TAO Walker, November 16 at 4:54 pm #

Ouroboros may or may not be somewhat surprised (and probably not at all pleased) to hear Human Beings have never had any “....control over our own destiny.”

*****************************

Mr. Walker may or may not be surprised, or pleased, to hear that many do not share his view on this matter. Why else do folks come here if not to attempt to make a difference. Sometimes religious belief is just an excuse for inaction.

Winning the war in Afghanistan cannot be done without breaking the will of
thousands of disconnected tribes. Each is led by a fierce tribal leader that refuses
to be controlled by any government. Karzai who is a seasoned warrior must get
into a tank and lead the bloody war against millions of dissidents and infidels. 
But the final battle will be between Hamid Karzai and his corrupt brother. It will
be a wrestling match between good and evil. The winner will lead Afghanistan.

After having watched 60 Minutes this week and reviewing the President’s viusal reaction when he visited Dover, I am even more convinced the US should pull out of Afghanistan immediately. 
    And the US should not be bound by any seeming “promises” made to or about the Afghan people or their current government (which functionally represents about 10% of their people).  And there should be no limitations IF the US should need to return at some point.  History shows the Brits have gone back there several times (not counting their NATO role). 
    Precious soldiers and expensive equipment should not be used as mere experimental testing dummies for IEDs. Apparently the Afghan roads are perfect for hiding $10 bombs every 100 yards that can take out either a million dollar Buffalo or half a dozen human passengers each time -  sounds to me like a price too dear for any rational leader to pay.

Ouroboros may or may not be somewhat surprised (and probably not at all pleased) to hear Human Beings have never had any “....control over our own destiny.”  That is entirely a function of our given place in the Living Arrangement of our Mother Earth.  It is only the subspecies homo domesticus, anyhow, that has been tricked into addiction (by the same methods they’ve been tricked out of their organic birthright) to the false ‘currency’ of “HOPE!”  Free wild Creatures have no need for it.  We’re able to take things however they come….as “hell” AND high Water, if neeed-be, or any Way at all.

The FATE of our tame Sisters and Brothers, however, is certainly looking grim here in these latter days.  Their tormentors seem about fed-up with ‘em, and those damned fools’ two-legged tools, left now to their own poor devices, can only clamber on the corpses of the “less fortunate” in a vain effort to escape the terminal CONsequences of their wretched excess.

There’s still The Tiyoshpaye Way through it, though.

Hokahey!

Ourobus, fine interview…thank you!

Joe, thanks for the kind words!

Joe the Philosopher, November 16 at 3:20 am #

This should be forced listening:
===================================
LOL, I agree, but; you can lead a horse to water but,
blah, blah, blah…..........

Thanks to Ouroborus for the link to the interview with David Bromwich.

This should be forced listening:

http://tinyurl.com/yhp9vpx

jackpine savage makes a good point about insubordinate generals on his excellent website (no pimping minded, unless you’re selling snake oil like some guys). His opinion is worth reading. I’ll pimp for him.

Think about that last sentence:  “As long as our goals are as elusive as they are now . . .”  Like if they were less elusive—that is, if they were more clearly stated?  if they were more possible to achieve? that would make it okay? 
  Being “elusive” is essential.
  Is Afghanistan any threat to the U.S.?  No.
Do we need to conquer Afghanistan and change its culture, religion, government?  No.  Do we need to continue to kill Afghanis for any reason?  No.  Are we improving our nation by fighting Afghanis?  No.
  If the goals were less “elusive” (such as feeding the defense industries and the Pentagon)  those promoting the war would not be able to hide behind   “elusiveness”.  They don’t want people to think about the goals too much or too clearly, because if that happened, the people wouldn’t fight the war or pay for it.

ardee, November 15 at 1:07 pm #

My real point is; why should the government be
responsive to “the people”? The people aren’t willing
to make any effective demands on the government.
In Europe, for the most part, the governments are
afraid of the people; in the U.s., the people are
afraid of their government. That’s all anybody really
needs to know.

I don’t know how many of you have seen the recently released archival politburo minutes from November 1986. Frightening is the best way to describe the mirroring between then and now.

http://electricworry.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/walking-like-a-pretzel/

(with links to the original documentation)

No, this isn’t pimping…just putting information out so that all might see it. I couldn’t care less about blog hits.

Two Birds with one stone- Civilian Recruitment.
Afgahnistan has never been ‘defeated’ by military means, because they do not act as a nation, but as a conglomerate of tribes/clans. Pure Whackamole. Be friend one, you piss off another. Endless combintions of relationships that utlimately leave the occupier at a disadvantage.
Plenty of Americans are out of work, from professions that would be useful, if not also constructive in building a better rapport.
We should be encouraging any and all to enlist in something like the Peace Corp.
But business needs to do it’s part, by proving what they claim about their ‘extraordinary Talents’ at creating a viable economy. Send some of those guilty of destroying our eocnomy over to Afghanistan and show US how they can make something out of nothing.
“A deal they can’t refuse” for every 5 yr committment, you get 10 knocked off your prison sentence.

Hell no! But why is that? You tell me…

Need I tell you what you already know, Ouroborous? Our govt cannot serve two masters, the people being one and the corporations the other. The former can occasionally donate a few bucks, if inspired, while the latter doles out millions on a regular basis, also providing a path to a six figure retirement for our “representatives”.

Government as an extension of the people huh…...

Mr. President:

They used to die for Bush’s lies.
Now they die for yours.
You lie, another sucker dies;
Well, that’s the way of wars.

Remember to support the troops as all good Nazis did.

Few if any administrations are “ready to go” on the day of inauguration of the President. There is no cabinet yet and a multitude of lower positions must still be filled. All of the hot air released during the campaigns has yet to be transformed into coherent actions. There are now at least three issues which demonstrate glaringly that President Obama was woefully inexperienced and unprepared when he took the helm: Guantanamo, Afghanistan, and Health Care.
As I have said above, this problem with our governance is not Obama’s alone. However, as long as this idiotic preparation for governing of our nation in the 21-st century with an 18-th century tradition continues we the people will continue to be dismally served and it will only get worse in the future.

ardee, November 15 at 8:57 am #

No I don’t. Manipulated? Lied to? Coerced? Who cares?

“So, Ouroborous, do you then stake out the position
that our govt is responsive to the wishes of its
people?”

Hell no! But why is that? You tell me…

No, wrong. Government (ours) is an extension of the people; and, without their complicity and acquiescence our present wars wouldn’t have happened.

So, Ouroborous, do you then stake out the position that our govt is responsive to the wishes of its people? A strange position I think.

The people are manipulated, perhaps too easily, perhaps we are too willing to leave the difficult decisions to the wrong people. Perhaps we vote with brain disengaged, or refuse to participate in frustration, or worse, disinterest. But if you hold that our govt is an extension of the people you posit a textbook unreality I fear.

DieDaily, November 15 at 6:19 am #
There are no wars
started by populations…just governments. Therefore
it is not true that people are warmongers, whereas it
is absolutely true that the small subtype of
sociopaths that covet political power are warmongers.
======================================
No, wrong. Government (ours) is an extension of the
people; and, without their complicity and acquiescence our present wars wouldn’t have happened.
You sound as though you do not hold the American
people responsible for our wars. Nothing could be
further from the truth. I’m not so forgiving.

Here’s a link to an interview with David Bromwich. This
is about “words” and how to listen for meaning in the
media and politicians. Excellent and a must listen,
IMO.

http://tinyurl.com/yhp9vpx

Oh, I think there is plenty of hope for humanity.
Just look at how only the tiniest fraction of the
people who post here take Obama seriously. That’s
real progress. People are beginning to realize that
the only killers are governments. There are no wars
started by populations…just governments. Therefore
it is not true that people are warmongers, whereas it
is absolutely true that the small subtype of
sociopaths that covet political power are warmongers.
Elementary. All of this devolves down to a single
concern: how can we the people wrest power back from
the elite. The sickness of humanity resides not in
the people at large, but in the few individuals who
have hijacked the political process for their own
ends.

Rosemary Molloy, November 14 at 7:44 pm #

But, isn’t that the American way? Aren’t we the center
of the universe? No? :o

TAO Walker, November 14 at 6:13 pm #

Anymore, hope is like a homeless person looking through
dumpsters for scraps of food. We humans are a hopeless
lot, doomed to repeat history over and over and over
again. As if that weren’t enough; we believe we no
longer have any control over our own destiny; now
that’s hopeless.

It’d be a hopeful sign if Eugene Robinson and some others here would recognize that sacrificing any people at all to the blood-lusting, variously nicknamed “god” of WAR, under any rationalized pretenses at all, is absolute proof of rampant institutionalized MADness in both the “priesthood” of its profiteering practitioners and the cleverly CONfused collective of their fear-driven “individual” enablers.  Maybe then the damned thing could be finally stripped of all its make-believe “justifications,” and treated as the terminal social disease that it is….and has always been.

Just in-case anybody is wondering, though, this old Savage is not holding his breath in anticipation.

HokaHey!

The most dreadful burden of the presidency—the power to send men and women to die for their country—seems to weigh heavily on Barack Obama these days. He went to Dover Air Force Base to salute the coffins of fallen troops.

Ha!  Ha!  “Weigh heavily”  LOL!  Barry baby don’t give a damn about the lives of Americans or Afghans.  He went to Dover to signal the coming escalation in Afghanistan.  Barry baby only cares about being reelected and playing golf.  He is nothing more than the ordinarily corrupt, sociopathic yuppie politician he’s proven himself to be over these last nine months.

A wise leader should ask , How many people have to die for vengeance?

Sodomy and bestiality are common in an Afghan culture where women are kept
under lock and key. Only the wealthy can afford to have normal sex. Roadside
bombs have killed millions of camels. Young boys are no longer safe in a nation
of sex starved farm workers. Protecting the camel is a necessity in a nation where
calm once prevailed.

jacicaalban, November 14 at 2:28 am #

Your cut and paste of a fine speech notwithstanding ( accreditation is lacking ), I wonder at your posting of links to advertising? Seems a bit self serving and out of place, at least to me.

Re: DieDaily

Your comment: “The manufactured, false, diversionary debate we are asked to participate in (only symbolically of course, long abrogated is our right to have an actual impact) is a smokescreen.”

Manufactured….False….. Diversionary….. Symbolically…. Abrogated….. Smokescreen….. (in one sentence!!!!!)

What’d ya’ do, take a course in adjectives and direct objects…..buy a “word for the day” calendar…what…?  Not to worry, Palin will support ya’.  You betcha.

Re: Eugene Robinson

Quote: “It would be wrong to demand such sacrifice in the absence of military goals that are clear, achievable and worthwhile.”

I agree.  However, logic dictates that your other quote directly opposes the above.

Quote: “There are reports that Obama has refused to sign off on any plan until his advisers tell him how they propose to end the expanded war they advocate. But this sounds like just another way of saying: Tell me how we’re going to fix the mistake we’re about to make.”

I disagree and reason it as, our goal is to end it, THEREFORE how do the various propositions seek to achieve that end, what or when do we say we’ve accomplished our goal, what is our goal, how is it measured and when will we attain it.  While this may appear circular logic, it is not.

If our goal, which I surmise is Pres. Obama’s goal, is to end it…. then the challenge to all positions engages this as an endpoint.  If Pres. Obama says, I want us out and that IS the endpoint.  What do we need to do, what are we attempting to do and when will we say we’ve accomplished our goal is the necessary “elephant in the room” qualification.

Yes, Karzai is corrupt, the Taliban is corrupt and the warlords are corrupt….. and what we’re hearing is that all are also quite vicious.  The sad fact is (and I wish I were a “fly on the wall” in this regard… so that I had a better gauge of things) is these are all reasons to stay, so for me the situation is dire for the Afghan People…. are we making it worse…?

Quote: “The most dreadful burden of the presidency—the power to send men and women to die for their country—seems to weigh heavily on Barack Obama these days.”

I agree and he is not alone.  OTOH, all of us get to “make our decision” in the comfort of our crappy desk chair.  Which suddenly feels a whole lot more comfortable than the Oval Office.

Dirty Earnie, jacicaalban, what thoughtful and
intelligent posts you have written. We taught that
“compromise is good”, and sometimes this is true. But
the government (the executive, Obama) have slyly
shifted the debate so that instead of debating
whether we should stay or go, we inanely focus
instead upon whether we should “increase troops or
decrease troops”. You have both hit the nail on the
head in different but equally important ways. The
manufactured, false, diversionary debate we are asked
to participate in (only symbolically of course, long
abrogated is our right to have an actual impact) is a
smokescreen. We therefore must, as jacicaalban so
astutely points out, reject the entire false debate.
If this is the sort of drivel that the congress is
being asked to “debate” then GRIDLOCK IS THE VERY
MOST WE CAN HOPE FOR.

Obama Lied People Died

http://www.blog2.tshirt-doctor.com/?p=3625

Robinson does some penance for a recent bland and nonjudgmental article in support of Obama, or at least all we had hoped Obama would be..

Or is this only an attempt by Robinson to reclaim the mantle of objective observer?

I’m a huge fan of our President Obama.. but I increasingly question if he will achieve much of his mandate… from what I’ve seen so far of him in office.

Thanks.

Anyone with their eyes open can see that the war in Afghanistan is a waste of human life to no particular end. To continue to throw our troops’ lives into that abyss is a tragedy that can be avoided. Support our troops—-get them out of there!

Our “allies” are pulling out, so we have to send more fodder to Afghanistan. The British are the one world government advocates, and this colonization is another example of how we have fallen for the empire philosophy of Queen Victoria. Give us tariffs before we all go broke from outsourcing to slave wage countries afraid of American bombs.

”...the power to send men and women to die for their country—seems to weigh heavily on Barack Obama these days.”

It’s about time a POTUS actually stopped to think about his actions as regards to the children that America is sending to fight in these wars of EMPIRE!  I realize that far too many Americans believed in the LIE that “we” were fighting for freedom, democracy, women’s liberation, and terrorism, it was all just a lie!  This nation was taken to war for OIL & A PIPELINE thru Afghanistan - a way for the Rich & Oligarchic to get a return on their investment in the Presidency of George W. Bush!

Many of those same rethugnikans that are loudly talking about cowardice - much like GWB and Darth Chaney, didn’t go to VietNam - they had other things to do!  That they have no problem sending other peoples children to die not just for a lie, but for their dreams of EMPIRE is astounding!  Afghanistan is a debacle, corruption of government officials is past that of Congress, and the women, well they are still the oppressed and suffering!  So much for democracy!  Hell, America cannot “export” that which even “we” don’t have!  We give short shrift to the word, but the truth is Americans are so dumbed down, and such “religionist sheeple” that we have truly forgotten what real democracy really is!  Maybe if more Americans really knew what it was - we might not have those obstructionist whores in Congress!

So if it takes President Obama some time to decide whether or not to send our children to war, then my only hope is that he seriously contemplates why we really are there, and is EMPIRE & the Oligarchy really worth it to the American people!!!

“Everyone’s values are defined by what they will tolerate when it is done to others.”
(William Greider)
Go Right Young Man writes: “Is Afghanistan the new Vietnam? Hardly. In the three bloodiest years, 2007 through 2009 so far, the United States has suffered a total of 553 fatalities — tragic, but less than 1 percent of the 58,159 Americans killed in Vietnam. What is astounding is the ability of the U.S. military to inflict damage on the enemy, protect the constitutional government and keep our losses to a minimum.”
Why is it that the costs of warfare are always measured in the costs to us?  Why is it that the thousands upon thousands of innocent victims of US aggression and invasion are never a consideration in such self-serving calculations? 
The fact is “U.S. leaders commit war crimes as a matter of institutional necessity, as their imperial role calls for keeping subordinate peoples in their proper place and assuring a “favorable climate of investment” everywhere. They do this by using their economic power, but also ... by supporting Diem, Mobutu, Pinochet, Suharto, Savimbi, Marcos, Fujimori, Salinas, and scores of similar leaders. War crimes also come easily because U.S. leaders consider themselves to be the vehicles of a higher morality and truth and can operate in violation of law without cost. It is also immensely helpful that their mainstream media agree that their country is above the law and will support and rationalize each and every venture and the commission of war crimes.”
(Edward Herman, political economist and author)
“If the U.S. really believes that supporting terrorists makes you as guilty as the terrorists themselves, then it would have to put on trial most of its military and political leadership over the last handful of administrations, and more.”
(Peter McClaren)
“If an American is concerned only about his nation, he will not be concerned about the peoples of Asia, Africa, or South America. Is this not why nations engage in the madness of war without the slightest sense of penitence? Is this not why the murder of a citizen of your own nation is a crime, but the murder of citizens of another nation in war is an act of heroic virtue?”
(Martin Luther King, Jr.)
“The United States government was proud that, although perhaps 100,000 Iraqis had died in the Gulf War of 1991, there were only 48 American battle casualties. What it has concealed from the public is that 206,000 veterans of that war filed claims with the VA for injuries and illnesses. In the years since that war, 8,300 veterans have died, and 160,000 claims for disability have been recognized by the VA.”
(Howard Zinn)

Could someone tell “Ear to the Ground” section (I’m sorely lacking in tech skills)that http://www.guardian.co.uk has just put up a story on the home page of a big rise in the number of babies born with deformities in Fallujah.  Who is surprised.  Depleted uranium?  White phosporous residue? Whatever.

Until the US removes it’s military (and removes land and sea mines wherever they’ve deposited them), there will be new pollutions, new deaths.  The damage is ongoing from munitions already “spewed”. 

On another site, DailyKos, I think, in an article on Swine Flu, that more have died this year from Swine Flu than Sept.11,2001 - but I pointed out that he stopped counting without adding those who died from the exposure-caused illness since Sept.11,
2001 and people are still dying - first responders, people who lived and worked in the neighborhood.  We don’t even know how far the crap moved by air.
(I had asthma some miles away from the smoke some days after that first day.)  War has consequences.
PEACE NOW!

President Obama is currently deciding whether to send as many as 60,000 additional U.S. soldiers to the war in Afghanistan.

Let’s urge Obama to live up to his 2009 Nobel Peace Prize. Tell him to withdraw troops from Afghanistan—not send more.

http://bit.ly/noafghansurge

No, Wingnut, the majority is opposed to more Imperial expansion and occupation—-and that is a surefire formula for insuring a steady stream of “terrorists” who will oppose aggression from the occupier and the slaughter of their people. Of course, you might comprehend this if you actually viewed them as human beings responding rather like Americans—unquestionably the sole human beings apparently,who would respond in defense of their country and people. It is convenient to simply write them all off as enemy jihadists.

Like those opposed to government inteference—except when it comes to women’s bodies or Free Market crooks, so-called Rightwing fiscal conservatives never lose an opportunity to pour missing trillions (see Rumsfeld)down some Strangelove hatched war game.

Is Afghanistan ungovernable? No more so than any of the region’s other rough countries. After the founding of the modern state in 1919, Afghanistan enjoyed a relative stable succession of constitutional monarchs until 1973. The country was once considered generally secure, tolerant and hospitable to foreigners.

Did we really take our eye off the “good” war in Afghanistan to fight the optional bad one in Iraq? Not quite. After a brilliant campaign to remove the Taliban in 2001, a relatively stable Karzai government saw little violence until 2007. Between 2001 and 2006, no more than 100 American soldiers were killed in any given year.

In fact, American casualties increased after Iraq became quiet — as Islamists, defeated in Iraqi’s Al Anbar province, refocused their efforts on the dominant Afghan theater.

Is Afghanistan the new Vietnam? Hardly. In the three bloodiest years, 2007 through 2009 so far, the United States has suffered a total of 553 fatalities — tragic, but less than 1 percent of the 58,159 Americans killed in Vietnam. What is astounding is the ability of the U.S. military to inflict damage on the enemy, protect the constitutional government and keep our losses to a minimum.

Our military is the most experienced in both counterterrorism and counterinsurgency warfare in the world. The maverick savior of Iraq, Gen. David Petraeus, now oversees operations in the Mideast and Central Asia. His experienced lieutenant, Gen. Stanley McChrystal, is a successful veteran of the worst fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Unlike past foreign interventions, our U.N.-approved aim is not to create a puppet state, but a consensual government able to defend itself against the Taliban and al-Qaeda — while preventing more strikes against the United States.

With Iraq relatively stabilized, jihadists have no choice but to commit their resources to prevent a second defeat. Meanwhile, Pakistan at last is cracking down on terrorist enclaves.

Unlike the case with the unpopular Bush decision to surge troops in Iraq, President Obama does not face a hostile political opposition at home. Many Americans are undecided rather than against continuing the war.

Republicans in Congress will support the administration’s efforts to secure the country. There are no conservative counterparts to Michael Moore and Cindy Sheehan. Even most anti-war Democrats became quiet once Barack Obama was elected. European NATO commanders want the U.S. to lead them to victory.

What, then, prevents President Obama from sending more troops to secure the country?

Mostly problems of presidential indecision and confusion. Candidate Obama ran on the theme of Afghanistan as the necessary war, Iraq the optional one. But he assumed the then-quiet front in Afghanistan would stay that way, while Americans would withdraw from what he deemed a hopeless effort in Iraq.

Just the opposite ensued. The surge worked. But Afghanistan heated up. So now the president finds himself increasingly trapped by his campaign rhetoric. He is on record as committed to defeating the Taliban and winning the “necessary” war. But the president is now also a Noble Peace Laureate who apparently does not want what has become a messy conflict with Islamists on his watch.

We have experienced soldiers and military leadership, a just cause and Western unity. In other words, we have everything we need to defeat the Taliban — except a commander-in-chief as confident about fighting and winning as he once was as a candidate.

I believe I understand the reasoning of Mr. Cowey, and respect his points. However I would offer that there are certainly enough proofs in existence to decide that a military solution is going to actually increase hardships there, make establishing a real democracy impossible and boots on the ground seems to be increasing the power and scope of “terrorism”.

I think it time we explored a more peaceful way to help this nation.