MarthaA, I appreciate your outrage.  However, rather than criminalizing speech, we should just work to restore our right to present evidence of criminal conduct to grand juries. 

Without a gatekeeper which I call prosecuting princes, we would be able to present evidence of criminal conduct like the false arrest of Prof. Gates, the rape of Hope Steffey, and the theft of elections directly to a grand jury of citizens who would most likely indict the criminal fascist scum who commit such crimes with impunity under our current system.  Check out my article http://dailycensored.com/2009/06/24/why-does-the-u-s-government-torture-people/ and you’ll learn just how out of control our government is, the outrageous crimes which are committed by government agents every day and covered up by the “news” media, and what a U.S. Supreme Court Justice says about the importance of the right to present evidence to grand juries. 

By the way, I represented Clint Curtis in his election contest. If you want to know more about that, see Have American Elections Really Been Stolen? – The Proof at http://www.opednews.com/articles/Have-American-Elections-Re-by-Mark-Adams-081029-64.html  It was a Top Scoop on Scoop for several days. See it at http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0810/S00428.htm Also, check out Would Congressional Democrats Cover Up Neo-Con Election Fraud? No Way, Right?!?! at http://www.opednews.com/articles/Would-Congressional-Democr-by-Mark-Adams-081102-529.html This article was also a Top Scoop on Scoop for several days.  See it at http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0811/S00030.htm

As Gore Vidal mentioned, we need to restore the Constitutional republic which once provided us with the ability to protect ourselves from tyrants.  To do so, enough people need to realize how our rights were once secured and demand a restoration of those rights.

Mark A. Adams JD/MBA,

I remember the Republican Election Fraud and Clint Curtis reporting what Republican Sweeney was up to in controlling the voting machines in Florida. 

I know the Right-Wing is corrupt, but it didn’t occur to me they would be as outright corrupt as they were with you, usually their corruption is all hid behind deceit. 

It is time for the Liberals and the Left to bring the Right-Wing dominated Police State back to neutral before they start killing Liberals and the Left as happened in Hitler’s Germany.

WE THE PEOPLE need to vote out or impeach all the Right-Wing judges that carry a political vendetta against the Liberals and the Left.

We must legislate laws to criminalize SOCIOPATHIC ORGANIZED POLITICAL SOPHIST PROPAGANDA, so that neither party will be able to use SOCIOPATHIC ORGANIZED POLITICAL SOPHIST PROPAGANDA as a weapon, like a knife or a gun, against the other political party, as is being done in our world today by SOCIOPATHIC ORGANIZED RIGHT-WING POLITICAL CONSERVATIVE SOPHIST PROPAGNADISTS led by sociopath Dick Army and his Freedom Works organization working with other Right-Wing minions to destroy the constitution and law and order in the United States for the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION.

Interesting side discussion of the problem with our system resulting from control by two parties.  Some realize that there is little difference between the two and note that they both seem to favor the big money interests.  As a result, many of us recognize that we are ruled by the Money Party. 

I won the first two injunctions getting a third party candidate into the debates since Ross Perot scared the hell out of the rulers in the debates in 1992.  For more on that, see this short video at http://blip.tv/file/1672498 and if you want to know what happens to attorneys who rock the boat by getting third party candidates into debates, exposing election fraud, and judicial corruption, see this video at http://blip.tv/file/1339250 and don’t miss the links below it.

For evidence confirming that we do live in a fascist police state, see this article and the links in it at http://dailycensored.com/2009/06/24/why-does-the-u-s-government-torture-people/  If you check it out, you will also learn about the fundamental right which was stolen from you which allows government agents and those who can influence them to treat you any way they wish. 

For information about another fundamental right to control the government which has been stolen from you and how to restore it, see http://www.opednews.com/articles/How-to-Stop-Election-Theft-by-Mark-Adams-081023-879.html

BlueBoy1938,

MarthaA Said:  “We have ONLY two political parties that have been set up by constitutional legislation; understanding that there are ONLY two constitutional political parties is major.”

Blueboy1938 Answered: “The United States Constitution says nothing about political parties.”

MarthaA’s Answer to Blueboy1938: Law is made under the Constitution, and the law institutionalizes the two political parties by making onerous legal requirements for all political parties other than the two institutionalized parties; the laws are so onerous that not even Ross Perot with his billions could contest.  The political system in the United States is set up to limit who is on the ballot. 

If you don’t understand how this works, try to get on the ballot, and you will get educated right away.

The only way to compete with a Two-Party Political System is to Change the system and use the laws to institutionalize a Multi-Party Political System and for the Common Population to do it it will have to be through the Democratic Party.

MarthA:

“We have ONLY two political parties that have been set up by constitutional legislation; understanding that there are ONLY two constitutional political parties is major.”

The United States Constitution says nothing about political parties.

Night-Gaunt,

Primary Elections are for REFORMING political parties. 

In my memory the Democratic Party used to represent FARMERS and LABORERS, in my memory the REPUBLICAN PARTY never did anything but represent BIG CAPITALISTS, maybe at one time REPUBLICANS represented FARMERS and LABORERS, but not since I have been alive.

The most recent party that has represented FARMERS and LABORERS is the Democratic Party, and in Minnesota is still called the Democratic Farmer Labor Party.

We have ONLY two political parties that have been set up by constitutional legislation; understanding that there are ONLY two constitutional political parties is major.

The Common Population must use the Primary Elections as the political tool for which it was set up—- to vote out all representatives and senators that do not represent the Common Population, and keep voting out all people who do not represent the Common Population, until the Democratic Party is cleaned up—- REFORMED to represent the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION of the United States as a Class and Culture.

Both political parties did not originally represent Big Capitalists, originally only one party, the Republican Party, represented Big Capitalists and the Democratic Farmer Labor Party represented the Common Population, hence still Minnesota’s democratic party carries the name Democratic Farmer Labor Party.

When you contend for both parties you are playing into the Right-Wings hands, as the only party that was ever noted as representative of the Common Population was the Democratic Farmer Labor Party, that is currently still included in the Democratic Party, as that is the party of Senator Al Franken, not just the Democratic Party, but the Democratic Farmer Labor Party, that represents FARMERS and LABORERS.

Anyone who is a member of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION should forget about the Republican Party, because they can not and will not ever receive any representation from that side of the spectrum, and concentrate full bore on cleaning up the Democratic Party and making the Democratic Party represent the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION. 

Don’t say it can’t be done, otherwise you are defeated before you start.  It can be done, and we can do it.  Yes We Can.  But not if we keep divided the Common Population between the two political parties, we of the Common Population must use the one party and make it represent us and then after we get control of the party, legislate constitutional laws for other parties to be equal with the two political parties we now have.  We have to use what we have not what we haven’t got.  We do not have but TWO political parties; all other parties sit under these two parties jurisdiction, and even if a president was elected from a different party, that different party president would still have to work with the Democrats and Republicans in Congress.

The Republican Party represents the means of production and distribution, the interests of capital, who in the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION of the United States has capital interests in the means of production and distribution?  And, if not, why on earth would they be voting for, or be a member of the Republican Party?

What do you think the Primary Elections are for?

Night-Gaunt:You defuse a bomb, you don’t set your own to blow up too. We need to close down their tactics and maintain order to let people have their say. That is the point of these town meetings. A counter shout fest does not accomplish that. All people need their turn and what they are doing is stopping that.
*****************************
At one time there were towns with factories where people worked, were prosperous and had hope. Everyone knew each other. At that time Town Halls served a purpose. Problems were discussed and possible solutions brought forth. Now “towns” are no longer what they used to be. Factories have moved out.  People look to the internet and discuss on blogs and boards what they would have discussed at Town Hall meetings.” You can’t go home again” as is being proven. Such meetings are manipulated. Perhaps that was the intent, however, it has backfired.

Ardee, the Dems are not concerned with real policy reform primarily, but in winning elections.  That is why they play the policy game so badly.  They don’t want to win if it costs them money and thus power, but they have to pretend for the Dem ranak and file.

But I suspect I am telling you what you already know.

The Democrats are infiltrated just like the Republicans only it hasn’t ejected all of the liberals and moderates like the Republican party has.

The rhetoric is nicer and they throw sops to the people but in the end the same kinds of things are passed. Sometimes moderated by the likes of Feingold & Kucinich but not too many times.

Ending the monopoly and changing the system are the only way the other parties with other ways of doing things are ever going to be able to make a good difference. The bad differences are already being made.

ardee,

Some, but not all.

MarthaA, August 14 at 1:52 am #

ardee,

That’s because the Republicans own the media.

.....................................

More accurately it is because the same folks who own the Republican legislators also own their Democratic counterparts.

If the lies have greater access then they will trump truth as we see time and again. The sad fact of who is controlling most of the information outlets is very few, down to five mega corporations. This of a small number who are even interested in news in the first place.

ardee,

That’s because the Republicans own the media.

You defuse a bomb, you don’t set your own to blow up too. We need to close down their tactics and maintain order to let people have their say. That is the point of these town meetings. A counter shout fest does not accomplish that. All people need their turn and what they are doing is stopping that.

What you expertly do is defuse and disperse. Doing it gently but with sufficient force to tamp out that fire. So I respectfully disagree.

Truth trumps lies. The problem with our current mess is that lies are all the public gets to hear.

If the Democrats are so concerned with real reform why on earth do they play the game so poorly? They are well financed, well organised, supposedly well intentioned, have a majority in the Legislature and a President in the biggest bully pulpit there is.

On the opposition side we find declining membership, declining representation in govt and increasingly radical positions on everything. Yet the voices we hear loudest and most often are Republican…..

Martha, Perhaps the best way to combat the “birthers” et al disrupting town meetings on health program might be to do the same thing but just as skillfully and well-planned. That is, what seems to make them effective at blocking debate is by planting their people dispersed among the attendees and shouting over the speaker, then joined by other plants so that the speaker thinks that perhaps the entire audience is against him. It might be worth trying to mimic that with progressive/left protesters distributed the same way and using the same technique, only shouting over the first “birther” protester and giving the speaker a window.

I think that having police intervene by muscling out “birthers” protesters out of the hall would be tantamount to suppressing the right to free speech. Unfortunately, hate speech is still covered by the Constitutional amendment. If you make it OK to shut down hate speech, then it can be a precedent to shutting down free speech of any kind. That is what the ACLU’s entire premise is based on, that what is done to one can be done to everyone.

Fighting fire with better fire is a better option, though it would take a lot of coordination and discipline. If we lose the right to free speech, ANYBODY’s free speech, worthless or hateful or dumb though it be, we will be well on our way to a real police state. Nobody standing up to the brownshirts got a whole lot of people into a world of hurt in the ‘30s and ‘40s.

M. Henry Day,

Hitler is describing what is necessary to do to take over the government, and Hitler did take over, and the liberal Weimar Republic became history—- and Right-Wing EXTREMIST CORPORATIONS ruled Hitler, just like Right-Wing EXTREMIST Rupert Murdoch type CORPORATIONS that rule the media today; hopefully the government will somehow pull out from under corporate control.

Interesting analysis, MarthaA.  However, it does not change the fact that the police authorities first need a complaint that alleges a specific crime.  A 911 call from some beset member of Congress who reports, “People are screaming at me - really loudly!” probably will not suffice.

Of course I understand perfectly the motives behind such behavior to be interdiction of civil discourse.  Your Mein Kampf quote was very á propos.  It is being incited by the RNC and their henchmen and women on talk radio and Fox News.  As Hitler stated, it is a very effective technique precisely for the reason that I gave:  The police will not simply remove the trouble-makers; they will shut the meeting down.  If any arrests are made, they are as likely to be made from those who protest the closure of the meeting as those who provoked it.

The only “defense” against this form of disruption is to shut down the meeting, which is precisely what the shouters want.  They either want to prevent any rational dialogue from taking place by drowning it out, or to force the conveners to shut down their own meeting.

That was well interesting, MarthA.

Just remember, Marth A, that Hitler here is not describing what happened to political meetings under Nazi rule, but that which happened to the Nazi’s own political meetings in the early 1920s under Weimar Republic, which, with all its many faults, was an attempt at parliamentary democracy. The «decent people» to which he refers are, of course, the Nazis, and the «DISTURBERS», «threateners», and the «DETERMINED GANGSTER» those who protested against them. So can it go….

Henri

Blueboy1938,

The police don’t seem to have a problem picking up other people expressing their opinions, even in their own homes, and I doubt that these REPUBLICAN disturbers could be in any way making all that noise to express their opinion.  They are there to close the meetings down, nothing more, a tactic from the Republican EXTREMIST Play Book, “Mein Kampf”. 

A loud speaker would be an asset, but the people would have to have a way to talk without all the noise, or all the Republican Hitleresque noise would only be magnified.

BTW, Here’s Hitler’s words from his book, “Mein Kampf”:

“It makes no difference whatever, whether they laugh at us or revile us, whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again, and that we gradually in the eyes of the workers themselves APPEAR to be the ONLY POWER that anyone reckons with at the moment.”

“One can never count on protection on the part of the authorities; on the contrary, experience shows that it ALWAYS and EXCLUSIVELY benefits the DISTURBERS.  For the sole actual result of intervention by the authorities—- that is, the police—- was at best to dissolve, in other words, to close the meeting.  And that was the sole aim and purpose of the hostile DISTURBERS.”

“If through some sort of threats it becomes known to the authorities that there is danger of a meeting being broken up, they DO NOT ARREST the threateners, but forbid the others, the innocent, to hold the meeting, and what is more, the run-of-mill police mind is mighty proud of such wisdom.  They call this a ‘precautionary measure for the prevention of an illegal act.’  Thus, the DETERMINED GANGSTER is always in a position to make political activity and efforts impossible for decent people.  In the name of Law and Order, the State Authority gives it to the gangster and requests the others please not to provoke him.”

Blueboy1938,

The police don’t seem to have a problem picking up other people expressing their opinions, even in their own homes, and I doubt that these REPUBLICAN disturbers could be in any way making all that noise to express their opinion.  They are there to close the meetings down, nothing more, a tactic from the Republican EXTREMIST Play Book, “Mein Kampf”. 

A loud speaker would be an asset, but the people would have to have a way to talk without all the noise, or all the Republican Hitleresque noise would only be magnified.

BTW, Here’s Hitler’s words from his book, “Mein Kampf”:

“It makes no difference whatever, whether they laugh at us or revile us, whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again, and that we gradually in the eyes of the workers themselves APPEAR to be the ONLY POWER that anyone reckons with at the moment.”

“One can never count on protection on the part of the authorities; on the contrary, experience shows that it ALWAYS and EXCLUSIVELY benefits the DISTURBERS.  For the sole actual result of intervention by the authorities—- that is, the police—- was at best to dissolve, in other words, to close the meeting.  And that was the sole aim and purpose of the hostile DISTURBERS.”

“If through some sort of threats it becomes known to the authorities that there is danger of a meeting being broken up, they DO NOT ARREST the threateners, but forbid the others, the innocent, to hold the meeting, and what is more, the run-of-mill police mind is mighty proud of such wisdom.  They call this a ‘precautionary measure for the prevention of an illegal act.’  Thus, the DETERMINED GANGSTER is always in a position to make political activity and efforts impossible for decent people.  In the name of Law and Order, the State Authority gives it to the gangster and requests the others please not to provoke him.”

Contrast these words from Hitler with the Right-Wings determined gangster disruptions today, because it is the same, and it is cause for concern.

no police.  No sound system.  A large number of
6ft 6 soft spoken bouncers.

Freedom of speech is a benefit of living in this still free country.  Unless law enforcement officials determine that there is unlawful assembly or disturbing the peace or some form of assault, they are prevented from arresting those expressing an opinion, even at the top of their voice.

It seems to me that the simple solution to this uncivil demonstrating is for the town hall organizers to get rock concert level sound systems.  That way, they will have all the decibel level power they might need to either drown out the yellers or break their eardrums.

Speaking of POLICE STATE, to my knowledge, there are a lot more police than there have ever been, so these police should be picking up and filling jails with the disturbers at the Democratic Party Meetings around the country, because they are not there to learn or even protest peacefully, they are there to rattle and make noise to keep a democratic political meeting from happening and they should be picked up an put in jail.

Gordy, It’s not that it’s “harder”—just that there is not the support the good newspapers could give you. Papers like the LA & NY Times, St. Louis Post Dispatch, Louisville Courier-Journal et al no longer have the resources to put into it. You might spend a year or more on a single story, on salary all the time, and once it’s finished there’s not necessarily any more newsprint than something in the features section on gardening or decorating.

The other problem is that in some sorts of stories you get information from sources who would never talk to you again once the story breaks—local drug dealers, pols on graft—so you probably need to go to another paper in another part of the country to do the same sort of thing. In time you get to be a specialist on some topic or other. In-depth stories and investigative are not the same thing. You can stay on the same paper, write any number of indepth stories on subjects that are NOT on illegal or dangerous topics, or re political or police corruption to the extent that people resign.

Seymour Hersch and Sebastian Junger do amazing work and are appropriately rewarded for it. But they are the exceptions, not the rule. They do mag articles, and books, and movies are sometimes made using their work.

M. Henri Day,
No need to be so testy.  The next day, I checked the link off the link you provided and it was to Onion.  Thanks for the link,

stcfarms,
You are not only smart (IQ 162) but realistic.  On the weight of your IQ, I will reconsider your previous remarks about the fruitlessness of taking on the state. (Do you have any room on the raft?)
However, the local cops and the salary that they’re pulling down with overtime, I’d guess that they have better stuff than I have.  They’d probably trash the place and for fear of making too much noise, they’d strangle the cat.
I am serious, though, about those events.  Maybe I am Shtoopit, but I was brought up in a different USA.

Garth, my link, as I presume you know and as I checked before posting, led to an article in the Onion. You may dislike the site, in which case you are free to abstain from visiting it….

Henri

Garth,

  They stole only your passport? It sounds as if you may have gotten on a terrorist list. It would of course be a much higher class of police that would pull something like that, the local police would have robbed you blind and shot your cat.

M. Henri Day, your link led to a page that sold internet names.
But getting back to the article, I am more in agreement with Mr. Vidal.  This is a police state, though, not one that most U.S. citizens would recognize.  It has hight tech reinforcements.
From personal experience:
About eight or nine years ago a young girl disappeared from a swimming pond in Warren, MA.  The next week, I went on vacation to western MA.  During my morning walk to get the papers I noticed a suspicious man in a white compact car that sort of fit the description given in the initial news reports.  I thought of stopping at the police station, but for some reason I rejected the idea.
Later, when this tory was still unsolved and appeared in the tv program, America’s Most Wanted, I called their number to leave a tip.  I was left on the line without talking to anyone except the first woman.
A few weeks later, my trash barrels were stolen from in front of my house.  Then again.  The second time they were stolen, my neighbor told me that he saw a car pull up on the sidewalk and push the barrel down the street, then get out of his car and throw the barrel in the trunk of his car.  A short time later the picture window of my house was shot out by supposedly, a BB gun.  Two policemen visited the house when we called it it.  The next day, when I was at work, a Detective visited my wife, which, as you might imagine, set her off.
During the Bush campaign, I called Stepahnie Miller using the name, Fred, and proposed that Bush was invading Iraq to gain access to the Iraqi water supply, the Euphrates and the Tigris.  This was on a Friday.  The immediate response I got from Miller and her co-cluckers on radio was less than acceptable, and the call-in session was cut short.  Three days later, someone called our house asking for Frederick.  Again, I failed to inform my wife and she just told the caller that “no one by that name lived at this residence.”
The most scary experience, however, is when I sent an email to the TehranTimes.com to proclaim that the Israeli invasion of Lebanon was not in revenge for Israeli soldiers, but it was to destroy Lebanon, the only other democracy in the middle east.
A few weeks later, some one or some persons entered my house while I was out and stole my passport.  I had it in a drawer in a leather carry case.
How I know that some one entered my house is that I left my cat outside, and when I came home, she was inside.  I re-enacted the possiblie scene, and I could see how the cat wanting to get in and the intruder wanting to get out in a hurry might miss each other.
To requote Obama, the Cambridge Police not only acted stupidly, they are beyond stupid.  They shtoopit.

Let us, merely to prove we can do it, return to the subject of Mr Vidal’s article, i e, the United States as (alleged) police state. This brief news article, (http://preview.tinyurl.com/msjd2y) from an impeccable and unbiased source, says it all….

Henri

Is it any harder to do investigative journalism these days?  My guess is that there’s little money in it unless you make it big like George Monbiot, someone like that.

Interesting idea, re people’s militias to protect us from an out-of-control government. (If such a thing is actually possible, we could’ve used it after W. and gang went a little crazy.) The problem is that except for the Electoral College (which, like the appendix, could be removed and never missed), in theory our President is elected by the majority of American citizens.

So in essence we would be waging war against ourselves. We did that once. We should have been able to avoid it and probably would have had we not lost true statesmen like Daniel Webster and Henry Clay over a decade before things got out of hand. The lesson is clear: Elect more statesman-like Congress people, perhaps more in the mold of our current President. Whether you like his policies or not, the man is highly intelligent, articulate, balanced, more concerned about the citizens’ welfare than his political fortunes, and able to control his own ego ... when necessary.

Assuming we are unable to elect wiser and more honest Congressmen, that even an intelligent, well-meaning President is unable to rein in a shift toward a Soviet style police state, and that the U.S. Supreme Court tends to incrementally parse laws that encourage that tendency, what are we left with?

Assuming that we are well-informed citizens of one mind (highly unlikely in such a diverse society; I doubt there would be agreement on many pertinent issues even on this self-selected website), we would have to give the proposition considerable thought and analysis long before the need for a people’s militia arose, by which time it could be too late.

The UK and Euros are far more homogenous, even including their increasing minority groups. The UK is relatively small, and as a people probably more educated and, as Gordy points out, treat their poor more kindly and consistently than we do. They also have socialized medicine. And the monarchy. These elements alone virtually guarantee a more civil society in which people comprehend each other better than we do.

In America, we are divided into too many overlapping yet contentious segments and first will have to identify a common cause or at least a principle that is large enough to join together at least temporarily. Our other problem is that generally speaking, the segment of people who join the NRA and speak of taking their guns from their cold, dead hands are no more likely than outlaws to want to overthrow a goverment unless they can control it and we’d end up right back where we started—a government wanting to control everything.

We have the National Guard, military vets, state and local police, border patrol, regular military, special forces, and government agencies such as the FBI, Secret Service, and CIA. All of these groups have within them individuals who did not sign up to participate in a Soviet-style police state. It would take some time, but the best people to fight unprincipled armed robots of the state are principled armed and trained individuals who are most devoted to protecting the Constitutional, civil and minority rights of all Americans. They also have learned discipline, and many though not all have at least studied if not experienced guerilla tactics, and be helpful in training citizen soldiers. Identifying the right individuals would be the hardest part, and also they would have to understand that they aren’t betraying a trust but protecting a trust—the Constitution’s covenant with the people—not a government intent on trampling that trust.

Gordy, You are spot-on that good investigative reporting read by an open-minded MASS audience is a bulwark in preserving civil liberties. As an ex-investigative reporter and longtime student of the press, the newspaper genre in the U.S. peaked with Woodward & Bernstein and virtually disappeared under subsequent administrations, from Carter and Reagan on. (The very best went independent via magazines and books, e.g. Seymour Hersch, and a decade or so later were joined by writer-researchers such as Sebastian Junger.)

Unfortunately the component lost and never quite regained was the sort of mass readership in the pre-Internet days, when there were still hundreds of good metropolitan newspapers and of course the stalwarts such as the LA and NY Times, both of which had extensive international desks, many foreign correspondents and local stringers. Broadcast pop journalism still pulled in the masses, but except for earnest PBS, television was geared to entertainment and cut its news desks drastically. By then the mass readership had become a mass audience, and accurate information dissemination has never quite recovered, despite the avalanche of material available on the Internet. The vetting (that is, fact-checking) process has pretty much dissipated apart from the thorough work that the best writers and historians do on their own.   

Today, most of the good stuff is international reporting for printed media that have the independence and the money to do it—the NYTimes is a good example and usually doesn’t let its moderate-left stance affect reportage; they even try to balance their regular columnists. It’s very expensive to maintain foreign correspondents and offices and local stringers. As newspapers shink and disappear almost as fast as jobs in the U.S., most foreign reporting has really taken a hit. “Embedded” journalists with combat/infrastructure building/winning-hearts-and-minds teams do pretty well from the on-the-ground level, but when you live with people, whether NATO troops or the Taliban (as Junger did; spent nearly a year running around with Mullah Omar and his soldiers) you become somewhat partisan, hard to avoid, but any voice with actual detail is valuable. Especially when it’s combined with many other voices and other perspectives.

People like to say it’s a small world, usually meaning that human beings are all alike and if we truly understood one another we’d all get along. That is an ideal. The reality is that it’s technologically possible to go everywhere, pollute everywhere, do business everywhere, make war everywhere (or jump into someone else’s war everywhere). It’s very dangerous to interact anywhere in the world without a deep understanding of the cultures and societies in question ... without first clearly understanding the objective ... without considering whether it’s necessary from a survival or a financial point of view, and only then deciding if the interaction is sufficiently ethical and beneficl to dive in.

Guns are not to protect you from noisy idiots, they are to protect you from the police state. I suppose that you might commit suicide or keep a can of gasoline in your house but the rest of us know better. In the final analysis you have as much right to demand that I give up my guns as I do to demand that you give up your imaginary god creature, none.

I dunno people, in the UK for example gun control seems to have little to do with liberty; it seems wrong to take this one strand and believe that so much rests on it.  Civil Liberties have taken knocks here post-9/11 too, but we’ve been a disarmed population for generations and the idea of a militia hasn’t existed here for a long time except for the Home Guard during WW2.  We have a slightly better news media and treat the very poor somewhat better.  I doubt that arming the population would suddenly improve the cause of liberty.  Perhaps it is just a very different context, I dunno. 

I associate recent political oppression with a rise in Regan-style media savvy in politics.  Strong investigative journalism that was actually consumed by a mass market would make a massive difference - we’re living in a time when we really are told, ‘war is peace, freedom is slavery’.  But the intellectual battle is also just another strand.

IQ only measures problem solving ability, one part of intellect. In math, science or even handyman tasks I excel but I am extremely limited on the social level and proper english usage. IQ is irrelevant in most situations, it is not until your truck engine stops 50 miles from the nearest road that you begin to fully appreciate the ability to logically follow out the various systems of the engine to find the problem and correct it.

Social skills must be very important as I do not believe that George Bush was elected for his intellect, or even his language skills for that matter. I guess that you might find me unsuccessful, I never got beyond 9th grade and have not had a job since 1977. On the other hand I paid cash for my house, have never been in debt and have everything that I need. You would be shocked at how well you can do in a barter economy…

I have often advocated for universal military training so that most everyone could have comfort with weapons in general. That and the ethical system of Mutual Aid. Not just in pistols and rifles either! Rather like our compulsory education in general only on an equal level and not based on what the financial situation of any given area.

More in the Swiss model. [Check out Switzerland’s restructuring of their country in 1848 and how they used the USA as a template. Ironic.]

IQ is fine as it goes but hardly a telling bit of information. I have scored 126,145 and 103 in that order about over 6 years of time. Emotional intelligence, how we interact and form alliances and contacts, mean more in the long run. That and happenstance of your situation are more important to your success.

Gordy,

The Minutemen were just ordinary people, they were not part of the military, they were the people.

In the years just before the Revolutionary War, volunteers were organized into military companies and trained to bear arms, these men were called Minutemen, because they were prepared to fight at a “minute’s notice.”

When the Massachusetts militia was reorganized in 1774, the Provincial Congress provided that 1/3rd of all new regiments were to be made up of Minutemen. 

The Minutemen were a form of CIVIL-DEFENSE.

http://www.ushistory.org/people/minutemen.htm

Of the 175 million gun owners only 3.5 million are storm troopers, you tend to paint with a very broad brush. You can rest assured that at least one gun owner is going to live out on the deep ocean and my guns are going with me. Humans are basically stupid, fearful creatures that wish to impose their views upon everyone else and quite willing to use force to do it. If it was not for the second amenment the other amendments would be long gone.

«People that perceive guns as weapons are the real danger, guns are only a tool.» I fear that I fail to understand the above period - are weapons not a subset of tools ? What I wished - but I fear, failed - to convey, was that those with a penchant for using this particular type of tool are probably going to be the storm troopers on which the establishment of full-blown fascism in the United States will be based, if, indeed, it does come. Whether, thereafter, the fate of the leaders of this/these movement[s], will resemble that of Ernst Röhm and other leaders of the SA is something my crystal ball does not allow me to prognosticate, but I do not consider it unlikely ; after all, the suits tend to run things in the end and, given the connexion between fascism and imperialism, they are likely to prefer a professional military to a people’s militia….

Henri

Gordy,

The Constitution does not call for a standing militia, it calls for citizens to bear arms against tyranny if need be. A good way to understand the thinking of the founding fathers is to read the Federalist and anti Federalist papers. Once you have read the written record of their arguments it becomes clear that they did not trust the government that they were creating and wanted to give the people a way to change it if need be. There is no standing militia in America and the veterans that are the militia are a mirror image of the general population. There are no scheduled meetings and I cannot speak for the other members of the militia but this member of the militia is dropping an engine in a pickup truck today. No one leads the militia but the Constitution and you join the militia when you take the oath to defend that Constitution in boot camp.

Yeah, I wonder whether the constitution really had that sort of thing in mind - politically partisan militia.  Could there be a nonpartisan people’s militia?  I can’t conceive of anything workable.  Letting private citizens bear arms lets them quickly form an effective militia in response to tyranny but a standing militia - what would it be about, what would it do every day during peacetime?  Who would lead it?  What kind of people would join it?

Henri,

  The 1.5 million NRA members are a tiny fraction of the 175 million gun owners in America. Using the NRA as a yardstick to measure gun owners is akin to using Hitler as a yardstick to measure christians. You are right that the US is following the path of 1930’s Germany, the first act that Hitler signed was a ban on Jewish ownership of guns. I am following another proud German tradition of the 1930’s, I am leaving the police state. People that perceive guns as weapons are the real danger, guns are only a tool. The thing about guns is that when you need one, nothing else will do.

Henri, thanks for the history lesson - and I kinda had that possibility in mind but I did not know whether the Brownshirts were analogous to a ‘well-regulated militia’.  I’m sure there are those who would debate this with you; and I wonder whether the general populace were allowed to freely form armed groups or did the Brownshirts get special permission.  Did they even have guns?  I suppose I should read this for myself.

I think that militias are neither good nor bad inherently.  They would not be necessary if other more fundamental (psychological and cultural) precursors to tyranny were dissolved.  But we’re muddling along in an imperfect world here, and the climate right now at this point in time is that banks own America, it seems to me.  It’s not some right-wing gun-toting group who are in power but a bunch of suits.  Gun-toting survivalists might be a necessary balance; I dunno - I think the jury’s out when the situation is so messy and it’s easy to see the bad guys working together but hard to spot any real organized good guys.  Half of what the NRA come out with seems pretty ridiculous to me, but I don’t think the US government is so squeaky clean that it can honestly claim to make morally superior usage of its vast arsenal.

Prior to 1933 there were many parties in Germany. Four of the strongest were the Communist Party, the Social Democratic Party, the Nazi Party and the
German National Party. Each had their own militia. Hindenburg, President of Germany at the time, appointed Hitler to the Chancellorship, After Hitler assumed power in January 1933 the Reistag building was set afire(their 9/ll?). It was probably started by the Nazis, however Hitler used this occasion to outlaw the other parties thus making the Nazi party the only legal political organization in Germany.
The above has been oversimplified, a lot of behind the scenes skulduggery occurred.

Ismeal Reed, the African-American playright, has a featured article today in Counterpunch on the Gates incident.  It is long but worthy of study.  there is no doubt that racism in the US is helping to drive the US into a noeliberal police statte.  Apparently the fear fantasies of Whites for non-Whites make them prefer the emotional security of a police state even though their own liberties are curtailed, and theri economic exploitation increased.

the obvious racism and abuse of police power of the Gates incident is now being characterized by the progressive media and rank and file progressives as an ‘overreaction on both sides.’  Gates lack of servility to arbitrary police power is equated with the policeman’s Crowley’s illegality, abuse of power, and deceit to justify it.

What is mainly depressing about the incident is that this is the view of Dem Progressives, including Black professionals.  No effective resistence to the transforming of America to a police state is possible if the population, and their truth leaders, identify with it to bolster their emotional security.

the Bushite administration used the fear and rage provoked by the 9/11-antrax attacks to change the US traditional form of government. The fear regressed the American people, as it does according to the pxychologist Bryant Welch on ‘gaslighting,’ inducing us to identify with a powerful leader, our father figure.  It induced the population to accept childish absurdities and irrational deceit to justify policies strongly against the interests of the people.

The emotional, childish truth that people WANT to believe as true differs sharply from the simple reality-based truth about people and power, formulated from a world historical perspective.  the US contains 4% of the world’s population, and lives in a world of non-White people. The Elitism engendered by imperialist power, and its continuous decline since WW2, appears to have unconsciously influenced the racism that drives US foreign policy toward torture, rape and homocide. 

The War on Terrorism, the formula used to kill and exploit Muslims to steal their oil reserves, has a domestic component as well, since all Foreign policy is based on domestic considerations.

It is this racism that supports the ethnic cleansing and mass murder of Ziofascist Isrraeli policy, overcoming, diverting and suppressing the 20 centuries of anti-Semitism of Christianity.  As long as the Israelis are being racist against the Muslims, the American White population appears to identify with them, despite their unconscious anti-semitism.  This appears to be a symbiotic political perversion uniting the two countries.

In a world with nuclear weapons, this form of irrationality, expressed often as imperialist megalomania, is extremely dangerous.  But how can one combat it, the product of centuries of indoctrination?  The childish irrationality is so pervasive and strongly ingrained.

Gordy, there was indeed a (perhaps not always so well-regulated) «well-regulated militia» in Germany ; it was known as the SA («Sturmabteilung») and was the paramilitary force used by the Nazis on their road to power. The historical evidence would seem to suggest, therefore, that a well-regulated militia doesn’t necessarily render a democratic state (which the Weimar Republic, for all its failings, was) safe from the designs of an undemocratic movement. That being said, it should be kept in mind that Hitler came to power (as, the conservatives hoped, a bulwark against Communism - sound familiar ?) by legal and constitutional means, after a strong showing in the elections of January 1993. After becoming Reichskanzler, Hitler, with the help of his cronies - applauded by many in such countries as the United States, the UK, and France - rapidly divested the state of its democratic trappings. At this point, the SA, whose leaders saw it as replacing the Wehrmacht with a people’s militia, became an embarassement to Hitler (who had more grandioise plans and needed his professional army), and he dealt with it with characteristic dispatch on the (in)famous Nacht der langen Messer), 30 June 1934….

Summa summarium, the problem remains : how does one ensure that the well-regulated militia continues to be well-regulated - and in whose interests ? To my mind, the present-day United States far more closely resembles Germany in the 1930s than it does Switzerland today ; as far as I know, the latter entertains no imperial pretensions (while, of course, being ever ready to profit from those of others). Full-blown facism, if, indeed, it does come to the United States, is far more likely to come with the support of NRA members than against their opposition….

Henri

Gordy,

Thank you. I do not know if Germany had a militia but Switzerland has had a militia for centuries. All Swiss men must own a weapon and are a member of the militia from the age of 16. The Swiss have enjoyed a low crime rate and freedom from attack for centuries. Guns are a lot like alcohol, those that are raised where alcohol is a natural part of life (served with meals as in europe) do not become drunks. People raised with guns used for hunting similarly do not become ‘gun nuts’. The first warning flag of a budding police state is when they take the guns away from the people.

Stcfarms, I appreciated that little treatise on constitutional exactitude.  Tell you what, I used to tend to the view that the American gun-nuts were deliberately ignoring the different, frontier age during which the Constitution was drafted, but lately I’ve come to think that plump, dulled Western people should be a lot readier to take up arms and depose their runaway governments.  Governments lose their moral compass too easily and are not by any innate property a centre of common good.  I think they need to be regulated by the fear of reprisal for crimes, just like the average citizen.  Until such time mayhaps when nation and citizen behave well spontaneously from an innate goodness. 

Was there a well-regulated militia in Germany during the rise of the Nazis?  If there was not, might that have made all the difference? 

Shepharad, I had not heard about Scots dominating UK banking, but Scots and people of Scots descent have dominated the top jobs in the ruling Labour Party in recent years.  English newspapers (and cab-drivers) still make tart little innuendos about this without coming right out as openly racist, and we Scots always listen for the inevitable loss of a Scot’s original accent once he goes to work in Westminster.  I don’t think they put Scotland first; they have bigger fish to fry as London is a world power city, but maybe it helps us a bit, I dunno.  We have our own parliament with some limited self-governing power.  If we had been independent and kept North Sea oil to ourselves we would have been richer than the Saudis… but I don’t get het up about these things.

Sepharad,

I will have 16’ on a side sections hinged together to ride the waves, each section will be supported by 24 60 gallon plastic barrels. Rather than fight the waves it will conform to their shape as they pass underneath. I will go down the Mississippi to the gulf, once I am on the ocean there is a ‘sweet spot’ 250 nautical miles ENE of Belem Brazil that I will head for. At 250 miles out to sea the Amazon is still freshwater.

Someone has to go out on the ocean and create land to reduce the atmospheric carbon. Save the polar bears groups miss the point, you cannot save them unless you return the climate to optimum conditions. Governments are too busy trying to remain in power to give a damn if the biosphere dies. It is possible to return the carbon to 1750 levels as is shown at

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/carbonlevels/

stcfarms, Loved your demonstration of the importance of commas, which I’ve never doubted.

People underestimate the power of precisely articulated language. Still others may err by over-estimating the importance of words because (as semanticist Alfred Korzybski writes) “The map is not the territory.”

What the world needs now is precise language combined with intimate knowledge of the territory underlying any presumed map.

stcfarms, You probably didn’t meet my niece in Haifa—she’s 35, but like your old girlfriend, tough. (Except that she wants to feed, save, or otherwise care for—and hopes to travel—the whole world. Though she is not an American citizen, she managed to get into the Peace Corps after her IDF stint, teaching English in Benin.)

I’m saving your raft posts to show my husband—his kind of thing, if he would ever get off his horse. It must be a pretty big raft, with a garden on the top deck. Self-sufficiency is a huge challenge. Especially on the water. However, if one can do it successfully, I don’t see why your vision of thousands of little points of light on the ocean would be very far out of reach.

Main question is how you have designed your raft to deal with the huge waves and troughs of heavy seas? And which ocean would you set off on?

As a vet with an IQ of 162, you definitely qualify to caution people about a civil war. Or revolution, come to that. If you weren’t dead set on heading off on your raft (the best idea I’ve heard for a long time, considering the options), I’d beg you to stay and add your voice to the great conversation our country has to open or be lost.

I understand your reluctance to help one bunch of whites steal land from a different bunch of whites who stole it from the Indian nations. The whole notion of legitimate private property is bogus, considering the origins. PP has never made sense and never will. The few acres we live on was part of a grant that General Mariano Vallejo (Spanish conqueror of Norte California who simply took it from the Pomo Indians) gave to his daughter and Yankee son-in-law as a wedding present. They subsequently split it up between their progeny and a man with a sawmill who didn’t stop till there wasn’t a tree left. Orchardists moved in and planted. When we moved here husband bought 1,000+ seedlings from Forestry @ 5cents each and now we live in a pine, oak, redwood forest that sticks up for miles. All the remaining wildlife and Pomo spirits live here. I guess in a way our little place is like an unruly raft in a sea of manicured and domesticated modern reality.

[2]  Without the comma, independent clauses may stand by
themselves as complete sentences.  

***Example:  A well regulated militia being necessary to the
security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear
arms shall not be infringed.   The first independent clause A
well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free
state. . . .  is joined by the right of the people to keep
and bear arms shall not be infringed. as the second
independent clause of the same sentence.  (These clauses
would not lose their value if a period separated them.)  Because
we are discussing the Rights of the People, these two clauses
are also essential and unessential.  The Militia part is a
duty
and unessential to the Right, while the arms part is the
essential Right.   

[3]  If a dependent clause alters the meaning of the main clause
a comma should not separate it.  ***Example: The Citizens of
each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of
Citizens in the several States.  

[4]  A comma or coordinating conjunction such as and, or, but, for
or so, may separate independent clauses in the same sentence.
 
***Examples:  No soldier shall, in time of peace, be quartered in
any house without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war,
but in a manner to be prescribed by law.    

Descriptive information not important to the meaning of the
sentence are separated by commas.  ***Examples:  Eternal
vigilance, by the People, is the price of Freedom.  

So why were two commas added?  I am not sure, for the
commas could have been introduced for carelessness, or an
attempt by the scribe to promote his sense of proper
punctuation, or to confuse the meaning, intent, and the
importance of the essential clause by raising the importance of
the unessential clause.  By fragmenting with commas, the
unessential Militia part gains importance while the
Arms part loses its unique purpose.  Because commas may
separate unessential from essential information, the additional
fragmentation disparages the importance of the “right to bear
arms.”  It is for the three commas, and the four sections that
many interpret the Second Amendment as a collective
prerogative of the Militia and the State and not as an individual
right for the People.  

Some may argue, Then why was People used and not
Persons?  

The use of People for describing individual rights is
consistent with other Amendments written between 1787 and
1791.  

The First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting
an establishment of Religion, or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or
the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the
government for a redress of grievances.  These are individual
Rights, not cumulative or group Rights.  

The Fourth Amendment, The right of the people to be secure in
their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against
unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and
no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by
oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be
searched, and the persons or things to be seized. These are
individual Rights, not cumulative or group Rights.  

The Ninth Amendment:  The enumeration in the constitution, of
certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others
retained by the people.  These are individual Rights, not
cumulative or group Rights.

If you still think commas are unimportant read this. “The
government said the people may not own guns” or if you prefer
“The government, said the people, may not own guns”. 

Jerr
“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the state. They forget that the state wants to live at the expense of everyone.”—Frederic Bastiat (1801-1850)

Too often, we make assumptions that are based on information
that is without verification.  Too often, we place our confidence in
those in offices of trust.  Too often, we parrot what they interpret
for us and adopt their bias and their errors for our own truths.  
Should we believe that our scholars, professors and politicians
do not have any political bias or political agenda?  Should we
assume that their interpretations are without error, omission or a
demonstration of their selfish motives?  While it is true that they
may innocently advance such anomalies, we should also
consider they are there by design.  

I believe the addition of two commas to the Second Amendment
was and still is an attempt to refashion the Second
Amendment’s true meaning and intent.  To discover how
commas have affected our perceptions of the Second
Amendment, let us examine some ways commas are used and
what they infer.  

A comma:  [1] is used to link independent clauses of equal
value.  [2] is used to link independent clauses that are, by
themselves, as complete sentences.  (Some clauses  may be
considered as essential or unessential.)  [3] should not
separate a dependent clause if it alters the meaning of the main
clause.  [4] separates two words or parts of the same thought
that without the comma would confuse the intent of the words.  
[5] separates independent clauses in the same sentence or
separate coordinating conjunctions such as and, or, but, for, or
so.  [6] for convenience, or the discretion of the user. *  

*For this monograph, I assume the Constitution is too important
to omit or introduce a comma.  

[1]  A comma may be used to link independent clauses of equal
value.  ***Example: “Congress shall make no law respecting an
establishment of Religion, or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or
the right of people peaceable to assemble, and to petition the
government for a redress of grievances.”  

To understand the Second Amendment we should study it as
it was ratified. The ‘corrected’ versions offered by
the Federal Government or other political organizations are at best foolish, at worst criminal.   It is for

textual differences that we must investigate and decide which
version is true and which is not.  

Words have meanings, and for universal understanding, we
create conventions such as language, spelling, grammar and
punctuation.  Nevertheless, there are times we ignore these
conventions that we may emphasize a point, a convenience,
attract attention or to be creative.  Because these variations are
considered poetic license, they too, are conventions.
However, in transcribing Constitutions, inventiveness,
convenience, drama and creativity must end.  I consider any
variation from the Constitution’s original texts as improper, and
anti-constitutional.  

The U.S. Government Printing Office Superintendent of
Documents, Senate Document 105-11 presents the Second
Amendment as . . .  “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to
the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and
bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”  Notice the three commas and
the four parts.  

According to photocopies of the earliest printings of the Second
Amendment, it should read, “A well regulated Militia being
necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to
keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.”  Notice there is only
one comma and two parts.  

My certainty comes from the photocopies of nine different
printings of the Constitution.  Each version printed in distinctly
different type styles and formats.  [Which demonstrates they
were not reprints from the same typeset.]  They were printed for
distribution in different States, on different dates between 1792
and 1799.  Each were cross referenced for textual
inconsistencies.  I found they all had one comma positioned
after the word State.  Nevertheless, most of the contemporary
printings of the Second Amendment are consistent with the three
comma version.  With this historical documentation, I concluded
that the contemporary three comma version is a fraud, and the
one comma version is correct.  

Gordy, you make a lot of sense. The problem is to make sure that any country’s majority doesn’t scapegoat or persecute its minorities. The great thing about the kind of representative democracy/republic the U.S. has is that it reflects the will of the majority while for the most part protecting its minorities. (EXCEPT, that is, when panic sets in. E.g., Americans put all of their Japanese American citizens into concentration camps on the West coast, and put all Japanese Americans in other parts of the U.S. who refused to take a loyalty oath to the U.S. into other concentration camps. Even those Japanese Americans who did take the loyalty oath found themselves ostracized. One of my dad’s friends, a Japanese American botany professor at Washington U. in St. Louis, spent a lot of the war at our house. (I was too young to remember those days, but he remained closed to my parents until his death.) When I was at university in Chicago, I roomed with my Japanese American girlfriend’s family. Her father had refused to take the loyalty oath and spent the war in a concentration camp near New Orleans. He never learned to speak English, and certainly didn’t approve of my presence in their home (until I finally learned how to eat rice floating in a bowl of tea without spilling it all over the table—after that, he stopped frowning at me all the time). 

To me, the best thing about America is her diverse population and the ideals in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. America is probably where most of the world’s minorities can feel the safest. Yet when problems pile up here, such as financial collapse, ruinous wars, people losing jobs and houses and their dignity on all sides, Anglo Americans have never been shy about blaming more recent arrivals, or culturally distinct immigrants—Chinese, Italian, Jewish, Irish, Mexican, Central American, Asian, East Indians, Arab, Pakistani, Eastern European, West Indians.

But you’re right: many of us ARE here to learn. Debate and rhetoric are not as conducive to learning
as discussion and listening.

Oh—a dear, deceased elderly friend of ours was a proud Scot/Delaware Indian who did not much like the British. He said the Scots finally got their revenge, by taking over most of the British banks. Is that true?

STCFarms has a point!  Self-suffiency is the goal, but not of a survivalist mentality; self-suffiency is important first and foremost in an INTELLECTUAL mentality. Not a mentality of fear, but an overcoming of the fear of NOT THINKING, and just accepting the headline without reading the whole article. Self-suffiency and independence is in no way bolstered, by the way, by the number of gun you have. It is hilarious to me that when the Bush Administration was one-by-one stripping civil rights, these people made no peep about it; now that there’s a Democrat in power and it is Bible truth (apparently) that their President wants to take away their guns, they are so vocal. It doesn’t matter to anyone what those first ten amendments REALLY mean.

Les Ismore,

Les Ismore said:  “This country is still better than anywhere else you can live.”

MarthaA’s answer:  This country is fine.  It is not the country, it’s the government trying to follow the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST Bush administration and RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS on both sides of the aisle in Congress. CONSERVATIVES must be cleaned out of the Left, the Democratic Party.  Blue Dogs and New Democrats absolutely must be removed from their high perches.

FYI, There’s FREE Medical Care, baby sitters, nannys, etc. in FRANCE for the Common Population: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6646340600856118396&ei=9wjmSb3OMp2wqAOL_o25Dw&q=sicko

“Pie in the sky by and by is not enough”.  CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS fleeced the nation with the help of the mainstream churches that undoubtedly receive considerable money for extolling the perils of SOCIALISM for the many while corporate banks and insurance corporations have absconded with, I’ve seen figures in the past of over 400% profit, that should have been dealt to the many, while getting bailed out by that terrible SOCIALISM that the churches despise, while the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION have to beg for proper health insurance and still be in debt for the rest of their lives should a serious medical condition arise, but the CONSERVATIVE churches took their money and patted the Bush administration on the back.

Being the best country for all of the Nobles and Nearly Nobles is not enough when government is run exclusively for the benefit of the Nobles and Nearly Nobles, and not inclusive of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION as a Class and Culture.

The 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION as a Class and Culture want a seat at the table of government to make and enforce law and order that will make the United States of America the best country in the world for the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION, along with the Nobles and Nearly Nobles of the American Aristocracy and the Professional Middle Class, a combined 30% minority population of the United States.

What the Nobles and the Nearly Nobles say is “The United States is the best country in the world for us, maybe not YOU”.

Les Ismore,

Les Ismore said:  “This country is still better than anywhere else you can live.”

MarthaA’s answer:  This country is fine.  It is not the country, it’s the government trying to follow the RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST Bush administration and RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS on both sides of the aisle in Congress. CONSERVATIVES must be cleaned out of the Left, the Demcratic Party.  Blue Dogs and New Democrats absolutely must be removed from their high perches.

FYI, There’s FREE Medical Care, baby sitters, nannys, etc. in FRANCE for the Common Population: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6646340600856118396&ei=9wjmSb3OMp2wqAOL_o25Dw&q=sicko

“Pie in the sky by and by is not enough”.  CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS fleeced the nation with the help of the mainstream churches that undoubtedly receive considerable money for extolling the perils of SOCIALISM for the many while corporate banks and insurance corporations have absconding with, I’ve seen figures in the past of over 400% profit, that should have been dealt to the many, while getting bailed out by that terrible SOCIALISM that the churches despise, while the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION have to beg for proper health insurance and still be in debt for the rest of their lives should a serious medical condition arise, but the CONSERVATIVE churches took their money and patted the Bush administration on the back.

Being the best country for all of the Nobles and Nearly Nobles is not enough when government is run exclusively for the benefit of the Nobles and Nearly Nobles, and not inclusive of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION as a Class and Culture.

The 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION as a Class and Culture want a seat at the table of government to make and enforce law and order that will make the United States of America the best country in the world for the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION, along with the Nobles and Nearly Nobles of the American Aristocracy and the Professional Middle Class, a combined 30% minority population of the United States.

What the Nobles and the Nearly Nobles say is “The United States is the best country in the world for us, maybe not YOU”.

“If it is not, why are you still here, when you can move to Chavez’s paradise and then be subject to being muzzled when you fall out of favor with the whim of the day? Gore, your elitism and self-hate is showing!”—Les Ismore

From your own elitist mouth. Who on earth supported Stalin, Mao, etc? Who here, not those voices in your head mind you. Can you at least have your own thoughts and not this regurgitated reich wing swill that passes for information? Stuff out of the 1950’s.

We would like to correct the mistakes made here on us by the fascist tendencies of the wealthy elites. You know, socialism for the corporation and the rich who own them. The owners paradise of parasitical capitalism. The ones who want a dictatorship of themselves. Rather like Hitler’s Germany, Mussolini’s Italy and Franco’sSpain were. You don’t want to fall out of their favor either.

The Constitution calls for a well trained militia. The military veterans ARE that well trained militia as we have taken an oath to defend the Constitution and are very well trained. Most of us old vets are armed in case we are required to stop an out of control government. We prefer that the civilians remove the police state on their own by peaceful means as you really do not want a civil war. Stop giving the state your wealth, they just use it against you.

Les,

Perhaps in a million years or so your progeny will begin to walk upright and use simple tools, they will be light years ahead of you.

John Hanks,

John Hanks said:  “How does combat in a war qualify anyone to know anything?”

MarthaA’s answer:  Probably wouldn’t for you, you probably have no idea what war is, but war on this country at that time was a grave concern for our family, war info was kept up with really well. Anyone with a loved family member that has fought in a war knows this.  CIVIL DEFENSE protection was something of grave concern, but military establishments terrorizing the people was not what it was all about.  It was about, NO FEAR, but the Bush administration pushed FEAR, big time. 

It is my opinion that men and women who have fought in a war are not as inclined to foist the military off on civilians.  Homeland Security is a military establishment, like what Hitler did,  instead of the CIVIL DEFENSE, a civilian establishment, as it should have been.

Depth and breadth of understanding that is objective based upon objective reality of the battlefield is your answer.  CHICKEN HAWKS can spout sophist propaganda that is intentionally a subjective falsehood with a clear conscience because objectively they have not experienced the objective cause and effect relationship of war on the battlefield; ardee posts like a 12 yr. old that has no objective experience other that that of a 12 yr. old.  Combat in war will definitely ground a person in the objective reality of the cause and effect of war on the battlefield that can be applied later in political life; again, ardee acts like a 12 yr. old, not like someone who is grounded in the objective reality of battlefield experience.

Uh, MarthaA…I think you put your foot in your mouth…again (as usual). 

If I remember correctly, Ardee is a Viet Nam War vet with combat experience.

MarthaA, August 5 at 5:42 pm #

I think you so easily provoked to show how really,truly insane you are..Thank you so much for helping me to show this forum exactly how useless are your lies, distortions and lunatic vision of reality to honest discourse.

ardee the sophist,

Did you get your information from your 12-13 grandchildren? 

As usual, you missed the whole point and continue to make yourself look stupid by trying to show I am saying something untrue, like sophist do.  What I say on this blog is truth, I have no reason to lie, like you.

My brothers fought in World War II.  Did you fight in any kind of war, ardee?  Did you even join the military?

The World War II situation was an EXTREMELY serious situation, but it was handled through existing channels without setting up a tyrannical organization to oppress and tyrannize the population of the United States, as was done by the Bush administration.  I doubt seriously any of the selected Bush administration ever had any war experience.  I think they were all CHICKEN HAWKS, according to U.S. Senator, Al Franken in his book. “LIES And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them, A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right” Page 230 through Page 251.  You should read it.

My brothers fought in World War II.  Did you fight in any kind of war, ardee?  Did you even join the military? 

Whether you like it or not, the people as a whole guarded the country through CIVIL DEFENSE that was set up for that purpose, instead of worthless Homeland Security. 

“The CIVIL DEFENSE is a program of nonmilitary plans and actions for saving lives and property if an enemy attacks a country.”

“CIVIL DEFENSE may also deal with such emergencies as fires, floods, hurricanes, tornadoes, and other natural disasters.  Trained civilian auxiliary groups helped the regular emergency services - policemen, firemen, health officials, and others—in providing CIVIL DEFENSE.”

“CIVIL-DEFENSE preparations range from building huge underground public shelters to training families in first aid.  Canada, Denmark, Great Britain, Norway, Russia, Sweden, and the United States, and other countries have nationwide CIVIL DEFENSE programs.”

“CIVIL DEFENSE in the United States began in a small way in pioneer days.  While Colonial Soldiers fought the enemy, civilians repaired and restored community life at home.”

“The problems of CIVIL DEFENSE are far greater than ever before in this present - day age of modern warfare.  Any country may be attacked with atomic, biological, and chemical weapons from land, sea, or air.  A missile carrying an atomic warhead can speed 6,000 miles in 25 minutes, giving little opportunity for advanced warning.  A country must have all its CIVILIAN and military strength prepared in advance, if it is to survive and recover from an attack.”

“People can do one of two things when an enemy strikes or a natural disaster occurs.  If they have enough time, they may evacuate or leave the endangered area and go to a safe place.  Or they must seek shelter or get under cover if there is not enough time for evacuation.  Every person should be prepared by knowing 1) the CIVIL-DEFENSE WARNING SIGNALS and what they mean, 2) his communities plan for emergency action, 3) the methods for protecting himself from fallout, 4) first aid and home emergency preparedness, and 5) the proper means of obtaining official CIVIL-DEFENSE INSTRUCTION.”—- WORLD BOOK ENCYCLOPEDIA, 1962.

http://www.lansdownecivic.com/Pages/hometown_stories/4_defense.html

Regarding 9-11-01 and the destruction of the World Trade Center and part of the Pentagon; this disaster should have ACTIVATED the CIVIL DEFENSE NETWORK of the United States and CIVIL DEFENSE should have been deployed and upgraded, instead of RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS and their Democratic Party toadies making a grab for POWER, equivalent to the German’s burning the Reichstag and using that as a pretext to install Adolph Hitler as a dictator, to create the Department of Homeland Security and create a network of concentration camps to inter the very people that should have been a part of a CIVIL DEFENSE NETWORK.

BTW, How is it possible for a 12 yr. old to have 13 grandchildren?

Gordy,

  That is the beauty of the rafts, they are unsinkable and cheap, the bad news is that they are extremely ugly. The relationship of height to length and width is important to prevent their capsizing, they must be low and wide. If you hinge the raft segments together they will ride the waves and not offer purchase to the wind. The police state ends at 12 nautical miles but to be safe a 200 nautical mile distance from shore is best. Richard Sowa builds the least expensive rafts from plastic bottles rescued from the trash at about 12 cents a square foot but they are very labor intensive to build. The barrel rafts are about $2 a square foot but you can build 20 square feet an hour. I guess it depends if you have more money or time available as to which style you choose

Stcfarms, do you think this kind of raft could be made ocean-going and unsinkable?  That would be a feat of engineering, I would guess - assuming we’re still talking cheap and low-tech.  It would have to self-right when capsized. 

It would get some distance between me and the police state but not really weaken the police state (desultory nod to topic LOL).

Gordy,

I thought that you might like it. My raft will have all of the modern conveniences yet leave no carbon footprint. I once had grandiose plans of millions of tiny floating homesteads dotting the oceans, growing vegetation to reverse global warming.

Anarcissie:

You didn’t catch me “red-handed” in anything.  MarthaA made a completely inaccurate statement, which I called her on, and you chose to back her up on it.

As usual, you are backing the wrong horse.

Shepharad, was that last post of yours supposed to be addressed to me..?  Here’s my two cents anyway: I like what you said; I think that it’s fine to preserve the distinctiveness of an ancient culture, but the problem is that rivalry seems to always follow this like a shadow. 

You said “What the 20th century taught us was that Jews, however assimilated, are really not wanted except in a Jewish state.”  This is not a problem specific to Jews; it is not like they have some special obnoxiousness.    Not having their own state made them easier to persecute, and sovereignty has given them some extra weight, but think of all the other ethnic peoples who still have no state of their own and never will, like the Kurds.  Getting a state of their own solved a little bit of one lucky culture’s trouble and brought about new troubles.  The same underlying problem defines all of these troubles: group-selfishness, ‘us vs them’. 

If the Scots were a persecuted minority in Britain I might fight for independence and dignity because they are my people, but I would tolerate no illusion that this in itself addresses the fundamental mental/spiritual sickness that ceaselessly drives these perennial conflicts. 

People here like football (soccer) and I think it’s a nice game, but I loathe the chanting and aggressive mob-minded rivalry, and I can somehow say this as a fan of boxing.  But boxing can be intimate and without hatred, and is a direct encounter between two individuals (yeah I have qualms about it too but let’s not get sidetracked) rather than a virtual clash of armies or nations.  I have friends who assert that it is great to feel a part of something and that only a minority ruin it.  I am not sure.  I think a minority are extremely violent to the point where it gets physical, but I think that hate and resentment is more common than the sports fans admit.  I have not made my mind up about whether a ‘sense of belonging’ or self-identification necessarily leads to hatred, but I thought I’d leave the question open for you.  To me, looking at history, ethnic and political groups seems to be playing chess against each other with little concern for the common good.  I might be wrong.  Maybe it has been like this but can change. 

Stcfarms, that is kind of a beautiful idea.  It definitely catches my interest.  I like the notion of living on a boat, and this is a self-sufficient boat.

The UBoat in question was captured off the coast of West Africa.

The submarine watches along our coasts during WW2 , of which several still exist, one just south of Pacifica ,Ca. on Devil’s Slide I have visited several times, were manned by Coast Guard Auxilliary, a hastily recruited force after Pearl Harbor. In addition, the Guard itself, the Air Force and Naval air units also, ran regular sub watch patrols both by ship and by air.

It is true that all citizens living along the coasts were asked to watch as well but to insist that we relied upon civilian assets is just another false “fact” from the usual source of such.

Night-Gaunt,

“For the record I would dissolve the DHS and Northern Command and save all that money too.”

Me, too.

There was a genuine threat during World War II from German U-Boats prowling the American coasts and there wasn’t a Homeland Security then, we relied upon the people to keep a watch out, which is still all the people can rely on. 

http://www.msichicago.org/whats-here/exhibits/u-505/

The Bush administration got carried away, because these private occupations encounters compared to World War II is nothing.

It would save the country a lot of money to completely get rid of the DHS and Northern Command and whatever other Commands that are not needed and go back to what the military was in World War II, only updated, because that worked well.

stcfarms, I don’t believe that Jews or anyone else have been chosen by a god, if god there be. People who defend aggression on the basis of some god’s favor are irrational. If there is a god, what kind of a god would tell his people to kill in his name? What kind of person would tell one of his children to kill another?

You needn’t be religious to be a Jew (though extremely religious people are Jews, just as religious extremism permeates Arabs, Persians and Turks, and a really wild mix peoples who are Christians. I’m not saying there is no component of spirituality in the world—I’ve seen it and experienced it. 

What matters is history, culture, tradition, and respect for other human beings’ lives. Israel is the cradle of Jewish civilization, history, culture, ethics. Not necessarily religion: my great-great grandfather who who returned to Israel in 1828 was on the run from Romanian pogroms in 1828. My great-grandfather told his sons he wanted at least one of them to go to America to ensure one branch of the family survived. (He had no confidence in Europe or England.) My grandfather, like his father, was not a religious man but liked to sing and was cantor in St. Louis temples. My mother was a Communist when she was young but tore up her card when Stalin signed the non-aggression act with Hitler. (My grandmother’s mother’s family were completely assimilated in Dresden, but they all died in Buchenwald.) My family in America is also thoroughly assimilated, soaked in American history and culture, but keep Jewish traditions and holidays, take “Next year in Jerusalem”  seriously. We also stayed in close touch with our family and friends in Israel.   

What the 20th century taught us was that Jews, however assimilated, are really not wanted except in a Jewish state. I’ve met people who prefer Anne Frank the victim to Israeli fighters. Arabs who lived in Israel before and since the Romans renamed it Palestine are equally entitled to their homeland—though old Israel/Palestine was much larger than it is now. Jews and Arabs are only in conflict because around 700CE, Islam began and, as an evangelical religion like Christianity, demanded conversion (at least outwardly) and second-class citizenship for Jews, called “dhimmihood”.

Jews and Arabs understsand one another better than they understand secularists—we’re closely-related Semitic tribes, basically get along, and could be excellent neighbors. My own experiences with Arabs in and out of Israel have been easy, friendly. Much of what Israel is doing just now demands criticism, and I do. In this country, American progressives and liberals (me included) shrank in horror for what our Bush-led government was doing in our name earlier and post-9/11, but it took us eight years to change that government. There have been Israeli governments that aggressively sought peace and there have been Israeli governments—am thinking of Sharon—who saw there would be no Jewish country and no peace without returning some land to the Palestinians. Sharon abruptly orders all Jewish settlers out of Gaza. It might have looked better if he’d negotiated that withdrawl with Abu Mazen.

Peace has become much harder to achieve than it was in the’70s, when Sadat visited the Knesset. Between that time and this, Israelis continuee to press Arab landowners to sell them more lands, have fought in the streets of Arab towns and killed many Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. This only props up the extremist antagonism of Arabs, which in turn feeds Israeli paranoia and makes them more see even Israeli Arabs as the enemy. Lieberman is treating Israeli Arabs like non-citiens, non-persons. This is inexcusable, not just wrong but destructive to any peace. Arabs and Jews need two states. Any country who is concerned can help Israelis and Palestinians achieve this daunting task.

“So? It was still an attack.”

Such was each of your ‘answers’ to me. So? Do facts matter to you or rhetorical points?

“While I agree with the conclusion that the P/A and the DHS are totally unnecessary, how do you figure there’s only been one attack on the mainland of the US? I can think of several, easily.”

“US history didn’t start in the 20th century, you know.”

Your response to MarthaA, after she stated that there had been only one such attack Inherit The Wind. Note the bold highlights. Caught you red-handed, wrong again.

And also note a response to an attack isn’t an attack itself. It is a retaliation. Oh and remember the “Maine” was in Cuban waters when it blew up under suspicious but unproven circumstances that were blamed on the Spanish which gave T. Roosvelt his “splendid little war” in 1898.

For the record I would dissolve the DHS and Northern Command and save all that money too.

You’re right, Radson, the situation is far too serious for recipicral rehtoric.  People should stop rebuting mine with theirs.

Gordy,

You do not need a wilderness to be self sufficient, England has rivers that you can live on. I am building a raft that will be powered by undershot water wheels with a garden on the upper deck. I will be using plastic barrels as a base for my raft. The raft will produce all of the food we need and far more power than we can use. I can build 32 square feet of unsinkable raft capable of supporting 1,000 pounds for $58 US. There are cheaper styles of rafts made from styrofoam or plastic bottles and you can get information on all three styles at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/riverats/

Hello Folktruther

Your posts of late are humorous to say the least and obviously designed to stir a certain controversy ,which ,by the way ,maintains a certain continuity of the discussion .Calling commenter’s ‘dingbats’ is ;
don’t you think a little premature because they don,t subscribe to your point of view.Is not Truthdig a site which promotes literary intercourse amongst opinioned individuals.The choice of
the term Lemming and all of it’s implications ,does not only apply to the one’s that you scorn ,but actually applies to all of us ,with regards to the global instability which reigns at the moment.The massive
security blitz that is going in the US at the moment could be interpreted as a serious case of paranoia promoted by the so -called experts that sound more like fools as the alarm bells sound.Sepharad may
not appeal to your philosophies ,but she is no fool and yes even Zionist’s may not concur with the Foreign Policy that is being promoted at the moment with regards to the Middle-Eastern muddle,but Gore Vidal’s
argument was concerning the American transformation of society towards a dangerous ,Soviet model ’ and that in itself should lead most people to a serious realization that reciprocal rhetoric is perhaps a
convenient distraction that should not be taken lightly.

Shepharad, I look as an outsider at the Palestine situation and see a powerful, favoured nation bullying and ghettoizing the native occupants of that land.  I feel that Israel’s self-justification tends to strike a rather shrill note. 

At the same time I fully acknowledge the validity of what you have said - Israel’s creation may have been relatively recent, but it was no more blood-soaked than the founding of many other nation states.  I say, ‘Israel is here, get used to it’.  Above all, there are human beings there, trying to get by, who have real everyday needs and concerns. 

And it is absurd to idealize those who wish its annihilation.  Middle-Eastern states with appalling human rights records and bloody histories all their own cut a risible figure as they try to mount the high horse, complaining about the iniquities of Zionism and the West.  Whether Zionist or Islamist, I have little regard for these aggressive partisan convictions - in fact, I think they are themselves the problem. 

I have never seen anything like a ‘positive Zionism’ - I associate Zionism with Biblical delusion and clannish self-interest at the expense of those other peoples who are unfortunate enough to be on the ‘other side’ of the mythological struggle for Paradise.  I am not anything like an expert on Zionism.  If people can indeed look after their shared interest and culture without following some crazy doomsday script, or following the destructive logic of ‘any loss sustained by the ‘other’ is our gain’, then I approve of that kind of Zionism, or Islamism, or whatever. 

Stcfarms, I would LOVE to be self-sufficient and far away from most of this civilized bullshit (it ain’t all bad, has stuff I’d try to take with me), but I am a city-dweller with no bushcraft or anything like that, and besides, there’s not really wilderness in the UK in the way there is in the US.  There was one guy living as a hunter-gatherer for many years - he was always in the news because it is so unusual here.  When he got too old to live in a cave on the beach he was taken into a social housing unit. 

This is leaving aside the question of what would happen if many people all got the same idea…

Actually, Garth, you idiot, they weren’t Jews but a tough New Jersey Italians—one was half my age and had played linebacker for a state u. Not a Jew. Not fat. Fast as lightning.

I love how you threaten how you’re gonna hit me…I’m just so shaking—I’ve been hit by far tougher than you.

You are what’s wrong with America today.  Nutcases like you and the birthers.

Actually, Garth, you idiot, they weren’t Jews but a tough New Jersey Italians—one was half my age and had played linebacker for a state u. Not a Jew. Not fat. Fast as lightning.

I love how you threaten how you’re gonna hit me…I’m just so shaking—I’ve been hit by

You are what’s wrong with America today.  Nutcases like you and the birthers.

Sepharad,

The problem is exponentially increased by the three major religions in the area and the book that influences their actions. It seems that these religions are purposely influencing events to make the prophesies of armageddon come true. You all claim to be the chosen people of the god of Abraham but logic would dictate that a sapient being would not be a racist. Since it is illogical that your god would be a racist then the logical conclusion is that somewhere along the line a (gasp!) human made a mistake in interpretaion of its intent. Rather than destroy the world on what may be a clerical error perhaps the three religions could get together and rexamine the evidence and figure out where they went wrong. It should be remembered that 2/3rds of the people of the world do not believe in the Mithra religions and the actions of these religions endanger them.

Gordy, Mark,

There is a way to take away the power of the police state, self sufficiency. Modern slaves are held with fiat money chains that are every bit as strong as the iron chains of the past. Breaking these chains requires the ability to produce what you need without a state approved ‘job’ or borrowing fiat money from them. There is a massive underground economy that is thriving without a state approved job. An underground economy does not feel the NEED to beg for scraps from the faux wealthy because they have nothing that we need. Until the sheep learn that wealth is food, water, energy et cetera they will be slaves to the criminals that supply these needs at incredibly high prices.

garth, in my Aug. 4 comment I asked some questions about one of your sentence’s meanings. If you have a chance to explain would appreciate it.

Gordy, We’ve had other rational, interesting conversations with garth and our discussions do get over-heated. Since his most recent seemingly-anti-Semitic exchanges with Inherit have not been entirely of his others, I’ll suspend my opinion until more conversations have taken place.

I’m routinely demonized here by Folktruther (less frequently by others) as a ziofascist, Zionist lemming, one who identifies with evil etc.—FT is very good at fabricating names to call me. I am in fact a secular Zionist who is not happy with the current direction Israel is taking but my reaction is to try to change that, not give it up as a bad job. I love Israel, have family there, have friends there both Arab and Jew, and, like the 95-year-old Sabra quoted by Omop, am disheartened and disappointed with the increasing reliance on military force and increasing power of religious extremists which I regard as a threat to the state of Israel perhaps not as great but at least as real as the threat posed by her enemies from the outside.
My affiliations with Israel are Peace Now and its political party, Meretz, which is peace-oriented but not pacifist. Its most articulate spokesman is founder and writer Amos Oz. Also, Israel has moved so far to capitalism and so far from its communal roots that it has weakened the moral fabric to the extent that money has become the bottomline for many Israelis, which in itself has led to a larger upper and upper middle cass, a smaller middle class, and a working and unemployed class increasingly poor, Arabs as well as Jews. 

Omop, one the many who despise Israel, quoted President Truman to the effect that Jews would become as cruel as their oppressors if they ever managed to break their status as underdog. It is absolutely true that oppressed people do not emerge as kind and forbearing souls, until they have become accustomed to a modicum of security and some of the scars of the past recede—but these are constantly being exascerbated by continuing Arab hostility to Israel, not to mention the attacks by Hamas and Hezbollah. All these simply push Israelis into being more militaristic and more willing to separate their conscience from the acts of defense to hold off the enemy—which is not really the Palestinians but other Arabs’ doing, though the Palestinians are the ones most likely to be pressed into service as suicide bombers Israelis felt secure, there would probably be far less fighting and more deal-making and cooperation toward the second state, Palestine.

I tend to defend Israel more hotly than I might if I felt that so many people here and elsewhere in the progressive liberal circles where I otherwise have many a common cause, were not so determined to destroy it, not so prone to hate it, and tried harder to understand what most Israelis feel, need, fear. There are a great many individuals and actions in Israel that are despicable, and no one here is more critical of these. But when the whole state and all its people are declared fascist and worse, I feel compelled to defend what is defensible. So many people who post here have always been safe in their own country, sheltered from the realities of the world, and feel free to criticize the actions of others who do not live in such a coddled environment. On the other hand, they seem quite able to explain away despicable terrorist acts against Israel and glamorize those thugs and religious extremists who would destroy it if they could. So sometimes I over-react. And yes, I am very paranoid re the futures of Jews in the world and the Jewish state of Israel. Inherit once said something to the effect that just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean you’re not in danger.

Hey, Gordy.  It seems like my view is similar to Gray’s although I haven’t read his book, but I do have a lot of examples showing that our government is despotic.  However, the article which I provided the link to is published on The Daily Censored http://dailycensored.com/ which is the blog for Project Censored http://www.projectcensored.org/  My work is published on a couple of other online news outlets, too.

The goal does seem to be to deprive the people of the means to hold government accountable.  Unfortunately, as shown in my article http://dailycensored.com/2009/06/24/why-does-the-u-s-government-torture-people/ the most powerful means of holding government agents accountable has been eliminated, and this has resulted in horrible abuses. 

In addition, if anyone thinks that we still have the power to control our government through elections, ask yourself whether you would trust anyone to count our votes in secret, and then see what has happened now that our votes are counted in secret by reading Have American Elections Really Been Stolen? – The Proof at http://www.opednews.com/articles/Have-American-Elections-Re-by-Mark-Adams-081029-64.html  It was a Top Scoop on Scoop for several days. See it at http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0810/S00428.htm

Furthermore, if anyone thinks that our government still follows the rule of law or that it wouldn’t cover up election fraud, see Would Congressional Democrats Cover Up Neo-Con Election Fraud? No Way, Right?!?! at http://www.opednews.com/articles/Would-Congressional-Democr-by-Mark-Adams-081102-529.html This article was also a Top Scoop on Scoop for several days.  See it at http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0811/S00030.htm

For more on the obvious disregard of the best interests and wishes of the general public, see http://www.opednews.com/articles/Senate-Bailout-a-k-a-Bank-by-Mark-Adams-081001-161.html

Finally, for another interesting perspective on what our rulers goals seem to be, check out http://www.opednews.com/articles/If-I-were-a-Terrorist-I-d-by-Mark-Adams-081005-666.html  After all, if we’re poor and hungry, we probably will just roll over, give up, and let government take care of everything, right? 

Some may think that is a good idea.  However, all forms of government, no matter what you call them, result in rule by an aristocracy as government agents are given various powers over the general public.  Some have very limited power and some have vast power.  Therefore, the question is how can you keep the aristocrats from abusing their power. 

Once, some had the means to prevent government abuse of power, but now 3 corporations control the secret vote counts and only prosecuting princes control who can be prosecuted.  Unsurprisingly, we find ourselves living in a police state.  Of course, the only ones who realize this are those of us who are paying attention and those of us who experience it personally.  To learn more about my personal experience, see see “Justice” in Florida’s Supreme Court!?! at http://blip.tv/file/1339250 and don’t miss the links below the video.

Mark, I had a look at your website earlier. 

A few years ago the philosopher John Gray argued in his ‘Straw Dogs’ that the middle-class was being castrated and that we were on the return-swing of the pendulum toward despotism.  Do you agree with this perspective?  I expect that as - it seems to me - an engaged activist type you will disagree with the notion of inevitability, of a cyclical grind of history, but agree with the nature of recent social changes.  And it looks to me that this prediction of this kind of social change has been borne out by time so far.  The recent economic crisis has made skilled people into wage slaves, more than ever. 

I would like to hear your view.

Gore Vidal is absolutely right about our country being turned into a police state.  Your color or ethnic background does not matter, you are either part of “law” enforcement, a person in the power structure recognized by “law” enforcement, or one who can be treated like a second class citizen or worse.

If you don’t believe me, just take a look at the truth about the horrible crimes that are committed every day by agents of the U.S. government and why they get away with committing horrible crimes.  See Why does the U.S. government torture people? at http://dailycensored.com/2009/06/24/why-does-the-u-s-government-torture-people/  You’ll learn that the “news” media has kept you in the dark about a serious danger to your family and that according to a couple of U.S. Supreme Court Justices, we are no more than slaves.

ITW, when I read your reply to my complaint about demonization, I wanted to tell you that I am well aware of the kind of stereotype Garth was drawing on, but that it still did not justify the extreme reaction it got; even if he IS a bit racist, it’s not helpful at all and will only serve to further convince him that Jews are insulated against criticism and it’s all a great Zionist conspiracy - I don’t know, whatever he thinks. 

However, after he stooped so low in retaliation I feel it’s almost a moot point.  It’s pretty weird to have a game of physical intimidation within a purely textual medium… 

So much of the debate on here doesn’t deserve the name - it’s just a playing out of neurotic symptoms.  I’ve seen this thing ‘Christian Apologetics’ where church scholars work full-time to explain away all the Bible’s plot-holes and irrationalities; I see something like this on internet forums.  Everyone starts out from different angles, and they obviously can’t all be right about everything, yet everyone acts as though they are.  Something is fundamentally wrong with this picture, no?  How can they ever arrive at the truth if they only want to become better at arguing for the viewpoint they started out with? 

Garth, that vile trash-talking was just for yourself; no one benefits from that, including you, even if it makes you feel good at the time.  You would at least let off more steam and do less harm by smashing windows and graffitiing walls like a disaffected 13 year-old. 

Judge a person by their means more than their ends.  Someone who shoves their utopia down your throat has the wrong idea about utopia and therefore should shut up, relax and stop trying to argue anything at all.  Time to LISTEN.

Omop quoting Truman, that when Jews got on top they would be as vicious and cruel as when they were discriminated against, was precsient.  But some Jews don’t like it and I am one of those.  The Jewish tradition has had a prophetic strain in it, and this shows often in social theory by Jews.

Averney today on Counterpunch tells of a letter he received from Dov Somebody who displays this prophetic tradition. Dov states that he is a 95 year old native born Israel (Sabra) who has plowed fields, planted trees, sired sons, grandsons and great gransons, and fought wars for Israel, sustaining wounds for her.  And he is sick of what it has become.

He renounces his faith in a Zionism that has failed and renounces his loyalty to a fascist Israel and her mad dreams.  As Averny relates, he is like a modern Jeramiah who who denounces immorality and prophesies the doom that will result from it.

Like averny, howeveer, I think that he is politically wrong.  Zionism has been hijacked by Aipac, Sepharad, and the Zionist lemmings, but there is no reason why an anti-fascist zionism can’t still produce a real one or two state solution.  What is essential however is to provide the Palestinians with support and, particularly, better weapons, and to boycott, etc Israel to combat Ziofascism. 

What Dov should do is join the Palestinians in their struggle, not simply resign in dispair.  And, especially, to combat Aipac, ziofascists,  and the zioinst lemmings in the US, and their bloodthirsty death fantasies.  And foster a distinction between anti-semitism and anti-zionism in the Amereican population, and oppose the latter.  This is a current tendency that can be strengthened.
              ***
gordy you’re a dingbat, as I believe I mentioned before.

I love an unbiased observer:

By M Henri Day, August 4 at 11:20 am #

Interesting turn this discussion has taken, and the passions it has revealed ! Not merely that in the US the perception that the police are incapable/do not wish to protect the citizenry seems to be spreading to all ethnic groups, but that these ethnic groups seem to be arming themselves (yes, I realise that the article talks about «self-defence techniques» and says nothing about arms, but does anyone really believe that in a country like the United States, fire arms won’t be employed ?) against each other. No confidence in the state’s monopoly of violence, armed ethnic groups in an ethnicly diverse country - haven’t we seen where this leads before ? The country is a little more than 220 years old and last fought a devastating civil war a little less than 150 years ago ; is another one in the offing ?...

Well, Garth, you’ve revealed your nazi-ness.

“typical fat jewball”?  Sheesh, you racists aren’t only insipid, your fukin’ un-original too!

I may be fat but I ain’t typical. And I’ve put 265lb athletes on the ground during kick-boxing rounds, so it ain’t all fat. And I know a little about macho assholes like you—though most of the ones I know have the saving grace of not being rabid bigots—unlike you.

Giving maniacs like you martial arts training is about as irresponsible as giving Ted Bundy a pretty girl in an empty parking lot.

Sepharad:“Many Jews who came to the U.S. in the early to mid 19th century migrated to the Western U.S., and a fair number married into Native American families.”
I had just such a friend. She told me that she had Jewish and Cherokee ancesters on her mother’s side. Did not delve further into it. Would have made for an interesting story I am sure.
You can count me in with with you, Truthfolker and ITW as to some comments being anti-Semitic on this board.