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Obama’s Presidency Isn’t Too Big to Fail

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Posted on Sep 15, 2009
Obama
AP / Charles Dharapak

President Barack Obama addresses the AFL-CIO convention on Tuesday at the David L. Lawrence Convention Center in Pittsburgh.

By Robert Scheer

A president has only so much capital to expend, both in tax dollars and public tolerance, and Barack Obama is dangerously overdrawn. He has tried to have it all on three fronts, and his administration is in serious danger of going bankrupt. He has blundered into a deepening quagmire in Afghanistan, has continued the Bush policy of buying off Wall Street hustlers instead of confronting them and is now on the cusp of bargaining away the so-called public option, the reform component of his health care program. 

Those are not happy sentences to write for one who is still on the e-mail list of campaign supporters urged to back the president in the face of attacks that are stupidly small-minded. But to remain silent about his errors, just because most of his critics are so vile, is hardly an example of constructive concern for him or the country.

Yes, Obama was presented with a series of crises not of his making but for which he is now being held accountable. He is not a “socialist” who grew the federal budget to astronomical proportions. That is the legacy of George W. Bush, who raised the military budget to its highest level since World War II despite the end of the Cold War and the lack of a formidable military opponent— a legacy of debt compounded by Bush’s decision to first ignore the banking meltdown and then to engage in a welfare-for-Wall-Street bailout. And it was Bush who gave the pharmaceutical companies the gift of a very expensive government subsidy for seniors’ drugs.

But what is nerve-racking about Obama is that even though he campaigned against Bush’s follies he has now embraced them. He hasn’t yet managed to significantly reduce the U.S. obligation in Iraq and has committed to making a potentially costlier error by ratcheting up America’s “nation-building” role in Afghanistan. 

Just as he was burdened with the Afghanistan situation, Obama was saddled with a banking crisis he didn’t cause, and the worst that can be said of his attempted solutions to the financial mess is that they were inherited from Bush Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson. But Obama, who raised questions before his election about the propriety of a plan that would rescue the banks but ignore the plight of ordinary folks, has adopted that very approach as president. He elevated Lawrence Summers and Timothy Geithner, the two Democrats most closely aligned with Paulson’s policy, to top positions in his government. 

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Obama’s proposed new regulations, while containing some kind words about better informing consumers, do not portend any breakup of the “too big to fail companies” whose problems were permitted to fester by previous deregulatory measures. His answer is to increase the regulatory capacities of the Federal Reserve, which failed to use its already existing and considerable powers to avoid the debacle.

The promise is that next time the Fed will behave better. As Obama put it Monday, “So our plan would put the cost of a firm’s failures on those who own its stock and loaned it money. And if taxpayers ever had to step in again to prevent a second Great Depression, the financial industry will have to pay the taxpayer back every cent.”

Why not now? And why has he accepted the Wall Street line that all this represents a “collective failure,” as if the con men and the conned had equal responsibility? According to Obama, “It was a failure of responsibility that led homebuyers and derivative traders alike to take reckless risks that they couldn’t afford to take. It was a collective failure of responsibility in Washington, on Wall Street, and across America that led to the near-collapse of our financial system one year ago.”

Hogwash. The chicanery of the financial system, securitizing highly suspect mortgages, was codified into laws that made the hustle legal. 

That insistence on equating the swindled with the swindlers is also what is wrong with the evolving health care reform plan. The assumption from the beginning, when Obama reached out to insurance companies to come up with a deal, was that they had the interest of their customers at heart. They don’t, and it is the purpose of government regulation in the area of health as well as banking to even the scales between the powerful corporations and the consumers from whom they profit. That is the purpose of a public option worth its name.

Without a government program as a check on medical costs, Obama will end up with a variant of the Massachusetts program, one that forces consumers to sign up with private insurers and costs 33 percent more than the national average. He will have furthered the Bush legacy of cultivating an ever more expensive big government without improving how the people are served. 

Click here to check out Robert Scheer’s book,
“The Great American Stickup: How Reagan Republicans and Clinton Democrats Enriched Wall Street While Mugging Main Street.”


Keep up with Robert Scheer’s latest columns, interviews, tour dates and more at www.truthdig.com/robert_scheer.



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By archivesDave, January 23, 2010 at 4:52 pm Link to this comment

Hi elisalouisa:
Thanx for your pointed response and I’m pleased that
you have chosen to broaden your horizon as very few have chosen to do here.
Most folks, (members of the choir following their favorite gurus), just choose to continue with their selective choices, be they right, left, progressive, libertarian, etc and not research the many sides of these complex issues.
As I recall, only one other member of this blog responded to me saying they had read Griffin’s
‘The Creature From Jekyll Island’ which totally
amazed me.
Last Wednesday was one of the darkest days in our
nation’s history and only the Left /Progressives
seem concerned which TOTALLY blows me away since this
is very much a treasonous act that certainly involves
EVERYONE and the media is mostly silent on it!!!!
Thanks for the ‘heads up’, will go to the truthdig
Supreme Ct/Spec interests article and possibly leave
my comments however I hold very little faith in the
readers/bloggers on most of these sites which is why
I am limiting my response to a very select few.
If you or anyone else care to dialog, you can email
me at:  .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

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By elisalouisa, January 23, 2010 at 10:48 am Link to this comment

By archivesDave, October 22, 2009 at 7:11 pm #
Thanx Elisalouise,?Glad you’re getting a lot out of Hagger as did I.?He is most
certainly a very fascinating character and?brilliant in his research.?I read his
books in the same manner, perusing thru?what I like and find the most
pertinent.  Have you read?Griffin’s book, ‘The Creature From Jekyll Island’ yet.?
He’s a man who has also done his homework and gives much insight on US
history in the past century and how the events of today (and tomorrow) relate.?
We are now at the centennial point of the conception?and birth of the Fed
Reserve and it is becoming my?perspective that our nation’s economic problem
will?be ‘solved’ by simply ratcheting up the Fed Reserve?concept into the coming
Global System much as the?original thirteen states’ humongous debts were
rolled up into the Union at the encouragement of Alexander Hamilton.
***
How things have changed in a few short months. Robert Scheer’s title “Obama’s
Presidency isn’t too big to fail” is certainly not the eye catcher that it was in
October.
Yes, I did purchase “The Creature From Jekyll Island” by Edward Griffin and
frankly at that time, just before Christmas, the size and scope of the book
rather intimidated me so I stacked it with my “must read” pile of books. Now
with the latest outrage, the “Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission”
decision by the Supreme Court I shall make it a point to read as much as I can
of this book. Considering the multi-national corporations that will have a
profound influence on the elections in our country I shall also revisit Nicholas Hagger’s “The Syndicate” chapter ‘The United States of the World’ and his theory about world government. On the posts following John Dean’s column “A Supreme Court Victory For Special Interests?” I perhaps am one of the few commenting on the global affects of this decision. It would be nice to know your take on the
Supreme Court’s decision as to Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission and also John Dean’s column.
Added Note: If you respond would you be so kind as to post it on “A Supreme Court Victory for Special Interests?”  Your comments would add much and thus be of interest to those who already have commented.

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By ThomasG, October 28, 2009 at 5:35 pm Link to this comment

I support legislation and enforcement of law and order that is in the best interest of the liberal masses of the population of the United States.

I do NOT support elected representatives in both Houses of the Congress of the United States that claim to represent the Left, but do NOT legislate and enforce law and order that is in the best interests of the liberal masses of the population of the United States.

So far as I know, MarthaA feels the same way.

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By ardee, October 28, 2009 at 4:16 pm Link to this comment

But then, and the main reason you label her as such, you use her stupid remark about “a bullet to the head” to distort liberals as having such agendas. Perhaps in right wing world it is the liberals who foment all the violence.

I repost that as I think it necessary to note the motives behind Michael’s desire to brand Martha/Thomas as a leftist, a far leftist.

I know of no such “far lefty” who is a boastfully registered member of the Democratic Party.

I know of no “far lefty” who condemns anyone who does not seek their political salvation within the Democratic Party either.

Martha/Thomas is a far something all right, Rod Serling might know, but a Leftist she certainly is not. It just serves Ozark’s purpose to call her one.

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By OzarkMichael, October 28, 2009 at 11:53 am Link to this comment

ardee accuses me: You call Martha/Thomas a liberal

That would be imprecise. If I ever said that, it was to tweak you. Sort of like when people link fascism with conservatism on Truthdig. By the way, how does it feel to deal with that imprecision when it happens to you? Not so good, I reckon.

So lets be precise. On the US political spectrum there is the Left and the Right.

On the Right there are conservatives. But as you go farther Right, more extreme… that is fascism. Conservatism and fascism are two very different ideologies but they are related.

On the Left there are liberals. Martha is not a liberal, i know that. But as you go farther to the Left, more extreme… that is Communism. Martha is out there on the fringe Left somewhere. Yes, Liberalism and Communism are two different ideologies, but they are related. So she is on your side of the political spectrum.

In fact, she is so far Left, ardee… that she describes YOU as conservative along with me. Did you notice that? You probably dont know why. This is why you need me even though you dont like me: I know some stuff that you dont.

If you listen you will learn: People way out there on the extreme Left somehow see themselves as the center point, and because of that when they see Liberals to the political Right of themselves, they call those Liberals ‘conservatives’. So to their way of thinking you are on the Right.

Read Martha’s posts and you will see that my analysis is correct. Just a little reflection and honesty is all you need.

But I assume you want to understand. I assume you are honest. Otherwise you are wasting your time and mine. There are some intellectuals here that i can debate with. Perhaps you are not one of them.

I hope you revise these remarks of yours: Only in right wing world would Martha be considered a Leftist.

I await your response. If it is just more of your accusations, I will know that you arent serious, and you will excuse me from responding to your posts in future.

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By MarthaA, October 27, 2009 at 1:12 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael, October 26 at 9:00pm, ardee, October 26 at 3:54pm and ardee, October 27 at 6:49am,

(Page 1 of 2)

From my perspective, both of you, as private political Conservatives, are on the same side, and your posts are amorphous nonsense.  You both need to concern yourselves with objectively defining and redefining yourselves and your own private bankrupt philosophies and agendas as political private Conservative EXTREMISTS, as the Conservative EXTREMIST Movement is the cause of our economical and environmental problems.

As if nothing serious happened, political private Conservative EXTREMISTS choose to continue their successive FAILURES, as is currently the case with the private Conservative EXTREMISTS’ intentional squandering destruction of the public’s U.S. Economy and the public economies of the world through borrowing and spending the U.S. into public bankruptcy and pulling the world into their private squandering schemes of private Zombie Capitalism that destroyed the public economy for the 70% MAJORITY Common Population of the United States,and protected the private capital of the private Conservative EXTREMISTS, who used and are using public Communist resources, public communal resources, of the 70% MAJORITY Common Population for generations upon generations to come to pay back the public debt squandered away, and the exorbitant amount of money being spent to clean up the private Conservative EXTREMISTS squandering mess, as the private Right-Wing squanderers continue to pursue cheap labor and short-term profits without a thought or concern as to the effect on the 70% MAJORITY Common Population——the public, who have to sacrifice to pay back the TENS of TRILLIONS of DOLLARS used to cleanup their squandering mess.

OzarkMichael’s frame is off in “la la land”, as the WORLD WIDE Disaster that the United States and the world has to face up to, was not created by the public’s Liberal Left or the public’s Communist EXTREME Left in any way; on the other hand, both the Liberal left and the public’s Communist EXTREME Left have contributed the tens of trillions of communal dollars from communal resources that is claimed to be the solution, while private Capitalists kept all of their toxic capital and recapitalized their private capital with communal dollars, Communist EXTREME dollars in service to Corporate Capitalists, making Corporate Communism for the FEW capitalists at the expense of the MANY workers.  Has humanity devolved to simulating an ant colony?

The United States’ Private Conservative EXTREME Capitalism has helped Communist China do really well, because Conservative Capitalism that cares only about profit has allowed private profit to reign supreme.  The WORLD WIDE Disaster was created solely by the private Conservative Capitalist EXTREME, the private Conservative Right, in pursuit of cheap labor and short-term profit at the expense of the public’s Common Population of the United States and the common populations of the World.

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By ardee, October 27, 2009 at 12:58 pm Link to this comment

I was late for work this morning and couldnt flesh out my response to the silliness of OzarkMichael ( wasnt he the banjo player in Deliverance?)

You call Martha/Thomas a liberal , I do not recognize her as such and wonder how many of the real liberals here would welcome such an insane one into the fold.

But then, and the main reason you label her as such, you use her stupid remark about “a bullet to the head” to distort liberals as having such agendas. Perhaps in right wing world it is the liberals who foment all the violence.

Perhaps in Michael’s world it was the poor misunderstood righties that protested the slaughter of three million Vietnamese, suffering clubbings and firehoses in the process. Perhaps it was those same right wingers who loudly proclaimed the lies of the Cheney administration, the one that stole at least one election and whose lies caused the deaths of upwards of a million Iraqis. Yeah, in Michael world…...

I know that this poster thinks himself rather sophisticated and subtle…not so much. Not even truthful in fact.

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By MarthaA, October 27, 2009 at 12:33 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael, October 26 at 9:00pm, ardee, October 26 at 3:54pm and ardee, October 27 at 6:49am,

(Page 2 of 2)

Both OzarkMichael’s and ardee’s posts are amorphous nonsense—the United States is going to have to rise above the private Conservative EXTREME polarized amorphous nonsense of the McCarthy Era.  Private Capitalism FAILED.  Private Capitalism has FAILED over, and over, and over again.  The public is going to have to quit being charmed and rise above only the private sector getting profit.  No amorphous nonsense can distract from the fact that Private Capitalism has FAILED the United States’ public economy.  The public’s citizens cannot allow themselves to continue being private capitalists’ commodities without receiving any benefit whatsoever.

The last private Capitalism FAILURE was in 2008-2009 with the collapse of the United States public economy and the world, just as private Capitalism FAILED in 1929 and, as usual, private Zombie Capitalism is always brought back to life by public Communism, the public’s collective resources of the communities of the United States——the masses of the American public’s commune of taxpayers, that are always relied upon through public Communism to hold up private Capitalism at the expense of the public’s Communities of the population of the United States so that the public always ends up having to pay back the outrageous, exorbitant losses and debt that private Capitalist squanderers squander away from the working public’s communal resources, which is all the communities of the entire population, and even squander the public’s infrastructure, forcing the public’s communal resources to be responsible for private capitalists’ squandering at the public’s expense in order for the private Capitalism Zombie to return to life, and live on in support of private Capitalists, so that private Zombie Capitalism’s Zombie Capitalists will be able to continually eat the brains of the masses of the American population in a continuing effort to take advantage of the public by their continued pursuit of cheap labor, short-term profit and private benefit for the top few private Zombie Capitalists at the expense of the public’s many workers of the American population.  Dr. Frankenstein as a private Conservative controls Zombie Capitalism’s profits on Wall Street and because of the “socialist public” will give bonuses and party hearty this Halloween without any regard to the harm his Zombie Capitalism caused.

I am a proud patriotic Liberal; what I say defines me as does what each of you say also defines you.  What OzarkMichael or ardee purport that I say is amorphous nonsense and further defines who and what they are——both use amorphous nonsense subjective frames to avoid objective response when answering either my posts or ThomasG’s posts.  It appears to me that both OzarkMichael and ardee are following the Grassfire.org/Dick Armey Conservative Alliance that is for Private capitalists using, abusing, and bleeding the Public, which must stop and Socialized Capitalism, which is a mixture of both Socialism/Communism and Capitalism is the way to stop the endless bleeding, so that the public will be able to retrieve their dignity and be able to be more than chattel commodities for the private capitalists.

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By Leefeller, October 27, 2009 at 8:27 am Link to this comment

Yes foots!

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By ThomasG, October 27, 2009 at 7:48 am Link to this comment

Leefeller, September 22 at 9:57am,

foots?

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By ardee, October 27, 2009 at 3:49 am Link to this comment

Gee, Ozark, I guess you just cant help posting like an ass, so sad for you.

Martha happened to make a point with which I agreed, a rare occurrence, but one that even you, very occasionally indeed, do as well.

I am not adverse to noting agreement when it is present, just as I do not withhold my opinions of fools like you. Right wing disruptor is what you are, just as Thomas/Martha is increasingly out there in neverneverland.

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By OzarkMichael, October 26, 2009 at 6:00 pm Link to this comment

ardee asked me: Are you enjoying yourself in conversing with the insane?

What, you worry that i dont like our little talks?

When you say things that are false i just correct you. That is basically our relationship and I am satisfied with it. I dont always answer you because I am busy. But lets have a chat…

It wasnt that long ago, ardee, when you agreed with Martha, and your main criticism of her was that she was in danger of being like me. And then you changed your tactics and suggested that she is a right winger, which was a good joke. At least I thought it was joke.

Because everyone knows that communism is the extreme Left, and thats where Martha is at. She would like to see conservatives imprisoned and shot in the head. She has said so in a post attacking me. She has a Stalin or maybe a Mao thing going.

So she is politically on the far Left, a little farther Left than Folktruther.  She is your fellow traveller, on your side of the aisle. Her views are Leftist and that is how she defines herself. You may want to disown her, but dont think you can push her over to me on the Right. A little intellectual honesty please.

It wasnt that long ago that i pointed out how Martha/thomas was alienating other Leftists who could at least be her tentative allies, and after I wrote she did her usual number, to which ardee responded:

It has finally happened! I am in full agreement with a post of MarthaA.

Ozark fails miserably to see the increasing stridency of his positions, the way he is forced to alter and distort the meaning and intent of the words of others to make his own sad points. It is also sad that he believes no one notices…..goodbye credibility, goodbye respect, goodbye Michael.

Martha, I would respectfully ask you to note that you also follow in the footsteps of this “person” when you charge all who dare to see things differently than do you as agents, spies, or whatever. Is this really the company you wish to keep?

Such respect for Martha. Such brotherly concern. “Dont be like OM, is this really the company you wish to keep?” Oh yes, you acknowledged her as a fellow traveller. Oh, how you hoped she would clean up her act and be a better Leftist.

A post agreeing with Martha, trying to coach her, and simultaneously attacking me… was just so tempting, and so easy for you to write, ardee. But it was a blunder.

As far as “agents, spies”, etc… I have never called anyone anywhere on the forum or in the US a spy or agent. So that was a gratuitous lie on your part. I did not remark upon it at the time, ardee, because I dont usually have time to respond to such drivel. But three times now you have sniped at me as i defend myself against an important Leftist attack which removes my right to dissent from Leftist dogma.

It would be nice if principled people would assist a little. You know the old “I dont agree with your opinions but i would fight for your right to express them”? Thats what i am fishing for. Thats my reason for continued argument with Martha.

Think of Martha as a test for Leftists. She is an opportunity for you to learn something: There is an edge, a drop-off, where the Left becomes the far Left, where the Left’s good principles get increasingly mixed with hatred and violence, until it turns into a nightmare no better than fascism.

No one needs to step up and admit that I am right. Hopefully someone quietly learns something. 

Just to be clear, i dont think you are insane, ardee. That part was a joke.

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By archivesDave, October 26, 2009 at 1:59 pm Link to this comment

Elisalouisa:
Glad u are enjoying ‘The Syndicate’ and on the subject of media control, it most definitely goes far beyond the borders of the United States.

Prior to the Nov 2008, G 20 meeting last year, two of
their primary platform issues listed on their website
were control of the media and a new global currency.
Interestingly enough, immediately after the sessions
adjourned, both issues were removed. 
Keep a very close eye peeled on this nefarious group
and it’s collusive endeavors with the WTO, IMF, and
UN.
While most continue to banter about the disastrous actions of each political party, the real ‘bankster’ /‘corpster’, culprits/terrorists, continue to ploy their dastardly deeds unimpeded and just as Hitler did, publish their objectives openly for all to see.

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By ThomasG, October 26, 2009 at 1:24 pm Link to this comment

ardee, October 26 at 3:54pm,

Blah.

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By ardee, October 26, 2009 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael, October 26 at 3:05 pm

Are you enjoying yourself in conversing with the insane?

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By ThomasG, October 26, 2009 at 12:22 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael, October 26 at 3:05pm,

Blah.  Read Adolph Hitler’s “Mein Kampf” and get your Mama to explain it to you, once you have accomplished this task, I would be happy to discuss “Mein Kampf” and the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST use of “Mein Kampf” as a handbook for the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Movement.

You are apparently following Adolph Hitler’s “Mein Kampf” as a handbook receiving instructions out of it from your Boiler Room minders; after you have read “Mein Kampf” and had your Mama explain it to you, perhaps we can have a conversation that does not include your Boiler Room minders of the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Movement; from my perspective this would be a more productive dialogue.

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By Leefeller, October 26, 2009 at 12:10 pm Link to this comment

Inanimate objects make great conversation if one is a bit or a lot tiched, otherwise crickets!

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By OzarkMichael, October 26, 2009 at 12:05 pm Link to this comment

Thomas/Martha said As usual Right-Winger Ozark “Adolph” Michael provides amorphous nonsensical subjective claims without any objectivity at all, based on the political process Adolph Hitler recorded in his book “Mein Kampf”.

Prove it. This ought to be really good.

Prove that my defense of a free press is from Mein Kampf.

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By ThomasG, October 26, 2009 at 11:33 am Link to this comment

OzarkMichael, October 26 at 12:34am,

As usual Right-Winger Ozark “Adolph” Michael provides amorphous nonsensical subjective claims without any objectivity at all, based on the political process Adolph Hitler recorded in his book “Mein Kampf”.

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By WeMadeAmistake, October 26, 2009 at 11:31 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

In September the treasury department reported they spent $46.6 Billion more than they brought in.  September is a month that usually shows a surplus.  You can complain all you want libtards, but President Zero and his DEMarxists in Congress are writing the checks.  This is unsustainable and President Zero is turning our country into his form of a Zimbabwe.  By the way, 3 eggs in that country now cost $100 Billion and the population uses that paper currency to decorate walls on public streets.

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By Leefeller, October 26, 2009 at 10:48 am Link to this comment

FYI: following the treads can be confusing especially if one is not only going to kick the tire, but planning to place ones head under it.

The problem for me is discerning posters comments from other peoples “quotes’.  I have trouble seeing italics on the screen, sometimes I catch them, other times I do not, which may explain reason for some of my comments. (a feeble excuse) 

This is only a request not in anyway intended to be pushy, demanding, insulting or absolutist or black and white in a MA way!

On the other hand since my name may not be in the quote or italics on the post, it probably may not be my business, so belay everything I mentioned if you have not already done so!

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By OzarkMichael, October 26, 2009 at 10:18 am Link to this comment

ardee said: Only in right wing world would Martha be considered a Leftist. She would be cast out of any such group rather instantly. What she is really is much more prosaic, an apologist for the Democratic Party and its rightward march.

This might be a joke on your part. If so, its pretty funny and i might go along with it.

But if you really mean it there is a bridge on the Potaomac I can sell you.

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By elisalouisa, October 26, 2009 at 4:43 am Link to this comment

So well said archivesDave.  ‘The Syndicate’  refers to a shadow government in
control of much that what is going on and is an eye opener. I have ordered ‘The
Creature From Jekyll Island’, not only because of your recommendation but the
Amazon reviewers give it such a high rating. Those in control of the news media
must know what is going on, yet, they spew out the same lies as to the war in
Afghanistan, Iraq, Wall Street and Washington. So sad. Nice to see your post and
look forward to reading ‘The Creature From Jekyll Island’.

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By ardee, October 26, 2009 at 3:52 am Link to this comment

OzarkMichael, October 26 at 12:34 am

Only in right wing world would Martha be considered a Leftist. She would be cast out of any such group rather instantly. What she is really is much more prosaic, an apologist for the Democratic Party and its rightward march. All the bullshit about kicking out DINO’s and moving the party leftward is nothing more or less than a smoke screen to keep people from leaving that party in droves.

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By Leefeller, October 25, 2009 at 10:48 pm Link to this comment

Divisive discourse seems detrimental to reason, for reason would see that!

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By archivesDave, October 25, 2009 at 10:35 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA:
My heart really does go out to you: Your bitterness is gobbling up your Karma, big time!!!
You still don’t get it that your enemy is NOT the Republicans, Evangelicals, Conservatives, Libertarians, etc. 
The Globalist Banksters and ‘Corpsters’ have now taken over BOTH major parties as well as a good portion of the minor ones, even much of the Evangelicals:  (If u want a hoot of a read, pick up a copy of ‘The Family’ by Sharlet).
And I still doubt if you would even DARE to peruse such books as ‘The Creature From Jekyll Island’ or ‘The Syndicate’ by Hagger. 
No, you just want to go on blindly with your parochial rants believing this whole global thrust
is just a bunch of cabalistic BS.
You WILL eventually wake up I hope, but not anytime
soon I’m afraid!

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By OzarkMichael, October 25, 2009 at 9:34 pm Link to this comment

Now the Right-Wing’s organized Conservative Sophists and Propagandists are using the same subjective propaganda against the citizens of the United States, this time aiming to demonize President Barack Obama, along with Liberalism, the Left and liberals, being fed by Conservative secular talk radio…

Cant take any criticism so you have to resort to making it illegal for me to express what I believe?

Awwww. Cry more, little Leftist. Its really all you can do. You write nothing thats creative, nothing interesting, nothing informitive, just the same phrases over and over. Its only propaganda.

You will have to put up with my criticism, which you merely call all sorts of names but never get around to refuting. Even with 2 and 3 page long posts, you dont say anything worth reading. Subjective amorphous nonsense.

By the way, I am not going to be jailed for speaking my mind as MarthaA has hoped for.  Nor will I ever be ‘shot in the head’ at least without putting up a fight.

Yeah martha, you are the one who promised that violence against me. Its so totally Stalin. Or maybe Mao? Martha hasnt fessed up as to who her totalitarian hero is yest.

Anyway, if anyone is interestested I will link to MarthaA’s wonderful quote where she promises me a “bullet in the head” till i “no longer wiggle”.

Why dont you reprint that awful post MarthaA? Or expand upon its meaning?

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By MarthaA, October 25, 2009 at 12:47 am Link to this comment

OzarkMichael, October 22 at 10:57pm,

(Page 1 of 2)

The specious Conservative Republican Mantra declares EXTREME conservatism as the one and only ultimate goal for good, and consistently uses conservatism destructively without constructive purpose by the use of sophism and subjective propaganda vilifying the Left, Liberalism and liberals.

Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Republicans and Conservative EXTREMIST Democrats infesting the Left, since Goldwater have organizationally propagandized Liberalism, the Left and liberals as bad for government,  vigorously vilifying Liberalism, liberals and the Left, that represents the public sector, the Common MAJORITY Population, the Left, liberals, in order to gain power, authority and control for the PRIVATE SECTOR over the PUBLIC SECTOR of the population against the will of the people, the Left, the liberals.

And, the beat goes on with the highly corporate paid Right-Wing’s Conservative EXTREMIST’s sophism and subjective propaganda continually vilifying liberals, Liberalism and the Left, by organized conservative organizations, sophists and propagandists to name a few are Grassfire.org - a Republican conservative army of fear campaign, ResistNet.com, Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Newt Gingrich, Bill O’Reilly, Sean Hannity, Bill Kristol, Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, Ralph Reed, Dick Armey’s Freedom Works sophist emotional propaganda uprising; Freedom Works orchestrates grassroots movements to serve corporate clients——a Think Progress Report, and Grover Norquist, who, with the assistance of the conservative EXTREMISTS is into drowning the public’s safety net in the bath tub.  Norquist stated in May 2000, “Cutting the government in half in one generation is both an ambitious and reasonable goal, if we work hard we will accomplish this and more by 2025. Then the conservative movement can set a new goal. I have a recommendation: To cut government in half again by 2050, I don’t want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub.” Norquist was in on the ground floor of the destructive Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Movement.

The above leaders of the Conservative organized polarized HATE-FILLED racial sophism and subjective propaganda movement by the Right-Wing’s Conservative Sophism and

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By MarthaA, October 25, 2009 at 12:40 am Link to this comment

OzarkMichael, October 22 at 10:57pm,

(Page 2 of 2)

Propaganda Chorus that is spewed consistently in all forms of the media to polarize the political environment against the Left, Liberalism and liberals, as was happening in the days prior to President John F. Kennedy being murdered in Dallas, Texas, almost 50 years ago; and when Adolph Hitler rose to power in Germany. Now the Right-Wing’s organized Conservative Sophists and Propagandists are using the same subjective propaganda against the citizens of the United States, this time aiming to demonize President Barack Obama, along with Liberalism, the Left and liberals, being fed by Conservative secular talk radio, Conservative religious evangelical and Mormon talk radio and the Conservative FOX Media Network in a virtual crusade of Right-Wing sophism and subjective vile propagandistic fantasies highly charged to create paranoia, fear and violence against the President of the United States, Liberalism, the Left and liberals.

There is NO social conservative or fiscal conservative representing the Political Left in politics——SOCIAL CONSERVATIVE is an oxymoron, there are only political conservatives in politics. 

Politics is representation of constituents in their best interest and non-constituents against their best interest.  Conservatives represent constituents of the wealthy PRIVATE SECTOR, the Elite Capitalist Class——Liberals represent constituents of the PUBLIC SECTOR, the Common Majority. No conservative represents anyone from the public sector.

POLITICAL CONSERVATIVES on the Left represent the liberal Public losing money, as Political CONSERVATIVES in politics ONLY represent big Private money and conserve the wealth from the PUBLIC SECTOR’S coffers of the nation to the big PRIVATE SECTOR’S coffers of the wealthy elite and powerful corporations to reinforce their power and authority over the Left, liberals and Liberalism, at the expense of the Left, the PUBLIC SECTOR, the Common Population, the liberals.

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By MarthaA, October 25, 2009 at 12:39 am Link to this comment

OzarkMichael, October 22 at 10:57pm,

(Page 2 of 2)

Propaganda Chorus that is spewed consistently in all forms of the media to polarize the political environment against the Left, Liberalism and liberals, as was happening in the days prior to President John F. Kennedy being murdered in Dallas, Texas, almost 50 years ago; and when Adolph Hitler rose to power in Germany. Now the Right-Wing’s organized Conservative Sophists and Propagandists are using the same subjective propaganda against the citizens of the United States, this time aiming to demonize President Barack Obama, along with Liberalism, the Left and liberals, being fed by Conservative secular talk radio, Conservative religious evangelical and Mormon talk radio and the Conservative FOX Media Network in a virtual crusade of Right-Wing sophism and subjective vile propagandistic fantasies highly charged to create paranoia, fear and violence against the President of the United States, Liberalism, the Left and liberals.

There is NO social conservative or fiscal conservative representing the Political Left in politics——SOCIAL CONSERVATIVE is an oxymoron, there are only political conservatives in politics.

Politics is representation of constituents in their best interest and non-constituents against their best interest.  Conservatives represent constituents of the wealthy PRIVATE SECTOR, the Elite Capitalist Class——Liberals represent constituents of the PUBLIC SECTOR, the Common Majority. No conservative represents anyone from the public sector.

POLITICAL CONSERVATIVES on the Left represent the liberal Public losing money, as Political CONSERVATIVES in politics ONLY represent big Private money and conserve the wealth from the PUBLIC SECTOR’S coffers of the nation to the big PRIVATE SECTOR’S coffers of the wealthy elite and powerful corporations to reinforce their power and authority over the Left, liberals and Liberalism, at the expense of the Left, the PUBLIC SECTOR, the Common Population, the liberals.

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By ThomasG, October 23, 2009 at 2:58 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael, October 22 at 10:57pm,

Cry me a river, Right-Winger.  Newt Gingrich declared, when the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS were in power, that the Right was going to do whatever they wanted to do, and if the Left did not like it that the Left would have to “get used to it” ——Do you remember Newt Gingrich and the “Get Used to it” edict to the Left?  I and my family remember.  What goes around comes around.

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By OzarkMichael, October 22, 2009 at 7:57 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA said: Vilifying conservatism as bad, or declaring that conservatism is the one and only ultimate goal for good, as has been the Republican Mantra, are both specious arguments, because conservatism can be used for both good or bad, constructively without destructive purpose, or destructively without constructive purpose, as has been the case with the Republican EXTREMIST Conservative administrations since Goldwater that have vilified liberalism as bad in order to gain power, authority and control against the will of the people.

Its a good thing we have people like MarthaA to tell us which types of conservatives are bad. Its a good thing we have Obama to do the same sort of thing for us. Obama tells us which news outlets to listen to. And which one we shouldnt listen to, namely… Fox news.

But congratulations are in order for Truthdig, who got not just one but two of their writers invited to speak with Obama for an intimate two and a half hour meeting about proper punditry and reporting.

I dont know about you, but I feel so much safer knowing that Truthdig is a US Government approved source for news and opinion. The mainstream media is finally going to get organized and in line with the President’s wishes.

Dont you all agree that the US President should tell the citizens which news station to listen to? And which pundits to read? And which talk shows to listen to? And maybe pass some laws to force the ‘bad’ news outlets to change their programming? 

Although if a conservative wins the next election and tries to do the same thing to liberal news outlets, that may seem like a bad idea to you. Surely if a conservative President did this you would all worry that its a fascist tactic to try and control the press.

But I will be there to cheer you up, and remind you of this day, when you approved whole heartedly of Obama doing the exact same thing. You will take heart and be glad that Obama’s legacy of “change” marches on, and you will support the next President’s attempt to shut down… I dont know… maybe… Truthdig!

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By archivesDave, October 22, 2009 at 4:11 pm Link to this comment

Thanx Elisalouise,
Glad you’re getting a lot out of Hagger as did I.
He is most certainly a very fascinating character and
brilliant in his research.
I read his books in the same manner, perusing thru
what I like and find the most pertinent.  Have you read
Griffin’s book, ‘The Creature From Jekyll Island’ yet.
He’s a man who has also done his homework and gives much insight on US history in the past century and how the events of today (and tomorrow) relate.
We are now at the centennial point of the conception
and birth of the Fed Reserve and it is becoming my
perspective that our nation’s economic problem will
be ‘solved’ by simply ratcheting up the Fed Reserve
concept into the coming Global System much as the
original thirteen states’ humongous debts were rolled up into the Union at the encouragement of Alexander Hamilton.

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By elisalouisa, October 22, 2009 at 3:54 pm Link to this comment

archivesDave: Thanks for recommending “The Syndicate” by Nicholas Hagger. I
have quoted from it on Truthdig. Once about the microbiologists employed by
Israel’s Institute for Biological Research(p. 190) and another time concerning the
CentGas pipeline planned to go through Afghanistan. (p. 208). I find the book
quite interesting and cannot help but feel Mr. Haggar is soft- peddling some very
serious situations. He feels that elections after 2016 will be a thing of the past in
the U.S. I must confess that I have been reading “The Syndicate” in pieces, paging
through and stopping at what interests me.  I quote from p.6 “Whether the
intention of some in the Syndicate is benign the overall effect is malign.” That is
interesting as is his Unitarian Church connection.Haven’t seen your posts lately,
hope we haven’t scared you away.

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By MarthaA, September 30, 2009 at 4:27 pm Link to this comment

archivesDave, September 28 at 9:23 pm

archivesDave: “Just in case you hadn’t heard Michael Moore on Larry King, even HE stated that he had quite a few ‘conservative’ ideals.”

MarthaA’s answer:  Everyone has conservative ideals; conservatism is a toolhow conservatism is used is the main factor here; example, a blow torch can be used constructively to weld, but you wouldn’t use a blow torch for a tooth brush destructively or to destructively burn your new house down——through sophism and propaganda Conservatism has been being used destructively to tear down the United States of America, which must not continue to be allowed.

Vilifying conservatism as bad, or declaring that conservatism is the one and only ultimate goal for good, as has been the Republican Mantra, are both specious arguments, because conservatism can be used for both good or bad, constructively without destructive purpose, or destructively without constructive purpose, as has been the case with the Republican EXTREMIST Conservative administrations since Goldwater that have vilified liberalism as bad in order to gain power, authority and control against the will of the people.

And the Conservative vilifying beat goes on, as Conservative organized racial polarized hate-filled propaganda of the Right-Wing’s Conservative Sophistry and Propaganda Chorus is being spewed consistently in the media to polarize the political environment, as was happening in the days prior to President John F. Kennedy being murdered in Dallas, Texas, almost 50 years ago; now the Right-Wing’s Conservative Sophists and Propagandists are doing the same thing, this time aiming to demonize President Barack Obama, Liberalism and the Liberal Left; being fed by Conservative Talk Radio, Religious Conservative Talk Radio and Fox News in a virtual crusade of sophism and vile propagandistic fantasies highly charged to create paranoia, fear and violence against the President of the United States, Liberalism and the Liberal Left, as the following few quotes portray:

1. “We need segregated buses… In Obama’s America, the white kids now get beat up with the black kids cheering, ‘Yah, right on, right on, right on, right on,”——Rush Limbaugh

2. “...  monkeys came running out of the jungle, and they grabbed the golf balls ...and the rule was, you have to play the ball where the monkey throws it.” ——Rep. Roy Blunt, Congressman R-MO

3. Obama “is most certainly creating a climate of hate against” Jews.——Michael Savage

4. Obama has… a “deep-seated hatred for white people… and white culture.”——Glenn Beck

5. “Adolf Hitler, like Barack Obama, also ruled by dictate.”——Rush Limbaugh

6. “The invasion of illegal aliens is threatening the health of many Americans.”——Lou Dobbs

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By ThomasG, September 30, 2009 at 3:14 pm Link to this comment

Neoconservatism——EXTREMIST Conservatives’ wisdom was, is and will continue to be foolishness.

If foolishness is treated as if it is wisdom, a fool will expect to be treated as one who is wise; the Right-Wing EXTREMIST Conservative Republican Movement from Goldwater through Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II was, is and continues to be foolishness that was widely regarded as wisdom, and as a result Right-Wing EXTREMIST Conservatives come to look upon themselves as wise; and widely expressed indignant sophist outrage in their Media Echo-Chamber in support of their conservative foolishness.

The fullness of time has shown that the wisdom of the Conservative Movement was the wisdom of foolishness and greed of a minority population of EXTREMIST Conservatives, who for their own self-serving purposes, destroyed the economy of the United States of America, bankrupted the United States of America with “borrow and spend” governance, deindustrialized the United States of America and created a mercantile economy in the United States of America based upon Asian imports, financialized the economy of the United States of America and inflated the financial bubble they created to the extent that when it broke, it brought down not just the economy of the United States of America, but the economy of the entire World, and resulted in socialized responsibility having to spend tens of trillions of dollars to clean up the Conservative Mess that conservative foolishness represents with sophist rage and indignation as The New World Order, that conservative foolishness represents with all of the sound and fury that signifies NOTHING, other than destroying the economy of the United States of America with borrow and spend governance and leaving a massive mess for socialized responsibility to pay to have cleaned up that has cost tens of trillions of dollars already, and the cost is still climbing.

It is of the utmost importance that the conservatives and the Conservative Movement show contrite repentance for the damage they have done to the United States of America as a nation and make every effort to repay the cost of what the conservatives and the Conservative Movement has done, and if not, that they be brought to be punished by Act of Congress, so that the cycle of socialized responsibility for privatized benefit can be brought to an end.

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By MarthaA, September 30, 2009 at 1:47 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

I have waited for you to tell me about conservatism since you are so fond of conservatism, but you haven’t, and you should know what you follow like the back of your hand.  Besides Emerson’s description of “The Conservative” at the following site http://www.emersoncentral.com/conservative.htm, a good description of conservatism is in a post by ThomasG as follows:

Both Conservative and Liberal idealism  can be used as a weapon for and against constructive purpose.

The current alpha numeric system that we use in the United States and the World has resulted in technological advances that Sandscrit most likely could not have enabled; in this sense to liberally adapt from Sandscrit to the current alpha numeric system and conservatively maintain that system is and was beneficial to society http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit.

Creative change, Liberalism, allows for progress in the world and has led the world from Sumeria and Sandscrit to the development of the world as it exists today.

Conservative maintenance, Conservatism, had it been applied in Sumeria with sufficient force may have been able to conserve Sandscrit and stave off creative change that has led the world to where it is today, but would any thoughtful reasonable person want that type of ossified conservative idealism to have restricted creative change that led creative innovation and development to where it is in the world today.

When we consider Conservatism and Liberalism today, without greedy concerns of self-interest in the moment, we must view Conservatism and Liberalism as weapons that can be used constructively without destructive purpose and destructively without constructive purpose; to the extent that Conservatism and Liberalism are used destructively without constructive purpose for the greater good, they are both harmful to civilization; to the extent that Conservatism and Liberalism are used constructively, without destructive purpose for the greater good, they are both helpful to the creative advancement of civilization and the greater good.

A binary choice between Conservative and Liberal where one is good and one is evil does not serve society and civilization in the greater good, and is a false choice.

The true choice for Conservatism and Liberalism is the cause and effect of how they are applied to serve the greater good of society and civilization, or serve the greater greed of political opportunity seeking personal benefit contrary to the greater good of society and civilization.

Conservatism since the time of Goldwater through Reagan, Bush I and Bush II has served the greater greed of Right-Wing conservative political opportunists seeking personal benefit contrary to the greater good of society and civilization, both in the United States and in the World; this destructive type of conservatism must not be allowed, by sophism, to diminish the damage destructive conservatism has done, reinvent itself, and resurrect the Conservative Movement and start all over again, as has been the history of the “economic cycle of capitalism” that relies on “socialist responsibility” to pay for and clean up destructive conservatism’s cyclical recurring mess.

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By MarthaA, September 30, 2009 at 1:46 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

I have waited for you to tell me about conservatism since you are so fond of conservatism, but you haven’t, and you should know what you follow like the back of your hand.  Besides Emerson’s description of “The Conservative” at the following site http://www.emersoncentral.com/conservative.htm, a good description of conservatism is in a post by ThomasG as follows:

Both Conservative and Liberal idealism  can be used as a weapon for and against constructive purpose.

The current alpha numeric system that we use in the United States and the World has resulted in technological advances that Sandscrit most likely could not have enabled; in this sense to liberally adapt from Sandscrit to the current alpha numeric system and conservatively maintain that system is and was beneficial to society http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit.

Creative change, Liberalism, allows for progress in the world and has led the world from Sumeria and Sandscrit to the development of the world as it exists today.

Conservative maintenance, Conservatism, had it been applied in Sumeria with sufficient force may have been able to conserve Sandscrit and stave off creative change that has led the world to where it is today, but would any thoughtful reasonable person want that type of ossified conservative idealism to have restricted creative change that led creative innovation and development to where it is in the world today.

When we consider Conservatism and Liberalism today, without greedy concerns of self-interest in the moment, we must view Conservatism and Liberalism as weapons that can be used constructively without destructive purpose and destructively without constructive purpose; to the extent that Conservatism and Liberalism are used destructively without constructive purpose for the greater good, they are both harmful to civilization; to the extent that Conservatism and Liberalism are used constructively, without destructive purpose for the greater good, they are both helpful to the creative advancement of civilization and the greater good.

A binary choice between Conservative and Liberal where one is good and one is evil does not serve society and civilization in the greater good, and is a false choice.

The true choice for Conservatism and Liberalism is the cause and effect of how they are applied to serve the greater good of society and civilization, or serve the greater greed of political opportunity seeking personal benefit contrary to the greater good of society and civilization.

Conservatism since the time of Goldwater through Reagan, Bush I and Bush II has served the greater greed of Right-Wing conservative political opportunists seeking personal benefit contrary to the greater good of society and civilization, both in the United States and in the World; this destructive type of conservatism must not be allowed, by sophism, to diminish the damage destructive conservatism has done, reinvent itself, and resurrect the Conservative Movement and start all over again, as has been the history of the “economic cycle of capitalism” that relies on “socialist responsibility” to pay for and clean up destructive conservatism’s cyclical recurring mess.

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By archivesDave, September 28, 2009 at 6:23 pm Link to this comment

Martha,
Just in case you hadn’t heard Michael Moore on Larry King, even HE stated that he had quite a few ‘conservative’ ideals.
Hmmmmm, guess you better disassociate from him now as well!...

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By OzarkMichael, September 28, 2009 at 12:03 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA asks: You don’t even know what Conservative is, do you?

Hmmm. The question is not so easy to answer. Because i have heard so many defamatory definitions here. Although from conservatives the definitions are too laudable and completely positive.

So what is needed is a definition that is factual and accurate, without partisanship. That is the sort of definition I need.

Try to provide that definition, MarthaA.

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By Leefeller, September 28, 2009 at 10:14 am Link to this comment

Placing a question within a comment seems most disingenuous and simmers with intolerance.

Both extremes, left and right seem intolerant of other than their own agendas, so why is one better than the other? 

Agendas or beliefs promoted as absolutism’s require something some people do not want, disassociation of their ability to use reason.

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By MarthaA, September 28, 2009 at 9:29 am Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

You don’t even know what Conservative is, do you?

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By Leefeller, September 27, 2009 at 6:44 am Link to this comment

OM, my cats help me write, but they just help, they do not compose and write most of my stuff,  like in Folktruthers case, his most famous cat Mousey Tounge.

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By OzarkMichael, September 27, 2009 at 6:01 am Link to this comment

Leefeller gets a dig on Republicans, conservatives, and me all at the same time: MarthaA seems more conservative in her intolerance than most people in the Republican party, it would seem prudent for Martha a to join the Republican party and help them continue in their intolerance agenda.

eheheh. Sometimes, Leefeller, you are so funny that i think there must be another person helping you write.

uh, wait… if thats true then you are the one person, and the second person as well.

Which means that there isnt a person left for MarthA or me to be. We all know that for us three(Lee/Ozark/Martha) there are only two real human beings. It looks like Leefeller has used up both of them. 

It is the most simple explanation so far. Isnt it a principle of Occam that the simple explanantion is probably the true one? 

Paradoxically, I seem to have used a little thought to prove that I dont exist.

So while Leefeller rides off into the sunset as two people (with a nifty pink cape thrown in), all I have is Cogito Ergo Nil.

The only question left unsettles is: Leefeller, which one of you gets to wear the nifty pink cape?

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By Leefeller, September 26, 2009 at 8:32 pm Link to this comment

Ozark Michael, Martha a seems more conservative in her intolerance than most people in the Republican party, it would seem prudent for Martha a to join the Republican party and help them continue in their intolerance agenda. Martha a should not be in the Democratic party, this may solve the whole Martha a problem?  Confusion may be Democratic party seems more and more like the Republican party and most people cannot tell the difference.  For balance I vote Martha a become a Republican then the Democratic party would be balanced.

Leefeller, did you know Ozark Michael was independent? No, I did not, I thought he was a Repulican.

Ozark Michael, I am still missing my pink tights and pink cape. Leefeller

PS. It is very difficult to be two people at the same time.

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By OzarkMichael, September 26, 2009 at 8:12 pm Link to this comment

Democratic Party needs to purge the CONSERVATIVES and Moderates from the Left to level the balance, so there will be Liberals on the Left, the Democratic Party, to balance the CONSERVATIVES and Moderates on the Right, the Republican Party for government to work properly

There is always something underneath a rock. It looks calm on the outside but if you can get a crowbar under it and flip it over there are gonna be bugs or a snakes. In the same way MarthaA’s request for balance “for government to work properly” looks nice on the outside, but underneath it there is a creepy long term goal.  What is it?

being a member doesn’t matter to a political person like you, does it?

You want me to join the Republican party instead of remain independant? Well, i know you dont like Republicans being stronger, nor do you like me. This doesnt make sense so it is some kind of clue to your creepy goal.

There is something underlying MarhaA’s call for “balance”, something that advances her extreme leftist power.

Anyone have any guesses?

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By elisalouisa, September 26, 2009 at 2:33 pm Link to this comment

archivesDave:Dan Brown’s “The Da Vince Code” was a disappointment to me as
many best sellers are. I really couldn’t get into it and found much of the drama
staged so I won’t be buying anymore of his books. All the Global Economy talk
may be but a prelude to coming world government; making “The Syndicate”  an
interesting choice. Will keep you posted.

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By MarthaA, September 26, 2009 at 1:44 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael and/or Leefeller,

MarthaA’s Voter Registration Number is 660085710 and I AM a 2009 Democratic Party MEMBER #94000419. Are you a member of your Republican Party?  I expect you are surely registered to vote, but you’re not actually a member of any political party, are you?——just playing the political game for the Republican members, as your registering to vote doesn’t make you a member of a political party at all, but being a member doesn’t matter to a political person like you, does it?

The reason I am of the opinion that all CONSERVATIVE and Moderate members should be purged from the Democratic Party is because there are NO LIBERALS in the Republican Party and the Political Spectrum is tilted too far to the Right.  The Democratic Party needs to purge the CONSERVATIVES and Moderates from the Left to level the balance, so there will be Liberals on the Left, the Democratic Party, to balance the CONSERVATIVES and Moderates on the Right, the Republican Party for government to work properly.  Right now the Left/Right Teeter-Totter has the Left up in the air account NO BALANCE whatsoever.

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By OzarkMichael, September 26, 2009 at 8:27 am Link to this comment

Three names on truthdig: OzarkMichael, MarthaA, and Leefeller.

According to MarthaA, there are three names but only two real people behind are them. This assertion stated with her usual vehemence. 

Now, MarthaA’s answer to this puzzle is that Leefeller and i are the same person, while she is the other person.

But my answer is that Leefeller is the one person, and I am the other person. Which means that by the time we get to MarthaA there isnt a person left for her to be.

By her own assertion, one concludes that there isnt a real person behind the writings of MarthaA.

There are computer programs that spout answers randomly from its selection of stock phrases, which would explain how ‘MarthaA’ comes up with her odd random answers that have nothing to do with the questions we ask her.

Its the only explanation that satisfies logic and humanity.

Three Truthdig names(OzarkMichael, Leefeller, MarthaA) but only two human beings.

You do the math.

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By Leefeller, September 26, 2009 at 7:35 am Link to this comment

If anyone is going to remove someone from either of the political parties, or sort of develop a criteria for Party membership. It would be great to start with a very important requirement, something which now seems absent in large degree and unfortunately is missing from both parties and Folktruther.

(An ability to use reason!)

Here on TD, discussion between Martha and Ozark Michael has helped me focus on the problem.

If reason was one requirement for belonging to a political party, say, between Ozark Michale and Martha only one would seem to fulfill this requirement or criteria to join. (guess which one?)

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By archivesDave, September 26, 2009 at 6:31 am Link to this comment

Thnx Elisalouisa,
I’m sure you will enjoy reading it and get a LOT out of it!!!  After that you will probably be hooked as I was a couple yrs ago and get a few more of his history and possibly philosophy and poetry.
Amazingly, most of what he’s written about is coming to pass, even the cabalistic stuff.
I’m thinking about getting Dan Brown’s new book but there’s a lot of fiction in it I understand.
Keep me posted..

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By elisalouisa, September 26, 2009 at 6:03 am Link to this comment

archivesDave: After viewing the website of Nicholas Hagger I have placed an order
for The Syndicate and look forward to reading it. Thank you for your informative
and well written posts.

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By archivesDave, September 24, 2009 at 8:42 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther:
“mindless pablum” huh….I can go along with that since
pablum is essential food and what I am trying to tell you is as much spiritual as it is physical and cerebral. 
Oh, and u might want to do a little more research on exactly what ‘projection’ is and how it relates to the
Hegelian procedures that both govt and global industry
are so adept at.

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By MarthaA, September 24, 2009 at 3:20 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

Did I say anything about your Republican Party? I didn’t, only the Democratic Party. You Conservatives and Moderates are welcome to stay in the Republican Party.

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By Folktruther, September 24, 2009 at 9:25 am Link to this comment

thank you for your comment, archivesDave.  I think it is mindless pablum but you appear to be an honest person.  Keep commenting, your worldview will evolve.  As Brecht says, we can make a new start with our last breath.

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By OzarkMichael, September 23, 2009 at 7:29 pm Link to this comment

The conservatives and the moderates need to be removed from the Democratic Party, as conservative and liberal are completely opposite, which defeats the purpose of balance.

What is ‘the purpose of balance’ anyway? Is this a real concept or is MarthaA making it up to propel her EXTREMIST goals?

If she isnt making it up, does she really believe in that principle?  Because we all know that ‘balance’ between conservative and liberal is definitely not MarthaAs goal. She wants to outlaw conservatism. Dont you, MarthaA?

Just this one time, stop hiding and tell the truth. Or will you back down yet again?

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By Leefeller, September 23, 2009 at 8:04 am Link to this comment

Absoluteness can be seen as ball and chain of the mind, limiting horizons or visions with blinders on. Life is but a flicker in the cosmos, to waste it in such a way seems most sad to me.

Reading other peoples minds seems most presumptuous Folktruther, but one must reason, after all it is Folktruther, though others also seem to do it. 

Entrenching ones ideas in stone to the tune of belief seems to be just another religion. Regurgitating the same simple rules of life over and over as the only way to fly.

Respectfully disagreeing for now or as the wind blows. So, it seems I must take off my bumper stinker, “Question Authority” and change it to “Who’s”

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By archivesDave, September 23, 2009 at 5:52 am Link to this comment

Folktruther:
Re your comment; “It doesn’t matter what people like archivesDave or leefeller think now because they will change when the wind blows in another direction.”
I don’t know exactly how old you are but my seven decades have given me a certain amount of wisdom. 
Granted I began in isolation and naivete and am still changing some of my views almost on a daily basis due to additional data. All of us are here on this earth enrolled in ‘kindergarten’ but   hopefully when we depart from this life, we will ‘graduate’ into the next grade or higher.
At one point in my life, maybe twenty years ago, I was compelled to take my opinions/ values/ beliefs, cast them down, dissect them and take a very cynical look at every one of them.  Gradually then, one by one, I either picked them up and dusted them off, or discarded them realizing they didn’t fit into the overall life’s puzzle that each of us is processing and compiling.
In this past score of years, I’ve had the great
privilege of being a co-owner and president of a medium sized used book store adjoining the University of Washington,  fine tuning my personal and world views while getting to converse with a multitude of exceedingly brilliant minds.
The ‘winds of life’ have blown from numerous
directions in this time frame but they have only tempered my core principles, values, & understanding of current/ near term future events.

It’s obvious to me from your statement that you have never read the works of historians or philosophers such as Nicholas Hagger and those of his ilk and perhaps never will.  You are evidently choosing to remain on the path of those who wish to remain in the ‘choir’ and be preached to by certain guru’s, be they Chomsky, Ginsberg, Sartre, Alex Jones, Hartmann, Beck, etc.  And your statement also gives me pause to wonder if there might not be a certain disclosure of ‘projection’. 
Please don’t interpret my comments as pedantic or patronizing: I’m passing this along to you as if you were a close friend and I also observe some
of my own past walk coming forth from your comment.
Oh, and just in case you haven’t meditated on ‘Desiderata’ recently, I strongly encourage you to
consider it.  The one sentence in it that I somewhat disagree with is: “for always there will be greater and lessor persons than yourself…” 
Each and every one of us is an individual Child of God and each of us is equal in His Sight.  If we honestly believe this, then we will love, respect and accept the down and out beggar/ alcoholic/addict as much as we respect ourselves or anyone else.

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By archivesDave, September 23, 2009 at 5:29 am Link to this comment

Folktruther:
Re your comment; “It doesn’t matter what people like archivesDave or leefeller think now because they will change when the wind blows in another direction.”
I don’t know exactly how old you are but my seven decades have given me a certain amount of wisdom. 

Granted I began in isolation and naivete and am still changing some of my views almost on a daily basis due to additional data. All of us are here on this earth enrolled in ‘kindergarten’ but   hopefully when we depart from this life, we will ‘graduate’ into the next grade or higher.
At one point in my life, maybe twenty years ago, I was compelled to take my opinions/ values/ beliefs, cast them down, disect them and take a very cynical look at every one of them.  Gradually then, one by one, I either picked them up and dusted them off, or discarded them realizing they didn’t fit into the overall life’s puzzle that each of us is processing and compiling.
In this past score of years, I’ve had the great
privilege of being a co-owner and president of a medium sized used book store adjoining the University of Washington,  fine tuning my personal and world views while getting to converse with a multitude of exceedingly brilliant minds.

The ‘winds of life’ have blown from numerous
directions in this time frame but they have only tempered my core principles, values, & understanding of current/ near term future events.

It’s obvious to me from your statement that you have never read the works of historians or philosophers such as Nicholas Hagger and those of his ilk and perhaps never will.  You are evidently choosing to remain on the path of of those who wish to remain in the ‘choir’ and be preached to by certain guru’s, be they Chomsky, Ginsberg, Sartre, Alex Jones, Hartmann, Beck, etc.  And your statement also gives me pause to wonder if there might not be a certain disclosure of ‘projection’. 

Please don’t interpret my comments to you as pedantic or patronizing: I am only passing this along
to you as if you were a close friend and I see some
of my own past coming forth from your comment.

Oh, and just in case you haven’t meditated on ‘Desiderata’ recently, I strongly encourage you to
consider it.  The one sentence in it that I somewhat disagree with is: “for always there will be greater and lessor persons than yourself…” 
Each and every one of us is an individual Child of God and each of us is equal in His Sight.  If we honestly believe this, then we will love, respect and accept the down and out beggar/alcoholic/addict as much as we respect ourselves or anyone else.

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By drbhelthi, September 23, 2009 at 2:19 am Link to this comment

Reading the commentaries of various newsservices reminds me of my German, WWII friend Friedrich, nickname, “Fritz.” He served in a “signal unit” on the Russian front, stopped a bullet with his hip, spent one year in russian confinement. With his deformed hip, he hobbled severely, yet worked his little sawmill til six months before he died. During coffee and cake with him and Erna one evening, Fall 1977, we were discussing opinions of politicians in Germany. Fritz was drung as a skunk. All at once he stood up and shouted, ” all normal people have two things in common: an asshole and an opinion.” I suspect that his “revelation” is valid, disregarding race, religion, and nationality. dr.b_helthi

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By elisalouisa, September 22, 2009 at 6:33 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther 9/22 8:14 pm post
Good post Folktruther. This event is worth looking into, It really changed
everything, People may fear the unthinkable, it takes some getting used to.

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By Folktruther, September 22, 2009 at 5:14 pm Link to this comment

Ardee says:

  “Sadly, the truth of the matter has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the political reality that you folks are losing the people by perpetuating this discussion.

Is this how you hope to accomplish change?”

Yes.  Most people believe what authority tells them until it is safe enough to believe the contrary.  So all cadre organs concentrate on finding intelligenc, courageous and honest people that will stand up for what they believe in. It doesn’t matter what people like ArchivesDave or leefeller think now because they will change when the wind blows in another direction.  Or when authority tells them something different.  If you get the goats, the sheep will follow.

Truthdigger, you are quite right that there are kooks, crackpots and paranoids involved in the 9/11 truth movement.  Some of these are government plants, but most are proabably sincere dingbats.  This occurs with all progressive movements but more so here.

But look at the people who risk career sucide to tell the reality based truth: demolistion experts, physicists, high ex-government officals, engineers, architects, scholars, etc and from around the world.  And look at what they say as copared with what the government has said and done.  That is, look at the evidence and reasoning, not the dingbats.  Or those to cowardly to look. 

The evidence is now conclusive that the government story is a public relations fable.  So what are more plausable scenarios?  The question is important because 9/11-anthrax changed our form of government and the usual historical truth lag has prevented us from acknowledging it.  But until we do, no viable strategy can be developed to serve the population.

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By hopeychangey, September 22, 2009 at 5:01 pm Link to this comment

He’s clearly a narcissist but he’s also really intelligent so it will be interesting to see if he can change (irony intended). He’s had everyone telling him for years that he walks on water so he will obviously believe that until he has a reason not to. The revealing nature of his to-date administration is a great case study. But you’re right YouMadeAMistake if you voted for him. He is in WAY over his head and dangerously either does not know that or dismisses it as so much radicalism.

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By WeMadeAmistake, September 22, 2009 at 2:47 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Obama suffers from a condition in which there is an inflated sense of self-importance and an extreme preoccupation with one’s self.  He has obsessive self-interest, diregards the feelings of others, lacks empathy, requires constant attention and admiration, has unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment, is preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence or ideal love, exaggerates achievements and talents, has feelings of self-importance, takes advantage of other people to achieve his own goals, reacts to criticism with rage, shame, or humiliation.  OBAMA THE NARCISSIST.

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By ardee, September 22, 2009 at 2:29 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA, September 22 at 11:49 am

Now I am worried about you ,Martha…You are losing it big time old girl. What you cite me as quotes of yours were my own words in response to what you posted….Go slower, think harder, take your medication.

Seen your brother of late?

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By Leefeller, September 22, 2009 at 11:32 am Link to this comment

Ray Duray & Leefeller limped into a bar. Leefeller went up the the bartender and said, “Hey, I heard a great Martha joke today.”

The bartender said “hold on right there, you know there is a Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Republicans convention in town by Hooters and all these pissed off folks in the bar are Martha supporters.”

So, Leefeller looked at the people in the bar and said: “Okay, this is just like the Tea Bag convention, so I will tell it slowly!”

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By hopeychangey, September 22, 2009 at 11:20 am Link to this comment

Martha - I agree.  Abu Graib is too good for the do-nothing right-wing ruin-mongers.  Instead, they should all be sentenced to spend the rest of their natural lives living with you.

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By Leefeller, September 22, 2009 at 10:35 am Link to this comment

Speaking of a psychiatric facility, my termination may be coming up next month with good behavior.  Martha, how does one receive termination, without good behavior?

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By MarthaA, September 22, 2009 at 10:15 am Link to this comment

The ones who created the mess was the Right-Wingers, the Right-Wingers need to shut up and get out of the way, Right-Wingers made a mess that was to big to let fail and aren’t making an effort to clean up their mess.

The Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Republicans are the party of NO and EXTREME GREED.  Right-Wingers made a mess that was too big to be allowed to fail and like always the Right-Wingers are standing around complaining and waiting for “Socialized Responsibility for Privatized Benefit” to clean up the Right-Wings mess.

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By MarthaA, September 22, 2009 at 8:49 am Link to this comment

ardee said MarthaA said: “ardee, September 19 at 7:34 am #

MarthaA, September 18 at 8:57 pm

When the Democratic Party was worth a damn it was known as “the big tent party” for its encompassing of left, right and center.

*************************
MarthaA actually said:“By MarthaA, September 18 at 8:57 pm #

ardee,

The conservatives and the moderates need to be removed from the Democratic Party, as conservative and liberal are completely opposite, which defeats the purpose of balance.

Conservatives did not always be on the Left and we need to go back to when the Conservatives stayed strictly on the Right.”

*************************

MarthaA’s answer:  You are lost in your own delusion, making up your own questions, giving me credit for what I didn’t say, and then answering your own questions, as if I were actually involved, when in fact I am not.

You may continue if you choose, and I am certain that you will choose to do so, as you troll for fools and believers.  However, all you will catch is fools and believers who are incapable of thinking for themselves and they, as you no doubt know, will follow the next ardee trolling for them as well as they follow you.

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By MarthaA, September 22, 2009 at 8:46 am Link to this comment

ardee said MarthaA said: “ardee, September 19 at 7:34 am #

MarthaA, September 18 at 8:57 pm

When the Democratic Party was worth a damn it was known as “the big tent party” for its encompassing of left, right and center.

*************************
MarthaA actually said:“By MarthaA, September 18 at 8:57 pm #

ardee,

The conservatives and the moderates need to be removed from the Democratic Party, as conservative and liberal are completely opposite, which defeats the purpose of balance.

Conservatives did not always be on the Left and we need to go back to when the Conservatives stayed strictly on the Right.”

*************************

MarthaA’s answer:  You are lost in your own delusion, making up your own questions, giving me credit for what I didn’t say, and then answering your own questions, as if I were actually involved, when in fact I am not.

You may continue if you choose, and I am certain that you will choose to do so, as you troll for fools and believers.  However, all you will catch is fools and believers who are incapable of thinking for themselves and they, as you no doubt know, will follow the next ardee trolling for them as well as they follow you.

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By Leefeller, September 22, 2009 at 8:45 am Link to this comment

Since I have humdinger bunions on both feet from dancing the River Dance, I would conclude, having one humdinger bunion on one foot as a stroke of good luck.

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By MarthaA, September 22, 2009 at 7:59 am Link to this comment

Obama’s presidency is big enough to succeed——so, if you are a sociopathic Right-Wing sophist EXTREMIST pushing corporate communism for the few at the expense of the many, “be afraid, be very afraid”.

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By MarthaA, September 22, 2009 at 7:41 am Link to this comment

Leefeller,

That was a very enlightened post,————NOT!!!

Can you not connect the question to your own behavior and respond in appropriate context,——or what?

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By Leefeller, September 22, 2009 at 6:57 am Link to this comment

I would consider a person extremely apt at dropping one rock from a bridge on three different peoples foots at the same time, as being quite a good shot and maybe be awarded a rock droppers award of some kind and entered in the Guinness Book of Records.

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By MarthaA, September 22, 2009 at 6:32 am Link to this comment

Ray Duray & Leefeller,

If you were walking under a bridge and someone dropped a really large rock from the top side of the bridge, the rock landed on your foot and mashed it to mush, and then came down to where you were and took the rock away, what proof would you have that you had not inflicted the injury on your own foot, and as a self-destructive person should not be institutionalized in a psychiatric facility to protect you from doing harm to yourself?

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By archivesDave, September 22, 2009 at 12:52 am Link to this comment

Dr B Healthi:
Well stated…  I was giving due thought to Leefellow’s comment and your refutation was more
succinct than I could have made it. 
Dr Ravi Zacharias uses the same strategy in his debates at Oxford, Cambridge, and Harvard.

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By drbhelthi, September 22, 2009 at 12:29 am Link to this comment

No, it is not rhetorical. Think logically. If one writes that there is “no doubt,” one has concluded at some level of consciousness that the premise is correct, i.e., “there is no doubt” - -. The information one has considered in order to draw the conclusion is the “evidence,” and drawing the conclusion is an action. Yes, a mental action, still an action. Thus, one who proceeds to state that there is “no actionable proof” refutes oneself.

Similarly, “secret behavior of various covert government agencies is unprovable by design.”  Yes, but only superficially. Otherwise, your favorite author, “Dr. Peter Dale Scott, UC-Berkeley professor emeritus” would not have been able to “- done a fabulous job over the years sleuthing the secret corridors of power.”

Similarly, the author of the above note, bases ones ideation on “- sharing is nice but when asked”. Who asked her to share the judgmental conclusions stated in her comment?  While it is distressing to me to perceive the emotional hurt underlying this persons ideas, the comment itself is self-refuting. As per normal in our day and time.  dr.b_helthi

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By Leefeller, September 21, 2009 at 8:58 am Link to this comment

Conspiracy theories seemingly like the horn of plenty, exist for the entertainment of the speculators and the selling of books, when they start to become like religion like force fed quotes from the bible, things become annoying to non believers.

Yes big foot exists, the tooth fairy is real, god wrote the bible, someone shot Kennedy from the grassy knoll, 911 was an inside job, so what?  Cults survive on special knowledge which everyone else is unaware.

As far as our government goes, I believe they lie like a rug when they want to, what are you going to do about it, make up speculations and spread them like biblical crap?

If one believes, that is fine, but it would be preferred they keep it to themselves, sharing is nice but when asked.

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By Ray Duray, September 21, 2009 at 8:11 am Link to this comment

drbhelthi,

Re: “Such self-refuting statements are abundant. If there is “no doubt,” how can there be no actionable proof?”

Huh? I guess this a rhetorical question. Of course much of the classified secret behavior of various covert government agencies is unprovable by design.

One of my favorite authors on “deep politics” is Dr. Peter Dale Scott, UC-Berkeley professor emeritus. He’s done a fabulous job over the years sleuthing the secret corridors of power.

http://bit.ly/S09HP

I’ve read “The Road to 9/11” and can recommend it highly.

A plethora of articles is available at: http://www.peterdalescott.net/q.html

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By Leefeller, September 21, 2009 at 7:09 am Link to this comment

archivesDave,

Good points and issues of concern, campaign reform and defined health care. This post may have covered most of the boars teats except one, the blame everything on Israel mode, (I may have missed it)  so I suspect there is room for some more gasping, or is that suckling?

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By archivesDave, September 21, 2009 at 5:50 am Link to this comment

ardee, Truthdigger, trudigger3, Folktruther, drbhelthi, Ray, Volma, Martha, glider, Anarcisse, and Leefellow:
I totally agree with ardee!  This issue has and is being milked like a boar on hormone replacement therapy. 
Don’t you see that this is EXACTLY what the mega honchos are wanting us to do?...spend our time
discussing just how many angels can dance on the head
of a pin: Lobbing hand grenades at each other as the
Titanic slides ever closer into the ‘perfect storm’?

Brings to mind an old Beach Boys Song called:
GET OVER IT..  (If you can’t recall it, you can Google it..)
We all need to take a much greater in depth look at exactly how these Banksters are scheming behind their Hegelian masks and just how close they are to pulling off this Global Plan now closing in so fast.

The elections are just a little over a year away and
we have to be about planning to throw out most of these bastards, n’est pas?

This could well be our last chance before what sovereignty we have left is thrown into the furnace
with the rest of us rabble-rousers.

Two paramount issues must to be addressed and acted upon before next year’s elections:
The National Health Care Plans currently being considered are absolute travesties: There is very
little ‘healthy’ about them and in all honesty, they should be termed ” DISEASE - controlled plans” since all of them primarily involve pharmaceutical lobbying and are heavily influenced by them along with the insurance companies, medical institutions, junk food/alcohol pimps and conglomerates. 
Drs Dean Ornish and Andrew Weil are proactively working on alternative national plans based on holistic emphasis which is an absolute must unless
we want to continue down the path to bankruptcy,
hyper-inflation, and the total trashing of the Dollar which, I’m sure, the international power
brokers are planning for.
Campaign Finance Reform is the other front burner   and one concept is to limit all contributions only within the individual state boundary of the candidate.  Contribution caps will also have to be placed on individuals, corporations, institutions, and unions; Government subsidization will also probably be necessary.
From my perspective, THESE are the top issues that
we can all get behind and get the candidates behind.
If they’re not willing to support them, then we go
after those who will, be they Dem, Republican, Green,
Libertarian, Purple, or ????

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By ardee, September 21, 2009 at 2:40 am Link to this comment

No, truthdigger, everyone did not see it buecause in the case of the third building it neveer happened.  the plane that was probably intended to crash into the third building crashed in Pennsylvania.

All reports indicate that the plane to which you refer , which was traveling AWAY from NYC, was destined for the White House.It was about ten minutes flying time from DC in fact.

If one is serious about change, especially if one discounts violent revolution as the means to that change, then one is faced with a choice. That choice involves the method by which change is made palatable to the majority of the American people, a difficult enough task when considering the lack of real access to the media. the absence of people in the streets, and the overall ennui of the electorate.

Whether or not one believes individually in the credibility of the various and sundry conspiracy scenarios revolving around 9/11 one is faced with the reality that the great majority of our nation does not, that they are, in fact, turned off by such talk.

Sadly, the truth of the matter has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the political reality that you folks are losing the people by perpetuating this discussion.

Is this how you hope to accomplish change?

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By truedigger3, September 21, 2009 at 12:55 am Link to this comment

Folktruther,

First I am not a structural Engineer, so much of the reports and “research” I cann’t prove to disprove.

Building 7 caught fire that weakened its steel columns and trusses like the twin towers.
No one said or claimed that the heat of the fire melted the steel, only weakened it and that is enough to cause the buildings to pancake.
During the masssive fire bombing of Dresden in WW2, the famous huge cathderal caught fire, and after heroic struggle the fire was put down and everyone was elated that the cathdral was still standing as a symbol of hope. But after a while the cathedral came crashing down on itself. 
It turned out although the heat weakened the structure, the mortal blow came when the building was cooling down and not all parts of the structure cooled down at the same rate and that caused enormous stresses on it that finally tore it apart and caused it to crash.
You present reasonable but debatable points, but some of the other “truthers” present such rediculous and wild claims that either they are so deluded or they are implans to confuse and distract everyone from the real issues at hand whether it is the wars or Wall St. robbery of the public treasury in broad daylight etc etc.

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By drbhelthi, September 21, 2009 at 12:03 am Link to this comment

“There is no doubt that COINTELPRO type operations are ongoing today. Unfortunately, there also appears to be no actionable proof of this either.”

Such self-refuting statements are abundant. If there is “no doubt,” how can there be no actionable proof?

The words “proof” and “evidence” have become quasi nonsequiturs. The revelations of retired CIA agents and patriots such as Sibel Edmonds have provided volumes of evidence and proof. Just as the association of engineers has explained in detail that jet-engine-fuel cannot heat to the temperatures required to melt the steel support columns of the “Twin Towers.” The insurance beneficiary of building three candidly stated that the bldg. was “pulled.” One notes that it crumpled similarly to the twin towers, preparation for which was childs play compared to the preparations required to “melt down” the twin towers.

Being somewhat experienced in “evidence,” I would like to suggest that official reports of the US Gov. contain fabricated schism, but little evidence. Excepting parts of occasional reports done by “I.G. Agencies.” Even these reports sometimes skirt the facts.

When the former chief of Army Intelligence says he sees no evidence that an airliner crashed into the Pentagon, this is evidence. What he did not say was that the only part of an “aircraft” found in the pentagon was the small, special jet engine used in the Tomahawk missile that is fired from US naval vessels.                  dr.b_helthi

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By Ray Duray, September 20, 2009 at 10:30 pm Link to this comment

Hey Volma,

You present some powerful medicine. Perhaps too much for the public to get a handle on.

Shall we take our conversation private? I like the way your mind works. smile

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By Volma, September 20, 2009 at 9:02 pm Link to this comment

Thank you Robert Scheer for not confusing the issues, keeping it clear and focused…To me this all adds up to the clear view that we are have been and continue to live in a fascist country…We have believe the myths for too long, and have glossed over the truth, right before our very eyes basically to keep us from having to confront the situation…Wouldn’t want to rock the boat, is the US mass mind mantra….And the ones who are are directing their emotional anger, fear, mistrust, and intuition knowing that something ain’t right in Kansas anymore into trivial, mindless, pointless issues that have nothing much to do with the central issues…I found this in SOTT http://www.sott.net/articles/show/193530-Will-Obama-roll-over-Ex-CIA-chiefs-seek-halt-to-torture-probe…This applies to the 911 lies, you have no clue how sick I am of being called a nut case when the facts are in, plain to see, the nuts are the ones who refuse to believe the fact, science, witnesses, film, and so on..And now the Swine Flu, is there any rational voice in the media that’s really telling the truth about this?
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/183332-SOTT-Special-Report-The-Flu-Threat
One of the shrewdest ways for human predators to conquer their stronger victims is to steadily convince them with propaganda that they’re still free. N.A. Scott

Political Ponerology:

  A normal person has all the necessary tools and data to solve a problem or to logically reach a conclusion, but if the solution holds ideas contradictory to firmly held beliefs it is ‘blocked’ from conscious awareness. This type of denial can be extremely harmful, leading to intense feelings of tension and bitterness. For example, a wife may reject the conclusion that her husband is cheating on her, even when all the evidence logically points to this being the case (e.g., friends’ testimony, strange phone calls from an unknown woman, lipstick on the collar). When a supporter of the current war in Iraq is confronted with the fact that nearly a million Iraqis have been killed as a result of his support, this fact may be subconsciously blocked.

  ii) Selection of premises: Rather than affecting the acceptance of a disturbing conclusion, this process blocks out the piece or pieces of data that lead to the formation of a conclusion. When determining the morality of the occupation of Palestine, many reject that the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed in the Nabka of 1948. Accepting this datum would lead to a correct, albeit disturbing, conclusion regarding the morality of Israeli military occupation.

  iii) Substitution of premises: This is the most complex process and consists of substituting other data for those already rejected, making for a more comfortable conclusion. This process is often effected collectively, usually in verbal communication. In the case of Palestine, some groups have convinced themselves that there is no such thing as a Palestinian: Palestine was empty when the Jews found it, they say. This could also be called a “self-lie”, or a lie that we consciously tell ourselves, and then come to believe as true.

  Conversive thinking is highly contagious and acts a dangerous infection entry for truly pathological material. People who have lost their capacity for logical thought (and thus the ability to distinguish between truth and lies) are thus more prone to accepting the paralogic and paramorals of psychopaths and characteropaths. For example, observe the behavior of the “Christian Right” and their uncritical acceptance of war propaganda.

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By Ray Duray, September 20, 2009 at 8:42 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA,

Re: “Some people are easily fooled and apparently you are one.”

Please lay off the doobies. I’m your best ally here on Truthdig regarding 9/11 Truth. I’m blown away that you can so badly mangle what I’ve written.

I’m not fooled that some jackass named Obama is “hunting Bin Laden”. I wrote that I’ve seen Bin Laden’s obits in the Pakistani and Egyptian press and that he died of kidney failure in December, 2001.

***
You wrote: “and a part of the Pentagon was destroyed on a side that nobody used, no plane was found.”

Well, that’s not really accurate. The side of the Pentagon hit by the plane (or missile) that struck there was occupied by an office full of comptrollers who were working on attempting to properly account for the $2.3 Trillion in unaccounted expenses that Donald Rumsfeld testified about in Congress on 9/10/01. One of the most sinister scenarios to consider about 9/11 is that the Pentagon attacked its own comptrollers in order to “change the subject”, eliminate a crucial audit process and foment a vast herd reaction in Congress to authorize more funding for the Pentagon.

Look at the Pentagon as Chuck Spinney does as a “self-licking ice cream cone” or as I do as “the most metastatically malevolent cancer on the planet” and you can’t go wrong.

But don’t accuse me of being easily fooled. Unless you want a fight, bitch.

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By WeMadeAmistake, September 20, 2009 at 7:51 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I am more worried about having a marxist narcissist in the White House than I am some phony conspiracy theory.  Obama is the master of deception and his handler is George Soros.  Both marxist ideologists bent on destroying our constitution in ways too subtle for most of the sheep out there to see.

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By Folktruther, September 20, 2009 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment

truthdigger says:


“Everyone saw the planes hit the buildings and punching a gaping holes in their structures and turning several floors in each one of them to raging inferno with thousands of gallons of burning fuel and many experts testified how that led to the building pancaking down the way they did, so why the need for explosives and how two huge structurs like these could be wired secretly and the explosives hidden.”

No, truthdigger, everyone did not see it buecause in the case of the third building it neveer happened.  the plane that was probably intended to crash into the third building crashed in Pennsylvania.  But the third building pancaked just like the first two.  And the BBC stated a half hour or so before it did, that it already had,  How did it know that, truthdigger, when buildings had never pankcaked like that in their own footprint except under controlled demolition?

thousands of people keep secrets all the time, including scientists makeing the atomic bomb during WW 2, and inellignece agents in secret false flag operations.  They shoot you if you don’t, or think you are unreliable.  And any one operative has only a specialized task to perform.  who is he going to inform, the American mass media?

The argument of glider and Ardee, and Chomsky, is not that it isn’t true, but of the terrible political implications that occur if it is.  this is a different argument, and in the case of Glider, a wrong one.  the argument is essentially that things mught be so bad it is better not to know the tuth.  anarcissie’s argument as well.

This is exactly wrong.  If the US power structure has gotten to the point of being complicit in killing thousands of Americans, it is essential to know it to determine what can and must be done.  the cover story of the 19 Conspirators is absurd, and the 9/11 commission co-chairman have repudiated their explanation.

So what did happen?  I don’t know. It is concceivable, you know, that terrorists could have mined the buildings.  But looking at the 9/11 evidence, what is obvious is that it could not have happened without the knowledge of the White House previous to it happening.  that it was a mistake of some kind was extremely unlikely.

But you have to evaluate the evidence to determine that.  The usual argument is to avoid the evidence because the implications are so horrifying if the White House was complicit.  This is not a reasonable arguement on the evidence; it is merely fear talking.  the major buttress for the offical truth is that people don’t want to know the evidenced truth.  And no American movment is viable based on the fear of the reality-based truth.

all power structures deceive the people they rule in order to implement their policies.  And most people want to believe that authority is telling the truth.  Particularly when people are afraid and are infantalized, and want to believe authority figures will protect them, like their daddy did when they were childrren.  American psychologists now call this process ‘gaslighting’ after the film GASLIGHT.

the American people have been gaslighted by the 9/11-anthrax public relations homicide.

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By Ray Duray, September 20, 2009 at 7:35 pm Link to this comment

truedigger,

Re: “...one of these claims is that the WTC buildings were wired with explosives…”

True, that has been speculated upon. But the essence of 9/11 research is to avoid speculation and theorization.

Merely stating facts is vastly more useful.

For example, it is a fact that DARPA has the capacity to create ingenious demolition devices that are radio controlled on frequencies that cannot be detected by the civilian population because they are transmitting and receiving on a frequency that that is classified.

See how easy this is? One doesn’t have to be a conspiracy theorist at all.

One can merely observe facts.

Here’s an example. For whatever plane or missile it was that struck the Pentagon to have failed to trigger the IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) radars on the Pentagon, the Standard Operating Procedure for the anti-air missiles on the Pentagon had to either fail or have been turned off on the morning of 9/11. Why has the Pentagon failed to inform the public that either their defenses failed or that agents disarmed the defensive weaponry on the building?

See, no speculation. Just questions. For which your government refuses to give you answers. Shouldn’t this be a red flag if you declare the you live (or desire to live) in a representative democracy?

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, September 20, 2009 at 7:23 pm Link to this comment

Ray Duray,

I do not buy the government’s subjective story. The only things objective are the facts that some planes/drones hit the WTC and disappeared, explosions were heard and the buildings came down free fall, Building 7 collapsed without explanation, jet fuel doesn’t burn hot enough to melt steel, there’s evidence of thermite use, and a part of the Pentagon was destroyed on a side that nobody used, no plane was found.

A big bomber plane hit the Empire State Building that was powered by high octane aircraft fuel, but the steel never melted and the building didn’t fall down. http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/News/News8-0112.html

If the government thought the WTC, the Pentagon and the PA plane crash were really crime scene they would have ALL been handled by the POLICE as crime scenes, the area cordoned off and evidence gathered to determine exactly what happened, it is apparent there was/is no interest in forensic evidence.  When a crime scene is not treated like a crime scene, there has to be an explanation other that subjective nothingness.

You completely failed to mention that when asked Bush himself answered on National television that he was NOT looking for Osama bin Laden, then here we are again looking for Osama bin Laden.  Some people are easily fooled and apparently you are one.

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By hopeychangey, September 20, 2009 at 6:49 pm Link to this comment

So now Himself is telegraphing an exit or drawdown in Afghanistan. The polls support this of course. I wonder what McCrystal thinks. It was not long ago that Himself characterized the deployment in Afghanistan as a war of necessity. Woe is the country that allows its elected to form policy on politics alone. At least Himself’s predescessor had the courage to act independent of the way the wind blows.
This is a shameless administration, ready to walk away from what is needed, in favor of what is expedient.
Is this leadership?
Do any of you really still personally respect this man?

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By glider, September 20, 2009 at 4:41 pm Link to this comment

Hi Ardee,

“the worst thing about such beliefs is that it will never attract the general support necessary to make the changes we so sorely need. Quite the opposite in fact in that it leads to the overall condemnation of those who seek progressive change”

Well put.  I think if Ray looks hard and honest in the mirror he may realize this is why he has had a difficult time getting along with other such purposeful minded groups trying to improve conditions in our society. 

Cheers Bro

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By ardee, September 20, 2009 at 4:18 pm Link to this comment

glider, September 20 at 6:55 pm

A rational and thoughtful precise on this subject, wasted though it may be. Those who subscribe to the conspiracy theory surrounding 9/11 are not wack jobs, I think them aware of the way their govt fails utterly to support them and, in fact, works against their own best interests.

It is a good thing to look with suspicion on a govt that causes such havoc, at home and around the world. In the end, though, I must think that the worst thing about such beliefs is that it will never attract the general support necessary to make the changes we so sorely need. Quite the opposite in fact in that it leads to the overall condemnation of those who seek progressive change.

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By glider, September 20, 2009 at 3:55 pm Link to this comment

911 “Truthers”

If you accept your premise that 911 was an inside job by an insane revolving door of deviant psychopathic political elites, that necessarily involves multiple levels of government agencies, collaborating on a subterfuge regardless of being impassioned political opponents, then you must also conclude you are foolish to engage that very system through the political process, which would then be clearly beyond your control, and you are fools to be posting on Truthdig which does not outwardly promote violent revolution and offers no solution to your imagined threat.  You better start buying ammo because if things start fall apart on that level the right wing militias will kick our lefty asses.

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By truedigger3, September 20, 2009 at 1:08 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther,

Of course there are false flag operations, and yes, the government lies and obfuscate the facts all the time.
Yes, there might have been a conspiracy behind Kennedy’s murder.
But that doesn’t mean that all claims of conspiracies are true and one of these claims is that the WTC buildings were wired with explosives and those explosives brought them down.
Everyone saw the planes hit the buildings and punching a gaping holes in their structures and turning several floors in each one of them to raging inferno with thousands of gallons of burning fuel and many experts testified how that led to the building pancaking down the way they did, so why the need for explosives and how two huge structurs like these could be wired secretly and the explosives hidden. How many people have to keep a massive secret like that.??
You see, we fell in the trap that Anarcissie warned against and have been diverted from discussing the important issues at hand or asking the good questions that should be asked!!

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, September 20, 2009 at 12:29 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther:
‘Anarcissie, a man who takes his life in his hands every day to bicycle across the 59th street bridge afraid to look at the evidence on 9/11-anthrax! ...’

I’m not scared, I’m bored.  The secret police have done some unimaginative trolling and I am not going to participate in the flap.  If you enjoy it, don’t let me spoil your fun.

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By Ray Duray, September 20, 2009 at 11:43 am Link to this comment

folktruther,

Re: “There are 9/11 groups all over the world and in the universities now, at least tens of millions of people and a learned literature”

And don’t forget to mention that the new Parliamentary majority in Japan features a vociferous and articulate 9/11 Truther. Who knows, maybe the Meiji will restore America? ;’)

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By Folktruther, September 20, 2009 at 10:45 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie, a man who takes his life in his hands every day to bicycle across the 59th street bridge afraid to look at the evidence on 9/11-anthrax!  and now you’ve influenced truthdigger who usually is not suseptable to the public relations truth.

There are 9/11 groups all over the world and in the universities now, at least tens of millions of people and a learned literature, much more so than in the Kennedy assassination.  Learned theory is catching up with practice in regard to false flag operations, and a world conseneus is developing.

Just as polls showed a few years ago athat 80%of the american people believed a conspiracy existed to murder Kennedy- Indeed an offical congressional agreed that there was probably a conspiracy and a shooter in the grasssy knoll- so the distrust of the offfical truth about 9/11 is growing and a majority of Americans want a new investigation.  Not that we will get it but the reality based truth eventually can erode the public relations truth of power.  Even of the most fearful.

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