” that mantle goes to you Truthdigger3. Ever heard of the term “projection”? It is when the traits of one person are put upon another (enemy) then attacked for those traits by that self same person. A glove that fits you!! As for leaving—-make me. You don’t have the strength to do that or the intelligence. You are a bilious wimp. Whose mouth is larger than their mind. Chew on that Truthdigger3.

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By Shenonymous, May 21, 2010 at 9:17 am Link to this comment

The strength of any religion lies in its membership for without a
constituency, a religion is nonexistent.  If for some reason a member
questions the authority of a religion, whether that is what is said by the
clergy or by a guidebook, a holy book, a scripture, there evolves reason
to declare a heresy has been committed.

How one frames a question determines the force of the answer. 

It is with whole-hearted welcome that we embark on this quest for
truth even on a lowly place as a blog.  For in my mind enlightenment
begins with one mind and becomes infectious.  We should want to go
slowly and not rush past any rationale that would go to support
anyone’s notion about the new but relevant topic at hand. 

Also, it should be understood that at all times only a civil language will
be used or tolerated.  NO name-calling or reference to personal
character is to be used as that would put a pall on the entire
enterprise. That is not the way OzarkMichael and
Shenonymous have ever had disagreement on any forum where
they met and other’s who join in the debate out to keep that covenant. 
OM and She will demonstrate this amity once again. 

This topic is sorely needed not only here on Truthdig, but, really, in the
entire world since much is at stake.  But we begin here.  I am certain
there are many good minds who visit or reside here at TD on both
sides of the questions that will not be avoided in the discussion.  There
are those who have excellent minds and will contribute greatly to
promote a clearer idea of what it is we are after, truth and a better way
of life. 

So for my part to begin as a response to OM’s last post: ” Let me
restate what you are saying… Since the church promotes Christianity,
you are saying that someone has to denigrate Christianity in order to
balance it out? And that role falls to the state, and the public schools
and the university, and probably the media as well?”

Is that what I really said? No, it is what you want me to have said.  Is
telling the facts, or worse, telling the truth, a denigration.  That is the
logic of fascist thinking.  And I am NOT calling you a fascist, as over
the entire time we have shared forum space of about three years, you
have only shown to be the opposite of a fascist, and mightily fight
against it.  But the language of fascism is pernicious and creeps in from
that ugly realm known as fear, Fear of the Truth.

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By Shenonymous, May 21, 2010 at 9:14 am Link to this comment

Before I continue, I will say, OM that I think you describe
secularism within a narrow parameter and one size, as is seen
also within Christianity, does NOT fit all, as well shall see.

You go on to say [I am] setting the state against religion, you are
approving of an intentional ‘cover-up’ of historical facts by the state
to balance out the effect of the churches?”
 

That will remain to be seen from the facts, no?

Then you spoke about the claimed benevolence of the Moors in Spain,
in what is often called the “Golden Age.”  Whether that is true or not
also remains to be seen in our exegesis.

Your next comment about the job of the university is patently false.  To
show this I will refer to at least two adopted college textbooks: 
World History – The Human Odyssey, West Educational Publishing
(Thompson Publishing Co.) 1998, and The World’s History, Volume 1
to 1500
, second edition, 2000, Prentice Hall, Inc., and a text I own,
The Spanish Inquisition, in World History, Richard Worth, Enslow
Publishers, Inc. 2002.  I will also use the Internet where I am not sure
of the dynamics being discussed.  I also have copies of the Bible
(the Oxford Annotated Standard Version, 1962),  and the Qur’an
(translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali that says copyright but no date given,
published in Pakistan).  While you do not wish to use references, I
cannot say I am as well versed in all that might be discussed and I
eschew personal opinion unless I say that is what I am doing, in which
case I do not expect anyone else to hold to my opinions.  As an
academic, I am basically bent on scientific investigative practices and
nothing less will convince me that anyone’s opinion has any
foundation. 

Since nothing is born in a vacuum, by definition, it would seem that
some preamble to the questions that are before us would be helpful, if
only for the purpose to provide an intellectual ambience even if one’s
own thinking is to be undertaken. 

The advent of Christianity begins on page 181 of the 1120 pages in the
World History text, and page 256 in Volume 1 of The World’s
History
.  The sole reason I note these page numbers is to show that
Christianity is taken up as a subject early in these volumes and hence
enters it into the consciousness of the students early in their course of
learning.  Also as an aside since it is a convention used by historians,
BCE means Before the Christian Era.  That fact indicates most accounts
of history today uses those initials and acknowledges that the turning
point in the world from ancient times to the ascendency of the modern
age pivots around the effects and power of Christianity.

With that I will begin my topical response in the next post.  I know you
are all awaiting with bated breath to see what it will be. I have to go for
now, but as with Arnie, I’ll Be Back. (I will now abbreviate that to AWA,
I’ll Be Back).

OM, see I have a good and healthy sense of humor. Thus sayeth
your friend, the secular atheist.

Nietzsche once said he would believe only in a God that knows how to
Dance.

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By Shenonymous, May 21, 2010 at 9:09 am Link to this comment

Amazing Grace, Night-Gaunt, you are found!  All must be
taken with a grain of salt, but just a grain mind you.

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By truedigger3, May 21, 2010 at 8:27 am Link to this comment

Re:By Night-Gaunt, May 21 at 12:56 am #


Night-Gaunt,

You requested copies of the disputed Shenonymous’s quotes, and I forwarded them to you with the Date and Time stamp.
Instead of discussing or even trying to refute these quotes, you ignored them completely and embarked on vicious ad hominem attacks on me.
I never had any personal dealings with you bfore, so on what basis do you say that I am building people up then try to bring them down.??!! Did I try that with you?
Why do you keep trying to project your shitty life experiences and your psychological issues on me??!!
You lost all what was left of any respect I have for you. Get Lost.

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By Anarcissie, May 21, 2010 at 8:26 am Link to this comment

OzarkMichael, May 21 at 9:03 am:
’... The strange thing is that the state and the university actually have begun promoting the ‘Golden Age’ idea, even crediting Islam for it.

So the “secularized history gun” is not aimed at Islam so much as at Christianity. Would anyone be bold enough to explain why this is so? ...’

I don’t think Western non-Muslims, including the intelligentsia, generally take the content of Islam very seriously.  As a result they don’t know very much about it.  Hence it is not a very satisfactory target of either affection or abuse.

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By Leefeller, May 21, 2010 at 7:53 am Link to this comment

OM stated:

“But to an atheist, the job of the university is to
explain the Golden Age as an event caused purely by
secular people with secular ideas. Except of course for
the bad effects of religion, which the university must
announce day and night with gusto.”

Interesting, I would not assume to speak for all
atheists, how is it you can?  It is not quite the same as
saying all bigots are bigoted!

If I stated the same thing and changed it from atheist to
a Teli Tubby Basher, the exception would be different and
so would the night and day gusto!

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By Shenonymous, May 21, 2010 at 6:59 am Link to this comment

You will verify the comment you attribute to me, won’t you
truedigger3 with an exact post date and time, as you have
erroneously spoken once again.

The fact that I am still here after 4036 comments on Truthdig forums,
is my persistence and tenacity. You can check out the number of posts
I’ve made at your membership site.  No one has ever been able to
decimate me for comments I’ve made and your pathetic attempt will go
into the toilet of the history of those who tried.  If I have ever been
found to be wrong and it was pointed out, I apologized with a thank
you to the one who corrected the information. 

I have never expressed any solution to “The Palestinian Problem” except
to say that neither proposal to the one-state or two-state was viable. 
So f to you.  You are a liar and a crude thinker at best with a penchant
for intentionally missing the truth to bloat up your own meager ability
to think and see into issues.  I will not dignify any further comments to
you until you prove your falsifications and defamation of my character.

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By truedigger3, May 21, 2010 at 5:33 am Link to this comment

Shenenymous,

The fact that you are still posting, speaks volumes of your audacity. You, who suggested prviously in different thread, that probably the only final solution to what you called “the Palestinian problem” is to use Eugenics!!!!
I don’t hate women, but I hate both men and women who are dishonet and liars and fabricators of history and facts and insist maliciously on spreading fear, hysteria and hate.
Of course the zionist contingent loves you and will defend you and will be on your side, no matter what. You are always trying to justify or obfuscate the appalling injustices and unspeakable atrocities that were inflected on the Palestinian people by Israel.
The fact remains that you are a liar, fabricator and extremely intellectually dishonest and biased.

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By OzarkMichael, May 21, 2010 at 5:03 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous said: Churches are supposed to teach the good parts of the religion, so ought there to be a redundancy in teaching what they teach and that it should also be taught a second time in secular schools?

Let me restate what you are saying…Since the church promotes Christianity, you are saying that someone has to denigrate Christianity in order to balance it out? And that role falls to the state, and the public schools and the university, and probably the media as well?

You are setting the state against religion, you are approving of an intentional ‘cover-up’ of historical facts by the state to balance out the effect of the churches?

To make my point, let us assume that the Golden Age of Islam in Spain is true. That Europe experienced multicultural blessings, with equal rights for all for the first time, that the people of Spain were all so happy to have the Muslim armies come, etc etc.

If such an event were true, then it is the duty of the university to explore it and explain it. To give credit to Islam for showing the way to Europe, investigating which core ideas of Islam promoted equality and good governance, as well as which purely secular ideas contributed to it.

But to an atheist, the job of the university is to explain the Golden Age as an event caused purely by secular people with secular ideas. Except of course for the bad effects of religion, which the university must announce day and night with gusto.

The goal of this is to create a secular history in order that the present polity is not influenced so much by religion, and the future polity is not influenced at all by religion.

Since the mosque promotes Islam, it is up to them to explain if there was any good effect in history from it. Why should the university be involved in the ‘redundancy’ of researching anything good about Islam in history? For the university must keep religion, the “poison” which ruins everything (according to a popular atheist) isolated and cut off so that it will not spread its meme(according to another popular atheist)?

Isnt it the job of the state to arrange it that way? Isnt that what the separation of church and state was meant to do?

Now I stop my assumption that the Golden Age is true. Because I dont believe it anyway.

The strange thing is that the state and the university actually have begun promoting the ‘Golden Age’ idea, even crediting Islam for it.

So the “secularized history gun” is not aimed at Islam so much as at Christianity. Would anyone be bold enough to explain why this is so?

it is not clear what you mean when you
say “it is not at all in keeping with the Spirit of the Age to admit of any dependency upon what is described as “poison” (the Christian religion)
which the human race must “set aside and advance to a better future”.

Hopefully it is more clear now.

But to anticipate, expect, what others might do in the way of derision is trying to set yourself up defensively for something that may not exist. 

That is like saying to Shenonymous that she shouldnt expect any static on Truthdig. ie… this has been happening since the beginning, it happens daily on Truthdig, so why would it stop now? Is it not better to be prepared for the hecklers and haters and explain ahead of time that you will entertain real questions, so it is understood that the rest will to be ignored? Otherwise we will get nowhere.

I will do my best to set aside my prejudices whatever that might mean, since you have not explored what those are.

I count on your good effort, and I expect nothing less from Shenonymous even when the going gets tough. But I do expect you to fight me every inch of the way, and so far I havent been disappointed.

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By Night-Gaunt, May 20, 2010 at 8:56 pm Link to this comment

Unfortunately such people as Truthdigger3 found out a way to elicit angry retorts from you Shenonymous & unfortunately there are others that go to his side even though he is the instigator. (I say he until informed otherwise.) Very sad stupid and wasteful to the normal person but there are those who get off to doing so. I had a friend once who liked to break me down then build me back up for his amusement. I didn’t understand at the time because I was blinded by the idea of having a close friend and wouldn’t dream of them doing such to me. I found out later and ended the “frienemy” relationship. Here it isn’t so easy. I understand you way of responding Shenonymous. It is hard dealing with small minded people who get their jollies from causing mayhem even if it is through words alone. We must cope as best we can. [Too many people want to be dictators of others—it seems to be a common trait among a certain number of humans in any given population.]

Happy World Metrology Day! The establishment of universal standardized weights and measures. 17 countries on this day in 1875 joined together to use the exact same example of a meter and kilogram in France. Ahh the geek in me.

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By elisalouisa, May 20, 2010 at 6:57 pm Link to this comment

Nemesis: Please ignore any comments as to the Bob Dylan video in my post of 5/20.
Thank you.

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By elisalouisa, May 20, 2010 at 6:51 pm Link to this comment

elisalouisa said - “Things have changed” Bob Dylan. Thanks.
Excellent video, the only one that merited any consideration in those you recommended. First three were trash, sorry to say, making Muslims seem almost inhuman.”

Were you addressing your comments to me? Shenonymous?  Since i was the one who posted the Dylan music in a post to ofersince72 May 20 at 10:51am.  I have no idea what you are talking about of videos showing ? caning of young women?  boxing and football?

Shen: My screen must have jumped and I picked up your video. So be it. The commentary is directed to Nemesis who I thought had include that video with the others he posted.
Thanks anyway, I did enjoy it.

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By Robert, May 20, 2010 at 6:34 pm Link to this comment

Click on links below for further information, & bibliography of Cole’s writings…etc…


“Juan R. I. Cole is Richard P. Mitchell Collegiate Professor of History at the University of Michigan. For three decades, he has sought to put the relationship of the West and the Muslim world in historical context. His most recent book is Engaging the Muslim World (Palgrave Macmillan, March, 2009) and he also recently authored Napoleon’s Egypt: Invading the Middle East (Palgrave Macmillan, 2007). He has been a regular guest on PBS’s Lehrer News Hour, and has also appeared on ABC Nightly News, Nightline, the Today Show, Charlie Rose, Anderson Cooper 360, Countdown with Keith Olbermann, Rachel Maddow, the Colbert Report, Democracy Now! and many others. He has given many radio and press interviews. He has written widely about Egypt, Iran, Iraq, and South Asia. He has commented extensively on al-Qaeda and the Taliban, the Iraq War, the politics of Pakistan and Afghanistan, and Iranian domestic struggles and foreign affairs. He has a regular column at Salon.com. He continues to study and write about contemporary Islamic movements, whether mainstream or radical, whether Sunni and Salafi or Shi`ite. Cole commands Arabic, Persian and Urdu and reads some Turkish, knows both Middle Eastern and South Asian Islam. He lived in various parts of the Muslim world for nearly 10 years, and continues to travel widely there. A bibliography of his writings may be found here.


Juan R. I. Cole


Professor of History
1029 Tisch Hall
University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1003

Education

# 1975   B.A. History and Literature of Religions, Northwestern University
# 1978   M.A. Arabic Studies/History, American University in Cairo
# 1984   Ph.D. Islamic Studies, University of California Los Angeles


http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/jcpers.htm


http://www.juancole.com/

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By Shenonymous, May 20, 2010 at 6:27 pm Link to this comment

truedigger3 you act the crude and bitter individual with not a
scintilla of class.  Your hatred of me because I called you out the very
first time you showed the mean, hatefilled person you behave as.  It
is exceeded only by an apparent lack of a grasp of reality.  You are
wounded that anyone, particularly a woman, could or would stand up
to your bullshit.

This forum was just fine until out of your bowels you decided to insult
me.  And because you are missing a sense of decency it escalated and
because I am not a submissive woman.  I reciprocate usually with
greater ferocity.  I tried to defuse it a couple of times but your hubris
always presented a handicap. 

Time and time again not only I but others have requested that you give
evidence of your pretension to knowledge.  Others have testified that I
provide proper sources.  If I failed to do so, usually they remind me in a
polite manner.  If sarcasm or name-calling seeps in, and it has from
certain personality types, I react to the same degree as was dealt.  You
may not respect knowledge, particularly my knowledge, but I think
most of those who post on these forums appreciate if nothing else the
attempt to gain better knowledge.  Except perhaps elisalouisa.  You
unceasingly falsely and erroneously portray what I say and call me
names at the same time.  Then you have the rude and foulmouthed
routine to speak to others about me as if you were soliciting their
grace. That is infantile behavior.  You do not have to agree with
someone, with me, to have a civil discussion.  I have made over 3,000
comments on Truthdig forums in the three years I have posted here. 
An uncountable number of these forums have been highly intelligent
and without “rancor.”  A simple inspection would show that only a few
have been rife with rancor.  And it is always instigated by some
unprincipled individual calling me names or berating my character. 
There are some who simply do not like me.  That is not a problem I
own, but is theirs.  For I never ever begin the namecalling or character
assassination.  But I do respond.  I always respond.  I participate on a
few forums concurrently to this one as a matter of fact and only mutual
respect prevails even in the face of differences.  You made a choice to
not conduct yourself in a respectful manner to me making contemptible
and slanderous remarks at my person. 

elisalouisa said - “Things have changed” Bob Dylan. Thanks.
Excellent video, the only one that merited any consideration in those
you recommended. First three were trash, sorry to say, making Muslims
seem almost inhuman.”
 

Were you addressing your comments to me? Shenonymous?  Since i was
the one who posted the Dylan music in a post to ofersince72 May 20 at
10:51am.  I have no idea what you are talking about of videos showing
what? caning of young women?  boxing and football?

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By elisalouisa, May 20, 2010 at 5:37 pm Link to this comment

Part II
5/20 response to Nemesis

Nem:The plant has a beginning and an end. When the plant dies it is gone
forever and that’s it. The seed that was the origin of the plant also dies as it is
the frickin plant! Look at the seeds that come from the fruit of the plant as its
offspring. The correct cycle is: “life’s a bitch then you die.”

elisa: False. Cut the drama, that’s my stuff. Life is full of wonder and that
spark within goes on, embossed with events that took place in your life. The
seed within the plant also lives on carrying all the data that the plant
experienced thus the seed reproduces another of its own. Recycling, that’s
what it is.

Nem: Do you have any evidence to back your claim of a spark?

elisa: To have evidence I would have to understand the process, not only I
but others. No can do. It is not within our realm of thinking. The unknown
cannot be explained. Our mind cannot even fathom that which is. You really
believe there is no cycle in life? We are what we are because of this spark that
carries the imprint of our life and lives past. Evolution perhaps? As another
poster said, All matter is in some ways conscious.

Nem: You don’t join the National Guard to see the world.

elisa: False. Excerpt from National Guard News. WASHINGTON, May 19,
2008 - The Defense Department today announced force rotations for Iraq and
Afghanistan, including upcoming active-duty deployments later this year and
alerts to Army National Guard units to deploy in spring 2009 and 2010. The
National Guard is recruiting and offering great cash bonuses as an incentive to
fight their wars and also see the world.<i>

Nem: Does anyone depreciate life more than they do in the Muslim world?

<i>elisa:  I really don’t fathom why you would even find it within the framework of our exchanges to ask such a question? I have never thought of
the Muslims as depreciating life. My observation has been that the Muslims are
the ones who are being depreciated as evidenced by the videos you endorse.

Nem: If a citizen is uninformed it’s because he/she doesn’t really want to
be. HOw do you explain me:

elisa: Wouldn’t even try. Some have drive and are inquisitive, some are not.
As to who lives in the future, the power/elite don/t necessarily want only the
thinkers in their new world. It is easier to rule those who accept, do not
question or seek further knowledge. Such people would do the menial work.
Many who question may not fit into what is to come. I just read down the line
in your post where you suggested ‘Road to Serfdom’ as reading material which
as you stated confirms my comment about the power/elite wanting people who
accept and do not question in their new world. ‘Why the Worst Get on Top’
sounds interesting also.

As to one of your last comments: “You understand that your leaders are duly
elected.” I might add to that,“With little choice.” The power/elite and Wall Street
have bought our Congress, the President. Big election donations make a
difference. How many people were for NAFTA? Or for globalization of finances?
Or for factories in our countriy going to other parts of the world? I almost cried
when Schwinn Bikes went to China. Both parties cater to the power/elite and
Wall Street. Therefore the vote is nullified for we have no other choice.

As to which civilization would survive in boob land, (connotation does not go unnoticed), I refuse to play that game, for both cultures have more than what
can be shown in a 3 minute video. Also whoever you ask would choose the
culture similar to their own for that’s where they are most comfortable and also
all have a need to have their culture live on.

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By elisalouisa, May 20, 2010 at 5:19 pm Link to this comment

Nem: “Life’s a bitch, then you die.”
Elisa: “Life is full of wonder.”


“Things have changed” Bob Dylan. Thanks. Excellent video, the only one that merited any consideration in those you recommended. First three were trash, sorry to say, making Muslims seem almost inhuman. First video is the caning
of the young women where no facts are presented, not even who the people are. In another video, sports are discussed and women in the Muslim world as related to sports. Boxing and football are also discussed. Thumbs up on these two subjects.  I saw just a few seconds of the third video and knew it was more
trashy propaganda. Muslims are indeed dehumanized in such a manner that people accept mideast wars and the killing of Muslims, the destroying of crops and destruction in their cities and towns.  To understand such religions one must live with the people, not hear sound bites or look at 3 minute videos. I
have been fortunate enough to have traveled somewhat, I have seen the Blue Mosque in Istanbul, also the Alhambra in Granada. Such beauty reflects an advanced culture as to knowledge and the arts. Traveling through areas mostly inhabited by Muslims where the call to worship throughout the day was an accepted way of life also was educational. To understand any religion you
cannot just take sound bits and 3 minute videos into account. This tactic has been used against Jews and also against Catholics and other denominations. Having said this, I assume this is not your intent and thank you again for the Bob Dylan video

How about a game where Madman Moon (code name the M&M Kid)  keeps referring to videos that depict Muslims in a very negative manner. You have five choices as to the motivation of Madman Moon.
a. Former wife was a Muslim ‘who done him wrong.’
b. Daughter married a Muslim and is living in a mideast country as a Muslim.
c. Madman Man is CIA man who peruses the Internet looking for good Websites
to spread murky propaganda about Muslims, getting Americans thoroughly
disgusted and ready for coming wars.
d. Just a person who really feels women should be exalted to their rightful
place.  grin
e. The M & M kid is a nut case.

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By Anarcissie, May 20, 2010 at 2:25 pm Link to this comment

nemesis2010:
’... More importantly, you are making the claim that consciousness continues beyond life and is part of a universal whole or some crap like that. Therefore it is your burden to provide the evidence for such a claim and to present it to scientists so that your claims and evidence can be tested. ...’

Well, we each know only one piece of matter from the inside, and it is conscious.  The evidence, then, is that all matter is in some way conscious.

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By truedigger3, May 20, 2010 at 1:17 pm Link to this comment

By Leefeller, May 20 at 2:51 pm #

Truthdigger3,...... You have a farm?
___________________________________________

No. I just want to sound clever and folksy! Is that alright with you? Can I count on your blessing and approval?!!

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By Inherit The Wind, May 20, 2010 at 11:56 am Link to this comment

She,

Looks like you are doing very well at fending them off.

BTW, I’m not Polish. Never was, never expect to be. Some damn fool decided I “must” be and has been talking about Polish Jews and me ever since.  Not sure why.

My family’s eastern and Central European, but nobody from Poland. 

My wife had one grandmother from Poland, but that’s as close as I come.

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By OzarkMichael, May 20, 2010 at 11:49 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous said; My guess is there isn’t a handful on Truthdig who are scholars of Islam.

I will be more specific. There isnt a single one. If Sodium is not one, then no one here is one.

Islam expects to be evaluated only by the few who can make an exhaustive study of it. It is a long rouad. First, one must learn Arabic, for the Koran is not understood as a series of thoughts or ideas, but it exists in the heavens in Arabic, and the style of it is in itself a holy thing.

So only after learning Arabic, the exhaustive study begins. However, even an exhaustive stufy might not be completed by the end of a lifetime. If that would-be scholar’s life ends before the long and arduous journey is complete…  the evaluation of Islam was unfortunately never accomplished.

Criticism is thereby a rare thing for Islam.

This is the majesty of Islam, which is not merely a new tradition but a fundamental of Islam. One does not need to be a scholar to understand that from the beginning and to this day Islam maintains its dignity, and criticism was and is going to be rare. This arises from the fundamentals evidenced by Mohammed, who by the way is to be called “Prophet Mohammed” even if you are an unbeliever.

Meanwhile, it is interesting that none of us has to be a scholar and spend years of study in order to have an opinion of Christianity. Everyone here, absolutely everyone, can express what they think.  This arises from a foundational aspect of Christianity, and it has a profound effect on history.

It is from the fundamentals, the life and teachings of Jesus, wherein humanity is invited to come to him in any state of knowledge or lack thereof. As Jesus said,Let the little ones come to me, and do not keep them away(thats Matthew 19:14, for the Bible readers among us, especially beloved Anarcissie)

Furthermore, Jesus invited people to express their opinion of him to his face. But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am? (from matthew 16:15)

And most of all, since actions speak louder than words, he subjected himself to a trial, where humanity was free to treat him however they wished. In a sense the trial continues to this day.

Even if you do not believe, you still benefit from the fundamentals of his life and actions, because your forbears did believe and they thought and acted upon that belief. Your freedom is the result. It is your inheritance from Christianity even if you think Jesus never existed.

As for naming him, the examples of naming him went as far as someone nailing a naming sign to the cross that he hung upon. Accurate or not, the sign remained there. What he allowed is an example to believers down to this day.

And to this day you are free to name him however you like, and many of you have named him all sorts of things here on this thread.

I too am free to name him, and so i shall… as Lord and Saviour, Jesus who is the Christ.

Tonite or tomorrow i shall begin the comparison of Inquistion and its counter-current.

Come as you are.

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By nemesis2010, May 20, 2010 at 11:46 am Link to this comment

II

4. Whether or not someone should destroy anything or anyone in order to survive depends on the situation Elisa. Self-sacrifice is part of being human; you’re mixing apples and oranges. One sacrifices himself for the good of the group or another. Parents self-sacrifice every day of their lives for their children and grandchildren. This is one of the reasons our species advanced and others are extinct.

Let’s see how you do answering those types of questions. Remember, this is hypothetical. Let’s say you live on the planet Boob where there are only two groups of people. One group lives like those in the video of the caning and members of the other group have lives similar to what we have in the U.S. The all-powerful god of the Universal Consciousness and Blue Cheese is going to destroy one of the groups and offers you the choice of which will live on and which will be destroyed. Your choices are one or the other and if you refuse it’ll destroy both groups and you’ll suffer unspeakable pain and torment in the triple sun hell for 15 eternities. We’re talking multimillions of Boobians for each of the two groups; what’ll it be? In your opinion and based on the following information (links), which group is more likely to provide a better, more enlightened future for the Boobian species?

Before you make your decision I want you to view this video—it’s only a man being interviewed—listening carefully to what he says, especially toward the end because he mentions yoga also. (it’s only 3 min.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnfVQlbitYU&feature=related

After viewing the video go to the following link, scroll down a bit and read the comments of the four women then make your decision.

http://pajamasmedia.com/phyllischesler/2009/11/23/under-the-islamic-veil-faces-disfigured-by-acid/


5. Yes we are down to the nitty-gritty or perhaps the nutty-gritty. I should have worded it differently but I was in a hurry.

Here goes:

Based on all the evidence available consciousness is a function of the human brain. Therefore, when the brain ceases to function—at death—there is absolutely no evidence to substantiate continued consciousness beyond death.

More importantly, you are making the claim that consciousness continues beyond life and is part of a universal whole or some crap like that. Therefore it is your burden to provide the evidence for such a claim and to present it to scientists so that your claims and evidence can be tested.

6. An egg is fertilized and about 20 weeks after initial fertilization the fetus shows signs of some type of brain activity and perhaps consciousness. There’s no spark. You are hazarding much more than a guess; you’re hazarding a completely unverifiable theology.

7. It’s the 21st century and mankind has a much better understanding of agriculture and plant biology. The plants do not die to be reborn in the spring. When the seasons change the plants are growing and taking care of other parts of themselves. The plant has a beginning and an end. When the plant dies it is gone forever and that’s it. The seed that was the origin of the plant also dies as it is the frickin plant! Look at the seeds that come from the fruit of the plant as its offspring. The correct cycle is: “life’s a bitch then you die.”

8. Do you have any evidence to back your claim of a spark? A spark would mean energy and energy is detectable and measurable. Where’s your evidence? Is your evidence that you know it or can feel it? If it is then, sorry, that isn’t evidence, that’s touchy feely.

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By nemesis2010, May 20, 2010 at 11:42 am Link to this comment

By elisalouisa, May 19 at 9:29 pm

”A response to your 5/19 post Nemesis Part I”

I

1. Is that what I did; blame the pacifist for the wars not being over? I can see two key words—might and may—in my statement. “Might” indicates a possibility or probability that is weaker than “may” and “may” indicates a certain measure of likelihood or possibility. Look carefully how they are used; might for prevention and may for cessation of hostilities.

If you know when the wars will be over why did you ask me when would it all end?

You don’t join the National Guard to see the world; you join the Navy for that. Americans wanted an all volunteer army; they have it. That’s also why we have what are now Executive private armies e.g. Blackwater. If you want to see the world it’s much smarter to get a job with a company and work international; not only do you get to see the world but they usually pay much better and the benefits are incomparable. The moral of the story is do not sign on the dotted line. To join the military thinking America won’t have a war while you’re doing your hitch is not very smart. Everyone should take a long hard look at America’s war history before assuming that.

2. Does anyone depreciate life more than they do in the Muslim world? You are correct neither my son nor my grandchildren are slow and stupid. But that’s because we educate them and pass knowledge and wisdom down to them.

I’m going to overlook the insult this time.

Stop blaming Big Media Corp and AmeriCorp propaganda for most of the people being willfully stupid and ignorant. There’s more information available now than ever before. Isn’t being properly informed the responsibility of the citizen? There are public libraries, school libraries, college libraries, the Internet, more book outlets than one can imagine, ebooks, audio books, etc. If a citizen is uninformed it’s because he/she doesn’t really want to be. How do you explain me?

3. Geez you’re a piece of work. You jump to such conclusions that you could easily break the world broad jump record. Devoid of feeling? Jeebus on my grilled cheese sandwich! You simply don’t understand, do you? Enlightenment comes from ideas. Ideas are born in the minds of educated and intelligent men and women. The reference “slow and stupid” has to do with evolution. Prey animals tend not to be high on the intelligence scale and they are usually slow in comparison to the predators. A deer is a fast animal, yet a Cheetah for a short distance can outrun it, Slow and stupid are relative, those with ability survive their environment and pass on their genes—that includes both prey and predator. It’s not all brute force either. We’re here because we adapted to our environments better than others of the Homo genus. We also learned group cooperation improved our chances for survival and thus the ability to get laid and pass on genes. You really need to read that book by Jerry Coyne.

You do understand that all our leaders are duly elected, do you not? Stupid is as stupid does. Another book: Read the 10th chapter—“Why the Worst Get on Top”—of F.A. Hayek’s “The Road to Serfdom” and you’ll understand why the ruling elite desires and benefits from a dumbed-down populace.

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By Leefeller, May 20, 2010 at 10:51 am Link to this comment

Truthdigger3,...... You have a farm?

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By truedigger3, May 20, 2010 at 9:49 am Link to this comment

By Warsong, May 20 at 1:10 pm #


Well, looking at two other forums in addition to this one (all three politically motivated), I notice that the other two seem to be missing something: back biting and name calling…with each post complimenting the one replied to without necessarily agreeing, in fact, quite often disagreeing, without rancor.
__________________________________________________


Warsong,

I bet the farm, Shenonymous was not posting on these other two peaceful forums.
Shenonymous has a long history of provoking rancor, and locking horns, serially, with one poster after another.
I am not the first one, and I guarantee you, that I will not be the last one. I think she thrives on creating rancor and controversy and the accompanied attention and showy vacuous pedantics.

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By Warsong, May 20, 2010 at 9:10 am Link to this comment

Well, looking at two other forums in addition to this one (all three politically motivated), I notice that the other two seem to be missing something: back biting and name calling…with each post complimenting the one replied to without necessarily agreeing, in fact, quite often disagreeing, without rancor.

One Forum also brings up a point…when this nation was founded, it was designed to have three branches of Government: Legislative, Judicial and Executive. Since Mr Obama came to power, we have devolved to a different set of three branches of Government: Legislative, Judicial, and, Faculty Lounge.

And, reading those posts, I have to agree (on topic of discussion), both Obama and Hitler were brilliant mesmerising speakers, with great delivery, while one was an Athiest, the other undecided, both having the ability to drive crowds wild.

But, which one did it without a Teleprompter?

Which one ripped the world assunder? And, which one is well down the road paved by the other?

If there is no God, we need to create one quick.

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By Shenonymous, May 20, 2010 at 8:54 am Link to this comment

I really have to go, but I could not help making one last post before
attending the academic wars, they are so much more boring than
the TD war betwixt the Contingent and She.  But, mah! such
is life. 

You must have deity genes, you are so astute and see so well into the
most murky of thinking.  Are you asking, Leefeller if the “guys”
are Polish?  hahahaha Sorry ITW, no slur meant to the Polish people. 

And truedigger3, you did not say one word of my post at May 20
4:18am.  If it is just to provide material for you to rant again, you are
still up to your old unsubstantiated tricks.  You do not value research
because you like to voice only your inane opinions.  Why would your
opinions be any better than anyone else’s?  Are you completely self-
centered?  Yes.

Of course there are evils done by all religions, even the allegedly
benign Hindus, who were very brutal to the Muslims,which is why
Pakistan went Islam and India went mostly Hindu.  I have given
references for all of this so you are not saying anything that I had not
already said.  Are you some kind of parrot?  I wouldn’t be a bit
surprised if Muslims left in India were not discriminated against.

You just can’t stand it and have a hissy fit when you are shown to be
deficient.  You really ought to learn to read for comprehension or ask
your staff for some help!

ITW I have tried with all my might to keep myself on topic, but if
you really read for the reality of this forum you would see clearly it has
been impossible with those who would demean me rather than provide
any sufficient information that is counter to what I’ve found, not even
one piece and the whine is that authentic comments are not necessary. 
Oh boy, and oh yeah. I can only deduce that education in depth is
lacking therefore an inability to argue well and properly.  Thus teh
reduction to name-calling and character assassination.  It happens to
you too!  Nothing has been offered from that Contingent, only
comments bordering on fanaticism.  It is nothing short of hubris.
Haven’t you noticed?  I do not think you are imperceptive, so I wonder
what is going on?  Night-Gaunt at least is a critical reader. If you
think I am wrong, you ought to say so, then I could check to see where
I could be.  Nothing short of that is a capitulation. 

I respect what you have to say, but you haven’t really said anything
except to wonder why the forum has shifted to Islam.  It has to do with
religion and atheism and which domain has been responsible for more
human death.  Since all religions have had their share of dealing death
to who is perceived to be non-believeing or other believing people, it
is, in the final analysis for the point I was making, moot which one
tallies up to have dealt the most human destruction.  So in a digressive
way, this is on topic.

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By Leefeller, May 20, 2010 at 8:19 am Link to this comment

Watching this horse and pony show by the contingent is like watching the G.O.P. try to run a political convention,  I love the intrigue, will or will not the contingent get ET to go home? The suspense is unbearable.

All this shuffling around,.....did you see what She said back on umpty ump date, that’s a real a good one to call her on,...... thanks,  I already saw that one,.... then have you seen the one about she calling us morons?... No that was from Leefeller and so was the Imbecile one too, the stupid one was by someone else!

Sodium keeping to topic I see.

So lets see if I get this right, everyone on the contingent is attempting to prove something that She said or did not say in writing on a public web site that everyone else has seen, so the intent is to remind everyone else what was said and what was not said? Can you guys repost some of my stuff, I love the gourndhog day concept, it is so you!

Have you guys tried changing a light bulb together?

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By truedigger3, May 20, 2010 at 8:18 am Link to this comment

Re:By Shenonymous, May 20 at 4:18 am #

ALL religions are elastic and full of contradictions. So, any believer, observer or detractor can find what he is looking for depending on the current environment, his mental state and lhis evel of intellect and culture.
Anyone can put a web-site or write a book which is full of misinformation and disinformation and biased look at ANY religion. So, your list of web-sites , books and scholars don’t mean a shit to me.
All these Islam detractors, why not they start “close to home” and take a look for example at the Old Testament which is full of very nasty,  hateful and cruel stuff. Didn’t “God” order the Hebrews when they enter a city to kill everyone including the children who are still suckling and even kill their sheep and cows.?! Didn’t “God” order stoning of “adulterous” women and killing disobeying children???!!!
Both the Old Testament and New Testament condoned slavery and a degraded status for women.
All that time and energy you are devoting ,with zeal , spreading hate,  fear and hysteria! What for?
There are sizable Christian minorities in some countries in the Middle East, and this hysteria of hate mongering against Muslims may result that these minorities might get hurt. The Arabs are like anybody else and they have their share of nut cases and hateful people too.
So, stop spreading hate and hysteria and try to be a purveyor of tolerance and Harmony.!

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By Inherit The Wind, May 20, 2010 at 8:05 am Link to this comment

As I read back through this thread I must confess to be lost as to where it’s going.  It looks like it’s trying to battle out who’s done more wrong in the world: Islam or Christianity.

I think neither has a sterling background.  And both can be corrupted to justify slavery, torture, subjugation of women and, of course, war and mass murder. Both have been.  I don’t deny that other religions can do the same, but in the West, it has been the clashes within and between these great religions that has done the most damage.

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By truedigger3, May 20, 2010 at 7:16 am Link to this comment

By Sodium-Na, May 20 at 4:43 am #

For Truedigger3,

Td3,

Please check the following two posts to show to Night-Gaunt:

(1) By Shenonymous May 14 at 8:25 pm. This post on page 2 of this forum,unless it moved to the first part of page 3 due to tra ........
.......

__________________________________________________-

Thank you Sodium-Na, I already did that in my post of May 19 at 7:35 Pm.

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By Shenonymous, May 20, 2010 at 6:51 am Link to this comment

ofersince72, if you ever made sense or made a worthwhile
comment I think everyone on Truthdig would drop dead!  So you
are impressed with my high horse?  That is the proper attitude.

Sorry but I cannot spend another minute on you, but that won’t be
missed since sum total you post very little anyway.  Hafta go to my
middle class job to work and get some people graduated.  Naw, they
already know if they are graduating or not.  Just have to clean up some
loose strings.

Ah, ahhhh yes, dreaming of summer.

Here are a couple of parting songs from my favorite Bobby!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9EKqQWPjyo
Things Have Changed
http://www.bobdylanlyrics.net/thingshave.html
lyrics

http://www.bobdylan.com/#/songs/neighborhood-bully
When the lyrics page loads click on listen.
Neighborhood Bully

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By ofersince72, May 20, 2010 at 6:18 am Link to this comment

Who declared war on who ????????

Talk about some revisionist history

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By Shenonymous, May 20, 2010 at 6:01 am Link to this comment

Sodium Na,
There are few unbiased scholars of Islam, Warner is one.  Can you
provide a list?  Dr. Warner is accepted as an authority on the History
of Islam. 

I am not a scholar of Islam. I do not pretend to be. I have a small
library of about a dozen books including the Qur’an. My guess is there
isn’t a handful on Truthdig who are scholars of Islam. That you would
hold me to a higher standard is partisan on your part and it is
improper. I am flattered you hold me so high, but you will simply have
to consider me in your own words, a Pitch.  Because you do not have
esteem for the websites I provided does not make them inauthentic.  If
anyone is truly interested they would do their own research.  If you
disagree with anything he’s written, you ought to write to Dr. Warner
and take it up directly. If you have any disagreement with any of the
other websites I provided, with all due respect, be specific and unlike
your protege who never is.  You may consult Night-Gaunt on
that. 

Bill Warner’ credentials already provided in an earlier post. Some are
worth repeating.

?Dr. Warner has had a life-long interest in religion and its effects on
history. He has studied the source texts of the major religions for
decades. Even before the destruction of the World Trade Center he had
predicted the war between Islam and America. The day after 9/11 he
decided to make the source texts of Islam available for the average
person. ??

Dr. Warner’s training in scientific theory and mathematics shaped how
he analyzed Islamic doctrine. The first step was realizing that the
Islamic texts had been made deliberately difficult to read and
comprehend.

A program, the Trilogy Project (see below), was created to strip away
the confusion in the texts. It became clear that Islam is not constructed
on the same civilizational principles as the rest of the world. Simple
statistical methods revealed that dualism and submission were the
foundational principles of Islamic doctrine. ??Statistical methods applied
to the Islamic texts showed that:
•  Islam is far more of a political system than a religion.
•  There is no unmitigated good in Islam for the kafir (non-Muslim).
•  Islam’s ethical system is dualistic and is not based on the Golden
Rule.
•  Islamic doctrine cannot be reconciled with our concepts of human
rights and our Constitution.­
•  The great majority, 96%, of all Islamic doctrine about women
subjugates them.
•  The Sunna (what Mohammed did and said) is more important than
the Koran in a Muslim’s daily life.

Dr. Warner coined the term, Foundational School of Islamic studies,
which holds that Islam is found in the Trilogy of Koran, Sira and Hadith.

All evaluation of Islamic history and current activity is caused by the
doctrine found in this Trilogy. Therefore, it is impossible to understand
any Muslim or Islamic action without knowing the doctrine that is its
cause.

??Dr. Warner postulates that there are three independent views of Islam
that are not reconcilable. The three views are believer-centric, dhimmi-
centric and kafir-centric. The believer-centric view is the view of a
Muslim. Dhimmi-centric is based upon the apologetic view of non-
Muslims. Kafir-centric is the view of the non-Muslim. A comprehensive
knowledge of Islam must include all three. These views cannot be
resolved, but each must stand-alone. ??Dr. Warner founded the Center
for the Study of Political Islam (CSPI) and is its director.

He has produced a dozen books, including a Koran, a biography of
Mohammed and a summary of the political traditions of Mohammed. He
also developed the first self-study course on Political Islam. He has
given talks nationally and internationally about Islamic political
doctrine. He writes articles and produces news Bulletins that record the
suffering of the victims caused by Political Islam.
http://www.cspipublishing.com/About_Us.htm

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By Sodium-Na, May 20, 2010 at 4:38 am Link to this comment

Re: Shenonymous,May20 at 5:31 am.

Shenon,

The two links you provided are insults to you to me and to every enlightened person who is willing to waste his/her time reading them. Reasons:

(1) Not a single supporting document was given to support their claim. This not a scholarly research.

(2) Not a single Islamic scholar was quoted,even one single time,to back up their claim. This is not a reliable source to depend upon.

(3) Doctor Degrees in Physics and Mathmatics do not make their holders experts in Islamic Studies.

(4) Scholars of Islam in the West and in the Islamic World spend their entire lives studying Islam and,sometimes they die before they achieve their goal.

(5) What one of the two liks provided just talk. And talk is cheap. No serious scholars of Islam would take such a presentation seriously.

Sorry.

Perhaps,you may do much better next time.

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By ofersince72, May 20, 2010 at 2:30 am Link to this comment

EARTH   TO   SHE WOMAN…..
  EARTH   TO   SHE WOMAN….


  IS ANYTHING UP THERE????

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, May 20, 2010 at 2:01 am Link to this comment

“In my case, I would never take it on myself to speak for others unless my intention was to insult or promote and support a weak argument or point of view.”

It seems several here persist on speaking for othrs, so what is new?

The inquisiton seems to have returned!

ET, where are you!

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By Shenonymous, May 20, 2010 at 1:31 am Link to this comment

Thank you Warsong, much obliged.

It is good luck that truedigger3 will need since he doesn’t
have the intelligence to gather poop on Shenonymous such as his
secretaries do.  How absolutely funny, agan.  Shenonymous Poop
Gatherers!

As Per…
By Sodium-Na, May 20 at 4:43 am #
For Truedigger3,
Td3,
Please check the following two posts to show to Night-Gaunt:
(1) By Shenonymous May 14 at 8:25 pm. This post on page 2 of this
forum,unless it moved to the first part of page 3 due to trafic.
(2) By JDmysticD3,May 17 at 11:01 am. This post is still on page 1 of
this forum. JDmysticD3 says that he or she had tried to make sense
out of the content of the above post(1) but failed.
Good Luck
.

I realize that there are some who are just not insightful enough to read
and comprehend what they read.  It is a difficulty I know.  Many
students have that problem.  It is remedial.  But DJmysticDJ did
not say he could not make sense out of the content.  You fabricate
once again.  If anyone is really interested, I invite you to visit
DJmysticDJ’s comment May 17 at 11:01 am. Oh, no need to, I will
copy/paste it here below.

Here is the comment copy/pasted as it appeared:

By DJmysticDJ, May 17 at 11:01 am #
“Some of the claims made on this thread seem to defy logic, and are
revelations that I have never heard before. For example:
“… 23 million Yezidis (Kurds) have been killed by Moslems and their
other self-proclaimed enemies during the past 700 years.  According to
Bill Warner,” “Around 60 million ?Christians were slaughtered during the
jihadic conquest. Half of the glorious Hindu civilization was annihilated
and 80 million Hindus killed.

?The first Western Buddhists were the Greeks descended from Alexander
the Great’s army in what is now Afghanistan. Jihad destroyed all of
Buddhism along the silk route. About 10 million Buddhists died. The
conquest of Buddhism is the practical result of pacifism. Zoroastrianism
was eliminated from Persia. The Jews became permanent dhimmis
throughout Islam. In Africa over 120 million Christians and animists
have died over the last 1400 years of jihad. Approximately 270 million
nonbelievers died over the last 1400 years for the glory of political
Islam. These are the Tears of Jihad which are not taught in any school.”

But let’s not forget the rest of his post regarding what I had earlier
posted, you know, just to give it a bit more context:

“Perhaps the reason I’ve never heard these claims before is because
they, “…are not taught in any school.” I have done some limited
research on the www., but I was unable to verify these claims; if anyone
can direct me to verification on the www. It would be greatly
appreciated.” 

It is not clear what he meant, was it ... not taught in any school, or
unable to verify what claims?  Mine? I was not making any claims, only
reporting the fruits of my research. Warner’s?  He holds a PhD in
physics and math, NC State University, 1968. He has been a university
professor, businessman, and applied physicist and has had a life-long
interest in religion and its effects on history. He has studied the source
texts of the major religions for decades. The day after 9/11 he decided
to make the source texts of Islam available for the average person.  For
more about Warner, see
http://www.cspipublishing.com/About_Us.htm

Well if DJmysticDJ had done just a teensie weensie little bit of
googling, or you, he would easily have found the interview by this
credentialed man, but I don’t fault him as he might be too tired. 

http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=297

The Study of Political Islam By: Jamie Glazov
FrontPageMagazine.com | Monday, February 05, 2007
It is quite an enlightening interview of Bill Warner by Glazov.

Nice to be able to print this all this poop again.

Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei

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By Warsong, May 20, 2010 at 12:57 am Link to this comment

By Shenonymous, May 20 at 4:18 am #

She,

You mentioned the Yeshidi Kurds, and, you’re right they were the ones the Turks attempted to wipe from the face of the Earth (26 million seems about right). However, they are (and, were) a pacifist Christian Kurdish Sect that adheres strictly to the 10 Commandments, and, the Golden Rule. There are very few of them left, they are very insular due to past persecution, and, within the last year Al Qaida in Iraq drove three huge truck bombs into a village in North Iraq (from different diretions), and, killed hundreds of these innocent, innocuous people…without provocation.

We see this type of sectarian violence over here every day, and, the Sunni’s and Shiites appear to be on the verge of another civil war over the last election. Especially, when the Badr Brigade, the Mahdi Militia or one of the other Muqtadr Al Sadr Miitias is involved.

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By Sodium-Na, May 20, 2010 at 12:43 am Link to this comment

For Truedigger3,

Td3,

Please check the following two posts to show to Night-Gaunt:

(1) By Shenonymous May 14 at 8:25 pm. This post on page 2 of this forum,unless it moved to the first part of page 3 due to trafic.

(2) By JDmysticD3,May 17 at 11:01 am. This post is still on page 1 of this forum. JDmysticD3 says that he or she had tried to make sense out of the content of the above post(1) but failed.

Good Luck.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, May 20, 2010 at 12:18 am Link to this comment

It is easy to find comments by Shenonymous on Truthdig.
Using the search feature on Truthdig will yield all of them. 
Anyone can twist what another says to spin it for their own
purposes.

truedigger3 - provides a Shenonymous quote, “As I
said before, yes, the Arabs traded in slaves, but the number they traded
is minuscule compared to the huge number of slaves, traded by the
millions, by the English, Spanish, Portogese and Dutch in the Americas.
?... [another] quote from Shenonymous focusing on a local
situation where some Arab Pirates captured some Europeans sea
travellers mostly for for ransom and calling them “huge traders in
Christian slaves”!!!”

The following six websites will yield much history on the practice of
slave trading by the Arab world.  Some are too long for TD line length
and will have to be copy/pasted into a web browser to access.
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/slavetra.html
http://www.answering-islam.org/ReachOut/slavetrade.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_Slavery_in_the_Middle_East
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/lewis1.html
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?
historyid=ac41
http://www.amazon.com/Race-Slavery-Middle-East-
Historical/dp/0195053265

Selectively reporting what someone says without some context,
truedigger3, is a feeble method of arguing. 

What? elisalouisa is now truthdigger3’s research assistant? 
How absolutely funny.  Does it speak to his inability to provide
resources of his own?  Or more about elisalouisa?

truedigger3 again quotes -
Shenonymous “I explained twice why I omitted the Jews from
the list of those who killed others in the name of a god”?
____________________________________________________
truedigger3 - ?”Shenonymous,
I DID NOT ASK YOU any question about any killing list??I asked you why
you omitted the Jews from your list of all the ethnic and religious
groups who benefitted from COMMODITIES trading?

See previous post “a third issue” for comments on the commodities
issue.

truedigger3 says -
Night-Gaunt,
“Here are two quotes from Shenonymous in this thread.?I couldn’t
find her quote about attributing most of the slave trade to the Arabs. I
looked for it in other threads, but some how I couldn’t find it.?I am sure
it is there somewhere.”
 

See above information on the issue of slave trading by Middle
Easterners.

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By Shenonymous, May 20, 2010 at 12:02 am Link to this comment

Different issue:
truedigger3 -
“By Shenonymous, May 14 at 8:25 pm # ?..............?“The
foregone about the number of people killed in the name of the
Christian God does not include the number killed by Islam in the
Name of Allah. For instance, it is estimated that 23 million Yezidis
(Kurds) have been killed by Moslems and their other self-proclaimed
enemies during the past 700 years. According to Bill Warner, the
director of the Center for the Study of Political Islam, who probably has
a bias but I don’t expect to get any legitimate figures from the Muslim
community, Islam is the greatest killer of all time, worse than
Christianity, fascism or communism: “Jihad destroyed a Christian
Middle East and a Christian North Africa.”

I was giving a quote.  I am impartial.  The information was found on the
Internet, which I admitted and I invited verifiable objections.  I gave
websites for the other information in an earlier post today.

?___________________________________________________
and a third issue -
truedigger3 -
By Shenonymous, May 13 at 2:11 am #
..................?“It does appear according to all news reports on the
commodities marketplace, that the “super religious and oil rich Muslim
countries,” such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, The United Arab Emirates, Dubai,
are doing better than fine in the commodity domain, and definitely
without help from secularists.”

There is the qualifier “super religious”...Muslim countries…  Israel is not
a super religious country, does not and has not proselytized to enlarge
their “religious” membership.  They could care less if there were
converts to Judaism.  But that is not the case with Islam. While it can be
interpreted in various ways, through the institution of jihad, “outer
jihad” means that Islam has a divine right and duty to conquer the
whole world in the name of Islam.
Suras in theQur’an. 
8:39-40 Say to the infidels: If they desist from their unbelief, what is
now past shall be forgiven them; but if they return to it, they have
already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them
till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God’s.
9:29-33 It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with Guidance and the
Religion of Truth, to cause it top prevail over all religion, even though
the Pagan may detest (it).

For the state of the commodities market in Middle Eastern Countries,
copy/paste into browser to see this website:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/36072957/The_Middle_East_s_Most_Competiti
ve_Countries
?“That does not discount Armenia (Christian), Morocco (Muslim),
Malaysia (Chinese folk, i.e., Taoism and Confucianism), North Korea
(Juche, created by the government where all North Koreans are
members and Cheodoism which is a mixed pot of shamanic, Taoism,
Korean style Buddhism and even some Christianity thrown in), Thailand
(Buddhism), Romania (Greek Orthodox/Roman Catholic), Brazil (Roman
Catholic), and China (mainly atheism with a smattering of Bon, and
Buddhism) as being among the least affected by the US financial
crisis.”

This was referring to those countries who are doing well economically
who are religious.  I listed their relative religions.

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By Shenonymous, May 19, 2010 at 9:30 pm Link to this comment

It seems a fine thing to do to put Christianity in a proper historical
perspective.  Then you said, OzarkMichael, “we must weigh
in the good effects of Christianity also, concurrent in time with the
bad effects.” 

I completely agree.  The good effects of a thing must be seen along
with the bad, if one were to pursue truth.

Since the churches do not teach the Salem Witchtrials, Inquistions, and
the Crusades, it seems proper that the whole truth be taught
somewhere and therefore, it is left up to secular schools to be the
proper place to do that.  Churches are supposed to teach the good
parts of the religion, so ought there to be a redundancy in teaching
what they teach and that it should also be taught a second time in
secular schools?  I don’t see that colleges and universities tell their
students to not go to church. 

It seems a truism that a balanced view of history is not handed to
society by any officialdom.  But the “powers that be” can be from the
high priests of churches, to schools that teach history, to parents who
recount history.  What does it mean to say that a balanced view of
history is not something had from one’s own prejudice?  Prejudices as
learned from the powers that be?  For we are not born with prejudices
about history.

Trying to follow what you say, it is not clear what you mean when you
say “it is not at all in keeping with the Spirit of the Age to admit of any
dependency upon what is described as “poison” (the Christian religion)
which the human race must “set aside and advance to a better future”.

I am interested in what you are promising in the way of exploration.  I
will help to whatever degree I can to see what you do have to say.  But
to anticipate, expect, what others might do in the way of derision is
trying to set yourself up defensively for something that may not exist. 
It shows a tentativeness and a degree of disrespect for your
antagonists.  I will do my best to set aside my prejudices whatever that
might mean, since you have not explored what those are.

You say, “i am not copying someone else’s work, but searching the
facts out myself, starting with an original idea and seeing where it
leads.”

In other words, you are doing some original thinking.  That is without a
doubt commendable.  So you are saying you are offering only your
opinion?

Let us see where this goes.  Unless you have a prejudice against
Shenonymous’s participation.

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By truedigger3, May 19, 2010 at 8:33 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt,

As I said before, yes, the Arabs traded in slaves, but the number they traded is minuscule compared to the huge number of slaves, traded by the millions, by the English, Spanish, Portogese and Dutch in the Americas.
Here is a quote from Shenonymous focusing on a local situation where some Arab Pirates captured some Europeans sea travellers mostly for for ransom and calling them “huge traders in Christian slaves”!!!


By Shenonymous, May 1 at 6:47 am #
Little known is the fact of the Christian slaves of Maghribi Muslim Barbary pirates and privateers. Not only was it Christian nations that raided for slaves, but Arab Muslims were huge traders in the business.
It wasn’t until the Anglo-Dutch and Anglo-French naval forces successfully attacked the Barbary ports in 1816 and 1819 that the French’s capturing Algiers in 1830 that their repeated offense battered the Muslims into freeing the Christian slaves.

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By truedigger3, May 19, 2010 at 7:52 pm Link to this comment

Re: By elisalouisa, May 19 at 10:54 pm #


Thank you very much elisa.

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By OzarkMichael, May 19, 2010 at 7:42 pm Link to this comment

ugh, a mistake in my last post. Instead of a “banced view” it should read: “A balanced view of history is never something handed to us by the powers that be, or by our own prejudice. It is something that we must strive for.”

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By OzarkMichael, May 19, 2010 at 7:37 pm Link to this comment

I will soon sketch out for all of you the historical Christian counter to the historical Christian Inquisition. My sketch will not be merely of virtuous platitudes, but of intellectual concepts that led to practical action.  When I am done you will be better able to evaluate Christianity in history, if you wish to.

Even if you consider the story of Jesus to be a complete fabrication, you have proven that you understand some aspects of Christianity in history. Especially the bad effects. Many of you already knew of the Inquisition and were able to discuss it immediately. Others were even able to bring fine research to the table. All were able to percieve evil motivation and trace evil effects from long ago that reverberate to the present day.

But if we are to arrive at a proper judgement of Christianity in history, we must also weigh in the good effects of Christianity also, concurrent in time with the bad effects.

Perhaps you didnt expect our talk to go in this direction, and probably you have no idea where it will go next. I dont blame you for that. The secularists have been so afraid of the influence of Christianity on the state that they selected the Salem Witchtrials, Inquistions, and the Crusades as the primary narrative of Christianity in history to be taught in our schools and universities and popular culture. A banced view of history is never something handed to us by the powers that be, or by our own prejudice, it is something that we must strive for.

Furthermore, it is not at all in keeping with the Spirit of the Age to admit of any dependency upon what is described as “poison” (the Christian religion) which the human race must “set aside and advance to a better future”.

My next post will begin to weigh the power and influence of the Christian Inquisition against the power and influence of the Christian counter to it. We will see where they clash, and we will explore the outcome.

I expect a constant barrage of sniping, jokes and criticism. I will laugh at your jokes if they are funny, and I will weigh your criticism if it is good, and perhaps in the process we will enter a mutually valuable thought experiment.

I dont know if we can rise to the height of a thought experiment or not. In fact it will be impossible unless you know how to suspend your disbelief and set aside your own prejudices. I will strive to do my part but I cannot do your part for you.

Leefeller, who was amused by one of our thought experiments, asked me how I was “coming up with this stuff?” i replied,  “I am making it up in my head as I go along”. He took this to mean it was fabricated falsehoods, and made a fine riposte in his usual way. But what i meant was that i am not copying someone else’s work, but searching the facts out myself, starting with an original idea and seeing where it leads.

To this someone (was it Anarcissie?) found a book with the same thesis as mine, and proclaimed that it wasnt original since it was someone else’s idea already.

So now a disclaimer: probably somebody somewhere has written about this topic before.

But since I thought of it myself, and since i am exploring it on my own, and since I do this in the crucible of the moment, “live on stage” as it were, interacting with a “hostile audience”, if anyone can be said to “own” the idea it would be me.

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By elisalouisa, May 19, 2010 at 6:54 pm Link to this comment

truedigger 3:
Could this help you in your search?
The New Secessionists
By Shenonymous, May 1 at 6:47 am
Little known is the fact of the Christian slaves of Maghribi Muslim ?Barbary pirates
and privateers.  Not only was it Christian nations that raided for slaves, but Arab
Muslims were huge traders in the business.

Report this

By truedigger3, May 19, 2010 at 6:08 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous wrote:
“I explained twice why I omitted the Jews from the list of those who killed others in the name of a god”
____________________________________________________


Shenonymous,

I DID NOT ASK YOU any question about any killing list?
I asked you why you omitted the Jews from your list of all the ethnic and religious groups who benefitted from COMMODITIES trading?

Report this

By elisalouisa, May 19, 2010 at 5:36 pm Link to this comment

Part II Nemesis 5/19 response

Nem:  .  .  .No, survival isn’t (just) important; survival is everything. All of your great, feely touchy ideals will not be implemented because unless you are willing and able to defend your way of life against those that would destroy it ain’t gonna happin! 

elisa: Feely touchy ideals? You show me where I ever used such words. I did not, further more, what do you exactly mean by that? Life is tough. Should one be willing to destroy anyone and anything in order to survive?
Example:Soldier is on the battlefield where an attacked is taking place. Friend is hit and cannot retreat. Sure survival for the soldier is ignoring his friend. Soldier going the few feet to taken his friend back with him does endanger his life. Should he make a run ensuring survival or does he take a 50% chance of survival and reach out for his friend? The latter is what those in
the military are awarded medals for. Yet according to your pivotal life doctrine he show run and never look back.
   

Nem:Your personal thoughts do not continue to exist after your death except through those whom you may have influenced or if they’re stored in some memory storage device e.g. books, notes, etc.

elisa: We are down to the nitty-gritty aren’t we? So you know that personal thoughts do not continue to exist after death . . Those are your words not mine and I cannot speak in those specific terms. That spark that is within, that computer chip that not all the Bill Gates’ in the world could understand,
continues after our body ceases to function. That is the spark that brought life
into our body. While that spark was the center of our being it programmed all
that took place, in every aspect and left the body advanced or regressed
depending on how our lives were spent. Does this spark enter a common pool?
Is it recycled in some way? One could only hazard a guess. Just as the seasons
follow one another and the seed that is born in one season is reborn the
following season, so it is with that spark. There is no beginning or
end.

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By elisalouisa, May 19, 2010 at 5:29 pm Link to this comment

Your personal thoughts do not continue to exist after your death except through those whom you may have influenced or if they’re stored in some memory storage device e.g. books, notes, etc.

 

A response to your 5/19 post Nemesis Part I

Nem: Have you given any thought to the fact that if all you anti-war proponents had an ounce of the courage and conviction those of the 1960s had that not only might the Bush wars be over, but that they may have been prevented?

elisa: You blame the Pacifists for the fact that the wars are not over!! You even suggest that the wars may have been prevented if Pacifists have the courage of their convictions? Something has definitely caused a cerebral malfunction Nem. Time to take advantage of your new Medicare plan and go in for a complete physical. These wars will not be over until someone gives us a real fight or America has global domination and the power/elite rule. That is what our gallant young men and women are fighting and dying for. The warmongers have chosen not to have a draft, for obvious reasons. They send the military personnel back to the war zone again and again, making zombies out of the gallant military due to multiple tours.  Some are part of the National Guard who didn’t count on this many years ago when they signed up for service at a time when they were unsettled and perhaps wanted to see the world. Now years later, having family and gainful employment they are called back to duty.  Drones are also of put into use in our wars, even if inaccurate. Life is not valued where the Muslims are concerned as far as our leadership goes. What do they call it?  Collateral damage, very high among the Muslim population. According to Cheney, others and you also I suspect, the “slow and stupid” are being eliminated from the species’ genetic pool through the wars initiated by our country. Where is the fine line drawn as to who is slow and stupid, especially as time goes on., Could one perhaps be your offspring?  Of course not.

Nem: AmeriCorp citizens had better wake the f—k up are they too, might find themselves held down in the street getting the poop kicked out of them.

elisa: As to our citizens waking up, how can they when they have deliberately been put to sleep. What do you think MSM is all about? AmeriCorp doesn’t really give a damn about the citizens. The power elite wants global control. That is first and foremost, not John Q. Public. Our representatives vote according to the wishes of the power elite and Wall street.

Nem:The only gene pool that isn’t being purified by elimination of the slow and stupid is the Homo sapiens’ gene pool. There are reasons people vote Republican and Democrat. 

elisa: I cannot deny there is some truth to the first comment although war does this to some extent.  Your second comment of course is true. What is one to read into the two sentences being side by side? There shall always be those more savvy and quick, more cunning and ruthless, such as Dick Cheney.  Should such people rule and decide who lives and who does not? How far do we carry this? As more and more people are eliminated, I think that is what you are suggesting, where does it end and who decides? The world you suggest is devoid of feeling. Mondo Cane.

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By Anarcissie, May 19, 2010 at 4:08 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael—Don’t get too excited.  I quote the Bible and other scriptures from time to (hopefully apposite) time.  But true believers oft disdain such pick-and-choose dilettantes as I.

Sometimes I advance a corollary: “Insult no one, for those who need to be insulted will insult themselves.”  You can see how much I am heard either way.

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By Shenonymous, May 19, 2010 at 4:06 pm Link to this comment

Sorry, some problem with the formatting did not bring these websites
up correctly and for some odd reason the first post here doubled up.
Wierd.  Sorry again.

For Iraq dead count:  See http://markhumphrys.com/iraq.dead.html
For Islam: http://markhumphrys.com/islam.killings.html#historical
For the murder of Kurds: http://www.yeziditruth.org/home

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By Shenonymous, May 19, 2010 at 4:03 pm Link to this comment

Much obliged you printed some of my May 13 2:11 original post
on this topic. But you neglected this part…

Being a moral person ought not to be on account of some fear
of ?horrid reprisal from a supernatural being, if there is such a thing.
?Hubris is such an arrogant accusation to wave a diaper of
?unsubstantiated failure of secularism at a competitor to religionists by
?a religionist.  What “all” has been done before?  Hitler’s fascism, ah but
?he was a Christian.  Stalin, I’ll give that one and Mao.  But they are ?
nothing compared to all the Popes who waged war and hypocrisy, and ?
their many Crusades, or the Saxony Thirty-Year’s War of the 17th c. ?
Reforming Protestants.  The Catholics despised the Humanists and ?
accused the Humanistas (my idiom) of violent warring, but what they ?
really meant was the Humanists cultivated new methods of thinking ?
about reality, human centered instead of the gray beard in the sky ?
center.  It was only through their passive teachings, much like the ?
ancient Greek sophists who finally came to be persecuted by the ?
pantheistic political parties that the Reformational religionists got their ?
violent combustion.  We surely don’t want to forget the recent Civil War ?
between the Irish Catholics and Protestants. Or before that the French ?
Wars of the 16th century.  And all the bloody campaigns conquering ?
indigenous peoples the New World, Northern and Southern continents, ?
and Iraq and onward.  Ah yes, the truly peaceful religionists.  I will now ?
sleep well tonight remembering that New Zealand, a mainly non-?
religious country, ranked the most peaceful in the world last year, with ?
Denmark, Norway, Iceland, Austria and Sweden following in order right ?
behind.  All pretty much non-religious.  Now this is hardly miserable ?
failure.”

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By Shenonymous, May 19, 2010 at 4:01 pm Link to this comment

Then grateful to have the opportunity to repeat it here again too…
the May 14 at 10:13 am, refers back to the original May 13 2:11
post to provide the references Anarcissie rightfully requested.

”Evidence is provided by the names of historians I listed…:

For Iraq dead count:  See? http://markhumphrys.com/iraq.dead.html
For Islam:?http://markhumphrys.com/islam.killings.html#historical
For the murder of Kurds:?http://www.yeziditruth.org/home
Research for number of people killed by Christians since Biblical times: 
?(Did I read all of these?  No.  Especially the ones in German, I don’t ?
read German, but you are welcome to.)
K.Deschner, Abermals krähte der Hahn, Stuttgart 1962.
K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987.
P.W.Edbury, Crusade and Settlement, Cardiff Univ. Press 1985.
S.Eidelberg, The Jews and the Crusaders, Madison 1977.
Hunter, M., Wootton, D., Atheism from the Reformation to the ?
Enlightenment, Oxford 1992.
Schröder-Kappus, E., Wagner, W., Michael Sattler. Ein Märtyrer in ?
Rottenburg, Tübingen, TVT Media 1992.
H.C.Lea, The Inquisition of the Middle Ages, New York 1961.
M.Margolis, A.Marx, A History of the Jewish People. ?A.Manhattan, The
Vatican’s Holocaust, Springfield 1986.
See also ?V.Dedijer, The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, Buffalo NY,
1992.
J.T.Noonan, Contraception: A History of its Treatment by the Catholic ?
Theologians and Canonists, Cambridge/Mass., 1992.
Newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany, 10/10/96, 12:00.
D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992.
German news magazine Der Spiegel, no.49, 12/2/1996.
F.Turner, Beyond Geography, New York 1980.
H.Wollschläger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zürich ?
1973.
Estimates on the number of executed witches:?N.Cohn, Europe’s Inner
Demons: An Enquiry Inspired by the Great Witch ??Hunt, Frogmore 1976,
253.
R.H.Robbins, The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology, New ??
York 1959, 180.
J.B.Russell, Witchcraft in the Middle Ages, Ithaca/NY 1972, 39.
H.Zwetsloot, Friedrich Spee und die Hexenprozesse, Trier 1954, 56.”

I explained twice why I omitted the Jews from the list of those who
killed others in the name of a god: first May 13 at 10:50 am, then
again mentioned later again at 4:06 pm.  Please name a war or
slaughter by the Jews done in the name of Jehovah.

I gave sources and you do not.  You merely rant and call me names
and besmirch my character.  You are a fraud.  Otherwise, where are
your sources TD3?  Answer Night-Gaunt if you don’t want
to answer me.

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By Shenonymous, May 19, 2010 at 4:00 pm Link to this comment

Then grateful to have the opportunity to repeat it here again too…
the May 14 at 10:13 am, refers back to the original May 13 2:11
post to provide the references Anarcissie rightfully requested.

”Evidence is provided by the names of historians I listed…:

For Iraq dead count:  See?http://markhumphrys.com/iraq.dead.html
For Islam:?http://markhumphrys.com/islam.killings.html#historical
For the murder of Kurds:?http://www.yeziditruth.org/home
Research for number of people killed by Christians since Biblical times: 
?(Did I read all of these?  No.  Especially the ones in German, I don’t ?
read German, but you are welcome to.)
K.Deschner, Abermals krähte der Hahn, Stuttgart 1962.
K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987.
P.W.Edbury, Crusade and Settlement, Cardiff Univ. Press 1985.
S.Eidelberg, The Jews and the Crusaders, Madison 1977.
Hunter, M., Wootton, D., Atheism from the Reformation to the ?
Enlightenment, Oxford 1992.
Schröder-Kappus, E., Wagner, W., Michael Sattler. Ein Märtyrer in ?
Rottenburg, Tübingen, TVT Media 1992.
H.C.Lea, The Inquisition of the Middle Ages, New York 1961.
M.Margolis, A.Marx, A History of the Jewish People. ?A.Manhattan, The
Vatican’s Holocaust, Springfield 1986.
See also ?V.Dedijer, The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, Buffalo NY,
1992.
J.T.Noonan, Contraception: A History of its Treatment by the Catholic ?
Theologians and Canonists, Cambridge/Mass., 1992.
Newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany, 10/10/96, 12:00.
D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992.
German news magazine Der Spiegel, no.49, 12/2/1996.
F.Turner, Beyond Geography, New York 1980.
H.Wollschläger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zürich ?
1973.
Estimates on the number of executed witches:?N.Cohn, Europe’s Inner
Demons: An Enquiry Inspired by the Great Witch ??Hunt, Frogmore 1976,
253.
R.H.Robbins, The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology, New ??
York 1959, 180.
J.B.Russell, Witchcraft in the Middle Ages, Ithaca/NY 1972, 39.
H.Zwetsloot, Friedrich Spee und die Hexenprozesse, Trier 1954, 56.”

I explained twice why I omitted the Jews from the list of those who
killed others in the name of a god: first May 13 at 10:50 am, then
again mentioned later again at 4:06 pm.  Please name a war or
slaughter by the Jews done in the name of Jehovah.

I gave sources and you do not.  You merely rant and call me names
and besmirch my character.  You are a fraud.  Otherwise, where are
your sources TD3?  Answer Night-Gaunt if you don’t want
to answer me.

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By truedigger3, May 19, 2010 at 3:35 pm Link to this comment

Re: Night-Gaunt, May 19 at 2:10 pm


Night-Gaunt,

Here are two quotes from Shenonymous in this thread.
I couldn’t find her quote about attributing most of the slave trade to the Arabs. I looked for it in other threads, but some how I couldn’t find it.
I am sure it is there somewhere.
__________________________________________________
By Shenonymous, May 14 at 8:25 pm #
..............
The foregone about the number of people killed in the name of the Christian God does not include the number killed by Islam in the name of Allah. For instance, it is estimated that 23 million Yezidis (Kurds) have been killed by Moslems and their other self-proclaimed enemies during the past 700 years. According to Bill Warner, the director of the Center for the Study of Political Islam, who probably has a bias but I don’t expect to get any legitimate figures from the Muslim community, Islam is the greatest killer of all time, worse than Christianity, fascism or communism: “Jihad destroyed a Christian Middle East and a Christian North Africa.
___________________________________________________

By Shenonymous, May 13 at 2:11 am #

..................
It does appear according to all news reports on the commodities marketplace, that the “super religious and oil rich Muslim countries,” such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, The United Arab Emirates, Dubai, are doing better than fine in the commodity domain, and definitely without help from secularists.
That does not discount Armenia (Christian), Morocco (Muslim), Malaysia (Chinese folk, i.e., Taoism and Confucianism), North Korea (Juche, created by the government where all North Koreans are members and Cheodoism which is a mixed pot of shamanic, Taoism, Korean style Buddhism and even some Christianity thrown in), Thailand (Buddhism), Romania (Greek Orthodox/Roman Catholic), Brazil (Roman Catholic), and China (mainly atheism with a smattering of Bon, and Buddhism) as being among the least affected by the US financial crisis.


———————————————————————

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By OzarkMichael, May 19, 2010 at 12:01 pm Link to this comment

I said: I sense that after all the brawling to uphold integrity, surely everyone’s integrity has been upheld by now. Except mine, which as a conservative fundamentalist Christian is so frequently devalued on Truthdig.

Anarcissie responded: As to degradation, “Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth….”  (Matt 15:11)

Ah, yes. Thank you! As captain Kirk said to the young vulcan officer, “You go right on quoting Star Fleet regulations to me.”

Oh, and welcome aboard, Anarcissie.

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By nemesis2010, May 19, 2010 at 11:38 am Link to this comment

III.

By elisalouisa, May 18 at 8:38 pm

”Are the rules different for a nation who sees an enemy around every corner?”

Yes! That’s what I’ve been trying to get into that head of yours for a month now. Might makes right! Why do you think the U.S. only invades nations that cannot adequately defend themselves?

Why do you think we haven’t attacked Iran yet? Because those in power know that Iran will not be the pushover Iraq and Afghanistan were. They also have to consider those two other big dogs on the street, China and Russia.

By elisalouisa, May 18 at 8:38 pm

”In eternity time is no longer. Thus the eternal. It’s an exclusive club,  the activities are not discussed with inquirers. You must be a resident or on the waiting list.”

eternity (î-tûr´nî-tê) noun
plural eternities
1. Time without beginning or end; infinite time.
2. The state or quality of being eternal.
3. a. The timeless state following death. b. The afterlife; immortality.
4. A very long or seemingly endless time: waited in the dentist’s office for an eternity.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language.

Evidence?

By elisalouisa, May 18 at 8:38 pm

”I work under the definition that to prove
something implies it can never be wrong, which is different.”

If one has a prime mover connected to a generator, with a fuel supply, operating at the required speed, and functioning according to design, that generator will produce electricity, it’s never wrong! If the criteria are met, the electricity is produced each and every time that generator is running. We can’t see it nor can we smell it but it’s there and according to her definition it’s proven because its never wrong. We know the science behind all of it. There are scientific theories and mathematical models that explain it, there are laws that, when properly adhered to, allow us to handle and harness that energy, and it’s never wrong. It’s always there when the criteria are met.


Draw a circle and put a dot in the very center. Start drawing lines from the dot in the center to the circumference. Keep doing it for an infinite amount of lines, imagine each line getting thinner and thinner to allow for an infinite amount more of lines. Now draw a larger circle around the first circle and extend the lines, you’ll find that the infinite amount of lines in the first circle aren’t an infinite amount in the second circle. Now draw a larger third circle around the first two circles and continue extend the lines from the center of the first circle and you’ll see that the infinite amount of lines in the first circle are even less of an infinite amount of lines in the third. That should give you an idea of the problems with infinity. Georg Canter went nuts and died in a sanitarium, impoverished and suffering from malnutrition, look him up. 

Word games and god of the gap defenses are tired and wearisome, some might even say slow and stupid.

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By nemesis2010, May 19, 2010 at 11:34 am Link to this comment

II.

By elisalouisa, May 18 at 8:38 pm

”Is torture that such types condone morally correct?”

I personally do not believe it moral for an enlightened nation to condone torture as a matter of approved policy. However, human beings have always used torture. We’re the only species capable of not only devising torture but also imagining how the victim will feel when being tortured. I guess when you think about it perhaps the Hebrews were right; we are made in the image of their god who on page after page in the Old Testament is ordering genocide, rape, pillaging, child genitalia mutilation, slavery, and a host of other evil.

The biggest proponents of torture in Western civilization have been religious institutions and/or “believers.” Evil people will do evil and good people will do good, but if you want a good person to do evil, give him that Olde Tyme religion.

By elisalouisa, May 18 at 8:38 pm

”What about those drones that swoop down and kill indiscriminately?”

What about them? All war is indiscriminate killing for crying out loud. Have you a clue what the KIA and other fatally numbers would be without those drones? War is nasty f—king business and there is no way to make it pretty. That’s why the U.S. Congress should take their duties as detailed under the U.S. Constitution seriously. War powers were purposely placed into the hands of Congress and not the Executive for that very reason.

By elisalouisa, May 18 at 8:38 pm

” Where does it all end?”

Where does what all end; war? Are you serious? You couldn’t even offer advice on what to do about those animals caning that 17 year old girl and you expect that you have the right answers on how to end war? Jeebus on my Ritz cracker!

By elisalouisa, May 18 at 8:38 pm

”Survival is important but at what cost emotionally and physically are you suggesting that we take it to?”

No, survival isn’t important; survival is everything. All of your great, feely touchy ideals will not be implemented because unless you are willing and able to defend your way of life against those that would destroy it ain’t gonna happin!

Your personal thoughts do not continue to exist after your death except through those whom you may have influenced or if they’re stored in some memory storage device e.g. books, notes, etc.

If you can present evidence to your claim, please do so a.s.a.p. Evidence, not subjective, feely, touchy, bullshit.

By elisalouisa, May 18 at 8:38 pm

”What about the military that return from battle shell shocked and battle weary? Should they be put into battle in that condition?”

When you sign up in the military elisa you are forfeiting your rights as a citizen and an individual. I regretted signing up in boot camp while waiting for the D.I. to start processing us. I said to myself: “Nemesis, you have really f—ked up this time.” And I didn’t even have a clue yet.

Have you given any though to the fact that if all those chicken hawks enlisted they wouldn’t have to be pulling multiple tours? Have you given any thought to the fact that if all you anti-war proponents had an ounce of the courage and conviction those of the 1960s had that not only might the Bush wars be over, but that they may have been prevented?

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By nemesis2010, May 19, 2010 at 11:30 am Link to this comment

I.

By elisalouisa, May 18 at 8:38 pm

”Elisa: Wrong. The hunted may be more trusting and not have the cunning of the Predator.”



The slow and the stupid are the ones being eliminated from its specie’s gene pool. Predators look for easy kills, the slow and the stupid. All those skills have to do with intelligence, instincts and evolutionary predator armament.

Predators prefer to eat stupid animals
http://news.mongabay.com/2006/0802-predators.html

The only gene pool that isn’t being purified by elimination of the slow and stupid is the Homo sapiens’ gene pool. There are reasons people vote Republican and Democrat. Can you honestly look at the U.S. Congress and fail to see that the really, really stupid and slow have benefited by our ability to master our environment?

By elisalouisa, May 18 at 8:38 pm

”No one can answer those questions for you. I gave my impression of what was in the making as to the future. I did not answer the questions.”

They may be what you asked but it isn’t how you asked them.

”If survival is priority #1 is there no line as to immoral action? That is what you are really saying. -elisalouisa

You’ve just told be what I’m really saying even though I haven’t had a chance to respond. That’s a straw man argument and easily knocked down.

By elisalouisa, May 18 at 8:38 pm

”Will you maim, murder, and commit other heinous acts to survive?”

I was in the U.S. Marine Corps from 1965-1969, what do you think? The answer to your question without adding qualifiers—because there are qualifiers—is yes, without even hesitating and so would you given the right circumstances.

You are making easy judgments from the comfort of your home. When you are in a firefight you aren’t thinking about freedom and the Constitution or morals; you’re thinking about killing that other MFer before he sends you home in a body bag.

 

By elisalouisa, May 18 at 8:38 pm

”Take the U.S. and the Dick Cheney leader types that we seem to have more and more of these days, is that the type of person you want to see more of down the road?”

No, but want I want and what is are not the same. One has to play with the hand one is dealt.

If given a choice, do you think that the young girl being publicly caned in the video for having been “suspected” of having been seen with a man not of her family would prefer to live in the U.S. of A.—even with that village idiot as president—or in that Muslim, male-dominated, shit hole?

You live in a country that as bad as it is, the poor weight like 20 million kajillon pounds. AmeriCorp citizens had better wake the f—k up are they too, might find themselves held down in the street getting the poop kicked out of them.

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By Anarcissie, May 19, 2010 at 10:56 am Link to this comment

As to degradation, “Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth….”  (Matt 15:11)

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By OzarkMichael, May 19, 2010 at 10:28 am Link to this comment

I sense that after all the brawling to uphold integrity, surely everyone’s integrity has been upheld by now. Except mine, which as a conservative fundamentalist Christian is so frequently devalued on Truthdig. But I choose to be here so i blame no-one but myself.

truedigger3 said: Also read about the history of Arabs (the moores) in spain where their rule was most enlighened and inclusive to all groups where Muslims, Jews and Christians lived in harmony and prosperity.

I have read it and I think the “Golden Age of Andalusia” is quite exaggerated for multicultural motivations. Perhaps the motivation is noble, but that does not justify erasing the truth. When people suffer the story must be told. Unless of course its the wrong people, then apparently we just draw the sheet over their face and dump them into the forgetting sea.

Also, the Arabs through all their long history were the most tolerant and acccomodating to all different ethnic and religious minorities is quite a claim. You enlarge the exaggerated Golden Age of Muslim Spain into worldwide benign Muslim rule everywhere and at all times… this is completely a mythic viewpoint.

The bad times and problems with Muslim rule cannot even be remembered anymore. They are forgotten. Well, I will not disturb that.

Let us now continue our review of the Inquisition, which occured in Christian history. I would like to investigate the resistance to the Inquisition which helped end it. This will bring to light some important developments in the history of Christianity. i think there are some lessons to learn.

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By Night-Gaunt, May 19, 2010 at 10:10 am Link to this comment

Truthdigger3 before each inditement could you have some quotes from Shenonoymous because I don’t recall her saying any of those things. What has happened to you? You’re so full of bile and obfuscatory lies now! All you showed was your own writing not her including time and where she wrote it. Why didn’t you do due diligence in that? So far it is just you saying she said it. There is no way to check it. You made sure of that. Now go back to where you found them, cut & paste the time and tell us the forum so we can independently verify it. See what I mean? Can you understand what I am saying and how it is important to prove what you say? Doing so would prove it and then I would have to agree with you. Is it possible for you to do so? [This is what researchers do.]

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, May 19, 2010 at 9:09 am Link to this comment

Aniciossie lets talk of fizzling religion instead of
the dellbert side step, which I perceive as planned
intervention and manipulation by Sodium for has he
contributed anything to the discussion? Seemed this
thread was going quite well before the food fight
and this swooping in like a one winged Buzzard seems
suspiciously like another poster named Sinbad!

OM talked of the Inquisition, what say you OM?

Again this seems one of Hedges better articles, but
seemingly only in my opinion?

From what I have read, the churches in Europe are
empty of followers, this may be a trend here?

Hedges comment;
“A Gallup poll in 2006 found that “the more
frequently an American attends church, the less
likely he or she is to say the war was a mistake.”

A friend of mine was fired as a paster for speaking
out against the war!

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By truedigger3, May 19, 2010 at 8:53 am Link to this comment

Re: By Shenonymous, May 19 at 9:24 am #


Shenonymous wrote:
“If the fact that I’ve become better at fending off and dispersing attacks is because I’ve learned better how to deal with the sniper misogynists
on these forums.”
___________________________________________________

Shenonymous,

You are lying again.! You are being attacked and have been attacked because you are a liar, and a fabricator of events especially in service of the power-that-be and the Zionist cabal and not because your attackers are misogynists. Many of who attacked you were women.
Now you will tell us that they were jealous women!!.
You are like the people who blame racism for any attack on Obama for his lies , bullshitting and broken promises.

As I said I am not a Muslim and I was born to a Christian Eastern Orthodox family, but now I am a hard core atheist and have been that way fore more than half a century.
With that said, I can say, recently, most of your lies and fabrications are devoted to slandering the Arabs/Muslims and their history. 
But fortunately, your lies are so blatant, dumb and laughable, and any one with common sense and some knowledge of history and current events can easily detect your bullshit.
Some of your recent lies which were OFF THE TOPIC and came out of the blue without any justification for introducing them:

1) You tried to blame the Arabs for most of slave trade although the number of slaves traded by the Arabs is minuscule compared to the huge numbers by the millions traded by the English, Spanish, Portugese and Dutch for the Cotton, Tobaco and Sugar cane plantations in the Americas. Most of the slaves traded by the Arabs were for domestic help and harem for the rich people.
2) You tried to blame the Arabs for the recent shenanigans in the commodities markets, although most of the trading and speculations was done by Wall Street biggies i.e Godman Sacks, Morgan Stanely et al…
You sensed that was too blatant lie, so you blamed as minor partners in the speculations, every ethnic and relgious group in the planet except the Jews!!! Which again is laughable!!!
3) Although the Arabs through all their long history were the most tolerant and acccomodating to all different ethnic and religious minorities, you tried to portray them as nothing but atrocious killers involved in continuous gonocide. One of your blatant lies is that the Arabs killed 26 million Kurds which no one heard of it before you wrote it. By the way the leader of the Arabs in twelvth Century who defeated the crusaders and set the stage for their final expulsion from the Middle East was a Kurd and his name was, Sultan Slah El Din. Also read about the history of Arabs (the moores) in spain where their rule was most enlighened and inclusive to all groups where Muslims, Jews and Christians lived in harmony and prosperity.
Comparing the history of Arabs with the history of the Europeans and their atrocities in the Middle East during the Crusades, and against the Jews in Europe, and the millions who were killled during the reformation wars, and the thousand who were burned alive, and their atrocities and brutalities in the Americas, the Arabs willl look like angels and saints.
I have to respond to your blatant lies.

Weefeller,
You are STILL not funny. Give up and try to be serious for a change.

Night-Gaunt,

I am not sure what got into you lately??. You have changned drastically.!! Your obfuscation is blatant and lame!

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By Shenonymous, May 19, 2010 at 8:45 am Link to this comment

By Anarcissie, May 19 at 12:19 pm #
I wonder if you all think your personal quarrels are all that
interesting to anyone else?

I certainly don’t but I will not be degraded and if it takes forum time
for me to feel my integrity has been kept intact, that is what it will
take.  Unfortunately there are warped and petty minds who think they
can get away with butchering verbal attacks, and they really veer me
off topic, that is plain to see.  That I can be veered is just the way I
am built.  I do consciously try to fight against that impulse, but I
almost always fail.  I digress to bring out my own verbal artillery.  I do
not desist until I fell vindicated. 

There are occasional other minds who see into this hatchet man
dynamic and speak up, often very eloquently, but mostly participants
are only interested in hearing their own voices.  The question of
morality does not even enter their heads.  Morality being defined by
how respectful humans treat other humans.  But there is often a gang
shows up who loves to swim in the swill and naturally I feel I have to
contend with all of the rotted pig brains. 

It would be lovely to get back to fizzling religion and finding oneself
stuck with Nietz.  There is so much more to mine for.  Pick and shovel
anyone?

Going off to do damage in academia, right now. It is winding down for
the semester.  And I’m sure you are eager to know I will be back. LOL

Leefeller - by head do you mean the toilet?

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, May 19, 2010 at 8:30 am Link to this comment

Always being the butt of all jokes, the butt finally
had enough, so one day said to the head;

“you aren’t funny,.... how would you like it if I made
you the head of all jokes”?

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, May 19, 2010 at 8:19 am Link to this comment

I wonder if you all think your personal quarrels are all that interesting to anyone else.

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By elisalouisa, May 19, 2010 at 6:13 am Link to this comment

We do miss you Folktruther. How far things will go? That is the real question.

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By Sodium-Na, May 19, 2010 at 5:49 am Link to this comment

Mr.“National Treasur”,

What you have written is not funny: TRY HARDER.

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