BR549

Finally! I get someone with a sensible response. Look I love to write so bear with me while I manifest this thought process, or a brain fart.

As to John Perkins, I’m his mailing list so I get his stuff. I haven’t read his book but I have read reviews about it. Some good some not so good. I read his articles, so I know were he is coming from. As a matter of fact I have posted on his blog and he has actually responded.

You know when you hear an argument alluding that the US government and Chiquita Banana are one and the same not too many people are going to take you seriously. Our friend, DieDaily, could have worded it a bit different if he was looking for my agreement.

As to all your other points I don’t see anything disagree with. I fully understand how you can reach the conclusion that the US is financing death squads in Colombia and the premise of that conclusion. Perhaps years ago I would concluded the same. Based on what I’ve seen here though, I’m being asked to assign guilt by association. That is the bottom line. To make conclusions when those conclusion are really inconclusive and could also be from trappings of previous experiences or association of experiences that we mirror to this particular issue. The possibility of self deception is too exposed. So I won’t agree or disagree to the conclusion you have assumed. The dots, as you said, need to be connected. So while the dots are not connected there is the possibility to be wrong. You and I can look at the same documents and reach different conclusions. Then there is the theory of degrees, you know the shit may not be deep and if it is how deep is it? or there may not be any shit at all and the smell is coming from next door.

Geez even Einstein, considered the greatest mind of the 20th century by many, was wrong on some things and had to revise and reconsider some of his earlier theories. And even at the time of his death he knew he didn’t accomplish all that he wanted to. There were some things that were inconclusive. There are a lot mitigating variables, or technicalities as you call them, that can go either way and blow your conclusion out of the water. If you are right I wouldn’t be surprised. As a matter of fact I would be more surprised if you were wrong. Is that fair enough?

But hey, like I said somewhere in this thread, I’m an old fart. Been around a long time and with time I’ve become more analytical. I look to separate fact from motives even though I admit we all have motives and are never perfectly objective. You have to question the question and then question the answer that can get you back to square one. Sounds crazy? maybe it is. In reality based on my life experience I’m a stateless and don’t feel any patriotism or loyalty to any country. I oppose man-made national borders but then I oppose globalization. How can both be accomplished? I don’t know I haven’t figured it out yet. So there are many contradictions, not just in me, but in all people. Is it hypocrisy? no, just contradictions. I’m not feigning what I am not.

I remember the events leading to the Iraq War. How most everyone on the left and the right was fooled by the cooked intelligence. Yet there was enough information out there in the media for a person to conclude that WMDs were not proven to exist beyond doubt. Despite the intelligence I could not connect the dots. Really quite the opposite, I was convinced that Saddam did not posses WMDs and that we would not attack because the dots had not been connected even though some said they were. So confident was I that we would not attack that I assured my kid to join the Army cause we were not going to go to war.  He served one tour in Iraq. When he got back I sought the help of a group that helped me get him out and he did 2 years out of 4 he signed up for. The point is that all the evidence pointed to no WMDs prior. I can not connect the dots conclusively on with Colombia the way I did with Iraq.

“I am done with this thread.”

Good riddance.

I , for one, wholeheartedly applaud this self imposed exile…good riddance indeed.

DieDaily, January 16 at 6:15 pm #

“Alright then Jay, suddenly our foreign policy changed
into angelic benevolence because the CIA suddenly
found Gandhi. Our corporation suddenly became
bastions of philanthropic selflessness. Our drug-
lords and tin-pots in the area all found Jesus and
are now handing out flowers instead of double-taps.
The SOA is now a finishing school for young preppy girl scouts who now deploy in pink choppers armed
with state of the art cookie delivery systems. Your
ignorance is not only profound, it is profoundly
defiant of every basic fact and precedent. And those
precedents are UNIFORMLY unflattering to us.”

Now you’re taking it to other extreme. I know it must be frustrating for you to make an affirmation that “the US finances Death Squads in Colombia” and then be unable to back it up.

“You have
been epically owned. Just read back over this whole
thread.”

No you’ve been owned. You still haven’t shown anything credible that the US finances Colombian Death Squads. You haven’t made the connection. The baseless argument you’ve presented you have been unable to support. Well maybe in your own delusional mind. If this were a court of law your case would have been thrown out for lack of evidence.

” You have failed to overturn one criticism
with solid facts.”

I’ve overturned every single allegation you and others have made. You have been unable to provide any solid facts. Just your own misguided conclusions.

“You have proposed niggling and
evasive objections that at best speak to the
peripheral details of the solid arguments presented,
leaving them in the main fully ignored.”

I feel the same way about you and the rest of your friends here.

” The sources
you cite are so selective as to represent a true feat
of cherry picking and inattention to the main fact-
base. I’m as gratified that there warn’t more than
one operative making apologies for our criminal
actions as”

Oh you you don’t post selective sources? how can you not see your own hypocrisy and narrow-mindedness?

Like the saying goes, “your entitled to your opinion but not your own set of facts”. This fits you and your friends here perfectly like a glove.

I’m not apologizing for anything. I’m just more objective pragmatic than you. I refused to be bullshitted. Your arguments is to satisfy your own ideological agenda. Nothing more.

“I am done with this thread.”

Good riddance.

Alright then Jay, suddenly our foreign policy changed
into angelic benevolence because the CIA suddenly
found Gandhi. Our corporation suddenly became
bastions of philanthropic selflessness. Our drug-
lords and tin-pots in the area all found Jesus and
are now handing out flowers instead of double-taps.
The SOA is now a finishing school for young preppy girl scouts who now deploy in pink choppers armed
with state of the art cookie delivery systems. Your
ignorance is not only profound, it is profoundly
defiant of every basic fact and precedent. And those
precedents are UNIFORMLY unflattering to us. You have
been epically owned. Just read back over this whole
thread. You have failed to overturn one criticism
with solid facts. You have proposed niggling and
evasive objections that at best speak to the
peripheral details of the solid arguments presented,
leaving them in the main fully ignored. The sources
you cite are so selective as to represent a true feat
of cherry picking and inattention to the main fact-
base. I’m as gratified that there warn’t more than
one operative making apologies for our criminal
actions as I am done with this thread.

ardee, January 16 at 9:54 am #

“http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/15551

Nothing in this article about the US financing death squads in Colombia. At least this is more recent and doesn’t take us back to 1950s Guatemala.

Yes terrible. Horrible things still do happen in Colombia. No one is denying that. Like I said I watch news from Colombia daily. I try to read as much as I can ElTiempo.com, ElEspectador.com, ElColombiano.net and Semana.com. Semana is particular good in its exposes. You guys should check these out for a few years so you get a feel for what is really going on you and don’t indict and judge out of ignorance from a few ideologically selected articles that satisfy your ideological positions.

“http://motherjones.com/politics/2000/08/colombias-death-squads”

Again, nothing in this article about the US financing death squads in Colombia.

This article goes back to the year 2000. That was the reality back then more so than today. The article is not much of a reflection of the the present day Colombia under the Uribe administration and his cleansing of government institutions. Uribe has been consistent in trying to clean up corrupt criminal elements in Colombian institutions such as the military (Fuerzas Armadas Colombianas-FAC) national police (Policia Nacional-PN) and DAS (Departamento Administrativo de Seguridad). Uribe has been purging criminal elements when exposed. Top officials in these agencies have been been indicted and/or forced to resign and/or retire. Officers and politicians under suspicion of collaborating with the AUCs have been prosecuted and/or forced into retirement including Uribe’s own 1st cousin. Soldiers and police that commit atrocities are being prosecuted and jailed. Top right wing and left wing paramilitaries leaders and commanders have been extradited to the US as I’ve stated before in this thread . Uribe seem to be doing all the right things.

“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/17/AR2009121703007.html”

Another article that doesn’t confirm that the US is financing death squads in Colombia.

It only confirms what I’ve been saying all along.

“http://www.boston.com/news/world/latinamerica/articles/2007/01/18/testimony_details_death_squad_acts_in_colombia/”

Again, more of the same. Nothing in this article about the US financing death squads in Colombia.

Some of these right wing militants that have been extradited have made accusation against some government officials, including Uribe, that they later had to retracted because events and evidence showed they were lying. This is common knowledge and an instrument of revenge used by these criminals. Why doesn’t anybody here know that?

continued

continued

ardee

“There are so many more such indictments of the propaganda spewed by our resident defender of falsehoods as to boggle ones mind at his futile attempt.”

Oh ardee, and there is so much credible information contradicting what you or anybody here has been unable to prove with credible information. That the US is financing death squads in Colombia. Really ardee what is the ideological agenda you and others have here? Where is the pragmatism? Typical of Americans to be so self-righteous and deluded both on the right and the left. Self appointed judges and juries of the morality of others with no middle ground. Either one has to subscribe to the extremism on the right or the extremism on the left. America is becoming a totally delusional nation living in its own bubble of fantasies and conspiracy theories.

You know that these paramilitary groups (the AUCs, the FARC and the ELN) are all in the drug business. That’s how they finance their paramilitary operations. They terrorize and murder civilians, they massacre indigenous peoples, they plant car bombs, assassinate politicians that oppose them, they kidnap and take hostages, some hostages being held beyond 12 years, they plant land mines that kill and maim peasants and farmers. It goes on and on.

So you know who really finances terrorists death squads in Colombia? The occasional drug user that takes a hit of coke at a party or a disco and habitual drug user. That could be your son or daughter, your brother or sister, your friends at work or school, your parents and maybe even you.

That is who is financing Colombian death squads. So anytime any of you decide to take that hit of coke just remember what your money is financing. Death squads.

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/15551

not for the faint of heart….

http://motherjones.com/politics/2000/08/colombias-death-squads

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/17/AR2009121703007.html

http://www.boston.com/news/world/latinamerica/articles/2007/01/18/testimony_details_death_squad_acts_in_colombia/

There are so many more such indictments of the propaganda spewed by our resident defender of falsehoods as to boggle ones mind at his futile attempt.

DieDaily

“Here are ONLY THE REALLY NOTORIOUS TOP 100 or so
http://www.derechos.org/soa/colom-not.html”

Look at your list. There is not one individual in that list that is implicated under the last two Colombian administrations. Not one. I mean you can go into the past and dig up shit that does not reflect the present. Why are you so stuck on the past and transpose your prejudices to the present. Even though Colombia still has problems with its internal war things are much better today. Sure shit happens, but shit happens here in the US and just about everywhere else. The difference on the Colombian street is night and day. I know because I’ve seen the change from my visits to my in-laws over the years. I can walk down the street and be relatively safe. You couldn’t do that 20 years ago.

Let me ask you, have you or any of you ever been to Colombia?

The 1970’s, the 1980’s and the very early 1990’s were very violent periods in Colombia. I’ve been married to a Colombian woman for over 30 years and I lived all those traumatic years I mentioned. I’ve seen the change and for you and others to come dig up the past and pass judgement on an a nation is dishonest and despicable.

BR549, January 15 at 10:12 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

““I still don’t see that “the US finances Death Squads in Colombia”.””

“WHAT? ...... duh! When I brought up the Dulles brothers before, they were just
one small part of a huge problem.”

Hey duh! I’m talking about present day Colombia. Not something that happened over 60 years ago in Arbenz’s Guatemala involving United Fruit Company, the CIA and the Dulles brothers. Nothing to do with Colombia. Like I said to Nigh-Gaunt and DieDaily show proof that the US finances Death Squads in Colombia.

I’m waiting but nobody seems to be able provide credible information. Credible source that the US intentionally and knowingly finances said death squads in Colombia. I have an open mind, convince me. You guys seem to have all the answers. So fill me in, I want to be as smart as you. But don’t use something that happened over 60 years ago and expect to convince me, or any rational person, that the US finances Death Squads in Colombia. Like in present day as it was alluded to and is what I’m challeging.

Geez, using that retrospective rationale that DieDaily, Night-Gaunt and you have we can allege that the Portuguese are still sending African slaves to Brazil.

Guys, you got to have some parameters and not come to speculative conclusions based on assumptions and suspicions.

DieDaily

“Again, Jay, the US government really is synonymous
with Chiquita Bananas, and not just in our minds” How could you not know this? .

I don’t agree. Because I don’t I agree doesn’t mean I don’t know. I just have a different perspective based on my own life experiences. Of course the US government protects US businesses abroad and in some occassions elements of the government even does their bidding. That is their job overseas, to protect Americans. Even though as we know they have abused this power throughout the world not just in Latin America. In the case of Chiquita for example is not the same as the situation in Guatemala back in the 1950s were the US government had a more direct role with multi-nationals. But that was in the 1950s you can’t make the same argument in this case which we are discussing. There were consequences for Chiquita in the US and in Colombia. The connection is only in your mind. You can’t just generalize everything in to one basket. So now make the recent case with Chiquita directly to the US government.

The School of the Americas?
These are savory people? I can’t believe this is new
information to you.

Of course I know about the SOA. I’m old fart I’ve been around for a long time. I’ve known what they been up to for the past 35 years.

“Here, if you want absolute
primary-source info about Columbia. This lists, by last name, all of the over 1600 people who were Columbian graduates and instructors of the SOA.
http://www.derechos.org/soa/co-grads.html”

So what does that prove? That over 1600 Colombians gradiuated from SOA, so what? I’m sure some of them were unsavory characters. That all 1600 Colombian graduates ran death squads? and the relatively few that did commit atrocities were directly financed by the US as Nigh-Gaunt speculates? show proof. And I want to see recent proof not shit that went down 20, 30, 40 years ago. Come on DieHard be realistic. You’re just generalizing and judging all because of some bad apples.

“Here are ONLY THE REALLY NOTORIOUS TOP 100 or so
http://www.derechos.org/soa/colom-not.html”

Okay, so you came up with 100 names not 1600. You got bad cops who go to police academies where they are taught all kinds of tactics to inflict pain and get you to be submissive along with good cops, does that make good cops bad? Same principle here. You’re not being rational. You’re generalizing.

This doesn’t make irrefuteble make your case.

“Dude, if you don’t even know about this then you have either a profound need to do some basic reading or an overriding and intensely fact-filtering agenda.”

Basic reading? You mean what you decide to read, could it also be posible that you may be the one with overriding and intensely fact-filtering agenda? You may be making assumptions and coming to general conclusions and making speculations. You can’t just throw everythinig int the mix and expect to get gumbo, there are no absolutes. Only the ones you decide on. Come on, I’m not as gullible to believe everything I read just because it may fit an ideological agenda. If I wanted to believe in something I would have no trouble finding material to support those beliefs. There are no absolutes. You have to filter through the ideology to get the true story. It’s not always black and white. Most of the times its different shades of gray.

So whose facts? The ones you choose? Only one side of the story? There are many sides. That’s what makes us all different.

ardee, January 14 at 7:26 am #

Oh,Inherit Do you not realize that your descent into babbling about Castro’s supposed sex life makes whatever truths your post may contain rather irrelevant?
**********************************************

Only if they are false.  Because how a man acts when he’s grabbed total power tells you who he is.  All dictators seem to have appetites for things that go ‘WAY beyond the norm. 

Castro, like Mao, used his power to indulge his sexual appetite at a gargantuan rate, a rate that meant his partners were NOT willing but coerced.
We aren’t talking about boffing an intern here or there—we are talking about an appetite of having 2 women a day, solely as a receptical for his penis.  Teams scoured Cuba for women Castro would like, pulling them out of public places, so El Jefe could f*** them.

That’s may make Castro the greatest rapist in history.  It gives a WHOLE NEW SLANT to cold retort to Barbara Walters’ question about his sex life that it was beneath dignifying with an answer.

What kind of compromise does THAT mean for your society when it may be YOUR daughter, wife or sister plucked off the street and forced to f*** El Jefe?

Furthermore, the idea that the Cuban succession of power is going to ... his brother, puts the whole idea of Marxism and competency to the lie.  It’s just another form of blood royalty.

What little we know of Saddam seems similar.

When NO rules can be enforced on you, your only limit on your path to excess is your own, limited imagination for evil.

Again, Jay, the US government really is synonymous
with Chiquita Bananas, and not just in our minds. How
could you not know this? The School of the Americas?
These are savory people? I can’t believe this is new
information to you. Here, if you want absolute
primary-source info about Columbia

This lists, by last name, all of the over 1600 people
who were Columbian graduates and instructors of the
SOA.
http://www.derechos.org/soa/co-grads.html

Here are ONLY THE REALLY NOTORIOUS TOP 100 or so
http://www.derechos.org/soa/colom-not.html
Dude, if you don’t even know about this then you have
either a profound need to do some basic reading or an
overriding and intensely fact-filtering agenda.

You made some interesting points about Cuba, Jay, but
you are fast descending into knee-jerk nationalism.
Such ignorance of the basic role the US has played in
S.A. is easy to understand in stupid, gullible
people. But you seem really intelligent. So WTF guy?
Open your eyes!

Night-Gaunt

The link you posted:
http://www.counterpunch.org/krebs03162007.html
“Testimony details death squad acts in Colombia - The Boston Globe”

I remember that story too. But the article doesn’t prove your argument.
That “the US finances Death Squads in Colombia”.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/BUSINESS/09/11/chiquita.terrorism/
“Chiquita: $25M fine for terror payments”

Quote:
“The payments to the group, known as the AUC, went through the company’s Colombian subsidiary, Banadex, from 1997 to 2004, according to court documents filed in the case.

Court papers also say Chiquita paid Colombia’s two leftist guerrilla groups, the FARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia) and ELN (National Liberation Army) from about 1989 to 1997. At the time, according to court documents, those groups controlled areas where the company grew bananas.

The AUC, FARC and ELN are all combatants in Colombia’s decade-long civil war, and all have been designated as terrorist organizations by the United States.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/20/AR2007032001698.html
“Colombia May Seek Chiquita Extraditions”

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/mar/22/world/fg-colombia22
“Colombia investigates Chiquita”

http://www.colectivodeabogados.org/CHIQUITA-BOARD-MEMBERS-TOTAL
“CHIQUITA BOARD MEMBERS: TOTAL IDENTIFICATION”

I still don’t see that “the US finances Death Squads in Colombia”.

Is the US government synonymous with Chiquita Bananas in your mind?

Night-Gaunt

None of the massacres quoted in the article about the SOA happened in Colombia. You need to find a massacre that happened in Colombia. Show that the perpetrator was trained in the SOA, financed by the US and then link the murders to a Colombian head of state with convincing and reputable documentation.

If you can’t do that then the whole premise of your argument is invalid. An unproven hypothesis.

The last dictator that Colombia had was Gustavo Rojas Pinilla back in the 1950s. So if your argument is about the Colombia of the 1950s its a different story from the Colombia of today.

Night-Gaunt

On your post of January 8 at 2:00 pm you gave the following affirmation.

“Death squads trained and armed by the USA too.”

This statement is what I take issue with. None of those links you provided establishes what you state above, that “the US finances Death Squads in Colombia”.

I already elaborated substantially to make my point clear. I feel like I’m talking past you and you haven’t read a complete sentence I’ve posted. You argue with me even if I agree with you. Most anybody knows about the School of the Americas. It’s elementary knowledge. You post these links like its some kind of a secret that nobody ever heard about except you. They were training thugs to do the dirty work for CIA backed right-wing dictators. This is nothing new. It doesn’t prove the basic premise of your argument.

Let’s take an example. John Allen Muhammad, aka John Allen Williams or the DC sniper. U.S. Army officials confirmed that Williams had earned an expert rating with the Colt M-16, the standard infantry rifle issued by the U.S. Military. The expert badge is the highest of three levels of marksmanship attainable by soldiers receiving basic training. By your logic the US Army was behind the sniper shootings because the US Army trained Williams. That just doesn’t make any rational sense. You haven’t substantiated your initial argument.

It’s a bit frustrating going in circles with you. I never said that Uribe was a Libertarian. I explained to you that the term Liberal for the purposes of Latin American politics is SIMILAR to the concept of Libertarianism here in the US. In other words little government interference in the economic and social issues. You know Adam Smith’s invisible hand fairy tale and the market will fix everything delusion.

As for Uribe accusations against him have been going on for decades. None of the allegations have been able to stick. There has never been any conclusive proof linking Uribe to any of the allegations. Are they true? Maybe. I don’t know and neither do you. So if not proven then we must give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. Colombian politics are dirty like all politics including here in the US. Politicians will say almost anything to destroy a rival. We see it here in the US all the time: Government insurance death panels, Obama’s Waterloo, Obama is a Muslim, Obama is a Socialist, Obama was born in Kenya, Obama is a not a US citizen, etc. etc.

The Guardian link mentions seized computers from right wing militias. Now who do you think seized those computers? Grandma? I have Caracol and NTN24, both Colombian channels that I watch the news every day. I don’t exactly recall because it was over 2 years ago but it was the military or the national police which come under the chain of command of Uribe who seized them. If it was self incriminating why would he release them? Do you know how many extradition orders Uribe has signed to extradite right-wing paras to face US justice?

I don’t want to keep repeating myself if you don’t get it.

“Right, that is all common knowledge. What is your point? What conclusions are you drawing? That the US directly finances Colombian para’s? That is an erroneous assumption. You can’t draw absolute conclusion by just scratching the surface like you’re doing. There is a lot more involved and more complicated than you can conclude from these two articles. You can’t just draw general blanket conclusions based on a ideological agenda which is what you appear to be doing.”Jay1953

YOu seem to me to be the one on the ideological horse in this case. As to the USA directly funding, or just arming and training, have a look at this…

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Terrorism/SOA.html
“School of the Americas:
School of Assassins, USA”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/.../colombia.sibyllabrodzinsky
“And as the political crisis snowballs it is also closing in on the country’s top leadership. “No one knows how high this goes,” said Adam Isacson, who monitors Colombia for the Washington-based think-tank Centre for International Policy.”

http://www.counterpunch.org/krebs03162007.html
“Testimony details death squad acts in Colombia - The Boston Globe”

Could you possible be wrong in your assessment of Columbia? The USA’s influence there for such a long time and so deep into the right wing culture & the Conservative War on Drugs. (A real Libertarian would have ended it and the USA’s shenanigans in their country. Rather like what is done here—no foreign bases here now is there?)

Well, Jay has some points. I definitely don’t think
Cuba is a utopia, nor do I think Castro is an angel
or saint. But until we lift sanctions and in general
quit interfering with Cuba and its environs, as well
as Central & South America in general, it’s hard to
make any objective criticism of the regime. It is
beyond doubt that what they HAVE managed to
accomplish has been done despite our very best
efforts. Compared to the despots we’ve typically
sponsored, Castro might as well be an angel or saint.

The Castro regime will remain in power as long as we
“fight” that regime. The big secret is that, regardless of the system they use, they are
succeeding against a super power and really kicking
our but in the areas of medicine, education and
social programs in general. That’s just a fact. Any
nonsense about their plan to balk the IMF having
“backfired” is fantasy. There are NO happy endings
with the IMF. Even Iceland has experienced that now,
as have we in the US and even Canada where I live (as
a US citizen). Cuba is only on our enemy list because
their success is a huge breach in our image of invincible imperial dominance.

Jay, you made some OK points even if your fundamental
thesis is wrong. I would advocate stepping back and
looking at the big picture. You want the people of
Cuba freed from an evil dictator? Well, easy done.
Stop all sanctions, encourage all trade, stay out of
their hair. Almost overnight they will know such
wealth that civil freedom, to the extent it is
missing right now, will ensue very rapidly. To think
that the status quo is working is to ignore recent
history. It just isn’t working. Not only have we NOT
been able to make the regime go away, but we’ve had
our face rubbed in the mud again and again. How
embarrassing is it to have a “Podunk rogue nation”
like Cuba kicking our buts on a hundredth of the
budget?

It’s simple, the powers that be don’t want that
success getting out, getting attention. If it does,
then we might demand Cuba-level services at a
hundredth the cost too, and why not? Jay, you REALLY
need to read John Perkins “Confessions of an Economic
Hit Man” and “The Secret History of the American
Empire”. You vastly, vastly, vastly underestimate how
evil our government’s foreign policies have been.
It’s been true animal brutality and low cunning.
Despicable. We are culpable.

P.S. My step-mom is from Ecuador, not Cuba. Her rich
dad fled for his life with the family in the 70s for
Edmonton, Alberta. As she put it, if she had been
from Cuba she would likely still be there. She points
out that people who flee Cuba are not always the most
objective about Cuba. They are a priori likely to be
discontent (hence they leave Cuba).

Oh,Inherit Do you not realize that your descent into babbling about Castro’s supposed sex life makes whatever truths your post may contain rather irrelevant?

What is interesting is that this is what ALWAYS happens on TD:
One side: Cuba is a paradise and a paradigm of Socialism.  It is peaceful and never did anything to justify any actions against it.
Other side: Cuba is a hell-hole and founders under dictatorship.  It needs to be crushed.

Neither is correct.

It seems to me that to claim that Cuba is NOW a terrorist nation, fostering terrorism is at BEST a gross exaggeration and at WORST completely false.

But to claim Cuba has NEVER fostered terrorism is absurd.  The unnecessarily brutal revolution in Mozambique, that turned a healthy economy into a wreck happened with Cuban forces.  Castro sent 100,000 troops overseas, reducing unemployment by 100,000 since they were paid for by other sponsors.  He attempted to foment a similar revolution in South Africa.  Thankfully, he failed and Apartheid was overthrown by far more benign means.

Angola? Not much better.  But all that ended when the Soviet Union fell. I don’t see much evidence that Cuba has been in the terror biz for about 20 years now.

Castro’s probably better than most dictators—if you don’t mind that he f***ed two woman a day for 50 years and they were “recruited” by his special team off beaches and out of restaurants.  No way he charmed 35,000 woman to screw him—they were fundamentally given an “...or else”.  Still, unlike a Mugabe or a Bashir, the people are probably better off and living a much more secure life.

But, despite all the rhetoric and dogma, how does the transfer of power work? By “royal” succession to his brother, Raul.  Yeah that Socialism is working real good in Cuba!

Jason

NO.

Night-Gaunt

Right, that is all common knowledge. What is your point? What conclusions are you drawing? That the US directly finances Colombian para’s? That is an erroneous assumption. You can’t draw absolute conclusion by just scratching the surface like you’re doing. There is a lot more involved and more complicated than you can conclude from these two articles. You can’t just draw general blanket conclusions based on a ideological agenda which is what you appear to be doing.

Now if you told me that the US directly sponsors Israeli state terrorism against Palestinians civilians I would wholeheartedly agree since I’ve done extensive research on the issue and I believe it true. The US is arming Israelis directly and they attack defenseless civilians with those arms. That is black and white. Even though on the surface both issues may appear the same they are not. On one hand you have a country, Israel, snubbing its nose at US law and using offensive military weapons to attack defenseless civilians and we keep arming them and look the other way. On the other hand you have a country, Colombia, not snubbing its nose at US law and arresting and prosecuting those using offensive military weapons to attack defenseless civilians and incarcerating them when they do break the law including US law. We keep arming Colombia because they have shown good faith as to their objectives and use of those weapons but undoubtedly they may be misused by corrupt elements within the armed forces. Right now there are 17 soldiers being prosecuted for murdering civilians. For example if you have an army brigade selling arms to right wing paras for money that may be beyond the control of the government unless they get caught. The same if army units arm the paras to help them fight leftist guerrillas and the army agrees to look the other way to their drug trafficking. It was more prevalent in the past but under Uribe the purging of these criminal elements have been energetically pursued within the arm forces. What is the interest of the US? regional hegemony and drugs. Even though the drug problem could for the most part be solved by legalizing, taxing and regulating distribution. The devil is in the details as they say.

Latin American politics is a different animal. For example even though I admire the socio-democratic countries in Europe which to us in the US are socialists, I wish that the US was more like Europe. I can not say the same for Latin American socialism. I don’t agree with the leftist agenda in Latin America which is trying to emulate the Cuban model which is Stalinist. Of course I make some exceptions with Lula of Brazil and Bachelet of Chile both who are playing a very pragmatic hand.

Uribe of Colombia follows a Liberal agenda which in Latin America is similar to what we call Libertarians. I like his security agenda of eliminating the narco-terrorist of the right and left wing militias in addition to going after corrupt elements of Colombian institutions. It has brought a lot of security on the street. I personally don’t like Libertarians because I’m more of a socialist-progressive but there are some things that Libertarian have right. Like a policy of none intervention but I oppose their free trade ideology. Anyway enough for today.

“But do you have that capacity?”

I already humbled myself and apologized to you for offending you. Does that mean you don’t accept my apology?

My “Columbian expertise” was never claimed. And yes I misspelled it so get off that minor point. Sounds to me like the Columbians got a deal they couldn’t refuse from the USA on that so where was I wrong? True I just pulled the FMLN out of my memory and it was wrong. I should have looked it up to be sure but didn’t. So you have knowledge in this area I don’t. Very good. Just that you are a sore winner—reminds me of Republicans everywhere.

http://a4a.mahost.org/death.html

# SOLDIERS MURDER HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS
# 18 CAMPESINOS WERE MASSACRED BY THE PARAMILITARIES IN 24 HOURS
# THE UNITED STATES DONATED HELICOPTERS TO GOVERNMENT WORTH 20 MILLION DOLLARS—excerpt

and

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/nov/29/colombia.sibyllabrodzinsky

“Colombia’s political establishment is being shaken to its core by almost daily revelations of how allies of President Alvaro Uribe apparently worked hand-in-hand with feared rightwing militias who used terror for more than a decade to impose their will on the population.”

“The country’s supreme court this week ordered six high profile, pro-Uribe politicians - including the foreign minister’s brother - to submit to questioning about their alleged links with the paramilitary groups, which are blamed for the massacre, murder and torture of thousands of Colombians.”—excerpt

I could go on but you get the gist. I was wrong not making sure what I said was correct. But do you have that capacity?

Night-Gaunt

My gosh I’m flabbergasted by your ignorance on Colombia. You haven’t even addressed one of the points I answered you.

First I already apologized to you for calling you a a moron. I insult those that insult me. Like I said I went through the thread and saw you weren’t one of them. But if you want to discuss this on that level, with insults and name calling, I have no problems trading insult with you and calling you names.

Now as to your Colombian expertise it’s none existent and I mus say you don’t know what you’re talking about. You even can’t spell the name correctly.

First you refer to FMLN which is not even a Colombian group, it is from El Salvador. So your ignorance has been unmasked. Why didn’t you know that?  Cause you don’t know squat nor what you’re talking about, but you think you do which is even worse.

“Did you know there is a treaty signed between them where US personnel cannot be prosecuted over what they do? Like supporting the right wing paramilitaries?”

Since in your mass confusion and ignorance I’m assuming that you are talking about Colombia and not El Salvador. You are wrong, wrong, wrong. The new treaty between the US and Colombia for the use of 14 airbases there is no immunity for US personnel if they commit crimes against the local population. For you to make that assumption is grossly ignorant. Why didn’t you know that?

“Panama didn’t exist until the USA got Columbia to cede it to them so that the American built Panama Canal can be under USA jurisdiction in 1904.”

Panamanian independence from Colombia was in 1903 not in 1904. Why didn’t you know that?
Panama was not ceded to the US by Colombia. Colombia had contracted the French, who had built the Suez Canal, to build a canal and the French failed. The US and Colombia couldn’t agree on the Canal in Panama so the US promoted Panamanian independence from Colombia. Panama declared independence, the US had troops dispatched to Panama to guarantee said independence, in exchange the US got the Canal Zone. Now why didn’t you know that?

“Now why would Columbia had done that?”

Oh, I know you already have an ideological and conspiracy tainted answer. The fact is that the US was going to take Panama by force and build their canal anyway. Take it just like did in Cuba, Puerto Rico and the Philippines. Colombia had the choice to go to war with the US and lose or take a cash payment instead. They took the money. Under the Hay-Herran Treaty Colombia received $10 million dollars. Gee, why didn’t you know that?

Now give me your answer for I am interested in it.

“Right now Columbia is the major base for US operations in the middle & lower Americas though the Honduran coup opened that up a little more.”

So what else is new? Are these thing you’re just finding out now? The one that’s going to have to watch his step is Chavez, he might wind up sharing a cell with Noriega.

“No harm no foul if we can maintain civility here.”

Agreed.

Mr.1953

I’ll shut up when I bloody well please. Intimidation and insult probably works for you most of the time but it ain’t working here. What are you going to do, drag Dick Cheney out of his wheelchair to give me a pallid sneer? Make a few phone calls?

You accusing me of racism is like a pick-pocket who gets his hand caught around someone’s wallet and so points his finger at someone else and yells loudly, “Thief! Thief!” It’s called distraction and it still doesn’t alter the basic fact of your hypocrisy.

You and your manufactured “facts” and your selective links harp on about Cuba. But in comparison to the truly monumental horrors and injustices in other South and Latin American countries, Cuba looks pretty darn good. But you don’t want to talk about that. You just want to keep hammering on Cuba. Spreading lies and disinformation about the Cuban government has been a sad component of elements of the Miami Cuban exile community since it arrived, and that’s the facts, Jack. You can try and hide any criticism of the Miami exile community behind charges of “racism” but the facts are what they are—and they’re very provable.

If you were really interested in justice and equality in Latin America, you’d start at the bottom and work your way to the top, not the reverse. You’d start with Honduras, or El Salvador, or Colombia, for instance. But, of course, justice and equality is the last thing you’re interested in. If you were, you’d be working for a better America. And to stop the embargo against Cuba that most of the world has repeatedly condemned. I don’t imagine we’ll hear much from you on that, though.

Of course when I do you will simply say it isn’t “credible” won’t you? But then considering your expertise in Cuba but gross ignorance of Columbia I wonder. More ideological perhaps? Noticed I have not demanded you show me that same detailed and credible documentation have I? Also calling you an “ass” when you acted like one is far different from you calling me “idiot” and “moron” which slips so easily off your tongue because of my political incorrectness to your world view. A bad habit you have. Do you do that in general conversation?

The connexions of the USA to Columbia and to fighting “narco traffickers” & the “revolutionaries” (FMLN) are one in the same. Why didn’t you know that? Did you know there is a treaty signed between them where US personnel cannot be prosecuted over what they do? Like supporting the right wing para-militaries?

One thing I won’t stoop to is to call you names (when I simply disagree with you) or impugn your intelligence. Can you say the same after this?

Panama didn’t exist until the USA got Columbia to cede it to them so that the American built Panama Canal can be under USA jurisdiction in 1904. Now why would Columbia had done that? Give me your answer for I am interested in it. Right now Columbia is the major base for US operations in the middle & lower Americas though the Honduran coup opened that up a little more.

No harm no foul if we can maintain civility here.

Peetawonkus

Really?

I wasn’t there nor did I see it on the tube.

I did see Republican staffers that were flown in from DC and elsewhere to do what you describe. Didn’t hear anything about Miami-Cubans.

I could be wrong though, so the burden of proof is on you now, since you made the claim. So prove it or shut up.

Still, I would say you are just blowing racist comments out your ass. Your stereotypical hate for one group is undisguisable. Do you also hate Mexicans? Asians? Brown skinned people? Arabs? Jews? What? I know its not politically correct to hate blacks, or manifest hate for blacks openly, so I know racist hate for black people you probably keep in the closet, except around close friends that think like you, and you focus your xenophobic prejudices to politically correct groups, right?

All you do is come in here and make inane and baseless comments. How much more pathetic can you get?

Ah, yes, the beating down of people who inconvenience them with their own hypocrisy. Typical.

I remember in 2000, during the stealing of the first Bush election, the Miami Cuban exile community, like the good Republicans they are, would show up at places where votes were being counted to roar and scream death threats at the people working inside. Apparently insult and intimidation are the skills they brought with them.

Peetawonkus

What an inane and senseless response.

You would do better to keep your mouth shut and stay out of issues that are way over your head.

Mr.1953 can spell “Colombia”—but can’t seem to get much else right. He still fails to see the essential hypocrisy between his stance on Cuba vis-a-vis other Latin and South American nations. Apparently, because Cuba’s revolution isn’t perfect, it must be torn down. These aren’t people who are arguing that Cuba become a better Socialist nation. Their point is that Cuba will only be a better nation when the Cuban revolution is totally destroyed. But—of course—as Mr.1953 declares, he is not a right-winger. He just does their dirty work for them.

Night-Gaunt

Okay man, I’ll answer you know. I won’t keep you in suspense. This is going to be fast.

“what about Colombia?” (I corrected your spelling)

What about it?

“A client state of the USA for over a century”

In what sense? Be more specific.

“a part was cleaved off to create the protectorate of Panama for the USA.”

I would say that the US forced Colombia to give up Panama with a little gunboat diplomacy. The US was ready with troops to kick some Colombian ass if they contested Panamanian independence from Colombia. Under those circumstances it doesn’t sound like Colombia was a client state for over a century like you claim.

“The third largest recipient of money, after Israel and Egypt”

Sure Colombia receives money and military hardware from the US to combat drug trafficking and the narco-terrorists organizations such as the FARC, the ELN and AUC’s. So what is your point?

“and is one of the cocaine capitals of the Americas.”

Cocaine capital? What does that phrase mean to you? Sounds rhetorical. A bullet point in the style that Republicans use. Like Palin’s death panel remark.

“Death squads trained and armed by the USA too.”

I already answered this and I’m waiting for you to back up that affirmation in my last post.

“How does that square in relation to Cuba?”

You tell me?

“True Columbia has had elections”

Agreed.

“but if you aren’t with the USA you die or disappear (then die)”

Where in the hell do you get this idea from? There is plenty of outspoken political opposition and critics like Sen. Piedad Cordoba and Sen. Gustavo Pietro. Unfortunately for the opposition President Uribe has the highest popularity ratings among his people than any other president in any other country in Latin America. So I think he will go for a third term even though I don’t agree with it because it becomes a caudillismo like Chavez, Correa and Morales.

“and Cuba has had a dictator since 1959.”

Yes it has and its just as appropriate to condemn and criticize Castro as you would Pinochet, Stroesner, Videla, Noriega, Somoza and Ortega’s 11 years in the 80’s. A dictator is a dictator no matter what the color of his collar. To not do so is to be a hypocrite so I’m glad you make a critical inference to Castro.

“I don’t like dictators but the USA made sure Castro had a reason to stay in power when they declare war on him.”

No I don’t see it that way. Castro was going to stay in power even if the US hadn’t attempted to assassinate him. Power is his whole objective. 51 years, come on he would have gotten over it by now.

“[Without the Congress of course.]”

Yep, as far as I know there was no congressional approval for the assassination attempts.

“What say you?”

Bill? O’Reilly” Is that you?

One more thing, I take back the moron comment. You didn’t deserve that. I reviewed the thread and you weren’t one of the ones throwing insults. So I apologize. But don’t call me an ass either cause insults can go both ways.

Night-Gaunt

Well thank you. You’re finally an expert on Colombia. You learned to spell it after all. Maybe you’re not as big a moron as I though, but you’re still a moron. I hope you prove me wrong, I doubt it though.

Tell me how many times you been to Colombia?
How many Colombian people do you know?

Start doing your homework and research.

I’ll throw a bone at you, give you a head start:
You state, “Death squads trained and armed by the USA too”.

You’re an idiot to make that affirmation, so you better be ready to back it up with concrete documentation from a credible source because if you don’t you’re just blowing it out your ass.

I’ll answer you in the next few days. I got sh!t to do.

Don’t be an ass to deflect from my question—what’s the problem? You don’t like my question? You need to be more intelligent than that here. A misspelling is irrelevant to the question now isn’t it? So answer it please if you dare Jay1953.

“C-o-l-o-m-b-i-a,” now what reason do you have? And don’t for a moment think those other places weren’t named for the “discoverer of America.”

No need for subterfuge—-just say it, don’t lie.

DieDaily

“some valid points, many that I just can’t
square with the facts as I understand them”.

I appreciate your sincerity and respect. So I’ll reciprocate.

On my last post I indicated some of the sources of income for the dictatorship. Another source of income is the $1.4 billion sent to the island by Cuban expatriates. About 60% is electronic remittances which the government takes a 20% tariff. The other 40% is money given to Cubans on the island by visiting relatives. This does not count the medicines and other necessities shipped by the expatriates or taken to the island on visits. There is also telephone charges that can cost anywhere from .65 cents per minute and up. On visits I’m allowed to take 44 pounds, 2 pieces of luggage usually very large duffel bags. Anything above that is $2/pound. I normally take toiletries, soap, deodorant, shaving cream toothbrushes, etc. I take clothes and other necessities requested such as shoes. I basically come back with just the clothes on my back.

I agree with some of your points such as the US attempts to assassinate Castro and the condemnation of the embargo by the UN (a well deserved condemnation). I didn’t know about the island of Palau but I’ll take your word for it. I would be of the opinion that we take many of our basic freedoms for granted (freedom of expression, press, economic, movement, travel, etc,) and don’t really truly understand them until we lose them. Most Cubans understand this. Even though it may be argued that these freedoms are also restricted in a capitalist system by other forces related to the lack of individual economic resources. 

“It is naive to assume that “anyone can trade with
Cuba.” “So, the UN calls the sanctions Genocide. Seems
accurate to me.” “I simply don’t see any rational framework for blaming
virtually any of Cuba’s problems on its regime.”

The naivety is on your part. Many countries do trade with Cuba including Canada, countries in the European Union, (Spain and Holland are major trading partners) Mexico, Bahamas, Venezuela (who sell us 18% of our oil) and other close allies of the US such as Colombia. Close trade partners such as China also trade with Cuba. But as I informed you much of the trade is for cash since Cuba has not paid its foreign debt. I agree with you that the coalition of defaulters that Cuba attempted to organize was aimed against the US and the IMF but it backfired. Contrary to popular belief the US embargo is also not absolute since the US does sell agricultural products and pharmaceuticals to Cuba for cash payments. My brother-in-law does business with a client that exports rice to Cuba. So to say that the embargo is the major source of Cuba’s economic woes seem farfetched. The reality, and rationally so, is that Cuba’s economic woes are more due to draconian economic measures such as collectivization and the repressive authoritarian police state that prohibits entrepreneurship and the possibility of individual economic advancement.  There are many small countries that do trade with both Cuba and the US contrary to your claim. The embargo for the most part is ineffective and to label it genocide seems to be catering more to ideological rhetoric than to reality.

“Anyone who doesn’t do much business with the US
and has no fear of WTO sanctions.

I’ve explained above why this argument is inaccurate. The WTO’s agenda is to promote free trade not to restrict it. Among the issues that the WTO has with Cuba is the restricted internet access Cubans have. I do believe you may be referring to the IMF, not WTO, where the US is more influential.

Continued

Continuation

“That regime has pulled of miracles. Rural illiteracy down
from 65% to 0.2% and urban illiteracy too low to
measure!”

This is another one of those myths. I don’t know where you get your 65% but the last time reliable data was collected shows that Cuba had a relatively high literacy rate of 76% in the 1950’s. Cuba’s advance in literacy is comparable to other countries. The question should be: would Cuba have obtained the same result without Castro? The answer is invariable yes. The statistical data shows that if current trends from 1950 on would have continued not only would Cuba have reached the same literacy rates but it would have been better of economically and the lives of Cubans would have been vastly better than under the Revolution. I’ve posted a link with data backing up this argument:

http://www.state.gov/p/wha/ci/cu/14776.htm

“Health-care that is vastly, vastly superior
to anything an American can get access to without
being rich!”

Another mythological claim. Hospitals in the tourist centers and those used by Party elites are for the most part well stocked as you probably seen in Sicko, it’s another story for the hospital used by the majority of ordinary Cubans. Even though there are many positive concepts about Cuban healthcare such as its emphasis on preventative medicine, in practice there are many areas where it is lacking. In overall world rankings it has actually fallen from 1950’s rankings. This begs the question: based on the positive and advancing trends of the 1950’s wouldn’t Cuba’s healthcare system have surpassed the current rankings it has under Castro? I would say the answer is an invariable yes. Again refer to the link:

http://www.state.gov/p/wha/ci/cu/14776.htm

Cuba’s mostly mythical successes in providing health care do not come close to offsetting the harm caused by its political and economic repression. News reporters often give Cuba favorable views about health and education since an unfavorable review would mean you would not get another press pass to visit the island. Journalists can also be jailed and if lucky expelled for exposing unfavorable news about the government.

http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=LKCQ8CxZ2CPhznlFfntz7KGnnxztCLkrG4Zk5
hFBf1H2GdtM5rGf!-165273011!58126583?docId=5000536820

Continued

Continuation

Much is touted about Cuban doctors in foreign countries, especially the doctors for oil arrangement with Venezuela. Ask yourself: why do these doctors go without their families, especially their children? Could it be fear by the regime of defections? Of course there is always the fear of a long separation and repression against your children if you do defect. Its psychological torture. In spite of that Cuban doctors in Venezuela continue to defect.

http://english.eluniversal.com/2010/01/08/en_pol_esp_cuban-doctors-bribed_08A3266017.shtml

http://laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=350055&CategoryId=14510

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7492240

“My step-mom is Latin American and she and my father
visit Cuba annually. They said that
especially if you really have visited Cuba and still
believe that the regime is evil, you must have found
the only farm in Cuba where it’s not common knowledge
that all of their woes stem directly from the US.”

Well I have really visited Cuba at least 10 times or more over the past 20 years. I would say your stepmom is not Cuban because if she was she wouldn’t say that. But I can certainly understand her perspective going to Cuba as tourist she would be the one actually on the farm. Like other communist regimes, the Cuban government pours a disproportionate share of its resources and public investment into the capital and areas likely to be frequented by foreigners. When I go I stay with relatives in a small town away from Havana. Cubans are very hospitable and the tourist experience can be very positive and cheap. But going there as a tourist is not going to give her the perspective of ordinary Cubans, the great majority, which have to struggle daily from time they wake in the morning for their next meal. I’m sure that the resorts that she stays in are segregated from ordinary Cubans. If she stays at private residences with grandpa sleeping on the couch then I’m sure that she will be treated very well by her hosts since Cuba normally treat foreigners very well. Still there is I wouldn’t think most Cubans would not open up venting complaints about the system. Who wants to hear complains, they wouldn’t want to scare off the customers.  Even me being Cuban I have people there go out of the way to patronize me. Could be the $$$.

Enough for today.

Here are some more links with data and info about Cuba if you are interested.

HRW report:

http://www.cubanet.org/ref/dis/11020101.htm

http://www.amnestyusa.org/annualreport.php?id=ar&yr=2009&c=CUB

http://www.hrw.org/americas/cuba

http://cuba1952-1959.blogspot.com/

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/27/weekinreview/27depalma.html?_r=1

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA557_Cuban_Health_Care.html

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/12/11/cuba.human.rights.march/index.html

http://filipspagnoli.wordpress.com/2010/01/04/the-most-absurd-human-rights-
violations-24-cuba-jailing-the-unemployed-for-dangerousness/

http://ctp.iccas.miami.edu/FOCUS_Web/Issue108.htm

Night-Gaunt, lichen and idarad,

Columbia?

Like Columbia, SC? Columbia University? District of Columbia?

Why would you want to discuss or debate about a country when you don’t even know the correct spelling for it?

Don’t waste my time until you correct your spelling

Jay1953 what about Columbia? A client state of the USA for over a century, a part was cleaved off to create the protectorate of Panama for the USA. The third largest recipient of money, after Israel and Egypt and is one of the cocaine capitals of the Americas. Death squads trained and armed by the USA too. How does that square in relation to Cuba?

True Columbia has had elections but if you aren’t with the USA you die or disappear (then die) and Cuba has had a dictator since 1959. I don’t like dictators but the USA made sure Castro had a reason to stay in power when they declare war on him. [Without the Congress of course.] What say you?

If we only read the blogs he posts, as he insists, or his links to articles, we would see the light, claims Mr. ***1953. On further examination, though, these links lead to people who are only interested in any criticism of Cuba. Hardly voices of objective insight.

Let’s take Yoani Sánchez, for instance. Yoani Sánchez, often quoted by the right-wing Cato Institute and darling of the Miami exile community and the Miami Herald newspaper. Yoani Sánchez likes to present herself as a defiant voice of protest. Always, it seems, on the verge of being arrested…but not quite. Always harassed and roughed up by Cuban security forces…yet no evidence beyond her assertions that any such things have taken place. Always on the verge of having her brave voice silenced by the brutal Cuban government…yet not quite. I can’t help but notice that her blog seems to flourish without being shut down. For someone who has gained a fair share of international attention (mostly from the United States) writing about a lack of “free speech” in Cuba she seems to be doing just fine in the free speech department. 

Let’s just take a little walk through what happens to people in right-wing governments when they disagree with government. Well, they’re murdered, on a regular basis, for one. And when they protest in countries like Honduras, for instance, the military opens up on the protest with machine guns. That of, course, doesn’t interest people like Mr. ***1953 or the Cuban bloggers he cites. Everything Cuba does is a failure and that’s the only position they take. Right-wing countries can commit atrocities on a scale that, if they happened in Cuba, would unleash howls of outrage from the United States. But…no interest in those countries at all.

The only thing that will satisfy these contra-bloggers from Cuba and the Miami exile community they cater to is for Raul Castro to put a gun in his mouth, return all pre-Revolution confiscated property of the rich to them and open Cuba up to United States “free market” investment. That apparently will cure all ills in Cuba. The sun will come up, birdies will sing and every kitchen will have a sparkle and a gleam.

To Peetawonkus

I really admire your resilience in the discussion going on with ***1953, but unfortunately you are wasting your time. The brain washing is so extensive that it is impossible to have an adult discussion. The name calling is part of it. That is what they call the shock and aw effect. It is used because the arguments are just so weak that mental violence is necessary.

I just add that as a Canadian I do not consider Fidel Castro any worse than George Bush. Actually in many respects George Bush is worse except that he was the president of the US and that gives him the protection that comes with the US reputation and power. 

Last year Cuba was considered the only country in the world that lives within their means. The most sustainable country in the world. They live with what they have, whereas the US just like Canada and most of the Western world lives with what belongs to others and are rich because they have the priviledge of owning the financial means that allows them to carry enormous debts. The US with its military power decides and uses other’s resources at their own will. Is that better than being less wealthy like Cuba just because they live within their means?
Prostitution, crime, mafia, torture, inequality… is not just a Cuban trait, it is also very much alive in the US as we all know. Lack of political freedom in Cuba is not any different than the lack of political freedom in the US where now the large corporations and financial interests control Congress and the Senate. Not admitting this is to say the least irresponsible. Moral, ethical and political superiority is easily claimed but very difficult to earn.

Idarad

Yes I fully understand your concern and I believe it is a very valid one. I was a refugee once in my life and I fear social anarchy much more than I fear anything else, but that is not at all what I meant in terms of the US. I think that the a political revolution is definitely inevitable. The Us political reality is outdated, it is dangerous due to the military power and it is very destructive. The US government has caused a lot of pain around the world since the end of the second world war and that has to come to an end. Both the American and Russian military empires have created millions of victims. People have had enough. It always makes me laugh when American politicians ask ‘Why do people hate us?’ followed by the guilt free self excuse ‘Well they envy our wealth’. It has nothing to do with wealth, most of these people lost not just loved ones but their entire realities. Some will never be able to return to their homelands just because someone like Cheney was sick enough to decide that what they had in their retarded minds was true. Iraq is just the last example and it will not recover in our life time. George Bush will be considered a war criminal when the right time comes. I for one really hope so.

Like many right-wingers, people like ***1953 claim they are not. Oh, no, they are reasonable moderates or “clean leftists” (whatever that’s supposed to mean) who like the Ed Show and who were opposed to the Iraqi war. Having been finally outed, Mr. ***1953 takes off the mask and shows us the right-wing propagandist lurking beneath.

Mr. ***1953 informs us he was born in Cuba. So of course he grew up in the viciously anti-Castro exile community. The Cuban exile community was originally formed from the rich who had their property confiscated after the Revolution or those in the military and security forces who brutalized most of the population to keep them in line. But he tries to convince us that doesn’t shape his viewpoints in the least. And anyone who disagrees with him and presents contradictory evidence to his claims is called “stupid”, a “moron”, “uninformed”, a “useful idiot”, etc. When argument and his fake “proof” fails to convince, then insult and personal attack step into the breach.

“Most Cubans survive by bartering stolen goods or food they grow in their back yard or barter sex to tourists.” This is from Mr. ***1953. That’s just plain a lie. As to the shortages he describes, yes, there are shortages. The difference is, these are people who blame the Cuban government instead of the US imposed embargo—an embargo most of the world feels is unjust and cruel and has been largely condemned by everyone except the usual countries that vote with the United States on everything, no matter how ridiculous.

Jay1953, some valid points, many that I just can’t
square with the facts as I understand them.

I hope it’s common knowledge that the US CIA
constantly attempted to destroy the Cuban government
and assassinate Castro. The plans were declassified
and the BBC ran a detailed story on 1st July, 2007,
pointing out that every dirty trick was employed and
that, as usual, the CIA planned to use the mafia.

It is naive to assume that “anyone can trade with
Cuba. Anyone who doesn’t do much business with the US
and has no fear of WTO sanctions. (So, like a dozen
small countries? Or maybe fewer?) Read this:

“From a total of 192 UN member states, who are the
two lone countries that voted with the US in favour
of its economic, commercial and financial blockade
against Cuba at the UN’s 64th General Assembly (UNGA)
Meeting on 28 October 2009?”

“A journalist asked US State Department Spokesperson
Ian Kelly this rather simple question at a press
conference following the UNGA’s record vote where,
for the 18th year in a row, 187 countries condemned
the US blockade.”

“While Kelly fumbled for an answer, the journalist
suggested it was possibly Micronesia and Israel.
Though not quite correct, the journalist’s guess was
as good as any. As always, it was Israel—the US’s
closest ally in the Middle East—that favoured the
blockade. The other loyal US ally wasn’t Micronesia,
which abstained from voting this year, but the tiny
island of Palau. A little-known territory of some 281
square miles in the Pacific Ocean, and a US colony
for nearly 50 years, Palau voted with the US and
Israel against the majority of the world’s nations.”

So, the UN calls the sanctions Genocide. Seems
accurate to me.

I simply don’t see any rational framework for blaming
virtually any of Cuba’s problems on its regime. That
regime has pulled of miracles. Rural illiteracy down
from 65% to 0.2% and urban illiteracy too low to
measure! Health-care that is vastly, vastly superior
to anything an American can get access to without
being rich!

Jay1953, I agree with some of your peripheral points,
but in the main it appears that the Cuban leadership
has navigated a massive, genocidal sh*t-storm of US
dirty tricks and come out smelling like roses.
Genocide is not my word, it is the UN finding, 18
YEARS IN A ROW! AS USUAL ONLY THE US AND ISRAEL voted
against the condemning resolution. Oh, and the tiny
island of Palau this year standing in for Micronesia!
The analogy of David and Goliath stands. (Hint: we
are the big hairy one with our face in the mud.)

My step-mom is Latin American and she and my father
visit Cuba annually. I had a conversation with them
about these issues this evening. They said that
especially if you really have visited Cuba and still
believe that the regime is evil, you must have found
the only farm in Cuba where it`s not common knowledge
that all of their woes stem directly from the US.

jay1953, January 8 at 1:16 am

But how can you say the Cuba’s trying to ditch their foreign debt was not also to get back at the US, which had in large part created that debt? If some guy actually caused a person to have to take out a loan from him, would any sane person really feel obligated to pay it back?. I’d be giving the Italian hand salute.

If the other Latin American countries caved in to American pressure to build dams
or air bases, guess what’s going to happen; the U.S. is going to play nice guy and
relieve the debt, but that was the US plan all along. So what’s your point?

I still say that if it weren’t for Chicken Little ideologs like John Foster Dulles, we
would have been enjoying good relations with Cuba decades ago.

Say what you want about Castro, but if he was in any way considered to be a monster, it was because the U.S. was the Dr. Frankenstein.

jay1953, January 8 at 1:16 am

But how can you say the Cuba’s trying to ditch their foreign debt was not also to get back at the US, which had in large part created that debt? If some guy actually caused a person to have to take out a loan from him, would any sane person really feel obligated to pay it back?. I’d be giving the Italian hand salute.

If the other Latin American countries caved in to American pressure to build dams
or air bases, guess what’s going to happen; the U.S. is going to play nice guy and
relieve the debt, but that was the US plan all along. So what’s your point?

I still say that if it weren’t for Chicken Little ideologs like John Foster Dulles, we
would have been enjoying good relations with Cuba decades ago.

jay1953
I believe that US citizens, the ones on the mainland and not the ones that emigrated to Columbia or elsewhere, should have control of their economy and their politics under a fully socio-democratic system with no dictators having a monopoly on power.

lichen

There you go again. Trying to start a dialogue about another country you know nothing about.

Seems like the troll is you.

That’s it for tonight, I’m going to watch the Ed Show, my favorite, on MSNBC that I TIVO’d

Go watch O’Reilly or Hannity see if you can pick up some pointers on how to senselessly argue.

lichen

There you go again. Trying to start a dialogue about another country you know nothing about.

Seems like the troll is you.

DieDaily

“but aren’t most of the the problems you are talking about the result of foreign-imposed embargoes that are unjust?”

As far as I know the only country that doesn’t trade with Cuba is the US and maybe Israel. The economic crises, ” or periodo especial” is due more to the failure of the Castro economic system and Castro’s hold on the people in just about every facet of Cuban life. Cuba is free to trade with all other countries. All other countries don’t trade with Cuba because Cuba can’t pay its foreign debt. Trade and investment with Cuba is risky. Investments have nefarious conditions and there is always the ghost of the confiscations of foreign owned businesses and properties at the beginning of the dictatorship. Foreign investments can be a double edged sword though as we have seen in much of the 3rd world. 

Another reason for the failed Cuban economy is that Cuba led a movement some years ago for Latin American countries to default on their foreign debt. All other countries resolved their foreign debts through renegotiation which forgave much, if not all, of the interest payments that was crushing the economies of those countries. Cuba was the only holdout.

I believe that Cubans, the ones on the island and not the ones that immigrated to the US or elsewhere, should have control of their economy and their politics under a fully socio-democratic system with no dictators having a monopoly on power.

As to the embargo or what Castro calls the blockade. I believe the embargo is wrong and it has only prolonged Castros hold on power. I believe the US should unilaterally and unconditionally lift the embargo including taking down all trade and travel restrictions. If this would have been done years ago economic and individual freedoms would have eventually followed which would have been detrimental to the Castro regime. The embargo is an instrument that Castro cultivates, if I can use that word, to stay in power and the US plays right into his hands. The last time that the US tried to make positive apertures to the Castro regime was under Carter and Castro burned him with the Mariel boatlift. Castro is probably the most astute politician that I have known, but that astuteness he uses to his own personal benefit not to that of the people. Sounds like our politicians here in the US doesn’t it?

“I mean, when USSR pulled out it was a miracle of cooperative effort that half the country didn’t starve, was it not?”

Yes I agree. It is an ongoing miracle and a testament to the resilience of the Cuban people no thanks to the government. If it was because of the government there would be famine on the island. The period starting at the end of the massive Soviet subsidies that propped up the Castro dictatorship is called the “el periodo especial” or special period when the Castro government announced that there would be shortages for an indefinite time. El Periodo especial is now almost in its 20th year. The government meets its budget and finances itself through tourism, a modest export industry and subsidies from Venezuela.

“You seem to have a real, first-hand credible point of view, so please, I mean it when I say I actually want this explained. To me, it seems like they are being constantly punished from without, and no shortages, etc. have much of anything to do with the regime”.

But it does. Even if the embargo were to persist the main obstacle is the basic economic freedoms that we take for granted in western countries. I believe in a social-capitalist system similar to the one described by the Australian PM. Not only do I believe that such system would work in Cuba but also in the US. My belief is that capitalism and socialism are really interdependent. You can read about it at the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_capitalism
“Where am I going wrong with that logic, if I am
wrong? Are there huge, squandered reserves there?”

I hope that I gave you a good answer.

Sol -
Thanks for the post.  I do not fear the change I think is inevitable.  However, I am concerned with the violent nature of the american population, and when the empire falls, and fall it will, the chances of anarchy are greater than those of creative resolution and revolution.  Truly these are unique times, outstanding opportunities for positive change - though equal opportunity for tragedy and bloodshed. Unfortunately we (the US) destroyed many attempts by other peoples throughout the world to make systemic change in self government. We (the US) saw those examples as threats to our way of life.

Very unfortunate indeed.  For what we have left I fear is at best a ‘crap shoot’

Yes, you are a right winger; you prefer the Columbian regime over the Cuban one.  And you don’t refute anything I say, you simply give your own opinions and defenses and link to state department memos; we all have our own articles backing up what we say; and many people that truly have leftist political views have traveled all over the world, so just because many on the far-right have the money to travel doesn’t mean their political opinions are more valid. Many rich, deluded right wing americans use that defense.  You aren’t interested in what I have to say either, but you are actively trolling this thread; get a life, you won’t get Cuba back.

lichen

Not a right winger. I’m a leftist but a clean one.

Your tendency to pigeonhole just shows you how ignorant you are.

And of course you don’t want to read my posts, truth hurts. You have no argument on Cuba that I can’t refute. It’ll turn that little false leftist world you created for yourself upside-down. Then you’ll really be more confused than what you already are. Leftists like you are an embarrassment to the rest of us decent left wing Progressives.

Good riddance. Hope you rot.

And yes, though right wing scum will be unlikely to realize this, meat is one of the primary greenhouse gas emitters and is extremely wasteful of resources, unhealthy, and expensive.  So it is practical, especially given the public health system, that people wouldn’t be given animal flesh to feast on daily like the oligarchs of the Batista era probably did.

Peetawonkus, excellent points! 

Jay, since you have confirmed what I’ve said, that you are yourself a right wing cuban exile, I’m not interested in your volumous propaganda.  And yes, it is a fact that Jose Padilla is down there in Miami as part of the right wing Batista-reminiscing, Cuba hating exile movement.  Saying he isn’t descended from Cuba isn’t the point.  I’m very glad that Cuba provides all of it’s citizens with food, education, housing, and better healthcare than the US does. I’m glad that they switched to small-scale, organic farming that conserves the soil much better—I can see that clearly right wing exiles like you want to not only take away the economic rights of the people their, but introduce chemicalized agriculture—probably to export bananas while real Cubans die in the streets of starvation, just like in Columbia.  Oh well to you.

jay1953…but aren’t most of the the problems you are
talking about the result of foreign-imposed embargoes
that are unjust? I’m asking, not telling…what do
they have to do with the regime? I mean, when USSR
pulled out it was a miracle of cooperative effort
that half the country didn’t starve, was it not? You
seem to have a real, first-hand credible point of
view, so please, I mean it when I say I actually want
this explained. To me, it seems like they are being
constantly punished from without, and no shortages,
etc. have much of anything to do with the regime.
Where am I going wrong with that logic, if I am
wrong? Are there huge, squandered reserves there?

Yoani Sánchez blog. She lives there. I suggest you guys read it, get informed before you start talking out of asses.

http://desdecuba.com/generationy/

Peetawonkus and lichen

Holy jeepers!

Dude you guys need to get out of the US and stop believing all the crap you read. See and experience the world for yourself. You guys sound like the left wing Fox News. I can see now that the left is as full white foamed mouth wackos and ignoramuses as the right wing.

There is no sensibility with you guys only ideology and prejudices.

Have you guys been to Argentina?

Have you been to Colombia?

Have you been to Cuba?

I can tell you neither one of you haven’t.

lichen

On top of ignorant cynical to boot. On Jose Padilla you are not being ignorant, you are just being stupid. I already posted info refuting your stupid argument. He’s not a Cuban even though you wish him to be.

And

Yes I was born I Cuba.

Came at a young age but not young enough not to remember.

And I guess to you I would be traitor like every immigrant to America including the Pilgrims and all of your ancestors.

The traitor label coming from the likes of a moron who thinks like you is a badge of honor, thank you.

Lived through the early days of the Revolution.

Don’t live in Miami, sorry. Even though you wished I did.

Don’t agree with the embargo nor Miami politics.

And I’m not rich nor drink martinis. I prefer water and an occasional beer.

I don’t like Castro like you do. A dictator is a dictator no matter what ideological scheme, fascism or communism, he devises to stay in power.

I go every 2 or 3 years to Cuba.

Don’t stay in tourist hotels.

I stay with family in the in a little town in countryside which gives me more of an insight into the revolution that you’ll ever have.

Been denied access to dollar stores because my passport says born in Cuba even though I’m a US citizen.

My relatives in Cuba can not go into the dollar store even if they have dollars.

I’ve seen the butcher shops with no meat, only eggs if they are lucky.

There is an overabundance of flies everywhere and they get on the food you’re about to eat.

I’ve seen their ration card and what food they can get if there is any, many times there is none. If there is food people are in line for hours to get say a quarter of a chicken per person. If there is 3 in your family you’ll get a chicken with a leg cut off.

Meat is scarce in limited to about 4 ounces per person per month but most of the time you’ll get 1 egg per person instead. Again if there are eggs available.

I’ve seen mostly empty store shelves in the grocery store.

Most of the housing you brag about was built before the Revolution, much of it in decay which hasn’t been painted for decades because there is no paint.

Most of the people steal from the government enterprises to barter and survive.

Most people feed themselves on food they buy from the blackmarket. You get caught they confiscate it and jail you. If you’re lucky you’ll get away with a bribe or at worst a beating.

The CDR can enter your home and see what you have and confiscate food not on your ration card. They’ll check your icebox, working refrigerators are scarce and so is ice.

Most Cubans survive by bartering stolen goods or food they grow in their back yard or barter sex to tourists.

Most of the food is traded on the black market, it doesn’t come from the under-supplied government stores.

Hospitals are not the show hospitals you see in government propaganda films mainly catering to tourists and the elite communist Party members and of course Michael Moore.

Hospitals for the average Cuban are always short of syringes, anesthetic, medicines and sanitary conditions. You have to bring your own pillows and even bedsheets. You have to have someone bring you meals from home because the hospital doesn’t feed you. So much for the glorious Cuban health system.

The land is depleted in many areas from over-harvesting and the lack of crop rotation.

Erosion is a problem in many areas. Sugar cane production is down because of this depletion. The sugar cane plant is very small compared to the ones I remember from pre-revolutionary days.

I have first cousins with very high positions in Cuba and if they repeated outloud what they say to me they would be in jail.

I have a cousin who is a member of one of the state security cells and what he says borders on sedition.
And they live there.

Oh I could go on but then an ignoramus like you, useful idiots, would give me his Orwellian opinion. Bad is good. War is peace.

I know more about Cuba than you ever will.

If a lefty government so much as stumbles and stubs a toe, these right-wing bleeding hearts come out of the woodwork to condemn it with shock and awe. Of course, let a right-wing government engage in systematic State sponsored terror and murder and these same people are curiously silent. For instance, how Argentinian School of the Americas graduates, in some case taught by Cuban exile ex-Guardsmen, were instructed in how to rape (or “utilize”, as they termed it) female “leftists” before throwing them alive out of helicopters over the ocean. Again, in Argentina, the children of murdered “leftists” were sold in adoption rings or even child prostitution rings. Right-wing Honduras, with military government Thailand, truly is one of the child prostitution centers of the world. Zelaya in Honduras was trying to change that, among other things, but the old same coalition of businessmen and the military decided reform on behalf of the people was the wrong kind of reform so…he had to go. And Thailand had a military coup so it’s back to business as usual there. But, of course, those areas of the world seem to hold no interests for these “investigative journalists” so eagerly quoted. Must be nice to believe everything you read, especially when you’re pre-disposed to believe it. Journalists with an agenda often make things up or deeply exaggerate for propaganda purposes, especially when they know they won’t be contested on it by mainstream media or the State Department. Interestingly, most of the prostitution “investigation” on Cuba comes from American sources. The odds are good there are more prostitutes (of all ages) in a square mile of Los Angeles or Washington D.C. than all of Cuba. But the rich and powerful are their clients and so these highly principled reporters suddenly lose all interest in “investigating” these exploitations and abuses of women and children in their own backyards. Once again, an outrage selectively applied.

The Columbian government sponsors death squads that go around murdering anyone who might be ‘leftish,’ and lets the majority of it’s people live in crippling poverty, but they are propped up without a shred of conscience.  Cuba, on the other hand, is a peaceful, egalitarian society; US foreign policy has no morals.

jay1953, thanks for sharing “trail of tears” with us about these poor (but very rich, politically influential, and powerful—including Jose Padilla, who is among and one of them) right wing Miami exiles.  It sounds like you are one of them and thus have nothing but to lash out against “the haters” while taking no responsibility for the murder your movement commits. 

Of course the US state department is spreading trash and lies about Cuba online—they still want to destabilize, kill, and overthrow the Cuban government so that they can take away the healthcare, housing, food, education, and environmental standards that Cubans enjoy.  They will fail, thankfully.

Peetawonkus

None of the links I posted are from your right-wing Cuban mafia in Miami, as you would probably want to call them. I made sure of that. Read them for Chrissakes if you really have an open mind. Intransigence and narrow mindedness makes you a fanatic like your friends in Miami.

It is not meant to prove anything. Read them and draw your own conclusions. I for my part keep an open mind you need to do the same.

Some people here (and I won’t name names) keep throwing up these links that are supposed to “prove” something. These links mostly originate from right-wing Miami Cubans whose sole function in writing is to discredit Cuba and the Cuban revolution. These would be the same Miami Cubans who light cigars for ex-Contras and Somocistas and otherwise cuddle up to torturers and rapists who have taken refuge in “Little Havana”. These are the same people who act outraged at acts of prostitution in Cuba. But of course they have no objections to any of this in any right wing Latin American nation. Does anybody really believe that Cuba is some child prostitution capital of the world? Honestly?

Come on people take off your ideological blinders and stop defending a corrupt regime that is indefensible. The evidence to back me up is only a click or a Google search away. Do I have to do all the research for a horde of morons?

READ,READ,READ,READ. Come out of that cloud of ignorance you all live in.

Geez, and I though right-wing wackos were fruitcakes. The lefties here leave nothing for those on right envy.

200,000/year single males travel to Cuba from Spain alone. What about Italy, Canada, Germany, Argentina, Mexico, etc. etc, etc.?
http://network.nshp.org/profiles/blogs/youth-prostitution-feeding

Dept. of State 2004 Report
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41756.htm

Dept. of State 2008 Report, if you read this report we can see that prostitution of minors and the abuse of women is a ongoing problem.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2008/wha/119155.htm

Reports from the UK
http://www.ecpat.org.uk/downloads/Cuba05.pdf
http://www.childtrafficking.com/Docs/o_connell_1996__child_prost2.pdf

Website promoting prostitution.
http://www.amorsi.com/Latin-Girls-Cuba.asp

Wow!

Come on people take off your ideological blinders and stop defending a corrupt regime that is indefensible. The evidence to back me up is only a click or a Google search away. Do I have to do all the research for a horde of morons?

READ,READ,READ,READ. Come out of that cloud of ignorance you all live in.

Geez, and I though right-wing wackos were fruitcakes. The lefties here leave nothing for those on right envy.

200,000/year single males travel to Cuba from Spain alone. What about Italy, Canada, Germany, Argentina, Mexico, etc. etc, etc.?

http://network.nshp.org/profiles/blogs/youth-prostitution-feeding

Dept. of State 2004 Report

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41756.htm

Dept. of State 2008 Report, if you read this report we can see that prostitution of minors and the abuse of women is a ongoing problem.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2008/wha/119155.htm

Reports from the UK

http://www.ecpat.org.uk/downloads/Cuba05.pdf

http://www.childtrafficking.com/Docs/o_connell_1996__child_prost2.pdf

Website promoting prostitution.
http://www.amorsi.com/Latin-Girls-Cuba.asp

Peetawonkus

You’re acting like a moron, how do you know if I condemn right wing dictatorships or not? I condemn all dictatorships.

Just because I don’t agree with you on Cuba you label me as a righty? Do you pigeonhole everyone that way? you’re a prejudicial idiot with no bearings.

I was against Bush’s war in Iraq before it even started. Were you?

jay1953
Oh, please. So if some Revolution isn’t perfect it’s to be judged a failure and thrown back to the sharks? Yeah, right, Cuba is a big threat to the United States. And I’m sure that “journalism” you love to quote wasn’t ginned up to find some tiny little thing to bitch about. People like you are always pissing and whining about some little something in Cuba. But when it comes to the right-wing dictatorships, the ones the USA avidly supports, well, you just can’t seem to find your outrage. Cuba throws a couple dissenters in jails and you wring your hands and squeeze out some crocodile tears. But let Honduras or Nicaragua under Somoza, or El Salvador or Guatemala, Chile, Argentina, on and on, butcher people by the tens of thousands and not a peep out of you. I’ll bet when Bush was lying his way into Iraq and 5000 Americans died on the back of that lie you were quiet as a little mouse. Oh, but now you’re a big spokesman for human rights? Gimme a break. F*ckin’ hypocrite.

zeroinfinity

Another one of Castro’s useful idiots.

The only traitors to the Revolution is Castro and his goons.

Peetawonkus

You’re right, if we are going to judge the USA by your standards of whorehouses then I guess the USA is a bigger whorehouse tha Cuba ever was or will be.

As for Cuba having very little prostitutions the facts contradict you.

http://network.nshp.org/profiles/blogs/youth-prostitution-feeding

Thong Girl and Idarad

Yes I truly believe that the US will not change through democratic means because there aren’t any. We even witnessed the unthinkable in a democratic nation as the rigging of votes in Florida with George Bush. What I find more concerning is that despite the news and reports about it, nothing was done. The same is now happening with the Obama administration that seems to love rethoric but nothing seems to be happening in real terms against people that openly stole and gambled with everyone’s money. I think that a revolution is inevitable whether they have the control or not. I have lived through a revolution and I know for a fact how fast they develop once the tipping point is reached. I know this point is close in the US just by watching absurd behaviours of politicians, so called gurus….etc. I am not in the US so for me it is way easier to observe the changes and they are bizarre to non Americans.

jay1953
Bullshit. What little prostitution is on the streets in Cuba is a hell of a lot different than your whole country being run like one—like it used to be. And before you get on your high horse about the “glorious revolution” you better take a hard look around at the USA. Whores, drugs, guns run amok, corrupt politicians who spit on the will of the People and corporations that wipe their asses on the Constitution and the words of Abe Lincoln. Some “glorious revolution” the USA made. People who live in glass houses, etc….

Peetawonkus

Cuba is even more of a whorehouse today tahn it ever was. It’s a major sex tourist destination where young girls and boys sell their bodies for a plate of rice and beans. Another achievement of Castro’s glorious Revolution.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/211/44367.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/26/international/americas/26havana.html?pagewanted=print&position;=

http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_fatah/20040212.html

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuba/cuba-prostitution-11-03.htm

lichen

Again you have your facts wrong. Jose Padia? or do you mean Jose Padilla? Get a hold of yourself man, hating Cuban exiles/immigrants is clouding your judgement. Jose Padilla (alias Abdullah al-Muhajir or Muhajir Abdullaha) U.S. citizen convicted of lending support to the al Qaeda terrorist organization. I don’t know what his decendancy is but I do know it’s not Cuban. The person you are confused with, confusion appears to be one of your traits, is Luis Posasa Carriles the Cuban- Venezuelan terrorist who placed a bomb on a Caracas to Havana bound Cubana de Aviacion airliner killing 73 people. So he wasn’t one of your hated Miami-Cubans, sorry. Now the US did give this known terrorist asylum and his last known location was Miami. Cuba has asked for his extradition, the US has refused. So does the US have a double standard? Yes. Does the US harbour a known terrorist? YES,YES,YES!

As for your CIA comment I doubt you are right, like I said that is my personal opinion. I am not going to try to corroborate it but the indications are that Castro would not have gotten to power in a 1959 setting in Latin America. And there is opinion of others, other than mine, that were closer to the action than you were.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=98921086

As to the US withdrawal of support for Batista the you deny you can read about it at the following link or Google it yourself. Not only did the US implement an arms embargo against Batista but the US pulled their ambassador. So if that doesn’t demonstrate US support for Castro I don’t what else will? US military intervention a la 1898?

http://www.jessehelmscenter.org/documents/Atyrantsliberation-fullarticle.pdf

You’ve made it obvious that your opinion is blinded for the hate you have for the Miami-Cuban community and the obvious misguided admiration for sociopathic dictator, so that disqualifies from manifesting an objective opinion on the matter.

As a final thought I don’t care what you don’t care about, so that makes us even. There is a lot of people who stereotype and hate like you who are the real scumbags and apparently peudo-racists or just plain racist. Is your hate for all Miami Cubans? or you hate the first ones that got out of Cuba just after the fall of Batista? do you hate the Pedro Pan kids of 1960-1962? is that hate extended to the ones who came through the Camarioca boat-lift in 1965? what about the ones who came through the Mariel boat-lift of 1980, do you hate them too? or you just hate the 10000 who took refuge in the Peruvian embassy that sparked Mariel?  do you hate the ones who came in the Rafter crises of 1995? is it also a hate for all the ones who came on rafts? or maybe you just hate all the ones who asked for asylum? or does your hate also extend to all the ones in Cuba thinking about coming to Miami? do you hate them before they come or after they get to Miami? or perhaps you also hate the ones who come in across the Mexican border? or maybe all of their children and grandchildren also desrve your hate? or is you hate just a blanket hate for all Cubans and their descendants in Miami? where does your hate stop when all of them are dead? So according to you they are all scumbagas? Which is it? Just look in the mirror if you want to find a scumbag.

Cuba before Castro was a Mafia whorehouse and casino and the military was their private security cops. Apparently this is the grand plan of Capitalism at it finest: take your daughters for whores and your sons for the military to make sure crap-shoot capitalism can keep rolling the bones. Capitalism, aka “The State Religion of the USA”, can carry a grudge forever, especially once denied its whorehouses and plantations. Contrary to the writer’s assertion,”...since when is the United States afraid of exposure to a competing ideology?” Well, since…forever, actually. With America’s bankrupt economy, wars financed on credit to China and failed health care system, the best America can manage is to continue to harass a country whose leading export is doctors?

Most of the comments are right on the point. But, why put up with it?

Assuming at least some of the True Diggers manage to put up with all the airline bs and take a vacation once in awhile, I’d suggest going somewhere exciting! Yes, travel to Cuba is illegal, but so is smoking dope. Buy or borrow a copy of the Lonely Planet’s CUBA, and plan a trip. You can go fairly cheap if you stay in the Casa Particulars and eat at the local eats joints. Transportation in Cuba is affordable and easy to deal with. I was 70 when I went, so it doesn’t take a lot of physical effort. And I traveled alone, 2 people could do it much more easily.

You have to be careful about the travel itself - Right now, Mexico is not reporting US travelers to Cuba, but that could change with the Plan Merida in effect. Canada is out btw. Any European or Latin American country would work, depending on the terrorism agreements in place. Since underwear is no longer sacrosanct, it will only be more difficult the longer you wait. Who knows what evil trick will be next?

My point is that allowing these Fascist Demagogues to dictate my life only ensures their power over me. Go ahead, live dangerously - pretend you really are a citizen of the Free World!

When Katrina hit New Orleans, Cuba was one of the first countries to offer aid. Cuba offered to send 1586 doctors instantly, with their own supplies and transportation and everything. We weren’t even able to send a bottle of water in a pickup truck for the better part of a week, they were ready to go in a day! The only service that we ourselves delivered quickly was that of several thousand Blackwater (Xe) mercs sent to make sure none of the distressed had any dangerous guns with which they might hurt themselves.

Cuba shows the world a very dangerous model:

1. They are more committed that we. They prove that you can stand up to a massive Imperial Empire even without superpower backing.

2. They prove that you can educate your entire population, eliminate illiteracy, and deliver world-leading health care on a tiny, shoe-string budget. 

3. They have the highest literacy rate in the world at 99.8% (according the UN). At first glance it appears that the US has a 99% rate (43rd in the world) but the report has a footnote (developed countries that do not report are assumed to be at 99%!!!!!!!) A little domestic digging shows that the US in fact as a literacy rate nationwide of 85.4% which puts us now with 2nd world countries like Brazil, Libya and Iran; in major areas like Bronx and Queens counties which are over 40% illiterate, we’re in 3rd world status even worse than India. http://nces.ed.gov/naal/kf_demographics.asp)

Of course we have to hate Cuba! They are a David to our Goliath. And we’re flat our face. Anyone who loves America might want to think about how they did it, and how we might catch up!

Well, we do know that without the US state department’s backing, the coup wouldn’t have lasted a month.  Perhaps Clinton’s pre-coup words of disapproval for Zelaya’s actions emboldened those right wing military/business elements with the knowledge that they had the consent of their keepers to do what they would. 

It really is such an infuriating act of injustice—all the effort and demonstrations by the Honduran people, the solidarity of Latin America against the coup, all the determination and compromise of Zelaya signing that sham accord, yet with the help of some mainstream media spin and a few curt words from the state department, lies, economic slavery, and murder won again.

Thong-girl - would you mind expanding your thought on the coup to mollify hiilarity.  I am of the opinion that the coup was the sequel to Arbenz vs. United fruit, different players same script

Lichen, do you think Honduras was overthrown to mollify the ugliness of Hillary? I suspect it may be about “Bugsplat.”

JAY1953’s laughable sense of “facts” aside, it is clear the disgusting, typical US arrogance he displays in trying to excuse people like Jose Padia who murdered plane-fulls of civilians in order to terrify the Cuban government, and try, most of all, to get it to stop providing healthcare, education, and food to it’s people. The Miami exiles are scumbags, and I don’t care about “what they’ve been through”—what, they were lying by their pools drinking martini’s when some comrades came in and announced that their mansion was going to become a health center?  Boohoo. 

And yes, actually, people did rise to power without the support of the CIA in Latin America—that is why the assassination and coup plots came in, against Allende, and also Castro (and Zelaya, Chavez in modern times.)  The coup against Honduras was extremely illegal, unconstitutional, and brutal; the coup government, emboldened by their false election, is now sending out death squads to to murder those among the resistance.  And all because Zelaya did some nice things for poor people and rankled the local sweatshop owners.

As for Castro why do you think he picked as an ally a country thousands of miles away? If it had been reversed and Cuba was 90 miles off the coast of Russia you can bet he would have been a Western Capitalist all the way & buddy to US presidents for the same length of time. [You may have noticed that the USA supports dictatorships, including installing them, all over the world for many years

I wonder, night-gaunt if you are aware that Castro expected to be an ally of the USA after the revolution in Cuba? It was only after the US rebuffed his overtures, abandoned the US owned factories ( which Castro then turned into schools by the by)that Castro was forced into the arms of the USSR…

If the Cuban state fosters terrorism why are Cuban-Americans allowed to travel and send money to Cuba? Is this not a burden on the already overburdened CIA? Are Cuban-Americans aiding and abetting an enemy?

Am I living in a real state or in cuckoo land?

idarad

“History supports those who write it - not the facts.”

This is so true.

“Even in your argument you agree that Cuba was sold out by Eisenhower and Kennedy because they did not support US hegemony.”

No I don’t agree with that. There was only one person that sold out Cuba and the Revolution and that person was Castro.

As for Honduras the Honduran Constitution states the following:

Article 239 — No citizen that has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President. Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years.

Article 42: The legal rights of any citizen is lost: 5) If the citizen incites, promotes, or supports the continuance or the re-election of the President of the Republic.

Article 272: The Armed Forces of Honduras are ... established to defend the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the Republic, keep the peace, public order and the rule of the Constitution, the principles of free suffrage and alternation in the presidency of the Republic.

Article 237: “The presidential term is four years… .” There is no provision for self succession.

Article 373: “The reform of the Constitution can be decreed by the National Congress, in ordinary session, by a vote of two thirds the totality of its members, and must specify the article or articles that are to be reformed, and must be ratified by an equal number of votes in the subsequent ordinary legislature.

Article 374: “It is not possible to reform, in any case, the preceding article, the present article, the constitutional articles referring to the form of government, to the national territory, to the presidential period, the prohibition to serve again as President of the Republic, the citizen who has performed under any title in consequence of which she/he cannot be President of the Republic in the subsequent period.”

So it seems that what Zelaya initiated a constitutional crisis when he sought re-election. The Honduran Army acted under the directives of the country’s Sepreme Court as outlined in the Constitution. I don’t see how the US gets blamed on this one. It seems to be more of an internal Honduran problem and all countries should keep out of it and let the Hondurans sort it out.

Commune115

First of all I didn’t say with any degree of affirmation that CIA cooperation with Castro could be corroborated. Those are my suspicions since the CIA is not going to admit to that specially after the way things went down. So of course there are going to be no documents from the CIA. If you have DOS docs post them. Reason being that no one dictator was going to defeat a US backed government in 1959. So your version doesn’t hold water. The DOS is not the CIA. So you can subscribe to the post revolutionary babble and fantasies I don’t because like I said I was there and have been there since.

Second, if the US backed Batista as you allege then answer why there was a US arms embargo against the Batista regime? That is a fact.

Third, I’ve read some books sympathetic and not sympathetic to Castro and the one thing I noticed was the distortion and the glossing over of the facts from those who were sympathetic to the dictatorship. For example I just finished reading “Fidel Castro by Ignacio Ramonet” and the distortions and Castros revisionist history, glossing over and in some cases outright lies immediately would take me all day or more to refute. I could go into all the details but there is not enough room to post all of it here. It would take me days. As far as Che, also known as Chancho, I recommend you check out Humberto Fontova’s book which approximates the truth more than all the books you mention. None of your authors were there. Just filter out some of Fontovas right wing grudges that have to do more with US political views. The facts he remembers the events as I remember them. You see he was there too. Just like me. There is also documentaries on YOU Tube and Google Video that you can check out, in Spanish, from eyewitnesses, like me, who were actually there during those times. You can read Armando Valladares’ book “Against all Hope”. Read “Unvanquished by Enrique Encinosa”. Read “La Hora Final De Castro: La Historia Secreta Detras De La Inminente Caida Del Comunismo En Cuba by Andres Oppenheimer”. Get a different perspective.

Fourth, I do find it strange that once the Batista was gone Castro didn’t move in to consolidate Havana and instead had a victory parade as you put it. Militarily speaking it seems laughable. Wasn’t this the hard fought war that Catroist propaganda paints? 

Fifth, you ask, “several thousands murdered by Castro?” Yes there was several thousand murdered. Do you know anybody who lost a loved one in front of a revolutionary firing squad? I do.  Its no typical Miami fantasising friend. During the early days of the revolution you could go to the Malecon and across the bay on just about any day at any time and if you listened you could hear the retort of firing squads doing their dirty work at the Cabana. How do I know? Because I was there and heard it.

Fifth, as far as the US doing an expose of the murders well there were plenty of US news sources exposing the gross violations of human rights. Guevara even admitted such when he spoke at the UN. As for Stalin atrocities they were mostly exposed by Khrushchev when he took power in the early ‘50s after Stalin was dead. Before that they were exposed by those fanatical wide eyed right wing Russians who defected to the West. Similar to those wild eyed right wing Cubans in Miami. Of course just as Castro Stalin never admitted to it. Stalin was much worse and pathological than Castro. As for Mao’s atrocities has the Chinese government ever officially admitted said atrocities while Mao was in power? Get real friend you are looking at things in the perspective of the present not of the perspective of the time.

Sixth, yes there were rumours of communist affiliations among Castro’s ranks. Eisenhower ignored them and DOS officials could have been warning him just like they warned Truman of the long term repercussions for support of a Jewish State in Palestine. Like Eisenhower, Truman ignored the warnings. We see the result today.

JAY1953
History supports those who write it - not the facts.

Even in your argument you agree that Cuba was sold out by Eisenhower and Kennedy because they did not support US hegemony. Case made!  Has it changed—- no look at Honduras today, another attempt by the US to re-establish its stranglehold on the “Americas:

Sol, January 5 at 5:02 pm #

“The US is not only a fallen Empire just like all the other ones before but is also becoming a backwards nation.”

No what we are seeing is the falling of a republic as it transmutes into an empire. We are in a kluge state but it can’t last much longer. One or both will fall and either we shall regain our republic, lose it to a new empire or they shall both fall into ruin and the USA will become like Argentina or Europe before WWI. Where you need a gun to go to the grocery store. Fractionalized into various states and hamlets &

Also what isn’t being reported by most (MSNBC) is that one or two members of Blackwater/Xe were also killed with the CIA. They are still with our clandestine services—-change you can believe in? Only of the faces not the core values.

As for Castro why do you think he picked as an ally a country thousands of miles away? If it had been reversed and Cuba was 90 miles off the coast of Russia you can bet he would have been a Western Capitalist all the way & buddy to US presidents for the same length of time. [You may have noticed that the USA supports dictatorships, including installing them, all over the world for many years.]

jay1953,pretty funny that you criticize the “distorting of history” when you appear to be quite skillfull at it yourself. The idea that the CIA collaborated with Castro is laughable, why? Well, we have the original State Department documents and transcripts of what the CIA and Eisenhower’s top advisors knew and thought about the Cuban Revolution before and after it took place. The US backed Batista all the way up until he fled, they didn’t even think Castro would win, read “Legacy Of Ashes: The History Of The CIA” by Tim Weiner. An arms embargo on Batista? If the US dropped its support for the man, why was he valued a client all the way up until the Revolution? Read “Havana Nocturne” by TJ English. So in your opinion there was no battle of Santa Clara? So all that urban combat was just for show? I recommend you check out “Guevara, Also Known As Che” by Paco Ignacio Taibo II and “Cuba: A New History” by Richard Gott for a detailed analysis of that particular battle.

Why should it be strange that it took Castro 7 days to reach Havana? It was a major victory parade to consolidate the Revolution’s triumph.

Several thousands murdered by Castro? This is typical, Miami fantasizing as all the prime historians on the issue agree. You would think the US, which has always hated Castro, would provide the kind of detailed expose on these thousands of murders. Somehow we knew about the many who died under Stalin and Mao WHILE THEY WERE STILL ALIVE but nothing on Fidel’s “thousands” of dead? You are correct however, on Castro getting arms from US sources. Many Cubans in the US at the time wanted Batista out and lent their support, even veterans of the Spanish Civil War helped Castro. Yes, you are correct that in 1959 the US installed many governments in the region, which is why Eisenhower’s advisors warned that Castro was a “virus” that needed to stamped out.

Just a correction to the posts by Lichen’s, John Ellis and others who distort history and ignore facts. If you went through what the Miami Cubans went through you would also be a raging wide eyed fanatic.

In regards to the Batista dictatorship. First as far as US support for the Batista dictatorship. Get your history right before you start blowing hot air and echoing revisionist Castroist propaganda. The US had an arms embargo against the Batista regime for almost 2 years prior to the fall of the Batista dictatorship. The US supported Castro’s guerrillas if not in direct arms shipment but in moral support and I believe clandestinely with the CIA even though that part can not be corroborated. Castro had much of the support of the American public. In addition the US allowed diverse groups here to support Castro in money and materials. By the way where in the world do you think the guerrillas were getting their arms and money?

Many of the weapons in the hands of the guerrillas were smuggled into the Cuban mountains from you guessed it, the good ol’ USA. Even though the US did not officially send arms to the guerrillas it looked the other way to gun smuggling across the Florida Straits, there was no enforcement to prevent it. So it was rampant and tolerated. Back then it was easy to buy arms in the US and get on a boat to Cuba.

Castro could not have succeeded without the support of groups mostly based in the US that would raise money to buy arms. Castro also received much of his money in cash which was used many times to bribe corrupt Batista government officials including Batista Army officers to order their soldiers to lay down their arms the way they did in Santa Clara. In essence Castro did not fight his way to power in the context he claims, he fired a few shots in some skirmishes and ambushes and bribed his way to victory and drove the rest of the way in a caravan of stolen cars and trucks that took him 7 days to reach Havana. Contrary to the Benicio del Toro film they did steal cars, I was there I know. Castro was making sure the coast was clear before entering Havana. Of course the official Castro version has it differently for propaganda purposes.

The long heroic struggle and bloody battles is all BS. If 200 people died in battle during the insurgency I would be exaggerating. I know cause I was there. The blood did flow after Castro’s ascension to power in a bloodbath of firing squads along the length of the island where many were mercilessly convicted on hearsay, false accusations, revenge, personal grudges all were the order of the day and of course at the whim of the revolutionary tribunals, if you can call it a tribunal. There was no habeas corpus.

We don’t know exactly how many died under Castro’s revolutionary tribunals but it is estimated in the thousands. Many buried in mass graves waiting to be uncovered. Batista on the other hand could only be credited with several hundred executions and political assassinations in his 6 or 7 years in power.

Batista abandoned the country without a credible fight. It took Castro’s group 7 days to reach Havana shows you just really how far he was from removing Batista. Batista just took as much money as he could and cut his losses and flew to Spain into Franco’s awaiting arms.

A final thought let’s not forget who the US and the CIA was at that time in 1959 Latin America. No person rose to power in Latin America without the explicit overt support or implicit covert support of the USA and the CIA. Castro once in power outsmarted the US since he was aware of US intervention in the region. Just read the history of the region and you will realize that these imperialistic interventions have been going on since 1898 if we don’t count the Mexican War. Stalinist style communism was the vehicle Castro used to consolidate and remain in power, of course that is my opinion.

Thong-girl
I tend to agree with you and Sol, though I am not convinced that we are on the verge of a revolution so much as we are on the cusp of the empire’s implosion. The question remains who and what will remain.  It is not the nation state that will gather its virtues to move humanity forward.  I can only hope that humanity itself identifies the means to move past the superficial divide of mental constructs to see itself as a part of the ecology and manages to fill its true place within nature’s niche.  Those who believe we can techno our way to salvation will not survive.

Scotttpot
Exactly!  we consume to be free, but we are slaves to our consumption, an endless
cycle that diverts our understanding of what being human can be.

John Ellis Jan. 5th 1:06
“Cuba*s ‘crime’ is the threat of a good example “

So true.I spent 3 weeks in Cuba 2 years ago .There is a lightness and ‘freedom”
among the people that I don*t feel in L. A. ,New York, or Chicago.They are free
from the tyranny of consumption.They don*t watch as much television as
Americans and are more social and well balanced.If enough Americans visited Cuba it would undermine predatary capitalism and over-consumption.

The only terrorists that can be loosely described as “Cuban” are the right wing exiles in Miami who are constantly plotting murderous attacks to kill civilians in Cuba because they are still upset that the brutal US-sponsered Batista dictatorship was unearthed and now Cuba has no oligarchy to rule over everyone.  I don’t excuse obama for taking his immature, stupid anti-cuba stance, and pretending it has something to do with “freedom” or “democracy.” 

The worst things that happen in Cuba are at Guantanamo, and Cuba would probably be a much more participatory place right now if the US didn’t spend decades supporting the right wing exile terrorists and otherwise hatching CIA plots to kill and overthrow the Cuban government.

And yes, Cuban citizens don’t have it that bad when compared to many, many other democracies and non-democracies alike (better than radical capitalist China and US…)