ardee,

ardee said: “So, Martha you subscribe to the radical leftist perspective that things getting worse make for a better chance for change?”

MarthaA’s answer:  How did you arrive at that conclusion from what I said?  Not once did I say I subscribed to a radical movement, but history shows that a radical movement will happen, when all else fails, but for certain radical is the last choice.

So, Martha you subscribe to the radical leftist perspective that things getting worse make for a better chance for change?

I first heard that advocated by one of my heroes, actually, Dr. Ernesto Guevara. I still am rather uncomfortable with that theory, plausible though it may be.

ardee,

“and will receive no unpaid coverage either.”

And, will not even be allowed to PAY for media coverage if at the time the Left’s PAID MEDIA COVERAGE is deemed by the media to hurt the Republican and/or Republican Lite Democratic Party candidate’s seduction of the population, while Republicans and Republicans Lite get plenty of unpaid media advertising to seduce the population away from what is in their best interest.

When the people get their fill of the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Republican Movement using the Democratic Party, the Left WILL move, but by that time it will be too late, our country will be sent back to the Dark Ages, and it looks like the Right-Wing Hitleresque Conservative EXTREMIST MOVEMENT is going to push to that point.

MarthaA, September 12 at 9:40 pm

The devil remains in the details.

Every name on that list will have access to Democratic Party War Chests, superstar speakers to help with the campaign, massive advertising budgets etc.

Those who oppose them will run on a shoestring budget, campaign, for the most part, alone, have little access to media sources to get their message out there and will receive no unpaid coverage either.

What to do, what to do…..I wonder how many folks, when walking down their respective streets, look at lampposts and see them as in need of a few decorative corpses hanging from them….....not that I am an advocate of such I hasten to add, only a bit of fanciful dreaming.

If we don’t get good health care, then by all means we must vote in the Primary Elections and vote out all the people who have caused the problem, which is the DLC Republicans Lite and the New Democrats.  Here is a list of
Democratic Party Senators up for re-election in 2010:

Blanche Lincoln (Arkansas-D)

Barbara Boxer (California-D)

Ken Salazar (Colorado-D)

Christopher Dodd (Connecticut-D)

Daniel Inouye (Hawaii-D)

Roland Burris (Illinois-D)

Evan Bayh (Indiana-D)

Barbara Mikulski (Maryland-D)

Harry Reid (Nevada-D)

Chuck Schumer (New York-D)

Byron Dorgan (North Dakota-NPL-D)

Ron Wyden (Oregon-D)

Arlen Specter (Pennsylvania-D)

Patrick Leahy (Vermont-D)

Russ Feingold (Wisconsin-D)

With the exception of Barbara Boxer and Russ Feingold, all of these need to be removed.

Re: OzarkMichael

Your comment: “How do we hold them accountable for what they do with the names and addresses of dissenters? We dont know they are doing and we cant find out. We dont even know who they are.”

How do we hold YOU accountable for what you do?  How many people will die for lack of health insurance?  Why do YOU deny others care and concern?  Why is it your ill-conceived dollar dictates the worth or value of others?

“There was a time when the people were the ones who had to sort out lies from truth.”

As history is said to repeat itself, so again…... it happens that THE PEOPLE have spoken.  INSURANCE COMPANIES run a death for profit outfit.  This is what THE PEOPLE say.  So….. it seems, we find ourselves in agreement.

OzarkMichael,

Privatization for profit—All you understand—they pay you—who cares about anyone else, eh, OzarkMichael.

Yo MarthaA,

Let me respond to your last post in the way that you will understand:

Cookie Monster. Gas station.

OzarkMichael,

Troll that you are, who do you trust?  Oh yeah, its Private CORPORATIONS privatizing your water, your air and your anus so that you have to pay when you use toilet tissue.  Sure, that’s what our country needs.  TROLL. restroom.

ardee & renee hardy,

ardee said:  “it is refreshing to read one CEO’s thoughts that actually image a populist vision of governance….”

renee hardy said:  “I also support the view of a publically funded universal health care option for all members of our society.”

renee hardy said:  “We might as well classify Whole Foods Market as a socialistic organization since it benefits completely and directly from these publically funded services and regulatory agencies and could not function as it does presently nor enjoy the financial success
remainder next post”

MarthaA Answer:  In this Whole Foods Market post of a post by John Mackey of the Wall Street Journal, Renee Lawson Hardy, CoFounder of Whole Foods Market is against capitalist use of the resources of socialism without providing benefit to those that provided the assets of socialism, the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION; Renee Lawson Hardy is saying socialism for the many is a good thing, rather than just socialism for the few; if she doesn’t reverse what she says in the remainder in her next post.

This is not the average Rupert Murdoch Wall Street Journal Right-Wing capitalist view and I suspect socialism being used in an attempt to undermine President Obama’s Health Care Insurance Reform.  Capitalists are never for socialism for the many, only the few, privatized socialism.

I said: “Be realistic. Obama is keeping every scrap of information that his snitches can get for him. Information he isnt going to be open and transparent about.”

Outraged responds: First of all, I don’t think Pres. Obama sits around reading all that anyway…. he has others to handle that.  They then consult him, regarding major issues.

Actually I would feel better if only Obama read it. I can at least hold him accountable. You do realize, Outraged, that all these ‘others’ who ‘handle’ the .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) account have access to the names and email addresses that are collected in that account. How do we hold them accountable for what they do with the names and addresses of dissenters? We dont know they are doing and we cant find out. We dont even know who they are.

More Outraged: A nationwide organized disinformation campaign to specifically undermine facts regarding healthcare reform, IS NOT POLITICAL FREE SPEECH its propaganda.  It’s corporate undermining of democracy.  The townhall meetings and the internet rantings are backed by monied interests (in this case, the insurance corps), AND THEY ARE LYING.

It is AGAINST THE LAW to undermine the people’s right to hear and address their legislators.

There was a time when the people were the ones who had to sort out lies from truth. Well, i am glad that you trust the government so much that you want them to do it for us. I do not.

I have some good news. If you try to flag someone at Obama’s website it answers that the site wont accept your email. I guess Obama decided to do the right thing and shut it down!

Oh, and I never flagged anyone. That was only theatrical irony to make a point. But I did send emails to the Whitehouse “flag” website protesting their stupid program by flagging myself for my own criticism of the Obama plan. Which is a powerful use of irony. I would like to think it made a difference.

I want to thank Anarcissie for taking the issue seriously. She has proven that she cares about free speech even when it protects her political opponents(like me, I probably made fun of stuff she posted) especially when everyone around her either ignored the issue or defended Obama.

Such integrity and consistancy are rare. So I for one will take what she says more seriously in future. 

Kudos, Anarcissie! A Truthdig blogger who really cares about free speech for everyone and not just one side. Who would have thunk it?

Thank you for the quote,renee hardy, August 17 at 4:28 pm #, it is refreshing to read one CEO’s thoughts that actually image a populist vision of governance….A pity he is rather outnumbered , and by a great margin.

In the USA, the extent of surveillance has waxed and waned. I do not believe we are at an all time high point. We move in that direction even under Obama, even under a person who I might be inclined to give the benefit of the doubt. (see? i can be nice)

Anarcissie, thank you for taking the problem seriously. You address the issue, even though we might not agree. You take it head on. kudos.

Later, when i have time i will put something together and post on The Church Commission. Do you remember(or if you are young ‘have you heard about’) the Church commission? Maybe you will post before I can and beat me to it…

Martha asks me: What about dialog?

First, irony is a form of dialogue.

Second, Martha, why would you want to have a dialogue with me? A person like yourself would not welcome a dialogue with a “Neo Brown Shirt Disrupter,” someone who is a member of the “ORGANIZED SOCIOPATHIC RIGHT-WING POLITICAL CONSERVATIVE SOPHIST PROPAGANDA” machine.

I am committing “TREASON” just by speaking out.

What dialogue would you have with “HATE”?

OzarkMichael:
’... The price of lawful public dissent must not be a dread of subjection to an unchecked government surveillance power. For private dissent, no less than open public discourse, is essential to our free society. ...’

It’s a little bit late for your concern.  U.S. government surveillance of its own people began at least by the time of World War 2 and received a big boost during the Cold War.  The encroachments were pushed back a little after Vietnam, but then continued again in the 80s.  Mr. O is continuing in the grand tradition; I don’t think he has given up on any of the spying tools supplied him by his predecessors.  It has long since become normal politics, hence its use in public meetings about ordinary political questions. 

One should assume that anything said on the telephone, or transmitted by the Internet, has been surveilled.  I don’t know if they’re reading paper mail yet; it’s not hard to imagine a technology which would make it possible to read normal written or printed material without opening the envelope.

OzarkMichael, August 16 at 9:05 pm

Oh ,oh, youve done it now…The wrath of the Capital letters is upon you!

OzarkMichael,

What about dialog?

For Martha, Night Gaint, Outraged and a host of other ‘intellectuals’ on Truthdig who accuse me of ‘lying’ or whatever on a daily basis:

“Irony is a form of speech in which the real meaning is concealed or contradicted by the words used.”

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Irony

Please please please read it.

OzarkMichael,

The only one I know of that has been sending in anything to Obama to try to rat on people is YOU, YOU said YOU did.  No one else.  ONLY YOU.  You’re the ONE off on the disinformation tantrum to agitate the public relative to the Obama administration.  SHAME ON YOU.

Re: OzarkMichael

Your comment: “Which proves me to be correct when i said that the Left is blind to its own weakness. You are exhibit A.”

How have you come to this determination that “I am the left” (lol).  I feel certain that KDelph and most likely Folktruther would certainly disagree.

During the Bush reign of terror, I would have been called left, today I would not…  I think I’m more middle of the road, it depends which issue we’re talking about.

I once told Folktruther that I was a “redneck liberal”, an oxymoron.  I make every attempt to look at the facts, understand the situation as it stands, and proceed from there.  In one situation one thing, in another…. another thing, in some, simple logic dictates, ie. gay rights, womens rights…. we’re all Americans and should be treated as such.

“What will be done with the names that get sent in?

Be realistic. Obama is keeping every scrap of information that his snitches can get for him. Information he isnt going to be open and transparent about.”

First of all, I don’t think Pres. Obama sits around reading all that anyway…. he has others to handle that.  They then consult him, regarding major issues.

Your comment: “Outraged, you are advocating that the government should monitor the political speech of its opponents.”

A nationwide organized disinformation campaign to specifically undermine facts regarding healthcare reform, IS NOT POLITICAL FREE SPEECH its propaganda.  It’s corporate undermining of democracy.  The townhall meetings and the internet rantings are backed by monied interests (in this case, the insurance corps), AND THEY ARE LYING.

It is AGAINST THE LAW to undermine the people’s right to hear and address their legislators.

Outraged says: Firstly, I wasn’t aware “the Left” as you call it… was dangerous, this is speculation at best.

Which proves me to be correct when i said that the Left is blind to its own weakness. You are exhibit A.

Pres. Obama’s “flag the whitehouse” was for DISINFORMATION (read lies) regarding healthcare, NOT for valid and legitimate difference of opinion.

Understand that Obama is collecting a lot more than just lies. People who disagree with Obama are going to get flagged whether they have good reasons for what they say or not. Why? Because the crusading Leftist activists out there are sending in anything that looks ‘fishy’ to them, and they are sending in legitimate arguments. Also they are sending in names and email addresses, and even street addresses.

What will be done with the names that get sent in?

Do you trust Obama to throw away and erase the names of people who have valid and legitimate differences of opinion with him? Is Obama so clear headed that he will always make the proper distinction between lies and truth? Especially now that he is fighting for a cause he has staked his Presidency on?

Be realistic. Obama is keeping every scrap of information that his snitches can get for him. Information he isnt going to be open and transparent about.

Outraged, you are advocating that the government should be the arbitor of truth in a political debate. SHAME!

Outraged, you are advocating that the government should monitor the political speech of its opponents. SHAME!

Just for once break out of your prejudice.

We had the choice last year for health care reform action heros such as Dennis Kucinich, Mike Gravel, Ralph Nader, and Cynthia Mckinney but 99% the electorate ended up picking between the two villians, Mccain and Obama. So now we’re stuck with health care deform while health care reform remains a pipe dream.

Re: OzarkMichael

Your comment: “However, Outraged, you are blind to the fact that freedom can be destroyed by the Left just as easily. That blindness is what makes the Left so dangerous. I tired to use satire and irony to show that with my flag posts. You havent gotten the point, so I will be direct with you in this post, Outraged. No irony today.”

Firstly, I wasn’t aware “the Left” as you call it… was dangerous, this is speculation at best.

As regards your supposed “satire”... I say, bullshit!  I believe you when you say you we’re flagging people…. absolutely!  In hindsight you backtrack, an incriminating position…. at least to my way of reasoning.  But I wonder….hmmm…, when you were flagging what YOU called disinformation (although we all know it wasn’t) did it occur to you that maybe….. just maybe, the FBI…no..THE CIA, now has your IP address?  You know as a nuisance person… as someone CREATING PROBLEMS where there are none….?  I say this only because you appear not to think things through thoroughly and I thought that possibly it may not have occured to you.  Just a heads up.

The other issue I have with your conjecture is that the CURRENT GOVERNMENT is not leftist.  President Barack Obama ran as a populist and has endorsed POPULIST policy, this is obvious.  So your rhetoric is simply that….rhetoric.  We do not have a leftist president, nor a leftist administration…. factually, there are only a couple (2?) leftists in congress.  So your scary scenarios highlight the ignorance and partiality of your post.

Your comment: “Bill of Rights protections become especially necessary when the targets of official surveillance are those who disagree with the government’s policy.”

In this I agree.  I will also say, this is when DISSENT is actually dissent, and no LAWS have been broken.  Groups or individuals cannot break the law and then claim the victimhood of dissent.  NO. That will not hold water.

Your comment: “The Bill of Rights does not apply only to the speech you approve of, or the speech that furthers your cause. It also applies to speech that the government, even Mr Obama, does not like.”

Regarding your first premise, absolutely….I agree.  Your second, makes the implication that President Obama is suppressing valid free speech AND that disinformation is free speech.  Pres. Obama’s “flag the whitehouse” was for DISINFORMATION (read lies) regarding healthcare, NOT for valid and legitimate difference of opinion.  Disinformation is a form of propaganda, we have laws against that.

Your comment: “Just for once, Outraged, break through your prejudice against conservatives.”

This is debatable.  What are you calling “a conservative”?  Please, link to any post of mine which would give validity to your claim, I have tons of them.  Trial by implication is a slippery slope, someone’s bound to fall.

Spectacular post.

I said: “So watch what you say, even in casual conversation with your neighbor. Obama is going to make sure there isnt any ‘disinformation’ out there.”

Outraged responds: ” Now, I would worry if this was Bush’s America or run by some right-wing facist type.

Outraged, you are alert to any danger to freedom from the right. Ok, thats good. keep up the vigil.

However, Outraged, you are blind to the fact that freedom can be destroyed by the Left just as easily. That blindness is what makes the Left so dangerous. I tired to use satire and irony to show that with my flag posts. You havent gotten the point, so I will be direct with you in this post, Outraged. No irony today.

History abundantly documents the tendency of Government—however benevolent and benign its motives—to view with suspicion those who most fervently dispute its policies. Bill of Rights protections become especially necessary when the targets of official surveillance are those who disagree with the government’s policy.

The price of lawful public dissent must not be a dread of subjection to an unchecked government surveillance power. For private dissent, no less than open public discourse, is essential to our free society.

Surveillance is an attempt to intimidate dissenters. Done by the government of the USA, specifically by Obama White House.

The Bill of Rights does not apply only to the speech you approve of, or the speech that furthers your cause. It also applies to speech that the government, even Mr Obama, does not like. In fact the Bill of Rights ESPECIALLY protects the sort of speech that disagrees with government policy!

Just for once, Outraged, break through your prejudice against conservatives. Either way tell me what you think. I dont mind going ‘round and round’ with you a few more times.

Fat Freddy, August 15 at 1:07 pm #

...and will now urge that cat to stop pooping in your slippers!

Is that a reference to “Fat Freddy’s Cat”?
......................................

Well, yeah. That is what your sobriquet implies, is it not?

For some reason that other link didn’t work. The apostrophe didn’t come out right in “Freddy(’)s”

...and will now urge that cat to stop pooping in your slippers!

Is that a reference to “Fat Freddy’s Cat”?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_Freddy’s_Cat

I disagree that what we have now is anything remotely resembling a true “free market” system, if indeed such a thing is even possible.

I thought that what I have been saying is that what we have now is not a free market economy, also. The reason it is not, is because the government, through the Treasury and Federal Reserve, controls the flow of money and allocation of capital. This “centralized planning” or Macroeconomics is directly responsible for the current financial meltdown. And has been responsible for the “boom, bust” cycle we have been in since the 1920s. See: Austrian Business Cycle and F.A. Hayek. It is by no means mainstream economics on the left or right. And it is not taught in Harvard Business School, to my knowledge.

.I cannot help but wonder how you reconcile this position with your allegiance to free market capitalism?

You seem to have me confused with a right wing, “supply side”, “Reaganomics”, cold hearted prick like Larry Kudlow. I can assure you, I am not. If you must place a label on me, Left Leaning Libertarian is as good as any. I told you, when Reagan said he believed in free markets, he lied. There is nothing on the left or the right that advocates a truly free market system. Each side is pushing its own brand of Corporatism. And each side is staking its own claim to a bigger part of the pie.

Like I said, I do believe in a “social safety net”. But I also believe that what we have is no where near that.

“With all due respect, there are some good arguments to be made for free market solutions to health care. The best being, getting employers out of the business of supplying insurance to its employees. I won’t go into details, but the employer based system, along with its tax credits, has been responsible for much of the distortions in the health insurance market. There are other factors as well.”

I agree, Freddy that the drag on business from the ever increasing cost of supplying health care to its employees is harmful to the promotion of a healthy business climate. I disagree that what we have now is anything remotely resembling a true “free market” system, if indeed such a thing is even possible.

When one sees the same denials of service, the same rate structures,the same refusals to ensure certain folks, the entrapment of people in jobs they fear to lose for reasons of health care providing, the steady rise in costs system wide , including the greatly inflated costs of medication, sans a rise in real costings, one hesitates to call that anything less than monopolistic practice.

But, I do believe strongly in the “social safety net” for people who are unable to provide for themselves. This includes health care to Seniors. And by providing health care to Seniors, the government is indirectly creating an unfair market for everybody else. Mostly because Seniors are a relatively large part of the population. So, the only solution I see, is to cover everyone by extending Medicare to the entire population.

I welcome you into the light, Freddy, and will now urge that cat to stop pooping in your slippers!...I cannot help but wonder how you reconcile this position with your allegiance to free market capitalism?

...I believe that the best governance for this the twenty first century in America is a mix of capitalism, strongly regulated as it needs be, and socialism where applicable to “promote the general welfare”...I just lost Freddy I fear and that cat is looking hard at his headphones!

An excellent article Ms. Goodman.  How ironic for Kiefer Sutherland to play this “24” role.  Although… he has played other, possibly for “fitting” roles.  Remember…. he is/was… “A MUSKETEER…..”

One of the most entertaining movie scenes:

During D’Artagnan’s mad dash in an attempt to escape the machinations of his nemesis, Girard… D’Artagnan inadvertently causes Porthos’ sash to be soaked with ale.

“Porthos: “Excuse me….., this sash was a gift to me from the queen of America”

Porthos: “I beg to differ, infant.... we are on “quite intimate terms” unless you can prove otherwise.”

Of course, the motto of the MUSKETEERS is:

ALL FOR ONE, AND ONE FOR ALL.

ENDORSE SINGLE PAYER

With all due respect, there are some good arguments to be made for free market solutions to health care. The best being, getting employers out of the business of supplying insurance to its employees. I won’t go into details, but the employer based system, along with its tax credits, has been responsible for much of the distortions in the health insurance market. There are other factors as well.

But, I do believe strongly in the “social safety net” for people who are unable to provide for themselves. This includes health care to Seniors. And by providing health care to Seniors, the government is indirectly creating an unfair market for everybody else. Mostly because Seniors are a relatively large part of the population. So, the only solution I see, is to cover everyone by extending Medicare to the entire population. Paid for, by an across the board payroll tax. This will consolidate the resources necessary to provide health care to the population. Currently, these resources are coming from many different areas. The amount of resources needed will not change that much, but a consolidation will make it much simpler. An old Foreman of mine said to me “If it makes your job easier, it’s going to save you time. If it saves you time, you’ll make more money.”

“I personally do not want to be forced to pay for someone else’s poor lifestyle choices. “

Then perhaps you might move to an island inhabited only by yourself. This myth you promote , Blue Eagle that we are all going to be forced to pay for the indulgences of others, serves only to obfuscate and make more difficult the truth of our health care system and the need to reform it. Why waste our time with such?

As to [B]OzarkMichael[/B], August 13 at 1:23 pm # , AND THIS TYPICAL EXTREMIST RANT ABOUT THE “GOVT CONTROLLING OUR LIVES” Sorry, caps seem all the rage these days…..Nice try Mikey, but no sale here.

herewegoagain,

I never see that from either the diehard libertarians or the devout socialists. I think both camps tend to be rather impractical.

Impracticality will always be present when there’s strict adherence to any system of rules or guidelines in politics, religion and/or economics.

Blue Eagle,

You still haven’t answered my question. How do the elderly get health care in a truly free market?

Here it is:

I argue that no one over the age of 65 would be able to obtain any health coverage, at any price, in a totally free market system. Care to argue that point?

Well do you? There can be no free market with so many people relying on government hand outs for health care. That 1.45% taken out of your paycheck, Medicare. The government will never be able to get out of health care because the elderly will not be able to obtain health insurance anywhere in a free market. It would be like trying to insure someone with 3 accidents, 5 speeding tickets and 2 DWIs with auto insurance. It can’t be done. So, as long as government is involved there will be subsidies to insurance companies, doctors and hospitals that will create unfair competitive advantages for some health providers and insurers. The same way farm subsidies created unfair advantages to corporate growers, so will subsidies in health care to corporate insurers. These unfair competitive advantages make it difficult, if not impossible, for small and medium size insurers to provide the necessary market competition that keep costs down to both the consumer and the tax payer.  So, unless you can come up with a way to treat all of these Senior Citizens, without government intervention, then you’re argument is a fallacy. You say you want free markets in health care, but I don’t think you understand what free markets are, or how they operate.

And regarding plastic surgery and laser eye surgery. Are you fucking kidding me. How many people do you know actually choose to get sick? The answer, zero!
Buck up, pay your taxes, and smile. Otherwise those 22,000 deaths a year will be on your hands.

{i]Well, nobody seems to care that the Predator drones being used in Af’Pak are being used along the Canadian border by the USA

We gotta break up your hockey fights somehow.

Thank you Amy. It’s important we learn the lessons of history. As for the “debate,” there’s a difference between disrupting meetings with relevant concerns & disrupting meetings with defamatory screaming incited by radical right flingers. (“Obama scares me!  No Death Panels!” We are now booing civil discourse & debate, without which our nation would not have been founded.)  When a group like Code Pink disrupts an event (called CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE, used by all of our greatest patriots), it asks first to be heard, then if ignored, it states its concerns, then peacefully goes with whatever officer is nearby to make interrupters leave the room.  These “town halls” have no such protocol, nor are they given guidelines such as the ones CODE PINK gives its members. (Specifically stating common courtesy must be used at all times.) The “tea parties” are not dissent. They are a minority of people who have been gulled by MSM radicals to act like idiots. If you think this isn’t possible, ask the convicted war-criminals of the Rwandan genocide (convicted IN Rwanda), many of whom were radical radio “commentators” who helped incite genocide with radio hate-mongering. In this country, these people makes a mockery of the First Amendment, make those participating unwitting enablers of the elitist addiction to power & greed, & shout down those who need reform, like small businesses, which create up to 80 percent of all our new jobs.  It also makes the U.S. look stupid to the rest of the world.  We are the country where bureaucrats at for-profit companies interfere with care, ability to get care, & ability to pay for care. Poll after poll shows that the majority of Americans - two-thirds or more - understand this & want some kind of reasonable reform, with most of our doctors, seniors & vets wanting all of us to have access to Medicare &/or VA benefits, because they like these systems (even if imperfect).  This would help the Medicare baby-boom crisis because the costs would be amortized across the healthy & less healthy, rather than just those most likely to need care.  All other major democracies have better healthcare (in technology AND in access and outcomes) while keeping MARKET economies.  Some include private insurers (requiring that they remain not-for-profit). They also include agriculture policy, like regulating factory-farm activity, which is why their rates of obesity are so much lower than ours. (The statistical correlation between the rise of factory farms, loss of family farms, and increasing obesity & related ill health is eerie.)

No system is perfect, but these systems rank better in mortality and morbidity than the U.S. (we’re 37). They understand that this is an essential issue of INFRASTRUCTURE, because a democracy’s real wealth lies in its people’s health & happiness (which demonstrably increases productivity). It’s why we consider schools & libraries part of our infrastructure. We must end the conflicts of interest & disinformation. We need to talk to Canada or Taiwan to brainstorm a system, as more astute members of Congress - on both sides of the aisle - have suggested. As for Amy & DemocracyNOW, they might choose stories that slant slightly left, but they follow principles of journalism. The MSM does not.

With all the propaganda we suffer from a small group of loudmouthed right flingers & corp. elites in the MSM, at least DN offers some degree of balance.  As for Amy’s personal POV, this is an OPINION COLUMN. She’s allowed.

Our founders guaranteed us our unalienable rights, LIFE, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.  Our charters also guarantees all of us the right to express NON-DEFAMATORY concerns or grievances - which is critical when the powerful use power to do terrible things.

Americans perpetually fail to **appreciate how much money the US ‘pay to play HealthCare Deniers are dumping INTO CANADA

why?

1.  if you don’t have Canada’s care… why to whom will people point for local differences in care standards?

2.  THEY WANT TO TURN CANADIAN HEALTHCARE INTO A PROFIT CENTRE FOR AMERICAN CORPORATIST BASTARDS.

I’m not softwood, fish or any other ‘harvestable resource’... but that isn’t stopping American players from INUNDATING MY NATION WITH THEIR PROPAGANDA to do exactly that:  turn my health into THEIR off-shore profits!

Those cretins care even LESS about destroying my nation’s infrastructure than they do for Latin America, Caribbean or the USA…

These American foundations & ‘professional associations have been dumping MASSIVE SUMS OF FUNDING into ‘privatizing’ Canada or instituting a ‘two-tier<?i>’ system (one for the Poor, one for the Rich… which eventually becomes, <i>why are we taking care of the Un-Rich??)

I’d appreciate it if Americans would pay attention to these ‘little’ details:

Your institutions ARE TRYING TO KILL MY NEIGHBOURS & OUR INFRASTRUCTURE.

Reminds me of that Syriana moment:  Corruption?  Corruption!  Corruption is why we WIN!

are Americans going to *ignore* this assault on their neighbours & largest trading partners??  or simply rejoice that they’re finding a means to screw over non-Americans for their OverLords’ benefit?  Well, nobody seems to care that the Predator drones being used in Af’Pak are being used along the Canadian border by the USA

Having seen what the US is willing to overlook & tolerate in the Caribbean & Latin America, I’ve long since determined that Canadians have more in common with them than citizens of the USA.

@liecatcher - Excellent point.

@Anarcissie - Yes, I would like to eliminate government control of medical care. As far as the Constitution goes, whatever is not explicitly stated in the Constitution gets relegated to the States. It is NOT up to Congress or the President, unless there is an Amendment to the Constitution. Health care, therefore, should be a State issue (10 Amendment).

@herewegoagain - of course everyone should have access to food, clothing, shelter and health care. I do not think the government should steal (taxes) from the American people to pay for any procedure some doctor recommends. For those that are unable to provide for themselves, I personally have taught them “to fish” and have had success, and have given “fish” away, which has been a failure. Under a government plan an alcoholic can get a new liver, a smoker a new lung, a meat eater bypass surgery and YOU and I will be FORCED to pay for it.

My answer to you is that market forces aren’t taking place when it come to health care. Free-market capitalism has been stymied when it come to health care. The best example is elective surgeries. Laser eye surgery and plastic surgery costs have come down.

To your later post… who gets to define what’s right or what’s enough? You? Does this person have the right foods to eat, does this person have the right house to live in? Is suitable shelter? Does this person have the health care they deserve? Would you like a government bureaucrat to decide on these matters? I surely wouldn’t.

People need to take of themselves, their families, and their communities and not look to government for solutions. I am a 50% raw food non-strict vegan, exercise 5x a week and get plenty of sunshine (Vitamin D). Why? Because I want to live a long healthy live. 75% of all breast and colon cancer can be *prevented* by getting sunshine (Vitamin D). [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FMlQeH8RFA ] To me that is the solution to the health care issue.

It is scientifically proven that the 4 top killers today (not including the health care system itself) are preventable (and reversible) self-inflicted problems.

1. Heart Disease
2. Diabetes
3. Prostate/Breast Cancer
4. Obesity

I personally do not want to be forced to pay for someone else’s poor lifestyle choices.

Re: OzarkMichael

Your comment: “And if someone’s actual name and address are on the information we send in, then Obama is going to keep that in his database. Serves you right too!

So watch what you say, even in casual conversation with your neighbor. Obama is going to make sure there isnt any ‘disinformation’ out there.”

Really…. did you flag me too..?  Now, I would worry if this was Bush’s America or run by some right-wing facist type.  Do you realize that what you’re saying is in support of fascism…..?  It’s not FREEDOM, it’s fascism.  It’s not DEMOCRACY, it’s fascism.  Are you in favor of fascism?  Think about it, first these groups were saying that Pres. Obama was a Nazi….. now, these groups are saying that Pres. Obama is a socialist.  These are almost completely opposite philosophies…... something is definitely wrong with their REASONING.  One cannot be Fascist and Socialist…. how ridiculous is that?

“They’re back. Almost a decade after largely disappearing from public view, right-wing militias, ideologically driven tax defiers and sovereign citizens are appearing in large numbers around the country. “Paper terrorism” — the use of property liens and citizens’ “courts” to harass enemies — is on the rise. And once-popular militia conspiracy theories are making the rounds again, this time accompanied by nativist theories about secret Mexican plans to “reconquer” the American Southwest. One law enforcement agency has found 50 new militia training groups — one of them made up of present and former police officers and soldiers. Authorities around the country are reporting a worrying uptick in Patriot activities and propaganda. “This is the most significant growth we’ve seen in 10 to 12 years,” says one. “All it’s lacking is a spark. I think it’s only a matter of time before you see threats and violence.”

A key difference this time is that the federal government — the entity that almost the entire radical right views as its primary enemy — is headed by a black man. That, coupled with high levels of non-white immigration and a decline in the percentage of whites overall in America, has helped to racialize the Patriot movement, which in the past was not primarily motivated by race hate. One result has been a remarkable rash of domestic terror incidents since the presidential campaign, most of them related to anger over the election of Barack Obama. At the same time, ostensibly mainstream politicians and media pundits have helped to spread Patriot and related propaganda, from conspiracy theories about a secret network of U.S. concentration camps to wholly unsubstantiated claims about the president’s country of birth.”

http://www.splcenter.org/news/item.jsp?pid=414

from the Obama Whitehouse:

“There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care.  These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation.  Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address).”

from the Whitehouse Blog:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/

So then i read this by Mestizo Warrior:

I voted for Obama and I am very disappointed…  When I see how much bribe money the corporatists spend on buying politicians, it sickens me. Do these bastards have NO morals?

Well, thats a misleading attack on the healthcare plan. So I reported it to .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), Just the way our fearless leader Obama wants me to.

And if someone’s actual name and address are on the information we send in, then Obama is going to keep that in his database. Serves you right too!

So watch what you say, even in casual conversation with your neighbor. Obama is going to make sure there isnt any ‘disinformation’ out there.

We dont need an action hero. We already have Obama.

Flag someone today!

My goodness quite a few arguments on both sides ( multiple sides actually) of the issue….

I only watched that show, ‘24’ for about five minutes one evening. It so disgusted me with its balatant propaganda and apology for torture that I have lost all respect for Mr. Sutherland.

The bottom line, in my opinion, is whether or not one recognizes ones obligations as a citizen of these United States. A nation is judged, not by how well the most priviledged live, but by how well we the people care for those less priviledged and in need. We fail this test abysmally.

Those who prattle about “govt controlled health care” quickly put that Medicare card in their wallets. They also fail the litmus test of understanding how badly this nation fares against the health care of many, many other nations. Thirty six other nations to be precise have better care than do we, twelve have lower infant mortality rates, many of their citizens live longer, healthier and more fulfilling lives because of their access to such care. We lead only in the expense of our system, two and one half times that of the second place nation. Sixty percent of all bankruptcies involve health care costs and thousands each month lose what health insurance they had.

Prattle on, dear citizens, about govt control and such nonsense. Know that , should you suffer catastrophic health issues you will lose everything.

Oh, and as one of those early boomers that purplegirl so roundly castigates, and for no apparent reason other than ,perhaps, her realtionship with her parents, thanks for the distortions and the lumping of all of us in your garbage can. What is next for you I wonder? Do Philipinos come quick? Are all black men well endowed sexually?

Dems have always been the Champions of Medicare- yet it seems the Seniors of today have forgotten that. Have they forgotten Which political party Created medicare, has fought throughout the decades to maintian this Entitlement program? Too Much Pot Boomers, or just crazy flashback to those ‘electric koolaid Acid tests’???
Let’s look at those who have their Depends in a twist over healthcare reform, Republican Seniors. And who now dominates the demographic, Boomers. Not your exaggerated definition of a generation as so often portrayed ‘46- 63. But the real Boomers who were born in the era surrounding WW2, more like ‘38-50. Let’s not forget the Korean War had sociological impacts, along with suburbanization after ‘50 and McCarthyism. Then comes the JFK years. That overextended defintion of a generation was a marketing Ploy.There are acutally 3 generations within the current defintion- Boomers, Suburbanites and Kennedy Kids.
And guess which ones recently got their Medicare cards.Boomers should have been called ‘The Me Generation’. They started on a altruistic path in their 20’s (1960’s), but epitomized the catch phrase ‘Greed is Good’ through out the ‘80’s and ‘90’s- At the peak of their powers.Now they face the struggles their grandparents and parent had, and are not going to let it happen to them. Only problem is it was THEM who screwed their elders for the last few decades.
While Dems have fought to maintain Medicare and Soc Sec. all these yrs, this gorup has been trying to destroy them- until now when it effects them.
Seems this new batch of Seniors are more concerned about making sure Viagra remains on the Medicare reimburseable list, then addressing our Infant Mortality rate. ‘Generational Theft’, ‘Death panels’- something the Repug Boomers should know plenty about, they’ve perfected to an Art form.

To: Outraged, August 12 at 11:32 pm

Thanks for shining light on a fungus.

I listened to the opulent, corpulent & crapulent one for several weeks

until it became unbearable. However,I did learn that Rush is a magnet for the

undereducated, uneducated & the “great unwashed”, as he likes to

call his fans.

Health Care Reform Needs an Action Hero , Posted on Aug 11, 2009 , By Amy Goodman

” Imagine the scene. America 2009. Eighteen thousand people have died in one year, an average of almost 50 a day.

Who’s taking them out? What’s killing them? ... It’s lack of adequate health care.”

Now permit me to ask a question: Who killed 783,936 in 2003 ?

The answer is: “Medical system is leading cause of death and injury in US”

“The total number of iatrogenic deaths shown in the following table is 783,936 in 2003.”

For more specific & shocking numbers, GOOGLE:

“Medical system is leading cause of death and injury in US”

The MEDICAL INSURANCE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX:MIPIC

” treats” the public as prey, performing unnecessary & invasive procedures to

increase it’s bottom line. If MIPIC added the funeral industry to it’s cabal, then it could

exploit we the people from conception to the early grave.

Re: OzarkMichael

Your comment: “Hypocrisy, thy name is Democracy Now!”

OzarkMichael, now I remember in the past you and I going ‘round and ‘round and I think it was a debate about religion.  You have this situation turned on its head.  Who is telling you this shit.  What are you reading?  You have the whole damn thing ass-backwards.

The reason Ms. Goodman is saying that is because these IDIOTS, like Limbaugh, like Beck and like the insurance companies ARE USING YOU!  Can’t you see that…?  It’s not hypocrisy!

They are using FEAR, which BTW, they invented/created…. to have you ignorantly support their pocketbook.  They say that ALL GOVERNMENT is evil, yet…. think about it…. they want control of the government.  If ALL government is evil, as they say….. why do they want it so badly.  And why were these very same people SUPPORTING GW Bush, who said “the Constitution is just a Goddamn piece of paper”.  It’s bullshit. (is that okay with you?)  It’s a lie.  They are using YOU to further their aims.  They want YOU to do their dirty work for them.

Think about it…. why would YOU go down and holler you’re ass off in FAVOR of getting fucked over by the insurance companies or the dirty rich bastards that are GLEN BECK or RUSH LIMBAUGH?  They think you’re dumber than a “box of rocks” for doing it, they do.

Explain to me why….. why are you backing up the rich dirty bastards…  Look, I grew up….. about half of my childhood in racist areas, I heard all the shit.  I heard all the fear talk:

“Watch out, the socialists are commies and will control your life”.  “The government wants every dime you have.”  “Black people are sub-human…. they really are… and if they ever gain a foothold they’ll kill all the white people… they hate us.”

These are lies, OzarkMichael.  Outright lies.  They are trying to scare you….SO THAT THEY can control you, not the other way around.  Use your head.

Have you ever met or talked to an actual Black person, a Mexican-American, a Chinese-American or any other AMERICAN, other than a white one….?  Seriously….. have you?  How do you know what they think or might say, if you’ve never talked to them?  They are AMERICANS, just like you…. just like me.  AMERICANS.

Are you stupid enough to simply believe that Lou Dobbs, Limbaugh, Beck or any of these other filthy rich nutjobs really care about YOU!  They’re LYING!  They are chicken-shits too.  Did you see Hannity so totally kiss Jesse Ventura’s ass…. what a weasel.

This from Any Goodman, a person who is proud if people disrupt meetings when conservatives speak at a university:

Rush Limbaugh, Fox News Channel’s Glenn Beck and insurance-industry-funded groups are encouraging people to disrupt town hall meetings with members of Congress

Hypocrisy, thy name is Democracy Now!

BlueEagle—if you are serious about getting the government out of medical care, then you have to eliminate government control of medical care and thereby break the present monopoly.  It’s not a matter of utopia but simple, practical logic.

In other news, the Constitution does mandate positive things which the government must do, and many others powers and duties were taken for granted by those who wrote it.  They weren’t anywhere near being anarchists.  There is nothing in the Constitution to either compel or prohibit government medical care or medical insurance.  It is up to Congress and the President.

Okay, I’ll take ‘em one at a time.

@Fat Freddy - The Constitution specifies what the government cannot do. It restrains government, it does not grant. For instance, You have the right to life, which means the government cannot take away your life. You have the right to bear arms, meaning the government cannot take away your right to own a gun. It does not mean that the government is mandated to protect your life or give you life in form of health care, just like the government is not mandated to give you a gun at birth.

No Freddy it is YOUR money. You need to change your frame of mind. Try to think about it this way - every time the goverment spends a dollar it’s coming out of your pocket, becuase it actually is. Rules - now we’re going let the government start setting rules on who lives and who dies. Do you really want to go down that slippery slope. I’d rather not let the government dictate these decisions.

@Anarcisse - Yes, we will never reach utopia, but I prefer to strive toward perfection as a goal.

@KDelphi - Do you advocate nationalizing all farms so that everyone gets to eat as much as everyone else? Should we nationalize all clothing manufacturers and home builders as well? Do the homeless have the right to live in any home they want? I believe you do not understand the definition of “right” and/or perhaps you would like to live in a communist society.

1) We see that the prices for all elective surgeries are going down. The reason is because free-market forces are playing out. I would like the same thing to happen for all medical procedures.

2) We have lost touch with god and family. In the past, churches (communities) and family members helped each out voluntarily. That is how I would like the health care system to work. I am against the draft and any forced service. I want you and everyone else to have the freedom and the liberty to choose which doctor you want to see and when. Under a government system, you do not have these choices.

@Outraged - I feel that families should take care of their parents/grandparents and encourage people to make donations to non-profits, such as churches, to help those families that can’t pay the full bill. This was the system before the government got involved, and sort of happens today, but the non-profits are squeezed out of the system by Medicare. I am against theft (taxes) and government forced anything. I am for voluntary service and kindness of others.

The other day, I heard one of our elected officials talking about the “War on Terror,” and the need to keep the United States safe from the terrorists. “If we don’t fight them over there, we will have to fight them here.” It’s the same rhetoric that we’ve been listening to since 2001, and still, there is no end in sight, and we are now in Pakistan, too. How many more people have to die?

My next thought was about the 18,000-22,000, depending on the report, people in the U.S. who die each year from lack of health care. If we die due to not being able to afford health care, because we don’t have the right kind of health care, or if we have been rejected for treatment by our health care company, what good is the so-called “War on Terror?” Are we safe? The 18,000-22,000 citizens would say “NO,” if they could speak.

Lastly, I thought—if our elected officials were really committed to the safety of the citizens of this country, they would pass single-payer health care without waiting another day. That legislation would, or could, be the first step to assuring that we, citizens, are truly safe.

Instead, we find out that Barack Obama has already worked out a deal with Billy Tauzin—no price negotiations for prescription drugs. And, we know Obama is opposed to universal, single-payer health reform. I’ve heard Obama say that NOT everyone would be covered with his bill—and, insurance reform—that’s on the agenda. Everyone in, and nobody out, complete with a fine if you don’t, or can’t, buy insurance—just another shift of wealth upwards in the U.S.A.

Are the people of the United States safer? NO!!

THERE IS A DEATH PANEL_!!

I was wrong. The “free mkt” put it in place.

Its called the private insurance industry.

If the South (not all of you) has so little morality that they cannot provide for fellow citizens at their most vulnerable (not charity—its degrading and unreliable—JUSTICE is what is needed), they need to secede. I dont want to live in the same country with them

You cant argue that the “constiution” (that piece of shit paper drawn up by greedy , rich, white Anglos), can be argued as to whether it provides for general welfare.

But I sure sa f*ck am sick of paying for these bastereds wars of adventure, your private schools and charter schools that teach kids that there were baby dinosauts on Noah’s Ark, (I have a stake in the next generation too!)Congress and president’s health care and plush lifestyles and I would much rather invest in my fellow citizens then fu*king Wall St—it should be shut down. Some day it will be and actual rats will crawl….

But, thats not a choice—yes, we all pay taxes.

I say we have an opt out. If you cant afford insurance when you get old, you die. Its what happens now anyway. But at least the poor and sick would have an option…they arent even allowed to DIE legally, now!!

I paid for Cheney’s health care—now you have the decency to pay for a poor fellow citizen’s care, or let the north and east and west secede. Point your guns back at yourselves.

Go do a Civil Wat re=enactment with live ammo, you cowards.

There seem to be an awful lot of BlueEagle’s out there in the good ol US of A. They are still in the minority of course, but they are well funded, scream very loud, and share the same vision of america, an america where the talented, successful and connected people enjoy the friuts of the nations riches, and the rest of us poor bastards who, for one reason or another, are unsuccessful, and thus fucked. Your parents didn’t have enough money to send you to college, too bad. You went anyway and borrowed $150 thousand, too bad. You went to a high school that had a metal detector, and you had to duck bullets to get there, too bad. You mom and dad lost their jobs in the factory and had to work at Wal-mart for a third of their old wages and no benefits, while you go to a cold school building with an undiagnosed illness because you cannot afford to go to the doctor, too bad. You retired from a company that eliminated it’s pension plan and retiree medical insurance, and now you have to move into your allready cash strapped son’s house and cause his family even more financial stress, too bad.

This is BlueEagle’s america. Unfortunatley, this is many people’s version of america. And it’s turning us into this facist state of haves and have nots.

What’s that, the old man across the street fell while shoveling snow and is laid up with a broken leg? In the america I grew up in, we would shovel his snow for him. Take him a meal once a day or so. We would make sure he was comfortable, because there but for the grace of god, go I. But the america I grew up in is dead. The Corporations have made us turn on each other. We are a nation of profit seeking pricks. What’s in it for me?

This Healthcare debate is the begining of the end. For if we cannot take care of our sick, what good are we.

I am not a religeous man, but I do remember that line from Sunday school, I believe that Jesus fellow said it, “How you treat the most unfortunate of my Brothers, so shall you treat Me”.

Amy, Amy. Amy…. You too?

This is not even close to a health care reform bill. You set yourself up a straw man to defend.

I am actually a contributor to the show, but I am AMAZED especially at your criticism of protestors. You of all people know how organizing works. It sinks about to the level of your embarrassing show in which you shouted down Lou Dobbs with Juan Gonzales. You squandered a great opportunity to get to the truth. I lost respect then and again, today.

Perhaps the stupidest thing I have seen of Amy Goodman is the total refusal to admit that 9-11 would not hold up to investigative scrutiny.

“Democratic” gatekeepers, such as yourself, haven’t been that great on the facts lately. I won’t say you are paid by Obama but I believe you enjoy a certain amount of patting on the back, and perhaps the (very) occasional invitation. Don’t you realize that the Obama-operatives scorn you? You seem so confused.

A lot of so-called activists have questionable motives, even for the right causes. It reminds me of when Code Pink sold out the efforts to change offshore sewing slave camps. She actually went behind the backs of the other groups she was cooperating with to “make a deal” that, in the end, didn’t change much and put an end to the entire effort. But it made Medea Benjamin feel good and no doubt advanced her activist “career”.

I’m looking for a lot more truth, guts and gumption from someone like you, Amy.

Adult supervision would probably do the trick without a super hero. The Republican party has nothing to offer but jr high school ‘teacher is a doody head’ stick figures. They sit on their fat thighbones enjoying their government run health care while they hope the majority will screw the pooch so they can continue to give away the store to their wealthy supporters in the health complex.
The American people need to step up to the plate and become their own super hero. Truth, justice and the American way shouldn’t sound so quaint and silly. As it is today their is no justice, just us.

This about sums up what is wrong with the plan:

“According to press reports Tuesday, the drug industry lobby PhRMA will launch a $150 million advertising blitz in support of Obama’s healthcare reform drive, after the White House reaffirmed its promise that it will limit the industry’s “contribution” to the cost of healthcare restructuring to the $80 billion agreed on in closed-door talks between Obama aides and PhRMA chief Billy Tauzin (a founding member of the “Blue Dogs” before he left Congress to become an open rather than concealed representative of the drug manufacturers)....

...Obama has repeatedly avowed his support for capitalist medicine, and the “right” of drug companies, the insurance companies, the medical equipment manufacturers, and a host of other parasites to profit from the sick. His differences with his Republican opponents are purely tactical, and largely concern which sections of corporate America will benefit the most from the current legislative undertaking.

Nothing that emerges from the machinations of big business politicians and corporate lobbyists in Washington can serve the needs of working people. Medical care must be made available to every American citizen and resident, provided for at state expense as a basic human right. This requires the nationalization of the insurance companies, the drug companies, and all the other healthcare profiteers, and the establishment of a system of socialized medicine provided free to all who need it.”

Patrick Martin

BlueEagle—Yes, everyone has a right to food, clothing, shelter, the basics of life—no one asked to be born. And, I am certain you are against euthanasia,  so it is unconstitutional (like the Constitution means anything) to make them suffer.

I used to give Ron Paul supporters a listen—alot of what they were saying seem to make sense. But, when you tell me I must die if I cannot work—-what do you suppose my response will be?

The Constitution you glorify would make me a non-voter (I am female) If you are Native Am, you sure as HELL wouldnt be able to vote, carry a gun, and would be 2/3 of a person—-ok, have it your way.

I live well below poverty level and you can take $150 a mo out of my lousy small check to get me out of Medicaid and into HR 676…it works everywhere else—in civilzied countries.

I’m sick of Paul—he never proposes anything but faux “fredom” to die with your “rights ” on.

I would move to a socialist country in a heartbeat, if I could have my pension (which I had to give yp to get Medicaid ) back…if they didnt get a flood of USANs too quickly, who seem to spread Anglo gred wherever they go..

“For those that want to live in the land of the free and the home of the brave we will stand and fight to keep the government out of our lives.”

As to this jingoism—wtf arent you at war??

The home of the brave robo-drones….tough guys, real men, right…..the US is itself a predator drone.There is nothing “free” or brave about the way the US is behaving at home , nor internationally.

If Paul supporters would show some compassion for others and less steadfasst adherence to laws that make 52% of the population irrelevant, perhaps they would become more than a fringe group.
There are some of them out therre, but , when I hear form people like you, I know I just cant support it…good luck.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/aug2009/pers-a12.shtml

There is no “Action Hero” that can save Health Care Reform, because all of this shouting and outrage has very little to do with Health Care. It has everything to do with mistrust of Obama.

Conservative pundits have spent decades demonizing “liberals” and the last few years stoking every fear people have (real or imagined) of Barack Hussein Obama.

Here’s just a few of the absurd claims against him:

* He is not an American citizen
* He “pals around with terrorists”
* He is a Socialist, Marxist, Fascist, Nazi, etc…
* He wants to take away your guns
* He is a Muslim
* He wants to kill old people
* He is a racist
* He is a liar, liar, LIAR!

By feeding peoples inherant fear of the “other” and perpetuating our nations history of “fear of the black man”, the rightwing has increased the mistrust of many who were suspicious to begin with. After years of this incessant nonsense, conservatives (and many libertarians) are convinced that everything Obama (or any other Democrat) says is a lie. There is no convincing folks, no matter how reasonable or logical you are, if they believe deep down that everything you say is an attempt to deceive them. The conversation stops before you even open your mouth.

These people are so indoctrinated to the policies of fear and hate that they cling to their misconceptions even in face of incontrovertable evidence. They are so desperate to have it “not be so” that their irrational disbelief is all they have holding their world view together. To accept the truth would shatter their “reality”.

BlueEagle:
’... On your point to compassion, the costs will actually rise with a government run plan and the poor will be hurt the most because they will be taxed indirectly through inflation or directly through withholdings.’

That’s possible, but the present historical evidence is otherwise.  At present, advanced countries with government-paid medical services experience lower costs than the U.S.  You need to cite some evidence going the other way, which seems to be pretty hard to find.

In any case, if you really want to get the government out of the medical care business, you would have to break up the present monopoly structure of medical care and insurance providers and institutions, malpractice laws and lawyers, and so forth.  Completely deregulating medical practice would certainly bring prices down; however, some of the care might not be of the best quality.  Many people are not willing to take such a radical step.  In that case—if there’s going to be a monopoly—one way to control it is through political regulation.

Almost 10 years ago medicine was rocked by the scandal that almost 100,000 die of medical mistakes each year in this country. There was a plan to try and half that number by 2004. Instead, however, now 200,000 people die every year from mistakes made by Doctors. This is happening while profits run into the multiple billions. Your chances of being killed by your Doctor are greater than being killed in a car accident.

This is happening while America is the most obese country in the world, the most drug addicted, and the one with the most mental illness.

We also have the worst health of any industrialized nation in the world, and spend the most money on it.

Enter the Republican party and the Blue Dog Democrats, and their brown shirts with their B.S.,  willing to lie cheat and steal, and distort the truth, to protect the profits of their masters.

Disease in this country is highly profitable, as witnessed by those who have to declare bankrupcy to pay their medical bills. The Plutocracy, the HMO’s, the Neo Cons, and their ilk, could care less, how many American’s they kill in the process of becoming rich.

Their good at jerking off peoples anger, that’s one of the many ways they prosper.

Blue Eagle,

simple questions for you. A 100 year old man can live an extra year if he gets a heart transplant at the cost of $100,000. Should the government spend your money to keep him alive for an extra year?

First of all, it’s not my money, it’s our money. Second of all, there are already rules in place for heart transplants. And no, a 100 year old man probably wouldn’t qualify. So your example is MOOT. So, do we deny him all health care and just let him suffer? You missed my point completely. I argue that no one over the age of 65 would be able to obtain any health coverage, at any price, in a totally free market system. Care to argue that point?

The Framers of the Constitution didn’t address health care because they didn’t have health care, they had leeches. And anyone could afford a few leeches.

I’ll be honest, I wish a free market could handle health care. But, there could never be a truly free market in this case. But even worse than a single-payer system is a government-private partnership where government doles out huge subsidies to a few select insurance companies in return for various perks (campaign contributions, future employment, etc.)

We are all going to have to pay for everybody else’s health care. And, in fact, we already do.

Re: BlueEagle, August 11 at 8:13 pm

“We already have one. His name is Ron Paul (aka The Good Doctor).

Health care is a privilege, NOT a right.”

O-k-a-y…... “BlueEagle”, explain how healthcare IN YOUR SELF-CONCEIVED IDEALISM is a privilege.

Additionally “BlueEagle”, do you have some ideal STATE in mind?  You know…. a Utopia of some sort?

And have you considered that possibly Ron Paul has lost all sense of REALITY?  Do you require a “hero”?  Truth is that, all superheroes ARE FICTION, no matter the mantra.

Shit! Let’s bring in another fictional anti hero, jack bauer, whom mitch rapp would flick off like an ant on table, that ‘tortures’ to save america, what a plate of grease and load of crap that is and it DOES NOT have a place in a dialog about healthcare.

What is happening is the people that want a single payer health plan to help with medical needs and receive health care but can’t pay for it, better start lining up the night before and even earlier to beat these conservative operatives who seemly are able and willing to pay for medical and health care out of their pockets or through some charlatan insurance company taking their money for the investors who are the real lazy, worthless non-producers in this country and want the system to remain ‘as is’ so as to deny those unable to pay the chance for medical and health care, truly a traitorous group of people trying to keep propping up american corporations with bogus insurances for that care.

So be ready to ‘out shout’ the crud trying to prevent those unabled to pay from receiving medical or health care.

Would Tommy Douglas stand a chance in U.S. of A. of now? Probably not. Not before another five decades or so of devastation, or not at least until far more thousands are discovered (not never) by media to be dying annually for lack of “access” to pretty simple human right. Or the far more hundreds of thousands living with variety of affliction—mental and physical—going untreated for fear of winding up bankrupt. If you can live with it at all, don’t go there, Sanjay’s advice aside. Whether sick brains, sick teeth and eyes (neither regarded by “free” market as parts of human body) or sick body otherwise.

Media’s forever talking of “checking first with your doctor.” What doctor, Sanjay? Oh, the one appointed by my HMO. What choice? Take an Aspirin, which might at least ward off a heart attack, pending going bust in two ways.

While media advocates “free speech.” Who knew that meant freely repeating words of liars? Along with accepting payment from liar PACs looking to lie on a larger scale? TV media at least 30% (likely more) sponsored by PHRMA (including Nutri-System). Otherwise by banks (which kill) and ambulance-chasers (which also kill). BM by now purely in the myth biz. Such that one cannot distinguish between paid-for lying and lying free of charge. So long as “free.”

So a pistol-packin’ momma’s boy put in appearance at Deadwood, NH, where too the president put on a show. Later, Matthews had the kid on Sotfball for about five minutes of fame. Natch. Chris did actually say, “goddamn gun,” on free TV. Indeed, who brings a gun to a meeting with the Pres? A Jeffersonian, not to mention pale,  and with Gibsonian, or Keiferian, facial growth, “free”-marketeer is who. Natch.

Remember, single-payer “cant’ be done” (Obama), or is a “nonstarter” (Lynn Woolsey, so-called “progressive”), or just today, according to McCaskill, none (she later corrected herself to mean most) in Congress will even consider, and so attendees still under spell at her town hall should not worry so much (for interest not their own). 

What democracy? What learning? Sherrod (also of party of Clintons)?

Lately too, Obama accusing the left of hypocrisy in connection with Honduran coupe. Claiming the left is hypocritically calling for “intervention.” Really? I’ve not heard or read that on the serious left. Sorry. What was that, Mr. President? That part about hypocrisy?

Are we still supposed to take this president and his party of cringing cowards, let alone other party of pathological of liars, remotely seriously? If the president can’t get it done, then maybe he should resign to make way for another Tommy Douglas who’d at least make an effort to do more than offer up what not hardly will amount to any kind of serious “reform” of insurance con. While he claims that only the top four percent might have to pay a few bucks more outta their $250 large per annum. On which amount they already can’t get by, what with cost of a yacht these days.

“Tanks”—idiomatically AND literally—for nuttin’, Mr. President.

My erstwhile U.S. of A. is reminding more and more of junior high-school, except less adult and a lot more deadly.

@Fat Freddy - simple questions for you. A 100 year old man can live an extra year if he gets a heart transplant at the cost of $100,000. Should the government spend your money to keep him alive for an extra year?

According your to rational, he has the right to life at whatever cost and at whatever age.

@KDelphi - your insults will get you nowhere.

You apparently think that “Free Health Care” does not come at a price.

You probably think that Government acts in your best interest.

Do you think that everyone has the right to food? Well then, let’s nationalize all the farms and distribute the food accordingly. Does everyone have the right to shelter? Shall we nationalized all homes and have the government assign a room to each citizen?

Perhaps you should move to a more socialist country and have all your needs met.

For those that want to live in the land of the free and the home of the brave we will stand and fight to keep the government out of our lives.

On your point to compassion, the costs will actually rise with a government run plan and the poor will be hurt the most because they will be taxed indirectly through inflation or directly through withholdings.

I do not understand Amy Goodman standing up for this travesty of a plan (HR 3200)

I was so grateful, when she had on Wendell Potter , the head of RAM (Remote Aread Medical, who, unfortuantely, has turned out to be a right wing asshole), and actually asked Rep Waxman some REAL questions about single payer and how it will be the next civil rights issue, with 50 dying a day…why are you backing off of it , Amy? Please dont do this!

BlueEagle—you are morally bankrupt. If the Good Dr Paul thinks we should only treat those who can afford it, he should have his license jerked for breaking the Hippocratic Oath! The Paultards made asses of themselves at the Town Halls—-I cant believe that you guys are the ones I’ve been bothering to argue with!! Some of you may be bright, but you have no heart and you’ll never get laid…

As he says, we need to get the government out of the health care system, so that free market forces can drive costs down.

The only way to get government out of health care, is to eliminate Medicare. There’s no free market force that will allow a private insurance company to provide health insurance to the elderly at any price. So, ultimately they will be denied care under a free market system.

Health care is a privilege, NOT a right.

Just because it is not specifically mentioned in the Constitution, doesn’t mean it isn’t a basic human right. Just ask TJ and BF. Or for that matter, John Locke. Health care should not be limited to the privileged. Everyone deserves a healthy, productive life.

We already have one. His name is Ron Paul (aka The Good Doctor).

As he says, we need to get the government out of the health care system, so that free market forces can drive costs down.

Health care is a privilege, NOT a right.

Love ya, Amy. Keep up the good work! I watch you on MiND TV.

And here’s a link to Amy’s show, since somebody must have forgot to post it.

http://www.democracynow.org/

WE all have to be our own action heroes:women and men in the USA, if we want single-payer now.
I suggest folks read Bruce A. Dixon’s analyses of Obama’s health plan and David Swanson’s article on
Congress, as well as Dixon’s article on there’s time to fight for single-payer before Labor Day on
http://www.blackagendareport.com
and also David Swanson’s own good website:
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org

I appreciate Amy Goodman’s work, and have done for over a decade and a half.  I am involved in the
“undo the coup” movement for Pacifica and “my station”, WBAI.  See http://www.takebackwbai.org for short overview.  See http://www.wbaix.org WBAI-in-Exile for news production by “fired and banned” from WBAI, Don DeBar
and http://www.wbixradio.org for videos of protest about the coup, a site produced by Don DeBar also.  I listen to Amy Goodman and DemocracyNow on WBAI and have done since it’s first day.  (I have been a listener of Amy’s work going back to her work on “WakeUpCall” and news director at WBAI.)