By WykydRed, July 8 at 2:17 pm #

Better make sure they can back that one up, nefesh! smile

I have video tape! ROFL

Er… One point here? IS Israel part of the “Western World”? ‘Cause I thought it was like, waaaaaaay over on the other side….

I wanna see someone call Ziva David a slut! After they pick her knife out of their throat that is. hehehehehehe

Maybe it’s just the “isolationism” of the burqa. It’s not just that they represent to everyone who isn’t used to or comfortable with a society known for it’s utter control over women and a rigid set of rules that allows men to beat you or kill you for one, tiny “insurrection”.

Geographically, Israel is in Asia Minor, adjacent to the Sinai Peninsula, which is essentially a land-bridge to Africa by way of Egypt. Our tropicgirl referred to Israeli women as the sluttiest of western women, as you have been reading in this thread, and the only thing she has ever written with which I cannot take issue is that Israel is often considered ‘western’ in many ways, and for good reasons. Sitting pretty much in the middle of the Arab world which stretches from Morocco on the western edge of North Africa to the Arab sheikhdoms on the western shores of the Persian Gulf, Israel is very much like a western democracy - very multicultural, multi-racial, multi-lingual, freedom of religion, political expression, civil rights, thriving popular culture in all its forms, a knowledge-based education system (unlike the Islamic theological “universities” in most Arab countries), among the highest ratio of engineers per capita in the world, etc…
For example, in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv - Israel’s two largest cities - there is an annual ‘Gay and Lesbian Pride Parade’ - similar to what you might see in New York or Los Angeles - thousands of marchers, banners, floats,  and so on. The organizers apply for the appropriate permits, have their event, and go on with their lives. In most Arab countries it is illegal to even declare onesself a homosexual, punishable by imprisonment, torture, and, in Saudi Arabia and Iran (yes, I know it’s not an Arab country) punishable by death. So in many ways Israeli society is very accessible and familiar to us in the west. It is though very rooted in the history and geography of the region - it is the historic and spiritual homeland of the Jewish people, and that tradition is an integral part of the country, and makes it very much a natural part of the Middle East, in historical fact if not so much in shared values with it’s neighbors.

I had to google Ziva David - had never heard of her - yes, Ziva would kick tropicgirl’s ass, no question about it, and I wouldn’t mind seeing her do it, either

When I see a burqa or a chador I think of Islamic misogyny, as expressed in the horrible treatment of women in Afghanistan during the Taliban’s reign of terror - girls never allowed to go to school and forbidden to learn to read or write even at home. Women beaten on the streets for showing even so much as an ankle, if even inadvertantly. Honor killings, wherein a Muslim girl will be murdered by her own father or brothers even for being a victim of rape - for the ‘shame’ she brings to the family.

Better make sure they can back that one up, nefesh!

I have video tape! ROFL

Er… One point here? IS Israel part of the “Western World”? ‘Cause I thought it was like, waaaaaaay over on the other side….

I wanna see someone call Ziva David a slut! After they pick her knife out of their throat that is. hehehehehehe

Maybe it’s just the “isolationism” of the burqa. It’s not just that they represent to everyone who isn’t used to or comfortable with a society known for it’s utter control over women and a rigid set of rules that allows men to beat you or kill you for one, tiny “insurrection”. Islam (any form of it) teaches its adherents to be separate. If there’s a religious ceremony or gathering going on, Muslims are told to “stand apart” and “pay no heed” to what’s going on. They’re supposed to walk past everyone else’s religious buildings as if they haven’t a clue they exist, and when confronted with people outside their religion (say women in “Western wear”), they are supposed to stand apart from it. Now this, from all I’ve read and discussed with actual adherents to Islam (yes, I really DO do that) does in fact give everyone around a determined adherent of standoffishness and a total unwillingness to meld into the whole. And when you emigrate to someone else’s country and stay there, you are expected to merge along with your children and everyone you bring. Maybe the burqa is read as someone turning deaf ears to hopes of, “You’re free here! You don’t have to do that anymore! Come on, woman! Join in the fun!”

It’s like inviting someone into your home, but they refuse to sit on your couch, speak to you, look at you and will simply walk away when offered something to drink. It’s the same thing foreign men who look “Arabic” endure because someone looks at them and instantly jumps to the conclusion, “Oh, you’re one of them”, meaning of course a man who doesn’t even think women are human and should be allowed out of the house or to speak otherwise they’ll get beaten with a stick. (Israeli men find THEY are thought of in the same mode as well, believe it or not.)

It’s not really about fear, it’s about rudeness!

Just a thought… I don’t even really know.

By WykydRed, July 7 at 5:57 pm #

... Got her goat. ROFL

You haven’t even alarmed her camel spider. The questions asked of you, tropicgirl are intriguing. They’re easier to answer if you take ‘em one at a time. And I find myself intrigued to read your answers.

luv,
Just Another Western S.L.U.T. (Slinky Little Uber-nasty Tart)

I can’t wait to tell the female members of my extended family in Israel that they are the sluttiest women in the world, according to tropicgirl. After all, she knows whereof she speaks, doesn’t she? Or does she? 

By tropicgirl, July 7 at 5:02 pm #

I stand by my comments. Every single one....it takes a special kind of person to stand by your comments, and I’m glad I am not that kind of special…

I guess its ok to bash Muslim women for wearing clothing of their choice, but Israeli women can’t be “critiqued”?...1) I never bashed Muslim women for any reason - can you show me where I have? No, you cannot 2) You didn’t ‘critique’ Israeli women at all - you called them the sluttiest women in the western world. You may think making such a baseless and ugly broad-brush slur is a critique, but you are wrong. It is nothing more than a bigoted remark…  I for one won’t put up with it. Israelis are not royalty. And apparently you just can’t stand it....You are right - Israelis are not royalty, and they never claim to be, and neither have I claimed them to be such. That is something you invented. So there you go inventing questions asked of you and then answering them. Very peculiar behavior…

Zionist Israel has no “society”. Its just a bunch of ignorant, sick, immoral, thugs, in my opinion, breeding more of the same ignorant, sick, immoral thugs....LOL - I can only laugh out loud at that. Your hysteria is amusing, made more so by your ignorance. You would not fit in well in Israel, of that I am sure. They value political freedom, intellectual pursuits and creative, energetic, entrepreneurial people - to think, to write, to invent, to make music and art and new medicines, to raise their families in a just and moral society despite the immense pressure from regional forces with attitudes like yours, tropicgirl… I wouldn’t go there if I were paid to....don’t lose any sleep over it, that is not going to happen - as I said, their hard-earned resources won’t be wasted on a net burden such as yourself…

I’m not the only one....true, you are not alone - unfortunately, the world is full of bigots and ignorant haters… Glad I got your goat....uh, no… It makes me very happy. Happy trolling!

Now I truly am done…

... Got her goat. ROFL

You haven’t even alarmed her camel spider. The questions asked of you, tropicgirl are intriguing. They’re easier to answer if you take ‘em one at a time. And I find myself intrigued to read your answers.

luv,
Just Another Western S.L.U.T. (Slinky Little Uber-nasty Tart)

I stand by my comments. Every single one.

I guess its ok to bash Muslim women for wearing clothing of their choice, but Israeli women can’t be “critiqued”?  I for one won’t put up with it. Israelis are not royalty. And apparently you just can’t stand it.

Zionist Israel has no “society”. Its just a bunch of ignorant, sick, immoral, thugs, in my opinion, breeding more of the same ignorant, sick, immoral thugs. I wouldn’t go there if I were paid to.

I’m not the only one. Glad I got your goat. It makes me very happy. Happy trolling!

Now I truly am done…

Way to go again TruthDig! I do in fact count on you folks to introduce a relevant advertisement to the discussion! That wasn’t a smart-assed comment, by the way, it’s truth!

The EastEssence.com ad is good! I found a lot of them very, very nice and I have in fact, worn them growing up, not because I’m Muslim, just the places I’ve lived and the times, this cut of dress was considered “comfy” at the time. (I had the same cut of style with pineapples all over it in Hawaii.) Yes, they are nice.

But I’ll tell you what, the day that not one woman is forced to wear one, the day that the headscarves are a fashion choice and not mandated, the day that not ONE woman anywhere in the world is beaten, set on fire, killed or in any way aggrieved, the day that girls going to school to learn what every boy is allowed to learn, the day that not a single child is locked into a school while it burns down around her, I’ll buy 5 or 6 of them and wear them any damn place I feel like wearing them. Hell, I’ll collect the entire set!

They should go well with my belly dancing outfits, my Indian saris and my hula gear. I’m kinda worried about my harem pants because they make my big ass look HUGE, but what the hell. They have great embroidery and the mirrored sequins are killer.

By tropicgirl, July 6 at 5:39 pm #

Specific knowledge of western women? I say, yes, I do have specific knowledge of western women....ok, one more time: you have trashed Israeli women and Israeli society in no uncertain terms, and I challenged you about your specific knowledge of Israeli women - how many do you know, and how do you know them? Have you been to Israel and experienced the many facets of society? You have evaded that question because you HAVE no proper way to back up what you say - no specific and reliable way to verify what you say because you do not speak from experience….jeeez…

Specific knowledge of Muslim women? Yes, in the way they view western women, as slutty, it is well documented....show some documentation that “Muslim women” (all? some? how many? from which Muslim countries? there are so many) view western women as sluts…I bet you there are many more who envy and admire what western women can do in their societies, and aspire to such freedoms for themselves…you speak in terms of monolithic blocs, and that’s so simplistic it almost defies a serious response, but you are offensive in your rather bigoted and simple-minded blanket statements, and you need to be called on it…

Specific knowledge that Muslims fear Israelis most of all? I think that is a reasonable conclusion....specific knowledge is not the same as drawing a conclusion…so when you say “Muslims fear Israelis most of all”, do you mean Muslims worldwide? You actually believe a Muslim in Kuala Lumpur fears nothing in life more than Israel? That’s idiotic…

Specific knowledge that invading western forces have often deliberately undermined the cultural structures of their targets? I say, yes again....that is not a question I asked; you are doing it again - changing the subject by trying to answer a question that was not asked of you…

Specific knowledge that Muslim women, and other targets, have been forced into prostitution due to their husbands being killed or locked up in little boxes? Yes, again. As in Iraq....it’s no secret that women in many Muslim societies today are subjugated in ways we would never tolerate in the west you seem to despise so much…your point here is not taken (shocking, isn’t it)...

You still don’t get that the “exclusion” you and I speak about is not necessarily a bad thing, is what I AM arguing. Your pre-conceived idea is that everyone thinks it is a bad thing that women have pre-ordained, subdued roles in their society....no it isn’t and you cannot point to anything I have written that says I do. You actually have no idea what “pre-concieved ideas” I may have, if any. In fact, you know nothing about me other than that I am offended by bigoted, gross generalizations like yours, especially when I challenge you to support your outrageous assertions and you fail to do so every single time… We are starting off at different points....I have never been to outer space, that’s true…

My final point, and then I am done with this conversation...yay…, or whatever it is:

Liberation of women, whether Israeli or other “western” is not, in my opinion, in itself, a good thing if it causes the women to act just as stupidly and decadently, in war and oppression, as the liberated men, (such as criticizing what other people wear, and calling it a matter of “security”)...liberation causes women to act stupidly and indecently? What does that mean??? I can only guess that your point is that “liberation” is “bad” because it will impose some unspecified evil “decadent western values” on women who, you seem to say, haven’t enough sense to resist… you are a bobblehead with a mean and degrading spirit…

Now you see how stupid that sounds?...coming from you? Yes, every single time… Probably not.

Specific knowledge of western women? I say, yes, I do have specific knowledge of western women.

Specific knowledge of Muslim women? Yes, in the way they view western women, as slutty, it is well documented.

Specific knowledge that Muslims fear Israelis most of all? I think that is a reasonable conclusion.

Specific knowledge that invading western forces have often deliberately undermined the cultural structures of their targets? I say, yes again.

Specific knowledge that Muslim women, and other targets, have been forced into prostitution due to their husbands being killed or locked up in little boxes? Yes, again. As in Iraq.

You still don’t get that the “exclusion” you and I speak about is not necessarily a bad thing, is what I AM arguing. Your pre-conceived idea is that everyone thinks it is a bad thing that women have pre-ordained, subdued roles in their society. We are starting off at different points.

My final point, and then I am done with this conversation, or whatever it is:

Liberation of women, whether Israeli or other “western” is not, in my opinion, in itself, a good thing if it causes the women to act just as stupidly and decadently, in war and oppression, as the liberated men, (such as criticizing what other people wear, and calling it a matter of “security”).

Now you see how stupid that sounds? Probably not.

By tropicgirl, July 6 at 3:13 pm #

OK, lets start at the beginning. I never singled out Judaism for excluding women in a bad way. I singled them out to say the expected women to have a pre-ordained role, like mostly all cultures that I can think of, historically. Excluded is not the right word. Women had a pre-ordained ROLE.

There is a huge disconnect in your rhetoric from comment to comment. You dig holes for yourself, and when challenged on the validity of your specious charges, you shift the topic to evade having to dig yourself out.

You still haven’t answered how you have come by specific knowledge to make such ugly assertions, as detailed below. You are still blowing it out your ass, and that is one mighty wind.

You are just one more inane Truthdig poster.

OK, lets start at the beginning. I never singled out Judaism for excluding women in a bad way. I singled them out to say the expected women to have a pre-ordained role, like mostly all cultures that I can think of, historically. Excluded is not the right word. Women had a pre-ordained ROLE.

Do you get that now? YOU complained about the Muslims excluding women. I said all cultures appeared to do that, including what I am guessing is your own.

I use the word slutty because its a word that you can understand and represents fairly accurately how Muslims see western women portrayed. Western culture promotes women to wear less clothes, to act “the same as men”, to make their own sex movies, to get abortions, to get divorces at will, to join soldiers in wars against them. This is bad behavior to them. I can fully understand that and they have a right to feel that way. Most cultures throughout the ages have felt the same way about this kind of behavior, whether or not you or I agree.

Every culture has the right to their own opinion, as long as they don’t hurt others because of it. Just because you (perhaps) support Israeli Zionism doesn’t mean that it is right, or that it gives cause to steal land and demoralize an entire people.

Again, I mention Israelis because they are the “most western” in the Middle Eastern realm. They love western values. And, let’s face it, to Muslims, a lot of western and Israeli men are also bad actors. Muslims see the Israeli Zionist as their worst threat, with good reason.  AFter all, what other Muslims and enemies of Muslims would be relevent here? I really can’t think of another group who, across the board, attacks Muslims to this degree.

Just because Israeli (or american or other westerners or european) women have “more rights” doesn’t mean they are better to some cultures. To some they may have made cultures worse. To me, more rights mean more responsibility to promote the good in society, like peace. If women “with rights” act like ignorant, slutty warmongers, that is NOT progress. (Yes, sex does sell war, always has, especially in the “west”).

And if Sargozy supports this, then he must have some reason or linkage to want to go there, most likely political. (I guess there is an AIPAC in France). Personally, I find it intolerable.

Keep on attacking Muslim women for wearing the clothing of their choice and the choice of their intact society. At least they have good reasons.

What are your good reasons for criticizing the Muslim women’s dress? Fear that they will get in a driving accident? Really? I feel Israeli Zionists would rather bomb them, anyway. It sounds a little disingenuous at this point after all that’s happened.

By tropicgirl, July 6 at 1:39 pm #

”...Were women allowed to participate in the priestly rituals of early Christian churches? Were women allowed to lead mosques in early Islamic societies?...”

What are YOU getting at? Do you even know? You’ve lost me. Probably not, to the above question, but that would be MY point, wouldn’t it?

I was very clear the first time. I asked you why you singled out Judaism (in antiquity) for discriminating against women, when, in fact, your point could have been made with virtually all known religions as examples.

====================================

Its the Zionist Jews. And, from what I can see, the Zionist Jews have a degenerate social culture of war, money, violence, brutality, usury and have simply become the schoolyard bullies of Europe. This, unfortunately, includes the women of that culture.

Europe? Catch a clue - the Europeans did a pretty good job murdering most of their Jews in the 1940s.

Again, where is your data for drawing such a conclusion about Israeli women? First you say they are the sluttiest of western sluts (oh yeah, you did), and now the rest of their culture is degenerate? How many Israeli women do you know? How much time have you spent in Israel immersed Israeli society for you to make such a certain condemnation?

I am guessing you are still blowing it out your ass, flapping your butt-cheeks, and don’t have any first-hand knowlege. Please correct me with specific credentials you have earned so that I might accept your foul pronouncements as reasoned conclusions.

“...Were women allowed to participate in the priestly rituals of early Christian churches? Were women allowed to lead mosques in early Islamic societies?...”

What are YOU getting at? Do you even know? You’ve lost me. Probably not, to the above question, but that would be MY point, wouldn’t it?

I single out the Zionist Jews because they are obviously on a “mission against Islam” for land and other things. I think its fairly obvious that they are champions of whatever anarchy they can invent in Muslim countries. Others have their own reasons to join in with the Zionists. Perhaps shared financial interests. Who knows?

But let me make one thing clear. I believe that most honest citizens in the world have NO PROBLEM with Muslims, Muslim women, Muslim children, Muslim ways of worship, Muslim dress and Muslim customs. Most of us don’t consider the Muslims enemies of ours for any reason.

Its the Zionist Jews. And, from what I can see, the Zionist Jews have a degenerate social culture of war, money, violence, brutality, usury and have simply become the schoolyard bullies of Europe. This, unfortunately, includes the women of that culture. Of course, that is my opinion but I suspect I am not alone. And, I am not necessarily against the enemies of Zionist Jews, just because I am american.

By the way, does anyone know WHY we are fighting the Taliban? We were supposed to be on some sort of a mission to find Al Queda. What happened? Doesn’t Congress or at least the American people have to agree somewhat before we attack another group of people with our young soldiers? With Obama its just one lawless war after another.

See what I mean? The Zionist Jews are totally out of control, and they are truly degenerate. Something needs to be done to stop them.

By tropicgirl, July 6 at 12:17 pm #

I hate to clue you into this but society (western and eastern) has operated this way since the beginning. (Exactly WHEN were women allowed in the Jewish temples?)

Again, why single out Jews?

Were women allowed to participate in the priestly rituals of early Christian churches?

Were women allowed to lead mosques in early Islamic societies?

Why are you repeatedly hitting on Jews?

By tropicgirl, July 3 at 4:23 pm #

johannes—

I agree with that thought, screw the west. These women are chaste. That is something a western female slut knows nothing about, especially Israeli ones, for example.

Still waiting for you to describe your expert understanding of Israeli society which allows for such a sweeping generalization. What is your methodology for arriving at such a conclusion?

If you can’t back it up, why wouldn’t it be fair to conclude you simply make insulting ethnic slurs, then?

“A woman who wears the burqa or niqab (which covers the face but not the eyes) is either submitting, willingly or otherwise, to male domination”

Of course they are, that is IF THEIR SIGNIFICANT MALE IS NOT DEAD OR IN A LITTLE BOX SOMEWHERE.

They are submitting to the “male” to 1) feed them, 2) take care of them, 3) defend them 4) protect them 5) take care of their children, 6) provide shelter for them and their children, 7) interpret society and the world to them if they are unable to read or understand themselves, 8) fight wars for them defending their country, 9) teaching and reinforcing their mutual religion within the family and the community, 10) transporting them in a car and other means of transportation, and so on. Some western men could learn something about responsibility here…

I hate to clue you into this but society (western and eastern) has operated this way since the beginning. (Exactly WHEN were women allowed in the Jewish temples?)

Although I agree with feminism, in a constructive way, you could say it is inappropriate for societies that are not setup that way. Bad things can happen if everyone is not on the same page, as I mentioned before. And, as I said before, conquering empires love to disrupt the family structure. That is the nature of conquest.

And besides, some feminism is not all its cracked up to be, such as women being drafted for war. I have a problem with that.

By tropicgirl, July 3 at 4:23 pm #

johannes—

I agree with that thought, screw the west. These women are chaste. That is something a western female slut knows nothing about, especially Israeli ones, for example.

What does that mean?

Are you saying Israeli women are sluttier than ‘western female sluts’

Do you have a qualitative and quantitative analytical system to determine the “slut” quotient of an Israeli woman compared to all others in the west?

How have you arrived at such a conclusion, and why does it sound like you are just blowing it out your ass?

@WykydRed: We are trying about suppressing religious programs, but boy its is difficult and so as not to advantage one cult over the other, public television on Sunday morning is a litany of Jewish, Catholic, Protestant (Calvinist) and Moslem programs. I’ve given up on television long ago, so it does not bother me. But that is laicity the French way, we dont suppress religion, we are free to choose!!!!

Quote:  A woman who wears the burqa or niqab (which covers the face but not the eyes) is either submitting, willingly or otherwise, to male domination in a particular version of (non-Quranic) Islamic practice, or is voluntarily affirming her difference, alienation or religious rejection of the society in which she lives.”,

From RAWA:

Self immolation:
http://www.rawa.org/self_immolation/index.htm

Beating of women, by the Taliban:
http://www.rawa.org/beating.htm

Public Execution by the Taliban:
http://www.rawa.org/murder-w.htm

Human Rights Abuses….in Afghanistan (a slideshow)
http://www.rawa.org/tymstrt.htm

(Overall view) Photo Gallery of abuses in Afghanistan (all sides)
http://www.rawa.org/gallery.html

The burka, and the wearing of it DOES have meaning.  It is apparent…. it doesn’t mean anything good, regardless the professed “sacredness” of its adherents or its patronages.

It’s okay, andrushka! They STILL do that here, only now it’s a bit more subtle. Can’t tell you how many job interviews I’ve gone on where the interviewer was wearing a cross around her/his neck and “playing” with it. Just sliding it around, like people do when they’re playing with a dangly thing on a necklace. I’ve had friends who left both Pentacostal and Evangelical “churches” because they’ve all come up with that as a way to identify “christians” from “the rest of the garbage”. If you don’t say the right thing when you notice them playing with their cross, you aren’t even considered for the job! They only want to employ “their kind”. The rest of us are shit out of luck for a job. Rotten, stinking bastards the lot of them.

While you’re at banning the burqa, tell your government you want ALL religious programming removed from television. The “dominionists” (i.e. Pentacostals, Evangelicals and yes, even Baptists) are kicking a BIG fuss because Brazil is removing ALL religious broadcasts from their tv. Good for them! They will not tolerate what’s being said, with the hate and the “ignore your government, join us and unite this world in christianity NOW or god won’t come back!” And they don’t tolerate the greed, especially since no one seems to be keeping fiscal track of these assholes and what they’re doing with the money they terrify out of old people’s pockets.

Brazil has seen the blatant attempt at demanding their form of “christianity” be forced on everyone whether people like it or not, and they’re blocking it! The whining articles, written of course by followers who are trying to gain more control in “evil” Brazil, are blaming it on .. get this - The Gays! Yes, every article brings up “the powerful gays” and all the money and influence they have in government. They refuse to print the real truth, that Brazilians DO NOT WANT that form of religion anywhere near themselves.

So keep shouting and blocking things. The only way to stop them is just to entirely make them unwelcome, illegal and unheard anywhere.

@WykydRed: Of course you are totally pardonned! I’m glad you understand the French’s point of view regarding religion! I remember long time ago (in the sixties)in the States, I was applying for a job in a bank.  The fellow who interviewed me glanced at my CV saw that I was a roman catholic (at that time, now, needless to say, NO longer….)and he said: well, why don’t you go next door, they are R.C. they’ll help, here we are baptists (or methodists, I don’t recall), that came as a shock to me, I tell you!

Tropicgirl:

““To most of us, a burqa has no religious or cultural meaning or significance”
Here I doubt you and yours would know what real religious or cultural significance is if it slapped you in the face.”

You obviously either misread or misunderstood. I didn’t say the burqa doesn’t have significance to the WEARER. I’m sure it does. I said “TO MOST OF US” meaning the non-burqa wearers and non-members of the religious denominations associated with them. The burqa means NOTHING to me. Why should it?

“...you think it is SAFE or UNSAFE is a matter of no concern to anyone but yourself.”

Hey there Tropicgirl… you aren’t thinking straight. Ever try driving in freeway traffic with a full burqa on. If you don’t think that’s dangerous to both the driver and to everyone else on the road you’re sadly mistaken.

Sorry you think it’s just dandy that women “... humbly serve their families and their husbands…” Yup. Just what women are born to do - serve humbly. Even better if they can do it anonymously from inside a tent with a peekaboo hole in it.

And as for the rest of your posting - not really worth responding to.
I think you’d better get a checkup, Tropicgirl - there’s a few screws loose somewhere.

Well I thought the drivel that I heard from you deserved a little more than frankness. I think the world has had enough of european superiority. I still don’t know who the “we” is. You love the western “way of thinking”? Really? Maybe you should study the history of the west a little better and list the number of groups exterminated, and while you’re at it, count the number of groups whose women were forced into prostitution to support themselves by the “WEST”, after, of course, all their men were killed or incarcerated. And these were women who would never even consider. Start with every native culture, aboriginal, american indians, south american indians, blacks, browns, and end up with the muslims.

Love that “western way”... Have a nice day.

@ Tropicgirl

To discus items like this you need a certain intelligence, otherwise it becomes an hatefull
encounter, and that is not what I am looking for.

Kind regards

johannes—

I agree with that thought, screw the west. These women are chaste. That is something a western female slut knows nothing about, especially Israeli ones, for example. (I’m assuming thats who the “we” is).

“To most of us, a burqa has no religious or cultural meaning or significance”
Here I doubt you and yours would know what real religious or cultural significance is if it slapped you in the face.

And RAE—whether you think it is SAFE or UNSAFE is a matter of no concern to anyone but yourself. It is much more dangerous to go around with “hate” speech and bigotry as we have seen the results of western hate and bigotry behind the wars against the Palestinians, Iraquis, Pakistanis, Afghans and anyone else Muslim. Death and destruction. You are DEFINITELY more dangerous.

It really kills me to see you “no dick” men so scared of these women who humbly serve their families and their husbands. Hilarious. BOO! Run away now.

I may have missed it in other comments but I have two concerns re burqas in our Western societies:

(1) I consider them to be an UNSAFE dress when at work around any moving machinery, when driving a vehicle, or even when just walking down the street. How is the wearer supposed to be aware of what is around him/her (yes, HIM - see next paragraph)? How, when your world view is limited to straight forward, is anyone supposed to navigate freeway traffic? With all those flowing yards of cloth it’s only a matter of time before the wearer becomes entangled in almost anything moving.

(2) Prevents identification of the wearer - could just as easily be a man as a woman. A great amount of our interpersonal communication is carried out using the expressions of the eyes and face. These are not available underneath a burqa. What is to stop a potential “terrorist” - MALE or female - from packing themselves with explosives then don a burqa to disguise the bulk? Nothing. No security camera is going to reveal any useable ID - besides, the garment can easily be removed and dumped. In western society today I believe a burqa-wearer is considered a POTENTIAL security risk - a potential threat if you like - to everyone in the vicinity. Don’t think so? Try entering a bank wearing a burqa - you’ll be lucky if the guard doesn’t draw his gun! I don’t know what would happen if you walked into an airport terminal in the USA and tried to buy a ticket and board a plane.

None of this objection has anything to do with culture, race or religion. If a woman wants to wear a burqa I suggest she be free to do so in her home or its surroundings, or in her mosque. Nowhere else in public. To most of us, a burqa has no religious or cultural meaning or significance - it’s pure mystery and threat. We have enough of that that we cannot control - we don’t need more piled on that we do have some control over.

@tropicgirl

I could not say it clearer, the feeling we have about this kind of people, what they think about us
” SCREW THE WEST “.

The so called small etnic groeps, who say they come from countrys where they can’t live, and are oppressed, afther some time they see our weekness, freedom of thinking and behavior, than they start under guidance of some Imams to create their small country in our countrys, and if you do not like this they say hé you are discriminating, and than their are some stupid politicians who see people you know voters.

Well we are still proud of our countrys and of our European culture’s, and for us it is not possible to let an dogmatic religion change our country’s and put us back a good 500 years.

This has nothing to do with racisme or discrimination
but with healthy clear thinking, and love for our way of living and thinking.

I think a lot of religious people would consider Sarkozy immoral in many ways. And this is a very racist piece, sorry. Blatantly.

Why is everyone so scared of the burqa or the niqab? I’ll tell you why right now. One of the tactics of “conquoring” civilizations is to demean the women of it. Feminists will understand, and perhaps anthropoligists, would affirm that destroying the female of a society is just about destroying society. This is why the west ACCEPTS AND EVEN CAUSES THE BY-PRODUCT OF WAR ON A POOR COUNTRY, FORCED (by events) PROSTITUTION, which is what has happened in Iraq, and just about everywhere else we intrude to conquor.

The burqa and the nigab actually PROTECTS THESE WOMEN IN THEIR OWN SOCIETY and MAKES IT MORE DIFFICULT, IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE WEST TO RUIN THESE WOMEN.

The west knows what it is doing. These women will rather die than be forced to demean themselves. Thats a battle the west will lose with them, and a noble one on their part.

So, I guess the head coverings that were required when I went to Catholic Church would be forbidden also? Early Christians did this as well.

These coverings PROTECT these women IN THEIR OWN SOCIETY and keeps their family structure and order intact. It keeps them protected in the inner circle of THEIR cultural structure. Screw what the west wants.

And, you have to judge the masculinity of these men who are so scared of these pious, humble, upstanding mothers and wives. I guess these men don’t know what a woman like that is, since theirs are probably just the opposite, whether Israeli or western.

Okay, andrushka, I wasn’t slamming France, but praising it! And my grandparents are French. In France… Two of my Great Aunts were hung from lamp posts by the Boche.

I meant to try to get a working permit if you’re American or some other nationality like British. (Yes, I have Brit friends in France. They’re ex-patriated because they love France a hell of a lot more than England.)

I happen to love a country that tells the overtly religious to go get bent. I’m immensely sorry if you took my comments as a grievance against France and not the appreciation they were meant to be.

@WykydRed: what do you know about France? Working laws in France are that of the European Union, i.e. if you are from one of the European countries, there is no problem in obtaining a working permit. Otherwise, you may not be aware of the unemployment problem France has been experiencing for the past 15 to 20 years and it would be a burden to give work to everyone who wants it inasmuch as France would gladly do! Now about religion, France made the choice in 1905 to really separate religion from government as it had had enough from the prevalent catholic representation to meddle in government affairs.  It is France choice to be a lay republic, and WE are proud of that. It means in other words, that everyone is FREE to follow his own credo, AND leave the others to do as they choose, so long as they do NOT proselytise. You see in France, contrary to the US (where I lived for a good 12 years), religion IS a very private matter and should remain so.

A libertarian view—

Freedom’s the answer, folks. If a woman wants to wear a burqa, a chador, or a hijab, that is her business. What someone else chooses to wear in public is their own affair. As long as it doesn’t hurt me, why should I care?

As I understand it, the Koran does not endorse any of these garments. The Koran simply calls for women to dress “modestly,” but does not go into detail as to what is modest and what is not. That is apparently left up to each community. In Indonesia—the world’s largest Muslim country—women typically just wear a hijab—a scarf. In Saudi Arabia, it’s the full head-to-toe coverage. In Iran (the subject of our Washington masters’ most current hate-fest) you get the whole gamut, from chador to hijab to completely western.

So long as the choice of what you wear is voluntary, who cares? By the way, governments are notoriously bad fashion designers, whether they are western governments, commie dictatorships, or Muslim theocracies. Does anyone really think Post Office uniforms have any style whatsoever?

@ Andrushka

I don’t give a fu… if you find me a racist!!!!!!!!

Its my country my people my heritage of culture and human behavior.

France and Europe in general is thru and thru democratic, if people come and want to live with us, well they have to live as our citizen, and don’t start to denigrate our way of live, for example.

Sharia law, Burqa’s, circumcision, woman ad home like domestic animals, the most woman don’t speak the language from the country where they live, well they do not integrate, and find our woman hoers, well
we are proud of our encesters, and if they want to live in the dark ages so be it, but not in our country.

Well Andrushka, we have our foults, but it is still our country, and we will do everything that it stays like this, et rien a foutre with the Arabs.

First point, the term burqa is definitely not the right one to use, but rather the niqab. I agree W.Pfaff that France has not been successful with its immigration and the blame has to be put squarely to the Government which has done very little in education and schooling in the subburbs by putting consistently young and inexperienced teachers there. The Government has also consistently abandonned all kind of public services there and therefore leave the initiative to poorly educated self-made imams coming from Morrocco or Algeria. Second, employers cery often will not hire people with a “funny” name. Unfortunaly, French from second or even third generation are still considered as “immigrés” even though they have no longer anything in common with their former countries. As for Mr. Obama’s speech in Cairo, one should read the comments made by Egyptian females there.  They are quite vocal against Obama for having spoken “in favor” of all kinds of head-coverings for Moslem ladies. They claim that they are doing everything they can to get rid of these coverings, and Obama’s remarks are setting them back in the middle ages! Now the comments of Johannes are that of a racist.  Too bad “they do not respect us, we are less than dogs”.  Hum… does Johannes respect them? I wonder!

Okay, this is not about burqas or terrorism prospects. It’s about the French. They had that Revolution thingy?...You know, abolishing religion in favor of rational and thinking and stuff? They do not have a “free, open country” when it comes to the religious. Yes, you CAN wear your silly little crosses, but you have to conceal them so no one else gets offended by your open show of religion. It’s not just in schools. You can’t openly wear ANY religious symbol. When you emigrate to France, they have their own rules on society. You DO have to follow them! Most countries are like that. They will not tolerate “Sharia Law” in their country, and they will not accept the ruling of Sharia courts! No country should! No country should be willing to usurp it’s own laws and rules of behavior to suit emigrants. You are going to someone else’s country and you have to follow their ways. If you don’t like them, move elsewhere. The British allow these minimal Sharia Courts, and they’re incredibly stupid for it. BRITISH law should be the only law on their soil, just as Constitutional law should be the rule of law on American Soil. Live by French law or leave! No one HAS to slide the rules to fit what anyone is used to living by and they shouldn’t. Lots of other people might be moving to your country to get away from their own rotten country’s laws and are willing to accept yours. Those are the people that, if you let them in, you should protect them.

Christ, does anyone know how hard it is to get a work permit in France???? Their country, their rules. It’s that simple. Get rid of the coverings and all religious symbols.

What I wonder is WHY someone would leave their own country because they don’t like the laws or the repression and all, move to someone else’s country and then, oddly enough, demand that government recognize “our ways”. If you’re going to demand that, move a country like the one you just left. Sharia courts have ZERO right to exist in non-Muslim countries.

France’s intolerance of religious icons are REALLY pissing off the christians here in America who regularly “demand” France changes it’s rules to suit THEIR purposes, and frankly, I’m all for that!

He Fpaff you need a slap in the face for this writing, who is paying you for this.

In Europe most of the Moslims are good decent people, who are working with their dogmatic thinking undercover.

Burqa’s are now commen in the streets, as are Moskees, in the U.K. are now 85 centres where the Imam speeks and works with the Sharia rules, so not the commen Englisch law’s.

They are nice in your face, and form an 5 collone in every country, they have to much children, not for love but they are growing fast, and they geth subsidies for every child, its like a big cancer growing fast, I hope we find an nice human medicin,
to stop them and to push them bac.

And as I have found out my self, they do not respect us, we are less than dog’s.