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Nader Was Right: Liberals Are Going Nowhere With Obama

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Posted on Aug 10, 2009
Ralph Nader
AP / Carolyn Kaster

Ralph Nader waits for his turn to speak at a news conference during the run-up to the 2008 campaign.

By Chris Hedges

The American empire has not altered under Barack Obama. It kills as brutally and indiscriminately in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan as it did under George W. Bush. It steals from the U.S. treasury to enrich the corporate elite as rapaciously. It will not give us universal health care, abolish the Bush secrecy laws, end torture or “extraordinary rendition,” restore habeas corpus or halt the warrantless wiretapping and monitoring of citizens. It will not push through significant environmental reform, regulate Wall Street or end our relationship with private contractors that provide mercenary armies to fight our imperial wars and produce useless and costly weapons systems.

The sad reality is that all the well-meaning groups and individuals who challenge our permanent war economy and the doctrine of pre-emptive war, who care about sustainable energy, fight for civil liberties and want corporate malfeasance to end, were once again suckered by the Democratic Party. They were had. It is not a new story. The Democrats have been doing this to us since Bill Clinton. It is the same old merry-go-round, only with Obama branding. And if we have not learned by now that the system is broken, that as citizens we do not matter to our political elite, that we live in a corporate state where our welfare and our interests are irrelevant, we are in serious trouble. Our last hope is to step outside of the two-party system and build movements that defy the Democrats and the Republicans. If we fail to do this, we will continue to undergo a corporate coup d’etat in slow motion that will end in feudalism.

We owe Ralph Nader, Cynthia McKinney and the Green Party an apology. They were right. If a few million of us had had the temerity to stand behind our ideals rather than our illusions and the empty slogans peddled by the Obama campaign, we would have a platform. We forgot that social reform never comes from accommodating the power structure but from frightening it. The Liberty Party, which fought slavery, the suffragists who battled for women’s rights, the labor movement, and the civil rights movement knew that the question was not how do we get good people to rule—those attracted to power tend to be venal mediocrities—but how do we limit the damage the powerful do to us. These mass movements were the engines for social reform, the correctives to our democracy and the true protectors of the rights of citizens. We have surrendered this power. It is vital to reclaim it. Where is the foreclosure movement? Where is the robust universal health care or anti-war movement? Where is the militant movement for sustainable energy?

“Something is broken,” Nader said when I reached him at his family home in Connecticut. “We are not at the Bangladesh level in terms of passivity, but we are getting there. No one sees anything changing. There is no new political party to give people a choice. The progressive forces have no hammer. When they abandoned our campaign, they told the Democrats we have nowhere to go and will take whatever you give us. The Democrats are under no heat in the electoral arena from the left.

“There comes a point when the public imbibes the ultimatum of the plutocracy,” Nader said when asked about public apathy. “They have bought into the belief that if it protests, it will be brutalized by the police. If they have Muslim names, they will be subjected to Patriot Act treatment. This has scared the hell out of the underclass. They will be called terrorists.

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“This is the third television generation,” Nader said. “They have grown up watching screens. They have not gone to rallies. Those are history now. They hear their parents and grandparents talk about marches and rallies. They have little toys and gizmos that they hold in their hands. They have no idea of any public protest or activity. It is a tapestry of passivity.

“They have been broken,” Nader said of the working class. “How many times have their employers threatened them with going abroad? How many times have they threatened the workers with outsourcing? The polls on job insecurity are record-high by those who have employment. And the liberal intelligentsia have failed them. They [the intellectuals] have bought into carping and making lecture fees as the senior fellow at the institute of so-and-so. Look at the top 50 intelligentsia—not one of them supported our campaign, not one of them has urged for street action and marches.”

Our task is to build movements that can act as a counterweight to the corporate rape of America. We must opt out of the mainstream. We must articulate and stand behind a viable and uncompromising socialism, one that is firmly and unequivocally on the side of working men and women. We must give up the self-delusion that we can influence the power elite from the inside. We must become as militant as those who are seeking our enslavement. If we remain passive as we undergo the largest transference of wealth upward in American history, our open society will die. The working class is being plunged into desperation that will soon rival the misery endured by the working class in China and India. And the Democratic Party, including Obama, is a willing accomplice.


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By Ralph Kramden, December 19, 2009 at 6:34 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Great article. I’m a bore at gatherings when I respond to all the belly-aching about Bushy-Obama: “vote Nader.” We have to start a Labor Party. First, we get rid of Taft-Hartley and then the labor movement will bloom. Labor is the key.
All these fools who vote for Feinstein because she is a liberal. “Liberal,” in what way?
As Martin Luther King said:“The lesser of two evils is still an evil.” We can build a third party, just vote your conscience. The Democrats are Republicans in sheep clothing.

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By Geraldine Allen, November 8, 2009 at 9:59 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Chris Hedges is the first author I’ve found who confirms all my worst fears
about our government and broken political system.  I appreciate his books and
articles very much.  Often they tell me why and how and answer questions I’ve
been asking myself.  He reminds me that “we the people” are all that stands
between we the people and corrupt government.  No one I know is ready or
willing to do anything about our situation.  Maybe that is because admitting the
seriousness of our situation would be too depressing for most of us to bear.  It
certainly depresses me.  Another fear, in addition to the serious situation we’re
in politically and economically, another fear I wish were not being confirmed,
is that too many of our citizens simply do not know enough to understand the
seriousness of our situation.  I think letters and emails to our politicians could
be helpful, but here in Texas our politicians are like stone walls—on the right. 
Also how can we change the policies of enormous corporations?  Wasn’t it Chris
Hedges who said we have a “corporatocracy?  So if the 70% takes over the
Democratic party, some of the 70% will be paid off and . . .  ?

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By ardee, September 10, 2009 at 5:36 pm Link to this comment

and , if it by chance managed to do so it would be roundly defeated by both Democrats and Republicans. They are looking, not to advance our nation, but to continue to attach to the umbilical chord of corporate funding, and juicy lobbying positions as second careers.

Lets be accurate, cann4ing and read my entire comment please.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, September 9, 2009 at 9:23 am Link to this comment

Thanks Canning4, a little ray of light shinning through the string pullers curtain, onto the ever pessimists rain storm. Though holding ones breath may be a bit optimistic, it doest feel good to embellish ones hope, even if just a tiny bit.

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By Liberal Democratic Party USA, September 9, 2009 at 9:22 am Link to this comment

Boycott Tyson Foods of Arkansas. Call lobbyist for
Tyson Foods Chuck Penry 202 393 3921 and tell him
politely that you refuse to buy Tyson chicken until
Mike Ross D-Arkansas the leader of the Blue Dogs on
health care gets the entire house and senate
conservative Democrats to help get HR 676 enacted
into law. Tell others to call. Send me email after
you call to .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)


Boycott American Express who gave Max Baucus $50,000
for his campaigns. Call Joanna Lambert at 212 640
9668 and politely tell her you will not use any
American Express cards until Max Baucus gets HR 676
enacted into law. Email me after you call.


http://democratz.org

http://BIT.LY/HR676

http://BIT.LY/single_payer_ross

http://BIT.LY/drug_benefit


When will progressives wake up and realize that they
buy products every day and they can use that power to
destroy the conservative power coalition in congress
with boycotts which you can use to demand and get
progressive legislation passed in congress and signed
by the President?

WHEN?

I have started a new political party
http://democratz.org

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By cann4ing, September 9, 2009 at 8:41 am Link to this comment

By ardee, September 9 at 6:38 am #

That bill you so proudly cite hasnt a chance of getting out of committee I wager…

_______________________

I’d suggest you stay away from Vegas, my friend.

As I reported in my Brad Blog piece, “Single-Payer: From Off-the-Table to On-the-Floor” Rep. Anthony Weiner secured an agreement to bring HR 676 to a full vote on the House floor.

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7337

Just yesterday I posted a request by Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) that everyone desirous of meaningful change sign his petition supporting HR 676.

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7401

I would encourage you and everyone else who considers him or herself a progressive to link to my piece and sign the petition.

Instead of bickering back and forth, progressives now have an opportunity to do something!

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, September 9, 2009 at 8:16 am Link to this comment

ardee,

I agree with cann4ing, the 70% Common Majority of the nation needs to use the add and remove program of the election process, the Primaries, to clean up the Democratic Party, and remove ALL the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Blue Dogs and New Democrats from the Democratic Party that are NOT representing the 70% majority common population.

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By ardee, September 9, 2009 at 3:38 am Link to this comment

cann4ing, September 8 at 9:17 am #

Sad little ideologue to cite examples of a scarce few amidst a body of hundreds upon hundreds on the national level alone, a few silenced and powerless at that.

That bill you so proudly cite hasnt a chance of getting out of committee I wager, and , if it by chance managed to do so it would be roundly defeated by both Democrats and Republicans. They are looking, not to advance our nation, but to continue to attach to the umbilical chord of corporate funding, and juicy lobbying positions as second careers.

Your argument is as weak as your analytical skills….

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By Leefeller, September 8, 2009 at 7:19 am Link to this comment

Greenferrt your ideas seem noble and worthy suggestions for moving or forming a true Democracy, only thing wrong is, we live in a Republic controlled by special interests. These days one does not even know if these interests care about our national interests, never the less their disconnect of the people which seems a given they do not care. 

If most or a large majority of people supported your ideas, the true plutocracy would look at them an say “so” as Chaney did about the war in Iraq.

In the end manipulators and power mongers pull the strings.

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By cann4ing, September 8, 2009 at 6:17 am Link to this comment

By ardee, September 8 at 6:23 am #

Those who vote for Democratic Party candidates are, in reality, voting for the status quo.
____________________

Another meaningless generalization that has no connection to reality.

Consider, for example, the difference between Kucinich, Weiner and the other members of the progressive caucus who support HR 676 Single Payer health care (Medicare for All) and Max Baucus, the highest recipient of health insurance lobby funding, who made sure single-payer advocates did not have a seat at the table during Senate Finance Committee hearings; ordered single-payer advocates arrested when they did show up.

Only someone operating behind a thick ideological lens is incapable of seeing the fundamental distinction between true progressive democrats like Kucinich and Weiner vs. corporate sell-outs like Max Baucus.

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By ardee, September 8, 2009 at 3:23 am Link to this comment

MarthaA, September 7 at 3:47 pm #

ardee,

I hope President Obama reads the internet or watched Moyers on PBS.  It does appear the DLC is trying to lead President Obama, and Harold Ford was pretty smug in his thinking that the DLC Nearly Nobles has President Obama controlled, but President Obama may just fool them all; but you may be right, only time will tell.

Why do you insist that Obama is being led, especially when you consider two important decisions of his;

1. He is elected to LEAD not to follow

2. He was not forced to appoint Rhamm Emmanuel as his chief of staff yet he did that. Emmanuel is a DLC stalwart, a reactionary democrat if ever there was one, and, sadly, prototypical of today’s Democrat.

But you’re incorrect in saying we have a democratic Congress, because our Congress isn’t liberal, we don’t really have a democratic Congress unless there are ALL liberals on the Left; now there are too many who vote with the Republican Extremists, as if they have no idea what liberal is, and each and every one that is other than liberal, MUST be voted out.  Anyone on the Left voting with the Republican Extremists can not be representing the liberal political Left, which is the 70% Majority Common Population.

Never going top happen. Those who vote for Democratic Party candidates are, in reality, voting for the status quo, whether they agree or not. The fact is that both both parties represent the right, the corporate power that runs this nation and no amount of effort by you or anyone will change that fact.

You think to produce candidates running on the Democratic ticket that are liberal or sympathetic to the wishes of the electorate, yet all State and National candidates are chosen by a select few at the top, and not by the people, that is the fact of the matter and that is the reasson that solutions must be sought outside of the two party system

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By Dave Schwab, September 7, 2009 at 11:48 pm Link to this comment

“I just don’t know how we can do much of anything unless all the other groups who are disaffected and join together to do it nationally and to work toward common goals. We all must have some things in common among all of us don’t we?”

What we need to do - independents, Greens, Libertarians, Constitutionalists, all the other parties and everyone who wants to bring democracy to America - is unite to fix our broken election system. If the process is broken, the results are never going to be pretty.

Instant runoff voting for single winner elections.
Proportional representation for legislative elections.
Clean elections public campaign financing laws.
Abolish the electoral college and move to a national popular vote.
Abolish restrictive, discriminatory ballot access laws.
Mandate open debates and institute free public airtime for debates between all ballot-qualified candidates.

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By cann4ing, September 7, 2009 at 2:06 pm Link to this comment

By ardee, September 7 at 1:07 pm #

cann4ing, September 7 at 10:42 am #

Still waiting, Ardee, for a word, just one “word,” from you that would move the progressive cause from point “A” to point “B.”

No what you are actually doing is demonstrating what a prick you are.
_______________________

Real mature, meaningful response, Ardee.  Precisely what I would expect from some one with nothing meaningful to contribute.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, September 7, 2009 at 12:47 pm Link to this comment

ardee,

I hope President Obama reads the internet or watched Moyers on PBS.  It does appear the DLC is trying to lead President Obama, and Harold Ford was pretty smug in his thinking that the DLC Nearly Nobles has President Obama controlled, but President Obama may just fool them all; but you may be right, only time will tell.

But you’re incorrect in saying we have a democratic Congress, because our Congress isn’t liberal, we don’t really have a democratic Congress unless there are ALL liberals on the Left; now there are too many who vote with the Republican Extremists, as if they have no idea what liberal is, and each and every one that is other than liberal, MUST be voted out.  Anyone on the Left voting with the Republican Extremists can not be representing the liberal political Left, which is the 70% Majority Common Population.

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By Night-Gaunt, September 7, 2009 at 12:11 pm Link to this comment

I am sorry to see that you are still fooled by Obama and his gloss of false liberalism. He was just poison in a better package than McCaine was, that is all.

A deliberate means of keeping the present inverted totalitarian state in operation. It looks like a republic but it operates poorly and still seems to get what it wants done. We could move to an overt one very quickly.

His actions do speak louder than his words and showing him to be a liar. One who is quite competent, just not for us but for the fascists who are gutting our republic and he is a willing agent. He is not only carrying on all that was done before but is doing his own part for them. Not for us or the Constitution/Bill of Rights. When will the veil be lifted for you? How many things must he do to remove the glamor (false appearance) from him for you? In a fixed system either choice offered are bad, just one isn’t as obvious as the other, see Bill Clinton for the other example.

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By ardee, September 7, 2009 at 10:18 am Link to this comment

MarthaA, September 7 at 10:59 am #

ardee,

I would NEVER say such a thing as you have said about the President of the United States.  Obama will win you over when health care goes into effect.

Health care will remain a for profit boondoggle under Obama if for no other reason than that he is an incompetent leader whose party depends upon those checks from the Insurance and Pharmaceutical Industries. Once the public option was bargained away the cause was lost. Once big Pharma cut its deal to ensure no competitive bidding allowed for Medicare the cause was lost.

Once Obama appointed that cadre of right wing sophists (do you like that?) to his cabinet the cause was lost. Once Obama expanded the stupid War on Terror ( War for Profit) the cause was lost. We , many of us on the left, warned that Obama was a silver tongued deceiver without enough experience to run a lemonade stand much less a country, and he has proven that harsh assessment to be accurate, sad to say.

You claim Obama needs more time, and you’ve got three plus years of it, but I think you aren’t going to enjoy much of it. If you can watch the actions of our Democratic majority Congress and not get sick to your stomach, perhaps you are missing something?

As to the Moyers citing I already read it , as well as watched his great bit on Maher’s show. Moyers is INDICTING Obama not praising him, Martha!

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By ardee, September 7, 2009 at 10:07 am Link to this comment

cann4ing, September 7 at 10:42 am #

Still waiting, Ardee, for a word, just one “word,” from you that would move the progressive cause from point “A” to point “B.”

No what you are actually doing is demonstrating what a prick you are.

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By Leefeller, September 7, 2009 at 8:39 am Link to this comment

My few shreds of intellect or rather, small morsels of common sense, were excited when MIke Gavel took the stage at the first Democratic alleged debate and head lighted all the other Democratic candidates with reality, it was a site to behold, finally a politician who attacked one of the plutocracies sacrament cows, in this case the Military Complex. 

My small ability of sense sees both parties as contrived to complement each other, for constant division is important in the grand scheme of things, keep the kids bickering, so real problems, issues and concerns never get any traction. Most here know this to be, some prefer not to admit it.

As in Monty Pythons Holy Grail, the King is the supreme imbecile except in our case we have the string pulling Plutocracy on their holy quest and the people are to be used as needed otherwise really do not matter. 

It seems now as in the past, power and money are pulling the strings and one can be quite sure what trickles down is all one may expect.

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By MarthaA, September 7, 2009 at 7:59 am Link to this comment

ardee,

I would NEVER say such a thing as you have said about the President of the United States.  Obama will win you over when health care goes into effect.  President Obama has not had time to turn the nation around with all the problems of the previous eight long years; you are, as are Right-Wing sophists and propagandists, expecting way too much of one man who has been swamped with DLC Republican’s Lite.  It does take some time to get oriented into a new situation and combing through the eight years of legislative destruction the Conservative EXTREMISTS manipulated in itself takes time, especially with the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST’S Media bawling, squalling and whining constantly. I really wish liberals would be as exuberant in their push to make a better country for all as the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMISTS are in their push to destroy our country for all.

This post by Bill Moyers says what the country needs:

http://www.alternet.org/story/142461/bill_moyers:_mr._president,_we
_need_a_fighter_to_take_on_the_deranged_right-wing

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By cann4ing, September 7, 2009 at 7:42 am Link to this comment

Still waiting, Ardee, for a word, just one “word,” from you that would move the progressive cause from point “A” to point “B.”

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By ardee, September 7, 2009 at 5:44 am Link to this comment

By MarthaA, September 6 at 6:59 pm #

ardee,

When all the choices are Red, there will be no vote. That would be an Autocratic Conservative Extremist Republican Dictatorship, which is what the Conservative Extremists want, but I think if the liberal people will use the Democratic Party like it is suppose to be used, for the liberals, that the people of the Common Majority can vote out all the Blue Dogs and New Democrats in the Primaries, but it will take time.  A democratic movement takes time, but the first thing we have to learn is that there is little anymore on television politically that is in the best interest of the people of the 70% Common Majority.

Yeah, and…..? Voting for candidates presumes that there actually are such for whom one is compelled to cast that vote. Within the two major parties there are damn few of those. Further, and yet again, the candidates are not chosen by the people, they are chosen by the rulers of the two parties in question. Little ‘d’ democrats have no choice, not really, in whom they can vote for Congress or the Senate, or even higher State offices too. This working within that party is, to me, futile. Perhaps you choose to do so, well then have at it. But there are many paths to Bhudda, as they say, and I choose another such.

I was repulsed today when Meet The Press marched their Harold Ford, DLC leader of the Nearly Nobles, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Ford,_Jr. out to play like he was speaking for President Obama, because Harold Ford in no way speaks for President Obama and Harold Ford is part of the original problem, not the solution.

I am fairly repulsed whenever Obama speaks as well…....


There, ardee, are you happy, now you can answer—all the caps are gone.

And so I did…..

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By ardee, September 7, 2009 at 5:36 am Link to this comment

cann4ing, September 6 at 11:08 pm

My goodness, do you have a political guide dog to help you around your blindness?

You have the gall, or the childishness, to accuse me of “us vs. them” while ranting stupidly about the lack of utility in other solutions outside of Democratic Party politics.

I had hoped you weren’t just another fool, but you are exactly that.

C’mon Leefeller you know full well that Nader ran, not to win, but to expose the electorate to a different platform and a better direction. Further, Ill bet, you unlike that loyalist running dog,cann4ing, seemingly have some shreds of intellect.

It is pompously easy to remain outside of the Democratic Party and insist the correct path is to change that Party for the better. But that organization is a top down ,rigidly controlled entity, one that has stifled the voices of the Progressive Caucus and the Black Caucus as well.

I do understand that there is much needs doing in this nation of ours, and those who choose to work within the Democratic Party are welcomed, even urged to do so, especially cann4ing , if it only gets him the fuck out of here! But it is unworthy of true progressives to demean the strategies those who choose other paths to rescue our nation.

When I read such as the work of that rascal who descends quickly into the arena of insult, a place I am more than equal to compete within, all i can assuem is thathe is not working for change, only working to deny that change from happening, a one that Martha would quickly capitalize and insult.

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By Leefeller, September 6, 2009 at 8:41 pm Link to this comment

Be clear, I have little respect for either party, and a third party is a most presumptuous pipe-dream.  Alice in Wonderland makes more sense.  What a lame duck Nader would have been if he had won.  Anyone who believes he could have instituted one of his options is living in never never land (another story).  The whole system seems against any non selected token person, even hope is not an option just a word. 

Something that may be useful would be if the far left and the far right fought it out and made room for the majority. Logic and reason has no room in the minds of fanatics.  Blindness is so useful over riding truth and reality.

The plutocracy calls the shots so do not get to uppity, do your duty and go to war for them, remember it is not about the people, never has been. As George Carlin stated, “they do what they want, so why vote”. RIP

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By cann4ing, September 6, 2009 at 8:08 pm Link to this comment

By ardee, September 5 at 8:42 am #

This response is against my better judgment…...

MarthaA, September 4 at 11:50 pm #

Voting for Nader, or McKinney, or Barr, or Paul, or any of the non mainstream candidates for the Presidency is not done with the object of winning…

____________________

Precisely, and therein lies the rub.  Third party politics is a strategy that can “never” win.  It is designed as a futile protest, a meaningless “statement” that has not advanced the progressive cause one inch in the past century.

But don’t bother trying to argue with Ardee, MarthaA, his are rather thick ideological blinders.  Ardee is the reverse side of the George Bush “with us or against us” coin. 

The idea that the Democratic Party is not a monolith; that there is a vast gap between the corporate controlled “Democratic leadership” and the rank and file Democratic progressives they have portrayed—a rank and file who want no part of the corporate security state—simply cannot get past Ardee’s ideological blinders.

When I suggested that all progressives, including Nader and McKinney, should form a united front to seize control of the Democratic Party, Ardee distorted that, suggesting I was merely trying to “reform” a corrupt Democratic Party.  The subtlety of a progressive strategy that targets first the Democratic Party in which true progressives “replace” the corporate stooges is simply too difficult a concept for Ardee’s rather simplistic mind to comprehend.

Ardee is stuck in the impotence of a third party strategy that doesn’t have a prayer of success—and there he will remain.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, September 6, 2009 at 7:28 pm Link to this comment

OK, then ardee, here’s a repost:

By MarthaA, September 6 at 6:59 pm #

ardee,

When all the choices are Red, there will be no vote. That would be an Autocratic Conservative Extremist Republican Dictatorship, which is what the Conservative Extremists want, but I think if the liberal people will use the Democratic Party like it is suppose to be used, for the liberals, that the people of the Common Majority can vote out all the Blue Dogs and New Democrats in the Primaries, but it will take time.  A democratic movement takes time, but the first thing we have to learn is that there is little anymore on television politically that is in the best interest of the people of the 70% Common Majority.

I was repulsed today when Meet The Press marched their Harold Ford, DLC leader of the Nearly Nobles, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Ford,_Jr. out to play like he was speaking for President Obama, because Harold Ford in no way speaks for President Obama and Harold Ford is part of the original problem, not the solution.

Ford isn’t going to represent the 70% Majority Common Population that he deserted, so what he has to say means nothing to the 70% Majority Common Population.  In fact, Meet The Press with Smiley Gregory has become a repulsive show that panders to Right-Wing Conservative Extremists.

It is really sickening that the media is owned by Right-Wing Conservative Extremists, though the Right-Wing Extremists tried to get rid of him, we do have something to be thankful for, and that is PBS Bill Moyers, and Bill Moyers Journal http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09042009/profile.html that is still a blessing to the nation as a whole.

There, ardee, are you happy, now you can answer—all the caps are gone.

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By ardee, September 6, 2009 at 4:51 pm Link to this comment

I do not , nor ever will, respond to capitalized posts that resemble childishness by thinking shouting changes fact.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, September 6, 2009 at 3:59 pm Link to this comment

ardee,

When all the choices are RED, there will be no vote. That would be an AUTOCRATIC CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN DICTATORSHIP, which is what the CONSERVATIVE EXTREMISTS want, but I think if the liberal people will use the Democratic Party like it is suppose to be used, for the liberals, that the people of the common majority can vote out all the Blue Dogs and New Democrats in the Primaries, but it will take time.  A democratic movement takes time, but the first thing we have to learn is that there is little anymore on television politically that is in the best interest of the people of the common majority.

I was repulsed today when Meet The Press marched their Harold Ford, DLC leader of the Nearly Nobles, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Ford,_Jr. out to play like he was speaking for President Obama, because Harold Ford in no way speaks for President Obama and is part of the original problem, not the solution.

Ford isn’t going to represent the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION that he deserted, so what he has to say means nothing to the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION.  In fact, Meet The Press with Smiley Gregory is a repulsive show that panders to Right-Wing CONSERVATIVE EXTREMISTS.

It is really sickening that the media is owned by RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMISTS, though the Right-Wing EXTREMISTS tried to get rid of him, we do have something to be thankful for, and that is PBS Bill Moyers, and Bill Moyers Journal http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09042009/profile.html that is still a blessing to the nation as a whole.

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By Leefeller, September 6, 2009 at 7:08 am Link to this comment

Those who gain power, have formed alliances within themselves and seems normal in perspective, has anyone heard of the family?

All I can say is the people are more screwed then they can imagine. If people in high places believe themselves to be chosen ones, where does that leave people who do not agree?

Seems something stinks in Washington DC.

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By ardee, September 6, 2009 at 5:10 am Link to this comment

In no way do I see voting for a political party that hasn’t got the kahunas to have leadership in Congress as a viable option

A perfect way to maintain the status quo.

My shtick is to persevere in voting the Red rascals out of the Blue.

One cannot help but wonder for whom you will vote when all the choices are Red?

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By elisalouisa, September 5, 2009 at 8:03 pm Link to this comment

Trust me when I tell you I am not comfortable and complacent. I will have to
rethink your post(s)Night-Gaunt. Your last post lent more understanding to the
term “religious fanatic”. We are not far apart on that one.

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By MarthaA, September 5, 2009 at 7:45 pm Link to this comment

ardee,

If that’s your shtick, then so be it, but it is not mine.  In no way do I see voting for a political party that hasn’t got the kahunas to have leadership in Congress as a viable option. My shtick is to persevere in voting the Red rascals out of the Blue.

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By Night-Gaunt, September 5, 2009 at 7:39 pm Link to this comment

Why do you say that one isn’t in the other? Just because these owners of money and power may not profess their religion to us. And even if they aren’t that religious they like the kind of gov’t the fanatics, the ones that are in control of themselves, want the same thing. It is part of their religion to be wealthy and to control every thing. So don’t be so comfortable and complacent Elisalouisa when you don’t know what kind of psychology these people have within their theology. It fits their “twice blessed” status. Indeed they claim it is their divine right to be in the position they are in and have been chosen to rule over us. Literally chosen and blessed by their God of wealth and power shining the light of Heaven upon their heads. And to be able to use force to get his will done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

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By ardee, September 5, 2009 at 4:55 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, September 5 at 2:58 pm

What have we got besides time? Oh , and numbers….

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By elisalouisa, September 5, 2009 at 4:43 pm Link to this comment

Have no fear Night-Gaunt, religious groups do not control the system. Wall Street Money controls the system and religious groups are playing into their hands. For one thing, they are friends of the Zionist movement for reasons of their own. Also, they bring in the votes. Those are two big items. For that they are thrown a bone or two in the way of family values, etc. When the day comes that these religious groups are no longer needed they are in for a rude awakening.

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By MarthaA, September 5, 2009 at 3:54 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt,

Objective statements are NOT sophistry.

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By Night-Gaunt, September 5, 2009 at 11:58 am Link to this comment

I wish we had time for gradualism Ardee but the opposition, the religious fanatics have already taken over the two allowed primary parties and control the system. I just don’t know how we can do much of anything unless all the other groups who are disaffected and join together to do it nationally and to work toward common goals. We all must have some things in common among all of us don’t we?

As for that lost cause, MarthaA she will just pull her objective/subjective sophistry to not answer any legitimate questions. I suspect that if she follows that tact for real in everything else her reading lists will be very short. I can do no more on that front. When you get no response you eventually move on. Just hope I don’t succumb to trying again.

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By ardee, September 5, 2009 at 5:42 am Link to this comment

This response is against my better judgment…...

MarthaA, September 4 at 11:50 pm #

Voting for Nader, or McKinney, or Barr, or Paul, or any of the non mainstream candidates for the Presidency is not done with the object of winning that office but to signal that there are significant portions of the electorate unsatisfied with the platforms and policies of the two party system and their front men and women.

This should be an elementary fact to anyone immersed in the political , as we are all supposed to be…. Voting for the same folks is a guarantee of the same path. As the candidates chosen by the Parties and not by the People are unsatisfactory, as their platforms are not their directions when elected, and as we the people have little to no say in who runs for the higher offices a vote for third party candidates is a form of protest.

If more of us would take this course we would see a gradual shifting of the party positions on issues important to the progressive voter, we would see, perhaps, a restoration of the voice of the progressive in Democratic Party politics. Or we might even see an increasing number of Greens elected to the Legislature, not at all a bad thing.

sidebar for Martha
I have responded to a legitimate question with a legitimate and polite enumeration of my position on this matter. Should you revert to type and use your typical capitalized bullshit , attacking my politics as lies or attempt to show that I am an agent of the devil or whoever, as you are so prone to do, you will accomplish only two things I fear.

Thing 1. You will further damage an already abysmal reputation here, and

Thing 2. You will be returned to the ignore file

Your choice

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By MarthaA, September 4, 2009 at 8:50 pm Link to this comment

ardee,

There is no change if Nader got elected president.  Who would be the Congress? The Right would run him down as much or more than President Obama and he wouldn’t even have a party in Congress that he could rely upon.  He would have to work with the Democratic Party, being that it is the Liberal side, but he won’t be a Democrat. Why doesn’t Nader join the Democratic Party and run for President through the Democratic Party?

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By ardee, September 4, 2009 at 6:44 pm Link to this comment

daniel celli, September 4 at 1:00 am #

I’m very sorry, but, Mr. Nader it is right.

Dont be sorry, be vocal. Nader is, on every major point , economic, domestic, foreign policy even, rational , sane and logical. Also correct. I vote for him proudly as the single best candidate available. It bothers me not at all that he cannot win, nor, if he did, could he form a coalition among the Duopoly party to push legislation. But he is still in the right, and thus earns my vote.

Maybe when enough of the electorate decides to vote the same way, for that candidate who best expresses their own views, we might achieve progress. As long as the two parties understand that roughly 40% will vote GOP and 40% will vote Democratic they care not for change.

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By MarthaA, September 4, 2009 at 1:10 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt,

I have looked down through the whole thread trying to find an objective question that you have asked, but all I have found is subjective blather.

If you have an objective question to ask that is not couched in sophism and propaganda, ask your question and to the best of my ability, I will try to answer your question, but there is no answer for subjective drivel.

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By Night-Gaunt, September 4, 2009 at 12:35 pm Link to this comment

Just say you won’t answer the questions I put to you to illuminate me as to how you think on certain matters. It is as objective or subjective as you make it. I answer yours readily enough. We are after all strangers and well hidden aren’t we?

Till the pseudo-duopoly we have is broken open no one else will have a chance to get elected and change the trajectory of this country. Now Glenn Beck has stated he likes where we are going even as he rails against the way we are going. He just is confused because Obama is in the pilot seat but the plane is still on the same course! Such is his confusion between what he says he believes and what he does believe. The exotruth vs the endotruth. Which fits? He does slip from time to time in his lessons. Painting Obama as a “Marxist” (whatever that is) when he has been following the corporate, theocratic, military imperial line unbroken since Reagan who he professes to like.

The Middle Class, thanks to FDR & Truman came into existence in 1945, reached its peak in 1980 and has been declining ever since. Our general wages have been declining since 1970. There is a plan that is being used to wreck the New Deal et al and bring us down so low that we won’t trust our way of governing anymore. When that happens is the Cabal will make their appearance and show us their version of a “More Perfect Union” as they see fit. We don’t want that do we? I don’t.

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By MarthaA, September 4, 2009 at 11:26 am Link to this comment

NightGaunt,

I do not think Ralph Nader would make a bad president, because RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN GOVERNANCE is unsafe at any speed.

You have made subjective assertions, if you can be objectively specific then perhaps I can answer your objectively specific question. I will answer any objective questions to the best of my ability.

Get Ralph Nader on the institutionalized Democratic Party ticket and I will gladly vote for him, otherwise all Ralph Nader does is split the ticket because the Democrats will agree with the Republicans and Ralph Nader will not even get the chance to represent himself on the airwaves, because there are only two institutionalized political parties.

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By Night-Gaunt, September 4, 2009 at 10:47 am Link to this comment

Oh now you just insult me and give Ozark Michael an ego boost he surely doesn’t need! As to answering any of my questions? Nugatory on your part MarthaA, I will continue to hold out olive branches for a while until I tire of you biting it off and claiming I’m one of the enemy. I can’t wait for you to cut-and-paste some of those things I said that you find so bad. The vile bile will eat you from within, consume you eventually or worse. What some do is to fixate on a group and use violence to remove them from their sight and then “all things will be better.”  Hitler, Stalin, Mao and many others before them and since them do it too.

Ralph Nader was right and he should have been one of our presidents. At least domestically he would have helped more than hurt. What say you MarthaA?

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By MarthaA, September 4, 2009 at 9:42 am Link to this comment

Is NightGaunt and OzarkMichael one and the same, as it appears?  Is OzarkMichael answering his own subjective accusatory assertions taken out of context with NightGaunt?  Double sophist subjective accusatory assertions for the price of one, makes fulfilling your RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN sophist mandate much easier, does it OzarkMichael?.

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By Sandu, September 3, 2009 at 10:25 pm Link to this comment

It has taken some time to read through most of these
posts and I have to say that there is one clear theme
throughout: indoctrination. It is amazing to see how
many people confuse their beliefs as fact or logic or
reason. Chris Hedges new book title “Empire of
Illusion” really does say it all.  You sit online and
argue against one another instead of standing up to
your governement and its war mongering!!!  You
supersize everything from your happy meals to your
flat screen tv’s while there are children who starve
to death!!!  I am sorry but regardless of the party
in control the US is really F*^ked up and it starts
with its citizens.  Here is a simple idea, if you
want corporations to stop having so much power, stop
buying their F*%king products!!! If YOU want change
YOU have to facilitate it, and not through the
political process either because that is broken and
useless.  Any political process that allows lobbyists
and campaign contributions is not a democratic one
for sure.  I left the US when George Bush was re-
elected because I believe that everyone is reponsible
for their government and I could not be responsible
for another 4 years of murder, greed, and stupidity. 
I find it very sad that so many people don’t have the
intelligence and reason to look past their own
indoctrinated beliefs for the greater good of the
overall society.  Americans have to have the courage
to give up some of thier conforts if they want chang
and progress.  Unfortunately with the majority of the
current American population, the only way the would
choose progress and change was if they could order it
with their credit cards!!!

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By daniel celli, September 3, 2009 at 10:00 pm Link to this comment

I’m very sorry, but, Mr. Nader it is right.

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By elisalouisa, August 24, 2009 at 12:25 pm Link to this comment

There certainly is to authoritarism.  Freud, in FUTURE OF AN ILLUSION, argues
that the long childhood of humans relative to other species, when the infant is
entirely dependant on the power of his parents for survival, helps determine
the identificacation with Divine and earthly power.  The more childish of us
want someone to protect us in adulthood the way our parents did in
childhood.
***************************************************************
There is also the possiblity that some of us need more protection for we are
more vulnerable. Perhaps this has been the case from our birth. Other babies
are more independent from birth. Some, it seems, are also born with an
advanced spiritual receptacle. Personally, upon reading Jung a few years back, I
felt like many of my questions had been answered. I have no reference but I
believe he stated that whole nations could be mentally ill. He commented that
the spirit of the German god Thor could have swept Germany in the late 30s
and early 40s when all that madness engulfed the nation. He also felt that we
take on the spirit of the land we reside in to some degree. Such comments might
sound rash and totally unbelievable but I cannot rule them out.

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By Folktruther, August 24, 2009 at 11:16 am Link to this comment

That’s an interesting point, Elisa.  There may be a biological aspect to racism.  There certainly is to authoritarism.  Freud, in FUTURE OF AN ILLUSION, argues that the long childhood of humans relative to other species, when the infant is entirely dependant on the power of his parents for survival, helps determine the identificacation with Divine and earthly power.  The more childish of us want someone to protect us in adulthood the way our parents did in childhood.

Lorens, the biologist who studied imprinting on young animals, demonstrated that certain patterns when first aquired persist in adult life.  It is conceiveable that a differnt pattern to humans might have some biological origin, although it certainly has been butressed by power structures and can certainly be overcome.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 24, 2009 at 8:35 am Link to this comment

Alas I believe I have outpaced poor MarthaA‘s limits. I am truly sorry for to have dialog is the only way we can communicate to come to a meaningful agreement.  Meanness and bullying are used by our opposition so it was odd to see MarthaA using it. Maybe she just didn’t notice. I hope now she might rethink what she has been doing in this area. Where there is life their is hope.

If we can’t get Obama to join the Light Side then we will continue to be lost in our own country for the time it still appears to be our country.

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By MarthaA, August 24, 2009 at 7:43 am Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt,

blah.

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By elisalouisa, August 23, 2009 at 8:49 pm Link to this comment

Nigh-Gaunt:You see a weakness and pounce like any predator and once you think
you have them by the neck you aren’t going to let go. You seem to take relish
with it which suggests a psychological need. I would have that looked at at the
soonest possible time.
************************************************************************
Almost an intervention Night-Gaunt and hopefully some good will come of it.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 23, 2009 at 8:34 pm Link to this comment

Again disappointed with your response MarthaA but you have a rigid speil and you stick to it. Even though your numbers are arbitrary and rather simplified, I gather for ease of consumption, but adequate for the first few times. Then it gets repetitive and therefor is just so much noise without further substance.

You see a weakness and pounce like any predator and once you think you have them by the neck you aren’t going to let go. Fine. But I just may start picking your little rout repeated by the numbers kinderspeil if you continue with this unnecessary and unproductive, for the rest of us, attacks without merit. You seem to take relish with it which suggests a psychological need. I would have that looked at at the soonest possible time. Like I said show the “sophistry” you claim, and how about without insults? Are you capable or would it upset your neat conveyor belt of prepackaged stuff and that ego?

Liberals and Progressives are finding crowded earth with Obama who has other weeds growing in his garden.

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By MarthaA, August 23, 2009 at 6:39 pm Link to this comment

cann4ing,

Your 8/23 5:47pm post is correct; AWARENESS in the masses is the answer.

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By MarthaA, August 23, 2009 at 6:29 pm Link to this comment

elisalouisa,

elisalouisa said:  “Where is the leader of 70% of the people you mention?”

MarthaA’s answer:  Leaders will emerge with awareness in the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION that ALL that are a part of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION are united as a class and culture.  Right now the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION have not reached sufficient awareness to warrant the emergence of leaders, but when awareness reaches a sufficient level, leaders will emerge.


elisalouisa said: “What does this 70% common population consist of?”

MarthaA’s answer:  ALL of the population of the United States that is not Noble or Nearly Noble—- all Commoners.


elisalouisa said:  “What unifies this 70% majority….”

MarthaA’s answer:  Class and Cultural status unifies all Commoners as a 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION Class and Culture.


elisalouisa said:  “Many have no bargaining chip….” 

MarthaA’s answer:  Class and Cultural status of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION is more than a bargaining chip, it is greater voting strength than the combined 30% minority voting strength of both the Nobles and the Nearly Nobles and can force political change irrespective of the political wishes of the Nobles and Nearly Nobles.

It’s a process, and like any process, it is a process that takes time.

The process that the EXTREME Right-Wingers followed to destroy the economy and bankrupt the United States took over forty (40) years.

The process to empower the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION as a Class and Culture will take equivalent dedication and time to enact as that spent by the Right-Wingers and to not do so is to defer to the process of the EXTREME Right-Wing Agenda.  If there is to be nominal equivalence between the Right and the Left, the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION as a Class and Culture must enact its own process to empower its own agenda and commit to the time that it takes the same way that the EXTREME Right-Wingers do.

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By MarthaA, August 23, 2009 at 6:09 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller,

It’s a process. (see elisalouisa’s post)

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By elisalouisa, August 23, 2009 at 5:43 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther:Therefore the first historical effort must be against this racism
fostored by the ruling class, not primarily against the ruling class itself.  We must
rid ourselves of the racism inculcated by the polities of our homelands, which
most Americans do not even know they possess.
*************************************************** 
The above comment in your informative post deserves more attention. True we
most likely possess biases we are not aware of for most cannot see themselves as they really are. However, some bias comes from the fact that we are fearful of
those who we do not identify with. The ruling class may foster some racism but
they also could be fostering something that is already there. Some racism
however, is surely fostered by the ruling class, such as against the Muslims.

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By MarthaA, August 23, 2009 at 3:53 pm Link to this comment

ardee,

Your post was not an answer to anything or anyone.  If that is the best you can do pray that that Midol takes hold, it may be your only hope.  I thought sure you would have 20 grandchildren by now.

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By ardee, August 23, 2009 at 3:26 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, August 23 at 3:16 pm #

I will pretend it wasnt my goading that provoked you to stand up to the execrable MarthaA. Her response to you should prove, yet again, my point about her sanity and non existing utility to any political discourse.

You will not, I am certain, allow her stupidities to provoke you into similar and well deserved retort, but it might just convince you that my opinion, and my responses, however poorly expressed, contains validity.

The woman attacks continually, many of her posts have nothing political within them, contain far too personal responses and simply show me that I am absolutely justified in treating her like the dirtbag she is…..

I will continue to point out her errors, and will probably be unable to refrain from responding to her inevitable stupid responses in kind. You can continue to take the high road or go back to ignoring her crap, I do not speak for you in this matter.

A New York upbringing both inures me from her ravings and provides ample ability to respond in kind. Thank goodness my grandkids are sane and normal. It makes me appreciate all the more my good fortune, four great kids parenting fifteen equally great grandkids.

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By MarthaA, August 23, 2009 at 3:11 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt,

So you are going to advocate for the sophist whiner.  The only reason you would advocate for a sophist whiner is because you are in support of ardee’s sophist position.  A sophist is a disingenuous ADVOCATOR and would be a disingenuous ARBITRATOR.  Whining from a sophist means what?—- NOTHING, but it is understandable you would take up for ardee, since both YOU and ardee favor Nader.  You have self-appointed yourself as arbitrator, which is unacceptable to me.

Night-Gaunt, I do not in any way accept you as my arbitrator against ardee’s whining, but I will say that just because I don’t whine for somebody to CARRY me, doesn’t mean ardee hasn’t or doesn’t call me egregious names, he has many, many times.  “Name calling” is one of his propaganda tools and ardee throws everything his wee mind has in it continually, and still whines for others to CARRY him.

ardee says he has 15 grandchildren so ardee ought to be able by now to handle what I, Shenonymous, Virginia or whoever has to say, and not let it bother him, if not, then he should get onto a social blog where whining is appreciated, or any kind of domestic society type blog where he can whine about his thoughts, feelings and beliefs; anything other than politics, as whining is a weakness in politics.

Politics is leadership of constituents in their best interest and non-constituents AGAINST their best interest, not whining because you don’t know what’s in your own best interest.  I am of the opinion ardee, you or anyone else should rise or fall on your own merit and that blaming others should not even be in the picture, as Left-Wing politics needs to UNITE the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION as a Class and Culture, and sophistry, whining and the BLAME GAME are enemies of unification.

ardee whines like a Right-Wing sophist that has “confidence without merit” and expects undeserved deference from the Left, which is tiresome.  I do not intend to give deference to ardee, he is a full grown man, giving him undeserved deference would not be beneficial to the democratic process, whatever he says to me will be returned in kind without fail.  ardee needs to become a mensch and quit being such a whiny little schlemiel. Might I suggest a good strong dose of Midol.

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By cann4ing, August 23, 2009 at 2:47 pm Link to this comment

By Folktruther, August 23 at 3:08 pm #

The comments of Elisa and especially cann4ing and Night-gaunt present the usual Ameircan misunderestandings of classical marxism….

There is now developing very rapidly historically an world ruling class out of the national ruling classes…

It is world socialism that is on the historical agenda, not Western or American socialism….
_____________________

Blah, blah, blah.  More ideological clap-trap.

An international capitalism is not “developing.”  It’s been with us for more than 60 years, though it has found the core, nation-based component for maintaining the corporate world order in the military might of the U.S., in paid assassins and economic hit men. (Try reading John Perkins, “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man.”)

As Jeff Faux so aptly noted in “The Global Class War”

“Globalization did not cause America’s growing inequalities.  Rather it allowed the rich and powerful to detach themselves from the bond that had connected the economic fate of Americans of all classes since World War II.  Ronald Reagan’s breaking the air traffic controllers’ union in 1981 signaled big business that it could violate the domestic social contract.  Clinton’s passage of NAFTA in 1993 signaled that big business could abandon it altogether.”

NAFTA, CAFTA & the WTO are the legal mechanism through which the “New World Order” of the international ruling class is maintained.

Marx’s “Workers of the world, unite!” is a fool’s errand.  Ain’t gonna happen, buddy.  All politics are local.  Globalization has permitted the elites to get workers to compete with one another to survive—a race to the bottom.

The answer lies not in some blind faith in historical inevitability but in socialism—the truest form of democracy—- sought at the local, state and national level.  Power is never voluntarily conceded.  Meaningful change comes only when sufficient numbers understand the true inequity in the current arrangement and work in unison to change it.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 23, 2009 at 12:16 pm Link to this comment

“To
ardee,

Do not be an incessant interminable whiner following blindly in the dark whining like a child who has no idea what truth is when you see it.”-MarthaA

By acting like this you put yourself in that same “whining” hole. It is a poor one and hurts whatever valid arguments you may make. Less vituperation and more analysis of the subject, okay? Can you do that? Can any of you attackers on this forum maintain adult composure? It would help things immensely & cut down on the personal attacks which are nothing good or useful.


“Keep plunking on your one note, little ardee one note. You’re so speeeeechial.” MarthaA

Careful about pointing fingers in a room of mirrors. It reflects on you. Truly disappointing, you just end up sounding like the kind of people you supposedly rail against. Tsk, tsk.

“Keep plunking on your one note, little MarthaA one note. You’re so speeeeechial.”

How does that fit? It is only your words directed back at you. Hateful aren’t they?

Remember you are very repetitious to the point of I just mostly ignore what you say. So much time wasted because of all of this childish egotistical ranting that signifies NOTHING.

As I said before, I am not sure we could apply anything significant to touch the Citadel Presidency. Recall how our protestations did nothing to deter them from invading Iraq in 1990, the first time and again in 2006

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By Folktruther, August 23, 2009 at 12:08 pm Link to this comment

The comments of Elisa and especially cann4ing and Night-gaunt present the usual Ameircan misunderestandings of classical marxism.  It was based on a WESTERN socialism, that a number of European states would undergo revolution and form a socialist block.  The vast majority of the world being too underdeveloped to undergo socialism.  It was never anarchism, marx and engels arguing against Bakunin etc; mrxism was always political and involved in its premlinary form the state.

This changed under marxist-leninism.  The Russian working class, led by the Bolshiveks, did overthrow the incipient capitalist state, which however was in a predominently peasant country.  And the attempt to extend it to Germany failed.  It consequently degenerated into ‘socialism in one country’ under stalin, spurred by the attatk of 16 capitalist countires that caused enormous destruction and resulted in the deaths of millions of people.  During the Cold War this capitalist war on socialism was simply eleminated from the American history books, like so many ‘secret’ wars.

Marxist-leninism led to Chinese communism, very different than the process envisioned by classical marixism.  Instead of leading to classical socialism, it led to a kind of centralizaed capitalism, much more effective than the neoliberal capitalism that marx criticized. 

This centralized capitialism is rapidly indusstrializing the world.  This is not generally realized in the US because the US power system is committed to neoliberal capitalism, which can’t compete economically with a capitalism where the state owns the banks and financial institutions and is oriented to economic growth.


There is now developing very rapidly historically an world ruling class out of the national ruling classes.  Some of them, like the American ruling class, couldn’t care less about their own countries and are simply concerned with making money in competition with the other members of the world ruling class.  They are, for the first time in history, centralizing world power, first under the westwrn institutions, like the UN,  and next, most likely, under east Asia where half of the world population lives.

It is world socialism that is on the historical agenda, not Western or American socialism.  For classical marxism to extend to the world, the world must be economically developed.  I am not suggesting we support world capitalism or Western imperialism, but that we unite with the people of other countries to opppose it.  To fight for a world socialism rather than a national socialism.

But this can’t be done historically without world institutions that allow this unity, and without a world ideology that unites it.  This ideology of world socialism will differ from both classical marxism and marxist-leninism in crucial ways.  Because they are both restricted by Western, and Elitist, values.  And these values are implicitly based on the homicidal racism of the White Man.

Therefore the first historical effort must be against this racism fostored by the ruling class, not primarily against the ruling class itself.  We must rid ourselves of the racism inculcated by the polities of our homelands, which most Americans do not even know they possess. 

This can be done by a revolution in social science similar conceptually to the scientific revolutions in the history of the natural sciences.  These kind of revolutions tend to be controversial, subverting the inherited misconceptions that the Educated classes impose on the popuulation to legitimate their power.  The transformation of our gestalt holistic patterns of reality in social science, as occurred in the history of the natural sciences, will transform over historical time the way we think about and percieve people.

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By MarthaA, August 23, 2009 at 11:30 am Link to this comment

ardee,

Keep plunking on your one note, little ardee one note. You’re so speeeeechial.

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By ardee, August 23, 2009 at 11:16 am Link to this comment

MarthaA, August 23 at 11:15 am #

ardee,

Do not be an incessant interminable whiner following blindly in the dark whining like a child who has no idea what truth is when you see it.


What I have previously posted on this thread is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God, and if you aren’t a SOPHIST, you are too blind to see, .....

****************************************

These two comments should in fact prove the worthlessness of this poster to the rest of this forum. What she spouts here is her own form of blindness and the naked refusal to believe her own opinion less than written large and in stone. Either one believes her OPINION or one is doomed to be cast down into the pit.

Heaven knows I will try harder to ignore her pitiful ravings and hope that she will grant me the same courtesy.

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By MarthaA, August 23, 2009 at 11:13 am Link to this comment

cann4ing,

Also, see my post to elisalouisa.

Nader is not the issue, Right-Wing Maneuvering For Another Sophist President is the issue.

Right-Wing CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN sophist scum lurking around in the media and on the internet are seeking to enable another sophist president, another Supply-Side Sophist Piper like Ronald Reagan, that can carry the banner of their swastika proud and high, like Ronald Reagan did, and make everyone believe that a swastika by any other name is as wholesome as apple pie; the American people must not allow a swastika by any other name to be the American flag.

http://www.alternet.org/politics/141860/inside_story_on_town_hall_riots:_right-wing_shock_troops_do_corporate_america’s_dirty_work/?comments=layout#comments

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By MarthaA, August 23, 2009 at 10:44 am Link to this comment

elisalouisa,

YOUR Frame is Wrong and so is YOUR assumption that “we have nothing to bargain with.”

The frame is not Capitalism in opposition to Socialism.

Capital is “an asset that produces a revenue stream” and ism is “the act, process or result of.”

Capitalism is the act, process or result of acquiring and using assets that produce a revenue stream to make additional capital.

There is nothing inherent in capital that requires private ownership; capital does the same thing, irregardless of whether capital is privately owned or owned communally by socialist enterprise.

The Nobles and the Nearly Nobles of the American Aristocracy and the Professional Middle Class comprise a 30% minority population of the United States and do not have the numbers on a National Scale to MAN the government, military, enforcement authority, and the business and industry that comprise the economy of the United States.

What the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION of the United States has as a UNITED Class and Culture to bargain with is the “withdrawal of labor” that they provide that makes all levels of the government, the military, and the business and industry of the U.S. Economy function, if the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION as a Class and Culture is not provided an equitable share in the benefit of all productive activity in which the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION as a Class and Culture provides MANPOWER to enable performance.

Capital can be used communally to enable the greater good, “social capitalism”, in the same way that “private capitalism” uses capital to enable the greater greed.

The 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION of the United States as a Class and Culture is the MANPOWER that runs the government and performs the day to day functions that makes the business and industry of the nation’s economy work and provides the MANPOWER for the military and enforcement authority; if the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION of the United States as a Class and Culture becomes aware, the simple act, in mass, of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION of the United States NOT GOING TO WORK will bring all aspects of the nation and the economy of the United States to a standstill, which means the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION have extraordinary bargaining power when they are united.

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By MarthaA, August 23, 2009 at 8:15 am Link to this comment

ardee,

Do not be an incessant interminable whiner following blindly in the dark whining like a child who has no idea what truth is when you see it.

I have told you I like Nader, but all Nader ever does as a 3rd Party is to help the Republican Party take complete control of what democracy we have left, which is relatively little and because he does it so often, I am wondering as to his ability to actually lead, even if he was in the Democratic Party, because he should see that there is no laws providing for a 3rd and EQUAL political party, since he apparently doesn’t, he would get run over by the Republican Party.

What I have previously posted on this thread is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God, and if you aren’t a SOPHIST, you are too blind to see, cooperation is the reason when the Right gets into power they run over the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION and neither party cares about what happens to the rest of the Left.  What I have posted is the reason the Nearly Nobles are not defending powerfully against the Right, as they should. It is all a deception, Nader would tell you that, if he was honest.

The only way for the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION to ever get representation will be through the Democratic Party, that of course doesn’t want Nader in it, because they know he more than likely would represent the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION, and they do not want to.

We can use the PRIMARY ELECTION SYSTEM to vote the CONSERVATIVES and MODERATES out of the Democratic Party.  All members of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION and any Nearly Nobles who prefer democracy, instead of autocracy, need to join the Democratic Party; being a singular Independent doesn’t profit you anything because you are unable to vote in the PRIMARY ELECTION PROCESS, to VOTE ALL CONSERVATIVES and MODERATES out of the Democratic Party.

If singular Independents could vote in the PRIMARY ELECTION PROCESS, it would be different, but they can’t; and no other party can vote in the PRIMARY ELECTION PROCESS of the Democratic Party either.  As a single individual there is NO WAY you can benefit the country, you need the support of the whole, which as a single Independent you have NONE; as a Green Party individual or any other political party individual will not have any support in the government of the United States.  Independent is NOT a Political Party, Independent is only a single position, “one”, no other support as there is NO Independent Party.  There is a Green Party and other parties, but none of them have any standing against the Democratic Party or the Republican Party institutionally legislated into law, therefore, they have to jump through hoops to get elected and if they do, as I have stated, they are only ONE Congressman by themself as leaders of their party’s voice is not allowed anywhere in Congress; ONLY the Democratic Party and the Republican Party, forcing the single party member to go along with either the Democratic Party agenda or the Republican Party.

People you are going to have to see the truth, and neither party is going to tell you the truth, because it is not in the best interest of their POWER and CONTROL over the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION, but never the less, it is TRUTH.

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By ardee, August 23, 2009 at 5:52 am Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, August 22 at 5:30 pm #

Why are you trying to pick a fight Ardee? I did include them an any others who use insult as part of their way of winning arguments. It applies to anyone who uses them for whatever reason. Not just you. It is up to you and anyone else to decide to use them or respond to others insults. Are you better than they are Ardee?  I was just pointing out how ineffective and pointless it is to the topic like this one. Do you remember the topic?

If you have condemned either Martha, Virginia, or Shenonymous for their egregious behaviors on this forum I have not seen such. What I have seen are their continued childish insults interspersed with your requests to me , and me alone, to post with politeness.

Until and unless you stand up to these bullies, and some have tried only to ignore them in the end, I find your position less than saintly.

Nader was right and Liberals are in need of pressuring Obama, if they can to get him to do something for the country in a positive way. Do you agree or not? I agree. I just don’t know what kind of things we can do that would actually put pressure on the gov’t to support even a Public Option. Do you?

I agree that Nader was and is correct, that’s why I voted for him three times and counting. I disagree that any amount of “pressure” by progressives will have any affect upon his decision making. That is why I hold to third party solutions to our ever increasing problems in this nation. I think it a long and perhaps too tedious a road for some, but it beats the hell out of violent revolution.

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By ardee, August 23, 2009 at 5:45 am Link to this comment

MarthaA, August 22 at 10:40 pm #

ardee,

You whine incessantly.
..............................

Do you know the difference between whining and holding strange and unbelievable views of reality? Of course you dont, as you hold such views.

What is worse, I wonder, oh clarion of egregious nonsense; “whining” or admitting to posting propaganda, holding views that have no basis in reality, posting as two individuals ( at least), and worst of all condemning any and all disagreement with your “unique political views” ( hows that Night Gaunt?) as agents of the right, liars, spies ,trolls and the rest of the litany of sophomoric accusations you spew at all who “dare” disagree with you?

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By MarthaA, August 22, 2009 at 8:33 pm Link to this comment

truedigger3 8/14 6:19am:

trudigger3 said: “there is no REAL difference between the Democratic and Republican parites.”

I beg to differ.  There is a great difference, one is the Nobles and the other is the Nearly Noble “wanna be” Nobles.

The 10% elite NOBLES, are the Republican Party, the Right-Wing. Any member of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION in the Republican Party is working against their own best interest, if they aren’t a Noble, they should not be in the Republican Party.

The 20% “wanna be” Elite NEARLY NOBLE Professional Middle Class is actually a part of the Left-Wing, that have taken over the Democratic Party and separated themselves from the greater part of the Left-Wing, as a separate class and culture to CONSERVATIVELY represent themselves as if they are the Right, a psuedo-Right against the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION, but this is very important, they are NOT THE RIGHT, they are a part of the LEFT and a united 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION can vote them out of their sole representation of the entire Left-Wing, as they quit representing the entire Left-Wing, when they formed their NEW CLASS to represent only the upper 20 percent of the Left-Wing, their NEW CLASS, at the expense of the rest of the population, the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION.

BOTH POLITICAL PARTIES ARE NOT THE SAME.

Democrats = Entire Common Population, but now the Nearly Noble NEW CLASS is all that is represented.

Republicans = Represent Nobles ONLY.

Anything else is deceit.

The Republican Party DOESN’T represent any part of the Common Population.

The Democratic Party is to represent all of the Common Population. But they have declared a NEW CLASS, which is why the Common Population needs a political party for their representation.

When the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION become aware of who they are we will be able to take back control in the government, but getting aware is a problem with the CONSERVATIVES of both parties deceiving the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION in all forms of the media, and even the Right representing themselves as the Left.

Awareness is what is needed: ONLY AWARENESS.

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By MarthaA, August 22, 2009 at 7:40 pm Link to this comment

ardee,

You whine incessantly.

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By elisalouisa, August 22, 2009 at 3:21 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther:That “earth is united under capitalism” bit in a little much for me
also.The earth will never be united under capitalism because such a system
allows the strong, ruthless and cunning to rape the earth. A police state would
have to be in place to continue such a form of government. The real issue is
what can be done now to better our conditions and bring about a government
that is more equitable? One must remember that we have nothing to bargain
with. What with drones and weapons of mass destruction it is coming to the
point when people are no longer needed to fight wars. Much of the food
production is done in other countries. This will I suspect increase. As job
opportunities diminish our voice in government also diminishes, for you
cannot come to the bargaining table with a bill of indebtedness. It was not our
doing that such a situation came to be. They were like thiefs in night when they
took our factories elsewhere. Questioning the wisdom of such an undertaking
only brought reassurance that more jobs would be created. Now we see the
capitalist system along with its corporate rape of America for what it is. Those
in power however, did not plan very far down the road for if people cannot pay
their bills due to lack of employment, the lifestyle of the high and mighty is
endangered. What is the next state? Either a more pronounced police state in
order that the elite can maintain their status and keep what they have stolen, or
a socialistic government where people have opportunity to better themselves.
We would have to fight very hard for the latter for it is not going to be given to
us through election, transition or mild revolution.
The Repubs are unified under the subconscious spirit of manifest destiny. That
is why the right wing works so well with the Evangelical Christians. Only this
time the ticket of manifest destiny is for the world.The atrocities committed
against the Indians are now committed on a global scale. Drones, according to
news anchors, are an innovation to be praised. Fliers in Nevada can man a
drone in Afghanistan killing whomever they please thus (although this item is
not added in the news) fulfilling our inherent duty to rule the world. Capitalism
and Imperialism have gone hand-in-hand; that is the context of our global
economy. If you look at it from the viewpoint, it almost all comes together.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 22, 2009 at 2:30 pm Link to this comment

Why are you trying to pick a fight Ardee? I did include them an any others who use insult as part of their way of winning arguments. It applies to anyone who uses them for whatever reason. Not just you. It is up to you and anyone else to decide to use them or respond to others insults. Are you better than they are Ardee?  I was just pointing out how ineffective and pointless it is to the topic like this one. Do you remember the topic?

Nader was right and Liberals are in need of pressuring Obama, if they can to get him to do something for the country in a positive way. Do you agree or not? I agree. I just don’t know what kind of things we can do that would actually put pressure on the gov’t to support even a Public Option. Do you?

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By cann4ing, August 22, 2009 at 2:12 pm Link to this comment

By Folktruther, August 22 at 1:53 pm #

I don’t think socialism is possible in nations in today’s world until the earth is united and developed under capitalism.

_________________________

Developed?  Don’t you mean “destroyed.”

The world has suffered under the yoke of unrestrained, global capitalism for the past 60 years.  As a consequence we face global catastrophe from climate change to the greatest gap in wealth in history.

People are starving; 18,000 Americans die each year because of a corrupt, dysfunctional and deadly health care system that pits the obscene wealth of a handful of CEOs and their Wall Street investors against the health and very lives of our people…

And here comes Folktruther, stuck in a Marxist concept of historical inevitability, suggesting that we can’t seek socialism—the most pure form of democracy—because capitalism has not been given adequate time to “unite and develop.”

(No offense to the religious nut jobs, but that “historical inevitability” concept is sort of like waiting for the Messiah.)

Enough of the quasi-Marxist mumblings from the guy who, alternatively, thinks he’s an anarchist.

Progressives of America.  Unite!  To Hell with capitalist “development.”

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By ardee, August 22, 2009 at 1:52 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, August 22 at 3:59 pm

You evade and avoid the real point; She-wolf, MarthaA and Virginia are all three prone to incessant insults, off topic and unearned ones as well, yet escape any such mention thereof by you.

Why would that be?

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By Night-Gaunt, August 22, 2009 at 12:59 pm Link to this comment

“But earthperson socialism is very different from the siege socialism of national power systems of marxism.”Folk Truther

Well considering that Marx was interested in Anarchy of the proletariat to organize for themselves and build up a nation on the ruins of Capitalist greed, then I would disagree with your assessment according to your analysis. It wasn’t Marx in Russia, China or Cambodia this last century, they were dictatorships of the elites who took control through power and terror.

Believe it or not I wasn’t criticizing you Ardee, just making an observation that might cool the jets and return to civility. It was an observation and suggestion and in no way was I “defending them” as you assert. If they bother you then just ignore them. The rest of us are adults and can decide for ourselves whether there is any validity to any of the posters arguments. And calling them “morons” is conducive to more attacks. That is a fact that promotes more name calling and doesn’t prove you or they correct. Just try that name calling when you are around other people and see how well that works. It doesn’t.  I was unaware that pointing out that name calling is inferior to actually showing the errors in another arguments and analysis “sanctimonious” in any way.

Think debate club and see if you would pass. Debate shows why you are right, name calling doesn’t for anyone. Facts win.

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By Folktruther, August 22, 2009 at 10:53 am Link to this comment

“Our task is to build movements that can act as a counterweight to the corporate rape of America. We must opt out of the mainstream. We must articulate and stand behind a viable and uncompromising socialism ....”

I have begun to disagree with Hedges view. I don’t think socialism is possible in nations in today’s world until the earth is united and developed under capitalism.  The major struggle of our time is against Western imperialism, particularly American imperialism.  It is against imperialism that the battle must be fought to prevent nuclear war, the destrictuion of our tranditonal climate, and the enourmous eoconomic inequality and dstituiton.

It is only when the world is organized to restict national polities from oppressiona and exploitation, and developed under a more effective capitalism, that the next stage of socialism can be introduced.

However it is conceivable that this earthperson momvement can be conducted in coordination with the cooperatives that Anarcissie espouses, making it an earthperson socialist movement.  But earthperson socialism is very differnet from the seige socialism of national power systems of marxism. It is the corporate rape of the world that must be combated, not just the rape of the American continent.  And consequently, imperialism is the major enemy, along with its globalization that is creating a police world state.

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By ardee, August 22, 2009 at 10:28 am Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, August 22 at 1:04 pm

Sanctimonious much?

Both the execrable posters you defend have attacked me and my political posts on numerous occasion, as you well know. Thus your defense of these shitheads is tiresome and fallacious at best, perhaps something even worse.

Where, I wonder, oh defender of politeness and political correctness, is your chiding of the fork lift stupidities? Or the numerous calling of any who take an opposing view by the broomstick riding psycho as an agent of the GOP and a liar?

I find you quite tedious, nought gaunt and your smarmy left handed attacks on me stupid, especially and most importantly in your refusal to give equal time to pointing out the lack of sanity or even politeness the morons..

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By Night-Gaunt, August 22, 2009 at 10:04 am Link to this comment

Ardee;

It would be more constructive to point out the fallacies you see in MarthaA & PurpleGirl‘s proposal over simply saying it is so and then insulting them. If you were in a debate you would lose points. Think debate not as smearfest. This isn’t a beauty contest nor is it personality but having the latter is good on any written forum.

“We don’t do things because they are easy, but because they are hard.”President JFK

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By ardee, August 22, 2009 at 5:35 am Link to this comment

MarthaA, August 21 at 9:31 pm #

Purple Girl,

If Nader wants to run, run in the Democratic Party, if they won’t let him run for President, run for what he can.
.............................

This is worth re-posting if only to point out the incredible imbecility of the comment and the political philosophy.

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By elisalouisa, August 21, 2009 at 9:18 pm Link to this comment

Martha: President Obama is in office because of the grassroots network.
****************************************************
Obama will be a one term President, just like Carter. Carter got rid of the bad
taste Nixon left and Obama was put in to do the same as to the legacy Bush left.
Putting Obama in after Bush was, as Folktruther stated, a brilliant coup. The
Grassroots people, noble as they are, played right into the hands of those who
really pick the candidate,Wall Street and others of similar station.

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By MarthaA, August 21, 2009 at 6:31 pm Link to this comment

Purple Girl,

If Nader wants to run, run in the Democratic Party, if they won’t let him run for President, run for what he can. Gorbachev didn’t get done what he did in Russia by being stupid.  It will take wisdom to break through the Conservative Web, but with patience it can be done.  A 3rd Party that isn’t constitutionally legislated as an institution will not do any good.  What we need is a Multi-Party Political System constitutionally legislated as an institution wholely equal with both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party, so that the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION doesn’t have to deal with CONSERVATIVES and Moderates, as all CONSERVATIVES and Moderates will be in the other two parties and our leadership will watch the voting and those who vote against the Commons Party will be made known and voted out of the Commons Party by a 2/3rds vote of the party’s representatives in Congress. This is how it should be, instead of having so many people who do not represent the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION.

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By MarthaA, August 21, 2009 at 6:07 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad,

Governor Dean has already set up a grassroots network in the Democratic Party all over the nation, the Democratic Party is the only party in which to work if you ever want to see change.  President Obama is in office because of the grassroots network, and the people of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION must use the grassroots network that Governor Dean set up and converge on the Democratic Party in the Primary Election Process and vote all CONSERVATIVES and Moderates out of the Democratic Party.  Later if we notice the Liberals are voting CONSERVATIVE, then oust them, until we get people in the Democratic Party that represent the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION, which is nearly 3/4th of the nation.  The grassroots needs to be pulled together for the purpose of reclaiming and reforming our Democratic Party, so that there can be a Multi-Party Political System formed through legislation and institutionalized wholely equal with the Democratic Party and the Republican Party.

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By Leefeller, August 21, 2009 at 5:48 pm Link to this comment

Every time “Nader is right” I find it amusing, because I want to add “wing”.  All right Nader was right so what, so are many people on this thread, for what it is worth, I say so what!

What needs to be done is take over the Democratic party, by people who do not have degrees in opportunism. (This may limit the choices here) then drive the remaining drivel spewing Republicans into the pavement with their cosmogonist smiles. Republicans seem seldom to have anything to do with reality anyway. So then when we have one real peoples party everything would be just right, sort of like the three bears story, with the just right mush and a happy Red Riding Hood.

If one is to bastardize reality, doing a measure of insanty seems to help.

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By Sepharad, August 21, 2009 at 5:27 pm Link to this comment

ardee and Mike, I think we have to figure out a way to get our numbers in one party and run that one party against the two major ones. ardee, it’s true that getting individualists who care about a specific issue to join with others who care about another specific issue is like herding cats. Perhaps they could agree to agree on an overall progressive agenda, then deploy to small specific gatherings according to their interests—as you’ve pointed out the Repulicans seem to do to such major effect.
Gotta be some way out of this stalemate we are slogging through uphill while our agenda is going downhill, harried by better-organized people.

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By Mike, August 20, 2009 at 2:34 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

By Sepharad, August 17 at 1:11 am #

“It might be that one reason they don’t take us more seriously is that they see progressives as the loony left scattered in other little parties.”

But numbers matter. If “the loony left” presented significant numbers of potential votes, the Democratic Party would have no choice but to take them seriously and to move proportionally leftward. Unfortunately, in a two-party system, people tend to compromise so as to avoid “throwing one’s vote away.” Primary parties must follow the votes. They have no reason to change if we will vote for them anyway.

By Earthianguy, August 17 at 12:32 am #

“Cindy Sheehan’s campaign … is a clear example of the futility of operating entirely outside of the Democratic Party ... Nancy was unpopular ... Cindy was a very well known true progressive. But she [ran] as an independent. She got 17 percent of the vote. Nancy got about 71 percent.”

Was Sheehan perceived to be a single-issue candidate? Did her status as an independent undermine her candidacy? What basis do you have for their popularity prior to the election? Do you think that a serious challenge to Pelosi would affect her behavior as a representative? If Sheehan had won sufficient votes so as to demonstrate a real vulnerability for Pelosi, wouldn’t Pelosi be forced to shift leftward to some degree, given the lack of competition on her right? 

“I suggest that we can think more inclusively, and more broadly when it comes to electoral tactics. Progressives can *both* support progressives in the Democratic Party, *and* can join the Green Party. … We can *both* pursue movements, as we should, *and* we can pursue electoral politics supporting and promoting progressives…”

I certainly agree, but it is probably most effective to vote for the party that best represents you in any case. If the Democratic Party loses votes to the Green Party, the former will have to shift in policy and rhetoric towards the latter so as to remain competitive. The best way to reform a primary party is to not vote for it.

By MarthaA, August 16 at 5:51 pm #

“I never would have thought that that song, “Onward Christian Soldiers Marching As To War” would have become a mantra for occupation of small countries”

Categorical thought, especially of the religious kind, has a way of inspiring & justifying extreme behavior while the soldier analogy lends itself well to justifying militarism.

By truedigger3, August 15 at 3:55 pm #

“the Democratic party had joined the Republican party in serving big money/corporations and abandoning labor and the common folks giving them only rhetoric and make believe posturing and theatrics without any substance whatsoever.”

This is systemic. Plurality electoral systems imply that parties must strive for support of the median (think of a bell curve). This requires fundraising and posturing as needed, else the opposition wins.

By Folktruther, August 14 at 11:49 pm:

“the current power structure is … being covered up in the learned and mass media.” And, “Putting Obama in power as a public face was a brilliant public relations coup.”

This is irrational. The problem is organic rather than conspiratorial. Conspiracies are inherently fragile and preposterous on such a scale. Institutions may be biased but the problem is our culture, most particularly our philosophy of individualism.

By MarthaA, August 14 at 1:34 pm #

“WE …  must endeavor to pluck out and REFORM the Democratic Party, rather than just to whine…”

The best way to reform it is to not vote for it. If they cannot win enough votes, then, in the long-run, they must change or else be replaced.

By truedigger3, August 14 at 6:19 am #

“The difference between the two parties is in rhetoric and it is all in make-believe and theatrics…”

The difference is more than rhetoric but they both must patronize the median of public opinion and can only stray so far.

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By ardee, August 20, 2009 at 3:32 am Link to this comment

Sepharad, August 19 at 6:31 pm #

ardee, I answered your Aug. 18 questions in some detail (also KDeplphi’s observations) but for some reason TD didn’t add it to the thread. I probably was too specific re individuals you asked me if I knew. Sorry.

I think that until we can get those 70% populists under one big umbrella, an effective third party that can win, or at least wield so much influence that its presence will make legislators do the right thing, we are screwed.

I enjoy literate and thoughtful response but do not think them a right.

I posted,some time ago, despite the memory lapses of shenonymous, a demographic of the make up of the American political scene , one that showed rather obviously the lie of that 70% populism nonsense. I am certain that you are quite capable of finding similar figures yourself. ( I gotta save links)....

According to polls 70% of the population believes health care reform is necessary, but that does not mean that this 70% is populist. I fear that most Americans are really apolitical in fact, involved, as they need be, in family and career, voting , maybe, every two years or so.

Stats show plainly that, even in hotly contested elections, barely 50-60% of eligible voters exercise their duty at the ballot box. The same numbers seem to vote GOP and Dem each cycle as well,with minor aberrations of course, thus elections are swayed by a small minority of those voting.

The right wing of the GOP has shown plainly that energizing a tiny minority of folks committed to out of the mainstream ideologies is an effective tool in steering opinion. The Democrats have shown that herding cats is rather impossible.

I believe that the left is fractious and isolated , in part because they are what they are, unable to put aside relatively minor differences in order to achieve important steps, and in part because the media is owned by those who wish to keep the left that way.

I guess that, while I do have hope, I see an uphill road, and success may have to await some really bad events.

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By KDelphi, August 20, 2009 at 12:21 am Link to this comment

MarthaA—You might want to read Sen Sanders answer to being called a Socialist (which is what he is—and it IS a party—and a popular one   , everywhere in the free world, except the US)

U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders United States Senator for Vermont             August 20th, 2009
Sanders Socialist Successes

April 22, 2009 (On the Ambassador from Finland’s trip to Vt)

“... Finland is a country which provides high-quality health care to all of its people with virtually no out-of-pocket expense; where parents and their young children receive free excellent childcare and/or parental leave benefits which dwarf what our nation provides; where college and graduate education is free to students and where children in the public school system often record the highest results in international tests. In Finland, where 80 percent of workers belong to unions, all employees enjoy at least 30 days paid vacation and the gap between the rich and poor is far more equitable than in the United States. ....

One reason there was so much interest in the Finnish model was that even before Wall Street greed drove the world economy into a deep recession, more and more Americans were wondering why the very rich were becoming richer while our economy failed our working families. They wanted to know why the middle class was shrinking, poverty was increasing and the United States was the only major country without a national health care program. Despite all the rhetoric about “family values,” workers in the United States now work the longest hours of any people in a major country. Our health care system is disintegrating. At last count, 47 million Americans had no health insurance while we spend twice as much per capita on health care as any other nation.

We have the highest rate of childhood poverty in the industrialized world. Our childcare system is totally inadequate. Too many of our kids drop out of school, and college is increasingly unaffordable. One of the results of how we neglect many of our children is that we end up with more people in jails and prisons than any other country on earth. There is a correlation between the highest rate of childhood poverty and the highest rate of incarceration….”


http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=7b6eba9b-67f5-4d8f-bc75-ce63a07035d2

“.....despite the differences, there are important similarities. Both countries share many of the same aspirations for their people. When one thinks about the long march of human history, it is no small thing that democratic countries like Finland exist that operate under egalitarian principles, which have virtually abolished poverty, which provide almost-free, quality health care to all their people, and provide free, high-quality education from child care to graduate school.

Whether we live in Burlington, Vt. or Birmingham, Ala., we should be prepared to study and learn from the successes of social-democratic countries….”

They dont have a “70% COMMON POPULATION ” in Finland—almost 96% are middle class, and their standard of living is , is alot higher than in the US.

The duppoly is failing the people and those who promote it are no friend to the actual common people.

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By MarthaA, August 19, 2009 at 8:35 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller,

The system was having some problems but the Webmaster said it was repaired.

Here is a post I made to glider that I will repost to you:
...........

Sen. Bernie Sanders I-VT was elected as a single Independent that gets to sit on the Left with the Democrats, and takes orders from Democrats Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer the leaders of the Democrats and any committees he gets on will have to be OK’d with the Democrats, although since he is an Independent, he could chose to sit with the Republicans. Independent is not a political party, only a single position in either the Right or the Left.  It is really a pretty weak position.  Sen. Joe Lieberman I-CT used to be a Democrat, but he was kicked out of his party by the Democrats because he represented Republicans, so he ran singularly as an Independent and got back in and still sits with the Democrats, although he mostly votes with the Republicans.

Being under the Democrats leadership or under the Republicans leadership does not allow political freedom. Senator Sanders has a website and he can talk, but his legislation has to be approved by the leaders before it is brought before the Senate, whereas if we had a 3rd institutionalized political party there would be three columns in the Senate, with the Republicans to the Right, the Democrats to the Middle, and the, let’s say Commons Party to the Left and the members of the Commons Party would only sit in committee with other members of the Commons Party.  We do not have this now, but it is sorely needed, like Medical Care for all individuals.
.........
Greens will only get to do exactly the same as an Independent, even though they have a Political Party, it doesn’t mean anything in Congress any more than a singular Independent, because a 3rd Political Party has not been institutionalized through legislation to be legally equal by law with the other two political parties.  There is NO WAY other than using the Democratic Party or bloody revolution.  I much prefer to exhaust all possibilities of using the Democratic Party Primary Process to reform the Democratic Party before any thought of losing my life through bloody revolution, although if REFORM is exhausted to no avail all that is left is bloody revolution of which there would be no alternative, but exhausting all avenues of REFORM is what must be done first.

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By Leefeller, August 19, 2009 at 4:48 pm Link to this comment

FYI TDers,

Some of my posts did not show up and I thought I was being baned, but now I believe TD was down, it seems TD is really working much better now.

All one needs to do is look at how the Democratic partae handled Mike Gravel and Kucinich to see how progressives merit in the grand scheme of things. Opportunism rules, reality is not an option, just like accountability.

Obama seemed quite the liberal in the beginning and as most movements turned out to be other than what he seemed in the beginning. All Movements have change within depending on how the struggle goes.  So those who fantasize about a real people party, the opposition will always fight to keep what they have.

Movements require a leader as Shepard stated, do we see a leader in the horizon, for some reason one could vision the deluded Palin throwing her me in the ring. Obama may be as good as it gets for the mean time?

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By Sepharad, August 19, 2009 at 3:31 pm Link to this comment

ardee, I answered your Aug. 18 questions in some detail (also KDeplphi’s observations) but for some reason TD didn’t add it to the thread. I probably was too specific re individuals you asked me if I knew. Sorry.

I think that until we can get those 70% populists under one big umbrella, an effective third party that can win, or at least wield so much influence that its presence will make legislators do the right thing, we are screwed.

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By elisalouisa, August 19, 2009 at 2:52 pm Link to this comment

Sorry for the ending on my last post. The board grabbed it before I was through.
The point is such a leader would be taking a risk. I’ve looked and I don’t see any
risk takers on the horizon.

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By elisalouisa, August 19, 2009 at 2:46 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller to Martha:In theory only, your idea may be right and could work, but
getting 70 percent of the people to do something together and agree on one thing
in unison, would be much harder than the 15 or 20 opportunists who sit in the
smoke filled rooms of History. 
So true Leefeller.
Martha:Where is the leader of 70% of the people you mention?  What does this
70% common population consist of? They must be of various religions or lack
thereof.  Varying income or lack thereof. Differing moral standards. What unifies
this 70% majority other than the word"common” which if you think about it a good
percentage would challenge as an apt description of the category they fit in. Many
have no bargaining chip other than their vote which those 15 or 20 opportunists
have no doubt that they can take away by their fast talk or stuffing the ballot box.
A leader is needed to wake people up as to what is really going on and the impending crisis at hand. Such a leader would have to go against the grain so to speak and this would not make fora

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By Leefeller, August 19, 2009 at 1:03 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA,

In theory only, your idea may be right and could work, but getting 70 percent of the people to do something together and agree on one thing in unison, would be much harder than the 15 or 20 opportunists who sit in the smoke filled rooms of History.  Morality, integrity and truth have nothing to do with reality or fact.

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By MarthaA, August 19, 2009 at 10:44 am Link to this comment

Leefeller,

The Democratic Party has already dissolved leadership of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION as a Class and Culture in favor of the 20% minority of the Professional Middle Class, the Nearly Nobles, that rule the Democratic Party as the Democratic Leadership Council, which is the New Democrats, the Moderates and the CONSERVATIVES.

The 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION as a Class and Culture has the voting strength in the Primary Election Process to walk in on the Democratic Party at the poling places throughout the United States and dissolve the Democratic Party leadership, the Democratic Leadership Council, that represents the 20% Professional Middle Class as a singularity of Nearly Nobles to the exclusion of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION as a Class and Culture.

Like your union leadership did to your local, the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION must walk in on the Democratic Party leadership at the Primary Election poling places, and dissolve the Democratic Party leadership by voting in 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION candidates to run in the General Election throughout the nation; the process is the same for us as it is for them and we have the voting strength to make it happen.

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By Leefeller, August 19, 2009 at 7:36 am Link to this comment

Canning4

At one time I was active in a progressive union which was really taking care of things, the Chapter I was in was very active and winning abusive grievances against management and calling them on some unfair practices. Success was at hand, our chapter was active and growing, until the Union Bosses walked in on our Chapter meeting smoking cigars, took over the meeting and basically dissolved our Chapter. We may have been to successful?

I see the Democratic party in the same light. People in charge do not take lightly threats to their power. It may be human nature, I have seen the same kind of power struggles in a local Church.  Success or rightness even morality has nothing to stand on when against someone holding power.

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By Liberal Democratic Party USA, August 19, 2009 at 6:18 am Link to this comment

Boycott Tyson Foods of Arkansas. Call lobbyist for Tyson Foods Chuck Penry 202 393 3921 and tell him politely that you refuse to buy Tyson chicken until Mike Ross D-Arkansas the leader of the Blue Dogs on health care gets the entire house and senate conservative Democrats to help get HR 676 enacted into law. Tell others to call. Send me email after you call to .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Boycott American Express who gave Max Baucus $50,000 for his campaigns. Call Joanna Lambert at 212 640 9668 and politely tell her you will not use any American Express cards until Max Baucus gets HR 676 enacted into law. Email me after you call.

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By MarthaA, August 19, 2009 at 6:09 am Link to this comment

cann4ing,

I agree with the tactic for taking over the Democratic Party.  This is the only thoughtful way to do it, anything else is a waste of time and won’t be productive.

The Democratic Party and politics in the United States is undergoing a sea change that will bring political representation to the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION.  The Democratic Party will be taken over by the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION as the movement develops and grows; those who would represent the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION in the Democratic Party, and do so; those who do not will be left behind.  Either Nader will join the Democratic Party and represent the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION as a Class and Culture or Nader will be left behind and someone else will represent the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION as a Class and Culture in his stead; the choice is his.

I would like to see Nader in the Democratic Party if he will represent the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION as a Class and Culture, but if Nader is just another NEW CLASS Liberal, the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION as a Class and Culture have no requirement for his services.  We already have a sufficiency of NEW CLASS Liberals in the Democratic Party and the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION as a Class and Culture are not represented by the infestation of NEW CLASS Liberals that currently exists.

http://www.mutualist.org/id7.html

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By MarthaA, August 19, 2009 at 5:49 am Link to this comment

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By MarthaA, August 19, 2009 at 5:48 am Link to this comment

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