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What Are the Birthers Really After?

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Posted on Aug 5, 2009

By Joe Conason

On Aug. 4, President Barack Obama celebrated the anniversary of his birth, an event that occurred 48 years ago in the state of Hawaii. This is an indisputable fact, as sane critics on the right, such as the editors of the National Review and the veteran pundit Patrick Buchanan, acknowledge. And yet there is a significant minority, especially within the Republican Party, that fervently insists otherwise.

Why this obsession over Obama’s birthplace persists is a question that evokes disturbing answers.

It was probably inevitable that the election of the first African-American president, a man of mixed racial heritage whose father was Kenyan and whose middle name is Hussein, would stir resentments among the farthest right-wing fringe of American society. There are still people, often clustered in groups that falsely claim to be “conservative” and “patriotic,” who have never accepted the social advances that we have made in the years since Obama’s birth—which occurred in an era when the marriage of his white mother and black father remained illegal in some states.

But if the Obama presidency provokes a certain kind of old bigot, it is also true that the spinning of conspiracy theories, outlandish myths and paranoid fantasies is nothing new in presidential politics. Not long after the Clintons entered the White House in 1993, they became the targets of a stream of poisonous lies, emanating from many of the same sources that are defaming the Obamas today.

The same “news sites,” notably Newsmax.com and WorldNetDaily, and the same right-wing radio personalities, from Rush Limbaugh downward, sought to convince the public that the Clintons were serial killers, drug kingpins, traitors and communists, bent on dissolving American sovereignty into a socialist world government. Those wild accusations were part of a broader right-wing strategy to discredit and curtail Bill Clinton’s presidency.

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If not a “vast right-wing conspiracy,” as Hillary Clinton famously called it, the network behind this effort was indeed very large and extremely determined, and seems to have inflicted permanent damage on our political discourse as well as the mental health of the conservative movement.

Consider the flight from reality of the so-called birthers, who claim that Mr. Obama was actually born in Kenya. To believe that canard, they must also believe that Mr. Obama’s mother and grandparents conspired to publish notices of his birth in not one but two Honolulu newspapers in August 1961; that the current Republican governor of Hawaii, Linda Lingle, a dedicated partisan and strong supporter of her party’s nominee, John McCain, conspired last year and is conspiring now to conceal the truth about Mr. Obama’s birth certificate, along with a host of Hawaii state officials; and that one of several obviously forged “Kenyan” documents is the true Obama birth certificate.

Even Buchanan, who has spent a lifetime agitating white fear, admits that’s nutty. But the mealy-mouthed spokesmen for the Republican Party, on Capitol Hill and in states across the country, dare not say so. They cower before the talk jocks and kooks who have seized the leadership of the right. Much of this madness is just cynical posturing, designed to increase ratings and hits, to sell silly books and fleece the rubes of their money. To understand the phoniness behind the hysteria, recall that anti-Obama propagandists Christopher Ruddy and Richard Mellon Scaife, the owners of Newsmax, used to traffic in all of the Clinton conspiracy nonsense—until they sought a reconciliation with the Clintons over the past few years and admitted that their old accusations were utterly wrong. Why would anyone trust their accusations against the president now?

Most Americans never will. But the clear purpose of birther propaganda is not to win a majority by democratic means, but to drive a minority of a minority into turmoil and even violence—as indicated by their behavior at this month’s congressional town hall meetings. Should we experience another tragedy like the Oklahoma City bombing, the blood and the ruin will be on their conscience.

Joe Conason writes for the New York Observer.

© 2009 Creators.com


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By Folktruther, August 13, 2009 at 5:39 am Link to this comment

“And we will not further anything until we acknowledge the FACT that our very first boundary was our own stupidity.”

I don’t think so, Mozzer.  It is not stupidity that is the major hisorical problem. We are not stupid, we are ideologically insane.  Rather, wer are stupid BECAUSE we are politically insane.  The historical problem is not intellectual ignorance, it is emotional denial.

We have been instilled with power delusions by our power structures historically that render us incapable of telling the simple holistic truth about people and power. The simple truth about people belongs to that genre that Michael Parenti has called the DIRTY truth.  It is therefore excluded from the nice clean sanitized truth of the mainstream truth traditons of polities.

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By Sepharad, August 13, 2009 at 12:32 am Link to this comment

Sodium, re your August 12, 1:29pm post—I didn’t intend to imply that liberals should shut down birthers, just that we have to find a way to respond in the same coin. The idea of placing individuals scattered throughout the audience who would shout out in response to a birther’s shouted comment, I must admit, might make everything more chaotic lacking deft handling. A moderator between speaker and audience might ask for two people to express their separate views one at a time then wait for speaker to respond.

I’m not knowledgeable re public debate, rhetoric, rallies, speeches etc.—but experienced in handling two sides of argument in print, after 15 years with our magazine of California history. If readers found an article controversial, in the next issue, we’d publish someone disagreeing with it version and let the original author defend his facts and position—a point/counterpoint. This often generated many letters on both sides, carried in the following issue.

Irate people set on disrupting a public appearance such as a town hall meeting are harder to deal with.

You never suggested that we stifle anyone’s comment, and I didn’t intend to either. Certainly did not suggest, as Folktruther imagines, that liberals should mob conservative gatherings. In the newspaper today, saw a pic of a birther holding up a sign reading “Euthanize Obama”, across the room from a more reasonable fellow holding up the sign “Euthanize Ignorants”. (Not sure if he met “ignorance” or a collection of ignorant people.) That’s one responce in the same coin but not enough.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Sodium, re your Aug. 29 comment, I didn’t intend to suggest we shut down birther comment (and I don’t think you did either) but find some way to respond in kind. I suggested that we plant liberal individuals throughout an audience just as the birthers do, so they could shout out counter messages when the birthers do. That probably would result in even more chaos, however. Perhaps there could be a moderator who would allow one birther to speak then one liberal, one at a time, then let the speaker respond. Then one of each give another question or statement and let the speaker respond. This is not the standard open town meeting format, but there has to be some way to curb those who just want to outshout any expression of opinion not held by them.

I really couldn’t say what the best procedure would be—am not very good at speeches, rhetoric, debate though had to deal with such things occasionally in voter registration days, usually off the cuff with people who were upset, sometimes yelling. My main experience in dealing varied opinions was in my 15 years of editing our magazine of California history. It was about individuals and events and issues, livelier than society journals, but had referees—people who knew more about a subject or at least as much as the author did—because California history was not my specialty. Even so, some articles were very controversial. So when merited, in the following issue I’d set up a point/counterpoint situation allowing a critic of the original author’s contentions to write his critique, and the original author to answer it. Usually got tons of letters from people on the subject after these dueling opinions, and printed as many of them as there was space for in the next issue.

I’ll leave the remedies for town hall mobbing to people who are good at it. I bet James Carville would generate a good idea or two—he’s married to an equally brilliant political operative who is just as conservative as he is liberal.

Never did suggest that liberals suppress speech at conservative gatherings, though that’s how Folktruther read it.   

Lots of excellent contributions here—yours, Martha, Louise, dfabian,Night Gaunt, garth ... And garth, I apologize for responding to your comment on another thread by agreeing that you were an anti-Semite. You obviously aren’t.

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By Mozzer75, August 12, 2009 at 10:10 pm Link to this comment

The IDEA of Israel is, of course, a wonderful thing. I am not religious, but I can appreciate the epic of the Jewish diaspora experiencing the awful prejudice of our pre-Modern world and the Modern atrocities of the Holocaust and anti-Semitism; it is difficult, however, to just carve out a piece of land based on Biblical principles, and sanction the sovereignty of whatever people were given such lands. I understand that leaders of the time were trying to correct millennia of unspeakable horror; except, basically, the SAME precedent was followed as after WWI and the carving up of the Ottoman Empire that resulted in the idiocy of boundaries culminating in the Iran-Iraq war, and all Mid-East conflicts since. And we will not further anything until we acknowledge the FACT that our very first boundary was our own stupidity.

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By Folktruther, August 12, 2009 at 9:18 pm Link to this comment

You sure write a lot, Sodium, for someone whose wife is coming back.  I don’t think you ae a fascist or a hoodlum, just politically naive. Inherit isn’t a fascist, he is from New Jersey, a different thing entirely.  My field of expertise is ideologically illegitimate conceptual structures.

Inherit, leftists have been having meetings for over a century broken up by police and goons.  We have developed ways of dealing with them.  They are diffenent than Dem ways.

This evening I went to a health meeting organized by the Dems.  The meeting room was too small to hold the people in the library so they went outside, where they were diatribed by insurance reps and doctors opposing any change in the US health program.

This was not simply Dem incompetence but a fear of arousing a mass audience, the Dem oprative program being to damp it down, defuse it, and nuetralize it.  Their fear of mass emotion will support the Dem leaders selling out the Progressive rank and file, as they have done in so many other ways.

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By Ted Swart, August 12, 2009 at 7:06 pm Link to this comment

Good to see some of Sepharad’s level headed contributions.
I agree with her that at least some of the driving force behind the “birthers” is nothing other than racism. Unfortunately, Obama has not helped in this regard since he allowed himself to be characterized by the media as the first “black” president in the US even although he is nothing of the sort. If he had bothered to correct the media by pointing out that he is not the first black president but the first patently mixed race(colored?)president this would have gone a long way towards disarming racism at its inception.

I think it was Sodium who suggested we might like to read Jill Pryor’s article on The Natural-Born Citizen Clause in Presidential Eligibility.  Pryor goes to great pains to explore the level of uncertainty surrounding the phrase “natural-born” and suggests that the uncertainty could easily be eradicated by agreeing that any individual who qualifies as a US citizen at the time of their birth should ipso facto be regarded as natural-born.

One thing is abundantly clear and that is that, whatever interpretation is put on the term natural-born, being born in Hawaii (and thus in the US) with a US mother does qualify as natural-born (the fact that Obamma’s father was a UK citizen at that time does not matter).
So I remain extremely puzzled as to why president Obama has not simply gone ahead and released his full birth certificate—which he is entitled to and capable of doing.
I understand the the birther zealots have now produced a DVD which goes to great lengths to make much of the residual uncertainty surrounding his birth and it would seem that their relentless efforts to keep the pot boiling are not about to stop.
So my question remains: Why has Barack Obama not released his full birth certificate?
Whilst some of you—on this forum—have made attempts to answer this question none of the answers is fully convincing.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 12, 2009 at 6:19 pm Link to this comment

FT:

So you think the idea of a well-regulated meeting is doomed to…FAIL?

Please defend your contention that my rules for shutting down disruptors destroys the idea of a town meeting.

It’s not a political rally and it’s not a protest demonstration.

What can we do to actually HAVE town meetings but prevent these new Black Shirts from totally destroying them?  FT, you sure don’t have any brilliant ideas—just more impotent rants against how corporatism has taken over, how Seph is “evil” and how I’m a “cretin” (a racist term since it refers to people from Crete, the cradle of ancient Greek civilization)

Where’s your practical solution, FT? All you do is whine impotently that Capitalism is dying and on its last legs, just like Marx claim in the Manifesto, issued in 1848!.

When are we going to actually SEE these last legs after it’s been dying for….161 years and counting?

Nor do I want to let the new Mussolini Blackshirts steal the public debates while they insanely claim single-payer health care is the same as the Storming Of the Winter Palace, and Stalin’s purges.

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By Sodium, August 12, 2009 at 2:34 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: Folktruther,August 12 at 1:00 pm.

Folktruther,

Although I do like reading your posts when you concentrate on your fields of expertise such as Marxism,Socialism and your concern for the poor and underdogs like the Palestinians,your accusation of Sepharad and ITW of being fascists is really uncalled for nor was it justified for the least.

Therefore,I wish to call your attention to the following facts that I believe you are unaware of:

(1) Neither Sepharad nor ITW has originated the idea of disrupting the fascist hoodlums attempt to distrupt the town hall meeting. It was I who suggested to disrupt the disrupters.

(2) It was I who had originated the idea of “Bending Iron By Iron”,when the debate/discussion had touched freedom of speech.

(3) It was I who suggested the following: Since one group of fascist hoodlums COAGULATES around another fascist hoodlums to disrupt meeting hall,it was about time that the decent and self-respecting Americans who belonged to various and independent groups to also COAGULATE around each other and challenge the disrupters ugly behaviors at the town hall meeting.

(4) You can call me a fascist hoodlum,if you like. And you will not hurt my feeling at all,because I know for certain that I am neither fascist nor am I a hoodlum.

(5) The following may be a shocker for you: I have been calling on the Israeli leadership,in debates,discussions and in writing,in all my life,that if they desire peace with the whole Arab world,they should make a point of apologizing to what they had done to the Palestinian people. I say this because of profound knowledge of the Arab culture and history. Like any other human cultures in the world,the Arab culture has beauty as well as ugliness. The beauty can be summed up in one one word FOREGIVENESS,with a qualification: if you know how to approach them for foregiveness. The ugliness in the Arab culture is VENGEANCE,again with a qualification: Only when justice is beyond reach. Here the shocker for you,Folktruther: For the last fifty years,I had debated/discussed all kind of Zionists(I can even name them to you),NO ONE EVER suggested an apology should be in order to what Zionism had done to the Palestinian people except Sepharad,and I repeat except Sepharad. I read two posts of her in the last six months in which she had made it very clear that an apology must be extended to the Palestinians. Therefore,as far as I am concrned,she is more humanistic in her feeling and temperment than any other Zionist or a gentile I happened to encounter and discussed the Arab-Israeli conflict with. Therefore,I must tell you again and again that she is not evil as you wish us to believe. And she is no fascist. And if any one to shoulder a blame for suggesting to disrupt the disrupters at the meeting hall,it is me to blame.


Folktruther,this is going to be my last post for a while,since my wife is coming back home after spending a few days with our grandchildren at my son’s house,under the professional health care of my daughter-in-law. You will be wise if you accept the following advice from an old man:

Although Zionism has been a destructive ideology for the Palestinians,not all Zionists are destructive,nor are all of them bad and evil. You can condemn an idealogy but please please do not condemn the adherents of ideology because you are connected to them,whether you like it or not,by a common denominater called: “HUMANITY”.

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By Sodium, August 12, 2009 at 11:27 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: DBM,August 11 at 6:28 pm.

DBM,

You are absolutely correct for calling my attention to the fact that the “Silent Majority” was Richard Nixon’s rhetorical invention,while the “Moral Majority” was the rhetorical invention of the late Rev.Jerry Falwell.

Perhaps,my error was due to the fact that Nixon’s rhetoric in pressing for his Southern Strategy in the election campaigns of 1968 against Vice-President Hubert Humphry was more effective on the drums of my ears than the rhetorics of Falwell who just had changed Nixon’s slogan from the “Silent Majority” of 1968 to “Moral Majority”,in 1980 election for Reagan.

Please read my last post,addressed to Sepharad,with regards to freedom of speech.

Thank you for calling my attention to my error,in calling the “Moral Majority” used by Falwell as “Silent Majority” used by Nixon. Taking your time to make the correction is Highly appreciated,indeed.

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By Sodium, August 12, 2009 at 10:29 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: Sepharad,August 11 at 6:23 pm.

Sepharad,

I am not going to quote and unquote some of your comments to inform you once more of what I was aiming at,because of lack of time,on my part. And my wife is coming back home this evening,after spending a few days with our children at my son house,under the care of my daughter-in-law who happened to be a Practitioner Nurse with Advanced degrees.

Please read carefully the 6th paragraph of your above Re. It starts with “One possible course etc…”

What I am after is all there in that paragraph of yours. Therefore,you have understood what I was trying to convey to you and others who were interested. And your impression that I want to deny the right of expression of a hate speech based on evil intent is incorrect. If I gave that impression,I regret that. All of this boils down to my intention to treat those fascist hoodlums with the same poisonous medicines they always try to force into our throats,because we are a bunch of nice and passive people. Enough is Enough. We have to stand-up to their ugly behaviors,even if we have to act like them. They must be stopped by a hook or crook before it is too late. Humanity has suffered enough because of their hatred.

At any rate,thank you for sharing your views with me. Most appreciated. And try to put your admirable humanity above your ideology,if you can….

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By Folktruther, August 12, 2009 at 10:00 am Link to this comment

Sepharad accurately summarizes the class and race historical tendency in the US, and agrees that birthers are driven by racism.  Her suggestion for countering disruption in progressive meetings is disrupting Conservative ones.

This is a HORRIBLE idea.  It is a fascist idea which is understandable since Sepharad is a Zionist facsist disguished under a liberal coating.  What mutual disruption leads to is total incommunication and consequently institutionalized irrationality decided fianally by violence.

Sepharad’s intellect and knowlege, combined with her identification with evil, influences susceptable Zionists like Inherit who display a courageous cretinism, like the other Zionist lemmings.  His rules for public meetings would destroy them.

Generally leftist meetings are often disrupted by the right, not infrequently instigated by a Democratic capitalist government.  The ususal response is a number of courteous bouncers who eject, peacefully preferably, the disrupters.  A large number of bodies can substitute effectively for a few bouncers with weapons.

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By Sodium, August 12, 2009 at 9:41 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: Night-Gaunt,August 11 at 2:00 pm

Quote
=====

Sodium: We are 9/10ths there.

Unquote
========

Well,Night-Gaunt,I am willing to put my faith in the 10 percent remaining of the American decency,ideals and resilience to navigate the American ship through the obvious current storm…..

I tried to get the link you so graciously provided in your above Re,but for unknown reasons to me I could not get it. Perhaps,the problem is with my computer-internet provider, since I had requested some restrictions on what I received because I did allow my eight year old grandchild to use my computer once in a while. This is just a guess on my part because I do not know the real reasons.

I have appreciated reading your posts wherever I could find them. Thank you for your time and efforts. Please keep-up your splendid views coming.

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By Sodium, August 12, 2009 at 8:59 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: MarthaA,August 11 at 12:44 pm.

I completely agree that steps must be taken,as you put it,“to combat corporations taking control of the goverment.”

The question is: What kind of steps and how?

Thank you for sharing your views with me. Please,never stop posting. Your time and efforts are most appreciated.

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By Sodium, August 12, 2009 at 7:22 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

CONTINUATION OF MY LAST POST.
=============================

The following information should have been appeared at the END of my last post,but TruthDig could not allow more than 4,000 words,maximum,to be published per one post. So,I was compelled to delete them from my last post. Hence,they are posted here for the benefit of those who are interested in reaching,or rather coming close to the “truth” about the phrase,“natural born citizen”.

References as appeared in the QUOTED SEGMENT of my last post entitled,“Subject: More about Natural Born Citizen”:

[13] Jill Pryor,The Natural-Born Citizen Clause and presidential Eligibility: An Approach for Resolving Two Hundred Years of Uncertainity.

[14] Westell Willoughby,American Political Science Review,The Authority of Vattel,1914,P.383.

[15] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born_citizen#Various_other_opinions

I do hope that all of the above references will prove helpful to those who are interested in pursuing the “truth”.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 12, 2009 at 5:59 am Link to this comment

Seph hits a key point:

How do we shut down disruption without shutting down dissent?  It is an old Fascist tactic developed by Mussolini to use the freedoms of our society against us.  As Mussolini well understood, to shut down his screaming mobs was just as good as letting them shut down debate, because he could then claim “Our freedom of speech is being threatened!”

Yet hecklers have long been hustled out of rallies and town meetings—now there is an organized army of them.  Their object is to heckle and to SHUT DOWN DEBATE!

Arlen Specter faced this yesterday despite having a fixed format AND control of the microphones.

Unfortunately, I think the only way to control this is with several steps:
1) Limit “town hall meetings”. We all know they are nothing like the mythical ones that set town policies.
2) Set formal question and answer formats such as:
  a) Assign numbers to questioners like they do at deli counters.
  b) Only allow a question to proceed for, say 45 or 1 minute before cutting the mike off—and have a BIG timer so the rules are there for everyone.
  c) Do not allow follow up questions or allow only one follow-up.
3) Make it VERY clear that anyone not following this format will be cut off.
4) Make it clear that any disturbance will immediately result in ejection and arrest.
5) Use microphones and amplification to drown out hecklers.
6) Rigorously train meeting moderators on correct and acceptable behavior regarding cutting off disruptions.
7) Have independent monitors present to act as watchdogs on the moderators.
8) Stick to this format rigorously. Defend it, but don’t waste time explaining it.

We don’t have to tolerate fascist disruption techniques from either the Right or the Left, but we do have to protect legitimate questioners’ right petition and to dissent.

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By Sodium, August 12, 2009 at 12:30 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Subject: More About The Natural Born Citizen.

The following presentation is a response to those who are attempting to disqualify President Obama as a legitimitely and lawfully being elected President of the United States of America on November 4,2008. It is taken from Wikipedia,the free encyclopedia:

Quote
======

Some argue that the phrase “natural born citizen” is distinguished as a seperate legal entity from the phrase “U.S.Citizen” in Article Two of the United States Constitution. While it is true that “natural born citizen” is not defined anywhere within the text of the Constitution and that the Constitution makes use of the phrase “citizen” and “natural born citizen,Supreme Court Decision from United States v.Wong Kim Ark to the present have considered the distinction to be between natural-born and naturalized citizenship.

Most legal scholars believe that the phrase “natural born citizen” is derived from the works of William Blackstone and depends on the legal doctrine of Jos Soli. For example,in her 1988 article in the Yale Law Journal,Jill Pryor wrote,“It is well settled that ‘native-born’citizens,those born in the United States qualify as natural born.”[13]

A distinct minority view is that “natural born citizen” requires two citizen-parents.This view is based on the work of Emerich de Vattel,specifically his “Law of Nations”,which among other things expressed the international law view that citizenship followed the doctrine of Jus Sanguinis-that the citizenship of the child was determined by that of its parents. While Vattel was influential in his views of the relations of nation-states in international law,there is no evidence that his views on citizenship were influential to the founders.[14]

Chester Arthur(born of an American mother and Irish father,purported birthplace of Canada) was sworn in as President,however his status as a “Natural born citizen” was challenged because he was born with British citizenship[15](therefore not jus sanguinus) and it is contended,on foreign soil(therefore not jus soli). Some argue that those born abroad to U.S. citizens are not eligible to ascend to the Presidency(not jus soli),since an act of the United States Congress such as the Naturalization Act may not overrule the Constitution(see “Natural born citizen” as presidential qualification). Presidential candidates George W.Romny(born in Mexico),Barry Goldwater and John McCain(born in U.S. territories),were never seriously challanged on the basis of their “natural born” citizenship,but no candidate falling under this classification has ever actually become President.

Unquote
========

Based on the content of the above quote,one may reach the following conclusions:

* The phrase “natural born citizen” is not defined anywhere in the U.S. Constitution. Therefore,any definition given is subject to suspicion-what is the motive behind it?

* Why bother now about the definition of the phrase “natural born citizen” when the election is over more than nine months ago? Was it,perhaps,on the assumption that John McCain would win? Well MacCain lost and conceded gracefully to President Obama? Why not emalute McCain’s grace and accept the result of the election as the majority of Americans wanted to be?

* According to the authoritative,the Yale Law Journal in 1988,“It is well settled that ‘native born citizens’,those born in the United States qualify as “natural born.”

* The view that claims that the “natural born citizen” requires two-citizen parents belong to a “distinct minority”. Qeuastion: Why should the view of the MAJORITY be subject to the whim of the Minority of scholars? Why,Why,Why?

* President Chester Arthur who was born to American mother and Irish father provides support to President Obama’s case,in the sense it is a precedent-it had occurred in the American history before even Obama was born.

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By mike112769, August 11, 2009 at 3:49 pm Link to this comment

1776reloaded is right.

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By DBM, August 11, 2009 at 3:28 pm Link to this comment

Thanks Sodium ... a thoughtful and pertinent update. 

To nitpick just a fraction “The Silent Majority” was Nixon’s term.  Jerry Falwell referred to his “Moral Majority”.  No matter ... the point is that they are neither moral nor a majority.  This is the same as the “Christian Right” political movement in general.  They are neither Christian nor right.

The move to corporate control (Fascism) is very much advanced and the Birthers are just a small indication of the problem.  The egalitarianism you mention has been under a concerted attack since 1980 and the U.S. is now approaching 3rd world standards of rich/poor disparity.

The problem with restricting the activities of the organised “brown-shirt” type disruptions at Town Halls, the noise of the “Birther” movement and the whipping up of racist xenophobic sentiments in general is how to do it without unintended consequences.  The 14th amendment was supposed to protect the rights of newly freed slaves.  It has instead been used to cement the rights of corporations as if they were natural persons (immortal amoral and sociopathic natural persons!). 

To restrict the Birthers and their ilk through legal means would open the door to the further repression of dissent in general.  Not a good thing when the great majority of dissenters are peace activists or ecological groups or workers’ unions.

Let “Cluster Fox News” cover the Birthers as if they make sense.  Let Lou Dobbs drag CNN into the mire of giving this sort of inanity credence.  Their viewers will eventually self-select.

My personal opinion is that the root of the problem could be addressed through campaign finance reform and restrictions on media conglomeration ... not easy but nonetheless necessary.

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By Sepharad, August 11, 2009 at 3:23 pm Link to this comment

Sodium, You’ve focused on several of the most dangerous reasons that we HAVE to take the “birthers” seriously.

Re egalitarianism—This bulwark of any republic or democracy is already severely undermined in this country 1) by the very real class divisions and 2) by the ethnic or racial divisions.

The first of these, class, is burgeoning at a rate we haven’t seen since the “Gilded Age”, with a small elite becoming richer and richer, the middle class shinking daily, and middle, working, and unemployed becoming poorer and more numerous as I type this. Money and power are moving up a narrower and narrower funnel, and at some point that money will enable that power to put a cap on the tip of the funnel to prevent any threats, any permeability from getting through. The power will be exercised to maintain the status quo.

The second of these elements, ethnic group and race, are increasingly being used to provide distraction and prevent unity that might threaten the power elite holding and shifting and squeezing the status quo. I see the “birthers” as a magnet attracting the kind of people for whom the category “hate speech” was invented.

But, Sodium, I don’t see how it is possible to suppress “hate speech” without creating a precedent for suppressing “decent speech” as supporters of both consider such speech their Constitutionally-guaranteed right to free speech.

One possible course, rather than suppressing hate speech and suggested by the brillian Eco’s term “coagulation” theory, your “iron against iron”, would be to counter it where it arises by equally skillfully coordinated mobs of individuals scattereed in the audience, who are equally loud and obnoxious in their interruptions, showing up everywhere the “birthers” and their echos are and pre-empting or if not then at least countering their ugly assertions in the same coin.

This is not something we are used to doing. But if someone was trying to come into your house and harm your family, you might be excused for reacting juat as violently as the intruder.

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, August 11, 2009 at 11:00 am Link to this comment

By bogi666, August 10 at 3:23 pm #

DBM, scum and the crap of vegetarians rise to the top.

What bug is up your ass? It should float to the top that and its color and texture are as important as everything that goes in. It shows your body is functioning normally. Scum as you call it is algae and most of them are very important to the ecology of lakes. DBM I have no comment on.

Also why are you for violence? That isn’t healthy and does not good, but it does do bad.

Sodium we are 9/10ths there now. Our egalitarianism is so lost in the meritocracy of position and brown nosing and if you aren’t for me you are against me. Not including racism on all sides and sexism still alive and chomping at the bit to come out biting. We are still fractured and that is what the Cabal bank on if not promote in an hundred different ways. See http://www.truthout/080908A?n which shows just what people like Krugman is missing in the economy and how close we are to a crushing Greater Depression than the one we are in. Yes we are in a Depression. It is just called a Recession to protect us.

The Constitution is cut into pieces and much of it is ignored or turned against us. Note our military and secret and not so secret gulags both here and abroad. Torture is still in use, there are other means than the water drowning kind.

We are seeing the coagulation going on big time with the Republicans right now and the facile way the Democrats are not stopping the Disruptors from doing their thing. Both our major and allowed parties are the walking dead. It is only their stranglehold on the media access and funding that keeps other more viable parties from really having a chance. The only reason.

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By MarthaA, August 11, 2009 at 9:44 am Link to this comment

Sodium,

Your posts are appreciated by this poster.  Steps have to be taken by our government while it is not too late to combat corporations taking complete control of the government.

I understand from one of the articles I read on the net, that the White House has now convened a War Room to study what to do about this Right-Wing manipulation of the common population against their own best interest toward fascism.

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By Sodium, August 11, 2009 at 2:16 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: Sepharad,August 9 at 1:30 am.

Quote
======

I am worried about the birthers because they and the rest of the brownshirts that mob town hall meeting are smart enough to scatter themselves among the audiance and adhere to to sophisticated anything-to-stop-the-the speaker tactics such a way that any attempt to stop them sound like an attempt to quash freedom of speech.

Unquote
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Sepharad,

I do understand your concern and I do share it for several reasons,including yours.

As to freedom of speech,there is a free speech based on decent intent and there is a hate speech based on evil intent. To equalize the two under the pretext of freedom of speech is not only naive but also very dangerous. The proof for that is the essence of your comments quoted above,about the brownshirters and birthers. It is so obvious to me that the brownshirters COAGULATE around their kind,the birthers. The response to that must be another COAGULATION,equal in force and opposite in direction,precisely as The Third Law of Motion,as described by Isaac Newton. Or,if you remember,apply the concept of “Only Iron can bend Iron” to defeat their COAGULATION while it is still in development or still in the buds. I have attempted to accomplish just that in my last and earlier post before this one.

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By Sodium, August 11, 2009 at 12:32 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Subject: Fascist Shifts and Fascist Coagulation.

At first,I did feel that the whole “Birthers” noise or fabrication or distraction was way,way beneath my personal dignity to honor it with a response. After reading some of the posts on this thread,particularly the posts that did not deviate from the topic at hand,I have realized that my initial reaction was wrong and I should try to contribute something to the discussion,however,it might be small.

The US is not about to embrace fascism. At least,not yet. However,there are TRENDS pushing hard towards fascism. If these TRENDS are remained unchecked and undefeated in the buds,America may end-up a fascist country,exactly like Mussolinic Italy,or Hitlerian Germany or Stalinic Soviet Union or like any of the variety dictatorships of the Third World. Please do not tell me that it will not happen here because I do not believe you. I am fully convinced that it can happen in any society as the required ingredients and environment prevail. 

What has saved the US,sofar,from falling completely under the pressure of many TRENDS for fascism is two major factors:

Factor one:
===========
The egalitarian nature of the American society. But,how long such a society will remain egalitarian is anybody’s guess. Who Knows??

Factor Two:
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The US Constitution as a living document. All it takes another like Cheney/Bush’s administration to transform the living document into a dead one.

What the “Birthers” are doing now is an integral part of what has been taken place since “The Silent Majority” of the late Rev.Jerry Falwell had succeeded legimitely in putting their “darling” in the White House,in the 1980s. However,to simplify the diversity of the issues at hand,an attempt will be made to confine my comments to what took place in the last eight years: Cheney/Bush’s years.

In her best selling book entitled"The End Of America”,Naomi Wolf states that fascism infiltrates a society incrementally to produce gradually,in time,what she calls “Fascist Shift” through which fascists end-up in power,ruling the society/country. The “TRENDS” may become “FASCIST SHIFTS” through the following means:

* Invoke an External and Internal Enemy.
* Establish Secret Prisons.
* Establish Security Industrial Complex.
* Develop Paramilitary Force as Thugs.
* Surveil Ordinary Citizens.
* Infiltrate Citizen Group.
* Arbitrarily Detain and Release Citizens
* Target Key Indivisuals.
* Pressure on Artists and Entertainers.
* Pressure on Civil Servants.
* Restrict the Press.
* Induce False News and Forged Documents.
* Cast Criticism as Espianage.
* Cast Dissent as Treason.
* Subvert the Rule of Law.

All of the above means are in her book. For details,please consult her book.

Similarly,in his book entitled “Five Moral Pieces” Umberto Eco,an Italian writer and academic gives 14 characteristics of fascism. He call them the “Eternal Features” of fascism. According to Eco,only one “Eternal Feature” is needed to start fascism,since some or all of the other “Eternal Features” will eventuall “COAGULATE” around the initiating “ETERNAL FEATURE”.

For me,using the word “COAGULATE” by Eco to express facilitating power in the development of Fascism is as brilliant as using the words “FASCIST SHIFT” by Wolf for the same development.

Therefore,the “Birthers” are only one form of the many “Eternal Features” or characteristics of fascism and must be confronted and defeated legally and soundly lest they develop into a “Fascist Shift” and the ultimate “COAGULATION” takes hold of all of us.

Push For Peace,regardless of the odds.

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By bogi666, August 10, 2009 at 12:23 pm Link to this comment

DBM, scum and the crap of vegetarians rise to the top.

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By DBM, August 10, 2009 at 5:34 am Link to this comment

ITW - re corrupt states…

Only half joking, I have to ask:  This measure is based on corruption CONVICTIONS?  How about places where corruption is not caught or not prosecuted or has been made legal?

I suspect that D.C. and Wall Street would rise to the top like cream ... but that’s only a guess. smile

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By MarthaA, August 9, 2009 at 10:13 pm Link to this comment

What are the birthers really after”

What is subjective sophist propaganda for? 

The Right-Wing REPUBLICAN EXTREMISTS pay their minions of subjective sophist propagandists many MILLIONS of dollars a year to turn the population away from objective thinking—- to make facts insignificant, but objective facts are all that is significant.

What did CORPORATIONS and ADOLPH HITLER gain by the use of subjective sophist propaganda?

Answer these questions and you will know what the birthers are after.  Because nearly the exact same scenario that happened in Germany before corporations took over the Weimar Republic and appointed Adolph Hitler, is happening now.  Remember, George W. Bush was appointed.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 9, 2009 at 7:52 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, August 9 at 6:34 pm #

New Jersey only the ninth most corrupt state, Inherit?  I congratulate you.  I suppose.  I didn’t know there was a corruption scale.  could I ask you what the most and least corrupt states are, and who ranks them?
*************************************************

Go back to the Bob Braun article I cited in one of the threads on the 44 arrested.  You’ll see that the rating is on corruption convictions per 100,000 persons…if a state with 860,000 persons has 11% of the number of corruption convictions as New Jersey (with 8.6 million) then that state is more corrupt than NJ—10% of the population, but 11% of the convictions.  Simple.

Besides, there’s always Texas, Louisiana and Illinois to point to!  Hey, comparing Blago to McSleezy is like comparing Bernie Madoff to a purse snatcher!

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By CaptRon, August 9, 2009 at 5:50 pm Link to this comment

Real simple for me in regard to a Birther. I would take Obama as my President even if he was born out of country (I know this would not be in line with the constitution but so is discrimination & the Birthers seem to have their own interpretation & so can I). I also think we could solve this (OK not solve but make this fair) by sending Rush Limbaugh to Kenya on the exchange program. Maybe Mr.Oxycontin would have a change of mind.

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By Folktruther, August 9, 2009 at 3:34 pm Link to this comment

New Jersey only the ninth most corrupt state, Inherit?  I congratulate you.  I suppose.  I didn’t know there was a corruption scale.  could I ask you what the most and least corrupt states are, and who ranks them?

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By Louise, August 9, 2009 at 2:16 pm Link to this comment

What Are the Birthers Really After?

Unearned income. Unearned power. But most of all attention. Stupid people need that. Racists need that. Troublemakers need that. Why else do we see mobs, and pushy people?

However, decent, hardworking, honest people need attention too. But if fighting a mob is required to get a word in, or an answer to a question, decent, hardworking, honest people will leave. Which is perhaps the best tool we have. If nobody shows up to feed the mob, what will they do?

I don’t know, maybe start breaking windows and turning over cars. So yes, they are dangerous, but ANY MOB is potentially dangerous. Beyond that, racists, fools and dumbbells just simply are. And greedy politicians, hungry for even more unearned power will always court the racists, fools and dumbbells, and encourage mob mentality.

Now, even mainstreammedia is trying to ignore them, so they post their idiocy on U-tube!

OK, just for shits and giggles hunt their postings down and see if you can find someone you know, you can then send them an email suggesting they lose weight. Or buy better underwear. Or find a hairdresser that knows how to give a perm without causing pink ... or baldness.

Fortunately U-tube can not capture smell. 

There is a measure of comfort in the knowledge that the great majority of the mobsters are right-wing,
so it’s not difficult to figure out where the greedy politicians who hunger for even more unearned power are hunkered down. Right there, on the “right” side of the aisle.

So lets make the “cons” squirm. Lets make them prove once and for all how truly useless they are. Because now that they’ve used their hateful lies to insight mobs, they don’t know how to control the mobs they’ve insighted. As witness by yesterdays “con” efforts to defend themselves. After tiresomely repeating they aren’t responsible, and convincing no-one, they went on to prove they can start trouble but haven’t got a clue how to stop trouble.

But then we already knew that didn’t we. I mean after all, they gave us Bush and president Cheney, didn’t they?

So while I hope against hope, nobody gets hurt and nothing gets destroyed by these out of control, mobsters for hire, I say let them scream themselves silly! The longer they scream, the closer we come to completely unmasking the liars and thieves who call themselves conservative.

Even better, the more they offend and impede people honestly trying to learn the facts, the more intensely those offended will come to dislike all republican leadership. And that can only be a good thing.

And the same can be said for the red dogs in Blue drag. Creating disinformation plays into the hands of the mob. So maybe we’ll see them all get booted out of office!

Oh happy day! smile

And I refuse to blame Israel. We manage to produce idiots without help from anyone!

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By Inherit The Wind, August 9, 2009 at 12:34 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, August 9 at 12:26 pm #

There’s LEAD in the New Jersey water, Inherit?  Well, that certainly explains a lot.

Mozzer, when people are afraid they regress and identify with a strong leader who will Protect them, like their fathers did when they were children.  The Holocaust has regressed the Jewish people who don’t understand, and don’t want to understand, that Israel-Amerian policy is sucidal for Israel and disastrous for the US.

The Israeli Supreme Court recently ruled that Arab families who have lived in their homes in Jerusulem since 1920 be evicted and the houses turned over to Jews.  They had some papers, forged or not, that claimed that their forbears had owned the homes.  If we go back to who owned what centuries ago, then we abandon any claim to justice or law and settle everything with guns.
********************************************

Lead in the water? Must be! People here walk down the middle of the street when there’s a perfectly good sidewalk.  I just had to beep my horn at a guy 30 minutes ago—he was walking dead center down a parking lot and didn’t even notice the p/u coming up behind him—that he was obstructing—and a perfectly good sidewalk 15’ away. 

However, we are only the 9th most corrupt state in the Union, far from the most corrupt.  Then again, we pay more of our taxes and get less in return than the other 49 states ($.61 back for every $1 sent to DC in income tax).

I whole-heartedly agree that Arabs who are in their homes should not be displaced and, if they are, the Israeli Constitution is probably being violated.  I also believe that Israel MUST enforce its own Constitution that says ALL Israelis are equal under the law—ALL—Jew or Arab or Welsh Protestant, as long as they are a citizen—and Avigdor Lieberman’s citizen-stripping proposal is something despicable—I hope he goes to jail as the corrupt thug he is.

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By Folktruther, August 9, 2009 at 9:26 am Link to this comment

There’s LEAD in the New Jersey water, Inherit?  Well, that certainly explains a lot.

Mozzer, when people are afraid they regress and identify with a strong leader who will Protect them, like their fathers did when they were children.  The Holocaust has regressed the Jewish people who don’t understand, and don’t want to understand, that Israel-Amerian policy is sucidal for Israel and disastrous for the US.

The Israeli Supreme Court recently ruled that Arab families who have lived in their homes in Jerusulem since 1920 be evicted and the houses turned over to Jews.  They had some papers, forged or not, that claimed that their forbears had owned the homes.  If we go back to who owned what centuries ago, then we abandon any claim to justice or law and settle everything with guns.

Natanyahu’s sister in law was arrested in protesting this travesty of justice.  She said,

  “There are no words to dkscribe the injustice and folly of this.  We are walking with open eyes into the abyss.”

This is the simple truth of the matter.  By Jews, espeically American Jews, do not ally themselves with the Palestinians to combat this injustice and folly, although they are beginning to in Israel. 
And they are being shot and beaten when they demonstrate just as the Arabs are by the Ziofascist government. And Jews like Falk are imprisoned and Jews like Finklestein prevented from entering Israel. 

The Ziofascists do not care about the Jewish people, they identify with Jewish power.

And they identify with a death ideology, including their own, to exhibit that power.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 9, 2009 at 7:02 am Link to this comment

Folktruther, August 9 at 2:55 am #

Inherit, I don’t want to tear you, or anyone, apart.  I want to know what will change your worldview.  I know that you don’t want Israel to be a pitbull for the US, BUT YOU DON’T COMBAT THE PITBULLNESS.  You combat the people who DO combat Israeli racism and ethnic cleansing.

Zionism is a Jewish nationalism that has been hijacked by ziofasscists. They are a danger to the whole world, since American zionists are the pitbulls of the American ruling class aggression.  Whether there is a one state or two state solution, no leftist advocates the slaughter of Israelis.  But the leaders must be fought politically and military so they will compromise away the Ziofascist and ethnic cleansing tendency.
************************************************

Interesting word—“Ziofascist”.  What you “Ziofascist” is what I would call the Jingoists in Israel.  So far, we are on the same page.  I only question the assertion that the “Ziofascists” have totally usurped Zionism. Perhaps we can agree that the Ziofascists are after three things:

1) Expansion of Israel to control pretty much everything west of the Jordan River.
2) A theocratic dictatorship, similar to the Taliban or the religious power in Iran.
3) Removing any non-Jew, primarily Arab Muslim from that “Greater Israel”.

For the record and I’ve said this many, MANY times, I am TOTALLY against all 3, 100%.
So it really pisses me off that you CONTINUE with the following crap, which you KNOW is not true:

************************************************
Just as Garth has been indoctrinated with anti-semitism when he was young, you have been indoctrinated with ziofascism.
************************************************

With most of the Jewish population.  Just as Germany and Italy developed a supernationalism as a product of uniting separated populations and states, so Israel has.  So it must be fought, just as some Germans and Italians fought fascism in their countries.
*************************************************

Now you are making sense again, but you miss the most important point: Jewish Paranoia which is just as real and just as strong (if not stronger) than Russian Paranoia.

**************************************************
I’m perfectly willing to have a beer, oe many, but not in New Jersey.  I need all my bodily parts intact.
***************************************************

Don’t worry—we’ll only tear out one kidney at most…

Actually, it’s not the transplant thieves you have to worry about—it’s the lead in the water, the 10 trillion allergens native solely to NJ (Moving here I developed allergies I never knew I had), and, of course, the crazy drivers from New York, Pennsylvania and Connecticut.

Garth—Apology accepted—and please accept mine as well. Drinking and posting isn’t as dangerous as drinking and driving, but it comes close!

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By bogi666, August 9, 2009 at 5:40 am Link to this comment

mike112… Actually I read some advice not to use apostrophes as a matter of writing discipline. Sounds like good advice in my case. As for being corrected on my english, if that’s the worst thing that happens to me it will be a good day. You’re right it’s best to keep things light.

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By Outraged, August 9, 2009 at 1:05 am Link to this comment

Re: diamond

Quote: “My apologies Outraged,”

None needed.  We be good.  Although, it is very nice and generous of you to say so.  Thank you.

I’m sure it appeared that ITW and I were attempting to “ream you a new one”, however this is not the case.  Apparently, ITW posted, while I was composing my comment, therefore I was unaware of ITW’s post, truthfully….. until I posted mine.

Such is life.  I am sorry if it appeared that the both of us were “calling you on the carpet” so to speak.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

We be good.

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By Mozzer75, August 9, 2009 at 12:17 am Link to this comment

Folktruther…many thanks are in order…you have outlined the precarious, yet “strong”, relationship between the US and Israel flawlessly. You have stated facts while hinting at possible “rub-my-back” relationships that actually have far too much influence on American foreign policy. I cannot site it verbatim, but I know Scott Ritter did an article some time ago about how US intelligence in the Middle East was so lacking and non-informative, that we just basically started depending on Israeli intelligence for MOST of our information; and, I believe, these facts were garnered BEFORE the commencement of the “war” in Iraq. Check it out!

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By Folktruther, August 8, 2009 at 11:55 pm Link to this comment

Garth, you want to be careful of that gin; its poisonous.  I suggest you smoke grass like the rest of us.

When I was young I went with a girl for five years who was raised an Irish Catholic.  she wasn’t at all religious but cassionally she would come out with the most amazing anti-Semitic assertions.  She learned them as part of the religion when she was young and, since she largely ignored the religion as an adult, she still held them without being consciously aware of it.

Many of these statements were utterly absurd. After a while when she would come out with an anti-semitic assertion, she would catch herself in mid-statement and start to laugh before she finished it.  She realized that she had been indoctrinated in bigotry that was largely absurd.

We are all like that, Garth, especially in the US.  The culture and the mainstream truth tradition is racist and we all imbibe the racism of one kind or another with our mother’s milk.  We are miseducated, misinformed and misentertained from childhood in one form of racism or another.

You happen to be have been indoctrinated in anti-semitism, which you are now freeing yourself from.  Far more prevalent, and more vicious, is the racism against dark skinned peoples.  Which you help combat.  Well, that’s the way people are.  Dostoievsky has Dimitri say in THE BROTHERS KARAMUSOV that “man is too broad.  I would have made him narrower.”

Not me.  I like people they way they are.  Interesting.

Inherit, I don’t want to tear you, or anyone, apart.  I want to know what will change your worldview.  I know that you don’t want Israel to be a pitbull for the US, BUT YOU DON’T COMBAT THE PITBULLNESS.  You combat the people who DO combat Israeli racism and ethnic cleansing.

Zionism is a Jewish nationalism that has been hijacked by ziofasscists. They are a danger to the whole world, since American zionists are the pitbulls of the American ruling class aggression.  Whether there is a one state or two state solution, no leftist advocates the slaughter of Israelis.  But the leaders must be fought politically and military so they will compromise away the Ziofascist and ethnic cleansing tendency.

Just as Garth has been indoctrinated with anti-semitism when he was young, you have been indoctrinated with ziofascism.  With most of the Jewish population.  Just as Germany and Italy developed a supernationalism as a product of uniting separated populations and states, so Israel has.  So it must be fought, just as some Germans and Italians fought fascism in their countries.

I’m perfectly willing to have a beer, oe many, but not in New Jersey.  I need all my bodily parts intact.

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By Mozzer75, August 8, 2009 at 11:03 pm Link to this comment

All “birthers” are now by definition outright racists. There simply is no further excuse. Unfortunately, people of this ilk have chosen this particular path to attack the progresive/reformist agenda of their President, and, since only a fingerful of their affiliation renounce them, they should have to answer for such nonsense. However, this has been only the LOWEST level of an attack on our President’s hopes for the nation, and has been launched to lend a sort of underbelly credibility to further nonsensical attacks on his plans for both our health and economic systems. It is a divide-and- conquer-combined-with-distraction-and-appeal-to ignorance strategy on the part of NOT the Right, but the Republicans, en total (Why haven’t Republican constituents realized yet that it is their own party, those whom they think CHAMPION them, that have the most contempt for them?). A war on all fronts when we are most vulnerable? This is not only Republican Party strategy, but their throw-the-baby-in foreign policy, as well.

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By ChaoticGood, August 8, 2009 at 11:01 pm Link to this comment

Birther’s want to show those libruls a thing or two.  It really doesn’t matter about what.  They consider themselves pure in their ideology and that is what matters to them.  They are the American Taliban.
The thing that they fear most is the those dirty libruls led by that foreigner president, might actually do something good for America, thus discrediting their ideology.
True believers don’t require facts, just a mob of like minded others to support them.  They just want to feel good but don’t want to take drugs to get their “high”.
You notice that this never happened with Bush, who was a torturer in College, a deserter in the Air National Guard, a failed businessman (many times), an alcoholic, a drug addict, a warmonger, and a who knows what else.
That is because they think he shares their ideology and they must protect the dogma above all else.  Of course, Bush does not share any of that dogma.  He is just what he seems to be. A spoiled fratboy, nothing more.
Obama could show any document or like Bill Maher said, he could show a video of his birth with Don Ho playing hawaiian songs in the background and that would not be enough for the Birthers.  You cannot satisfy them.  They are the same people who are disrupting town hall meetings about healthcare.  Like one of them said, “you keep that government sponsored healthcare away from me, but don’t touch my Medicare”

If they had just one more neuron, they could have a synapse.

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By Sepharad, August 8, 2009 at 10:36 pm Link to this comment

Inherit, Aug. 9, 12:12am post—agree with every word (though FT will not believe it, but I’ve finally stopped caring what he does or does not believe).

Am worried about the birthers because they and the rest of the brownshirts that mob town hall meetings are smart enough to scatter themselves among the audience and adhere to sophisticated anything-to-stop-the-speaker tactics in such a way that any attempt to stop them sounds like an attempt to quash freedom of speech.

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By dhfabian, August 8, 2009 at 10:32 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

On the subject of Israel, consider: Israel is a very small country, the sole Jewish nation on Earth, surrounded by vast Arab countries. If it is time for a separate Palestinian nation, why not allow it in land now occupied by any of the Arab nations? 

On concessions: Over the years, Israel has ceded a good-sized portion of the country, one chunk at a time, “for the sake of peace.”  Each time they have given up land, more was demanded. Obviously the goal is to wipe out the sole Jewish nation entirely.

Whatever you would call such an idea, don’t call it “justice”.

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By Outraged, August 8, 2009 at 9:38 pm Link to this comment

Re: Patriot

Your comment: “I’ll take your obfuscation as meaning you have no relevant reply.

Disagreeing with the government automatically means one makes death threats?


Where were you people born? Americans have an inherent common sense that is clearly lacking from this page.”

You claim to have Rep. Kagen as your representative as I do, which means we live in the same area.  If so, then you may be able to understand that I simply might be able to call “a spade a spade”, here.  Certainly you spew nonsense like the best of ‘em and when confronted are hostile and backtrack.  Very common in these here parts.

As per your statement, “I’ll take your obfuscation as meaning you have no relevant reply.”  I assume you mean regarding the birth certificate…. in this, I have shown…. as have others, the futility of your stance.  Still, on you rant.  Pres. Obama was throughly vetted in this regard by much more than your person, but you WILL NOT accept that, no matter the proof.

Let me give you a heads up…...... BARACK OBAMA is NOW President of the United States of America, this is something he ran for, and won.  I have seen that Pres. Obama goes the extra measure to keep the voice of the people foremost in his thoughts as he makes his decisions.  I like that about him, and for the most part his choices….. at least to my way of reasoning, have been good ones.  Now some may disagree, and this can be debated.

However, to have a group of malcontents repeatedly demand that ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL PEOPLE IN THE WORLD TODAY entertain their dim-witted conjecture regarding this non-existent issue, is pure folly.  Shut up Patriot, the WORLD doesn’t care for your antics, and neither do I.

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By garth, August 8, 2009 at 9:26 pm Link to this comment

ITW,

“I detest the Likud block, and hope that they will prosecute, convict and imprison Avigdor Lieberman. I think he is as much an enemy of Israel as Hamas or Hezbollah.  I hope the Israeli people will vote Netanyahu out of office and return to sane government, willing to rip down the illegal West Bank settlements and either move those people into Israel proper, or tell them they now are subject of the Palestinian state!”

That’s quite a statement. 

I, too, believe that a two state solution is the only viable path towards a lasting peace.

I also apologize to you for my anti-semitic remarks.  I think I used them in a response to one of your posts.  I should’ve heeded one of your previous posts, months ago, that it’s not a good idea to get on truthdig after imbibing.  I regret that my mistake was so ugly.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 8, 2009 at 9:12 pm Link to this comment

I am against the use of Israel as an attack dog in the US path toward imperialism.
****************************************************

Garth, you may not believe this, and I know that FT doesn’t, but I actually support this sentiment 100%.  I simply want Israel to co-exist with her neighbors, in peace and prosperity.

I detest the Likud block, and hope that they will prosecute, convict and imprison Avigdor Lieberman. I think he is as much an enemy of Israel as Hamas or Hezbollah.  I hope the Israeli people will vote Netanyahu out of office and return to sane government, willing to rip down the illegal West Bank settlements and either move those people into Israel proper, or tell them they now are subject of the Palestinian state!

I hope the Obama administration won’t take any crap from Netanyahu, and WILL enforce escalating pressure and punishment on Yahoo’s regime as it seeks to illegally expand Israeli territory.

But I do, most definitely, want Israel to survive.  I want it to survive as a democracy, to abide by its OWN Constitution and treat Israeli Arabs and Israeli non-Jews as what they are—full citizens with full rights and privileges.  Remember: According to the Israeli Constitution and laws, it is only in IMMIGRATION policies that Jews are treated differently—like every nation Israel has the right to determine its immigration policy.  We Americans are in NO position to criticize them, given OUR history.

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By dhfabian, August 8, 2009 at 8:41 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

History repeatedly shows that when things go bad, those who don’t have a clear understanding of the issues blame the Jews. Of course, they have most of the world’s wealth and power today, which would explain why Israel is as big as China and the leading economic force in the world today. Guess it’s time to update that old Protocol of the Elders.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 8, 2009 at 8:38 pm Link to this comment

I have warned before that the worse thing they could do to us is to produce false hope. It has been done and Obama is their agent. Just like the administrations going back to Reagan which started it all. The project to remove the republic and replace it with a theocratic corporate state and they are winning. [But to put in a new structure the old must be torn down.] Even if if doesn’t look like it. Now why would the health insurance agencies need to spend $1.4 million a day to fight something that isn’t happening? Maybe they see there will be a minor change that could be a problem to them, like lose a few million, so the lie machine must go on.

The Birthers are at heart and smoke a mirrors routine to keep us distracted while other things are happening, many other things. It doesn’t matter how many of the people going to them are sincere in their feelings. They have been manipulated into going under a false premise. Whipped up to a dangerous level with the recent violence. The rise in death threats to our first black president too is troubling. Many more times than the excreable Bush ever got.

We are in a very dangerous time for the Republic and I don’t see how we can get out of it in one piece.

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By garth, August 8, 2009 at 8:36 pm Link to this comment

I’m glad to brought this up.

“I certainly agree with you, Garth; who gives a shit where Obama was born. He sells out so much that we will probably regret that he was born at all.

The thing that gets me, though, is that you are a gutter anti-Semite.  (I beg your pardon.  I am not a gutter anti-semite.) Evern to the point to suspecting, on no evidence at all, that Zionists are behind the birthers. (In my post, I asked for her crumbs as she put it. I think any point of investigation is worth while.  It might prove to be empty, worthless. The right-wing people I talk to, the Catholics, are now retracting any anti semitic sentiment.) I agree with Inherit-not a common event- that racism motivates this movement, instigated by Mellon Scaife, etc, for American ruling class advantage.  (I’ve heard of Scaife and I wouldn’t put it past him, and it does make more sense in light of his past actions.) The traditional source of capitalist racism.

the curious thing is that you are a racist against Jews fighting-and I am with you on this- the looniness of right wingers motivated by racism against African-Americans.  I am not against Jews fighting.  I am against the use of Israel as an attack dog in the US path toward imperialism.  I want to derail the US and its goals of world domination.
People are certainly odd; its like trying to remain reasonable in a circus, among the clowns and tigers.  If one isn’t eaten one could laugh oneself to death.

Very witty.  I mean it.  But one thing I have to confess to you and I refer to my introductory comment, that I am glad you bought this up, is that I thought of your comments at first like ITW responds to them.  That you were a throwback to the 60s, you know the, “running dogs of yankee capitalist imperialism..” mold.  But you added that you taught your children not to believe what they were taught in school. I wondered, where do you go if all the information, anmely, the information received in school, points to a certain conclusion?  Then, I started opening my eyes and ears and started reading alternate histories.  Sure enough, I agree with you and I thank you for your clarity of thinking and I am thankful that I caught on.

I am not an anti semite.  The seeds of my remarks were in the Gin I was consuming (I should have heeded ITW’s advice in a previous post.) and the fact that I was brought up Catholic.  Pope John XXIII supposedly freed us from the doctrine that the Jews killed Christ.  I have long since abandoned any of that dogma.
What I am against, though, is war, lying governments, totalitarianism, fascism .....
I do apologize for my gutter-like remarks, and I thank you again for pointing others to what you are seeing.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 8, 2009 at 8:20 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, August 8 at 10:43 pm #

I certainly agree with you, Garth; who gives a shit where Obama was born. He sells out so much that we will probably regret that he was born at all.

The thing that gets me, though, is that you are a gutter anti-Semite.  Evern to the point to suspecting, on no evidence at all, that Zionists are behind the birthers.  I agree with Inherit-not a common event- that racism motivates this movement, instigated by Mellon Scaife, etc, for Ameriecan ruling class advantage.  The traditional source of capitalist racism.

the curious thing is that you are a racist against Jews fighting-and I am with you on this- the looniness of right wingers motivated by racism against African-Americans.

People are certainly odd; its like trying to remain reasonable in a circus, among the clowns and tigers.  If one isn’t eaten one could laugh oneself to death.
**********************************************

I think I’m gonna print this off and frame it. It may NEVER happen again.

I’ve said it before: As much as FolkTruther and I are at each other’s throats, trying rip each other apart, I’d STILL like to sit down and have a beer with the guy. After the fighting was over I’ll bet we’d have a hell of a lot of laughs!

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By garth, August 8, 2009 at 7:53 pm Link to this comment

One of the ads on Truthdig I noticed in the margins is one of dealing with anger on a blogsite.  One of the ways that used to anger me to no end was the feeling of being manipulated. 
When blogs and their journalistic contributors can take the time and make the effort to ferret out the truth and provide it in a readable, article, then I think the anger would subside.  I, for one,  would probably stand up and cheer.
One of the misdirections, Obama gave was his use of idea of hope.  Hope comes and it grows when there is reliable evidence and reporting of that evidence.

When you obliquely tell people to hope, well, in my language, and I think in most people’s vernacular after having been lied to would say, that’s bullsh-t!

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By Folktruther, August 8, 2009 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment

I certainly agree with you, Garth; who gives a shit where Obama was born. He sells out so much that we will probably regret that he was born at all.

The thing that gets me, though, is that you are a gutter anti-Semite.  Evern to the point to suspecting, on no evidence at all, that Zionists are behind the birthers.  I agree with Inherit-not a common event- that racism motivates this movement, instigated by Mellon Scaife, etc, for Ameriecan ruling class advantage.  The traditional source of capitalist racism.

the curious thing is that you are a racist against Jews fighting-and I am with you on this- the looniness of right wingers motivated by racism against African-Americans. 

People are certainly odd; its like trying to remain reasonable in a circus, among the clowns and tigers.  If one isn’t eaten one could laugh oneself to death.

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By garth, August 8, 2009 at 5:40 pm Link to this comment

I personally don’t give a shit where Obama was born, and if I did, what would it matter?  What I have noticed in the past few months with these so-called liberal contributors to Truthdig is that no one is willing to bring up the central issues and confront the Obama administration forthrightly.
He’s selling out to the Wall Street hedge funds with his caving in to the supposed right-wing and their demands.  No negotiating for drug prices, and a mandatory health insurance in the Public plan.  Give me a break!
They pick a nutty group of Senators, like they did under Bush with the this or that law and called it the Group of sSix or the Group of Thirteen. In that way, no one takes a serious political hit.  (They’re still scared of the voters, which is encouraging.) The news media covered it and the liberal reporters, so to speak, said these cowards are selling out.  Well, now we have a nut case group of six, Baucus of United Health, Nelson of PHRMA, Bayh of his own gargantuan ego and dreams of becoming President and I can’t think of the rest of these assholes off the top of my head, but I have had it with this made for tv news and the Senators with their professional hair styles prattling on like high school candidates for the year book staff and yammering about some arcane point of Senate rules.
Obama sold us out.  We’re headed for the edge and their boy and his troup are stepping off just before the whole fuckin’ thing goes over.
Who gives a shit if Obama was born in Hawaii or in Kenya?  I swear we’ll come to rue the day that he was ever born at all.
And I mean that in a good way.

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By diamond, August 8, 2009 at 2:33 pm Link to this comment

My apologies Outraged. I took you for one of those devious, wacko birthers and you’re no such thing. The whole birther project, as it seems you’ve realized, is a sneaky, disinformation campaign. The conservatives just hate not being the government and if they’re not the government someone, somewhere is going to pay. They have nothing against mob rule as long as they’re controlling the mob, as it seems they are at these ‘town hell’ meetings. All of these things come under the heading of psyops so you don’t need to be a genius to understand where the expertise to plan these things comes from. On the surface it just seems crazy but there’s method in their madness - and that’s what makes them dangerous.

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By garth, August 8, 2009 at 2:17 pm Link to this comment

Rachel,
I find your comment to be extremely interesting.

As follows:

By rachel, August 7 at 5:53 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

The driving force behind the birthers is a Zionist named Orly Tiatz who has conveniently left the country.

In my sick and twisted mind…it’s Israel causing trouble once more. Just as stated in the article…to create a minority extremist…“right wing extremist” to be the next boggie man…since they obviously can’t pin 9/11 on Bin Ladin.

This birther movement has Mossad written all over it.

BTW…I’m one of those conservatives you liberals hate so much. And even I can see there is a foreign country at work here. Just follow the bread crumbs.

——————————————————————-
I had lunch about a month ago with a guy I used to work for who happens to be right-wing extemist to the nth degree.  He told me that this issue would be gaining momentum. 
I thought it had died.  Obama’s mother is, after all, a US citizen.  Does that not matter or count at all?
I have mixed feelings for the Obama Presidency.  With all his talk about an open government and his insistence on doing the right thing in health insurance, he has repeatedly walked away from his campaign rhetoric and has acccepted deals with big PHRMA and with the health insurance.  Namely, there will be no negotiating for drug prices and the public plan, as they call it, will require a purchase of the health insurance that the Health Barons are peddling now.  All this will most assuredly lead to a complete collapse of the health system, as they like to refer to it.  The ones who will be affected the most will be working people who are just trying to hold things together as it is.
But getting back to your idea, what and where are the crumbs that lead back to the perpetrators of this idea?

I previously thought it was a one-party rule idea where the status quo decides that the Republicans, for now are going to look so foolish and so out of touch that Obama’s re-election is a sure thing.
Watch Palin.  She’ll run for as “third party” candidate and drain votes from the Republican right wing.

I want to explore this issue.  Now that you’ve brought up a very non-MSM interpretation of it.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 8, 2009 at 1:14 pm Link to this comment

mike112769, August 7 at 11:44 pm #

Louise: Amen!
Inherit: Not all birthers are racist. They are misguided and fearful of his politics, not his race.

**************************************

OK.  Then the ones that aren’t racist fall into two groups:
1) Cynical power-hunters, ie, the Karl Roves of the world.
2) Morons. Gullible morons.

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By Average Guy, August 8, 2009 at 10:54 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Here is what they want…......“Show me the real certicate with the doctor’s signature”.  One would think that chould end the conversation. Why won’t Obama produce that certificate?

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By Night-Gaunt, August 8, 2009 at 10:28 am Link to this comment

Rachel you can remove that chip from you shoulder, I don’t hate you, I don’t even know you! It would be interesting if there is some verification of your allegations. Now what would be the motivation for Israel to do this? Where do they benefit? Can you give some answers and maybe a link or two?

Personally I am skeptical simply because I see no reason to do it. The USA is their patron and shield in the world. It seems to me to be counterproductive to do that which could inhibit the USA working with them when they attack Iran. Unlike say what happened on 9/11/01 which certainly helped Israel.

It makes more sense for this to be local for reasons of whipping up violent tendencies in the more sensitive and bring out the military to protect the president and the Republic. While making it easier to trash the Republic in the same context! Insidious.

Also all presidential candidates are vetted by the FBI and Secret Service so anything in your closet is likely to come out to them.

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By 1776Reloaded, August 8, 2009 at 7:58 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I dug for some TRUTH about obama’s -ELIGIBILITY- to be President and here is what I found. ARTICLE II SECTION I CLAUSE V United states Constitution states: No Person except a NATURL BORN CITIZEN, or a CITIZEN of the United States, at the TIME of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President. A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN and a CITIZEN are NOT the same. NATURAL BORN CITIZEN defined is : One who is born of PARENTS that are BOTH United State citizen’s and that child is born within U.S.Mainlands. A CITIZEN defined is: One who is born on U.S. soil reguardless of the parents being Citizens or not or if one parent or both are U.S Citizens and has a child not on U.S. soil that parent or parents pass Citizenship to that child or if one emigrates to the United States they can become a U.S. Citizen and gain Citizen ship through Naturalization. Here is the BIG-ONE because barack hussein obama’s (AKA barry soetoro’s) FATHER was born in Kenya and was a BRITISH SUBJECT that was NOT a U.S. Citizen or ever applied for U.S. Citizenship barack obama is ineligable for Presidency PER THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION…...IT DOESN’T MATTER IF HE WAS BORN IN HAWAII OR NOT. WAKE UP!

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By James M. Martin, August 8, 2009 at 5:35 am Link to this comment

I think the Birthers are of two types, basically overlapping to an extent.  First, there are the Repubs who still can’t accept the fact that McCain did not win the election.  Second, there are those who cannot accept the fact that an African-American DID win.  Both groups are pathetic.  They do us a favor, though, by further marginalizing the GOP.  Sooner or later, the independent voter is going to associate this type of foolishness and the militancy of the people who are disrupting town hall meetings on Obama legislation with the GOP, which is already irrelevant and may wind up cast aside in the trash bin of history.

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By DHFabian, August 7, 2009 at 10:16 pm Link to this comment

What are some people thinking?  What would make them think that the entire federal government—including Republicans—would forget to thoroughly investigate ANY candidate to be certain that the candidate was legally qualified to run for office?
Law requires this. What would make anyone think that the federal government somehow doesn’t have full access to all information relevant to Obama’s qualifications, including citizenship/all birth information?

Where were the calls for John McCain’s birth certificate? John McCain, after all, wasn’t born in the US, but in the Panama Canal Zone. And what about former President Gerald Ford? He was adopted, so we don’t know whether his birth parents were citizens.
And when did we ever see the birth certificates of either President Bush’s?

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By jobangles, August 7, 2009 at 9:13 pm Link to this comment

After all the spin and BS is dissected, this is nothing more than the right trying to destroy this president, regarless of how it may effect the nation as a whole.  The leaders of this know that if they can stir up the lemmings to a fever pitch, they can destroy health care reform, and point to Obama and the Democrats as portrayers of that hated “socialism”.  And in the process make themselves look like the “saviors” of the nation.
The same tactic was used in the 2000 selection in Miami when the hoodlums disrupted the counting of votes there.  We’re wise to this and if they want to play rough, so be it. There is too much riding on this issue to let a handful of ignorant sheeple destroy it for the greedy insurance companies and their paid off reps in congress.

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By mike112769, August 7, 2009 at 8:44 pm Link to this comment

Louise: Amen!
Inherit: Not all birthers are racist. They are misguided and fearful of his politics, not his race.

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By Patriot, August 7, 2009 at 8:28 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Outraged:

I’ll take your obfuscation as meaning you have no relevant reply.

Disagreeing with the government automatically means one makes death threats?


Where were you people born? Americans have an inherent common sense that is clearly lacking from this page.


As to the racebaiting martha:


the Constitution EXPLICITLY bans the federal government from undertaking 99% of what Bush did and 100% of what Obama does.

anything NOT specifically enumerated in the Constitution as a power of the federal government, is NOT a power of said government.

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By DBM, August 7, 2009 at 8:11 pm Link to this comment

Hmmm ... I’m enjoying this.  It seems having the words “Obama” and “birth certificate” in a story attracts people to this site with very different views.

I am amused at all the strife over how to label each other.  Most amusingly, “Patriot” seems to struggle with all the labels MarthA strings together and but wants to attribute anything bad to the label “liberal” ... and shares his nickname with the “Patriot Act” (one of the most repressive pieces of legislation the U.S. has ever seen smile ).

Basically, I think there is a group of wealthy and (because of the arrangement of campaign contributions and PR) politically influential people are striving to advantage themselves at the expense of everyone else.  They get moral cover from the idea of “competition” (whether fair or not) and “trickle down” (so that being obscenely rich can be seen as some sort of public service).  They control both major political parties but are openly represented by the Republicans.

Relevant to this discussion, they use various “hot-button” non-economic issues (which they care not a jot about themselves) to manipulate a sizeable portion of the population to vote for them.  These issues include abortion, gay rights, civil rights (decreasing but still relevant) and immigration (which actually they benefit from because persecuted illegal aliens will work for less).  Things such as the validity of Obama’s presidency and all the trumped up rubbish they amassed about the Clintons are merely ammunition for the hard-of-thinking.

See?  No labels ... just a view of the world which I’m happy to discuss.  Having the “birthers” in this thread should make it interesting.  Do you guys feel manipulated?  IMHO you should ... look who gains from this controversy.  I suspect it ain’t you!!

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By Outraged, August 7, 2009 at 7:25 pm Link to this comment

Re: ITW

Thanks for the clarity. (lol)  But these things happen to the best of us.  I know I for one have done this very same thing (at least once, that’s all I’m admitting to…lol) only to find myself now wondering just how BEST to “put things aright.”

We be good.  You, me and diamond…. we be good.

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By Outraged, August 7, 2009 at 6:17 pm Link to this comment

Re: diamond

Your comment: “Outraged you’re an idiot. Go out and buy yourself a brain. My guess is that you belong to the ultra right and you’re a racist. Your real problem with Obama is that he’s black and people like you only want to disguise your racism by bleating about this birth certficate. The notice of his birth in 1961 was printed in a newspaper (remember them?) in HONOLULU. Last time I looked that was part of the United States so you don’t have a leg to stand on. Clearly your agenda is to discredit Obama’s presidency and since you can’t say he wasn’t elected, because unlike Bush he actually was, you run this completely fake line and you even have the hide to pretend to be outraged about it. You’re a disgrace and don’t flatter yourself that you’re a patriot. You’re something grubbier than that.”

I sense that quite possibly you misread my last post which was, for the most, A REPOST of Ted Swart’s post.  At the end, I did comment regarding his post(check again), I said:

****“Which btw, is using the exact same link from Wiki that I posted to you, which you say you read, then you used some of the material and ignored the rest.  That’s what I’m talking about.  I agree that there’s definitely a “can a worms” behind these claims of socialism and a supposed fraudulent birth certificate for Pres. Obama…. sure, it’s obvious there’s more to the claims than meets the eye.  The birth certificate has been verified numerous times, by legal as well as non-partisan groups, yet some outrightly refuse to accept these VERIFIED facts.”****

Although the thought of going out and buying a new brain is quite novel, wouldn’t that be great?  I could put this tired old one here to rest and start anew, although I’d have to download a few things from the old one because reacquiring certain information the old fashioned way seems a tedious endeavor.

Anyway…. no, I’m not a racist, although I certainly have met my fair share of them.  For the most part (but not all), they were of that “Yeah but…” type that Folktruther speaks of, which is still bad, but I can at least attest to the fact that these types are not usually as violent as some others.

Kinda ironic diamond, as of late, other commenters complain because I say, I LIKE OBAMA! (lol)

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By Inherit The Wind, August 7, 2009 at 6:01 pm Link to this comment

diamond, August 7 at 5:51 pm #

Outraged you’re an idiot. Go out and buy yourself a brain. My guess is that you belong to the ultra right and you’re a racist. Your real problem with Obama is that he’s black and people like you only want to disguise your racism by bleating about this birth certficate. The notice of his birth in 1961 was printed in a newspaper (remember them?) in HONOLULU. Last time I looked that was part of the United States so you don’t have a leg to stand on. Clearly your agenda is to discredit Obama’s presidency and since you can’t say he wasn’t elected, because unlike Bush he actually was, you run this completely fake line and you even have the hide to pretend to be outraged about it. You’re a disgrace and don’t flatter yourself that you’re a patriot. You’re something grubbier than that.
***************************************************

Diamond, you’re the idiot here.  Outraged is on the same side as you—he was QUOTING and disputing Ted Swart, and here’s what Outraged said—at the bottom, if you had read it:

**********************************************
Which btw, is using the exact same link from Wiki that I posted to you, which you say you read, then you used some of the material and ignored the rest.  That’s what I’m talking about.  I agree that there’s definitely a “can a worms” behind these claims of socialism and a supposed fraudulent birth certificate for Pres. Obama…. sure, it’s obvious there’s more to the claims than meets the eye. The birth certificate has been verified numerous times, by legal as well as non-partisan groups, yet some outrightly refuse to accept these VERIFIED facts.
**************************************************

So, Diamond, in this case you, Outraged, and me ALL agree that the birthers and their “objections” to the President’s legitimacy are nothing but racism.

At least admit your mistake.

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By Louise, August 7, 2009 at 4:01 pm Link to this comment

I remember Nazi driven madness that sucked good people into Hitlers war of aggression!

I remember little children blown up in a Christian Church, by other “Christians” who being white followed their impulse to kill non-white.

I remember a good man shot in the back by “good” federal agents because his “good” Christian neighbors didn’t like his version of Christianity.

I remember a rather stupid dolt entering the White House and telling the world God put him there, which calls into question the wisdom of God.

I remember the mindless stupidity that caused people to keep sending me negative bullshit about Obama, honestly believing their stupidity was necessary to save us from some sort of awfulness. One even prefaced her hate with a stupid, I’m not prejudist but ...

And all of these stupid acts (and thousands more) were/are precipitated by idiot hysteria from weeping woman and shouting men who live to prove how stupid they are. And why they were/are loved by folks like Hitler and Bush, Beck, O’Reilly and Rush. And help us understand why Republican leadership by and large accepts and follows the dictates of the extreme, because they are stupid too.

Most of all, I remember how few people like themselves enough to think before they act! Which probably explains why they can’t understand there are different religions and different races and different gender preferences and all sorts of different mind-sets on any number of different issues, which all require the ability to study, think and then act ... or not.

Which brings me to that “white Christian” versus “anything” thing.

Some people are stupid, and they like being that way. Otherwise they would understand racial or any other kind of prejudice is simple an emotion run amuck, the better for them to be jerked around.

Slavery is as old as man and glorified in mans oldest so-called religious writings. People of all colors, religions and races have been victimized by whoever happened to be in power at any given moment. Or practiced slavery when in power.

Israelites, Muslims, Christians, etc., have ALL practiced slavery at one time or another. And amazingly with the blessing of their God.

And there is no explaining it, or even understanding it beyond it’s stupid. And that kind of stupidity is dangerous but unfortunately legal. As yet, nobody has passed a law saying stupidity is illegal. Which would surely put a great many politicians out of work, and a lot of otherwise good people.

So I guess we shall simply have to go on living with stupid, just as we have since the dawning of history, and the first God was created by man.

So try to calm down and find some measure of humor watching the STUPID enlarge their colorful, “Look At Me, I Am Really Stupid” banner.

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By mike112769, August 7, 2009 at 3:31 pm Link to this comment

Bogi666 and purplegirl: LOL I was just playing around with the both of you. My apologies for any offenses. I know most people are in a rush on here. I was just trying to lighten the mood. Life’s too short to always be stressed. smile

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By rachel, August 7, 2009 at 2:53 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The driving force behind the birthers is a Zionist named Orly Tiatz who has conveniently left the country.

In my sick and twisted mind…it’s Israel causing trouble once more. Just as stated in the article…to create a minority extremist…“right wing extremist” to be the next boggie man…since they obviously can’t pin 9/11 on Bin Ladin.

This birther movement has Mossad written all over it.

BTW…I’m one of those conservatives you liberals hate so much. And even I can see there is a foreign country at work here. Just follow the bread crumbs.

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By diamond, August 7, 2009 at 2:51 pm Link to this comment

Outraged you’re an idiot. Go out and buy yourself a brain. My guess is that you belong to the ultra right and you’re a racist. Your real problem with Obama is that he’s black and people like you only want to disguise your racism by bleating about this birth certficate. The notice of his birth in 1961 was printed in a newspaper (remember them?) in HONOLULU. Last time I looked that was part of the United States so you don’t have a leg to stand on. Clearly your agenda is to discredit Obama’s presidency and since you can’t say he wasn’t elected, because unlike Bush he actually was, you run this completely fake line and you even have the hide to pretend to be outraged about it. You’re a disgrace and don’t flatter yourself that you’re a patriot. You’re something grubbier than that.

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By Folktruther, August 7, 2009 at 1:19 pm Link to this comment

Quite right, Inherit.  The birther attack is at bottom racist.  I see I have underestimated the role of racism in the US public consensus.  It occurs in this case among the right wing loonies, and in the Gates incident among Progressives as well.

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By Outraged, August 7, 2009 at 11:51 am Link to this comment

Re: Ted Swart

I was referring to this post of yours, maybe you’d forgotten in the scuttlebutt of comments.  Here it is:

“By Ted Swart, August 7 at 11:41 am #

Okay Outraged:

I have done the homework you suggest and read the whole of the Wikipedia article on Barack Obama’s birth and this is the relevant information that I come up with regarding the full form birth certificate:

“Fukino explained that the department was prohibited by state law from releasing it to “persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.” She stated: “No state official, including Gov. Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawaii.”

“When Internet columnist and author Andy Martin requested that the State of Hawaii send him his own personal copy of Obama’s Certification of Live Birth, Okuba elaborated on state policy for the release of vital records: “If someone from Obama’s campaign gave us permission in person and presented some kind of verification that he or she was Obama’s designee, we could release the vital record.”

This says to me that Obama or his designate can indeed arrange to have a copy of the full form birth certificate released. He—that is to say Obama—surely does have a “tangible interest” in doing just exactly that.

So, no matter what you or anyone else says, my question was and is perfectly sensible. And at least some other contributors to this discussion have treated my question accordingly.

I am glad that we do at lest agree on the culpability of the banks when it comes to the current depression/recession.  But your “(Goddamn it man, use your head)” is uncalled for and unhelpful. It so happens that I am a free thinking agnostic and invoking God does not impress me.

Since this discussion drifted far away from the ostensible topic I would only add that I find Patriot to be closest to the truth than most when he says that both the GOP (supposedly conservative) and the Democrats (supposedly liberal) are in cahoots with big business and lobbyists.
The drug companies are far too powerful and are consummate lobbyists and no health care reform will get anywhere unless their wings are clipped. Health care tends to be a misnomer since it is really sick care and we hear precious little about prevention being better than cure.”

Which btw, is using the exact same link from Wiki that I posted to you, which you say you read, then you used some of the material and ignored the rest.  That’s what I’m talking about.  I agree that there’s definitely a “can a worms” behind these claims of socialism and a supposed fraudulent birth certificate for Pres. Obama…. sure, it’s obvious there’s more to the claims than meets the eye.  The birth certificate has been verified numerous times, by legal as well as non-partisan groups, yet some outrightly refuse to accept these VERIFIED facts.

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By MarthaA, August 7, 2009 at 11:45 am Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt,

A political conservative IS the FAR RIGHT, no ifs, ands, buts, or maybes; conservative when used politically is the EXTREME FAR RIGHT.

CONSERVATIVE is a TROPE, which means it has TWO meanings, one meaning is FISCAL and one meaning is POLITICAL. The RIGHT-WING EXTREME use many tropes. There should be NO POLITICAL CONSERVATIVES on the Left, as CONSERVATIVES in politics ALWAYS conserve the wealth of the nation for the wealthy and powerful to reinforce their power and authority over the Left, at the expense of the Left; THAT IS WHAT CONSERVATIVES DO.  ONLY Liberals on the Left represent the Left.

Being conservative with YOUR money is a good trait, admirable, in fact, and it helps YOU; but the POLITICAL CONSERVATIVE, must not be confused with the FISCAL CONSERVATIVE, they are NOT THE SAME.  There are NO fiscal conservatives in politics, NONE. Accountants do this work. They say they are, but that is only their rhetoric.

Politics IS leadership of constituents in their best interest, and leadership of non-constituents AGAINST their best interest.

Politics is tough because it is a game of deceit by the minority CONSERVATIVE Right’s wealthy power seekers against the MAJORITY powerless common population that is the LIBERAL Left, that have power ONLY through their mass population; neither power can survive without the other, but instead of fostering equality, the CONSERVATIVE wealthy always seek to subdue the LIBERAL Left, the common population, into servitude and slavery throughout history.

Political CONSERVATIVES conserve the wealth of the nation for big banks, big business, big industry, big insurance, big corporations, etc. and people of the common population lose their jobs, their homes, etc. when the Liberal Left’s representatives in Congress fail to be good watchmen for the Liberal Left, the Common Population. 

What actually happened politically in the United States was that the CONSERVATIVE Nearly Noble 20% of the population, who used to consider themselves a part of the 90% MAJORITY Common Population gave that up and divided off from the Common Population into a “New Class” to represent only themselves as a separate class and culture apart from the Common Population and left the 70% Common Population without any leadership and baffled as to how to fend for themselves individually, as representatives, nearly ALL, became CONSERVATIVE protectors of the wealth for the wealthy and powerful Right.

It is impossible for any individual to represent themself in a court of law, much less individually in government; but government individualism propaganda was foisted off on the MAJORITY Common Population at the expense of their class and culture, which if the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION as a Class and Culture continue to be baffled about their majority class and culture without leadership as to their Class and Culture; will by osmosis accept servitude and slavery, and lose any form of democracy. 

It is up to the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION to rally for legal representation in the government Congresses of the United States, because currently only the Nobles and the Nearly Nobles “New Class” receive actual democratic representation, since the Bush administration, any benefits the Common Population receive is granted as from a KING, if we have a Liberal King, life is good, but when we have a Conservative KING, tyranny abounds within the Common Population.

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By Inherit The Wind, August 7, 2009 at 11:44 am Link to this comment

Why is it racist? Are you claiming the birthers aren’t the same people who call him “Muslim” and barack HUSSEIN obama and Obamalamadingdong?

Notice how quickly Dick Cheney’s ineligibility to be Vice was crushed.  Cheney is a Texan and the Constitution EXPLICITLY prohibits the Pres and Veep to be from the same state.  So he kept an apartment in Wyoming and claimed THAT was his residence (Does Cheney even know where it is?)

When you look at the birthers you see the same white protestant Republicans whose parents were Dixiecrats. You see the same people against universal health care, welfare, Head Start, affirmative action, and any kind of sane immigration policy re: the Latino illegal immigrants.

And we’re supposed to believe it’s not racist??????
Bullshit on that!

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By Ted Swart, August 7, 2009 at 11:16 am Link to this comment

To Outraged:

It is hard interacting with you since your rage seems to get the better of you.

You say:

“Why did I know you were going to come back with this type of claim.  Why do you ignore ALL other RELEVANT FACTS but yet count only the only ones it appears… YOU seem to feel, support your claims?”

The truth is that I have not made any claims and don’t need you to regurgitate known facts. I merely asked a perfectly sensible question and had no idea I was opening a can of worms.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 7, 2009 at 10:54 am Link to this comment

Most people don’t have to submit the long form. Yours is a special case since you are an immigrant here. I never have had to show the long form. I am sorry if you had to. Why do you continue to fall into their trap and playing their game and becoming their minion?

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By Outraged, August 7, 2009 at 10:53 am Link to this comment

Re: Ted Swart

Why did I know you were going to come back with this type of claim.  Why do you ignore ALL other RELEVANT FACTS but yet count only the only ones it appears… YOU seem to feel, support your claims?

Again
“A number of lawsuits have been filed seeking to disqualify Obama from standing or being confirmed as President, or to obtain better proof that he is qualified. Three have been filed with the Supreme Court of the United States, and the Court has refused to hear them. None of the cases has prevailed in lower courts.

“FactCheck.org was invited to view the Obama campaign’s hard copy of the candidate’s Certification of Live Birth and concluded:

It meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship. Claims that the document lacks a raised seal or a signature are false. We have posted high-resolution photographs of the document as “supporting documents” to this article. Our conclusion: Obama was born in the U.S.A. just as he has always said.”

“FactCheck.org claims the short form is “prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding”.  Obama’s short form was laser-printed and certified by the State of Hawaii on June 6, 2007. The Hawaii State Department of Health no longer issues the long-form Certificate and issues only the shorter Certification upon request.

According to Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center, “the birther movement has gained a large following on the radical right… it has been adopted by the most noxious elements out there.” Some of those “noxious elements” include a number of avowed white-supremacist and neo-Nazi groups. James von Brunn, an avowed white supremacist charged as the gunman in the June 10, 2009 United States Holocaust Memorial Museum shooting, had previously posted messages to the Internet accusing Obama and the media of hiding documents about his life. Ben Smith of The Politico commented: “The penetration of the birther mythology into the violent fringe has to be a worry for the Secret Service, because at its heart, it’s about denying Obama’s legitimacy to hold the office of president.”

Re Patriot:
Your comments: “Interesting Outraged. It seems my rep is also Steve Kagen.”

And: “Get a life. Not believing that Bama’s obviously forged HI birth certificate is ‘real’ has nothing to do with racism or conspiracy. It simply means this: that’s not an official HI birth certificate.”

So Patriot, are you posse comitatus too?  You wouldn’t happen to be among that group that was giving DEATH THREATS to the Shawano City council, a short while back….?

Again
According to Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center,“the birther movement has gained a large following on the radical right… it has been adopted by the most noxious elements out there.” Some of those “noxious elements” include a number of avowed white-supremacist and neo-Nazi groups.

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By Ted Swart, August 7, 2009 at 10:40 am Link to this comment

To MarthA:
Could you please avoid submitting multiple copies of your rather lenghty contributions. Thanks.

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By Ted Swart, August 7, 2009 at 10:37 am Link to this comment

To RavenBurnes:

When you say:

President Obama is not obligated to produce his long form birth certificate.  He has already answered these accusations during the campaign.  To continually focus on this is a waste of time.  Whether it would take a long amount of time or a short amount of time for him to produce this record to satisfy the accusations of people who hate him anyway would be demeaning and fruitless. If someone demanded this of me I’d ignore it too.”

I cannot fault you since obviously Obama is not “obligated” to produce his long form birth certificate and you are perfectly free to think he has done the right thing in ignoring pressure to do this.  I don’t “hate” Obama but I don’t love him either and I am sure rather wary of the cult like status he enjoys in many people’s eyes.

I am sorry that what I thought was a sensible and fairly obvious question has turned out to raise so many hackles. I still appreciate your ability to at least understand my question.

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By Ted Swart, August 7, 2009 at 10:16 am Link to this comment

No Night-Gaunt;

When you say:
“As a notation, I only use my ‘short form’ birth certificate and no one questions it. Why do you Patriot & Ted Swart? If you question Obama‘s then you are questioning everyone elses including your own.”

I am sorry but you are a bit off the mark. Since, as I have already pointed out with respect to my own personal experience, I was forced—when I emigrated—to produce a copy of my <full> birth certificate as the abridged version was not regarded as adequate. So there are circumstances when it is appropriate and sometimes even obligatory to produce the full certificate.

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By RavenBurnes, August 7, 2009 at 10:03 am Link to this comment

To Ted Swart:

President Obama is not obligated to produce his long form birth certificate.  He has already answered these accusations during the campaign.  To continually focus on this is a waste of time.  Whether it would take a long amount of time or a short amount of time for him to produce this record to satisfy the accusations of people who hate him anyway would be demeaning and fruitless. If someone demanded this of me I’d ignore it too.

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By bogi666, August 7, 2009 at 9:30 am Link to this comment

mike…..., thanks for the feedback,english was never a strong point which is why I majored in business. My punctuation was always a weak point and I got through english 1A with a C———a class which required a passing C grade. Somehow the teacher was able to pass me I’ll just continue writing and hope that all the readers aren’t english teachers.

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By Night-Gaunt, August 7, 2009 at 9:25 am Link to this comment

“the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS”MarthaA

I would recommend putting “CONSERVATIVE” in those quotes because they are only conservative about applying the Bill of Rights. Which amounts to zero. Where conservative isn’t what it originally meant. However calling them “extremists” and “radicals” would be closer to the truth. They are also “revolutionaries” and “rebels” too. The descriptives will all fit in my estimations.

Mike112769, it is generally bad etiquette to correct another’s spelling etc. unless it is to clarify a position. Most do these on the fly and just don’t have time to check every word. I try but even so sometimes I just let it go for brevity’s sake. It is the point of what they are saying that has the most importance. I would prefer everyone including myself would be at our best. We do what we can. We should show others how it should be done, lead by example.

It must also be said that early on the NSDAP would sell candy and flowers on street corners to make money. The Bolshiveks weren’t the major party in Russia either and they overthrew not the Tsar but a Democratic-Socialist Krensky who lived out his life in exile.

This whole thing with the ‘birthers’ is wasting our time and taking our attention away and undermining the first, and probably last, black president. And just maybe the last president.

As a notation, I only use my ‘short form’ birth certificate and no one questions it. Why do you Patriot & Ted Swart? If you question Obama‘s then you are questioning everyone elses including your own.

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By MarthaA, August 7, 2009 at 9:02 am Link to this comment

RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMISTS GONE WILD:

“At that time I (Adolph Hitler) adopted the standpoint:  It makes no difference whatever, whether they laugh at us or revile us, whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again, and that we gradually in the eyes of the workers themselves APPEAR to be the ONLY POWER that anyone reckons with at the moment.  What we really are and what we really want, we will show the wolves of the Jewish press when the time comes.”

“One can never count on protection on the part of the authorities; on the contrary, experience shows that it ALWAYS and EXCLUSIVELY
benefits the DISTURBERS.  For the sole actual result of intervention by the authorities—- that is, the police—- was at best to dissolve, in other words, to CLOSE THE MEETING.  And that was the SOLE AIM and PURPOSE of the hostile DISTURBERS.”

“If through some sort of threats it becomes known to the AUTHORITIES that there is danger of a meeting being broken up, they DO NOT ARREST the THREATENERS, but forbid the others, the innocent, to hold the meeting, and what is more, the run-of-mill police mind is MIGHTY PROUD of such wisdom.  They call this a ‘precautionary measure for the prevention of an illegal act.’  Thus, the DETERMINED GANGSTER is always in a position to make political activity and efforts IMPOSSIBLE for decent people.  In the name of Law and Order, the State Authority gives it to the GANGSTER and requests the others please not to provoke him.”

****
****

The above quotes are from “Mein Kampf” by Adolph Hitler and tell EXACTLY what the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS are doing right now, the whole EXTREMIST Bush administration followed Hitler’s pattern and RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS are continuing to follow Hitler’s pattern that put him in POWER and brought down the Weimar Republic in Germany.  Hitler’s plans of domination are being DUPLICATED in the United States by the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS.

Read this over until you understand, then make a comparison to what is happening in the United States today, because it is EXACTLY the same.  The EXTREME CONSERVATIVE RIGHT have an evil plan that doesn’t include the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION.

RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN GANGSTERS GONE WILD:
http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/141811/health_c are_town_halls_"gone_wild”:_right-wingers_on_the_ramp age/

EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN WHITE STRATEGY:

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/141762/the_repub lican_white_voter_strategy/

Think about this!! Check out these sites.  Obama could be hurt—the Republic is being hurt—Native Americans and African Americans could be hurt—white supremacy must be put down before killing takes place.

DO NOT BLOW THIS OFF—DO WHAT YOU CAN TO STOP IT

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By MarthaA, August 7, 2009 at 8:57 am Link to this comment

“At that time I (Adolph Hitler) adopted the standpoint:  It makes no difference whatever, whether they laugh at us or revile us, whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again, and that we gradually in the eyes of the workers themselves APPEAR to be the ONLY POWER that anyone reckons with at the moment.  What we really are and what we really want, we will show the wolves of the Jewish press when the time comes.”

“One can never count on protection on the part of the authorities; on the contrary, experience shows that it ALWAYS and EXCLUSIVELY
benefits the DISTURBERS.  For the sole actual result of intervention by the authorities—- that is, the police—- was at best to dissolve, in other words, to CLOSE THE MEETING.  And that was the SOLE AIM and PURPOSE of the hostile DISTURBERS.”

“If through some sort of threats it becomes known to the AUTHORITIES that there is danger of a meeting being broken up, they DO NOT ARREST the THREATENERS, but forbid the others, the innocent, to hold the meeting, and what is more, the run-of-mill police mind is MIGHTY PROUD of such wisdom.  They call this a ‘precautionary measure for the prevention of an illegal act.’  Thus, the DETERMINED GANGSTER is always in a position to make political activity and efforts IMPOSSIBLE for decent people.  In the name of Law and Order, the State Authority gives it to the GANGSTER and requests the others please not to provoke him.”

The above quotes from “Mein Kampf” by Adolph Hitler tell EXACTLY what the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS are doing, the whole Bush administration followed Hitler’s pattern and this is even further following of Hitler’s pattern that brought down the Weimar Republic in Germany being DUPLICATED in the United States by the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS.

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By MarthaA, August 7, 2009 at 8:56 am Link to this comment

“At that time I (Adolph Hitler) adopted the standpoint:  It makes no difference whatever, whether they laugh at us or revile us, whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again, and that we gradually in the eyes of the workers themselves APPEAR to be the ONLY POWER that anyone reckons with at the moment.  What we really are and what we really want, we will show the wolves of the Jewish press when the time comes.”

“One can never count on protection on the part of the authorities; on the contrary, experience shows that it ALWAYS and EXCLUSIVELY
benefits the DISTURBERS.  For the sole actual result of intervention by the authorities—- that is, the police—- was at best to dissolve, in other words, to CLOSE THE MEETING.  And that was the SOLE AIM and PURPOSE of the hostile DISTURBERS.”

“If through some sort of threats it becomes known to the AUTHORITIES that there is danger of a meeting being broken up, they DO NOT ARREST the THREATENERS, but forbid the others, the innocent, to hold the meeting, and what is more, the run-of-mill police mind is MIGHTY PROUD of such wisdom.  They call this a ‘precautionary measure for the prevention of an illegal act.’  Thus, the DETERMINED GANGSTER is always in a position to make political activity and efforts IMPOSSIBLE for decent people.  In the name of Law and Order, the State Authority gives it to the GANGSTER and requests the others please not to provoke him.”

The above quotes from “Mein Kampf” by Adolph Hitler tell EXACTLY what the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS are doing, the whole Bush administration followed Hitler’s pattern and this is even further following of Hitler’s pattern that brought down the Weimar Republic in Germany being DUPLICATED in the United States by the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS.

Read this over until you understand, then make a comparison to what is happening in the United States today, because it is EXACTLY the same.  The EXTREME CONSERVATIVE RIGHT have an evil plan that doesn’t include the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION.

RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN GANGSTERS GONE WILD:
http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/141811/health_c are_town_halls_"gone_wild”:_right-wingers_on_the_ramp age/

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/141762/the_republican_white_voter_strategy/

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By MarthaA, August 7, 2009 at 8:56 am Link to this comment

“At that time I (Adolph Hitler) adopted the standpoint:  It makes no difference whatever, whether they laugh at us or revile us, whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again, and that we gradually in the eyes of the workers themselves APPEAR to be the ONLY POWER that anyone reckons with at the moment.  What we really are and what we really want, we will show the wolves of the Jewish press when the time comes.”

“One can never count on protection on the part of the authorities; on the contrary, experience shows that it ALWAYS and EXCLUSIVELY
benefits the DISTURBERS.  For the sole actual result of intervention by the authorities—- that is, the police—- was at best to dissolve, in other words, to CLOSE THE MEETING.  And that was the SOLE AIM and PURPOSE of the hostile DISTURBERS.”

“If through some sort of threats it becomes known to the AUTHORITIES that there is danger of a meeting being broken up, they DO NOT ARREST the THREATENERS, but forbid the others, the innocent, to hold the meeting, and what is more, the run-of-mill police mind is MIGHTY PROUD of such wisdom.  They call this a ‘precautionary measure for the prevention of an illegal act.’  Thus, the DETERMINED GANGSTER is always in a position to make political activity and efforts IMPOSSIBLE for decent people.  In the name of Law and Order, the State Authority gives it to the GANGSTER and requests the others please not to provoke him.”

The above quotes from “Mein Kampf” by Adolph Hitler tell EXACTLY what the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS are doing, the whole Bush administration followed Hitler’s pattern and this is even further following of Hitler’s pattern that brought down the Weimar Republic in Germany being DUPLICATED in the United States by the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS.

Read this over until you understand, then make a comparison to what is happening in the United States today, because it is EXACTLY the same.  The EXTREME CONSERVATIVE RIGHT have an evil plan that doesn’t include the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION.

RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN GANGSTERS GONE WILD:
http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/141811/health_c are_town_halls_"gone_wild”:_right-wingers_on_the_ramp age/

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/141762/the_republican_white_voter_strategy/

Think about this!!  Obama could be hurt—the Republic is being hurt—Native Americans could be hurt—white supremacy must be put down before killing takes place.

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By MarthaA, August 7, 2009 at 8:46 am Link to this comment

“At that time I (Adolph Hitler) adopted the standpoint:  It makes no difference whatever, whether they laugh at us or revile us, whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again, and that we gradually in the eyes of the workers themselves APPEAR to be the ONLY POWER that anyone reckons with at the moment.  What we really are and what we really want, we will show the wolves of the Jewish press when the time comes.”

“One can never count on protection on the part of the authorities; on the contrary, experience shows that it ALWAYS and EXCLUSIVELY
benefits the DISTURBERS.  For the sole actual result of intervention by the authorities—- that is, the police—- was at best to dissolve, in other words, to CLOSE THE MEETING.  And that was the SOLE AIM and PURPOSE of the hostile DISTURBERS.”

“If through some sort of threats it becomes known to the AUTHORITIES that there is danger of a meeting being broken up, they DO NOT ARREST the THREATENERS, but forbid the others, the innocent, to hold the meeting, and what is more, the run-of-mill police mind is MIGHTY PROUD of such wisdom.  They call this a ‘precautionary measure for the prevention of an illegal act.’  Thus, the DETERMINED GANGSTER is always in a position to make political activity and efforts IMPOSSIBLE for decent people.  In the name of Law and Order, the State Authority gives it to the GANGSTER and requests the others please not to provoke him.”

****
****

The above quotes are from “Mein Kampf” by Adolph Hitler and tell EXACTLY what the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS are doing right now, the whole EXTREMIST Bush administration followed Hitler’s pattern and RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS are continuing to follow Hitler’s pattern that put him in POWER and brought down the Weimar Republic in Germany.  Hitler’s plans of domination are being DUPLICATED in the United States by the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS.

Read this over until you understand, then make a comparison to what is happening in the United States today, because it is EXACTLY the same.  The EXTREME CONSERVATIVE RIGHT have an evil plan that doesn’t include the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION.

RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN GANGSTERS GONE WILD:
http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/141811/health_c are_town_halls_"gone_wild”:_right-wingers_on_the_ramp age/

EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN WHITE STRATEGY:

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/141762/the_republican_white_voter_strategy/

Think about this!! Check out these sites.  Obama could be hurt—the Republic is being hurt—Native Americans and African Americans could be hurt—white supremacy must be put down before killing takes place.

DO NOT BLOW THIS OFF—DO WHAT YOU CAN TO STOP IT

Report this

By Ted Swart, August 7, 2009 at 8:41 am Link to this comment

Okay Outraged:

I have done the homework you suggest and read the whole of the Wikipedia article on Barack Obama’s birth and this is the relevant information that I come up with regarding the full form birth certificate:

“Fukino explained that the department was prohibited by state law from releasing it to “persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.” She stated: “No state official, including Gov. Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawaii.”

“When Internet columnist and author Andy Martin requested that the State of Hawaii send him his own personal copy of Obama’s Certification of Live Birth, Okuba elaborated on state policy for the release of vital records: “If someone from Obama’s campaign gave us permission in person and presented some kind of verification that he or she was Obama’s designee, we could release the vital record.”

This says to me that Obama or his designate can indeed arrange to have a copy of the full form birth certificate released. He—that is to say Obama—surely does have a “tangible interest” in doing just exactly that.

So, no matter what you or anyone else says, my question was and is perfectly sensible. And at least some other contributors to this discussion have treated my question accordingly.

I am glad that we do at lest agree on the culpability of the banks when it comes to the current depression/recession.  But your “(Goddamn it man, use your head)” is uncalled for and unhelpful. It so happens that I am a free thinking agnostic and invoking God does not impress me.

Since this discussion drifted far away from the ostensible topic I would only add that I find Patriot to be closest to the truth than most when he says that both the GOP (supposedly conservative) and the Democrats (supposedly liberal) are in cahoots with big business and lobbyists.
The drug companies are far too powerful and are consummate lobbyists and no health care reform will get anywhere unless their wings are clipped. Health care tends to be a misnomer since it is really sick care and we hear precious little about prevention being better than cure.

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By mike112769, August 7, 2009 at 8:05 am Link to this comment

bogi666: PLEASE read up on how to use an apostrophe.
purplegirl: I agree with a lot of what you say; remember though, no matter how good your words are, not many will read them if they are spelled incorrectly. Presentation is over half the battle. smile

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By Ted Swart, August 7, 2009 at 7:47 am Link to this comment

Okay DBM. 
You are the current winner of my prize for making two sensible suggestions in answer to my question.

I do appreciate your “sorry to offend” insertion. At least you avoid being blatanly rude like some others in this discussion. I hope I have not wasted anyone time but I fondly imagined the discussion was supposed to focus on Barack Obama’s birth. It could be argues that too many contributors have drifted far away from the topic we are supposed to be discussing. I only mentioned health care and the stimulus package since these seem to be the topics others have chosen to focus on.

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By DHFabian, August 7, 2009 at 6:54 am Link to this comment

Why do these people think the law was suspended just for candidate Barack Obama?  By law, all information relevant to qualifications for the office of presidency is fully investigated BEFORE a candidate can take office.  Each party fully investigates this information concerning their own candidates, as well as the candidates of the opposing party, well before an election takes place, to ensure that the candidate meets the legal requirements for office.

Does anyone imagine, for even a moment, that the Republican Party leadership failed to fully investigate Obama’s qualifications (as law requires) before the election, hoping to find something to either disqualify Obama or strengthen John McCain’s chances of winning the election?

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By bogi666, August 7, 2009 at 6:05 am Link to this comment

rfidler, Paul GA has posted the Hermann Goering quote at 9:07 pm August 6th. That’s the one Paul GA, thanks

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By Howie Bledsoe, August 7, 2009 at 2:47 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Clintons were serial killers, drug kingpins, traitors and communists, bent on dissolving American sovereignty into a socialist world government.
Too right!

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By Patriot, August 7, 2009 at 1:47 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Interesting Outraged. It seems my rep is also Steve Kagen.

For anyone interested in the truth:

despite what the demonstrably insane Kagen claimed after the town hall, the people demonstrating against the government controlling their healthcare and by proxy their lifestyle decisions were not ‘agents of the insurance companies’ (I know, hard to believe that anyone opposed to more government tyranny could EVER engage in the same activities as those who are FOR more government intervention… crazy world we live in) they’re regular people who already pay enough taxes, already pay enough for pseudo-government care, already pay enough to bailout Obama’s buddies, already pay enough for the governments monopoly enterprises, and already pay enough in the governments inflationary ponzi scheme.


Dont get me wrong, it would be a dream job to get paid by an insurance company (lets forget the irony that most of them are in the pockets of the politicians and are pseudo-government operations to begin with) to let these megalomaniacs how much more intelligent I am than they are, but thats not reality.


talk about reality, all you psycho’s in here actually put forth the theory that if anyone disagrees with the government, they must be some sort of underground and massive nation-wide republican group. Since when do republicans disagree with the government? never, thats when.


Disagreeing with the government makes someone necessarily non-partisan, since both parties seek only to expand government power and loot from the average prole.

Keep living in liberal fantasy camp, where governmont monopoly’s are effective and efficient, where government cares about your well-being, and where you can always get something for nothing. You’re not going to like what the world looks like when you get home.

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By Patriot, August 7, 2009 at 1:33 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Please tell me, how can one be a “RIGHT WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICAN” all at once?

Thats a laundry list of contradicting terms. ‘Right wing’ in the current ‘left-right’ paradigm doesnt mean anything. Its a hold over from absolutist days. How can one be BOTH a ‘conservative’ and an ‘extremist’ at the exact same time? Those 2 terms directly contradict each other.

Moreover, there are no ‘conservatives’ left in the Republican party, save for 1 lonely man from Texas.

The Republican Party, more accurately, is full of NEOCON LIBERAL PROGRESSIVE EXTREMIST TALIBAN NAZI’s.

You know, since they can’t both be ‘conservative’ and warmongering, govenrment growing, liberty stealing, property confiscating, authoritarians at the same time. I believe the term you are looking for is ‘liberal’ in the modern American usage, or Progressive. You know, since its liberals and progressives who steal liberty.


You all make me sick. You’re the kind of Nazi Taliban warlords who would report your neighbors to some illdefined governing body for the slightest of offenses.

Please, put it upon yourself to move to where you belong: Russia, NK, Iran, or perhaps Britain. Then you can let the government tell you what to do all day long, and you can leave red-blooded Americans alone. Take your commie Nazi punk president King Comrade Hussein with you.

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By Patriot, August 7, 2009 at 1:22 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

So how does this automatically translate into racism?

Why is it that Liberal Fantasy Camp is a life-long pursuit of finding code words for racism? It merely begs the question.

You diabolical statists remind me of Roddy Piper on ‘They’ - You’ve found a magical pair of sunglasses, which upon wearing you discover that everyone is secretly a racist wearing full Klan garb.

Get a life. Not believing that Bama’s obviously forged HI birth certificate is ‘real’ has nothing to do with racism or conspiracy. It simply means this: that’s not an official HI birth certificate.

I readily admit he’s a US citizen; Brezinski isn’t THAT clever. Nevertheless. Just show the real one. Stop being an elitist little punk and hand it over. He’s the POTUS. He should be a role model, not a petty little jerk.

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By DBM, August 7, 2009 at 12:50 am Link to this comment

Ah Ted Swart ... finally you ask a useful question, “Why give the “birthers” ammunition which could easily be taken away from them?”.

Well, I can think of two reasons:

1. No-one can be bothered producing yet more documentation to prove something to people who will immediately claim it is forged anyway.

2. This is making a whole host of people look like idiots.  The Republican politicians who are too afraid of their lunatic base voters to debunk this crap are treading a very difficult line.  Why should the Democrats make life easier for them?

And ... sorry to offend ... but it makes anyone who would waste half a dozen posts on a thread like this look a little foolish as well.  Given that you say you “accept that all the evidence points to Hawaii as the place where Obama was born”, don’t you think it would make more sense to focus on the stimulus package or healthcare proposal that you allude to in your last post?

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Outraged's avatar

By Outraged, August 7, 2009 at 12:21 am Link to this comment

Re: Ted Swart

I can only suggest reading the entirety of the article at Wikipedia.  Although I admit….. you appear “hell bent” on denial, no matter the facts.  I’ll reiterate a portion of my prior link:

“A number of lawsuits have been filed seeking to disqualify Obama from standing or being confirmed as President, or to obtain better proof that he is qualified. Three have been filed with the Supreme Court of the United States, and the Court has refused to hear them. None of the cases has prevailed in lower courts.”

I mean really… what do you want?  These are legal professionals, well versed in persnickety jibbets AND THEY DON’T FIND ANYTHING AMISS!  What…..what…..what do YOU WANT? 

Your comment: “It is not clear to me that we would not now be better off if there had been no stimulus package.”

Well, maybe this will help, The LA Times:

“Obama, she said, was advised in December “to hit the financial crisis and the burgeoning recession with as much force as possible.”

“In the past few months, some have tried to portray fiscal stimulus as an exotic tool with a questionable pedigree,” she said. “In fact, it is a tried and true remedy widely supported by economists across the political spectrum. To use a medical analogy, fiscal stimulus is a well-tested antibiotic, not some newfangled gene therapy.

“There is also ample evidence that fiscal stimulus works,” Romer said.

“The president aimed for a package that was large and got good employment bang for the fiscal buck,” the president’s advisor said. “It was designed to provide a lift for at least two years.

“The money is absolutely going out the door quickly. As of the end of June, more than $100 billion had been spent,” Romer said. “Those numbers are rising each week, and we are on track to have spent 70% of the total by the end of the next fiscal year.”

The rate of decline in the GDP has slowed considerably—from 6.4% in the first quarter of this year to 1% in the second quarter, she noted.

“To be sure, the economy is far from healthy, and we obviously have a tremendous distance to go,” she said. “Real GDP, after all, is still declining. But economies don’t switch from rapid decline to robust growth all at once.”

For those who question the impact of the Recovery Act on this, she said, it’s necessary to project what would have happened without it. Historical trends suggest that the decline during the last quarter would have been more than double what it was without the infusion of spending.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-obama-economy7-2009aug07,0,2826302.story

Your comment: “Certainly the banks don’t seem to have any shame and are blandly doling out massive bonus packages as if nothing has changed—ignoring the fact that they share a large part of the blame for our economic plight.”

Here I agree.  But let me be clear, they not only “share a large part of the blame” the banksters ARE TO BLAME, along with their accomplices of course, but this is not Pres. Obama and his admin.  (Goddamn it man, use your head)

The ship of state, nor the economy will “turn on a dime”, so to speak…. unless of course IT IS SINKING!  This says to me Pres. Obama and his admin. have mustered everything available to save this sinking ship, on both accounts.

I think it will work but I am not an economist but I can judge a sinking ship as well as the next “guy”.  This is not the “end of the story”, this is STABLIZING A CATASTROPHE…. the rest of the story has not yet been written.  One will have to see….. after the emergency has past.

Btw, since I mispelled Obama’s name, I feel compelled to “make things right”, so…

Again,(for the cameras):

Behold, The President of the United States of America, BARACK Obama.

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By Druthers, August 7, 2009 at 12:09 am Link to this comment

This “birther” affair is just another brick thrown at the windows of legal government.  The corporate-military complex no longer pretends to be democratic and niow resorts to fascist tools to destabilise any semblance of order. 
They want control, and are prepared to use any means to obtain it.  These so called “issues” are simple pretexts on the path to “mission accomplished.”
I think these people are dangerous and that our form of life and government are in danger as perhaps never before.

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By Ted Swart, August 6, 2009 at 10:46 pm Link to this comment

No outrsged I don’t “double” as anything. As I have already indicated I accept that all the evidence points to Hawaii as the place where Obama was born.  However, you do at least concede that the long form Hawaiian birth certificate does (or should) exist. So my question remains. Why has it not been released?  Let me phrase my question another way. Why give the “birthers” ammunition which could easily be taken away from them?
When it comes to health care I believe that there are good and bad aspects of both the current Canadian and American health care systems. And Canada has just as much difficulty in improving its system as the US does. All too often the health care system gets used as a political football.

I get the feeling that there are far too many Obama supporters who think that everything Obama does and says must be kosher.  And if he proposes a health care overhaul it must be supported no matter what. It is no easy matter to overhaul a health care system and the very thought of having to digest 1000+ pages in order to do this sounds pretty frightening to me. The so-called stimulus package was also some 1000 pages long (with load of pork) and no one had enough time to fully digest it before having to vote upon it.
It is not clear to me that we would not now be better off if there had been no stimulus package. Certainly the banks don’t seem to have any shame and are blandly doling out massive bonus packages as if nothing has changed—ignoring the fact that they share a large part of the blame for our economic plight.

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