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How Bad Things Might Have Been

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Posted on Aug 13, 2009

By Eugene Robinson

    We’re told the economy is on the mend, but we still see six-figure job losses every month. The health care debate has become so polarized that even if it ends in breakthrough legislation, chances are that opponents will still be irate and supporters more exhausted than overjoyed. The deficit is gargantuan, bipartisanship is nonexistent, the prison at Guantanamo is still open and the war in Afghanistan looks like a potential quagmire. The summer has become a bummer.

    But anyone sliding into a slough of despond should keep things in perspective. Almost every day, there’s some reminder of how far we’ve come since President Obama’s inauguration—and how much worse things could be.

    This week, there were two such aide-memoires. The first was a report in The Washington Post that Dick Cheney, in his upcoming book, plans to detail his behind-closed-doors clashes with George W. Bush. The story, by Post reporter Barton Gellman—whose book “Angler” is the definitive account of how Cheney, as vice president, basically tried to rule the world—quotes a source as saying that Cheney believes Bush went all soft on him during the second term.

    That was when Bush ordered a halt to the waterboarding of terrorism suspects, closed the secret overseas CIA prisons, made diplomatic overtures to hostile states such as North Korea and Iran, and generally started to behave in ways that Cheney apparently deemed entirely too reasonable.

    Gellman reported that Cheney, in the book, will also deal with what Time magazine has reported was an aggressive, in-the-president’s-face campaign to persuade Bush to grant a full pardon to Lewis “Scooter” Libby, Cheney’s former chief of staff, who was convicted on perjury charges. Bush refused, and Cheney is said to be still steamed about it. It’s useful to be reminded that for eight years, until Jan. 20, we had a vice president who thought his proper title should have been Caesar.

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    The other lesson on perspective we got this week came from The New York Times, which offered new details about the kind of America our would-be Caesar wanted to create. In a story by Times reporters David Johnston and Mark Mazzetti, Kyle “Dusty” Foggo, the CIA official who set up those secret CIA prisons, tells how he did it. Foggo is now serving a three-year prison sentence for his role in a contracting scandal that was not directly related to the “black site” detention centers, which owed their existence to his logistical skills.

    Foggo marshaled the materiel to build three secret prisons—one in Bucharest, Romania; one in another, unnamed former Eastern Bloc city; and one in Morocco, according to the Times account. They were designed to be identical so that detainees would be disoriented when moved from one prison to another. Among the amenities Foggo provided were plywood-covered walls that would be less likely to cause serious injury when detainees were slammed into them.

    Yes, until recently we had an administration that didn’t believe in niceties such as due process and rule of law. Our nation asserted the right not just to detain suspects indefinitely, but also to abuse them, to torture them, to make them “disappear” like victims of some banana-republic junta.

    I know I’m not alone in wishing that Obama were moving more quickly to erase the stain that the Bush-Cheney excesses left on our national honor. I wish Guantanamo were already closed—but Obama did set a date certain for shutting the place down and pledges to follow through. I’m troubled that he hasn’t flatly rejected the concept of indefinite detention—but he at least recognizes that some kind of due process needs to be involved.

    I’m most troubled by Obama’s resistance to a full-bore investigation of the Bush-Cheney transgressions. I can only hope that the president sees the error of his ways—or at least that the probe of CIA interrogation abuses that Attorney General Eric Holder may launch is allowed to follow the evidentiary trail to whatever crimes it may reveal.

    But that was then and this is now, you say. Bush and Cheney are history. They were going to leave office in January anyway, no matter who replaced them.

    That’s true. But witness Sarah Palin’s weird near-daily eruptions—about imaginary death panels and the like—and reflect on what the summer would be like if she was serving as vice president of the United States.

    I don’t know about you, but I’m feeling much better about everything.
   
    Eugene Robinson’s e-mail address is eugenerobinson(at)washpost.com.
   
    © 2009, Washington Post Writers Group


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By Amon Drool, August 22, 2009 at 9:35 am Link to this comment

shepotamus’s offer to send $ to kdelphi brings to mind dylan’s line—you’ve got a lot of nerve to say u are my friend..

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By Amon Drool, August 22, 2009 at 9:20 am Link to this comment

ok…first the easy one.
shenonymous: “You are recalling your own statement. Shenonymous was not even a participant on that forum.”  never said u were a participant on that forum.  and, as for me recalling my own statement, i was recalling the essence of kdelphi’s statement as well as i could and using it for “effect.”

and, ok…i am having somewhat of a dan rather moment here.  i did try to access the CD archives (my computer skills are laughably primitive) and was unable to navigate properly in search of that particular post.  if i had found it, i wouldn’t have written what i did in my post of 8/21 2:59am.  the larger point that i’m trying to get over to u is one of fairness and decency.  your condescending, mocking posts to others who disagree with u are over the top.  it’s like it’s not enuf for u to point out what u perceive to be errors in their argument. u seem to take pleasure in belittling others (and yeah, most of us deserve a ‘cutting down to size’ at times)  to me, many of your counter-“arguments” come off as a disproportionate response to others.  u see it as giving more than u get.  i see it as indicating mean-spiritedness.

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By Shenonymous, August 22, 2009 at 9:03 am Link to this comment

Sorry KDelphi but I’ve had my share of good lays and bad!  Have you
ever been laid?  What a mouth you have and small mind.  Too bad.  What is
truly pathetic is how self-absorbed you really are. 

I have said many times on both TD and CD that I keep all the forums where I
participate.  I am writing a book on bloggers.  I mentioned that as well.  The
obvious thing is that you are so amazingly stuck in your own limited thinking
that you are not capable of thinking any one could do something interesting
with forums.  What you are involved in, I’ll give you a clue…it is called
solipsism.  Ask Leefeller about that word.  If, that is, you could make him up so
that he could exist for you.  Can you even remember Leefeller?

By the way if you ever want to see how many times you said the word Daddy in
your comments on both TD and CD, I could tell you that!  Or how long you
have been whining on the forums both TD and CD about your health and
health care, I could tell you that too (it’s been years)!  And how many others
have said what a fool you are, I could tell you that too.  And the fact that you
traveled all over Europe getting different kinds of health care is kind of
ludicrous itself since you have money to travel but not to pay for your own
health care.  Hmmmmm curious. And to think I offered to send money to help
“poor KDelphi”?  Guess I am the gullible one after all as I see no one else made
that offer.  The truth will set you free.

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By KDelphi, August 22, 2009 at 8:26 am Link to this comment

She—that is really pathetic that you keep CDs of every forum!! You must have nothing else in your life. I apologize—I didnt know this was your end all and be all. POsting accurate intellectualizing online is obviously very impt to you.

Maybe the passion you hate is the passion you lack.

Maybe you need to get laid.

“The inability to perceive that is a function of poor upbringing, poor
education, lack of critical thinking and racism, I say. “

THAT shows how emotionally immature you are—you know NOTHING about me, but you think you do.

To think that I admired you…youre not half the woman I thought you were.

I think that your emtional intelligence is stunted—all you do is judge, accuse, make assumptions, and race bait.

Anyone else keep a CD of every forum they have ever posted on or do you have a life?

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By Shenonymous, August 22, 2009 at 5:02 am Link to this comment

ur jst a bg blowhard Amon.  Selective memory is convenient when you
want to throw daggers at a favorite Nemesis.  Here catch this one—Go f urslf. 
I’m sure you always have plenty of time to do it!

Try this Drool…
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/09/06-0?page=1
Shenonymous September 6th, 2008 6:58 pm
I’m posting this at both TD and CD for KDelphi just to cover those two bases. 
Everybody is hearing you KDelphi or are you not reading the Truthdiggers and
CommonDreamers at TD and on CD? You might trying to channel your passion
directly to Obama or McInsane. Your reference to how the rest of the world
feels about America is futile and a misguided effort on the topic of universal
healthcare in America, single payer or not. But of course you can spend your
energy wherever and however you like on whatever you like. Just trying to be
helpful so that your tirades at least have some effective use. Over and out on
this topic.

And the usually confused, self-absorbed, and feigning KDelphi said a
few minutes later at 7:17 pm
Daddy! These two girls are following me around and caling me names!
Make’em stop!Oh, that’s OK honey. Just ignore them. They’ll find somethign
better to do. Hopefully.

She was seeing double because there was no one else even speaking to her or
about her.  And that was hardly an attack! 

Then try this one…

A Team of Zombies
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090206_a_team_of_zombies/
By Amon Drool, February 9 at 1:59 am #
daddy, daddy….this mean girl is chasing my sister kdelphi.  don’t worry, son. 
kdelphi can take care of herself.  and maybe the mean girl will go away.  ok,
dad….

You are recalling i your own statement.  Shenonymous was not even a
participant on that forum.
  We can easily see you have your head up your a__
again, or you are showing signs of AD.  ur sch an asshole. (There is no easy
way to abbreviate that word asshole so I’ll just repeat it again, asshole).  Get a
grip, man.

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By Amon Drool, August 21, 2009 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment

well, u are right…one can get into the CD archives going back that far.  i’d really have to take up a lotta time searching down that post and it just ain’t worth that much time.  my point was:  u said that u only fought only when someone started a fight with u…i used the CD example to show that your assertion was not true.  i remember kdelphi’s response to u:  “Daddy, Daddy…these two mean girls are chasing me.  What should i do?”  LOL   u say i simply lie.  u say u are in possession of that post.  well, girl, throw it at us and let others be the judge.

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By Shenonymous, August 21, 2009 at 7:11 pm Link to this comment

actually, i did try to verify that “story” by going to the CD archives.  but they
didn’t go back that far.
Amon Drool  Yeah, they do Amon, you are just
lazy.  I have burned a cd for every forum I’ve ever posted on, CD and TD and
those that I posted to where KDelphi also posted, the whole things.  But it can be
found at the CommonDreams site.  I can even copy here the exact comment you
are trying to refer to and it is not as your bleary brain implies.  But you will have to
do your own research.  You simply lie.  It’s okay.  I’ve already talked about the
immorals.

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By Amon Drool, August 21, 2009 at 6:53 pm Link to this comment

actually, i did try to verify that “story” by going to the CD archives.  but they didn’t go back that far.

as for me feeling insignificant….who knows?...maybe i do, maybe i don’t.  i just try to give it my best shot and let the chips fall where they may.  and i’ll sign off with some shepotamus breeziness…ta ta

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By Shenonymous, August 21, 2009 at 6:23 pm Link to this comment

Oh, I meant to sign off with a flourish, Amon…
Your potamus toots Shenonymous.

I’m collecting all the names the pedestrian Contingent calls me.  It will make a
hilarious read some day.

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By Shenonymous, August 21, 2009 at 6:14 pm Link to this comment

With such a fuzzy memory Amon, you might just make up your own story to tell
yourself for your own entertainment.  I couldn’t care less what you think or
remember.  But you could spend more time looking for that interesting note
instead of feeling so insignificant.

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By Amon Drool, August 21, 2009 at 5:28 pm Link to this comment

shenonymous 8/21 2:59am:  “Ammon Drool I hafta to say that i have no need to attack anyone, but i do fight back.  You obviously cannot read for comprehension.”

comprehend this, toots.  last year, kdelphi got into it with u and cyrena about something or other.  at the time she was still posting at common dreams.  she posted something there while she was still having a clash with u on TD.  i forget what the subject matter was of her post at CD, but i know it made no mention of u.  u came over to CD and responded with something like—pity the poor girl, she’s obviously unbalanced and needs mental help.  now, tell me…in what way were u fighting back there?

some here at TD may think u talk a good game.  and like folk says, at times u do strike an interesting note.  but that note is usually swamped in teacherly condenscension and wwf bravado…making that note hardly worthwhile.

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By Sepharad, August 21, 2009 at 5:15 pm Link to this comment

Rontruth, that’s a good point. Healh reform IS the centerpiece of any revitalization. Closely followed by education, that is.

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By Shenonymous, August 21, 2009 at 5:15 pm Link to this comment

I wrote all the Dems representing us in Congress as well as those state
legislators (who are cutting so many health services to people on Medical as
well as children), in pretty harsh terms, telling them that if they can’t get us a
public health option with their majorities to work with, I’d never vote for a
Democrat again, even if Attila the Hun was on the opposing ticket, and would
vote for socialist/populist candidates in the primaries.
Sepharad and
rontruth for all the rancor that has appeared on this forum and for what
was my part in it, I acknowledge whatever fault or shortcoming I may have
shown.  The state where I now live has only Republican politicians (as did the
last one), but I will spend my weekend writing to them anyway as well as all the
Democrats everywhere else with a similar message as you here wrote.  For what
it is worth, I completely agree with both of you as stated in your last posts. 

KDelphi I also concur with MarthaA that posting on TD should be
the least important thing in anyone’s life, and especially if told there is even a
slim possibility that life will be shortened.  There has been so much death in
my family that I lost fear of it a long time ago, and “it will come when it will
come.”  But I know this much, if I were told I may not have a naturally long life,
I would spend that time with my family and loved ones.  Unlike MarthaA 
I do not believe in an afterlife.  But I do agree with her in that I think it is vital
to make the most out of whatever life remains whether it is to be cut short or
not.  I chose the word vital because it contains the idea of dynamic, fullness of
spirit and that I believe is what life ought to be about.

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By MarthaA, August 21, 2009 at 4:02 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi,

I had two brothers die last year, one from a brain tumor and one from a stroke.  It was too much stress for the older to endure seeing his younger brother being destroyed by cancer and I guess he quit taking his blood pressure medicine or something, because he shortly had a stroke and was taken to the hospital where after about a week, he died on daddy’s birthday two days before the younger brother died.  There’s no way to know, but it appeared he wanted to be there to help his younger brother through the process, so we had a double funeral, one day apart, with both buried by daddy in the same cemetery.

The good thing is that you have time to make end of life arrangements, whereas people killed in car wrecks don’t have a chance at all.

Everyone dies, some sooner, some later, the best you can do is make the best of the time remaining.  Get all the medical help you can, get your affairs in order.  It still looks like Senator Kennedy is not going to make it, because he is asking the Governor to appoint someone to take his place, and he has had the very best medical help possible.

Do what you can and try not to dwell on what you can’t do anything about.  Make a will so that what ever you have won’t be thrown into court and taken from your family, which is what Medicaid does.  Don’t forget that things that were yours will be treasured by your family, even little things will be treasures after you’re gone.

I don’t know if you are a Christian, but I have accepted the free gift of Jesus, my Lord and my God as my Savior in death, and I hope you have.  If not, it isn’t hard, just ask Jesus to save you, no one even has to know.  Just tell God in the name of Jesus who died for you to remember you, because you want to be with him, and just like the thief on the cross, you will pass from death unto life. Jesus died for you because he loves you and sticks closer than any friend or brother, in fact he is your brother, if you accept him. May God be with you, in the name of Jesus, and guide and keep you through what you’re having to endure,  even though I disagree with you on so many things. 

You may think I want you to die, but I don’t, I don’t mind you disagreeing with me, it makes me work harder to prove you wrong.

All I can say is make the best of the time you have left, and I don’t think if your time is short you should spend your remaining time plunking on the keyboard, trying to change the world. Get with your family and do some things you have always wanted to do. Take care of what business you have to take care of so that your death won’t be a burden on your family, like Senator Kennedy is trying to do for the nation and the people of his state.

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By Rontruth, August 21, 2009 at 3:10 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad,
I concur, 100% with your analysis of what Obama needs to do. What people, I think, need to understand, is that the overall healthcare coverage reform plan is really a big part of the any economic revitalization.

Economic revitalization is, as it was when Bill Clinton was president, the only way to “fix” an economy that big tax cuts to wealthy people, and GOP rip-offs of average workers through s tiny federal taxcut that got eaten up in state tax increses due to budget cuts to the states, while rich people stuck theirs into tax havens and offshore bank accounts, RUINED with the first president Bush and smiling Reagan.

The same corporate power structure that told Harry Truman “no” on healthcare coverage reform, has imposed that word, “no” on the American people ever since.

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By Sepharad, August 21, 2009 at 2:32 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi—I’m very glad you don’t have RA on top of everything else you’re contending with. If you’re on Medicaid there might be a state university with a good teaching hospital and neurology clinic. I’ve gone to the rheumatology clinic at UCSF for years, it’s far less expensive than private doctors and they do take Medicaid, Medical, etc. but also UC has a tumor board whose members saved our then-14 and 15 year old son stricken with a rare cancer considered incurable, using a not-yet-approved chemo combination.(He’s 26 now.).  Nearly all teaching and research hospitals take Medicaid, and their docs are always quite good. Don’t mean to be bossy; just thought it might be a possibility.

With the world moving in so many directions, including our still-confused country, I imagine most of us writing on this site won’t live to see the huge changes we’re seeking, but we nevertheless keep at it, like you do. In Paul Krugman’s column today, he noted that Obama’s people are shocked, SHOCKED, at the flack they’ve been getting from the progressive left among their party on this public health plan’s non-progress. I can’t imagine why they are shocked, as Obama talked so much about it in the presidential campaign.  I wrote all the Dems representing us in Congress as well as those state legislators (who are cutting so many health services to people on Medical as well as children), in pretty harsh terms, telling them that if they can’t get us a public health option with their majorities to work with, I’d never vote for a Democrat again, even if Attila the Hun was on the opposing ticket, and would vote for socialist/populist candidates in the primaries.

My hope is that Obama’s undeniable intelligence will tell him that if he wants to be reelected he will have to move mountains to get that plan, do whatever it takes and more if necessary.

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By Anarcissie, August 21, 2009 at 1:05 pm Link to this comment

I haven’t come across any record of a commitment by Eisenhower or anyone working for him to use American military force in Vietnam.  Nixon and others wanted to do this, but Eisenhower was extremely dubious about “getting involved in a war on the land mass of Asia” as I believe the saying goes.  After all, the Korean War had contributed substantially to the defeat of his competitors.

I think the numbers—1100 and 17,000—tell the story.

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By Shenonymous, August 21, 2009 at 12:59 pm Link to this comment

Good Day Night Gaunt,  Everyone is either a Moralist or an Immoralist
or, and there is one more very important category: The Amoralist. The amoralist
is one who does not think morals exists at all in objective reality and that the
concepts of moral right and wrong have no essential meaning.  If the amoralist
has any moral values, it is because they have created their own sense of
principles and sees some significance to behaving a certain way within the
milieu of a society.  There is no absolute existence of any moral laws.  However,
it is not necessary to hold a belief that right and wrong in the sense of truth
and falsehood do not exist.  They just do not exist as objects.  They are
constructions.  Amorality ought not to be confused with immorality.  While the
amoralist denies the existence of morality, the immoral person violates a
certain moral code, and continues to believe there is an underlying truth of that
moral code.  Neither do amoralists possess ethical notions possibly resulting
from a lack in their family nurturing or from an inborn or inherent trait, nor do
they subscribe to any particular moral code.  To say there is a moral code is
evidential the morals were constructed by the society in which they appear. 
The amoralist argues that moral systems are arbitrary and ideal morals are
without foundation except as created by social consent within a society.  In
which of these three conditions of morality do you see yourself Night-
Gaunt
?  No need to answer, it is just a rhetorical question.

The immoral person, as one who does not abide by the moral code created by
social consent believes certain behaviors are wrong, but they disregard it
because they do not think codified laws applies directly to themselves and
could even harbor sinister motives which bring pleasure from breaking the
rules.  Michael Vick and his torturing dogs, or jailers at Guantanamo or Abu
Grave, or pulling the wings off of a living butterfly, for instance.  Amoral
persons are likely to control behavior if it would present personal danger or
punishment associated with it.  That fear, however, does not instill any reality
to general principle. General principles are created specifically to act as models
to which behaviors are then measured, therefore there are degrees of violation
and degrees of punishment.  For certain behaviors to gain value for the
amoralist, they must be seen to have a sufficient reason for it.

For the amoralist, right and wrong are subjective and are determined solely by
personal preference, a choice to do the right thing that results in no harm to
another individual.  Hence, guilt is meaningless.  The choice to be “moral” can
be seen to be more valuable since no threat is forcing any behavior.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 21, 2009 at 11:43 am Link to this comment

“We try to tell ourselves that intelligence is what is important, and then we are forced to look at the presidency…..lol”KDelphi

Intelligence is a facet of a personality but less important than if you have empathy and social intelligence. Even so if you have no empathy it is very hard to act like you have it. Psychopaths have none so no remorse whatever they do to another. Manufactured psychopaths get that way and those who want to be like them are out there. Many of them in top areas of academia, military, churches and gov’t to lay out how things should be for the rest of us.

Intelligence is neutral until it is used by a moralist or immoralist. Too often I see people who mistake intelligence, like running fast, for having an intrinsic point of view. It does not.

Barack Obama is probably one of the most intelligent presidents we have had
(save Bill Clinton who was a Rhodes Scholar, did you even know that?). Obama
is not however a god, which you and your Leftist cohorts and the Rightists
expect.  The inability to perceive that is a function of poor upbringing, poor
education, lack of critical thinking and racism, I say.”
Shenonymous

The only ones I see hoisting Obama on that Olympean petard are his critics who have their game to play. Making Obama look better than them while he continues the Cabal’s dirty work. The higher you are the farther you fall dictum. What leftists do you mean? Too many were caught up in the group hypnosis and awful predicament we are in and invest him with too much emotional based veracity than he ever showed in reality.

As for Obama‘s intelligence then see in the first paragraph on that subject.

The human bombers are caught up in the gloss of martyrdom and going into the battle as a David to defeat the Goliath with little more than a sling shot. (One that explodes.) They accept the idea of existence ofter death so killing themselves is easier.

The rare times it happened on the Allies side in World War II it was considered noble to do it. But now that the shoe is on the other foot it is called cowardly. What it is is desperation in asymmetrical warfare.

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By Shenonymous, August 21, 2009 at 10:45 am Link to this comment

So now my morals are in question KDelphi?  How petty.  How else can
you insult me?  Especially in view that my comments are not read for what they
are, but reinvented for self-serving purposes!  How reactive! How preachy!  I do
not hate the world.  Quite the contrary.  I teach my students to think for
themselves and maybe if others did that whether they are professional teachers
or not, this world would be able to right itself and walk on its two legs instead
of dragging its ass as it crawls out of a warren.  I give them good arguments
for universal health care, single-payer health care, and not-for-profit health
care and the idea that health care IS a human right.  Who else here is doing
anything like that except preach to their own limited choir so they can pat
themselves on the back but do nothing to promote it in MarthaA’s
“Common Population.” 

Maybe I took issue with you KDelphi for when you first showed up
on the TD forums (I had seen you at CommonDreams before that), you seemed
like you were an independent thinker, and not prey to the usual group think.
But as I continued to read your repetitive complaints on this and a couple of
other forums about this country, its dismal health care (it is that!), its economy,
and whatever else was bothering you, (such as the huge argument you had with
ITW over Ayn Rand’s objectivism) I just figured that this world has many views,
each entitled to their own.  But when those views are paraded as the epitome of
morality, and that other’s are immoral, well na uh.  That isn’t going to wash. 
How dare you belittle my morals?  I am truly sorry about your health condition,
but that does not give you the right to walk all over my morals and invent the
idea that I have none!  You are deficient when you say I think this forum is a
classroom.  But let’s say it is true, you should feel lucky that you are finally
getting an education even though you have a Master’s Degree!

Barack Obama is probably one of the most intelligent presidents we have had
(save Bill Clinton who was a Rhodes Scholar, did you even know that?).  Obama
is not however a god, which you and your Leftist cohorts and the Rightists
expect.  The inability to perceive that is a function of poor upbringing, poor
education, lack of critical thinking and racism, I say. 

I make no mistaking anything for a cabal.  A Contingent is a different thing. 
Cabals are secret organizations.  The Contingent here makes no secret as to its
stickey and partisan alliances.

My brother died four years ago.  He was the most rational Republican I’ve ever
known.  If it is even possible for it not to be an oxymoron to say he was a
genuine compassionate Republican.  A rare bird who took my liberalism in
stride and tried to show me the errors of my ways, and we used to laugh!  Well
that is neither here nor there and we all miss him terribly.  He was a resident of
Florida too.  A manager for Martin Aeronautics in Pinellas Park, I don’t know if
he browsed the Keys very much except for a vacation or two when his kids
were growing up.  His brain tumor ran down his life very fast.  Do you think
your Medicaid doctor won’t do the exploration because he is a Medicaid doctor
or is there a real doctor at a real major medical center that would?  Have you
checked it out?  What is your Medicaid doctor actively doing to help you?  He
ought to be able at least to refer you to someone.  Seems to me that would be
the most important thing right now.

Speaking about blowing oneself up is pitiable talk even as a joke.  While the
self-immolating Buddhists and the suicide bombers of the Middle Eastern
persuasion may be making what they perceived to be a principled protest, it is
still irrational.  A step into primitivism.

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By KDelphi, August 21, 2009 at 9:27 am Link to this comment

Thank you, people. I know what you say about She, etc. For some reason, of all the “hate the world” crowd, only her comments bothered me , maybe because she was here when I first came here and she seemed like she had morals to match her intelligence at the time. She seemed calmer when cyrena was doing the attacking, disappeared for awhile and now seems back to knock down anyone who goes off her topic. She thinks that this is her classroom.

We try to tell ourselves that intelligence is what is important, and then we are forced to look at the presidency…..lol

Folktruther—thank you for saying so—I appreciate that right now, especially when I heard how long it has probably been there…I still know that the goals I have for humanity (as so many others do—-apparently not enough yet) are on the right side of history. I’d like to live to see it but that is not totally important.

Sepharad—I thought of horses too and dolphins I used to swim with in the Keys (that is where I was supposed to move for my new job—Key Largo)~! (that is why I would really rather not be asked whether I am “working”)Thanks you for bringing it up. The thing is, they dont know if its malignant unless they go in and the “dr” I have on Medicaid is afraid top go into the cranium. Drs at major med centers might give it a try, but very expensive, would drain my family’s money (I have two sick sisters)and I woul prob end up like my poor daddy anyway. Cant/wont do that. He was working 80 hrs a wk at the time and went down so fast he didnt have time to do advance directives and I couldnt get alone with him long enough to help.BTW—I dont think that I have RA—amazingly enough, the dr thinks that the tumor has been affecting my neuro-muscular function—it can cause painful muscles and movement, especialy on one side—wondered why it wasnt considered gout since it was mostly on the left….

truedigger3—thanks. I honestly wasnt looking for sympathy, as you know that doesnt help, but people that spend all of what may be very precious time attacking others and calling them stupid, etc might want to think that sometimes, other issues are involved.

She—Maybe the “cabal” you mistake is a cabal that contains compassion that you do not understand. I am sorry that your brother had to go through this—nothing quite like feeling as if your brain is invaded, even when youre stupid. The worst part is knot being able to decide what to do except on the basis of finances!! If we had the type of universal care that civilizations have, I wouldnt be worrying about, either trusting a non-bd certified bumble or spending up my family’s small savings—they are threatening to force me but I will not go through all that and end up like my daddy anyway. I have contacted an Uncle in Denmark who is looking into possible treatment there—that would be great!(nice place to spend last days anyway) But isnt that HORRIBLE that I have to DO THAT?! (If I can—apparently alot of US ex-pats try this)If you want to do something, teach your students that health care is a human right.

Because it surely is..I could always blow myself up at the America’s Health Insurasnce Plans building or the Senate Finance Comm or even a Town hall Mtg, if the plan they were offering was worth being blown up for—in the meantime…SANDERS CALLS HIMSELF A SOCIALIST AND MARTAA IS A SOPHIST…whew

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By Rontruth, August 21, 2009 at 9:00 am Link to this comment

All of the 16,480 “troops” that were in Vietnam on September 14, 1963 when the late Walter Cronkite interviewed President Kennedy who had by that t ime made the decision to pull OUT of South Vietnam and essentially said so to Cronkite, were then called “advisors.” They trained and advised the South Vietnamese military.

On October 11, 1963, Kennedy signed, but, and fatefully so, ordered within National security Action Memorandum 263, that the document be kept secret. Had it been made public, Kennedy would likely have lived to a ripe old age and died of natural causes. Under Kennedy’s order, three plane loads of the advisors landed at 1:30 PM, Central Standard Time, November 22, 1963. This was 1/2 hour after President Kennedy had been declared dead at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Texas. Abolute proof that his withdrawal order was real.

At http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com, in a handwritten letter to a close friend, JFK assassin, James Earl Sutton (Files), states that leading co-sonspirator, General Edward Landsdale, the head of the covert operatrions unit at the Pentagon, in collaboration with the CIA’s William King Harvey, had put together the multiple elements of National Security Action Memorandum, 273, which did in fact reverse Kennedy’s withdrawal order (NSAM 263).

#273 only left in one totally out of context statement from Kennedy’s NSAM 263, to make it look like they were continuing Kennedy’s withdrawal order, when the entire rest of the document is a complete reversal of the withdrawal order. Such were, and still are the ways of the lying CIA and the rest of the covert operations apparatus that are run by the government under pressure from Eisenhower’s “military-(intelligence)-industiral complex). Files states that the document, NSAM 273 was first drafted five days BEFORE “Kennedy’s fateful day.”

Files names individuals long before their names became public, and whom he could not have known had he not been directly involved in the Kennedy killing. He was in contact directly with Nixon’s CIA henchman, Frank Sturgis who became a member of Nixon’s WH “Plumbers Unit,” to stop leaks of information from the WH.

Sturgis was a CIA/mob connected anti-Castro Cuban exile who had at one time been one of Castro’s “12th of July Movement” fighters. He was kn own by his comrades as “Commandante Fiorini” until he discovered that Castro was a communist. He was very influential as a leader of Operation 40 taht was set up up under orders of Vice Presidentr Nixon in late 1959 to remove Castro by whatever means necessary.

When Kennedy pulled the plug on the Bay of Pigs invasion, and made the deal with Russia to get the missiles removed from Cuba, Sturgis, and a group of the best assassins the CIA could never have paid enough for (in their own eyes, that is) turned their guns on Kennedy whom they saw as standing in their way of removing Fidel from power in Cuba.

They were funded by the fundraising efforts of two Texas businessmen, both of whom had lost $millions from the loss of the Texcaco offshore oil rigs that their Zapata Offshore Oil had the service contracts for. They were Bill Liedke and George H. W. Bush.
Both were CIA assets, belonging to a special unit for participants who had personal reasons for cooperating with the Agency’s covert operations.

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By Shenonymous, August 21, 2009 at 6:50 am Link to this comment

Perhaps MarthaA Not having arrived at voting age yet and a few years
away, I was aghast at the images on TV of the self-immolation of Buddhists
protesting against the Catholic Diem regime that once had been fervently
supported by “Senator” Jack Kennedy. When Kennedy became President, he
rapidly escalated the U.S. military involvement in support of Diem’s Catholic
regime. Later when Diem’s persecution of the Buddhists began to be heavily
criticized in world opinion, Kennedy had to choose between supporting his
church’s effort or promoting his own political career. He chose to pressure
Diem to let up on the persecutions. Diem’s Buddhist generals took the
opportunity to assassinate Diem. Three weeks later Kennedy was assassinated. 
The Kennedy administration had no problem with Diem, the real problem was
with his brother Nhu. I particularly recall seeing Madam Nhu a self-exile in
Paris, living it up, and commenting for the benefit of the press (the world)
about the Vietnamese Buddhists as “Let them Barbeque themselves” her very
words in her stylish sunglasses as they ring clear in my internal ear after more
than 40 years! The State Dept. wanted to give Diem a chance to rid himself of
Nhu and replace him with the military and political personalities.

The historical basis for self-immolation is fuzzy at best. The idea of sacrifice is
a key in Buddhist thought and self-immolation is easily thought to be a
supreme form of sacrifice. However difficult it might be to totally cognize such
a quintessential violent act directed upon the self, it is believed that self-
immolation can be traced back in
history for thousands of years. It is believed that the practice of self-
immolation may be connected to the ritual of burning incense on one’s body as
a form of vow taking.  If that is true, can one equate the smell of incense with
the smell of human flesh burning?  Shall we say it is in this day and age, only a
metaphor.

What would it mean to speak about the smell of burning flesh with respect to
the legacy given to Americans by the decades of Republican wars?  Isn’t suicide
bombing happening today an equivalent act of protest against but also itself a
sign of man’s inhumanity to man? 

On June 16, 1963, before the assassination of John Kennedy, Buddhist monk,
Quang Duc’s self-immolation had a huge and amazingly lasting effect on the
South Vietnamese population. It is not surprising that heinous act also affected
the Americans who later unprecedentedly immolated themselves in protest to
the war.  The use of self-immolation continued as the war continued after the
Kennedy murder into the Johnson years.  In May 1966, Thich Nu Thanh Quang,
a Buddhist nun, immolated herself in the city of Hue.  Her death sparked a
deep-rooted protest demonstration against the oppression of the
governmental “elite,” who had helped the occupying French assisted by the
West, of twenty thousand people in Saigon and a series of eight other self-
immolations by Buddhist bonzes and nuns throughout the major cities of
Vietnam. President Johnson innocuously called the suicides “tragic and
unnecessary” and said that they obstructed progress towards holding the
elections for a constituent assembly.  The Iranis and Afghans might take a
lesson from those bravest Southeast Asian protesters.  On May 31, a group of
students and Buddhist youths burned down the U.S. consulate in Hue.  But time
heals all wounds, right? 

In 2003 a report from the National Security Archives, a tape of President
Kennedy and his advisers, confirmed that top U.S. officials sought the
November 1, 1963 coup against then-South Vietnamese leader Diem without
apparently considering the physical consequences for Diem personally who
was murdered the following day! The taped meeting shows that U.S. officials,
including JFK, overestimated their ability to control the South Vietnamese
generals who ran the coup.

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By truedigger3, August 21, 2009 at 6:49 am Link to this comment

Re: MarthaA, August 21 at 7:44 am #

Anarcissie in his post of August 21 at 8:35 am #, wrote what almost I wanted to write with the exception that the limited number of US personnel at the start of Kennedy’s prisdency were just military trainers and new equipment maintenance support.
Kennedy added US “advisers” who were attached to combat units in the field and increased their number tremendously as Anarcissie mentioned.
Kennedy gave the green light to CIA sponsored coup that resulted in the murder of the recalcitrant president Nego Diem of Vietnam and his brother and replacing him with a government composed of compliant generals.

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By MarthaA, August 21, 2009 at 6:32 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie,

Fear of Communism abounded as Communism was being demonized by the Capitalists, and the 5-Star General Republican President Eisenhower signed a commitment committing the United States to the Vietnam War, before he left office, which leaves the democratic administration to either being soft on Communism and afraid of war, should he denounce Eisenhower’s commitment to the trash, which would have destroyed him politically, or to follow suit, so he continued the former administration war, there were a few U.S. military killed under Eisenhower, who had ratcheted up the war before leaving office, and like President Obama, Kennedy inherited that war.

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By Anarcissie, August 21, 2009 at 5:35 am Link to this comment

MarthaA:
‘To say Kennedy started the Vietnam War is pedantic parsing, Vietnam was a French colony under French rule that the French were exploiting and the Vietnamese kicked out the French, then through reasoning of Eisenhower’s “domino effect” pitting Capitalism against Communism, the United States committed to assisting the French, the commitment had been made, so when Kennedy got in McNamara took off after the Vietnamese with the Green Berets, but it was actually Eisenhower who initially got the United States involved in the Vietnam War being an extension of World War 2 , the Korean War and the Cold War. ...’

When people say “The Vietnam War” in the U.S. they are usually referring to the U.S. direct combat involvement there, which began under Kennedy.  On the day he took office there were about 1100 American military people there, all of them observers or advisors.  On the day he died, there were 17,000 American troops there, many of them involved in combat operations.  Whether Kennedy would have expanded the war the way Johnson did is open to debate; nobody knows.  But his advisors and appointees, like Bundy and Macnamara, were certainly pushing in that direction.

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By truedigger3, August 21, 2009 at 5:15 am Link to this comment

Re:Rontruth, August 20 at 9:05 pm #

I think I explained very clearly, in my post of August 20 at 8:44 pm, the difference between studying history and learning from it, and trying to find conspiracies anywhere and everywhere in history.
I mentioned the disadvantage of talking about conspiracies 24/7 and the resulting “conspiracies fatigue”.
If after all of that, you insist of beinge sarcastic, funny and cute, then that is your prerogative but let me tell you that you are not funny and I don’t know cute you are!!

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By MarthaA, August 21, 2009 at 4:44 am Link to this comment

truedigger3 8/18 8:26am,

To say Kennedy started the Vietnam War is pedantic parsing, Vietnam was a French colony under French rule that the French were exploiting and the Vietnamese kicked out the French, then through reasoning of Eisenhower’s “domino effect” pitting Capitalism against Communism, the United States committed to assisting the French, the commitment had been made, so when Kennedy got in McNamara took off after the Vietnamese with the Green Berets, but it was actually Eisenhower who initially got the United States involved in the Vietnam War being an extension of World War 2 , the Korean War and the Cold War.

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_history_vietnam_french.php

President Eisenhower wrote to the new Prime Minister of the Bao Dai government, Ngo Dinh Diem, in September 1954, promising U.S. support for a non-Communist Vietnam.

http://www.lycos.com/info/dwight-eisenhower—wars.html?page=3

April 7, 1954 - Dwight D. Eisenhower coined one of the most famous Cold War phrases when he suggests the fall of French Indochina to the communists could create a “domino” effect in Southeast Asia. The so-called “domino theory” dominated U.S. thinking about Vietnam for the next decade; spent much of the speech explaining the significance of Vietnam to the United States: 1) economic importance, “the specific value of a locality in its production of materials that the world needs” (materials such as rubber, jute, and sulphur), 2) “possibility that many human beings pass under a dictatorship that is inimical to the free world”, 3) broader considerations that might follow what you would call the ‘falling domino’ principle” (led to disintegration in Southeast Asia, with the “loss of Indochina, of Burma, of Thailand, of the Peninsula, and Indonesia following.” Eisenhower suggested that even Japan, which needed Southeast Asia for trade, would be in danger) of Communist rule.

May 8-18, 1957 - Diem pays a state visit to Washington where President Eisenhower labels him the “miracle man” of Asia and reaffirms U.S. commitment. “The cost of defending freedom, of defending America, must be paid in many forms and in many places…military as well as economic help is currently needed in Vietnam,” Eisenhower states.

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/vietnam/index-1945.html

Eisenhower cautioned about the Military Industrial Complex taking over; here is a url that explains as well as I’ve seen the Military Industrial Complex:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military-industrial_complex —The concept was also used by U.S. businessman and Secretary of Defense Charles E. Wilson to refer to an institutionalized war economy —ie. a semi-command-type economy which is directed by corporation executives, based on military industry, and funded by state social spending. The term refers to the economic component within the Military-industrial complex (MIC) (aka. “the Iron Triangle”) whereby the collusion between militarism and war profiteering are manifest as a permanently subsidised industry.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_war_economy

Democrats always get wars to deal with following Republican EXTREMISTS, which Republicans invariably try to pin on the Democrats since a new administration can’t just turn around after a mess has been caused, but Republicans continually propagandize that a new democratic president can, but it is never so for the Republicans,  turning a nation in an about face is most difficult.  I am definitely in favor of getting out of these Bush occupations if we can get out and not have strengthened the enemy, as the United States has made enemies.  It was an awful thing the Bush administration did by attacking Afghanistan and Iraq, because the Republicans caused a quagmire that can easily be overtaken now by Russia, as Russia was trying to take over Afghanistan in the first place.

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By truedigger3, August 21, 2009 at 4:33 am Link to this comment

KDelphi,

I am very sorry about your illness , hope everything turns out OK for you and I wish you all the best.

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By Shenonymous, August 20, 2009 at 11:59 pm Link to this comment

This is how things can get to be so bad.  Here is a miniature model of the way
the world works.  And here to say it like it is, comes the superrealist, the very
unnice guy, the unsentimentalist, who nonetheless expressed deep and
genuine sorrow, but was demeaned for it even in view of the invective spewed
at her.

The Contingent has showed up!  It was expected.  Way to go guys.  Now we can
get some better group think going again.  In Freud’s theory of crowd
psychology, he says that the minds of a group inevitably merge together to
form a particular way of thinking.  It is obvious by the comments that are
dribbling in, that each of your enthusiasm to disparage scorned targets will
increase and will result in more hostility and in your becoming less aware of
the true nature of your own actions   Cool mon.  In that way, the crowd
currently composed of KDelphi, Ammon Drivel, and Folksytroother, may
foster a sort of anonymity and as a byproduct shall easily generate a “madding
crowd”. The relationship within this newly arrived crowd will promote increased
irrationality and the individual members will actually propagandize each other
tending to cohere the group even closer.  A set of reinforcing communal beliefs
will spontaneously arise that will gives the group a feeling of power and that
demonizing others who point out the weak and peculiar beliefs of either the
group itself, or individuals of the group is justified.  (Ammon Drool I
hafta say that I have no need to attack anyone, but I do fight back. You
obviously cannot read for comprehension.) Second parenthetical:
(Folktruther why am I not surprised at your inability to express truly real
and sincere sympathy without resisting taking a potshot at me?  Back to the
name-calling are you?  You are helpless before the beast.  As I’ve said to you
before, the washing machine mind that I have leaves me with clean and sharp
thoughts which may float ready to the top but yours is down the paltry drain
sweetie)

The herd instincts emerging here are not out of rationality and real truth, but is
out of a convergence of a simmering dissatisfaction with some aspect of your
own life.  The usual and also expected childish practice of name-calling and
expressed juvenile theory of the diabolic “heartlessness, crooked kind of
thinking, and so-called attention seeking” of the hated scapegoats (ahem, me,
the potamus Shenonymous and the hated invented “others”: Louise
the Most Rational
, and most definitely the Blatantly Outspoken and
Articulate MarthaA
listed by your bosom buddy truedigger3) that has
impatiently been waiting to sprout now has its moment.  This is due to your
lack of mature debating skills and they are your battle cries.  Already we see
what more defined roles you each are taking on. 

I’m so glad to have been the catalyst that allows you to emerge from your pupa
stage.  I shall sleep well tonight knowing I did the Contingent such a service.

All that theatrical bluster being said…

Brain tumors are nothing to minimize and I offer my sincere sorrow that this
has happened to you KDelphi.  My beloved brother Richard was stricken
with a brain tumor.  His was malignant.  For the most part, save the nasty way
this forum has gone for us (you and me), we have had many interesting and
gratifying discussions in an effort to understand the world we live in.  You
know our history.  Perhaps we on TD can start a fund that would help you seek
the best care available?  I am well aware you do not have much in the way of
financial resources.  I don’t know how that could be arranged but I certainly
would be happy to make a contribution.

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By Sepharad, August 20, 2009 at 11:05 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi—You didn’t say whether the tumor was malignant, but even if it isn’t it’s not good giving you blurred vision, headaches, etc. If I’m not wrong, I think you also told me once you, like me, have rheumatoid arthritis which is plenty to deal with all by itself without a brain tumor thrown in. You say you suspect it might have been affecting your thinking, but for as long as I’ve been on this site anyway, your thought processes function just fine. Not to mention your tactfulness trying not to hurt anyone else’s feelings even when you hold an opposite opinion. Hell, you even stay on topic!!!

I don’t know where you live—Ohio?—but from other exchanges we’ve had you like horses. A lot. There have got to be some around somewhere you can play with. Just touching a horse, in my experience, is right up there with being hugged by someone you love.

I have a close Israeli friend who named her gelding “Mensa”. I asked her why, and Toby said “because if I call him that long enough he might think he should learn faster.”  (He did seem to get smarter over the years, but that probably just came from experience, as it does for most of us.)

I have no idea why socialists and greens and all the rest of us progressives can’t have more effect in American politics. Lots of progressives in the media, some in politics, lots and lots of them seem to have plenty of money, there are many in academia ... you’d think that by now we’d be forging ahead with the Dem majority in Congress.

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By Folktruther, August 20, 2009 at 9:59 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi, let me also extend my sympathies over your bad news. I was as shocked as Amon was on seeing it.  I’ve always admired and respected you, you know.

Don’t worry about Shenonymous; she just has a washing machine mind.  What’s ever on top at the time is what you see.  Some people just can’t think straight; Shenon is one of those.  But she makes some interesting curves now and again.  Combined with vitriol.

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By KDelphi, August 20, 2009 at 8:07 pm Link to this comment

Amon Drool—thanks. I only brought it up because I think that it has been effecting me for many years. I am not an academic, but I worked real hard to get an MS after dropping out of high school—I’ve never seen teachers responding this way. Its bad form.Dr says maybe 20-25 yrs its been there , growing. Its slow growing, but, my dad died of a malignant one—he was almost 30 yrs older than I am now!
But you get blurred vision, heaadaches (you think its stress) and memory loss—who thinks brain tumor?

I do wonder what else someone must have in their life to constantly attack others. I know that most here disagree with me from time to time (some, alwasy) but I never understand why it becomes personal for people when I haven not attacked them in any way. A teacher calling someone “stupidly wrong”?? Glad I had profs that knew better and were willing to work with a high school dropout.

Not Ivy League, but I’d put my Quaker profs up against thesse bloviators anytime. My sister would NEVER talk to someone like that and she is probably the most intellgent person I know..but she is secure in her life

I have some decisions to make—maybe,—and theyre tough ones.I wont go the way my dad did. But that is not the concern of people here. But perhaps my point is that people should think before they tell other people how “stupid” they think that they are—especially when they do not know them. cyrena and she used to be quite a tag team here….

Says more about them than the other person. I wont speculate about what they dont have, but, if you have no heart I guess its a good thing that youre smart, right? (many people have both, but….)But my whole family is full of academics and they certainly dont talk to other people like that.

I dont know what else to say about it, but I have been fighting for more equality and, especially, health care for many years as a social worker—now it is terribly personal. But I wont quit until I’m dead. If we had universal health care, the decisions would be alot easier…but I saw clients have to make these kinds of decisions for years, and I’ve seen alot of bravery in people who had had very little not to be bitter for, so I hope to live up to their example.

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By Amon Drool, August 20, 2009 at 6:40 pm Link to this comment

kdelphi…what a punch in the gut to hear of your not so good news.  even tho i haven’t always agreed with u, i’ve always found your voice to be one of the spunkier, fresher ones here at TD. 2 of the people who have gone at u the hardest, cyrena and shenon, are both academics.  one wonders about their need to attack u.  could it be that u still have something that they know they have lost?  anyway, i just felt i hadda say something after your disclosure…all the best.

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By Rontruth, August 20, 2009 at 6:05 pm Link to this comment

Truedigger3,
Thanks much for the understanding and advice. In your opening statement you gave the real reason for my concern. That was worth more than all the words that describe all the historically connected conspiracies that we know exist, due to the evidence that so few have bothered to study.

Are there any words of wisdom that you can give the others in this forum of otherwise constant bitch (oops. I meant back-biting)-biting that will give the others, and those who just read these postings, that will motivate them to study their own country’s history so they can use it to help them determine how to truly read between the lines of news and politicians’ statements? History can be in fact used to predict the future in many instances.

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By Anarcissie, August 20, 2009 at 5:53 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther:
‘Anarcissie, its not just working class people voting for limonsine liberals or conservatives.  Everyone tends to identify with power rather than the people ruled by power.  As Freud pointed out in his analysis of religious delusions in FUTURE OF AN ILLUSION, this is partly a biological phenomenon.’

True, but one can hope it is not biologically determined, because otherwise we wouldn’t see any resistance to it.

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By Shenonymous, August 20, 2009 at 5:45 pm Link to this comment

Oh, and for each of us, our real name is Grace, uh… so we are The Three Graces.

Ooops, sorry girls, I gave it away.

Here is a song just for you truedigger3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ze2kTGoiIM

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By truedigger3, August 20, 2009 at 5:44 pm Link to this comment

Re: Rontruth, August 20 at 10:39 am #,

I love studying history and I agree with you it is the best teacher to people if they knew history.
Yes, as I said, there are some mysterious events that could be interpreted as a part of a conspiracy, however, talking all the time about conspiracies, and finding conspiracies and conspirators everywhere and every time is not studying and learning from history.
It will be counter-productive and will plant the seed of confusion with all those theories and counter theories floating around.  People might get “conspiracies fatigue” and when something serious happens coupled with well informed opinion, people will just shrug it off as just “another conspiracy theory”

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By Shenonymous, August 20, 2009 at 5:31 pm Link to this comment

An afterdinner mint for truedigger3 - you are a misogynist who almost
has it together… now and then.

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By truedigger3, August 20, 2009 at 5:20 pm Link to this comment

TO WHOM IT MAY APPLY,

I noticed most of this thread today was devoted by you to rebut Shenonymous and her drivel and rantings.
But, you good people, are given her what she wants and craves which is constant attention.
In my humble opinion, she and MarthaA and louise are hopeless cases.
MarthaA and louise are hopelessly partisan and their minds are already made up and are set in concrete and no amount of discussion will get to them.
Shenonymou does not believe in any thing but wants constant attention badly and she will do anything to get it.

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By KDelphi, August 20, 2009 at 5:03 pm Link to this comment

She—I was trying to return to work part time (PASS program) but I sure as hell dont think that I will be now. I had an offer and was preparing to move. I worked for as long as you have Shenonyomous, if your 20 yrs is accurate.

I thought it was “over” for you last time. And you say that I have to “be right”.

I wasnt speaking to you (I addressed someone else, or, I generally address the entire forum)so why you chose to junmp in with such gusto when I just said socialist instead of Dem Soc still baffles me. I dont diagnose anyone online. I wasnt trying to diagnose you, just, honestly trying to figure out why I anger you so much. If it is not anger, it is certainly a sharp tongue and using it on people over a word processor (I mean, its about all you do on here and its always directed at specific persons)seems cowartdly to me. I directed nothing towards you, only responded

I have been corrected by many people on the forum and admitted I was wrong. Maybe I just expect a little better out of someone I think is so intelligent, but dont worry, I dont now.

There is more to life than being intellectually correct all of the time.

Thanks for your “symparthies” and your inquiry as to whether I am working.(nice touch) It seem to be inoperable but if I choose to soak my family for med bills I might be able to get a dr at a major med center to do a craniotomy. I dont think that I want to do that.

If I sound angry myself, perhaps that is why.

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By Shenonymous, August 20, 2009 at 4:28 pm Link to this comment

Seems like I have a few more comments to go here,KDelphi

I do not have a crystal ball, and would have no way of knowing if you had a
brain tumor or a hemorroid.  Farts come out of the other end too (you know,
the ass).  I do care and it is pathetic that you insert your brand of madness
about whether I care or not.  You can only read up to the end of your last
conceited sentence, apparently.  If you are having a bull shit attack get a shovel
and start digging around your own computer because that where it is deep. 
Since you are seen on almost all of the forums the question is KDelphi if
you work for a living?  Try diagnosing your self.  For me, it is summer break
and I have much time to devote to squeeze in the pleasantries of TD. You
attempt to reduce everyone to the lowest common denominator and one is not
ever to question the sophists or they and you will slice and dice the upstart
every which way they can.  Perhaps I do cause a sharply unpleasant, and
stinging sensation but you are unable to perceive that it is not out of animosity,
but out of disgust at the pretenses that occur as a continuum on these forums.

You do not seem to be able to make fine distinctions of words. You said
“Sure there are no real Socialists in the Senate, but I think that we’d be a lot
better off if there were, you probably don’t .OK. But why are you so angry?”

First of all you are asking and answering a question you seem to be asking me! 
Cute to answer it the way you want to hear it.  That way you can paint me as a
culprit!  Then you assume because I criticize that I am angry.  Criticism and
anger are quite different animals of thought.  Maybe you grew up in a family
that did not make the differentiation.  The way you do that convinces me you
are not to be dealt with on a rational basis.  Third, I have never ever implied I
was better than you. Again, you set me up as the demon so you can make
yourself look good, I see that as a case of the poor me syndrome.  I don’t
apologize for being educated and that is not the first time nor you the first
person I have had to say that to on the TD forums. For some reason, TD
attracts the disgruntled and poorly educated who have an absolute resentment
toward the educated. For that I am sorry. 

I am truly sorry you are afflicted with an intercranial tumor.  It is my fervent
hope it is treatable and that your life will not be impaired to any significant
degree.  I further regret our interaction escalated to a level of derangement it
has and I own up to my part in it.  I don’t attempt to make pretty or popular
statements.  It isn’t a ladylike trait and I fiercely defend myself when my
character is impugned while no cogent argument is submitted against my
views.  It is a petty way of dispute and I won’t have myself berated. 
Nevertheless, for me it is over.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 20, 2009 at 2:45 pm Link to this comment

When a group starts brandishing pointed objects it should be as no surprise when people get poked. Sheath the weapons please. I am sorry you have such a diagnosis KDelphi but you should let Shenonymous tell you whether she cares or not. One of my personality traits is to be able to use the language to act as a diplomat. It seems the thing to do. We don’t have to love each other but we can respect each other. We can disagree without being disagreeable can’t we? True, when we are stuck by that pointed end we all do bleed. [Sorry Shakespeare.] I am sorry for the vituperation I see. Unlike most animals we have the brain equipment to not escalate to something more animalistic. Decorum isn’t just for show, it is for the ability of all of us in all our myriad points to come together without drawing those swords on the sward and hacking away to make our point the only one. Though not everyone’s point is of the same caliber it is up to all of us to prove our points and let others decide as to their validity. Such is one of the non-animalistic uses for our cerebral cortex.

May you all rectify your disagreements in an amicable and equanimous way.

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By KDelphi, August 20, 2009 at 2:16 pm Link to this comment

She—I am not being “poor me”, I have just recently been Dx with a brain tumor so I think that might cause some brain farts.I know that you dont care and it is not an excuse.But what is an excuse is that you think that you can do it online, becaUSE
“that is your business” What bullshit. Are your at work here? Or are you ever not at work? I am licensed to diagnose but I wont do that with you—its most unprofessional, although not noting your anger is impossible. I suspect it has nothing to do with anyone here.

You are a very bitter person and despite your intelligence, I dont give a rats ass what you think anymore—boy that feels better!

A statistic is not an opinion, btw.If you are “better than me” it is in educational matters only-you use your intellect as a weapon and it makes you impossible to respect these days.

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By ardee, August 20, 2009 at 2:13 pm Link to this comment

We are, all of us , entitled to our own opinion. We are even entitled to interpret the opinions of others in our own way.

shenonymous seems hell bent on ignoring the numerous clues and allegations within the posts of my favorite Martian, that is her right. But it does seem a bit peculiar when those allegations include the boasting of bringing down other left wing forums for not agreeing with her own brand of political insanity ( her supposed brother said that), when it includes the denigration of every single opposing opinion and the labeling of those who dare to post such as “sophistry” and the individuals as Republican agents. When it denigrates Greens on one hand then calls for third parties on the other, and still later denies ever supporting that movement.

Why this defender of “fair play” wishes to ignore the unfairness and tear into those who note it, those who respond to being called liars and trolls, plants and propagandists is also a mystery. Methinks something stinks in Denmark…..

Martha, rather recently responded to the noting of capitalization as shouting on this medium, noting that it serves to propagandize her opinions, to commit them to the memory of others in a subconscious fashion….I cannot be the only one to find that oddity number 376 in the history of this persons postings….

I do not believe that the solutions to what ails this nation lie within the Democratic Party. I have also made perfectly clear that I do not seek it in the GOP either. Yet this ‘outrageous’ stance brands me with a string of insulting associations, yet shenonymous finds no problem with those insults, only with my own responses.

I have not been posting here long enough to understand her history or her ability to insult while denigrating the insults of others but, in the end, that is her problem and not mine. Why she chose to lambast a newbie, Jennifer Bedingfield, is also a mystery wrapped in a hypocrisy.

I will continue to give as I receive, polite debate for the same, insult for the same. I ,at least , am consistent . What shenonymous is just isnt yet clear to me. I do, I think, have a clear vision of exactly what MarthaA certainly appears to be.

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By Shenonymous, August 20, 2009 at 1:52 pm Link to this comment

Just stop the “poor me” KDelphi.  It isn’t that I ‘used’ to think you were
bright and intelligent, I have never stopped thinking so.  But this habit of
whining shows a pathology of some sort.  I am not a psychologist so I can’t put
a technical title to it. 

I don’t give an f how long anybody has been pointing out what about whom. 
This isn’t any f’n daytime soap opera.  Well maybe it is, sigh.  What matters to
me is what I can see from the forums I enter.  We all have history.  My
perceptions of MarthaA has been stated.  I will not be coerced into idle
repetition.  What makes you and ardee think you are such authorities on the
finesse of fine argument?  It is my business to evaluate arguments. SO if it
spills over into the forums in which I participate well…I’ll just be that potamus. 
I have said more than twice why I do read so critically.  Is it that you have a
thick skull?  Also I’ve indicated what I think the 70% business is. It is a
metaphor.  Do you understand what a metaphor is?  Yes, that is a rhetorical
question because obviously you do not.  Seeing isn’t just a 1/16” deep.  What
makes you a diagnostician as to what is wrong with anyone being upset over
being called a name without so much as providing any real argument against
her theory.  It is sheer stupidity.  If you don’t like that word, well put it in the
same place where you want MarthaA to put the word sophist.  Are you or
are you not for freedom of speech.  Are you now going to set up a lexicon of
words we cannot use?  Ah, shades of Orwell haunts us.  I have been very polite
in the past.  Done exactly as the example you provided.  But it is not to any
avail.  Somewhat stronger language seems to be in order.  If no learning
occurs, I’ll have to change tactics again!  You didn’t have to add the tag
“teach” now did you.  You see you violate the very thing you criticize
others for. Spank spank. It is called pretzel thinking.  Do you think we only read
some of your words and let you be sloppy over others? 

I have already addressed the 70% business. Please see my post at 3:17am
August 20. 

I can see that you do not want to be corrected, you just say you do.  It is
an easy thing to say.  Your ego is in the way so you don’t see it.  The reason
why you “might” get some things wrong is that you do not have any substance
for what you say. Or if you do, you keep it in a manila folder.  This is not a
guessing game, ah let’s see what does KDelphi really mean?  Bull shit! 
Please don’t explain anything, just learn how to express substantiated
opinions.  It is the same argument I have given rontruth and diamond.  It is not
that I don’t want them to express themselves.  I think they have a valuable
assessment of what is going on to offer us.  But I am after what they
KNOW, not what they think.  Who the f cares what anyone’s opinion is?  We all
have opinions. MarthaA has an opinion yet you don’t want her to express
it. If she feels she has to repeat it, then that is her prerogative.  You are free to
ignore it. ?Honestly!

All right, I am done with this.  I have made my statements, I have made my
criticisms, I have made my opinions and what I am after, and how I feel about
anybody’s opinion of me.  If that isn’t enough, too bad.  This conversation
reminds me of that blowup clown on a spring that when it gets batted, it just
bounces back for another slap.  I ain’t got no mo slaps in m’bag.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 20, 2009 at 1:18 pm Link to this comment

A sophist has different meanings in how it is used. But some would say its meaning hasn’t really changed. That is between a sophist and sophisticated. The former is as we know someone who acts as if they are more intelligent than those around them. They really are bullshit artists in the common venacular. A sophisticated person or device are at their best and function very well and are complex but admirable. Especially in the realm of the socializers who are famous because they are famous! Their qualities are considered the epitome of social order climbing. I was never considered one. In fact I used my social invisibility to be left alone, usually at the library. I wasn’t sophisticated in that way as an example.

Here we are using it in relation to information given concerning just how our society and its people are being manipulated to either agree or be distracted and/or marginalized for the disaffected. I must admit I found it difficult to read MarthaA’s way of writing and reasoning. So I hope that Shenonymous can translate for us. Till later. Be seeing you.

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By KDelphi, August 20, 2009 at 12:02 pm Link to this comment

She—I thought that you were “past using the word sophist”. I honestly havent used it since school. But it seems to be an ok word with you now. It was the best one I could come up with, MONTHS AGO.

This doesnt make any sense.

Do you think that you could refrain from using the word “stupidly” with wrong, teach?

Exsample: You could say, “KDelphi, Sanders is registered as a Democratic Socialist, not a Socialist. You caN check it out here”

I want to be corrected, but I dont see why it has to be so personal with you—but, I can see that explaining to you why I might get some things wrong, would just be masochistic…

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By KDelphi, August 20, 2009 at 11:51 am Link to this comment

She—You may not know, but, ardee and others (including myself) have been pointing out what is wrong with MarthaA’s arguments for months…it is useless. She says to “google the 70%” thing and I have—it only shows posts by her on other sites.

She is free to say it, over and over, and I usually ignore it now.But to hear her still upset over the “sophistry” remark just boggles my mind. If it upset her that badly, then something is wrong.If we confront each other here, do you think that it will still upset you in 3 months? I hope not.

Do you really think that there is some (even close to ) 70% of the population that is “common”? What does that mean? 10% own 40% of the wealth—-where does the 70% come in? Sure there are no real Soialists in the Senate, but I think that we’d be alot better off if there were, you probably dont.OK. But why are you so angry?

I dont care what alot of peolel here say to me at all.I used to care what you said, because I do think thast you are very intelligent. I am not as intelligent as you. Does that give you license to attack me? You surely know how to correct without being so cruel about it.

I respect intelligence but it matters how you use it. And I am not as sharp as I was—I know that. A diagnosis I recently got explains it. I will probably get alot more things wrong…I hope that people could possibly gently correct me.Most people respond positively to that.

Again, peace. I dont want to argue with you..I dont know why, I guess because I see things in your post , oaccasionally , that I think “wow, thats a great thought”.

This is just becoming an argument of the personal and I wish that it hadnt. I dont know you and you dont know me. Lets just keep it that way.

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By Shenonymous, August 20, 2009 at 11:31 am Link to this comment

KDelphi said…”She—when I first came here, you were not so
judgemental. Now all you care about is being “correct
”. So you would rather
go about being stupidly wrong?  Well I am not stopping you, just pointing out
that you are.

Next Q & A:  Who appointed me?  I self-appointed myself, as I so candidly
explained before.  I look for even that miniscule bit of truth.  Ain’t seen none
yet. Way…ell, a little bit, both MarthaA and rontruth have provided
it, and I duly noted it.

You can disagree or correct people without being such a—- about it. Please
demonstrate this. 

Do try to give up that adolescent game of name-calling.  Well maybe you are
still a teenager.  If so, grow up.

Next Q & A;  Am I bitter?  No, just amused at the Sophists that go around
pretending to be knowers.  Besides I haven’t anything better to do says the
potamus Shenonymous

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By KDelphi, August 20, 2009 at 11:24 am Link to this comment

She—“running a popularity contest’ in not the same thing as being confrontational for very little reason , especially when someone was not even addressing you. You seem to have a giant chip on your shoulder these days but thats not my problem.

So go to MENSA if you think its great. Id imagine that you would. Most true intellectuals dont.

What are you so angry about?? Cause I am wrong about something? I dont think so….I coud join MENSA, based on several IQ tests but I wouldnt be caught dead there. Its just mental masturbation when you have trouble relating to people in other ways, in my opinion—and many other people I know have the same opinion.

But it sounds like youd fit right in—you might learn how to correct or explain without being offensive or attacking someone personally…

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By Shenonymous, August 20, 2009 at 11:15 am Link to this comment

Okay, one more try.    Did it work?

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By Shenonymous, August 20, 2009 at 11:13 am Link to this comment

“Shenonymous you are a real piece of work lately.” Why thank you brother
ardee.  I take that as a compliment.

If you don’t want sister MarthaA’s claimed insults, show her why she is
wrong.  Can you do simply that?
Sorry about the italics.  One of my bugaboos.  I hope this fixes it. I seem to be
doing better with the bolding though so there is some salvation for me.

KDelphi you keep covering yourself in the blanket called “everyone.”  It
does feel safer, doesn’t it?  Maybe YOU should take a course from MENSA. 
So you denigrate the intellectuals.  Must be because you feel so inferior.  I am
not here participating in a popularity contest as you seem to be.  If you don’t
like confronting your own sloppy thinking, consult with your smart dad and
sister.  Or m’brother ardee.  Am I an ass?  You betcha, I’m the best ass I
know.  Hahahaha.

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By KDelphi, August 20, 2009 at 11:08 am Link to this comment

ardee—dont mess with She’s fav student!

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By Shenonymous, August 20, 2009 at 11:06 am Link to this comment

“Shenonymous you are a real piece of work lately.” Why thank you brother
ardee.  I take that as a compliment.

If you don’t want sister MarthaA’s claimed insults, show her why she is
wrong.  Can you do simply that?

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By KDelphi, August 20, 2009 at 11:03 am Link to this comment

She—when I first came here, you were not so judgemental. Now all you care about is being “correct”.

I called a Democratic Socialist a Socialist and you knew that my point was that sociaism is NOT consdiered a non-party anywhere else in the free world. and you are certain that I dont know shit about anything. You know what you are talking about, but you dont care about anything except intellectualism.

I’ll bet your students really love you.

I just dont know why you got to be so bitter—everyone on here is stupid or ill-informed except you. Well, why dont you go somewhere else then? Maybe a MENSA site or something—they are much more concerned about being smart than having an actual discussion—my dad was invited to join but thought that they wer a bunch of stuck up assholes..he was a profressor too , as is my sister, so I am accoustsomed to being “corrected” but not the way you do it.

You can disagree or correct people without being such a—- about it.

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By ardee, August 20, 2009 at 10:44 am Link to this comment

“Take a lesson from MarthaA. ”

Yes, by all means let us learn to call any and all who disagreee with our opinion a liar, an agent of the GOP and whatever…Shenonymous you are a real piece of work lately.

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By Shenonymous, August 20, 2009 at 10:25 am Link to this comment

If all you have is name-calling rontruth you are a sad sad but arrogant
individual.  You show yourself for what you are.  I don’t have to do it.  Yes, a
good defense is always the name-calling inabilty-to-understand, lordliness
offense. Your attempts to explain how “WE” got to as a society is about as
weak a presentation as I’ve ever seen, the potamus Shenonymous has ever
seen, that is.  Hey, I like that…it is so alliterative.  (But whoever the hell “we”
are is your figment to shroud yourself among the many (a clever ploy of those
who have no real substantial argument) as you never really identify the
nebulous “WE” and you have no idea what an abstraction is. Did you go to
college?  Maybe you never had any logic, philosophy, or critical thinking
classes, as it certainly looks that way.  You continue to pontificate and are so
stupid that you can’t even recognize it when you do.  Take a lesson from
MarthaA.  Just one, please.  Sorry but you too get my Delphic command,
Get a Grip!  There, you are now anointed with the Shenonymous potamous oil. 
I’ll say this, rontruth, you provide a great deal of humor.  So thank you.

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By Rontruth, August 20, 2009 at 9:53 am Link to this comment

Shenopotamus. Please call me a really dirty, rotten to the core name so I will not feel so guilty for calling you the name I just did. I am starting to wonder if you have not only no “ideology,” but do you have any ideas about how things might have been, or as in my case, my attempts to try to express my views on how we got, as a society, to the strange point taht we have reached today.

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By Shenonymous, August 20, 2009 at 9:40 am Link to this comment

Sorry, an edit needed here for word left out. But the repetition will just give
emphasis to my senitments.  KDelphi You do not know of what you
speak most of the time and wouldn’t recognize bullshit when you stepped in it
since you are always already in it.  Yeah, go ahead and give me the finger.  I’m
used to it.  Especially as a teacher!

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By Shenonymous, August 20, 2009 at 9:35 am Link to this comment

Always the whiner, eh KDelphi?  Yeah, Socrates was accused of the same
folly and was put to death because he took the Sophists to task.  They really hated
him.  I’ve been put to death a number of times here.  But I am a xombie.  Too bad
if you are irritated.  Good, I say.  Stay that way.  You might even improve.  I am
always judgmental.  I do not bow to graven images of any kind and no ideology. 
You might call me the ideology-less mosquito, or roach if you prefer.  You do not
of what you speak most of the time and wouldn’t recognize bullshit when you
stepped in it since you are always already in it.  You have forgotten its smell.  Like
the forest trees conundrum.  Reality is not what anything “seems” to you, my dear. 
Get a grip.

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By MarthaA, August 20, 2009 at 9:09 am Link to this comment

KDelphi,

Senator Bernie Sanders has socialist views and could be a member of the Socialist Party, but he is still only a single individual INDEPENDENT in the Senate under Democratic Party authority, which is what Independent means, it doesn’t change the Democratic Party or the Republican Party’s legal right to power and control over Congress, no political party as of yet has that legal right, but a legally equal 3rd political party to represent the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION is long overdue.

Wikipedia even shows Senator Sanders is an Independent.  Political party   Independent
Caucuses with Democrats in Senate:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders that should give you a clue that he is a political independent in Congress.

Here also http://sanders.senate.gov/about/Bernie Sanders was elected to the U.S. Senate in 2006 after serving 16 years in the House of Representatives. He is the longest serving independent member of Congress in American history.

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By KDelphi, August 20, 2009 at 8:47 am Link to this comment

She—so how do you spend your time when youre not correcting other peoples’ work? Both at home and at work?

You are awfully judgemental these days. I have no idea what I did to piss you off. (I never do—I rarely refer to you specifically)But it seems fine with you when others spout bullshit “facts”...“teachers pet”? I hope you dont do that at work.
That is all that your posts are on this thread—correcting others work like a professor—you should do something else in free time..I said nothing to deserve your personal f’in response.
You seem top have traded your humanity for intellectualism—-why? Making an honest mistake with you is like being in class again—only with a prof who is more interested in being right than teaching.

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By Shenonymous, August 20, 2009 at 7:47 am Link to this comment

By truedigger3, August 20 at 7:13 am # truedigger3, I am overwhelmed! 
Are you really my brother?  Naw, we fight too much.  But that was the best
post you have made, in my humble estimation.

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By Rontruth, August 20, 2009 at 7:39 am Link to this comment

Truedigger3,
The wierd story was in the news at that time. It ties together, in historical sequence, the past and the present. We only finished, a few months ago, the administration of the son of the man who was running for re-election in 1992, who, massive evidencer now shows was directly involved in the Kennedy assassination. Break the word down into it’s two constituent parts: “assassin” and “nation.” It siomply means to kill a nation, or what a nation has stood for and against before it’s leader’s having been killed by those who could not force policy change in any other way.

If you don’t care about where the current events came from to learn where they came from, then one ends up trying to understand current events, and recent ones, but without past reference points that help make the understanding of today’s events easier and more accurate.

Shortness of memory is most often why our society seems not to be able to stop making the same often violent historical blunders, such as the war in Iraq, huge tax windfalls to the wealthy, both of which have bankrupted the American economy.

We simply do not want to recall our history. It’s too old.

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By truedigger3, August 20, 2009 at 4:13 am Link to this comment

Re :Rontruth, August 19 at 7:26 pm #

From where did you get that funny weird story.
Can you show us that picture although pictures or even moving pictures can be easily fabricated.
I am not a Republican but independent I did not vote for Bush in 1992.
I had noticed that all you talk about is conspiracies. Yes, there are conspiracies but don’t you think that you are “over doing it”. There are a lot of other important things to think about and ponder.

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By ardee, August 20, 2009 at 3:16 am Link to this comment

Go ahead about the “70% COMMON POPULATION” but anyone who has been here awhile just skips over it now.
.................

From your mouth to the forums ear…

Some folks, or one in particular actually, think any deviation from a political philosophy so obviously home made, distorted from realities of our political world, and intended, with its absurd and sophomoric capitalizations and repetitions only to propagandize, is sophistry.

I think anyone adopting such a position is a nut job…So sue me!

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By Shenonymous, August 20, 2009 at 1:05 am Link to this comment

I know very well, KDelphi the difference between the Democratic Party
and the DSA.  Yes, you make my point precisely.  I see that it looked like I
was saying that he was a member of the Socialist Party which is not true—i was
trying to impart that it is NOT considered a “fringe” party in all other
democracies that I know of.
  My consistent criticism is that it is important to
be certain of what is said, what is claimed.  I cannot tell what you are “trying” to
do, only what you do do. 

E.g., KDelphi says In these countries there is also not a “70% COMMON
POPULATION” which is what everyone here seem to have accepted as some sort
of fact.
  First of all NOT EVERYONE HERE HAS ACCEPTED THE TERM 70%
COMMON POPULATION IS AN EXACT STATISTIC. There now you have me
writing in capitals! Good grief.  Where do you get off speaking for Everyone
anyway?  Second, WHAT F’N COUNTRIES ARE THESE WHERE THERE IS NOT A 70%
COMMON POPULATION?  If it is Finland, you fail to say if there is any class
structure in Finland, if 100% of everyone has the same amount of money, the
same kind of housing, eat the same menu, drive the same cars?  Shit at the
same time in the same kind of toilets?  Just how cookie cutter a society is it? 
Of course there are no stats that shows there is an existent 70% Common
Population in the United States.  It is an f’n metaphor!

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By KDelphi, August 20, 2009 at 12:45 am Link to this comment

She—You may want to read Sanders reply to be called a Socialist, although I agree that he votes with Democrats. I did not know he was a member of DSA.

U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders United States Senator for Vermont             August 20th, 2009
Sanders Socialist Successes

April 22, 2009 (On the Ambassador from Finland’s trip to Vt) I only print more of the letter because I think it illustrates the difference between a Democrat and a (Democratic) Socialism ands he uses the word (socialist)to describe himself several times..

“At its worst, Washington is a place where name-calling partisan politics too often trumps policy. A standard refrain in John McCain’s presidential stump speeches last fall was a claim that Barack Obama’s Senate voting record was more liberal than Senate’s only SOCIALIST, yours truly. That is nonsense on several levels. Even as political hyperbole, the attack didn’t work out all that well for my colleague from Arizona….(caps mine)

“... Finland is a country which provides high-quality health care to all of its people with virtually no out-of-pocket expense; where parents and their young children receive free excellent childcare and/or parental leave benefits which dwarf what our nation provides; where college and graduate education is free to students and where children in the public school system often record the highest results in international tests. In Finland, where 80 percent of workers belong to unions, all employees enjoy at least 30 days paid vacation and the gap between the rich and poor is far more equitable than in the United States. ....

One reason there was so much interest in the Finnish model was that even before Wall Street greed drove the world economy into a deep recession, more and more Americans were wondering why the very rich were becoming richer while our economy failed our working families.


http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=7b6eba9b-67f5-4d8f-bc75-ce63a07035d2

“.....despite the differences, there are important similarities. Both countries share many of the same aspirations for their people. When one thinks about the long march of human history, it is no small thing that democratic countries like Finland exist that operate under egalitarian principles, which have virtually abolished poverty, which provide almost-free, quality health care to all their people, and provide free, high-quality education from child care to graduate school.

Whether we live in Burlington, Vt. or Birmingham, Ala., we should be prepared to study and learn from the successes of social-democratic countries….”

He isnt registered with the Dems because he is not a Dem. But he is not far off. I certainly wouldnt put him in a class with Lieberman.
He may be considered an “Independent” but I think that some of the legislation he has introduced (when allowed to)has influenced the Dems to move to the left. But he is not registered as a Socialist—no one in DC is.

I see that it looked like I was saying that he was a member of the Socialist Party which is not true—i was trying to impart that it is NOT considered a “fringe” party in all other democracies that I know of.

In these countries there is also not a “70% COMMON POPULATION” which is what everyone here seem to have accepted as some sort of fact.

If there are stats like that in the US, I havent seen them.

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By Shenonymous, August 20, 2009 at 12:37 am Link to this comment

if you know all of this what do you want? diamond you say to me. 
Strange that I never claimed to know any of it let alone “all” of it.  It looks like you
read well, based on the excellent amount of references you just gave, and it is
impressive, exactly the kind I want, but you are branding me as trivially asking
that you cease to arrogantly expound opinions rather than the kind of knowledge
you just provided.  What you have been engaging in, up to this momentous post
of yours, is Classic Sophistry.  Perhaps you are just not used to anyone
questioning the verity of what you say.  I am not a drooling believer of anyone, not
even MarthaA who makes more sense and provides more factual
information than all of you put together.

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By Shenonymous, August 20, 2009 at 12:17 am Link to this comment

MarthaA Thank you for the clarification on who first presented the word
sophist on this forum.  I think it is rather moot however.  It was in your posts
that I first noticed it being used and used a lot.  Pretenders to wisdom seems to
be a mental affliction of epidemic proportions both in the world at large, and
in the microcosm of these forums.  Its practice isn’t restricted to any one
ideology. 

I think I am beginning to understand your use of the word sophist and for my
set of beliefs I believe you are using it rightly, but your expositories have been
for the most part arcane, and pardon me for saying it, are of mythic
proportions.  They are framed in the language of sociology (which is why you
recommended I read Gouldner).  Once I became adapted to reading your posts
I was able to excavate meaning.  The word construction use of capitals, my
guess for emphasis, was distracting to make connections between the various
elements you were presenting.  After repeatedly viewing your characterization
of the divisions of mental attitudes into the categories of wealth, near wealth,
or without wealth the I began to see the metaphoric construction.  The
70/20/10 allocation of economic distribution within the two societies you were
referencing, England and the United States, is a tool to demonstrate the wide
disparity found in either’s population.  You did provide a historical milieu
using the Noble, Nearly Noble, and Common Majority.  Any fool would be able
to see that the ratio is not a fixed actual ratio and that no study has in fact
been done to provide any close approximation (It was comical that truedigger3
wants to use 90% and typically without offering one shred of evidence).

You use the tripartite expression as a clue throughout your discussion as a
touchstone.  It is effective.  At first it was difficult for me to read your
comments not because of my limited association with the terms but in the way
you used them.  I am beginning to understand your criticism of the way you see
this society works through its government, but I admit, and I have to qualify
that with an “I think,” it is just a glimmer.  I have not decided whether I agree
with you or not, yet.  But I am interested to understand it. 

The other obvious pattern of your comments is the repetition, though not quite
rhythmic as that would send them distractingly into the realm of poetry and I
quite believe that is not your intent. But the repetition does set up a resonance
within the memory psychology and it is intentional to lay a foundation on
which to build your thesis of a better way societies might work where the
larger portion, those without wealth would gain greater benefit.  Of course this
is all conjecture on my part but I am now fascinated enough to read your posts
indeed for understanding.  It is a different way of learning.  I don’t care what
the others are saying I think you are saying something significant.  It is I think,
however, labyrinthine.  It fits with Gouldner’s metaphor of the Minotaur. 

So we will carry on from here.  I will make a similar post on another forum
because I think it is applicable there as well.  Maybe not, but it will only take up
a negligibly small amount of forum space.  If I am way off base, I’m sure you
will let me know. 

KDelphi, Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont is a declared socialist,
describing himself as a democratic socialist, but he is not registered formally as
belonging to any political party and definitely not one named the Socialist
Party.  He sits with the Democrats and votes with and in support of them. 
Some cursory but pertinent information about the Socialist parties that are
organized in the United States if you are interested maybe be found at
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Democratic_Socialists_of_America#
encyclopedia

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By diamond, August 20, 2009 at 12:14 am Link to this comment

shenonymous, if you know all of this what do you want? An alphabetical directory of who in the CIA is in bed with the corporate world and organized crime? Well, you might stop wondering about why the financial world knew all about 9/11 before it happened and took advantage of that knowledge to indulge in an orgy of insider trading if you know how many heads of banks used to run the CIA.

Clark Clifford – The National Security Act of 1947 was written by Clark Clifford, a Democratic Party powerhouse, former Secretary of Defense, and one-time advisor to President Harry Truman. In the 1980s, as Chairman of First American Bancshares, Clifford was instrumental in getting the corrupt CIA drug bank BCCI a license to operate on American shores. His profession: Wall Street lawyer and banker.

John Foster and Allen Dulles – These two brothers “designed” the CIA for Clifford. Both were active in intelligence operations during WW II. Allen Dulles was the U.S. Ambassador to Switzerland where he met frequently with Nazi leaders and looked after U.S. investments in Germany. John Foster went on to become Secretary of State under Dwight Eisenhower and Allen went on to serve as CIA Director under Eisenhower and was later fired by JFK. Their professions: partners in the most powerful - to this day - Wall Street law firm of Sullivan, Cromwell.

Bill Casey – Ronald Reagan’s CIA Director and OSS veteran who served as chief wrangler during the Iran-Contra years was, under President Richard Nixon, Chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. His profession: Wall Street lawyer and stockbroker.

David Doherty -  Vice President of the New York Stock Exchange for enforcement is the retired General Counsel of the Central Intelligence Agency.

George Herbert Walker Bush – President from 1989 to January 1993, also served as CIA Director for 13 months from 1976-7. He is now a paid consultant to the Carlyle Group, the 11th largest defense contractor in the nation, which also shares joint investments with the bin Laden family.

A.B. “Buzzy” Krongard – The current Executive Director of the Central Intelligence Agency is the former Chairman of the investment bank A.B. Brown and former Vice Chairman of Banker’s Trust.

John Deutch - This retired CIA Director from the Clinton Administration currently sits on the board at Citigroup, the nation’s second largest bank, which has been repeatedly and overtly involved in the documented laundering of drug money. This includes Citigroup’s 2001 purchase of a Mexican bank known to launder drug money, Banamex.

Nora Slatkin – This retired CIA Executive Director also sits on Citibank’s board.   

Maurice “Hank” Greenburg – The CEO of AIG insurance, manager of the third largest capital investment pool in the world, was floated as a possible CIA Director in 1995. FTW exposed Greenberg’s and AIG’s long connection to CIA drug trafficking and covert operations in a two-part series that was interrupted just prior to the attacks of September 11.

Not to be wondered at that Bush Senior was hanging around the book depository in 1963. No one gets to be Director of the CIA without paying their dues.

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By Sepharad, August 19, 2009 at 10:46 pm Link to this comment

Rontruth, that is a passing bizarre tale. No wonder voters found it strange.

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By KDelphi, August 19, 2009 at 10:45 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA—Sen Sanders is a Socialistt and it IS a party—In most Democratic countries it is a very popular party. It may be weak in the US , but that is because people think that they live in a meritocracy and accept that these rich people must be smarter than them.

As long as everyone thinks that another party cannot have any power, its a self-fulfilling procphecy—keep it up, the elites are conting on you.

If Obama keeps up his flight to conservatism/corporatism. he might actually mobilize the Left, if there still is one.

The whole world is STILL watching, but I think that it is now with pity.

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By MarthaA, August 19, 2009 at 8:56 pm Link to this comment

truedigger3,

Here is a post I made to glider & Leefeller that I will repost to you:
...........

Sen. Bernie Sanders I-VT was elected as a single Independent that gets to sit on the Left with the Democrats, and takes orders from Democrats Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer the leaders of the Democrats and any committees he gets on will have to be OK’d with the Democrats, although since he is an Independent, he could chose to sit with the Republicans. Independent is not a political party, only a single position in either the Right or the Left.  It is really a pretty weak position.  Sen. Joe Lieberman I-CT used to be a Democrat, but he was kicked out of his party by the Democrats because he represented Republicans, so he ran singularly as an Independent and got back in and still sits with the Democrats, although he mostly votes with the Republicans.

Being under the Democrats leadership or under the Republicans leadership does not allow political freedom. Senator Sanders has a website and he can talk, but his legislation has to be approved by the leaders before it is brought before the Senate, whereas if we had a 3rd institutionalized political party there would be three columns in the Senate, with the Republicans to the Right, the Democrats to the Middle, and the, let’s say Commons Party to the Left and the members of the Commons Party would only sit in committee with other members of the Commons Party.  We do not have this now, but it is sorely needed, like Medical Care for all individuals.
.........
Greens will only get to do exactly the same as an Independent, even though they have a Political Party, it doesn’t mean anything in Congress any more than a singular Independent, because a 3rd Political Party has not been institutionalized through legislation to be legally equal by law with the other two political parties.  There is NO WAY other than using the Democratic Party or bloody revolution.  I much prefer to exhaust all possibilities of using the Democratic Party Primary Process to reform the Democratic Party before any thought of losing my life through bloody revolution, although if REFORM is exhausted to no avail all that is left is bloody revolution of which there would be no alternative, but exhausting all avenues of REFORM is what must be done first.

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By Folktruther, August 19, 2009 at 7:36 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie, its not just working class people voting for limonsine liberals or conservatives.  Everyone tends to identify with power rather than the people ruled by power.  As Freud pointed out in his analysis of religious delusions in FUTURE OF AN ILLUSION, this is partly a biological phenomenon.

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By Rontruth, August 19, 2009 at 4:26 pm Link to this comment

Hey Sepharad, Shalom.
I was just recalling back in the 1992 election when there were three candidates, Bush, Sr. (Republican), Bill Clinton (Democrat) and one of America’ wealthiest men, H. Ross Perot (Independent). Up until Perot, after old man Bush came up with a dirty, rotten lie about Perot’s daughter supposedly bedding down with another man when getting married to her fiance, along with implied threats to Perot, himself, gave up the race, Perot was at 35%, Bush was at 30%, and Clinton was at 29%.

He would, had he stayed in the race, have won the presidency of the United States by about a 4 million vote plurality.

Bush had one little old historical problem: On November 22, 1963, he had called the Houston, Texas offiee of the FBI, telling them that when JFK was assassinated, he had been in Tyler, Texas and had called the Houston FBI office. He reported to them that a certain Republican, a James Parrot had been talking about shooting President Kennedy. Bush supposedly made this report, buit did so 1 ande 1/2 hours after the assassination.

The FBI checked Parrott out, and found that Parrott, a freshman college student, had been at home with his mother and sister the whole time. When news reporters found Parrott supporting Bush, Sr’s re-election bid at a Bush, Sr. rally, he told them that he and Bush had patched things up. Strange. The voters thought so to.

Photographs shown on Larry King, Live and Hardball with Chris Matthews, showed Bush, Sr. in front of the Texas School Book Depostiry building within 20 minutes after the shots had been fired. Meaning that Bush, Sr. had lied about where he was on that day, and tried to set up someone else to take the blame as a cover up for where he was that day.

Thankfully, Clinton won by over 5 million votes plurality over the old CIA covert operator, himself.

Truth and politics can come together if people want them to. They certainly did then.

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By Sepharad, August 19, 2009 at 3:39 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie, the greens and socialists etc are already in parties they agree with, true, and are getting nowhere. There is a great need to make common cause, and I suspect that these people DO have a lot in common that doesn’t preclude agreement on their single issues. It’s not a stretch to imagine a green socialist populist civil rights activist, but it does seem to be a stretch for either a green or a socialist or populist or civil rights activist to gather enough votes to have any voice at all.

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By truedigger3, August 19, 2009 at 12:48 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA,

As soon as I saw your name, right away I knew that I will get a tunnelled vision answer advocating the Democratic Party.
With the election of Jimmy Carter, the Democratic Party abandoned the common people(who are 90% and not 70%).  Since then, the Party campaigned from the left and governed from the right with only minor cosmetic and make believe differences from the Republican Party. Remember Clinton? and now we are having Obama who is a black copy of Clinton.
Obama now governs with the majority of the congress are Democratic. What has he done differently from Bush.
He is rolling on the same tracks and doing the same things Bush was doing and he didn’t change a damn thing and please don’t tell me it is too early to tell.
He didn’t show and is not showing any indication whatsoever of changing Bush’s course. The Democratic Party is as good as useless for the common folks. It has to be a different way for the common folks to get true representation for their interests and wellbing.
You are a case study in delusion and fanaticism. I think it is hopeless case and waste of time to try to engage in a real discussion with the like of you.  Your mind are already set in concerete.

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By KDelphi, August 19, 2009 at 12:27 pm Link to this comment

LOLOLOL!!
Still cant get over the term “sophist”, martha? I could certainly call you alot worse, but I wont.

She just cant get over it—its been MONTHS—literally! I hadnt used it in years…

Sorry, I had no idea it would stick in her craw so long…can you think of a better word for the silly propaganda she spews out?

Go ahead about the “70% COMMON POPULATION” but anyone who has been here awhile just skips over it now.

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By MarthaA, August 19, 2009 at 11:44 am Link to this comment

truedigger3,

There are only two issues to be addressed for the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION, which are UNIFICATION and REPRESENTATION.

The issue that has to be addressed first is the unification of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION of the United States as a Class and Culture.

The second issue to be addressed is representation of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION as a Class and Culture; representation politically by the Democratic Party and legislatively in both houses of Congress and in the government, so that the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION will have a seat at the table to make and enforce LAW and ORDER that is in the best interest of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION of the United States as a Class and Culture.

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By truedigger3, August 19, 2009 at 9:54 am Link to this comment

Many posters lamented the indifference and the apathy of the common folks and even worse, the common folks voting against their own interests.
There are many reasons that converged to cause that.
First and foremost is the control of the media by the wealthy class. The common peopel are continually bombarded by misinformation and obfuscation that it is impossible to form an informrd opinion. The latest healthcare fiasco is a good example of that.
Second reason is the lack of leadership and a unified direction by the so called progressives or leftists.
We are having many splitered groups: the Naderites, the Greens, homeless advocates, gay and lesbian alliance, consumer advocates, the blacks, the hispanics and women.. etc… etc.
Everyone of these groups, cares about his pet issue and nothing else. There is no unified voice calling for economic and social justice for all and a society that takes care of its people and not a society that favours the super-rich with continuos rising wealth and impoverishing the rest of the population.!!
Before any progress for the common folks can happen, these two issues have to be address first.

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By MarthaA, August 19, 2009 at 9:47 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

“And I thank MarthaA for inserting that word sophist into our forum conversations and helping me recover it.  I had lost it for a while being busy with the “realities” of everyday life.”

KDelphi ludicrously accused me of being a sophist, which was outrageous, insulting and offensive, for me, a Left-Winger, to be accused of what the Right-Wing has been doing for 40 years that enabled the REPUBLICAN REVOLUTION and that I have been fighting against from the very beginning of the REPUBLICAN REVOLUTION to the present.  I recognized after the “sophist” word was used, the ramifications of KDelphi’s use of the word, and that sophistry is one of the tactics KDelphi, ardee and others are using, and have since been pointing out their sophistry.

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By dihey, August 19, 2009 at 8:59 am Link to this comment

“could be” is the writing of history by ignorant guessers.

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By Anarcissie, August 19, 2009 at 6:30 am Link to this comment

Sepharad:
‘ardee, I just commented somewhere else that if the greens and nader people and socialists and other progressives joined one single party and called it populist, it would also appeal to the working class who are usually patronized by limousine libs and given all that, it would make sense to have a third party. ...’

But the people who are going to form this third party don’t agree with one another.  That’s the reason they are not already in a coherent party.

Anyway, a lot of working-class people seem to want to be patronized by limousine liberals, or limousine conservatives.  I find this very odd, and it’s hard to get any of them to defend it rationally, but there it is—watch Bloomberg buy the New York City mayoralty election, for example.

I don’t think our world is going to be changed by some kind of top-down process starting with a quick switch at the top.

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By Shenonymous, August 19, 2009 at 6:23 am Link to this comment

If Independents were added to that group, The New Populist Party, there might be something to reckon with. 

I could be persuaded from time to time to vote for a live candidate if the Democrats only had dead ones.

It is possible for the common people to unite.  But first there has to be some fire in the belly bigger than what they perceive to be in their miserable lives.  Then there has to be someone who can start a conflagration without demagoguery.  That is about as possible as a perpetual motion machine.

While both of these guys have their cult followers, Kucinich has good ideas but does not have charisma; Nader is dead in the water, even though he has good ideas very few people like him.  Who else is there?  Ain’t nobody on the floor.  How about Alex Baldwin?  Ha!  Those who opine to be a politician, to be The Politician, are all a little pleasant in manner, a little bit stimulating, but dull, insipid, having no distinctive flavor and missing a backbone.  They don’t even attain to bland vanilla.  Not one politician has it, IT, that thing that puts fire in the hearts of the many. Not one!  And have you seen the list for the Republican primaries?  Good God, they can hardly crawl out of the swamp: Romney, Palin, Huckabee, and the Newt.  The pigwash is mighty deep on that side of the “aisle.”

Obama had it, enough of the ethnic American votes including the white ethnic group were sparked.  And he did electrify the world really.  He is just not living up to godhood and the racists are loving it, and the pompous irritable-bowel impatients, who do little else but rant on blogs that demand the world with the snap of the fingers.

There are the illiterates on this forum who don’t know the origin of the word sophist who keep providing the most amusement.  Unbelievable.

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By ardee, August 19, 2009 at 3:33 am Link to this comment

Sepharad, August 19 at 1:45 am #

ardee, I just commented somewhere else that if the greens and nader people and socialists and other progressives joined one single party and called it populist, it would also appeal to the working class who are usually patronized by limousine libs and given all that, it would make sense to have a third party. We would win. If progressive/liberal congressmen weren’t outnumbered, we’d have a public health plan on the way.
............................................

Do you wonder that the Left has been splintered, silenced, and at odds with itself forever, yet the diminutive far right is well organized, well financed, and has endless availability to media outlets?

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By ardee, August 19, 2009 at 3:29 am Link to this comment

And I thank MarthaA for inserting that word sophist into our forum conversations and helping me recover it.  I had lost it for a while being busy with the “realities” of everyday life.
.........................

Thank KDelphi who taught that particular sophist that particular word.

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By Sepharad, August 18, 2009 at 10:45 pm Link to this comment

ardee, I just commented somewhere else that if the greens and nader people and socialists and other progressives joined one single party and called it populist, it would also appeal to the working class who are usually patronized by limousine libs and given all that, it would make sense to have a third party. We would win. If progressive/liberal congressmen weren’t outnumbered, we’d have a public health plan on the way.

There is something to be said for voting Republican and let things get as bad as possible, but we just went through that, things got nearly as bad as possible, and the Dems barely won. Any worse, and it would be a totalitarian state full of homeless people and sick people dying in the streets and truly endless wars ... I’m all for a populist revolution but it doesn’t seem as if decades of bad government have united enough people to do it.

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By Shenonymous, August 18, 2009 at 11:01 am Link to this comment

Excellent post Night-Gaunt and I know full well you do not await my applause, but you get it anyway for demonstrating thoughtfulness and reminding us of some failures in our world.

“The above scenario is how things really work in the nation’s capitol.” Really?  Maybe it is because I am a woman?  Yes, that is a sexist remark but I can’t account for it in a rational way.  You just don’t get my point rontruth.  You act as though you have proof of anything and everything you assert!  Unless you just don’t understand what the word “really” means?  If you say this is a theory of yours, even if you have appropriated it from some idol such as a Bruce Willis, then you are simply acknowledging you have an opinion. And that is perfectly acceptable even to a skeptic like myself.  Opinions, however come with baggage: that they do not insist on believability.  So I can well understand why ownership of opinions are completely missing from these forums!  Opinions are paraded as if they were the f’n truth!  You might be able to get some of the people to swallow that crap (ugh), but at least one here doesn’t (cause She don’t like crap however it mey be covered with artificial truth!)  You are precisely guilty of the same jingoism that you accuse others of committing.

It appears you think you have a complete handle on how things work.  Maybe you do have a finely drawn draught of a “plausible” reality.  But it is complete demagoguery to think you are to be believed out-of-hand.  Why? Do you think everything you say is truth?  Do you have some King David complex that what you say is what is reality?  Come on.  Look in the mirror and say everything you said to us and see if YOU believe you?  What facts are you presenting to yourself?  Squint your eyes and maybe you can see a ray of truth.  But dearie that is all you see. 

Okay, you mentioned the CIA and their fealty to the corporate handlers of Washington politicians.  Vague vague vague accusation.  At least you have one of the three elements named, CIA.  That in itself does not give your claim any credibility if you think it does.  Do you even know what you are saying?  How slipshod it is?  I desperately look for anyone who has the truth.  Aristotle said “every man has a little bit of the truth.”  So I go looking for that little bit and in your statements I do not find a little bit.  Not even a smidgen. Is it your pride that makes you, and diamond, speak that way?

Well others may follow you and bask in your rhetoric, true lemmingminds, but I will not and I will point it out every time, since I have self-appointed myself to expose sophists when I run into them.  And I thank MarthaA for inserting that word sophist into our forum conversations and helping me recover it.  I had lost it for a while being busy with the “realities” of everyday life.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 18, 2009 at 10:41 am Link to this comment

Obfuscation and muddying the waters is a way to keep the real unreal and the unreal real. That is between propaganda and the reality it is working to hide. A more recent example is the Health care debate where what Obama is offering is more of the same just with the gov’t forcing everyone into a corporate insurance plan and taking up the slack with tax payer money. And the insurance companies still fight it tooth and nail! Misrepresented as a “single payer” system or a prelude to it and winning in the minds of many!!

Controlling the flow of information and denigrating other information or its purveyor is essential to the management of it. [Remember the files showing that Bush hadn’t fulfilling his duty in the Air Nat’l Guard and it was “proven” to be fake? The information was real but the whole concept was trashed on purpose and a news man lost his job over the scandal.]

Recall that the “crop circles” were finally reaching the national news and just in time two tippling men claim they were doing it all and proceeded to demonstrate it. Poorly without the geometric preciseness so many others had shown. Then that killed the story. As writer John Keel wrote, the news reporters will be more inclined to believe a ridiculous common explanation that doesn’t fit what was reported than an exotic unbelievable one that fits the parameters of the stories related by the witnesses. Swamp gas wins.

Then there is the hypnogogic confabulation and misapprehension factors of human perception which does cause problems as well. Unreliability of witnesses even trained ones is now well know. It is our brains that do us in.

I admit it isn’t very easy at first to learn about this but then I have had years to do so. My own time, I don’t have any official proof of education beyond high school. Just so you have the framework of my education.

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By Rontruth, August 18, 2009 at 10:15 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,
The CIA jes’ luvs the “neither confirm nor deny” scenario when confronted with it’s crimes performed in the service of all the corporate “handlers” of Washington politicians who tell the politicians how they must vote (in order to continue receiving illegal handouts from the corporations who donate, both above, and below the proverbial table.

The above scenario is how things really work in the nation’s capitol. The huge handouts to the wealthiest bankers in this country are proof positive of the truthfulness of the statement contained in my first paragraph above.

As long as people vote, and the money flows to those who love the power that politics has brought them, and do enough to be sure the nation doesn’t completely self-destruct in a massive, Jesse Ventura-like “Revolution,” then they will remain happy while many outside Washington suffer and get blamed for it.

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By Shenonymous, August 18, 2009 at 9:48 am Link to this comment

Counter-assassins? What counter-assassins can you name? asks rontruth  Shenonymous answers, “Why the ones who reside under rocks (oh, not MarthaA’s rocks, but you know…the ones that keep company with roaches.  Can I name them?  Of course not, they are a chimerical as your Organized Crime guys.  Goodness these days it could even be WonderWomen.  And besides if I knew them, they would be apprehended and put away.  Don’t you know the drill?  Duh.  Bruce Willis is not an authority, is he?  Do you bow to every stone idol that pops up before you? Good grief.  Have you ever heard of Ion?”

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By Rontruth, August 18, 2009 at 9:29 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,
The problem, as I see it (notice, now, I said “as I see it”), is that you and I and a few others are very likely NOT the only people who read what you and I print and post in this forum. And, yes, just like you do, with your thoughts and ideas about what to do about NOW, I and others who now see the historical connections, that have not really appeared much in this forum, between the event of a little less than 46 years ago, and more recent ones (the same individuals, acting behind the scenes of both the JFK killing, and the 9/11 attacks) are beginning to put the two together.

An actor, Bruce Willis, shortly after E. Howard Hunt’s book, “American Spy: My Secret Life In The CIA, Watergate And Beyond” came out, said “I believe that the people who were behind the JFK assassination are still alive and in power today.” It is at one of Willis’ web-sites. This statement was made in June, 2007. he also said at the same time, “I could be killed for saying this.”

Counter-assassins? What counter-assassins can you name? I named a couple in my last posting, who were assassins, discovered in Dealey Plaza on assassination day, 1963. Peace-loving lefties and moderates do not usually attempt to assassinate people for large financial gain.

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By Shenonymous, August 18, 2009 at 9:06 am Link to this comment

You know rontruth, you might be right.  But on this forum you are speculating.  If you had proof you certainly would have brought charges.  If what you say is true, any part of it, then where are the counterassassins who would just off the culprits and let it be done with.  The intrigue is the seduction. Continuing the conspiracy is the seduction.  It is a psychological thrill.  It is a serial thriller bound to keep the publishing business thriving and the drooling fans with their hearts a twitter (oh, sorry that word is now taken), hearts warbling (oh, I like that…warbling).  The Jack Kennedy assassination is 46 years old.  In another few years all the principles will be dead.  The asshole brainless self-appointed supreme court justice Jack Ruby stopped any truth that could have been had.  Truth is a dream.  Write a book if you care that much.  Make your theory a public item that at least could make you a buck.  You certainly are not going to solve anything on this forum, do you think?  Or are you only after the adulation of those who already agree with you.  That is called preening, strutting.

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By Rontruth, August 18, 2009 at 8:51 am Link to this comment

Shenonemous,
The issue of the Kennedy assassination is, if one cares enough about our “political” (Dylan) history, an example only of the question that the three people, myself included, want to try to answer. The reason is that some of the names that have turned up in both government, and private investigations, are STILL alive today, running scott free and protected by the current, and recent administrations.

For example, Luis Posada Carriles. A CIA/Mafia gangster whose explosives expertise, joined with that of the still living Chicago killer, James Earl Files, brought down Cubana flight 455 in 1976, killing all 73 passengers on board. They were headed to Venezuela where some of them would have testified against Posada, and Dr. Orlando Bosch and their involvement in the Kennedy assassination. This is documented fact.

Their testimony would also have obviated the role of anti-Castro Cubans, and CIA/oil executives who wanted Kennedy out of the way.

Several of the people at the top of the JFK conspiracy are still alive, and need to be brought to justice. One of them is in his 80s and has a son who was recently president of the United States. The elder one, a former president, was photographed in several places in Dealey Plaza, both one minute before, and 20 minutes after the multiple shots, from several directions were fired into the Kennedy limousine.

The above are the only reasons for wanting the truth about that event out NOW. The right wing, violent, anti-US Constitution, fascists shot him so that they could then hide behind presidents of either party, threatening any who should utter words that might threaten their ill-gotten gains, and hidden positions of power.

The Kennedy assassination is simply, and only, an example of the investigative public’s having uncovered incontrovertible evidence of the involvement of these few remaining assassination masterminds, and what they did to OUR Constitution through gun-play.

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By Anarcissie, August 18, 2009 at 8:02 am Link to this comment

Folktruther:
‘thank you for your reply, Diamand.  It appears to have evoked a grunt of satisfaction from the other Dem Lemmings. and I agree with you, that if Obama goes too far, he is in danger of assassination.

But there is no evidence that he wants to go in that direction at all. ...’

If the presidency and the rest of the government is as totally under the control of the MIC (or whatever) as diamond thinks, then it doesn’t make any difference what Obama wants, and there is little point in discussing it.  Any sort of leftist activity, that is, action in favor of freedom, equality and peace, has to take place somewhere else.  The presidency is simply inconsequential.

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By Shenonymous, August 18, 2009 at 7:42 am Link to this comment

If just passing time speculating about this or that is the object, then second guessing the history of what the CIA was or was not doing, why Jack Kennedy was assassinated, or who really killed Bobby, is your game, and I say “go for it and enjoy yourself.”  Please be kind enough and self-aware enough to know that and say so.  But don’t delude yourself or try to delude us that you are furthering any argument about “How Bad Things Might Have Been” with regard to what is going on right now.  Nor do you have any inside information of what is going on “right now.”  Please do SPECULATE on what is going on now, and do say that it is mere speculation.  Why does anyone think personal opinions about reality is compelling?  Even mine here?  I include myself when and if (which is quite rare) I pontificate.  Pointing out flaws in thinking and pretending it is truth is not really pontificating.  It is ‘pointing out.’

This goes for the incessant whining that comes from several participants about various personal problems with the society in which they find themselves.  Gad, go somewhere else if it is so bad here.  Or, get involved and at least attempt to get off the ass and do something.  As another Bobby (Dylan) said, it’s a “Political World.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e4a-QpfhD8

Yeah….man.

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By Shenonymous, August 18, 2009 at 7:08 am Link to this comment

Let’s contemplate the rock/marshmallow analogy, and see if I’ve got it MarthaA.

In the story of the capitalism as opposed to socialism, if you went with capitalism intuitively, as what made your life into an economic mess, rather than socialism, would the damage to your foot be less if you were unable to identify the type capitalism that made the mess, or would you identify the damage to the economy as the problem, instead of the capitalism, and start to work backward from effect to identify the cause in general; first, capitalism, and later in more specific terms the type of capitalism?

If at first you hypothesized that the effect caused to your foot was capitalism, based on observation of significant facts relative to the damage to the economy, and tested your hypothesis by experiment (research into the facts) and observation and found out that it was or was not capitalism, maybe it was a different exotic species of economic system, would it matter that you did not know in advance that it was capitalism or the other system, and what type of capitalism or other exotic system it was in advance, or would it be more pertinent that you used scientific method to establish cause from effect?

Well, first I would attend to my crushed economy.  Theory can come a little later.  See exactly what was the damage, then take steps to repair it, set the bones so to speak, put some bandages on it, meaning instill some temporary fixes while the subterranean problems are studied (scientific method if you wish to call it that, since we are after facts), then once facts are had, see how they are related and consequences.

I happen to believe a hybrid of capitalism and socialism is the only true solution.  The argument is what is the ratio of one to the other. Is it 50% each, or some other?  You tell me what you think MarthaA.  And thank you for the more penetrating kind of discussion than is usual on these forums.  Gives me much hope that true dialogue is possible without the usual pontification or resort to name-calling.

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By Rontruth, August 18, 2009 at 7:07 am Link to this comment

Truedigger,
You are half right, and half wrong. The CIA was in an alliance with organized crime in their mutual efforts to kill Fidel Castro of Cuba. They were brought together for this venture by ex-FBI Special Agent, Robert Mahue. That was the nexus, the joining point, if you will, for the alliance that existed at the time of the Cuban missile crisis, and it’s aftermath, Kennedy’s direct executive orders to end all ops against Cuba

There were CIA assets, people from mostly the oil industry, who had been deeply involved in funding for special, but unConstitutional, secret operations against Castro. Personal reasons, such as Castro’s nationalizing of the Zapata Co’s offshore oil rig operations. One such CIA asset was George Herbert Walker Bush.

Kennedy demurred at the Bay of Pigs. The big oil people, who had raised private funds and recruited Cuban exiles for the invasion, were very angry at JFK for not ordering full US air support for Brigade 2506, and indeed a full US military invasion of Cuba when the little brigade was captured by Castro’s army. They fought hard, but were outnumbered, 30 to 1.

The man in charge of air operations, a Colonel George, who had been a bomber pilot in WW11, and had used his contacts to obtain, and repaint old US WW11 B-28 bombers to make them look like stolen Cuban air force planes (the invasion was supposed to be top secret). He and E. Howard Hunt, and others met with JFK in a last-ditch effort to convince JFK to do all-pit support of the invasion, before he authorized it, subject to his being contacted for final approval. JFK had been warned by Eisenhower to keep it secret, to keep it away from the Russians.

On the morning of the planned invasion, they tried reaching JFK. But Kennedy had left the WH, and was nowhere to be found. General Charles Cabbel, an Air Force general on loan to the CIA for the operation, gave the final orders to go ahead with the invasion, withOUT the president’s final permission. When the invasion failed, Kennedy took responsibility in public, but privately investigated, then fired the top three leaders (Dulles, Bissell and Cabell).

Then Kennedy reversed himself on the CIA, vastly increased it’s funding for Cuban operations, planning to lead a massive invasion of Cuba. I remember seeing the long lines of Army trucks filled with soldiers waving out the open ended, canvas-covered trucks, all headed for Florida. This was in August and September, 1962. Then the Soviet nuclear missiles were discovered being built in Cuba. The crisis came, and was resolved the way I mentioned in above paragraphs.

The Mafia had lost their casino, drug and prostitution operations in Havana, closed down by Castro. Big US oil had lost it’s offshore rig operatons to Castro. The military hardware manufacturers had lost not only an invasion of Cuba, but, with Kennedy’s withdrawal order, NSAM 263, their weapons would not go into Vietnam. Explosives manufacturers, such as a company was owned by Senator Nelson Rockefeller that produced explosives for the military, located in Homer, Louisiana.

This is why, when LBJ, who was being investigated for fraud, missuse of Federal Government funds, and his direct connections to unexplained “suicides” in Texas, one of whom was his sister, had turned the heat up on LBJ, that he was in easy cooperation with the others in his obvious turning down the emergency status that the Secret Service had been under, due to it’s prior knowledge of kill Kennedy plots in Florida and Chicago.

The Secret Service “stand-down” seen on film at Dallas, Love Field when the JFK limousine Secret Service men were called off by shift leader, Henry Roberts, and the shocked look on the face of SS Agent, Henry Ribka.

Many people in the above listed organizations and entities, hated Kennedy for hurting their businesses.
(Kennedy had introduced legislation to raise oil extraction taxes, lowering the oil depletion allowance by 25%. Now you hopefully understand.

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