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War Is a Hate Crime

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Posted on Oct 26, 2009
AP / Rafiq Maqbool

A U.S. soldier walks in the snow at an outpost near the Afghanistan-Pakistan border.

By Chris Hedges

Violence against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people is wrong. So is violence against people in Afghanistan and Iraq. But in the bizarre culture of identity politics, there are no alliances among the oppressed. The Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act, the first major federal civil rights law protecting lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, passed last week, was attached to a $680-billion measure outlining the Pentagon’s budget, which includes $130 billion for ongoing military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Democratic majority in Congress, under the cover of protecting some innocents, authorized massive acts of violence against other innocents.

It was a clever piece of marketing. It blunted debate about new funding for war. And behind the closed doors of the caucus rooms, the Democratic leadership told Blue Dog Democrats, who are squeamish about defending gays or lesbians from hate crimes, that they could justify the vote as support for the war. They told liberal Democrats, who are squeamish about unlimited funding for war, that they could defend the vote as a step forward in the battle for civil rights. Gender equality groups, by selfishly narrowing their concern to themselves, participated in the dirty game.

“Every thinking person wants to take a stand against hate crimes, but isn’t war the most offensive of hate crimes?” asked Rep. Dennis Kucinich, who did not vote for the bill, when I spoke to him by phone. “To have people have to make a choice, or contemplate the hierarchy of hate crimes, is cynical. I don’t vote to fund wars. If you are opposed to war, you don’t vote to authorize or appropriate money. Congress, historically and constitutionally, has the power to fund or defund a war. The more Congress participates in authorizing spending for war, the more likely it is that we will be there for a long, long time. This reflects an even larger question. All the attention is paid to what President Obama is going to do right now with respect to Iraq and Afghanistan. The truth is the Democratic Congress could have ended the war when it took control just after 2006. We were given control of the Congress by the American people in November 2006 specifically to end the war. It did not happen. The funding continues. And while the attention is on the president, Congress clearly has the authority at any time to stop the funding. And yet it doesn’t. Worse yet, it finds other ways to garner votes for bills that authorize funding for war. The spending juggernaut moves forward, a companion to the inconscient force of war itself.”

The brutality of Matthew Shepard’s killers, who beat him to death for being gay, is a product of a culture that glorifies violence and sadism. It is the product of a militarized culture. We have more police, prisons, inmates, spies, mercenaries, weapons and troops than any other nation on Earth. Our military, which swallows half of the federal budget, is enormously popular—as if it is not part of government. The military values of hyper-masculinity, blind obedience and violence are an electric current that run through reality television and trash-talk programs where contestants endure pain while they betray and manipulate those around them in a ruthless world of competition. Friendship and compassion are banished.

This hyper-masculinity is at the core of pornography with its fusion of violence and eroticism, as well as its physical and emotional degradation of women. It is an expression of the corporate state where human beings are reduced to commodities and companies have become proto-fascist enclaves devoted to maximizing profit. Militarism crushes the capacity for moral autonomy and difference. It isolates us from each other. It has its logical fruition in Abu Ghraib, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, along with our lack of compassion for our homeless, our poor, our mentally ill, our unemployed, our sick, and yes, our gay, lesbian, transgender and bisexual citizens. 

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Klaus Theweleit in his two volumes entitled “Male Fantasies,” which draw on the bitter alienation of demobilized veterans in Germany following the end of World War I, argues that a militarized culture attacks all that is culturally defined as the feminine, including love, gentleness, compassion and acceptance of difference. It sees any sexual ambiguity as a threat to male “hardness” and the clearly defined roles required by the militarized state. The continued support for our permanent war economy, the continued elevation of military values as the highest good, sustains the perverted ethic, rigid social roles and emotional numbness that Theweleit explored. It is a moral cancer that ensures there will be more Matthew Shepards.

Fascism, Theweleit argued, is not so much a form of government or a particular structuring of the economy or a system, but the creation of potent slogans and symbols that form a kind of psychic economy which places sexuality in the service of destruction. The “core of all fascist propaganda is a battle against everything that constitutes enjoyment and pleasure,” Theweleit wrote. And our culture, while it disdains the name of fascism, embraces its dark ethic.

New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman, interviewed in 2003 by Charlie Rose, spoke in this sexualized language of violence to justify the war in Iraq, a moment preserved on YouTube (see video below):

“What they needed to see was American boys and girls going house to house, from Basra to Baghdad, and basically saying, ‘Which part of this sentence don’t you understand?’ ” Friedman said. “ ‘You don’t think, you know, we care about our open society? You think this bubble fantasy, we’re just gonna let it grow? Well, suck on this.’ That, Charlie, was what this war was about. We could have hit Saudi Arabia, it was part of that bubble. Could have hit Pakistan. We hit Iraq because we could.”

This is the kind of twisted logic the killers of Matthew Shepard would understand.

The philosopher Theodor Adorno wrote, in words gay activists should have heeded, that exclusive preoccupation with personal concerns and indifference to the suffering of others beyond the self-identified group made fascism and the Holocaust possible.

“The inability to identify with others was unquestionably the most important psychological condition for the fact that something like Auschwitz could have occurred in the midst of more or less civilized and innocent people,” Adorno wrote. “What is called fellow traveling was primarily business interest: one pursues one’s own advantage before all else, and simply not to endanger oneself, does not talk too much. That is a general law of the status quo. The silence under the terror was only its consequence. The coldness of the societal monad, the isolated competitor, was the precondition, as indifference to the fate of others, for the fact that only very few people reacted. The torturers know this, and they put it to test ever anew.”

Chris Hedges, whose column is published on Truthdig every Monday, spent two decades as a foreign reporter covering wars in Latin America, Africa, Europe and the Middle East. He has written nine books, including “Empire of Illusion: The End of Literacy and the Triumph of Spectacle” (2009) and “War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning” (2003).


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By Folktruther, November 6, 2009 at 3:15 pm Link to this comment

Christian, you have patiently explained to Inherit that it doesn’t matter what he thinks, it only matters what God thinks.  Luckily for you I happen to know what God thinks and he thinks you are a bible reading dingbat.  You seriously quote that biblical garbarge abaout murdering gays at a time when they are being attacked?  Only a truly religous man could seriously hold such perverted, indeed, criminal, values.

If I were you, Christian, I would undergo an agonizing reapprasial of my religious beliefs, and take Holy Scripture with a few grains of salt.  In fact, now that I think of it, God demands it.  and when you are sprinkling the salt, be careful of the little people living in Ehrenstein’s salt shaker.

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By David Ehrenstein, November 6, 2009 at 12:41 pm Link to this comment

“Common sense should tell you that you should not have an opinion on something you, yourself have not experienced.”

Translation: “There are tiny people living in my salt shaker.”

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By OzarkMichael, November 6, 2009 at 12:39 pm Link to this comment

Unless you have a Doctoral Degree in Counseling you should just keep your mouth shut because you don’t know what you are talking about.

In medical school I learned quite a bit, and in 20 years of practice i learned even more.

It is my job to begin a therapeutic process and refer to a good counsellor. Sometimes I have to be the therapist because the patient cant afford the counsellor. So I say with reasonable certainty that you dont know what you are doing.

What school of thought taught you to explore and expose someone’s inner conflicts on the internet? Are you out of your mind?

If you really are a councellor I would never refer a patient to you. Furthermore i would call your state licensing board and report you because you need some training.

Furthermore i am a Christian, with some appreciation of what our assignened task is. The issue is not homosexuality or fornication or greed or anything else. It is your Christian walk with God that is out of balance right now.

If you really are a Christian i would take you aside and try to get you back on the right track.

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By Leefeller, November 6, 2009 at 12:10 pm Link to this comment

Dave writes:

“Common sense should tell you that you should not have an
opinion on something you, yourself have not experienced.”

Though I have not experienced many things, one can have
opinions on things. Especially when one believes people
who claim an experience may be delusional, mad or insane.
For instance my analogy of the Flinstones, being a real
life story, has merit when using the Dave argument for it
may be my belief.

Dave, if you felt an experience which you said was true,
for example let’s say, you had been picked up and flew on
a UFO and of course had the traditional anal probe, I
would probably voice my opinion as a skeptic, even if I
had not experienced it! Just because someone says they
experienced something does not make it real or true,
lying seems relevant or as I prefer delusions?

In fact most opinions may for discussion sake be on
peoples non experiences! Since the subject seemingly is
on your fetish of what you believe and I do not; god, it
is my opinion the Pope nor George Bush talk to god,
according to you I cannot nor should I voice my opinion
for I have not experienced being pope or talking to god? 

For reference sake, I would not bring up the topic unless
fantasy folks such as yourself and C96 had not brought it
up first. Not necessarily a good argument for bringing it
up, but the constant postalizing becomes most annoying.
Some posters do the same and bring up the grassy knoll
almost as often as the gospel deluded fetishes and I
voice my opinions on then also.

Voicing an opinion does not mean in my case others must
accept, nor am I speaking for all humanity, for I speak
for myself. Self righteousness some portray with their
never ending gospel, seems the difference Dave, is in
knowing delusions from fiction. It may also be helpful
to know opinion from delusions

If someone promotes a belief or cause and another does
not want to buy into it, they should not voice their
opinion? Thanks Dave, sounds as if the discussion is
over.

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By Anarcissie, November 6, 2009 at 11:49 am Link to this comment

God, as the word is usually used, is undefined.  Therefore, such questions as “Does God exist?” are meaningless, along with the innumerable assertions made about God’s will, God’s power, God’s knowledge, and so forth.

This does not mean people can’t have personal experiences which they designate as “God” but it does mean that it will not be possible for them to discuss them with other people until they can either point out the object they are discussing or otherwise identify it in some why meaningful to the other parties involved.

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By DaveZx3, November 6, 2009 at 11:25 am Link to this comment

Leefeller, November 6 at 1:35 pm #

“In my opinion finding god is not a possibility, for the concept of god does not exist”

What else doesn’t exist in your tiny little world. 

YOU, the SUPREME YOU, the ALL KNOWING, ALL SEEING, YOU sit in your tiny little house, as insignificant as a grain of sand on the beach, and proclaim what is and what is not true.

And you speak for all humanity, I suppose.  Since you have not experienced God, then no one could have ever, ever experienced God.  You declare it.

I have never been to the depths of the ocean, but I have talked to people who have.  I do not, nor cannot deny what experiences they had.  To do so would be the sign of an absolute fool. 

Common sense should tell you that you should not have an opinion on something you, yourself have not experienced. 

Confine your discussions to things you actually have at least some experience with.

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By David Ehrenstein, November 6, 2009 at 10:28 am Link to this comment

Apology accepted.

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By Leefeller, November 6, 2009 at 9:35 am Link to this comment

David Ehrenstein,

Please accept my apologies,  comments were not meant as insult or to be cheap, my misunderstanding.

In my opinion finding god is not a possibility, for the concept of god does not exist. (my belief) I was not being cheap, though my discomfort is in the simple fact I nominally follow with the principle, one should keep their beliefs to themselves, I will do as my better judgment prompts.  My apologies.

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By David Ehrenstein, November 6, 2009 at 9:16 am Link to this comment

I aneither “hurt” nor “sad” Leefeller. You long to assign those categories to me as a way of expressing “compassion” toward those who have not “found God.”

I’ve faced your form of cheap insult all my life.

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By Leefeller, November 6, 2009 at 9:12 am Link to this comment

If the ark was the Titanic, people heading for the life boats were to be stopped and asked; instead of the traditional women and children first;  only Christians? (Seems most Christian leaving everyone else, with what seems a demented glee!)

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By christian96, November 6, 2009 at 9:00 am Link to this comment

There were MANY people who didn’t believe in God
during the 120 years Noah was building the Ark.
They ridiculed and mocked Noah until one day the
rains came and they died.

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By Leefeller, November 6, 2009 at 8:35 am Link to this comment

Being polite seldom works in a room with the deluded.

Belief maybe should be a personal thing. between the person and his belief. Emptiness of words quoted from 3000 year old goat headers manuals portrayed as fact, gets mighty annoying when it has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with reality, except in the selective mind of the deluded one!

  David Ehrenstein, your hurt has touched me, I feel your sadness though your posts, please enjoy life as one can, also this, if one does not feel the need to believe in god, they should know they are not alone.

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By David Ehrenstein, November 6, 2009 at 6:36 am Link to this comment

“Who Forgives your sins?”

The Big Invisible Bi-Polar Daddy Who Lives in The Sky, of course.

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By David Ehrenstein, November 6, 2009 at 6:34 am Link to this comment

Gay Marriage is not “foundering” at all, Inherit the Wind.

It is a bell that cannot be unrung.

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By christian96, November 5, 2009 at 10:26 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind—-Go through your post and count
the number of times you said “I think.”  I hate to
burst your bubble but in the grand scheme of things
it really doesn’t matter what you think.  It matters
what God thinks.  The world is full of people who
set themselves up as God by saying “I think.”  Well,
you didn’t design the universe and you don’t know
what is good for people, especially children and
families.  God knows.  If people would follow his
commandments we would have a much better world to
live in.  However, they don’t generally speaking.
There are a few who make a sincere efforts to follow
the commandments but even those people fail at times
but when they do fail they have an advocate in
Heaven, Jesus Christ, who will go before his father
and ask for their forgiveness.  Who forgives your
sins?

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By Inherit The Wind, November 5, 2009 at 6:15 pm Link to this comment

Christian:
1) Only right-wing Christians assert that homosexuality is a choice and profess “cures”.  They also profess to have seen miracles too.

Why would ANYONE in their right mind choose a path that would lead to discrimination, possible imprisonment, torture and even murder just to get their rocks off with one of their own sex when they could do it with one of the opposite sex just as well and avoid all that?

DUH!!!! I’ve NEVER met ONE Gay person, male or female who didn’t feel that despite the stigma, this was the right path for them.

2) The Bible says a lot of things. It says stone an adulterous to death.  Do we do that? No!  It says if you think your wife cheated on you give her poisoned dirt and if her body rots she was cheating, but it if doesn’t she was not cheating.  Do we do THAT? No!

3) I’ve never met, seen or heard of ANY person who was “enticed” into the Gay lifestyle who wasn’t either Gay or coerced.  Coercion means rape—and I don’t care if it’s Gay or Straight, rape is rape and a crime.

4) Even being raised by Gay parents doesn’t mean a child will be Gay—ever. Good, loving, caring parents are just that. 

5) When I say what they do in private, I mean specifically sexual behavior. I don’t want to see two men or two women having sex in public.  But that is no different than the fact that I don’t want to see a man and a woman having sex in public either.  You need to see that if a behavior is prohibited for one adult, it cannot be allowed for others.

6) I have NOTHING against Gay marriage other than I thought, from the beginning, that the strategy taken to get it legalized was a bad one, doomed to founder as it is now foundering.  They went for the whole enchilada and may end up with nothing.  For that I’m deeply sorry. I think two people should be able to bind themselves to each other legally.  Personally, I don’t think Government should be in the “marriage” business.  I think “Marriage” is a religious and private thing, and that the Government should ONLY issue civil contracts, whether it’s to Gay or Straight adults.  Let marriages be performed by priests, ministers, rabbis, imams, shamans, druids, whatever.

7) Your particularly virulent interpretations of homosexuality ARE repulsive, and typically ignorant as is the norm of the radical religious right.  I presume you are one of those quack “psychologists” who effect “miracle cures” on Gays.  Your supposed sympathy and forgiving nature that your Jesus espoused is just words you mouth, not deeds you do.

For that, I’m sorry for you.

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By David Ehrenstein, November 5, 2009 at 7:59 am Link to this comment

Yes that’s me.

Thanks!

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By elisalouisa, November 5, 2009 at 7:12 am Link to this comment

Are you the same David Ehrenstein who wrote the essay “Obama the ‘Magic Hero’ printed in the Los Angeles Times? I assume you are and ask you to please forgive
my ignorance as to that fact. I shall read your essays more thoroughly or as
another Truthdig poster puts it, “ponder on them”.
Please bear in mind that people from all walks of life and beliefs come to this forum, not all come to widen their horizon or provide information on given subjects.I shall leave it at that.
Thank you again for sharing your excellent columns and also for recommending “God’s Song.” I wish you well.

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By Leefeller, November 5, 2009 at 7:01 am Link to this comment

Ardee, interesting commentary and seems realistic to me. Does it have a large agreement of acceptance in the child development field? One would question, acceptance in stereotyped bigoted states such as Texas or were C96 and his projected stereotypical landscape seem to exist.

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By David Ehrenstein, November 5, 2009 at 6:51 am Link to this comment

Thanks ardee. You said everything I would have said, in your own words.

You need not direct any further posts to me christian96 as I have nothing more to say to you.

And the figure I gave was 75%.

Typical that you jacked it up to 80.

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, November 5, 2009 at 6:41 am Link to this comment

By christian96, November 4 at 8:31 pm #

“Hitler—-If you have a Doctoral Degree in Counseling
just answer two questions:

1. First explain the development of the human
personality according to Sigmund Freud.

2. Secondly, explain the difference between Alfred
Adler’s theory of counseling in contrast to the
Freudian approach.  Let’s hear something “Big Mouth.” “

And just how would this prove anything, Count Schadenfreude?  Both those questions are so 100 level that virtually anyone with access to the internet could answer them.  Can you, Dr Sigmund FRAUD?

Why don’t you explain to me how the cognitive dissonance you’re experiencing due to your conflicting desires for salvation and homosexual encounters are affecting your sleep hygiene.  Let’s hear it, Dr. FRAUD!

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By ardee, November 5, 2009 at 4:03 am Link to this comment

reposted where it belomgs….

Since 80% of your loved ones died as a result of AIDS which is basically a homosexually related diseaase

One is certainly within bounds speaking to his personal religious beliefs. But when one uses those beliefs to spread biased scientific “fact” as that noted above then one might expect to be corrected.

AIDS is NOT a homosexual related disease. That is a crock of crap one hears from bigots and the unwashed. Are you such as that? Your bible is the work of man, many men actually, and contains much that is simply stupid, the examples you show above confirm this.

“If a man also lie with another man as he does with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination:
THEY SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH.”  That is a stiff penalty but I can understand the reasoning behind it.
I taught Child Development on the university level.               
One of the ways children learn is through role models.  When a child is going through psycho/sexual developmental stage and see men sleeping with other men and women sleeping with other women it can have
an influence on the attitudes and behaviors of that child.  Therefore, through the death penalty God eliminated the role models of homosexuality

This bigots claim to have taught child development at any level is simply frightening and unbelievably indicting of our education system.One cannot help but wonder at a school that would hire or retain him, and just how many children did he expose to his sick crap? Homosexuality, as most folks with an actual brain understand, is not a learned behavior. How dark ages of you, “christian”..

Hatred and bigotry, in any form, should not be tolerated , especially when found among those professing to be religiously motivated.If I believed in such I would expect there would be a special place in hell for such as you.

If you take the trouble to read something besides your bible you might find that the AIDS epidemic rampant in Africa is being spread solely through heterosexual contact. You should be ashamed of yourself, just another religious hypocrite, are you?

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By Inherit The Wind, November 4, 2009 at 8:40 pm Link to this comment

Christian96:
The Bible says LOTS of things about homosexuality…
or don’t you think “Judge not lest ye be judged” and “he who is without sin cast first the stone” have a special exception for homosexuality?

Anyone can cherry-pick the scriptures for quotes to support what YOU want to believe.  I’ve given you two examples that show YOUR SAVIOR says you have NO right to judge homosexuals’ behavior.

Here’s a good, moral, ethical rule for you: If happily consenting adults are doing something in private, then it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!

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By elisalouisa, November 4, 2009 at 4:45 pm Link to this comment

What do you mean by “choose not to visit”? I had no “choice” in the latter—and
neither has anyone else touched by the AIDS epidemic. And that’s just ONE
tragedy.

Cain’s question remains “Am I my brother’s keepr?” It was—and remains—
rhetorical for far too many people.
*********************
I mean people like myself when I say “choose not to visit”. Avoiding
uncomfortable situations is what most do so we choose “not to go there”. Of
course, tragedy that directly confronts us we must face and deal with as best
we can. 
As to “Am I my brother’s keeper?” Yes,  we should be our brother’s keeper but
it is a rare day when such a stipulation is truly lived up to although most
profess otherwise.

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By christian96, November 4, 2009 at 4:31 pm Link to this comment

David—-I just walked in the door and have to leave
in 10 minutes for another appointment.  I’ll get
back to you in approx. 3 hours.


Hitler—-If you have a Doctoral Degree in Counseling
just answer two questions:

1. First explain the development of the human
personality according to Sigmund Freud.

2. Secondly, explain the difference between Alfred
Adler’s theory of counseling in contrast to the
Freudian approach.  Let’s hear something “Big Mouth.”

Report this

By David Ehrenstein, November 4, 2009 at 1:30 pm Link to this comment

What do you mean by “choose not to visit”? I had no “choice” in the latter—and neither has anyone else touched by the AIDS epidemic. And that’s just ONE tragedy.

Cain’s question remains “Am I my brother’s keepr?” It was—and remains—rhetorical for far too many people.

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By elisalouisa, November 4, 2009 at 1:10 pm Link to this comment

Mr. Ehrenstein:
Thank you for sharing your writing. “Death In the Afternoon” is poignant and
makes one aware of tragedies that are with us every day but which most choose
not to visit. There are no words that can bring comfort when death come so
slowly and in such an agonizing manner.As we each make our way as best we can down this path called life there is no room for hatred or judgmental comments. I would only say to you to bear in mind all the moments in your life that you
have found joy, as is attested to in your column. When I wonder as to “why” I
go back to basics and ask myself:  Would I choose not to have been born and
thus not experience love, joy and witnessed the beauty of a sunrise, sunset,
waterfall, felt the sun and cool water on my skin, would I have given all that up
to have not also known tragedy, sadness and other negative experiences that
are part of life? Of course, I respond to myself, I choose to have my life and
gratefully so rather than not come into this world because of the sadness and
woe that is part of life. My intent in saying this is to bring some comfort for we
don’t know why things are as they are nor do we see the whole picture in the
realm of time and especially beyond. Thank you again for your writing and also sharing your feelings. As I said before there are no words that can really bring
comfort but we can continue to work together making life better for those yet
to come thus instilling some hope.
P.S. Thanks for “God’s Song” good music and profound words. It stopped
playing toward the end, I shall come back to it at a later time.

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, November 4, 2009 at 1:00 pm Link to this comment

christian96 (aka Count Schadenfreude) said:

“Unless you have a Doctoral Degree in Counseling you should just keep your mouth shut because you don’t know what you are talking about.”

I guess I can speak up then, because my Doctoral Degree in Counseling is every bit a real as yours is.

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, November 4, 2009 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment

To christian96

Get thee behind me, Count Schadenfreude!!!  Your unholy appetite will not be sated here!!! Get thee gone!!!

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By David Ehrenstein, November 4, 2009 at 12:41 pm Link to this comment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEKuGcmW70I

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By christian96, November 4, 2009 at 11:36 am Link to this comment

OzarkMichael—-I thought it would be futile to try
to conduct some serious counseling with David with
ignorant people like you and Hitler listening. I hope
you are happy.  You just interfered with me possibly
being of help to David.  Unless you have a Doctoral
Degree in Counseling you should just keep your
mouth shut because you don’t know what you are
talking about.  Knowing what someone is telling
themselves daily would give me insight into the
cognitive and emotional functioning of David.  It’s
obvious that isn’t going to happen now.  David, if
you are reading this I can’t be of help to you on
line but I would seriously ask you to speak with a
counselor in person to try to better understand
yourself.  My personal preference would be a Christian counselor but that isn’t entirely necessary. You can receive help from any counselor
who is competent and can help you better understand
yourself.  You say “There is no God.”  I don’t think
you really know what is taught about God in the
Bible.  I am going to look for some scriptures I
hope can be of assistance to you.  Do me a favor.
Don’t listen to ignorant demon possessed people like
Hitler.  He is bound for hell and is trying to take
as many people with him as possible.  I will post
again in a couple of hours.

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, November 4, 2009 at 8:54 am Link to this comment

ardee:

Don’t pay attention to elisalouisa, she’s the biggest troll around here.  All the stupid things she posts are just an act.  What she really wants is to wheedle personal information from you to feed her hunger for human tragedy.  She’s what we hunters refer to as a schadenfreude vampire.  And she’s trying to do to you what christian96 has been doing to David Ehrenstein throughout this thread.  In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if the two of them belonged to the same schadenfraude vampire nest. 

What you need to understand is that all schadenfraude vampires suffer from frequent and acute bouts of cognitive dissonance.  And the only way they can drown out the psychic hunger of their own discordant desires is to feed off the tragedy of others.  We hunters (also known as dissonancers) therefore patrol message boards everywhere trying to invoke spells of cognitive dissonance in these malign creatures in an attempt to drive them away. 

As proof that I am being earnest, I ask that you closely examine christian96’s posts.  He’s clearly a homosexual who hates homosexuals.  Talk about cognitive dissonance!!!  And now he’s clearly trying to feed off David’s tragic story in order to sublimate his own desire to have sex with adolescent males.

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By Leefeller, November 4, 2009 at 8:42 am Link to this comment

Religion has little to do with how easily one sees as Ozark Michael mentions, copious amounts of salt being pored on the wound. It seems my disappointment towards Christain96 is pulling up with my disappointment towards Obama.

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By OzarkMichael, November 4, 2009 at 8:23 am Link to this comment

c96 said: After your loved one died
of AIDS what kind of thoughts run through your mind
daily?

This is not exactly witnessing to God’s Love. This is not helping someone search for the truth.
It is more like rubbing salt in a wound.

If there is a God, we surely all do some things he disapproves of. That is normal. Jesus forgives those things.

But at all costs one should avoid doing things in God’s name that He would disapprove of. It is dangerous to pretend to do God’s work while doing things that God would disapprove of. 

c96, if you are a Christian you would be trembling right now. If you love Christ you would apologize.

If you know more about God than other people here, you need to show it.

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By elisalouisa, November 4, 2009 at 7:49 am Link to this comment

Ardee: Continuing this downward spiral of personal comments is not what this
forum is about. Yet, we can all be baited into such a situation, as you have been.
Another poster said, “Don’t fall for it.” I would heartily agree.

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By David Ehrenstein, November 4, 2009 at 7:10 am Link to this comment

I am HIV-

I trust you’re not disappointed.

Here is one of the many aritcles I’ve written about AIDS

http://www.laweekly.com/2003-12-11/supplement/death-in-the-afternoon/


There is no God.

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By christian96, November 4, 2009 at 6:39 am Link to this comment

David—-I haven’t forgotten about you.  I have been
busy for the last couple of days.  You said that
80% of your loved ones who passed away had AIDS.
Do you have AIDS?  That’s a rather quite personal
question.  If you choose to avoid it I will understand.  If you do have AIDS, I would assume
you are receiving treatments and eating plenty of
fruit, vegetables, meat, vitamin pills, etc. to try
to boost your immune system.  Have you typed in
“Immune System” online to learn more about how you
can take measures to improve your immune system?
I’m rather ignorant about AIDS so I may sound rather
stupid with some of my comments or questions?  If
so, please forgive me.  After your loved one died
of AIDS what kind of thoughts run through your mind
daily?  It’s important to be honest.  However being
honest online can be rather embarassing.  If you
choose not to discuss your thoughts I will understand.  Did you ever go to church when you were
a boy?  Do you know what the Bible says about
homosexuality?  If so, please tell me so I will know
if you are accurate or not.  I’m going to stop now
until I hear from you.

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By ardee, November 4, 2009 at 4:32 am Link to this comment

“G"utless “W"itless Hitler, November 2 at 10:44 am

Dont care as to that poster’s history, only commenting on his manner of posting, which far surpasses yours.

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, November 3, 2009 at 6:07 am Link to this comment

To ardee:

He introduced his history himself and it’s material to his worldview as expressed throughout these threads.  To have no interest in it is to have no interest in critical thinking.  Guys like you are exactly what’s wrong with the world.  You take umbrage at someone’s potty mouth and never advance from there.  Wake up, ya boob! 

And a maven of Engish composition you’re not, pal.

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By ardee, November 3, 2009 at 4:13 am Link to this comment

“G"utless “W"itless Hitler, November 2 at 10:44 am

Dont care as to that poster’s history, only commenting on his manner of posting, which far surpasses yours.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 2, 2009 at 6:51 pm Link to this comment

GWH:

I’m no fan of Christian96. I don’t even deny that he’s a gay-basher. 

But I think he’s actually trying to figure out where he stands and what is “christian” and what is not—it’s almost like watching a one-man play.  Sometimes he’s obnoxious as hell, sometimes pitiful, sometimes clever and funny.

I don’t see “troll” and I’m not sure I see a liar.  But he sure is entertaining sometimes.

(I’m guessing your handle is designed to imply that GW Hitler means GW Bush).

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, November 2, 2009 at 6:44 am Link to this comment

To ardee:

I can see you’re a little slow on the uptake so I’ll let you in on the big secret:  christian96 is the gay-basher around here.  He’s an apologist for the perpetrators of a hate crime.  Maybe you shouldn’t take everything he says as gospel. Do you actually believe the guy has a Ph.D? 

Try to keep up, ya chiselwit.

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By elisalouisa, November 1, 2009 at 9:13 pm Link to this comment

He (and apparently only) he has discovered that our tax dollars acontributing to
the suffering of the world! Why didn’t anyone else tell us about this?
**********
That is exactly my point Mr. Ehrenstein. Does the mainstream media tell us? No. They sugarcoat and give us tidbits of nothing.  We have the money for questionable wars yet we cannot afford healthcare, repair of infrastructures and other essential services.  Drug companies do put profits and patents ahead of the lives that are being lost. I am truly sorry for that. But it is also true that philosophic myopia and tunnel vision sours sympathy and empathy (Paraphrasing ITW and I totally agree.)

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By David Ehrenstein, November 1, 2009 at 8:20 pm Link to this comment

“Mr. Hedges is trying to wake us up as
to the suffering of the world that our tax dollars finance.”

How thrilling! He (and apparently only) he has discovered that our tax dollars acontributing to the suffering of the world! Why didn’t anyone else tell us about this?!?!

Meanwhile he doesn’t give a shit fo the horrors being visited on a dialy basis on the lives of LGBT Americans and the relief that the Hate Crimes Law offers.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 1, 2009 at 8:01 pm Link to this comment

elisalouisa, November 1 at 9:45 pm #

ITW: October 30 at 6:45 am If there’s anything I believe in it’s that logic and a
sound moral code can influence and control your emotions—that your emotions
ULTIMATELY reflect what you truly believe—and your logic can affect what you
truly believe, therefore altering your emotions.
******************************
A true gem of wisdom.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Thanks! I might have read it off a boxtop or fortune cookie somewhere.  Actually, it was MY own answer to the constant debates between Bones McCoy and Mr. Spock on whether human emotions were valid or illogical.

Seriously, thanks, but I try (and usually fail) to not take myself too seriously.

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By elisalouisa, November 1, 2009 at 5:45 pm Link to this comment

ITW: October 30 at 6:45 am If there’s anything I believe in it’s that logic and a
sound moral code can influence and control your emotions—that your emotions
ULTIMATELY reflect what you truly believe—and your logic can affect what you
truly believe, therefore altering your emotions.
******************************
A true gem of wisdom.

Report this

By elisalouisa, November 1, 2009 at 5:04 pm Link to this comment

“Violence against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people is wrong. So is
violence against people in Afghanistan and Iraq.”
*****************
Of course, the first sentence of Chris’s column cannot be separated from the
second sentence. It really should have been one sentence with a comma or
semicolon(still used?) to separate. No one speaks for the people in Afghanistan or
Iraq. Is it really a crime to murder the innocent of those lands with drones? Not
according to many people who do not care. Mr. Hedges is trying to wake us up as
to the suffering of the world that our tax dollars finance. That is what his eloquent
writing tells me.

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By David Ehrenstein, November 1, 2009 at 11:09 am Link to this comment

Well I’m going to be derisive anyway.

Meanwhile . . .

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009111story_1-11-2009_pg12_3

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, November 1, 2009 at 11:00 am Link to this comment

David Ehrenstein:
’... Gee whiz, Chris—thanks for the newsflash. We knever would have known if you hadn’t told us.’

Hedges seems to be a sort of mindless hysteric who does not think about what he saying, especially in such recondite areas as implication or contradiction.  I have come to feel, as has been suggested by others here, that he may be an unworthy target even for derision, much less anger.

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By DaveZx3, November 1, 2009 at 6:31 am Link to this comment

ardee, October 31 at 1:59 pm

I don’t take it personal.  If I did, I would probably be in the grave by now. 

There is absolutely nothing that makes my blood flow better than a good honest debate.  It is not about hate, but the expression of ideas.  Why it so often degenerates into hate is sad.  Hate is the seed of war.  Both unnecessary.

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By Sodium, November 1, 2009 at 2:39 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: Anarcissie,October 30 at 4:53 pm.

Quote
======

Sodium-believe nothing until it has been officially denied three times.

Unquote
========


Anar,

Nice to hear from you.

It seems to me that Truedigger3 is either too busy to respond to my inquiry or he simply has no answer to the question I addressed to him. It is gracious of you to do so. Thank you.

I have to assume that the key word in your comment quoted above is “officially”,meaning the government,any govenment. I have no problem with that,since I have become skeptical of all governments since Watergate scandal. How about watching and hearing the reporters of Al-Jazeera from the middle of the war zones in raq,Afghanistan,Lebanon,and Gaza?  There is no “Officialdom” there. One cannot possibly be skeptical about what he/she sees and hears directly from the reporters in the war zones.

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By David Ehrenstein, October 31, 2009 at 9:23 pm Link to this comment

My pain is scarcely the only pain in the world, and I never claimed that it was. But Hedges would claim that my pain, and that of all my friends and loved ones, is second-rate.

At best.

“Violence against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people is wrong.”

Gee whiz, Chris—thanks for the newsflash. We knever would have known if you ahdn’t told us.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, October 31, 2009 at 9:19 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther,

For what it’s worth I raise chickens. A while back I also tried having them stay in the house, my goal was to have the chickens lay their eggs on the livening room sofa, which is next to the kitchen stove, idea was to have real fresh eggs, unfortunately the chickens always left something else on the couch, so for now the chickens are staying with the goats in the old school bus!

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By Inherit The Wind, October 31, 2009 at 8:58 pm Link to this comment

DE:

I gather you lost lots of friends to AIDS.  For that I’m sorry.  But you are an @$$ for thinking your pain is the only pain in the world, or that anyone cares about YOUR pain when you can dis and dismiss other peoples’ pain.

Or that YOU have “seen it all” but nobody else has.

I’m done with this discussion with you. You are an @$$.

I’m happy they got this bill through even if they had to attach it to a military expenditure bill to get it.

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By This Southern Faggot, October 31, 2009 at 4:43 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Darling, this is FABULOUS! Thank you!

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By ardee, October 31, 2009 at 3:43 pm Link to this comment

G"utless “W"itless Hitler, October 31 at 3:06 pm

Im sorry Hitler, did you have anything rational to say?

I guess I should be glad you refrained this time from gay bashing…..

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, October 31, 2009 at 12:15 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther,,

Yes I do have goats, but not in the house. It seems my cats are the only ones able to understand the concept of a potty box.

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, October 31, 2009 at 12:06 pm Link to this comment

To ardee:

Oh yes, I’m the hateful one, while christian96 is just brimming over with love and respect.  You act like a fan boy who hungrily welcomes the “mark” of christian96 all over his face.  Keep On Suckin’.

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By ardee, October 31, 2009 at 10:59 am Link to this comment

DaveZx3, October 31 at 12:57 pm

I trust you will continue to think such nice thoughts, and continue to express them, when we have our disagreements, which we surely will.

I am certainly known for vituperative responses,  though I only initiate them in such cases of virulence and bigotry, which I abhor and will not allow to pass sans noting. I do respond in kind, polite to polite, notsopolite with notsopolite. I leave the choice to the individual.

P.S. Dave, we already have begun another round on a new thread…dont tale it personal….:-0

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By Folktruther, October 31, 2009 at 10:54 am Link to this comment

You have goats, Leefeller.  I thought you had cats.  Do you live on a farm?

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By DaveZx3, October 31, 2009 at 9:57 am Link to this comment

By ardee, October 31 at 10:16 am #

RE: Hitler Post
“My response to Christian was based upon your completely and disgustingly out of line use of hate”.

Politics and religion might separate us by miles, but you are a true gentleman.

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By David Ehrenstein, October 31, 2009 at 7:23 am Link to this comment

“I’m sorry for your pain and loss, truly.  I can probably guess what they all died from, and I find it disgusting that it was allowed to go on so long—even today the drug companies put their profits and patents ahead of the lives that are being lost.”

Before you get to the drug companies, make a pit-stop at Ronald Reagan, who refused to so much as MENTION AIDS as the disease raged on and on.

“But that doesn’t give YOU the right to deny the value or truth of other people’s pain and loss.

Or to judge what I have or haven’t seen or lost.”

I don’t know what you’re talking about. You sound hysterical.

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By ardee, October 31, 2009 at 7:16 am Link to this comment

Hitler posits:
Don’t be so naive, ardee, christian96 is an obvious troll.  There’s no consistency in anything he says post to post, topic to topic.  He’s clearly making sh*t up as he goes.  The sad thing is that he’s not even a very skillful troll (being so easy to bait), yet you still fell for it.

Am I naive…possibly, am I concerned , at this moment, with the truth or falsehood of the posts of Christian96, nope again.

My response to Christian was based upon your completely and disgustingly out of line use of hate.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 31, 2009 at 7:07 am Link to this comment

David Ehrenstein, October 30 at 11:55 pm #

My share of life. And my share of death.

I am 62 years old and 3/4 of the people I loved most in this world DIED from about the mid-80’s all the way through the 90’s.

I’m sure that means nothing to you.
**********************************************

You know nothing about me or what means anything to me.  Or what I have faced.

I’m sorry for your pain and loss, truly.  I can probably guess what they all died from, and I find it disgusting that it was allowed to go on so long—even today the drug companies put their profits and patents ahead of the lives that are being lost.

But that doesn’t give YOU the right to deny the value or truth of other people’s pain and loss.

Or to judge what I have or haven’t seen or lost.

Philosophic myopia and tunnel vision sours sympathy and empathy.

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By David Ehrenstein, October 31, 2009 at 5:47 am Link to this comment

“How did 3/4 of your loved ones die?”

AIDS.

Heard of it?

It’s still around you know. No cure. Just treatments that keep the funeral homes from fillijg up too quickly.

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By christian96, October 31, 2009 at 12:57 am Link to this comment

By David Ehrenstein, October 30 at 11:55 pm #


My share of life. And my share of death.

I am 62 years old and 3/4 of the people I loved most in this world DIED from about the mid-80’s all the way through the 90’s.

I’m sure that means nothing to you.


David the death of your loved ones does mean something to me.  I am 69 and lost all my immediiate
family(mother, father, two younger sisters) from
July 31, 1995 to May 26, 2003 to smoking cigarettes.
If I knew a lawyer that would sue the tobacco industry for the physical and emotional deprivation
I and my nieces and nephews have suffered I would
hire that lawyer in a heartbeat. But enough about
my problems.  I’m concerned about your suffering.
How did 3/4 of your loved ones die?  If you are
willing to be honest and share that information I
will respond to you in the best way I can!  We all
suffer in various ways on earth but at the same time
we are fortunate to be sharing earth together at the
same time.  We need to help one another in our
suffering in our time together on earth.  I support
several starving children around the earth through
financially supporting organizations like World
Vision, Feed The Children, and Christian Children’s
Fund.  I hate to see so much money being wasted
on selfishness by people purchasing STUFF they don’t
need but want.  I hate to see countries spending so
much money on war machines for destruction when that
money could be spent on designing a world in which
ALL peoples NEEDS are met.  Please tell me what
caused your loved ones to die.  I’ll try to help in
any way I can.

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By David Ehrenstein, October 30, 2009 at 8:55 pm Link to this comment

My share of life. And my share of death.

I am 62 years old and 3/4 of the people I loved most in this world DIED from about the mid-80’s all the way through the 90’s.

I’m sure that means nothing to you.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 30, 2009 at 8:23 pm Link to this comment

David Ehrenstein, October 30 at 9:13 am #

“I don’t claim to have seen it all, but I’ve sure seen my share.”

Your share of WHAT?
*************************************************

Jackasses. And I see one more….

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, October 30, 2009 at 7:13 pm Link to this comment

Christian 96 and I have had a few go arounds, used to be about his gospel bible spewing s, then we have heard heard different C96 storys like the one of him walking around in a electrical storm in his shorts, (he was referring to coinkydinks in some C96 way) also the fact he seems to like and use certain words most non Christians would never use and which I usually do not use, seems amusing and I have sort grown accustom to the bible stuff,  because I know C96 is happy and it always reminds me to go tend my goats. C96 is like the hole in the wall, it needs fixing, but seems I do not have the correct materials. 

I also do not suspect him of being troll, he just seems mostly just annoying in disagreement, which sort of what we do here?

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By Inherit The Wind, October 30, 2009 at 4:50 pm Link to this comment

No, Christian has been posting for a long time now.  He’s not a troll.

He’s frequently a royal pain in butt, and frequently I think he’s totally out of line, obnoxious, and condescending but I don’t think he’s a troll.

That’s IMHO.

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, October 30, 2009 at 3:16 pm Link to this comment

For christian96:

Hmmm, let’s see.  There was a Lupo’s Hot Dogs in Fairmont, WV and a black guy named Arthur Carl Warren murdered in Grant Town WV on July 4, 2000.  The guy was physically and mentally handicapped and was essentially abducted by a couple of 17 year old thugs who beat him nearly to death before running him over to make the injuries look like a hit and run.

Whether or not you’re truly a relative, your crock-of-shit story about Warren’s past molestation of the boys is clearly just another attempt by the inbred whites of the area to justify an overt hate crime. 

But the truth is you’re a troll.

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By Anarcissie, October 30, 2009 at 1:53 pm Link to this comment

Sodium—believe nothing until it has been officially denied three times.

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By christian96, October 30, 2009 at 11:26 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind and Ardee—-You are both correct.
I lost my cool when I read David Ehrenstein’s
comment that you can kill a fag and get away with
murder.  My 84 year old uncle is the only one left
on my father’s side of the family.  His grandson
was one of the two boys involved(my 2nd cousin).
I’ve watched my uncle and other family members suffer
since the incident on July 4, 2000.  I was standing
outside the courthouse when a heavy black lady ask,
“Are you a relative to the boys involved?”  When I
responded to the affirmative she ask, “I’m from
The Washington Post. Would you mind if I ask you a
few questions?”  I said, “No, I don’‘t mind.  Let’s
go across the street to Lupo’s Hot Dogs and sit in
a booth.”  During the questioning she ask, “Do you
think race was involved?”  I responded, “No, I don’t
think race was a factor.  The boys have been friends
with the victim for years.  Our town is small.  We
all know one another.  There are a few racist in
town but there are racist in every town. No, I definitely do not believe race was an issue.”  She
went back to Washington and printed a front page
article in which she said after interviewing a
relative of the boys that racism was an issue in the
matter. The complete opposite of what I had told her. I guess she had some sort of black agenda she
was trying to support.  I should not have made the
comment of possibly knocking Hitler’s teeth out. It
was not the Christian thing to do.  Hitler and David
Ehrenstein have enough problems.  They don’t need
any from me. On the Sunday following the incident
on July 4th, 2000 as I was walking from the Methodist Church to my car I looked over at the
Baptist Church where the black people in town go.
I knew the victim’s parents were probably in the
church.  I walked over to the church entered and
sat in the back.  After the hymn “Don’t Let Jesus
Catch You With Your Work Undone” the preacher ask,
“Is there something you wish to say?”  I arose and
said, “Yes Sir.  I would like to apologize for my
family for the incident a few days ago.  I wish I
could bring the victim back but I can’t.  I can only
say that I’m sorry.”  Then, I turned and left the
church.  That was more of what a Christian should
do rather than threatening to knock someone’s teeth
out.

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By elisalouisa, October 30, 2009 at 8:07 am Link to this comment

Truedigger3: Nice to have you back. You are correct as to the fact that BBC and
Al-Jazeera are more careful and skillful in their lies. Still, they add an
international flavor to the news, the viewpoint is more international.

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By Sodium, October 30, 2009 at 7:51 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: Truediger3,October 30 at 9:13 am.

Quote
======

Al-Jazeera and BBC serve the same masters as our Main
Stream Media but are more clever since Al-Jazeera and BBC broadcast to an international viewers,they are more careful with their lies and more skillful.

Unquote
========

Truedigger3,

Just for the sake of coming close to the “truth”,let me say that I agree with your comments quoted above.

Will you please tell me from where exactly you gather your daily news in order to keep abreast with the human events on daily basis? I sincerely want to learn from you and follow your steps to come close to the “truth”. Please advise. Thank you.

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By David Ehrenstein, October 30, 2009 at 6:13 am Link to this comment

“I don’t claim to have seen it all, but I’ve sure seen my share.”

Your share of WHAT?

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By truedigger3, October 30, 2009 at 6:13 am Link to this comment

elisalouisa wrote:
“Main stream media is a propaganda drama that I can no longer stomach. Al-Jazeera and BBC are among my favorites”
____________________________________________________

Al-Jazeera and BBC serve the same masters as our Main Stream Media but are more clever.
Since both Al-Jazeera and BBC broadcast to an international viewers, they are more careful with their lies and more skillful.
Let us say they put poisenous pieces of candy in an enticing plate full of sweets.!!!

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By David Ehrenstein, October 30, 2009 at 6:11 am Link to this comment

“IF this man molested a 12 year old then my disgust with him would be equal to Christian’s but I would not call him “queer”—gay/straight is irrelevant when it comes to child sexual abuse.  You are assuming Christian is lying about this.”

I KNOW he’s lying about this. As has just been pointed out he’s an obvious troll.

Your prejudices are showing.

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By truedigger3, October 30, 2009 at 5:57 am Link to this comment

jayjay wrote:
“However, the president has operated in an environment that has become increasingly socialistic, Marxist.”
__________________________________________________

What are you talking about?!. Is giving hundreds of billions of dollars to Wall St. socialistic Marxist???!!  Is putting the insurance/pharma/medical companies first above the health and the wellbeing of the common folks socialistic Marxist???!!.
Please stop listening to Hanity and Rush Limbaugh and try to think about and analyse what you hear and read.

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, October 30, 2009 at 5:38 am Link to this comment

By ardee, October 29 at 6:30 pm #


“christian96, October 29 at 3:02 pm #

We seldom see eye to eye but I do respect your passion and your ability to put sentences together in a coherent fashion. Thus I urge you to ignore the two mouth breathers who cannot post sans homophobic references.

It is far from your fault they both seem uncomfortable with their own masculinity, now is it?”


Don’t be so naive, ardee, christian96 is an obvious troll.  There’s no consistency in anything he says post to post, topic to topic.  He’s clearly making sh*t up as he goes.  The sad thing is that he’s not even a very skillful troll (being so easy to bait), yet you still fell for it.

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By elisalouisa, October 30, 2009 at 5:22 am Link to this comment

Sodium:I took the time this a.m. to read your post of June 26, 2008 12:26 am.
under Chris Hedges’ column ‘The Hedonists of Power.’  My continual journey in
seeking truth is similar to yours. Main stream media is a propaganda drama
that I can no longer stomach. Al-Jazeera and BBC are among my favorites.
There is one channel I picked up upon the recommendation of a TD poster,
(thanks to whoever posted it) and that is LINK. The evening world news on
that channel is worth watching. The latest outrage on mainstream media
are the passports that were “found” along the Afghan border that “may be
linked to 9/11.” Remember when through all the rumble of the 9/11 disaster
passports were found that belonged to members of a terrorist group? Are the
American people going to swallow the latest passport propaganda? I don’t
know but this tells you that they plan to escalate the war in Afghanistan. If
Obama continues on the same disastrous course he will be a one term
President and if another 9/11 incident happens a Republican President even
more fascist than Bush/Cheney will be the outcome of the 2012 election. What
we must do to prevent this is to get others to see the light just as we did. Can
this be done? The hypnotic affect of Fox News has taken its toll and the power
elite my well succeed in gaining complete control.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 30, 2009 at 3:45 am Link to this comment

David Ehrenstein, October 30 at 12:22 am #

Well I can.

I’m 62 and I’ve seen—and heard—it all.
*******************************************

No, you are assuming, not inferring. There is a difference.

IF this man molested a 12 year old then my disgust with him would be equal to Christian’s but I would not call him “queer”—gay/straight is irrelevant when it comes to child sexual abuse.  You are assuming Christian is lying about this.

IF the 17-year olds’ PD was incompetent then my disgust with the PD would be equal to Christian’s.

Why do you assume Christian is lying about these two things?

I do not defend Christian’s almost pathological aversion to Gays—it’s disgusting and made worse by the usual attempts to justify it by the Bible. 

I came to terms with my own aversions (of which I am heartily ashamed) many years ago when my logic told me it was NONE of my business what happily consenting adults do—and I am OBLIGATED by my moral code to defend that concept is being as fundamental as any other right—especially against legal and violent attacks.  Sometimes personal shame in yourself, based on logic, becomes the dominant emotion and can push out of you the evil ones.

If there’s anything I believe in it’s that logic and a sound moral code can influence and control your emotions—that your emotions ULTIMATELY reflect what you truly believe—and your logic can affect what you truly believe, therefore altering your emotions.

I do not defend his threats to knock another poster’s teeth out—that is usually grounds for TD to warn, suspend or ban a poster.

I do not defend his fundamental failure as a “Christian”—when the going gets tough or he gets mad he reverts to thuggery. (That seems SO typical of bible-thumpers!)

I’m in my mid-50’s—touting your age doesn’t impress me. I don’t claim to have seen it all, but I’ve sure seen my share.

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By David Ehrenstein, October 29, 2009 at 9:22 pm Link to this comment

Well I can.

I’m 62 and I’ve seen—and heard—it all.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 29, 2009 at 6:15 pm Link to this comment

David Ehrenstein, October 29 at 9:05 pm #

“He was not a “queer” or a “fag”—he was a CHILD ABUSER and CHILD ABUSERS are ALL equally evil whether they are homo or hetero sexual in their choice of victims.”

Why are you taking his homophobic blather at face value. To lower life-forms like him ALL ga men are Child Abusers.
**************************************************

I cannot infer that.

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By David Ehrenstein, October 29, 2009 at 6:05 pm Link to this comment

“He was not a “queer” or a “fag”—he was a CHILD ABUSER and CHILD ABUSERS are ALL equally evil whether they are homo or hetero sexual in their choice of victims.”

Why are you taking his homophobic blather at face value. To lower life-forms like him ALL ga men are Child Abusers.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 29, 2009 at 5:17 pm Link to this comment

Christian:
Far be it for me to side with GW Hitler, but your reaction to him was decidely NOT what is described as “Christian” but more indicative of the Christians of the Crusades and Inquisition.

I actually understood that these two drunken teens lured this CHILD ABUSER to this house where they killed him.  I also understand that incompetent and inexperienced PDs were unable to introduce ameliorating circumstances due to their ineffectualness.

He was not a “queer” or a “fag”—he was a CHILD ABUSER and CHILD ABUSERS are ALL equally evil whether they are homo or hetero sexual in their choice of victims.  (let’s avoid the situation where a 16 year old boy is charged with child abuse for sleeping with his 15 1/2 year old girlfriend and her father is pissed…)

I agree, Christian: you need to re-evaluate.  If your so-called “Christian” values fail you when you are put under stress (even by an internet poster) then I don’t believe you are truly committed to them. You don’t need those values much in ordinary life, but rather when things are toughest.

Think about it.

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By elisalouisa, October 29, 2009 at 4:33 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther: Your humor and wit add the right touch just at a time when we begin to take ourselves too seriously. I can also see humor in my theories but hey wondering why things are as they are and then coming up with a “maybe” can be fun. I trust you see it that way also. Thanks for your post.

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By ardee, October 29, 2009 at 3:30 pm Link to this comment

christian96, October 29 at 3:02 pm #

We seldom see eye to eye but I do respect your passion and your ability to put sentences together in a coherent fashion. Thus I urge you to ignore the two mouth breathers who cannot post sans homophobic references.

It is far from your fault they both seem uncomfortable with their own masculinity, now is it?

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By dihey, October 29, 2009 at 2:49 pm Link to this comment

I hope that Mr. Kucinich will oppose Mr. Obama in the 2012 primaries and that his mantra will be: “character one can believe in!”

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By Sodium, October 29, 2009 at 1:51 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To: elisalouisa.

elisa,

Please take it easy with Leefeller. His posts are among the least offensive,as far as I am concerned,because of the element of sarcasm he usually invokes in them. He enjoys doing that and I,for one,enjoy reading them.

He sounds like a real pro when it comes to sarcasm which he practices on articles/columns,Hedges,posts and posters,including me,and more importantly on himself. For example,in one of his posts lately,he said that he started a new experience with Hedges’column: he turned it upside-down and read it. As soon as I finished reading that,I just bursted with laughter. My wife gave me a wondering look,the expression of which as saying: are you getting crazy?

elisa,he is a lot of fun,as far as I am concerned. When it comes to serious issues,he has his own flaw like all of us who post seriously all the time. Perhaps,just perhaps,his easy going and sarcastic ways are healthier for the heart and mind. Just perhaps.

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By Leefeller, October 29, 2009 at 1:33 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther,

Soon, as the blood stops rushing to me head, meantime humility takes a bit longer getting down to me hands.

“After all, you have so much to be humble about.” taken humbly from a humble associate in humble disagreement.

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By Folktruther, October 29, 2009 at 12:58 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller, I can’t tell you how much I admire your apporach of critizing an atticle without having read it.  So I won’t.  But Elisa is quite sincere and actually reads and ponders the articles, and forms theories related to them.  I would suggest a certain humility is in order in debating her.  After all, you have so much to be humble about.

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, October 29, 2009 at 12:38 pm Link to this comment

For christian96:

I think you better return to the writing lab for a refresher.  You’ve not organized the details of your original account very well.  Initially, you claim that the boys were 17 when they killed the fag and that the fag began abusing one of them when he was 12.  Now you claim they both were 12.  Would that be their age when the murder took place or when the abuse started?  Because if they were 12 when the murder took place, they should have been tried as juveniles, but if they were 12 when the abuse began, why on earth would they still be hanging out with the abuser when they were 17 unless they actually enjoyed blowing black and slurping up the “mark” of Satan? 

I think it’s also fair to point out that for a person with a doctorate in counseling, you seem to have a lot of anger-management issues.  And while I find it admirable that you were able to overcome the criminal impulses of your youth, I suspect that you haven’t yet fully recovered from the time you obviously spent as someone’s jailhouse “girlfriend”.

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By Leefeller, October 29, 2009 at 12:35 pm Link to this comment

Just an observation, resolve seems is so far apart here on this thread, why would one expect more from society as a whole?

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By David Ehrenstein, October 29, 2009 at 12:30 pm Link to this comment

You’ve obviously sucked a lot of cock “christian96.”

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By Leefeller, October 29, 2009 at 11:36 am Link to this comment

elisalouisa,

It was brought to my attention, some artists paint their subjects while upside down, mostly for objective perception, not to be influenced by distractions of any sort. So, I have decided to do the same thing with Hedges article and to look at it from a very different perspective. 

Commenting on Hedges article while upside down has become a greater challenge than anticipated, the main problem I find, is the blood rushing to my head and my fingers becoming numb.

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By David Ehrenstein, October 29, 2009 at 11:10 am Link to this comment

Charming relatives you have,  christian96.

“Now, you
take those facts and print it in one of your queer
magazines.”

Planning to beat up a “fag” or two yourself I see.

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, October 29, 2009 at 11:06 am Link to this comment

For christian96:

So your cousins were abused by a drug-using older black fag, but they still routinely consented to fraternizing, drinking, and smoking dope with him?  Me really do thinks they doth protest too much!

Apparently they didn’t spend enough time on Jesus’ psychotherapy couch.  He could have warned them that once you blow black you never go back.

I hope you’ve made it clear to them that they are now beyond salvation and will spend eternity among black homosexuals trying to wipe Satan’s “mark” off their faces.  And the lake of fire, blah, blah, blah….

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By Jerry Lagadec, October 29, 2009 at 10:59 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Suck on this”? This is eloquence? Friedman is sooo macho. If I were gay, I might be turned on, but as a veteran I get a bit irritated at such tough talk and locker room vebiage from people like him. The very tactic of attaching those two bills- hate crime and war funding- speaks to such a fundamental cynicism and exploitation that I am at a loss to even fathom the depths to which we have sunk in these last throes of empire. We’ll see how"open” this society is when real dissent begins to occur. We’ve already had a taste of it during the past decade. It is so telling of the climate of this country that I have had to leave public places for just reading books that others find offensive. It usually begins with “what are you reading” and when my answer is -for example- “Confessions of an Economic Hitman” by John Perkins, the conversation is downhill after that.Forget the fact that most of these yahoos never served a day in uniform in their paunchy lives; in fact, I’ve had more productive conversations with other veterans who have experienced first hand the madness and futility of bringing peace with the barrel of a gun. It’s still “fornicating for virtue”, as far as I am concerned. It’s all so simple when you don’t have the patience or the stamina to do the work that is required to understand complex situations. We really don’t learn from history…unless we have the “freedom” to interpret it for others. Oh, another worthwhile read: “Empire of Illusions” also by Chris Hedges.

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