ardee:

Far more moral and decent than the yahoos on this site who advocate killing Bush and Cheney and hanging people with money.

Show me one (serious, not sarcastic, or parodic) comment I have made on Truthdig which shows my immorality or indecency.

I usually look forward to your posts because you are generally more grounded in reality than most of the usual suspects. I thought you were better than that.

By DMFD, August 27 at 1:04 pm #

Hey ardee, I’m really not the cold hearted bastard you think I am.

How, I wonder, is one to judge such as this:

“ I would bet 95% of you that are whining about torture and what bad things happened to the terrorists in Gitmo would have no problem with it if it saved your own ass.

I am prepared to say you are not a ‘bastard’ as your response to me was certainly civil , but coldhearted does seem appropriate, sorry.

It is not enough, I think, to “stick it out”, one must demand the kind of national policies and actions we the people deserve. The use of torture, to mention only one such misguided action, is not only a terrible way to gain intelligence ( proven many times despite that awful excuse for entertainment, ‘24’), but it brands us with respect to world opinion, endangers our troops if captured and MUST be ended with trial and convictions where applicable.

Hey ardee, I’m really not the cold hearted bastard you think I am.  America, I’ll never leave it.  Good or bad it’s mine and I’m going to stick it out.  Sometimes I get a little frustrated at reading posters on this site.  Alot of the folks on here just bitch to hear (read) themselves bitching. Hardly any of them with exception to yourself seem to offer any ideas on how to fix the problem.  So, sorry if I came off a little crass.  No offense to posters like yourself whom are offering ideas.

Peace

rfidler, August 25 at 6:21 pm

The real pity here may be that you actually believe yourself a moral and decent person.

Ya, folks… watch this one “America, love it or leave it.”

“Love” is a living thing… you either nurture it with truth, trust, and open communication, or IT WILL DIE.

Where is the “truth,” “trust,” or “open communication” amongst Americans these days?

NOTHING is forever.

OMG!!

I’m looking at that photo, and, like, I’m ready to, like, puke or something!

Can you imagine having your son or brother, or sig other being captured by the Taliban and, like, having to stand on boxes and actually grab their knees? Bent over?? In their underwear??!!!

Where is our sense of decency?

Seriously,DMFD, August 25 at 4:49 pm # , you are making a dramatic assumption;  that the rest of us are as cruel and heartless as are you, we are, by and large,NOT. Also, if one considers oneself patriotic then the way America stands exposed as just another despotic torture nation should bother a real patriot.

Further I find you not representative of what my nation stands for , not by a long shot. So, in mimicry of your own political ideology, America, love it or leave it.

Seriously?  Open your eyes “sheeple”.  This is just another distraction to take your eyes off of O’s healthcare debacle.  I would bet 95% of you that are whining about torture and what bad things happened to the terrorists in Gitmo would have no problem with it if it saved your own ass. 
Anyway, once the healthcare thing gets back to the way O wants it then this will blow over and be forgotten until the next time O needs a distraction.

Peace

The photo shows TORTURE. There is no doubt about it.

Just as there’s no doubt that we, the people, will NEVER know what is being done in our name.

Why? Because we, the people, have completely lost effective control of our government and its agencies. They do exactly as they please and lie through their teeth to everyone about it. They have our money and enough weaponry to fight a war. We have nothing but a few passing seconds of soundbite.

We, the people, are simply an intermittent annoyance easily dealt with… just ignore our “outrage” and within 24 hours, our collective ADD will have us chasing after the antics of some “Britanny” or other.

“Civilization” is an ideological/institutional/electro-mechanical meat-grinder now gone “global” in its machinations.  “Morality” is a make-believe notion invented and propagated to keep “the meat” from wising-up to their predicament in-time to actually DO anything about it.

Few if any of Eugene Robinson’s “we” here really want to know anything about this “torture” blot on america’s escutcheon….only one of many even much worse.  Knowledge, just like “ownership,” is absolutely nothing except responsibility.  On-the-record, that his hardly the long suit of theamericanpeople.

It’s all ‘moot’ now, anyhow.  This thing is going to its pre-destined dead-end.  Anyone here not wanting to be taken along for the-ride better get together in The Tiyoshpaye Way….a-s-a-p.  Take it from your faithful Indian guide.

HokaHey!

“There are those who argue that such prosecutions would destroy the CIA’s morale. But giving interrogators and jailers a “just following orders” free pass is unfair to those in the chain of command who knew these alleged practices were wrong and tried to prevent or halt them. Waterboarding, to cite perhaps the most flagrant abuse, has been prosecuted by the U.S. government as a war crime. This history cannot have been unknown to all CIA employees and contractors.”

The unredacted portions of the CIA IG report clearly show that multiple CIA employees had exactly this kind of knowledge—but they went along with it anyway. What’s been left unsaid (or is perhaps still redacted) is what lawyers in the CIA’s Office of General Counsel had to say when Mr. Addington and other political operatives acting on Bush’s behalf told the CIA to get with the torture program. What did Mr. Tenet say? He clearly had no moral or legal qualms, otherwise he would’ve resigned.

On the “you’ll hurt their morale” canard:  if the CIA can’t handle legitimate, probing Congressional and legal scrutiny, how the hell can they protect us from al Qaeda?

And John Brennan? The man at the NCTC who was overseeing the production of the reporting derived from torture? Oh yeah—he’s been named the point man for the new inter-agency interrogation group that is supposed to keep torture off the table. Kafka-esque doesn’t begin to describe the current state of affairs in Obamaland.

“I’m under no illusion that George W. Bush or Dick Cheney is actually going to be prosecuted by the Justice Department.”

Eugene, you have platforms—at the Post and on Olbermann’s program—to call for exactly that kind of prosecution, if Durham’s initial inquiry shows cause for doing so. Please consider making such a call a regular part of your column and commentary on this topic.

scipiotheelder.blogspot.com

Tom Degan - Oh they figured it out alright, they just needed to torture somebody, anybody to ‘get-even’ for 9/11.  (Typical behavior of the bully/chicken shit.)

Morgan1 - You probably recall that when questioned about torture years ago, Cheney came right out and said, “Some times you have to work the dark side.” In the ‘real’ world - unlike the political world - admitting a crime normally leads to an indictment, doesn’t it?

Frankly, Obama’s seeming reluctance to get into this whole issue is probably because once it starts it’s not likely to stop at CIA etc. operatives or even Bush/Cheney but keep right on going into Congress and House members who were guilty of sanctioning the practices by not stopping them.

Of course, I’m all for leaving no stone unturned.  Nothing like a good thorough cleaning to get rid of vermin and roaches who’ve been hiding in dark corners for far too long.

The appointment of a ‘torture prosecutor’ is simply political theater, to be used in Obama’s soaring rhetoric.  Obama is CONTINUING the torture of Bush; how can he prosecute Bushites for it.  Torture is essential to subdue the poppulations occuried by the War on Terrorism.  any fighter against the occupation being classified as a Terrorist.

Eugene, your bosses should be punished for “doing what wasn’t in our name” as well. The Post should, and does, and did, have eye rolling credibility. Essentially owned by Big Defense Inc, the Post sleazily embraced violence, only to out do themselves this year by attempting to profit in Big Health’s war on the US.
The Post FULLY SUPPORTED aggressive military actions in Afghanistan and Iraq. Think about it, if 1150 15th hadn’t published full approval of a murderously destructive oil grab, we wouldn’t need to discuss the creative ways our Government destroyed people.

Mr. Robinson, I don’t know where you have been hiding these last few months, but ample evidence has already come to light (And Cheney openly admitted embracing torture and greenlighting it)that the orders come from the WH and worked their way down the entire chain of command. It has been reported the WH viewed torture photographs, listened to interrogation tapes and viewed videos as well. It has been reported Bush laughed with delight at the “detainee” (POW)being tortured, but then he has a record of being a sadist himself. If only a portion of what has been reported is true, the real truth is the orders originated with Cheney and Bush and ample documents show laws being broken from the top down. Followings orders is no excuse. I consider Obama complicit in covering up war crimes and is a criminal himself. We cannot move on until ALL have been brought to justice. Oh, and for the record, torture is still on-going at Bagram as well as other US holding facilities so nothing has changed.

ChaoticGood, August 25 at 4:18 am

I agree, in part , with your well posed response.

I would differ in that your definition of the “left” in American politics as “timid”. Splintered certainly, unable to work together , absolutely, refusing to put aside small differences to achieve common goals , without question.

There is very little of a true left in America frankly, but those that do exist face long odds, freakishly long in fact, but do so with no timidity. Their silence is due to the control of the press rather than the cowardice you imply.

There are certainly things worth dying to achieve, honor is a questionable inclusion I fear, and in need of interpretation.  Love of country, protection of the downtrodden, support for the disenfranchised, great principles are all “honorable” and worth the ultimate sacrifice, there are more such to be added to the list. Perhaps this is what you meant.

What’s the use of responsibility, accountability, integrity, justice and morality, if every instance of barbaric violation of it is swept under the carpet?
  What do we need courts for?
  Let’s just get past this and move on.
Seems the contemptible yet servile Obama has a “hands off” policy everytime he is required to do his job.

Bush began a war of aggression—the primary indictment of the defendants at Nuremberg.

Bush began that war with lies.  If the truth is something—a relationship with reality—then lies are nothing.  Thousands of American kids and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died for NOTHING.

The Bush cabal is guilty of much more than mere torture, bad as that is.  Were we a nation of laws, as they bleat at us, a few hundred would have hanged by now.  As it is, I see little reason for average Americans to obey any law which is convenient for them to break.

“I’m under no illusion that George W. Bush or Dick
Cheney is actually going to be prosecuted by the
Justice Department. But I want to know—and I believe
the nation needs to know—the full, unvarnished truth
of what they and others did in our name. It’s
probable that painful scrutiny and lasting disgrace
will be the only sanctions that Bush and Cheney ever
face. But history demands at least that much.”

Eugene Robinson

Too many people don’t want to know; denial is so much
easier, unless one has a conscience and the moral
rudder to know right from wrong. America still has
the temerity to act like it’s somehow justified in
doing these horrendous crimes but the rest of the
world be damned for the very same crimes.
Unfortunately America will never reclaim the mantel
of moral authority in this world, unless it faces up
to it’s own egregious behaviour. I do not remain
hopeful justice will be served when even the
president himself sees no such necessity.

I cannot even begin to “hope” that America will come to its senses and remember its “Civics” lessons.  At least with an investigation, some people who have forgotten that America is not about public safety.

The “cowardice” of the right is matched by the “timidity” of the left. This deep misunderstanding of America is obvious.  Everyone says that the “highest” duty of the President is to keep Americans safe. 

IT IS NOT THE HIGHEST DUTY !!!

Safety of Americans is not even mentioned in the Presidents oath of office.

Protection of the Constitution is the Presidents highest duty. NOT KEEPING US SAFE !!!!

Cowardice has led us to torture and compromise our values because we are afraid of the Islamic “Boogeyman”.  BAH, Humbug, Balderdash.  A pox on your fearmongering and on your convenient moralities which allow barbarism in the name of expediency.  No Honor is left for the cowards.

What we are left with are photos of American decline in Abu Ghraib.

Only in asserting that nobody is above the Law, can we hope to reclaim our honor.  There are some things worth dying for and honor is one of them.