Hi DBM,
Yes, I do agree that we have to stick with the side of democracy and do so consistently in all cases. I think that the complication to this very simple and noble premise is that we don’t know what democracy looks like in other places and we assume they’re talking about all the same stuff we are.
It’s good someone (you?) brought up Mugabe. If the people rise up and push him out, will we call it a “coup” or a “revolution”? Or both? I guess someone will get riled when I say that I find the show of restraint that the coup (definition: “a sudden and decisive change of government illegally or by force”, so yes, it was) executors showed very impressive for such a young democracy. They could have killed him in the square firing squad style, then gone after his political party members, and then delivered the power of the state into the hands of a military hungry to have it. THAT is what a classic coup looks like and that is probably how it will happen with Mugabe whenever the people do get fed up enough. In Honduras, they did something else, though. They petitioned the high courts, they appealed to inviolability of the constitution, they told him to desist or he’d be arrested, and then they… oops. Here’s the grand fuck-up. They should have arrested him and they didn’t. I think what Obama’s administration is hoping to do is, rather then jump in and say “Bad! Bad! This is not democracy!,” instead give the very necessary space to start a dialogue—and an internationally overheard one—about what democracy is. We can’t force the concept on them; they have to choose it and that’s the change Obama brings, thank goodness, because the other stuff doesn’t work, to say the least. The glaring difficulty down here is that they claim to choose it, they use all the right buzzwords, but they do things that are 100% democratic. I guess the administration knows that and is hoping that their own institutions, even corrupt as they are, will be ample enough for the lofty ideas to rise above the crap-chatter. What happened leading up to this point? What is and isn’t democratic? We could help that discussion by pointing out discrepancies in the narratives put forth by both sides. We don’t help at all when we naively pretend there’s a Robin Hood side and that’s the team that should win. In fact, we harm.

As an American living in Nicaragua for some years, I have to say that I’m squarely with the remarks of Lawrence. Do not spurn my credentials because I own property, please. Are all the people you know who own property bad people? Or is it just if you own it in another country? Talk about ad hominem.

Speaking of, I agree with Lanny Davis that the use of the term “elite” has got to stop, at least long enough to verify that all people who support Micheletti are rich and all people who support Zelaya are poor- NOT the case by a long shot. As Lawrence points out, the reality is more nuanced than the media conveys, but hey, that’s why god made youtube. Go look for yourselves who’s having what kind of rallies. And didn’t anyone *notice* how many brand-new SUV’s there were at the airport in those clips from Zelaya’s landing attempt? THINK. In any case, how disappointing that Mr. Grandin’s counterpoint was that the term “elite” was all over the AP and therefore must be apt. Yes, cut and paste journalism is alive and well but I don’t think independent minds should celebrate it!

Speaking of repeating without verifying, can someone point me to some solid information about assassinations and disappearances? I have yet to see a single name of a person. I’m not saying it’s not true, but it should definitely be investigated before it’s repeated.

I was mystified by the Administration’s swift and firm response, actually, and I’m thankful that they’re taking a more measured approach—not because I think Micheletti should be president, but because I think when you want to stop with foreign meddling, you should stop with foreign meddling. People shouldn’t take Obama’s comments about hypocrisy so personally. My read on it was that he was referring to Chavez and Ortega who blame their problems at every turn on foreign meddling from the evil empire, regardless of whether that’s true. I saw a well-done piece by David Paul Appell (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-appell/letter-from-nicaragua-as_b_138942.html) who points out that Ortega probably didn’t even want to see a liberal in the WH because that means his favorite talking point is gone.

When Obama gave his strong speech in Africa about the need for Africans to determine their own future, I was seriously impressed and hoped he would engage Central America similarly. The right way to “help” is to let societies decide priorities, and where there’s one specific issue that jibes with our own values, develop projects and funding with oversight. And above all, stay the heck out of politics, except when promoting self-determination in democracies (ie, speaking up about electoral fraud). That’s what he’s trying to do here but judging from remarks here, he gets no love for it from his base. He can’t come out and say Zelaya was dismantling democratic institutions and that is a crime against “the people” he claims to represent. He can’t come out and say, “What kind of a nutjob organizes a mob to go attack a military base while saying ‘We don’t listen to the Supreme Court’?” He can’t say, “Wow! But there’s widely available footage of his peeps taking federal money out of vaults with no clear explanation—no wonder Hondurans had enough.”
No, he’s counting on you to do that. But suddenly this super-intelligent man, who is truly left of center, who has a plan and likes to work methodically to make change that is effective and lasting has to endure insults (he’s Bush???) from people who think they’ve got it all figured out. You don’t. But don’t take my word for it (nor the endlessly repeated of others); do your own investigations and see if there really was a social movement taking place and if the poor were really on their way somewhere. You’ll be as bitterly surprised by what you find as I was, I’ll bet.

ps. forgot to answer Dbm question. i’m not involved in the tourism business and i’m not an american property owner in honduras, that would imply that i’m american, which i’m not

DBM and folktruther

sorry its taken me three or four days to get back here ....but i have a life.     
instead of sitting at a computer all day, repeating second hand (at best) information about a country i’ve never been to, instead of actually talking to hondurans, in other words, you two, i have a life. a life where i meet people and talk to them and travel their beautiful country and see their reality.
i don’t know if the u.s. was involved in the ouster of zelaya, in fact i don’t give a toss. i was simply concerned about the dishonesty of the u.s. media in covering the story. i’m interested in what the hondurans think about zelaya removal and the overwhelming majority are pleased he’s gone. but you can’t see that, because you’re too busy living in your online world of central american cia conspiracy and all the other topics featured on this site that you’re such experts on. looking at the internet is not experience, it’s just a bunch of people repeating bullshit they read on the internet.
later today when faced with the choices of either lounging in the sun, scuba diving, snorkeling, kayaking, drinking salva vida beer or staring at a computer screen populated with the ideological equivalents of armchair quarterbacks such as yourselves, i won’t choose the computer.

I just want to congratulate Amy Goodman on her last DemocracyNow! program where she interviewed and gave Laney Davis the privilege of debating with professor Grandin.  Amy Goodman provided us with a class act, as they say.
I was truly embarrassed by the abject failure of Davis and embarrassed for the elite classes whom he represents.  When Lord Acton said his famous lines about power, he certainly had men like Davis in mind.
Amy Goodman remained cool and objective throughout but professor Grandin wasn’t tough enough.
Liberals need to learn how to “take off the gloves” and not fear imaginary punishments from the Power Elite.  Yes, they can punish even in the United States, but not yet with jail and torture.
We need to “take it to them” in the way that intelligent people, who have the moral high ground, have always done.  History teaches us that all progress has been achieved with courage and by seizing various opportunities for telling powerful people unpleasant, unflattering truths, forcefully and clearly.
Amy Goodman has that style and the rest of us should take inspiration from her.

Amy,
  Great reporting, as usual. Don’t be deterred by Lanny Davis’s groundless accusations against you on Friday’s show—-those who can’t deal with facts frequently dismiss fact-based arguments as “ideological rants.” Don’t alter Democracy Now! in any way. Davis is nothing but a vulgar propagandist, and a paid one at that.

mr.davis is certainly assertive (and grating) but most of the hondurans i know agree with his assessment of the circumstances surrounding the removal of zelaya. i don’t know any of the honduran elite, so the opinions i garnered were from the people i meet on a daily basis, taxi drivers, people on the bus, construction workers, store employees, farmers, waiters, fisherman and my night watchman. contrary to the u.s. medias presentation of the situation, when you’re there its obvious zelaya simply doesn’t have very much support within honduras.

i returned to the u.s. last week but i live on one of the honduran bay islands. yes i know where honduras is, i’ve had property there for five years and have been a regular visitor since 2000. i spent most of the last month traveling mainland honduras observing what is going on and i’ve seen everything i talk about, first hand. i’ve seen several pro democracy/interim president rallies in tegus and san pedro sula with tens of thousands of participants(no coverage on u.s. media or cnn espanol). i’ve also seen pro zelaya rallies, there was NEVER more than one or two hundred (mostly masked) people,  burning tires, smashing store windows and throwing rocks at the police. i also observed that at all pro zelaya rallies free food was being provided and when that ran out the crowd thinned dramatically and i was told by several observers (but didn’t personally witness) that cash was also being passed out. i have a few pro zelaya friends but they refuse to attend these rallies because they say that they’re all organised by venezuelans and they resent their meddling. i can categorically state there has been no huge pro zelaya rallies in honduras, none. i defy you or any u.s. news organisation,  to find any footage of huge crowds other than the pro democracy/pro interim government rallies.
i am obviously naive but i have never experienced false news coverage first hand before. its mind blowing to spend a month watching a story unfold and then return to the u.s. and see a completely different story being broadcast by the media. i urge you to reach out to hondurans in honduras via the web and ask them what’s happening, they’re dumbfounded by what they’re seeing on the u.s. news/web.

Hi Laurence Hegarty, are you really in Honduras?  It’s funny because what you are reporting isn’t what we see in live camera footage of huge amounts of people protesting daily.  Also, I didn’t realize that Honduras was a tiny island.  I always thought it was part of Central America, abutted by Guatemala and El Salvador to the west and Nicaragua to the South.

this article is a bunch of bull shit. let them settle their own affairs. stay out of it.

The u.s. Involvement with the Chavez/zelaya cocaine enterprise may well be true. During the Zelaya presidency our tiny Honduran island was being used as a refueling stop for Venezuelan cocaine planes at least one night a week and a place for u.s. Blackhawk helicopter crews to come for lunch about as often. It’s a crazy world out there!

Mr Hegarty (below),
If Chavez and Zelaya are involved in the cocaine trade as you allege, you can bet it’s with the full cooperation of the CIA with Black Ops providing logistics. Nobody gets a pass when it comes to competing with the United States’ drug profits.

this is called truthdig.com, correct? i simply want to know where amy gets her information?  the whole program that was broadcast on democracy now radio, culminating in amy’ interview with zelaya was peppered with half truths, exaggerations and outright lies re. what has been happening in honduras since june 28th. i don’t have credentials, i’m just somebody who’s actually been in honduras during the situation and witnessed it first hand.  if that makes me a “cyber sniper”, so be it.

There is no need for Amy Goodman to defend being a journalist. I’ve never known her to do anything but uncover the story - often in harms way. Something that few people today have the courage to do. It takes no courage to take shots from the safety and anonymity afforded one via the cyber-snipers nest. Unless credentials are given - which Amy has earned through her historic and honorable quest for truth - it’s just an opinion, which is next to meaningless.
I’m grateful to people who possess the personal ethics and exceptional principles necessary to earn respect. In an age when people think respect is a right it’s a pleasure to be able to listen to someone so easy to admire.
Keep telling us what they tell you Ms. Goodman. Your presence is needed and appreciated.

The fact is that there was a coup. Whether or not there were concerns that needed addressing, a CIA type coup operation and the President of Hondorus was kidnapped and removed from the country.  Would it be alright if our own president was removed in the same manner, with no means of effective legal defense provided an no voice of the people?  Our own media selects what news they want to give us.  And our Government as well is under the control of the elite that control our news, and thereby control vertually all of our minds as well. There is no question that the Coup was an act of tyranny and should not be accepted by our own government.

amy,
i have just spent the last eight months in honduras (and have been there for most of the last three years). after listening to your show and reading your articles i’m shocked, where are you getting your information from? most of what you’re saying is absolutely not true. the vast majority of hondurans are squarely behind the interim president and extremely happy that zelaya is gone. pro-government rallies have tens of thousands attending and are peaceful (they never get u.s. media coverage). pro-zelaya rallies are poorly attended, violent (i have attended two) and even my friends who are pro-zelaya won’t attend them because they’re organized by venezuelans. even so, the rallies i observed were handled very professionally by the police despite very vicious protesters. there has been no mass arrests, the government and judiciary continues to function. the reality is zelaya simply can’t drum up large numbers of supporters. there has been no mass of zelaya supporters at the border (no matter what the press may say) i was there twice and never saw more than two hundred people including press and that’s not because they were being arrested before they could get there (i confirmed with a reporter from reuters that only 168 had been stopped from reaching the area and they were released later in the day).
the raping of the honduran treasury by zelaya is also getting no coverage by the u.s. media, even though you have to go no further than youtube to see his cronies caught on bank security video camera, pushing shopping carts full of cash they have just withdrawn from government accounts a couple of days prior to his ouster. one of these “shoppers” is now on zelaya’ negotiating team in costa rica.
hondurans had been increasingly alarmed by the influence of chavez over zelaya in the last couple of years and the ballots that were smuggled in from venezuela was simply the last straw. that chavez and zelaya were partners in the cocaine trade is undeniable. for the last couple of years venezuelan planes loaded with coke have been refueling on the little island i live on at least once a week, since zelaya was ousted we have not had one. chavez is trading arms for cocaine with farc in columbia and using honduras to funnel it through the caribbean and into the u.s.
there are no good guys in honduran politics, honduran military or honduran police, the corruption is systemic but zelaya was becoming the worst of the worst.