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A Monster of Our Own Creation

Posted on May 3, 2011
AP / Al-Jazeera

A 2001 video image shows Osama bin Laden at an undisclosed location.

By Robert Scheer

He was our kind of guy until he wasn’t, an ally during the Cold War until he no longer served our purposes. The problem with Osama bin Laden was not that he was a fanatical holy warrior; we liked his kind just fine as long as the infidels he targeted were not us but Russians and the secular Afghans in power in Kabul whom the Soviets backed. 

But when bin Laden turned against us, he morphed into a figure of evil incarnate, and now three decades after we first decided to use him and other imported Muslim zealots for our Cold War purposes, we feel cleansed by his death of any responsibility for his carnage. We may make mistakes but we are never in the wrong. USA! USA!

Kind of like when the CIA assigned the Mafia to assassinate Fidel Castro and the Mafiosi turned out to have their own agenda, or when Pentagon experts anointed the Catholic nutcase Ngo Dinh Diem as the George Washington of predominately Buddhist South Vietnam before they felt the need to execute him. A similar fate was suffered by Saddam Hussein, whose infamous Baghdad handshake with Donald Rumsfeld stamped him as our agent in the war to defeat the ayatollahs of Iran.

Awkward, I know, to point out that bin Laden was another of those monsters of our creation, one of those Muslim “freedom fighters” that President Ronald Reagan celebrated for having responded to the CIA’s call to kill the Soviets in Afghanistan. That holy crusade against infidels was financed by Saudi Arabia and armed with U.S. weapons to oppose a secular Afghan government with Soviet backing but before Soviet troops had crossed the border. In short, it was an ill-fated and unjustifiable intervention by the U.S. into another nation’s internal affairs. 

Don’t trust me on this one. Just read the 1996 memoir by former Carter administration security official and current Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, a book touted by its publisher as exposing “Carter’s never-before-revealed covert support to Afghan mujahedeen—six months before the Soviets invaded.” This dismissal of the claimed Cold War excuse for the backing of the mujahedeen was acknowledged by President Jimmy Carter’s national security adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinski, who, when asked by the French magazine Le Nouvel Observateur if he regretted “having given arms and advice to future terrorists,” answered that he did not: “What is most important to the history of the world? Some stirred-up Muslims or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the Cold War?”


Square, Site wide

That was said three years before some of those “stirred-up Muslims” like bin Laden and the alleged 9/11 plot mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed—whom bin Laden financed, and whom he first met in Afghanistan when both were U.S.-backed fighters—launched their deadly attacks on the United States. The cost of the American response to that assault has spiraled upward for a decade. A defense budget that the first President Bush had attempted to cut drastically because the Cold War was over was pushed to its highest peacetime level by the second President Bush and now with three wars under way equals the military expenditures of all of the world’s other nations combined.

But while Libya and Iraq have oil to exploit, what will be the argument for continuing the interminable war in Afghanistan now that bin Laden is gone? White House national security experts had already conceded that there were fewer than a hundred scattered al-Qaida operatives in Afghanistan, and that these were incapable of mounting anti-U.S. attacks. Clearly, what remains of al-Qaida is no longer based in Afghanistan, as the location of bin Laden’s hiding place, in a military hub in Pakistan, demonstrated. Nor is there any indication that the Taliban we are fighting in Afghanistan are anything but homegrown fighters with motives and leadership far removed from the designs of the late bin Laden.

It is time to concede that the mess that is Afghanistan is a result of our cynical uses of those people and their land for purposes that have nothing to do with their needs or aspirations. Even if bin Laden had been killed in some forlorn cave in Afghanistan, it would not have made the case that he was using that country as a base. But the fact that he was in an area amply populated by the very Pakistani military and intelligence forces that we have armed, and that should have been able to easily nab him, gives the lie to the claim that Afghanistan is vital territory to be secured in what two administrations have now chosen to define as the war on terrorism. 

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By Inherit The Wind, May 15, 2011 at 1:20 pm Link to this comment

Ginny, I’m happy to do it.  Right is right and wrong is wrong.

We play hardball here, a rough and tough street fight, and if one can’t take it, then that’s too bad.  But there are some lines that shouldn’t be crossed.

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By Virginia777, May 13, 2011 at 9:38 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind:


Cut the bullshit and stop trying to weasel out of responsibility for a crude attempt to insult and intimidate a woman!”

Hey, thanks ITW.

I know we have had our disagreements in the past, but its very cool of you to put those aside, and call out Lew who is demeaning female commentator’s with his juvenile name-calling.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 13, 2011 at 6:05 pm Link to this comment


Cut the bullshit and stop trying to weasel out of responsibility for a crude attempt to insult and intimidate a woman!

“Girlie” is not “Girl” and the only person you can fool into that is…you.  And a “girl” is a juvenile female.

Implications of the term AS YOU USED IT AND INTENDED IT, is to disparage and dismiss as irrelevant the women who post here, so you can avoid actually having to consider their arguments.

Further attempts to bait me are just, well, flat-out stupid.  Everyone here (with you as the possible exception), knows I’m a father and a husband.  I’ve seen my share of hard knocks and spent years as a construction worker before I returned to school and landed a desk job.  I’ve been threatened with every kind of mayhem by (former) posters here, and I’m still here.  And “Inherit the Wind” refers to my favorite stage play and dramatic movie. I look a lot more like the (older) Spencer Tracy than Katherine Hepburn—at any time.

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By MarthaA, May 13, 2011 at 11:28 am Link to this comment

Lew Ciefer, May 11 at 1:31 pm,

Of course I know where the Political Right and the Political Left came from, do you?

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By Virginia777, May 12, 2011 at 11:27 pm Link to this comment

Lew Ciefer:

“@ Virginia777:

(please see above definition)”

If you are trying to impress me, you have failed. What a joke you are. Lol.

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By Lew Ciefer, May 12, 2011 at 11:35 am Link to this comment

@ Mr. or Ms ITW (Whatever is the case since ITW is gender neutral):

Please note:

girl (gûrl) noun
1. A female child.
2. An immature or inexperienced woman, especially a young woman.
3. A daughter: our youngest girl.
4. Informal. A grown woman: a night out with the girls.
5. A female who comes from or belongs to a particular place: a city girl.
6. Offensive. A female servant, such as a maid.
7. A female sweetheart: cadets escorting their girls to the ball.

[Middle English girle, child, girl.]

Given the above and judging from the sureness of your claim please tell us which of the definitions for “girl” I have in mind when I write girlie. I’ll give you a hint; it’s not #6 or #7. What is a god doing here commenting? I ask because only a god ... or perhaps a demon or devil ... can possibly know what’s in the heart of another.


@ Virginia777:

(please see above definition)

Has the Left become so deliri et insani that to refer to a woman as a woman is now considered sexist?

Are you and that ITW person a thing?

sexism (sèk´sîz´em) noun
1. Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.
2. Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.
- sex´ist adjective & noun

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

I believe in many ways women are superior to men; especially with respect to such character traits as arrogance, viciousness, duplicity, evilness, connivance, oppressiveness and tyranny. Why do people assume that if women are superior to men it always has to be with regards to positive traits? That’s not sexist. That’s a legitimate question. If you are going to contest that then you’ll have to provide evidence that women are indeed superior in virtue—as well as any other traits that may apply—than men and the reasons why that is so ... because we are nothing more than the female and male specimens of the same animal species.

Men and women are not equal in all things. If you or any others have a complaint about that I suggest you take it up with Nature or whatever Creator-of-mankind you worship. I’m but a simple man trying his best, in his waning days, to make sense of this topsy-turvy world.

Can you direct me to any Holy Scriptures of any religious faith other than Communism and Socialism that claim women are equal or superior to men in all regards?

Heh… I just remembered something ... doesn’t “woman” mean “wounded man”? And I’ve been told that it is in the sense of “weaker” as in need to be protected by males. And if memory serves that comes from the Holy Scriptures of the Chosen People of the One True God, YHWH!

Please, correct me if I’m wrong. I’m not a sexist and have been taught much by many different “women” throughout my life.

“Women themselves, for the most part, think of themselves as the sensible sex, whose business it is to undo the harm that comes of men’s impetuous follies. For my part I distrust all generalisations about women, favourable and unfavourable, masculine and feminine, ancient and modern; all alike, I should say, result from paucity of experience.” -Bertrand Russell

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By Inherit The Wind, May 12, 2011 at 6:32 am Link to this comment

He’s just trying to rile you into a mistake by calling you “girlie”.  It’s a shit tactic and anyone who does it is, IMHO, a sexist shit. He thinks he has more brains because he has balls to keep them in.

I don’t have to agree with you to be pissed off by the tactic.

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By Virginia777, May 11, 2011 at 10:29 pm Link to this comment

Lew Ciefer:

“I’m a Christian/Muslim/Hindu/Satanic Cultist non believer.”

Add sexist pig to that list.


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By Virginia777, May 11, 2011 at 10:28 pm Link to this comment

Lew Ciefer:

“No, not always girlie.”

Thank you, parrot.

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By Lew Ciefer, May 11, 2011 at 1:34 pm Link to this comment

By Virginia777, May 10 at 11:05 pm

Do you always call women girls?

No, not always girlie. smile

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By Lew Ciefer, May 11, 2011 at 1:31 pm Link to this comment

By MarthaA, May 10 at 2:54 pm
You appear to be a Republican Christian Righter blaming the Left,
when it was the Right that did all the destruction during the
Crusades, not the Left,

I’m a Christian/Muslim/Hindu/Satanic Cultist non believer.

I’ve no political affiliation whatsoever and I wouldn’t participate in such a senseless act as voting if your life depended on it.

Do you have a clue where the political term “Right and Left” comes from? How can you have a viable opinion if you don’t even know that little bit? You need to guard what you say Martha. There’s is absolutely no way that your statement about the Crusades can make any sense. Check it out and you’ll see why.

What this tells me is that you’ve little understanding about politics. Your comments and obvious lack of understanding lead me to believe that the main reason you’re inclined to the left is because you’ve sold out for reasons of personal profit—someone, some political group, etc. has promised you something that you feel you are entitled to. You’re going to be very disappointed. Communists and Socialists hate the poor and impoverished even more than conservatives. In the end it is always the poor who are squashed like a cockroach. No religion has cost more human lives and caused more misery and terror than socialism and communism. 

Make a note of the following: It is never, in reality, Left vs. Right. That’s the façade. The initial battles are to determine which particular group of the Ruling Oligarch will hold the reins of Power. Once that is determined life within the State grows increasingly worse for the majority that is coerced to support it and increasingly better for those few that constitute the State ruling elite and who control and manipulate policy for their benefit. There is not a single exception to this in human history. It is always, and without fail ... Top vs. Bottom!

“It’s important to realize that whenever you give power to politicians or bureaucrats, it will be used for what they want, not for what you want.” -Harry Browne

“The State is not force alone. It depends upon the credulity of man quite as much as upon his docility. Its aim is not merely to make him obey, but also to make him want to obey.”—H.L. Mencken

“He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark mustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two ginscented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.” -George Orwell, “1984”

It’s been slow around here lately. War and death and destruction ... that’s my busy season! Bring it on!


Lew Ciefer

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By Virginia777, May 10, 2011 at 11:05 pm Link to this comment

Lew Ciefer:

“You run along now, little girl. I’m not arguing anything.”

Do you always call women girls?

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By Virginia777, May 10, 2011 at 11:01 pm Link to this comment

Lew Ciefer:

“Wrong again girlie!”

Girlie? Lol.

“You’re confused because of the weight. That’s a plastic sword made in China ... “

Wrong. My sword is steel.

“it’s heavy because it’s filled with lead contaminants.”

Are you getting PC about my sword???

” Try licking it for a few months and let’s see what happens.”

Done. Nothing happened. Now say something else stupid to me.

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By MarthaA, May 10, 2011 at 2:54 pm Link to this comment

Lew Ciefer, May 10 at 1:30 pm,

You appear to be a Republican Christian Righter blaming the Left,
when it was the Right that did all the destruction during the
Crusades, not the Left, and if your seduction works the United States
is headed that way again, but my prayer is that the Left in all their
imperfection will somehow overcome.

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By Lew Ciefer, May 10, 2011 at 1:30 pm Link to this comment

@ MarthaA:

You run along now, little girl. I’m not arguing anything. I’m a dying man and I’m telling you about life. All of your illusions will one day be put to light and you will find yourself weeping and gnashing your teeth. I’m neither left nor right neither conservative nor liberal. Humans fuck it all up. That’s all you need to know besides the fact that in modern history, more human beings have been slaughtered and starved and beaten and tortured by Socialists and Communists evangelicals than by any other force in the world. What you support is death.

I know you don’t believe that and I don’t care … if you live long enough you’ll behold it with your very eyes. It’s guaranteed. You are entering hell on earth—and I know something about hell. Know watta mean?

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By Lew Ciefer, May 10, 2011 at 1:19 pm Link to this comment

Mr. Jobless in Seattle:

I also have heard of the May 21st rapture by the Camping loons true believers. That’s what piqued my interest in lastdaywatchers’ May 15th, 100% sure as hellfire and damnation to come true prophecy. Two raptures only six days apart? I don’t think so!

I would gladly provide you with an opportunity but the truth is that all positions are filled for the time being. I know that you are looking ahead to the increased workload as of 21-5-2011, but I’ve some bad news. A few months ago one of the main representatives of the Camping clan was on Coast to Coast and was asked to sign over all of his property and bank accounts—to take effect on the 21st of May—and he refused to do so. That pretty much sums up the whole deal as just another fraud. Christians do seem to like having the bejesus scared out of them for some odd reason. I used to feel sorry for them being fleeced by all those false prophets until I realized that they weren’t being fleeced so much as paying for entertainment.

I’m sure that you share in my disappointment of not being able to shortly “torment all the souls left behind here on Earth” but please rest assured that should either one of the predicted dates actually produce a rapture—other than that of my girl friend when we have sexual relations…I am a horny little devil!—you’ll be the first on the list to phone. Cheer up! It’s not like it’s the end of the world; we still have 2012 right around the corner!

Have you any prior experience in tormenting souls? 

With respect,

Lew Ciefer

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By Lew Ciefer, May 10, 2011 at 1:17 pm Link to this comment

@ lastdaywatchers, May 9 at 1:50 pm:

Wrong! That’s not why “they would say to Jesus ‘tell us plainly.’” Jesus and I have a history, I know Jesus and Jesus knows me. They said that because Jesus spoke in parables; not unintelligible gibberish. There is a difference!

Really, there are many people at the bottom of the Red Sea for mocking the word of god? Can you provide us with a little archaeological evidence of all those dead at the bottom of the Red Sea?

Speaking of the “word of god”; aren’t you in violation of that same word of god by involving the pyramid of Giza and all that other non-biblical belief into your prophecy ventures? Isn’t that consulting with devils and demons? I think it is—and I should know what constitutes consulting with devils and demons. Know watta mean?

I can’t argue with your statement that “most people just don’t get it when it come (<- there should be an “s” on the end of that verb) to knowing the ways of God and his Word.” In my case I can assure you that I know Him and His word much better than you ever will. Trust me on this one! After all, I am… Lew Ciefer.

So I take it that we don’t have a deal, right? Damn! I was looking forward to working with you and making a little money off all those fearful sheep - there’s nothing I like better than a little fleecing of flocks.

I’ll be seeing you…

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By MarthaA, May 10, 2011 at 11:57 am Link to this comment

Lew Ciefer, May 9 at 1:22 pm,

You apparently want to argue sophist contention, rather than
sublated unity of balance.  Arguing the absence of sublated
understanding and awareness panders down to an all to human
overwhelming desire to argue and contend over the absolute
separateness of ideological definition that proceeds from baseless
presupposition which is uncritically and unthinkingly adopted.

This type of pandering dialog enabled the Enclosure Movement in
Britain, the Genocide of the Native American people to take their
land and resources away from them by force, and Nazi Fascism as
established order to accuse, condemn, denounce, and kill others
for self serving advantage.

It sounds to me like you are just one more self serving EXTREMIST
willing to sacrifice others to your cause, but be outraged if your
own standard is applied to you.

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By Maani, May 9, 2011 at 10:04 pm Link to this comment


“Calling someone a conspiracy theorist is a bullying tactic…And, by the way, what’s on the other side? The ever changing, shallow, swiss cheese stories of the government?”

The so-called “fourth estate” changed from being a “watchdog” or “stopgap” for truth in government when it started treating any and every press release or statement from the White House/government as “truth” without even pretending to fact-check it. Part of this is the result of the 24/7 news cycle, and the media simply got lazy.  But no matter what the reason, when the media treats government press releases and statements as “fact,” and delivers those “facts” unchecked to the public, that is called “propaganda.”

This is what allows the government (and media) to get away with marginalizing anyone who questions or disagrees with the “official story” as a “conspiracy theorist” - a phrase that has been successfully propagandized into a pejorative or epithet.

Unfortunately, the average American (sheeple) is either too ignorant or too apathetic to care.  They eat their pablum, believing anything their government tells them.  It is beyond sad; it is a travesty.


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By Jobless in Seattle, May 9, 2011 at 5:40 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Jobless in Seattle

Dear Lew Ciefer,

I’m very interested in attaining a position with your organization. After May 21st you will be needing to expand in order to torment all the souls left behind here on Earth. I don’t have a lot of hands on experience at tormenting but I feel certain that I would be very good at tormenting. There are a lot of sinners I would like to torment. If by some odd chance things don’t work out as planned, I will understand but please keep this application close at hand, in case things work out for the better.

Obviously, I’m desperate for employment; I’m thinking that if things don’t work out as planned, I will be able to freelance as a false prophet tormentor, which will give me some experience at tormenting, so, however things work out, please keep this application for future reference.

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By lastdaywatchers, May 9, 2011 at 1:50 pm Link to this comment

I have this to say to you Lew Ciefer there is
long line of those (many at the button of the Red Sea) 
who mock at the Word of God and find the prophet he
uses langues as being “unintelligible”

That why they would say to Jesus “tell us

Some people, or I should say most people just don’t get
it when it come to knowing the ways of God and his Word

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By Lew Ciefer, May 9, 2011 at 1:26 pm Link to this comment

@ lastdaywatchers, May 8 at 2:07 pm:

I clicked on the link. Could you guys have made it any more obfuscated? It’s a mass of jumbled up news reports and scripture but no where was I able to see an actual prediction. I couldn’t help but notice that you still have a “faith offerings”. I guess George Carlin was right when he said: “He [God] loves you and he needs money! He always needs money! He’s all powerful, all perfect, all knowing, all wise ... somehow ... he just can’t handle money.”

So what’s the big event? Are you willing to sign over all of your wealth and property to me as a sign of your faith in your 100% true prophecy?

I noticed that you claim the United States is Manasseh—one of the original twelve tribes of Israel according to the Old Testament. That would make us Hebrews, right? There were no Jews then. Soooooo… I was wondering; does that make everyone in the U.S. Hebrews? Does that mean that Mexicans, Muslims, Jews, Russians, Ukrainians, Eskimos, Hawaiians, Africans, American indigenous, etc. are all Manasseh tribal Hebrews or is there some unique identifier to distinguish between the chosen Americans—Manassehians—and the not chosen losers?

Pssst… two words between friends about your site ... SPELL CHECKER! And as an added bonus, just to show you that there is no animosity here ... in English the past tense is usually done by adding a “d” or “ed”—irregular verbs excluded—and the present tense second person singular requires an “s” added to the verb. You really need to work on the editing. On the Home page you have a picture of bin Laden with his face crossed out and the following next to it, in big red letters: “He will offer up his 2 of his facilitators Osama Ben Laden” What the hell is that? What does that mean? Anyone can claim 100% fulfillment of prophecy if it’s unintelligible.

For a price I can help you with the unintelligibility problem. For an even bigger price I’ll write prophecy that will have people shaking in their boots and hitting that “faith offering” in anticipation for more scary stuff. How about a percentage of the take? Watta ya say?

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By Lew Ciefer, May 9, 2011 at 1:23 pm Link to this comment

@ Virginia777:

Wrong again girlie! You’re confused because of the weight. That’s a plastic sword made in China ... it’s heavy because it’s filled with lead contaminants. Try licking it for a few months and let’s see what happens.

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By Lew Ciefer, May 9, 2011 at 1:22 pm Link to this comment

@ MarthaA:

Let’s consider for a moment your first paragraph. Do you see any contradiction with any of your previous statements made in your post before this latest one? In the previous posts you mentioned that had Osama been a Christian he could have been part of the Crusades. The tone was one of distain—properly so IMO—about the Crusades. Now here you are making statements that apparently infer praise of a mass murderer and his organization and using a comparison to an age—that of the Crusades—that you have previously spoken of with distain.

We here in the West refer to that period in our history when Christianity ruled supreme as the Dark Ages! What is it about that description that doesn’t register with you?

Except for a few thousands of whacked out Islamic fundamentalists and their delusional, self-loathing, anti-American leftist supporters in the West no one wants anything to do with Osama’s grand plan to regress humanity to an 8th or 9th century caliphate. Have you the slightest clue to the horror that something as completely stupid as that would mean to mankind? With all the technology that we in the West—yeah, I’m talking about all those evil white people—have developed to increase our capacity to produce the necessities of life on this rock we still experience about 35 thousand deaths daily due to starvation or nutrition related causes. About 25 thousand of those are—reportedly—children. Meanwhile in the land of the Great Satan—where all those evil white people developed all that new agricultural technology—there’s an obesity problem even and especially amongst the nation’s poorest!

Have you studied any history at all? Have you any idea what it was like to live in the 8th and 9th centuries? I suggest you read Brook Adams’ “The Law of Civilization and Decay” and “Medieval People” by Eileen Edna Power; both are available, free of charge, online. If reading isn’t your forte then simply think one word: “Dentistry!” If that doesn’t do it for you, think “running water” or “medical science” or “sewage treatment plants” or “safe drinking water and abundant food supply” or “relative peace and tranquility” or “flushing toilets” ... speaking of which; have you ever used an old style outhouse in the middle of summer or on a freezing winter morning? I have!

As for how many more do I think would be willing to die for that fantasy New Muslim Order ... not many! And it really doesn’t matter how many because the Empire can—if it feels threatened enough—wipe them out by the tens of millions within a few hours time. Have you taken an honest look at the Islamic world? Pakistan exists because it receives aid from all of us evil white people in the West. Almost all of them—as well as Israel—survive because we, the citizens of the Great Satan, are coerced into supporting them—much to our chagrin!

It apparently has escaped your attention that Osama bin Laden didn’t die fighting for his cause. He died, as most self-appointed would be saviors of the world do, holed up like a cornered rat afraid to show his sorry ass outside of his squalid hide-a-way. Have you a single photo of Osama ever really participating in a fire fight? I didn’t see him running to Iraq to face the trained troops of the Great Satan ... I do believe that when our troops landed in Afghanistan he hauled ass—with tail between legs—to Pakistan.

You’d best study up on your Roman history—and please read something besides “Roman History R Us.”

Muslim New World Order ... bwaaaa! Give me a break!

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By tropicgirl, May 9, 2011 at 6:21 am Link to this comment

Calling someone a conspiracy theorist is a bullying tactic.

Its like kids calling each other gay. Or young girls being called fat or worse. Its the way a weak, sick, dishonest person bullies a stronger one.

See how silly it is to listen to them? Its insulting to even hear it.

And, by the way, what’s on the other side? The ever changing, shallow, swiss cheese stories of the government?

Believe what you want but whatever it is, it will have consequences. Better to look to the truth, no matter how difficult it is to accept it at first.

Everyone knows how that goes in real life.

Don’t feed the trolls and kill the lies with the truth.

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By drbhelthi, May 9, 2011 at 12:51 am Link to this comment

As far as the U.S. President having the requirement of deciding whom he
will have assassinated ?  More Obama fairy tales.  See “The Chronicles of
Chip Tatum,” and the video speeches of former CIA station manager John

Obama simply follows the initial plan, traceable to the HQ of the WWII NAZI
entourage, in Texas.  The home of the “nice man” who was careful to send
cards and letters of condolence to the remaining family of persons whom he
had directed to be assassinated.  Which man was evidenced by Hitler´s last
bodyguard to have been born in Doerlitzsch, southeast of Leipzig, Germany. 
Couldn´t happen?  Ever heard of “Operation Paper Clip” ?  Over 2,000
falsified passports.                                                                                     
Broaden your perspective; read-up on the NAZI Bush family.  If you have the
courage - - .

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By Virginia777, May 8, 2011 at 10:41 pm Link to this comment

Lew Ciefer:

“Wrong again girlie! You’re batting a thousand but in the wrong direction; the diamond is behind you. Turn around!”

I don’t use a bat, I use a sword.

Steel is much stronger than wood. And yes, its pointed in the right direction. It is you who need to turn around.

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By MarthaA, May 8, 2011 at 2:38 pm Link to this comment

Lew Ciefer, May 8 at 1:54 pm,

Sometimes you have to march into the Colosseum and die in order
to establish a New Order.  Do you suppose that perhaps Osama
bin Laden may have been interested in the same thing as early
Christians—that of establishing a New Order and that he was
ready to give his life in pursuit of that New Order?

How many more Moslems do you suppose will also be willing to
give their lives in pursuit of a New Moslem Order?  If the numbers
are anywhere close to the numbers of the early Christians, who
were willing to give their lives in pursuit of a New Order, we here
in the United States and the West as a whole are in for a rough
time of it before the Moslem equivalent of the Emperor
assumes power over Rome and moves his capital
city to establish the New Order.

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By lastdaywatchers, May 8, 2011 at 2:07 pm Link to this comment

Well since I mess up twice on updated the link (by
the way the 1st post I made was the link good)

I’m giving it a 3rd try (3 strike and you are out!)
to see for yourself how 100% accurate the May 15th
Prophecy have been

Those of you who know that I been posting here for
years and have not lied once

Click on that link and those of you who have eyes to see will see how correct the May 15th Prophecy have been

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By Lew Ciefer, May 8, 2011 at 1:54 pm Link to this comment

@ MarthaA, May 7 at 7:26 pm:

If Osama was a Christian, he could have been called a crusader
and I doubt that he was even 1/4 as awful as the Christian

Martha, dahling, if wishes were sailboats we’d all be floating.

You’ve inadvertently agreed with what I said to Virginia777; Osama bin Laden far from being “evil incarnate” (Scheer’s term) is nothing more than a fart in a roomful of people in the annals of human history. That you would have to go as far back in history as the Crusades—a time when Europe was little more than a calamitous, wretched, depraved, venomous, and devilish Catholic theocracy—speaks volumes.

“Religion makes people do wicked things they wouldn’t ordinarily do. It doesn’t make them behave better-it makes them behave worse.” -Christopher Hitchens

Islam, as Judaism and Christianity, WILL morph into a more civilized and palatable religion or Islam WILL be reduced to rubble. It’s simply a question of time.

Osama did that which sailors learn not to do—he pissed into the wind. When one urinates into the wind the results are that one is left wet and smelling of urine.

Empires, unlike the mythological gods of religion, are real. They, unlike mythological gods, do answer prayers and exact revenge on behalf of themselves and their people. Today’s god—The State as God—like Zeus and Thor and YHWH and Allah of antiquity also throws lighting bolts, pounds away with a hammer and strikes humans dead while standing on their feet. The State as God utilizes very real and very modern versions of lighting bolts and hammers. Today god’s lightening bolts are laser guided missiles and bunker buster bombs. His all seeing eyes are electronic surveillance and drones, and his hammer is tanks and ground troops equipped with the most technologically advanced arms in history. 

Osama became a target when he publicly embarrassed the Empire before the world. The Empire was asleep at the wheel because it didn’t consider credible its own intelligence reports, its hubris would not allow it to believe such audacity possible. It’s a Greek tragedy—Nemesis follows Hubris.

76 Navy SEALS? So that’s the version of the tens of doubleplusgood duckspeak reports you decided to believe?

All those pictures of dead al Qaeda leaders for the past decade never struck a cord in you? Interesting!

The Empire is not particular in enemy religious affiliation. If you don’t believe that, ask all the dead Christian whackos from Waco and those from the Balkan states where the Empire took the side of the Muslims against the Christians. Unlike the gods of mythology, Empire is not a jealous god. It knows that those other gods are myth and hasn’t any problem with humans assuaging themselves. The problem arises when believers of mythology start believing their myths to the point they are willing to take up arms and strike at the one true god—The State as God—that things get ugly. Christians in the U.S. realize that. That’s why they piss and moan all the day long about “taking their country back” but don’t dare challenge the one true god—The State as God—by taking up arms against it. They know full well that the Empire strikes back!

Civilization ... ain’t it grand?

“The Nobel Committee awarded the 2009 Peace Prize to the very person who dropped the most bombs and killed the most poor people on the planet during that year. -Joe Bageant

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By lastdaywatchers, May 8, 2011 at 1:54 pm Link to this comment

I’m sorry I mess up the link here is the correct link

The May 15th Prophecy again 100%
regarding the

“offering up of Osama Bin Laden”

about the exact time he would be killed

Read The Event Horizon & The Twins and you
will see for yourself !

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By MarthaA, May 8, 2011 at 1:43 pm Link to this comment

A Khokar, May 8 at 1:22 pm,

Sure, sure.

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By lastdaywatchers, May 8, 2011 at 1:22 pm Link to this comment

The May 15th Prophecy again 100%
regarding the “offering up of
Osama Bin Laden”
about the exact time he
would be killed

Read The Event Horizon & The Twins
horizon-twins.html and you will see for yourself !

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By A Khokar, May 8, 2011 at 1:22 pm Link to this comment

For the hundreds of Conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 attack and subsequent Bush hegemonic War against Terror that people call it a phoney war; The only witness to all this; Osama has been silenced.

Whereas pictures showing Osama’s demise and burial is not being published but statement of his young wife Amal is circulated to prove that; Seal team 6 killed not a frail, ailing Osama but a potent terrorist

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By lastdaywatchers, May 8, 2011 at 1:20 pm Link to this comment

The May 15th Prophecy again 100%
regarding the “offering up of
Osama Bin Laden”
about the exact time he
would be killed

Read The Event Horizon & The Twins and you will see for yourself !

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By MarthaA, May 8, 2011 at 12:40 pm Link to this comment

I think we need a whole new CIA.

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By JDmysticDJ, May 8, 2011 at 11:17 am Link to this comment

I don’t believe we created a monster, I believe we empowered a monster, and created a martyr. My own personal belief is that there are many monsters on the world stage, from both sides in the conflict. From the time when bin Laden was a minor player on the world stage, through the time when bin Laden was a larger than life player on the world stage, we affectively empowered him, first to violence, and secondly as a symbol of resistance, or as an actual leader to those who hate us, and quite finally, to present time, and to the future, wherein bin Laden will be perceived as being a martyr. I believe memory of bin Laden will provide an inspiration to those who wish us ill.

The main stream consensus is that the assault on bin Laden’s compound was well planned and provided a great moral victory. I’ll argue that the opposite is the reality. Avoiding the irrational conspiracy theories, which rely on intuition, rather than fact; I’ll argue that the outcome of this event was more harmful than any imagined conspiracy could be.

I’ll argue that what many see as an act of heroism will be perceived as an act of cowardice, not just by our enemies, but by others, who seek a peaceful resolution. The only bright spot in this assault, in my view, was that the wife who sought to protect her husband was only wounded, and not killed.

The killing of an unarmed man, contrary to all standard rules of engagement, and to basic moral tenants, will not be seen as a heroic act, not by those who threaten us, or by many others vital to the achievement of the best solution possible under the circumstances.

I believe that the planning of this event was poor, because too much emphasis was placed on achieving vengeance, and not enough emphasis was placed on achieving accepted modes of justice. In my opinion, the best possible outcome of this event would have been the capturing of bin Laden and the turning of him over to prosecution by the World Court. A World Court that included respected Muslim leaders as jurists.

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By mike, May 8, 2011 at 10:21 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Lafayette” is a an idiot sheeple.  Just read up on “Operation Ajax” and “Annaconda
Copper Chile”.  You fool.

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By Maani, May 8, 2011 at 10:20 am Link to this comment

4.  The Situation Room Photo.

According to someone I know who has been in the Situation Room pictured in the photograph (which is the least “secure” of all of the SRs), there are some anomalies that “bother” him:

-All the lights are on.  He actually believes that this is the most critical fact to question, since (i) the main lights are never kept on during briefings or viewings, and (ii) they would almost certainly be off when the main thing is watching the screen.

-All the computers are off.  He says that people do not just run into the SR to watch something.  They usually assemble beforehand, and there is some discussion or info sharing , during which some (and usually most) people have their computers on.  He supposes that everyone could have shut them off to watch the main screen, but he considers this unlikely.

-That is not where the president would be sitting.  He would be sitting at the nead of the table, with others around him - particularly during a time when he might have to make some split-second decision on what is occurring.

As we now know, even Hillary admits that she does not know exactly what they were watching when the photo was taken.  And Leon Panetta has also questioned the photo.

Although I believe the photo was not “posed” (i.e., they were in fact watching something on the screen), there is no way of knowing whether they were watching the raid, or even whether the photo was taken at a different time.

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By Maani, May 8, 2011 at 10:08 am Link to this comment

3.  The “New” Videotapes, and the December 2001 Videotape.

The “new” videotapes allegedly found in the compound and all wrong.  First, there is simply no way of knowing when those tapes were made; they could have been sitting there since 2001.  In fact, given how young he looks in some of them, this may be the case.  Indeed, the government and media do not even attempt to explain why he looks ten years younger and healthier in some than in others.

Second, the tape purporting to show OBL “watching himself on TV” is so obviously NOT OBL: even from the side view on the tape, the face is the wrong shape and color, and his beard is black.

Third, with regard to this last (the black beard), here is the “official story”: “The intelligence official who briefed reporters at an unusual Pentagon news conference on Saturday took pains to point out that Bin Laden…had dyed his white beard black for his appearances in the videos - suggesting vanity or at least a desire to appear younger in videos made for distribution to his followers around the world.”

Nice try.  But OBL was a radical Sunni of the Qutb school.  And radical Sunnism does not permit the dying of hair or beards: he is as likely to have dyed his beard as he is to have swigged from a bottle of Jack.

As a related aside, radical Sunnism also does not permit the wearing of gold, which is one of the reasons we know that the alleged videotape of late December 2001 (the first one in which OBL allegedly “admitted” to masterminding 9/11) is phony: not only is his beard black and the shape and color of his face completely different, but he was wearing a gold ring on his right hand.  Compare that with these photos, which are representative of every other photo taken of him:

In fact, like many leaders, it is entirely possible that OBL had a “double” (and maybe more than one).  This is something that has never even been suggested, much less discussed.

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By Maani, May 8, 2011 at 10:04 am Link to this comment

2.  The Burial at Sea.

“After Osama bin Laden’s corpse was slipped into the North Arabian Sea, the White House’s chief counterterrorism adviser declared that the United States had buried him ‘in strict conformance with Islamic precepts and practices.’  According to a senior military official, the body was washed, shrouded and dispatched with a funeral prayer. Despite its best efforts, the United States government still has much to learn about the intricacies of Muslim funerary law…Bin Laden’s burial was doctrinally irrelevant to some Muslims, and confusing to others.  Most of the rest feel uneasy.  Perhaps the United States could not have avoided that.  But a deeper understanding of the history of Islam’s sacred law could have prevented us from seeming so at sea.”

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By Maani, May 8, 2011 at 10:01 am Link to this comment

1.  The Helicopter Photo.

The following is a photo you may have seen, alleged to be the remains of a helicopter that was used in the raid:

One of my “sources” for info in military matters is the former demolitions member of a SEAL team.  I have known him for over a decade.  He was with his team for almost eight years, and his team was involved in numerous covert ops in the late 1980s and early 1990s.  He is about as far from a conspiracy theorist as it is possible to be: ultra-conservative, “rah-rah” U.S., 9/11 Truthers (including me) are wacko, etc.

When I showed him this photo, his exact words were: “Bullshit.  When a SEAL team blows something up, they fucking blow it up; there’s nothing left. To suggest that a SEAL team blew up a fucking helicopter and left a piece of wreckage this size is a fucking insult to the SEALs.”

He said that if this helicopter was actually used in the raid, then it was not blown up by SEALs, but by someone else.  But he said it is more likely that the photo was taken at a different time, and probably in a different place.  He absolutely refutes the notion that, if this helicopter was used in the raid, the Navy SEALs were responsible for destroying it, despite the fact that that is part of the “official story.”

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By Jim Yell, May 8, 2011 at 7:30 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

There is a word for this, but it requires some passing knowledge of history to understand. If we want to know where we are headed we should read Gibbons. Even with all the wonderful things modern investigation has found out about the past, Gibbion still speaks volumes about why political systerms fall.

The word we should be using is Byzantine Politics. It is the art that while it sometimes works well enough in the long term double dealing everyone eventually leads to a loss of stature and moral force to the practitioner of it.

We have gotten a very bad reputation for sneaking around and back stabbing. The list of hideous leaders that we funded, encouraged and squandered our tax money in supporting is huge.

The poster boy of this was Marcos. A man who stole so much of the wealth of the Phillipines that if they had have had an honest leader they would not have needed our tax money to keep the country afloat. One more case of Corporate interferance in Political life, in order to make huge profits for the few while destroying our country and the world. Welcome to the future past.

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By Lafayette, May 8, 2011 at 3:06 am Link to this comment


RB: Not to mention - and this is old news - the fact that the oil majors, based in the US, need oil pipelines laid in Afghanistan.

How easy it is to befuddle the matter by insinuating, yet again, that it is all Money Politics, nothing more and nothing less.

Laying a pipeline through Afghanistan with insurgents owning most of the countryside and no Afghan Army capable of mastering the Taliban?

Are you out of your mind? The plutocrats who run BigOil are not the fools you seem to purport they are.

Neither are the people running the US. I rant as well about offensive MoneyPolitics in LaLaLand on the Potomac, but I hesitate when the insinuation is made that we expect OurBoys (all volunteer recruits) to go over to the SandBox to prove their manhood.

Is that how we are abusing our youth? Promising them a job and maybe some education if they would only put their ass on the line for 18 months so America can build a pipeline one day?

It takes a sick mind to think that and even sicker mind to effect that sort of policy decision. 


Such arguments are twisted and demented, because they assume that baseness guides our political decision making process.

If that is true, we’d do better to give up now the pretense of being a Just Country.

Stop the World, I wanna get off.

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By Lafayette, May 8, 2011 at 12:40 am Link to this comment


Macks: This blarney is like the opposite of Achem’s razor—the most convoluted, contradictory crap is what they are trying to sell as true.

Like most media fads, Conspiracy Theory is on a rebound in America. Why?

I figure it is too many Hollywood films with lots of action and nonsensical plots. But, who knows - it comes and goes. Besides, despite the current economic morass, there are a great many who bored out of their skulls.

No amount of logic or sense will change their minds. So, why try to present the facts?

Perhaps some nutters must absolutely believe that the political class the American people democratically elect can be honest, open and forthright? Conspiracy Theory hands them a neat answer - it is all a Conspiratorial Plot by a handful of individuals in Washington (both politicians and plutocrats) behind closed doors and spun publicly as our “stalwart defense of the nation and its democracy”.

Sounds good, doesn’t it? But not an ounce of verity to be found there.

Don’t feed the trolls.

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By Arrby, May 7, 2011 at 11:59 pm Link to this comment

For one thing, Why would any serious journalist or commentator assume that the US, which (as a recent Democracy Now episode’s guests and interviewers discussed) signed an agreement with outgoing Pakistani president Musharraf regarding ‘hot pursuit’, didn’t know that bin Laden was where he was? The hot pursuit deal allowed the US to go after anyone, anytime, in Pakistan in hot pursuit, while allowing the Pakistani government to deal with it’s own (rightly) anti-American public by employing plausible deniability. The Pakistani government could just lie and say that it didn’t authorize the US to do it’s imperialism within Pakistan.

Two, Why would any serious journalist act as an apologist for the American empire in suggesting, as Scheer does, that it doesn’t seek to dominate the world with forward bases, by controlling regions and by extension, whatever adjacent regions will help maintain that control. Not to mention - and this is old news - the fact that the oil majors, based in the US, need oil pipelines laid in Afghanistan.

Other points made by Scheer, who hasn’t driven straight for some time, I would agree with.

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, May 7, 2011 at 10:15 pm Link to this comment

Robert Scheer is a shill and serves the hegemony either out of fear or obedient futility to his handlers… unless he writes about Tower 7 and acknowledged the factual demolition of those three towers that fell that day.

Anyone who believes different has NOT researched that day’s events enough to see past the lies and propaganda.  There are hundreds of witness testimonial, including many firemen and policemen who can attest to the countless explosions, the call to evacuate as well as idiots who actually spilled the beans and realized a windfall in the courts of injustice ( Silverstein ).

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By La, May 7, 2011 at 8:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“a fart in a room full of people in the annals of human history. Nothing more!”
Don’t you mean the “anals”?

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By MarthaA, May 7, 2011 at 7:26 pm Link to this comment

Lew Ciefer, May 7 at 6:00 pm,

If Osama was a Christian, he could have been called a crusader
and I doubt that he was even 1/4 as awful as the Christian
Crusaders.  He was highly po’d that the Saudi Royals allowed
infidels to be in Saudi Arabia through the U.S. Military Base
stationed in Saudi Arabia and wanted the base removed, but was

“Those claiming that the U.S. paid trillions to kill bin Laden are
myopic and haven’t a clue to what is really taking place on this
—Lew Ciefer, May 7 at 6:00 pm

I wouldn’t say trillions, but the movement of those 76 Navy Seals
wasn’t free.

“The Empire has been systematically eliminating one religious
zealot leader after another and if you think that that doesn’t begin
to work on their nerves ... think again!”
—Lew Ciefer, May
7 at 6:00 pm

It had not occurred to me that the Empire was systematically
eliminating religious zealot leaders.  I guess that doesn’t include
various Christian zealots, because the United States has a lot of
religious zealots.  Are you saying that George W. Bush and Barack
Obama have been and are eliminating religious zealot leaders that
aren’t a certain type of Christian?  or what?

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By Lew Ciefer, May 7, 2011 at 6:00 pm Link to this comment

@ Virginia777:

Robert Sheer is dead-on. Get used to it. 

Wrong again girlie! You’re batting a thousand but in the wrong direction; the diamond is behind you. Turn around!

Osama bin Laden was the product of religious fanaticism. Far from “evil incarnate” (Scheer’s term) he’s nothing more than one of the latest in a long line of delusional, self-appointed saviors-of-mankind; just another link in a long chain of religious-born slaughter throughout all of human history. And unless the Empire’s Ruling Elite find his memory useful and order the propaganda arm to keep it alive, within a very short time Osama bin Laden will quickly fade away into infamy and become nothing more than a Wikipedia story—a fart in a room full of people in the annals of human history. Nothing more!

In Iran the theocratic elite are charging the aids of their whacked out president with necromancy. Witch trials in the 21st century! And they are, reportedly, planning to impeach their big-mouthed president under the same charges. It’s enough to make me spit out my coffee again. One thing about theocrats girlie—deep down they know that their beliefs in magic sky daddies are bullshit and they know full well when to apply the brakes. Those claiming that the U.S. paid trillions to kill bin Laden are myopic and haven’t a clue to what is really taking place on this rock. The Empire has been systematically eliminating one religious zealot leader after another and if you think that that doesn’t begin to work on their nerves ... think again! It’s one thing to want to save mankind and reshape it into your insane vision of what is pleasing to your imaginary deity but it’s startling to realize that your crazy ideas just might mean a visit by very well-trained and brutish men of the Empire’s elite fighting forces to cap ya ass.

If history teaches us nothing else girlie it’s this: Civilization will survive and Islam will—like Judaism and Christianity before it—morph into a much more palatable religion. Human beings want to be free and the believers in the biggest, most powerful, and brutal religion of all—“The State as God”—are determined to see that the world conforms.

“There is a sense of Greek tragedy, with its dialectic of hubris and nemesis, to what has been unfolding in the Islamic world. If Muslim extremists continue to use terror against the West, their very success will destroy them. If they succeed in terrorizing the West, they will discover that they have in fact only ended by brutalizing it. And if subjected to enough stress, the liberal system will be set aside and the Hobbesian world will return, and with its return, the Islamic world will be crushed. Whom the gods would destroy they first make mad. The only way to avoid this horrendous end is to bring the Islamic world back to sanity sooner rather than later.”—Lee Harris, “Civilization and its Enemies”

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By MarthaA, May 7, 2011 at 4:58 pm Link to this comment

Mack, May 7 at 3:18 pm,

“So what’re they going to do with the dialysis machine?  That’s my
question.” —Mack, May 7 at 3:18 pm

That was my question too.  I wanted to know about the dialysis
machine, but apparently there was no dialysis machine found in
that building, which makes me wonder who was killed, based on past stories.
Rupert Murdoch’s Washington Post is not adequate for verification
of anything any more than Rupert Murdoch’s Fox News Network
and Ruport Murdoch’s News Corp. and Rupert Murdoch is putting
out evidence to support the story, which cause me to be
concerned about the story altogether.

There appears to be a cover up going on in regard to the dialysis
machine, because I read the report straight out that no dialysis
machine was found, now it has all been deleted for reasons only
the deleter would know.  Now I wonder what really happened.

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By drbhelthi, May 7, 2011 at 1:02 pm Link to this comment

” - if it was really Osama bin Laden that got killed, and that we will
never know for certain as well.”  MarthaA

Perhaps MarthaA will never know for certain. However, MarthaA does not
speak for the hundreds of U.S. personnel who have known for sure since
ten years ago.  A number of whom would receive prompt assistance with
“suicide” should they openly publicize the truth.  Each member of the
S.E.A.L. team, all others closely related, the U.S. Military chain of
command that was directly involved in the recent Hollywood-type fraud,
just for a start.

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By Lafayette, May 7, 2011 at 12:19 pm Link to this comment

Well worth a read, from WashPost: Five myths about Osama bin Laden

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By Lafayette, May 7, 2011 at 12:15 pm Link to this comment

ITW: But he still chose to commit horrific actions against people he de-humanized in his mind and his speeches.

I’ve always thought Hitler and bin Laden were different personalities, by listening to their speeches.

Hitler was forcing his Nazi ideas down German throats whereas bin Laden was always trying to explain and convince. Of course, both had the same murderous methods to achieve their goals.

So, in fact, neither took humanity into any high regard. Freud would have had a field-day with either of them.

Let’s presume they are both burning in hell.

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By MarthaA, May 7, 2011 at 9:38 am Link to this comment

tedmurphy41, May 7 at 8:17 am,

“The question is did Bin Laden know too much
about about 9/11 that would have been very
embarrassing had he been allowed to reveal all
he knew were he to be brought before a Court.”
—tedmurphy41, May 7 at 8:17 am

I am of the opinion that you are right.  I am also of the opinion
that Osama bin Laden, being an aristocrat, was not prepared to
fight for his life because he believed Bush had made it really clear
no one was really looking for him, and after all it had been just
short of 10 years since the 9/11/01 attack.  Osama bin Laden
apparently thought his part in that crime had been forgotten—
and as far as Bush was concerned it had been forgotten, but he
underestimated the Obama factor— to his demise, if it was really
Osama bin Laden that got killed, and that we will never know for
certain as well.

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By tedmurphy41, May 7, 2011 at 8:17 am Link to this comment

If what has been stated is a true and factual account of what took place at Osama Bin Laden’s compound, why was he not taken alive and brought before a Court of Law.
The behaviour and actions of these special forces, unless (and it would appear to be the case) they had orders to eliminate the subject/s irrespective of being armed or not, seems to be the sort of performances reserved for actors playing out their parts that we usually acknowledge as over-the-top entertainment.
We preach how we put our trust in the rule of Law for all miscreants, no matter what crimes they are alleged to have committed and, as he was not brought to trial, they must stay allegations, so why did it not happen in this case?
If we are to go down this road and kill all the people we do not like, or suspect of being criminals, then we are doomed to return to a Wild West scenario, where those characters with the most hardware win, and it’s not necessarily the “good” guys.
Saddam Hussein was not killed when he was found but then he did not claim to have killed any Americans otherwise his fate would probably have been sealed, without going through the follow-up “niceties” of a court case which he appeared in, along with his henchmen.
The question is did Bin Laden know too much about about 9/11 that would have been very embarrassing had he been allowed to reveal all he knew were he to be brought before a Court.
We will never know now, will we?

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By Inherit The Wind, May 7, 2011 at 5:33 am Link to this comment

You could have given a similar description of Hitler: Artist, lover of opera, kind to children, whose wild, charismatic rants were as carefully practiced as a concert violinists.  But he still chose to commit horrific actions against people he de-humanized in his mind and his speeches.

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By doublestandards/glasshouses, May 7, 2011 at 3:23 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I don’t know if anyone here has already linked to this.

Not even Glenn Greenwalt had pointed out that by the FBI’s own admission Al-Queda was still only a suspect in the 9/11 attacks.

Winona LaDuke talked about some of the same issues at on Friday, 5/6.

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By Lafayette, May 7, 2011 at 2:07 am Link to this comment


psycho: This one man was all of the asshole of humanity wrapped into one perfectly presented package for the masses to feast on.

You obviously do not know the man. Neither do I.

But I have Saudi friends who worked with him, before he decided to cross-swords with the Saud Family and was banished from Saudi Arabia.

He was a gentle man and kind to those who worked for him. He had some civil engineering experience and would have had a pretty good idea of what a jet airplane, full of kerosene, could do if it crashed into the Twin Towers (at the right height, thus destroying its structural integrity).

He was a womanizer having had at least 5 wives and fathering between 20/26 children. He wrote poetry and spoke softly.

Does this make him Evil Incarnate? No, unless you know the man entirely ... and most Americans could not give a damn to know the man in his totality.

Knowing him makes him more endearing? Of course not. But it does help us to understand why, despite his education, his long-term plan was to bring down the Saud Family and install a Caliphate in Saudi Arabia (and beyond).

So, he was a political dreamer with fixated principles. But most importantly, bin Laden was without any scruple as regards the sanctity of human life that might impede his ends. That attribute is what uniquely makes him, or anyone, Evil Incarnate.

And at the same time he was a wolf in sheep’s clothing - both kind and considerate to those nearest him and a terror to those who barred his way.

Bin Laden was thus both good and evil. Is that double-identity so uncommon in mankind?


If you want to defeat your enemy or, at the very least, prevent them from doing harm to you and yours, then you must understand who they are, what they believe in and the means they are willing to undertake towards achieving their ends.

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By drbhelthi, May 7, 2011 at 12:21 am Link to this comment

The announcement that “Al Qaida” has recognized the death of Osama bin
Laden -
was the bulletin released by the U.S.Military in Afghanistan, the Bush
ranch in Texas, Newsmax of Florida, or directly from Obama´s suite in
the smooty White House, or elsewhere in D.C.?

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By Psychobabbler, May 6, 2011 at 11:30 pm Link to this comment

Oh my Gosh


Forget the one next to you because there is a greater purpose. We all really just have to achieve greatness at some point for whatever reason etc. etc.

This one man was all of the asshole of humanity wrapped into one perfectly presented package for the masses to feast on.

Move on now as you will or not as you wish.

You yourself will probably be guilty of perceived oppression as long as you insist on pushing your rights to do just that.

I’d say that privileges should be granted to the people who best exemplify the need to be privileged in the most convincing way excluding all of the other peasants from here and elsewhere who say things contrary to the prescribed script, and something has to be done about the ones who break away from this unnatural selection.

All I know now is that China and the other nations of earth would all be making a big mistake to start a space race with me because I can go to the moon tonight to stop all of this power play bullshit.


We can trick the whole world into thinking that they are equal trough marketing and advertising, media etc.

They don’t even know how silly we are for pushing products disguised as solutions to all of their most pressing problems.

Ha Ha Ha!

What a bunch of fools they are for not realizing the truth unlike us.

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By Virginia777, May 6, 2011 at 10:13 pm Link to this comment


“Keep up the good work Lew.”

Good work? He’s spaaaaaatting all over my keyboard.


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By Virginia777, May 6, 2011 at 10:12 pm Link to this comment

Lew Ciefer:


I’m sorry I didn’t mean to spit coffee all over my keyboard and monitor but ... damn!”


And stop splaaaaatting on me

*wipes keyboard*

Robert Sheer is dead-on. Get used to it.

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By free rap beats and instrumentals, May 6, 2011 at 9:14 pm Link to this comment

very nice perspective.. honestly the United States response towards Osama’s death was pretty shamefull..  Just goes to show how ignorant our country still can be

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By MarthaA, May 6, 2011 at 8:08 pm Link to this comment

Here is Alex Jones Prison Planet that is interesting to check out:

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By grokker, May 6, 2011 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment

tropicgirl -  I have also heard the Pieczenik interviews recently and I tend to agree with this. Other high ranking officials foreign and national have known about this for years; a best kept secret, if you will. Be careful about mentioning Alex Jones here,however. All of the people who conveniently accept the party line and call others by the cheap cop out term “conspiracy theorist”, are likely to come out of the woodwork in these forums. As if just about everything political wasn’t some kind of conspiracy.

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By MarthaA, May 6, 2011 at 2:50 pm Link to this comment

OK, we have all heard this stuff.  Was it a Bush cover up to keep from
killing Osama, or what?  If not Osama, then who was the person shot
in the head and chest in Abbottabad, Pakistan?  There was blood all
over the place.

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By tropicgirl, May 6, 2011 at 1:42 pm Link to this comment

Since I have been really grouchy lately, with good reason, realizing after reading my own posts here today, not that I am backing down….

Here is a bit of feel-good for some people…

Sadam Hussein of Iraq is not dead, according to top US government insider Dr. Steve R. Pieczenik, a man who held numerous different influential positions, (including Deputy Assistant Secretary of State, under three different Presidents, Nixon, Ford and Carter, while also working under Reagan and Bush senior, and still works as a consultant for the Department of Defense. A former US Navy Captain, Pieczenik achieved two prestigious Harry C. Solomon Awards at the Harvard Medical School as he simultaneously completed a PhD at MIT).

Hopefully Mubarak also. The policy has been not to actually kill former strong men, allies. This policy goes back to The Age of Empire. This report indicates this tradition has not yet changed.

I know some people will appreciate this.

Dr. Steve R. Pieczenik also shockingly told The Alex Jones Show yesterday that Osama Bin Laden died in 2001 and that he was prepared to testify in front of a grand jury how a top general told him directly that 9/11 was a false flag inside job.

Back in April 2002, over nine years ago, Pieczenik told the Alex Jones Show that Bin Laden had already been “dead for months,” and that the government was waiting for the most politically expedient time to roll out his corpse. Pieczenik would be in a position to know, having personally met Bin Laden and worked with him during the proxy war against the Soviets in Afghanistan back in the early 80’s.

Pieczenik said that Osama Bin Laden died in 2001, “Not because special forces had killed him, but because as a physician I had known that the CIA physicians had treated him and it was on the intelligence roster that he had marfan syndrome,” adding that the US government knew Bin Laden was dead before they invaded Afghanistan.

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By bonito, May 6, 2011 at 1:22 pm Link to this comment

USA,USA,  Now we can all go on with our lives. It only
took 10 Years, A Trillion dollars, and hundreds of
thousands of lives, to kill our most wanted monster,
but we won Sports Fans, Now we can sit back and form a
Group to collect a hundred million dollars to build the
next monument to war in our nations capital, but do not
take too long at this for now we must prepare for our
next conflict in the Middle East, that of destroying
Iran for all of their sins against the good old USA.


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By thethirdman, May 6, 2011 at 11:43 am Link to this comment

Re: Lew Ciefer

Virginia,“I love how he’s talking to you.”

Keep up the good work Lew.

Re: Lafayette

  ttm: “Most Amerikans believed that Saddam was responsible for the attcks on  
9-11 and that he had WMDs.”

Stop attributing that to me.  I never said that.

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By Lew Ciefer, May 6, 2011 at 10:50 am Link to this comment

@ Virginia777, May 5 at 10:17 pm:


I’m sorry I didn’t mean to spit coffee all over my keyboard and monitor but ... damn! ... that’s funny!

I read in almost every comment on this board, as well as many others, that the government, politicians, Wall Street, and the MSM are controlled by “Them” and that they are all part and parcel of Satan’s New World Order ... spawned from the lowest pit of hell fire and damnation and determined to enslave all of mankind in Satan’s evil plan to take over the world and rule it with an iron fist… blah, blah, blah… ad infinitum.

Then here you come and scold me for not accepting Mr. Scheer’s “source” ... a high government official—of the Pentagon no less—as the very words of Krishna, Jesus, Mohammed, Allah, God, YHWH, Zeus, Thor, the Ancestors, and the Holy Spirit all combined.

So which is it girlie ... is the government credible or is the government not credible? It can’t be both ... or can it? The “government” has the doubleplusgoodest duckspeakers in the world!

Consider the current administration’s version of the Osama drama. How many times has the account been adjusted? The tale has changed so many times that the official government duckspeaker, doubleplusgood duckspeaker Jay Carney, admitted to being confused. Now that’s great propaganda! The latest reports from Hell claim that Joseph Goebbels is burning with envy. Never forget girlie… “INGSOC is Newspeak and Newspeak is INGSOC.

Try thinking like a man instead of a girl ... that requires that one uses one’s mind instead of one’s emotions.

It’s obvious that my main contention with Mr. Scheer’s typical, predictable, nefarious, anti-American screed is that of Osama bin Laden being a monster of U.S. making. Bullshit! Give me a friggin break!

Osama bin Laden was born into great wealth and politically connected to the royals in a totalitarian, autocratic fiefdom. He was not out screwing goats while tending his father’s herd in unfertile ground because an evil oil company ran his impoverished family off their tribal lands. He was already a full blown Wahhabi fundamentalist psychopath when the CIA found an asset they could use to their advantage against a mutual enemy ... a mutual enemy who happened to be the principle supplier of arms and finances to the North Vietnamese. Arms and finances used to kill us. The war may have been cold girlie but it was still a war and it wasn’t cold to those of us in uniform.

As a matter of political convenience and of their own volition, the CIA and Osama wallowed together in the sty. Such is war; it makes for strange bedfellows. If there is a dupe in this romantic tale of woe it would be the CIA due to it having been so damn stupid that it came to believe its own propaganda and failed to realize—or did it?—that Osama’s fundamentalist religious beliefs required that he turn on the Great Satan once circumstances permitted.

“The enemy of my enemy is my friend” ends once my enemy is destroyed. That “friend” then becomes my enemy, especially if I’m a whacked out Wahhabi fundamentalist nut who wants to create a world caliphate to take civilization back to the good old days of the 8th or 9th century. 

Osama could have chosen a different route to save mankind. He could have chosen the route many American would be saviors-of-mankind choose ... to sit in their walled Ivory Towers, dressed in their Brooks Brothers’ suits, Bertuli footwear, seated on their inches thick portfolios while preaching the superior virtue of the oppressed and fire and brimstone against capitalism, empire, and white men, feeling all good inside because down on the second floor there’s an office with a sap in it whose door has the title: “Current Token Minority of Superior Virtue.”

There’s no need for a New World Order to enslave mankind ... man is so fucking stupid that he willingly and joyfully enslaves himself.

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By felicity, May 6, 2011 at 9:07 am Link to this comment

Interviewed last night, Condi Rice, in defending the
Bush Administration’s war on Iraq said that Saddam
had been a threat to the US since it went to war with
Iran (1980-1989.)  Interesting, given that we
directly supported Saddam during those years.

So, not only do we play the game of supporting some
nefarious character (binLaden) one day and the next
declare him enemy number 1, we support someone who we
believe and declare is a basic threat to our nation.

Obviously, we don’t give a rip about any of these
people.  We only give a rip about whether their
policies and actions will negatively affect the
holdings of our plutocrats.

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By Maani, May 6, 2011 at 8:58 am Link to this comment


And now a word from the master, Adolf Hitler:

“Propaganda must always address itself to the broad masses of the people…All propaganda must be presented in a popular form and must fix its intellectual level so as not to be above the heads of the least intellectual of those to whom it is directed…The art of propaganda consists precisely in being able to awaken the imagination of the public through an appeal to their feelings, in finding the appropriate psychological form that will arrest the attention and appeal to the hearts of the national masses. The broad masses of the people are not made up of diplomats or professors of public jurisprudence nor simply of persons who are able to form reasoned judgment in given cases, but a vacillating crowd of human children who are constantly wavering between one idea and another…The great majority of a nation is so feminine in its character and outlook that its thought and conduct are ruled by sentiment rather than by sober reasoning. This sentiment, however, is not complex, but simple and consistent. It is not highly differentiated, but has only the negative and positive notions of love and hatred, right and wrong, truth and falsehood…Propaganda must not investigate the truth objectively and, in so far as it is favourable to the other side, present it according to the theoretical rules of justice; yet it must present only that aspect of the truth which is favourable to its own side…The receptive powers of the masses are very restricted, and their understanding is feeble. On the other hand, they quickly forget. Such being the case, all effective propaganda must be confined to a few bare essentials and those must be expressed as far as possible in stereotyped formulas. These slogans should be persistently repeated until the very last individual has come to grasp the idea that has been put forward…Every change that is made in the subject of a propagandist message must always emphasize the same conclusion. The leading slogan must of course be illustrated in many ways and from several angles, but in the end one must always return to the assertion of the same formula…But the most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly and with unflagging attention. It must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over. Here, as so often in this world, persistence is the first and most important requirement for success.”

Sound like any country we know?  LOL.


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By Liam, May 6, 2011 at 8:44 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Nothing happens anywhere in the world without the permission of the government here and there.

How do you know a politician is lying?  His/er lips are moving.

YOU and I know nothing except that nothing that has happened in the past 60 yrs of my life happened without the involvment of our own government.  Thay have not follow the law from the very beginning 220+ yrs ago.  It seems liars, cheats, and thieves are all that are attracted to politics. 

Go back stick your head in the sand and ignore the world.

Believe none of what you hear (read) and only half of what you see.

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By Lafayette, May 6, 2011 at 8:16 am Link to this comment

ttm: “Most Amerikans believed that Saddam was responsible for the attcks on 9-11 and that he had WMDs.”

Most Americans will believe anything, I figure, because they want to do so. It gives them a hook on which to hang their beliefs.

So, SpinMasters like Karl Rove use Media Manipulation as a technique to get credulous people to believe in fairy tales. 

We have come as a nation, finally, to perhaps understand that we are being manipulated. But, lest we forget, Americans voted not once but twice for Lead-head and his OilGang.

It is difficult to understand what moves the Silent Majority to chose incompetents to represent them. It is certainly a question that is answered in terms of cultural attributes. I am not about to embark on that particular analysis in a blog. Not enough space.

But what fascinates me and most observers of America abroad is the facile manner in which Americans think that whatever is right for Uncle Sam should be right for the world.

We believe we invented the definitive version of democracy and the rest of the world need only make a carbon-copy of it ... and all will be fine.

That notion is really quite naive. As, I suspect, are a great many Americans.

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By MeHere, May 6, 2011 at 8:00 am Link to this comment

It is interesting to notice that despite all the talk about Bin Laden, Al Qaeda and
9/11, there’s been hardly any talk, particularly in the MSM, about the reasons for
a major attack in our soil. Except for some naive “Why us?” at the beginning
(which remained unexplored,) there’s been no effort to look into it.  Did Bin Laden
pick the US out of the names of countries in a hat?  Motive is an important element in the analysis of any crime but it hasn’t been in the 9/11 case. I guess the public has accepted the idea that Satan made Bin Laden do it. So much for the highly evolved state of our nation and the Western world.

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By thethirdman, May 6, 2011 at 6:54 am Link to this comment


“Most Amerikans believed that Saddam was responsible for the attcks on 9-11
and that he had WMDs.”

That was surfnow.

I was praising your analysis.

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By Maani, May 6, 2011 at 6:46 am Link to this comment

Here’s the “official” dissembling:

“WASHINGTON — On Monday, the Obama administration said that Osama bin Laden had been killed after a firefight with Navy Seal commandos, and that he had used his wife as a human shield. On Tuesday, the administration said that Bin Laden was not armed at all, and that his wife had not been a shield, but had rushed her husband’s assaulter and was shot in the leg. On Wednesday, the administration backtracked again. This time it downgraded its initial accounts of a firefight that raged throughout the raid to gunshots fired only at the beginning of the nearly 40-minute operation by Bin Laden’s courier, who was quickly dispatched by the commandos. What happened? In the view of officials from past and present presidencies, it was a classic collision of a White House desire to promote a stunning national security triumph — and feed a ravenous media — while collecting facts from a chaotic military operation on the other side of the world. At the same time, White House officials worked hard to use the facts of the raid to diminish Bin Laden’s legacy. ‘There has never been any intent to deceive or dramatize,’ a military official said Thursday, asking that he not be named because of ground rules imposed by the Department of Defense. ‘Everything we put out we really believed to be true at the time.’

This might be acceptable if our gov’t did not have a history of obfuscation, dissembling, spin and lies - and if they did not release a photo showing Obama, Clinton and others WATCHING THE RAID AS IT OCCURRED.  If that photo was not a phony (which, of course, it was), are they trying to tell us that, in real time, they could not tell the difference between a “firefight” and a single person getting off a few shots BEFORE the SEAL team entered the building?  That they did not know, in real time, that Obama’s wife was only injured and not killed?  That they did not know, in real time, that OBL was unarmed?

What I don’t understand is who more people (okay, sheeple) cannot see this incident for the phony it was.  Okay, they were too “shocked and awed” in the moment to see what 9/11 really was.  But THIS is so BLATANTLY phony that it shows, perhaps better than anything in recent memory, the dumbing down of the American public, and their complete and absolute inability to show ANY understanding, discernment or (supportable) skepticism whatsoever.


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By tropicgirl, May 6, 2011 at 6:43 am Link to this comment

If anyone here thinks that Robert Gates is some sort of authority, it simply illustrates the complete laziness and ignorance being spewed forth from the supposedly progressive community.

This is one of the reasons you have to rejoice in the demise of the misguided and hopelessly stupid so-called anti-war movement…

Robert Gates was an integral part of the gun-running, drug-running, and death squad murders lumped under the heading of the Iran-Contra scandal. Gates started in Iran-contra as a stooge of William Casey, and continued under Bush the elder.

When Gates was nominated by Reagan to be head of the CIA in 1987, his role in Iran-contra crimes was already so filthy and so blatant that he was forced to drop out of contention under questioning. In doing this, Gates was seeking to defend his new master, George H.W. Bush, who at that time was preparing a presidential bid for 1988. The elder Bush was the czar of all Reagan-Bush covert operations, including Iran-contra. Gates fell on his sword to avoid revelations which would have doomed the candidacy of Bush the elder. Payback for Gates came in June 1991, when he was nominated once again to be head of the CIA, this time by Bush the elder.  The Democrats, intimated by the elder Bush’s apparent victory in the first Gulf war, rolled over.

Gates’ resume is marked by a total absence of independent and competent judgment. His pedigree is rather that of a stooge who serves powerful masters. The first was Reagan’s CIA Director William Casey, the kingpin of Iran-contra. The second was George H.W. Bush, who took over that role from Casey. Gates is a secret government toady, not the autonomous figure of integrity required to terminate US involvement in Bush’s catstrophic Iraq adventure.

In September 1991, Time Magazine cited widespread reports that Gates “cooked the books” while he was at the CIA to support the political demands of the Reagan and Bush regimes. A New York Times editorial of November 4, 1991 concluded that “charges that Mr. Gates slanted intelligence assessments, leaving Congress in the dark and more amenable to administration policy, stand unrefuted.” George Shultz reports in his memoirs that he “I don’t have any confidence in the intelligence community I feel you try to manipulate me. So you have a very dissatisfied customer. If this were a business, I’d find myself another supplier.”

In the final report of the Independent Counsel for Iran/Contra Matters, Lawrence Walsh left little doubt that he believed Gates had given perjured testimony during that investigation.

Most damning of all is the fact that Gates was one of the founders of al Qaeda, the CIA’s Arab Legion which was assembled to attack the Soviets in Afghanistan. Gates is thus part of the infrastructure that produced the patsies of 9/11:

According to former CIA Director Robert Gates’s memoir From the Shadows, the big expansion of the US covert operation in Afghanistan began in 1984. During this year, “the size of the CIA’s covert program to help the Mujaheddin increased several times over,” reaching a level of about $500 million in US and Saudi payments funneled through the Zia regime in Pakistan. As Gates recalled, “it was during this period [1985] that we began to learn of a significant increase in the number of Arab nationals from other countries who had traveled to Afghanistan to fight in the Holy War against the Soviets… Our mission was to push the Soviets out of Afghanistan.”

But the international brigade Gates talked about was in fact created as the group now known as al Qaeda. (Tarpley, 9/11 Synthetic Terror, pp.139-140 )

This is the same al Qaeda which provided the troupe of patsies, psychotics, and double agents (bin Laden, Atta, Moussaoui, etc.) which were used to pin the 9/11 attacks on Arabs and Moslems ­ instead of the US bankers’ rogue network which actually carried out 9/11 for geopolitical reasons.

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By Lafayette, May 6, 2011 at 6:39 am Link to this comment


TTM: Most Amerikans believed that Saddam was responsible for the attcks on 9-11 and that he had WMDs.

And most Americans think Afriker begins just beyond the three mile limit. Just what are trying to argue?

That the Iraq Invasion was about oil? If so, why doesn’t American BigOil own all the oil concessions? And have you any idea of what Iraqi oil production looks like - it is nowhere near its prewar production high - see here.

In fact, Exxon walked away from a concessionary bid recently. Why? Because the Iraqis are asking for huge commissions for companies to invest in renovating dilapidated oil fields, an investment that the return does not justify. Iraq is not the only place on this earth that has oil.

Maybe lead-head thought it was about oil, but the facts do not square with that notion. Besides, he’s just bad history. Dubya wanted Hussein’s ass because Hussein had tried to assassinate his father. (See here and here.)

Let’s not make out of supposition an historical “fact” that is not information but intoxication.

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By Go Right Young Man, May 6, 2011 at 6:38 am Link to this comment

ITW, - “He screwed up: He INTENDED to kill over 50,000 people with the WTC attack, but “only” killed 3,000.’ - ‘He chose to attack civilians, innocent people, children without remorse.  Nobody created that viciousness but himself.”


100% correct!

As much as I respect Bob Scheer he is a wonderful example of the prevailing ignorance that must always Blame America First.  It’s as if Mr. Scheer can’t see past U.S. borders.  He seems not to fully appreciate that there are 190 nations on the planet.

Ask Mr. Scheer about the involvement of Japan, or Germany, or Poland in Afghanistan and the Mujahideen and he’ll likely answer with a blank, unknowing, stare.

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By Rudi P., May 6, 2011 at 6:13 am Link to this comment

One of the best commentaries about the killing from Bin Laden comes from the Australian journalist Bob Ellis:

Jon Stewart got it wrong when he said: “We are back, baby!” The killing of Bin Laden highlights the cultural difference between the US and the rest of the world. Europeans, Asians in general and Australians cannot understand why America celebrates the (undocumented) shooting of an unarmed Bin Laden, when it had the choice to capture him and put him on trail. The way how this was done reminds us more of a mob-job than of an operation under the supervision of the president of the United States: kill the suspect and his team and then get rid of the body ASAP.

America’s understanding of “justice” is very very different from the majority of the people on this planet.

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By drbhelthi, May 6, 2011 at 4:37 am Link to this comment

Osama bin Laden, a myth-monster of GHWBushSr-C.I.A. creation.
The NAZI-Bush family, C.I.A. myth, boogey-man. First employed by
GHWBushSr, about 1975. See the “Chronicles of Chip Tatum”.  Interesting
that the F.B.I. found no evidence that Osama bin Laden was involved in
the 9-11 incident.

Interesting that intelligence services of five nations have pronounced
the recent “Obama Birth Certificate” to be fraudulent.  Good reason; he
has none. He was illegitimate, was birthed secretively, and no
certificate of birth was issued.  We can´t ask his loving old, Kenyan
Grandma, since she disappeared after her initial news-media appearance. 
Also, evidence of real paternity suggests that she was not his
grandmother, only a loving old, Kenyan Grandma, period. 

Additionally, CIA Chief, Panetta, announced that there was no signal on
the screen when “Obama´s faithfuls” were fraudulently horrifying
themselves at what they saw.  More evidence that Obama´s crew is
incapable of honest, altruistic behavior. We can expect Panetta to be
promptly replaced, unless he protects himself with the thousands of
“tools” at his disposal.

Interesting that Osama bin Laden died ten years ago, after years of
treatment by top-level, C.I.A. physicians.  A few of them the best,
NAZI-Dr. Mengele-trained in the world.  However, they could not assist
him to heal from his genetic affliction, a force of nature.  Perhaps
NAZI-type butchering is not so hot after all.

As far as body dumped at sea fairy tale, any bodies “dumped at sea” were
those of American Patriots who threatened to blow the whistle of truth. 
Welcome back, Virginia777.

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By johncp, May 5, 2011 at 10:42 pm Link to this comment

In the midst of all these highly intellectual and insightful comments, I’m reluctant to comment about such apparently less critical issues.  I refer to the matter of the comments made by all but the beleivers in the “official” story concerning events of major importance.  Everyone else making “contrarian” comments, are, at least, suspicious, but mostly “wacky,” “delusional,” etc.  This is pure bunk.  The implication is, that only the story that comes from the government, the “official” story, is absolutely true, cannot be doubted, must be accepted without even doubts entering ones mind.  Why should doubts enter your mind, if the official story is incontrovertible?  Why people believe this nonsense is one of the most disturbing, the most depressing aspects of what we nevertheless, call “modern” society.  What is it about Governments that give them this special standing in our judgment?  A government is just a bunch of people.  People almost certainly with a point of view about the way the world should be run.  They run it they way they want to, they promote their way, they sell it.  Why on earth do you suppose that they’re a more reliable source of information, let alone, what we call, truth?  If anyone/anything is likely to be “conspiratorial,” it’s governments, any government, except the very least intrusive, in the lives of its citizens.  This constant bullshit about calling anything and anyone that questions the government’s account of “what happened,” is laughable.  Aside from the rarest recluse, everyone is a conspircist; any two individuals conspiring to achieve a goal, usually nefarious.  Anyone, that, say, works with someone else, and with the benefit of your ignorance, to get your money, legally or illegally, is a conspirator.  That should give you an idea of the number of “conspirators” in this world.  So much for “conspiracy theorists,” and their supposed folly.  Of what use is all this fancy thinking we’re all so impressively doing on these chat rooms, if the average man, the man on the street, doesn’t understand any of it, doesn’t care about it, doesn’t have time for it, and rarely if ever reads it?  What the “average man” understands, is what the boob tube tells him about the major stories of the day, including that, if he disagrees with the official story he’s been told by the “news” media, he’s a screwy conspiracy theorist, and deserves to be in a nuthouse.  Obama is a perfect president for all this business.  A man that delivers storybook, populist, “democratic” platitudes about change, governs as a typical republican, and only keeps his promises when his reelection is at stake.  If he’s reelected, as the billion dollars he’s intent on raising, almost certainly insures that he would be, what will there be to make him keep the promises he makes when he secures reelection?

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By Virginia777, May 5, 2011 at 10:17 pm Link to this comment

Lew Ciefer:

“Mr. Scheer presents conjecture as fact and you’ve swallowed it.”

oh yeah? and what is your version of it? Robert Sheer sources no less than Robert Gates, in admitting the supporting of bin Laden, in a mis-guided attempt, to twist the Cold War.

oh yeah, Osasa bin Laden is a monster of our own creation, and how.

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By Virginia777, May 5, 2011 at 10:11 pm Link to this comment

“Awkward, I know, to point out that bin Laden was another of those monsters of our creation.”


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By Maani, May 5, 2011 at 4:08 pm Link to this comment

A. Benway:

I posted the following early on in the Hedges thread:

“Although it is heartening to see so many so skeptical of this report - either because they believe OBL died some time ago and this report was timed for political and/or propaganda purposes, or simply because they have learned to distrust almost anything the government tells them after the false flag operation of 9/11 - there is one scenario that no one has mentioned yet.

The “death” of OBL makes future - and possibly near-future - false flag attacks more likely.

Consider the following scenario.

The death of OBL helps “heal wounds,” bring America together at least a little more (“nationalism,” anyone?), and makes the 10th anniversary of 9/11 as much a celebration as a continued memorial and rememberance.

And on 9/11/11 - in solidarity with 9/11, and in response to the “killing” of OBl - “Islamic suicide bombers” blow themselves up during 9/11 memorials in NYC, Chicago, LA, San Francisco, Houston and Miami.  Not that many people are killed or injured, but the acts still serve not only to darkening the American mood, but to provide the U.S. government with further opportunities to curb civil liberties, control the populace by fear and, possibly, even invoke martial law.  (Yes, that’s pretty radical, but it COULD happen.)

Only there WERE no “suicide bombers”; they were false flag attacks, carried out in a similar manner to 9/11 via the complicity of individuals and agencies of the U.S. government.”

I would add for those who still believe the “official story” of OBL’s death, there are really only two possibilities: either he has been dead for some time (whether since December 2001 or sometime later) and his body has been “on ice” for “use” at the most opportune moment, or he was alive last week and the narrative of what occurred is as big a lie as 9/11.


We were told that there was an action in which Navy SEALs stormed the compound, there was an ongoing firefight, OBL was armed, one of his wives was shot and killed when she “jumped” in front of him, and he was subsequently shot and killed.

Now, we are told that (i) there was no firefight AT ALL (only one person who shot at the SEAL team from a security booth OUTSIDE the building), OBL was not armed, and one of his wives was shot in the leg. Yet we are being asked to believe that OBL was killed, rather than captured, for some “good reason.”

Setting aside all the aspects of a “cover-up” (no photo, immediate burial at sea, etc.), we are being asked to believe that the most well-trained SEAL team in the U.S. military could not capture OBL in the complete absence of opposition weapons?

As well, it is worth considering that any claim by Obama et al that they didn’t know “all the facts on the ground,” and that is why the story changed, is a blatant lie.  After all, didn’t they release a photo of all of them watching the entire action on TV in the the Situation Room?  If so, then they knew right away that (i) there were no opposition weapons, and (ii) OBL was unarmed.  If not, then the photo is the lie.  Either way, there was absolutely a cover-up.

GRYM, Leefeller, ITW et al: any comments?

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By samosamo, May 5, 2011 at 11:44 am Link to this comment


By MarthaA, May 4 at 7:58 pm Link to this comment
samosamo, May 4 at 7:25 pm

“”“"And, of course you know that you are not the only one that
didn’t buy the official story, there are thousands of us, as it
would have been impossible for such an attack to have
happened without help from the inside upper echelon.  Osama
bin Laden gets to be the scape goat and apparently people feel
better knowing he is dead, but is he?  Will it end up like
Caesar or the king.”“”“

I know, I know, but too keep repeating the ‘official story’ is
telling the lie over and over so I fall into my dark sarcasm
and.. well you read what I wrote. But I also don’t feel I should
just ignore the ones trying to promote the OS. Even some of
those regulars here who know also.

Question: have you been experiencing problems here at
truthdig with email notifications and no email notifications or
way past the time the comments were made and submitted. I
keep getting emails from people not even on the comment
section or appear for a second time. Just wondering if this site
is under attack or what.

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By MarthaA, May 5, 2011 at 10:51 am Link to this comment

Lew Ciefer, May 5 at 10:26 am & Lew Ciefer, May 5 at 10:23 am,

Pusher of Twaddle.

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By Lew Ciefer, May 5, 2011 at 10:26 am Link to this comment

@ RenZo:

I understand what you’re saying but I think you’re the one who should consider more deeply your position.

The U.S.S.R. did not go bankrupt fighting in Afghanistan. The U.S.S.R., like all centrally planned markets, was doomed and bankrupt from the start. It was only a matter of time. Afghanistan was just one of the cards in that house of cards. That’s why Red China and North Vietnam have moved toward free-market economics, they know full well that Marxist economic theory is a pipedream and doomed to failure.

The fallacy of your position—IMO—is that you are assuming that what Osama wanted isn’t the same thing that the Ruling Elite want. How do you know that “they” aren’t purposely spending us into economic collapse through constant war and positioning their military power around all the world’s oil reserves? You don’t! And neither do I. We can be almost certain about many aspects of life on this planet due to historical evidence and precedent but as for the details of how events will play out ... that’s impossible to forecast. 
Even a broke U.S., because of its nuclear capabilities and the size of its population, is never not going to be a major player on the world’s stage. We may have reached a watershed moment in human history where our technology has imprisoned us. Did you see any placards written in Chinese in all those laughably so-called “democracy movements” throughout the Middle East these past few months? I didn’t! Why not? Isn’t China –according to Media—the world’s new super power? There isn’t a day that goes by that we aren’t bombarded by the propaganda ministry about China being the new world power. Well, why aren’t the people of the world looking for China to save them? Why do they still reach out to the Great Satan?

If you check out news reports from the 70s, 80s, and early 90s you’ll realize that much of what we hear today about China, the Media were predicting the same with respect to Japan. There’s much more taking place in this world than we peons and nobodies will ever know.

”If those in charge of our society-politicians, corporate executives, and owners of press and television-can dominate our ideas, they will be secure in their power. They will not need soldiers patrolling the streets. We will control ourselves.” –Howard Zinn

Life isn’t hard to figure out. The big fish have been eating the little fish since before our ancestors crawled out of the primordial sea. So stop fearing and learn to love the bomb.

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By Lew Ciefer, May 5, 2011 at 10:23 am Link to this comment

@ Chip:

I don’t agree.

There is no way that Mr. Scheer could know what was in the mind of Osama bin Laden, he couldn’t possibly know even if Osama told Mr. Scheer personally because he could have been deceiving him. Mr. Scheer presents conjecture as fact and you’ve swallowed it.

The period in question was the OPEC-created crude oil shortage during the Carter years, which caused tremendous financial hardships and for the first time in our history gas shortages and rationing, thermostat limit laws, and the 55 m.p.h. speed limit. It also played a heavy hand in securing Carter’s ouster after his first term.

The veneration of Osama and the Mujahedeen spoken of by Mr. Scheer took place during the U.S.S.R.‘s involvement in Afghanistan. Did you read the article?

The Arabian Nights metaphorical description is exaggeration to drive home a point; that the government’s propaganda ministry—the U.S. Media—was officialdom’s responsible party for romanticizing the so-called Mujahedeen fighters to the American public as part of the propaganda campaign to help convince the public to accept its justification for intervention. American’s of our day were not possessed of a natural affection for either the Russians or the Arabs (read Muslims) so painting them to be heroic defenders of freedom and American ideals—Davids against Russian Goliaths—was necessary. My contention is that the so-called “morphing” of Osama from heroic Mujahedeen to evil incarnate was strictly a function of government propaganda via its propaganda ministry because Osama had been a whacked out religious zealot long before he “turned” on his former allies. Only a fool—IMO—would believe that Osama or his organization was ever a true ally—if there even is such a thing—of the U.S.

In other words Chip ... they shaped American perception of the former so-called allies as was convenient by changing the propaganda. There’s a very similar scene in Orwell’s 1984 when on the 6th day of Hate Week, with public sentiment is at its peak against Eurasia, Oceania’s enemy is switched from Eurasia to Eastasia without missing a beat. In conflict powers make alliances as is convenient.

“Their [the media] job is not to inspire and inform public discussion, but simply to colour it, and the task most frequently before them is that of giving a patriotic and virtuous appearance to whatever the proletariat is to believe. -H.L. Mencken

That you would refer to Mr. Scheer as an American hero demonstrates that in this oligarchical collectivist U.S. the word “hero” is yet another co-opted term that has come to mean absolutely nothing. You stated that “the media and politicians were ‘sold out crooks’”; have you failed to realize that Robert Scheer is an honored member of the U.S. Media and even ran for political office?

“Robert Scheer, who looks like a fat cat New York hippie in his three-piece suits and polished Italian boots, won 45 percent of the vote in California’s seventh district in the June primary election.” - Linda G. Mcveigh (The Harvard Crimson, Thursday, November 17, 1966)

This is a hero Chip:

The facts are that Osama bin Laden was neither a member of some oppressed minority nor impoverished but rather just another wealthy, delusional, self-appointed savior of mankind. He suffered the consequences of his actions, choices, and alliances. And in the words of Tom Waits in his song “Little Drop of Poison” ... “A rat always knows when he’s in with weasels.”

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By Lew Ciefer, May 5, 2011 at 10:22 am Link to this comment

By MarthaA, May 4 at 5:44 pm Link to this comment
Lew Ciefer, May 4 at 5:19 pm,
I read all of your post and came to the same conclusion I always
come to—that your posts are twaddle.

@ MarthaA:

Thank you Martha for those kind words and with all due respect, coming from you ... that’s great news!

“When people agree with me I always feel that I must be wrong.” -Oscar Wilde

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By madisolation, May 5, 2011 at 8:46 am Link to this comment

Thank you, M L. I appreciate that!
No, I haven’t thought about it, but I’d love to give all my support and time to a candidate who would bring the far left and the Libertarians together. Someone who could bring both sides together in the name of peace, the restoration of civil liberties, and the prosecution of corporations. A coalition of all these dedicated people would be a real force against the establishment parties, and I think more and more people would join the cause.

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By A. Benway, May 5, 2011 at 7:50 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Soon enough, some say, we’ll see a false-flag “attack” supposedly in reprisal for this murder. With that “justification” there’ll be some unspeakable counter-attack against some resource-rich country. Well, that’s what somebody said. We’ll see…

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By, May 5, 2011 at 3:54 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Lafayette, FYI there was never a south or north Vietnam there is only a Vietnam. South Vietnam was the creation of the Pentagon warmongers, like Curtis LeMay and a south Vietnam was created in the mind of Wash., DC. Vietnam was the war in waiting for the MIC and JFK had denied the Pentagon 3 times for war, the Cuban Missile crisis, Berlin Wall, Bay of Pigs, all three missed opportunities for nuclear war as articulated by Warmonger, LeMay an unrepentant unindicted war criminal by his own admission.

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By RayLan, May 5, 2011 at 3:25 am Link to this comment

Interesting how Obama suddenly is acting like he has a backbone on 60 minutes - saying ‘We don’t troll out this stuff as trophies’. Thst’s a laugh - We get all the intel on the sting operation - a ‘Mission Impossible’ style strike - how they have DNA evidence—yada yada - but no proof - not a shred of evidence = the excuse being that it wouldn’t be nice to show him dead - it would incite Muslim hatred - !!!! Right - it’s better to tell stories about his death - than prove it - that will placate the Muslims who trust Americans implicitly of course. LOL
God this government plays the American people for such fools - but then again it’s what the people get for electing these corporate bitches.

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By drbhelthi, May 5, 2011 at 1:40 am Link to this comment

The U.S. Navy S.E.A.L. found nothing of value, except - - - .
Oh ?  Says who? 
And the S.E.A.L. is supposed to be proud of having murdered a helpless, old
man, a C.I.A. set-up?

Similar to the early-on statement that a comparison of DNA proves the
person is Osama bin Laden. How did the initial DNA sample get in the hands
of USGOV representatives?  The USGOV has not published that Osama bin Laden
was in the care of C.I.A. physicians for years prior to his death.

Nor, has the CIA or USGOV published that the CIA knew of the death of Osama
bin Laden immediately after he died, ten years ago.

Nor, has the CIA or USGOV published that the set-up of the Pakistani family
for the S.E.A.L. to murder, was done by CIA representatives.
Just one more, GROSS insult to the S.E.A.L. of the U.S.NAVY- and- U.S.NAVY
leadership. . .

A Hollywood production in an attempt to create credibility for the being
who uses the CIA identity of “Barack Hussein Obama, Jr.”  When Dr. Barack
H. Obama “knew not” of his existence?

Reliable leadership in the Negroid community has established evidence of
the paternity of “Barack Hussein Obama,Jr.” While numerous researchers have
established historical dates of various, related events.  Interestingly
enough, the genuine Dr. Barack H. Obama entered the scene when young Barry
was about nine years of age, a few years after his birth.  Evidence
suggests that “Barry” was inseminated in the U.S.A. by an American citizen,
but birthed secretively in Kenya, due to “illegitimacy,” which was
seriously castigated by “Brits” at that time.

The man who goes by the name, “Barack Hussein Obama” is not responsible for
his illegitimacy, teenage promiscuity of his mother, nor improper rearing
by his maternal grandmother, later his mother.  That his grandparents on
both sides and mother sucked him into the CIA is understandable.

The man currently occupying the Office of President of the United States of
America IS RESPONSIBLE for the continuous fraud he has perpetrated against
the U.S. Constitution, the American citizenry and the Western World, and
the recent Hollywood-style production in which the U.S.NAVY S.E.A.L. was
again insulted with misuse against a helpless, Pakistani family,
misrepresented as Osama bin Laden clan.

This type of debacle is intended to assist with the re-election of the
U.S.Presidential fraud, B.H. Obama ?  Americans and the western world need
no more of this type of debauchery.

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