Although this article is twelve months old, the message remains passionate and speckled with hope and opportunity. Yet, the debate rages! This reform narrowed and doomed if we do not combine efforts to make this a lasting and positive change to our ailing health system.

The key idea highlighted is to “make coverage affordable to those without it”, and the rationale is this affects the “fundamental principles of justice and the character of our country” It was an interesting point that the public option is not the only option. Politicians should be trusted only when they deliver, and when they don’t, what next?

Perhaps the government should just leave the provision of health care to the professionals, instead of playing tug-of-war with taxes, costs, bills and all sorts of legislation.

Firstly, I am not an American citizen, however I have had an active interest and therefore well versed with the national health system and the proposals put forward by the Obama administration. Mr. Obama’s team are attempting to bring some balance and affordability to the system, however, the concerns center around the blocks and possible undermining by those wealth opponents.

Regards,
Edward
Horse Insurance

I wish the Obama administration all the luck in being the last President to address this issue. I am concerned that there is a swell of Americans who do not support the reform. If this is the situation I hold grave fears for the health system to survive any further disruption.

The waiver got me a little confused. Insurance companies are the ones that will benefit from this. Helping people is just an excuse for them to make more money.
business insurance

ChaoticGood,

That was fun!  The only problem was that you had Michelle Bachman finish a complete sentence.

There is hope for reform but no hope for the cost-effective reform that we need in the long-run. The industry fat-cats will keep their obscene pay and obscene profits built on the suffering of the people. We will get a reform bill and in less than 4 years we will need to raise our taxes so that the people can support the private health industry which is composed of leeches we can’t manage to rid ourselves of. It looks as though we will get the trigger for the public option which is a sham. In other words we will probably get coverage for all Americans that will break our bank, once again providing welfare to drug companies and private health insurance companies.

Re:the waiver, September 12 at 7:33 pm #

I read your post and I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry then I was filled with anxieties that some nutcases like you are walking among us.
Do you really believe that nonsense you are writing?
It is obviously glaringly clear that we are having a government by the corporations for the corporations and against the interests of the common folks and then you write such nonsense??!!
Was the government taking profits from banks when it gave them hundreds of billions of dollars after their abject failure and let them keep their obscene bounuses??!!

Hot off the press…

WASHINGTON—After months of committee meetings and hundreds of hours of heated debate, the United States Congress remained deadlocked this week over the best possible way to deny Americans health care.

“Both parties understand that the current system is broken,” House Speaker Nancy Pelosi told reporters Monday. “But what we can’t seem to agree upon is how to best keep it broken, while still ensuring that no elected official takes any political risk whatsoever. It’s a very complicated issue.”

“Ultimately, though, it’s our responsibility as lawmakers to put these differences aside and focus on refusing Americans the health care they deserve,” Pelosi added.

The legislative stalemate largely stems from competing ideologies deeply rooted along party lines. Democrats want to create a government-run system for not providing health care, while Republicans say coverage is best denied by allowing private insurers to make it unaffordable for as many citizens as possible.

“We have over 40 million people without insurance in this country today, and that is unacceptable,” Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT) said. “If we would just quit squabbling so much, we could get that number up to 50 or even 100 million. Why, there’s no reason we can’t work together to deny health care to everyone but the richest 1 percent of the population.”

“That’s what America is all about,” he added.

House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH) said on Meet The Press that Republicans would never agree to a plan that doesn’t allow citizens the choice to be denied medical care in the private sector.

“Americans don’t need some government official telling them they don’t have the proper coverage to receive treatment,” Boehner said. “What they need is massive insurance companies to become even more rich and powerful by withholding from average citizens the care they so desperately require. We’re talking about people’s health and the obscene profits associated with that, after all.”

Though there remain irreconcilable points, both parties have reached some common ground in recent weeks. Senate leaders Harry Reid (D-NV) and Mitch McConnell (R-KY) point to Congress’ failure to pass legislation before a July 31 deadline as proof of just how serious lawmakers are about stringing along the American people and never actually reforming the health care industry in any meaningful way.

“People should know that every day we are working without their best interests in mind,” Reid said. “But the goal here is not to push through some watered-down bill that only denies health care to a few Americans here and a few Americans there. The goal is to recognize that all Americans have a God-given right to proper medical attention and then make sure there’s no chance in hell that ever happens.”

“No matter what we come up with,” Reid continued, “rest assured that millions of citizens will remain dangerously uninsured, and the inflated health care industry will continue to bankrupt the country for decades.”

Other lawmakers stressed that, while there has been some progress, the window of cooperation was closing.

“When you get into the nuts and bolts of how best not to provide people with care essential to their survival, there are many things to take into consideration,” Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) said. “I believe we can create a plan for Americans that allows them to not be able to go to the hospital, not get the treatment they need, and ultimately wither away and die. But we’ve got to act fast.”

So says:
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/congress_deadlocked_over_how_to

Err waiver, was it your common sense you have waived?

You post a list of absurdities about the health care reform efforts, amidst which you admit that no legislation has yet been written to confirm or deny your fictions.

Strange fellow come among us.

We (the American people) think our Govt is interested in lowering medical cost—reduce premiums—making sure everyone in America has health insurance!

Obama in return wants our medical information under his domain in the White House!

Obama in return wants the insurance companies (who have made a profit)—return monies from profits back into the Govt. This way—more money in the pocket of the Govt—more power over every American—

Obama hasn’t *yet* ask for the profit of the oil companies to be returned back into the Govt.

So Obama doesn’t want any corporation to make a profit—but set their salaries—extra monies go back into the Govt—so the wealth can be spread to countries who are less fortunate than America.

CEO’s Set salaries—profits can not be kept within the company.  But Govt is the one entitled to the monies.

Under the Health Care Reform—no one knows what the bill contains because it hasn’t even been written!

What they say on TV—may not be what we actually thought we would receive.

Reproduction monies (abortions) will be spread around the world-paying for abortions here and abroad!

The total population in America in the year 2008—303,824,640.  Obama said: “there are 50 million people without any insurance—So basically 17% of the population are the ones who need insurance. 

Obama has gotten stimulus packages passed—but a lot of the money went out the door in BIG BONUES!

Obama “CASH for CLUNKERS” dealers haven’t received money owed them by the Govt. Yet around 700 million dollar of the Stimulus hasn’t been distributed!

The reason for the delay in getting monies to the auto dealers the Govt wasn’t ready for ALL THAT PAPER WORK!

So if you want our health care providers to be in the same situation—or if you do/don’t want the Govt to know all about your DNA then it is your choice!

Right now—I am not convinced if a portion of the basic health care is passed with everything American people want—jut in a few months to slip other legislation—and then have the Govt to raise the private insurance companies out of the market—just to have Govt controlled health care!

So getting the health care reform passed for approximately 17% of the population—

Take control of the profits being made by private insurance—so all the wealth (or profits) the Govt will own!

Does anyone really want more Govt to control us in our finances—in our health care treatment—and in a couple of years—set your salary because everyone has to have a salary to be determined under one of Obama’s czars—

The only WAKE UP CALL CONGRESS will have is when the Czars have more power than them!  If you think otherwise, Obama didn’t let Congress approve the (30) Czars who have complete access to Obama 24/7. 

If Congress thinks they are above being over looked, Ms. Pelosi is denying reality!

Obama was right about one thing, IMO. There are good arguments to made on both extremes; a Single-Payer system, and ending the employer based system for a true free market (don’t forget, the only thing big corporations hate more than taxes is free market competition). I would actually be willing to support either one. I think both can work. But we’ll never know because our government is based on compromise. 99 times out of 100, that’s a good thing (compromise). But in this case, it will only perpetuate a spiraling decline in the way healthcare is administered in this country, and continue the accelerated cost increases we’ve been seeing for the past 30 years, or so.

O’Terry wrote:
“STAND UP AMERICA BEFORE WALL STREET, BIG BUSINESS AND THE HEALTH INDUSTRY WITH THE HELP OF THEIR REPUBLICAN CRONIES KEEP 50,000,000 WORKING AMERICANS FROM GETTING HEALTH CARE!!!!”
_________________________________________________

Obama and the DEMOCRATS in the Congress are as guilty.
Both the Democrats and the Republicans in the Congress are bought and paid for and are equally beholden to Wall St., big business and the health care industry.

ardee, September 11 at 5:42 pm #
“What the hell is wrong with you people to be stampeded
so easily?”

“We are spending trillions to slaughter Muslims yet
balk at paying for healthy children…..are we insane?”

Rhetorical questions, yes? Keep up the good work.

WHY DO CERTAIN SENATOR’S OPPOSE PRESIDENT OBAMA’S PUBLIC HEALTH INSURANCE PLAN?
DO THEY THINK IT REALLY IS BAD FOR AMERICA - OR IS IT BECAUSE OF THE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS THEY HAVE ACCEPTED FROM THE HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY!!!
WHAT DO YOU THINK???

These are the bribes that have been paid by the health care industry to these Senators. I guess their money is more productive than the will of the American voters.
Senator Wyden - $1.2 million
Senator Nelson - $1 million
Senator Landrieu - $1.3 million
Senator Specter - $4 million
Senator Feinstein - $1.4 million
Senator Baucus - $3 million

STAND UP AMERICA BEFORE WALL STREET, BIG BUSINESS AND THE HEALTH INDUSTRY WITH THE HELP OF THEIR REPUBLICAN CRONIES KEEP 50,000,000 WORKING AMERICANS FROM GETTING HEALTH CARE!!!!

THE FACTS ARE THE REALLY POOR AND WEALTHY BOTH HAVE HEALTH CARE, BUT THE WORKING POOR CANNOT AFFORD THE 1200 TO 2400 A MONTH INSURANCE COMPANIES CHARGE FAMILES!!!
For any business, a dollar spent is expected to bring in more than a dollar for profits. Where will these health care companies make their profits? US.
Our senators and house reps are supposed to represent our interest. Unfortunately, many of them are closer to these lobbyists than to US. Perhaps we need to consider the following measures:
1. Set term limits of 12 years for the Congress.
2. Set time limits of 7 years between holding an elected office and joining a lobbying firm.
3. Lobbyists are not allowed to interact with any elected officials or aids directly. They can post any ideas online, but they cannot call or talk with our reps or senators.

How wonderful. You have health insurance corporations, Big Pharma, Big Hospital corporations and medical device manufacturers spending millions on lobbying so they can keep the same system running.
The same system that forces American patients toward bankruptcy.
The same system that has insurance and hospital executives receiving eight-figure incomes.
The same system that denies medical coverage to critical ill patients.
The same system that denies insurance to people with pre-existing medical conditions.
The same system that is crippling our nation’s economic future.
we have got to be the most gullible people on the face of the earth if you and i are going to see a universal health in this country.reason#1 the people who are in charge of medicare have no clue to the corruption in the medicare system,every politician in dc is taking money from the medical lobbyist,and the people who hurt us the most is the supreme who made it LEGAL to bribe our politicians,until this corrupt law is repealed we are never going to have an honest government.writ and call your representitives because they get awful nervous when you call and write to them.

What else is new! People with money get wonderful health care in this country, the BEST.

WHY DO CERTAIN SENATOR’S OPPOSE PRESIDENT OBAMA’S PUBLIC HEALTH INSURANCE PLAN?
DO THEY THINK IT REALLY IS BAD FOR AMERICA - OR IS IT BECAUSE OF THE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS THEY HAVE ACCEPTED FROM THE HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY!!!
WHAT DO YOU THINK???

These are the bribes that have been paid by the health care industry to these Senators. I guess their money is more productive than the will of the American voters.
Senator Wyden - $1.2 million
Senator Nelson - $1 million
Senator Landrieu - $1.3 million
Senator Specter - $4 million
Senator Feinstein - $1.4 million
Senator Baucus - $3 million

STAND UP AMERICA BEFORE WALL STREET, BIG BUSINESS AND THE HEALTH INDUSTRY WITH THE HELP OF THEIR REPUBLICAN CRONIES KEEP 50,000,000 WORKING AMERICANS FROM GETTING HEALTH CARE!!!!

THE FACTS ARE THE REALLY POOR AND WEALTHY BOTH HAVE HEALTH CARE, BUT THE WORKING POOR CANNOT AFFORD THE 1200 TO 2400 A MONTH INSURANCE COMPANIES CHARGE FAMILES!!!

JohnMcD, September 11 at 6:04 pm #

Fine words indeed, and we thus agree. I think the GOP doesnt deserve the “insane” judgment however, when they simply put ambition and lust for a return to power before their obligations and responsibilities to the truth and to this nation they pretend to serve.

I would also insist that any critique of this attempt to reform health care must include a scathing commentary on the Democrats as well, in fairness they also forfeit any respect.

I would rather support a single payer system than a new corporate scheme to generate record profits. Ideally, I like the multi-payer systems in France & Germany, where basic necessities are publicly funded and private insurance is also available for those who don’t mind putting more money in. Based on a bit of comparisons in cost and return, I think those nations get a better result than single payer systems (who still get a better result than us.)  You’re right about the economic implications, too:  A healthy population is a more productive population.  When people get sick and drop out of the economy, its a loss to society even if we ignore them and let them die in a gutter.  At least if you patch them up a bit, they’ve got a chance of becoming a productive member of society once again.

Since this legislative process began, we’ve seen the public option taken out and the subsidies for low-income workers scaled back dramatically.  Each new “compromise” with the insane Republicans takes us further from reform and closer to the next corporate handout.  Instead of paying for the expansion of coverage with progressive taxes, we’re now talking about putting the burden directly on the workers and small businesses who couldn’t afford it in the first place - the very ones most at risk that we’re supposedly trying to help! 

They’re ignoring the effect of lawsuits and malpractice insurance. They’re ignoring the effect of these huge student loans doctors are taking out. They’re ignoring the massive amount spent on administration. They’re just focusing on delivering new customers to the failed insurance businesses!

If the government is going to take a fine to enforce mandatory coverage, then they better also provide some kind of health coverage for that money.  This means a public option and it means significant assistance to those in the lower half to middle of income.  It might be politically difficult to tax progressively, but its one of the basic tenants economists believe in - from Adam Smith to Krugman and a majority in-between.

JohnMcD, September 11 at 1:18 pm #

I repost:

I would love to see every single person in America covered by some form of health care, dental and vision also. We would be a better nation for it. Further, for those who believe in capitalism, more members mean less cost per member.

+Further, I would favor single payer health care and believe that the govt could afford to insure every single American, and probably every single visitor to this nation as well, with a more rational look at the defense budget alone.

Are you, I wonder, against the term ‘mandatory’ or against the concept of fair and affordable health care for all? When visiting a nation like Switzerland one finds great health care available to citizen and non citizen alike, are they better than we?

Our current system of for profit health care is an abomination if you are in need of care. If you are young and healthy we have a great system, with the proviso that you dont quit your job of course.

We are spending trillions to slaughter Muslims yet balk at paying for healthy children…..are we insane?

ardee:

If mandating private enrollment is the solution to healthcare, we could just fix the foreclosure crisis by writing a law to require every citizen to pay his/her mortgage on time. 

How would this make anything “independent of employment?”  Its not like sick people who lose their jobs will still be able to pay the required premiums, they’ll just pay a fine for no coverage in return or be forced into IRS court!

Outraged: “But Pres. Obama and his admin. saved Everyone’s ass.  Yeah, they did.”

e j dionne had a post a while back saying this exact same thing.  only he was more honest about it and gave credit to bush and paulson’s tarp as kicking off this “saving of the economy” process which has been followed by the barackstar administration.  glider’s point about the wastefulness of this fix is right on.  dean baker has pointed out that at the time, last fall, the Fed had the power to inject liquidity into the economy by buying short term commercial paper from credit-worthy financial concerns instead of throwing $ at the largely insolvent big banks (most financial bloggers are in agreement… if mark to market rules are enforced, instead of mark to “model” rules, the large banks are insolvent)  barackstar has continued this approach.  sure, it’s a short-term fix, but it’s just kicking the can down the road and will in all likelihood lead to dollar devaluation and/or inflation.

outraged..u r someone who has posted links to richard cook’s ideas about monetary reform.  u seemed to have a favorable attitude about his views.  how u square this with obama’s handling of needed monetary reform is beyond me.

Outraged
“Aside from hot air, glider.  What qualification do you have to refute Mr. Krugman?”

I told you, if you can read, that I agree that Obama’s group put in an effective fix.  I also told you it was a terrible way to do the fix.  Read some more of Krugman.  He agrees with my position (that the fix was horrible) and that would be evident if you had been following his commentary during the crisis and didn’t just cherry pick one of his recent sentences.  So your position about this fix being great job is refuted by Krugman himself, who should of been the guy consulted by Obama, rather than his Bankster cabinet elite suck ups.

Let me put it this way.  Imagine your house needed a paint job, and I went in and tore it down and rebuilt the house 3 separate times and padded the pockets of a few companies and then charged you $3,000,000 for this fixing of your paint job.  You might be a little pissed off at what I did.  Get it?

Well, here’s a must read, IMO. MATT TAIBBI in Rolling
Stone has an extensive report on our pathetic attempts
at health care;

Here’s a link;

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/29988909/sic
k_and_wrong

I am unhappy with the Republican party, but I think there are many inaccurate innuendos in the above post. I also hate the Democratic party.

Dermitage

ardee,

Forcing people to buy health insurance will not sovle the current problems but will perpetute it, since there will be not any price controls or bargaining entities.
For every dollar spent on health care about one third of it is taken by the insurance comapanies and associated paper work by the doctors and hospitals. That is indefensible and that system should be abolished and replaced by a single payer system.

Inherent The wind wrote:
“If more than two of you ACTUALLY listened to Obama I’d be shocked.  Instead, like the Rethuglicans, you all project and fantasize on what you THINK he said and what you claim it all means.”
_____________________________________________________

Here we go again with ITW and his blind partisanship.
Contrary to your assumption, most people who posted in this thread ACTUALLY listened to the speech and were deeply angered and frustrated with Obama, and rightly so.
The issue here is not who will look better, the Democrats or the so called “rethuglicans”. Obama as expected, gave the health care industry what it wanted and asked for and aligned himself almost identically with your “rethuglicans”.
There will be no single payer, no public option and everyone will be forced to buy insurance or the government will help him buying it. The same with drugs.
All of that translates to billions of profits for the insurance/pharma/medical complex out of the blood and sweat and tears of the common people and the old system will continue with its problems and runaway cost increases.
Are you still defending that.
The hell with the Republican and Democratic parties.
They don’t represent the people but represent the moneyed/corporate class.
Who care anymore which one of these two critens look better.??!!

truedigger3, September 11 at 6:29 am

Thanks for the clarification, and, despite my increasing testiness with the liars and tools of fascism that increasingly infest this forum, I know you to be certainly closer to my own political position.

I apologize for my rough treatment of what I perceived to be a distortion of my words, my fault entirely. It has been a rough few weeks here. Recently one of the slimers here posted a favorable link to an article entitled, “Jew Jersey”, and not a single peep of outrage was heard.

Even in this thread we see folks upset by a possibility ( no law passed yet) that health insurance might be mandatory. I believe this is an egregious denial of the responsibilities of citizenship, as well as common sense considering that such mandatory insurance will lead to dramatically lowered pricing structures, universal coverage independent of ones employment, and an end to the practice of allowing folks to die for the bottom line.

I understand the unpopularity of this position and accept any criticism that speaks to the issues and not the personalities of the debater. But I lay it on the line as I feel truth trumps every other consideration.

Again TD3, I hope this misunderstanding can pass away as we are both generally close on issues.

ardee wrote:
“that would seemingly rein in your enthusiastic bombast about the fiction of my position.

I am sorry if you found my words misleading, but I do the best I can, do you ?
_____________________________________________________

ardee,
There was no enthusiastic bombast about your position from me but puzzlement because that is not ardee I know”
But here is what you wrote:
“Are we a nation or are we a collection of selfish individuals? From most of the posts I read here I would vote for the latter and despair for the former.”

Sorry for the misunderstanding and from my side I am also trying to do the best I can but occasionally I stumble.

Re: glider

“Aug. 9 (Bloomberg)—The U.S. economy is stabilizing and may have bottomed out, as the government’s stimulus plan probably saved a million jobs, Nobel Prize winner Paul Krugman said today.

“It’s quite possible, though not certain, that retrospectively, we’ll say that the recession ended in July or August, maybe September,” Krugman, 56, said. “My guess is that we’ve bottomed out now, that August was probably the trough month.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aMZ5qIkGppqA

Your comment: “Sure if Obama just sat on his ass there may have been a Depression II.”

To this, again….I ENAMOR YOU… “if “anyone” does refute this, can you enlighten me as to the concrete reality that had these measures NOT been taken what this would have bestowed upon the “regular joe/jane” citizen? (have you read any stories of the people of the depression and actually engaged that….. very realistically, this not only could but would have been YOU!)”

Aside from hot air, glider.  What qualification do you have to refute Mr. Krugman?  And please, before you emit more HOT AIR, explain what the DEPRESSION really was and could again have been to the average joe/jane.

Re: By C.Curtis.Dillon, September 10 at 7:09 am #

Your comment/s: (for which I’ll italicize)  “I think it is the Swiss who have private insurance companies but they cannot make any profit on the basic policies.”

Really… what a shame.

“They can offer supplemental policies that allow for private rooms and other extras.  This was done by referendum in a country which has strong insurance companies and big pharma.  The insurance companies actually compete for customers because there are incentives for management based on the numbers.  They have some issues but the basic system works very well for them.  It is not a single payer system and I think they have subsidies for those who can’t pay.  It seems to me this is a good compromise between a government run program and what we have now.”

It seems that way to you… does it now.  Okay.

“Of course, we (we…who?) need a uniquely “American” solution (the not invented here syndrome) that enriches corporations while destroying everyone else.  What a joke this country has become in the world.  Watching the stupidity that passes for government must be a favorite pastime for many.”,?

Can you explain the “invented here syndrome”, I’m unfamiliar with your conjecture and am in need of additional “enlightenment”.  This “stupidity that passes for government” that YOU CLAIM…. is this also a favorite passtime of Eastern Europeans….?  I was under the impression that AMERICAN GOVERNMENT (of course, that would be when it is UNCORRUPTED BY CORPORATE POWER) was for the most more beneficial than EASTERN EUROPE… am I confused?

“I know we have lost almost all credibility here in Eastern Europe.”

This too…. confuses me…?  You say “I know we have lost”.... “we” WHO…. who is “we” here in “Eastern Europe”.  Wait a minute, how do “we” lose credibility in “Eastern Europe”...?  Are you saying that America regarding healthcare is a central focus of “Eastern European Citizens”?  I’m flummoxed….

Btw, what do you think of public/private “entities”?

Outraged
“Is anyone refuting this?  Additionally, if “anyone” does refute this, can you enlighten me as to the concrete reality that had these measures NOT been taken what this would have bestowed upon the “regular joe/jane” citizen?”

Yeah, I’ll refute this B.S..  Are you kidding us?  First off your asking the wrong question.  Sure if Obama just sat on his ass there may have been a Depression II.  The problem is that Obamas fix was a horrendous caving into the financial assholes who got us into that mess, and that it could have been done more effectively is the understatement of the century.  There was no accountability.  And we still have no protective regulations and will likely get absolutely nothing to fix the unregulated $700 trillion derivatives market that is a ticking time bomb!  Big whoop, he ameliorated the immediate problem by throwing trillions of taxpayer $ and fed printed $ at these scumbags.  He had a precious once in a lifetime opportunity to reform the financial system and squandered it away with the likes of Geitner and Summers.

In hindsight, which is always 20/20…. I wonder how many of YOU, like me were not the needed voice when Sen. Kennedy advanced this reform, when he worked through decades to make this voice heard.  Where were you?  Where are you now?

Let me remind you, Sen. Kennedy directed this letter, to our current President.  You can either ignore the fact that SOMEONE WHO WORKED DECADES to achieve an end, would not be so foolish as to engage a President in which he had no trust…... or you can realize, that maybe…. just maybe, this President along with many others, the late Sen. Kennedy had validy to lend credence to.

A couple of things.

Pres. Obama:  “When I spoke here last winter, this nation was facing the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression.  We were losing an average of 700,000 jobs per month.  Credit was frozen.  And our financial system was on the verge of collapse.

.....But thanks to the bold and decisive action we’ve taken since January, I can stand here with confidence and say that we have pulled this economy back from the brink.”

Is anyone refuting this?  Additionally, if “anyone” does refute this, can you enlighten me as to the concrete reality that had these measures NOT been taken what this would have bestowed upon the “regular joe/jane” citizen? (have you read any stories of the people of the depression and actually engaged that….. very realistically, this not only could but would have been YOU!)

But Pres. Obama and his admin. saved EVERYONE’S ass.  Yeah… they did.  This has for the most been “swept under the carpet”, imo.  But because they did, the WHINERS are out in full force.  This was THE FIRST THING.  Healthcare was and is second.  It has gone unnoticed that had they not interceded…., there would be no discussion here, there would be no opinions, there would be no choice, but in the real world, there would be chaos.

To make a point or debate an issue is good, in fact it’s great.  What better way to get a realistic grasp of the totality of ANY issue.

But this “Obama hating” is uncalled for, and suspect.  This president has put himself in the line of fire, and continues to.  From Alternet:

“In a disturbing twist, it was discovered that Chris Broughton, the man who brought an AR-15 assault rifle to the Phoenix rally where Obama spoke, had attended Anderson’s sermon. In a later interview, Broughton said he concurred with his pastor’s wish to see Obama “die and go to hell.” As many as 12 men were seen walking around the Phoenix Convention Center with guns on that day.

Obama faces 30 death threats a day, a 400 percent increase over those against George W. Bush when he was president, according to Ronald Kessler, a veteran investigative journalist and conservative and author of the new book, In the President’s Secret Service: Behind the Scenes with Agents in the Line of Fire and the Presidents They Protect.
http://www.alternet.org/rights/142510/action_editorial:_why_the_secret_service_and_
fbi_must_investigate_threats_against_obama_and_beef_up_security_to_protect_him/

Wake up and smell the coffee, engage the FACTS on the ground, use your head.  THINK.

CJ,
Thanks for your very insightful post.  I am waffling on whether this bill is better than nothing.  If the progressive side of the Democratic Party could unite against it and use it to start a positive movement within the party I could see killing the bill as have positive potential.  But it is just hard to know which way events will run.

NC-Tom, September 10 at 11:35 pm #

“If this “Reform” ends up forcing
people to buy health insurance from private insurance
companies this will
probably and rightfully sweep the democrats from
their majority.”

====================================================

This concerns me greatly as well; if Obama blows it,
the only viable option is the Elephant in the room
and that is no option at all. The behavior in the
present political climate is just plain ugly.
Mandatory insurance is not an option. One is left
with the appearance that the president is a bought
man; certainly not a true leader. As one of the
unwashed masses; I guess we’ll see the answer pretty
soon.

Dear Inherit The Wind,
You said “If more than two of you ACTUALLY listened to Obama I’d be shocked. 
Instead, like the Rethuglicans, you all project and fantasize on what you THINK
he said and what you claim it all means.”

I did listen to his speech and I even went out to a site to get exact quotes from
it.  Here is the first one.

“And that’s why under my plan, individuals will be required to carry basic
health insurance—just as most states require you to carry auto insurance.”

Now I know I am just fantasizing here but I think this means we may HAVE to
purchase health insurance.

Next

“the public option is only a means to that end—and we should remain open to
other ideas that accomplish our ultimate goal.” 

Now I know I am projecting that means having a public option is not carved in
stone and could be replaced by some yet unknown idea that will accomplish its
goal of keeping costs in line.

So again this is just pie in the sky stuff here.  But it seems that there is a very
real chance that the government will be forcing every adult in this country not
already under a government plan to purchase health insurance from a private
company.

As someone already said in this discussion, I don’t HAVE to drive a car so I
don’t HAVE to purchase car insurance.  But as long as I am alive, up to 65, I
may have to purchase insurance from a PRIVATE company?  Man what a racket.
All that lobbying money was well spent!  Hey why didn’t they mandate that
everybody had to buy a Chevy or a Dodge so we could bail out the auto
industry.

This speech is so pro insurance that insurance company stocks went up after
he gave it!  Or maybe I just fantasied reading that on this site too.

On a personal level I am an early retiree and have quite a few years before I
qualify for Medicare.  Our monthly income is pretty low but we have a fair
amount of money in the bank.  I know we don’t know the details yet but could
this mean that I may be required by law to slowly turn over my life savings to
the private insurance company sons-of-bitches until it is all gone and only
then I’ll qualify for a subsidy?  Yea my life savings given to the insurance
companies so the CEO of Aetna can continue in the life style he has become
accustomed to.

Is this the frigging change we can believe in?  If this “Reform” ends up forcing
people to buy health insurance from private insurance companies this will
probably and rightfully sweep the democrats from their majority.  It will unite
the far right and the far left. IMHO it will do this because the far right is not
going to like the GOVERNMENT telling them they HAVE to buy insurance, and
people like me on the far left are not going to like the government telling them
they HAVE to buy health insurance from the CORRUPT PRIVATE INSURANCE
INDUSTRY. 

Hey maybe Obama will end up being the great uniter he wants to be after all!

While mainstream mush has turned to yet mushier, very well said, Mr. Boyarsky. Insurance lobby might have written sad speech. C-Span recently aired recorded phone conversations between LBJ and a few people, including of course Larry O’Brien, concerning pending Medicare in 1964-65. Actually, Johnson doesn’t say a lot while others report to him. Except at the end when he keeps telling all to get the “dead cat” off the porch before it starts to stink excessively. Meaning before people get a chance to make a mess of what turned out an excellent bill.

According to a commentator present during the airing, Senate rules have since been changed to make passage of bills more difficult—after Watergate. Anyway, I never heard Johnson say he was concerned for bipartisanship. I recall no inspirational speeches either.

I too picked up on Obama’s remarks delivered to progressives he imagines need reminding. It’s the President who’s in need of reminding—of what he’s said in the past; namely, of his own stated support for single-payer. Too “radical”? Huh? As opposed to the Civil Rights Act? Medicare and Medicaid? Social Security? The Federal Reserve? Say what, Mr. anything-but-progressive President?

Doug Henwood writes the following in Left Business Observer, issue #119 (primarily in the context of commenting on Obama’s performance re ongoing recession, but also re other matters):

“But it’s too easy to blame pandering to Republicans for stuff like [health care reform]. Taking on the insurance industry and creating fresh entitlements for a population the employing class wants to keep pliable by encouraging a pervasive sense of insecurity would be running against the grain of elite political consensus.”

Further down,

“Aside from the big structural questions, there’s also an interesting personal contrast between FDR and BHO. Roosevelt emerged from the aristocracy, and had the confidence to step on its well-shod toes. Obama is a pure, upwardly mobile product of the meritocracy, and feels little but admiration for the establishment that groomed him.”

Loathsome (from the standpoint of economic/human rights) meritocracy, let alone that mostly by way of aristocracy/plutocracy.

I think Henwood correct in his assessment by contrasting to FDR. But if true of Obama in contrast, not of Johnson, and not of JFK who like FDR was also born of aristocracy.

Clearly, the President loves to speak the great speech, which is particularly appealing to seriously overly idealistic liberals. Obama’s own blind ambition seems to amount to not much more than talking the inspirational talk a la JFK and then settling for a little tinkering here and there. And like JFK, he’s also a hawk.

Healthcare as currently provided for in the U.S. is a disaster on an enormous scale! But… as Henwood writes of the employing class, which must be finding it easier than ever before to keep us “pliable.” Not, as Henwood notes further on, that that class hasn’t worked at further reducing those of us rendered “pliable.” Beginning with offering up credit in place of wages and salaries. What’s more fearsome than steep debt?

I can’t agree with Boyarsky that Obama’s (sorta) plan is better than nothing. It’s not. For at least the simple reason that it might well forestall for yet more decades any serious reform. Alas, the President cannot bring himself to step on aristocratic toes, to suffer their wrath and hatred as his hero Lincoln did. Lincoln was despised by millions; so was FDR; so is G.W. Bush.

As for any “mandate,” blood from stone? For the President to speechify of “responsibility” in the context of systematic plundering of the “pliable” class is itself the height of irresponsibility. But the President is by now soaked in the ideology of the “grooming” class.

Inherit the Wind
“If more than two of you ACTUALLY listened to Obama I’d be shocked!”

Hmmm, that interesting, I’m listening, please tell me what I missed since your levels of perception exceeds everyone else.

Most of the posts here are like reading Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh, only from the so-called “Progressives”.  If more than two of you ACTUALLY listened to Obama I’d be shocked.  Instead, like the Rethuglicans, you all project and fantasize on what you THINK he said and what you claim it all means.

And, you are helping the Rethugs like Boehner bring about EXACTLY what he wants: Nothing.  No change so he can say “The democrats did nothing. Give it back to us and we’ll protect your freedom (chortle)”.  Like there’s been a Rethug to protect our freedom since Howard Baker left the Senate…..

truedigger3, September 10 at 7:22 pm #

ardee,

Most of the posters in this thread, I say more than 90%, support a single payer or at least a public option. Also most of the posters here oppose ObamaCare because it is in its essence is a givaway to the insurance and pharma companies and will do nothing to curb health care costs.
So, calling the posters in this thread, a collection of selfish individuals is unfair

Speaking of unfair, why do you assume that my words were directed at the progressive posters of TruthDig? Further, why do you also assume that I am a fan or supporter of Obama or his sellout to the Health Care Industry?

Here is a post of mine from this very thread:
ardee, September 10 at 6:19 am #
that would seemingly rein in your enthusiastic bombast about the fiction of my position.

I am sorry if you found my words misleading, but I do the best I can, do you?

I thank God that I and my family have good health insurance. However, I grow increasingly despondent over seeing our government steam roll its way over the mosty needy of our citizenry.

I had high hopes that the voices of tens of millions of americans would be heard in congress.

Shame on me for thinking that we still have a representative government.

ardee wrote:
“Are we a nation or are we a collection of selfish individuals? From most of the posts I read here I would vote for the latter and despair for the former.”
____________________________________________________

ardee,

Most of the posters in this thread, I say more than 90%, support a single payer or at least a public option. Also most of the posters here oppose ObamaCare because it is in its essence is a givaway to the insurance and pharma companies and will do nothing to curb health care costs.
So, calling the posters in this thread, a collection of selfish individuals is unfair.

Boyarsky: “Mandatory health insurance is fine”

Nope

This is a precedent that won’t stop with health insurance. Never before has the Federal Government required the purchase of *anything*. If I’m wrong I’d sure appreciate someone pointing it out.

And if anyone thinks this will stop at health insurance, if the Feds get their way, hasn’t been paying attention.

To dismiss this enormous power grab is unbelievable.

Mandatory health insurance, administered by the IRS, is NOT fine.

Is it any wonder why there is little to no discussion of this IRS enforcement (apparently one will be required to file proof of insurance with their 1040) anywhere to be found? I guess you can’t blame Obama for not bringing it up but surely someone else should.

Somehow, Mr. President, I don’t think this is going to work out as you envisioned (and not activating it until 2012, allows Insurance to commit atrocities, much like the credit card & bank companies).

This isn’t even Steven: insurance companies can’t drop you, can’t cap you, must take you and for these sacrifices you will give them millions of new customers.

The only price controls will be the specter of competition. 

Do you know how they’ll get around this?  The same way drug companies got around generics?  They’ll spin off and buy up.  They’ll require behaviors from certain groups threatening them with lost business if uncooperative.  They are already plotting and planning.

That public option that you mentioned last—as a puny last resort—will grow and grow.  But watch the discrimination against public option clients, just like Medicaid and even Medicare patients are rejected. 

This battle will go on and on and on, and the costs will come from just enforcing this crap.

Are we a nation or are we a collection of selfish individuals? From most of the posts I read here I would vote for the latter and despair for the former.

I would love to see every single person in America covered by some form of health care, dental and vision also. We would be a better nation for it. Further, for those who believe in capitalism, more members mean less cost per member.

Those who rail, somewhat mindlessly I fear, against the ‘devil of mandatory health care’, a proposal that is not yet near becoming law and probably will not, must also have need of such care, whether now or in the future. Do you folks not have children that need yearly visits and vaccinations etc?. Do you not struggle with rising health care costs as do most of us? Do you not feel empathy for the millions of folks losing their homes, many due to catastrophic illness not covered by rapacious insurers? Are you not aware that almost 60% of all bankruptcies are health care related? Do you not care for your fellow citizens?

What the hell is wrong with you people to be stampeded so easily?

I said something evil on Huffington Post. Probably just as well because most of the articles aren’t very good there anyway.

Hoping I can say incisive things here without being censored.  You know, I can think of a nigh to infinite number of interesting, valid, valuable, insightful, positively artful comments that would break every comment policy anybody ever established. 

But I guess I’m breaking the offtopic rule.  So, to cut to chase:

Does anybody actually know anything?  Can anybody give me an educated guess?  I got no health insurance.  I cannot afford it.  I gross about $18,000 a year as an adjunct professor.  After taxes and garnishing to pay off infinite student loans, I net about $13,000 per annum or less.  How much per month will I probably end up paying for insurance when they are done with this?  Because if it is more than about $100 per month, I’ll be breaking the law and driving, I mean, living, sans insurance, and they can just put me in the prison infirmary where I can get some free care. 

Interestingly, this isn’t just one of those issues I have an opinion on.  It’s one I actually need to know the answer to.

Thank you.

PS. Where’s Gore Vidal?

usausa2,

I agree it is Obamas war and the carnage is blood on his hands at this stage.  It is also what our Military Industrial Complex does.  They have a completely unjustifiable budget that costs the citizens of our country dearly.  Democrats and Republicans are both guilty of this obscenity.  Your response to me pointing out that the military budget and the war expense dwarfed your concerns about comparatively trivial expenses was to say that much of that money went to our “Brave Soldiers”.  Usually brave soldiers refers to soldiers fighting in combat not those stationed at home.  My apologies for making that assumption.  Make no mistake though that our military budget is far beyond anything necessary to defend the homeland.

glider

I never said I supported the wars.  You are ASSUMING because you have no facts.  The President can withdraw troops and end the war if he chooses, which is fine with me.  So its your President that is “killing our precious young Americans” not me.  And it is now Obama’s War, not mine.  Get your facts right before you Spew your clueless comments.

usausa2,

I am not happy with Obamacare either but for different reasons.  Why don’t you see if you can get the CBO to run figures on installing a Single Payer system.

usausa2

Those MBAs created the obscene financial crisis and engineered the unregulated $700 trillion derivatives market that now threatens us.  An MBA is hardly an endorsement for responsible policy capabilities!  People attracted to get an MBA are interested in one thing, making money, so it can lead to problems.

Your mentalility is killing our precious young Americans (even 18 year old boys), who you call Brave Soldiers when they are fighting your wars, and whom you call deadbeats when they return home shattered from committing the atrocities that these war produce.

glider

A large portion of the military budget goes to the Brave Soldiers that defend our great nation.  Obama is president, so he can reduce waste and fraud across the WHOLE Government.  However, he doesn’t because he does not KNOW how to.  Obama HAS NO Business Background.  He has no MBA nor Management knowledge, which is why he says Obamacare is budget neutral when the CBO estimates the additional Deficit cost over $1 TRILLION !

usausa2

You care not one wit about the deficit.  If you did you might worry about the real problem.  An estimated $786 billion military budget (which is all red ink), and the $900,000,000 billion and counting costs of our current needless wars (which are all red ink).  But no we have a problem with the “post office”.

You are obscene.

Several European nations have ‘healthcare for all’ plans that do not have a public option.  However, they regulate the hell out of the insurance companies down to profits, executive compensation, exclusions of coverage and pricing.  The corporate prostitutes we call our congress would begin putting in loopholes before the ink was dry on such a bill, and if Republicans returned to control all regulation would be immediately stripped out.

Without a public option there is no healthcare reform in the USA.

If Obama was serious about reducing the deficit, he would reduce the $60 Billion of waste and fraud in Medicare/Medicaid annually and reduce the $7 Billion the Post Office plans to LOSE this year.  He would add TORT Reform and allow insurance companies to compete across state lines.  FIX the Broken System First, before you create another Government Inefficient Bureacracy.  Obama solution to everything is to SPEND, SPEND, WASTE.  The Congressional Budget Office estimates the cost to be OVER $1 TRILLION dollars to Obamacare to pay for the Lazy, Clueless, and Deadbeats in this country.  Were is the Work Ethic and Individual Responsibility in this country.  The Hardworking TaxPayers will be paying for the HIV and Drug Addicts which the government will define as “Pre existing” conditions.  Is that what you want?

Ives,
That is a good point but I guess technically they are not forcing you to buy the insurance.  You can elect to pay the tax penalty instead.

NABNYC
“Obama will forbid the exclusion of pre-existing conditions?...insurance companies will charge high premiums ... unaffordable to anyone with a preexisting condition.”

I am not so sure.  I agree the term “won’t be able to deny” is slippery as you never hear the words “won’t be able to charge more”.  But I think they are changing the HICs business model to distributing risk more to the entire population and allowing increasing rates in more general ways (e.g. age, smoking, drinking, etc).  If so I actually think this part may be a great improvement over simply weeding out the sick.  But yes, the devil is in the details.

I think you are also missing the other point that not being able to deny coverage for pre-existing conditions is implicit in forcing everyone to buy private insurance.  Your never applying for insurance because your forced to buy it from birth.  So it is a one time expense for these companies in exchange for a mandate to buy their product by law.  Not a bad deal.

The problem is that Obama and the Dems are insisting on polishing a turd rather than go to the most efficient Single Payer system.  Most of the cost inefficiencies will remain in place.

An excellent point by Thomas Dooley

“These corporations now have the power collect taxes directly without the interference caused by democracy and our elected representatives with the only role for government is as the enforcer.”

Any legal minds afoot? Seems to me there should be some legal difficulty in requiring every citizen, simply by virtue of the fact that they are living and breathing, to purchase a certain commodity, whether that be telephone service, a pony, or health insurance. The government has the power to tax but this in essence (as T. Dooley noted) hands that power to private corporations. Any legal eagles see any trouble with this idea?

I don’t like this proposal at all. We should improve Medicare and cover everybody.

Here’s a question:

If a law is passed forcing me to purchase private insurance and I feel that it is un-constitutional
and refuse. Then what? Will they arrest me? Garnish my wages - which will be hard to do since I am
self employed… Or will Blackwater representatives visit me?

How will this be enforced?

Whatever happened to healthcare as a civil right? You know it isn’t really merely a purchase like buying a car. Mandating that we buy it and just upgrading the warranty a bit doesn’t really make it. It should be considered a moral issue because that’s what it is.

We wanted single payer or something very close to it. What do we get? A law that says we must purchase insurance company “products” albeit with an upgraded warranty.

If you wanted “change” I guess that is a change. A big change! We weren’t required by law to purchase products from these corporations before this.

THIS in a nutshell is what Obamas proposal from last night does (and its nothing to applaud)-

Those without insurance currently, or not provided it by an employer, who are allegedly the major focus of this proposal,
UNDER OBAMA’S now advocated plan, will be FORCED UNDER PENALTY OF LAW to purchase ‘‘discount’’ health insurance from one of the (EXTANT) Health Insurance Companies that have spent the last few decades ripping them off and dropping their coverage whenever they actually need the insurance.. 
Should you NOT buy a plan from one of these Health Insurance Companies, you will be fined by the IRS, which if you cannot pay the fine, INCREASES IT FINE PENALTIES every year, so your fine balance will continue to grow.

The above scheme, is WHY the health insurance companies, drug manufacturers, and other profiteers are now said to be ‘‘ON BOARD’’ Obamas plan- whatever they lose through policy-sharking ON COST, THEY WILL MAKE UP in VOLUME, as every citizen is now compelled through IRS enforcement action to become the customers of the most corrupt, despicable, and untrustworthy of all business ventures..

Obama/axlerod/emannuel have already cut deals with these corrupt concerns to ensure that the PAC ‘‘donations’‘/bribes keep flowing in- this is no reform, this is a scam.

Obama DID promise NO MADATES when he campaigned for president, now as a sitting president, that has been OFFICIALLY withdrawn.. call it whatever you want, but LIE seems to be a good fit. 

OBAMA WAS WILLING, LAST NIGHT, TO ABSOLUTELY DEMAND MANDATES AGAINST INDIVIDUAL PRIVATE CITIZENS, BUT HE WAS NOT WILLING TO DEMAND ANY ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT FOR A PUBLIC OPTION as a non-negotiable- he sold out, changed sides, defected, or chased the money- period.

Ensuring more customers for corrupt insurance companies who ARE THE SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM in the first place is not reform.  It is either capitulation, surrender, complicity, cooperation, or indifference. 

Pass oversight and insist that companies in the USA cannot find excuses to drop you when you have need of their services, but there can be NO MANDATE and their MUST BE A PUBLIC OPTION to allow a escape from the corrupt insurance companies for those who want it…

those two non-negotiables are the two things Obama imediately sold-out on- this is also a man who campaigned against NAFTA and then appointed NAFTA SUPPORTING / FREE TRADE trade representives when he was in office.  Obama is a guy who says one thing and then chases the money-interests

Obama and the Democrats refuse to pass healthcare reform. That’s the only honest headline. What Obama and the Democrats instead announced last night is that they will do nothing at all to help the public. They are compelling 40 million Americans to buy health insurance, sending hundreds of millions of dollars of more business to the same criminals who are robbing us blind, but for the rest of us: nothing.

The whole thing was just entertainment for the masses to defraud the public. What a show it was. All the Democratic women wore red to fool the public into thinking this was just as important as the State of the Union? Like a revival carnival tent, I kept waiting for someone to bring out the bearded lady or the two-headed snake.

Everytime Obama opened his mouth the Democrats cheered like it was VE Day all over again. I kept expecting them to have the cameras cut to Times Square where male Democratic employees would be grabbing women, bending them over backwards, and giving them a big kiss, with excited journalists and flashbulbs recording the moment for all time.

“Good Evening” (wild cheers). “How are you?” (standing ovation). Maybe Biden was standing behind Obama with signs, holding them up to the audience when the cameras weren’t looking, like they do in the daytime game shows. Which is pretty much what this was. The Democrats took millions of dollars from the health care industry in exchange for doing nothing to provide healthcare to the public. Instead of the TV Listings describing this as “Presidential Address to Congress,” they should have just called it “The Price Is Right.”

Obama announced that he will put price controls on “co-pays and out of pocket expenses,” but he’s not going to restrict the amount charged for premiums. The big money is the monthly premium. The co-pay is like forty bucks.

Obama claims that he will not allow the insurance companies to “charge extra” for mammograms or check-ups or colonoscopies, but he pretends that he’s unaware of the fact that most people have a deductible, so would end paying for all of it themselves.

Oh yeah. That whole “public option?”  Not really folks. Read the speech. Four years from now there will be a non-profit program set up to pay for healthcare for the uninsured who are too poor to be compelled to buy it for themselves. But only a maximum of 5% of the population can participate. I’m guessing skid row, jail, prison—that type of medical care, to people who have not one penny and no ability to pay.

For all the rest of us: nothing. No help, no public option, no Medicare for All, Nothing.

There was also a plan for a government-funded marketplace in which insurance companies can go to sell insurance to the public. Will we be paying for the insurance agent’s travel expenses, hotels, meals, as well? Hookers? Phone sex? Why would the taxpayers pay to create a sales office for insurance companies? Notice that Obama and the Democrats do not plan to restrict the amount that the insurance companies can charge us in premiums. He says they will “compete” with each other for our business? Theoretically they do that right now, and the effect has been that they all grossly overcharge the public because there are no controls on what they can charge.

The big pronouncement that Obama will forbid the exclusion of pre-existing conditions? Big deal. The insurance companies will charge such high premiums that insurance will be unaffordable to anyone with a preexisting condition. Just like it is today.

The pronouncement by Obama that nobody better try to stop him: that was aimed at the Democrats in the House, not the Republicans.

This is a complete sell-out of the public. The only true words spoken came from the Republican who called Obama a liar, because any claim that this represents health care “reform” is a lie.

http://NABNYC.blogspot.com

“To my progressive friends . . .

I’m NOT your friend!

Boy!! how many times during the campaign did we hear Obama say he will offer a public plan so all Americans would have access to the same insurance that is now enjoyed by the members of Congress and that the American people deserved no less?

That little Hitler moustache I found so offensive at the town halls may not be as inappropriate as I had thought.

Progressives should vigorously oppose any legislation that makes it mandatory to buy private insurance (as the insurance lobby is demanding), with no public option.  Letting the current system continue to collapse is better than forcing people to buy highly overpriced private insurance that they cannot afford.

Wall Street sure loved the speech, health company
stocks up this morning, according to Thom Hartmann.
Corporate ruled America perking along. So…corporation
1, people, as usual 0, or I guess maybe.00001.

This is a good article that exactly in line with what I was thinking after the speech.  In the end I am not sure this bill is better than nothing.  I agree it is “uniquely American”.  It is a powerful move to increased corporatocracy and certainly nothing to do with socialism.

If you strip away the Obama sugar coating you get.

1. Everyone will be forced to buy private health insurance.

The sugar coat version says “insurance companies won’t be able to deny coverage for a pre-existing condition”.  Denial of coverage is a redundant point when everyone is forced to buy insurance.  Insurance companies will have to make a one time sacrifice and take on some sick people initially.  After that they got you and future generations for life by federal law.

2. Private insurance companies will be sheltered from any competition by a so-called “Public Option”. Single payer will be buried forever.

If you have employer based private insurance you will be forced to keep it.  The public option at best is a crumb limited to 5% of the population (specifically poor people).  It is a deliberate deception to say such a program will keep insurance companies honest.  Watch for provisions that turn this into a dumping ground for individuals that are unprofitable for the insurance companies.

3. There will be some standardization of coverage that will reduce some of insurance companies worst abuses.

This part seems good.

4. This plan will be incredibly expensive for citizens not subsidized and will be very profitable for insurance companies.  It may not increase the federal deficit much but it will be coming out of the people’s pockets big time.

The only meaningful cost control is forcing young healthy people on the insurance roles as a way of subsidizing care for older people.  Talk of paying for a program by reducing waste and fraud is made by every politician and is always a lie.

Thomas Dooley hits the nail right on the head. Obamacare circumvents democracy by putting private corporations in charge of all of our lives. We don’t get to vote for the board of directors of Blue Shield, nor are they appointed by our elected representatives, but we will have to pay whatever they demand or be punished by the government. Have our driver’s licenses revoked, our wages garnished, etc.

Politicians, with their six figure incomes don’t understand what a hard time people are having just trying to survive right now. Millions of us, who don’t qualify for public asistance, are having a hard time just paying our bills. Lots of us don’t have medical insurance because we just can’t afford it. Now we’re being told that we are being “irresponsible.” We can’t handle another monthly bill. Anyone who actually believes that this will make the cost of insurance go down is crazy. Auto insurance did not go down when they made it mandatory, it went up.

These insurance companies have given us the most expensive and most complicated medical care in the world, while covering the least people. Now we’re expected to believe that ordering everyone to buy their defective product is a solution to the problem? This is not going to work, folks. When these insurance companies get everyone by the short hairs, backed by the power of the government, it’s going to be a nightmare.

When you see something like this coming from Democratic congres with a Democratic president, it makes your head spin. It’s a neocon dream, come true.

The corporations hold the ankles of the citizens upside down and shake out whatever money they have. Not enough? keep shaking, President Obama is assisting this operation. His chief of staff knows that there is nothing more urgent than keeping the pharmaceutical and insurance money away from the GOP campaign war chest. It is time to be honest about this lame compromise which does nothing to create a national health service: it is a betrayal of the interests of the citizens. But big corporate mind set, with all its money muscle, is quite adept at betraying the people. Pfizer continued to promote its deadly drug Bextra, long after they knew it was deadly. As the late William Gaddis once asked: “when does free enterprise become monopolised capitalism?”
People who live in the Obama dream world should face the fact that this totally corrupt system is what the President strangely wants to preserve.

Ok if the public option is off the table we can still make this work.

We need three things in the Bill.

1, All insurance companies must rate policies using the US population under 65 as a group.

2, The insurance industries antitrust exception must be repealed.

3, Insurance plans must be standardized so different policies can be compared accurately.

If these items are in the bill the insurance companies will straighten themselves out fast. We will also most likely see most insurance companies go back to nonprofit status, to better compete in a competitive marketplace.

I don’t know if any one paid attention to when president O said “details will be worked out later” As far as I know the devil is in the details. TV cable pundits were beside themselves to sell whatever Pres O was saying. Native Americans have a saying that “white man talks from both sides of his mouth”. President O is a master of that. Let see he conveniently drew a line in the sand that not a penny will be added to national debt because of health care so called reform while spending close to $10 billion per month in Iraq and Afghanistan. This quote is attributed to H. Kissinger “don’t look at what say, look at what I do” isn’t it what O is doing? I figure 69 millions Americans voted to elect a leader and if he is an excellent speaker that would be a bonus instead what we all got it seems to me is an excellent speaker but a lousy double taking leader. To my chagrin President O is incapable of leading.

We’ve all read the various sob stories. Here’s mine.

I personally have paid more for health insurance, when the kids were still under age and at home, that I
did for my mortgage.

Being a pretty healthy bunch we’ve paid out far more in premiums over the years than we’ve ever
received back in provided care. Yet our self employed premiums go up 20-30% each year!

I would gladly pay $200-300-400 a month more in TAXES if I didn’t have to write a $600 month check to
some corporation looking out for profit more than me.

The mandate that citizens must purchase health insurance policies from the same corporations that have created the health care mess in the first place is the center piece of Obama’s “plan.” Everything else is small potatoes. Everything else is window dressing and distraction for the elephant in the room. The insurances corporations know it. It represents an enormous transfer of wealth to them.

The insurance corporations are besides themselves with joy. They have acquired the power of taxation in all but name. A law that uses the power of the state to force you to pay money or else be punished is a tax. There is no other name for it. A tax is a tax.

These corporations now have the power collect taxes directly without the interference caused by democracy and our elected representatives with the only role for government is as the enforcer.

The power to tax. What a plum! What a reward! I guess because these corporations have done such a fine job giving us the wonderful efficient healthcare system we now enjoy they deserve this new power. We can all be assured they will be responsible with it. Why wouldn’t they be? They are deeply concerned with our well being. It says so right in their ads.

Obama may be smarter than we think by keeping the
Insurance Companies involved, because they might be
able to fix the food problem behind our national
obesity problem because they will have to PAY FOR THE
RESULTS.

Read Michael Pollan in today’s NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/10/opinion/10pollan.html
?ref=opinion

This so called “plan” is not better than nothing, it’s worse than nothing. Mandatory health insurance is not “okay,” it’s undemocratic and it’s robbery. Obama is not “smarter than the insurance companies,” he works for them. Money talks, and money talked last night. Obama is selling out the citizens of this country, and if we stand for it, we are doomed.

As I read the comments of Ohiolibgal, xypher, Big Wes, Ouroborus, Nancy Bordier, C. Curtis Dillon, Fat Freddy, ardee, Commune115, Nancy Bordier, so left i am right, trudigger3, etc… I realize that there is more perceptive thought here than you can find on national television on any given day, With McCoy Tyner’s Solo (piano) playing in the background, I say: keep it going folks.

I’m listening to Stephanie Miller and she is
celebrating like it’s 1999, I just don’t think that
even some liberal talkers get it.

I kept yelling BS at the screen myself. Public
Option? Who has a real option? And didn’t seem more
like Conrad’s lame coop idea? Then there is the
mandate to throw even more money at the insurance
companies who are nothing more than leeches - and who
more than anyone should be breathing a sigh of relief
this morning.

Then there is the Oh no, we won’t cover any
undocumented immigrants. They bandied that about with
glee. Many legal residents have kids spending time
with kids of illegals who without coverage can then
spread who knows what.

Obama can wow the masses with speeches for sure, but
the devil is in the details and what he said and what
he didn’t. And all of in in the back light of the
fact that he’s already sold us down the river on
drugs - and I would have thought that capitulation
for which we all will pay dearly would have brought a
whole lot more than what’s going to happen.

Obama IS lying - That repugnant redneck guy that screamed during his speech was right in saying it, he was simply ignorant as to what the lye was.

Obama said that American health insurance costs 1-1/2 times more than the average of other first world countries.  This is the lye!!!  I live in another country and my insurance runs me (adjusted to US dollars) $269/month.  I also know that the brits pay for health through their taxes and the highest tax rate for them is 40% - and that is all in.  I pay more than that every year to this crappy government.

Here is my prediction for the Insurance plan that is going to occur based on what I have heard in the last few months:

The new plan is - $14,400(avg for family of 4)/1.5(Obama’s untruthful fact) = $9600/yr, Coverage will be mandatory and for profit to the insurance industry.  Big pharma will continue to rape the Americans.  You will be fined if you do not enroll. You will continue to pay deductibles and copays.

$9600/12 = $800/month or 3 times what I pay for my insurance - Oh yeah, I don’t pay deductibles or copays. Oops, I almost forgot - drugs are 3 to eight times less than America!

I think it is a disgrace that we are letting them shove the majority of voters around and openly playing to corporations - maybe some day - we will wake up and castrate them.  Until then, I am going to continue living abroad.

Once again, Corporate America wins over the interests of the American People. The only change we see in Washington is that our president is now African American and not an white good ole’ boy. Yeah, Obama was actually elected but, why pick nits?

God Bless the CSA, Corporate States of America, where We the People are just pawns to be used and killed in illegal wars and now in the farce of healthcare. Open you wallets, everyone.

This new proposal is nothing but a legalized raping of the American public by the health insurance industry.  I am lucky to have access to good insurance—even though that is a subjective term—through my employer.  I pay over $400 a month for my portion of the premium.  My employer pays more than that.  How in the hell can a person making minimum wage afford that, even with tax credits?

The answer: they can’t.  Instead, the insurance companies will offer bare minimum coverage for lower premiums “anyone” can afford.  This just shifts the burden back on the individual because the less that is covered, the more out of pocket expense you have.  And these tax credits that the federal government will provide will reduce federal revenues.  Sure, its not technically “new expenditures,” but its costing taxpayers big time. 

Without a single payer system supported with taxes, health care reform is doomed to fail.  When the newly “insured” under this farce of a plan bend over, it won’t be because they’re receiving a rectal examination…

Ah, the republicans, god bless em and I know they think
god does. Their behavior is familiar, but they’re
missing those nice brown dress shirts. I suppose the
next step is a raucous night; breaking windows in those
neighborhoods they deem immigrant/illegal areas. They
already have their swastikas, but now they look like
crosses. Oh yeah, and wingtips will become jackboots!

Obama’s health care proposal, as I understood him to explain it, provides the opposite of a single payer system offered by most advanced industrialized countries.

Instead of an “everybody in, nobody out” system run by the government and paid by taxes, which is the least expensive, Obama is supporting the most expensive, which forces nearly everybody to buy private insurance from for profit companies.

It is the most expensive health care system because it does not regulate the private insurance industry to prevent it from constantly raising premiums, deductibles and co-pays.

Since it is not a government run system like that provided U.S. veterans, which negotiates drug prices, it allows pharmaceutical companies to charge anything they like for drugs. That’s why most drugs purchased in the U.S. cost three and four times what they cost abroad.

All in all, Obama’s plan will, in all probability, increase rather than decrease the portion of the GDP that goes to health care.

As such, Obama’s plan favors first and foremost the interests and profits of the private insurance industry, followed by center left lawmakers in key committees in Congress in both the Democratic and Republican parties. Like Obama, the large majority of them have received millions of dollars of campaign contributions from the private insurance and pharmaceutical industries.

Although Obama made rhetorical references to the needs of the American people, he made it clear that he is not going to get behind the health care policy favored by a majority of Americans, which is a Medicare-like system or facsimile referred to as a “public option”.

Obama’s willingness to get up before a televised joint session of Congress and discuss a plan that flouts the will of a majority of Americans shows that U.S. voters do not control government.

Their elected representatives in Congress and the White House will pass whatever legislation they and their corporate campaign contributors wish to pass regardless of the will of the people.

Per the book, Re-Inventing Democracy, which can be read free online, the refusal of a Democratic president and Democratic-controlled Congress to honor the majority will, just as the preceding Republican administration did, shows that the time has come to re-invent our democracy to enable voters can get control of government and restore popular sovereignty in America.

I think it is the Swiss who have private insurance companies but they cannot make any profit on the basic policies.  They can offer supplemental policies that allow for private rooms and other extras.  This was done by referendum in a country which has strong insurance companies and big pharma.  The insurance companies actually compete for customers because there are incentives for management based on the numbers.  They have some issues but the basic system works very well for them.  It is not a single payer system and I think they have subsidies for those who can’t pay.  It seems to me this is a good compromise between a government run program and what we have now.

Of course, we need a uniquely “American” solution (the not invented here syndrome) that enriches corporations while destroying everyone else.  What a joke this country has become in the world.  Watching the stupidity that passes for government must be a favorite pastime for many.  I know we have lost almost all credibility here in Eastern Europe.

Regardless of which way this Bill goes, insurance companies stand to make out very well. If there’s a “government plan”, it will most likely be implemented and managed by a private insurance company. That’s a direct subsidy to the company. That’s called Privatization, or Coporatization.

If there’s a mandate there will be an individual subsidy, which will ultimately go to an insurance company.

Or there may be a combination of the two.

Win-win.

Personally, if given a choice, I would say an individual subsidy is better than a corporate subsidy. At least with an individual subsidy, there’s some choice left to the consumer.

While I believe the article well written I think it fails the litmus test of understanding the realities at play regarding health care reform.

I think it absurd that the distortions of such reform by extremists on the right ,backed no doubt by insurance industry money, go unchallenged while our President believes bipartisanship still in play.

I think it absurd that the Democratic Party as a whole wallows in campaign contributions from the very industry it claims to be “reigning in”.

I think it especially absurd that 36 nations have better, more inclusive and less expensive health care system than do we.

Lastly, I think it absurd that we the people actually believe we can reform the Health Care Industry within a system controlled, in part at least, by the money from said industry.

Comparing having to buy health insurance to having to buy liability insurance for you car is not a valid
comparison. You can choose not to have a car. You can use “public” transit or walk/bike. If we are legally
bound to buy insurance then we have lost our freedom plain and simple. We will live in a fascist state.

It’s one thing to HAVE TO PAY taxes. Taxes go for social programs for the good of the people. For
infrastructure. And a little goes to some war machine somewhere…

Put this together with the Supreme Court on the verge of eliminating campaign finance laws allowing
corporations to then legally sponsor, or own, a candidate then it’s game over for “We the people.”

So, we now HAVE TO BUY insurance from a private corporation.
“HAVE TO.” Think of the billions in new profits for insurance
companies! And the public option will be the catch-all for those who
are not profitable, I mean really sick, I mean can’t afford to pay-pay-
pay… So, what will define who can’t afford insurance? Will it be when
the premiums are more than you total income?

Boy, I wish I could have the government make people HAVE TO BUY
my services.

This was an excellent analysis of Obama’s speech although it had too much of that overplayed “let’s still wait and see what his genius does.” Let’s be honest, Obama is a lawyer, he knows how to talk, Obama is a disciple of the free market, he’s not going to propose anything that will threaten the corporate aspect of U.S. healthcare. The people want real, 100% change? Then we have to get into Paris 1789 mode. 2010 is the 100th anniversary of the Mexican Revolution and analysts predict another mass uprising down south, lets hope that if it comes, some of that spirit will spill over the border.