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Where Did All These Marchers Come From?

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Posted on Sep 18, 2009
Flick / MeetTheCrazies
Josh Silver from FreePress.net joins us to discuss the Glenn Beck phenomenon, Obama's health care plan and our country's dependence on for-profit media.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, September 24, 2009 at 3:13 pm Link to this comment

Your electronic vote in the 2010 election has just been bought

by Bob Fitrakis & Harvey Wasserman

September 24, 2009

Unless US Attorney General Eric Holder intervenes, your electronic vote in 2010 will probably be owned by the Republican-connected ES&S Corporation. With 80% ownership of America’s electronic voting machines, ES&S could have the power to shape America’s future with a few proprietary keystrokes.

http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2009/3543

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By MarthaA, September 23, 2009 at 10:51 am Link to this comment

SturatH,

Only foolish citizens who are a part of the 70% MAJORITY Common Population will vote for Republicans after what has been done to our country by Republicans.

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By ardee, September 22, 2009 at 2:37 pm Link to this comment

thelibertarian, September 22 at 1:47 pm #

To the best of my knowledge Dennis Kucinich doesn’t affiliate with ‘Stormfront’, whereas Dr. Paul does.

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By ocjim, September 22, 2009 at 2:14 pm Link to this comment

A MSNBC camera saw them being coached by a representative of Fox Noise. Is it a surprise that Fox Noise is on the side of the leeches who profit from health care.

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By thelibertarian, September 22, 2009 at 10:58 am Link to this comment

By the way, who owns you? (warning explicit lyrics)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMAwb5hPyqM&feature=player_embedded#t=277

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By thelibertarian, September 22, 2009 at 10:47 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind
I wasn’t going to post in this room again as i can see its not making any difference.
Kuchinich and Ron Paul are friends. In fact, when the GOP was in charge and the democrats were having trouble setting up hearings on the dead and injured in Iraq, Paul set one up for Kuchinich. 
The big difference in Kuchinich and Paul is trust of central planners.  Kuchinich, as much as he is disappointed by them, still thinks they can be trusted to provide domestic policies for all.
When a GOP or other group you disagree with, gets control again, will you be happy with their ideas about your health care delivery system?  I can foresee much gnashing of teeth.
As CS Lewis said-
“Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.  It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies.”
“The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
We are headed directly into the headlights of tyranny of the majority.  The idea that the individual is supreme is gone.
Again may i recommend ‘the road to serfdom’ readers digest version. its free on the net.  We are now taking our cue on policy from the European nations that were bombed into rubble just 60 years ago… they are again planning from the center and will end with the same outcome again and again.

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By StuartH, September 22, 2009 at 9:10 am Link to this comment

The problem in 2010 is going to be the question of how complexity plays in
the burbs.

A lot of people are upset by things being unsettled and too complex to digest
quickly.  The irony is that the Bush Administration played down a lot of things
and created a lot of pigeons coming home to roost for Obama to deal with. 

These aren’t just ordinary pigeons, either.  These are Godzilla like monster pigeons that can lay waste to vast swaths like no Visigoth ever could dream of.  Obama is being blamed for
embracing complexity and taking on a series of deeply serious issues, on a scale we have never really seen before. 

What frightens people is the real world revealed, without the fake used car salesman paint and assurances that everything is fine and nothing has fundamentally changed since the 1950s. 

So now suddenly a lot of people think the ‘50s have been repealed in the last few months and want it back. 

How many of the suburban swing voters are going to be fooled by Fox News and the right wing media echo chamber into voting for Republicans?

Stay tuned.  There are a lot of people working to support progressives, like the Act Blue online fundraising campaign that raised over a million and a half in just two days to oppose Joe “You Lie” Wilson.  But this election will be a test.  Certainly the unions, and those Democrats they supported in the last go-round who then turned around and are now opposing the public option in health care reform are on a collision course. 

Will we wind up with more Republicans?  Will we wind up with a stronger progressive element in Congress?  At this point it could go either way and the margin will very likely be very tight.

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By Louise, September 22, 2009 at 9:04 am Link to this comment

Fat Freddy,

“Instead of a natural business cycle, we get boom/bust investment bubbles.”

That’s pretty remarkable. Takes reality and condenses it down to one simple but very insightful sentence. The natural inclination is to break it down define and explain. But that sentence says it all.

Oh well, when did that ever stop me? smile

Perhaps we need to ask ourselves, when did investment become more important than business? And when did the shareholder become more important than the folks who do the work? And when did politicians decide shareholders and the corporations they feed off are more important than the product, or the consumer?

And finally, when was the decision made to elevate shareholders and CEO’s to the position of God? Able to make or break a corporation, and able to make determinations about value based on their bottom line rather than the value of the Corporation, the folks who do the work, the product and the consumer.

As has been noted, all things should be based on the value to the whole. However since all things actually are based on the value to the smallest, non-producing factor in the equation, it shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone that things tend to work out better for the smallest, non-producing factor, at the expense of the whole. Our fixation on how the Wall Street market is doing pretty well proves that. So who shall we blame? Wall Street, CNBC, the shareholders, the greedy CEO or the frankly not to bright politician?

Maybe we need to blame the frankly not to bright voter. But that’s not fair either, because a lot of voters are bright and do work hard to get ahead and are hamstrung by years and years of being lied to. Every time there is a shift in politics, somebody gets hurt. And since the two prevailing political parties stand on opposite sides of the money and power spectrum, a voter can pretty well figure out which side of the spectrum will best serve his needs.

But as always, when the politics in place favor corporate wealth and power, and shareholder needs above the value of the folks who do the work, the workers get hurt. And since those who favor the few over the many often rule in eight or twelve year cycles, the damage they do can take generations to recover from. And even worse, because of the few who don’t get it, anger overcomes reason causing a shift back and placing the power, once again in the party that favors the rich and powerful.

Long way of saying,
“Instead of a natural business cycle, we get boom/bust investment bubbles.”

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By Louise, September 22, 2009 at 8:42 am Link to this comment

“Where Did All These Marchers Come From?”

All one needs to do is find someone who’s angry. Then feed on that anger. Then find a way to pull the many angry into one noisy whole. Then give them signs, a little cash, a bus to ride in and a venue to vent their rage. All the while praising them for the rightness of their cause, and they will come. Not because they understand the cause, share the same views, or even like the smelly screamer next to them, but because they are angry.

Anger overcomes reason and a feeling of helplessness and hopelessness can set in. The wise but not to honest Corporate and political interest knows that, so they give the angry solace by allowing them to believe they are doing something to solve whatever problem made them angry. The strange thing is that because the angry are molded into a mob, they often do the bidding of the very groups who cause the problem that feeds their anger.

Why don’t Liberals do the same thing? Simple. Liberals try to avoid creating anger and have nothing but disdain for manipulating people in such a low-brow fashion. Besides, Liberals having great inherent respect for individual rights, also have a great sense of self-respect, so are rarely pulled into a mob.

And then there is the ‘can’t agree’ factor. The mob doesn’t need to agree on anything, they just need to be angry. Liberals understand their own views and try to find common ground in the other. So while the angry conservative burns down the city, the thoughtful Liberal discusses plans for building a new city.

Meanwhile, no-one is putting out the fire. Least of all the rich and powerful corporate and political interests who feed the fire.

Glenn Beck is a recovering drug and alcohol addict, who has been diagnosed as having Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. But in spite of that, he’s had several best-sellers published. So don’t give up all you angry people. You too can enjoy the rewards of success if you just remember to appeal to mans lower nature.

Perhaps the Glenn Beck phenomenon can best be summed up by the following quote:

“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy: that is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.”
John Kenneth Galbraith

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By Night-Gaunt, September 22, 2009 at 8:37 am Link to this comment

I understand the concept but how does one go against a system in need of reworking or dismangling? (Typo but I like it,I meant dismantling.) For the present system is mangled and a caricature of what our system theoretically represents for us.

We should have equal amounts of money and time on the air for each candidate to present their points. No surrogates no private funding of campaigns and it would be nice if they didn’t last two years either. We need to say that giving money to campaigns is not free speech, is in fact paid for speech and bribery. Until the system is fixed you are doomed to fight mountian sized giants at every turn. You might succeed but it is very difficult. Various laws both local and national have been written to make sure such upstarts not part of the crypto-fascist party to get in and dilute what the shadow core of the two-headed party, who spent years infiltrating both of them to begin with, lose their power. We certainly do want to do that, along with Greens and some others need to do the infiltration game to alter the system. While we still have time that is.

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By MarthaA, September 22, 2009 at 7:08 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie,

The Mid-Term Elections are the key to true political progress for the “Left”, so that the Democratic Leadership Council, DLC, toadies of the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Republicans can be removed as cooperators and facilitators of the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Republican Party Agenda at the expense of the 70% MAJORITY Common Population of the United States as a Class and Culture; every Common Population candidate that replaces a DLC candidate in the Mid-Term Elections will improve the Democratic Party and make it more representative of the 70% MAJORITY Common Population of the United States as a Class and Culture; it is a process and we must be aware and eternally vigilant not to lose sight of the goal and the prize: “A Democratic Party that represents the 70% MAJORITY Common Population of the United States as a Class and Culture that is free of infestation by DLC toadies for the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Republican Party.”

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By Anarcissie, September 21, 2009 at 4:01 pm Link to this comment

I’m just saying that I think there is going to be a certain window of opportunity for leftish, progressive politicians in the next year or so, whether they’re Democrats, Greens, or something else.  These include people who are already in office.  That is, there will be an opportunity if they want it.

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By ardee, September 21, 2009 at 2:55 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie, September 21 at 4:43 pm #

I am pretty sure trying to start at the top will not succeed.  I am not an expert at the practice of bourgeois politics, but it seems to me the most likely place for dissident liberals, progressives, etc., to make a noticeable splash is in the Congressional elections in 2010. 

There are only a couple of ways one can influence a Democratic candidate to adopt progressive platforms in a campaign; either with a write in or mass demonstration during the campaign, or by purchasing that candidate as the corporations do. I doubt whether either solution is possible. Further I cannot see, at this time, how one might force the Democrats to put up a candidate who is an actual progressive.

In order to run against the established candidate one must understand that it costs about ten million to field a candidate for the Senate, at least in a densely populated area. Probably a few million less for the House.

This may seem as if I am pessimistic but I am not, honest. What I am is a realist, and noting the difficulty involved in getting politicians elected who actually represent the people’s interests is not the same as saying it is impossible.

I work to promote the Green Party, an uphill task, especially when I am not a Green myself, only an advocate of third party politics. But , to combat the Duopoly that is our political system one needs organization and funds, only obtainable with a growing political party able to mobilize its base.

This will succeed but it has one basic flaw , it is a slow process in a society seeking instant gratification.

Does anyone know another way?

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By Anarcissie, September 21, 2009 at 1:43 pm Link to this comment

I am pretty sure trying to start at the top will not succeed.  I am not an expert at the practice of bourgeois politics, but it seems to me the most likely place for dissident liberals, progressives, etc., to make a noticeable splash is in the Congressional elections in 2010.  Presumably the progs would not necessarily explicitly secede from the Democratic Party but issue a series of principles (stop the war, Single Payer, bail out the people not Wall Street, etc.) and run on them in both the primaries and the general election, not only against Republicans but insufficiently proggy Democrats as well.  Since some of them already hold office they would be likely to get at least a few of their number in and might actually do quite well.  At that point they could threaten the Democratic Party establishment with secession. 

This is the nearest electoral alternative I can think of to the established order that Mr. Hedges has been ranting about.  And it involves doing something instead of crying.

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By Night-Gaunt, September 21, 2009 at 10:08 am Link to this comment

Now all we have to do is to see if anyone will be allowed to run and get the nomination that is a real Liberal or Progressive in the Democratic Party. There aren’t many and they are frozen out like Kucinich or Feingold etc (should he run) in a party that is being overrun with the same types that have done in the Republican party.

Also there is our voting system that isn’t even up to the clean standards of the Ukraine. No UN observers allowed in our “free country” to see if the voting, tallying and collation are above board. Until then we shall be getting 6-of-one or half a dozen of the other.

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By Anarcissie, September 21, 2009 at 9:22 am Link to this comment

I agree with Tropicgirl.  Mr. O has studiously frosted off the left of the Democratic Party since May of 2008.  While they are not very numerous they are the soul of the party, its moral and intellectual sparkplug, so to speak, and they are pretty much gone now.  They are not attacking Obama very loudly, possibly because of his race, possibly because of the grotesque public stupidity of his rightist opponents, but they are not going to do anything to help him.  They might even set up another party.  The results will show up in 2010 and 2012.

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By tropicgirl, September 21, 2009 at 9:11 am Link to this comment

Fredmoz—
There is not much of a rally for Obama by the Democrats because, I believe,
Obama has lost them in his failure to push for real healthcare reform.

People are burned and laying low for now. I have said this before.

And this is a preview of the upcoming election.

Obama does not want to accept how much political trouble he is in.

Just my opinion, but when the elderly turn against you, the gays turn against
you, the anti-war people turn against you, the torture justice-seekers turn
against you and the real healthcare reform advocates, nurses and doctors, turn
against you because you trashed single payer and public option, then that is
the silence you are hearing.

Besides, fighting is not good for anyone, you could get a finger bitten off…

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By fredmoz, September 21, 2009 at 8:49 am Link to this comment

I really don’t care to know where they came from but I like to know and I will participate why there isn’t a DC rally supporting Heath Care (NOT only Insurance) reform with public option. I read this “why aren’t there rallies in support of President Obama’s agenda?” in our local paper letter to editor and I was wondering myself. The writer was a right winger but his question is valid. Instead of appearing on 5 1/2 (1/2 is Letterman) show to talk about Health Care (O is now using Insurance instead) reform, wasn’t it more forceful if we had a rally in DC?Could someone answer.

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By Inherit The Wind, September 20, 2009 at 1:23 pm Link to this comment

To “The Libertarian”:
I can’t believe you can’t see the fundamental idiocy of this citation of yours:


3) Here is Keynes special forward for the 1936 German version of his book:
“The theory of aggregate production, which is the point of the following book, nevertheless can be much easier adapted to the conditions of a TOTALITARIAN STATE (my caps) than the theory of production and distribution of a given production put forth under conditions of free competition and a large degree of laissez-faire. This is one of the reasons that justifies the fact that I call my theory a general theory.” “

Who was ruling Germany in 1936? Hitler!  Do you POSSIBLY think they could have cooked Keynes’ intro to actively support National Socialism? Maybe? Possibly?  And why would you cite THAT edition rather than the UK edition?

Remember: They also put out a forgery at this time supposedly by Ben Franklin that has him attacking Jews as eternally evil—the man who gave 5 pounds to a synagogue being built in Philly back when 5 pounds was the equivalent of $3000.—in today’s money.

Modern “freshwater” economics will say or do anything to justify a total lack of restrictions on corporations.

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By Anarcissie, September 20, 2009 at 10:10 am Link to this comment

thelibertarian:
’“I prefer the workers owning the means of production, better chance of a real wage for services rendered.”  Why don’t they, Night-Gaunt? What is stopping them? ...’

My theory is that it is something I call “the shadow of slavery”, a sort of cultural overhang (or hangover) from the thousands of years that most of the human race was reduced to servitude.  Culture does not usually change easily or quickly and consequently new conditions do not always bring about new ways of thinking, for instance, the lord-vassal relationship becomes an (inexact) model for the employer-employee relationship, and even today employees are astounded when they are laid off because they assumed a sort of feudal relation existed between them and their employer and company, binding them together as lord and vassal and serf were once bound.

Fat Freddy—thanks for the lyrics.  They are apt.  I think there is something about “one more fix” from Ministry, too, that may be apropos.

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By Fat Freddy, September 20, 2009 at 7:21 am Link to this comment

Otherwise it becomes cutthroat with only those who can play the game survive and the rest are either worked to an early grave or, die early or become just as ruthless

Remind me of a song by Soundgarden.


I woke the same as any other day
Except a voice was in my head
It said seize the day, pull the trigger
Drop the blade, and watch the rolling heads

The day I tried to live
I stole a thousand beggars change
And gave it to the rich

The day I tried to win
I dangled from the power lines
And let the martyrs stretch
Singing

One more time around might do it
One more time around might make it
One more time around might do it
One more time around
The day I tried to live

Words you say never seem
To live up to the ones inside your head
The lives we make never seem
To ever get us anywhere but dead

The day I tried to live
I wallowed in the blood and mud with
All the other pigs

I woke the same as any other day you know
I should have stayed in bed

The day I tried to win
I wallowed in the blood and mud with
All the other pigs

And I learned that I was a liar
Just like you

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By godistwaddle, September 20, 2009 at 4:08 am Link to this comment

When you disdain “book-larnin,’” and “pointy-headed intellectuals, eventually this is your voting public.

The Chinese,  and Indians do NOT disdain learning, and our video-gaming kids, living on wonderfully arable land,  will provide useful stoop labor for their Asian masters.

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By Night-Gaunt, September 19, 2009 at 8:42 pm Link to this comment

Anarchism for the individual with a socialist cushion for all but the spirit of creativity must be allowed to burn. Just so it doesn’t burn us all up like lately. A balance in nature so must we also have here. Otherwise it becomes cutthroat with only those who can play the game survive and the rest are either worked to an early grave or, die early or become just as ruthless. Just as totalitarian, just done by the business instead of a gov’t. If you like it fine, just lets not have it here. How about Green Idaho? [We could make that a laboratory for such ideas to live, using volunteers of course. Opt out anytime. Just a thought.]

Why is it that no one else wants our kind of health care system unless they are rich and have no scruples?

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By thelibertarian, September 19, 2009 at 7:21 pm Link to this comment

“I prefer the workers owning the means of production, better chance of a real wage for services rendered.”  Why don’t they, Night-Gaunt? What is stopping them?
Sometimes I try to imagine with the elite wall street, federal reserve and DC moving all the money up the ladder to their own wallets and their contributors’, how Henry Ford would manage to put his ideals to work without stifling regulations written mostly to keep out the little guy and labor’s demands from retarding his efforts.  And his initiative employed millions at high wages over the generations. Sadly we produce little and we stifle many entrepreneurs dreams.

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By thelibertarian, September 19, 2009 at 7:09 pm Link to this comment

1) I’m female but it should not matter based on views.
2) i had a $2000 deductible for several years.  I found cash discounts from doctors up to 30%, found a range from $88-126 for the 3 mammogram providers my internist gave me, and found myself asking more about cost and purpose then when things were ‘covered’.  The market is the only force that can put medicine back together again, in my opinion.
3) Here is Keynes special forward for the 1936 German version of his book:
“The theory of aggregate production, which is the point of the following book, nevertheless can be much easier adapted to the conditions of a TOTALITARIAN STATE (my caps) than the theory of production and distribution of a given production put forth under conditions of free competition and a large degree of laissez-faire. This is one of the reasons that justifies the fact that I call my theory a general theory.”
So if you happen to not mind a totalitarian state, why more power to you.  I don’t.
4) Driving through Nebraska, I kept noticing Carnegie (public) libraries. They are two story brick structures now being closed because the ADA modifications are too expensive for small towns.  I did a google on Carnegie libraries in Nebraska and found over 60.  “Of the 2,509 such libraries funded between 1883 and 1929, 1,689 were built in the United States, 660 in Britain and Ireland, 125 in Canada, and others in Australia, New Zealand, Serbia, the Caribbean, and Fiji.”
Many industrialists (who provide our jobs and develop things like automatic dishwashers-the husband’s dream) were philanthropists.  Being rich is not a crime.  When i feel rich, I have my window washed by a couple who own a business.  Right now i’m even washing my own car… what does that tell you about turning off the trickle down economy.
Most fortunes in (non-birthright nations like monarchies) are lost in 2-3 generations.  Onasis daughter lost hers in one generation.  The US now allows wealth to be preserved in foundations.. <bad idea in my opinion.

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By ardee, September 19, 2009 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA, September 19 at 1:11 pm #

Please lady, look at your own typical posts and those of others with regard to capitalization and highlighting…most embolden a key word or name or phrase you go nuts with the concept.

Its fine though, as long as you are OK with the idea that I will skip such ‘busy’ efforts in future.

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By Fat Freddy, September 19, 2009 at 2:38 pm Link to this comment

I found the Libertarians to be too influenced by Ayn Rand which is a terrible role model.

Not all Libertarians are Randian. Rand’s Philosophy must be taken in the context of her life. As a little girl she watched her Father’s business taken away, at gun point, by Russian Bolsheviks. Somehow, some Libertarians feel that the when a freely elected government collects taxes, it is the same thing.

What Keynes wrote and believed is not the same as what “Keynesian’s” practice. Keynes himself, would not be considered a Keynesian by today’s standards. But I am not an expert in Economics. Economics is a soft science. I am a small business owner and have an educational background in the Physical Sciences.

Personally, I feel that most government intervention and regulation should be avoided except in the cases of fraud, deception and exploitation. Many, government regulations, interventions and tax policies were done so at the behest of a few, very large corporations to gain competitive advantage over their smaller, and more cost effective competitors. The only thing a large company hates more than taxes is free and fair competition. And they use their power and influence to stack the deck in their favor, hidden in the guise of economic stability. But as FA Hayek points out, there can be no economic stability, only a natural business cycle. The Treasury and Federal Reserve are far too blunt of instruments to micromanage the economy. Instead of a natural business cycle, we get boom/bust investment bubbles.

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By Night-Gaunt, September 19, 2009 at 2:04 pm Link to this comment

The analogy he used is of imperialism and mercantilism not free enterprise anyway, except for the empire of course. A one way flow of “free” with everyone else paying for it. How else do you get million, billion, and (soon) trillionaires while millions starve at poor wages. I prefer the workers owning the means of production, better chance of a real wage for services rendered.

I wonder how TheLibertarian is with the idea of millionaires? Are more of them a good sign or bad, to me they are a bad sign. To the button down Libertarians of the Cato Inst. it is a mark of a healthy society. We need that aspect of Capitalism to keep creativity going but it must be controlled for the greater good. Without it we get the present economic cancer we have now with the reigns of power in a few hands infecting everything around us.

Too bad so many of those marchers don’t understand that they are protesting the wrong things in that. The propaganda works!

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By Fat Freddy, September 19, 2009 at 1:59 pm Link to this comment

And, Fat Freddy, the insurance companies do not have the ability to force me to accept their options.


The hell they don’t. What choice do you really have? Take your employer’s insurance, or go on the open market and buy your own, or go without. I’m sure your employer will be more than happy to give you the money they save from not having to insure you. I’m also sure you’ll be able to get an insurance company to give you a policy for the same price as a big company, and I’m also sure the government will give you the tax write-off for it.

You don’t need to explain Libertarianism or Austrian Economics to me. But there are two things you can explain. First, why does every other industrialized nation provide universal coverage for their citizens, and why are we the only country that does not believe healthcare is a basic, fundamental human right?

Second, why does Dr. Paul still have an “R” next to his name?

I consider myself a Left-leaning Libertarian. But healthcare is just too damned important to be fucking around with free market demand. I also believe that healthcare in general, doesn’t follow free market rules. People that are going to develop cancer, will, regardless of any market forces. The need for healthcare is a need, not a choice. I also believe that we will never be able to get government out of healthcare because there are too many people that are simply uninsurable. So, we are stuck with government in the healthcare system, like it or not.

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By Inherit The Wind, September 19, 2009 at 1:53 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt:
Not to worry:‘TheLibertarian’ understand Rand even less than you do.

And, amazingly, he knows even LESS about Keynes.  In fact, other how to his last name, I’m certain EVERYTHING TL ‘knows’ about Keynes is wrong.  Everything.

Remember: he’s parroting a school that would believe Milton Friedman was a Keynesian if they actually READ his work!

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By Night-Gaunt, September 19, 2009 at 12:57 pm Link to this comment

I don’t like the idea of corporations become free entities to do what they want to and if you have a problem with them you have to sue them to stop them. Unless you are for bringing them up for assessment every five years to prove their worth as a positive part of our society then I would agree. If they aren’t their charter is revoked. I know enough about Mises, Rothbard and the rest. I found the Libertarians to be too influenced by Ayn Rand which is a terrible role model. I like a Socialist cushion for my Anarchism.

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By thelibertarian, September 19, 2009 at 11:50 am Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt
As a libertarian, i am pro-choice on EVERYTHING.. As a Ron Paul supporter, we would have closed down the war machine PDQ.. and brought the soldiers home (as some thought Obama would do).  Legalizing everything except the use of force or fraud on another or abuse of children is the libertarian’s mantra. 
As a libertarian, I’m the one who knows that without the ability to reach into each and every individual’s checkbook for funding (IRS) and the ability to create loans on our childrens’ future in the trillions now (Fed Reserve), the fed would be required to live within a strict budget and we would own our own labor again. 
“The government consumes wealth; private industry creates wealth.”
The Federal Reserve’s low interest rates for too long compounded our housing bubble and most loan makers ran to the federally created fannie and freddie for refuge. 
Anyway.. its too hard to explain austrian economics in a sound byte.  Maybe you can buy a book.

Consider our current Keynesian ideals like this:
5 guys shipwrecked on a desert island..
everyone is assigned a job..
One asian fishes,
one asian cooks,
one asian gathers firewood and
one asian hunts for food. 
The american’s job is to eat. 
According to keynesian thought without the american, none of the asians would have jobs.  <—our bubble in a nutshell.  we didn’t produce ANYTHING..

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By Night-Gaunt, September 19, 2009 at 11:17 am Link to this comment

I must be remembered that the great lord Buckley at one point also advocated tyranny to get everyone in line. So he was a better spoken and behaved radical or as Gore Vidal</i> called him<i> “a crypto fascist” in 1968 I believe.

Well how would you be if on that same reservation you were forced on at gun point living in poverty so would you expect decent health care from that same gov’t? And get it? No. So it is a bad analogy TheLibertarian. Health care is a right under life, and without it liberty is dead too. Think!!!

Do you trust your health care provider TheLibertarian? Even though they want you only as long as you pay in. You had better check to see when they will dump you, or triple your rates at any time and without warning. The best medical coverage money can buy. And if you don’t have it, you lose the right to life, liberty and happiness. Both Jefferson & Lincoln warned about the encroachment of corporations into the public sphere.

Me? I would cut the military spending by 99% along with closing down and selling all the official (878) and unofficial bases world wide. Cut the surveillance back too. Legalize all drugs and adult sexual prostitution while making it a capital crime to pay money and other favors to affect gov’t action.

Fix our own country and help our own people first then we shall see about the rest of the world.

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By thelibertarian, September 19, 2009 at 10:55 am Link to this comment

Ardee As you are dependent on insults as a form of discourse, “this one is about your lies”, “preposterous and so not a rational concept as to make me wonder why you would embarrass yourself by raising it”, your posts will probably go unread by me in the future.
It is precisely because the member nations are very happy with their current systems than I posit that as an example of government using force to take away preferred options at whim. 
And, Fat Freddy, the insurance companies do not have the ability to force me to accept their options. Only government can do that.  A doctor cannot voluntarily decide his records may contain too much confidential information and not allow them to be entered into the database, either. That is the very ‘involuntary’ compliance our fed has grown so comfortable making.

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By StuartH, September 19, 2009 at 10:33 am Link to this comment

Martha:

Your posts are generally impenetrable and garbled up by the use of a lot of
highlighting and bolding.  Ten years ago a lot more people used to do that, it
tended to substitute for being articulate and for yelling. 

Just say what you mean.  When you write from that perspective, you tend to write
well. 

That’s feedback on a style issue.

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By MarthaA, September 19, 2009 at 10:11 am Link to this comment

ardee,

YOU use highlighting—is highlighting only good for YOU, like the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Republicans using “Corporate Communism” for the few?

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By Fat Freddy, September 19, 2009 at 9:22 am Link to this comment

Imagine being 15 and fearing you have VD. You speak with your doctor (confidential, right?).. now it goes on your record for life. Or tell your doctor you are doing illegal drugs and need help kicking the habit.  Try running for federal office in 10 years without that ‘becoming public knowledge.’

Check your insurance policy. There may be a provision that says your insurance company has the right to share your information with anyone it sees fit. Just because you’re given a right, doesn’t mean you can’t sign it away as part of a private contract. I would be more concerned about my employer finding out, than the government.

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By Rodger Lemonde, September 19, 2009 at 9:20 am Link to this comment

We are addicted to momentous events, the 20th century
was a wild ride. Feeding this addiction has become
profitable. So instead of being victims of
circumstance the greed machine makes us victims of
circuses.
The media clowns stir things up instead of informing
us, facts are boring and large portions of the public
view reality like they viewed back to school as
children. If they have to go there,they want to find
the teachers who give easy a’s, no tests and don’t
know how to keep discipline. Maybe they can even beat
up some nerds that read, write and do math.
Could it just possibly be that massive corporations
that exploit people are the true “Revenge of the
Nerds”?

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By ardee, September 19, 2009 at 9:05 am Link to this comment

thelibertarian, September 19 at 11:45 am

Perhaps you might follow your own suggestion and actually think about the truth of the proposed health care reform. Instead you posit a series of falsehoods and myths about a bill not yet written and cry crocodile tears about a “govt plan” that is, in reality , administered by private insurers and only regulated by the Govt. Ironically that is why I refuse to support said plan, but that is another story, this one is about your lies.

Your comparison between the EU and this nation , vis-a-vis health care is preposterous and so not a rational concept as to make me wonder why you would embarrass yourself by raising it? Ironically, the member nations of the EU all have universal health care, their citizens enjoy cradle to grave coverage, none are excluded and the cost is far, far less than we spend for inadequate and exclusionary care.

But thanks for playing…...

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By thelibertarian, September 19, 2009 at 8:45 am Link to this comment

If the EU were as strong as DC and planned to give all EU nations a healthcare plan removing options from member nations and the individuals living there, how would that fly?  For instance, imagine the French and Germans if told they were losing their healthcare plans as all EU nations go on the British health plan?
The problem is loss of individual options to the central planners who ‘know what is best.’
On the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in Sen. Daschle’s (former leader in the Senate) state of SoDak, they have been ‘blessed’ with federally funded and administered healthcare for 100 years have double the infant mortality of the state.  Lifestyle choices, you say?  okay.. use this set of patients already in a federal system to make the case for your plans to improve health by encouraging lifestyle changes.  But no, Daschle has all the answers. His involuntary collection of all our health records into a central federal database is a done deal paid for by the ‘stimulus’ bill. 
Imagine being 15 and fearing you have VD. You speak with your doctor (confidential, right?).. now it goes on your record for life. Or tell your doctor you are doing illegal drugs and need help kicking the habit.  Try running for federal office in 10 years without that ‘becoming public knowledge.’ Only tens of thousands of hospitals, pharmacies and other health workers like EMTs, etc have access… is it private?——dreamers.
Yes, I’m totally afraid of Uncle Sam in my very private healthcare records and I’m old and my life is an open book.  Why wouldn’t people march to keep a system that works well for them today?
Visiting in Banff last week, i listened twice to Banff radio for the weather report and heard that the orthopeds in Banff are losing their MRI machine to budget cuts.  They have some of the richest vacationers in the WORLD to ski who would gladly pay for an MRI prior to surgery on their leg, arm, elbow or knee, to receive pin-point surgery.  The ability to charge capitalists for capital expenditures gives us (all of us) access to the best equipment and facilities.  Without capitalism, these expenditures don’t make sense.  Think folks!!!!!!!!!!

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By thebeerdoctor, September 19, 2009 at 7:14 am Link to this comment

I have been told that not only is President Obama is not a U.S. citizen, he was also not born in Kenya, Africa, but is in fact a forwarding scout for a full fledged alien invasion… who am I to question their veracity?
The problem with firmly held belief systems is they have a tendency to run into a wall of reality. That is why organised religions scorn astronomy: considering cosmic questions without dogma depends on mathematics and careful observations. That is why the famous “long count” of the Mayan calendar has to be co-opted into a Hollywood catastrophe movie; the subtle conclusion of a very long biological cycle is simply not sexy enough.
If firmly held belief systems are bad in religion, in politics it gets even worse. That emotional ‘gut’ that former president George W. Bush claimed to operate from, that is the psychic mid-section that the lucrative right wind media industry pounds on day after day, providing comfort for xenophobic stupidity, exploiting single issue concerns, whether it be taxes, guns or abortion, giving their gullible adherents the ultimate wedgie.
This nation is full of money sucking clowns. You can find them everywhere: whether it is a Republican or Democrat convention, a revival tent or the MTV Video awards.

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By Fat Freddy, September 19, 2009 at 6:29 am Link to this comment

Where Did All These Marchers Come From?

Good question. I believe what we have here is a Conservative movement in chaos. They lack any true intellectual leadership. (One may say conservative and intellectual are contradictions, but I can assure you, they are not.) I hear liberals state that it took a William F Buckley to weed out the real radicals of the John Birch Society. William F Buckley certainly was no friend of the left, but he was one of the few with the conservative credibility to expose and denounce the radical positions of the “Birchers”. The only people providing “leadership” to the conservatives are the “anti-Hollywood elitists”. You know who they are. They are, in fact,  “elitists” in their own right.  Just like GWB and Karl Rove would say anything to get elected, these anti-elitists will say anything to increase ratings. They have no desire to weed out these right wing radicals, because to do so, would decrease their ratings. So, what we have is a combination of all of the right wing radicals, combining with the true conservatives, to form a movement of total chaos.

They oppose anything the government does. This is due to a feeling of “betrayal” caused by the GWB administration. Anything Obama and the Democrats do, must be far worse than anything Bush did, in their minds. They are becoming anti-government, not anti-big government, and are bordering on Anarchism.

Ironic. For it was the radical Left, during the Reagan/Thatcher years, that were the Anarchists.

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By Inherit The Wind, September 19, 2009 at 5:52 am Link to this comment

Don’t they all come from Bumfuck, Kansas, where they teach in “science” class that dinosaurs and cavemen lived side by side, no more that 6000 years ago?
Where they believe the Bible saying the sons of Ham should be hewers of wood and drawers of water? (ie, Blacks were meant to be slaves)

‘nuf ‘ced

As P.T. Barnum said, there’s a sucker born every minute—and we’re seeing them.

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By ChaoticGood, September 19, 2009 at 12:15 am Link to this comment

I love to watch morons march down the road carrying signs that are misspelled that advocate ideas planted in their heads by their enemies.

The irony and pathos is almost too much to watch.

Like two troops of monkeys in adjacent trees screeching and hurling feces at each other, the human political comedy unfolds.

It is mesmerizing, and I am a political junkie.

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By MarthaA, September 18, 2009 at 9:13 pm Link to this comment

ardee,

And is this better?

By MarthaA, September 18 at 11:11 am #

Organized political sophistry and propaganda is an ORGANIZED criminal enterprise intentionally perpetrated by sophist propagandists of the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN MOVEMENT that is an organized criminal enterprise that has been used to subvert the U.S government, destroy the U.S. Economy and “borrow and spend” the U.S.A. into bankruptcy; these acts are conspiratorial high felonious crimes, and no amount of organized sophist contention will change the effects of these crimes upon the masses of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION of the U.S.A.

The organized sophistry and propaganda of the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN MOVEMENT from Goldwater to Reagan, Bush I and Bush II and all of their organized sophist and propagandist minions of the media echo-chamber and the “little tiny Eichman” cooperators that enabled the organized sophists and their propaganda agenda that are the Democratic Leadership Council, DLC, of the Democratic Party are all complicit in an organized sophist and propaganda conspiracy by the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN MOVEMENT, that have intentionally, over the past 40 years, engaged in an organized criminal enterprise to subvert the government of the U.S.A. for their own greedy self-serving interests that is contrary to the best interest of the U.S.A. and the people of the U.S.A., and left the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION holding the bag to pay for the bankruptcy and economic collapse of the U.S.A. that they perpetrated for their own greedy self-interest, which is an organized crime, no two ways about it, and must be both recognized and punished as an organized crime, so that organized criminal sophism and propaganda does not continue to recur.

Organized political sophistry and propaganda intentionally perpetrated by sophists of the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN MOVEMENT is an organized criminal enterprise that was used to subvert the government of the United States, destroy the U.S. Economy and “borrow and spend the U.S.A. into bankruptcy; these acts are conspiratorial high felonious crimes, and no amount of organized sophist contention and propaganda will change the effects of these crimes upon the masses of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION of the U.S.A.

The organized sophists of the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN MOVEMENT from Goldwater to Reagan, Bush I and Bush II and all of their organized sophist minions of the media echo-chamber and the cooperators that enabled the organized sophist agenda that are the DLC of the Democratic Party are all complicit in an organized sophist conspiracy of the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN MOVEMENT, that intentionally, over the past 40 years, have engaged in an organized criminal enterprise to subvert the government of the U.S.A. for their own greedy self-serving interests that is contrary to the best interest of the U.S.A. and the people of the U.S.A., and left the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION holding the bag to pay for the bankruptcy of the U.S.A. and economic collapse that they perpetrated for their own greedy self-interest; this was an organized crime and must be both recognized and punished as an organized crime, so that organized sophistry and propaganda does not continue to recur in another and another “economic cycle”, as what the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS determine to nothing more than a correction, because they don’t pay for the consequences of their actions, we do, the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION by way of “socialized responsibility for privatized benefit”.

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By MarthaA, September 18, 2009 at 9:09 pm Link to this comment

ardee,

Is this better?

By MarthaA, September 18 at 5:19 pm #

I am sick to the bottom of my soul of hearing indignant, phony, contrived sophistic outrage used by the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS as a means of accusing, condemning denouncing and vilifying Liberals to get “unmerited benefit from communal resources”; this is a low life mean, vile and vulgar tactic that must be REPUDIATED; rather than APPEASED and REWARDED; this type of behavior is not allowed by bullies on a grade school playground and this type of behavior must not be allowed as an adult political standard for the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS; Hitler and Mussolini got away with this type of degenerate behavior and look where that led—World War II—If the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS are allowed respect for behaving as degenerate bullies spewing phony sophistic indignation and outrage over contrived and imagined cause to get “unmerited benefit from communal resources” without contributing to the greater good, they must be disregarded and repudiated for the mean, vile and vulgar bullies that they are, rather than regarded as if there is merit in their degenerate behavior.

The airwaves that enable the broadcast media are a part of the Commonwealth of the Nation that must be re-regulated to serve the greater good, rather than the greater greed; it is time for a change that brings an end to the present era of “enabling socialized responsibility for privatized benefit,”  in other words, it is time for a New Era of “enabling socialized responsibility for the greater good, rather than the greater greed.”  It is time for the U.S. to be the best country in the world for the greater good, instead of the best country in the world for all of us, the 30% minority population of the American Aristocracy and the Professional Middle Class, NOT YOU, the 70% MAJORITY Common Population of the United States as the toilers that enable our high standard of living in the U.S.A.

If the 70% MAJORITY Common Population of the United States cannot share in the greater good, the 70% MAJORITY Common Population of the U.S.A. must make certain that the 30% minority population of the U.S.A. cannot benefit from the prosperity from which the 70% MAJORITY Common Population enables and are intentionally excluded.

It is time for an end to “the U.S. is the best country in the world” for health care, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness with freedom and justice for all of US, maybe not YOU, the 70% MAJORITY Common Population of toilers that enable our way of life.

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By Joe B., September 18, 2009 at 6:38 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Where did they come from?

Well, out of the woodwork where they have always been lurking until encouraged by the Limbaughs and Becks and Hannitys and O’Reillys, et al to emerge and do the reactionary right’s dirty work.

My latest op-ed e-zine has some good commentaries that include a couple touching on the woodwork dwellers’ emergence and their general mental state.  It is posted on MyTown. ca at http://www.mytown.ca/green-dog/.

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By ardee, September 18, 2009 at 4:51 pm Link to this comment

tropicgirl, September 18 at 3:58 pm

You are absolutely correct about democraticunderground.com. They are a shill for the party and thus useless to any in depth political debate.

About two or three years ago they actually purged a number of the brightest and best informed posters in what has been labeled as , “the night of the long knives”.

It is difficult to find a political forum with progressive leanings that is not partisan towards the Democratic Party.Probably because far too many live in t he past with regard to that Party’s intent and direction..

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By ardee, September 18, 2009 at 4:46 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA, September 18 at 5:19 pm

One might ask that you try harder to make your posts actually readable. I understand that you believe capitalization and bold italic to be a form of brainwashing but all it does is make me skip the damn post.

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By MarthaA, September 18, 2009 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment

I am sick to the bottom of my soul of hearing indignant, phony, contrived sophistic outrage used by the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS as a means of accusing, condemning denouncing and vilifying Liberals to get “unmerited benefit from communal resources”; this is a low life mean, vile and vulgar tactic that must be REPUDIATED; rather than APPEASED and REWARDED; this type of behavior is not allowed by bullies on a grade school playground and this type of behavior must not be allowed as an adult political standard for the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS; Hitler and Mussolini got away with this type of degenerate behavior and look where that led—World War II—If the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS are allowed respect for behaving as degenerate bullies spewing phony sophistic indignation and outrage over contrived and imagined cause to get “unmerited benefit from communal resources” without contributing to the greater good, they must be disregarded and repudiated for the mean, vile and vulgar bullies that they are, rather than regarded as if there is merit in their degenerate behavior.

The airwaves that enable the broadcast media are a part of the Commonwealth of the Nation that must be re-regulated to serve the greater good, rather than the greater greed; it is time for a change that brings an end to the present era of “enabling socialized responsibility for privatized benefit,”  in other words, it is time for a New Era of “enabling socialized responsibility for the greater good, rather than the greater greed.”  It is time for the U.S. to be the best country in the world for the greater good, instead of the best country in the world for all of us, the 30% minority population of the American Aristocracy and the Professional Middle Class, NOT YOU, the 70% MAJORITY Common Population of the United States as the toilers that enable our high standard of living in the U.S.A.

If the 70% MAJORITY Common Population of the United States cannot share in the greater good, the 70% MAJORITY Common Population of the U.S.A. must make certain that the 30% minority population of the U.S.A. cannot benefit from the prosperity from which the 70% MAJORITY Common Population enables and are intentionally excluded.

It is time for an end to “the U.S. is the best country in the world” for health care, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness with freedom and justice for all of US, maybe not YOU, the 70% MAJORITY Common Population of toilers that enable our way of life.

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By tropicgirl, September 18, 2009 at 12:58 pm Link to this comment

Quote from Politico: “...The irony thus far seems to have been lost on the left,
however, which has mostly voiced either disbelief or derision that the
conservatives would be so shameless — or so clueless. In Democratic
Underground’s…”

AS AN INDEPENDENT LIBERAL, LONG-TIME PROTESTER, I THINK THIS IS GREAT!
Many of my liberal friends have already joined. Many of my conservative
friends, who never before protested, are going out and having fun.

The grassroots on either side are really not that far off… Its the politicos that
are invested in CORPORATE WELFARE that are ****ed. As Obama is himself,
invested in corporate welfare.

Democratic Underground is nothing but a partisan, paid Democratic blog, for
Democratic candidates only.

One thing I am wondering… The last eight years began a new era of police
brutality during protests, in the form of tasers and other forms of aggression
that we had not seen before.

I wonder if that will happen to the conservative protesters. I think it is
inappropriate for any protester to have to be subjected to that.

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By Big B, September 18, 2009 at 12:38 pm Link to this comment

StuartH

it’s funny you should mention that middle PA accent, I know what you are talking about, but i haven’t heard it in years. The closest I have heard is in Cumberland MD, although theirs has alot of that Virginia drawl mixing in with it.

You are all too correct about the single issue wedge voters. It has proven to be a growing problem in the US, and a boom for right wing wackjobs seeking public office. The growing number of america’s “new Dumb” (Hunter Thompson’s words, not mine) has led to an epidemic of dim, single issue voters. My wife has always said that Hitler could get elected as a republican in american, as long as he was “pro-life”

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By StuartH, September 18, 2009 at 12:17 pm Link to this comment

Big B:

“And I often wonder, in this neo-conservative Hell that is now america, how
many more areas of this once great nation resemble ours?”

All too many.  Most of Michigan.  I remember coal miners in the small towns, one guy in particular who was a huge guy who had pulled in big bucks as a crane operator, living on food stamps and the hope that one day, the mine would be re-opened that had sustained the community since their great grandfather’s day.  Corporate conglomerates had bought up family owned
mines and then put them in a sort of inventory deep freeze for a future when there was more profit it mining the smaller seams.  This was set off by a Wall Street manuever called leveraged buy outs.  Make money by reducing actual production.  Genius. 

By the mid ‘70s the big mill in Johnstown was already a rusting hulk and a lot of the kids were looking to leave town.  This followed the Nixon Administration.  Republicans just have a way of “reverse Robin Hood,” milking the working class to enrich the rich. 

Then, a lot of working class people vote for the rich because they get their chains yanked by religion, racist hatreds, or BS “wedge” issues.

The trend towards offshoring jobs from once robust manufacturing regions like Michigan, Ohio and PA has been a catastrophe probably worse than an atomic bomb exploding.  At least that sort of destruction would mobilize people and they would see who the enemy was - and they would quit voting for them.

Maybe you are familiar with this.  Back in some of those “hollers” there were communities where people spoke with the accent that the Founding Fathers had, something not quite yet southern and not quite British.  It was amazing to hear this.

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By felicity, September 18, 2009 at 11:36 am Link to this comment

It works every time.  Create chaos, uncertainty, fear among the people then sit back a while and when malaise and misery have gained a foot-hold in the population, comfort the population by identifying the culprits (human) responsible - your ‘solutions’ to fix everything will become gospel.

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By knute, September 18, 2009 at 11:14 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Where do they come from ? Why, they come from the place where people would rather be manipulated by others. They come from all the religous institutions that looked the other way while America invaded another soverign nation, they came from sitting on their fat ass watching TV, listening to Faux News, Glenn Beck, Hannity, Limbaugh, etc….Its a big part of the country and its called Dumbfuckistan. Where idiots vote for politicians who are screwing them daily, but they haven’t the mental muscle to even recognise it. They come from the same place the brownshirts of 1930’s germany came from. The same place the Klan comes from. They need to be confronted as the enablers of a status quo that is only interested in profits for industry while they blather on saying whatever a gas-bag like Beck tells them to say., not given a platform by our wonderfull media.

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By Big B, September 18, 2009 at 10:51 am Link to this comment

StuartH

When I read your post I was immedietly reminded of an old joke I heard while working years ago near the Ohio/Kentucky border;

I knew a man who was arrested for smuggling books through Kentucky. But they had to let him go because nobody there could prove they were books.

I believe I know what county in PA you are referring to that chose to close their library. It’s out in coal country, or as we refer to it in these parts “Pennsyltucky”. I am afraid in a trip through Johnstown and Altoona these days you would find only the aged and poor, mostly people who could not afford to leave. Don’t get me wrong, they are much cleaner towns than they used to be, there are just no jobs there. We in western PA have been comforting ourselves for nearly 3 decades now with the fact that our sky is now blue, our rivers are clean, and 2/3rds of our once proud “mill hunkey” society that once helped re-build the world after WWII, has moved somewhere else looking for jobs. Our situation always reminds me of an old Eagles song, The Last Resort, that contains the line, “there are no more new frontiers, we have got to make it here”

You will see next week on the news as the G-20 summit begins that we in Pittsburgh do indeed have a wonderful skyline. But all that skyline does is draw your eyes away from the surrounding delapidated communities. from Mon City to McKeesport, Beaver falls to Wheeling, this area once filled with proud hard working people is in the middle of it’s decades long coma, seemingly waiting for somebody to pull the plug.

And I often wonder, in this neo-conservative Hell that is now america, how many more areas of this once great nation resemble ours?

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By Rex Ozone, September 18, 2009 at 10:22 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I appreciate the thoughtful and incisive comments about this issue and on this page. I cannot disagree with the analysis or empirical evidence cited. Hoping for the best is not good enough and the ability of the right to create devastating Tsunami’s of public outrage is daunting. I look to Venezuela and the courageous progress against such forces by the people of South America and feel that the real revolution is coming from the south. The kinds of restraints imposed on socialist democratic efforts there are identical to those faced here.

We must cooperate and work together to achieve a victory over these forces whether they are Fox or Univision shaping our thoughts and actions.

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By Night-Gaunt, September 18, 2009 at 10:19 am Link to this comment

By Big B, September 18 at 9:05 am #

“Pres Barry has either drastically underestimated the power of the right in today’s media, or he is not as smart as he thinks he is.”

Here is another, he is smart as a fox dressed as a chicken in the hen house. He is not our friend and shows it each time he keeps previous un-Constitutional acts and make them stronger. That is not a sign of someone on our side. He is on the crypto-fascists by way he is doing to continue their decades long project. The attacks on him have a two fold purpose—to make him look even better in comparison and as a kind of paranoia inducing warning to him in case a conscience comes into play over his treachery. Though it is to us not to his true allegiance that he talks up to. “Don’t get fooled again!” I wonder what they offered him in return? [Maybe control of a blacks only homeland in the new order the cabal or Dominionists will get if they succeed.]

Speeches are nothing if they aren’t backed by action. Obama seems to be more in the role Charles Linberge as president than as FDR (who Kucinich would have been.)

Don’t expect the healthcare bill in its final form to really be of help to us. If it is it needs to be supported but if not, it needs to be killed. A public option is a weak sop to us but it could be undermined as well, even more and needs some scrutiny to make sure it is worth it.

Curiously Barry Goldwater had only distaste for those reich wingers MarthaA and saw the trend and warned against them so maybe you should re-evaluate him in that relation. Goldwater would be labeled a liberal or worse by them, they are so far into the fringe as mainstream in what was the Republican party. The Democrats aren’t far behind in their conversion to the two-headed party of the crypto-fascists even now.

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By ocjim, September 18, 2009 at 9:51 am Link to this comment

I think most of us underestimated the power and resources behind the neocon plan to take over America. We thought that with the departure of Bush/Cheney and a Republican Congress that it would be smoother sailing for reform. Forget it. The plutocracy was already in place with BushCo and its tentacles are dug in everywhere: lobbyists are buying Democrats, the media is overwhelmingly conservative, the will of the people is repeatedly ignored, spectacle and conflict rule—we are assaulted on all fronts by the power and resources of monolithic corporations.

We let it happen, and we should know by now that we will have to fight for what is fair and equitable.

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By Gary, September 18, 2009 at 9:41 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Wow, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. The liberal media is everywhere and Fox stands alone for free speech. The idea to boycott them is crazy and will only add to their appeal. People are not stupid and can see through this administration, that is why FOX is growing.

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By Anarcissie, September 18, 2009 at 9:20 am Link to this comment

But just think—everyone who doesn’t believe in the rightist guff can read something different on the Internet.  I wonder how long that will last.  As long as it does, those formerly isolated regions of the country will be invaded and infected with strange, subversive, urban ideas which they can compare with Beck’s and Limbaugh’s.  Heh.

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By StuartH, September 18, 2009 at 8:30 am Link to this comment

Big B:

It happens that I spent a summer selling books door-to-door as a college adventure in the mid 1970s in the area of Southwestern PA around Johnstown, Altoona, and Greensburg.  I found that there was an appalling trend towards anti-education back then (I was selling an education aid book set) although there were pockets of both backwardism and pockets of progressivism as you moved from one “holler” to the next. 

There was one county, somewhere close to the West Virginia line that opted to close down the library rather than deal with modernism.  People were complaining about everything from Time Magazine to New Math.  There were a few that I ran across that had bound editions of the Watchtower tabloid that the Jehovah’s Witnesses distribute, like an encyclopedia on their book shelves - with no other books. 

This anti-future, anti-education attitude has been around for a while.  I think what has smoked it out of the hollers and backwoods areas is the need for Republicans to find ever more neurotic people to exploit.

Unfortunately people are vulnerable, especially in those small town areas where there is not a diverse population or a diversity of views and where people are culturally isolated from the mainstream of American life and its modern complexities.  This is the principle reason for “red state” areas. 

I began looking around for newspapering jobs back in the mid 1970s in Texas and discovered that at the time, independent newspapers were dying like flies. The reason for it was that right wing avatars like William Bennett were going around and convincing local conservative business groups that they should not fund or give money to cultural institutions or media organizations that didn’t support their views.  When Reagan came in, he killed off lots of non-profit community organizations in the arts and humanities and accelerated the trend.  You might recall he appointed Bennett as head of the National Endowment for the Humanities.

The basic idea is that a diversity of views and promoting education tends to favor liberals, so these things should be attacked.  Under Bush we saw a very determined effort to undermine universities.  Right wing activists are still working on that agenda.

People I went to school with in the 1970s declared that they were going to get rich so they could buy up media enterprises and strike a blow for Christ (and Karl Rove’s vision of a “New Right” future - he was heading up campus Republican organizing at that time.) 

I think the saving grace can be seen in the Nov. 2008 election map.  The red state areas were limited to the rural West and the Deep South, and areas like rural Pennsylvania/Ohio. 

The extremism of the angry right is likely to create a backlash among moderate suburban voters, but it may be the only choice for Republican strategists - get the base more motivated even if they are a declining part of the population. Perhaps the intensity will compensate.

In the big picture, what is going on should be seen as a referendum on diversity of American culture.  Some parts of the country, especially small towns and rural areas contain a number of people who feel threatened by a multicultural future.  A lot of people in larger cities and suburbs who already live in that future have become comfortable with it and see other issues, such as science based concerns like energy or stem cell research, and the problems associated with economic globalization or the local economy as more important. 

Right now the pot is being stirred by the insurance industry which is spending millions of dollars every day, on top of what the financial industry is spending, in an effort to undermine the public interest.  Unfortunately, that will continue.

To me, there is no point in avoiding the fight.  Cowardice will only make it worse.  We are just in difficult times and we might as well fasten our seat belts, hold our nerve, and do our best.

This is the backwash from the Bush era.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, September 18, 2009 at 8:11 am Link to this comment

Organized political sophistry and propaganda is an ORGANIZED criminal enterprise intentionally perpetrated by sophist propagandists of the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN MOVEMENT  that is an organized criminal enterprise that has been used to subvert the U.S government, destroy the U.S. Economy and “borrow and spend” the U.S.A. into bankruptcy; these acts are conspiratorial high felonious crimes, and no amount of organized sophist contention will change the effects of these crimes upon the masses of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION of the U.S.A.

The organized sophistry and propaganda of the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN MOVEMENT from Goldwater to Reagan, Bush I and Bush II and all of their organized sophist  and propagandist minions of the media echo-chamber  and the “little tiny Eichman” cooperators that enabled the organized sophists and their propaganda agenda that are the Democratic Leadership Council, DLC, of the Democratic Party  are all complicit in an organized sophist and propaganda conspiracy  by the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN MOVEMENT, that have intentionally, over the past 40 years, engaged in an organized criminal enterprise to subvert the government of the U.S.A. for their own greedy self-serving interests  that is contrary to the best interest of the U.S.A. and the people of the U.S.A., and left the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION holding the bag to pay for the bankruptcy and economic collapse of the U.S.A. that they perpetrated for their own greedy self-interest, which is an organized crime, no two ways about it, and must be both recognized and punished as an organized crime, so that organized criminal sophism and propaganda does not continue to recur.

Organized political sophistry and propaganda intentionally perpetrated  by sophists of the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN MOVEMENT is an organized criminal enterprise  that was used to subvert the government of the United States, destroy  the U.S. Economy and “borrow and spend  the U.S.A. into bankruptcy; these acts are conspiratorial high felonious crimes, and no amount of organized sophist contention and propaganda will change the effects of these crimes upon the masses of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION of the U.S.A.

The organized sophists  of the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN MOVEMENT from Goldwater to Reagan, Bush I and Bush II and all of their organized sophist minions of the media echo-chamber and the cooperators that enabled the organized sophist agenda that are the DLC of the Democratic Party are all complicit in an organized sophist conspiracy of the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN MOVEMENT, that intentionally, over the past 40 years, have engaged in an organized criminal enterprise to subvert the government of the U.S.A. for their own greedy self-serving interests that is contrary to the best interest of the U.S.A. and the people of the U.S.A., and left the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION holding the bag to pay for the bankruptcy of the U.S.A. and economic collapse that they perpetrated for their own greedy self-interest; this was an organized crime and must be both recognized and punished as an organized crime, so that organized sophistry and propaganda does not continue to recur in another and another “economic cycle”, as what the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS  determine to nothing more than a correction, because they don’t pay for the consequences of their actions, we do, the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION by way of “socialized responsibility for privatized benefit”.

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By Rodger Lemonde, September 18, 2009 at 8:07 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Well over a million of them came from Glenn Beck’s
twisted mind. The man from Iduno U.

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By Big B, September 18, 2009 at 6:05 am Link to this comment

Pres Barry has either drastically underestimated the power of the right in todays media, or he is not as smart as he thinks he is.

With that said, an few observations of my own that should prove an interesting harbinger of things to come. I live in the upper ohio valley, between Pittsburgh and Wheeling. The Wheeling area is served by one newspaper, owned by the neo-conservative Ogden news corp. There are 2 tv stations, one owned by cox, the other by Sinclair, and a couple of radio stations, one sinclair, and one Clear channel. My job takes me into peoples homes on a daily basis, and I have noticed a disturbing trend. Nearly all the homes of seniors and the uneducated (my job concerns demographic studies)have their tv’s turned on to Fox news channel, and the Rush Limbaugh show on the radio. Their views on politics and social issues range from conservative to just to the right of the klu klux klan.(I have personally heard the word “nigger” uttered more in the last year than I had my entire life, up to now) They believe everything that leaves the hateful mouths of O’reilly, Beck, Hannity, and Limbaugh to be gospel.

My point is simple, like the old adage from Goebbels, when mine is the only voice you hear, mine shall be the only voice you believe. Combine this with the statisical fact that high school drop out rates are at historically high levels, and our college graduation rates are stagnant, if not falling, and you begin to see why the Wacko right has such a dedicated following.

Fear rules the day. Our generation, and our nation are at a 21st century horizon. Many of us want to go beyond the horizon, to the next chapter in human history. some of us just want to stay on the horizon, afraid to change, afraid to go back. And many of us, those in the wacko right, think that the Earth is flat, that the sun orbits around us, and we should turn around and go back before we sail off the edge.

Barry and his cronies fail to realize that the wacko right weilds far more media influence and is way better financed than the rest us. This lack of vision will prove to be our undoing. Their base is old people frightened of change, and the dim. Which reminds me of a refrigerator magnet I have in the kitchen, “Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups”.

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By ardee, September 18, 2009 at 4:48 am Link to this comment

“The Glenn Beck Phenomenon”

I believe that the imbalance in our media reportage ,and despite the claims of the far right, there is a definite shift to the right on our TV and radio as well as in our shrinking newspaper choices, is a well planned and long term strategy.

As Mr. Silver notes, the myth of the “liberal media” is a carefully planned non truth, there being nine conservative voices to every progressive one. The result of this, in conjunction with the apolitical attitudes of the general population , most of whom are quite satisfied to get their opinions premanufactured by nut jobs like Beck, drug addicts like Limbaugh and psychopaths like O’Reilly, is absurdities like “death panels”, the crap about Obama’s birthplace and citizenship and the rest of the Alice in Wonderland garbage so readily believed by a vocal few.

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By TheRealFish, September 18, 2009 at 4:33 am Link to this comment

The most salient issue Silver points to is this simple fact: With the exception of maybe two or three individual broadcasters on all of the cable television infotainment industry, the Corporate Mass Media, that CMM basically serves up, without clarification, without factual verification, without analysis, all of the increasingly anti-Democratic positions put forward by the Right as though these positions are fact-based or represent something more than 20% of the US population.

These crowds come from the fact that CNN or MSNBC help validate baseless attacks and arguments that are, now, primarily focused on fomenting political violence through cranking up low-information citizens’ fear to 12. Instead of saying that “Death Panels” is a baseless and silly argument (analysis of fact) and that’s the end of their coverage of the issue, it ends up consuming hours and hours and days and days of time dedicated to considering the “fine points” of argument of “both sides.”

There are not two sides to the “discussion” of Death Panels. There are only facts versus lies. They validate the lies by giving them boundless air time, leaving that 70% of the US public that still relies on the TeeVee machine for their news with the impression that “there MUST be something to that story of Death Panels. Look at how much time is spent talking about them!”

It is an information war already, where 70% of the population is being exposed—endlessly—to the idea that this illegal alien non-president is threatening the fabric of the country. And that it’s okay to arm-up, to “git yer guns!” And that, because GW Bush was criticized AFTER IT WAS ALREADY TOO LATE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT for having lied us into war and into having the ability to read this comment (maybe as it’s being typed) or listen to our cell calls or read all our emails, it’s okay to call out to the militias or skinheads that maybe “something needs to be done” to protect us from the black Hitler.

To underestimate the impact this is having on the real fabric of our public thought and discourse is to walk blindfolded through a field of primed bear traps.

The most frightening thing to me is that most of what I’m suggesting here sounds like a paranoid delusion. I wish it were. Instead, I think we stand on the precipice of unparalleled political violence.

So, what was yesterday’s “more at 11” story on a local TV news station here in Michigan? That there is currently a run on local gun shops by corporate management types. The attitude of the reporter? “Gee. Isn’t this an interesting phenomenon!”

Yes. Isn’t it.

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