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Symbols Are Not Enough to Win This Battle

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Posted on Jun 23, 2009
AP photo / STR

Iranian riot policemen kick a man as supporters of opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi clashed with authorities on Saturday.

By Robert Fisk

This article was originally published in the Independent.

You don’t overthrow Islamic revolutions with car headlights. And definitely not with candles. Peaceful protest might have served Gandhi well, but the Supreme Leader’s Iran is not going to worry about a few thousand demonstrators on the streets, even if they do cry “Allahu Akbar” from their rooftops every night.

This chorus to God emanated from the rooftops of Kandahar every night after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 – I heard it myself in Kandahar and I heard it last week over the rooftops of Tehran – but it no more stopped the Russians in their tracks than it is going to stop the Basiji or Revolutionary Guards. Symbols are not enough.

Yesterday [Monday], the Revolutionary Guards – as unelected as they are unrepresentative of today’s massed youth of Iran – uttered their disgraceful threat to deal with “rioters” in “a revolutionary way”.

Everyone in Iran, even those too young to remember the 1988 slaughter of the regime’s opponents – when tens of thousands were hanged like thrushes on mass gallows – knows what this means.

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Unleashing a rabble of armed government forces on to the streets and claiming that all whom they shoot are “terrorists” is an almost copy-cat perfect version of the Israeli army’s public reaction to the Palestinian intifada. If stone-throwing demonstrators are shot dead, then it is their own fault, they are breaking the law and they are working for foreign powers.

When this happens in the Israeli-occupied territories, the Israelis claim that the foreign powers of Iran and Syria are behind the violence. When this happens on the streets of Iranian cities, the Iranian regime claims that the foreign powers of the United States, Israel and Britain are behind the violence.

And it is indeed an intifada that has broken out in Iran, however hopeless its aims. Millions of Iranians simply no longer accept the rule of law because they believe that the law has been corrupted by a fraudulent election. The dangerous decision by Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei to throw his entire prestige behind Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has erased any chance that he could emerge above the battle as a neutral arbiter.

Relatives of Mirhossein Mousavi’s powerful ally Ali Akbar Rafsanjani are arrested then released; Mousavi is threatened with arrest by the Speaker of parliament; yet one of the most socially popular clerics and an ally of Mousavi, Mohamed Khatami, remains untouched.

Mousavi may have been a prime minister, but Khatami was a president. To touch Khatami would take away the future protection of Ahmadinejad. And the latter’s powerful political friend Ayatollah Yazdi, who would like to be the next Supreme Leader, is a threat to Khamenei. And while every bloodied body on the streets of Iran’s cities will now be declared a “terrorist’” by Ahmadinejad’s friends, it will be honoured by his enemies as a martyr.

Mousavi, to win, needs to organise his protest in a more coherent way, not make it up on the hoof. But does Khamenei have a longer-term plan than mere survival?


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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, June 25, 2009 at 9:13 am Link to this comment

I don’t think it is a phony story as you do Ed Hargis. For one thing they were first demanded to pay the $3,000 ‘bullet’ fee. [Something I have heard of before.] But they waived it if there was no funeral procession or any acknowledgment of her inhumation. Then soon after there was a story that their house is abandoned and no one knew where they went.

All information out of Iran is problematical. So skepticism, but not debunking is needed at all times.

I wouldn’t be so quick to make it fictional just yet. Certainly not equating it with that propaganda done to incite the first invasion of Iraq in 1990.

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Ed Harges's avatar

By Ed Harges, June 25, 2009 at 9:07 am Link to this comment

Re:By Night-Gaunt, June 25 at 11:11 am:

Yeah, we’ve heard that.

And we also heard that the family that no one can find has somehow been able to tell the Western media that the Iranian government has demanded several thousand dollars to pay for the bullets used to shoot their daughter.

Pardon those of us with memories that go back more then 20 minutes. Does anybody else remember the phony story about the Kuwaiti woman who testified in 1990 that Iraqi soldiers were throwing Kuwaiti babies out of incubators?

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, June 25, 2009 at 8:11 am Link to this comment

As I recall Robert the Iranian woman killed was a bystander, not even involved when a car came by and she was shot by gunmen. Her entire family has since been disappeared. Just more information for you. I do agree, all such depredations on human life are equal and must be reported equally.

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, June 25, 2009 at 8:07 am Link to this comment

Just a note for you Xntrk;
http://www.upsidedownworld.org/ this is the proper way to leave an active link. The “.” after the WWW not “/” which kept it inactive. The site automatically makes it active for you if you set it up right Xntrk.

Just imagine if Iran weighed in on our appointment of 2000? Or the robbery of 2004 in Ohio? How would our right wing press have responded? You know how they would have. The blowhard repubnazis would have just benefited the owners of Iran with their useless blovations. Made it just that much more reactionary and hard line. Just like they like it! Yes they do have hidden agendas. If you know where to look you can find them.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, June 25, 2009 at 7:55 am Link to this comment

Which Life Was More Valuable?

Death on Camera

June 24, 2009 “Jews sans frontieres”—The following video, which probably half the world has seen, captures the death on camera of young Iranian woman killed while non-violently protesting for her rights. CNN broadcasted it. It a “symbol.”


   

The video on the other hand, is of the death on camera of Bassem Abu Rameh, a young Palestinian non-violent protester, near the apartheid wall that cuts into Bil’in. It wasn’t broadcast on CNN. It is not a “symbol.”
   


We even have a picture of the alleged murderer of Bassem, probably posted on Israeli indymedia by eye-witnesses. (on top is the word ‘murderer’ in Hebrew). CNN can probably solve a murder case of a protester and bring the criminal to justice without spending more than a $100 of investigative journalism. Why don’t they do it?

Shame on CNN for caring about the death of non-violent protesters according to the interests of U.S. foreign domination. The love these journalists professes for Neda is just as racist as the their indifference towards Bassem. Indeed, it is the same racism.

Broadcast the death of Bassem!

~~~~~~~~~

Click on link for details/viewing of what our zionist/AIPAC controlled racist news media’s select coverage. Almost always…shielding Israel’s murderers, the IDF:

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22909.htm

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Ed Harges's avatar

By Ed Harges, June 25, 2009 at 6:26 am Link to this comment

Re: By thebeerdoctor, June 25 at 7:38 am:

Beerdoctor, I haven’t any doubt that the repression took place, with or without the additional observations by Mr. Fisk.

My concern was more broadly about the selective coverage and sentimental fervor shown in our media regarding certain outrages against liberal values, as opposed to others, reflecting the obvious power of a decidedly illiberal political constituency which seeks to whip up public sentiment in the US for a military confrontation with Iran.

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thebeerdoctor's avatar

By thebeerdoctor, June 25, 2009 at 4:38 am Link to this comment

If you read the Al Jazeera link carefully, there is additional observations by Robert Fisk, who was, unlike observers on Truthdig, actually there, on the ground,  where a major demonstration took place.

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By ardee, June 25, 2009 at 3:14 am Link to this comment

Ed Harges, June 24 at 4:09 pm #

Virginia777 writes to ardee:

...no honest and well meaning “Folk” (awwh, country people) would call Obama a “Fascist” as you have.

Exactly right, Virginia. Ardee perfectly illustrates the old “sensible leftist” consensus. A “sensible leftist” American can use the most demonizing language in describing wrongs committed by the US, but only an anti-Semite would ever attribute similar crimes to Israel or use similar language when speaking of those crimes
..................................

You are an outright liar Harges, and a clumsy one at that. I challenge you to find one single post of mine defending Israel, just one .  Cut and paste it or shut the F*&k up.

Propagandists do a better job, a more subtle and less easily disproved line. You are certainly not that, only a sad and rather immature appearing clown in fact, so wrapped up in your own ego that you have lost sight of the goal of political discourse.

Keep hanging with the broom riding Virginia, neither of you contribute squat.

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Virginia777's avatar

By Virginia777, June 24, 2009 at 10:00 pm Link to this comment

What are you talking about, Folktruther,

isn’t determining our own Destiny exactly what we believe in?

instead of allowing the Media to lead us by the nose?

well, if Trolls are “Media” (they are!)

then why not put a little self-control into this situation??

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By Folktruther, June 24, 2009 at 9:13 pm Link to this comment

Vergina it’s never a good idea to turn people into authority.  In every progressive organ the US police and intelligence agencies have informers, agents and provocateurs. That is part of American Freedom&Democracy;, and what makes it such a fraud.  there are ways of dealing with them and working around them.  I have no doubt Aipac or some Zionst agency has trolls in these comment sections.  Irritating as he may be, I doubt if Inherit is one of them.

It’s true that, despite his Zionist vulgarity, I get a kick out of Inherit, not least because he thinks Ayn Rand is a serious thinker. I have a lot of experience with agents and if Inherit is one, he is unique.  And it is also true what he says, that in these kinds of discourses, what you need are not good friends, but good enemies.  You have to have someone to challenge your assumptions vigorously to develop better ones.

And I also confess that I have my own bone to knaw.  Inherit has been weaned not only the the delusive American truth tradition, but the corrupt cynicism of the Zionist tradition.  In certain ways he thinks like the most backward American people.  I want to know how they think. He will argue absurd positions vigorously so I can see the underlying presuppositions and why Americans would think that way.  And occasionally he actually comes up with a good idea, proabably just by chance.

Its true that he is throwing sand in our sandpile.  Oh, well.

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Virginia777's avatar

By Virginia777, June 24, 2009 at 8:40 pm Link to this comment

“Symbols are NOT enough to win this battle”

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Virginia777's avatar

By Virginia777, June 24, 2009 at 8:40 pm Link to this comment

to Ed Harges:

“Civil Liberties” do not stand for being harassed by Trolls day and night,

harassed on the ONE site, where we can look for the Truth

(I am a 100% believer in the Good of Robert Scheer)

Why should we have to put up with these Zionist Trolls every night? (even though you are a master of the retort)

why??

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Virginia777's avatar

By Virginia777, June 24, 2009 at 8:38 pm Link to this comment

to Xntrk:

you got that Right!!

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By Xntrk, June 24, 2009 at 8:19 pm Link to this comment

In my earlier post about the lack of truth and objectivity in reporting by our media. I mentioned the murder of a reporter in Oaxaca ‘a couple of years ago’. There is an article on www/upsidedownworld.org about a new book that is out, that gives more specifics. The reporter was Brad Will, from NYC, and he was killed in 2006. The book, edited by Diana Denham and the CASA Collective, is Teaching Rebellion available at PM Press.

If you don’t monitor Up Side Down World, I’d recommend it. It has published reports from all the Latin American countries, concerning their economy, politics, and social problems. The one I just read was a very disturbing article about Haitians in the Dominican Republic, including a report of a beheading of a Haitian by a DM mob. Did anyone see anything about that in our media? You know, maybe squeezed in between the latest on Brad Pitt or Madonna…

Off the topic for Iran, but not really. This is just another glaring example of the lack of in depth information available to the US public if they depend on TV and newspapers. Perhaps Fisk should add a post script to title of this article: Symbols Aren’t Enough… [Unless they count on the US Media to handle it for them]

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By Inherit The Wind, June 24, 2009 at 7:36 pm Link to this comment

And you wouldn’t have nearly as much fun if I wasn’t there to kick your butt from time to time!

I got a confession to make—it’s no fun discussing shit with people who pretty much agree with you! smile

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By Alejandro, June 24, 2009 at 6:31 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I’m sadened to say that what is happening in Iran should have happened here in 2000. Most fair-minded Americans know that the 2000 election was stolen by Bush and his cronies, but the timid Dems., coward when they should have taken to the street as the Iranians have. I firmly believe that we have no business talking to anybody about Democracy until justice is served upon Bush, Cheney, and the rest of the reprobates that have shamed our Country…

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Ed Harges's avatar

By Ed Harges, June 24, 2009 at 6:26 pm Link to this comment

Re: By Inherit The Wind, June 24 at 9:11 pm:

Just for the record: I have NEVER clicked on “report this”, nor would I ever. I am a staunch civil liberties stickler.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 24, 2009 at 6:11 pm Link to this comment

Virginia777, June 24 at 3:01 pm #

re: Inherit the Wind

does anyone ever ask themselves:

“why do we have to live with this tiresome troll ITW?”

how about we stage a “report this”-in,

and give ITW a vacation??
***********************************

Go ahead.  It is the inner fascist in you that wants to be able to drop toads and snotty comments on others and never have to actually face the music for it.  You never have sound arguments and HATE being held up to the contempt of the thinking posters.

So go ahead. Press report. See if they banish me for defending 3 of their best contributors.  Get EH to do it to, but I actually don’t think he will (not that it really matters).

Good luck with that.  Until then, if you don’t like my posts, tough shit.  You have the right (still) to behave, on-line,  like the asshole you are .

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Ed Harges's avatar

By Ed Harges, June 24, 2009 at 3:18 pm Link to this comment

re:By thebeerdoctor, June 24 at 5:58 pm

Oh please, we can do this all day, beerdoctor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqAVvlyVbag

Nobody with any brains is denying, beerdoctor, the outrage aginst civil liberties in Iran. But we are seeing selective saturation coverage, by our corporate Zionist US media, of these particular outrages, because there is an agenda afoot in American politics, and it’s the Israel-centric agenda of drumming up fervor for a crusade against Iran.

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Russian Paul's avatar

By Russian Paul, June 24, 2009 at 3:02 pm Link to this comment

The poster “Tman” is a good example of a phony-anti-zionist typing hate speech to give authentic-anti-zionists the appearance of being violent and hate-mongering. This makes it easier to censor and block their opinions, I’ve seen this on several blogs now. I hope no one is falling for it.

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By KDelphi, June 24, 2009 at 1:58 pm Link to this comment

tropicgirl—True! There is even a piece in MoJo about whether Michelle can “save Obama’
s health care plan”. Back when Obama first started running, I posted a link to a Chicago Sun Times article, linking Michelle to cutting care for the poor at Univ of Chicago hospitals, and, making over $350,000 a year on the board.

She only recently resigned.

I was castigaterd for even mentioning it!

They have a video link from Hardball, but, that guy makes my blood pressure go up too fast, so I didnt watch it.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2009/06/corn-hardball-michelle-obama-helping-health-care-reform#comment-176569

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tropicgirl's avatar

By tropicgirl, June 24, 2009 at 1:21 pm Link to this comment

“.....Yeah, Fisk drank the kool-aid. So did Pfaff. So did Hedges.  So did Mr. Fish.  So did Ban Ki Moon.  Lucky we got you and the rest of “The Contingent” to tell us “The Truth”... “

ITW, Perhaps you didn’t catch a major topic of mainstream news: “The lack of objectivity when it comes to Obama, especially the left, fancy that, and the fact that it is coming to an end real soon”. So it wouldn’t be that off-base to suggest it happens, albeit to the best of them, especially in the Washington environment. And we know the “washington environment” is, essentially, the Zionist lobby.

By the way, I don’t see much on Michelle Obama’s scheme to dump poor patients in Chicago. I just see her presented as the “rescuer” of the health care reform scheme all over the news today. Case closed?

Hint: don’t follow “people”. Try to get at the truth however painful.

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Ed Harges's avatar

By Ed Harges, June 24, 2009 at 1:09 pm Link to this comment

Virginia777 writes to ardee:

...no honest and well meaning “Folk” (awwh, country people) would call Obama a “Fascist” as you have.

Exactly right, Virginia. Ardee perfectly illustrates the old “sensible leftist” consensus. A “sensible leftist” American can use the most demonizing language in describing wrongs committed by the US, but only an anti-Semite would ever attribute similar crimes to Israel or use similar language when speaking of those crimes. Even where Israel is acknowledged to have done any wrong, it must always be expressed as an understandable if regrettable lapse. US evils can be understood as emanating from the inmost nefarious greedy cruel nature of the US, part of its essential being. But Israel only makes “mistakes” — and often those are the US’s fault, anyway. Thus, even though Ardee’s outright labeling of Obama as a “fascist” is laughably over the top, Ardee retains the halo of “seriousness” — and you and I are the crazy “contingent”.

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By ardee, June 24, 2009 at 12:45 pm Link to this comment

Virginia777, June 24 at 3:03 pm #


and to Ardee:

“The problem , I believe, is that there are also some who make a career of forum hopping, spreading lies and distortions, discrediting the opinions of honest and well meaning folks in order to achieve continued chaos”

you have just described yourself! and your role as a troll here.

because no honest and well meaning “Folk” (awwh, country people),

would call Obama a “Fascist” as you have.
........................................................
So, tell me Virginia, is it your goal here to provide comic relief? So far I see little else forthcoming from you. In your blind partisanship you neglect to understand that opinions are what we express here, yours are not written in gold leaf any more than are anyone elses.

My opinions of our President are exactly that, mine, as yours, if you ever express any in a coherent and logical fashion, would belong to you. I try , with every assertion, to explain my reasoning. You are simply unreasonable.

Now be a good girl and fly away on your broomstick….

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, June 24, 2009 at 12:42 pm Link to this comment

This whole stolen election is among similar people and yes it does appear to have been taken. The Iranian people are pissed at it. It wouldn’t do us much good either way from what I see so complaining like the Republicans want is just posturing without substance. From a country that occupies another illegally right now. Remember Iraq? over 1.5 million more dead because of the USA since 2006?

I see no evidence that Fisk is aiding the propaganda machines of the USA and Israel. I consider that a form of propaganda to cast aspersions on the few who aren’t co-opted by those who are who want to ruin them as a legitimate source.

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By Howard, June 24, 2009 at 12:34 pm Link to this comment

3 cheers for ‘ITW’ , aka Inherit the Wind.
  Only one of the more rational, common sense writings on this long page of postings that I can find. !!!!

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Ed Harges's avatar

By Ed Harges, June 24, 2009 at 12:20 pm Link to this comment

ITW asks:

“if Mousavvi is hated by Israel why would they be fomenting this? “

That’s easy, Inherit the Wind. And we’ve already explained that to you.

Israel wants the US to bomb Iran, and doesn’t want Obama to talk to Iran without preconditions, as he promised (but sort of backtracked on) during his campaign. Israel fears that Obama will be “soft” on Iran. Anything that serves to delegitimize the Iranian government is useful in turning US public opinion against the idea of talking to Iranian leaders, and in making Americans more receptive to taking military action.  So you see, it doesn’t matter whether the Israelis actually think Mousavi was the better candidate. In fact, the best scenario for Israel (short of the actual disintegration of the Iranian government, to be replaced by a return of the Shah as a US-Israeli puppet dictator) is that Ahmadinejad stays in office, but Americans widely he believe that he stole the election, and that Mousavi was a brave champion of enlightenment cruelly denied the chance to lead Iran to modernity.

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Virginia777's avatar

By Virginia777, June 24, 2009 at 12:03 pm Link to this comment

and to Ardee:

“The problem , I believe, is that there are also some who make a career of forum hopping, spreading lies and distortions, discrediting the opinions of honest and well meaning folks in order to achieve continued chaos”

you have just described yourself! and your role as a troll here.

because no honest and well meaning “Folk” (awwh, country people),

would call Obama a “Fascist” as you have.

Report this

By Folktruther, June 24, 2009 at 12:01 pm Link to this comment

Britain has joined the US in this “Stolen Election” campaign against Iran, which is probably why Fisk has descended into the truth gutter to support this disnformation campaign.  Dihey, who is of Dutch orgins, has stated that Britain and the Netherlands were involved in putting the Shah on the Irani throne in 1953. Due to Shell oil I suppose. His son, His Royal Majesty Revi SHah 11, as his Friends call him, is now in Maryland financed by the US.

Gordon Brown, the British Prime Minister, is apparently going to be the same kind of lap poodle to Obaman that Blair was to Bush.  And this time in Iran rather than Iraq.

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Virginia777's avatar

By Virginia777, June 24, 2009 at 12:01 pm Link to this comment

re: Inherit the Wind

does anyone ever ask themselves:

“why do we have to live with this tiresome troll ITW?”

how about we stage a “report this”-in,

and give ITW a vacation??

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, June 24, 2009 at 11:49 am Link to this comment

tropicgirl, June 24 at 1:41 pm #

Fisk apparently has succumbed to the clueless or CIA goon-talk, not sure which.

Listen all idiots who think you know what is going on in Iran, you don’t. It is not exactly clear why people are protesting, except for possible election fraud. The protests are being co-opted by everyone from Israel to the GOP, AND ALL THE SABER-RATTLERS IN CONGRESS ARE JUST ECHOING THE DESIRE OF ISRAEL, TO STIR UP TROUBLE WITHIN IRAN, TO THEIR ADVANTAGE, REGARDLESS OF WHO WINS, THEY WANT TO BOMB THEM ALL ANYWAY. Simply put, its called DESTABILIZATION. And yes, of course the CIA, MI5, and all interested clandestine goons ARE involved. If you were paying attention last year the CIA ANNOUNCED, many times, that they were stepping up their efforts inside Iran. So what the hell do you think that means? Tupperware parties?

BUT HERE is some information about Mr. Mousavi…

“Three decades ago Mir-Hossein Mousavi was waging a terrorist war on the United States that included bloody attacks on the U.S. embassy and Marine Corps barracks in Beirut. Mousavi, prime minister for most of the 1980s, personally selected his point man for the Beirut terror campaign, Ali Akbar Mohtashemi-pur, and dispatched him to Damascus as Iran’s ambassador, according to former CIA and military officials. The ambassador in turn hosted several meetings of the cell that would carry out the Beirut attacks, which were overheard by the National Security Agency.”

Still think Israel doesn’t know this man also hates them, perhaps worse? Really? I don’t recall A-jad helping to bomb an American embassy.

And if you think you know what you are talking about, remember “anyone but Bush…?” Look where that got us. Bushlaw became validated and entrenched in our government, blessed by Obama. Y’all need to grow up. You (the writers and bloggers here) know better than to get on this bandwagon. Way better.
************************************

Yeah, Fisk drank the kool-aid. So did Pfaff. So did Hedges.  So did Mr. Fish.  So did Ban Ki Moon.  Lucky we got you and the rest of “The Contingent” to tell us “The Truth”.

oh….and if Mousavvi is hated by Israel why would they be fomenting this? 

Yet another “TC” inconsistency.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 24, 2009 at 11:41 am Link to this comment

tman, June 24 at 6:27 am #

The U.S. government is completely corrupt from the top down. It is controlled by the military industrial complex and the Israel lobby. Our politicians are bought and paid for by the above before they even enter Washington, D.C. These people are flat out traitors and should be dealt with accordingly. The Zionist Jews are nothing less than Neo-Nazis and should be destroyed down to the last one. They are in my opinion the most despicable individuals the planet earth has ever hosted.
*****************************************

Didn’t one of your pals shoot up the Holocaust Museum in DC a few weeks ago?

That asshole had pretty much the same views as you do.  In fact, I can’t detect ANY difference other than he wanted to kill ALL Jews and you want to kill “zionists”—which is “code” for pretty much all Jews, too.

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By tman, June 24, 2009 at 10:48 am Link to this comment

Jason I’ll answer your stupid comment. To begin with I was referring to Zionist Jews if you happened to notice. Zionism is a political party not a form of Judaism. Judaism is a religion not A race of people. Jews come in all flavors and colors. Nazism was a political party not a race of German people. If you were old enough to remember WW 11 you would recall the cry for the death of all Nazis not the entire German race. If I was a racist I’m sure my Jewish friends (followers of Judaism) and my relatives would ostracize me and have nothing to do with me or my family. To understand Judaism and find out the many sects of the Jewish religion I suggest you go to Neuterel Karta.com and the rabbis there will furnish free of charge everything you could want to know about the Jewish religion and it’s history. I also suggest you read a book called Gruesome Harvest which is available at Amazon.com. This book will explain some of the atrocities committed by all sides and after WW11. You only show how misinformed you are about past and contemporary history. Tman

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tropicgirl's avatar

By tropicgirl, June 24, 2009 at 10:41 am Link to this comment

Fisk apparently has succumbed to the clueless or CIA goon-talk, not sure which.

Listen all idiots who think you know what is going on in Iran, you don’t. It is not exactly clear why people are protesting, except for possible election fraud. The protests are being co-opted by everyone from Israel to the GOP, AND ALL THE SABER-RATTLERS IN CONGRESS ARE JUST ECHOING THE DESIRE OF ISRAEL, TO STIR UP TROUBLE WITHIN IRAN, TO THEIR ADVANTAGE, REGARDLESS OF WHO WINS, THEY WANT TO BOMB THEM ALL ANYWAY. Simply put, its called DESTABILIZATION. And yes, of course the CIA, MI5, and all interested clandestine goons ARE involved. If you were paying attention last year the CIA ANNOUNCED, many times, that they were stepping up their efforts inside Iran. So what the hell do you think that means? Tupperware parties?

BUT HERE is some information about Mr. Mousavi…

“Three decades ago Mir-Hossein Mousavi was waging a terrorist war on the United States that included bloody attacks on the U.S. embassy and Marine Corps barracks in Beirut. Mousavi, prime minister for most of the 1980s, personally selected his point man for the Beirut terror campaign, Ali Akbar Mohtashemi-pur, and dispatched him to Damascus as Iran’s ambassador, according to former CIA and military officials. The ambassador in turn hosted several meetings of the cell that would carry out the Beirut attacks, which were overheard by the National Security Agency.”

Still think Israel doesn’t know this man also hates them, perhaps worse? Really? I don’t recall A-jad helping to bomb an American embassy.

And if you think you know what you are talking about, remember “anyone but Bush…?” Look where that got us. Bushlaw became validated and entrenched in our government, blessed by Obama. Y’all need to grow up. You (the writers and bloggers here) know better than to get on this bandwagon. Way better.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, June 24, 2009 at 10:26 am Link to this comment

Michael Scheuer: “Obama Managed To Keep His Big Mouth Shut While Israelis Killed 1500 People In Gaza!”

3 Minute Video

June 22, 2009


  http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22899.htm

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By allan siegel, June 24, 2009 at 9:01 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Robert Fisk’s political judgments and awareness has shifted into some bizarre territory. The political turmoil in Iran is not in the same category as the Palestinian resistance. To write these columns on Iran is to dismiss and ignore its history and current political realities of the Middle East. Shameful rubbish that sounds more like Krauthammer than the Fisk that used to be ahead of the wave rather than swimming in the mainstream muck

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, June 24, 2009 at 8:57 am Link to this comment

“These people are flat out traitors and should be dealt with accordingly. The Zionist Jews are nothing less than German Nazis and should be destroyed down to the last one. They are in my opinion the most despicable individuals the planet earth has ever hosted.”Tman

Maybe they are “the most despicable” but violence begets violence but it sounds too much like. We only use it in self defense and without passion. To stop them, to capture and put them on trial and if found guilty to work hard labor for the rest of their lives. We don’t want to become them as the Zionists have re the treatment by the Nazis distorted them to this sad state.

Mr. Fisk isn’t advocating violence as much as just stating a fact in this case. Then it would leave being and intifada and become a civil war. Now if the military sides with Mirhossein Mousavi then a regime change can happen. Not that this would be much of a change for Iran other than taking it out of the mullah’s hands and directly into the military. I don’t see it happening.

Remember how contemptible Bush/Cheney were of the hundreds of thousands protesting the then coming war with Iraq? Any change here?

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, June 24, 2009 at 7:30 am Link to this comment

RE:  PSmith’s GUNS? NAH. NEOCONS - (CORK)SCREW ‘EM

It’d be nice to believe that the outcome of the 2008 election was in some way a rebuke of the powers that be, but any rational person knows that’s not the case.  Obama made it to the White House because he was not perceived as a serious threat to the status quo. 

Sure, guns didn’t change anything in 2000 or 2004, but then again, I was referring to the use of guns to counter a violent crackdown by this government.  That hasn’t happened yet and is unlikely to ever happen because America has such a well-armed civilian population. 

So, they’ll continue to use the proven strategies of misdirection, xenophobia, and wedge issues to keep our eyes firmly fixed on that which is not the prize.  However, make no mistake.  The day we give up our arms is the day the violent crackdown begins.  And further make no mistake that it will indeed take blood to bring about any meaningful change in this country.  The so-called power of the people is paper tiger unless we have the teeth to back it up.

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By Jason!!, June 24, 2009 at 6:37 am Link to this comment

Re: By tman, June 24 at 6:27 am

Thank you for sharing your racist bile. Why hide behind anonymity?

I think you read too many Nazi science fiction novels. You might want to leave your bunker and guns once in a while and have a conversation with one of the worlds smallest minorities. I think you will find the jews to be far more humble and compassionate than your leaders allow you to think.

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By ardee, June 24, 2009 at 3:57 am Link to this comment

Sepharad, June 23 at 11:50 pm

A fine comment and one that all should take to heart. We are a divided nation, so polarized its would seem that any disagreement results in invective and diatribe. This may very well be a result of some grand scheme to keep us so in order to make the theft of our treasury and the decay of our democracy inevitable. Too paranoid?

There are posters who, it would seem, read someones effort, not in order to understand, but to find key words or push button phrases that get the adrenaline flowing and the responses acidic. This is no way to make progress or even reach a middle ground.

The problem , I believe, is that there are also some who make a career of forum hopping, spreading lies and distortions, discrediting the opinions of honest and well meaning folks in order to achieve continued chaos. If one gives a bit of thought to the subject some names immediately come to mind I’m certain….

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By Jaded Prole, June 24, 2009 at 3:46 am Link to this comment

If this turns into another Tianamin Square it will be once again with the help of an overzealous west’s misinterpretation. Iranian protesters are not seeking to overthrow the Islamic Republic. They are seeking a fair election within it. If they go beyond that it may be that they are driven their by the Ayatollahs themselves. That they are seen by their government as revolutionary or traitors linked to the West doesn’t help their cause. The Iranian regime has good reasons to suspect outside interference, it is best if we do not encourage that.

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By Howard, June 24, 2009 at 3:38 am Link to this comment

Nonsense , Tman;  its the christians in control.  The ones in the next town from me.  They’ve been overheard plotting.  Some catholics. even some Baptists involved.

they are the whole problem.  Descpicable is rite.  They are the ones who are neo nazis. the pox on them !

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By tman, June 24, 2009 at 3:27 am Link to this comment

The U.S. government is completely corrupt from the top down. It is controlled by the military industrial complex and the Israel lobby. Our politicians are bought and paid for by the above before they even enter Washington, D.C. These people are flat out traitors and should be dealt with accordingly. The Zionist Jews are nothing less than Neo-Nazis and should be destroyed down to the last one. They are in my opinion the most despicable individuals the planet earth has ever hosted.

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By Sepharad, June 23, 2009 at 8:50 pm Link to this comment

Virginia777, I’d give you a break if you made any sense. But you don’t. Why would I like or approve of or wish for future wars involving Israel? I’m with Peace Now and their political party MeretzUSA. At home here, my work’s been in civil rights, freedom of information, ACLU, history. My kids both are humanists, one teaching grad students interested in healing international traumas, from the old King Leopold’s Congo to the Holocaust to violence against women and in the Middle East. No society is without blame: all you can do is work to change it—not issue dumb juvenile attacks on individuals. I sometimes disagree (and sometimes agree)with TDers whom I respect, and enjoy their give and take, and learn from—Shingo, Sodium, KDelphi, Cyrena, ardee, jackpine, NightGaunt, Leefeller, Anarcissie e.g. You are something else, and Inherit the Wind’s disdain expressed on a different thread (I think) is right on target. How do you survive in real life?
Boo at the mailman when he brings a message you don’t like?

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By Robert, June 23, 2009 at 8:49 pm Link to this comment

BBC Caught In Mass Public Deception With Iran Propaganda

Postby joeblowman » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:40 pm
BBC Caught In Mass Public Deception With Iran Propaganda

http://www.infowars.com/bbc-caught-in-m ... ropaganda/

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet.com
Thursday, June 18, 2009


“The BBC has again been caught engaging in mass public deception by using photographs of pro-Ahmadinejad rallies in Iran and claiming they represent anti-government protests in favor of Hossein Mousavi.

An image used by the L.A. Times on the front page of its website Tuesday showed Iranian President Ahmadinejad waving to a crowd of supporters at a public event.

In a story covering the election protests yesterday, the BBC News website used a closer shot of the same scene, but with Ahmadinejad cut out of the frame. The caption under the photograph read, ‘Supporters of Mir Hossein Mousavi again defied a ban on protests’.

The BBC photograph is clearly a similar shot of the same pro-Ahmadinejad rally featured in the L.A. Times image, yet the caption erroneously claims it represents anti-Ahmadinejad protesters.


“Well I guess it sure was a popular fictional rally for Mousavi, because I later noticed while browsing the news sites a familiar picture on the BBC’s lead Iran story - it shows the same crowd, zoomed in to cut out Ahmadinejad,” a reader told the WhatReallyHappened website. “It is clearly the same protest as in the background are the same tree and odd circular building. However, the BBC managed to outdo the LA times in quality reporting - their actual comment under the photo from the huge PRO-Ahmadinejad rally reads ‘Supporters of Mir Hossein Mousavi again defied a ban on protests’ - a blatant lie and deliberately misleading description of what is actually occurring in Iran!”

As soon as the truth about the misrepresented images surfaced on the WhatReallyHappened website yesterday, the BBC changed the photo caption on their original article.

This is not the first time the BBC has been caught red-handed using crude image and video framing techniques for the purposes of political propaganda.

During the fall of Baghdad in April 2003, the BBC and other mainstream news outlets broadcast closely framed footage of the “mass uprising” during which Iraqis, aided by U.S. troops, toppled the Saddam Hussein statue in Fardus Square.

The closely framed footage was used to imply that hundreds or thousands of Iraqis were involved in a Berlin Wall-style “historic” liberation, yet when wide angle shots were later published on the Internet, footage that was never broadcast on live television, the reality of the “mass uprising” became clear. The crowd around the statue was sparse and consisted mostly of U.S. troops and journalists. The BBC later had to admit that only “dozens” of Iraqis had participated in toppling the statue. The entire scene was a manufactured farce yet the propaganda technique of blocking wide-angle shots from being broadcast convinced the world that the event represented a triumphant and historic mass popular uprising on behalf of the Iraqi people.

Whatever your views on the legitimacy of Ahmadinejad and the accuracy of the Iranian election results, the fact that the Anglo-American establishment and its media organs are exploiting and fanning the flames of chaos in Iran to provoke further instability is unquestionable.

Indeed, the U.S. State Department, which routinely demonizes the Internet as a tool of extremists and terrorists when it is used to criticize U.S. foreign policy, took the unprecedented step today of requesting that Twitter.com “delay planned maintenance work so that Iranian protesters can continue to use it to post images and reports of unrest,” according to a London Times report.”

http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6022#p23486

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By nefesh, June 23, 2009 at 7:57 pm Link to this comment

folktruther -

WHAT IS A ‘NEOLIBCON’

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By Folktruther, June 23, 2009 at 6:47 pm Link to this comment

Good link, Jackpine, a huge amount of information on regime change and US backing of terrorist groups in Iran.  But it doesn’t include Peter Acherman’s Freedom House related group training demonstrators in Dubai.

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By Robert, June 23, 2009 at 6:44 pm Link to this comment

Seeing Through All the Propaganda About Iran

By Eric Margolis

June 23, 2009 “Lew Rockwell”—“WASHINGTON – Iran’s political crisis continues to blaze. It’s still impossible to say which leaders or factions will emerge victorious, but one thing is certain: the earthquake in the Islamic Republic is shaking the Mideast and deeply confusing everyone, including the US government.

Highlighting the complexity of this crisis, Meir Dagan, the head of Israel’s intelligence agency, Mossad, reportedly voiced his hope that Iran’s embattled president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, would remain in office. On the surface, that sounds absurd, since Ahmadinejad is Israel’s Great Satan.

But, according to Dagan, if Ahmadinejad’s supposedly “moderate” rival, Mir Hossein Mousavi, came to power, it would be harder for Israel to keep up its propaganda war against Iran over Tehran’s nuclear program.

Besides, added the Mossad chief, the devil you know is better.

Meanwhile, we have been watching an intensifying western propaganda campaign against Iran, mounted by the US and British governments. What we hear is commentary and analysis that comes from bitterly anti-regime Iranian exiles, “experts” with an ax to grind, and US pro-Israel neocons yearning for war with Iran.

In viewing the Muslim world, Westerners keep listening to those who tell them what they want to hear, rather than the facts. We are at it again in Iran.

President Barack Obama’s properly stated he would refrain from being seen to “meddle” in Iran’s internal affairs in spite of calls by hard-line Republicans for American action – whatever that might be. Obama did the right thing by apologizing for the US/British coup that overthrew Iran’s democratic Mossadegh government in 1953.

But that was not the whole story. Washington has been attempting to overthrow Iran’s Islamic government since the 1979 revolution and continues to do so in spite of pledges of neutrality in the current crisis.

The US has laid economic siege to Iran for 30 years, blocking desperately needed foreign investment, preventing technology transfers, and disrupting Iranian trade. In recent years, the US Congress voted $120 million for anti-regime media broadcasts into Iran, and $60-75 million funding opposition parties, violent underground Marxists like the Mujahidin-i-Khalq, and restive ethnic groups like Azeris, Kurds, and Arabs under the so-called “Iran Democracy Program.”

The arm of Iran’s Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, remains withered from a bomb planted by the US-backed Mujahidin-i-Khalq, who were once on the US terrorist list.

Pakistani intelligence sources put CIA’s recent spending on “black operations” to subvert Iran’s government at $400 million.

According to an ABC News investigation, President George Bush signed a “finding” that authorized an accelerated campaign of subversion against the Islamic Republic. Washington’s goal was “regime change” in Tehran and installation of a pro-US regime of former Iranian royalist exiles.

While the majority of protests we see in Tehran are genuine and spontaneous, Western intelligence agencies and media are playing a key role in sustaining the uprising and providing communications, including the newest electronic method, via Twitter. These are covert techniques developed by the US during recent revolutions in Ukraine and Georgia that brought pro-US governments to power.

The Tehran government made things worse by limiting foreign news reports and arresting prominent politicians. Its leadership is increasingly – and dangerously – split over how to handle the protests.”


http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22898.htm

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By Inherit The Wind, June 23, 2009 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment

Oops—It’s Henry Drummond, not E.K. Hornbeck:

“You murder a wife, it isn’t nearly as bad as murdering an old wives’ tale. Kill one of their fairy-tale notions and they bring down the wrath God, Brady, and the state legislature.”

Or, in this case, “The Contingent”.

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By Jean Gerard, June 23, 2009 at 5:52 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The mullahs are saying that the protests in Iran are due to the U.S. etc. etc.
If the U.S. supports the protests, they will be corroborating the mullas’ allegations.  Why would any knowledgeable person want to corroborate the mullas’ allegations?

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By Inherit The Wind, June 23, 2009 at 5:49 pm Link to this comment

Virginia777, June 23 at 1:27 pm #

and to Robert Fisk,

you have earned my permanent distrust.

(check out Ardee’s comment if you don’t understand why)
**********************************

You and the rest of “The Contingent”.

Here is Fisk’s and Hedge’s sin:

“You murder a wife, it isn’t nearly as bad as murdering an old wives’ tale.”  E.K. Hornbeck, from Inherit The Wind-Act I, Sc. 2

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By Xntrk, June 23, 2009 at 5:22 pm Link to this comment

I am not an expert on Middle Eastern politics, and any view I express are solely my own opinion. With that disclaimer, I too shall wade in to the fray.

I am suspicious of any reporter who works for the western media and has been in place for decades. No matter how polished their writing, there is no way their views have not been endorsed by our government, the military, and the CIA. An example would be what happened to the Indy reporter murdered in cold blood by Mexican government militiamen in Oaxaca a couple of years ago. Our press, government, and other spokespeople have either ignored or helped the erasure of that event from our memories. So, opinion number one is I distrust most of the media if they survive five years as foreign correspondents.

As for believing our media reports on events in Iran, I’d imagine they are as accurate as the reports we got last summer of Russia invading Georgia. I also have difficulty with our media reporting terrible governmental censorship in countries where most people have a cell phone and internet connections. BTW, you could include Cuba in that group. Despite the stories we get, most Cubans can easily access the internet, and have IT accounts. They also have cell phone and use IM to comunicate with relatives elsewhere. Do you ever wonder how all these bloggers smuggle out their messages from these repressive countries?

Obviously, China, North Korea, and other heavy-fisted countries keep their citizens from twittering like sparrows at the drop af a vote…

So, I hope the Iranians manage to establish a government without terrible violence and repression. I also hope we stay out of the whole thing, and encourage NATO and the UN to do the same. Fighting in three mid-eastern counties is already bankrupting our county. We are destroying generations and uncounted millions in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. We are also brutalizing a generation here at home and ruining those families as well.

God must be heartily tired of all this crap we keep blaming on him. He/She/It has to keep translating all these different languages, and sorting thru the dead to make sure they go to the proper hell or heaven, and then put up with the lamentations, hosannas, prayers, and platitudes, offered up on every holy day and at every official event.

Is it any wonder Mother Nature is about to pull the plug on the whole shebang?

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By KDelphi, June 23, 2009 at 5:10 pm Link to this comment

jackpine savage—excellent link, and, here is some of it to whet your appetite, peeps.

“... Well prior, in 2005, Ritter wrote that the Bush administration had authorized a number of covert operations inside Iran. “The most visible of these”, he wrote, “is the CIA-backed actions recently undertaken by the Mujahideen-e-Khalq, or MEK…The MEK’s CIA-backed operations within Iran included “terror bombings”, Ritter charged.[22]

A State Department cable unclassified in March, 2006 and entitled “Recruiting the Next Generation of Iran Experts” began by asserting that “Effectively addressing the Iran challenge ranks as one of the highest foreign policy priorities for our Government over the next decade.” The document outlines a plan developed under then Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to “promote freedom and demoncracy [sic] in Iran.”

To this end, the State Department created the Office of Iranian Affairs (OIA) under the Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs, which would “reach out to the Iranian people” and bring more Iran experts into the Foreign Service and more Persian-speaking officers into the OIA, the Intelligence and Research Bureau (INR), and other branches of the State Department. Part of the “outreach” effort would be based in Dubai, a “natural location” for a regional office due to its “proximity to Iran and access to an Iranian diaspora”.

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By KDelphi, June 23, 2009 at 5:03 pm Link to this comment

brewerstroupe—Excellent post!

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By jackpine savage, June 23, 2009 at 4:15 pm Link to this comment

Some of you might like to read this:

http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2009/06/23/has-the-u-s-played-a-role-in-fomenting-unrest-during-irans-election/

It’s not short, but it puts the pieces (footnoted) together and gives a lot to think over.

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By Folktruther, June 23, 2009 at 4:13 pm Link to this comment

Damn right, Brewerstroupe.  We need more scholars like you.

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By brewerstroupe, June 23, 2009 at 3:02 pm Link to this comment

This bears repeating.

The Poll:

....there was only one poll carried out by a western news organization. It was jointly commissioned by the BBC and ABC News, and conducted by an independent entity called the Center for Public Opinion (CPO) of the New America Foundation. The CPO has a reputation of conducting accurate opinion polls, not only in Iran, but across the Muslim world since 2005. The poll, conducted a few weeks before the elections, predicted an 89 percent turnout rate. Further, it showed that Ahmadinejad had a nationwide advantage of two to one over Mousavi.

How did this survey compare to the actual results? And what are the possibilities of wide scale election fraud?

According to official results, there were 46.2 million registered voters in Iran. The turnout was massive, as predicted by the CPO. Almost 39.2 million Iranians participated in the elections for a turn out rate of 85 percent, in which about 38.8 million ballots were deemed valid (about 400,000 ballots were left blank). Officially, President Ahmadinejad received 24.5 million votes to Mousavi’s 13.2 million votes, or 62.6 per cent to 33.8 per cent of the total votes, respectively. In fact, this result mirrored the 2005 elections when Ahmadinejad received 61.7 per cent to former President Hashemi Rafsanjani’s 35.9 per cent in the runoff elections.

The vote count:

There were a total of 45,713 ballot boxes that were set up in cities, towns and villages across Iran. With 39.2 million ballots cast, there were less than 860 ballots per box. Unlike other countries where voters can cast their ballots on several candidates and issues in a single election, Iranian voters had only one choice to consider: their presidential candidate. Why would it take more than an hour or two to count 860 ballots per poll?  After the count, the results were then reported electronically to the Ministry of the Interior in Tehran.

http://www.counterpunch.org/amin06222009.html

The U.S. involvement:

On May 23, 2007, Brian Ross and Richard Esposito reported on ABC News: “The CIA has received secret presidential approval to mount a covert “black” operation to destabilize the Iranian government, current and former officials in the intelligence community tell ABC News.”

On May 27, 2007, the London Telegraph independently reported: “Mr. Bush has signed an official document endorsing CIA plans for a propaganda and disinformation campaign intended to destabilize, and eventually topple, the theocratic rule of the mullahs.”

A few days previously, the Telegraph reported on May 16, 2007, that Bush administration neocon warmonger John Bolton told the Telegraph that a US military attack on Iran would “be a ‘last option’ after economic sanctions and attempts to foment a popular revolution had failed.”

On June 29, 2008, Seymour Hersh reported in the New Yorker: “Late last year, Congress agreed to a request from President Bush to fund a major escalation of covert operations against Iran, according to current and former military, intelligence, and congressional sources. These operations, for which the President sought up to four hundred million dollars, were described in a Presidential Finding signed by Bush, and are designed to destabilize the country’s religious leadership.”

The protests in Tehran no doubt have many sincere participants. The protests also have the hallmarks of the CIA orchestrated protests in Georgia and Ukraine. It requires total blindness not to see this.

http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts06192009.html

One of my favourite things about Americans is the wonderfully colourful and appropriate sayings they come up with.

“Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it is raining” comes to mind in this instance.

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By freedom loving american, June 23, 2009 at 2:44 pm Link to this comment

It is so cute we are covering Iran’s election protest with such moral scrutiny. Where was the outrage when Amy Goodman and some of her staff were arrested, brutalized and charged with phony crimes that could have resulted in decades of prison; at the republican convention?  Then there were the tens of thousands that protested with no media covered and many of them are still rotting prison.

Additionally, there are millions of citizens that can not vote because we criminalize more of our citizens than any other nation and once they are criminalized most can never vote again, ever.  I wonder if there is a correlation, or would that be dismissed by our MSM/republican propaganda machine as a nutty conspiracy theory? 

Everyone knows the bush/cheney terror organizations are behind the protests and trying to get as many innocent Iranians killed as they have killed innocent Iraqis.  After all the more fighting and less oil these two nations produce; the more billions for bush/cheney/Saudi oil cartels.   

  Wouldn’t it be great to live in a country that had the freedom to protest?  Wouldn’t it be great to live in a country where one political candidate might actually be allowed the freedom to make positive changes benefiting the majority of the people not just the wealthiest?  Wouldn’t it be great to live in a country that supported governments that promoted policies that benefited the majority of the people not just a few large multinational corporations?

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By KDelphi, June 23, 2009 at 2:26 pm Link to this comment

nefesh—so you do advocate for overthrowing Iran, with violent means..if not, what it is that you are advocating?

What do people mean by “moral support”?

What is it that internet bloggers are calling for?

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By felicity, June 23, 2009 at 1:34 pm Link to this comment

cwbystache - yes, and thank you for pointing that out.

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By Virginia777, June 23, 2009 at 1:21 pm Link to this comment

and to nefesh:

you revealed your true self in your comment on the Twitter cartoon here, which I said contained racist depictions of Iranians, something Jews have been tormented with for decades.

How much sympathy, then, did YOU have for the Iranians (drawn with big noses, cruel features etc. etc)?

here was your answer:

“What is inherently racist? Because the artist exaggerated their facial features? It’s called caricature”

sympathy = vanished

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By Virginia777, June 23, 2009 at 1:11 pm Link to this comment

“war-free”?? and thats why you promote any and all wars connected to Israel here all the time?

give me a break, Sepharad, your motives are and have been, transparent.

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By Sepharad, June 23, 2009 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment

VIRGINIA777—I want my granddaughters to grow up in a war-free sane country. Not sure what you’re talking about, but to me, seeing the freedom loving people in the Iranian streets are reasons for NOT attacking or interfering with Iran, because they have their own internal BS-detectors and need no prodding from the outside, which I think my post indicated. Maybe I should have made it really simple for you. Also agree with ardee’s posts, so am not at all clear where you’re coming from (or whether you even know).

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By nefesh, June 23, 2009 at 12:44 pm Link to this comment

By Folktruther, June 23 at 3:29 pm # 

neolibcons

Please provide an intelligible one-sentence definition of this term.

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By Folktruther, June 23, 2009 at 12:29 pm Link to this comment

Apparently the “Iran Stolen Election” was only the inital kickoff for further US intervention.  Roger Cohen, the major Iran columist for the NYTimes, titled his piece today THE END OF THE BEGINNING. Dennis Ross might have been transferred to the White House to head the remainder of the campaign, with the pretesnse of negotiations with Iran being carried on by someone else. 

Dismissing the election itself with ‘numbers don’t matter any more’, much as Nefesh’s comment that ‘it isn’t about the election and never was’ Cohen states what the US considers the important question. 

“The core question of this election is must Iran stay apart from the forces of political and economic globalization…”

Like the US oil companies.  This is another indication that the basic conflict is about oil, not Zionism.  It is neolibcons, including Zionist neolibcons,  pulling the strings, and the Zionists foot soldiers merely carrying the political ball, much as the rightwing religous loonies do for the Gops. 

The US ruling class is perfectly willing to sacrifice Israel to neoliberalism which, historically, they are doing. This explains the sucide death policies of Israel; they are trapped by the US into a self-defeating policy.  But the American Zionists are perfectly willing to go along with this, those few who realize it, because their career interests are being fulfilled in the US.

But this means that Obama will be a military president, running for election on a peace program and expanding wars once elected, as Wilson, Roosevelt, Truman, and Johnson did in the past.  this diverts attention from the massive and increasing inequality and provides a basis for continuing torture, arbitrary imprisonment, spying on the population and other repression.

And the continuing massive deception of the population.  Truth is the first victim of violence, as is imposition of secrecy and truth repression.  As Ari Fleisher, Bush’s press secratary, stated; “Watch what you do, watch what you say.”

After all, there’s a war on.

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By cwbystache, June 23, 2009 at 12:11 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

No, peaceful protest did not serve Gandhi well.  It served India, and won out over the “greater empire than has been.”  Fisk must think that a small accomplishment.

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By felicity, June 23, 2009 at 11:16 am Link to this comment

It’s pretty clear after reading all these diverse comments that who’s behind the uprising and/or its eventual outcome is anybody’s guess.

Historically, it’s the bourgeois class who starts a political revolution followed by the peasant/working classes who join in later for the kill (often literally tearing the offending rulers limb-from-limb (Russian Revolution.)

For all their bellicose rhetoric, the offending Iranian leaders have got to be shaking in their boots.  Hell, tiny groups of protestors with anti- Nam war signs gathering on the public side of the fence surrounding the White House drove Johnson and then Nixon half nuts - to the point of frantic floor pacing punctuated with shouts to underlings to “get rid of them.”

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By Ed Harges, June 23, 2009 at 11:16 am Link to this comment

re: By rsmatesic, June 23 at 2:09 pm :

Very well and truly said, rsmatesic.

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By nefesh, June 23, 2009 at 11:15 am Link to this comment

By Folktruther, June 23 at 12:49 pm #

Fisk is obviously advocating violence to overthrow the regime.  The headline is SYMBOLS ARE NOT ENOUGH TO WIN THE BATTLE.  He goes on in the first sentence, “You don’t overthrow ISlamic Republics with car headlights….Peaceful protest might have served Gandhi well, but etc, etc”

Fisk is ususally a progressive force but here he is a shill for Western, and particularly, American imperialism.  As is truthdig for printing the piece.

And you advocate violence (‘resistance’) to overthrow Israel on a daily basis. At least be consistent in your approval of the use of violent means to achieve an end.

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By nefesh, June 23, 2009 at 11:09 am Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, June 23 at 12:55 pm #

As usual, EH and FT “know” the “truth” and attack anyone who challenges that—in this case, Fisk.

But Hedges holds similar views to Fisk, and it seems Pfaff is on the same page as them

So who you gonna believe? The TruthDig reporters or “The Contingent”?

1% of the time for the former, and 0% of the time for the latter. (The formers’ 1% is for this article)

smile

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By rsmatesic, June 23, 2009 at 11:09 am Link to this comment

Of course the actual vote is suspect, and likely fallen victim to substantial rigging by Ahmadinejad and his goons.  But whether that rigging was dispositive will never be known.

Pity that Mr. Fisk, who knows better, couldn’t be bothered to point out that vote rigging is the natural consequence to meddling by foreign and wholly belligerent forces, in this case, America, Great Britain, and Israel, among others.

Recall that as recently as May 2007, then-president Bush requested from Congress $400 million to destabilize the Ahmadinejad regime through covert activity, meaning, the CIA, among other players.  And as for Great Britain and Israel, their decades-long campaigns of interference Iran hardly need further proof.

After he took office, Obama quickly turned to rescinding several Bush-era policies, among them the global abortion counseling gag rule, energy tax breaks, and efforts to undermine the Freedom of Information Act.  But we’ve never heard that the Iranian destabilization program was included in Obama’s house-cleaning.  How come? 

I am sickened by the street scenes from Iran, but am having great difficulty remembering a single instance in which any politician in this country bemoaned the viciousness of police assaults against peaceful street protests outside the Republican National Convention last summer in St. Paul.  And could someone please explain how post-Tiananmen China, without ever apologizing for the blood on its hands, continued to enjoy most-favored-nation trading status with the U.S.? 

The current call to arms by our stateside goons (for the record, I do not apply either of these adjectives to Mr. Fisk) is the product of a highly selective commitment to human rights and fundamental freedoms.  But the sad truth remains that neither the U.S. nor any other foreign power has the right to complain about election results the unreliability of which these same interlopers helped usher into being.

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By Robert, June 23, 2009 at 11:05 am Link to this comment

June 23, 2009

Time to Worry

Dennis Ross Moves to the White House

By GARY LEUPP

“There was a time when the most ridiculous accusations against Iraq as prepared by the White House Iraq Group of neocon-led propagandists were accepted by the entire Washington power elite. Remember? It was not so long ago. Iraq and al-Qaeda were in cahoots and Saddam had weapons of mass destruction powerfully threatening the world. A significant minority of intelligent Americans doubted these charges, the essence of the case for war, and for anyone paying attention, they have long since been exposed as lies. But respectable politicians and leading columnists, makers of public opinion, parroted them for a certain crucial delusion-forming interval as obvious truths.

Now again we have the leadership of both political parties with much of the journalistic establishment in tow promoting what will likely be exposed in the near term as another slough of lies, this time about Iran. At the center of them is this: Iran has a nuclear weapons program threatening Israel with nuclear holocaust.

That’s a staggering allegation, and designed to be so. It’s the son of the earlier allegation born of the White House Iraq Group propaganda team: Let’s not let the “smoking gun” be a mushroom cloud over New York City. Sheer fear-mongering.

Iraq didn’t threaten New York. The U.S. threatened, invaded and occupied Iraq, slaughtering at least tens of thousands in the process.  And Iran does not threaten anyone with a nuclear weapon. It should be repeated again and again: the National Intelligence Estimate concerning the question of Iran’s nuclear program, representing the consensus of the 16 different U.S. intelligence agencies in 2007 concluded in “high confidence” that Iran does not even have an active nuclear weapons program. (The report appeared after nearly a year’s delay due to apparent obstruction by Dick Cheney’s office, the neocon headquarters).

Unfortunately, regime change in Iran is the single most urgent, outstanding item on the neocon agenda left unfulfilled after eight years of Bush-era empowerment. Its proponents refuse to allow a mere change of administrations to deflect them from their goal. Hence somehow a neocon has insinuated himself into the center of Iran policy, first as a Hillary Clinton advisor and “diplomat,” and now as an advisor to the president working for the National Security Agency.
Dennis Ross is an NIE-denier. With no real expertise on Iran or Persian linguistic competence, and no understanding of nuclear science—-but lots of experience in U.S.-Israeli relations and settler advocacy garnering him the nickname “Israel’s lawyer”—-Ross was principal author of an op-ed piece in the Wall Street Journal eight months after the NIE appeared.”

http://www.counterpunch.com/leupp06232009.html

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By KDelphi, June 23, 2009 at 11:03 am Link to this comment

“You don’t overthrow Islamic revolutions with car headlights. And definitely not with candles. Peaceful protest might have served Gandhi well, but the Supreme Leader’s Iran is not going to worry about a few thousand demonstrators on the streets, even if they do cry “Allahu Akbar” from their rooftops every night.”

PLEASE NOTE THE “YOU”

I’m not trying to parse words here, but, the key words seems to be, to me, “you”.

The only “concern’ shown for Iranians in the past has been whether they will get nukes or not, and use them on Israel—or interfere in Iraq—lets be honest here!. I find this new-found “concern” questionable, to say the least. More people died in Iraq and Af-Pak, on the same day, at US hands—no one seems to be wearing ribbons over that. Or even reporting it. Did everyone just get so used to it or what? 

I can understand why people in Iran might think the US would intervene—we usually do. But, we have to stop. We cant and should not “free” people anymore—ask Iraq.

If people are NOT “calling for violence” or invasion, what is it that they are calling for? “Moral ” support, even though they admit that symbols do nothing? I dont understand, if its not a call to arms, what this is??

Isnt it possible, as usually happens, that people who want a “regime change” in Iran “encouraged” this “protest” and, now, it has gotten out of hand? Didnt any “liberals” note who seemed “too ready” to call for US “intervention”?

I understand that we in the US tend to wish to see every act of rebelling as akin to
“US Revolutionary War with UK”—buts its simply not.

All the press has to do , in most cases, is “cry freedom” and, if youre not down for the count, yu must not “care”

The Iranic Islamic Republic is, big surprise, very brutal. There is much brutality in North Korea, and much more where we “went in to help”—Iraq, Af-Pak—I still say that, if the US wants to foment “revolution”—revolution begins at home.

Lets lead by example and, at least, give some moral support to people here, living on the streets..

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By Virginia777, June 23, 2009 at 10:31 am Link to this comment

and to Sepharad:

do you want your granddaughter to have a sane, healthy Country to grow up in?

or do you want (as you have been facilitating for a long time now here) a war-ruled (and therefore repressive) Country with a bankrupt treasury?

whose side are you on, Grandmother??

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By Virginia777, June 23, 2009 at 10:27 am Link to this comment

and to Robert Fisk,

you have earned my permanent distrust.

(check out Ardee’s comment if you don’t understand why)

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By Sepharad, June 23, 2009 at 10:27 am Link to this comment

With youngest granddaughter squirming on my lap instead of getting sleepy and the other banging her Bedu tambourine on my knee, post will be brief, possibly misspelled.

*Am I hallucinating, or in some time past did not Ali Akbar Rafsanjani literally extend a hand to Bush that would have normalized FRIENDLY relations with the U.S. and made some of the changes the people on the street are longing for, and didn’t Bush slap that offered hand?

*Symbolism may not be enough to liberalize the society, but it may have some desirable effects.

1)give pause to whoever calls for “clampdowns” (on communitcations w/outide world, on women’s behavior, on wht books may be read), because this people-bashing is not the image of Iran its leaders want to convey;

2)the very presence of so many freedom-seeking Iranians on the streets at great risk should certainly give pause to any country contem[plating attackiing Iran fr any reason, includinbg nuclear. Are these the people the U.S. and Israel want to radicalize or drive them to nutty religious extremes they obviously feel no affinity for? These are the intelligent moderates, otherwise they wouldn’t be out there in the streets, and if there are X number visible how many more are there who stayed hgome? I vote to give the moderates a lot of time, before bombing their country becaus0e we’re afraid the guys who believe paradise is better than life might bet a finger on the nuclear trigger. I’m (almost) sure any person of intelligennce in the general mideast neighborhood wsould noit fire a nuke at Iswrael. Rafsanjani wouldn’t, and probably not Moussavi, and the big Kahemeine probably won’t let Ahmajinedad either, as K. seems career and power oriented rather that a nut. Wanting a weapon to projeect power is not using it. 

3)May sadly be true that it wil take more than one set of demonstrawtions to move for a bit of reform, let alone a revolution. If this happens two or three times every year over specific issues, and continues year after year, they might aachieve a little here, a little there, and a cumulative affect could graduall change things inside the country.

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By Virginia777, June 23, 2009 at 10:26 am Link to this comment

Its NOT a “stolen election”!

It is so discouraging to see our Media playing the lies like this, including and especially the “liberal” Huffo Post and Alternet.

why have they become arms of the war machine?

do we need lies from them as well??

Iranian Elections: The ‘Stolen Elections’ Hoax
http://www.countercurrents.org/petras200609.htm

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By Inherit The Wind, June 23, 2009 at 9:55 am Link to this comment

As usual, EH and FT “know” the “truth” and attack anyone who challenges that—in this case, Fisk.

But Hedges holds similar views to Fisk, and it seems Pfaff is on the same page as them

So who you gonna believe? The TruthDig reporters or “The Contingent”?

(a no-brainer for anyone not in “TC”)

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By Folktruther, June 23, 2009 at 9:49 am Link to this comment

Beerdoctor, Ed.  Fisk is obviously advocating violence to overthrow the regime.  The headline is SYMBOLS ARE NOT ENOUGH TO WIN THE BATTLE.  He goes on in the first sentence, “You don’t overthrow ISlamic Republics with car headlights….Peaceful protest might have served Gandhi well, but etc, etc”

Fisk is ususally a progressive force but here he is a shill for Western, and particularly, American imperialism.  As is truthdig for printing the piece.

Huffpo and Alternet have printed a piece arguing that Iran demonstrators need more guns.  The US, and war Progressives, are, in effect, adovacting civil war. Based on the Big Lie that a landslide election is a “Stolen Election.”

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By Nomas Kakita, June 23, 2009 at 9:17 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Well, well Mr. Fisk, your call to arms is pretty sleek. Maybe the rumors are true about you and British Intel. Well I have to give you some credit, at least you didn’t use Chatham House reports to justify your call to arms. For those of you in America, Chatham House is a UK think tank, like the CIA funded Rand Corp.

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By Ed Harges, June 23, 2009 at 8:33 am Link to this comment

re: By thebeerdoctor, June 23 at 11:08 am:

Beerdoctor, I don’t think that Fisk is advocating violent intervention by outsiders, but I do think he has bought into the false notion that Mousavi is some kind of good guy that we should want to win. Please see my post below about who this guy really is.

I also think Fisk is wrong to imply that the Mullahs’ claims of foreign intervention (including terrorism) in Iran are totally false. The fact of this intervention is **not** an excuse to label all the protesters “terrorists” and mow them down; nevertheless, the charges of foreign interference are well founded in fact.

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By thebeerdoctor, June 23, 2009 at 8:08 am Link to this comment

I notice that many on this thread totally misread Robert Fisk’s article. Fisk is not on Mousavi’s side. He is merely describing the principal actors in this rather sordid political drama; or is it the readers can not appreciate his nuanced use of language? Nor does Fisk advocate violence, or is that readers think that organizing a protest “in a more coherent way” equals violence? If you think Robert Fisk is an advocate for violence, then you know next to nothing about this brilliant reporter.

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By Ed Harges, June 23, 2009 at 7:21 am Link to this comment

Fisk has really drunk the Kool-Aid. We’re supposed to hope that this wonderful Mousavi can “win”, this guy who led the purges of leftists and Jews from Iranian universities in the 1980s — this guy who was pre-selected by the Mullahs, is pledged to continue the Islamic republic, and refuses to end uranium enrichment even for peaceful purposes (which for crazy Israel and the US neocons is reason alone to subject Iran to a massive bombing that will certainly kill tens of thousands and send the world economy off a cliff).

Fisk, wake up. The neocons are pretending to love Mousavi only because they love to claim that whoever is in charge in Iran is ‘The Problem’, so ‘We Have No Partner For Peace’. It’s exactly what the Israelis do to the Palestinians. “Gee, if only you crazy Iranians had elected that other guy, then we wouldn’t have to bomb you!”

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By NYCartist, June 23, 2009 at 7:16 am Link to this comment

My read of Fisk is that he is linking the violence of the gov’t now, threats to do as they have done before (his recollection of history; he’s been in the region for over two and half decades (and often on http://www.democracynow.org). 

I wondered as I read it: (as someone else noted, but not for NYC), in NYC you need a permit to demonstrate, hold a rally.

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By Leefeller, June 23, 2009 at 7:00 am Link to this comment

Is it possible the differences in peoples views in Iran, may have to do with those scraping a meager living and those with time on their hands?  Hard working poor usually do not make revolutions for they are busy from dawn to sunset scraping a living,  while those with time on their hands can develop grievances of protest among themselves?

My take is the Iranian people are like all people, who have hopes and desires for a good life. Manipulators of unknown origin, may have promoted this or it may be a real revolution? Every time the USA involves itself and meddles in other countries fates, it seems to turn to crap.

Wonder who’s hand prints are all over this?

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By Folktruther, June 23, 2009 at 5:50 am Link to this comment

Fisk here is suggesting the need for violence to overthrow the Islamic revolution.  I would think that means that that’s what the US has in mind.  But this isn’t possible unless the US has support among the Iran military as well as the mullahs.  If so, then this color revolution in Iran will be fought by civil war.

Rafsanjani is the leading neoliberal of the “Reformists.”  He is now organizing among the mullahs, and he has significant support.  He therefore probably has support among the military as well.  But if a military revolt occurred, the masses of workers and peasants would support the Ahmadinejad side, so the Reformist could only win by a mass slaughter.  The US would support this has it has everywhere else, but would the rank and file Reformists?  There is obviously great contempt for a ‘alsm’ government or ‘potato’ government among the Reformists, but would it go so far as a mass sluaghter.  IT appears that Fisk would.  The idea would be to privatize the government corporations and give them away to US supporters, as occurred in Russia and Iraq. At the cost of enormous blood and suffering.

Would Obama?  Clearly the Zionists accept and support the Big Lie of a “Stolen Election” and Obama is surrounded by them.  Both Biden and Clinton support a harder policy.  But the whole world knows that Ahmadinejad won the election and if mass slaughter occurred based on a Big Lie to install neoliberals, Obama would have blood on his hands for the rest of his career.  But Zionists neoliberals put him in office and he may feel he has no choice.

Iran may, or may not, be on the verge of class civil war.  China and Russia are strongly against it.  It’s hard to know what is going to happen now.  It may depend on whether the American Zionists win the truth war in the US.

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By idarad, June 23, 2009 at 5:19 am Link to this comment

Mr. Fisk again reminds us that it is not simply a matter of finding the fundamentalist strain and attacking it as the power to dislodge. The Persian, Arab, Indonesian factions that pray to allah then prey on “their” people are not so much different than the Americas, Austrians, Guatemalan, Mexican christians who pray to god then prey on “their” people or that much different the the Israeli jews who pray to “their” god then prey on their people. 

The only real tangible connection is not religion or the fanatics, but the retention of power no matter the stakes.  Iran’s supreme leader is willing to destroy his country, even his people for the ability to retain power. He disregards the koran, the supposed base of his power to retain control. The power class in the US is not much different, the supreme commander is the monied class who, as in Iran selects the president, and if necessary steals elections to maintain power.  And is not concerned if they destroy the constitution or the people to do it.

Until people can take their governments into control, and unfortunately there are very few examples of this happening in a short term (revolutionary) time, those in power will continue to reign with terror.  It is in fact those states who do not simply sponsor state terrorist, they rule by the use of terror on their own.

These will be difficult times in the short term, but if we have a chance to see a world that can cooperatively live, these are the growing pains we must endure - and ones we must foster!

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, June 23, 2009 at 5:16 am Link to this comment

We here in a America should hold a good old fashioned gun drive.  Estimates put the number of privately owned guns in the US at about 200 million.  If you add the military and law-enforcement to that total, it goes up to 350 million.  If we could just get America to donate 10% of its guns to the cause, we could seed the entire nation of Iran with enough firepower to overthrow anybody.  And we’d still have plenty left over to keep our own government from getting cute.

Let what is happening in Iran be a lesson to all of you.  Throwing stone won’t get you nothing but dead but if our own government tried to crackdown on a protest with acts of violence, chances are there’d be plenty of whack-job Johnnies out there shooting back.  Yessiree, the second the guns are out of the equation, the Fundies move in and try to tell you who you can sleep with.

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By thebeerdoctor, June 23, 2009 at 4:52 am Link to this comment

You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you… well, very frustrated. A veteran correspondent of the Middle East, Robert Fisk has been witness to some very awful stuff. When he mentions the 1988 slaughter of the opposition in Iran, namely those who refused to buy into the theocratic drivel that forces everyone to be “religious”, whether they choose to or not, is simply a reminder that Iran is a brutal country. And despite all the spiritual trappings, these are nevertheless men capable of savage behavior in order to preserve their seats in the political power hierarchy, even their Supreme Leader is not above the fray.
For those who believe that all of this is some United States orchestrated event, which some will see that trouble is merely an opportunity for other nefarious purposes… that is only part of the story. A recent article in the Wall Street Journal concerning the use of monitoring information technology in Iran, reveals a government worried, indeed paranoid by the free flow of ideas on the Internet. Like mainland China, Iran is still not well versed in the truly effective censorship control mastered in the corporate United States. Overt crackdowns, “take them out to be shot” actions continue to present image perception problems for the regime.
Still, this is an Iranian political matter. All the great concerned for Iranians now, by both the left and right wing camps, is incredibly selective and hollow.

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By ardee, June 23, 2009 at 4:52 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind, June 23 at 7:15 am

If one wishes, one could orate endlessly on the reason certain posters always show up on certain threads, or why certain posts are deleted and certain web sites denied linking. Or one could question the reasons some distort the intent of the words of others, and pretty blatantly at that.

While there seems to be evidence, even ample evidence, that increasing manipulation occurs on the internet political forii, and I am far from a conspiracy theorist I assure you, the question remains what does the individual do about it.

I try , really hard sometimes, to glean the lies from the facts of some posters efforts here and try to declaim those lies with truth. Others are simply expressing honest opinion and deserve such in return. In extreme cases there are posters who simply deserve silence in response to ridiculous positions and refusal to debate with honesty.

My opinion only.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 23, 2009 at 4:15 am Link to this comment

Yes, RD, a very difficult article.  Yet it carries the same thread that Chris Hedges’ most recent article carries and that Mr. Fish’s cartoons carry: That this is a legitimate grass-roots, home-grown protest over a stolen election.  The ONE thing that Iranis could count on was their elections were pretty fair, and that even if candidates were “disqualified” beforehand, the voting and counting were as fair as ours, and fairer than the 2000 and 2004 US elections.

But “The Contingent” is in their cognitive dissonance, ignoring this in the articles here one TD.  Look at Hedges article and read what “TC” posts—psy-ops, black-ops, CIA/Mossad provocations—the whole Ludlum thing that works in the Bourne novels, but not in REAL analysis of REAL world events.

So they ignore the writer, heap insults on me (and others who dare to challenge “TC”) and rant and rave about their world view as it becomes more and more obvious it is, in a word, wrong.  Simply wrong.

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By godistwaddle, June 23, 2009 at 3:57 am Link to this comment

No, and Americans won’t get change by asking the authorities for permission to demonstrate.  As Washington and Jefferson knew, it takes firearms, at least, to gain liberty.

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By ardee, June 23, 2009 at 3:56 am Link to this comment

A very difficult article on which to comment. It offers darn little optimism or even knowledgeable commentary on the birthing of revolution.

By declaiming against the effectiveness of hundreds of thousands in the streets, as Mr. Fisk seems to do here, he opens the door to interventionism in the struggle for democracy, if that is even what is going on there.

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