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Inside Story on Town Hall Riots: Right-Wing Shock Troops Do Corporate America’s Dirty Work

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Posted on Aug 10, 2009

By Adele M. Stan, AlterNet

This article was published previously on AlterNet.org.

The recent spate of town hall dustups may look like an overnight sensation, but they’ve been years, even decades, in the making.

Since the days in the late 1970s, when the New Right began its takeover of the Republican Party, it has cultivated a militia of white people armed with a grudge against those who brought forth the social changes of the ’60s.

These malcontents have been promised their day of retribution, a day for which they are more than ready. Few seem to understand that they are merely dupes for a corporate agenda that will only worsen the conditions in which they live.

Why, you may ask, would men of power and fame shake the rough, unmanicured hands of gun enthusiasts, conspiracy theorists, gay-haters, misogynists and racists?

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Because somebody’s got to do the dirty work. Magnates don’t like to soil their French cuffs, and it’s hard for a bunch of rich guys to garner sympathy for threats to their bottom lines. It’s the classic inside-outside game that the right wing of the GOP has played for the last two decades.

The Health-Care Industry Executive

Imagine you’re an executive at a pharmaceutical company. Your U.S. operations are your cash cow; they earn you wild net profits because, unlike in other industrialized nations, you do not experience the price controls of a government-administered program in which the government negotiates for the best price on prescription drugs and devices.

Along comes a government plan for health-insurance reform that includes a public, government-financed plan. The public option, they call it. As part of the plan, you will be required to negotiate with the government for the price of medications and devices to be distributed within the plan.

Now that could really screw up your massive profit margins. Private plans might then insist on prices more like those the government is getting.

Instead of increasing your profit by double digits in the worst year the economy has seen since the Great Depression, as did an outfit called The Medicines Co., your shareholders may have to settle for profits more in line with the overall growth of the economy. And wouldn’t that just stink?

Meanwhile, polls show a clear majority of Americans—you know, regular Americans, the kind who don’t want to own an AK-47, or who do accept the president’s citizenship status—favor the public option. In fact, in June, CBS News found that majority to be 72 percent.

So, whaddaya do? Well, if your lobbying firm counts former Rep. Dick Armey, R-Texas, as its senior policy adviser, you don’t have do much. Dick will take care of the rest through FreedomWorks, the ostensibly grassroots, nonprofit organization of anti-taxers, cold warriors and affirmative-action opponents, which he chairs.

Need to make it look like regular Americans oppose the health-insurance reform bills now being considered by Congress? Make sure a handful of those angry white people turn up at the town hall meetings now being conducted by members of Congress throughout the country. Make sure they disrupt the meeting and rattle the congressperson.

Capture it all on amateur video and put it up on a faux, amateur-looking Web site, and try to kid the media into thinking there’s a widespread rebellion happening. After all, the media are gonna want that dramatic footage.

The Republican Member of Congress

Now, suppose you’re a Republican member of Congress. Your party got totally throttled in the 2008 election, and if you don’t derail this health care thing, it’s going to be a big win for your Democratic opponents, as millions of underinsured and uninsured Americans finally have some health care coverage—one bright spot in a largely dismal economy.

Meanwhile, you get a lot of your campaign cash from health-care-related industries and from the Wall Street bankers and brokers who want to keep those profits soaring.

A public option is going to stink for you, too. So, while Armey’s army of taxphobes is useful to you, it would be great to get some really hard-core types to further stoke the fires—especially if marshaled by guys who know how to really tar Democrats with racist imagery and slurs of unpatriotic behavior.

That’s where Grassfire.org and its brother networking site, ResistNet, come in. Sen. Jim DeMint, R-S.C., who promised to make health-care reform President Obama’s "Waterloo," is a big fan. Says so right there on the Grassfire Web site. ResistNet is yet another right-wing hub for organizing the disruption of health-care town hall meetings.

The Media Mogul

Okay, now put on the hat of a media mogul, one who rails against the minimal restrictions the U.S. has on multi-outlet ownership, and one for whom the bottom line is everything. In fact, you actually own the Wall Street Journal.

If you can nip this health care thing in the bud, you could stand in the way of a president who wants to rein in Wall Street’s worse excesses and who may depress the profit margins of health-care companies in which your readers invest with his dastardly public option. What’s a mogul to do?

Why not hire a guy known for riling the discontented to host a show on your cable news channel, and empower him as an organizer? Let him create a little project pegged to fear and nationalism—something, say, like 9/11—through which he mobilizes bands of those aggrieved by the fact of a black president to disrupt town hall meetings.

That’s exactly what Rupert Murdoch did when he hired Glenn Beck to host a Fox News Channel show and to put together a little organizing site called The 9-12 Project.


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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, August 20, 2009 at 11:53 am Link to this comment

I am sorry Shenonymous and everyone, I should have checked to be sure I had the correct URLs. Here they are;

http://www.talk2action.org/
      &
http://www.news@chalcedon.eu/

These are now corrected and I sit in abject apology.

As I recall Cassandra had offended the Gods and so for her punishment she had the foresight to see the future and the absolute truth of it. However the part of her curse was that no one would believe her no matter how often they had seen proof of her veracity. Admittedly everyone would say that something is wrong and that it is needed for all to “awake!” [Even the NSDAP had “Duetschland erwatche!” on their banners.] So it just sounds like another mad person warning about the “end of the world”  or “the sky is falling,” so I know what it entails. But even crying wolf can be for real, so calling it falsely so often actually makes it easier for the wolf to do what it wants unmolested. I see something, I point it out and look to find others who say that they see it also.

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By OzarkMichael, August 20, 2009 at 10:41 am Link to this comment

So now we are both bold and italicised

Shenonymous, you outdid me, a usual.

Is discussing Calvin going to swerve off topic? yes. is it appropriate? i dunno.

On the other hand, Cassandra is always appropriate.

The one that Nightgaunt was probably thinking of was the one in the Iliad. That Cassandra had the gift of prophecy, but also had a curse: the curse that no one would believe her. As you recall, she warned that the Greek gift was not something that Troy should keep within its gates. Its a sad story, and i would say a very feminine one, reflecting the injustice not only of powerlessness, but also of sexism.

If the minotaur represents masculinity, Cassandra represents femininity. She ends up getting raped, and the echo of ‘no one will believe her’ echoes through the ages to the unfortunate women who have been raped ever since.

Night Gaunt and i should not claim to be modern Cassandras, but instead we could claim to be the modern Laocoon, who was not blessed with prophecy but instead had a little too much common sense for his own good.

Laocoon also warned against the Horse which was brought into Troy. He was on the verge of convincing the people of Troy to burn the Horse, when suddenly serpents came and carried him away. A terrible end but quite straight forward. A masculine end.

The people of Troy just shrugged their shoulders at this, and also at Cassandra when she warned them. They dragged the horse in, and proceeded to have a happy party to celebrate their ‘victory’.

Cassandra was captured and dragged off into humiliating captivity. Symbolizing the truth that the feminine must pay for a long time, even though it had nothing to do with the stupid decisions, even when she counsels a wiser course of action.

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By Shenonymous, August 20, 2009 at 7:42 am Link to this comment

  Will this fix it?  I donno.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, August 20, 2009 at 7:40 am Link to this comment

My Deah Leefellah,
Your attempt to be polite is, can we say, uh, ‘loverly?[/]’  Thank you.

Good morning - Just to make you shudder, I have over a hunnert songs by the
JewBoy.  They be all played at least once a week just so I don’t forget how
“activist” music can be.  Besides there is something about his groaning and
wailing voice that I find attractive.  I particularly like Neighborhood Bully (which
might even suit your personality) and Masters of War.  Totally enjoyed your post
here, I haven’t laughed as hard since Night-Gaunt was overwhelmed by the
number of characters he had remaining.  Our Theater continues to entertain.  I
hope you appreciated the pun that is hiding in this post.  Here for your
irritating enticklement (yeah, I make up words).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWkWSLEW-Ds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO6p7WvS6Hg

I wonder what would happen if I hung a sign outside “Madame Hilda
Dominionist.  I often see the local poleece parked out in front of my own
house.  Course they be watchin’ for speeders, they be needin’ some extra cash
in the till for whatever it is that poleece do for fun.  Maybe visiting Madame(s)?

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, August 20, 2009 at 7:17 am Link to this comment

Dear She, (By the way using the dear thing here seems strange to me,  for I do not know if anyone here is dear?) Sort of like when I sent a letter to Monsanto saying “Dear Sirs:” as they force GMO’s down my throat. 

Speaking of narrow mindlessness Bob Dylan and Dominionists, my perceived abrasion to Dylan was from a force fed saturation when I was in the service, by a sidekick who lived in the same cubicle.  This guy was probably Dylans best fan, he played Dylan songs night and day, day and night plus he sang Dylan songs constantly off key, (I preferred Credence)  I had never witnessed such repeated concentrations of the same message over and over in my life, until reading some posters messages here on TD. Though now I enjoy and am delighted by Dylan songs.

Only time I have heard the use of the word Dominionist is in association with a strange lady down the road who wears black, (I had thought she was a widow with tattoos)  one can hear yelling and screaming all hours of the day and night coming from her place, the sign out front says “Madame Hilda Dominionist”.  Never figured out what goes on at her place, but my brother says it is like a getting a massage and going to a chiropractor at the same time.  They seem to have problems on occasion, because I see the local constables car parked out front quite often.

As for my narrow mindlessness, I am trying to give it up.

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By Shenonymous, August 20, 2009 at 7:12 am Link to this comment

There is a question as to whether Calvin didn’t in fact hinder the progress of
the world in spite of being an assistant to Luther in the reformation of the
Christian religion that was under the complete province of the Roman Catholic
Church.  That is a dialogue sorely needed but is it appropriate to digress in that
direction here and now?

To say, ”The urgent need to wake people up…”  is one of those gross
nebulous statements that speak of “the people” as if it were an entity of its
own.  It is a mental illusion.  It is the favorite word of the desperate politicians
who limp along with their personal agendas instead of genuinely caring for “the
people.”  The fabricated classes spoken of on this forum is exactly the same
thing.  It is a “way” of avoiding real existent problems, a way of talking around
in order to build an architecture.  Then the attempt to philosophize about the
architecture is what is engaged not the real problem.  To talk about “the
people” is metalanguage, using imaginary entities to talk about them as if they
were real.  It is the epitome of metaphoric talk.  For instance “Remember
Cassandra.”
is supposed to carry some very weighty message.  As if
everyone knew who Cassandra is,who is a character at the time of Caesar who
is said could predict, a crystal baller without crystal ball in hand.  As if the
character Shakespeare actually dramatized was real and was able to predict. 
Even if she had lived and was in the household of Caesar, it is requisite for
intelligent people to remember the milieu in which she was said to exist.  One
that believed in many gods, one that held to an encyclopedia of superstition. 
She is characterized somewhat as a Mentalist like the guy on TV.  But here is
his secret.  He looks at everything, he notices details most gloss over, most
who accept dogma.  But he is a fiction just as Cassandra was.  So using the
emblematic to identify reality is the tricky way of inventing an illusion either to
oneself or for others then demanding that it be the reality. 

I will invoke my bumper sticker now, “Get a grip.”

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By OzarkMichael, August 20, 2009 at 5:19 am Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt said: Think John Calvin and the theocracy of the Massachucetts Bay Colony as one example they point to, another the Vienna of Calvin.

Without Calvin, good points and bad, it is hard to imagine the American Revolution.  The Geneva of Calvin was a step towards something better. This is takes some objectivity to understand.

Remember Cassandra? It is easy to feel like that.

I know the feeling. The 3411 letters that remain for me to post in could not express the yearning to break through, the urgent need to wake people up, and the frustration of not being able to do so.

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By Shenonymous, August 20, 2009 at 1:34 am Link to this comment

This is a near copy of a post made on another forum.  It seemed relevant to
MarthaA’s conent and style of presentation here as well. Maybe not, but it will
use up a small amount of forum space and if I am missing the mark, if I have
not reasoned well, I’m sure I will be told.

MarthaA On the other forum I wrote this because I wanted to thank you
for the clarification on who first presented the word sophist into the forums.  It
isn’t really important who did.  It was in your posts that I first noticed it being
used and used a lot.  Pretenders to wisdom seems to be a mental affliction of
epidemic proportions both in the world at large, and in the microcosm of these
forums.  Its practice isn’t restricted to any one ideology. 

I think I am beginning to understand your use of the word sophist and for my
set of beliefs I believe you are using it rightly, but your expositories have been
for the most part arcane, and pardon me for saying it, are of mythic
proportions.  They are framed in the language of sociology (which is why you
recommended I read Gouldner).  Once I became adapted to reading your posts
I was able to excavate meaning.  The word construction use of capitals, my
guess for emphasis, was distracting to make connections between the various
elements you were presenting.  After repeatedly viewing your characterization
of the divisions of mental attitudes into the categories of wealth, near wealth,
or without wealth the I began to see the metaphoric construction.  The
70/20/10 allocation of economic distribution within the two societies you were
referencing, England and the United States, is a tool to demonstrate the wide
disparity found in either’s population.  You did provide a historical milieu
using the Noble, Nearly Noble, and Common Majority.  Any fool would be able
to see that the ratio is not a fixed actual ratio and that no study has in fact
been done to provide any close approximation (It was comical that truedigger3
insisted it was 90% and typically without offering one shred of evidence).

You use the tripartite expression as a clue throughout your discussion as a
touchstone.  It is effective.  At first it was difficult for me to read your
comments not because of my limited association with the terms but in the way
you used them.  I am beginning to understand your criticism of the way this
society works through its government, but I admit, and I have to qualify that
with an “I think,” it is just a glimmer.  I have not decided whether I agree with
you or not, yet.  But I am interested to understand it. 

The other obvious pattern of your comments is the repetition, though not quite
rhythmic as that would send them distractingly into the realm of poetry and I
quite believe that is not what you are intending. But the repetition does set up
a resonance within the memory psychology and is intentional to lay a
foundation on which to build your thesis of a better way societies might work
where the larger portion, those without wealth would gain the most benefit.  Of
course this is all conjecture on my part but I am now fascinated enough to read
your posts indeed for understanding.  It is a different way of learning. I think
you are saying something significant.  It is I think, however, labyrinthine.  It fits
with Gouldner’s metaphor of the Minotaur.

Night-gaunt the two links do not work.  More on your post later.  I’m
running out of letter space on this one.  Only 524 out of 4000 left.

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, August 19, 2009 at 8:18 pm Link to this comment

Weren’t we told to ”...everywhere be bold!” by someone I can’t think of but it is a male and famous.

At http://www.chalcedon.com/ is where one of the grand old men of the movement, R.J.Rushdoony resided before his death, but his writings live on in many. Also on http://www.talk2action.com there is a five part series written by Chip Berlet who analyzes the whole phenomenon and just how far it extends. Think John Calvin and the theocracy of the Massachucetts Bay Colony as one example they point to, another the Vienna of Calvin. They are quite serious and have modified their Christianity to fit their ethos.

Its the ones you don’t know in the military and chairman or CEO of major corporations that have their tentacles in everything, nearly, that is the biggest problem. They are everywhere, it seems, and involved in so much. Or they are getting others to do their dirty work not even knowing they are helping them. It took me awhile to see that this is real and far deeper and more serious than I could believe possible.

The sad thing is our own gov’t has been setting up all of the factors and training to be a ruthless empire all these years. It just took many years to corrupt it and wear down the safe guards originally built in to keep this from happening. 

I know how conspirators are looked at and understand the psychology of it and the reasons they would like us to keep believing it couldn’t happen here. It isn’t the secrecy but the ability to accept it as fact. If you can’t then plausible deniability wins. A standard way to keep something secret is to expose it as a “fraud” then the threshold of believability goes up so high as to be stratospheric,and they are much safer. Remember Cassandra? It is easy to feel like that.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, August 19, 2009 at 6:47 pm Link to this comment

Yes, OM, and think before you bold!

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, August 19, 2009 at 6:44 pm Link to this comment

Good evening Night-Gaunt I was trying to find where I wasn’t having
fun.  Guess it was when Dylan was associated with the bizarre alleged society
called the Dominionists and its actions called Dominionism. instead of
appreciating his music and the really really Christian religious lyrics.  I thought
it was a lovely tribute to waking up to the realities of the world using Christian
imagery to do it.  However there was a calculatedly flippant remark that set me
off.  Dominionism, as I understand what it is supposed to mean, is a nefarious
group intent on conquering the United States Government and forcing it to be
Evangelical Christian.  Whatever that could possibly mean?  It is about the
stupidest idea I’ve heard in a long time.  I consider it in the genre of The
Luciferian Illuminati, and in Catholic Lore, the Knights Templar, represent
similar insanities, though I think their agendas are slightly different.  The
Catholic belief borders on pathology, like the other two and is remindful of
Linda Blair’s head spinning bullshit in the movie the Exorcist.  What nonsense! 
The Illuminati has given rise to a plethora of peculiar groups who go around
raving about a world order take over.  WOW.  Time for something stronger than
Kool Aid.

Anyway, having got that out of my system, I could not want a better health care
program than I have.  So my only stake in this entire fiasco of health care
reform involvement is that I am concerned that others do not have coverage,
and that the entire population is being bankrupted by insurance companies. 
Pharmaceuticals are also raking in untold wealth but they do provide a service
of good medicines.  That does not let them off the hook entirely.  The entire
system for health care needs repaired and to deny that is an insanity.

You comment about the number of characters remaining is hysterical and I
laughed myself all the way to the fridge to get something cold to drink, damn it
is hot. I hope it isn’t hell.

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OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, August 19, 2009 at 6:34 pm Link to this comment

Dear She,

Yes, it was a good song, a beautiful message. I am overbold sometimes.


Dear Night-Gaunt:

You bear the attack so well. Your last post almost sounds as if you might be taking yourself a little less seriously. In which case you might win in the end. You are a good sport. Which only proves that we all have our saving graces.


Dear Leefeller,

I refuse to let the fearmongers have their way.  Obama raised an alarm that Healthcare was an emergency situation that had to be fixed immediately, and people got scared into a panicky rush to pass the legislation. But things have slowed down to a more deliberative pace. Perhaps if this had happened to the Iraq war, the Bank Bailout, and the Stimulus Package we wouldnt have so many regrets? And a whole heck of a lot more money to do something for healthcare.

My motto: “No more fear! Think before you act!”

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, August 19, 2009 at 5:46 pm Link to this comment

Hello Shenonymous one and all. Aren’t the Christians admonished to “walk the straight and narrow” in the Bible?

You and Ozark Michael have you fun with me. But then I don’t name everyone a Dominionist unlike OM who uses it as an anvil to drop on my head again and again with grotesque cartoonish straw man exaggerations. His use of it as a chiding mild attack to berate me for my sins as he sees them is just ammunition in his gun of rhetoric.

Wow my number of characters remaining is 34904000! Poor thing is striken. That and the bold went infinite!

Don’t expect health care to improve for most of us.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, August 19, 2009 at 5:05 pm Link to this comment

Is it possible the corporatist mentality has won again? We are doomed by opportunism and how it manifests and maintains itself, sort of a self perpetuating scourge, especially the medical insurance corporate mentality.

Everyone are almost everyone in life needs medical care or is it really an illusion, maybe the Christian Scientists are on the correct track, or is it the Jehovah Witnesses? 

If our nation consisted mostly of these religious sorts, what would the Medical Insurance opportunists be selling? Maybe another fear, one can always make money on fear, both parties seem to do well with it just the fear of change has brought the most ludicrous reasons why one should ignore ignorance, at least until they come for them.

Freting about the fear mongers does seem such a waste.

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By Shenonymous, August 19, 2009 at 2:43 pm Link to this comment

It is so easy to belittle something really beautiful when there is a lack of it in one’s
own self.  It is a lack of understanding of the beautiful.  Bob Dylan in no way you
attempt to shape him is Dominionist, that whacko invention of those with a
poverty of heart.  That man had insight that just would not stop and others are
envious, JewBoy that he is.  Just try to enjoy something without framing it within
the perennial Xian coffin.  Dylan was big enough to allow for a Christian
perspective, a beautiful one.  He even tried to be a Christian for a while then
found his Judaism suited his mind better.  He is no one’s brother!  He never
needed one.  Does it matter?  Are Christians so narrow minded?  Is their path so
narrow?

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By OzarkMichael, August 19, 2009 at 2:29 pm Link to this comment

Listening to Ring them Bells. Enjoyed it today.

Remembering what it meant to me back then. The album was I think “Slow Train” and the message at times was a bit conservative. he even had a little creationist song on that album.

Some might say Dylan went ‘Dominionist’. I know talk2action website wasnt around way back then, but NightGaunt could ask his mentors there what they thought of the things Dylan sang and said back in those days.

I dont think they will call it ‘revolutionary’. marthaA, you might be embracing Dylan as a brother when you should be sending him to hell with me.

Just sayin…

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By OzarkMichael, August 19, 2009 at 2:20 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA defends Obama’s choice of Af/Pak: It’s a PROCESS; when you got up this morning and went to the bathroom, did everything come out all right as a process?—- if it did for you, why would you expect otherwise for the process of running a nation?

Ah. So some people can be excused. Liberals yes, not conservatives. For you know Obama’s motive to be good, and you know mine to be evil. (But sister, only God knows what you claim to know, namely what people’s motives are)

As far as “PROCESS” is concerned, please recall that Obama has been talking about how important it was to escalate the war in Afghanistan for 2 years. His is not a process of getting out, but getting in.

His repeated critique of the war in Iraq was that it distracted us from the ‘real’ war in Afghanistan. He campaigned on that promise. If you dont remember I can find some quotes.

At a time when some “extremist sophist right wing Scrooge-types” like me were beginning to wonder about the whole affair, Obama promised to plunge in deeper.

So the PROCESS was not one of getting out of the war, but he promised instead to embrace it, widen it, and get into it more deeply. One of the few promises he has kept. More troops in Afghanistan to ‘do the job’, whatever that is.

MarthaA, with your judgmental attitude towards me, you had better be consistant and deny Obama the status of ‘brother’. Not that i would do that. But your stern judgemententalism should at least be consistant.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 19, 2009 at 1:10 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA where have you been these past 100+ days? Obama has much window dressing in what he says but what he does furthers the agenda of the reich-wing he is beholding to and the shadow gov’t that is eviscerating our republic from the inside-out.

You do seem to be a very rigid thinker. What works you keep to that message no matter what. No new information either. Rather mechanical and tiresome repetition. You do want people to read and then come to the same conclusions don’t you? You need creativity in your writing. I do believe even that great radical Thomas Paine was less mechanical than you. Just a friendly suggestion and you can take it or leave it as you will.

We have been out maneuvered and out spent by the wrong wing and their corporate backers. But then unlike us, they aren’t bothered by scruples and morality when they go for the throat and even kill to get their bottom dollar. It is hard to win against that kind of foe.

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By MarthaA, August 19, 2009 at 11:02 am Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

OzarkMichael said:  “All of this is Barack Obama’s own choice. His own project.”

MarthaA’s answer:  This a little base, but when you got up this morning and went to the bathroom to do your business, did it all happen in an instant?—- or, was it a process that took time?  How much greater do you think the time and process is to turn the course of a nation, than to do your morning’s business in the bathroom?

If you cannot even do your morning business in the bathroom in an “instant”, rather than as a process, why should anyone take your expectation that President Barack Obama change the course of the nation in an “instant”, rather than as a process?

It’s a PROCESS; when you got up this morning and went to the bathroom, did everything come out all right as a process?—- if it did for you, why would you expect otherwise for the process of running a nation?

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By Night-Gaunt, August 19, 2009 at 10:31 am Link to this comment

“How do you think a CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST will ever get through the eye of a needle, even though he/she says he/she is a Christian? Right now, Robert Novak is having to account for his sins against humanity. Maybe Jesus will have mercy on him, because Jesus’ mercy does endure forever, I expect he is doing considerable groveling at this time, if he hasn’t already been sucked away like in the movie “Ghost”.”MarthaA

Isn’t it the “rich man” through the eye of that metaphoric needle? Also as I read is it not till the Judgment Day that we will all be “taken to account” for our sins and good deeds? So he is mouldering in the grave till that time as is everyone as that mythos goes.

Ozark Michael I am shocked that you give Obama a pass on his hands bloodied with innocents as he carries on the war against some people in Pakistan-Iraq-Afghanistan mainly using long distance controlled robots to kill with the appropriately named Hellfire missiles. Must he actually be there mowing them down in order for him to be guilty? So it is the majesty and power of his position protects him like a holy golden mantle from being a murderer? No one should be so protected.

I wonder how the Teaparty patriots would like if Liberals and Progressives and Anarchists came to the party armed with weapons & provocative signs that referenced both parties and the tar an feathering that awaited them for their corruption would do? Also hanging in effigy the Repubs and Dems who are against single payer health care. Maybe they should. But there is a risk of someone losing their control and starting a shooting war which wouldn’t be good for anyone.

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By MarthaA, August 19, 2009 at 10:19 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

I liked the Bob Dylan song with the words, which are wonderful, revolutionary and appreciated, especially at this time.

Thank you, thank you. Thank you very much.

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By MarthaA, August 19, 2009 at 8:57 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Gouldner gives insight into the process that language plays with regard to the NEW CLASS (Nearly Nobles) displacing the OLD CLASS (Nobles) by way of “cultural capital” displacing “moneyed capital”.  The Culture of Critical Discourse is the language of the NEW CLASS (Nearly Nobles), the language that the NEW CLASS (Nearly Nobles) uses to maintain POWER and CONTROL over the OLD CLASS (Nobles) and the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION; the reason why it is important is that the Culture of Critical Discourse as the language of the NEW CLASS (Nearly Nobles) is a language that is integral to “cultural capital” as the means that the NEW CLASS (Nearly Nobles) uses to compete with the OLD CLASS (Nobles) and to rule over the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION.  There is no Right-Wing sophistry and propaganda in Gouldner, but you may come to understand from Gouldner’s work that there is a nexus between the Nobles and the Nearly Nobles that enables the Right-Wing Shock-Troops.

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By OzarkMichael, August 19, 2009 at 6:20 am Link to this comment

MarthaA said: Don’t you think that when Right-Wing EXTREMISTS and their minions are telling the Lord: ‘Lord, Lord, I killed all those Iraqi’s, Afghans, and Pakistanis in your name

A sad fact comes into view. Barack Obama not only continues the war in Afghanistan, but he does so with even more vigour tham Bush. The spreading of war and subsequent destabilization of Pakistan accelerates under Obama. What this will lead to could be something so awful i dont even want to guess. All of this is Barack Obama’s own choice. His own project.

In my opinion Obama is not evil. He is just making a mistake. Your judgements are quite a bit more harsh than mine. You must banish Obama from being your brother. But i that your very harsh judgment against me won’t be applied to him.

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By Shenonymous, August 18, 2009 at 10:50 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA I thought you might enjoy this. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0HQUy-eSrc
The lyrics also.  You might find yourself among them.
Ring Them Bells
Ring them bells, ye heathen
From the city that dreams,
Ring them bells from the sanctuaries
Cross the valleys and streams,
For they’re deep and they’re wide
And the world’s on its side
And time is running backwards
And so is the bride.

Ring them bells St. Peter
Where the four winds blow,
Ring them bells with an iron hand
So the people will know.
Oh it’s rush hour now
On the wheel and the plow
And the sun is going down
Upon the sacred cow.

Ring them bells Sweet Martha,
For the poor man’s son,
Ring them bells so the world will know
That God is one.
Oh the shepherd is asleep
Where the willows weep
And the mountains are filled
With lost sheep.

Ring them bells for the blind and the deaf,
Ring them bells for all of us who are left,
Ring them bells for the chosen few
Who will judge the many when the game is through.
Ring them bells, for the time that flies,
For the child that cries
When innocence dies.

Ring them bells St. Catherine
From the top of the room,
Ring them from the fortress
For the lilies that bloom.
Oh the lines are long
And the fighting is strong
And they’re breaking down the distance
Between right and wrong.

Currently I’m reading Gouldner’s Anti-Minotaur: the Myth of a Value-Free Sociology.  I naturally gravitated to that essay because the Minotaur was part of my graduate work and the allegorical figure continues to represent much of what I think about mankind. I have also downloaded the University of Chicago description of sociology (about 25 pages) and think before I get into Gouldner I need to understand what sociology is first.  What I know of sociology I’ve absorbed here and there as I didn’t take it in college.  So I’ve interrupted reading Gouldner for the moment.  Do you think I might find there some insight into why the R-W Shock Troop are doing CA’s dirty work?  It is a social action.

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By MarthaA, August 18, 2009 at 1:20 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

OzarkMichael said:  “There is a tendency in all of us to demonize political opponents.” 

MarthaA’s answer:  Maybe in YOU and the Right-Winger Scrooge-type CONSERVATIVE Christians for power and control, but that spirit is NOT in their Leftist opponents, as all the Left has to do is tell the truth, there is no need to lie.  Right-Wing sophist propaganda should NOT be a part of any Christian’s politics, if it has to be, the Christian is on the wrong side of the political spectrum.

The Left, the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION, may not appear as refined as the CONSERVATIVE Christians, but I would stake my life on their spirits being truer to the love of God via Jesus than any of their CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST political opponents.

A CONSERVATIVE Christian sophist-propagandist is strange, the only way a sophist-propagandist could be accepted as a brother/sister in Christianity is if they REPENT.  Are you going to REPENT, Michael?  Because you’re going the wrong way, for a Christian.

How do you think a CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST will ever get through the eye of a needle, even though he/she says he/she is a Christian? Right now, Robert Novak is having to account for his sins against humanity. Maybe Jesus will have mercy on him, because Jesus’ mercy does endure forever, I expect he is doing considerable groveling at this time, if he hasn’t already been sucked away like in the movie “Ghost”.

Don’t you think that when Right-Wing EXTREMISTS and their minions are telling the Lord: ‘Lord, Lord, I killed all those Iraqi’s, Afghans, and Pakistanis in your name, and I stole all their country’s and my country’s money in your name, because I had to help you Lord,’  that they just might be the ones that the Lord will tell, “Go away, I never knew you.” Don’t you think CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST Christians will be accepted in the same manner as Satan?  Do you think?

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By Shenonymous, August 18, 2009 at 9:21 am Link to this comment

Good morning MarthaA.  Just wanted you to know I have downloaded a few articles by and about Alvin W. Gouldner.  As a sociologist I find his thinking interesting enough that I will pursue trying to understand it.  I actually have about 25 articles by and about him downloadable through my institution of higher education.  I read the encyclopedic entry but it was much too abbreviated.  So I went looking at the University Library. And a treasure trove was provided.  So along with the animated interest in Sisyphus et al, my reading life is being kept very busy.  Besides making comments on the way too many TD forums.  Gad I get myself into such trouble.  Were that I could keep my mouth (via my computer keyboard fingers) shut!  Guess I’m not able, it is a family teaching.

Just know that even if it is not soon, I will get around to those provocative questons.  You do already know a bunch about how I feel concerning socialism and capitalism, democracy and tyranny.  Democrats vs autocrats vs theocrats.  So all that Gouldner will do is to sharpen those views, I hope.

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By Leefeller, August 18, 2009 at 6:44 am Link to this comment

“I have just learned from irreputable, inside WH sources that Obama is going to re-issue the single payer initiative this Fall after his vacation”

Night Gant, me thinks sarcasm is in play, sometimes it does not seem such. “irreputable”, irrefutable, irrevocable, irreparable, which is it Garth?

It may all come out in the wash, greed will win over compassion and morality again.

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By OzarkMichael, August 18, 2009 at 6:03 am Link to this comment

MarthaA states: If you are a true Christian, then you are my brother, but you are also Obama’s brother, and you have been preaching fear on this blog, even bragged that you had forced Obama to close one of his sites making it more difficult for him to hear from the people.

If you try to flag someone, the return message directs you to a new website, where Obama asks for your questions and concerns. So communication is not difficult. Full communication between Obama and the people is open, I am glad of it. The change is a simple one, Obama isnt asking people to snitch anymore. Its a change for the better.

So all ended well, and I helped in a small way.  Why dont you congratulate me when i help make things better for everyone? Why dont you rejoice when things improve?

True, you were no help whatsoever to me in this cause. But i dont think you are a bad person. You just dont understand, and i suspect you still dont understand. I will take some blame for that, but not all of it.

There is a tendency in all of us to demonize political opponents. Be aware of your own subjectivity.

Step back and take a breath.

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By MarthaA, August 17, 2009 at 11:07 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

Christians are known by their fruit.  I can’t judge that you are my brother because Obama is my brother and you put my brother down.  There is a spirit of deceit I feel from your posts.  If you are a true Christian, then you are my brother, but you are also Obama’s brother, and you have been preaching fear on this blog, even bragged that you had forced Obama to close one of his sites making it more difficult for him to hear from the people.  If you are mine and Obama’s brother in Christ, you will quit trying to destroy what Obama is trying to do for the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION.  If you are my brother in Christ, you are a far too fearful deceived brother that works to protect the capitalist corporations profits against the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION and corporations are not responsible to Christ. You need to REPENT.

When someone does something that really is good they don’t have to toot their own horn, but you are tooting your horn all the time, another sign that you are more than likely not my brother. I will rely on the Spirit to lead me, right now I do not accept you as my brother at all.

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By OzarkMichael, August 17, 2009 at 7:51 pm Link to this comment

Martha, you are a Cookie Monster!

So there!

Contrary to your statement I am very effective. I helped the Whitehouse realize that flagging of dissent is wrong. I didnt yell and scream or disrupt anything, unlike Code Pink. It was just some thoughtfulness that prevailed.

This is the second time the Obama administration corrected a mistake that I complained about, both of which would have really hurt the country in the long run no matter who was President. I am happy. I think of Obama and I have a little hope. It seems to me that the bad things he does are accidental.

I am happy today. I like Obama a little more, and I am happiest when I like people. How about you, Martha?

It is very constructive to preserve free speech. So thank me, Martha, because free speech is a good thing for your future when you want to speak out against the next President.

You will need free speech rights. I want you to have them. I will stick up for your rights even though you abuse me every day. Count on it.

You know, Martha, i believed you when you said you are a Christian, and my reply was quite welcoming to you as a sister. Your response was an outburst of capital letters and false accusations and you disowned me.

I remain your brother, I would not disown you for the world. I would rather be separated from Christ myself than separate you from Christ. That is not irony but the sort of thing that can only come straight from the heart.

What would you need from me to make it easier for you to simply disagree about politics instead of disowning me? To disagree with me instead of pulling out Mein Kampf and trying to brand me with it?

Maybe a cookie would help?

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By Night-Gaunt, August 17, 2009 at 7:20 pm Link to this comment

We live in a meritocracy where the merit is weighed by your family name, your bank account, your religion, your need to get ahead and to use others to do so. In a word psychopathic world. Where the unscrupulous and cold manipulators of wealth and power is the height of social responsibility. Where the strongest bully survives at the top of the heap. No Christian charity there unless it is a front for something else.

You find it everywhere in business especially in corporations. Most unhealthy and it is in our military and foreign policy too.

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By MarthaA, August 17, 2009 at 6:23 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

You’re a troll, and all trolls are is theatrical irony, destructive without constructive purpose.

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By OzarkMichael, August 17, 2009 at 5:25 pm Link to this comment

Wow, irony is the method of communication now.

Yet for a moment I will be direct. The Whitehouse flag website doesnt work anymore. Obama shut it down and kudos to him for doing the right thing.

As we wave it bye-bye, I will speak directly a little bit more and confess that i never really flagged garth, it was only theatrical irony. I suspect he knew that.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 17, 2009 at 12:39 pm Link to this comment

Please excuse me Garth if your scenario sounds false to me. It sounds totally contrary to what Obama has been doing. The ‘gov’t option’ was a weak bit of chum for us to yearn for as the corporations got and kept their tons of flesh.

Was he lying then when he said that Single Payer was not possible now? He has shown he can’t be trusted over and over again. He is making sure that whatever the investigations are concerning torture was so weakened and restricted as to be all but useless show. His own former physician calls for a single payer system and that all of the offerings of congress et al are bad legislation and should be defeated.

I’m from Missouri—-show me.

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By garth, August 17, 2009 at 10:07 am Link to this comment

I have just learned from irreputable, inside WH sources that Obama is going to re-issue the single payer initiative this Fall after his vacation,  Also he is going encourage Eric Holder to open and expand the investigation into the “torture controversy” in the Bush Administration.  He’s going to let the facts lead the way.
Obama is not going to go down as just the first black President.  He wants to be more than just titular head.

Obama is a counter-puncher.  He’ll withdraw and confide.  Then in the Fall, when everyone is renewed for the fight, when all the lies have been laid bare, he will introduce the only real solution:  a national single payer health insurance.  And with it he’ll declare an end to the wars in Iraq and Af-Pak, and a complete reversal of the Wall Street buyout.
We can all cheer for the new Hope, Barack Obama.
Can we ask for more from a Black African instead of a Black American? I don’t think so.  This guy is dyed in the wool.
Even G. W. Bush offered free health insurance to the Iraqis in 2003.  (Well, on second thought, look what that led to.)
Hey, don’t get me wrong, I am for the health insurance companies and PHRMA getting millions of dollars off the cadavers of the uninsured, underinsured and those who turn out to be too risky or too expensive to insured.  In the words of a receptionist, “They have their standards.”

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By Shenonymous, August 17, 2009 at 7:36 am Link to this comment

Oh crap, that f’n end italics.  Soooo sorry, I am such a clutz sometimes.  (No commentary needed on that one!)  I am reposting so everything formatwise gets straigtened up.  Oh well, it could be repeated anyway,... for emphasis.

It is so sad that there is the maxim:
It takes a _________ to know a _________.  Fill in the blanks with the word Fascist.  Mysteriously it works every time.

MarthaA, you must be very young…“for the past forty (40) years”, that only takes history back to the 60s???  The ultra-conservative impulse was there long before Barry Goldwater.  The land-owner and merchant elites in England wanted to protect their “vested” and unconditional interests regardless of whose sweat produced them.  Loyalists in the Colonies had strong ties to this elite.  And following the Revolution, approximately 100,000 loyalists fled the United States, although a great majority remained in America giving a genealogy to the conservative faction here.  It didn’t really have anything to do with religion, or religious freedom.  That association is a much later and modern conjunction when it became propitious for conservative (scraped out of a pathetically empty conservative reality by the likes of Newt Gingrich and Pat Robinson, et al) to find anything, any miserable morsel, on which to hang their self-serving interests.

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By Shenonymous, August 17, 2009 at 7:33 am Link to this comment

It is so sad that there is the maxim:
It takes a _________ to know a _________.  Fill in the blanks with the word Fascist.  Mysteriously it works every time.

MarthaA, you must be very young…“for the past forty (40) years”, that only takes history back to the 60s???  The ultra-conservative impulse was there long before Barry Goldwater.  The land-owner and merchant elites in England wanted to protect their “vested” and unconditional interests regardless of whose sweat produced them.  Loyalists in the Colonies had strong ties to this elite.  And following the Revolution, approximately 100,000 loyalists fled the United States, although a great majority remained in America giving a genealogy to the conservative faction here.  It didn’t really have anything to do with religion, or religious freedom.  That association is a much later and modern conjunction when it became propitious for conservatives (scraped out of a pathetically empty conservative reality by the likes of Newt Gingrich and Pat Robinson, et al) to find anything, any miserable morsel, on which to hang their self-serving interests.  They shrewdly perceived religion would be their chariot to take America to hell.

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By MarthaA, August 15, 2009 at 4:44 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

OzarkMichael said to PhreedomPhan:  “I was reminding MarthaA of her Mein Kampf scenario, where Hitler’s meetings were interrupted by protestors, so he used that as an excuse to call in THUGS. Martha wanted to say that conservatives are following Hitler in the town hall meetings. Unfortunately for her the example doesnt quite fit, in fact she accidently casts Obama as Hitler.”

MarthaA’s answer:  This is YOUR subjective sociopathic sophist propagandistic Republican FRAME of what I said, NOT what I said.  YOU cast Obama as Hitler and said that it was me, which is exactly what Hitler did; YOU speak for YOURSELF, not MarthaA. 

OzarkMichael said to PhreedomPhan:  “My post’s motif was Martha’s raging accusation of myself as a fascist, her rants in this and especially a past thread (which you participated in) She accused conservatives of being Hitlerian THUGS, etc etc etc etc etc etc. All hateful, all in capital letters. Remember?”

MarthaA’s answer:  Some more of YOUR sociopathic sophist Republican propaganda FRAMING.  Speak for YOURSELF, not MarthaA.  Do you deny that you are following “Mein Kampf” by Adolph Hitler as a Republican Party Play Book?  And, if so, how do you account for the same tactics that Adolph Hitler outlined in “Mein Kampf” being used as political policy and tactics of the Republican Party? 

RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMISTS REPUBLICANS are using “MeinKampf” by Adolph Hitler as a political hand book and no degree of light hearted Greek mythology will change the fact that this is the case, and that the Right-Wingers are using Hitler’s disruptive tactics on a National Scale and have been doing so from Goldwater, to Reagan, Bush I, Bush II and into the present to accuse, condemn, denounce and in the end kill the liberals that they have villified; this type of political activity by RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN ORGANIZED SOCIOPATHIC POLITICAL SOPHIST PROPAGANDA is contrary to the National interests of the United States as a nation, and no degree of light hearted drivel about Greek Mythology will change what has been done by the ORGANIZED SOCIOPATHIC POLITICAL SOPHIST PROPAGANDA of the RIGHT-WING EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS of the Republican Party for the past forty years; the fact that they are still at it and the fact that this type of dehumanizing activity that is a process of accuse, condemn, denounce and kill must be CRIMINALIZED before it degenerates democracy in the United States into the same type of FASCISM as existed in Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy and leads to the same result as in World War II.

Again, RIGHT-WING SOCIOPATHIC CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS have a forty (40) year history of accusing, condemning and denouncing Liberals and the Left, these were the tactics used by Adolph Hitler to execute the “final solution”.

Do you, OzarkMichael, deny that RIGHT-WING SOCIOPATHIC CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS have been using DEHUMANIZING ORGANIZED SOCIOPATHIC POLITICAL SOPHIST PROPAGANDA against Liberals and the Left to accuse, condemn, denounce and set the Left up for the “final solution”,  for the past forty (40) years and that the “final solution” for the use of this type of deceitful sociopathic sophist propaganda will result as it did with Hitler and the “final solution” with the killing of the Liberals and everyone that is a part of the Left?

This type of DEHUMANIZING SOCIOPATHIC POLITICAL SOPHIST PROPAGANDA FRAMING that YOU have used to FRAME me is the SAME as the RIGHT-WING SOCIOPATHIC CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS are using and have used for the past forty years against Liberals and the Left; if this does not label you as a FASCIST, then what is it that YOU determine a FASCIST to be?

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By MarthaA, August 15, 2009 at 4:39 pm Link to this comment

PhreedomPhan,

MarthaA Said to PhreedomPhan:  “The answer is to make organized illegitimate political sophist activity and political propaganda, on the level of “Neo Brown Shirt Disrupters,” that if left unchecked is harmful to the National Security, a treasonable offense that is not excused by individual freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech for an individual is not the same as “organized political disrupters” provoking intentionally to evoke a causal response to subjective assertions in order to obtain political benefit; this type of political sophistry is harmful to the National Security of the United States, and this type of political sophist activity must be criminalized as a STANDARD for all organized political activity in the United States; it is in the best interest of all of the citizens of the United States to do so.  Do you agree with this as a solution that is in the best interest of the nation as a whole? Or, do you disagree?  If you disagree, please give your reasons for your disagreement.

PhreedomPhan’s Answer: “I thought concern with National Security and desire to put everyone who dissents in prison was supposed to be a Bush “Fascist” thing.”

MarthaA Said: “We are talking about ORGANIZED SOPHIST POLITICAL PROPAGANDA when YOU know full well that everything YOU say is an intentional misrepresentation contrary to the National interests.”

“Apparently you agree that everything YOU say is contrary to the National interest.”

PhreedomPhan Answer:  “No, Martha!  Everything I say is contrary to the interests of the globalist money monarchs whose boots you lick.”

MarthaA’s Answer to PhreedomPhan: If you don’t agree, then why are YOU subjectively asserting a new subject to get off the subject of National Security and what organized sociopathic subjective political conservative right-wing sophist propaganda is doing to undermine National Security and the need for a political STANDARD; that is still the question. Why did YOU not answer my question? I would appreciate a REAL answer to this question as ORGANIZED SOCIOPATHIC RIGHT-WING POLITICAL CONSERVATIVE SOPHIST PROPAGANDA is getting to be a National Security issue in the United States.

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By jayson harsin, August 15, 2009 at 1:46 am Link to this comment

The key to this is partly interlocking alliances but also a new media culture where it is difficult to know what is really going on. Two Words: Rumor Bomb.  One could start with the Pew Center on The People and the Press, where it looks like many people choose news sources based on trust and political beliefs. But it is an exaggeration to suggest that all or even the majority of U.S. citizens are like this. Indeed, the current mediation of these townhall meetings is a function of the same problem; these disrupters appear to be a vocal minority. When they are foisted on the news agenda for their spectacular/tabloid quality (they piss some people off and are a point of deep emotional identification for others) but are not framed as being an uncivil, anti-democratic (because disrespecting of civil debate) minority, they start to look normal, even seriously majoritarian. But the current cultural fallout over healthcare reform shows deep American cultural conflicts. Even pointing this out, and insisting on an ethic of civil/respectful debate will be re-spun by some as mere “liberal” rhetoric. When we reach this stage of affairs, is there really a democracy left? All social instutions are to blame for these cultural tendencies: schools, religion, family, and especially the cutthroat market media, in crisis due to the internet (sites and comments like…this). Why? Factchecking, challenging deliberately or stupidly slippery language, reporting both sides (or as many as possible)–all this has gone down the drain due to time/speed, fewer financial resources to keep up, and pressures for attention which lead to printing and showing anything that will sustain attention, piss people off, etc. This is the era of THE RUMOR BOMB.
Well-documented and discussed here: http://flowtv.org/?p=2259

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By Night-Gaunt, August 14, 2009 at 11:59 am Link to this comment

However you must remember that Sisyphis was being punished so he couldn’t just walk away. Neither can we no matter what we dream of.

All the world may be a stage but the death scenes are real.

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By Shenonymous, August 14, 2009 at 11:57 am Link to this comment

Ya, OM  Youse is a Quick-Shot-to-the-White-House artist!  Love it.  The others are slow to learn.  The chair in the participating-whether-they-like-it-or-not audience has a hot seat.  Once one steps in the River Styx, one cannot withdraw.  Well… maybe it can be done.  Sort of like a Pirandello.  Remember him?

Ya, I gotta go too.  Be seeing ya.

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By OzarkMichael, August 14, 2009 at 11:50 am Link to this comment

Shall we play a bit more? Except I am not one of the players, just an interested observer.

In this great play of Life we are all on the stage. We have our entrances and our exists, but we never can sit in the audience.

We can imagine ourselves to be in the audience, but at that instant our chair becomes a prop, becomes part of the show, part of the stage, and the one real Observer receded a bit further from us.

You were right, Shenonymous, when you said that Sisyphus could never disengage himself from the Rock.


So much needs to be done in real life: the rock “has just rolled down the hill” as it were, so I might not post for 2 days or so.

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By OzarkMichael, August 14, 2009 at 11:27 am Link to this comment

garth said: Obama sold out to PHRMA.

Obama sold out to PHRMA? Thats an accusation against the Healthcare plan! It is probably the conservative disinformation machine at work.

Obama wants to know.

I took a screenshot of garth’s post, including the name, date and time.

Sending it to .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) right now….

Done.

I feel empowered. I feel am helping a cause greater than myself by stopping the bad guys. If garth’s real name and address is on the email, or blog, or conversation, thats too bad for him.

Normally garth would not be notified that this happened. Obama is not dumb enough to tell us everything he knows about the bad guys. But just this one time I will let the secret out:

garth, you have been flagged.

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By Shenonymous, August 14, 2009 at 11:21 am Link to this comment

Shall we play a bit more? Except I am not one of the players, just an interested observer.

The Theater is worth the ticket to the performance…

What is fascinating here but seemingly being missed by some of the main players is the artful tactic of mea culpa.  In this case, it is confessing to being a composite Nazi Fascist Dominionist (NFD for short).  The chicanery is because of the often stupidly volleyed implication, due to an earnest, though impassioned, admittance of holding conservative principles (this is not allowed in a democracy), one of the actors has been called an NFD.  Now there is no better offense than to use any negative that an opponent levies and turn it into a positively disarming reduction of threat.  Game means being able to see the dynamics and be able to react appropriately.

To level the playing field of unequals… two suggestions:
If you are going to play a game, you would do well to do three things:

2. learn the rules
3. learn game theory

and number 1 is to know what game you are playing!

Furthermore, there needs to be care taken that the talk about the White House’s “Call-In” program is a calculated distraction.  Let me give a simile:
If you were to use a cross-bow to attack an opponent, to have better accuracy of hitting your mark, particularly if you didn’t want to kill him/her, only wound, perhaps because there is a moral belief that killing is wrong, you would have to be very close to your quarry.  But you would still have to be stealthy so that you would not be discovered, especially if you are alone in the woods.  Your opponent has better weapons and might have better skill in using them, and most importantly, your opponent is a contingency corps.

Time for other things in life!  See ya later says Biff Bam.

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By OzarkMichael, August 14, 2009 at 10:30 am Link to this comment

My comment: “And now Obama wants to intimidate dissent by collecting a secret government database.”

Outraged comments: The elephant in the room here is… if it is so secret how is it that YOU know about it?

You can see it for yourself at the Whitehouse government website(our tax dollars are work):

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/

here is an excerpt(bold print is mine):

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care.  These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation.  Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address).

The word ‘secret’ applies to the fact that the White House will not notify people if their names are turned in, nor will they erase the names that they recieve. Nor will they hand the information that they are collecting to anyone. Nor will they allow oversight. It is very much a secret.

In another sense it is public. The Obama White House publically told his supporters to flag emails, internet chats, blogs, and casual conversation over coffee. 

Since its for Healthcare you shouldnt mind a little shady tactic to get it done. Just tell yourself that government would never do anything bad with those names.

Kept as a secret database. Indefinitely. Without notification. Without allowing investigation or oversight. But hey, its Obama, and he is a Leftist. a good guy. What could go wrong?

And if something does go wrong, it wont be YOU that gets the shaft. It will be the bad guys, the Un-Americans, the disruptive, the dissenters, the Dominionists, etc.

Outraged asked: And if you disagree with this supposed “secret government database”, why is it YOU, at least have claimed, to have “flagged” others?

You always knew that I was fascist, so why are you surprised that I would cooperate when the Obama administration intimidates people and threatens free speech? I mean, this is like a dream for me.

Answer Obama’s call.

Flag dissent.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 14, 2009 at 9:34 am Link to this comment

I picture Sysifis in the Garden of Tantalus. Tantalus’ garden was a mirage. A fake, and illusion of the most harmonious and gratuitous beauty and all to fit you mind’s perception. However every scrumptious looking fruit and glittering clear sweet water was a lie. [See also the false appearance of the Sideah’s places.] So the longer you were there the more you came closer to starving to death.

Because of our ability to create things in our minds it allows us to lie and to imagine many things. With the problem of confabulation we can sometimes confuse what is real and what isn’t.

That is our danger. There are those who have a way of looking at the world and they conform their information sources to reflect that even if it is wrong. They dominate said sources so unless you spend a great deal of time searching you are left with their biased points. That is our problem.

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By Shenonymous, August 14, 2009 at 8:50 am Link to this comment

In a chapter entitled Laborless Deliverance, of the book, The Science of Ascension:  A Study of Our Being, author, Lillian De Waters, , refers to a Jesus prophesy about a vision “greater even than raising the dead,...” after a certain amount of time has passed (left ambiguous, no doubt for obvious reasons).  She asks if the vision would not end sin and sickness eclipse any vision of healing?  And wouldn’t the release from the fetters of death transcend Lazarus, who, it has been narrated, was raised from the dead?  She hypothesizes that Jesus exercised a “science” that helped him to help and bless others on their plane of experience (also left undefined), but elevated himself into a realm, or state, of consciousness called ascension.  It is a way of being, Being that is, where pristine immortality and rising above glory, is found.  This is such a lovely sentiment.  It is in this “laborless way,” that the illusion of vulgar life, raw life as it is lived by human Beings, is escaped.  As a propaedeutic for health, using an algorithm of moral choices, this is without a doubt in mythical proportion an excellent apologue.  As an illustration, it is an exercise in the value and reward of developing consciousness, that is in De Waters’ words, an ascension of consciousness.  The arising is not one of the dead such as Lazarus, but for the living to rise above his base earthly condition. 

I think it is a critical feature of this story that Jesus elevates himself so easily but others must be confined to the unascensional vagaries of earthly life?  Seems like this is a moral fable to extract whatever lesson is learnable.

Again, this is appears to be such a graceful story.  But I caution it is too easy to be seduced by self-fulfilling stories and come to be persuaded by that self-fulfillment that they hold the same existential position as a truth-telling account.  It is an eternal quest to find palliative, or remedy, for utter fear of living life as it is with all its ugliness, and poverty of spirit.  Self-reliance, in the spirit of Emerson, would make one’s life to live worthwhile. 

Not forgetting we have been on opposite shores for a very long time OzarkMichael, thank you for being as perceptive as you are.  I do not agree with many of the sentiments leveled at you, specifically to conservatives in general, and even though I place myself in squarely in a liberal circle, I do not subscribe to the notion that all conservatives represent a fascist current.  An element of fascism appears to exists in both Rightist and Leftist camps.  It is an irrational and misanthropic house to live in.

Yes, of course, PhreedomPhan, it is paradox.  At least in your closed-system of beliefs you are able to recognize that!

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By PhreedomPhan, August 14, 2009 at 8:22 am Link to this comment

Fenwick, isn’t that what’s called a Paradox?  I remember that I once believe it impossible for the finite mind of man to think of anything that’s impossible in this infinite universe of time and space.  Then I realized that was a Paradox.  If true, then I had just thought of something impossible so it couldn’t be true.  I’ve since changed that to highly unlikely that the finite mind of man can think of something that’s impossible.  Some say that nothing is impossible, but then they never tried gargling with peanut butter.

Rick
http://PhreedomPhan-lostliberty.blogspot.com
http://phreedomphan-americasenemies.blogspot.com

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By OzarkMichael, August 14, 2009 at 5:28 am Link to this comment

The post on Sisyphus by Shenonymous, August 13 at 6:47 pm was the best post on Truthdig that I have read in a year.

It applies to everyone at all times, including now as we wrestle with misunderstandings and difficult issues.

It is gentle in its subjectivity, rising from her inner reflection to what some might call an obejectivity, and then offering an inner reflection to any and all who would be subjective, ie be a real human being.

It is timely. It is artful. It was in the moment, so its truth should not be neglected by trying to figure out if Glen Beck ever said something similar. 

Its truth should not be ignored by trying to catagorize Shenonymous politically or religiously as a preliminary check point, as if that data is the prerequisite to one’s own inner reflection.

The meaning is there from one human being to another. Take it or leave it.

I only bow to her and say, “Thank you, you have bettered(and bested!) me today.”

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By PhreedomPhan, August 13, 2009 at 10:57 pm Link to this comment

No, Martha!  Everything I say is contrary to the interests of the globalist money monarchs whose boots you lick.

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By MarthaA, August 13, 2009 at 9:52 pm Link to this comment

PhreedomPhan,

“We are talking about ORGANIZED SOPHIST POLITICAL PROPAGANDA when YOU know full well that everything YOU say is an intentional misrepresentation contrary to the National interests.”

Apparently you agree that everything YOU say is contrary to the National interest.

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By PhreedomPhan, August 13, 2009 at 9:38 pm Link to this comment

->PhreedomPhan,

Rise or fall on your own merit or a lack thereof.<-MarthaA

Hey, Martha!  What are you trying to do, confuse me?  In most of your posts you sound like a Communist or Fascist.  In this one you are very Libertarian.  Do you have multiple personality disorder?

Rick

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By Outraged, August 13, 2009 at 9:38 pm Link to this comment

Re: OzarkMichael

Your comment: “And now Obama wants to intimidate dissent by collecting a secret government database.”

The elephant in the room here is… if it is so secret how is it that YOU know about it?  And if you disagree with this supposed “secret government database”, why is it YOU, at least have claimed, to have “flagged” others?

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By Night-Gaunt, August 13, 2009 at 9:34 pm Link to this comment

Yes Ozark Michael, unverified. I don’t count cluster Fox for fully accurate information. Especially when it fits their scenario so well.

Just don’t start using your words to say what I “said” concerning you. I believe I have a good enough command of the English language to know when I used hyperbole on you. No reference to roboticism or a close contact with Glenn Beck. I watch him the same as you do on TV, only I watch others as well and listen on the radio. And read also.

Don’t you use a spectrum of sources in order to have a more rounded view of things? Doesn’t everybody?

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By MarthaA, August 13, 2009 at 9:06 pm Link to this comment

PhreedomPhan,

Rise or fall on your own merit or a lack thereof.

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By PhreedomPhan, August 13, 2009 at 5:51 pm Link to this comment

->We are talking about ORGANIZED SOPHIST POLITICAL PROPAGANDA when YOU know full well that everything YOU say is an intentional misrepresentation contrary to the National interests. <-MarthaA

Tell me, Martha.  When you and your Red Brigade thugs have me arrested for treason, will I be charged based on what I said or on what you said I said?

You remind me of Clinton’s Attorney General Ilse Koch.

Rick
http://PhreedomPhan-lostliberty.blogspot.com
http://phreedomphan-americasenemies.blogspot.com

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By Shenonymous, August 13, 2009 at 3:47 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael says “...he walked away and did something else.”  But I… I have a different story…

Like She, he, Sisyphus was prone to levity, which pissed off the gods.  He was a bloody thief, way…ell, he didn’t steal blood, but he did steal the gods secrets, betraying to humanity certain divine secrets that he heard at the dinner table with them, and also stole nectar and ambrosia, the food of the gods, which confers immortality…  And he held his favor for ransom (he knew of the abduction by Zeus of some graybeard’s daughter, then was going to fess up to the girl’s daddy.  This really cheesed-off Zeus who punished impudent Sisyphus for this in the underworld. 

He is the absurd hero…who eventually earned him “that unspeakable penalty” whereby his entire Being was exerted forever toward accomplishing… zilch.  Nada.  That was the price paid for the passions of this earth.  Not much is known about his time in Hades, but then myths are made for the imagination to invent new life into them.  We see Sisyphus’s eternal striving with His Rock, with his entire Being straining to push The Rock of His Audacious Sins, His Olympian Rebuke, up the Slope of Scorn, to watch his face twist and wrench from exertion as he struggles, one shoulder bracing the massive granite, his foot digging desperately into the dirt, and upon achieving the height, watch with that sinking feeling His Rock rush down the slope knowing all the while he will have to push it up once more, over and over, more than countless hundreds of times never to end so that over time his face became like the stone, fixed and set in a resolve that will never know cessation. 

Some end the story where he walks away.  But in mine, no, he does not walk away, for if he did, his fate would be worse.  The rock would be assigned to his head!  The tragedy is that he knows, he is tragicomically aware of the endless torment.  He is aware that with each and every step up the Slope of Eternal Return, success is forbidden.  Such is the existential sorrow for the Rebel Who Lost His Cause.

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By OzarkMichael, August 13, 2009 at 2:31 pm Link to this comment

Night Gaunt complains: Now that is an unverified point of view pushed by the reich-wing….

Unverified? sounds fishy to me. Better flag it for the Whitehouse. Hooray for the New OBJECTIVE Freedom that the Left brings to us!

Shenonymous: But like Sisyphus, we must keep trying, it is in our genes.

After awhile Sisyphus got tired of rolling the same rock up the same hill, only to have it roll back down. After the 1000th time, he walked away and did something else.

MarthaA explains: From the vantage point of the “being of our being”, the “being of our being” perceives our body as our being and the “being of our being” uses “cause and effect” as feed back to confirm or deny the assumptions made by the “being of our being”; should we do less for all of the external world around us?——the standard that exists between the “being of our being” and “the being of our body” seems a reasonable standard to apply to the greater external cosmos beyond the “being of our body”; do you agree or disagree?

Uhhh… the answer is either “marshmellow” or “duck”.

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By OzarkMichael, August 13, 2009 at 2:08 pm Link to this comment

Night Gaunt speaks of such as myself: who hates the unions and calls them “thugs” every chance they get

Night Gaunt, please use capital letters when you say THUGS. 

I was reminding MarthaA of her Mein Kampf scenario, where Hitler’s meetings were interrupted by protestors, so he used that as an excuse to call in THUGS. Martha wanted to say that conservatives are following Hitler in the town hall meetings. Unfortunately for her the example doesnt quite fit, in fact she accidently casts Obama as Hitler.

My post’s motif was Martha’s raging accusation of myself as a fascist, her rants in this and especially a past thread (which you participated in) She accused conservatives of being Hitlerian THUGS, etc etc etc etc etc etc. All hateful, all in capital letters. Remember?

You accuse me of being a robot of talk radio. This is the repeated accusation from Leftists, and it your 3rd or 4th round of it.

So yes, I called Glen Beck on the phone and reported to him what MarthaA was saying, and then he called me back and told me what to type.

You will no doubt accuse me of “lying” again.

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By Shenonymous, August 13, 2009 at 2:05 pm Link to this comment

Everything, MarthaA is dependent on what Being is.  That almost sounds redundant but it is only a definitional problem.  What you are saying is that Being in the overarching sense confirms for us that our body exists through our logical powers of deducing from cause and effect.  However, it is circular reasoning unless the Being that confirms the being of our being and the being of our body is confirmable itself.  I would agree that cause and effect serves the use for a healthy grasp of a logical intuition of existence.  And of course we should do no less than work toward that end.  But it becomes moot until Beingness itself is perfectly understood.  To say that Being is a state or fact of existing provides no intuition of meaning.  It is a tautology, self-defining on a chariot to nowhere.  Every individual has an occult hunch but no firm awareness.  We are reduced to babble if we pursue any cogency.  What we thought we were one minute flies away in the next.  Are we reduced then to say the concept of Being really has no meaning?  Why would I say that?  Do we not only define our existent self by its relation to other objects, and actions we take?  So to say ‘I am’ necessitates that some action is attached to it, some relation, or there is no reason to say it at all.  If we want to see Being in itself, we must tear away all predicates assigned to it. We must bear Being in its naked form.

I am glad to have provided you with a hyberbolic belly laugh, MarthaA.  Levity is uplifting.

My dear garth, all is an illusion, even illusion.  We only conjecture since if we had a grasp of the truth we would be running everything.  We would be omniscient and omnipotent.  And that would be bigger than a rock star, and our President.  Do you know anyone who is running Everything?  Now do not cheat and hypothesize a supernatural, as that would then require non-tautological earthly examples.  I know, I know, that is all that is left, all that has been hypothesized since the cave.  I delusionally keep thinking the grand unified human mind has progressed.  Tch tch.  But like Sisyphus, we must keep trying, it is in our genes. 

N-G “2006 it was found an average 273 died from lack of health care here. Approximately 99,645 each year are sacrificed for their red soaked profits. With things now so much worse how many now? Not counting suicides.”  And not counting our loved ones and family who have been and will be sacrificed. 

So, OM you were not chewing on rock hard marshmallows?

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By Night-Gaunt, August 13, 2009 at 12:43 pm Link to this comment

“True, the Obama’s Whitehouse has called out the Brownshirts (Purpleshirts, which are Union THUGS) to intimidate citizens who disagree with him. Violence at the meetings didn’t start till Obama did that.”Ozark Michael

Now that is an unverified point of view pushed by the reich-wing who hates the unions and calls them “thugs” every chance they get. Unlike their side which is always referred to as “normal people” and such. Very biased, right from Glenn Beck. Try looking at more than Fark News for a wider picture. The more points you look from the greater is your vision of a wider world.

“Obama sold out to PHRMA.  By HHS, we give then 2.6 trillion and they’ll reduce the bill by 80 billon, (You do the math) provided they give Obama Corp. 150 million for tv advertisements to float the bill past the people.”Garth

Grep Palast worked that out to a 2% discount! Even so the various corporate hospitals are fighting with an average $1.4 million a day to stop even this small concession. Greed has no bounds nor does their bloodlust to kill to get it. This is blood money.

2006 it was found and average 273 died from lack of health care here. Approximate 99,645 each year are sacrificed for their red soaked profits. With things now so much worse how many now? Not counting suicides.

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By garth, August 13, 2009 at 12:26 pm Link to this comment

When the shit hits the fan, they’ll hang the philosopher and the sophist, let the duck go and take the dog home.
You can’t get closer to the truth unless you act with a clear conscience and for the best purposes. 
Obama sold out to PHRMA.  By HHS, we give then 2.6 trillion and they’ll reduce the bill by 80 billon, (You do the math) provided they give Obama Corp. 150 million for tv advertisements to float the bill past the people.

An ill wind blows no good.

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By OzarkMichael, August 13, 2009 at 12:22 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA: Your August 12 11:26pm post is a subjective rant in line with ADOLPH HITLER’S use of “organized political sophistry”;

True, the Obama Whitehouse has called out the Brownshirts(Purpleshirts, which are Union THUGS) to intimidate citizens who disagree with him. Violence at the meetings didnt start till Obama did that.

And now Obama wants to intimidate dissent by collecting a secret government database. So yes, I can see why you would think that Obama is in line with ADOLF HITLER. i wouldnt go that far, but its an interesting viewpoint that you have.

MarthaA asks: Are you being paid for “organized political sophist activity”?  Another simple YES or NO.

Now if i said YES, and if I was willing to send you some of the money they gave me, would you join our side? The dental plan is posh. Its pretty sweet living, i tell you what!

But maybe you wont sign up to be on the payroll of organized political sophist activity?

In that case my answer to your simple question is a simple NO. I am not on any payroll of organized political sophist activity. Nossiree.

I gotta go. Gonna get my teeth cleaned.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 13, 2009 at 12:03 pm Link to this comment

“Nothing” to you MarthaA but it is important and it affects anyone who has a nervous system. I answered your question just not the cut-and-dried simplicity you want.

That was either one very heavy marshmallow or a smooth light colored rock or a rock inside a marshmallow.

Don’t judge a book by its cover.

Which is heavier; 100 tons of lead or 100 tons of marshmallows? Which will mash you? Which won’t?

Perception is our individual reality. It is a narrow tunnel and we must fight to expand that tunnel. We have enough overlap of most of us to get along well enough. But there are problems the least of which is how we are raised and the propaganda wars we are sucked into to induce a specific reality tunnel and its concomitant responses.

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By garth, August 13, 2009 at 11:31 am Link to this comment

I just listened to Roger Simon of Politico. I’d tell him, that the Death Panel hype is just a straw man.  People are not taken in by it.  That’s is just the media hype. 
What people want is to be treated fairly.  Not to be treated like some step-child.  They want single payer to take that burden off their backs once and for all. 
Why are we different from Canada, Germany, France, Sweden or any of the other European nations? What is it with us that makes you think that we can be scared and bled dry and still get up and go to work the next morning ad infinitum?
Why do you pit the younger generation against the older?  What good will that do you?
Just come right out and say it.  You are a brand name and that brand is, Obama, and it will provide in leadership whatever the big banks, the big insurance, the big oil say it will provide. 
Let’s see how long you last.

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By MarthaA, August 13, 2009 at 11:28 am Link to this comment

Outraged,

In answer to your post to Shenonymous 8/13 @ 3:33am.

Reality is a function of understanding the story of the dogs and the duck and the rock and the marshmallow.

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By MarthaA, August 13, 2009 at 11:23 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

The “being of our being” confirms the “being of our body” through the process of “cause and effect”.

From the vantage point of the “being of our being”, the “being of our being” perceives our body as our being and the “being of our being” uses “cause and effect” as feed back to confirm or deny the assumptions made by the “being of our being”; should we do less for all of the external world around us?——the standard that exists between the “being of our being” and “the being of our body” seems a reasonable standard to apply to the greater external cosmos beyond the “being of our body”; do you agree or disagree?

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By MarthaA, August 13, 2009 at 11:02 am Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt,

“If the Rock fell on your foot and mashed it to mush, would it be an objective Rock or a subjective Marshmallow?”—MarthaA

Your post was much ado about NOTHING, and did not respond to the question about the rock and the marshmallow.  Could you limit yourself to answering the question about the rock and the marshmallow?

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By MarthaA, August 13, 2009 at 10:54 am Link to this comment

Ozark-Michael,

Your August 12 11:26pm post is a subjective rant in line with ADOLPH HITLER’S use of “organized political sophistry”; it does not respond OBJECTIVELY to the questions of whether or not this type of “organized political sophistry” should be regulated by law in the best interest of National Security of the United States; a simple YES or NO.

Are you being paid for “organized political sophist activity”?  Another simple YES or NO.

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By MarthaA, August 13, 2009 at 10:52 am Link to this comment

Ozark-Michael,

Your August 12 11:26pm post is a subjective rant in line with ADOLPH HITLER’S use of “organized political sophistry”; YOUR POST does not respond OBJECTIVELY to the question of whether or not “organized political sophistry” should be regulated by law in the best interest of National Security of the United States; a simple YES or NO.

Are you being paid for “organized political sophist activity”?  Another simple YES or NO.

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By OzarkMichael, August 13, 2009 at 10:43 am Link to this comment

MarthaA said: Again, we are talking about ORGANIZED political sophist activity here that is intentionally used to disrupt legitimate political activity; if YOU disagree with regulation of this activity for all, it can only mean that YOU are engaged in this type of activity and that YOU do not want it to be criminalized.

The Whitehouse is keeping track of who says what, they have been doing this for a week now. On a secret government database. Its the first step towards criminalizing my disagreement with you, which is something you desperately would love

The Whitehouse needs your help, MarthaA. How can Obama build a database of criminal activity if you dont report people.

So did you report me yet?  If you know of criminal activity but you dont report it, that means YOU are a criminal too.

So get your objectivity into gear and flag me.

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By MarthaA, August 13, 2009 at 10:29 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Thank you for sharing that parable, I laughed so hard I got tears in my eyes, because it is true.

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By MarthaA, August 13, 2009 at 10:20 am Link to this comment

PhreedomPhan,

We are talking about ORGANIZED SOPHIST POLITICAL PROPAGANDA when YOU know full well that everything YOU say is an intentional misrepresentation contrary to the National interests.

Again, we are talking about ORGANIZED political sophist activity here that is intentionally used to disrupt legitimate political activity; if YOU disagree with regulation of this activity for all, it can only mean that YOU are engaged in this type of activity and that YOU do not want it to be criminalized.  We are talking about regulating organized sophist political activity for everyone, not just the Right.

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By garth, August 13, 2009 at 9:35 am Link to this comment

Thank you, Shenonymous.

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By Rodger Lemonde, August 13, 2009 at 9:13 am Link to this comment

The people are revolting!
Regarding those who disrupt town hall meetings, they certainly are.
Not as revolting as the scum that deceives them into fighting against their best interests are.

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By Shenonymous, August 13, 2009 at 6:58 am Link to this comment

Perhaps OzarkMichael, you are happy with 70%, you and your soul sistah, MarthaA, but you quite baggily leave out 30%.  I mean are you suggesting there is only a 70% probability there is a reality?  Dogs have some sort of reality, and the awashed subjectives also.  Which is misleading, for two reasons, the only reality there is is subjective (please prove otherwise), and you assume that not humans have no reality at all, which is monomaniacal, as MarthaA, I know, would say, uh, er, subjective.  So you would lay yourself right smack dab in the middle of the unreal and if you are unreal, who exactly just made that post?  I know all of this because I consulted the Delphic Oracle (who informed me that cats also have a reality that coincides with humans, I was asked to reflect deeply on this problem).  And if you don’t believe me, please contact Leefeller, who knows 40 such non-humans.  Moyers doesn’t know the way to the temple.  He just thinks there is a path.  MarthaA, I apologize for using your personna to fatten up my argument.  I realize I am illegally profiting by it.  There is magic in numbers, I am told, especially the numbers 70, 20, and 10.

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By Leefeller, August 13, 2009 at 6:53 am Link to this comment

Chicken Little may have something to cluck about, NASA says astronomers cannot keep up with the increased number of killer hemorrhoids heading towards earth, now this may be reality because they seem to be everywhere on Fox.

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By OzarkMichael, August 13, 2009 at 6:28 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous said: Certainly I can appreciate your concern Outraged, but are we taking a poll on what is reality?  Is there a significant percentage that would provide enough comfort,” to assure us that what is really there really is there?

The “significant percentage which would provide comfort” has been measured.

It is 70%.

At 10% you are not a human being but a dog. At 20% you are awash in subjectivity.

But if you get to 70% of the population, your mob becomes enlightened like a flock of ducks flying home for the summer, and becomes objectivity itself.

Bill Moyers has filmed the objective mob while they perform their objective activities(ie riots). So its all on film.

Look it up.

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By Shenonymous, August 13, 2009 at 5:40 am Link to this comment

Good morning!

He says, “Certainly I can entertain your summation.  But the “reality” is that this is “reality” to the most, therefore whether all objectivity is subjective only has a measure of bearing on what most consider real.”

Certainly I can appreciate your concern Outraged, but are we taking a poll on what is reality?  Is there a significant percentage that would provide enough comfort,” to assure us that what is really there really is there? 

Sounds a bit like what we call an electron and the fact that we only hypothesize not only its existence as a fuzzy, spinning, positive (positrons) or negatively charged (electron) affair that bonds with others of its same kind and in the most puzzling and illogical way, with similar others that are different, one has never been seen by human eyes, and never will be.  We live only on hope that what we have accumulated as “knowledge” conforms to laws of the universe (which we have devised as well). Because we have a hunch that without this unknown particle, we wouldn’t have a universe.  This is the same handicap we have about our own existence.  We are locked into a limited form physically and mentally, not micro, not macro and while we accept evidence that we can gander at either of those extremes, with microscopes and telescopes, we are still fatally burdened by our own hubris.  Were we to succumb to utter skepticism, we would be left with the necessity of an impossible contradiction of doubting doubt itself, thus annihilating doubt!  But with what then are we left?  To continue to exist as an absolute, we would necessarily dare to believe we do.  We are reduced to incoherence since we are speculating that we are speculating.  Oh what a conundrum.  But we have comically worked our way out of it, haven’t we?

It must be time for cup of coffee!

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By Outraged, August 13, 2009 at 12:33 am Link to this comment

Re: Shenonymous

Your comment: “It is a belief.  Just one brief look through an electronmicroscope would breathtakingly show you all the space there is between the invisible subatomic particles that are only seen as shadows.  And you shudder at the thought that the microscope itself isn’t even really there.  Pretend you see quarks and antiquarks.  And that is the point, the world is made up.  Your view of the world is uniquely yours, and mine is mine.  It is the frightening Truth.  It is still completely mysterious how it is we can know there is something outside of ourselves.  That I know there is a you, and that you know there is a me is a complete mystery and no philosopher, no scientist, no religious sophist has any idea how it is.  We organized bunch of protoplasm are conditioned to believe our senses, but our senses are notorious for lying, misrepresenting.”

Certainly I can entertain your summation.  But the “reality” is that this is “reality” to the most, therefore whether all objectivity is subjective only has a measure of bearing on what most consider real.  It is in this regard, I refer to what I call “grounded reality”, for example, if the things we see are only images of a larger reality which in itself is extremely difficult to grasp, then they are not real to the most and therefore have meaning only to those who understand them.  This is “reality”. (lol)

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By Shenonymous, August 12, 2009 at 10:49 pm Link to this comment

Objectivity is a projection from subjectivity.  It is the insatiable desire to connect with an external world.  We sense there is an external world.  But that world cannot ultimately be verified, regardless how intricate or strenuousness of thought is attempted.  It isn’t just most of every of what is that is invisible, not just 80%, all of it is.  It is a fiction to think there is really anything there.  It is a belief.  Just one brief look through an electronmicroscope would breathtakingly show you all the space there is between the invisible subatomic particles that are only seen as shadows.  And you shudder at the thought that the microscope itself isn’t even really there.  Pretend you see quarks and antiquarks.  And that is the point, the world is made up.  Your view of the world is uniquely yours, and mine is mine.  It is the frightening Truth.  It is still completely mysterious how it is we can know there is something outside of ourselves.  That I know there is a you, and that you know there is a me is a complete mystery and no philosopher, no scientist, no religious sophist has any idea how it is.  We organized bunch of protoplasm are conditioned to believe our senses, but our senses are notorious for lying, misrepresenting.  And that thing we call a mind, another invisibility, concocts from that faulty sensing delivery system fantastic external realities, one that could include the beauty of a Canadian Rockies, or a fine Cabernet, even our own existence.  Deny it all you want, even our conversation here is at bottom a fiction.  We do not even know who or what is at the other end of the electronic comments we post.  We only hope.  So we constantly speculate what is really real.  And we limp along in our utter ignorance, don’t we?

Understanding that this is The Truth gives reason to make whatever we perceive to be a world, a better one.

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By Outraged, August 12, 2009 at 10:16 pm Link to this comment

Re: Shenonymous

I also think you are exactly right about what is the real size of the anti-healthcare gang.  That illustrates why it is pure b.s. for anyone to declare anything about “the People.”  To speak for a collective when no reliable poll has been taken, no statistics compiled as you put it, just leads to a crap basket of confusion.  It makes the actually puny group look bigger and more powerful than it is. It is smoke and mirrors. And no one ought to be suckered by the slithery strategy of the insurance companies that are putting every ounce of their energy in to stopping healthcare reform.”

Sorry for not responding in a timely manner, but sometimes petty things loom “large”, I guess it depends upon one’s vantage point.

I sense that The American People are ready for single-payer, and in this construct (one wherein, I agree btw), it matters not whether Pres. Obama states one thing, yet I another.  It is not a love-hate deal.  It is simply, what I would choose, do choose… and will support.

To put this in context, certainly if we view matters in PURELY a political context, then it isn’t ONLY Pres. Obama and his admin. but other factors which attempt to skew The People’s sentiment.  As Ripley said, truth is stranger than fiction, and it is for this reason, among others, that I will continue to pressure for what I regard as the will of The American People.

Pres. Obama, has assessed things from several vantage points, I feel.  I also feel that I see a side, “the (sincere) hollering side” that I KNOW to be misdirected.  Oh… they love that “grandma”.... soon to be them, has her medicare…. and they’ll FIGHT “tooth and nail” for her social security benefits. Yet… realistically at the same time, they will denounce all those who support her having them.

This, I UNDERSTAND (in a very personal way), their thoughts…  It is for this reason, I will supercede their misguided attempt to thwart that for which they have much confusion regarding, and continue to push for that WHICH THEY WANT!

Oh… they can bitch, and later, if I’m lucky(lol) they’ll sheepishly thank me.  But either way, it appears, I happen to have a “flair for reality” which it seems at times… escapes them.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 12, 2009 at 9:31 pm Link to this comment

“If the Rock fell on your foot and mashed it to mush, would it be an objective Rock or a subjective Marshmallow?”MarthaA

Subjectivity is based upon the impressions being transmitted from my sensory organs to be interpreted by my brain. That includes pain receptors. When was the last time you were object to something? No you are subject to something.

Objectivity is a state we should strive to be. To go beyond the normal limits put on our sensory equipment and psychological locks on perception we develop from childhood. But most of our minds can’t stand the huge amount of data so it shuts most of it out. The literary Sherlock Holmes could process more than the average person.

Don’t confuse subjectivity with hallucination though one can discuss that relation in another forum. Humans can lie, fabricate and synthesize our own memories that are completely false. A strength and a weakness. So that is why the ancient philosophers and metaphysicians talked about maya or the myth of perception. Called also a “waking dream.” They understood that we did not see everything that is there. Which is quite true. Most of what is is invisible and untouchable by us. At least 80% or more! Dark matter and energy make up the bulk of reality and it is less than real to us. If it hadn’t been for the observed gravitational lens effect it would be mythical.

Purposeful alteration of that perception by marketing using tried and true techniques of mind manipulation learned from psychiatry is well known for at least 80 years. I speculate that there are variances in the human genome and some can see into wavelengths the rest of us can’t and they ‘see’ odd things.

I think MarthaA you need to expand your perceptions by reading books about such and that includes neurology and behavior. It would help you understand. It has helped me.

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By OzarkMichael, August 12, 2009 at 8:26 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA says: We’re closer to real health care reform than we’ve ever been—and the next few weeks will decide whether it happens. We need to make sure the truth about health care reform is spread far and wide to combat right wing lies.

Have you done your share, martha? have you reported anyone to the government yet for being a right wing liar? the Obama Whitehouse is requesting you do so and I quote:

“There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care.  These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation.  Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address).”

from the Whitehouse Blog(bold print was mine):

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/

Lanny Davis asked for names and addresses. So now you have something important to do. Get the information together and Flag me.

You are objective marthaA. That means you know what fascism is and you know how to stop it.

So flag the conservatives now, before its too late.

Flag me. Flag your neighbors.

Get to it!

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By Shenonymous, August 12, 2009 at 7:09 pm Link to this comment

I am reminded of a parable of a Philosopher and a Sophist.  A Philosopher was walking his dog, and a Sophist was carrying a mallard duck, when they happened upon each other.  The Philosopher was contemplating the nature of a rock that was precariously hovering over the edge of a precipice he could see high above along the walking path.  He was craning his neck.  The Sophist was eating what he thought were and professed to be marshmallows.  One of the marshmallows accidentally was dropped and it landed on the Philosopher’s foot, and he smiled thinking it was impossible to know if it was a real marshmallow, or might it not be an imaginary rock?  Since nothing in objective experience can ever be known, he only knew subjectively which it possibly could be.  He was unaware if his foot had been injured or not.  There was no precise way to tell.  So he shrugged his shoulders and turned his thoughts to what the really real was.  The Sophist ate another ersatz marshmallow, set his mallard duck to flight as it had gotten too heavy and continued walking past the Philosopher.  He made a passing remark saying to the Philosopher how hard the marshmallows were and that he didn’t understand why all of his teeth were broken moaning that it would certainly put a chink in his lecturing.  The dog barked as it plaintively watched as the mallard fly off, but that was all it could do.  He was chained to the Philosopher, who was lost in thought while the Sophist whined about his broken teeth, and the mallard flying towards the sun, was the only being that was free.  There really is no moral to the story, it is just the way things are.
_____
Posted for the benefit of another forum where deluded marshmallow-eating sophists also have been showing up, I was unable to resist sharing this parable with the lofty thinkers here.

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By Jonathan5052, August 12, 2009 at 6:29 pm Link to this comment

The year was 2000. not 2002…my bad!  I guess all of us are getting a bit older with each passing day….

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By PhreedomPhan, August 12, 2009 at 6:21 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA said:

I don’t think I can agree with you, Martha, that dissent should be considered treason, but I’m sure Stalin and Mao would.  I thought concern with National Security and desire to put everyone who dissents in prison was supposed to be a Bush “Fascist” thing.  Turns out to be a neo Bolshevik Red Brigade thing too.

I’ve often described the difference between a communist, a fascist, and a socialist in this way.  A communist is red with one inch black stripes placed one inch apart.  A fascist is black with one inch red stripes placed one inch apart.  A socialist is neither red nor black but has alternating one inch red and black stripes.  Does that go over your head, Martha?

I most certainly disagree with your solution to problems caused by dissenters who value liberty over an imagined security provided by an all powerful nanny state.  Kinda smacks of a “Final Solution.”

Don’t get me wrong.  I don’t like sophistry either, Martha, but I wouldn’t put you in jail for it.  I wouldn’t send the KGB, Gestapo, or FBI out to arrest you.  I would just hope people see through you.

Your old friend,
Rick
http://PhreedomPhan-lostliberty.blogspot.com
http://phreedomphan-americasenemies.blogspot.com

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By Jonathan5052, August 12, 2009 at 6:19 pm Link to this comment

From MarthaA:

“”“Freedom of speech for an individual is not the same as “organized political disrupters” provoking intentionally to evoke a causal response to subjective assertions in order to obtain political benefit; this type of political sophistry is harmful to the National Security of the United States, and this type of political sophist activity must be criminalized as a STANDARD for all organized political activity in the United States; it is in the best interest of all of the citizens of the United States to do so.  Do you agree with this as a solution that is in the best interest of the nation as a whole?”“”

In 2002 this kind of activity had disrupted the legal recounting of ballots in Florida and brought to a frozen halt the Gore-vs.-Bush national Presidential election and Democratic hopes for the Oval Office; not one single law-breaking disrupter was arrested and charged because it was an inside job orchestrated by the Bush dynasty.  If ordinary everyday citizens had done the same thing, they would never have passed the ground floor and would have been quickly escorted outside and chauffeured to jail. (And of course, we know that Al Gore WAS the unofficial winner whose trophy had been hijacked by people who didn’t care about candidates running a fair race.)  The recent protests by the so-called universal health-care protesters was nothing short of illegal grandstanding.  YES, all of this drama is an illicit affront to free speech, decent democratic discussion and common sense.  Are the noses of the U.S. voters still working properly these days?  I surely hope so…because I definitely can smell the rats!

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By MarthaA, August 12, 2009 at 4:20 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt,

Your post can be explained by the story of the Rock and the Marshmallow that I told Shenonymous.  If the Rock fell on your foot and mashed it to mush, would it be an objective Rock or a subjective Marshmallow?

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By MarthaA, August 12, 2009 at 4:01 pm Link to this comment

PhreedomPhan,

The answer is to make organized illegitimate political sophist activity and political propaganda, on the level of “Neo Brown Shirt Disrupters,” that if left unchecked is harmful to the National Security, a treasonable offense that is not excused by individual freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech for an individual is not the same as “organized political disrupters” provoking intentionally to evoke a causal response to subjective assertions in order to obtain political benefit; this type of political sophistry is harmful to the National Security of the United States, and this type of political sophist activity must be criminalized as a STANDARD for all organized political activity in the United States; it is in the best interest of all of the citizens of the United States to do so.  Do you agree with this as a solution that is in the best interest of the nation as a whole? Or, do you disagree?  If you disagree, please give your reasons for your disagreement.

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By Shenonymous, August 12, 2009 at 3:57 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi, go to http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/12/us/politics/12obama.text.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print#
About half way down the transcript of the Aug 11 townhall Obama had in Portsmouth you will find in very clear English Obama’s view on single-payer.  I’ve copied and pasted it here for you but you might want to read the entire text. 

A single-payer plan would be a plan like Medicare for all, or the kind of plan that they have in Canada, where basically government is the only person—is the only entity that pays for all health care. Everybody has a government-paid-for plan, even though in, depending on which country, the doctors are still private or the hospitals might still be private. In some countries, the doctors work for the government and the hospitals are owned by the government. But the point is, is that government pays for everything, like Medicare for all. That is a single-payer plan.

I have not said that I was a single-payer supporter because, frankly, we historically have had a employer-based system in this country with private insurers, and for us to transition to a system like that I believe would be too disruptive. So what would end up happening would be, a lot of people who currently have employer-based health care would suddenly find themselves dropped, and they would have to go into an entirely new system that had not been fully set up yet. And I would be concerned about the potential destructiveness of that kind of transition.

All right? So I’m not promoting a single-payer plan.

I am promoting a plan that will assure that every single person is able to get health insurance at an affordable price, and that if they have health insurance they are getting a good deal from the insurance companies. That’s what I’m fighting for. (Applause.)

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By KDelphi, August 12, 2009 at 3:08 pm Link to this comment

Single payer is already here, but youve heard that—only for select people. I didnt hear Obama say it was “too complex”—and even if he did , the truth is that it is because he got millions of dollars from the insurance industry and Big Pharma. He is just like everyone else in DC.
In 2003, he said that , what was needed to achieve single payer was a Democratic Senate House aNd presidency—-I think he has that, or am I wrong?

Merkin/Cod piece—dickhead, same thing, Night Guant..lol Maybe Merikin??

I dont think that Universal is too much to ask—-every county in the civilized world has it, and China has just announced that they will be implementing it—how in the world can companies here compete when we still have primitivisitic, employer based care?

Its not working and we will eventually go to single payer or it will just become unaviable to all but the elites. Mark those words.

I know that most of you have Medicare or private coverage now—but you wont have in the future—-we just cannot do that anymore. Only the very welathy will be able to afford all but RR care in the future.

The way to afford it is TAXES!! Taking the idea of taxing those with gold plated plans, and those making over $250,000 a yr off the table waas really stupid. If they dont pay for it, the working classes will and they arent working anymore and cant.

I would gladly pay out of my measly check to have the peace of nind of knowing that I will never go bankrupt because I am sick, nor will anyone else…those that think that it is too much to ask need to live abroad for a year or so and see how it works…and it does..

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By Jonathan5052, August 12, 2009 at 11:53 am Link to this comment

The real problem in all of this is not the right-wing opposition to a public-health care bill in Congress or the failure of President Obama to successfully sell the public-option proposal, it is rather that the U.S. voters have allowed their elected representatives on all levels (federal, state and local) to corrupt good government through their association with corporate interests and lobbyist handouts.  Most of our elected officials, from the White House on down to our local town and city bodies, have been bought and sold by special interests concerned only with filling their deep pockets at taxpayers’ expense.  We cannot and should not blame the President or Congress for our lack of universal health care, state-of-the-art public transportation, or a healthier economy: No, we need to blame ourselves because we highly failed to pay closer attention to our leaders and should have stirred up national attention by our marching in the streets and shouting all the way to Washington under the formation of a true people’s protest, not the special-interest-driven right-wing based Tea Party, whose supporters are overwhelmingly opposed to any kind of public-health care option.  Our blind trust in the officials elected by us, in unison with our ignorance of the real facts and our inept failure to question our elected officials whenever we had sensed that they were not working mainly in our behalf may probably be a few of the reasons now leading us to ruin and helping the corporate interests continue the status quo.

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By glider, August 12, 2009 at 11:49 am Link to this comment

“if you can nip this health care thing in the bud, you could stand in the way of a president who wants to rein in Wall Street’s worse excesses”

What president would this be? LOL!

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By Leefeller, August 12, 2009 at 6:38 am Link to this comment

After exhaustive research I found some worthy rebuttals to the Medical plan, in point debunking the debunked.

op Five Health Care Reform Lies Debunked and rebutted

Lie #1: President Obama wants to euthanize your grandma!!!

Of course he does, he must know my grandma.

Lie #2: Democrats are going to outlaw private insurance and force you into a government plan!!!

Does this mean he is calling back the draft?

Lie #3: President Obama wants to implement Soviet-style rationing!!!

Are we in for a shortage of toilet paper too?

Lie #4: Obama is secretly plotting to cut senior citizens’ Medicare benefits!!!

Yes, so secretly is the plotting it has been relentlessly on Fox News and the talking heads shows as the sun rises, how do they discover all this plotting?

Lie #5: Obama’s health care plan will bankrupt America!!!

Unlike the Bailouts and military budgets.

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By PhreedomPhan, August 12, 2009 at 5:10 am Link to this comment

“Right-wing Shock Troops?”  When will people learn that the “shock troops” of both the left and the right do the bidding of Money.

I remember arguing with “liberal” friends when the phrase “Big Business controls the government” started becoming popular.  I certainly would not disagree, but I would ask them what should be done about it.  Almost invariably the answer would be, “Give Congress more power to control Big Business.”  Well, Duh!  If Big Business controls the government, which I certainly agree, then who are you giving more power to when you give more power to government?

Reps vs. Dems, left vs. right, welfare vs. warfare, all the two sides of the same coin periodically given a controlled flip to come out with the side Big Business wants up.  When will we ever learn?  When will we ever learn?  The flowers are being hoarded to put on the Republics grave.

Rick
http://PhreedomPhan-lostliberty.blogspot.com
http://phreedomphan-americasenemies.blogspot.com

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By Shenonymous, August 12, 2009 at 1:28 am Link to this comment

You are right Outraged, but what makes you think single-payer is what we are going to get?  Perhaps you don’t think so, and I am just reacting to your interrogation of BlueEagle. Obama explained he is for universal but thinks installing single payer is much too complex. He presented a rational argument why it is too intricate with too many parts that are interconnected to a very perplexing whole that to insist on single payer would delay any delivery for years.  A question that ought to be sent to Obama is okay, maybe not immediately and maybe universal is the way to go right now, but what is your thought, President Obama, about a switching to single payer as an ultimate goal and when would that be achievable?  And while many of us want it, I think with Obama’s sentiment, it won’t happen this time around the track.  It is my prediction that no amount of tantrum is going to end up with single-payer.

I also think you are exactly right about what is the real size of the anti-healthcare gang.  That illustrates why it is pure b.s. for anyone to declare anything about “the People.”  To speak for a collective when no reliable poll has been taken, no statistics compiled as you put it, just leads to a crap basket of confusion.  It makes the actually puny group look bigger and more powerful than it is. It is smoke and mirrors. And no one ought to be suckered by the slithery strategy of the insurance companies that are putting every ounce of their energy in to stopping healthcare reform.

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By Outraged, August 12, 2009 at 12:30 am Link to this comment

Re: BlueEagle

Your comment: “Bulls**t! People are fed up with the The State, and they are expressing themselves.

The MSM can label these people all they want and make false accusations to try an justify The State’s power grab.”

You are so “full of it”.  The MSM, the MSM….. let me say that again….the MSM!  Huh….?

These supposed anti-healthcare VILLIANS, ARE FRINGE….  If for whatever reason you have been convinced that this is ANY MEASURE of popular public sentiment, YOU have been mislead.  It simply IS NOT TRUE.

The majority want single payer health care!

I’m a reasonable person….. what… what on God’s green earth would lead you to believe that these “advocates” have your or MY best interests at heart?  Tell me….. I’ll hear you out.  Convince me!

Seriously…... What statistics are you using when making your decision….?  Out with it, it’s now or never…. WHAT…?  What would make you BELIEVE that you’ll be fine…. without healthcare reform.

Have at ‘er…. I mean it.  Convince me, that the creeps at the insurance company ARE BETTER THAN ALL OF US!  Do it.  Convince me.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 11, 2009 at 8:34 pm Link to this comment

By the way KDelphi “merkin” is a cod piece or covering for the genital area.

The only way to win against these disrupting people is to get their question and shut the sound off to answer them and if they cause trouble escourt them out to allow others to speak. And they haven’t been able to ask any questions. But get into a shout fest? In a word—-stupid.

Don’t you know what happens if you try to put a fire out with more fire? It doesn’t work very well next to water. [With exceptions for a fire brake.]

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