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A 9/11 Reality Check

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Posted on Sep 9, 2009
U.S. soldier in Afghanistan
AP / Alex Brandon

Two Afghan men watch from their motorcycle on Saturday as soldiers with the 20th Special Forces Group go on a training mission in Afghanistan.

By Robert Scheer

What if eight years ago the World Trade Center had been leveled by a small nuclear bomb that took out most of lower Manhattan as well? How many millions of innocent civilians would we have killed in retaliation? Would we still be a free society, or would Dick Cheney have attained the power of a demented king, having moved on from snooping on our phone calls and outing honest CIA agents to destroying the last vestiges of the rule of law?       

As assaults on a society go, the 9/11 attacks, which left 3,000 dead and are sure to be described in this anniversary week as being among the greatest of historical outrages, were something less than that, given the world’s experience with the ravages of war. The countless Russians and the 6 million Jews killed by those so finely educated Germans come to mind. The 3.4 million Vietnamese, mostly rice farmers, whom Robert McNamara admitted to having helped kill with his carpet-bombing of their country, are a forgotten footnote. Yet we who have never experienced such carnage on our home front all too easily poke out tens of thousands of eyes for each lost one of our own.

Surely two planes crashing into office buildings and another hitting the Pentagon doesn’t compare to the leveling of every major city in Japan with conventional bombing, capped off by the mass murder of hundreds of thousands more at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Speaking of eyes lost, mark the words of Hiroshima’s mayor two years ago: “That fateful summer, 8:15 AM. The roar of a B-29 breaks the morning calm. A parachute opens in the blue sky. Then suddenly, a flash, an enormous blast—silence—hell on Earth. The eyes of young girls watching the parachute were melted.”

We assumed that the Japanese people would readily forgive us and, having been raised in the spirit of total obedience to their emperor, they accommodated our occupation quite well, even injecting industrial-grade silicon into their women’s breasts to satisfy the erotic appetites of our soldiers.

Americans who blithely claim the moral high ground with every pledge of allegiance to a flag that, because it is American, is assumed to have never been sullied by imperial greed or moral contradiction expect no less than instant and full forgiveness for our “mistakes.” Only last month, four decades after he led the massacre of 500 villagers in My Lai, Vietnam, did former Army Lt. William Calley express “regret” for his crimes. He served no time in prison for the point-blank shooting of toddlers, thanks to the commutation of his sentence by Richard Nixon, who might have been anticipating his own need for a presidential pardon.

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In blind and wrathful retaliation for 9/11 we wreaked havoc on Iraq, a nation that our then-president knew had not attacked us, and we continue to slaughter peasants in Afghanistan who aren’t able to find Manhattan on a map.

We, a people whose nation has never suffered a long and widespread occupation, easily gave vent to our most barbaric impulses, assuming the absolute right to arrest and torture anyone anywhere in the world without revealing his identity, let alone respecting a single one of those God-given rights that we claim for ourselves alone. And even when we identify the few we hold responsible for the attacks on our soil, we refuse them public and fair trials even after years of torturing them.

But we do have a saving grace for our experiment in democracy—although unfortunately it did not exist in the Supreme Court or Congress as a barrier to an imperial vice presidency. It is the power of the lone whistle-blower of conscience, occasionally given voice in what remains of our free press and which can influence presidential elections, as happened quite dramatically this last time around. There are those like Joe Wilson, who exposed presidential fraud masquerading as national security concern over bogus Iraqi purchases of uranium from Niger, and more recently the truth-telling of Ali H. Soufan, a former FBI agent and lead interrogator of terrorists.

In Sunday’s New York Times, Soufan, who was involved in obtaining much reliable information from prisoners before they were tortured, observed that the recently released memos cited by Cheney to back his argument that torture was efficient actually “fail to show that the techniques stopped even a single imminent threat of terrorism.”

So, Cheney is again proved wrong, but if there had been a larger attack on 9/11, I doubt whether many free souls would be around now to tell him so.

Click here to check out Robert Scheer’s book,
“The Great American Stickup: How Reagan Republicans and Clinton Democrats Enriched Wall Street While Mugging Main Street.”


Keep up with Robert Scheer’s latest columns, interviews, tour dates and more at www.truthdig.com/robert_scheer.



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By NZDoug, September 13, 2011 at 12:17 am Link to this comment

One more time!

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Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, September 21, 2009 at 9:52 pm Link to this comment

Re Folktruther, September 21 at 6:31 pm

Hey, that’s a pretty good piece of analysis there, FT. So you would say that while as an “anarchist” Anarcissie consciously rejects government authority, there is a deeper unconscious acceptance and fear of that authority creating defense mechanisms that justify not looking at reality, at clear public facts presented by science, but instead to dismiss the presenter as a “crackpot” or “conspiracy theorist”.

I would also say that this big lie technique makes use of the human herding instinct. It is safe to stay with the herd, whereas stragglers are picked off by predators. In the same way it is psychologially safe to believe what most people believe, and for most people, public opinion, what most people believe,IS truth. So after the trauma of 9-11, when the government first announced its fabrication about the 19 hijackers, everybody believed it. As time went on, some people capable of independent thought began to notice there were huge holes in the government story. But by then they were fighting against the momentum of public opinion: the overriding feeling that what everybody believes must be true. It is very difficult to turn public opinion around because of this herding instinct.

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By Marshall, September 21, 2009 at 5:58 pm Link to this comment

“the false idea that low grade processing of nuclear material is what is used in bomb making. It is high grade refining that is what is necessary for weapons production and it is much more difficult to do than for reactor fuel.”

to be accurate - low enriched uranium is refined into high enriched uranium through an iterative process which continuously separates and reblends the two isotopes to increase the total percentage of u-235.  (Low-grade enrichment could be used in so-called “dirty” bombs, but this isn’t what we’re worried about with Iran to my knowledge.)

Since low-enriched uranium is required to reach high enrichment, this part of the civilian fuel generation cycle can have duel-use value, though it would also require a reconfiguration of the centrifuge arrangement before high enrichment production could begin.  It takes large amounts of low-enriched uranium to produce small amounts of high-enriched uranium, so the more low-enriched uranium Iran produces and the more centrifuges it has, the more bomb-grade uranium it could produce more quickly.

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By Folktruther, September 21, 2009 at 3:31 pm Link to this comment

Anarissie is a strong believer in rationality, and yet refuses to take the evidence and reasoning of the 9/11 truthers seriously.  We are characterized as kooks, crackpots, and paranoids as, presumably, are all demolition experts, physcists, architects, engineers, pilots and former high officals who argue despite it being career suicide for professionals to do so.  Why is this?

Paul Craig Roberts explains why in a recent piece on Information Clearing House called WHY PROGAGANA TRUMPS TRUTH.  He discribes a theory that one of his teachers at Oxford held, the famous Michal Polanyi, on chemical absorbion, that was completely rejected by his colleagues.  a half a century later it was rediscovered and accepted, although denigrated by the oldeer scientists as ‘Polanyi’s old error.” 

Polanyi was asked to address scientists on this half century of failure to recognize truth.  Polayni’s answer was that science was a belief system like every other intellectual system and his theory was outside the belief system.

A recent article in the journal Sociological Inquiry addresses why Big Lies triumph.  People become emotionally involved in the explanation given by authority, and it becomes part of their emotional identity and sense of morality.  Belief retention biases a person to look only at that evidence that are arguments that support the belief, and not look at the opposing evidence and arguments.  Since Anaricissie beleives in rationality, in supporting ‘crackpot’ theories we must be guided by Faith.  This protects his belief system and justifies not looking at professional specialists who argue differently, who must be ‘crackpots’
or guided by faith.

Anarcissie is consciously against governmental authoirty.  But he strongly defends the absurdity of the government’s position against challenges. These contraditions are common in the American people, the staying power of the official conspiracy “the 19 Hijackers’ being a truth barrior to obvvious inconsistencies, descreptancies and implausabilities.  And to plausable alternative explanations.

Anarcisie, and the american people, can simply withdraw from the argument, pointing to kooks among us, as there obviously are.

The fear of retaliation for going against the Americn government tends to infanitlize the American people, leading them to identify with a strong authority to protect them ie the State.  The reason, then, that propaganda trumps truth is because authority trmups reason. And Anarcissie, and Americans, who can’t abide this consciously, retreat from the argument.

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By Night-Gaunt, September 17, 2009 at 11:25 am Link to this comment

Also I have seen where a direct misrepresentation of facts have been promulgated to the poorly and misinformed electorate. Namely they have been promoting the false idea that low grade processing of nuclear material is what is used in bomb making. It is high grade refining that is what is necessary for weapons production and it is much more difficult to do than for reactor fuel. Just at the end of an article on Iran and nuclear weapons. Biased ‘news’ full of the sneakiest lies. Just one simple change that poisoned the minds of those who read it but do not know even the simplest data on nuclear technology.

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By whole2th, September 17, 2009 at 9:13 am Link to this comment

Iran Nuclear ‘Threat’ Hyped

What’s a “little lie” to Israeli right-wing criminals?  Well, it is their modus
operandi, that’s what.


- Iran is unlikely to be able to produce enough highly enriched uranium (HEU)
for a nuclear weapon until at least 2013, according to a United States
government intelligence estimate made public last Thursday.—Daniel Luban,
“New nuke report debunks Iran hawks,” atimes.com, August 11, 2009


- Iran is not going to produce a nuclear weapon any time soon and the threat
posed by its atomic program has been exaggerated, the U.N. nuclear watchdog
chief said in a published interview.—“Iran nuclear ‘threat’ hyped: IAEA’s
ElBaradei,” Reuters, September 2, 2009


- This latest U.S. intelligence-community assessment is potentially
controversial for several reasons, not the least of which is that it is at odds with
more alarming assessments propounded by key U.S. allies, most notably Israel.
Officials of Israel’s conservative-led government have been delivering
increasingly dire assessments of Irans nuclear progress and have leaked shrill
threats about a possible Israeli military attack on Iranian nuclear facilities.—
Mark Hosenball, “Intelligence Agencies Say No New Nukes in Iran: Secret
updates to White House challenge European and Israeli assessments,”
Newsweek, September 16, 2009

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By prosefights, September 16, 2009 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment

SEPTEMBER 15, 2009 Bret Stephens


Events are fast pushing Israel toward a pre-emptive military strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities, probably by next spring.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203917304574410672271269390.html

What’s going to happen?

http://www.prosefights.org/nmlegal/ncualove/walters.htm#director2

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By whole2th, September 16, 2009 at 4:06 pm Link to this comment

The evidence that the 9/11 Commission report is BIG LIES has prevailed with
Anarcisse fleeing the scene of his obfuscating and ridiculing posting.  Even
disinformation agents from the Q group cannot overcome the truth.

Looking back to the Sheerer article, it is chilling to think that Israel may have
chosen to use its nuclear capabilities in false flags operations within the United
States.  Those who were so ruthless as to orchestrate 9/11 would go to hell to
preserve their grip on power.

If such a nuclear attack should occur, think Israel first.

Mr. Sheerer, is this a cloaked warning?

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By PatrickHenry, September 16, 2009 at 3:41 pm Link to this comment

Architectual digest huh.

Magazine for interior decorators - no archives relating to World Trade center of 9/11.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architectural_Digest

or:

http://www.architecturaldigest.com/

Judge for yourself, is ardee a lying sack of shit or not? you decide.

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By omniadeo, September 16, 2009 at 3:40 pm Link to this comment

ardee,

1) you gave no link
2) there is no “archive” section at AD, nor could I google said articles (how about a title and author, since you are so familiar wih the material?)
3)AD, a Conde Nast Publication, along with Golf Digest and Bride, is not a “scholarly tome.”
4) The pancake theory of collapse is no longer the official version, even NIST has abandoned it as untenable

(http://wtc.nist.gov/WTC Response Presentation 11122002 text.pdf; I give links!)

so even if those articles exist, they are no longer the official story, which has also been thoroughly debunked.

That all you got? I thought so.

Report this

By diamond, September 16, 2009 at 3:35 pm Link to this comment

Pancake schmancake ardee. This was not, not, not, not a pancake collapse. A pancake collapse is completely different. This was a demolition, a controlled implosion that starts in the basement and then brings the building down in such a way that the sides don’t bulge and it doesn’t topple. Take a look at photos of pancake collapses and then try to tell me that that in any way resembles what you see at the World Trade Centre. It’s chalk and cheese. The Towers came down in roughly 10 seconds and for a 110 storey building that’s freefall speed or the speed at which an object falls through air.All objects (regardless of their mass) free fall with the same acceleration - 10 m/s/s. A pancake collapse,as many experts have pointed out, would have taken 96 seconds for a 110 story building, not 10 seconds. It’s the law of gravity, you can’t change it and it only happens when a building is blown up.

It’s true that the Twin Towers had a unique design but that unique design was created specifically to prevent the building coming down in a fire, if it was hit by a plane or if it was hit by a hurricane with wind gusts up to 400 miles an hour. A fire burned in one of the Towers in 1975 for three hours, twice as long as on 9/11 and it showed no sign whatsoever of coming down.  To this day no other steel framed building anywhere in the world has come down because of fire and no building that I know of has come down at free fall speed because of fire.

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By ardee, September 16, 2009 at 2:39 pm Link to this comment

omniadeo, September 16 at 9:50 am #

...and I say it isnt worth the effort, you will not listen anyway. Link to Architectural Digest, go to the archives and you will find a number of articles referencing the unique architecture of the Towers as responsible for the “pancaking effect”....and there are many more from engineering trade journals as well.

But conspiracists, and I agree with Anarcissie on this, automatically reject any common sense and ,in fact, incorporate it into their paranoid delusions.

Good day to you all, have fun banging your heads against the wall, you do seem to enjoy it so much. Ive got politics to discuss….

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By omniadeo, September 16, 2009 at 2:39 pm Link to this comment

“Irritated by faith” ??? Curious diction. What “faith” do you see in physics papers and carefully researched timelines drawn from major sources?

And I am sorry that a major operation involving at least three of the worlds most powerful intelligence agencies, the US Military, explosives and two major wars with millions dead bores you.

Guesss you will have to get excited by the usual left vs. right comments and distractions which pass for political commentary here.

As usual the"skeptics” prove very unskeptical and either prove to be tools, or lazy thinkers encumbered by pre-conceptions and emotional, resistances to the horrible truth about 911.

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By Anarcissie, September 16, 2009 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment

I can’t speak for any of the other skeptics, but I am returning to my former policy of immediately leaving any discussion taken over by conspiratists.  I’m not saying you’re wrong—even a stopped clock is right twice a day—but I am bored and irritated by faith, and I must leave it alone.

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By omniadeo, September 16, 2009 at 10:27 am Link to this comment

still waiting…

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By omniadeo, September 16, 2009 at 6:50 am Link to this comment

ardee,

i challenge you to link to, or at least identify the “scholarly tomes” that defend the official story

i have seen the 911 commission’s dime store novel, the NIST report, the discredited Seffen paper, a bunch of refused FOIA requests, and an emotionally based refusal to ask questions or look at evidence on the part of defenders of the “official” story, from D. Cheney to yourself…

point me to this scholarly body of work so i can review it…i say you can’t

Report this

By whole2th, September 16, 2009 at 5:29 am Link to this comment

One who dedicates his efforts in this thread to deception, ridicule and ad
hominem writes:  “Oh, honestly, do you really truly fail to see the reams and
volumes of scholarly tomes pointing out the fallacious “science” of you
conspiracy folks?  This objection by you is really in need of a more adult
attempt.”

Yes, I honestly report the science—the scientific fact that a new, exotic
explosive was found in four dust samples from ground zero.  It is also fact that
the government agency, NIST, admits to not testing any WTC debris for
explosives residue.

http://russiatoday.com/Politics/2009-07-09/Did_nano-
thermite_take_down_the_WTC.html

Science shows it is impossible for buildings to fall into their own rigid structure
and mass at freefall rate speed.

Science shows that a 757 cannot fit into a crater in Pennsylvania the size of a
car.

Science disproves the official story of 9/11—shows it to be a lie, a farce.  Like
you, Ardee.

The science of mass psychology and propaganda are well described in the
article that your ridiculing spam post attempts to cover: 
http://atheonews.blogspot.com/2009/09/why-propaganda-trumps-
truth.html

I invite you to look in a mirror, Ardee, and tell us what you think of yourself,
your mission, your aspirations.  What kind of world are you doggedly
determined to implement, Ardee? 

I’ll bet that Ed Asner likes who he sees in the mirror:

http://ae911truth.org/audio/Ed_Asner60sec.wav

Report this

By ardee, September 16, 2009 at 4:58 am Link to this comment

omniadeo, September 15 at 5:34 pm #

Oh, honestly, do you really truly fail to see the reams and volumes of scholarly tomes pointing out the fallacious “science” of you conspiracy folks?

This objection by you is really in need of a more adult attempt.

Report this
PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, September 16, 2009 at 3:20 am Link to this comment

The “Big” lie.

http://atheonews.blogspot.com/2009/09/why-propaganda-trumps-truth.html

Report this
PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, September 15, 2009 at 3:01 pm Link to this comment

By whole2th, September 14 at 7:18 am #

I read recently that NSA or CIA has a program to intercept and counter any evidence linking US government with orchestrating/allowing 9/11, and that about 1000 goons are involved in this—some private contractors and some are government goons.  I forget the name of the disinformation operation.  Anyone here know about this—and the Operation name?

Ask and you shall recieve.

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_4878.shtml

Report this

By omniadeo, September 15, 2009 at 2:34 pm Link to this comment

Let’s take a look:

911 “Truthers” use: On the record facts, research papers by physics professors and engineers, scholarly attributions, a growing body of evidence, both technical and historical, that is mostly corroberative as to how the event happened, lots of unanswered questions.

911 truth “Debunkers” use: Deductive a priori reasoning that argues away any need for facts, etc, because of “high school chemistry” or “the world doesn’t work like that” or “it would take hundreds of people who can’t keep a secret” or, just, “you’re a wacko.”

Hmmm. Shop for truth carefully folks.

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By diamond, September 15, 2009 at 2:08 pm Link to this comment

Isn’t it interesting how people who don’t give two hoots about freedom (for anyone else that is) and don’t even really believe in democracy are always talking about democracy or calling themselves things like freedem? Anyone who doesn’t know by now that those buildings were demolished is living in denial. Yes, it’s shocking because it means government and secret service involvement, which is treason,but lots of shocking things happen in this world and burying your head in the sand doesn’t make them go away it just encourages the bastards to do the same thing or something worse in future.

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By whole2th, September 15, 2009 at 1:16 pm Link to this comment

ttp://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?
TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM

The conclusions that explosives played a role in the destruction of the Twin
Towers and Building 7 withstand the jeering ridicule of “Freedem” and
“Anarcisse”—and, we can conclude that it is SCIENTIFIC FACT that new class of
nano-particle aluminothermics explosives were used to complete the
demolition of the Twin Towers.

New investigations are of paramount importance.

Israel (Mossad) is a prime suspect in the placement of nanothermite
throughout the Twin Towers.  US agencies,  (FBI, CIA, Securities & Exchange
Commission investigative division) which were tenants of Building 7 likely had
roles in overlooking—or even in participating in placement of strategic
charges in Building 7 to take that building down just like a Las Vegas hotel
demolition in 7 seconds.  http://wtc7.net and http://ae911truth.org

Patterns of ridiculing and diversionary replies here are characteristic of
disinformation campaigns to hide the truth.

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Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, September 15, 2009 at 11:45 am Link to this comment

By freedem, September 15 at 2:41 pm

You know absolutely nothing and have no credibility here. You will not read or discuss a peer-reviewed scientific paper but continue to offer opinions based on sheer ignorance. It’s not worth the trouble to respond to you any farther.

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By freedem, September 15, 2009 at 11:41 am Link to this comment

No point in attempting any discussion with the delusional, but thank you Ouroborus for pointing out that site, I did not try to prove how anti-rust paint worked because they teach (or used to) that stuff in advanced high school Chemistry, or at least College Freshman Chemistry.

Aluminum does indeed have a high energy of oxidation but to make any sort of explosion one would need a source of that oxygen, and iron oxide would not fit that bill.

I also have some knowledge of the steel industry and indeed that is sprayed on every beam that went out of the shop.

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By whole2th, September 15, 2009 at 9:45 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie wrote:  ” Yet the existence of certain combustion products in the
detritus of the World Trade Center is positively held to prove that explosives
were used to bring it down.”

What was found by ten European and American scientists was UNCOMBUSTED
nanothermite—a new generation of explosive/incendiary materials known as
‘aluminothermics’.  This explosive does not evolve from a jet fuel fire—and
didn’t exist at the time of the Twin Towers’ constrution.

It is a SCIENTIFIC FACT that nanothermite was found in the WTC debris and
that the government agency responsible for forensics of the crime scene
admitted that it did not test for explosives residue.

Not only was nanothermite found, the combustion byproducts of nanothermite
reaction were also identified.  These findings are consistent with the official
government (FEMA APPENDIX C) report entitled “Limited Metallurgical
Examination”.

http://ae911truth.org/audio/Ed_Asner60sec.wav

9/11 has all the evidence of an Israeli “false flags” operation. 

http://southeastasianews.org/israeli_connections_to_911.html

President Cossiga of Italy said it is common knowledge that Israel, CIA and
Pakistani ISI orchestrated 9/11.

Who did 9/11?  http://whodidit.org/cocon.html  Note the many coconspirators
who hold dual US/Israeli citizenship.

Unreasonableness is regularly displayed by Anarcissie in 1) ignoring the
handful of invitations to engage the evidence of nanothermite and 2) using
ridicule to attempt to distract from the scientific fact that the exotic explosive
was found in the ground zero debris.

9/11 was an inside job.  I’ll bet Anarcissie is connected with Israel or CIA/NSA-
-or both.

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By Tony Wicher, September 15, 2009 at 7:41 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie,

Still, you won’t read the paper or respond to it, so whatever you say has no value. Until you do so, you are just wasting everbody’s time with your fact-free bloviating.

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, September 15, 2009 at 7:01 am Link to this comment

Russian Paul:
‘Anarcissie, it does come across as disingenuous that you won’t respond directly to the document in question and just resort to the usual tin-foil-hat insults. ...’

I pointed out that scientists were surprised at the results of burning a residential house (see http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann). No one knows what the results of starting a fire with thousands of gallons of jet fuel in a 110-story building of peculiar construction would be.  The physics and chemistry of such an operation are so complex they could not be predicted—one would have to build another building like the first one and destroy it in a similar manner to find out.  Yet the existence of certain combustion products in the detritus of the World Trade Center is positively held to prove that explosives were used to bring it down.

I don’t know how to deal with this sort of thinking, or rather, lack of it.  What will engender a little skepticism, a little rationality?  Where does this cornucopia of True Beliefs come from?  I don’t get it.

I do notice, though, that this sort of thing displaces rational thought and discussion about 9/11 and similar events, and discredits any sort of inquiry by association with what I (correctly) made fun of as tinfoil-hat theory.  For instance, we don’t have to worry about imperialism provoking hatred of the U.S., because 9/11 was engineered by Dick Cheney (or whoever).  So my conspiracy theory is that the ruling class is secretly encouraging 9/11 conspiratism in order to cover up their actual crimes.  I don’t need peculiar chemical residues to prove my theory: it’s right out in the open.  You have only to read this discussion (or any other discussion in which 9/11 is mentioned).  No doubt, then, many of the conspiratists are being paid by the CIA or the NSA.  No need to look for the facts—as I said, just make something up.

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By whole2th, September 15, 2009 at 6:21 am Link to this comment

If the attack had been a nuclear attack, we would be mentally numbed hearing
“Wooden Ships On The Watter” in our heads (those who remember Jefferson
Airplane).

Ruthless conspirators in 9/11 ( http://whodidit.org/cocon.html ) perhaps
weren’t ruthless enough to justify a full clampdown on human freedoms—and
Sheerer’s article notes the miscalculation in not going nuclear on 9/11.  They
miscalculated in allowing the internet to continue to function with most of the
“free world” having access to share findings such as the discovery of
nanothermite (explosives) in World Trade Center dust. 

Now the cat is out of the bag.  WE KNOW that 9/11 was a false flag operation,
and Sheerer expresses, between the lines, regrets—or, is it a veiled threat that
the next attack will deal a definitive blow against human freedom on this
planet and form the justifications for a totalitarian police state?

Scorch the earth if you will, evildoers.  You’ll share that “Wooden ships”, post-
holocaust world with the good people who just want to have enough to get by
and who would give the shirts of their backs to others to help them get by.

Now that the nanothermite is established fact, the best course for humanity is
for some to come forth and repent their complicity in orchestrating 9/11.

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Russian Paul's avatar

By Russian Paul, September 15, 2009 at 12:10 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie, it does come across as disingenuous that you won’t respond
directly to the document in question and just resort to the usual tin-foil-hat
insults. I myself have not come to a conclusion, I’m just keeping an open mind. Anyways, the official conspiracy theory has enough holes in it to require another more thorough investigation, wouldn’t you agree?

                                                          http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM

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By Tony Wicher, September 14, 2009 at 11:48 pm Link to this comment

By Anarcissie, September 15 at 12:00 am #

  whole2th:
  ’... Those here who continue to say there is no evidence of explosives—and who won’t engage the evidence in the Bentham Chemistry Physics Journal paper
  written by ten European and American scientists have an agenda of coverup, IMO.  Who are these disinfo agents protecting? ‘

I’m not protecting anybody.  (The idea that people on an insignificant web site are either exposing or protect malefactors of enormous wealth and power is called “delusion of reference”, if you want to look it up.)  I’m just tired of the flying-saucer BS.

————————————————————————-

Anarcissie,

Still, you won’t read the paper.

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By Anarcissie, September 14, 2009 at 9:00 pm Link to this comment

whole2th:
’... Those here who continue to say there is no evidence of explosives—and who won’t engage the evidence in the Bentham Chemistry Physics Journal paper
written by ten European and American scientists have an agenda of coverup, IMO.  Who are these disinfo agents protecting? ‘

I’m not protecting anybody.  (The idea that people on an insignificant web site are either exposing or protect malefactors of enormous wealth and power is called “delusion of reference”, if you want to look it up.)  I’m just tired of the flying-saucer BS.

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By Tony Wicher, September 14, 2009 at 8:17 am Link to this comment

By Ouroborus, September 14 at 1:57 am  

By Ouroborus, September 14 at 1:57 am #

Tony Wicher, September 14 at 1:09 am #

Um, it’s not “my” site. I just found it interesting.
So, no opposing views/information allowed? Hmm
       
        x x x x x x xx x x x x x x xx

Ouroborous,

That’s exactly what I didn’t say. I said I don’t waste my time on debunking sites such as this, but I also specifically said that if there is anything on this site that you find worth discussing, please bring it up and I will go into it with you.

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By Tony Wicher, September 14, 2009 at 8:10 am Link to this comment

By Anarcissie, September 14 at 8:07 am #

  whole2th:

  ‘Opposing views are certainly allowed.  This conversation, however, keeps returning to a scientific fact:  unreacted nanothermite was found in quantity in
  four ground zero dust samples.’

I haven’t seen anything presented as scientific facts.
——————————————————————————-
Anarcissie,

You haven’t seen anything because you refuse to read the paper that presents the evidence. Please read it, or please don’t bother to comment on the subject.

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By whole2th, September 14, 2009 at 6:58 am Link to this comment

http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?
TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/thermite/explosive_residues.html

The references above have been provided here a couple of times.  This is the
third time it has been posted—the PROOF…irrefutable proof….that explosives
were inside the WTC Twin Towers.

You won’t see this unless you look and read the report.

The discovery of nanothermite, an exotic and relatively new
explosive/incendiary, answers the questions of what caused “rapid sulfidation
and oxidation” and “invasion of sulfer at the eutectic grain boundaries of
structural steel” samples from the Twin Towers and WTC7 that the official
FEMA Report in Appendix C alludes to—yet the government didn’t finish
explaining how this reaction could occur to the structural steel.  Now we know
that nanothermite was at least a portion of what finished off the Twin Towers-
-with the planes being the ruse to convince those of less scientific knowledge
that buildings can fall into their greatest resistance at freefall speed.

Former Italian President Francesco Cossiga, who revealed the existence of
Operation Gladio, has told Italy’s oldest and most widely read newspaper that
the 9-11 terrorist attacks were run by the CIA and Mossad, and that this was
common knowledge among global intelligence agencies. In what translates
awkwardly into English, Cossiga told the newspaper Corriere della Sera:
“All the [intelligence services] of America and Europeknow well that the
disastrous attack has been planned and realized from the Mossad, with the aid
of the Zionist world in order to put under accusation the Arabic countries and
in order to induce the western powers to take part in Iraq [and] Afghanistan.”

Those here who continue to say there is no evidence of explosives—and who
won’t engage the evidence in the Bentham Chemistry Physics Journal paper
written by ten European and American scientists have an agenda of coverup,
IMO.  Who are these disinfo agents protecting?

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By Anarcissie, September 14, 2009 at 5:07 am Link to this comment

whole2th:

‘Opposing views are certainly allowed.  This conversation, however, keeps returning to a scientific fact:  unreacted nanothermite was found in quantity in
four ground zero dust samples.’

I haven’t seen anything presented as scientific facts.  I’ve seen individuals asserting such things, but not the evidence itself, or the reports of the evidence.  Nor have I seen scientific evidence that the residues found in the remains of the World Trade Center could only have come from controlled demolition using explosives installed in the building.  I did recently read an article that asserted that, in a different context than this one, researchers built a house to test some theories about arson, and discovered that the interior became much hotter much faster than they had previously believed.  That was a little old residential house, not a very large, uniquely constructed 110-story building.

’... I read recently that NSA or CIA has a program to intercept and counter any
evidence linking US government with orchestrating/allowing 9/11, and that
about 1000 goons are involved in this—some private contractors and some are
government goons.  I forget the name of the disinformation operation.  Anyone
here know about this—and the Operation name?’

Just make something up.

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By whole2th, September 14, 2009 at 4:18 am Link to this comment

Opposing views are certainly allowed.  This conversation, however, keeps
returning to a scientific fact:  unreacted nanothermite was found in quantity in
four ground zero dust samples.

The naysayers to 9/11 truth seem speechless to reply to this finding of exotic
explosives—except to allege that it is found spray painted on all steel beams
in America and as car paint.

Mainstream television in France just featured this scientific paper’s findings.

I read recently that NSA or CIA has a program to intercept and counter any
evidence linking US government with orchestrating/allowing 9/11, and that
about 1000 goons are involved in this—some private contractors and some are
government goons.  I forget the name of the disinformation operation.  Anyone
here know about this—and the Operation name?

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By Ouroborus, September 13, 2009 at 10:57 pm Link to this comment

Tony Wicher, September 14 at 1:09 am #

Um, it’s not “my” site. I just found it interesting.
So, no opposing views/information allowed? Hmm…

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By Tony Wicher, September 13, 2009 at 10:45 pm Link to this comment

By Kesey Seven, September 12 at 7:30 pm #

9/11 Truthers,

Okay, let’s suppose you’re right.  Why do you have infiltrate Realtime’s audience and disrupt Bill Mahrer’s show?

  x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x xx x x x x

I have been a fan of Maher for years. I have been on his show. Of course Bill Maher has a right to disagree with us. But does he have the balls to have, say, David Ray Griffin one of his panels? Unfortunately not.

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By Tony Wicher, September 13, 2009 at 10:09 pm Link to this comment

The substance found by Jones is nanothermite, which has different properties than ordinary thermite. The presence of nanothermite is not a “theory”. It is a fact. What is it doing there?

I will not waste my time on your debunking site, but if there is any particular point brought up there you would like to discuss, please do so.

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By whole2th, September 13, 2009 at 7:09 pm Link to this comment

Freedem alleges without any proof or references that nanothermite is painted
onto every steel beam in America.

The nanothermite (exotic explosive) which was discovered in the ground zero dust
samples was tested for its combustion properties and was found to be highly
energetic (explosive).  Read the Bentham Chemical Physics journal paper,
Freedem—and step back from scientific discussion until you learn the protocols
that require you to provide evidence to back up your claims.

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By whole2th, September 13, 2009 at 6:43 pm Link to this comment

The word is “hypothesis”—and the discussions should be about whether
evidence supporting the various hypotheses is valid evidence or untrustworthy
evidence.

Certainly, emotion can cloud the viewing of evidence—and ardee seems to be
a bit stuck to speak about the nanothermite findings.  Perhaps there is a
meeting of disinformation agents going on to agree upon a response.

Former Brigham Young University physics professor Dr. Steven E. Jones and
some 700 scientific professionals in the fields of architecture, engineering, and
physics have now concluded that the official explanation for the collapse of the
World Trade Center (WTC) buildings is implausible according to laws of physics.
Especially troubling is the collapse of WTC 7, a forty-seven-story building that
was not hit by planes, yet dropped in its own “footprint” in 6.6 seconds in the
same manner as a controlled demolition. To support this theory, Jones and
eight other scientists conducted chemical research on the dust from the World
Trade centers. Their research results were published in a peer-reviewed
scientific journal Open Chemical Physics Journal, Volume 2, 2009. The authors
write, “We have discovered distinctive red/gray chips in all the samples. The
properties of these chips were analyzed using optical microscopy, scanning
electron microscopy (SEM), X-ray energy dispersive spectroscopy (XEDS), and
differential scanning calorimetry (DSC). The red portion of these chips is found
to be an unreacted thermitic material and highly energetic.” Thermite is a
pyrotechnic composition of a metal powder and a metal oxide, which produces
an aluminothermic reaction known as a thermite reaction and is used in
controlled demolitions of buildings.

The nanothermite discovery seems to be taboo news here at “Truth"dig.  This
news is based on solid scholarly research.  Such withholding of key information
represents the failure of alternative media like (Truthdig, AlterNet) and the
corporate media in the US to keep the American people democratically
informed on important issues. This lack of coverage of critical and potentially
political news stories is what many thousands of people in the US are now
calling a Truth Emergency. Political activists at all levels must support full news
transparency as an important component of building a non-exploitative world
based on democracy, truthfulness, and human rights.

Justifications for gutting our Constitution arise in the big lies of 9/11.

That the Bush administration desperately fought every attempt to
independently investigate the events of 9/11, is not a “theory.”  Bush only
caved to an investigation when he could appoint insiders to “investigate” and
report.  The key “investigor” with huge conflicts of interest was Philip Zelikow,
Executive Director of the 9/11 Commission.

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By freedem, September 13, 2009 at 6:04 pm Link to this comment

OMG - Who is calling themselves any sort of architect, engineer or any person with a shred of Science that is going on about “Nano-Thermite” painted on the steel beams?!?!

If you actually looked you would find “nanothermite” painted on nearly every steel beam in America, and probably on your cars as well. I went to the link about “nanothermite” and read a pretty good description of the red “antirust” paint that is sprayed on a very high percentage of all steel beams put up anywhere, and most cars as a base coat before the final color.

There would be several formulas that would work but aluminum flakes in a red oxide is pretty standard. If moisture gets through it is the aluminum that oxidizes instead of the steel. You might get it to burn but hardly an explosive, and would not even affect the skin of your car much less a quarter inch thick piece of steel.

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By Truth.Will.Win, September 13, 2009 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment

jackpine savage,

It would be far more effective, imo, for the truth movement to look for the
myriad holes in the government story and question those mercilessly. Using
the Socratic method would be more likely to A. force the authorities into
uncomfortable corners, B. force statements that lead to more difficult
questions and C. force people to ask questions themselves (with a hopeful
corollary of people looking for answers.

This is precisely what many “truthers” have been trying to do for quite some
time, and right now this is precisely what Charlie Sheen is attempting to do with
his 20 minutes with the President letter - he is raising 20 questions which need answering.

http://www.infowars.com/twenty-minutes-with-the-president/

This approach, however, does not keep the shills at Fox and indeed the rest of the mainstream media from resorting to base name calling and personal attacks rather than addressing these questions, or simply ignoring the questions completely.

If you are so certain that the official conspiracy theory as proscribed in the 911
Commission Report is robust and solid - it surely can withstand debate on its
own merits. 

But for heaven’s sake - 6 member or staffers of that commission themselves
have questioned the validity of the report.  This in itself justifies a new
investigation.

http://www.911summary.com/

And Jackpine, if 20 questions aren’t enough, a new investigating committee could start with the 115 errors or omissions from the original report raised here.

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/571-page-lie.htm

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By LocalHero, September 13, 2009 at 5:12 pm Link to this comment

OK, Wanderer. You wrote—

“I’ve also seen evidence that thermite couldn’t burn through such heavy steel beams.”

I haven’t seen it but fair enough. But where is your evidence showing jet fuel burning through heavy steel beams?

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By Tony Wicher, September 13, 2009 at 5:11 pm Link to this comment

Re Kesey Seven, September 12 at 7:30 pm

Kesey, my friend - you sound so reasonable I believe we may arrive at a meeting of the minds. You will recall that in my last post I asked to actually read the nanothermite paper. Did you? In your latest post, you did not say that you had. Here is a link to the original paper, which is not highly technical, followed by a link to a less-technical exegesis.

http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/thermite/explosive_residues.html

I do apologize for negative remarks made by people in the 9/11 truth movement to people who honestly disagree with them. Indeed this only hurts our cause.

Tony Wicher
Architects and Engineers for 9-11 Truth
ae911truth.org

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By SteveL, September 13, 2009 at 5:06 pm Link to this comment

Bush/Cheney reasons for going to war proved to be varied, dubious, and false.  What happened on 9-11 was just an excuse not a reason.  Without 9-11 Bush/Cheney would have found some other reason for their wars.

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By PatrickHenry, September 13, 2009 at 5:00 pm Link to this comment

As little ardee sits in his corner in New Jersey pouting, wondering if he should assume his ITW persona or go with his little girl ardee theme.  Gotta get up at 2:30 A.M. its his turn to oil the forklift today…..but I have stayup to namecall those big bad antisemites, decisions, decisions.

I do love how those insincere about getting to the bottom of 9/11 and the demolition of the WTC will do what they can to spoof the thread and misdirect the comments.

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/96336

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By Russian Paul, September 13, 2009 at 1:16 pm Link to this comment

Ardee - instead of reacting to some of the vitriol here, I’m interested in what you
think about the nano-thermite found at the site. I too haven’t made up my mind
either way about what happened on that day, but I find this evidence somewhat
compelling.

Here is a non-biased, non-bigoted source:
http://russiatoday.com/Politics/2009-07-09/Did_nano-thermite_take_down_the_WTC.html

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By ardee, September 13, 2009 at 12:27 pm Link to this comment

You need a forklift to stack the bullshit your stacking here

Better to stack bullshit than be a stinking bigot like yourself.

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By Anarcissie, September 13, 2009 at 10:13 am Link to this comment

jackpine savage:
’... It would be far more effective, imo, for the truth movement to look for the myriad holes in the government story and question those mercilessly. ...’

I suspect the mental state required for passionately maintaining a conspiracy theory requires a fairly precise theory.  At least, this is what we observe.

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By jackpine savage, September 13, 2009 at 9:57 am Link to this comment

I’m quite convinced that we don’t know anything close to the truth about 9/11. And as i’ve said countless times, what we’re actually dealing with are two, competing conspiracy theories.

But i think that the truth movement does itself a disfavor by concocting its own theories of what happened. When these are presented, the focus becomes poking holes in those theories.

It would be far more effective, imo, for the truth movement to look for the myriad holes in the government story and question those mercilessly. Using the Socratic method would be more likely to A. force the authorities into uncomfortable corners, B. force statements that lead to more difficult questions and C. force people to ask questions themselves (with a hopeful corollary of people looking for answers).

That being said, while i cannot discount the theory of controlled demolition it seems more likely that the events unfolded as we saw them. The question is who was actually pulling the strings and who aided and abetted the crime?

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By whole2th, September 13, 2009 at 9:48 am Link to this comment

By bane-richter, September 13 at 12:01 pm #
Burning jet fuel, structural failure. Done.

The third building, WTC7, which was not hit by a plane and was announced to
have already collapsed by BBC <<<23 minutes BEFORE it collapsed>>> is a
smoking gun that cannot be explained by “structural failure”. 
http://ae911truth.org

A FOXNEWS affiliate announced WTC7 collapse prematurely and so did a CNN
news piece announce the impending collapse. 

WTC7 was demolished and demonstrated all characteristics of controlled
demolition.

bane-richter ignores the nanothermite scientific paper published this April on
the Bentham Chemistry Physics journal—that proves use of explosives.  Why
ignore the science, bane-richter?

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By PatrickHenry, September 13, 2009 at 9:44 am Link to this comment

By bane-richter, September 13 at 12:01 pm #

Burning jet fuel, structural failure. Done.

That too.

http://www.911blogger.com/node/13272

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By bane-richter, September 13, 2009 at 9:01 am Link to this comment

Burning jet fuel, structural failure. Done.

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By whole2th, September 13, 2009 at 8:46 am Link to this comment

The Bentham article that irrefutably proves the presence of nanothermite, an
exotic explosive, in four dust samples from ground zero is the answer to the
official government questions posed in the last two paragraphs of FEMA
Appendix C “Limited Metallurgical Examination” that indicates further research
is needed to account for rapid melting of structural steel and sulfidation of the
steel which penetrated the eutectic grain boundaries. 

FEMA Appendix C:  http://wtc.nist.gov/media/AppendixC-fema403_apc.pdf 
The last two paragraphs propose need for further investigation.  That
investigation has been done—and the answer is consistent with the findings in
the FEMA Appendi.x C report

ardee wrote:  <i>I am insidious, according to you, because I use logic and
rationale while you spout crap and refuse to read or understand the scientific
evidence that disproves your own mental deficiencies…Nice job fool.<i>

Fool?  I’ve taken university courses in metals and I know about melting metals
and eutectics.  When the FEMA Appendix C report was published, this added to
WTC7’s obvious controlled demolition evidence to show the use of exotic
demolition materials to complete the demolition of the WTC buildings.  The
New York Times called the Appendix C findings a “smoking gun”—and indeed
the linking of the April, 2009 Bentham aluminothermics paper published by ten
European and American scientists with the FEMA Appendix “Limited
Metallurgical Examination” report is PRIMA FACIE evidence of advance
preparations of the buildings.

The former president of Italy, Cossiga, who is notable for outing a covert CIA
plot in Europe called Operation Gladio, said publicly that it is common
knowledge in the intelligence communities that 9/11 was orchestrated by US
CIA, Israeli Mossad and Pakistani ISI.  I would include elements of the Saudi
royalty in my list of probable orchestrators of 9/11.  Add to this the
mainstream media moguls and editors who continue to thwart efforts to get
the information, like above, into the public domain, and we do have a vast
conspiracy.

I’m looking forward to the next Truthdig article that attempts to spin the 9/11
official myths.  We in the truth movement who watch these articles, as the
CIA/Mossad trolls do, will be there to comment.  No doubt it is frustrating for
those who promote 9/11 lies, that such articles cannot be more regularly
posted—to continue to leveraging of the big lies in accomplishing political,
economic and social manipulation of the masses.  We who are willing to risk to
get 9/11 Truth into the forefront are vigilant—as are the ardees and the
Trollsteins—to carry on these battles for the minds and hearts of the
manipulated masses.

So, ridicule on, ardee.  Continue your dark work.  Be as vulgar and vitriolic as
you can—because it reveals your true nature as a disinformation agent.  You
convict yourself in your despicable style, ardee.  Thanks for being you.

PS:  I trust you are paid sufficiently for selling your soul.

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By PatrickHenry, September 13, 2009 at 8:27 am Link to this comment

ardee, heres the article again you refer to:

http://mantiqaltayr.wordpress.com/2009/07/25/jew-jersey/

Did you read it? you sure cry about it alot.

You need a forklift to stack the bullshit your stacking here.

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By Anarcissie, September 13, 2009 at 8:09 am Link to this comment

ardee:
‘I realise that this is a waste of time, but attempts to bring reason to an issue are always impelling for me. ...’

You’re right, it’s a waste of time.  It’s like arguing with people about their religion, or in the goodness of their masters, or their belief in flying saucers—whatever the True Belief happens to be.  It’s an interesting psychological phenomenon because it so impervious to skepticism.

If I may be a bit conspiratorial myself, I notice that conspiracy theories serve to discredit and cover up reasonable questions about the same subject which may be inconvenient for the authorities.  As you note there were gross lapses of security and there are also many questions which need to be asked about rescue, recovery and mitigation efforts, or lack of them.  As soon as conspiratists pop up, the authorities can focus on their irrationality and skip over answering the reasonable questions.  So it seems possible to me that the authorities are encouraging conspiratism.  This could be accomplished by the selective publication of various kinds of disinformation.  There would not be much risk in having some mid-level officials float unattributed fables to reporters.

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By ardee, September 13, 2009 at 8:08 am Link to this comment

Any time Israel is implicated in anything, especially a tragedy of this magnatude against a benefactor nation, the trolls will be out in force.

Troll ( to some half wits): anyone disagreeing, in any fashion, with ones own impression of an event.

It is unfortunate that some, like this sad little fellow, seem bulletproof to their obvious Antisemitism, displayed by linking to websites with obvious anti Hebrew agendas, containing articles with the title: Jew Jersey.

I find it sad that so many here ignore this slimer when they should, regardless of their own views of the actions of the State of Israel vis-a-vis the Palestinians, rise up and condemn him for his hatred and obvious mental instability.

Further, any perusal of my own efforts here quickly finds me to be one of the more vocal critics of Israel, but, of course, that fails to stop this brain damaged piece of—- from his sophomoric and bigoted rant.

Speaking of Trolls:

whole2th, September 13 at 1:47 pm #

ardee,

Being stubbornly closed minded to the irrefutable scientific proof of there
being a large quantity of nanothermite, an exotic explosive/incendiary, may
lead you to try to narrow the investigations to only why air defense systems
may have been in a ‘stand down’ condition.  But, I doubt this is your motive.  I
think your intentions are more insidious.

Projection is a psychological condition wherein one transfers ones own failings to another. It is you , in fact, that ignore reams of scientific evidence, some posted here in fact, that explain the things you see as proof of conspiracy as proof of your own blindness.

I am insidious, according to you, because I use logic and rationale while you spout crap and refuse to read or understand the scientific evidence that disproves your own mental deficiencies…Nice job fool.

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By Truth.Will.Win, September 13, 2009 at 7:49 am Link to this comment

The initial 911 investigation costing $15m over 3 months?  How does that compare with Ken Starr’s $30m over 3 years investigation of the Monica Lewinsky affair? (http://edition.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/04/01/starr.costs/)

Nearly 3,000 lives on Sept 11 followed by countless lost during the ensuing 2 wars versus a blowjob?

It’s amazing to see where America places its priorities.

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By PatrickHenry, September 13, 2009 at 7:47 am Link to this comment

By whole2th, September 13 at 1:47 pm #

Any time Israel is implicated in anything, especially a tragedy of this magnatude against a benefactor nation, the trolls will be out in force.

Just like our government, I am sure rogue elements exist in theirs.

One has to ask themselves Qui Bono? (who profits?).  clearly Israel has profited by the U.S. solving foreign policy problems for them, new munitions and added media sympathy for being surrounded by those mean rock throwing islamofacists.
One also has to ask who has the most to lose?  clearly Israel once again.  If the U.S. population is given absolute proof of Israeli involvement, Israel can kiss the billions of US tax dollars goodbye as well as guns, aircraft, bombs etc.  AIPAC, ADL and the host of other jewish organizations in America will be run out of town.  Media would certainly be shaken up as a result.

A concise, televised hearing similar to the ones given Iran-contra are in order.

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By PatrickHenry, September 13, 2009 at 7:09 am Link to this comment

The initial 9/11 “investigation” was 3mil with a increase of 12mil for a total of 15mil, it lasted 3 months.

I laugh when the Offical conspiracy theorists base their argument on the speculation provided to the public as a result of that shoddy investigation.

8 years and the facts are still stacking up.

http://southeastasianews.org/israeli_connections_to_911.html

As a mechanical project manager I look at staging and permits, knowing full well this sort of endeavor would require significant overtime work, staging and access to the asbestos coated steel to set the nanothermite charges.

Yes it did happen at the proper timeframe of this tragic event too much so to be another coincidence.

http://www.911blogger.com/node/19889

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By whole2th, September 13, 2009 at 6:47 am Link to this comment

ardee,

Being stubbornly closed minded to the irrefutable scientific proof of there
being a large quantity of nanothermite, an exotic explosive/incendiary, may
lead you to try to narrow the investigations to only why air defense systems
may have been in a ‘stand down’ condition.  But, I doubt this is your motive.  I
think your intentions are more insidious.

The reality is that we have been lied to about 9/11—in so many facets of what
really happened.

The irrefutable evidence of nanothermite makes a prima facie case proving
preparations of the buidlings with explosives.  WTC7’s destruction fits ten
characteristics of classic controlled demolition—and the video evidence from
several views of Seven World Trade Center makes a prima facie case that Seven
was a controlled demolition.

Both Pearl Harbor and the Kennedy assassination resulted in the assembly of
investigative commissions within two weeks.  It was over 14 months when
Bush/Cheney acquiesced to creating an investigation.  NIST, the agency in
charge of forensics and FEMA allowed hasty removal of the evidence—over
objections of forensics experts—and admit to not testing for explosives
residue.  The NIST computer modeling of the “collapse” fails to replicate the
conditions that would cause the complete destruction of the massive,
interlinked vertical core supports of both Twin Towers and fails to demonstrate
how a symmetrical, free-fall rate collapse of WTC7 occurs resulting from small
fires and facade damage.

You trolls, ardee, come out in a pack when good material is posted in any of
the many blogs.

That audio by Ed Asner is persuasively inviting to look at Architects and
Engineers for 9/11 Truth’s evidence—and support, as I have, with purchases
of their DVDs and make donations.

http://ae911truth.org/audio/Ed_Asner30sec.wav

http://ae911truth.org/audio/Ed_Asner60sec.wav

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By ardee, September 13, 2009 at 4:38 am Link to this comment

I realise that this is a waste of time, but attempts to bring reason to an issue are always impelling for me.

Whle2th , I suggest that your endlessly rehashed and completely untrue “facts” about the steel structure and the specific design of those Towers is a main reason why most folks refuse to take you guys seriously.

This stuff rings even more hollow when the post of freedem, September 12 at 7:48 pm # is considered. Calling people who put common sense and a need for fact before any willingness to jump off the deep end and yell “conspiracy”, as trolls weakens your repute and thus your case.

I do not subscribe to the idea that the buildings were dynamited, or that some ‘death ray’ was used to bring them down. I do, however, believe that a reopening of the investigations is in order if only to find out why these planes were allowed to continue off flight path for so long before the air force was involved. There may very well have been a conspiracy to allow the hijackers to complete their task, doubtful as that may seem,for political purpose.

But thats as far as I can go, sorry if that makes me a troll….I do love bridges ...

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By Truth.Will.Win, September 13, 2009 at 2:44 am Link to this comment

Charlie Sheen has stood up and listed twenty questions that need answering. He has called for a Presidential investigation into the events of 911. 

http://www.prisonplanet.com/twenty-minutes-with-the-president.html

He has further offered to publicly debate these issues on the main stream media with anyone claiming that they can debunk 911 truth theories.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yakn6QjkaNs

The response from the main stream media has been typical - just ignore the challenge and not report any of it, or in the few cases where it does get reported as on Fox with Bill O’Reilly and Geraldo Rivera, they simply resort to more of that puerile name calling and run and hide from the real debate.

Even truthdig appears to be shying away from the debate, though to be fair to Robert Sheer, he does ask some questions, unlike his counterpart at Huffington Post who has all but closed down all discussion of this topic on her website.

Come on America, rise up to Charlie Sheen’s challenge - if he really is a a kook, then a simple debate will reveal him to be just that.  What do you have to loose? 

Of course if Charlie is not a kook, and can stand up in a debate to challenge the official version of events, then surely it is time to really investigate all the events leading up to 911 and the US response to these attacks by invading two countries and at
the same time killing freedom in America.

So America, what are you afraid of in facing up to in Charlie Sheen’s challenge? The Truth?

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By whole2th, September 12, 2009 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment

Claims by the trolls here that there is no evidence to refute the official version
of 9/11 are deceptions…..lies.

On September 11, 2001, there occurred five events which, as far as we know,
are unique in world history. According to official accounts:

At 9:59 A.M., 110-story Two World Trade Center (the South Tower), having
been struck by United Airlines Flight 175 at 9:03 A.M., collapsed at near free
fall speed.

At 10:28 A.M., 110-story One World Trade Center (the North Tower), having
been struck by American Airlines Flight 11 at 8:47 A.M., collapsed at near free
fall speed.

The 110-story North and South Towers remained standing after being struck
by Boeing 767s. They collapsed – we’re told – due to fire. No steel frame tower
has collapsed due to fire, neither before 9/11 nor since 9/11.

At 9:38 A.M., American Airlines Flight 93, a Boeing 757, struck the Pentagon at
530 mph, and unlike other aircraft disasters, disappeared leaving no
identifiable fuselage, wings, or tail outside.

At 10:03 A.M., United Airlines Flight 93, a Boeing 757, crashed in a field in
Pennsylvania leaving a crater about the size of a large automobile, debris
scattered over a few miles, and unlike other aircraft disasters, only tiny pieces
“no larger than a phonebook” at the site of the crash.

At 5:20 P.M., 47-story Seven World Trade Center collapsed at near free fall
speed.  The BBC announced TWICE that Seven World Trade Center had already
collapsed–that “news” announcement beginning 23 minutes BEFORE the
collapse.  CNN and FOXNEWS affilliates also prematurely announced this
collapse.

Seven World Trade Center was not struck by a plane. It collapsed – we’re told –
due to fire. No steel frame tower has collapsed due to fire, neither before 9/11
nor since 9/11. On 9/11, three did.

An exotic explosive, nanothermite, has been found in five dust samples from
ground zero–and the forensics responsibilities for the 9/11 crime scene were
abandoned by the government agency NIST which admits to not testing for
explosives even though over 100 eyewitness transcripts indicated there were
explosions, even preceding the disintegration of the buildings, and at locations
distant from the plane crashes.

Rumsfeld is on record saying Flight 93 was “shot down over Pennsylvania”. 
Bush is on record saying that he saw the first plane hit the first tower on
television that day–even though the first videos of that weren’t broadcast until
the next day.  In a Vanity Fair article, Rumsfeld said the Pentagon was hit by a
plane and a missile.

“The biggest of lies is an accurate appraisal of the official account.  If National
Geographic is correct, 33% of Americans think that the US government had
something to do with 9/11.

Watch these YouTube titles:
Rumsfeld Flight 93
Bush Saw First Plane
South Tower Smoking Gun
wtc7
Oklahoma City Bombing Rare Footage
Flight 93 rare footage
Bush Outrageous Conspiracy
Obama Cairo 911

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By Ouroborus, September 12, 2009 at 7:20 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie, September 12 at 12:33 pm #
“Making up stunningly boring and repetitious conspiracy
theories and fables, assigning terrorist acts to
mysterious demonic forces, doesn’t solve them.  That
is, if you’re serious about solving them.  I think many
people prefer circuses to bread.”
=================================================
Ah, a measured voice of reason.

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By Ouroborus, September 12, 2009 at 6:37 pm Link to this comment

freedem, September 12 at 7:48 pm #

I’ll second ardee; nicely enumerated list of facts.
Welcome to the farside; where the facts matter not a
whit. Personally; I gave up trying to list the facts a
long time ago, as it’s fruitless. I do not normally
even comment anymore (about 9/11), but decided to step
in the manure and got the expected reaction and oh so
emotional it was. Nice try though, on your part.

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By Ouroborus, September 12, 2009 at 5:58 pm Link to this comment

ardee, September 12 at 3:07 pm #
Ouroborus, September 12 at 12:40 pm #

I must say your ardee impersonation is startlingly
good.
==============================================

Ah shucks, ya think?  smile

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By ardee, September 12, 2009 at 5:33 pm Link to this comment

freedem, September 12 at 7:48 pm

Everything you state is true, actually. I have posted articles from architectural journals explaining the very facts you enumerate, all to no avail.

Conspiracy Theorists have far too much fun to be distracted by obvious facts, dontcha know. But a good effort if wasted.

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By freedem, September 12, 2009 at 4:48 pm Link to this comment

Indeed, mention 9/11 and the weirdness comes out of the woodwork. It would not be so much of a problem if reality were followed to any degree. If any architect or engineer thinks that the Bombs in the towers thing is credible they must be software architects and not anything to do with actual large buildings.

To list the screamingly obvious in no particular order:

#1 If you have bombs you don’t need planes, if you have planes you don’t need bombs. One does not even need to get beyond that point to show absolute stupidity in thinking anyone would even run the risk of trying both. But to continue:

#2 Any Blacksmith can tell you that the thing that makes steel special is that you can work it like butter at temps way below the melting point.

#3 Aside from planes made almost entirely from aluminum, vast amounts of it were through out both the building structure, and office parts from staplers to partition walls and that melts at 700 degres F and can burst into flame in the right conditions, particularly high temp and pressure.

#4 To build the towers and get them that big and tall required a revolutionary concept, light (comparatively) steel supports in the center and an outer steel shell that was the exterior of the building. Everywhere they cut the weight to absolute minimum in order to build that tall in the first place.

#5 When they did that the buildings were a house of cards, they were the only buildings ever built that way, when pressures went way beyond design strength everything broke, each floor giving way as all the ones above hit. The difference is like laying a hammer on you finger and swinging it, big difference.

#6 The outer shell was as strong as existed so even though it broke on impact it still centered the fall and contained it to mostly its own footprint.

#7 The floors fell at the expected speed and slower than the debris outside. As the towers went down air was displaced and rushed in sucking in the air close by and below the fall line. Beyond that effect the debris clouds point down as much was in actual freefall dragging air and dust behind them.

#8 All that air had to go somewhere, as pressure built up, and a window broke it would rush out dragging dust with it, very little air got out that way.

#9 The biggest hole in the entire complex was the entrance to parking across the street from Building 7. A great deal of that compressed (and thus heated) air escaped there blasting through the front of Building 7 & starting an inferno there.

There are a great many questions unanswered but with the false ideas and fake science, everything about the incident is now problematic, like following footprints after a cattle stampede.

If I was an evil genius that had planned the incident, I would have created the “Truthers” just to make any real investigation an impossible laughingstock.

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By Anarcissie, September 12, 2009 at 4:39 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther:
‘Anarcisse- the reason it is important to get to the bottom of the 9/11-anthrax homicide, and the 1993 Trade Center explosion as well, is that the elements of the US power system that let it happen, or were complicit in pertetrating it, are ideologically insane. ...’

We already know that.  They are also morally deficient.  I have no doubt that they would kill, not three thousand, but three million, in their struggle for power and wealth, if they could get away with it.

However, if there is a conspiracy so powerful, so competent, so much in control, as to have carried out the attacks of 9/11 without leaving any material evidence behind, then you are not going to get to the bottom of anything they have done.  And if you looked like you could, you would simply be eliminated.  That’s just common sense.  The prudent policy would be to say and do nothing.

If, on the other hand, 9/11 was perpetrated by a bunch of Muslim fanatics in response to a hundred years of Anglo-American meddling in their countries, and was enabled and aggravated by gross incompetence, all of which has since been covered up by the media in its quest to heroize the likes of Bush and Giuliani, then something can be done.  The incompetence, chicanery and lying can be exposed, and the imperialism called into question.  I prefer a belief which leaves me the option of doing something to one in which I am helpless, especially if the second choice lacks any material evidence to support it.

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By Kesey Seven, September 12, 2009 at 4:30 pm Link to this comment

9/11 Truthers,

Okay, let’s suppose you’re right.  Why do you have infiltrate Realtime’s audience and disrupt Bill Mahrer’s show?  He didn’t plant the bombs.  Ah, because he disagrees with you.  Why do you send voluminous hate mail to Rolling Stone’s Matt Taibbi?  He didn’t plant the bombs either. He just disagrees with you. 

The fact that you are attacking progressives helps to create rift on the left, like you are doing here on this blog that generally supports the following points:

Current US foreign policy came out of the 1940s and 1950s, an incredibly racist time for America. That racism permeated everything, including our view of the Arab-Muslim-Persian world.  Subsequently we viewed their peoples as we did American Indians and African Americans—as subhuman. American foreign policy needs an overhaul.

Next point: We built a war economy, overthrew democracies and fought wars for the sake of corporations. It’s still going on. We need to stop it. 

Next point: We let our infrastructure crumble while we were doing it. We let our schools crumble. We let our health care system go to crap. We let our media be taken over by corporations. We let our food supply turn to crap. We wreaked havoc on the global ecosystem. We need to turn this country around. 

Next point:  Members of the Bush administration should at some point should be imprisoned for war crimes.  (But not Collin Powell, I like the man, sorry.) 

The above are consensus points that nearly everyone on the left—including people you so vehemently attack—agree on. 

So, you want to attack people and raise hell, go ahead. But go after the people you think are responsible, not the people who happen to disagree with you. 

Attacking people on the left who had nothing to do with what you believe happened makes it look like Karl Rove is calling your shots. You discredit yourselves. 

That said, I looked into some of your points, watched some videos, read some of the websites, which by the way have very high traffic and very high Google rankings, so you’re getting your word out there. No reason to attack Bill. You have a helluva lot more viewers than he does. 

Here’s where I agree: The site should have been treated as a crime scene, evidence should have been preserved, and much more investigating should have been done. 

It is weird that Building 7 was not hit by a plane, burned seven hours, and then collapsed. Keep investigating that. 

Here’s where I disagree:

Thermite. In the video of the Danish scientist, he uses thermite and nano-thermite interchangeably.  Thermite is used in welding.  Ever been to a construction site?  Tear down a wall and look at the trash behind the sheetrock.  You’ll be shocked and appalled at the crap lying around. I would urge you to ask: Was thermite used when welding the World Trade Center?  I would suspect it was, tons of it, and that scraps of it were behind the walls.

Controlled demolition of Bulding 7.  I watched the youtube videos comparing controlled demolitions with Bulding 7.

One problem:  The sound wasn’t on.  Ever heard a controlled demolition?  If you’re within a half mile of it when the sucker blows and you don’t know what’s coming, you’ll be cleaning your pants. Give me the audio of the Building 7 collapse and I’ll be convinced when I hear the explosion. 

Also in one of the controlled demolition videos a narrator comes on and speculates why Guiliani was not in his Building 7 command and control center. Uh, I dunno, maybe because the building had been on fire for seven hours when it collapsed! Don’t get me wrong I despise Guiliani, but come on.  At least present credible arguments. 

ValueJet Flight 592 crashed in the Florida Everglades, hardly nothing was found there, either. Why?  Jets are essentially pressurized beer cans filled with gasoline. Not much rebar in them.  Crash them at hundreds of miles per hour into a solid object such as the ground or the Pentagon, they vaporize.

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By prosefights, September 12, 2009 at 4:03 pm Link to this comment

09/11/2009 message delivered to NCUA

Friday September 11, 2009 09:42

Email delivery

http://www.prosefights.org/nmlegal/ncualove/walters.htm#director2

Ms Jane Walters
Regional Director, Region 5
National Credit Union Administration
1230 West Washington Street, Suite 301
Tempe, AZ 85281
Office (602) 302-6000
Fax (602) 302- 6024
E-mail: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Dear Ms Walters:

We have not yet received our two checks from NCUSIF for $11,018.00 for our prima facie fraud loss claim submitted to NCUA on Friday August 28, 2009.

...

Let’s relax and think about electricity production and peaceful settlement while listening to cool music.

http://www.radiojavan.com/

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By whole2th, September 12, 2009 at 3:45 pm Link to this comment

http://ae911truth.org/audio/Ed_Asner15sec.wav

http://ae911truth.org/audio/Ed_Asner25sec.wav

http://ae911truth.org/audio/Ed_Asner30sec_lowmusic.wav

http://ae911truth.org/audio/Ed_Asner30sec.wav

http://ae911truth.org/audio/Ed_Asner60sec.wav

At the Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth website are quite a number of
irrefutable scientific facts about 9/11 that prove the 9/11 Commission’s report
to be a farce and a coverup.

The courage of patriotic “truthers” will see us through this, as the truth of 9/11
is impossible to hide.  The cat is out of the bag.  The perpetrators left a trail—
and continue to identify themselves through the disinformation campaigns.

To you “dark workers” (trolls):  Keep it up.  The more you become abusive,
ridiculing and vulgar, the better it is for waking up the curiosity in those who
have yet to confront the details.

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By omniadeo, September 12, 2009 at 2:59 pm Link to this comment

Wanderer,

If you read my post, you will find that I don’t ask you to believe anything. I point you to a body of well researched evidence that a well connected CIA chief is at the center of a set of actions that deliberately kept info on known terrorists from O’Neill’s FBI unit. He was also central to letting OBL escape and to interfering with a productive interrogation in order to turn it into propaganda for the Iraq war based on torture. Much of that evidence lies in the reports of the press and the records of the 911 commission.

Which part of my evidence do you dispute?

In the case of the birthers, they were eventually proved wrong by conclusive evidence.

In the case of 911, the official explanation has been proven wrong over and over also. A case in point is the claim that the CIA didn’t share info because of “the Wall.” A review of this evidence makes it very plain that that was not the case. Some ELEMENTS of the CIA (others in the FBI HQ) acted to subvert protocol and procedure so as to avoid sharing info that would have unraveled the hijacker part of the plot. This is history. It is not a theory, but is demanded by a reasonable view of the evidence now in the public domain.

Do you disagree? If so, show me first that you understand and have reviewed this evidence. Then show me how it can be explained some other way. I do not believe you can. If you can, do. If not, spare me the hot air.

Moon landings and the birther controversy have nothing to do with the mountains of evidence on the K assassinations and 911.  At best, you display shoddy thinking skills here. At worst, you are an intentional obfuscator.

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By whole2th, September 12, 2009 at 2:44 pm Link to this comment

A ‘baby step’ at emotional acceptance that inside, treasonous elements of our
own government would kill innocent civilians in America to prosecute their
agendas for dominance is found by looking at the Oklahoma City bombing.  In
a way, the OK City bombing provides practice for The Big Event—9/11—in the
coordination of complicit mass media with treasonous higher-ups in the FBI,
CIA, Dept. of Defense, the courts and the Congress.

Watch the collection of news clips in the aftermath of the OK City bombing—
and try to reconcile the news clips with the official government version.  If you
have a discerning mind, you’ll be forced to conclude that the OK City story of
Tim McVeigh and a single truck bomb cannot be true.  (Youtube:  Oklahoma
City Bombing Rare Footage)

Detractors to the 9/11 inside job hypothesis here are chiefly of the troll type.

I’m still enjoying the screen name:  Trollstein.  Clever and really ‘in your face’
revealing of the true nature of this disinfo entity.

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By Folktruther, September 12, 2009 at 2:08 pm Link to this comment

Anarcisse- the reason it is important to get to the bottom of the 9/11-anthrax homicide, and the 1993 Trade Center explosion as well, is that the elements of the US power system that let it happen, or were complicit in pertetrating it, are ideologically insane.  The traditonal megalomania that the British historian Eric Hobsbawm says accompanies imperialism has slopped over into the mas murder urder of one’s own people.

And they are still powerful, and will do anything to keep from being exposed. The irrationality of the American truth consensus is largely the result of simple holistic truths that Americans are afraid to state. And so pretend that the 9/11 truthers arund the world attribute the destruction to ” mysterious demonic forces” rather than examine the evidence.

However it is not possisble for the American power structure to tell the truth about the matter. But an additional investigation can reveal evidence that can assist the 9/11 truthers.

But apparently the orignial public relations story sticks in people’s minds and is not amenable to change among the more backward.  Wanderer still believes that Oswald was the Lone Assassin even though the 1970’s offical congressional inquiry stated that there was probably another gunman on the grassy knoll.  and apparently half the US population still believe that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.  Evidence is of little value if the Faith in authority is strong enought.

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By Wanderer, September 12, 2009 at 1:53 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“So, if you have an open mind, I’m certain you will find the answer that explains why nanothermite was detected in four dust samples from ground zero.”

I’ve seen it. Nobody knows that ‘nanothermite’ even exists. And finding explosive dust in Manhattan, where there have been hundreds of demolitions, isn’t conclusive of anything. I’ve also seen evidence that thermite couldn’t burn through such heavy steel beams. So, no, that ‘evidence’ hasn’t changed my mind.

It’s conspiracy nuts like you who have the closed mind. I – unlike you - am keeping an open mind. If evidence is presented that is compelling and not so easily refutable I’d be more than happy to change my mind.

It’s funny how I get called ‘troll’ by the rightie wingnuts AND the lefty loons.

I must be living right.

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By whole2th, September 12, 2009 at 1:34 pm Link to this comment

Yes, the 911 Truth Movement discloses a vast conspiracy, much like John F.
Kennedy described in his speech to the National Press Club—and which Dwight
Eisenhower warned of.

The JFK Secret Society Speech is easily located on YouTube.

So, if you have an open mind, I’m certain you will find the answer that explains
why nanothermite was detected in four dust samples from ground zero.  You
can explain the controlled demolition of WTC7 and you can explain how a
crater no bigger than an automobile could represent where Flight 93 hit the
ground.

9/11 was an inside job—and those here who use ridicule rather than reason,
distraction rather than evidence-based argument, straw man argument rather
than directly engaging the evidnece—you are trolls, like Trollstein.

http://ae911truth.org is one of the best websites featuring evidence—any one
bit of which disproves the official myth of 9/11 as put forth by the 9/11
Commission.

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By Wanderer, September 12, 2009 at 1:15 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Folktruther & omniadeo:

I do keep an open mind, I just haven’t heard any compelling evidence to make me believe otherwise.

This is remarkably like the stuff I read from birthers. In fact, it’s identical to the stuff I’ve heard from birthers.

Let’s try that logic, shall we?

You’re telling that an incredibly complex operation to make it seem that four airliners were hijacked and flown into two different sites, and requiring hundreds of people, complete secrecy, and blunting investigations by all law enforcement agencies, was planned and carried out in less than nine months (if it took longer than that, the Clinton administration was involved, too).

You’re telling that of these hundreds of people who would have been involved, not one has had even a tiny pang of conscience in eight years and come forward, EVEN ANONYMOUSLY. Through all the media, all the attention the world gave to 9/11, all the investigations, they’ve managed to keep it secret.  Even with all the daily leaks in Washington about everything.

The media have been bullied into silence, even though this would be the story of the CENTURY for whoever broke it. 

I’ve watched the programs, I’ve seen the supposed evidence. Almost all of it can be pretty easily countered. None of it is remotely conclusive. Almost all is evidence of omission rather than commission.

It’s natural to believe ‘they must’ve known.’ I do believe they did know. But to go from ‘they must’ve known’ to ‘this was a planned operation’ is beyond logical.

Or, let me put it this way: Obama was born in Hawaii. Oswald shot Kennedy by himself. We landed on the moon. Nineteen terrorists got incredibly lucky on September 11th.

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By ardee, September 12, 2009 at 12:07 pm Link to this comment

Ouroborus, September 12 at 12:40 pm #

I must say your ardee impersonation is startlingly good.

I have had my differences with said poster to be sure, and he, like most of us I fear, holds his belief system close, and it is a bit too dear to his heart to be open to criticism of it.

But, when one agrees with much of another’s politics, and only differs on some points perhaps we can dwell on the similarities and try to ignore the differences. It is easier I think with one like FT than with many others here, would you at all agree?

So, how do you like my Night-Gaunt persona?

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By PatrickHenry, September 12, 2009 at 10:26 am Link to this comment

By Ouroborus, September 12 at 3:19 pm #

It just never fails; mention 9/11 (not 911) and the wackos come out of the walls, floors, cracks, and any other chasm/opening available.

And the wackos keep multipling exponentially, soon we will have another investigation like it or not.

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By 911truthdotorg, September 12, 2009 at 10:01 am Link to this comment

9/11 was an immense success for the military industrial complex who probably perpetrated it in the first place.

It was also a success for those who want(ed) to turn this country into a third world police state with 300 million economic slaves.

The official story of who did 9/11 is a fairy tale.

Who really did 9/11 will make it happen again, but much larger, at which point, this country will cease to exist.

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By Ouroborus, September 12, 2009 at 9:40 am Link to this comment

Ourborous- You are an ignornat asshole who parrots the
sleaze of the mainstream media.

And you’re a puffed up bag of excrement so full of
yourself you think your shit doesn’t smell. You prance
around on this site as though you own it and the other
posters defer to you like you’re actually important.
Get over yourself; you don’t own this site; I must have
hit a raw nerve to get such a rude, crass, ignorant
response from the great god of Truthdig, Folktruther.
wink

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By Anarcissie, September 12, 2009 at 9:33 am Link to this comment

whole2th:
’“It just never fails; mention 9/11 (not 911) and the
wackos come out of the walls, floors, cracks, and any
other chasm/opening available. It’s no wonder this
country can’t get it’s collective shit together to
fight the real problems.”

9/11 not a real problem?  Getting to the bottom of why the most sophisticated
systems of protection failed that day not a real problem? ...’

Actually, no, it’s not.  The systems of protection were not very sophisticated, and they assumed, incorrectly, that terrorists would not be willing to sacrifice their lives, which terrorists had often done in the past.  The most simple countermeasures, like locking the door to the pilot’s cabin of a commercial airplane when in flight, were not taken.  In another area, the large loss of life occasioned at the World Trade Center would not have occurred if the buildings had been built properly given their location.

We have always had terrorism and we are going to continue to have terrorism in the future.  We need to study terrorist action carefully in order to understand how to prevent it or deal with the aftermath of what we can’t prevent.  We will be mostly operating through ineffective bureaucrats and politicians.  Those are definitely problems. 

Making up stunningly boring and repetitious conspiracy theories and fables, assigning terrorist acts to mysterious demonic forces, doesn’t solve them.  That is, if you’re serious about solving them.  I think many people prefer circuses to bread.

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By Folktruther, September 12, 2009 at 9:07 am Link to this comment

Thanks for the info, Omniadeo.  It’s encouraging that they are getting to the point of naming mames.

I disagree, Robert, that Americans have NO control of Israeli agents, although obviously they get out of line.  It was said that the High Fivers were jailed for a few months and then deported with a bunch of other Mossads.  Whether true or not, I think that the American ruling class controls the Zionists rather than the reverse.  Petras, a gutsy and honest truther argues the reverse, but over time I have come to disagree with his analysis.

The basic reason is that the American ruling class who owns the money, media and management is predominatnly non-Jewish and united by money rather than ethnicity.  People like Mellon Scairn, Rockefellers, Bass family, Coors familiy, etc may support Zionism but are united by the need to make money.  So they use Zionists for their own purposes, just as they use religious fundamentalists.  Both are highly visible but the money and power is controlled elsewhere.

Ourborous- You are an ignornat asshole who parrots the sleaze of the mainstream media.

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By whole2th, September 12, 2009 at 8:59 am Link to this comment

“It just never fails; mention 9/11 (not 911) and the
wackos come out of the walls, floors, cracks, and any
other chasm/opening available. It’s no wonder this
country can’t get it’s collective shit together to
fight the real problems.”

9/11 not a real problem?  Getting to the bottom of why the most sophisticated
systems of protection failed that day not a real problem?

To the great chagrin of the trolls like “Trollstein” (fabulously revealing and bold
choice of screen name) and OUROBORUS (the snake swallowing its tail), the
leveraging of the 9/11 myths is mostly nullified by the vast proofs that 9/11
was orchestrated by Israeli Mossad, CIA, treasonous elements of FBI, complicit
NORAD leadership, with willing assistance in the coverup by mass media
moguls and CFR editors/“reporters”.

It must be frustrating not to be able to fully leverage the shock and awe of
9/11 without opening discussion forums to posting of more, and more
evidence which reveals 9/11 to be a big lie—a “false flag” event designed by
those who purport to be making us safer.

So, when the trolls like Trollstein spew their ridicule and distraction, we in the
9/11 truth movement know we are hitting the nail on the head—that the truth
is getting to the real perpetrators of 9/11.

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By Anarcissie, September 12, 2009 at 8:48 am Link to this comment

freedem:
‘Objectively the 9/11 attacks were a failure….’

I wouldn’t say that.  The purpose of terrorist attacks is usually theater, rather than the gain of strategic advantage.  As theater, the attacks succeeded pretty well.  One might compare them with the assassination of the Archduke Ferdinand in 1914—they served to provoke the target country into a war which was greatly to its disadvantage, or rather, to give those in the target country who wanted to have a war an excuse to start one, thereby leading to their ruin.  However, there are differences.  Whereas Austria could not get out of World War 1 once it started, the U.S. is not yet committed to an apocalyptic confrontation with the Muslim world.  The U.S. ruling class is, of course, ready to go to Hell in whatever handbasket is available, but the people, in their wisdom, are not sure they want to get aboard.  The same seems to be true of the other necessary party—hence the need to rig the elections in Iran.

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By Ouroborus, September 12, 2009 at 8:19 am Link to this comment

It just never fails; mention 9/11 (not 911) and the
wackos come out of the walls, floors, cracks, and any
other chasm/opening available. It’s no wonder this
country can’t get it’s collective shit together to
fight the real problems.

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By Robert, September 12, 2009 at 7:41 am Link to this comment

High-Fivers and Art Student Spies

What Did Israel Know in Advance of the 9/11 Attacks?

By CHRISTOPHER KETCHAM

“03/07/07 “Counterpunch”——On the afternoon of September 11, 2001, an FBI bulletin known as a BOLO ­- “be on lookout”—was issued with regard to three suspicious men who that morning were seen leaving the New Jersey waterfront minutes after the first plane hit World Trade Center 1. Law enforcement officers across the New York-New Jersey area were warned in the radio dispatch to watch for a “vehicle possibly related to New York terrorist attack”:

  White, 2000 Chevrolet van with ‘Urban Moving Systems’ sign on back seen at Liberty State Park, Jersey City, NJ, at the time of first impact of jetliner into World Trade Center Three individuals with van were seen celebrating after initial impact and subsequent explosion. FBI Newark Field Office requests that, if the van is located, hold for prints and detain individuals.

At 3:56 p.m., twenty-five minutes after the issuance of the FBI BOLO, officers with the East Rutherford Police Department stopped the commercial moving van through a trace on the plates. According to the police report, Officer Scott DeCarlo and Sgt. Dennis Rivelli approached the stopped van, demanding that the driver exit the vehicle. The driver, 23-year-old Sivan Kurzberg, refused and “was asked several more times [but] appeared to be fumbling with a black leather fanny pouch type of bag”. With guns drawn, the police then “physically removed” Kurzberg, while four other men ­- two more men had apparently joined the group since the morning ­- were also removed from the van, handcuffed, placed on the grass median and read their Miranda rights.

They had not been told the reasons for their arrest. Yet, according to DeCarlo’s report, “this officer was told without question by the driver [Sivan Kurzberg],‘We are Israeli. We are not your problem.Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.’” Another of the five Israelis, again without prompting, told Officer DeCarlo ­- falsely ­- that “we were on the West Side Highway in New York City during the incident”. From inside the vehicle the officers, who were quickly joined by agents from the FBI, retrieved multiple passports and $4,700 in cash stuffed in a sock. According to New Jersey’s Bergen Record, which on September 12 reported the arrest of the five Israelis, an investigator high up in the Bergen County law enforcement hierarchy stated that officers had also discovered in the vehicle “maps of the city with certain places highlighted. It looked like they’re hooked in with this”, the source told the Record, referring to the 9/11 attacks. “It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park.”“

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17260.htm

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By Robert, September 12, 2009 at 7:39 am Link to this comment

Part II

“The five men were indeed Israeli citizens. They claimed to be in the country working as movers for Urban Moving Systems Inc., which maintained a warehouse and office in Weehawken, New Jersey. They were held for 71 days in a federal detention center in Brooklyn, New York, during which time they were repeatedly interrogated by FBI and CIA counterterrorism teams, who referred to the men as the “high-fivers” for their celebratory behavior on the New Jersey waterfront. Some were placed in solitary confinement for at least forty days; some were given as many as seven liedetector tests. One of the Israelis, Paul Kurzberg, brother of Sivan, refused to take a lie-detector test for ten weeks. Then he failed it.

Meanwhile, two days after the men were picked up, the owner of Urban Moving Systems, Dominik Suter, a 31- year-old Israeli national, abandoned his business and fled the United States for Israel. Suter’s departure was abrupt, leaving behind coffee cups, sandwiches, cell phones and computers strewn on office tables and thousands of dollars of goods in storage. Suter was later placed on the same FBI suspect list as 9/11 lead hijacker Mohammed Atta and other hijackers and suspected al-Qaeda sympathizers, suggesting that U.S. authorities felt Suter may have known something about the attacks. The suspicion, as the investigation unfolded, was that the men working for Urban Moving Systems were spies. Who exactly was handling them, and who or what they were targeting, was as yet uncertain.”

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17260.htm

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By Robert, September 12, 2009 at 7:35 am Link to this comment

By Folktruther, September 12 at 9:38 am #

“The US certainly used Mossad Arabic speakers to infiltrate Muslims, and Mossad agents certqainly knew that 9/11 was going to happen, since they had gathered in the park to take pictures and celebrate it, but it appears that Americans were contolling the Israelis, not the reverse.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Folktruther...the Americans have NO control over the Israelis, and especially, the Israeli Mossad. As you know, the Mossad’s motto is “By way of deception, Thou shall do war”.

All the jailed Israelis were released by the Americans…Michael Chertoff was United States Secretary of Homeland Security, under George W. Bush, and he most likely facilitated the release of the Israeli Mossad agents to fly back to Israel.

If these agents were Arabs/Moslems…would they have been released so quickly under the cover of our Zionist controlled US News Media?

A lot of our spineless American officially fear Israel’s Mossad blackmail & other well known tactics.

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By omniadeo, September 12, 2009 at 7:34 am Link to this comment

For those who wish to drill a little deeper into Folktruther’s “American intelligence officals blocking the investigations of less senior agents” please see this brilliant piece of new 911 research by Kevin Fenton.

http://www.911blogger.com/node/21228

He has identified the NAME of the career CIA officer, Richard Blee (with a very interesting CIA family background, his father David was a known player in the CIA power wars of the late 20th century). Richard Blee was clearly most likely responsible for the efforts to keep the FBI team of John O’Neill from getting critical law enforcement info on OBL and some of the key 911 “hijackers” in time to prevent 911. He also was clearly a part of the effort to let OBL escape.

To understand the full import of this find, I recommend re-reading the section of the 911 Timeline devoted to Almihdhar and Alhazmi, the 911 “hijackers” who were known, tracked and photographed by the CIA in Malaysia at a meeting which was known to involve plans for Bojinka and Cole type operations. They were then allowed to live openly in San Diego undisturbed while obviously remaining involved with other “AQ” handlers.

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a80s90smiddleclass#a80s90smiddleclass

The CIA’s Alec Station and certain Near Eastern CIA stations did not just “drop the ball” here. They actively punted the ball in the wrong direction to elude both the FBI and their own hierarchy.

Richard Blee can also be traced to the strong push in the CIA for torture, including an insistance that the FBI(who was getting good intelligence from a prisoner named Al-Libi with traditional law enforcement rapport building techniques) stop interrogating him so the CIA could fly him to Egypt where he was tortured into making an AQ-Iraq connection, which was used as intelligence by Powell in the address to the UN justifying the Iraq war.

That connection was later proved bogus—the offspring of torture, not truth.

Mr. Blee has a long CIA resume with connections in all the right countries and an especially interesting connection to Cofer Black, another longtime spook bureaucrat who is also a Blackwater VP.

While Blee and Black were preventing the FBI from getting the facts on AQ in the US, they were also the CIA insiders who “warned” Rice of impending attacks 7/01, though they said they could not be predicted or prevented in any detail, without mentioning that they had photos of and connections to probable perpetrators in the US.

“Conspiracy theorists” like myself (I embrace the term in the spirit in which some blacks embrace “nigger”, and some gays embrace “queer.”) are often challenged by the question, “Who is the ‘they’ you refer to?”

Mr. Fenton, you are helping us answer that question. Hats off to you, sir.

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By Folktruther, September 12, 2009 at 6:38 am Link to this comment

It isn’t true, Robert, that elements in the Americ an intelligence agencies had no interest in being involved in the 9/11-anthrax homicide. The US certainly used Mossad Arabic speakers to infiltrate Muslims, and Mossad agents certqainly knew that 9/11 was going to happen, since they had gathered in the park to take pictures and celebrate it, but it appears that Americans were contolling the Israelis, not the reverse.  Since it was American intelligence officals blocking the investigations of less senior agents.

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By ardee, September 12, 2009 at 6:27 am Link to this comment

Folktruther, September 11 at 11:04 pm

If you can hear me up there on that high horse…...

Of course those buildings were not a random target, nor was the Pentagon. Those innocents to which you refer represented, to the third world people who killed themselves and 3000 others, the bondage of feudalism. The Pentagon is the military arm that enforces the will of the mega corporations that steal the natural resources of much of the world.

Why do you nit pick this way? I do not seek to insult those who died,only to bring a bit of reason and rationale to the discussion. This nation of ours lives in an artificially inflated luxury that comes with a terrible price world wide. That attack was a reaction and rejection of this sort of cupidity and stupidity.

Sadly, or quite possibly purposely,  the events of 9/11 have brought an increased rigidity of thought, a flag waving mentality that avoids seeing the truth of why we are attacked, vilified and hated. We are losing our guaranteed rights, we are losing a healthy economy and we are losing the so-called ‘war on terror’.

Yet all you can do is make a silly comment like that, shame on you.

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By Robert, September 12, 2009 at 4:30 am Link to this comment

Under The Radar Media

“Evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It’s classified information.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Click on link to watch short video of Carl Cameron & Britt Hume reporting on 9/11 from FOX NEWS back in September, 2001. Their report(s) has vanished from FOX NEWS website/archives:


http://undertheradarmedia.wordpress.com/2009/09/11/evidence-linking-these-israelis-to-911-is-classified-i-cannot-tell-you-about-evidence-that-has-been-gathered-its-classified-information/

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By Tony Wicher, September 12, 2009 at 2:17 am Link to this comment

Re Kesey Seven, September 11 at 10:37 pm #

Kesey,

I find your post intriguing. I read “Against All Enemies” a few years ago. I haven’t read “Rise of the Vulcans” but maybe I should. I myself am a dedicated member of the 9-11 truth movement. The reason I am dedicated is that I think I’m a good judge of science, and the physical evidence and reasoning that can be found at the Architects and Engineers for 9-11 Truth and related websites is good science, in my judgment, whereas the efforts of defenders of the government story to defend it and to “debunk” the science presented at ae911truth.org are, to me, obviously bad science, a fabrication and a cover-up. The ubiquitous presence of nanothermite in the WTC dust is an established fact.

So all I would like Richard Clarke, or you, to tell me is how Clarke’s attribution of 9-11 to pure incompetence in the Bush Administration accounts for the presence of that nanothermite. Unfortunately, for most people, scientific truth is of little consequence compared with public opinion. ‘Twas ever thus. But we in the 9-11 truth movement are going to hang in there, like Galileo, until the world finally comes around.

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By Tony Wicher, September 12, 2009 at 1:25 am Link to this comment

Re Robert, September 12 at 1:42 am

Robert,

The physical evidence presented at the website of Architects and Engineers for 9-11 Truth, ae911truth.org, conclusively establishes that the three WTC buildings were brought down by high-tech explosives particularly nanothermite. These explosives were not manufactured or placed in the buildings by Islamic fundamentalists. A clear picture of the perpetrators has not yet emerged, and may not do so unless the U.S. government is compelled to have a real investigation into 9-11 with full legal power. Here is my take: what we are dealing with is an international criminal syndicate composed of diverse elements, including defense contractors, U.S., British, Saudi, Pakistani and Israeli intelligence agencies, organized crime, drug traffickers and arms dealers. All these groups benefitted from 9-11. There is a covert network of relationships between them and a chain of command that has nothing to do with the national interest of any country, but everything to do with an agenda endless war and aggrandizement of power and wealth. At this time, as far as I can tell, the top of the syndicate is George H.W. “Poppy” Bush, head of the Bush crime family. Poppy has been involved in every covert activity since World War II, including the Kennedy assassination.

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