ceanf, September 16 at 12:21 pm #

You question the veracity of the author because he fails to add footnotes, yet you throw numbers around sans veriufication as well…who’s zoomin’ who?

Remember Ceanf, their profits come from not paying out. The numbers are horrible with double digit dumps when people need them most and find out their insurance company lied. Yes they are evil when their profit is put before our very lives. That is no exaggeration.

Don’t forget that one thing that you can be sure that the “public option” will do is to reimburse the insurance companies or pay outright the costs from tax money for those of us who can’t afford it in the first place.

Even though it is a win/win for those insurance companies they still don’t like change. Their deal is “sweet” right now so the status quo is better. We shall see how things shake out once we have one actual bill to look at.

However, the prices of the shares for health insurance companies went up 1 to 4 percent after Obama’s speech. 
And here’s why.  The insurance companies will have to accept anyone despite any pre-existing conditions and they cannot deny coverage for any treatment.  Sounds tough.  But wait. 
What the insurance companies will do is take out a life insurance policy on each claimant who has a pre-existing and the ones who have major medical (read costly) problems.  I wouldn’t be surprised if the life insurance policies are written bu AIG.
Next, Wall Street will bundle those policies and sell them as some sort of derivative. 
It will be another boon to investors.  Imagine, patients dying on a regular basis and paying off in life insurance to the tune of a million dollars or more.

(Wall Street is now buying life insurance policies from the elderly and doing just that.)

The premium payment from the new members who will be forced into buying insurance and the payoff from the dead will more than make up for the lost money that will go into covering pre-existing conditions and catastrphic illness.

If that moves too slowly, they have the AMA and the drug companies.  They’re both pushing pills that will shorten a person’s life.  I have more than a few friends who’ve gone under medical care for high blood pressure and then have ballooned up to the point where they looked like stuffed pigs. Then, they had massive heart attacks and died on the floor of their homes.

It’ll all work out very nice for them, the makers and shakers.  You see, if my friends were representative of the numbers they are trying to diminish, they had one thing in common, they were all past their prime and no longer productive members of society.

When the capo di tutti capi called a sit down of all the familes to explain what he arranged with Wall Street, you could almost see the wink and the nod to the members of the families gathered there.

M.B.S.S., September 9 at 12:28 pm

Speaking of missing, where is your conscience these days. You posted an agreement with Folktruthers assertion that NPR does not make use of the word “torture”, did you not?

Here it is again :
Elisa, I’m afraid truthdigger 3 is right about public radio.  They do not for example call what the US does to prisoners as ‘torture.’

Your response:

folktruther is quite right about NPR and torture.  check out the controversy over @ salon:

SO, the upshot is that you both are wrong, as two and a half minutes of research proved:

http://www.npr.org/search/index.php?searchinput=torture

Showing 1 - 10 of about 6,770 results
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In response you post some smarmy and childish comment, off topic as well.

“for someone so up to date on the internets you sure seem to miss alot.”

Firstly , its internet, no ‘s’ , only Bush used that phrase, interestingly enough…..Secondly, I seek adult discussion, if you are incapable of supplying such just ignore me…..or prepare for response in kind.

ardee:

Last week, NPR Ombudsman Alicia Shepard caused a minor uproar after responding to angry emails from listeners over NPR’s use of the phrase “enhanced interrogation techniques” to describe treatment of terrorism suspects under the Bush Administration. Shepard talks about NPR’s policy and her own opinion on the use of the word “torture.”

for someone so up to date on the internets you sure seem to miss alot.

http://www.onthemedia.org/transcripts/2009/06/26/02

For Folktruther and M.B.S.S.

It is a simple thing to search the validity of ones opinion on this internet toy of ours.

Go to NPR.ORG, use their search function, type in torture and find this:

http://www.npr.org/search/index.php?searchinput=torture

Showing 1 - 10 of about 6,770 results
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  1.
    ACLU Lawyer Discusses Torture Documents
    ... ACLU Lawyer Discusses Torture Documents. September 1, 2009. Listen to the Story. All Things Considered. [4 min 54 sec ...
    (September 01, 2009)
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112447191
  2.
    Harsh Interrogation Techniques or Torture? - NPR Ombudsman Blog ...
    ... Harsh Interrogation Techniques or Torture? 10:37. June 21, 2009. comments. byline goes here. ... “That’s what the debate is about—what constitutes torture? ...
    (June 21, 2009)
    http://www.npr.org/ombudsman/2009/06/harsh_interrogation_techniques.html
  3.
    UK chief says spies not complicit in torture
    ... UK chief says spies not complicit in torture. ... When asked about torture, Scarlett said: “No torture, and there is no complicity with torture.”. ...
    (August 10, 2009)
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111738732
  4.
    The Nation: Holder Locks Into The Torture Issue
    ... Back in Washington, however, Attorney General Eric Holder was poised to appoint a prosecutor to investigate alleged torture during the Bush administration. ...
    (August 25, 2009)
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112197698
  5.
    CIA Director Leon Panetta Tells Agency Torture Revelations Are ’ ...
    ... CIA Director Leon Panetta Tells Agency Torture Revelations Are ‘Old Story’. 11:29. August 24, 2009. comments. byline goes here. CIA Director ...
    (August 24, 2009)
    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2009/08/cia_director_panetta_tells_age.html
  6.
    The Torture Debate Is Not Yet Over
    “We need a policy on torture,” Talk of the Nation news analyst Ted Koppel says. ... The Torture Debate Is Not Yet Over. by Ted Koppel. ...
    (May 11, 2009)
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104023978
  7.
    Torture Issues Likely To Linger
    The release of so-called torture memos and the political aftermath suggest that the issue won’t go away anytime soon, says NPR Senior News Analyst Daniel Schorr ...
    (April 30, 2009)
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103673545
  8.
    Torture Debate Ties Washington In Partisan Knots
    ... Torture Debate Ties Washington In Partisan Knots. by Liz Halloran. ... But it remains all about who controls the torture narrative, says NYU’s Greenberg. ...
    (May 20, 2009)
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104340314
  9.
    Obama, Cheney Face Off On Torture
    ... Obama, Cheney Face Off On Torture. by Liz Halloran. Enlarge Charles Dharapak/ Saul Loeb/AP/AFP/Getty Images ... ON THE RELEASE OF TORTURE MEMOS. ...
    (May 21, 2009)
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104391451
  10.
    In Torture Memo Furor, Rizzo’s Name Is At The Top
    All four of the recently released Justice Department torture memos were sent to one man: John Rizzo. ... In Torture Memo Furor, Rizzo’s Name Is At The Top. ...
    (April 29, 2009)
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103590884

Hmmm sixty seven hundred references to torture…where’s the beef,Clara?

elisalouisa and Night Guant—Yes, it is our obligation to speak out for people who cannot be heard and not allow a medical industrial complex bill to be passed so that the Dems can have a rose garden signing ceremony!

I saw some of that at the Town Hall mtgs on c-span—just disgusting.

The rationing is happening now , but it is just based on financial status. Middle class think that it wont happen to them, so , many dont care. But, it will.

If the industry continues , unabated, there will come a time when only the most elite can afford anything but untested swine flu vaccines!

To think that private death insurance will “go out of business” in a country so focused on “I am rich, I deserve it, you dont” is just ridiculous. You can pretty much BUY whatever you want in this country—anyplace , anytime, if you are rich and so inclined.

Let these drs who dont wish to fulfill their Hippocratic oath go treat people like Cheney for profit.

Night-gaunt:They don’t like the infirm and want to save money by letting them
die. Terrible and it will come back to bite us if we aren’t careful.
**************************
That is happening now Night-Gaunt, thank you for caring. The more elderly on Medicare must now know medical procedure or proper diagnosis to receive care. Primary care physicians give minimal exams at best and expect the patient to know when a medical problem exists and insist for a specialist in that field. Physicians can read their patients and know how to handle them so they will not request more health care. Also know how to steer them home after a hospital stay rather than a Medicare provided nursing home for one or two weeks. Most of the more elderly do not know this is going on. This is a definite change from a few years back.Of course, this will be denied and it may not exist in all parts of the country at least for the time being. They are already “cost cutting” only it is being done coverly.
There were many advantages in Hilary becoming Secretary of State a big one being that she is not in the Senate to fight for Health Care. If you really look at the facts and not be swept away by Obama’s words, there was never any
intention to pass a Health Care Bill that provided just that.

How about the woman in a wheel chair with two fatal autoimmune diseases and the few, vocal others could do was boo and shout at her to ask the question. No love, no care, no empathy. I have seen such or read bout such attitudes in many other countries & times. They don’t like the infirm and want to save money by letting them die. Terrible and it will come back to bite us if we aren’t careful.

Obama is doing that too if he lets pass a health bill that really doesn’t help the people but lines the pockets of the health care industry. That would be a crime against humanity, rather like our present death care system.

Al that being said, the fricking rednecks showing up screaming and shouting at pediatricians and old men at Town Hall’s today ought to be put out of their misery and made to stf up!!

Gawd!! How internationally humiliating is this!!

I have to ask.  Why won’t you post:

NEVER GIVE A SUCKER AN EVEN BREAK!

as Rule #1 that Congress abides by in light of the Astro turf battle against health insurance reform?

If the number I have is correct and an average 273 die every day from lack of health care (both not insured and those under insured) it approaches 99,000+ a year die and that was in 2006! With over 9.7 million now unemployed you can bet that all the numbers are too conservative on that. By-the-way suicides are up 28% this year. They won’t be counted as connected to any of this even though you can be it really is.

It is far worse that what is generally known and there are those out there who would try to hide it.

Alex-

“The Institute of Medicine estimates that about 20,000 people die each year in this country due to lack of health insurance” (although some est are as high as 80,000)

This is from the Physicians for a Natl Health Plan site.http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/may/most_mds_citizen.php

garth—good idea. I have to say one thing about Stan Brock, becaue it surprised me. I have a friend who wanted to go to the RAM that was held in Virginia, just as Obama was going to Chicago for a fundraiser. I had invited Obama and some Senators to attend.(umm, they declined, I guess). He wanted to bring a video camera. Brock sent me back a huge right wing rant about health care being a privilege, not a right, and, that we should stop trying to promote our political agenda using his charity ‘paid only with smiles and thanks of patients” (!!) He further stated that he refused to go back to countries where they considered it a right, because they were not “grateful enough”! I told him not to break his arm patting himself on the back about his ‘christian charity”...gawd. I guess even assholes do nice things if they think they wil get a reward in heaven..but then its not really “charity” at all, right? lol

But your idea is good. The Cuban people know that it is a human right! The medical industrial complex here makes sure that most people here do not—until they get sick, usually.

I’d like to see someone advocate for the admission of a Cuban team of doctors to treat the populations in some of the metropolitan areas. Like the Remote Area Medical under the leadership of Stan Brock, this one would Metropolitan Medical under the leadership of Cuban doctor.  They’ve done it many times before in South America, and, God knows, we need it here.

They’d treat minorities in the major cities.

Wouldn’t that frost those self-righteous, greedy bastards?

Sorry Anarssissa that isn’t what I am talking about. The real and long term already in use “death panels” are from the health insurance boards who ration care and decide whether you get that surgery you need or not. If they will pay for that medicine your doctor wanted to give you for your cancer or delay you from getting it until you die. Something the likes of Limbaugh & Palin would not talk about. There are many stories but little publicized on corporate news networks.

The main thing about corporate death care is that they make there money from not treating you or giving you less than you need. You should understand that Anarssissa. I should not have to school you in this simple fact.  We have the best health care system money can buy. And if you don’t have it then you run the risk of an early and painful death. Do you even know this?

I wish you would have read what I had written more closely and you wouldn’t have made that elementary critical error.

Night-Gaunt:
‘Jack Foster don’t you know that we already have rationed care through those health insurance companies you like so much? ...’

I am amazed by the persistence of this canard, worthy of Limbaugh or Palin but hardly to be considered by anyone over the moron level.  The “death panels” were no more than provision in the medical insurance plan to cover end-of-life counseling.  As for rationing, in any economy where desire exceeds capacity there is going to be some kind of rationing.  For 99.9% of the people, that rationing will be completely out of their control regardless of whether they are insured and cared for by private companies, the government, cooperatives, charity, the Saturnian ant men, or their own money, and the decisions will be made in largely the same way.  I understand why flacks for private insurance are pushing misconceptions about it, but I don’t understand why so many people are buying them.  At some point people are going to have to stop believing everything they’re told and do some elementary critical thinking.

“I voted for Mr. Obama! He seemed like an embodiment of an all American MERIT (defined as high intelligence, wisdom & integrity)! Why isn’t he using these precious tools, to make decisions that are in the best interest of all Americans, not just the rich and powerful?”

Used to think the same thing.  Realizing the falsehood of merit #3 answers your question.

Jack Foster don’t you know that we already have rationed care through those health insurance companies you like so much?

So far Obama has done everything to make it look like he is for change but is keeping the main problem, the health insurance companies in the middle of it. So blame him for supporting the very ones who make our health care, death care.

Q: What’s wrong with the HMOs making an honest profit?

A: Nothing at all.  And if you know of one that actually does make its profits honestly, please let me know so I can switch to them.

folktruther is quite right about NPR and torture.  check out the controversy over @ salon:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/07/02/npr/

it is disillusioning and disenchanting to find that sources you once trusted implicitly, cannot be trusted.  one might find that the tie that binds leads to a corporate sponsor.  or an intrepid reported pulls back the veil on everyone, except for his or her parent company.  don’t you love that terminology:  “parent company?”  they set little playpens for us to run around in.  it seems like we have some freedom, just don’t cross that gate!!  that is out of bounds.

how about the left’s beloved olbermann and his truce with fox?  (since the story has broke he has gone back to criticizing fox, to his credit.)

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/08/01/ge/

so who can you trust?

chris hedges and glenn greenwald are in my “trust zone.”  i take a good look at my sources of information.  once again i echo folktruther who noted CIA operatives are situated in prime positions in the MSM and offer asymmetrical information, or more often, pure disinformation.  others such as kovie, who posts @ openleft and salon, have pointed this out as well. im afraid that when all the skeletons are out of the closet, what we find will shock the average joe, and even surprise even the most aware among us.

anarcissie and TAO made insightful posts as usual.  the D’s are treading on thin ice because this health care adventure has given the general public a very clear window into the real activities and motivations on The Hill, and how they are CONstructed.  we have realized the the R’s have failed completely, and now it is the turn for the D’s to fail in the same way, for the same reasons, due to the same masters.  after they fail is it time to give the R’s a chance again?  what a beautiful system…

maybe the general public has graduated from the 3rd to the 4th grade.  and we have finally learned that santa claus is not real.  will this slap to the face awaken us from the dream that is the duality illusion of this political system?  this system in some way is comparable to the duality illusion that is life.  good/bad, up/down, republican/democrat.  in spirituality the unity of all life is a beautiful thing.  the ALL ONE of divinity. in politics it is ALL ONE MONSTER.  we need to chop off all of it’s heads, and destroy it completely, in order to have a new day, and a new start.

i have said this before on truthdig:  many times this we feel small and weak, and the fight seems futile.  but we should remember that what we are doing, even though it appears to be just blowing hot air @ each other, (sometimes that is all it is) is actually an important part of the process.  before we can do anything about our situation we need to figure out exactly what is happening.  there are still more pieces of the puzzle for even the most well informed among us.  as we unveil the beast we can show others what we see.  part of this first step is acknowledging what we are up against.  as a country we are slowly figuring it out.  even the layman, as thick as he is, and as many times as his wallet has been raided, and as much as his head has been spun by the pundits, has begun to wise up.  it has become far too obvious for even the oblivious to miss.

I attended a congressional Town Hall Meeting where about 1,000 people were told by the 20th Congressional District representative; “What’s wrong with the HMOs making an honest profit?” This neo-liberal jerk went on to praise American capitalism and staunchly opposed single payer, the only viable and humane approach to healthcare.
Why? For one thing he received over $130,000 dollars from the healthcare leeches in campaign contributions! Unlike his father who preceded him in Congress this guy has NO cojones!
President Obama and Congress continue to ignore the reality of our healthcare woes; the HMOs and Big Pharma are responsible! The HMOs reject applicants with “pre-existing” conditions or deny needed treatments. Thus 18,000-22,000 Americans die needlessly every year. While the HMOs profits continue to skyrocket upwards, the quality of our healthcare spirals downward! It isn’t rocket science! The Pharmaceuticals have a monopoly on the price of needed prescription drugs and we are not allowed to order our medications from Canada, yet Wal-Mart can purchase pharmaceuticals manufactured in India! Yet our government has no problem in permitting the healthcare capitalists to continue their control and domination of our healthcare system!
It has become very clear to me that our electoral system is as corrupt as our healthcare system(s)! When elected officials can receive bribes and defend the evil doers, it is time for a REAL CHANGE!

Elisa, I’m afraid truthdigger 3 is right about public radio.  They do not for example call what the US does to prisoners as ‘torture.’

It is not surporising that the army censors and lies.  After all, their business is killing.  But the CIA also has assets in all the media, including the Progressive media.  The American worldview is systematically distorted by power.

KDelphi, how can a legislator promote the population’s interests agaisnt power if they are going to be attacked in all the media for it, and denied funds for reelection?  What is needed is the reality based truth to the people to mobilize them to take money away from the rich.  Both Dem and Gop reps will defend the rich.

The news article below speaks for itself as to our “Truth system.”
**********************
Stars and Stripes
Mideast edition, Thursday, August 27, 2009
WASHINGTON — Contrary to the insistence of Pentagon officials this week that they are not rating the work of reporters covering U.S. forces in Afghanistan,
Stars and Stripes has obtained documents that prove that reporters’ coverage is being graded as “positive,” “neutral” or “negative.”
Moreover, the documents — recent confidential profiles of the work of individual reporters prepared by a Pentagon contractor — indicate that the ratings are
intended to help Pentagon image-makers manipulate the types of stories that reporters produce while they are embedded with U.S. troops in Afghanistan.
The new revelations of the Pentagon’s attempts to shape war coverage come as senior Defense Department officials are acknowledging increasing concern over
recent opinion polls showing declining popular American support for the Afghan war.
“The purpose of this memo is to provide an assessment of [a reporter from a major U.S. newspaper] … in order to gauge the expected sentiment of his work
while on an embed mission in Afghanistan,” reads the preamble to one of the reporter profiles prepared for the Pentagon by The Rendon Group, a
controversial Washington-based public relations firm.
Stars and Stripes reported on Monday that the Pentagon was screening reporters embedding with U.S. forces to determine whether their past coverage had
portrayed the military in a positive light. The story included denials by U.S. military officials that they were using the reporters’ profiles to determine whether
to approve embed requests.
In the wake of that story, officials of both the Defense Department and Rendon went further, denying that the rating system exists.
In a statement e-mailed to Stars and Stripes, Rear Adm. Greg Smith, director of communications for the International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan,
wrote: “To imply journalists embedded with our forces only serve to highlight positive aspects of our mission slights the professional journalists who regularly
embed with our forces and report what they experience, both good and bad.”
The Rendon Group declared in a statement that “the information and analysis we generate is developed … not by ranking of reporters.”
But the Rendon profiles reviewed by Stars and Stripes prove otherwise. One of the profiles evaluates work published as recently as May, indicating that the
rating practice did not in fact cease last October as Whitman stated.
And the explicit suggestions contained in the Rendon profiles detailing how best to manipulate reporters’ coverage during their embeds directly contradict the
Pentagon’s stated policies governing the embed process.
“These ground rules recognize the inherent right of the media to cover combat operations and are in no way intended to prevent release of embarrassing,
negative or derogatory information,” reads the “News Media Ground Rules” issued by U.S. military officials for embedded reporters in Iraq.
Several professional journalists’ groups as well as media ethicists criticized the Pentagon’s attempts to rate and manipulate reporters. And at least one military
official with knowledge of the profiling system has also begun to raise objections.
“It’s troubling that the military is contracting a private PR firm, paid with U.S. taxpayer dollars, to profile individual reporters,” said one servicemember who
declined to be identified for fear of official retribution. “It shows utter contempt for the Constitution, which we in the service pledge our lives to defend.”
Stars and Stripes’ Charlie Reed, Kevin Baron and Leo Shane III contributed to this report.

elisalouisa wrote:
“PBS is the only channel that treats the news as news rather than entertainment.”

That might be true, but that doesn’t mean you will get honest news without bullshitting and spinning or omitting some items and emphasizing others.
PBS does all the above. You will not gonna get unbiased honest eporting from PBS or NPR.

Folktruther:That’s the basic problem, Elisa, not the electoral system but the
truth system.  The electoral system will never change as long as the power
system of the ruling class controls the truth system.

The people must somehow gain control of the truth system, and this will
probably require an international media.
*******
I know a rose by any other name is still a rose but what you refer to as the
truth system is anything but the truth. For want of another name how about
the disinformation system?
You are absolutely right about the need for an international media. Rupert
Murdock might very well think of a way to gain control of that also. My
knowledge about communications is nil. I just wonder if it would be possible to
have an English version of the news media emanating from China or Russia or
other such place that would be transmitted by satellite to the US. As it is now,
it is very difficult to know what is going on without digging. Some people do
not have the inclination, temperament, energy or time to do so. A true choice
of media sources would be helpful. Also, PBS is the only channel that treats the
news as news rather than entertainment. That would be on my wish list also;
let’s make the news just news. Those who wish to be entertained can change
channels.

“Capitalism” is not a “form of govt” and it is the problem.

Capitalist “health insurance industries” are doing what capitalists do.

Are Democrats laboring under some sort of fallacy that corporations give a rat’s ass how they make money?

There is not point in trying to “stand up for this ‘plan’”—-what would one say, “I want the right to give more money to an industry which produces nothing but misery and death”.
Military industrial complex, medical industrial complex. You only get them if you are still stupid enough to think that the rewards outweight the suffering.

FOX News is not the problem, the DEMOCRATS have control of the House the Senate and the presidency (yawn). They can do whatever they like. This is what they want. The system IS the “problem”

Health care, food, shelter, education , etc are either human rights , or , they are up for the profit machines. You chose. Obama hasnt endorsed national heatlh care since 2003. He took millions from the for-profit “insurance” industry, dropped off his Blackberry at his Senate office and set out to woo soccer moms.It worked. He also played on peoples’ racism, knowing “how much better” rich people would feel if they could vote for an Af Am.
The original “issue” was the 50 million who go without health care—-remember?? Now, as always, with Capitalism, it is simply about MONEY.

Republican clamoring that NO HEALTH CARE IS BETTER THAN ANY/ALL PUBLIC OPTIONS and millions paying insurance premiums only to have their claims denied for the sake of profits. The gullible, ignorant narcissistic-consumerist-glutton American public is simply pathetic. When Sadaam Hussein tell the truth and the American president lies and when Sadaam goes to the gallows spitting and cursing the hangman while Cheney whines and whimpers about the prospect of being held accountable for his criminal conduct and when the American public is duped by 10th rate psycho’s like Beck, Dobbs, O’reilly, Limbaugh and the like when they could access 1st rate psycho’s like Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels proves that the ability of Americans, to go 1st class in favor of 10th class psycho’s,to destroy themselves has taken a turn for the better. American will destroy the USA faster and nastier than any external imagined enemy.

That’s the basic problem, Elisa, not the electoral system but the truth system.  The electoral system will never change as long as the power system of the ruling class controls the truth system.

The people must somehow gain control of the truth system, and this will probably require an international media.

i think the way to make a dent in the opposition to
health care reform is to point out that it took ten
u.s. soldiers to kill one german soldier because the
krauts were so much healthier, because bismarck had
institituted universal health care back around 1870.
and look at how healthy all those wetback are that
come to work at the most menial job: one aspect of
the mexican socialist revolution that worked was
healthcare, every little village has its clinica.

The cause is much older and much simpler than anything mentioned in the comments. It’s also much bigger and more devious. But one has to let go of the attachment to Political Parties, being right, trying to get solutions from the problem and so on to recognize it. The problem dwells in the human psyche. In our current mode, we can only move from one problem to another, endlessly arguing, endlessly suffering in one form or another. It’s tiring and unnecessary. I suppose at some point we might stop. But, there is no evidence to support this supposition. Visit my new forum…dgswilson.com/index.php

For a time I really believed that the outbursts at Town Hall Meetings were set up;
that such individuals could not exist. Now I know such people do exist and
much of their rage can be attributed to Fox news which seems to have a spirit of
its own as to meanness and ruthless spinning of how things are. One friend, a
lifelong Democrat who lives across the country and pays an obscene health
insurance premium some how puts the blame on the government. Excuse me?
The task of trying to set her straight has been a difficult one. Her husband listens
to Fox news and at times she cannot help but overhear the venom that spews
forth from Fox news personalities. If my friend, whom I have known for years, can be convinced, anyone can be convinced and turned into a raging maniac.

CJ:
>Oh yeah, capitalists shouldn’t be allowed outside cages, but they’re everywhere busy extracting profits by ANY means.

Come on, be reasonable.  The profit motive is a very good incentive to innovate and improve your product or the quality of your service in a free-market system.  History’s proven that one many times over.

The problem is that free-market principles only actually apply when freedom exists in the marketplace.  This is not the case in health care, which, as Chris noted, is not a consumable good, and it’s not the case in any market in which freedom of choice does not exist due to monopolization.  But good luck getting the far-right nuts to understand such subtle distinctions…

5. Boycott American Express who gave Max Baucus $50,000 for his campaigns. Call Joanna Lambert at 212 640 9668 and politely tell her you will not use any American Express cards until the American Express CEO gets Max Baucus to get HR 676 enacted into law. Email me after you call.

I canceled my American Express card immediately after this news broke. I wrote a letter explaining my decision was based upon this action as well.

SICK FUCK

Who is responsible for US health care being so screwed? Nixon and Edgar Kaiser, of course. -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QkgUkM0o6Q

The Nixon Whitehouse where Cheney, Rumsfeld and the Iran-Contra gang learned their skulduggery.

Remember Nixon and Kissinger’s Operation Condor and the tens of thousands of Argentinian disappeared, many
inhumanly dumped out of aeroplanes into the Atlantic ocean whilst drugged but still alive. Sister Stella Calloni - US
Operation Condor

http://www.elhabanero.cubaweb.cu/2008/noviembre/nro2396_nov08/nac_08nov826ingles.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor

Nixon’s obiturary - “He Was a Crook”, by Hunter Thompson - http://www.counterpunch.org/thompson02212005.html

Don’t let the Neocons have _you_ for lunch - http://exiledonline.com/class-war-101-meet-the-reptiles-who-are-
making-meat-out-of-you/

Where’s Victor Laszlo, Rick and Capitain Renault when we need them to drown out the fascists? Aux armes, citoyens -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iYbEPZVVIA

“What goes above or below the line is fungible.”

...And no different from any other industry in that regard - so perhaps you quibble with salaries being above the line, but that would apply to any industry so why single out health insurance?

And any industry would use fungibility to poormouth, if they were likewise questioned about their profiteering at the nation’s expense.

As for salaries, it’s quibbling if salaries are the only factor in the cost inflation, but I presented salaries as one of many.  I single out health insurance because 1) we’re talking about healthcare and 2) healthcare insurance has a captive market, which it egregiously exploits.  As Hedges’s essay begins, “Capitalists…should never be allowed near a health care system.”

Anyway, as you can see from my post, in the total picture I place insurance as one in the profit food chain.  Even so, insurance should be singled out because private insurance is not only a cost inflator itself but a catalyst for inflation up and down the food chain, like Saddam’s Iraq was for terrorism.  Furthermore, insurance is the stage in the healthcare food chain that could most easily be nationalized.  It could simply be co-opted by the extension of Medicare or bought out through eminent domain. In the latter case, no one in the industry need lose their job (though top executives would probably move on to greener pastures, as is their wont), they would just be working for a better employer.

I’m curious what data you have that supports the “inflated payments to fee-for-service doctors”, since I believe there’s little incentive to insurance companies for that as it would reduce profit margins.

Of course it doesn’t reduce profit margins; the cost, like other costs, are passed to the premium.  (Remember, it’s a captive market.)  As for fee-for-service, it’s one of the biggest scams in the healthcare racket.  It’s a huge inflator of costs.  I don’t have figures offhand, but you can get an authoritative take from Dr. Relman of Harvard, whom I often cite and who discusses fee-for-service in this NPR interview, which I highly recommend your listening to.

Oh yeah, capitalists shouldn’t be allowed outside cages, but they’re everywhere busy extracting profits by ANY means. United Healthcare a fine example of extractor par excellence. Does anyone reasonably expect yet one more outfit to give a crap for other than profits doled out to shareholders? No owners of which need ever purchase insurance, which is long-time capitalist racket thought up in a London pub called Lloyds.

Cuz we got no idea of “moral duty,” Eugene. Say’s Law of chiseling. Would there were Dante’s hell. No such luck, or if such luck, good luck observing torment so deserved. But who would be sent there?

Percentage increase in fraud since Rembrandt was painting portraits of Dutch Bourgeoisie: One million. At least, I’d guess. (Hals painted pictures of people in nursing homes, which haven’t improved a single percentage point since. Actually, I’m reasonably certain the quality of care at any has declined since then. Actually, I’m in a position to know they haven’t, but can’t prove it because I failed to grab proof just after being dismissed. Stupid, stupid, stupid!)

“The current health care debate in Congress has nothing to do with death panels or public options or socialized medicine. The real debate, the only one that counts, is how much money our blood-sucking insurance, pharmaceutical and for-profit health services are going to be able to siphon off from new health care legislation. The proposed plans rattling around Congress all ensure that the profits for these corporations will increase and the misery for ordinary Americans will be compounded.”

Precisely, Chris. “[The corporate state] is yet again pushing Americans, especially the poor and the working class, into levels of despair and rage that will continue to fuel the violent, proto-fascist movements leaping up around the edges of American society. And the traditional watchdogs—those in public office, the press and citizens groups—are as useless as the perfumed fops of another era who busied their days with court intrigue at Versailles.” Perfectly said, Chris. Court of Louis (AND aristocracy too) reincarnated (if it ever left) just across the Atlantic.

I’d only dispute “proto-fascist,” since here already. Today, a WWII vet (who lost since he won) harangued McCain concerning what he wants, forgetting to mention how he’s enjoyed single-payer since he was drafted or enlisted. Got to love that good ole American selflessness. There was mucho applause—usual Skinnerian (fascist) approval. McCain then lied of this, that and the other thing, all to do with anything by government, of which he’s big-shot deal enjoying benefits in at least two ways. Three, actually. The last not related to his…(official) position, by now as court jester, in communion with a few hundred, or thousands, of court jesters. Right about government, but wrong (lying) on the details.

All that remains, or would remain, would be embarrassment over what we’ve devised. Franklin said to the lady, “…if you can keep it.” We couldn’t keep it, even had we got it. Which we never did. The “inventor” of electricity failed miserably in devising a Constitution that allotted even greater privilege to court than theretofore. Even the British one had to answer to a mad king. Here, arrangements were made (once rid of rule by mad king) for “freedom of extraction.” Cleverly, they also allotted for likely whining. So long as none interfered in the non-linguistic world. Then, “naturally,” corporations regarded as individuals. Not really surprisingly after “establishment.” Which was apt term when reducing all living and non-living to so much property, whether one or three-fifths of one, or none.

“’The way you make money is by abusing people.’” That’s right, though we hardly knew ye. And then, by now madder than ever was King George.

Re: Marshall

Your comment: “When drugs can be bought elsewhere for less, someone is subsidizing that cost differential because the R&D costs for medications that took billions to develop are what primarily drive their price under patent laws designed to protect those risks.”

This is not the case.  Their TONS of this type of example:

“Taxes are but one form of welfare. Subsidised use of public resources, such as with J R Simplot’s grazing and American Barrick’s mining, is also widespread. The US Forest Service undercharges timber companies for the logs they take from publicly-owned land. The Forest Service also builds roads and other infrastructure needed by the timber industry, investing $US140 million in 1994.

The government also pays for scientific research and development, then allows the benefits to be reaped by private firms. This occurs commonly in medical research. One product, the anti-cancer drug Taxol, cost the US government $US32 million to develop as part of a joint venture with private industry. But in the end the government gave its share to Bristol-Meyers Squibb, which now charges cancer patients almost $US1000 for a three-week supply of the drug.”

http://www.converge.org.nz/pirm/hugehand.htm

By jmr, August 25 at 2:24 pm #
By glider, August 25 at 2:56 pm #

“What goes above or below the line is fungible.”

...And no different from any other industry in that regard - so perhaps you quibble with salaries being above the line, but that would apply to any industry so why single out health insurance?

I’m curious what data you have that supports the “inflated payments to fee-for-service doctors”, since I believe there’s little incentive to insurance companies for that as it would reduce profit margins.

When drugs can be bought elsewhere for less, someone is subsidizing that cost differential because the R&D costs for medications that took billions to develop are what primarily drive their price under patent laws designed to protect those risks.  CBO health care report cites medical technology advances as the primary driver of growth in health care costs. (meds were 10% of all health care dollars in 2007 and rising about 10%/yr. since mid 90s).

I agree that private administrative costs are higher, though the studies i’ve read show only about 5% difference for private vs. public.  But medicare’s administrative costs are rising too and it’s also about to go bust - not a very good example to use i’d say.

Witness Switzerland which Obama cited recently at his town halls.  It’s health care costs have skyrocketed over the years (was already at 11.5% of GDP in 2003) - going up just as they have in every other country.  How do you explain that?

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/89xx/doc8947/01-31-TechHealth.pdf

I have these actions to stand for HR 676.

Print these out on index cards and bring them to library bulletin boards and other bulletin boards so others can take action.

Read and Sign these 3 petitions

1. http://bit.ly/HR676

2. http://bit.ly/single_payer_ross

3. http://bit.ly/drug_benefit

4. Boycott Tyson Foods of Arkansas who gave Mike Ross $37,000 for his campaigns. Call lobbyist for Tyson Foods Chuck Penry 202 393 3921 and tell him politely that you refuse to buy Tyson chicken until the Tyson Foods CEO gets Mike Ross D-Arkansas the leader of the Blue Dogs on health care gets the entire house and senate conservative Democrats to help get HR 676 enacted into law. Tell others to call. Send me email after you call to .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

5. Boycott American Express who gave Max Baucus $50,000 for his campaigns. Call Joanna Lambert at 212 640 9668 and politely tell her you will not use any American Express cards until the American Express CEO gets Max Baucus to get HR 676 enacted into law. Email me after you call.

See our blog http://blog.democratz.org

Imagine 50 million democrats forming their own health insurance group?

The Democratic Party has their own credit card, so the party does have initiatives that involve their members. Why not have a Democratic Party
non profit insurance group? This does not appear a coop but a group
of millions of people getting non profit insurance through the Democratic Party.

Read and sign this petition

http://www.change.org/actions/view/we_the_undersigned_ask_the_democratic_party_to_create_one_large_insurance_group

See our blog http://blog.democratz.org

From the same person:

“Anything to do with govt. state or federal is corrupt to the hilt….

“I am uninsurable according to the insurance companies because i have fibromyalgia real bad. You bet they don’t want to cover my medical bills because it might cost them THEIR PROFITS a bit.”

The government is corrupt to the hilt.  How do I know?  Because the private insurers are screwing us. 

Thus, the thought process of the healthcare reform opposition.  Wait, it’s not thinking at all!  How do you fight something like this?  It’s like one of those giant world-devouring maws they used to fight in Star Trek.

The arguments here at TD against healthcare reform, are not unlike the debate between this caller and George Galloway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtw5Zy2M6rk

Remember…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMdFGkTlLAo

Another important point from The Washington Post article by, Simon Johnson and James Kwak.

“According to a Kaiser Family Foundation study, in 1988, 73 percent of people covered by employer-based plans had conventional health insurance; in 2008, that figure was 2 percent. Why did this happen? Because private health insurers shifted toward managed-care plans, primarily preferred provider organizations and health maintenance organizations, that use either gatekeepers or differential payment schedules to contain costs. According to Feldstein’s definition, that is, private health insurers are rationing.”

So if you believe that physician and patient alone should decide what care to provide, then you should be trying to outlaw managed care, which is the foundation of the private health insurance industry.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/25/AR2009082501075.html

This is the crux of the debate, these unwary folks are being run roughshod with fear, while tightly gripping their Medicare Card…. just in case.  The propaganda being fed these folks is inexcusible, it’s despicable and it is not unlike what was fed to the nation after 9/11.  We went to war, “ON A PACK OF LIES” (George Galloway) and thousands died.  This time it is a huge portion of our country being fed, A PACK OF LIES.  If we do not… or cannot stop it, thousands will die.

Many of these older folks are completely unaware of the facts, and monied interests have whipped them into such a fury that they are not thinking straight…. fear has overtaken reality.

As a society, how do we view those snatch little ‘ol ladies purses…..?  Would utter disdain fit?  It’s hard to describe, isn’t it…?  Yet, that is exactly what is happening here.  The very same tactic, scare the shit out of them and steal their money.

Big M, August 25 at 12:46 pm #

So, what sort of gun were you displaying at that rally?

Carol, August 25 at 3:51 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

CORRUPT. Anything to do with govt. state or federal is corrupt to the hilt.

You state that the insurance industry has let you down, then blame a govt that is currently trying to reform that industry..I think you confused.

Politico   8/29/09
By Kenneth P. Vogel

David Axelrod’s Ties Targeted In Health Fight

First 3 paragraphs of column
Critics of President Obama’s health-care overhaul are zeroing in on his senior
adviser David Axelrod, whose former partners at a Chicago-based firm are the
beneficiaries of huge ad buys — now at $24 million and counting — by White
House allies in the reform fight.

The unwelcome scrutiny, largely from Republicans, comes at an inopportune
time as Obama seeks to shore up support for health care reform. It revolves
around two separate $12 million ad campaigns advocating Obama’s health care
plan that were produced and placed partly by AKPD Message and Media, a firm
founded by Axelrod that employs his son and still owes Axelrod $2 million.

A separate firm, GMMB, is also handling the campaigns. Both AKPD and GMMB
did millions of dollars of work on Obama’s presidential campaign, continue to
tout their connections to the campaign and still maintain close ties to his inner
circle….........................
Last paragraph of column
“The big issue seems to me whether there is a quid pro quo with PhRMA,” said
Allison, adding “there’s no evidence that Axelrod steered the business to the
firm. But the fact that special interests like PhRMA and the American Medical
Association working hand in glove with the White House picked a firm that is
so close to the White House shows how incestuous Washington can be.
************************************************
From what I have seen, the PR on Health Care that Obama proposes has not
been that good. The results tell the story. The staged negative quality of Town
Hall Meetings are having too much influence. Basic facts that favor the Health
Care Plan are not getting out.

Marshall,
Your statement is disingenuous at best.

Look at the administrative expenses, the medical loss ratio and compare that to single payer based systems.  Even these numbers understate the problem.  The companies only need to produce enough profit to satisfy wall street relative to other investments (wall street will drive their capitalization up to that level).  The biggest incentive is for the management team to pocket big bucks themselves.  Same with AIG and Goldman Sachs.  All these institutions have made massive amounts of money for their insiders and have done so doing socially bankrupt deeds made acceptable by there obscene political lobbying.

“Profit as Percent of Revenues: 4.5%”

That’s a misleading number.

What goes above or below the line is fungible.  For example, the fat salaries of top executives—their profits—go above the line, as expenses, along with other “overhead,” such as house lawyers, the inflated prices the insurers pay for fee-for-service based doctor bills, for meds that cost $70 at Rite Aid and $16 in Denmark, and for 12% administrative costs compared to Medicare’s 2%.*

Aetna’s thin margin is only the tip of the iceberg.  You have to add the margins of Aetna’s partners-in-crime.  Expenses are the excuse the industry uses to justify what in reality is an enormous cartel of different companies—from the insurers to the suppliers to the cushy conference resorts and their vendors—scratching each other’s backs with a wink and a nod, as they inflate the cost of healthcare.

And no, these are not “fixable” factors.  These are the vital organs of a corrupt system.  Spiraling healthcare costs are not the result of R&D advances and technology (give me a break!) but of the law of diminishing returns which demands that the capitalist food chain take ever-increasing margins—whether creative accounting calls them profits or expenses—in order to survive.

This system doesn’t need fixing, it needs abolishing.

_____________

*From the New York Times:

The McKinsey Global Institute estimated that excess spending on “health administration and insurance” accounted for as much as 21 percent of the estimated total excess spending ($477 billion in 2003). Brought forward, that 21 percent of excess spending on administration would amount to about $120 billion in 2006 and about $150 billion in 2008. It would have been more than enough to finance universal health insurance this year.

Marshall’s thoughtful points notwithstanding, I don’t see why we are having this conversation.  I really do agree with Barney Frank:  What planet do reform opponents come from?

M.B.S.S.:
’... and as to what the “struggle” is, i would say that haggling over the way in which private insurance and pharma be given a handout, does not constitute my idea of a serious legislation.  the fulcrum of the debate is not about socialization at its peril.  i am aware of the realpolitik, process oriented aspects of this murder mystery.  but they fail to compare to a real change in the game.  so i will continue to talk about what i want. ‘

Certainly.  I just wanted to say that I don’t think there is any real market involved in the present set-up.  I myself would prefer communism, but I’m not going to get it; after that I would like to see medical care and insurance organized as a system of cooperatives owned and operated by the users, but I’m not going to get that either.  There remains the choice between a completely private oligopoly, which would still be part of the State and protected by it—this is what we have now, except for Medicare—or an oligopoly which is partly open to public review and influence (I dare not say control).  There just is no question of any market in the usual sense in any of this, and the opponents of Single Payer or the public option should not be allowed to get away with pretending that they’re defending free-market principles.  They are not.  For once, Hedges’s headline is exactly right.

Au contraire !  The status quo is always an option - it’s always the preferred option - the one human nature chooses every time.  Ask any first-year student of biology what “homeostasis” means - all of nature is geared to remain as close to the current environment as possible - fear of change is almost insurmountable.
  I guess the only good news is that eventually the parasitic insurance companies will kill off their ignorant “hosts” - eventually companies and individuals will realize they just don’t have the cash to pay the premiums and co-pays anymore.  “Reform” will arrive when only those making over $250,000 can afford insurance. After all, that’s the “free market” right ?
  The Robber Barons in industry of the early 1900’s got away with all kinds of anti-labor practices ..... until the workers finally got fed up, banded together, and refused to work in hell-holes.  Too bad it took decades for workers to realize it.

To:M.B.S.S., August 25 at 9:05

When you said:

” i would submit that it is in our interest as a
society to uphold a basic level of dignity

and respect for every soul that walks this earth,
despite the costs.  this is due to the

innate value and worth of the human being.  and the
love and wisdom that those so

called “expendable persons” bring to our lives is
not quantifiable.  which is why it is

idiotic to try to look at life through the lens of a
spreadsheet.”

I would say amen !!!!!!!!!!

Now for the reality check.

THE MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE, THE NEW WORLD ORDER :
ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT,

or whatever you want to call these evil miscreant
fascists controlling the world, they bankrupted the
U.S.,

and think of you & I as prey. Part of their world
domination plan is to eliminate billions of useless

feeders from the planet to preserve as many resources
as possible for themselves. Current estimates

are that 1 billion people around the world are
starving to death.

M.B.S.S., you can search the web to verify what I’m
saying, or consider this. The Bushes belong

to a cabal called THE BROTHERHOOD OF DEATH AKA SKULL
& BONES & Obama is Bush 3.

i would like to bring my thoughts to their logical conclusions:

1.  since there is no way “the market” can ever solve the problem of caring for societies health and well being, due to the fact that their will always be casualties, even in a perfect, idealized free market, then there is no way to address this problem within the confines of that arena.  we must pull this “consumable good” from “the market” entirely, and treat our neighbor’s and fellow citizen’s health and well being as something that is an inherent right, and essential to upholding our human dignity, and as a marker of our level of civilization.  and why the fuck do we treat it as a consumable anyway. isn’t that ridiculous?  it just goes to show how commodified every aspect of our lives have become that we tend to think of everything in this way.  what this means is that every cure for this societal sickness which simply engages in making the market for health care more fair, is rooted in failure.  deregulation and opening insurance across state lines may help bring down the cost of health care. (because deregulation fixes everything right?) but ultimately, we can’t afford losers in this area of life.  we need everyone to win with at least a modicum of attention, care, and dignity.  all reforms rooted solely in “making things more competitive,” are not going to work to my satisfaction.

2.  even if i am wrong, and there is some advantage to culling the herd, and not caring for every last member of our society.  say we kill those below a certain i.q., or over a certain age, in order to increase productivity and efficacy.  i would submit that it is in our interest as a society to uphold a basic level of dignity and respect for every soul that walks this earth, despite the costs.  this is due to the innate value and worth of the human being.  and the love and wisdom that those so called “expendable persons” bring to our lives is not quantifiable.  which is why it is idiotic to try to look at life through the lens of a spreadsheet.

Re: Marshall

Yes, I see I did mangle that as you say…and as you say, it did hurt… but I’ll live.  I apologize to “engineer”.

Your comment: “The problem is not private insurers - it’s a system whose incentives are wrong.  And the solution is not to entrust it all to the government - it’s to fix the system.  And there will be no perfect solution: the cost of health care is increasing EVERYWHERE; even in the countries that single-payer people like to point to as examples.  Because most of the cost increases are unavoidable, assuming you want a system that actually advances the cause of medicine through R&D and improved technology.”

I agree it’s the system and yes the incentives are wrong.  I agree there will be no perfect solution and that the cost of healthcare is increasing everywhere.  But that is where I draw the line.

I disagree that this will harm R&D, a sizeable amount of R&D is subsidized by the government already, but taxpayers who’ve footed the bill are not reaping its benefits, big pharma is.  Healthcare innovation shouldn’t be stunted by any means, who doesn’t want to sell to the government?  Look at insurance companies banging down the door to get at government money.

It’s plausible to see how it might increase more valid innovation, things we really need.  In other words, do we really need a drug for “restless leg syndrome”?  Was there a big call for this…?  Is this syndrome so serious or life altering that we need a drug for it?  I’ve never known anyone with this “dire” need, but many with this “condition”.  Personally, I think it is a made-up syndrome/disease to sell some dud-drug big pharma doesn’t know what to do with.  We could instead use the “natural” approach and take my mother’s advice, “Get up and walk around, It’ll go away.”

Is anyone claiming that as cost rise, costs for single-payer, Medicare for All will not also rise?  These costs, however should rise at a substantially lower rate than private healthcare costs and maintain an overall lower cost. 

With privatized healthcare every movement through the chain requires a profit (some, flagrantly unwarranted).  By the time services/products arrive to the patient…. charges have skyrocketed.  It has to be brought under control. It is obvious that capitalizing on healthcare leads to all types of malfeasance, by all involved, whether they agree with the dictates or not.  The undeniable eventual outcome is many suffer needlessly, or die.

That is the REAL bottomline, not balance sheets, not income statements and not profit margins.  We can do this, by reallocating funds already in the system and by a tax increase, well below current premiums.

This is America, the richest country in the world and our fellow citizens are suffering and dying.  How many Americans gave money, food or their time after Hurricane Katrina….?  Everyone cared, everyone did what they could.  Businesses donated employees for a few hours, money, and services.

Medicare for All is the only cost effective, universal, sane thing to do.  This can be done.  This has to be done.

@ anarcissie
partially this is my own fault for posting this out of the context of the dialogue from which it was taken.

i’m fully aware of the current state of market distortion with regards to health care or medical care and insurance.  i usually just say health care since the point of language is to convey concepts, and “health care” includes both medical care and insurance in the minds of most americans.

state regulations can keep the quality and price of health care quite disparate from state to state, not to speak of locally.  there are concentrations which for all intent and purposes are monopolies.

http://www.openleft.com/diary/14744/death-panels-vs-the-herfindahlhirschman-index

my point is this:  say we create a perfect free market in a vacuum.  there will still be casualties.  there are going to be winners and losers in any market, free, or one with collusion between government and corporate.  there will be people that can’t afford the consumable product of medical care and medical insurance.  this will not do.  it is in our best interests to provide a modicum of health care to all citizens as a fundamental right.  it’s not only the right choice morally but it is the right choice economically.  how can a workforce that provides for the least of it’s members, providing basic life supporting functions, in the face of a dire emergency, fail to have high morale and the basic mathematical advantage of more healthy, productie citizens, which would spill over into productivity, which ultimately will increase the bottom line.  excuse my technical mathematical formulae.  this is what i believe.

and as to what the “struggle” is, i would say that haggling over the way in which private insurance and pharma be given a handout, does not constitute my idea of a serious legislation.  the fulcrum of the debate is not about socialization at its peril.  i am aware of the realpolitik, process oriented aspects of this murder mystery.  but they fail to compare to a real change in the game.  so i will continue to talk about what i want.

CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE - THE BIGGEST GUN

_BIG_ GUNS
The healthcare debate is presently being decided by those with the big guns. Right now the Insurance companies, HMOs, drug companies, the AMA have the big guns.

You are a little guy. But people tell you that you too can have a big gun. Let’s talk about that big gun.

If you are going to buy a gun, you want a _big_ gun - a .50 cal rifle, for instance—Something that can take out a vehicle at fifteen hundred yards or the cockpit of a $50m fighter jet on the ground—Makes a nasty dent in very expensive jet engines too. It also costs about $2 a round which makes quite a hole in your wallet, never mind the target.

If the US does implode with the healthcare debate on overheat, it’ll be good to know you have a _big_ gun and also to know what ‘they’ will probably use on you. ‘They’ being everyone from the military, deployed to quell domestic unrest, to militias, to barking-mad lone patriots.

Now that you have your _big_ gun, you’ll be able to see what that ‘flesh wound’ will look like. Here’s an example—the dangers of ‘goat-herding while Afghan’—Oops. Not much left. More mince than steak. -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOZoYIoyjuM

CANADA
Having decided that it doesn’t look like a barrel of laughs, you might then decide to visit Europe. Or Canada. For an OHIP card if not an extended stay. (Just kidding about the OHIP card).

EUROPE
Much wiser, imo. “You’ll all be welcome in Virginia.” ER, Europe - the dastardly Colin Firth - Shakespeare in Love - @2:06 -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgjyk253WV8#t=02m06s

ALTERNATIVELY, SOLIDARITY

You might decide that solidarity is a better bet than ‘big guns’ or any kind of gun. - Aux armes, citoyens - Casablanca -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iYbEPZVVIA

Howard Zinn - Civil Disobedience - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oRoQTwac9M

The ‘biggest gun’ of all - metaphorically speaking.

By Outraged, August 24 at 7:56 pm #

Ooh - ouch… Outraged you mangled the numbers completely and i refer you to the source so you can update yourself.  Then you wrongly took Engineer to task.  But hey, even this article tries to portray the AETNA numbers in a misleading light so here are the facts for 2008:

AETNA - FY 2008
Revenues: $30 Billion
Profits: $1.3 Billion
Profit as Percent of Revenues: 4.5%

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2009/snapshots/10886.html

That’s right: 4.5%  My lemonade stand did better than that.  And
get this: AETNA’s profit margin went DOWN 18.4% from 2007!!  Yes - DOWN.

You’d never know that from the blurb in this article because all they mention is that gross revenue went up which by itself means nothing.  But it helps get the anti-capitalist faithful all whipped up.

The problem is not private insurers - it’s a system whose incentives are wrong.  And the solution is not to entrust it all to the government - it’s to fix the system.  And there will be no perfect solution: the cost of health care is increasing EVERYWHERE; even in the countries that single-payer people like to point to as examples.  Because most of the cost increases are unavoidable, assuming you want a system that actually advances the cause of medicine through R&D and improved technology.

What Chris Hedges has left out in his excellent
article:“This Isn’t Reform, It’s Robbery”,is the
difference between health care & health. Here is my
take.
MIPIC: MEDICAL INSURANCE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRIAL
COMPLEX has already written the hoax called a
healthcare bill,

just as Exxon wrote the energy bill & Philip Morris
wrote the tobacco law. That’s the way FASCISM & or an
OLIGARCHY works, &

WALL STREET wins & MAIN STREET loses always. We know
energy prices are manipulated & resulted in
impoverishing we the

people. We also know that tobacco products continue
to kill we the people. So far no surprises. Now comes
the great shocker &, for

most people, a real surprise, no it’s not that Obama
is Bush 3, that’s a given. The shocker is that MIPIC
is the leading cause of death &

injury in the U.S. & is responsible for almost
800,000 iatrogenic deaths per year. That’s more than the 20,000 people who die because they didn’t
have health insurance or
deaths resulting from life styles

which cause unhealthy changes in the heart & blood
vessels. More deaths than gluttony induced diabetes
resulting from a pancreas

unable to keep up with the extra burden imposed on
it.

For the specifics on how MIPIC does this, Google:
“Medical system is leading cause of death and injury
in US” .

The reality & farce is that the new so called
healthcare bill has nothing to do with health, but is
just a ploy to continue the existing

system which is nothing more than leading we the
people to an early grave by treating symptoms or
conditions caused by self

induced life styles. For example: heart attack  

” Sudden interruption or insufficiency of the supply
of blood to the heart, typically resulting from
occlusion or obstruction of a coronary artery and
often characterized by severe chest pain. Also called
myocardial infarction.”

Or consider cancer, which is : the rapid uncontrolled
growth of abnormal cells. Here’s how it works. If a
person inhales toxic

substances, such as asbestos ,coal dust,or tobacco
smoke, into his or her lungs, cells die & the body
replaces those cells in order to

repair itself. The more these irritants are inhaled
over time, the body can’t keep up producing normal
cells & malignant cells form

instead. Like trying to clean chickens on a conveyor
belt that’s moving too fast. The same principles
apply to the skin, whether over

exposed to the sun or tanning beds.

So then, what is health, and how can we care for it ? 
Health is : (I’m going to leave mental alone for
someone else to cover) meeting

the needs of the body by eating nutritious foods in
moderate amounts, avoiding known poisons, getting
adequate rest, & exercise,

drinking water instead of alcoholic,caffeinated, or
sugar drinks. Not drinking with your meals (washing
the food down interferes with

digestion & stretches the stomach), & wearing
comfortable shoes.

The congressional whores & the predator in the White
House playing good cop bad cop couldn’t care less
whether we live or die.

If you don’t take care of yourself & your family,
don’t expect a “program” from a corrupt government to
do it for you.

Remember, these FASCISTS send us off to die in fake
perpetual wars, feed us & our pets toxic food from
China, & sell us

deadly toys for our kids to play with.

Medical (not health) care and medical insurance are not libertarian and are not generally subject to market forces.  They are a highly-regulated, government-protected and -enforced oligopoly.  The present struggle is not over “socializing” private enterprises, it’s over how a complex State institution is going to be regulated.

cross posted @ glenn greenwald:

to me this is one of those areas where the libertarian ideology falls apart entirely. you can’t fit a square peg into a round whole. we can’t treat health care like a consumable good, and to the extent that we already do, we have failed. buying health insurance is different than buying twinkies, and it is even quite different than buying car insurance. not only are the implications different, but since we are human beings, and not robots, the more etheral considerations, the emotional factors, the philosophical consequences touch something deep inside us that should cause us to stop and reflect on what it means to be a human being. libertarians seem so cold to me to couch everything in economic terms. as if we are something other than human, and the point of life is something other than enjoying ourselves, and loving each other.

at some point don’t you have to say to yourself: “not all of life should be subjected to market forces.” these are our brothers, sisters, mothers, daughters and sons. this is something other than supply and demand.

and to the extent that i am ridiculed for approaching life in this manner i would say: not only is a more compassionate approach to health care more empathetic and just, it is also the most economically feasible. if we were to emulate the countries that cover all of their citizens, we would drive down costs, increase productivity, increase morale, and all the rest. which ultimately is a boon to business.

it is not debatable that other countries have better health outcomes, while spending less, and covering more.

This pretty much sums it ALL up….way too many of the American sheeple are too damned stupid to realize that they cut their own throats every chance they get.

The people in this video are too stupid to realize that they’re being ridiculed by these “billionaires”:

http://www.billionairesforwealthcare.com/HOME.html

Without a public option there won’t be any health care, it’s just that simple.

But then again, what we’re witnessing is a falling standard of living as this country enters the domain of the third world.

A falling standard of living, to third world status, it’s going to take some getting used to. Most third world countries only have money for the military, to keep the paranoid right, and their riches safe.

With 32 trillion dollars in unfunded liabilites looming, and 2 trillion dollars a year in collected taxes…there won’t be any health care, except, you and your stethascope, your merck, and tests from your local pharmacy… that’s all your going to get…I’m sure the right will find a way to argue about that too..

You’ve all heard the expression about those who ignore history being doomed to repeat it. That is what’s happening now. The insurance companies are the new Robber Barons. Unfortunately, our politicians at this time are bought and paid for by these (among other) companies. As long as any business can give money to a politician, WE THE PEOPLE are irrelevant. As Tao said, we are cattle to these people. William Cooper was the first person I heard use the word “sheople” to describe us. He preached constantly about a lot of things, but his biggest was a fear of our own government. Turns out, he was shot to death on his own property by “law enforcement” officers. My point is, as long as WE THE PEOPLE let these things continue; be it corporate robbery passed as law, denial of habeus corpus, illegal search and seizure, IMMORAL WARS, the “war on drugs” (which is really a suppression of liberties), rampant unchecked greed by our “elected” representatives, etc., etc. (list is too long for print here), then NOTHING will change. Our system is broken. Can we pull ourselves off of our collective couches to enact some REAL change? Do WE THE PEOPLE have the courage to fix it, or will we allow our children to be sold into corporate slavery?

I’m surprised that nobody on the pro-universal care side has picked up on the essential difference yet.

The right-wingers try to scare people with the concept of “socialized medicine,” where everyone has to pay for other people’s health care.  That’s no different from the current system, where we pay for insurance that gets used to pay for other people’s care.

The only real, significant difference between health care run by the government and health care run by a private corporation is that if the government’s system doesn’t work well, ordinary people without extensive stock portfolios can replace the decision makers.  By contrast, the people getting killed by the current system can’t vote the corporate bigwigs out of office.

TAO, I agree with you in large part but surely the
imaginary chains are transformed by consensus and
enforcement into real ones whether you like it or
not?  Everyone has to pay taxes and obey the laws or
go to jail. 

It is depressing and confusing to live in this
captive world - I would like to ride off into the
sunset but I do not know how.  And would I be able to
take anyone with me?  I try in my own way but I do
not think I am very brave about it. 

There’s a fundamental crucial point about what it is
to be alive and human, and every debate I see on the
news just tramples it under a lot of peripheral
bullshit.

http://www.madashelldoctors.com/

Do what you can to support this group of doctors who are going to caravan (care-a-van)to DC in September for single payer.

Get people to come to their rallies in different cities on their route.

Send them a few bucks for gas.

Forget public option.  That was a scam from the get go.

Re: engineer (unregistered commenter)

“Hmmmm.  An outlandish 434 million in profits for Aetna.  Certainly unconscionable.  UNCONSCIONABLY LOW!  Do the math.  2.7 billion in revenue, with 434 million in profits.  That is a 1.57 % profit on revenue.  One and a half pennies per dollar.  This is no basis at all for an intelligent argument that there is price gouging.are   And no, I neither work for nor own Aetna.”

Hmmmmm…..is correct!  $2.7 billion in revenue for the YEAR, 434 million in profit for the QUARTER.  Me thinks for one who calls themself “engineer” you have incredibly bad math skills.  In fact, in your computation you did not move the decimal point over two places, only one.  It would be 16% not 1.57% but that was not your only “error”.

If you take those quarterly profits ($434,000,000.00) and multiply them by FOUR which would be an approx. YEARLY profit of, $1,736,000,000.00 dollars.

Then simply by dividing that $1,736,000,000.00(the approx. YEARLY profit) by the $2,700,000,000.00 dollars (the yearly revenue) you will arrive at “profit as a percent of revenue”.

To put this in simplier terms if I want to know the what percent “25” is of 100.  I cannot divide 100 by 25…... I would get “4” or 400%. no, no, no.  I have to divide 25 by 100 to get the correct percent…..25/100=.25, then simply move the decimal two places to the right to arrive at percent.  In other words, 25%.

Therefore not only did you not use the correct amounts in the first place, it appears you forgot to MOVE THE DECIMAL POINT to put the percent in its rightful place.

So then….. back to the correct computation. By dividing that $1,736,000,000.00(the approx. YEARLY profit) by the $2,700,000,000.00 dollars (the yearly revenue) you will arrive at “profit as a percent of revenue”.

$1,736,000,000.00 divided by $2,700,000,000.00 equals .64296296296, move the decimal two places to arrive at 64%.

Of course profit is computed AFTER bonuses and salaries are paid….. this is where the obscenity really becomes stark as this article shows:

(2007 figures)
“Aetna Ronald A. Williams: $23,045,834
Cigna H. Edward Hanway: $25,839,777
Coventry Dale B. Wolf : $14,869,823
Health Net Jay M. Gellert: $3,686,230
Humana Michael McCallister: $10,312,557
U.Health Grp Stephen J. Hemsley: $13,164,529
WellPoint Angela Braly (2007): $9,094,271
L. Glasscock (2006): $23,886,169

http://www.healthreformwatch.com/2009/05/20/health-insurance-ceos-total-compensation-in-2008/

Being that I am from Canada, I must add my agreement to Chris Hedges call for universal non-profit health care in the United States. However, I don’t understand the following:

“The corporate state, enabled by both Democrats and Republicans ... is yet again pushing Americans, ... into levels of despair and rage that will continue to fuel the violent, proto-fascist movements leaping up around the edges of American society.”

A CORPORATE STATE IS A FASCIST STATE. I’d be surprised if Mr. Hedges has not read John Ralston Saul, among others, to know this.

Seems to me that citizens of the US need to wise up to the whole of what is going on in their/your country. The pseudo health care debate is just a tip of the proverbial iceberg of the malaise that has infected your entire society.

@ Matti

It seems that votes are not the problem.  The money flow and leverage that the lobbyists have has to be mitigated in order to have any real effect.  Campaign Finance reform, and the current way businesses are represented has to be changed.  Otherwise the system will work the same way it does now.

Read Matt Taibbi‘s article in Rolling Stone is a killer concerning just what is going on with the surrender if not down right traitorous acts to kill reform and give us a worse system and contribute to our early deaths. All the while continuing to empower and enrich those same Death Care System that is out of control and killing hundreds every day, thousands a week, tens of thousands an month and 100,000’s a year?

“Government don’t mess with my Medicare.” One of the signs at anti-healthcare reform Town Halls. It is a succinct and cogent rendering of what propaganda has done to the minds of at least 54% of Americans at the latest polling. The enemy is winning and people will continue to suffer and die slowly without death camps or direct laws to accomplish it. Nice if you are a genius psychopath who likes to kill. The fruits of free markets at their highest glory. Police and fire fighting next?

I’m rooting for Slovenia to pass the US in the WHO health rankings.  Go bluedogs.

I could have used a few tips on how to profit from the health care lobby bubble before it bursts. 

Still this isn’t a sprint, lots could happen before they get to the finish line.

I’m with those here who argue that this “health care reform” debacle should be the final push that is needed to stimulate people into abandoning the Dem Party.

I’d also agree that it is the system, not a lack of “third parties” that gives the Dems and Repubs their stranglehold on political power. And that we could therefore to just as well -if not better- to back an existing party instead of organizing a new one.

But I also have an thought of my own to contribute:

If what we need has come down to “the two-party duopoly must be broken”, would we be willing to attempt to work within the system that empowers them, but in our own way?

What I mean is: Are we willing to make the main object of our efforts generating enough money to try and buy the TV time (and all the packaging and other crap that goes with it) that has become necessary to win elections nowadays?

Because IF we are so willing, and IF the TV people and corporate press are more greedy then they are anything else, I think we could just do it.

Let’s say that 1,000,000 people (round number for ease of calculation) could be organized by January 1st 2010 into a committed fundraising corps. They would be ready and able to put aside MERELY $1-a-day for the purpose of donating it to the campaign coffers and structural party-growth efforts of, say, the Green Party. If so, this relatively small number of people would raise the following amounts by the following dates:

-$151,000,000 by June 1st 2010 (for the Congressional Capaign season).

-$304,000,000, or an additional $153,000,000, by October 31st 2010 (for the Campaigns themselves)

If these same 1,000,000 re-commit to begin to do this again starting the day after Election Day 2010 -and are not augmented by any more people- then they would raise:

-$576,000,000 by June 1st 2012 (for the Congressional and Prez campaigns).

-$729,000,000, or an additional $153,000,000, by October 31st 2012.

Those numbers would seem to me capable of buying airtime and column space for at least 100 serious Congressional Campaigns and 1 serious Prez Campaign -at least in anything but the most openly biased media. It would also seem capable of organizing an effective party structure that would last beyond the campaigns. And, since 1,000,000 is less than the number of people who voted “third party” in even the 2008 Prez Election, it would seem to be a modest and achievable goal.

The only question I see is whether a (currently) small party such as the Greens would be willing to organize such a thing and if 1,000,000 (or more) people would be willing to commit to it.

Food for thought, and maybe for ACTION,

-matti.

I agree, TAO, that the historical problem is essentially spiritual and communal, not political in the commen meaning of the term.  That is why forming another political party is useless.  What must be done is to change the truth consensus of the American, and earth, people.  But this is a historical task, to be accomplisted with the US and Western civlization sinks historically down the toilet.

It never occurred to me before that our political reps have simply given up.  You’re probably right.

http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php&person=44

I worked to see if I could get the entire URL to activate. By connecting it worked.

Our system has taken some time to reach this state and I don’t want the entire system to come down in order to rebuild it. That would be the worse thing to happen. But unless we make major corrections in it we could be finding ourselves in a false caricature of a democratic-republic run by the crooks who gamed the system to win within.

Years ago, visiting the U.S. capitol with a delegation of Native Peoples, this old Indian had the good fortune to run-into a friend from BIA boarding school days who’d gone-on to a ‘career’ in government, and was then a staffer for the Senate Interior committee.  She offered the following bit of hard-earned wisdom:  It is the real aim of most elected politicians not to actually ‘solve’ any problems, but to be perceived by ‘the public’ as wrestling heroically (but interminably) with them.  This could be, she opined, because deep-down they’ve realized the Pandora’s Box of dire predicaments overwhelming the world’s domesticated peoples here in these latter days are not, at their roots, ‘political’ anyway.

Some would characterize them as “spiritual,” but the religiossifaction of the term renders it of dubious usefulness.  “Community” is another word, essentially biological in its meaning, once helpful in discussing the Human condition, but one also long since bastardized to the point of not just mere worthlessness but actual toxcicity.

One sees daily illustrated here on ‘truthdig’ both the CONtrived, systematic impoverishment of language, and the degenerative effects of that on good-faith efforts by sincere “individuals” to get some kind of ‘workable’ understanding of the condition their peoples’ CONdition is in.  This cacaphonous “healthcare debate” is but the latest example of so much “....sound and fury signifying nothing.”

Columnists and commenters alike are gripped in at-least a couple of gross misCONceptions that prevent their coming to any kind of grounded stance relative to what it is afflicting them so grievously.  One is the essential nature of their captivity….its processes and purposes.  Another is their widespread ignorance of the organic function of Humanity in the Living Arrangement of our Mother Earth.

So they are reduced to spinning their rhetorical wheels in vain attempts to make the CONtraption CONfining them marginally less intolerable….even as the thing itself enters the ‘terminal’ phase of its own machinations, intended by its owner/operators to wring-out all the ‘redundancy’ presently bogging-down their command-and-CONtrol apparatus.  This means NONE of its dwindling ‘resources’ will be ‘wasted’ on surplus two-legged livestock their tormentors are in the midst of preparing to do-without in-any-case.

A ‘stampede’ of panicked “individuals” is to be avoided, however, so all the front-men-and-women CONtinue to go through the motions of keeping their CONstituents hoping against “HOPE!” that something actually beneficial to them might somehow yet emerge from the ‘corridors of “power”.’  Nothing will, though, because nothing can.  There’s nothing there.

The only Way our tame Sisters and Brothers can have even a GhostDancers’ chance of weathering this shit-storm is to get together where they actually live-and-breathe, and help each other.  No “salvation” is coming from Capitol Hill or the state-house or city hall.  No ‘divine’ hero on a white horse will come charging down from ‘above,’ either.

Domestication is what’s killing them.  More-and-more-and-more-of-the-same will not cure them.

The Medicine is in us surviving free wild Peoples….of every kind.  Cattle (and chattel) are only make-believe….like everything about “civilization.”  The ‘bobwire’ fencing them in is all in their heads, too.

HokaHey!

To be or not to be. Or as this corporate structure puts it,‘can you afford to live’? This is their ‘New World Order’, of, by,and for the corporate elitists & those who can afford it. It excludes the disabled, who are considered ‘unfit’ by these boardrooms to be insured,if not to breathe the same air.          Where large sums of money mix with corporate boardrooms,the rights of the less fortunate,be they elderly,out-of-work,the disposessed or the disabled always get murdered.

I hope that this healthcare “reform” fiasco has shown any doubter how fraud and sham is Obama and the Democrats.
It was clear for a long time that there is no REAL difference between the Democrats and Republicans and both of them serve only the interest of the moneyed/corporate elite with no regard whatsoever for the wellbeing of the common people.
I add my voice to the voices calling for a third party.

Remember the intense propaganda campaign to get us into the Iraq War? Bush and company wanted their war. They badgered, lied, and used every trick in the book to get it. And they did. They even convinced much of the public to support the war as a national necessity for a time.

If Obama truly wanted to push through real reform of the health care delivery system he could have mounted an equally strong campaign to get it done. And unlike Bush he would not have had to rely on lies to accomplish the goal. The simple facts would have more than sufficed.

That this was not done by Obama and the Democratic Party despite having an overwhelming majorities in the House and Senate, plus control of the Executive branch demonstrates the folly of the Left adopting a strategy of electing Democrats and then hoping their rhetoric will match their practice. It never does.

People suggest a 3rd party, but that is only a small part of the solution. What’s really needed are citizen initiatives that go beyond imploring the government to do the right thing. Whatever forms these initiatives take, they must be targeted in such a way that they cannot be ignored.

For example, the French public will occasionally strike if the powers that be ignore their needs for too long. The strike throws enough sand into the gears of the economic machine to force the government/industrial section to reckon with the strikers situation. Color of Change has made Glenn Beck’s life more difficult with a campaign of confronting his sponsors with Beck’s more outrageous babble and asking them to distance themselves from it. The cause of removing Beck is rather trivial in the grand scheme of things, but the tactics are not. Fox can’t ignore its own pocketbook.

If our system stays blind to the needs of its citizens, then it needs to be periodically reminded of its dependence on those citizens. Collectively we wield a lot of power. We have to learn how to use it.

Night-Gaunt, you are aboslutely right.  It is not the parties or electoral system that is the first need for change, but the truth system.  YOU CANNOT HAVE AN ELECTORAL SYSTEM THAT REPRESENTS THE PEOPLE IF THE RULING POWER STRUCTURE CONTROLS THE LEARNED AND MASS MEDIA AND OTHER TRUTH ORGANS.

If both the intellectual and emotional truth is profoundly distorted- as it has been historically in the US- the population will not support a party that promotes their historical interests.  It is necessary for the people to emotionally identify with the reality based historical truth in order to promote their interests in the future.  Otherwise the American people will be deluded, diverted and misled-as we have been- to identify with the interests of the power structure rather than those of the population.

Howe can Obama fight for socialized medicine- and that is what is wanted even if Americans are too chickenshit to call it that- if the entire truth industry vehemently attacks it.  Including the Progessive truth media.  Eventually there must be a realization that the American truth system is broken, and it is fundamental to all other systems: the economic system, the legal system, the electoral system. 

Unfortunately the simple historical truth sbubverts the American Dream and Americans therefore do not emotionally accept it.