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McGovern: Get Out of Afghanistan

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Posted on Nov 4, 2009
Truthdig

By Narda Zacchino

Editor’s note: A video excerpt of McGovern’s comments can be found below this article; the complete salon video, and a full transcript, can be found here.

George McGovern has some advice for President Barack Obama: Get U.S. troops out of Afghanistan.

“I’m convinced that war is going to turn sour. I’m convinced we’re not going to prevail there,” McGovern, the 1972 Democratic presidential nominee, said Sunday at a Truthdig event in West Los Angeles.

The former U.S. senator from South Dakota noted that “some of the best reporters over there are telling us that the Taliban are getting stronger and we’re getting weaker in the minds of the people, and that you have a corrupt government involved in drugs, involved in just plain old-fashioned stealing and corruption. It’s a lousy government, and it’s very difficult, even for a great country like [the U.S.], to make them look good. So I think we have every reason to withdraw.”

McGovern’s comments came on the heels of a New York Times report that Afghan President Hamid Karzai’s brother, Ahmed Wali Karzai, on the CIA payroll for nearly eight years, is suspected by many top American officials of being involved in that country’s lucrative and illicit opium trade. President Karzai himself drew criticism after the United Nations declared one-third of his votes in his Aug. 20 re-election to be fraudulent, forcing a runoff with Dr. Abdullah Abdullah. Karzai’s rival eventually withdrew, saying the runoff would not be any less rigged. The vote was canceled and Karzai was officially declared the winner Monday.

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Against this backdrop, and with October the deadliest month yet for U.S. military personnel in Afghanistan with 55 killed, Obama has put off a decision on whether to send thousands more troops to that country as requested by the top U.S. commander there, Gen. Stanley McChrystal.

McGovern said Sunday he did not want to see Obama head down the path of Democrat Lyndon Johnson, for whom another quagmire, the Vietnam War, spelled the end to his presidency. McGovern, who won the Distinguished Flying Cross for heroism during World War II, noted he was the first member to oppose the Vietnam War on the floor of the Senate.

A historian, McGovern said he would remind Obama that foreign powers have been trying unsuccessfully to prevail in Afghanistan “ever since Alexander the Great. Genghis Khan even made a shot at it. The British throughout the 19th century were in there several times trying to pacify the [country] and finally gave up. The Russians were there for 11 years, 1979 until 1990, they put in 100,000 crack soldiers, 25,000 of them killed ... in Afghanistan, another 25,000 crippled or injured. And the Russian treasury went broke, and some of our best Soviet experts believe that’s what really led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.”

Asked how he would get out of Afghanistan if he were president, McGovern said: “I would say to the Afghan people that ‘we’ve been here for eight years, and we’ve come to the conclusion we can’t resolve your problems. You’ve got the Taliban, you may have al-Qaida, but—our soldiers have fought, died bravely—but it’s my conclusion, as president of the United States, that we can’t resolve the problems here. We’ll do what we can to help you, but we can’t do it with our military forces. As a matter of fact, while we’ve been here, the Taliban have grown stronger, and we don’t know where al-Qaida is—we think they’re in Pakistan—but having our troops in Afghanistan is not going to help that. So it’s our judgment that the best thing for us, and maybe for you, is for you to take over the handling of your own problems.”

Despite his belief that Afghanistan can be “a danger” to Obama, McGovern, who was in Los Angeles to promote his new biography, “Abraham Lincoln,” believes the domestic issues of health care and the economy will be of greatest consequence to Obama’s future. Critical that Obama “started with a compromise proposal” that came out of Congress as a 2,000-page document, McGovern said, “I would have just had a one-sentence bill: ‘Congress hereby extends Medicare to all Americans.’  Period.” However, he acknowledged that “If he could somehow get through even a compromise national health insurance bill, I think that’s the kind of thing that gets presidents re-elected. We don’t know at this stage what’s going to happen on national health care, but every politician I talk with says that’s the key issue. ... It doesn’t seem to make much difference whether it’s a conservative state or a liberal state, there’s strong support for national health care. So I think it was wise for the president to begin with that on the domestic front.”

Regarding the economy, McGovern confessed “my ignorance on high finance” but praised Obama’s stimulus program and said he believed the economy would turn around “in the next two or three years. ... And that’s going to work favorably in terms of the re-election of the president. If people are doing reasonably well economically, it’s hard to defeat an incumbent president. So no matter what the fallout might be, good or bad, on Afghanistan, I don’t think that is going to be as important as these two matters I’ve just mentioned, in terms of him getting re-elected. I don’t see the move on Afghanistan as a way to get elected, but I see ... the course that I recommended as a way of avoiding defeat.”

Videography and editing by Brian Rudloff


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DieDaily's avatar

By DieDaily, November 11, 2009 at 11:02 pm Link to this comment

Absolute agreement on all your points, JDmydticDJ.

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By JDmysticDJ, November 11, 2009 at 8:38 pm Link to this comment

DieDaily

I have investigated the links you provided regarding the “Kosher Tax, Tarrif, whatever..” The first link does provide apparenent factual evidence that such a program does exist. However, I can easily understand why many would reject this apparently factual evidence, out of hand, because of the production values of the documentary. For example, the unnecessary pictorial portrayal of a Jewish Rabbi. Sad as it is, this unnecessary portrayal seems to be designed to appeal to people who have anti-semitic leanings. Also, the request that these products be identified, using the Star of David, causes one to recall a not too distant, horrific event in human history.

I found the second link to be more credible. It provides verifiable evidence that such a program does exist. Also, it provides quantifiable evidence of the inordinate amount of support our Nation has given to the State of Israel. For example, the information that our Nation has provided more dollars in foreign aid to the Nation of Israel than to all the other Nations of the world combined. This information is puzzling, and leads one to ask the question, why has this occurred? Some will offer simplistic psuedo truisms and/or the necessities of Global Cold War Strategies, and Post Cold War Global Strategies as being the answer(s) to the question. Are there other realities that might help provide answers to the question.

All in all, I would say that the issue - “The existance or non-existance of a “Kosher Tax, Tarrif, whatever..” - Has sparked much debate here, and is a relatively small one, as it pertains to the greater issues. This smaller debate has served only to point out the hatred spewing demogoguery of some of the comments we have witnessed regarding issues debated here. It’s a sad commentary that much energy must be expended in combatting demogouery, when discussing issues which have potentially disasterous consequences.

Some will say this debate started as a commentary on Eugene McGovern’s oppinions regarding the War in Afghanistan, and rapidly degenerated into a debate of unrelated issues. Others will say that the debate that ensued here, is in large part, at the very core of the tragic events that have unfolded, and continue to unfold, in the Middle East and Central Asia. Who are those who are reponsible for these tragic events? In my view, the villains are all those, on both sides of a conflict, who advocate for the efficacy of war, and react to the horrors of war, by flipently commenting that “War is hell.” They are, apparently, advocating for Hell. Is peace unachievable? Peace has been achieved, and wars have been avoided, but lasting peace has not been a historical reality . People who strive for peace face a seemingly, unsurmountable task. Victory in the struggle for peace will come when mankind’s leaders finally recognize the inhumanity and futility of war. It’s up to we the people of the world, to demand that our leaders recognize these realities. We must fight the good fight. Victory in the struggle for peace lies within the heart, mind, and soul of every man, and woman. Fight the good fight.

Peace, JDmysticDJ

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By JDmysticDJ, November 11, 2009 at 1:36 pm Link to this comment

Oops! I misspelled impractical. Hopefully my spelling error won’t desroy my credibility, or be used as evidence of anti-semitism.

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By JDmysticDJ, November 11, 2009 at 12:27 pm Link to this comment

ArDee

Please forgive my attempts at humor,(i.e. Ins. Company Executives, Noam Chomski, Ahmidnejad’s Speech…) in response to your comment:

“Now if you will excuse me I must go collect some gentile blood for our Friday rituals…Foktruther, are you coming”

Was the above comment: An attempt at humor? A veiled call for sympathetic support? An attempt to portray people opposed to Israeli Policies in the “Worst Possible Light”? or further resort to the - Red Herring - of anti-semitism in response to serious issues regarding Israeli Policies?

Many of Ahmidinejad’s statements in the speechs are very similar to statements made by Noam Chomski in his writings. Ahmidiejad’s call for a return to the pre-1967 war borders, may be impracticle, in today’s world.

Much has been written about the 1967 War. For the sake of argument, let me recount one incident that ocurred in relationship to the 1967 War. The U.S.S. Liberty, a U.S intelligence gathering ship, came under attack from the Israeli Air Force, while traveling in international waters. The attack killed 34 U.S. sailors and wounded 170. The attack lasted for 6 hours, in spite of all radio communications, and the U.S. Flag flying high above the ship (And clearly visible.) Israel said the attack was a mistake. Others suggest the attack was a result of Israeli fears that the ship might gather intelligence regarding Israel’s preparations for the coming surprise attack on Arab Nations. The attack, on the U.S.S. Liberty, was never investigated, just as Goldstone’s U.N. sponsored report aleging war crimes were committed by Iraeli forces during the most recent Israeli incursion into Palestinian territory, will never be investigated. Why?

P.S. I have not yet had the opportunity to investigate DieDaily’s allegation of a “Kosher Tax,” but I do know that one of the largest american manufacturers of breakfast cereals (Kellogs?) have had a program, where a certain percentage of the proceeds of the purcahase of those breakfast cereals would be directed to the support of U.S. education programs.
Is the possibility that Jewish American business interests have created a similar program intended to benefit Israel, so rediculous that it is rejected out of hand, along with angry insults and - once again - charges of anti-semitism?

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By PatrickHenry, November 11, 2009 at 7:53 am Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, November 11 at 12:35 am #

The only ones I know who say now are the white jewish redneck guys.

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By JDmysticDJ, November 10, 2009 at 10:16 pm Link to this comment

Inherit the Wind

Having been around during the civil rights movement, I can tell you that your tone is very similar to the tone of the bully boys who followed Bull Connor, Lester Maddox and George Wallace. You spit out your venomous insults and charges of anti-semitism in just the same way as they did their racial slurs.

Peace, JDmysticDJ

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By JDmysticDJ, November 10, 2009 at 9:09 pm Link to this comment

Ardee

“Now if you will excuse me I must go collect some gentile blood for our Friday rituals…Foktruther, are you coming?”

I had my suspicions about you two, but I never thought you could be so evil. You’re Insurance Company Health Care Executives, aren’t You.

Thanks for the links to Ahmidinejad’s Speechs. They’re a good read. They remind me of Noam Chomski.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 10, 2009 at 8:35 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry, November 10 at 10:57 pm #

By Inherit The Wind, November 10 at 10:37 pm #

And then it’s the old segregationists’ cry “Whah summa mah bes’ frens are .......”

Do you do that in black face?
**************************************************

What? Are you competing with TD3 and ElisaLouisa for “Dumbest Poster Ever”????  Or are you actually racist as well as anti-semitic?

It was the WHITE REDNECK GUYS who used to say that.  You know, the Bull Connors and Lester Maddoxes and George Wallace…“Wha, summa mah bes’ fren’s are nigras”...

Do you even know who those bozos were?

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By PatrickHenry, November 10, 2009 at 6:57 pm Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, November 10 at 10:37 pm #

And then it’s the old segregationists’ cry “Whah summa mah bes’ frens are .......”

Do you do that in black face?

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By Inherit The Wind, November 10, 2009 at 6:37 pm Link to this comment

Patrick Henry:

It’s the de facto anti-semites like you and Ed Harges and this new guy who give carte blanche to the REAL KKK/ Aryan Brotherhood pinheads to come out and state their fantastical racist views.  Your fact-famished opinions make THEM look like they are not so extreme.

As the GOP keeps moving us back more and more to segregation, while claiming to be against it (and many of the pols may HONESTLY believe that), you and EH are moving us toward make overt Jew-baiting acceptable once again.

And then it’s the old segregationists’ cry “Whah summa mah bes’ frens are .......”

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By PatrickHenry, November 10, 2009 at 4:49 pm Link to this comment

By JDmydticDJ, November 10 at 9:52 pm #

Ardees point is a more visual one beginning at his ears and ending at a point at the top of his head.

I fear yours and DieDailys posts being an open exchange will only meet stifling, smug, quasi-intellectual retorts which others and myself have grown accustomed to over these many years.  Both of your posts on this thread are accurate and bring the elephant in the room out for discussion.

http://www.thejidf.org/search/label/About

Any mention of jews in an ethnic, cultural or religious senario will bring 3rd grade insults and labels from these morons.  It is a tactic and its use is designed to deflect critical debate against injustices committed by the majority of jews in Israel and here in America. 

Israel and the slew of jewish acronyms, AIPAC, JINSA, JTA, ADL, JDL, etc know how important public opinion is.  Presently the media not controlled by them or those sympathetic to them is the internet.

http://www.giyus.org/

Netanyahu stated last year that thousands of internet “employees” would be used to improve Israels and by extension the jewish image across the world.  Well a zebra can’t change its stripes and we are left with alot of zionist internet trolls like ardee and ITW who are easily identified by their warmth and kindness to other posters.

For some reason or another, most posters don’t reveal their ethnicity or religion but the jewish posters do, why is that?  Does it give them some sort of authority on what gets posted or commented on?  I don’t think so. 

2% meet 98%.

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By ardee, November 10, 2009 at 4:00 pm Link to this comment

Ahmadinajad’s speech:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iran/2005/iran-050918-irna02.htm

As to Zionism, I believe it has accomplished its stated purpose of establishing a Jewish State, and thus is fading away.

As to my supposed attacks on people attacking Israel, sorry, I attack the policies of that nation as much as anyone here. I call bigots those who are such, I condemn lies posted as facts, lies such as an international jewish plot to do anything at all for example, or lies that 46% ( or some such) of all billionaires are jewish, an absurdity of the first order.

Now if you will excuse me I must go collect some gentile blood for our Friday rituals…Foktruther, are you coming?

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By JDmysticDJ, November 10, 2009 at 3:42 pm Link to this comment

ArDee and others

If you should read my comment regarding Ahmidinajad’s recent speech at tha U.N. please disregard.

I went to the NPR site and looked for the speech. I could not find it. I brought a speech up from the NPR site a day or so after there was all the uproar about his speech, but I’m not sure if the speech I read was the speech in question.

Never mind.

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By JDmysticDJ, November 10, 2009 at 1:52 pm Link to this comment

Ardee

It’ clear to me now that I misinterpreted your point. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe you were making the point that people who support the “reestablishment” of a Jewish State have been critical of Isareli Policies. If that was your point, it was pointless. One of my reasons for focusing on the Goldstone Report was to point out that Goldstone, a person who supports the reestablishment of a Jewish State, was critical of Israel’s recent military incursion into Palestinian Territory, to the point where he reported Isareli forces were guilty of war crimes. So obviously, I was well aware of that point. In addition, I have consistantly commented, throughout my comments that many Jews, presumably, who support the reestablishment of a Jewish State, have been critical of Israeli Government Policies. It’s clear to me that your objection to my comment stems from the mere use of the objectional word in question. I have pledged not to use that word any more. Get over it.

Will you concede that you misinterpreted my explanation of why I will no longer be using the objectionable word in question, as an attempt to portray the word in it’s worst possible light. I think not. I would agree that any further communication may be a waste of time. I apologize if my rhetoric seems laboured, but if it is, it is because you make it necessary.

If you should decide to respond to my comment, would you please provide me with one concrete example of my “Obfuscation.” When I say concrete example, I mean one that is not based on paranoia. Also, would you be so kind as to explain to me why these warrantless accusations of anti-semitism, are not obfuscation. In fact, I would like for you to explain to me why any charge of anti-semitism, whether seemingly warranted or not, is a valid response to allegations. These angry insults and charges of anti-semitism, I’ve noticed in many comments, simplify the debate, and do not actually respond to allegations. I’ll have to spend a lot of time in an attempt to refute, or verify Diedaily’s allegations of a “Kosher Tax,” because I’m certainly not getting any proof that his allegations are false on this site.

Finally, if you do decide to respond to my comment, will you please begin by explaining to me why Mr. Goldstone’s U.N. sponsored report was condemmned, and thrown into the trash can, without any investigation of his allegations.

P.S. We are all very busy, but if you’re ever bored and looking for something to do, would you please go to NPR’s website and bring up Ahmidinejahd’s recent speech to the U.N., and give me quotations from the speech, that show his speech was hateful, and full of lies, as reported by the White House and the Media. I’m not planning to defend Ahmidinejad. He is just one more of the world’s repressive leaders, but he has no monopoly on repression. Did you by any chance, read an depth report of what happened at the G-20 Conference this year? Apparently, the 1st Amendment no longer has any relevance. Ahmadinejad has made some incredibly stupid diplomatic faux pas’. Questioning the details of the holocaust was one. Stating that there were no homosexuals in Iran was another (Wow! didn’t elements of the american left go balistic over that one.) If his intent was to piss off the people of the U.S., he could have just commented on how morally decadent the U.S. has become.
My real concern is that all this irrational, fear based, and hateful propaganda directed at Iran will only lead to another horrendous foreign policy nightmare. Is Iran intending to build a nuclear weapon? If so, so what? With all of this hateful rhetoric, and all of these open threats directed at Iran, is it any wonder that they may feel they need a deterence, in order to prevent attack? If Obama and the Democrats continue on this centrist path to political suicide, does anyone doubt that the Conservatives will gain power again. Iraq on one side, Afghanistan on the other. Neocon planning?

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By DieDaily, November 10, 2009 at 5:51 am Link to this comment

Some short videos for those that don’t have the time
to read (or ability, i.e. I.T.W.)

Good documentary on Kosher Tax:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XbMmmKjM_s

Noam Chomsky weighs in on Israel tax-theft:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=94d_1188363811

Remember, the ADL spends millions on obfuscation. So
you will have to bare with thousands of sites telling
you that you are not allowed to talk about this
unless you’re an evil racist terrorist. Don’t be
daunted. You are just seeking the facts. That’s not
quite illegal yet.

Again, I can’t say it enough times, I have nothing
against Jews in general. I have Jewish friends who I
love (and who are concerned about these matters and
want them made public). I wish no one harm. I could
never be a bigot or suffer the company of one. I
truly do seek to diffuse a brewing anti-zionist
backlash that will be indiscriminate by airing these
ideas. Innocent Jews will get killed when these
truths become mainstream under the spin of the
radical Right. I do not like the radical, reactionary
Right one little bit.

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By ardee, November 10, 2009 at 5:47 am Link to this comment

In order to achieve Kosher certification, food producers must spend a bit more money on the product thus charging a fee to recoup that additional expenditure. I am not aware of that money winding up in the Israeli treasury but am open to proof thereof.

Speaking of proof, I have never seen a roll of aluminum foil claiming to be kosher. Perhaps you might show such examples therof….

As to the slimer named after one of our Founders, who undoubtedly rolls in his grave because of that association. I dont have to look under my bed for anti Semites, not when all I have to do to find one is read one of your stupidly sophomoric efforts.

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By DieDaily, November 10, 2009 at 5:23 am Link to this comment

JDmydticDJ, regarding the Kosher Tax, pretty much the
only “impartial” place you WON’T find it confirmed is
Wikipedia, unless you go to the edits page in which
case you will see why that is so. (They don’t deny it
exists…it’s semantic…it’s not exactly a “tax”
they say, hilarious, but they are technically
correct, it’s a tariff or fee, but for a hoot follow
the links to where it’s actually talked about in
wiki!!!!) Now, you will find all sorts of sites
saying that only terrorists, extremists and the KKK
could possibly believe this. That was my first clue
that it was actually true, else why all the fuss?
Since then, not very much digging was required to get
to the disturbing facts.

If you google “Kosher Tax” you will get thousands of
links. The first link of course, is the Wiki. Since
visiting the first link and then quitting is the only
manner in which “Inherit The Wind” can conduct
research, he, like many, will go “Oh, that’s a KKK
myth that only terrorist believe.” But it definitely
is not! Some of the hundreds of other links that deny
it (on that google search) are the ADL, JDL, AIPAC,
etc. disinfo sites. The actual Jewish media (i.e. for
the Jewish audience) which is often very good, and
surprisingly candid, talks about it often and freely.
Of course there are some racist sites in the mix but
they are just idiots and shouldn’t count either way.
I have noticed that the are few if any Nazi movements
that are not government (or law-center) run anyway.

When I say that some money from your average grocery
shop goes to Israel, and that some of that in turn
gets spent on weapons, that’s really true. There are
hundreds of valid links to check out, but a good
gateway page is

http://www.honestmediatoday.com/kosher_tax1.htm

Excerpt:

How much is the total cost today? While the figure is
unknown, there are other things we can tell. For
instance, according to both Star-K Kosher
certification and EBizAsiaLink, $165 billion worth of
food received Kosher certification in 2002.(9) But
does this $165 billion figure also include non-food
products such as steel and aluminum foil, which are
not actually Kosher “food” items despite the fees
that are paid and certification received?(10)
Probably not, so the figure may be much greater.
Another figure that we can look at to determine cost
is taken from an article appearing in the Detroit
News. It stated that one Kosher certification company
brought in an estimated $20 million.(11) (It is not
known whether this figure of $20 million is actual
net profits, or gross business.) You begin to
understand how much money we are talking about when
you realize, as stated at the beginning of this
article, that there are 275 such Kosher-certification
organizations in the United States, and a total of
400 worldwide.(12)

And this one is well sourced:

http://radioislam.org/judaism/kosher.htm

Don’t let the word “Islam” in the link throw you off.
I’m no more partial to being under the jack-boot of
Islam than I am to that of Zionism. The point is it’s
incredibly well sourced. And those sources are
mainstream. And often official Jewish sources. Israel
has been incredibly sneaky and dishonest about how
they get hold of American money and use it to create
war.

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By PatrickHenry, November 10, 2009 at 4:45 am Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, November 10 at 5:03 am #

The way my kids eat ketchup, I’ve bought a tank for Israel.

By ardee, November 10 at 11:53 am #

Yours and n(itw)its obsession with jew haters and antisemites is laughable.  Do you check under you beds at night?

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By ardee, November 10, 2009 at 3:53 am Link to this comment

“If indeed Goldstone’s daughter described her father as such would this not indicate a softening of that term? Her dad seemed rather critical of Israel in that report, especially for a ‘Zionist’ as you define one to be. Would not your own version of the definition be seen as carefully chosen to put it in its worst light ( thus my emboldening)?”
Your implication that Mr. Goldstone is not credible as a ‘Zionist’ (Your word not mine) because he was critical of Israel, says nothing about my, (non-existent) version of the definition , but does portray your definition, ‘In the worst possible light.’

Though I think further discourse a waste of time I will try one final time. My comments were meant, obvious I think, to show that both the use of the term “Zionist” by Jew haters and those who would see the end of the state of Israel and the words you cited by the Goldstone woman make little sense together. If Zionists are dedicated to allowing Israel free reign as some here posit then the report would obviously run counter to that assumption. All else is obfuscation and laboured rhetoric.

Oh and as far as the anti Semitic and rather incredibly idiotic Patrick Henry is concerned, I certainly hope the surgeons can remove your head from your ass successfully.

I am certain that the majority of sane persons on this forum are aware of my constant criticisms of the State of Israel as well as this cretins penchant for posting links to virulent anti Semitic websites as well as his evident reading disability ....back under that rock, though it seems crowded with outraged preceding you there….

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By JDmysticDJ, November 10, 2009 at 2:42 am Link to this comment

DieDaily

1. I believe a Jew is a person who defines himself,  or herself, as a Jew. I don’t believe the issue is difficult or complicated. Nor do I believe its up to anyone, other than a Jew, to define what a Jew is. I have no word to define a person who supports Israel’s Policies in the Middle East, but I have many words that I use to describe such a person. None of these words are flattering, and only a few of these words show any compassion for people who suffer from this sickness. “Tragically misguided” would be an example of my more compassionate discriptive words for these people.

2. I’m not using the word you use, because the word has too many different meanings, and only causes confusion when used as a descriptive term.

3. There are many different value systems and perspectives within groups of people. The word subset is too clinical, and may have a sinister connotation for some people. Stereotyping individuals according to which group they are a part of is biggotry.

4. I believe, if the “Hungry times” you describe, were to come upon us, the conflict would be political rather than racial. I would forcast a conflict similar to the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939). Minority groups would gravitate to the left, but there would be representatives of all groups on both sides of the conflict. I believe the dividing lines would be based on economic philosophy, not race. First would come a period of anarchy, followed by repression, then a gradual alignment of opposing forces. It’s also possible, even probable, that the conflict would never move beyond the repression phase.
We already live under a Corporatocracy. If our Corporate Masters, with their greed and reckless mismanagement, were to destroy the Global Economy, the “Hungry Times” you mention could actually occur. We need a good strong people’s government, to restrain, and regulate predatory Capitalism. The problem is, the Corportists “own” our government, and they own us too. I’m sure you heard that Goldman Sachs’ employees were given H1N1 vaccinations, while many “high risk” people aren’t able to get the vaccinations, because of shortages of vaccine. I swear, they must be up there in their Ivory Towers laughing at us, giving each other high fives and shouting, “In your face!”

5. Of course the term “Self-hating Jew, is spurious to the point of absolute absurdity, but they are used to getting away with absurdities.

6. I don’t see how there could be any “justification” for the obvious racism that is practiced by many in Israel, this racism is sometimes publicly expressed by Israel’s leaders. Unfortunately the area is marked by a great deal of hatred, on both sides. It is very similar to the period of westward expansion, in our own country.

7. 20-60% is a broad range, and therfore does not appear to be backed up by legitimate, quantifiable, statistics. It is clear however, that there is an inordinate concentration of wealth, among Jewish Americans.

8.The allegation you make is startling. It’s not something that I have heard, or read before, so naturally, I’m quite skeptical. What is the source of this allegation?

9. Having been an outspoken critic of war, in a time of war, I’m familiar with the variety of difficulties which might face a Jew who speaks out against Israeli Policy. I’ve heard that Jews who speak out against Israeli Policy in this country, have a far more difficult time than Jews who speak out against Israeli Policy in Israel.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 9, 2009 at 9:03 pm Link to this comment

8. When you buy some Ketchup (or thousands of foods)
which is labelled with the little circled K or
circled U (or thousands of icons)you have paid a
Jewish Kosher tax and unwittingly purchased a
cartridge which right now is being chambered in an
Israeli assault rifle. No other ethnicity of people
has placed a weapons tax on our food. Please research
this topic. When you are squeezing the Ketchup
bottle, maybe imagine that you are squeezing the
blood out of a Palestinian, for in an indirect but
real sense you quite literally may be.

****************************************************

Are you out of your f***ing mind?  All that circled U means is this food is approved as Kosher by the Orthodox Union and OK for kosher-keeping Jews to eat.  Nothing more, nothing less.

You can post this conspiracy shit and STILL claim not to hate Jews?

You must think everyone reading this is an idiot who’ll buy this garbage (and you’d be at least partially right—Hello Patrick Henry!)

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By DieDaily, November 9, 2009 at 8:00 pm Link to this comment

JDmydticDJ, see what I mean about latent
conditioning? I believe the taboo nature of the topic
itself is inherently very dangerous to Jews, whatever
“Jew” even means. Is there the slightest racial
element to it? Is it partly ideological? Is ideology
enough to make one a Jew or to stop one from being a
Jew?  How many “types of Jews” are there? Do they get
along? Do elitist financier Jews and Jew dirt farmers
see eye to eye? Are the so called Jewish elite in
fact atheistic Illuminati who in a very real sense
only masquerade as Jews and Gentiles? Hmm. What I
think I have learned so far:

1. It is really complicated and difficult to define
“Jew”, even for Jews, and even harder therefore to
talk about who is a Jew and who is not at Jew or to
what degree they are or are not if such a thing as
“degree of Jewishness” exists.

2. Zionism is not a race, and anti-Zionism does not
constitute a racism.

3. When you meet a Jew it would be racist to an
insane extreme to pre-judge that person in any way
for it. The discussions here are about subsets and
subsets of those subsets. There is no way to apply
these discussions to a particular Jew without the
details of their dealings and deeds. To attempt to do
so would be a despicable, racist act.

4. If we don’t talk all of this out openly and
without fear of being destroyed by AIPAC or the JDL
just for airing these confusing issues so that we can
get clear on them, then there is some danger of
another pogrom against the Jews being unleashed. If
we let the radical, reactionary Right-Wing get a hold
of this issue before we as centrists and liberals
have diffused the massive levels of intellectual
stigma and taboo that has been heaped on it, then the
reactionary right will be able to set it off like a
bomb. Hungry times are coming and a hungry mob will
be hungry not only for food, but for a scapegoat. Do
you want to leave this conversation exclusively to
the far right? I do not.

5. It is not self-hating for a Jew to table strongly
supported, evidential arguments that Zionism is wrong
or that Jews have been steered off course by an evil
Zionist elite. Asking factual questions and tabling
factual evidence about the holocaust portrayal and
its crass exploitation by Zionists is not “denial of
the holocaust”.

6. Israeli foreign and domestic policy is clearly and
undeniably racist, both toward Palestinians and Arabs
in general, and to the minority of Orthodox and
Traditional Jews within. This is true whether or not
there is “justification” for this behavior. They are
actually the one who is arguing as loudly as anyone
for a genetic, racial definition of Jewishness.

7. The fraction of the US population that is Jewish
is roughly 2%. The fraction of ownership of financial
institutions, media outlets, banks, mineral rights,
NGOs, lobby groups, and political offices is, say
20%-60%, which is a mysterious and worth
investigating 1000% to 3000% inflation of the numbers
one would have in an actual representation by
population democracy. It would be so at 10% or even
5%!!!

8. When you buy some Ketchup (or thousands of foods)
which is labelled with the little circled K or
circled U (or thousands of icons)you have paid a
Jewish Kosher tax and unwittingly purchased a
cartridge which right now is being chambered in an
Israeli assault rifle. No other ethnicity of people
has placed a weapons tax on our food. Please research
this topic. When you are squeezing the Ketchup
bottle, maybe imagine that you are squeezing the
blood out of a Palestinian, for in an indirect but
real sense you quite literally may be.

9. We good people of the world know for a FACT that
there is widespread resistance to all of this evil
within the Jewish community. They are targeted far
more harshly for speaking out than we are.

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By JDmysticDJ, November 9, 2009 at 5:43 pm Link to this comment

Ardee: In further response to your comment directed at me, (See comment below.)

Forgive me if I misinterpreted your earlier comment regarding “These cretins, and crazy anti-semitics.” I interpreted your comment as being an indictment of all who criticized Israeli Government Policy, and believe that Jewish Americans have an inordinate influence on U.S. Foreign Policy decisions, as they pertain to the State of Israel. However, you continued your most recent comment, (which was directed at me,) by making accusations, and attempting to portray me in the worst possible light. Quoting from that comment, you said:
    “If indeed Goldstone’s daughter described her father as such would this not indicate a softening of that term? Her dad seemed rather critical of Israel in that report, especially for a ‘Zionist’ as you define one to be. Would not your own version of the definition be seen as carefully chosen to put it in its worst light ( thus my emboldening)?”
Your implication that Mr. Goldstone is not credible as a ‘Zionist’ (Your word not mine) because he was critical of Israel, says nothing about my, (non-existent) version of the definition , but does portray your definition, ‘In the worst possible light.’
Further quoting from your comment.
    “Perhaps, deep inside, you understand yourself better than I could hope for.”
What exactly is it that you hope for? If you hope to convince me that I am an anti-semite, then you’re hopeless. If you hope to portray me as an anti-semite to others, perhaps you’ll have more luck, (with people who lack the ability to think critically).

PLEASE SEE MY COMMENT THAT PREFICES THIS COMMENT

The truth is, deep inside, I do have a degree of, what I consider, righteous anger. Deep inside I have a loathing of injustice and bullying. Especially when that bullying results in an incalulable amount of injustice and human suffering. I also loathe people whose, ideology contaminated minds, make them obstacles to achieving a modicum of peace and justice (Regardless of which side of the conflict they may be on.)

I also loathe corruption in the “Hallowed Halls” of government. Whether the following story is truth or myth, I agree with the actions, recorded in the story. Its the story of someone who, as the story goes, angrily drove the money changers from the temple. As the story goes, he was a Jew, and, as the the story goes, the first people who followed him were Jews, also, as the story goes, the people who demanded his crucifiction were Jews. I most certainly would not expect anyone to believe this story. I myself am skeptical of elements in the greater story. Consider the story a parable, if you will. Which group of Jews in this parable do you consider to be virtuous, and which group of Jews in the parable, do you believe lacked virtue, and how, do you believe, would each group in this parable, react to the current situation in the Middle East?

I’m guessing that many would consider the parable too ridiculous to even contemplate, while others will consider presenting the exercise, more evidence of anti-semitism. Oh well, and so it goes.

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By PatrickHenry, November 9, 2009 at 4:57 pm Link to this comment

By ardee, November 9 at 7:44 pm #

Comming from a boiler room JDL “toad” as yourself I will take that as a compliment.  Always glad to see those sharp witty retorts by you and your collegues.

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By ardee, November 9, 2009 at 3:44 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry, November 9 at 9:21 am #

“Could be jewish based on their names”.

Engaged in a little racial profiling are we?

Leave it to the JDL bookends to determine the jewishness of someone based on their name.

It simply must be said…You are indeed an imbecile. Your lies, half truths, distortions all single you out and mark you well.

Your “facts” are not, your position reeks, and you yourself are a clown.

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By JDmysticDJ, November 9, 2009 at 1:29 pm Link to this comment

Ardee

You used a quotation from my most recent comment, highlighting in bold, the portion of the quotation that you found objectionable. My intent in that portion of the quotation, was to show that the word in question is subject to a kind of Orwellian misunderstanding, and may well cause confusion in rational debate. I included several possible interpretations of the word in question, in order to validate my contention. In no way did I endorse any of the possible definitions of the word, or give my definition of the word. In fact, the last sentence of that quotation (Not highlighted in bold) stated that I will no longer be using the word, in order to avoid possible misunderstandings.

Quoting from your comment, “If indeed Goldstone’s daughter described her father as such would that not indicate a softening of the term.” “If indeed…...” is a veiled attempt to question the validity of the news report in question, and/or the credibility of the person citing that report. I have seen no news report that disputes her use of that “Term” in describing her father. Disputing the report would be a simple matter of asking her if she actually used that “Term.” “....Would this not indicate a softening of the term.” Exactly, her using the “term” in any context other than the “softer context” defies logic. Also if she had used the “term” intending a ‘harder context’, of the “Term,” It would only have reinforced the lack of bias in Mr. Goldstone’s Report. Incidentally, the conclusion of Mr. Goldstone’s Report was that both sides in the conflict should investigate the (documented) allegations of war crimes in the Goldstone Report, and, depending on the conclusions of the investigations, take action to prevent future incidences of war crimes. The conclusions of Mr. Goldstone’s Report were immediately rejected, and condemned by Israel, and the United States House of Representatives, without any serious investigation of the allegations. Palestinians, on their part, also criticized the report.

Also, regarding the following quotation from your comment, “Her dad seemed rather critical of Israel in that report, especially for a ‘Zionist’ as you define one to be. Would not your own version of the definition be seen as carefully chosen to put it in its worst light ( thus my emboldening)?” Again, I refrain from defining the word in question. I would be happy to accept the ‘softer’ definition of the word in question, if it were accepted uniformly, and used in that context by everyone, thereby eliminating misunderstanding and demogoguery, but I fear that if I were to use the word in its ‘softer’ context, I would still be accused of having an ulterior motive, and of being an anti-semite, by implication, or outright accusation. These accustions of anti-semitism are very useful. Not only do they cast aspersions on critics of Iraeli Government Policies, but they also re-focus the debate, away from the real issues being debated. Some classify Jimmy Carter, and anyone else opposed to Israeli Government Policies as being anti-semitic. Jews opposed to Israeli Government Policies are classified, by some, as being self-hating Jews.
Adhominem attacks are generally used against inviduals during debate, when the attacker is unable to rebut a point of debate using logic and evidence. Adhominem attack used as a National Policy is dangerous, and smacks of paranoia, or worse.

The political movement, described by the word in question, is defined by my Random House Dictionary as: “A worldwide Jewish movement that resulted in the reestablishment and development of the State of Irael.” Only the most rabid Jew haters, would deny the right of Jews to a State of Israel. However, if you should look at a 1940’s map of the Middle East, you should ask yourself, at who’s expense this State was “reestablished.” Also ask yourself if this “Reestablisment” is complete, or if it is intended to encompass all of what was Formerly Palestine.

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By Folktruther, November 9, 2009 at 1:01 pm Link to this comment

No, Patrickhenry has a perfectly valid point.  If the article he gave is right, and that half the billionaires are Jews, then Petras’s theory of the ‘Zionist Power Configuration” gains crucial evidence.  If it is a much smaller fraction, which I assumed, than zionissts are controlled by a non-Jewish ruling class.

I’d count them myself but I don’t know who is Jewish or not.  I didn’t know Polanski was Jewish, for example, or at least was born Jewish.  What has to be done is for some impartial committee, say, to go through the list of billionaires, who agree on who is or isn’t a Jew, (not as easy as it would seem since historically many Jewish families converted to Christianity and kept jewish traditions.)  and then count them.

The matter can be settled then in the usual way that people settle all important questions: by yelling and screaming, jumping up and down, and holding one’s breather until one turns blue.  (I am not a fan of the idea of Western Rationalism.)  Here is an empirical, or at least semi-empirical, question   that provides evidence between the two theories:  Do neozionists, or Jews, control the American power structure, or does the power sstructure control the neozionists.

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By PatrickHenry, November 9, 2009 at 5:21 am Link to this comment

“Could be jewish based on their names”.

Engaged in a little racial profiling are we?

Leave it to the JDL bookends to determine the jewishness of someone based on their name.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 9, 2009 at 5:00 am Link to this comment

ardee, November 9 at 8:36 am #

I think allowing the comments of our resident anti Semite to pass along with the stench of his presence is probably a great idea.

But, since FT asked, seemingly unable or unwilling to do his own research on the subject(?):

There are 360 American billionaires, heres a list..Let me count the Jews, no Ill leave that to the disordered mind who seems to care

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Americans_by_net_worth

*************************************************

Gee, just for fun I counted about 18 who could be Jewish based on their names out of the first 202.  Some are definite, like Michael Miliken, others are only guesses.  And I didn’t get to the FIRST until I got down to about the 15th or 20th on the list.

Notice how there was all this hoopla about Madoff being a Jew, but NONE about this Indian guy just arrested for nearly as big a swindle—he stole multi-billions by insider trading.  But there’s no call to investigate Indians or worries by the bigots that we are being taken over by the Sub-Continent….. Makes you wonder about the posters here who see “Zionist” (code for Jewish) conspiracies everywhere.

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By ardee, November 9, 2009 at 4:36 am Link to this comment

I think allowing the comments of our resident anti Semite to pass along with the stench of his presence is probably a great idea.

But, since FT asked, seemingly unable or unwilling to do his own research on the subject(?):

There are 360 American billionaires, heres a list..Let me count the Jews, no Ill leave that to the disordered mind who seems to care

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Americans_by_net_worth

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By thegrowlingwolf, November 9, 2009 at 2:10 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Oh how we atheists pray that Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists…would just disappear from the earth—human beings are all animals (mammals) not divine beings. To assume we are divine beings leads only to Chaos because by assuming we are divine beings we condemn nature and instincts and evolution as being EVIL because each of these denies that human beings are SPECIAL divinely created supernatural beings.  Wallow in your nonsense like a pig enjoys bathing in slop. Destroying the earth’s atmosphere and turning our planet into a desert won’t hurt our planet one damn bit.  As soon as human beings are extinct, nature will revert back to its natural state: the Earth as our only paradise.

thegrowlingwolf

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By Folktruther, November 8, 2009 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment

Good lord, PatrickHenry, all those rich people are Jewish?

Inherit, why don’t you stop pissing and moaning and check out Patricks link.  Try to be objective, as best you can.  If half the billionaires are Jews, and there is so many other rich Jews, then the anti-semite notion that Jews control the Amerian power system gains cogency.  And, indeed, US policy may then support Israel against the interests not only of the American people, but also the American power system.

there’s a FACTUAL question involved here, and I realize these are not your forte.  But somebody should check this out, are you are not doing anything except calling everbody else liars.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 8, 2009 at 4:10 pm Link to this comment

The first is fraom Zionist lemmings like Inherit who conceive effective anti-Israeli opposition anti-semitic.

*******************************************************

Are you genetically incapable of telling the truth about me, folkliar?  Are you genetically incapable of NOT posting blatant lies about me?

Do you have ANY sense of shame about your repeated deliberate lies?  Or are you one of those “end justifies ANY means” types?

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By PatrickHenry, November 8, 2009 at 2:26 pm Link to this comment

Good for jewish billionares but 48% is hardly a fraction. 

http://www.topix.com/forum/afam/TCEL6H6L79C279EVA

Anyone with a net worth over 200 million needs to be taxed heavily and while they are at it take the cap off social security, our system needs it.  It was by others labor that billionares became billionares.

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By Folktruther, November 8, 2009 at 12:33 pm Link to this comment

The mainstream conceptual language conveying the mainstream truth has evolved historically biased in favor of power rather than the people ruled by power.  It is complicated and obscure, and necessary abstractions do not exist at all that let’s us discuss idoelogical subjects in a clear and simple way.

this is especially so in relation to ‘anti-zionism’ and ‘anti-semitism.’  Opposttiion to Israeli oppression one one hand, anti-zionism,  and to Jews as a peopleon the other, anti-semitism,  are systematically confused from two sources.  The first is fraom Zionist lemmings like Inherit who conceive effective anti-Israeli opposition anti-semitic.  The second is from the genuine anti-semitism inherited in the culture historically from the Christian religion.  It is currently embraced by White racists who attack Isarel partially as a guise for attacking Jews.

I therefore have used a new term to denote anti-Israeli oppression, namely, “neozionism.”  this is necessary because zionism as Jewish nationalism, which I also oppose, is very different from the organized brutality of Israel.  Chomsky, for example, was raised as a bio-national zionist and is a member of “Zionists for Peace” whoever they are. He is, or was, genuinely in favor of a two-state solution, the obvious historical solution, currently forclosed by the war criminals currently ruling Israel who are supported by Obama and both US parties.

Jewish nationalism, zionism, in itself is no worse than Iraish nationalism or that of any small country. But neozionist, which is often associated in the US with neoliberalism, favors the destruction of Palaestine, war with the Arab nations, and a policy of racism and brutality.  It is supported fanatically by Jewish and Christian neozionists and has a religous basis and religious presuppositions.  It is a form of ziofascism, another term I have had to use.

I hope this is of some use in disintangling anti-semitism from anti-zionism.  I do agree with Inherit that money rules the US, not Jews, and although Jewish billionaires, a fraction of the total US billionairs, often play a dispicable role in the US power system, the Aipac, etc power system is used by the plutocracy that rules the US, and is not ruled by them.  Althouagh it can help implement policies against the intereests not only of the Amerian people, but against the interests of American power.

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By Jerry Piro, November 8, 2009 at 11:10 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

My wife and I campaigned for the most honorable George McGovern. What a different world this would be if he won the election!
  Thank you so very much for letting people know what a great Liberal Statesman and human being he is.

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By ardee, November 8, 2009 at 6:05 am Link to this comment

JDmydticDJ, November 8 at 1:03 am

Regarding my use of the word Zionist, I was unaware that the word no longer had any relevance, especially since it was recently reported that The Goldstone Report’s Author’s daughter recently referred to her father as a Zionist. One has to be careful when using words. Sometimes a word will have many meanings, meanings which depend on the intent of the the person who uses the word, and the person who interprets the word. Some people use the word Zionist according to your definition, while others use the word to descibe a person who believes in a greater Israel, with no room for a Palestinian State, while still others give the word an even more sinister interpretation. I guess I’ll stop using the word.

If indeed Goldstone’s daughter described her father as such would this not indicate a softening of that term? Her dad seemed rather critical of Israel in that report, especially for a ‘Zionist’ as you define one to be. Would not your own version of the definition be seen as carefully chosen to put it in its worst light ( thus my emboldening)?

PS, I mentioned you not at all, I gave no names in fact. Perhaps, deep inside, you understand yourself better than I could hope for.

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By JDmysticDJ, November 7, 2009 at 9:37 pm Link to this comment

Wall Street recently announced it will be awarding 29 Billion dollars in bonuses.

“A Billion here, a Billion there, after a while it amounts to something”

During the Great Depression there were a lot of banks being robbed.

This time the banks are robbing us.

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By JDmysticDJ, November 7, 2009 at 9:03 pm Link to this comment

Ardee

I would never read or reference the books you mentioned. I have read more than my fair share of books regarding current events, recent history, and foreign policy. I know the difference between an anti-semitic screed and an authentic work of academia.  I will suggest two authors for you though, you might want to sample the writings of Noam Chomski and Edward Said. Both men have written extensively about the conflict in the Middle East. I would recommend Noam Chomski. He is an M.I.T. Professor and a pulitzer prize winner. He’s also a Jew. I get my news from the Main Stream Media, Amy Goodman’s Democracy Now, The Nation Magazine, other publications, and what I consider reputable left wing websites, such as truthdig.

It seems clear to me that my dining room table would concede that i’m not a cretin and a crazy anti-semite before you would, so I’ll just ignore your angry insults.

Regarding my use of the word Zionist, I was unaware that the word no longer had any relevance, especially since it was recently reported that The Goldstone Report’s Author’s daughter recently referred to her father as a Zionist. One has to be careful when using words. Sometimes a word will have many meanings, meanings which depend on the intent of the the person who uses the word, and the person who interprets the word. Some people use the word Zionist according to your definition, while others use the word to descibe a person who believes in a greater Israel, with no room for a Palestinian State, while still others give the word an even more sinister interpretation. I guess I’ll stop using the word.

Nothing I’ve said in any of my comments was invented by me. Everything I’ve said in my comments comes from credible news sources, and glaring facts, that should be obvious to any rational person, who is not suffering from a serious case of denial or indifference.

Your comment was an angry one, but I’m wondering which one of us has a legitimate right to be angry. I’ll be thinking of you, the next time I see a news report about Israel inflicting collective pumishment and war crimes against a helpless Palestinian populace.

Peace, JDmysticDJ

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By ardee, November 7, 2009 at 3:56 pm Link to this comment

I cant wait for these cretins to pull out the “Twelve Rabbis who rule the world, or that Russian masterpiece ,The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Of course they stand amazed at being called anti Semitic, after all they don’t really hate Jews, no , just see that Jews rule the world and they resent it…Not crazy, honestly.

From the link supplied:

Definition of Zionism:

  an organization of Jews whose goal is to create a nation for Jews.

Thus, considering that Israel is already in existence, Zionism must perforce be dead, having achieved its goals. Of course not, not when the term is so useful to use as propaganda…

Personally, as Presbyterians rule this nation, the major banking institutions and are the vast majority sitting on the boards of fortune five hundred companies one wonders why they dont invent shit about them…..

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By DieDaily, November 7, 2009 at 3:21 pm Link to this comment

I so agree that being a bigot is despicable, and I
would never dream of being one. But attempting to
silence any exchange of facts with aspersions of
racism is called “playing the race card”. Patrick
Henry, perhaps JDmydticDJ will follow that link and
see the facts for himself.

As for Inherit The Wind, I fear there is little hope
for for the time being. He’s certain that calling
someone Jewish is a racist comment. How that could be
so is beyond me, but perhaps he regards “Jewish” as a
pejorative. I certainly do not. Quite the contrary.
Now, when a powerful person pursues genocidal Zionist
agendas time after time and goes to great lengths to
CONCEAL their Jewish roots and ties, I find that
suspicious and curious. Contrary to what you are
forced to imagine, rather than investigate the facts
for yourself, is that it must be racist to talk about
these facts. But how could that be? Please explain. I
see a huge backlash brewing against Jews in general
and it I am afraid for the 99% of them that ARE NOT
participating in these crimes. This topic needs to be
fully aired out if another pogrom is to be avoided.

I was raised a liberal humanist (thank goodness) and
my first exposure to these facts was literally
painful. I too rejected out of hand any exploration
of this subject as the work of demented hate-mongers.
But I am also a scientist. In that latter capacity
(i.e. knowing that cherry picking facts is pure evil)
I was forced to deeply research these ideas and was
shocked to the core to find that Jewish culture had
been hijacked by extremely evil people who’s aims do
not in any way reflect badly upon the rest of the
Jews (i.e. 99% as I keep saying) or their proud
heritage. I was equally deeply gratified to see that
countless Jews are standing up against them now.

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By PatrickHenry, November 7, 2009 at 12:09 pm Link to this comment

International banking rules the markets.

http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_Rothschild.htm

“The greatest trick the devil ever did was to convince man he didn’t exist”.

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By JDmysticDJ, November 7, 2009 at 10:01 am Link to this comment

Inheret The Wind

Identifying Kerry and Pelosi as Jews, because of their ancestary or associations, is clearly bigotry.
Just as branding Obama a Moslem, because of his limited Moslem background is bigotry. Initially, I saw Obama’s limited background with the Moslem faith as a positive, rather than a negative. I thought it would give him credibility, and a unique perspective regarding the conflicts in the Middle East and Central Asia. In my appraisal, his limited Moslem background has had little impact on U.S. Foreign Policy. Obama has commented publicly, and for the record, regarding The United States of America’s long history of, and continued support, of Israel.

Being a Jew has to do with religious beliefs. Being a Zionist has to do with political beliefs specifically related to Israel. Its not necessary to be of semitic ancestary, in order to be a Jew. Its also not necessary to be a Jew, in order to be a Zionist.

Being a bigot is despicable. One might say that branding people bigots, because they disagree with you, or challenge your beliefs, is also despicable.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 7, 2009 at 7:25 am Link to this comment

Die Daily:

You are full of shit. 

There’s been, as it is called in the financial industry, the “Irish Mafia” running most of the Wall Street for the last 30 years or more.  As anyone on The Street and they’ll tell you that.

As for Mr. Kerry—he is Catholic and has been all his life.  Calling him a Jew is flat out bigotry—his father’s parents converted to Catholicism before Kerry’s FATHER was born, who was raised Catholic. His mother was a Forbes and a Winthrop (going back to the Mayflower) So how do you figure he’s a Jew?

And Pelosi? She was born Nancy D’Alesandro to Thomas and Annunciata D’Alesandro…Italian on both sides—and Roman Catholic.  Not a Jew.

Where do you bigots dig up this shit?

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By JDmysticDJ, November 7, 2009 at 1:53 am Link to this comment

Inherit the wind

Who are you addressing? I’m guessing that you are addressing me. If so, please refer to me as JDmysticDJ. It was the name I used as a radio broadcaster. I’m fond of it. It has sentimental value to me. If that is uncomfortable for you, you can address me using my real name. My real name is, Chronicler of Irgun Terrorism.

Regarding George McGovern “running a Bed and Breakfast into the ground,” you’ve made a good point there. All Richard Nixon did was to run three Indo-Chinese Countries, and his own Preidency into the ground.

Regarding his enemies list, it was quite extensive. It included many people in the U.S and millions in Indo-China. He actually killed many of his enemies. Did you know that? Oh, incidentally, Jews were on his enemies list too. He told the Rev. Billy Graham that there were far too many Jews in the State Department.

I recently read a nice little letter in the Jerusalem Post. It was titled “Making a Killing on Wall Street” It was about some teenagers, Hassidic Habad-Niks, who went from Brokerage House to Brokerage House, to say prayers with the employees.

I also read an article that reffered to Paulson as one of three Jews who were among the top ten most powerful people on Wall Street. The other two were Bernake, and the head of Goldman Sachs. Geithner didn’t make the list.

This has been very tedious, my computer is running very….......very….......very….......slow, and I truly don’t care all that much about this stuff. You put me in a position where I felt it necessary to respond to your comment. Responding can be tedious, especially when the realities of the response make one vulnerable to spurious attack.

My real concern pertains to the cruel, unjust, and   yes- horrific policies of the the Israeli Government, as they relate to Palestinians, Lebonese, and others in the Middle East. I’m also concerned about the strange, singular, and seemingly inexplicable U.S foreign policy actions regarding the Israeli Palestinian conflict, and what is the reason for those inexplicable foreign policy actions.

Peace, JDmysticDJ

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By DieDaily, November 6, 2009 at 10:10 pm Link to this comment

Inherit the Wind, I regret that you are so deeply,
deeply misinformed on these matters. Do John Kerry,
Nancy Polosi, or Wesley Clarke sound like Jewish
names? No they don’t, but yet…

Now, I wonder why their names don’t sound Jewish?
Hmmmm, such a difficult mystery! How could someone
with a non-Jewish sounding name possibly be Jewish?
Gosh, I wonder.

Furthermore, most of the institutions and people you
refer to are actually…you guessed it…controlled
by Jews. Not religious Jews, mind you. Not moral
ones, mind you. Just a tiny little subset of that
much maligned “race” that are responsibly for all of
the malignancy. Please do a little research. Reality
can’t always be relied upon to conform with our best
wishes.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 6, 2009 at 9:40 pm Link to this comment

BTW,

I’ve always liked McGovern, a genuine WWII hero and a brave man.  I think he’s a smart man and a brilliant analyst.  I’ve even heard him speak and enjoyed it immensely.

But, in retrospect, since the guy couldn’t even run a bread and breakfast successfully (literally—he ran one into the ground) I wonder how the hell he could have managed the US Government bureaucracy…but at least he wouldn’t have had an “enemies list”.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 6, 2009 at 9:36 pm Link to this comment

Jimmy, the whatever:

If you ACTUALLY went down the list of CEOs, Heads of Trading, traders, analysts, etc of the Wall Street firms and LOOKED at the names you would find 5-10 Irish-sounding names for every Jewish-sounding one—if not more.  Even some with Jewish sounding names (like Lehman Bros) were not.  In fact there was only ONE Jewish-dominated firm over the last century—I think it was Salomon Bros, (until it became Salomon Smith Barney ), but I’m not sure. NONE of the others were dominated by Jews.

For example: the BIGGEST and most influential is Goldman, Sachs.  Does “Paulsen” strike you as a Jewish-sounding name?  How about the CEO he drove out, “Corzine”?

Anyone who knows ANYTHING about Wall Street knows that Jews do not even come anywhere CLOSE to running it.  For every Geithner, there are a dozen Paulsens.

But “Jewish financiers” just has rolled off the tongue since long before Shakespeare created Shylock, or Marlow created “The Jew of Malta”.

It’s not that hard to find out who the brokers and traders and investment bankers and investment analysts are—every major, mid-size and minor brokerage firm has ‘em on their web site, along with their management teams.

You think Bank of America is run by Jews?  No. It was ORIGINALLY founded by an Italian immigrant in San Francisco, but a few years ago was swallowed by NCNB (which then took the BOA name) and is now run by the good ole boys in Charlotte, North Carolina.

“Morgan” as in Morgan Guaranty, or JP Morgan Chase, or Morgan Securities—the most powerful bank in the world at one time, founded by J. Pierpont Morgan…not very Jewish-sounding, is it?

Stop believing the lies.

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By ardee, November 6, 2009 at 5:45 am Link to this comment

It seems worthy of note that , of the nine comments following that article, all are emphatically critical of the attemtps to silence that report.

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By PatrickHenry, November 6, 2009 at 4:14 am Link to this comment

Truth should never fear inspection.

Look at the veiled threats Goldstone has recieved from the ADL (JDL).

http://alethonews.blogspot.com/2009/11/adl-demands-that-goldstone-repudiate.html

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By DieDaily, November 5, 2009 at 9:40 pm Link to this comment

JDmydticDJ, I so agree. Being branded as an
“anti-Semite” (as you point out, this means
anti-Palestinian more than anything else since a
small minority of Jews are even Semitic and virtually
all Palestinians are Semitic) is an occupational
hazard when you even broach this subject, regardless
of how non-racist and moderate you are. But facts
should never be taboo. There has been so much
conditioning and so much lying that the entire topic
was for decades completely taboo in gentle company.
But that is changing.

People are becoming aware of the nastiness of AIPAC
and the Mossad and are getting sick of, for instance,
things like the Kosher tax. An increasing number of
people are aware of the fact that there are dozens of
products in their larders (such as Heinz Ketchup)
with a circled K, a circled U or one of over 1000
other symbols, that indicate that portion of that
sale has gone to Israel. There is no other race or
culture in the US that can do this sort of thing to
us with impunity. There are no others that comprise
2% of the population while controlling over half of
the wealth, over 90% of the media, and at least two
thirds of the real power positions in our Government.
In terms of foreign policy, what other state has been
allowed to continually drag us through the muck while
conferring upon us no advantage or prestige or
regional good will at all? These are just facts, not
moral judgments. Expressing these facts does not make
you a conservative or a liberal or anything else. I
don’t like the fact that when I buy some Ketchup I’m
putting a cartridge in an Israeli rifle. It really
bothers me. But the trend is that many others are
catching on to this parasitism and expressing
themselves despite the stigma and inevitable labellings that ensue.

I’ll tell you what is ALWAYS kosher in my books. The
bald truth. And the bald truth is that everyone is
starting to talk about these things, left right and
center. I was woken up to these facts not by racists
(who disgust me utterly, by the way) but by Jews.
Very brave Jews, many of whom have been killed for
their statements already and many more of whom will
be. The tragic thing is that racism (instead of anti-
Zionism which is entirely non-racist) against the
Jews is the next wave of blind and stupid hatred
which will be unleashed by the power elite in order
to divide us and vilify us. That’s why, JDmydticDJ,
people like you are so very valuable. You don’t
strike me as racist in the slightest for being aware
of the facts of the matter and braving the insults
without allowing yourself to be baited or become
vitriolic in response. You seem fully aware that
there is a center line here which stops miles short
of racism and is merely accurate and scientific.

How exactly is the fact that 2% of us have all this
power and yet our media, even and especially our
leftward alternative media (which I do like in so
many other ways) still participates in promulgating
the illusion that we are a representative democracy.
This is a scientific question. It deserves air time.
It won’t go away. If the left media fails to give it
a fair airing then they are merely playing into hands
of the racist extremists when the could instead have
dissipated the pent up pressure that all this stigma
and taboo has created for so long. I do understand
that broaching this topic could cost them followers
since it’s a bit like stepping on a land mine due to
the latent conditioning involved. But scientists and
indeed all rational people are supposed to be above
pandering to taboo for the sake of popularity. I
guess it will be a long process. I hope we have
enough time. If the left media grew a pair, Israel
could perhaps be saved.

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By JDmysticDJ, November 5, 2009 at 5:12 pm Link to this comment

dihey

In the 1972 Pesidential election, the people of the United States had a choice between war and peace. A vote for Eugene McGovern and peace, or a vote for that murderous criminal freak Richard Nixon and war.
Since you disparraged McGovern by calling him a quitter, and inferred that his oppinion was irrellevant, I guessed that your preference would have been for that murderous criminal freak Richard Nixon. Was I wrong? Were you just having a bad day? Did you decide to disparrage Eugene McGovern, the great American Statesman, because you were bored? Is it that you disagree with what he had to say? If so, why didn’t you offer some sort of rational, fact based rebuttal, rather than attacking his character.

Yes dihey, I did disparrage the character of that murderous criminal freak Richard Nixon. However, to back up my contention I have: The Pentagon Papers, thousands of hours of white house tapes, an illegal breakin to the Democratic Party Headquarters at the Watergate Hotel, another illegal burglary of a psychiatrists office, illegal slush funds, his “Mad Man Theory of War” (Drop so many bombs that your enemy will think you are crazy, and surrender) his long history of political “Dirty Tricks” (Why do you think they affectionately called him “Tricky Dick”). I could go on and on, but let me just conclude by saying that you called Eugene McGovern a quitter, but it was Richard Nixon who quit the the Presidency of the United States, in order to avoid being impeached. Also, he needed to be pardoned for his criminal acts by his successor, his Vice President, Jerry Ford. (Ford was his second Vice President, his first Vice President was languishing in prison for his criminal acts). He claimed that he quit for the good of the nation, but I believe, he quit to save his ass.

Finally, I’ve made my position clear in previous comments. I’m opposed to Israel’s Murderous Policies in the Middle East, and I’m opposed to Jews in America using their wealth and influence to dictate U.S. Foreign Policy. I’m also very much in favor of Jews who have spoken out against Israel’s cruel and Murderous Policies. As I’ve mentioned in another comment, if I was an anti-semite, in todays world, I would be opposed to Palestinians. (Palestinians are semites too, and victims of a hidden anti-semitism.) Your guess that I am an anti-semite is dead wrong, and only shows your pettiness.

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By Alan MacDonald, November 5, 2009 at 4:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Obama’s crucial decisions on Afghanistan—- and ‘Beyond Afghanistan’—- on EMPIRE.

The media talk is about the crucial decision that Obama faces in Afghanistan. 

While the speculation regarding Obama’s decision about expanding the Afghanistan War—- the phony ‘Global War on Terrorism’, into a likely war across Central Asia—- is on everyone’s mind, Obama has a multiplicity of other policy decisions.

Has any leader ever had such a problem in dealing with critical domestic issues that mean so much to him, yet had such risks to his plans from a foreign war he would rather not speak about? 

Like Obama, Rev. Martin Luther King was confronted with a similar decision about whether to speak-out against the imperialist war, that was grinding up the working-class sons of both black and white Americans, or to continue focusing on the problem of racism.

Initially, Rev. King focused on the racial battle at home, and would not be detoured by addressing the multiple issues that would inevitably spring from taking-on the crimes of imperialist foreign war, domestic racism, and the ‘class-warfare’ that linked these crimes of Empire.

On April 4th, 1967, at Riverside Church, Dr. King decided that it was “A Time to Break Silence” not only about Vietnam, but Beyond Vietnam, and to speak truth about the nature of Empire and the class-war that Empire always uses to maintain its unfair, unjust, and un-democratic control both ‘abroad’ and ‘at home’.

Hopefully, Obama will reach the same monumental decision as Dr. King – and even more hopefully, average Americans of all colors will respond to a seminal ‘outing’ of Empire by recognizing their common humanity and their common ‘public interest’ in democracy, and by treating a 21st century leader against Empire differently than Dr. King.

I hope that Obama uses his time to re-read King’s Riverside speech:

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkatimetobreaksilence.htm

King noted, “The war in Vietnam is but a symptom of a far deeper malady within the American spirit”

King continued:

“It is with such activity in mind that the words of the late John F. Kennedy come back to haunt us. Five years ago he said, “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.” Increasingly, this is the role our nation has taken, the role of those who make peaceful revolution impossible by refusing to give up the privileges and the pleasures that come from the immense profits of overseas investments.  ....  When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights, are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, extreme materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered.”

Finally, King concludes with, “If we will make the right choice, we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our world into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood.”

I hope that Obama, in preparing to make his choice, recognizes that the multiplicity of those “jangling discords of our world”, those pressing problems ‘abroad’ and ‘at home’ are but the uniform fingerprints of one thing——EMPIRE.

I hope that Obama learns this lesson that Rev. King learned about the connected nature of the ‘Empire problem’ from Hannah Arendt, when she warned, “Empire abroad (always) entails tyranny at home”.

I hope that Obama recognizes that those “giant triplets of racism, extreme materialism, and militarism” are really the shadow of EMPIRE—- even if it is presented under the veil of sweet sounding speeches and through the facade of ‘Vichy’ democracy.

I can only hope that Obama recognizes that what makes peaceful revolution impossible is EMPIRE, and that he soon shares this terrible truth with the American people—- that the Empire is posing as us, the U.S.

Alan MacDonald
Sanford, Maine:

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By dihey, November 5, 2009 at 3:19 pm Link to this comment

JDmydticDJ: you guessed that I prefer the policies of that murderous criminal freak Richard Nixon. Now it is my turn to guess that you are an anti-Semite.

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By ardee, November 5, 2009 at 1:44 pm Link to this comment

McGovern has submitted to a future of Al Qaida
rule in Afghanistan even though numerous attacks culminating in the destruction of the WTC demonstrated the fallacy of this state of denial.

Only Marshall would equivocate pulling out of Afghanistan with AlQaeda running that nation. Those who live in this world understand that when the Taliban ran Afghanistan there was much opposition to their strict Islamist rule. Further AlQaeda was a guest in that nation, harbored according to Islamic rules of hospitality by the Taliban.

This is one good reason that Marshall’s posts are indeed poisonous.

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By JDmysticDJ, November 5, 2009 at 10:26 am Link to this comment

DieDaily

Thank you for supplying the source that verifies the “fact.” You have saved me from having to spend valuable time, on this antiquated, sick, computer I’m using.

Comment

Are the “Ordinary working people who are Jews” and defend Israeli policy evil? No more so than the vast majority of ordinary working people who were Germans, and blindly followed Adolph Hitler. One might say that they lack(ed) moral and political sophistication, as a result of living in a spiritual vacuum. A spiritual vacuum that causes them to be effectively indifferent to the suffering of Palestinian men, women, children, and the suffering of thousands of Lebonese people who were the victims of “Collective Punishment.”
Of course no rational person would equate the magnitude of the horrors of the holocaust, with the magnitude of horrors in the middle east, but the mind set of those who justified, and perpetrated those horrors was, and is, the same. Anyone who thinks the word horror is too extreme, is displaying the previously mentioned indifference. I believe the hysterical cries of children who have been bombed, burned, and orphaned, is horror. I believe institutionalized torture is horror.
There is a great deal of speculation, and debate regarding the causes of the past, present, and future wars in the Middle East, and Western Asia. Assigning blame for these wars to any one religion, ethnic group, or political belief, would be irrational, but I believe that much of the blame can be directly attributed to Israeli Government Policies, and the unqualified support of these policies given to Israel by our government.
So the question remains. How much does Jewish economic influence on our corrupted government contribute to the continued madness?
We need to remove the power and influence of money on our political systems. We have been so barraged by corruption and scandal in our political lives, that we now seem to accept these abuses as being the norm. The result has been a general apathy and a breakdown to the adherence to moral precepts. Many in our society scoff at moral principles, and consider these principles as subject only to fools. So called pragmatists who embrace Neocon Foreign Policy objectives of Empire. Machiavellians who consider moral precepts irrellevant. We elect leaders who publicly state, with a snicker “Sometimes money trumps peace.”
Intellectuals debate as to what extent our nation has become, or is moving towards Fascism. Achieving Fascism is easy. All that’s required is that people do, and say, nothing. A people that have lost their sense of moral precepts, and abhorance of injustice, make Fascism inevitable.

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By Glen Wayne, November 5, 2009 at 9:14 am Link to this comment

This is an explanation of my weird poem.


Swine flu renamed H1 N1 and newspeak hearken to 1984 and the ease with
which language can be framed to the prevailing winds of those who prevail in
the mass media.
This poem’s intent was a play on the metaphor of politicians at the trough and
the influence of big money especially unaccountable corporations or the ‘label
it Inc’ who use justifications like the ‘Ayn Rand philosophy and book of “The
virtue of selfishness” without realizing That Ayn’s own monopolistic thinking
mirrored the political system she was railing against.

‘Das ist streng verboten’ or that is not allowed followed by an octave or a
period of eight from the periodic table with the loop are symbolic of history
repeating itself [and the possibility of non-entities with consciousness( Goedel
Escher Bach)].
The pink brings to mind the anti war movement as well as the conflict between
the Master’s of Ease and their need to please.
Though some feminists rally around Ayn perhaps her legitimacy is sinking.

‘Say it ain’t so President O’ is a play on the small boy baseball fan who may
have said ‘Say it ain’t so Joe’ that he didn’t throw the game.

H-one, H-two; N-one, H-two        

Do you play the oboe?
or say hautboy or Oh boy?
Do you do double reed like the newspeak creed?
without a mouthpiece for those not in need.

Please penetrate me pastorally with slender notes and pink verboten.
Leave out the strings of; ‘Das ist streng verboten!’ Dis Nazi mit noten.
Play an octave a period of not with eight strikes and you loop,
for the Master’s of loot.. ‘Alles ist verrotten’ not only mit da cheese.

Please sneeze in the sleeves for the Masters of ease.
Kachoo, Ka ching, Ka schmuck, Ka schmiel..or… Zieg Heil ...for another pile.
Label it Inc.
Ann Rand at the sink,
the oink that ain’t pink;
H 1 for the squeeler
and H 2… say O for the healer.

Say is that so President O?

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By surfnow, November 5, 2009 at 7:37 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

With all due respect to George McGovern ( he is of course as absolutely right about Afghanistan as he was about Vietnam) I do not believe the economy is going to turn around- and we better get used to double digit unemployment for now on. No matter what he does or doesn’t do, Obama is going to be a one term president- and Sarah Palin will be next in the White House. It all comes down to the information controlled by the mainstream media- which last time I checked was still almost totally controlled by conservative corporations - that are not exactly known for progressive ideals.

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By DieDaily, November 5, 2009 at 2:31 am Link to this comment

JDmydticDJ, the source you seek was probably Vanity
Fair. It is referred to in many other articles
(hundreds) like this one in the Jerusalem Post

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?
cid=1191257286817&pagename=JPArticle/ShowFull

The media, on the other hand, is more like 95%
controlled by “Jews”.

But lets be extremely clear about this. Anyone who
thinks this reflects upon the ordinary working person
who is Jewish, or virtually any Sephardic or
practicing Jew, is crazy or ignorant. This is the
great danger facing Jews right now. A very few atheist/occultist Zionists masquerading as the voice
of Jews is at work here. Jews in general are the
victims of, and not the perpetrators, of these
crimes. These people are the prime racists of the
planet. To assume that Jews in general are evil would
be to fall for one of their oldest tricks.

It’s an incredibly complex and disturbing topic, but
one we all need to talk about now. I am deeply
gratified by the increasing number of Jews who are
spearheading the effort to expose this tiny but
extraordinarily powerful subset of their “race”, such
as it is. In their shoes I too would be terrified of
guilt by association with these monsters, and of the
coming pogrom against “their own” that seems to be in
their agenda. I beg that everyone interested in this
topic exercise great care in their studies. It is
simply not true that a single race or culture of Jews
exists, and even if one did, it would still be the
case that racism is simply evil and unscientific.

It’s time that there were no more taboo subjects. I
was raised as a liberal humanist and I still am one.
But I’ve expanded my world view steadily and
carefully over the decades. It’s time we admit to
some basic facts: AIPAC runs the U.S. and Jews run
the media, Israel is a racist state that kills and
subverts virtually indiscriminately and hordes
nuclear weapons with impunity. They have attacked the
U.S. on two occasions now also with impunity.

What does this say about “the average Jew on the
street”? Practically nothing. Except that they have
been fooled as much as we have, and are beginning to
wake up just as we are. Let’s put it into a crystal
clear perspective with this analogy:

You and your spouse are overseas. Suddenly you are
surrounded and nooses are placed around your necks.
“Why are you doing this?” you plead. “Because you are
Americans”, they answer, “and Americans have killed
more than a million of our civilian population”. “But
we had nothing to do with that! We were against the
war! We HATE Bush and Cheney, we are liberals, we
were fooled about 9-11 and lied to about WMD’s!” you
persist. But you are hanged dead anyway. Because you
were American. “All Americans are the same. They are
of Satan.”, is the last thing you hear, “but at least
we are avenged.”

That’s racism. That’s primitive. That’s EASY to
believe when you are angry and seek revenge. So let’s
go after these Jews that are controlling us. But
let’s make VERY sure that NOT ONE innocent person
(that is to say 99% of Jews) is caught up in this
hunt for the criminals. And lets be clear about
something else too: just as most Jews are not
directly involved in this, likewise a large fraction
of the people who are involved in it are not Jewish.

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By M.B.S.S., November 5, 2009 at 1:58 am Link to this comment

no shortage of people to argue for war regardless of how stupid or misguided it is.  with the threshold this low it is no wonder that the world is in the state it’s in.

did someone say it’s a “no-brainer” to exit afghanistan?  that’s an understatement if there ever was one.  maybe it’s time to rethink our mantra of “bombs, boots, and bullets, uber alles.”

“hearts and minds” at the barrel of gun.  ha!

the CIA splashing around cash…

the drug trade…

the history, the puppet gov’t, the drones.

what a fantastic, fecking joke.

do you feel more safe because of this war?  if you do you’re an idiot.  we’re spending blood and bucks to create a new generation of those that hate us for invading their home and destroying it.

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By Marshall, November 5, 2009 at 1:06 am Link to this comment

9/11 proved that Afghanistan’s problems are our problems despite McGovern’s
belief that they are unrelated.  McGovern has submitted to a future of Al Qaida
rule in Afghanistan even though numerous attacks culminating in the
destruction of the WTC demonstrated the fallacy of this state of denial.  His
statement that “we don’t know where al-Qaida is” is an unwitting testament to
our successes against them since our invasion - at which time we knew exactly
where they were and had the smoking holes in the ground to prove it.  Our
troop presence there has thus far staved off a full re-infestation by AQ, but we
cannot stem the Taliban tide without a greater commitment (NATO included). 
The false comparison with vietnam only serves to genericize all conflicts and
ignores the important differences here, including the consequences of failure.

The afghan government is incapable of assuming security of the entire country. 
Those who believe it to be a US puppet regime seem unaware of the
implication that without its puppet-master, the prognosis is collapse and the
vacuum will be filled imminently by the insurgents themselves.  Afghanistan
will inevitably revert to its Taliban/AQ past replete with full scale, state
sponsored training and staging grounds for future global terrorist operations. 
The US will be one of its primary targets and will suffer far more dealing with
an inflated problem than we suffer now containing it.

Virtually all of the same comparisons and dyer predictions about Afghanistan
were voiced about pre-surge Iraq.  And indeed the surge in troops there
brought higher casualties for a time but is obviously paying off in the longer
run as we execute our withdrawal scenario.  Occupations CAN have a
successful resolution and we must make the necessary commitment to
Afghanistan to ensure such an outcome there.

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By JDmysticDJ, November 4, 2009 at 11:08 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther
I was afraid someone would ask that question.
I’ve been doing a search engine search to verify that fact. Unfortunately, I have not, as yet, been able to bring up that information. However, that information did come from a previous search. The source, I believe, but I wouldn’t, stake my credibility on it, was the Wall Street Journal.
Regarding the number of economists that are Jewish, that source was Paul Krugman, during an appearance on “This Week with George Stephanoplous”
This, of course, is somewhat embarrassing, and I probably shouldn’t have included it in my comment.
It really doesn’t relate to the point I was trying to make.
Do you not believe that there is a strong Jewish presence on Wall Street?
Do you not believe that Jewish PACs have a powerful influence on our Legislators?
Do you not think that our unqualified support of Israel has caused us problems in the Middle East?
Do you think that Mr. Goldstone is biased against Israel?
Finally, I must tell you that the watershed of my political thought, was watching the television documentary “William Shire’s Rise and Fall of the Third Reich,” when I was a young boy. The horror that flashed on the screen had a profound affect on me. I have devoted much of my life to understanding, and combating the mind set that created the holocaust. I believe that that mind set has manifested itself in Israeli Goverment policy. I am a long time advocate of peace, and have spent time in jail, for protesting against war. I am opposed to Israeli policy, but I don’t hate Jews.

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By Folktruther, November 4, 2009 at 9:51 pm Link to this comment

JDMY where did you read the fact that half of the most influential wall streerers are Jews?

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By JDmysticDJ, November 4, 2009 at 8:53 pm Link to this comment

To Glenn Wayne

I lack the artistic gene that allows a person to understand poetry and or abstract prose. It’s my failing, and I apologize. Your post puzzles me.

I’m better with facts.

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By mcthorogood, November 4, 2009 at 8:26 pm Link to this comment

The situation in the Pipelinestan is same ploy used in Central and South America during the Cold War to stop the spread of socialism. Except, today we support the totalitarian governments and facilitate the drug trade, so we can build oil pipelines.

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By Glen Wayne, November 4, 2009 at 7:35 pm Link to this comment

H-one, H-two; N-one, H-two         ePie         Nov. 4th, 2009

Do you play the oboe?
or say hautboy or Oh boy?
Do you do double reed like the newspeak creed?
without a mouthpiece for those not in need.

Please penetrate me pastorally with slender notes and pink verboten.
Leave out the strings of; ‘Das ist streng verboten!’ Dis Nazi mit noten.
Play an octave a period of not with eight strikes and you loop,
for the Master’s of loot.. ‘Alles ist verrotten’ not only mit da cheese.

Please sneeze in the sleeves for the Masters of ease.
Kachoo, Ka ching, Ka schmuck, Ka schmiel..or… Zieg Heil ...for another pile.
Label it Inc.
Ann Rand at the sink,
the oink that ain’t pink;
H 1 for the squeeler
and H 2… say O for the healer.

Say is that so President O?

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By JDmysticDJ, November 4, 2009 at 6:39 pm Link to this comment

Montanawildhack

Right you are, but unfortunately comments like those will cause people to associate you with anti-semitism, and by association, Fascism. People need to know that both Jews and Palestinians are semites. The real anti-semitism in todays world is directed at Palestinians, not Jews.
Its amazing to witness that, perhaps the most persecuted people in the history of the world (Jews), turn right around and start persecuting the Palestinians (Of course this is not true of all Jews. Some of the most knowledgeable and credible critics of Israeli Policy are Jews.)
The real villain here is the influence money has on our Democracy. At the risk of being branded an anti-semite, I feel compelled to point out that Jewish PACs, Jewish money, and a rather large Jewish Electorate, have a very powerful influence on our Democratic processes. Its interesting to note that over the last 35 years the United States has vetoed dozens of United Nations resolutions pertaining to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Aparently, it’s the United States and Israel against the rest of the world, when it comes to United Nations Resolutions regarding the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Recently the United Nations commissioned a Jewish Jurist from South Africa (A self proclaimed Zionist) to report on war crimes that may have occurred during the most recent flare-up in the Israeli Palestinian Conflict. After thorough investigation, Mr. Goldstone (The South African Jurist) reported that both Israel and the Palestinians were guilty of war crimes. The Palestinians because of rocket attacks, and the Israelis because of indiscriminate killing of over 1500 non-combatants (Men, women, and children). Just the other day, the U.S. House of Representatives voted overwhelmingly, to condemn this Jewish Gentleman’s report.
Back to the issue of Jewish influence on our Democracy, and our overall Economy, (And I realize I’m treading on dangerous ground here) but the truth is, it’s been reported that 50% of Wall Street’s most powerful Bankers and Economists are Jewish. That’s power.

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By idarad, November 4, 2009 at 6:37 pm Link to this comment

dihey wrote:

McGovern: is he not the politician who disappeared into oblivion after he lost the
presidential election? Why does this quitter suddenly reappear?

Actually, McGovern ran for President and did not try to run for his Senate seat at
the same time, unlike Lie ber man or McCain.  And he did not just came out of
oblivion.  He was outspoken about Reagan’s war crimes in Central America,
Grenada, illegal bombing of Libya, - Bush the old farts war of agression in the
middle east, Clinton’s wars in Europe and Central America, NAFTA etc, and Bush
the pretenders war on the world, wrote a great book on how to get out of the
mess in the middle east…....  So dihey, what have you done?

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By JDmysticDJ, November 4, 2009 at 4:11 pm Link to this comment

Hey! DiHey
Try sticking to the issue at hand, and not attacking a great Statesman.
Let’s remember that McGovern was right about Viet Nam.
I’m guessing that you preferred the policies of that murderous criminal freak Richard Nixon.
Oops! Did I attack a great Statesman?
No, I attacked a murderous criminal freak.

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By Anarcissie, November 4, 2009 at 3:14 pm Link to this comment

garth:
’... This outright war on the world might cost, and cost dearly, but in the end we might wind up like Germany or Japan.

Now that doesen’t seem so bad. ‘

Germany and Japan were placed on their feet again because they were of use to the United States as satellites.  To whom will the United States be of use, and what will that use be?

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By jjpurr, November 4, 2009 at 2:55 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

(reference my previous comment for continuation)
A strong Baath party was needed to keep peach amd stability among the three groups along with a deterrant to Iran. 
Saddam Hussein was a terrible dictator and his atrocities are well known.  However he was no worse than the Saudi Royalty and in fact not rated worse. He was getting old and there was a ground swelling among the Baath Party to replace him.  Many historians believe that would have happened within a few short years. 

During the Reagan years Iraq was given Chemical weapons.  It was, I believe, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfield that provided those weapons.  It was this casche of chemical weapons that he used on Iran and on some of his own people who were rebellious.  We gave him his chemical weapons and they came from the Toole Ordnance Depot located in Utah.  The chemical weapons in Toole were deteriorating or leaking and had to be destroyed in the early nineties.  Iraq was informed of this and told to destroy their weapons because they were not safe.  The ones in Utah were destroyed and new chemical weapons were made where the chemicals were separated in the shell and mixed to form the gas only when fired.  Therefore they did not have a stability storage problem.  The government knew that the Iraq weapons had been destroyed.

Saddam hussein did not like the Wahhabis and therefore hated al Qaida.  Al Qaida would never enter Iraq as long a Saddam was in power.  In that respect he was our ally.  It was only after Hussein was deposed by the US military that al Qaida entered into the Iraqi conflict. 

Why is all this important?  The answer to that is that the United States under George Bush’s (or Cheney’s) initiative invented reasons for deposing Hussein.  It was a useless war that served the US no purpose and caused us lives and resources.

When we left Viet Nam, an interresting thing happened.  The country was united and recovered immediately.  It was never a “communist country.”
Ho Chi Minh was a folk leader who liked FDR and the US and wanted to unite his country.  He was fighting the French.  Had we supported him against the French he would have been most grateful and set up his government after ours. Instead we forced him to be communist because we were backing the French who was our ally and they (Ho Chi Men forces) needed support.  Russia and China used this country to fight a surrogate war just as we did in Afghanistan 1.

Getting involved in other countries’ civil wars has caused us several problems in our history.  We do sometimes have security interests in doing so, as in Korea and Iraq 1 or Desert Storm.  However, Viet Nam, Iraq 2 and Afghanistan 2 are examples where we should not get involved in a conflict where a civil war is erupting.  We are also inconsistent.  Why are we not getting involved in Sudan and other countries’ civil wars especially where there is widespread genocide?  Had we gone into Afghanistan early in 2001 - before April - we could have wiped out al Qaida and been out of there without any consequences, and 911 would not have occurred. 
Instead we went in much too late and now are involved in a civil war while trying to defeat al Qaida.  It will never work. 

Instead of invading Iraq, it would have been better or easier to justify an invasion of Saudi Arabia.  Remember, all but 3 of the hijackers came from Saudi Arabia, and the rest came from Pakistan. In addition, al Qaida gets most of its financial support from Saudi Arabia. We get very little oil (if any) from Saudi Arabia.  It all comes down to the Bushes connection with the Saudi Royal Family, whose oil dealings made the Bushes very wealthy.

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By dihey, November 4, 2009 at 2:05 pm Link to this comment

McGovern: is he not the politician who disappeared into oblivion after he lost the presidential election? Why does this quitter suddenly reappear?

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By Kaelieh, November 4, 2009 at 1:27 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“War is the health of the State.” - Murray Rothbard

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By Dave Schwab, November 4, 2009 at 1:16 pm Link to this comment

Soon President Obama will decide whether to send as many as 60,000 additional U.S. soldiers to the war in Afghanistan.

Let’s urge Obama to live up to the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize. Tell him to withdraw troops from Afghanistan—not send more.

http://bit.ly/noafghansurge

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By Folktruther, November 4, 2009 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment

McGovern, and old Dem pol, is arguing from a perspective of winning the next presidential election.  Which corresponds to a certain extent with the interests of the Amereican people.  But does not correspond with the aims and views of the US power structure.

Obama is influenced by Zbig in foreign policy, the Realist counterpart of the neocons but with similar geo-strategic designs.  He doesn’t care what the population thinks, his foreign policy views are given in his book THE GRAND CHESSBORAD.

Obama does, indeed, care what the population thinks because he wants to get elected next time.  But he also has to care what the plutocracy thinks because that is where the election money and media is. 

Neocon policy is a disastrous failure but the US has pursued it under Bush-Obama.  Can Obama give it up now?  I don’t see how.  His Plan, if that is what you can call it, is to pursue Bushite strategy while stating that he is Changing it.

So that is probably what he will do in the Afpak war, state he is withdrawing and continue it.  and since the plutocratic media will support it, the Orwellian truth consensus that the Bushites have legitimated will continue.  Just as both Bush and Obama stated that ‘we don’t torture’ while continuing torture.  And to try to intimidate the American population from telling the simple truth.

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By Fraser Tothus, November 4, 2009 at 12:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

As with the talking heads of the previous wars and previous gnerations, the so-called Doves, what opposition to US wars of conquest there is does not include any principled opposition to these perpetual wars of corporate hegemony.  The “costs” of the wars only ever consider the “costs to us”, our money, our troops, our “credibility”.  As with Vietnam, as with all other US wars, the war’s real victims are hardly a consideration.  Under the principles of Nuremberg used to condemn the wars’ losers, an invading and occupying nation assumes all responsibility for whatever occurs thereafter.  But the US has no use for International Law, or any system in which force is used only as a last resort.  The damage the US war of terror campaign has brought to this and other regions will not be fixed or mitigated by a US withdrawal, though that is the very least that ought to occur.  What justice calls for is an end to the occupation, hands off the region, and massive war reparations. 

To quote John Pilger: “Far from being the terrorists of the world, the Islamic peoples have been its victims, principally the victims of U.S. fundamentalism, whose power, in all its forms-military, strategic, and economic-is the greatest source of terrorism on Earth…. People are neither still nor stupid. They see their independence compromised, their resources and land and the lives of their children taken away, and their accusing fingers increasingly point north: to the great enclaves of plunder and privilege. Inevitably, terror breeds terror and more fanaticism. But how patient the oppressed have been.”

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By JOEY, November 4, 2009 at 11:45 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

2012
OBAMA           PALIN
  EDUCATION         NRA
  HEALTHCARE       KKK
  WAR             ROVE
  WAR             DIXIE
  WAR             BIBLE

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By garth, November 4, 2009 at 11:27 am Link to this comment

Although I can appreciate the sentiment behind McGovern’s plea, I think that we should not only step the occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq, but we should invade Iran and Korea, maybe even Venezuela, Bolivia and Ecuador to boot.

I grew up under the stress of an alcoholic father and, in the end, all one could do was let the son-of-bitch have his way, which was usually tantamount to ramming his head against the door or doing something equally self-destrucive, as any child of an alcoholic parent will confirm.

We have been under the spell of these military, self-educated neanderthals for far too long.  Maybe a complete and undeniable failure on their part will bring the rest of us, the peace and freedom loving part of the population, to the point where we have to gather up the dead, recoup our losses to society and declare:  There, you did it your way now sit down and shut up and behave as if we were a consititutional form of government!

This outright war on the world might cost, and cost dearly, but in the end we might wind up like Germany or Japan.

Now that doesen’t seem so bad.

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By Thong-girl, November 4, 2009 at 10:53 am Link to this comment

Gee, “a corrupt government involved in drugs” let me see, let me see, is George referring to Karzai or Obama’s government?  In case anyone has forgotten the name, Eugene Hasenfus, slave to Oliver North and the Reagan drug cartel.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Hasenfus

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By Rainer, November 4, 2009 at 10:25 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Questions: Why is it that no one, comments or otherwise, or at least mentions the role of American elite industry, in our maintaining troops in the middle east?  How can we even claim to be a democratic
nation when, in reality, we are ruled by Corportocracy?
Wouldn’t it be more honest to put stickers on the back of our cars with the words “SUPPORT OUR BIG AMERICAN INDUSTRIES IN THE MIDDLE EAST” ?

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By Sallyport, November 4, 2009 at 8:51 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The corporatocracy has enlisted the military as lobyists.  They wield power
effortlessly, vide the stark fact that a majority of Americans want us out of
Afghanistan & Iraq, but the administration simply ignores this. What will it take to
get out of this bind?  Maybe we’ll have to resort the the “Network” ploy: keep
shouting “I’m mad as hell & I’m not going to take it anymore!”

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By faberglas, November 4, 2009 at 7:56 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“War is a Racket” - General Smedley Butler USMC

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By montanawildhack, November 4, 2009 at 7:44 am Link to this comment

It’s sad that in America politicians have to be near death to speak truth to the Zionist power structure…  George McGovern and Jimmy Carter are 2 perfect examples… Their political careers are over and they are close to meeting Jesus so there is very little the Zionists can do to intiminate them…  Jimmy Carter can’t get a cab anymore in D.C. because he had the courage to speak objectively about the mid east and Israel…  He is now openly called an anti-semite….  So all this talk and writing about Afghanistan and Iraq is a huge waste of time… It matters not if 99 percent of Americans want out of Afghanistan and Iraq… What matters is what Israel wants…  We ain’t EVER getting out of Afghanistan and Iraq because that isn’t part of the plan boys and girls…  Greater Israel is the plan!! And the Goyem better get used to blood and death and waste Forever!!!

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By coco, November 4, 2009 at 7:30 am Link to this comment

The American government, the first pilfer corporate government that claimed not to be communist. Crooked politicians have made the laws that make corporate bankruptcy a millionaire’s dream. The reason you don’t have a union job is because your favorite politician gets a big campaign donation and a paid vacation every election year.

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By coco, November 4, 2009 at 7:20 am Link to this comment

The American government are a worthless bunch of pilfers. They have us engaged all over the world in several countries where we have no business. It has everything to do with special interest and greed. Our country is the cause of war all over the world. American money and foreign aid instigate war and murder. Our politicians have sold our country out to poverty level wages and imports from around the world. There is nothing that they do right. Trillion dollar deficits and trade deficits are all they know. They travel the world for their own business interest at our expense. Health care, social security, union job, national debt, medicare, trade, tax’s, foreign conflict, Israeli lobby, kook religion in government. What do they do right? nothing.!

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By JDmysticDJ, November 4, 2009 at 7:12 am Link to this comment

Another similarity to Viet Nam. McGovern voices opposition to war.
Some say there is no comparison to Viet Nam.
The major issues are exactly the same. The only real differences are: There is no draft, the number of lives lost is smaller, and the economic costs of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq will be much greater.
Continuing these useless wars, will make the funding of important domestic programs nearly impossible, may destroy the value of the dollar, and could send this country into bankruptcy.

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By idarad, November 4, 2009 at 5:55 am Link to this comment

McGovern’s key comment - Afghanistan brought down the Soviet Union by
destroying its resolve and depleting its treasury. Unless we get out now, that fate
will belong to US.

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By MycallMcb, November 4, 2009 at 5:34 am Link to this comment

YES & YES…..get out of Afghanistan and keep it simple ! Just do it and follow what works stop trying to tweek a vastly unfair and greedy system…  Make History !  Amen

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By PatrickHenry, November 4, 2009 at 5:07 am Link to this comment

Getting out of Afghanistan is a no brainer.  The 2.1 million full time troops America has could not pacify that immense, mountainous country against an insurgency which has lasted 5000 years.

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By Gloria Picchetti, November 4, 2009 at 4:13 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Let us bring the troops home. They will be safe. We will have a stronger National Guard we need at home to protect the borders & coasts & for disaster relief. Maybe the economy can turn around if we are not using our money to police the world.

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